I decided to start a new thread. My prior thread is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2187060#Post2187060My H has been in a PA since late July/early August 2011. I found out in mid-September. He continues to travel for work to OW's city and is typically gone 5-6 days a week. He lives at home when he is at home. OW is separated with three kids...H says they have more intimate conversations than we have ever had, she's fun, she's energetic. But, he isn't sure about her and a long-term relationship. But, he also isn't sure about us and if he can trust we wouldn't have a SSM again if he comes back.
He has seen some changes in me (I'm now as thin as I was when we got married, running, making new friends, more positive)
I'd like to believe he is warming to me gradually, but the PA/EA continues and next weekend, H is going on a trip with OW. I have told him he needs to leave if he is in an A, but I am now not going to push that issue until after the holidays. I'm nearing the end of my rope on his cake eating and covering for him in front of the kids, family, neighbors, etc. Only a few of my friends and one of his friends knows about the A. (I had to tell a couple friends before I found this board so I could vent and have support)
I am trying to detach and have been distant this week while he has been gone. I will see what his reaction is to me tonight when he gets home. I think he was with OW last night, so he was silent.
Question. I talked to a woman last night who successfully "busted" her husband's affair. She basically went all out to invite him on a hot date, wear lingerie, etc. She viewed it as a competition with OW. I think the all out date is too much in my situation...but I'm wondering about me being a bit more seductive/affectionate in the bedroom. That's where H has been the most responsive to me (seems turned on by me) and although we haven't ML...he is willing to do everything else and also likes to make me feel good. I also think that's the area where he felt the most frustration with me. Not sure how I'd do it, but maybe put on something sexy and let him walk in and see me in it.
Over wine last night, a couple women thought this was a good idea and frankly, they weren't sure I had a lot to lose by trying it. (worst case, my H says, "not into you"...which pretty much matches how I feel every day anyway) I mean, he's already in the affair and I'm already set on putting up with it through the holidays.
Just an idea tossing around in my head...I'm sure someone will pop along soon and slap me. :-)
M: 43
H: 45
D10, D8, D4
Married 12 years
EA/PA since 8/2011 and continues
H still home
My only advice on this one is: I wouldn't do it without proctection. My EXH OW had an STD that is forever and gave it to him....I thankfully did not contract it.
Totally agree, although I wouldn't expect that we would actually ML. H hasn't been willing to go there.
(There's several postings in my prior thread about using protection. The reality also is that OW is just separating from a long marriage and she is from a very wealthy family etc...I know that doesn't mean she wouldn't have stuff...but it's more unlikely)
How do you know she hasn't always been a cheater on her husband? Your doing amazing with all this stuff BTW
Just curious of what people think of the idea...assuming the STD angle is well-covered by not ML, using protection, and likely having a low risk anyway. (H says he uses protection but I know you can't trust that)
Thanks for your support. Not sure I'm doing that well...I tend to obsess and my H's inability to see what he's doing to me and our family is so painful. Oddly, I'm almost getting to the point where I am more angry at him for leaving me alone with the kids, my stressful job, and all of this emotional pain for the last 4 months than I am mad about his affair.
But, H is starting to say this is very hard on him too...so I need to take a deep breath and be positive. From everything I read, it does seem like the H has to trust they could come back to a M that would be better than before.
Fwiw,... I said the first time that I would have to have an affair with my H to get him back... then go dark. (let him miss me). And it worked. If they're willing, just think ... they're screwing around on the person they're screwing around with. Mind boggling LOL.
This time is really no diff. After my "bust" of his lies and my invasion of the parasite OW's house... He started flirting with me Thursday, we cuddled and hugged, and we played last night. He's leaning on me. Talking about lawyers, and scheming (even if it's just talk right now) on how to get daughter. I'm having an "affair" with him again. I'll pull the plug to go dark if needed.
You can utilize the same strategy if he bites. Again, NOT for the weak at heart. We as women seem to wonder how the compartmentalize sex/love differently than we do. They DO link them... it just takes longer.
I'll just have to see...I think I'd have to be in the right mindset and he'd have to be acting friendly. I think I'd want to come from a place of confidence versus neediness.
I would have dismissed the whole idea...but last weekend when he said, "I want you" to me in bed...it made me feel like we could have a chance. I've said a few things to him slightly along those lines...but realized last night that maybe I should just try going a bit further with it. It feels like a 180 to me...but I know there's a big debate over sexual stuff as a 180.
Abbey, nothing we're doing is for the faint of heart!!! The faint of heart would be lying in a ball somewhere in a closet if faced with these situations!
H came home last night and the girls and I were just getting home from a party. I think H was a bit sad he didn't get to go. He went to bed right after the girls and fell asleep.
We gradually started sleeping more closely together and then laid in bed for a couple hours this morning holding each other. I took it up a notch and we had one of our sexual moments (no ML). I said some things and he was responsive. Who knows, but at a minimum...touching is supposed to help create connection.
Today H took the kids to a trampoline place and later we are all going to a game. I am going to keep everything fun.
Abbey, nothing we're doing is for the faint of heart!!! The faint of heart would be lying in a ball somewhere in a closet if faced with these situations!
Yep, if you come from neediness,.... your heart gets too easily bruised. It's hard enough to do it from confidence. It can shake you to the very core.
I just remember where I was during H and OW's full blown affair over the summer of 2008. All I wanted to do was suck my thumb, roll into a ball and hopefully fade to dust.
I think it serves mentioning, because it's really from there that I gained my sense of PURE survival.
The 180 sex thing. Frankly, I think if it can work... try it. If it doesn't, ... you have the option of going dark with is another in the arsenal of DBs. And yes, the touch, cuddle is connection which btw, is like a modem to the other person's brain.
Cheers
Abbey
I have 2 more nights of him being home before his weekend vacation with OW. I will see how things go...I would like to keep him feeling connected. I don't think I will do anything too overt.
Yep, the pain of all this is huge...
[quote=Nblost]And yes, the touch, cuddle is connection which btw, is like a modem to the other person's brain.
Abbs, not sure what you meant, but it makes me think about my own sitch where H and started to reconnect. Before I really knew anything for sure, I went to find H one day because I was so upset. My searching him out was a 180 i didn't realize was a 180.
H was relieved I sought him out. We reconnected like crazy that night ...if you know what I mean...The NEXT day...the next day ow left office crying and all upset. I'm convinced she picked up on H and reconnecting and she knew she was losing him. Things got out od=f control between them for a few weeks, but I held my ground, stuck to my own rule book.
Where I'm going with it MZ, is that if a spouse feels sex starved, ignoring them, isn't necessarily the best course of action. Being interested, IS a 180, imo. So... as I've mentioned in a couple of threads, including my own, I see nothing wrong with tossing sex in the mix, IF, you can handle it.
If you can't... then touch is a pretty decent paving stone, I think. People who respond to touch, seem to be the same people who need the physicality of sex more than the average bear. Thus... I think that one seems to connect to the brain/heart/head the same way as sex would. Eg: modem to the brain.
I'm using back rubs because I KNOW that H could have that done to him for hours. Me, it's brushing my hair. I love it. I could sit and have someone play with my hair for hours. Guess what he's been doing in response to my back rubs.
My T is interested in the fact that we're in this place, but we still both seek out the touch connection. It's a bond technique that they suggest to parents and infants... including step parents. Simple touch can be very powerful.
I go so far as to touch my H's shoulder when we're looking over business contracts etc. If they quote - unquote "let" you touch them. Use it, I say.
Abbey
I agree. What I was asking is for clarification=cation about who you meant by "other person." Didn't know if you meant ow or H.
Yeah, sex was my ace up my sleeve. The stupid mean girl couldn't achieve the big O. Didn't even have enough sense to fake it.
I'm being selfish here. I'm worried about InTheMoment...
