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Posted By: inpain Intimacy after affair - 07/31/12 06:56 PM
It is just over a year since I found a letter written by my husband to a w he used to work with on our laptop. It was written as though they'd been having a pa but even after all this time he insists it was only talking and doesn't even see it as an ea. I've tried counselling but had to stop after 4 months as I could no longer afford it. I mostly feel OK day to day but the trouble is I just can't bare the thought of being intimate with h - even kissing! I'm really wondering if this is normal this long after discovering it all or if it is a sign that we should go our separate ways after all. I'd love to hear from someone who has been through a similar situation and stayed together!
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/01/12 06:30 AM
Hi I saw that you did not get a response. I find that this is a difficult topic for me, but I will offer some advice.


What has your husband offered to you for piercing and for recovery?

Is it lacking?

Can the both of you communicate ?

Has he worked to heal you ?

Perhaps your thoughts are around the fact that you believe he lied to you about the EA/PA.

Can you over come this or is this an issue that you feel needs to be addressed between you two?

I am thinking it is an issue.... so does your husband know this?

If it turns out to be a PA.... Does this change anything ?

If it does not what do you think is holding back your H from talking ?
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/01/12 09:58 PM
Hi Chatterbug

Thanks for responding - I find it a difficult topic too!

H did go to counselling with me a few times and on his own when the it was suggested by her. He has been very up and down with the recovery process to be honest. He is trying really, really hard to be better with the kids which was one thing I wasn't happy with regardless of his EA/PA and is being very patient but then sometimes has a blow out and says he's leaving because he can't take it being ~%~% anymore! This obviously sets me back big time as I just don't feel secure! He is always very apologetic after he's calmed down and says he didn't mean it and said it in anger but even so it hurts.

As far as healing me goes - no I don't think he has. He has basically taken the stance from the beginning (backed up by the counsellor) that I have to heal myself and that there isn't anything he can do as he cannot prove he hasn't had PA.

I've tried to overcome it on my own and I've tried to get him involved by talking it through and asking what he thinks we should do to get past this but he isn't great at discussions. I've asked him to read DB but he just says he doesn't see how the answer can be in a book despite the fact that I used it successfully when he left me 6 years ago!

Yes, my H does know that it is all an issue.

I'm not really sure if it would change anything if it turned out to be a PA - I'm very confused in that area.

I talk to my H about it all and all of my feelings so there isn't a problem with talking to him - although he doesn't always give a great response - it's just that it has been over a year now and I guess I feel like we should be moving forward from the "just cohabiting parents" phase we have been in since I found out and more towards being a proper R again.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/01/12 11:19 PM
Have you talked with your doctor to see if there is an issue with hormones or something else ?

Just to rule out the chemical aspects of desire.

Personally I could not even handle an accidental brush from her hand back in the bomb and recovery stages. It was one of my reasons for moving on separately. As it is a very important part of a relationship.


But for you I think it is more about the fact that your H is not truthful to you and has not been for years. And you are not sure if it just you that has had zero sex the past year. So no trust. No being vulnerable. I would just assume that it has been PA back in 2006 and the past few years as well. As he had it set up to go away for a few days a week. At his age to not have sex in a year is not normal , unless he is a narcissist or has a physical issue. Is he still away all the time ?

I am sure all this is floating around in the back of your head. You have worked very hard at saving your marriage for six years now. That is something to be extremely proud of. But perhaps sometimes you cannot fix what is broken. And it seems that truth and trust have left your marriage which are two of the foundations for desire and intimacy.
Posted By: verycrazy Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/02/12 07:47 PM
Hi, IP, I was wondering how you were. Sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with moving forward. I still to this day, do not know if my H and ow had a PA, or if it was EA. He said it was not PA, but correspondence makes me think otherwise. So, I felt I had to either let things stay as they were, or let him keep his lie (if it is one)to himself and move forward as if I DID know everything. As time has gone on, I have not found anything to make me feel he is backsliding. No contact, nothing. So, for me, to let it go, as much as I wanted not to, was a good choice. He did slip up a number of times over the years, before he straightened up. Like chatterbox, I could not stand his touch or his kiss, made me want to scrub myself. He is being very good, now, though, thank God.