Thanks guys...I will continue the touching as much as possible. It is taking a lot for me to remain positive and not lose it about OW or his upcoming trip. H was secretly texting tonight and it is so disrespectful.
Nblost, teensy, tinsy little baby steps. Don't expect touch to work magic with no slip ups. (I know you know this, we all do, but the heart gets really hopeful, even when the head knows better.)
Even with the cuddly H, mine was all concerned about daughter getting home late from a family gathering with OW's husband. He proceeds then to tell me his concern about OW, not getting enough sleep, because the kids got home late, and she has to get up at 5 am. ... Like I care eh? I care that daughter isn't being taken care of properly. I care that she might/will be grumpy if he sees daughter today. I care that children need structure and consistency. I don't give a rats ass about the OW, her lack of sleep OR anything else of her supposed hardships.
He told me she rarely sleeps. He STILL views her as some kind of little broken bird that needs to be protected. His concern for her at times makes me want to slap him on the head. Yes, disrespect. Yes, our H's have their heads up their collective butts. Sadly we simply don't know what ends up being the straw that breaks the camel's back with OW. We wait and we wonder.
Had a work trip today to Vegas where H and OW went on a vacation at some point (I'm guessing early in the A). I was so stressed last night that I barely slept..both a combination of needing to lead a work meeting in my current emotional/mental state and not wanting to go there. I have felt like my heart is being stepped on all day today...amazing how much your chest can hurt. (H was texting me while I was there that I should have fun, gamble, go out to eat...which I guess was nice...and I haven't told him it was hard for me to go there)
I survived. He is home until tomorrow night when he returns to OW's city for work and then their trip. I haven't asked where they are going or for how long...although it strikes me that it wouldn't be unreasonable to know given I'm home with our three kids. But, I will not ask...I refuse to talk about their stupid A.
H is being "nice" as usual, but a bit distant and it's hard because we don't have any good conversations (since we have a dark cloud over us at all times due to the A). I guess LRT would say I don't really want to engage him that much in conversation anyway.
I keep thinking...what if H "woke up" and could be man enough to cancel his weekend with OW and be here for his family? I know that's too quick, extreme and good to be true...but it would show so much character. I just don't get how he can go away during the holidays with OW and not be wracked with guilt.
At least I did tell him how hurt this trip makes me feel (over Thanksgiving when I went nutty with bad R talks). I guess I need to realize that I said what I wanted to say and there's not much more I can do. He needs to deal with his life. I know I wasn't perfect...but I don't understand how he can throw everything that we had/have away.
Venting once again...
I know I wasn't perfect...but I don't understand how he can throw everything that we had/have away.
Venting once again...
Because they are in the most SELFISH place within their own heads. No other good way to put it. They're just alien abducted. Don't expect clarity, because they're not in that place yet.
Honestly, at some point, the detaching gets easier and is a relief. Work on that. It's for you, not him.
Abbey
Thanks Abbey...I guess that's the biggest struggle. He is in such a selfish place and I can see the bigger picture. I wonder if the selfishness starts to go away gradually, or if they tend to only wake up when something really cracks--like OW freaks out or the W kicks them out of the house?
You are right about detaching...I guess it feels harder when my H is kind of "in and out" of our relationship. (although, I would rather have him wavering than clearly done)
The wavering is a good thing. Just let it run it's course. I call that the "spin cycle". That's where I'm at. Go read my latest post in my thread to see what I mean. We're having a great time, he's CLEARLY doing something that would drive the OW off her tree,... then the next moment he asks me a question that should have gotten him punched in the head. They're SOOOO selfish right now that there's nothing you can do but put your seat belt on.
It often comes in bits and fits... sometimes in one big bite, but more often than not, in bits and fits, then something is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
It's also why I say detaching, once you get the hang of it is a god send.
Abbey
Just jumping in here but, has anyone read or heard any post about when H comes out of the fog and does realize what they have done????... Would like to know what that looks like ....
Great question! Let's hope at least one H has eventually come out of the fog!
From the books I have, I have a hard time finding situations where the H continues the affair and then eventually comes out of it. Most of the examples are of situations where the H agrees to end the A and then they are full of grief and an emotional wreck.
From some of the books I've read, the H doesn't truly recognize what they've done until therapy has started and they start to hear all of the pain they caused the betrayed spouse and see/hear the spouse's anger and sadness. From what I've read, it's really key for both people to go through the pain of telling/hearing about the affair both to start to heal/forgive and to hopefully ensure the H doesn't do it again.
I've been hoping my H may be showing some sign
H just left for his work trip/weekend away with OW. I think today went really well from a DB perspective.
I ended up asking H if he wanted to meet me for lunch today...but, I couldn't go until about 1:30 pm due to work meetings. H said okay and when he met me, he just got an iced tea because he had already had lunch with his coworkers. I thought it was interesting he met me when he could have easily have said he had already gone to lunch (especially since I gave him an easy out because I went so late)
H got home from work in time for a family dinner with our three girls. The girls were excited we were all together. After dinner, H found the Christmas ornaments and we turned on Christmas music and decorated the tree. I can't believe that didn't pull on his heartstrings at least a little? When we were done, we had a fire going and H sat down next to me and put his hand on my leg. We each had a glass of wine and the kids were running around being silly.
H then went up to pack (I did sneak a peek into his little suitcase and didn't see anything unusual to give me a clue about his trip with OW...I was glad not to see a swimsuit or several pairs of shorts). I sat down by the fire and read a book. I didn't engage him in any conversation and he came in a couple times to make small talk and I was friendly but didn't say many words. He was also offering to help with various things tonight...hopefully that means he feels some guilt over leaving.
When he left, he came over, kissed the top of my head and gave me a hug. He said he'd call me later. He seemed a bit sad/lonely to me. I calmly said I'd talk to him later. He left to go get on the red eye flight.
Anyway, I told a friend via email...I feel like I really aced today...too bad the only person aware of the competition I'm in is me!
Of course, I'm nervous/scared that he can now go running into the friendly arms of OW...but hopefully this is the right approach by me to give him the space to feel bad.
I feel like the next few days are going to be one hour at a time...at least I do have some things going on to keep me busy--cookie making tomorrow at our church, work trip on Thursday/Friday (my parents are coming to stay with kids), and then hopefully taking the girls on a road trip on Saturday/Sunday.
M: 43
H: 45
D10, D8, D4
Married 12 years
EA/PA: 8/2011
Affair continues, H still in house
One minute at a time. The hard part is that this crap hardens your heart. When you're away from it, you can busy yourself with your own life easier than when they're stuck IN your life, spinning their damn wheels.
Yes, I think they do feel bad. I think they don't have the capacity to deal with it.
It's hard to find info on the affair/fog lifting I think because men aren't as forthcoming with emotions. They seem to want it to all go away once they realize the damage they have left in their path. It's a big mountain to climb, in their minds. One that makes them fearful.
The job we have as the LBS, is to make sure they don't take the ski lift up to the top of the mountain... in order for BOTH people to heal,... they have to make the climb and make amends.
Abbey
H texted me a few times as he got on the plane. I texted back and told him I appreciated him finding the Christmas ornaments. He said he had fun, the kids were mostly good, they are cute, and then he said, "Sorry about everything we are going through. I am going to read your book".
I didn't see the texts until this morning. I responded and said, "Okay. I think you may also want to talk to our MC." H is referring to either the Shirley Glass book "Not Just Friends" or the book "When Good People Have Affairs". I haven't pushed any books on him, but I told him I had read a few books on affairs and I thought it was helpful. (I am NOT tell him about Divorce Busting...)
H called this morning to tell me he did really well in his first meeting of the day (after his red eye flight...he is insane) One of the top people at the company he works for noted his project and stood up to shake H's hand for doing an outstanding job.