Have you thought of telling your H that he is not helping things along as you would wish? Ask him why he won't come out with the complete truth. If he is still contacting ow in any way, what are you prepared to do? Maybe you should become your own detective, so you can find out just exactly what IS going on. And, is he reading your body language? That you are grossed out by him right now?

I hope you can figure out how to do what is best for you, I know you don't want to have your M fall apart like this.

vc
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/12/12 11:34 PM
I haven't checked with the Dr no but I am pretty sure it is all because I don't know for sure if he's telling the truth. Just as you describe I cannot bare it when he even puts his hand on my shoulder during a conversation frown.

He doesn't work away now no, he hasn't done for about 19 months now. I'm pretty sure nothing has been happening since that time it is just the fact that I don't know what is real or a lie from before.

You're right, I question myself every day and am constantly thinking that it is just too broken, or rather I am just too broken hearted to fix this anymore, I think maybe he has just let me down once too often but I am scared of anything else I suppose.
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/12/12 11:41 PM
Hi VC. I admire you so much and wish I could take a leaf out of your book and do as you have done. Our situations seem so similar with both our H's denying a PA but having correspondence that points to a PA. How did you make that decision to move forward. Each time I think that I will try to do that my head screams at me that I don't believe him and he'll quite innocently touch me and I cringe. I am so devastated, I wanted so badly to get past this and not break up our family but it just seems to be too big a stumbling block for me.

I have told him over and over that if he just told me the truth it would be easier for me to forgive and put it behind me and each time he insists that he has told me the truth and hasn't done what I think he's done. Yes, he knows that I am grossed out by him touching me in any way and is gutted. He looks so sad when he sees my response which makes me feel so bad. I just feel like this nightmare will never end. I feel like I'm living a lie, pretending to everyone that we're in a happy marriage when all the time I'm thinking I should get out, but then I see the children's faces when he comes home from work and how could I destroy that for them by asking for a D, despite it being down to something he has done. I wish I could just erase my memory.

ip
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/13/12 01:03 AM
Perhaps crisis to force the issue.

Staying where you are is not good for your health.
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/24/12 03:36 AM
You're right it's not good for my health, I know and yet I cannot seem to do anything other than stay here in misery. I'm scared to leave in case it's the wrong decision and I'm scared to stay because I just hate how I feel every day. I still feel so raw from all this - I'm not sure that's normal after 13 months? to still feel absolute heart breaking pain every day. I feel like I love him and want to be with him but I just cannot bring myself to be "normal". I've tried acting as if and I just feel empty and angry again when I do that and I think I've been this way so long now that he isn't actually really that bothered if we break up anyway - so that leaves me feeling insecure, on top of already feeling insecure from what he's done and it is just the biggest hole and the biggest mess and I can't get out and I just despair. I just want someone to beam me up so I don't have to think about any of this anymore and feel no pain.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/27/12 09:33 PM
so there you are. inlimbo.


So why not change it.

you need to detatch and realize that you have some issues with dependency and work on that. So that you know that no matter what happens you will be fine. As you have the most reliable person in the world watching out for you. Yourself.

Then you can deal with the issues of the lack of truth from your husband as an equal in the equation. Or perhaps from a position of strength. As you will have the strength to see it thru.

Take Care.
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/28/12 09:20 PM
Thank you for your reply chatterbug.

I've heard of dependency issues but didn't really know what it meant. Having looked it up on a couple of sites I can see it completely describes me in every way so thank you for pointing that out.

Now I just have to find out what on earth to do about fixing that frown. Detaching is going to be hard, with two young children and totally financially dependent on my H and we're still in the same house.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/28/12 10:03 PM
You can detach and work on yourself and take care of your family.

Parallel paths.

You are working on yourself so you can improve yourself.

This in turn will make you a stronger person.

Which in turn will make you a stronger mother.

Which in turn has the ability of making you stronger for the relationship.

But you see its the first one that is the most important.

As all the relationships you have around you will improve.

You can detach and still enjoy conversations with your husband. You can plan family outings. You can do all those wonderful family things. But at the same time look to join some community groups with woman who are looking to work on improving themselves. Could be a church group or a community group. But make sure it is with women who have walked your steps and ones that are walking in your steps.

And take some time to have a hobby that is for yourself.

Such as running.

It is an amazing time for you. You know you have to improve yourself. So go about it with the determination and passion and skills that you have.

Overcome your doubts.

Your children will reap the benefits and you will be able to get to a point where you can engage in equal conversation about your marriage without any fear of loss. As you will know that no matter what. You are putting in the effort.
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Intimacy after affair - 08/28/12 10:30 PM
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
You can detach and work on yourself and take care of your family.

Parallel paths.

You are working on yourself so you can improve yourself.

This in turn will make you a stronger person.

Which in turn will make you a stronger mother.

Which in turn has the ability of making you stronger for the relationship.

But you see its the first one that is the most important.

As all the relationships you have around you will improve.

You can detach and still enjoy conversations with your husband. You can plan family outings. You can do all those wonderful family things. But at the same time look to join some community groups with woman who are looking to work on improving themselves. Could be a church group or a community group. But make sure it is with women who have walked your steps and ones that are walking in your steps.

And take some time to have a hobby that is for yourself.

Such as running.

It is an amazing time for you. You know you have to improve yourself. So go about it with the determination and passion and skills that you have.

Overcome your doubts.

Your children will reap the benefits and you will be able to get to a point where you can engage in equal conversation about your marriage without any fear of loss. As you will know that no matter what. You are putting in the effort.





This is an amazing post!!!
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/04/12 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: inpain
You're right it's not good for my health, I know and yet I cannot seem to do anything other than stay here in misery. I'm scared to leave in case it's the wrong decision and I'm scared to stay because I just hate how I feel every day. I still feel so raw from all this - I'm not sure that's normal after 13 months? to still feel absolute heart breaking pain every day. I feel like I love him and want to be with him but I just cannot bring myself to be "normal". I've tried acting as if and I just feel empty and angry again when I do that and I think I've been this way so long now that he isn't actually really that bothered if we break up anyway - so that leaves me feeling insecure, on top of already feeling insecure from what he's done and it is just the biggest hole and the biggest mess and I can't get out and I just despair. I just want someone to beam me up so I don't have to think about any of this anymore and feel no pain.


If you have Michele's DR book, read the chapter on infidelity. It talks about forgiveness, and it sounds like you have not forgiven your husband. The chapter also describes how forgiving does not mean forgetting. The issue shouldn't be forgotten because there are lessons to be learned from it. But you really need to forgive him for YOUR benefit, to relieve your own suffering. Your relationship cannot be rebuilt until you forgive, and if you keep going the way you are then it's eventually going to push your H out the door. Good luck!
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/12/12 01:20 PM
Thank you for such a thoughtful and helpful reply.

I already do much of this though, I positively throw myself into taking care of the house and children and ensuring we do lovely things together, I have a hobby that I love and I am about to start a college course which will gain me some new friends I hope.

I think maybe I need to face the fact that it is in fact over as he has never been prepared to put in the time and effort to heal the hurts that he caused and I'm at the point where I don't see why I should bother to do so on my own any more.
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/12/12 01:26 PM
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do have Michele's book and it helped a great deal the first time round - in fact it is the only reason there was a second time round!!

I have read and re read and read again the chapter on infedility and while I understand it and can see it is the only way forward I cannot do it. I'm not even really sure why. I think perhaps you do need to feel that you have all of the facts before you can forgive and I just don't believe his version of what happened so maybe this is why I can't forgive him. He's also not dealt with any of the "aftermath" in a way that makes me feel secure so this adds to the things I need to forgive him for.