More baby steps? He's gone now for a week so I think I play it cool. It seems like the combo of DB and the holidays may be getting to him a bit.
It sounds like you're doing ok. Just remember baby steps. And he'll still slip. The fact that he's willing to read the books... is a big step forward. Don't be too disappointed if he doesn't get all the way through it.
He's moving towards you... just keep the path smooth... but not too easy
Abbey
More baby steps? He's gone now for a week so I think I play it cool. It seems like the combo of DB and the holidays may be getting to him a bit.
DB says not to mind-read. Who knows WHAT he's thinking, or WHY he's thinking it?
Best to focus on YOU -- your GALing, your improvements, your goals.
Starsky
Thanks Abbey. Yeah, and his trip this weekend with OW is a big factor. Is he more worried than usual about keeping the fire with me warm? He seems to want both options to remain open.
He's loosely said he'll read something or get counseling before...so I am not getting my hopes up too high. Honestly, I hope he talks to our counselor over reading a book.
I intend to remain busy here and quiet. Let him think about his actions and hopefully OW senses something this weekend. It'd be great timing for that to blow up around now.
Just remember that when this thing does blow up... he has to mourn that loss. As hard as it can be for us to understand it. (esp since they didn't seem to mourn OUR loss)... don't be surprised if it takes weeks or even months. They'll sulk, they'll waiver,... just respect his process, he'll figure it out when he's good and ready and not before, unfortunately
Agree...one of my friends had an A and she was a wreck for about three weeks when she ended it. I've heard you want to see that grief/mourning though too so that hopefully it's really ending or over. We'll see if I get to that point.
My H has consistently said he hasn't been sure about OW. He believes things could be great between them based on what he had seen so far, but he's consistently asked for time to figure things out. My hope is that given I found out about the A about 6 weeks into it...maybe they aren't quite as committed to each other as some As? Who knows. Obviously there's a big enough connection to risk our entire marriage over it.
Time will tell...I do think it's good for me to have some hope to inspire me to keep up the DB-ing. I also don't think H is really acting like a man who thinks he's going to be separated/heading towards a D.
Mine isn't acting like that at the moment either. That said, they do spin cycle all over the darn place. It's our job not to get too discouraged, or too overly optimistic.
They do this at their own pace, and can back slide the same way that we do when R talks come up, or we get clingy etc.
You said something about "risking" the marriage. Some go so far off the rails, that they really have no clue what they're risking. While others, like yours and mine... just want the world to stop for a while til they can figure it out. Neither is easy, both have their own sets of problems for us to deal with, and roller coaster rides to endure.
Like yours, mine spends more time mad at the OW, and wanting to just be with his daughter etc. I mean, you really want to SUE someone you supposedly love? Yet... much like your H, with doubts,... in their mind this all makes sense. He have doubts, but I still want to be with her - It's hard not to try to make sense of it, but it won't make sense, because their brains are soup
The thing is,... that because they're not necessarily as committed, it can take longer for their head to wrap around the whole gravity of what they've done too. Because limbo is a soft cushy place where they don't have to do anything... they can sit there and stew. They will eventually get off the pot... but non committal has a harder time "blowing up" unless the OW is a total nut job. (That's what I"m counting on, with mine).
Because he's asking for time, you have the time to show him what he'd be missing... and all the new interesting things he'll be missing. It's an opportunity for us... we best not squander it
Cheers
Abbey
Yes, I am guessing that my H and OW are in a "hot" affair...but not necessarily worried about the long-term right now or a big commitment. I have a feeling OW may just be having fun while she goes through her separation/divorce and my H is riding along. (Fits well with his feedback that she's really fun, energetic, etc) He maybe can't get into a huge relationship talk with her because it would be "dorky" at this point to talk about a big future. My H was so starved for love and attention when he met her...he'd have fallen head over heels.
Again, I'm also hoping the fact I discovered the A while it was only 4-5 weeks old is also a good thing. I would hope he may have kept things a little less serious with OW than he would have if it was secret. I do think he's conflicted.
I also don't think "my" OW is psycho at all. I have friends who have mutual facebook friends with her and I've met OW's dad through my job (CEO of a company I did work for as a consultant). I may have a huge problem that she won't put pressure on H or go psycho on him. My best bet may be that she gets tired of him flying home to his family and she meets someone else in her social circle.
Saying this out loud, I do need to keep showing H what he is missing. If I rock the boat in January and he moves out...maybe he realizes he's losing a lot over just some "fun"?
Of course, I am also hoping some of the intense endorphins start to die down a bit and maybe some reality seeps into their A too. At a minimum, I hope yesterday makes H feel some more guilt and like he's missing out on things at home. I just hope he has a few moments on his trip with her where he feels hollow...
That hollow feeling comes in spirts from what my H said. It's often at something so unrelated too. She may say a word that you usually use, or has a quirk that he finds endearing in you.... which in her, seems trite. Ya just never know.
I figure she's probably going to grow tired of him. Frankly, that's not a bad thing. Because he's then given a taste of his own medicine - being dumped. Can be quite conducive to being opened to making amends and really doing the work necessary.
Abbey
I don't understand. Why would either of you want to be with someone who is making you their SECOND choice? What am I missing?
Starsky
Took the girls to a church event tonight where we made cookies and then delivered them to senior citizens and caroled. It was a great thing to do with the kids and nice to feel good about helping others. H texted me from OW's city while we were doing it and he said it was awesome that we did that. He was pretty engaged in texting us afterwards, so he seemed to be alone at his hotel.
I don't know when he leaves on his trip with OW...I imagine he'll go radio silent at that point. I just need to stay strong on the DB and positive in my interactions...pretty easy via text message.
He was also still really buzzed up about getting great feedback and praise at work...it'd be great if that helps build up his ego/self esteem. I figure the more positive I am, the kids are, and work is...maybe he needs OW a little less? Oh yeah, except for the sex part...dang! :-)
Starsky, for me, the last 6 months are completely different from the rest of our 12 year marriage. This is the first time H has done anything like this (and I truly believe that because he acted so differently once he was in an A that I knew something was going on). Our marriage had deteriorated and I could have seen myself tempted by an A in the right situation. Our biggest issue was a difference in sexual desire but I think I also need more from H in terms of communication and quality time. We had also stopped being warm and appreciative to each other.
I've actually told my H that I won't be his second choice and he's making me second choice every week that this continues. He says he understands and he'll move out...but he hasn't done that yet. After the holidays, I'll get serious about this not continuing.
I have three daughters who don't know this is going on and love their dad. If he would wake up out of his fog, I'd be willing to work on the marriage to keep our family together. And, we've never been to marital counseling and I have a hard time giving up without trying that.
However, if H continues to waver or he won't do the work...we'll be done. I'm not going to put up with this for very much longer.
I think for me, the other reality is that given the devastation of this...I'm not ready to move on and start dating yet or anything close...so, I feel like I might as well give us a chance and work on myself right now.
NB, as was my H. This ISN'T the man he is. (nor what he was before involvement with her.) It is very specific to a person to whom he just can't seem to let go of. It's a caustic, inter-toxic mix and power-struggle between them. He had it beat until the daughter sitch became clear. Frankly, she is an addiction to him. Just like booze, or gambling or any other compulsion. (And fwiw, calling this a compulsion/addiction isn't an excuse if anything, it's a very pointed finger. I'm an ex smoker - cold turkey, and an "ex" heavy drinker - cold turkey, so I'm well aware of owning what you do in your own addictions and compulsions and your WANT AND NEED to control and conquer them. I'm quite aware that you have to WANT to make those changes in your life. And since I did that for me,... I see no real reason why someone else cannot do the same. I'm probably tougher on the expectation to "grow a brain" of people who need to, than the average person, BECAUSE I did so myself. Daemons are meant to be beat, and I don't buy - I can't, it's hard etc.)
As it is now though,...My H still wavers as well between defending her, and wanting to take her to court and rid his daughter of that poor excuse for a mother. He's struggling, holding on to the side of the pool, reaching out to me in fits and spirts... but is still unable to finally try to break free again and conquer this. He IS making an effort and trying to get it all straight in his head like he had to before. The need for cold turkey doesn't necessarily make sense to everyone, So...
I too am at a place where I won't let this go on forever. I too was at a place before this happened that I actually thought of leaving. (No other person involved at all.) I want a relationship that fills me with joy, and fulfillment. I want a man, not a spin cycle. I want to be with someone (if at all) who is as willing to work on us as the priority as I am. If not, it's not worth my time. I'll give him his "cold turkey" no matter if he wants it or not.
If mine isn't able or willing to do the work, once the fog lifts, I'm done too. My exit strategy IS in place. That is doing this, this way, for me, nobody else.
NB and I understand where our head space is, because we're living it. We're seeing this first hand and Starsky, whilst you may not understand the full scope of this, I think both NB and I have a very good handle on what needs to be done.
Cheers
Abbey
Trust me though, I question myself every minute on how I am surviving this and if I'm doing the right thing!
I guess I feel good that I confronted H when I found out about the A and I've told him honestly all along how much this is hurting me.
The DB-ing part for me is getting a life for myself (something I had let slip away in the craziness of our daily life), showing H that I'm changing by being more positive, fun, and upbeat, and being more affectionate with H.
At some point, I will have a conversation with him about how moving forward from here will take a big leap of faith from both of us. I will need to believe he can end his affair and I can trust him again. He will need to believe he can come back to me and I'll forgive him. And we will both need to believe we can work on our marriage and get it to a better place.
I wouldn't be doing any of this if I didn't fundamentally believe H was a good person before this happened and we didn't have a base of friendship.
But, all that said, this has been extremely painful. H seems to be gradually "waking up"...but I don't know where this will go. Underneath it all, I want a husband who truly wants to be with me...and I no longer know if that is my H.
Exactly Nb,... the pain, wondering what will be left of you *after* this whole thing is done (how do we actually survive this?)... if this IS the right way to go? It's all there. I questioned myself the first time, it's no different now.
It's awful to feel like you, your life, your marriage, your decisions, or not making the "right" decisions are constantly in the crosshairs. For me, I know that I have to feel ok that I've done what I could do. Closing the door becomes an easy thing then.
It's interesting that like you, there's a friendship base there, and that H is a fundamentally good person, that if they were not, I too, wouldn't bother.
I keep thinking of a quote I heard on one of my fave tv shows said a few weeks back: I want something permanent, that can't be taken away, is that too much to ask?
No matter if that's with H, or someone else (doubtful).. or simply by myself, completely OK with living on my own, being my own person, having my OWN life, where NOBODY can threaten it again. That's what I want.
Is that going to be with our respective H's? Only time will tell. I know this: Each arrow of pain, is like one more chunk taken out of me. Each chunk makes it harder to see my love for him being able to survive it.
Abbey
Agree completely. That's why I know I can't go on for long...too much will be lost and I also believe H needs to see the consequences of his actions. I am glad I've been (somewhat) patient until now...because I think H has seen some changes in me and I believe he's having more conflicting thoughts.
I know that for me, the kids are a big part of it. I ideally want them to grow up in a home where their parents are happily married and they can see an example of how marriage should work. I also don't want to give up too quickly and lose out on a portion of their childhood. I also don't think either me or H can imagine us not being a family. H still invites me to do everything he does with the girls. I can also see the struggles of finding someone new when there are kids involved.
On the other hand, I also want to raise strong daughters and I don't want them to sense I am being a doormat. I think if H could look at himself...he'd see he's not acting how he would want their future husbands to act towards them.
So complicated, and I think you can only take things day by day.
I do really appreciate the diverse perspectives on this board though, and I want people to push me and test my thinking. I know I'm stronger and more able to think differently because of all of you!
Fabulous site. Will read more when I have some time. Thanks for sharing that.
Interesting what she said about the "OW" and how they appear on way at first, then another when the fog lifts.
See that's the prob I have,... mine is showing signs of it again. Signs like: Sigh- I know I'm going to have to take her to court in January. Now while it's all with a grain of salt (as we all know here). He would have never said that a month ago. He insisted he was head over heels in love, blah blah.
Our sitchs ... esp in this section are so unique, but many of them follow the same path. Thus why you and I haven't closed the door completely.
That "one inch" is where I think it sits best... they want it opened again, they're going to have to work for it. (Like the guy in the newsflash. :))
Abbey
NB, that was a really good link. Puts it right there! And if you can hang in there long enough for the A to run its course, then you are all that much better off.
Years ago I read an article by Dr. Joyce Brothers (before I was married) and she was writing about A s. She advised that if at all possible, do not let your H know you know and let it run its course. She stated that most end in 9 weeks.
So in Dec of 2009 when I had suspicions and told myself I was being paranoid, I remembered the article. I was not happy myself with H and how he was behaving towards me and the family. I actually wanted out and so I was not invested. I actually remember thinking, "If he is having an A, I don't want to know about it and I'll let it run its course." SO I did until end of May when I got it that I had to take some action.
Of course, really waking up and realizing it was really happening was a different story. The pain from the lies, deceit and betrayal are tough to bear. It's not so much about sex as it is consciously harming the ones you love. That has been hard for me to understand.
You and Abbey are where I was 18 months ago. I applaud and support how you are both handling this.
Hopefully in time your sitchs will resolve and either you will choose to move on or choose to piece. Just MHO and FWIW- It's harder in the piecing phase I think because you have to do the really hard work of heavy lifting and making the behavioral changes in yourself and hope to God that you H does the work in himself.
As you may know, I had a bit of a back slide this past week, but I'm back to my DB plan and brushing up again. I'm posting in Staying Solution Focused now. C'mon over if you want.
Oh, I wanted to add (IMHO) that I really do believe that any woman who would knowingly and willingly be with a married man is missing a few marbles. I think it is even worse when they've been married and have children. GOOD women do not do that! She's breaking the sisterhood code.
I have to agree with you MZ. What is WRONG with people who have affairs with married spouses? Are they so devoid of any ... morality, ethics, principles??? It's sickening to know just how many ... women in particular, would be so willing to engage in such douchebaggery.
Abbey
and hope to God that you H does the work in himself.
That's where we faulted the first time. A dear friend of mine, and one of the in the know family members, have both said the same thing. He would have NEVER done this now, or be doing this now, if he had any concept of what harm and damage he did the first time.
I'm really beginning to wonder if one of the necessary things to BREAK the fog or mLC alien brain is for them to have to do that work. It too is part of the process, if you see what I'm thinking.
Something I need to ponder more on.
Abbey
Abbey, a really good book on affair recovery is Torn Asunder. The author would say that having the cheating spouse fully feel the pain they caused is key. I think that's true and I can imagine it will be really hard.
This is the weekend H is away with OW. I was on a work trip last night and had the chance to go bar hopping with several guys from my company. A couple are good friends, others I had just met. We ended up at a very fun bar with dancing and I had had many (too many) drinks by this point. I had a great time dancing and flirting. Pretty soon, I had 3 of the guys competing for my attention. You can imagine how great this felt for me. They had all been drinking too, so everyone was much looser than they normally would be with coworkers.
Well, here's the bad part...I don't even remember getting back to the hotel, but one of the guys (married) came back to my room with me. I told him I didn't want to get involved with him because he was married, but he told me how beautiful I was, how I deserved to be happy, etc. We ended up fooling around but not fully. He slept the night and then we both woke up with hangovers this morning and had to get to our respective work meetings. He asked me if I was okay this morning and he was wondering why I couldn't look him in the eye. I didn't tell him this, but it's because of his wife. I feel terrible and I know I would never continue this because of her.