You're right, I think I've more or less pushed him out the door at this point. It is sad that that is the case but I do feel I've tried much harder than he ever did to heal it all when, in my opinion, he should have been the one healing it as he caused the whole mess. I hate how bitter he has made me, I just can't imagine feeling "in love" with him ever again at this point. How do you love someone who hurts you and makes you so angry all the time?? I know you will probably say by forgiving!!! I don't know how to do it, and even though I am going to lose everything I have I still can't do it, I don't think he is worthy of it. cry
Posted By: DaddyLongShanks Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/12/12 02:55 PM
Originally Posted By: inpain
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do have Michele's book and it helped a great deal the first time round - in fact it is the only reason there was a second time round!!

I have read and re read and read again the chapter on infedility and while I understand it and can see it is the only way forward I cannot do it. I'm not even really sure why. I think perhaps you do need to feel that you have all of the facts before you can forgive and I just don't believe his version of what happened so maybe this is why I can't forgive him. He's also not dealt with any of the "aftermath" in a way that makes me feel secure so this adds to the things I need to forgive him for.

You're right, I think I've more or less pushed him out the door at this point. It is sad that that is the case but I do feel I've tried much harder than he ever did to heal it all when, in my opinion, he should have been the one healing it as he caused the whole mess. I hate how bitter he has made me, I just can't imagine feeling "in love" with him ever again at this point. How do you love someone who hurts you and makes you so angry all the time?? I know you will probably say by forgiving!!! I don't know how to do it, and even though I am going to lose everything I have I still can't do it, I don't think he is worthy of it. cry


If you where to consider it, is allowing the WAS to go "back and forth" OK? Don't you think that the relationship should be in a state of repair and if this is the case, wouldn't you both get tested for VD before starting back up the sexual portion of the relationship?
Posted By: verycrazy Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/12/12 04:34 PM
I wonder, IP, if you have ever though about counseling from a preacher or someone like that. Someone who can help you through the healing and forgiving. Being able to see things the way God sees them is what helped me through it all. Seeing me become a better Christian is one of the things that convicted my H in his heart. Knowing I was going to follow God, no matter what happened, no revenge affair no telling everybody he and I know, or anything like that, he saw the improvement in me, and decided he wanted me, not some cheap female. And, no, your H is not worthy of forgiveness, but we do it anyway, because God says if we do not forgive, neither will He forgive us. I had to forgive a stepfather who molested me as a child, which wasn't easy, and forgiving my H, believe it or not, was almost as hard as that.

Now, he is being what a H should be. He sometimes slips up, but not often. I have had surgery a few weeks ago, and he has been taking care of me really well, going to the Dr. appts, cooking and all that.

Even if you can't get your H to go to counseling with you, consider going alone, you really need someone to talk to like that. I am really glad to hear you are starting a college course, that's really great! I hope you enjoy it, and make lots of friends.

Oh, chatterbug, sorry I referred to you as chatterbox. smile

vc
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/12/12 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: inpain

I have read and re read and read again the chapter on infedility and while I understand it and can see it is the only way forward I cannot do it. I'm not even really sure why.


I totally understand, it is not at all an easy thing to do. Even though I'm a LBS now, twice during my M my W has breached my trust in a major way in financial issues. I told her both times it was in every way a betrayal of my trust not much different than an affair would have been. I did forgive her both times, but it was a very difficult decision to come to (especially the 2nd time). But once I did, it really did help me to restore inner peace.

Originally Posted By: inpain

You're right, I think I've more or less pushed him out the door at this point. It is sad that that is the case but I do feel I've tried much harder than he ever did to heal it all when, in my opinion, he should have been the one healing it as he caused the whole mess.


I think most of us can relate to what you're saying here. We spouses on these forums are doing ALL the work to reconcile and the wayward spouses do little or nothing other than drop the bomb and head out the door. They create the crisis and then run. But that's DB and it's why we're here. To support each other during our journeys through these crises that are not of our making.

Originally Posted By: inpain
I hate how bitter he has made me, I just can't imagine feeling "in love" with him ever again at this point. How do you love someone who hurts you and makes you so angry all the time?? I know you will probably say by forgiving!!!