I don't plan to tell H about this now (while he is still hiding the details of his A), but I would probably tell him if we go to counseling and are working through things and needing to be honest with each other.
The interesting dynamic that I am still thinking about is...I have a better understanding of how H got into his A. I could argue the guy last night made me feel better than H has made me feel in a very long time. I can see where if he was available, I would be tempted.
I also now have a huge distraction in my head while H is on my trip. I told one of my friends about this and she was not surprised I "lost it". I have been under so much stress and she's been surprised I haven't exploded and done something worse.
I screwed up though and I shouldn't have done what I did. :-(
NB,
A similar thing happened to me recently too. Can't remember where I posted it. I am on a board and there are new and old friends on this board. One man, very handsome and successful was always hanging around after board meetings with my friend from HS and her H. I began to feel really strong pulls towards this man in a very sexual way. I mean I felt SEXY and WANTED.....I ended up leaving these little gatheringS early because I really couldn't handle it. It was so visceral! When I called my friend a few weeks into this I heard her H say in the background, "______ wants to f*&k MZ." They were taunting me, but I knew they had picked up on it. I said. "OMG!" Later his W attended a function and I felt so sorry for her. They had a strained interaction I keenly observed and I just wanted to pull them both aside and "counsel" them on getting re-connected.
I would never hurt another woman the way I've been hurt. You can see how easily it can happen.
Also, this same HS friend cheated on her H years ago, so her H has actually been a good friend/confidant to me. My neighbor is their plumber. My neighbor is CUTE and I always thought, "If something happens to my H, I could marry the neighbor and we could become land barons!" So My friend's H told my neighbor that my H cheated on me. After a church supper he (cute plumber guy)came up to me and said, "MZ I heard what happened and you are a beautiful woman and if I had you, I would cherish you." Well, you can imagine what THAT felt like!
I know, I know sweetheart. Take what you need from that experience to give you what you need, but do not go there....(censored)
It will be VERY interesting to see if this has any intuitive hit upon your H and what he does with it. Stay tuned, huh?
Well, H doesn't get home until Wednesday or Thursday (yes, just great that I have no idea)...so maybe the impact will have worn off a bit. I agree though, H texted me this morning and my reaction was basically "why are you texting me? get on your trip with OW already..." I felt much more disconnected (which made me realize how my H who is very good at compartmentalizing could likely have handled the A and not really thought about me or the kids)
Although, if we are both in affair fogs...do they cancel each other out? Would we magically start seeing eye to eye on everything? Would H's thought processes all make perfect sense to me? :-)
I am really not going to go there...luckily, without drinks, I've never been attracted to this guy, he works at the same company, and I just don't have the capacity to have an A right now.
Just to clarify, I didn't actually text my thoughts to H this morning, just told him I was having fun on my trip when he asked about it.
Ahhhh....I'm thinking the shift in you, the detachment you are experiencing, even so slight, he may very well pick up on. He'll sense something.
Drinks...LOL, there was a scene on Dexter a few episodes ago where the cop got drunk and picked up a woman. Left his gun in her car so had to go and get it. She wasn't exactly pretty.
I really, really, really wish I drank right now. LOL. (I'm in no booze mode because I had stomach surg in the summer. Supposed to leave between 6 months to a year before consuming booze. (All's good too because I drank far too heavily back in 2007 - quit cold turkey back then, to prove to myself I could do it.)
That first glass of wine (hopefully in my new place)... will taste REALLY good. So I can't drink with you in this full moon... but I'll get there
cheers
Abbey
I have actually been drinking a lot less since H's A...but I guess I made up for it. :-) I think given my H's trip...I was on a bit of a mission that night.
I'm definitely thinking the lure is the self-esteem boost. Also, I don't think my idea of ramping up the sexiness with H was a bad one...hard to compete with the OW but I also don't think it necessarily hurts (especially in my case where H stil seems to generally like me)
As one of my friends said, "your life is certainly not boring".
The moon was HUGE at 5:00 tonight. BIG, yellow, like my neighbor put a pole in the ground and put a bf huge honking light on. Up higher in the sky and just full and beautiful.
In its waning phase it's a good time to cast spells to send things away from you.....like ow! ;-)
H's OW, was in a car wreck this week... SO CLOSE... but yet ... so far. *smile* If only, if only, if ONLY. So if you can cast a spell or two in my direction... she rarely wears a seatbelt!
I'll see if I can cast some equal thoughts your way
Abs
You know what is interesting...a few days ago, I would have said..."Count me in on the spells, I want OW dead!" Today, I saw this comment and just felt like I didn't care. At this moment, my feeling is, she can have H.
I texted H once today about the kids and he asked if we were still on our little road trip. Interesting that he gets to ask the questions but doesn't offer up any information on his trip with OW. I haven't asked a thing about it.
I really feel like for H to get me back, he is going to have to work for it (and I'm not sure he will ever be willing to).
Kind of interesting what one night of fun and attention after 5 months of misery will do to your mind. I would still be willing to get back together with H for the kids...but right now, I'm really disgusted by his actions.
M: 43
H: 45
Married 12 years
PA/EA: August 2011
H still with OW, still in house
Nb, it MUST be the full moon, because I had a total melt down yesterday. Tonight he's with her, and I couldn't care less. LOL.
I really feel like for H to get me back, he is going to have to work for it (and I'm not sure he will ever be willing to).
Kind of interesting what one night of fun and attention after 5 months of misery will do to your mind. I would still be willing to get back together with H for the kids...but right now, I'm really disgusted by his actions.
That's the thing my friend and I talked about. I think we need that validation in order to heal. THEY need to do that work to give us the validation...AND to make an honest attempt at reconciliation.
Without that work... it's lip service. Too easy for them to come back... means too easy for them to do it again.
Abbey
H is "back" from his trip with OW but still in her city. He went over to one of our friend's houses tonight and texted me pictures. It seemed obvious to me that he wanted me to know he was back from his trip. I was pleasant to him, but not overly responsive. He called and talked to the kids for about a half hour a bit later. At one point, he must have asked them "how is mommy" because our 4 year old ran in to ask me how I was and then ran back and told him my answer "great".
I just don't feel like initiating any contact with him. He doesn't want to tell me about his trip...so any conversation we have would be completely one-sided. He was asking the kids about our road trip...and they were very excited telling him about the hotel, shopping, etc...so that was good.
H also threw a couple things out in his texts tonight about our friends coming to visit us in March, and another friend wanting us to go into a real estate investment with him. I didn't respond to either text. I just don't feel like I can say we'll be together much longer. (especially if he thinks he can go on trips with OW without checking with me or making sure I am okay having the kids)
I think I remain "dim" and doing the LRT. He knows he is out in January at the rate he's going...this weekend has made me more comfortable with that. I'm also really tired of covering for him and I am so tired of all of his lies.
It'll be interesting to see if he notices the change in me.
Fabulous site. Will read more when I have some time. Thanks for sharing that.
Interesting what she said about the "OW" and how they appear on way at first, then another when the fog lifts.
Abbey
could you post the sight again?? I cant find it and would like to check it out...
how are you doing Nblost? I see your husband is back and Im wondering how your going to handle things when you see him next...I was just thinking about you and wanted to let you know..
Fabulous site. Will read more when I have some time. Thanks for sharing that.
Interesting what she said about the "OW" and how they appear on way at first, then another when the fog lifts.
Abbey
could you post the sight again?? I cant find it and would like to check it out...
how are you doing Nblost? I see your husband is back and Im wondering how your going to handle things when you see him next...I was just thinking about you and wanted to let you know..