I think this is a bridge we all have to cross at some point, we spend so much time trying to bring our spouses back that if/when it finally happens and the crisis is over, suddenly we have to stop, take stock and decide if we really want them back after all. Some decide they don't. And that's not about forgiveness, you can forgive him and still not ever really love him again. But love truly is a choice, we can choose to love whoever we want. You just have to decide if you can choose to love him or if you need to move on. You've probably built a wall around yourself to protect yourself from the pain he has caused, and to love him you have to tear that wall down, but that will make you vulnerable again. You have to decide whether he's worth that.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/13/12 02:29 PM
So now you have forgiveness... what do you have to not repeat a 3rd time.... More forgiveness?


Inpain mentioned that not knowing the truth is a deal breaker for her. This is what she is struggling with.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Intimacy after affair - 09/13/12 05:31 PM
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
So now you have forgiveness... what do you have to not repeat a 3rd time.... More forgiveness?

Inpain mentioned that not knowing the truth is a deal breaker for her. This is what she is struggling with.


Perhaps I misunderstand, but reading the posts I see no forgiveness. She's still bitter over a PA that she perceives may have happened years ago although her husband denies it. It sounds like this bitterness and lack of forgiveness is preventing her from feeling anything towards her husband. You say that not knowing the truth is a deal breaker for her, but her husband insists he has told her the truth and it is possible that he has.

Inpain, you will continue to be "in pain" as long as you can't let this go whether you remain with your H or not. Personally I always like to see marriages saved, so I would suggest finding a way to forgive your husband (but not forget) and try and build a better relationship in the future. But let him know that if it happens again there will be no 3rd chance. Give him boundaries and let him know that crossing one will result in the marriage ending immediately and be ready to follow through (this is discussed in DR). The alternative is to assume he's lying and end the M now rather than later. In the end all we can do is make suggestions, you know your sitch better than us. I wish you luck whichever way you go.
Posted By: pearlharbr Re: Intimacy after affair - 10/09/12 12:28 AM
inpain, I'm not sure if you're still around here but I hope you are and that you're doing better.

First of all, chatter's advise about detaching is excellent. I know that I had a hard time fully understanding the concept until I read this article . I hope it will help you too.

Secondly, I totally understand where you're coming from. There's no way I would have been able to move forward with my then-BF if he hadn't been completely honest with me and did everything I asked of him in order to heal. Not knowing the truth was not an option for me.

I have a friend here who says that people usually admit to one level below what they actually did. Seeing that your H will barely even admit to an EA then I think your gut is correct that he had a PA. You can either assume this is the truth moving forward or you can ask your H to take a lie detector test. Then both of you will know that everything is out in the open or it's a jumping off point for further conversations.

Another thing you can do is put a transparency plan in place. My BF gave me all his passwords so I could check his email accounts and credit card statements whenever I wanted. And check them I did, especially in the first few months of reconciliation. I also asked him to call me when he left work every day so I knew that he wasn't sneaking off to meet OW before coming home. He actually still does this three years later.

He didn't want to go to counseling because we went a couple times while he was having the A and thought the counselor would beat him up for not admitting it before. Instead we worked through the book Not "Just Friends" and I highly recommend it. It brought up several issues that we had never discussed before and shed light on the hows and whys of behaviors that both of us needed to change.

Yes, I had a hard time being intimate with him at first. I wouldn't let him touch me at all at first and then when I warmed up it was still slow going. I had a couple episodes when I started crying and we had to stop and talk about what was going on. I know I wouldn't have even gotten that far if I didn't know that he was doing everything he could to make me feel safe.

It took a long time for me to forgive him. It was hard and painful and I wasn't sure I'd ever get there. So I understand how hard it must be for you when you don't even sense that he was sorry for how much he hurt you.
Posted By: nero Re: Intimacy after affair - 10/18/12 08:16 PM
hey hi-

i just happened to read your last several posts. i've got a mlc h, pretty sure anyway. he's cheating away & has been for how long- i do not know. i always trusted completely and utterly- til finding out about ea - now, unfortunately i don't trust one word out of his mouth- nothing at all. it's pitiful. i share your mortification at how icky it is on a daily basis - and like you, i want to get "un stuck" - but am unsure still (1 yr found out about ea (s) for sure) (i'm thinkinf he was doing it all for three or 4 yrs before that. ow in other town(s). it's sickning isn't it?

anyway- he still sees her- i hate it absolutely. when he is not around me- he makes me sick. he is lots nicer- he thinks he can't (as in HE cannot) have sex with me. i think really- his guilt prevents him. i think he's afraid to try even- who the heck knows- i think i should initiate because it would be a great "healer" - possibly. i can't do it- i can't even think about it. i feel like i don't know this guy- so who the heck wants to with a wierd stranger? it's impossible without my brain being engaged and caring about this person. so , i know your quandry. can't go forward- can't go back- don't want to make a tragic mistake while i'm too raw & crazy- but can't stand it as it is.

i just wanted to say i understand & am there too- seems impossible nearly every day- but then i manage for one more day to make it thru the day and not run away totally. i'mnot sure why any more- i've KNOWN for 1.25 yr. I've speculate that it's been 3-4 yrs actually having affair- maybe some years before that e-mail affair. it's really incredibly disgusting to say this out loud i feel- but there you have it. my life has turned into jerry springer- i guess it happens to all sorts of decent people.

hope you find a way to cope- or an answer for you- or certainty or something. hope i do too- just wanted to say you're not alone. who ever would have imagined ending up here?

oh well- alive and healthy so far- so got that going for me. it takes it's toll - good luck- someone told me - "you can alwasy leave tomorrow". i've thought it a million gazillion times- i can always run away tomorrow- i guess whatever gets you thru one more day- one more nite-

someone else on this forum mlc - said view it as an automobile accident. it happened- no denying it. treat it like a car crash- stop the bleeding- address the wounds - oh hell- now that i'm trying to say it i can't remember exactly and can't find my original thread where it is-

anyway- point is- try and stop the bleeding- worry about rehab, etc. later. it helped somehow - it sure did happen and there's no "backs". accept that - and begin in the smallest of ways to move forward - even if it's only "stopping the bleeding" somehow- and taking the next breath -
Posted By: inpain Re: Intimacy after affair - 06/21/13 09:03 PM
Wow! Thank you both for your incredible in depth posts! You both say exactly what is in my head that I find difficult to express - I feel exactly the way you describe. I've been plodding along for all these months, pretending it's getting better I suppose, I don't really know. I think I know there's no way back anymore - not back to before it all happened - I already knew that was impossible - but now I feel there is no way back to actually loving him. It is almost 2 years to the day and I'm sitting crying, on my own after yet another argument about it and us both kind of agreeing it would be better to go our separate ways now. In one breath he says he doesn't want to and in the next breath he says he just can't stand any more of this. I feel dead inside. There is just nothing. I read what everyone says on here about forgiveness etc and I just don't know how it is done. His actions have destroyed my life, forever. I know some will say to me, probably quite rightly, that I have destroyed my own life by not forgiving. Believe me, I would if I could. For 2 years I've pondered nothing else but how to do it - read about how to do it - asked people how to do it and still I cannot do it. I just wish I could start my whole life over again. I'm so grateful to all of you who have tried to help, you are all amazing, thank you.
Posted By: darkhair Re: Intimacy after affair - 07/09/13 11:29 AM
Nero dear, that's exactly what I'm feeling too: try and try and try again to forgive, put the red sign in front of my eyes when I start thinking again and again at the ow which I think is not part of my h's life anymore, changed myself for real, but still cannot move on, one day still think about leaving and the next one thinking I'll begin to heal somehow.
Some people say they managed, I didn't. Maybe we'll never do.
Don't know what to do. I read the stories here and that helps me a lot, but I know in my soul that I'm not moving on in my life, just destroying myself day after day.
Posted By: KarenR Re: Intimacy after affair - 07/09/13 06:10 PM
Even if the partner having a EA or PA stops, the damage is done and it is very hard to move forward without working through it. If your partner is not willing to talk to a coach or counselor with you to help you move forward, then I suggest you do it yourself. It is what Michele and her coaches are experts in. Moving past infidelity and getting your relationship back on track doesn't just happen. I can guide you to the right coach that can help in your situation.
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