I saw that link had been deleted. I wonder if this site doesn't like us posting to outside sources? I do find that if you google questions you have...it's amazing how much affair-related stuff is out there. (I've also found it validating to read things written for the OW given the frustrations they have from their side around the H being a liar and not leaving his wife)
I am okay. H gets home tomorrow night. I continue to feel very detached. I will admit I'm distracted by my "one night stand" from last week although I swear it's kind of a nice distraction. I just need to remember it would not be healthy for me to go any further into a new "relationship" right now. I think my ego just really needed the boost. (I've told a couple friends about it as well to make sure I don't get into anything shrouded in secrecy)
I feel like a big wave of pain and reality is waiting for H and I in January. To all of our family and most of our friends, we are a happy, loving couple and we are great people. (H particularly thrives on being "such a great guy"). I can't imagine us separating...but I think I'm ready. I can't keep propping up his cake eating. When I say out loud that he's been openly having an A for the last 3 months while I've known about it...it sounds insane. Even more insane when I told a few people this past weekend that he was on a secret vacation with her.
Honestly, this isn't the man I married or want to be married to. Sadly, I think we could be happy again if he was willing to try. But, none of us deserve to be second choices...
Anyway, it's amazing how quickly one's life can derail...although, I still say that in a way, I'm glad this happened. I see some of the lifeless couples around me and I'm not sure I'd trade my life for theirs (okay, maybe I would through the holidays)
Take care everyone...
Hi Nblost
I don't think I've ever written to you before, but I've been reading along.
I really don't advocate jumping into another relationship while your marriage is in such turmoil - but I do believe that all experiences are for a reason - and this site, and the things I've learned since my marriage broke down have given me lots of evidence that absolutely everything that happens, when we released control, is to teach us something we need to learn.
You and I both know that the fellow you kissed the other night is unlikely to be a good long term partner for you. But what that experience gave you was the gift to remember that you are a desirable woman and there is a huge world out there that is so much more signficant than one husband in mid-life-crisis, sneaking over the country to spend time with his mistress ... who frankly he respects less than you if it's possible!!
You don't have to put up with his cake-eating. You'll be OK. You can take the time now to figure out what your boundaries are and implement them. He'll respect that Nblost. He'll have no choice but to make a decision - and I can guarantee you that is the last thing he wants to do now. He wants it all. He wants to have his OW and the fast free life he can have there with her, and he wants you waiting at home, keeping everything going - looking after all of his responsibilities. He's living the life!!!
I'm glad you had that experience - now use it to learn what it was sent to teach you.
Love and blessings, V
Walking. Thank you...this is exactly what I needed.
I really feel done and I think that is coming through with how other men are perceiving me. I am really ready to move on and I think H will be surprised at my confidence.
I saw my guy from last week at work today from a distance...still some sparks...but I smiled and waved at him and he smiled at me. I think the idea of him is what I want...not the reality.
(granted my confidence will all fade when I think of the realities of the kids, etc)
I also agree my H wants both worlds....should be interesting...
I totally get the "other guy"... I think our self confidence has taken a huge hit..when your H picks OW over you, you tend to beat yourself up a bit...(no sh#!).. i would love another male to pay attention to me right now...i feel completely second best...
Take it for what it is..an ego boost, and squeeze every once of confidence out of it!!
I know you can do whats right for you...we will be there for you..
H was trying to call me today to figure out Christmas....I just don't know how to handle him. Should I stay silent on R talks or should I start to set rules?
I guess surviving the holidays may mean faking it through.
Just reminded again how much I hate this.
I guess thats were Im lucky.....H makes no attempt to spend any time or participate in holidays. lucky for me...unlucky and sad for S14 and my other boys whom he chooses to act as if dont exsist....
Im sure everyone here cant wait for the holidays to be over....
I would set rules...I have kept wishing that everything would work its self out where that is concerned and there wouldnt need to be any rules since we are both adults..but when one is not an adult or rationel...there needs to be rules. other wise your flying by the seat of your pants and never know whats gonna happen.
That's one of the key points. The rational adult in our WAS isn't there. Some of us get bits and pieces, some not so much.
You mentioned flying by the seat of our pants. That's why I had to use both DB and Fortel's ideas, along with a bit of Not Just Friends. Where as some respond to going dim or dark in time, some of us actually have to "chase", or be loving to the point of putting our own selves in a very strange emotional place.
I think there's a lot of us who will be glad when Christmas is over, just because it causes stress even in healthy relationships. This can just make us sad and NUTS trying to juggle the alien brain of our spouses.
I pray every day for a lotto win.
As for us living in the reality. It really is a double edged sword. It IS the thing that often brings the alien brain back to us. We represent stability. We represent sanity. Right now, they don't want that... but they'll seek it when they hit that bottom or wall. Some of us even have our spouses clinging to some of it from us, even while being alien. Not healthy for us, but since there is no fix all one way to deal with the WAS, we get to have walk that tight rope.
I find that even getting flirted with, or having someone give you a "second look" is nice. It's not that I want another person in my life, but... it does feel nice to know that I can attract attention. All of us need that from time to time.
Abbey
Right, which is now where I am floundering...I feel like I'm done with H but it's horrible timing to feel this way with the holidays, etc. He's acting very nice towards me...but his actions are terrible.
H keeps asking how I'm doing and I have been saying I'm fine or I'm great. I want to tell him the truth...but so frustrating that I'm not sure it will get through at all. I really don't think he cares about my feelings (or, he cares on some weird level...but doesn't care enough to react or change his behavior)
I guess maybe I keep up the "pleasant" attitude but allow some of my newfound "ready to be done" attitude to show through a bit. I also am not sure H understands that if I file for separation or require him to move out of the house...he may actually need to be home for more than 1-2 days at a time in January to deal with that? To tell the kids?
UGH!!!!!!!!!!
NB, I think you and I are at that cross roads where we WANT to be done... but deep down we know there's still a flame in there somewhere. So do the aliens.
I suspect too, that once we kick them out of the bed/nest/comfy and soft place to fall... they'll start to drown. It's then the brain really begins to kick out.
My advice... do NOT tell him what he's done to you yet. He's still not ready for it. Save it for when he's remorseful. And I suspect he will be. So don't backslide, use it when it's got the most oomph.
Let him chase,... don't become completely aloof but let him chase too. It does something to the male brain to chase. Don't understand it, just have experienced it enough times for me to just believe in it
I don't know what to offer about telling the kids, *hugs*
Abs
Talked to my counselor. She basically agreed that I should continue to try to take the high road with H...especially before the holidays. If I confront him now, what's the point if I am not going to kick him out of the house until January. I think once H is home and we are with the kids...it does get easier.
We will probably be home just as a family on Christmas and then we are going skiing for a couple days. I think that'll be a chance for us to have fun as a family...although there's always a certain dose of stress that comes along with taking the family on a trip like that.
I guess I just need to continue taking things one day at a time. My counselor said I sound really strong...so that's good. She also thought my little fling was a good confidence booster...not that she's recommending getting into a crazy new relationship.
I agree, Abbey, I feel like I'm at a crossroads. I dread a split and everything it means for the kids, our families, etc...and I do think we could work on our marriage. However, I've lost a lot of respect for H.
Respect. One of the things that takes a huge hit in this sitch. The word that keeps creeping into my mind is "weak". I would have never thought that of my H. But now it's quite there.
Does that respect come back? I think only once they start showing themselves coming back to their regular brains. I think that shoving them out of the nest (which is what clearly is what needs to be done in your sitch too.)...forces them to gain respect for us, and themselves.
Abbey
KML, again: the lynch pins are that the WAS is willing and able to do the work. AND the fact that we as the betrayed spouses... we KNOW what they are capable of as far as lies, deception, sneakiness, etc etc etc. It all factors into if we actually make it through a reconciliation at all.
Abs
Been catchin' up on your sitch.
My 2 cents? When the entire truth came out for my sitch, I was very clear that I was not going to live with him if he continued with ow. I was not going to "kick him out" of the house, but he got the message that he would have to choose and if he chose her, he had to leave. It was a difficult balance. He took the day off from work and drove me to an island we used to go to when first dating to talk and decide. I suppose he needed to know if he had a chance with me. Ironically, ow called him while we were there and he said, "Not now!" One of his employees told me (later) that she was a basket case all that day at work. H said she started cutting herself. Friggin borderline.
Puh! Respect? It is a long time coming in the healing. I must be honest with you...at least for me it's been very difficult. You see such an ugly, nasty, pathetic side of them. How they can lead TWO women on and when there are kids involved? That much worse.
Hey, I love my H and I chose to take him back. It has not been easy. It would have been easier to split and start anew. I AM happy I stayed and it does get easier as time goes on. Your emotions WILL ambush you at times. He has to deal with it. I don't apologize as much anymore. Being in this section has helped me become more self-assured. Thanks to all of you who regularly post here. <<<<HUGS>>>>
Anyway, that is not where you are now. I will be here for you regardless of what you decide to do. I do think you are in a good place emotionally. Well....the best you can be considering the circumstances. It will help you stay strong and stick to your plan. Just be honest with yourself and you'll be OK.
I was curious as to what you would say to him if you could right now....?
My problem is I've known H has been having a full-blown PA since August and he told me to my face in September (in front of our MC when we went to our only session) that he couldn't give up the A and having sex with OW. So, I feel like I've known enough of the whole truth for three months and nothing has changed. I told him to choose in October or he needed to leave and he wouldn't or couldn't.
H got home yesterday. We had work parties at the same bar (separate parties scheduled the same night...kind of weird) and we visited each other's coworkers. H came over towards the end of my party and sat with me and a couple of the guys I worked with and we had a relatively fun time. H was very curious about my work trip last week (that ended in my fling) but I didn't tell him anything about that. I did tell him a few tidbits about getting a lot of attention from men at the bar.
When we walked out to the parking lot, I told H I have realized I want things to change with our marriage and told him a couple examples of things--like I want more passion and I want us to be more open with each other. We then kissed in the parking lot and went home and were passionate with each other in bed (without fully ML). H wasn't very intoxicated...I clearly was. So, I guess if my high road was supposed to include being sexual with H...I accomplished that.
One of my friends commented this morning that I must still have a lot of feelings for H. I know I do...but I also know I've been distracted by my fling from last week and a little more "amped up" than normal thinking about that.
But, really...nothing has changed or will change until H is willing to give up the A. I guess I just ignore it for now?
If I could tell him anything right now? I would tell him more about how I want things to change and about how much he's hurt me and the kids. I guess I would just be very honest.
To Abbey's point though, until he's ready to hear it? I don't think I should bother.
H just left again for work/OW's city. He's gone until Friday morning.
We had a typical weekend. H was nice, but kind of distant. We didn't have any sexual contact. H gave me a couple breaks to get some shopping done but otherwise, we basically did things with the kids.
Tonight, we got into talking about H's job and a promotion he was offered. The pay isn't much of an increase, and he will need to continue to travel. The company also wants him to start paying for his own travel in 6 months. I was asking him how he felt about the promotion outside of "everything else". He really likes the company and he thinks it's a great chance to manage a big piece of business. He seems to want the job although he's trying to negotiate for more pay.
We then got into if he'd continue to travel or is this a sign that maybe he should relocate (to OW's city). I reminded him that we can't keep living like this and tried to ask him what he wants to do. He doesn't know and feels like he can't talk to me about it. I told him I'm having a hard time because we have such a one-sided relationship. He agreed. He said he feels like he's been honest with me but I said I'm struggling more with the "lies of omission"....he agreed. We had a talk that was very similar to past talks and it just feels like he is torn. The kids then interrupted us and H came over and rubbed my shoulder. Before we stopped talking, he agreed to go to our MC after the holidays.
We were then downstairs with the kids for awhile but eventually ended up back upstairs and H offered to give me a back rub (I've had a sore shoulder). That led to us talking more. I told H that I still want to work on our marriage, but I don't know for sure how things will work out. He said that wasn't very comforting. I told him I just meant that if we try... if he still doesn't feel good about things...we don't have to stay married. I said I was trying to be positive that trying doesn't necessarily mean he's stuck with me.
He said he thinks that if he lights a match to he and OW's relationship--the whole thing will go up in flames and he'd never get it back. (Really?? and this is the relationship you are risking our family over??) He said though that he still isn't sure he wants to stay married. He didn't like the way we interacted both before and after the affair. I told him I didn't like our marriage before either and we talked about some of our issues and how we didn't work on them. Since the affair, I told him that I couldn't compete and I've felt like I've had to detach from him. (But, makes me realize that the LRT may be too distancing from him and my 180 may need to be being more open with him)
He also admitted that he hasn't talked to anyone about his affair. I think he lied when he told me he had told one of his friends who is divorced. I encouraged him to talk to his friends and he said he doesn't want to in case we work things out. (I think it's a combination of that and of not wanting to tell people what he has done)
We capped off our discussion with our most sexual encounter yet...but no ML still (which is fine). I had also woven into our discussion that I am nearing my breaking point and this is the longest I've gone without sex since I was 18. (I think it's been about 7 months). I don't want to get into a new relationship and I want to work on our marriage...but I am getting tired of this. I won't get graphic, but something funny happened near the end of our "interlude" and H was still laughing about it when he walked out the door to to go the airport. (We both thought it was funny)
Anyway...the positives are:
H agreed to go to counseling in January.
Our discussion was relatively positive without H getting too defensive about the A or too critical of our marriage.
He seemed to be worried about satisfying me sexually.
He left on a funny/affectionate note
The biggest to me is getting him into some counseling. I still honestly feel like I just need him to come to a decision...and hopefully with counseling, it'll be a good one.
M: 43
H: 45
Married: 12 years
PA/EA since August 2011
A continues...
I'm not getting overly excited...but called H at the airport (I thought it would be good to do a bit more pursuing). We had a friendly conversation and I thanked him for agreeing to counseling. H agreed it was the right thing to do for us and for him. He said, "I still care about you".
I'll take that as enough of a baby step for tonight.
Good baby step. These things are so fragile at this point. They have to get comfy in their own skin again. It's hard, ...because we see something positive and it feels like it's being ripped out of our fingers at the slightest threats.
Careful not to clutch too tightly. I know from my own experience, easier to say, than actually do.
Abbey
Yep, Sunday night felt better...yesterday, while he's in OW's city? Barely any contact. I got a couple text messages. (I was trying to initiate a bit more and be friendlier).
I am traveling for work and a bit under the weather, so I'm not in a great mental frame of mind right now. I think it's hard for me to be alone away from the kids. I'm also doing my self evaluation for my year at work and realizing how badly I've been performing since H started his A. Just makes me angry (on top of everything else making me angry)
I really hope H can follow through and we can go to some counseling. I am sure that will be very hard, but I am tired of this life.
I guess at least H is coming home for the holidays.
Today was another hard day. Very little contact from H--I'm very suspicious he is staying with OW this week...nothing new, but more hurtful given what felt like a positive conversation about counseling on Sunday night. Definitely good advice not to get too excited by baby steps!
I nearly lost it today with H over text messages--mostly just that he won't respond, we have a ton going on before Christmas, and of course, I'm imagining him just having fun with OW.
But, I called a couple friends and vented to them. I also stopped by the office of my "fling" from the other week and talked to him about H. He invited me to go to lunch which was just a nice, coworker lunch. He's a good distraction for me.
My parents are here helping me with the kids for a couple days which has been HUGE. However, they don't know about my sitch so I find myself having a hard time being comfortable and open around them. I especially don't want to tell them anything now right before Christmas.
D8 and D10 went shopping with me for awhile tonight. I asked if they wanted to buy H a gift. All they want to give him is a wedding band. H lost his a few years ago and we never got it replaced. It actually really bothers me that he hasn't had to take a ring off while he's been with OW. But, I think buying him a wedding band would probably be a bit much at this point. If we were closer to starting to reconcile, I would consider it.
I don't think I'd even tell H about it, but our girls might. They have a knack for helping to layer on guilt (although not sure H even notices most of the time)
I can't decide if I want the holidays to be over or not...I've set getting through them as a goal and I've realized I am close to either starting counseling with H (which will be painful) or separating from H (which will be painful). I'm pretty sure both will be worse than pretending to be married through Christmas and having H at home.
:-(
H is still very silent. My instincts have been right every other time that this has meant he is with OW. I've realized that I'm not even sure he's working this week in her city.
Painful for me because he wants us to act like we are happily married and have a christmas for the kids together. However, he isn't here or willing to communicate with me on any of the preparations. I know I'm lucky we can afford Christmas, etc...but very hard to be juggling everything and feeling like an emotional wreck.
I'm venting here because I am very tempted to lash out at him or OW. The only "bad" thing I've done is left him a VM today after several calls that he ignored. I just let him know I need to talk to him about Christmas and I've realized I'm not sure when he will be home.
I guess I need to remember that this furthers my resolve to be done...I can't stand this. He needs to move out and face reality.
The problem will be getting through the holidays and acting fun and nice to him. I will need a lot of strength.
I felt like we were making baby steps of improvement, but he may have only been acting that way knowing he was going to be staying with OW this week.
How can you tell your wife you love her and the kids and then go stay with your girlfriend for the week before Christmas?
I hope we can all survive this...
Yes, it TOTALLY [censored]. Just hope that OW is putting pressure on him and pouting about him not being with her on Christmas. In fact, maybe she gets pissed at him cuz he doesn't call her enough when he's with you and the kids!
In fact, for all you know they could be breaking up right this minute.
So suck it up - you don't want to break up over Xmas and have your kids always associate Xmas with their parent's breakup. I had to do something similar - but it was worth it.
Yeah, I know...thanks kml. I think I'm just getting drained and I completely recognize it's terrible timing to lose it. Thanks for responding and trying to keep me sane. (One of my friends said last night, "you can't make it through 5 months of this crap and then lose it now!")
I think OW is probably going out of town with her kids for Christmas. My guess is that her kids are out of town with her husband this week so that's given H and her a chance to be together. (OW and her husband are very rich...grrr) So, I'd love to believe she's really worked up about my H missing Christmas with her...but she is not even divorced yet, so he hasn't met her kids or any of her family yet. H seemed to think it was obvious he'd be home for the holidays.
I was seeing baby steps and H should be home for at least a week over Christmas. I need to have fun with him and make him see there could be a great life with his family. If he can't see that, then we need to be done in January. I guess this pain is making me more and more at peace with that.
I also feel like my 180's and GALing has slipped with being so busy for the holidays, etc. I'm also a little sick and my knee is bothering me...
But, I have an H who is eventually coming home and we will have a nice Christmas. I do know I have a lot to be thankful for.
Kind of lost it tonight at H...
I tried to call him this afternoon and once again like this entire week...no answer. I wanted to talk to him to find out when he is coming home and to coordinate the kids christmas gifts. He was supposed to be getting D10 something and I wasn't sure if he had bought it (he hadn't). I only have tomorrow to try to get all the kids gifts (on top of everything else for the holidays...so I was a little amped up)
He finally called tonight after telling me, "I'll call in a couple hours", "I'll call soon", etc. It was obvious to me he was with OW.
So, when he calls, he sounds muffly and I asked him..."where are you? are you hiding in a bathroom?" He says "no". I say, "you don't have to be afraid to call me...I assume you were at OW's this week". He hesitates, then says, "well, not for ALL of the week". I then say something like, "It's not like we haven't been in this situation for 5 months and we don't all know each other...I think you should be able to call me when you are with her". I also added a couple comments about his bubbles colliding.
We then went on to have a reasonably good conversation about the kids gifts. He said he got me a gift and I said I hadn't gotten him anything yet. I told him the kids wanted me to get him a wedding ring and we kind of joked about that.
Blah...I didn't feel like I got really angry with him, but I think I was kind of bitchy and I don't like that I let that show through. On the other hand..it's the holidays and he is being a jerk...so maybe I don't care.
I need to get my DB hat back on!
Don't be disappointed with yourself for laying things out as they are. Standing your ground, eg: having a discussion about your children ISN'T something he can simply blow off cuz she's around. So good for you.
You also have kicked more of the lid off of his little adventure. I'm finding that because I've taken away some of that clandestine behavior, it seems to have taken the shine off of H's view of it. There is something to having the secrecy that appeals to them, when it's taken away... it seems to lose it's shine. Strange.
Anyhoo... Sometimes you have to go anti DB to skate round a sitch. I think you did just fine!
Abs
My hat is off to you momma...your a much stronger person then i...
If H and i were still in the same house and this was going on i dont think it would be pretty..at all!!
Getting through the holidays is a hard gig, not for sissys, and i think your right...when the holidays are over. He needs to make a decision...otherwise who knows how long he will continue to have his cake...blah, blah, blah...
You are doibg great, dont crack now. Dont let him see the part that is hurting..taken from experience it just makes them angry...they dont want it to ruin there perfect little play they have going...
Thanks guys. I am hoping I can deal with him better when he's home and we are around the kids.
I just have NO respect for someone who can say they love their wife, want to start counseling...and then go spend the week before Christmas with the OW. I guess maybe I just need to view him as a sick person.
I'm also so fed up with handling everything for him. It would be different if we were separated or divorced and so he knew he had to do his own share (okay, it'd be worse to have to coordinate)...but, with a cake eater...it just feels ridiculous.
I did buy him a couple shirts and a hat which I will probably just say are from the kids.
Just to clarify, I bought the stuff for him to be from the kids. We are spending Christmas alone and I realized that if I didn't buy him anything...he would have zero gifts in front of the kids. It would serve him right....but I think the kids would feel bad for him (and they are too young to be able to buy him something on their own)
So, the reason I couldn't get a hold of H this week seems to be that he was on vacation (again) with OW. He came home with a swimsuit and shorts in his luggage (and short sleeved shirts) which does not line up with OW and his work city. I also saw a receipt that he returned his rental car on the first day of his trip and I knew he wasn't at a hotel in OW's city last week.
I found the clothes right before Christmas Eve dinner and H knew I was upset. I said, "I can't do this anymore" in tears as I served the kids their food. D10 was crying during dinner that her stomach hurt...but I am guessing part of it was she noticed I was sad.
I am so angry that I fought to make it through the holidays and he is beyond disrespectful to me.
Im so sorr N..i know it doesnt make it feel any better but i know how your feeling..
On one hand we hoped the holidays would be differant but on the other, it looks like it just may give us a reality check..and the strength to detach like we need to.
Not what we want...but may be what we need...
Thinken of you, and all my girls in this crappy leaky boat..
Lies upon lies upon lies....WHY? Why lie to you about where he is when you KNOW full well that he is cake eating? I think Abbey is right, it's the secrecy and he just needs to keep that going. It's so immature. So disgusting to leave you alone with 3 little girls while he gallivants off.
Sorry, N, but I'm really pi$$ed at your H.
Not that you should stop your DBing, but realize how crazy we all know this is, how hard it is!
MZ's fantasy: Tell him you got yourself a boyfriend and he will now have to stay home and work and take care of the kids while you go on vacation with....switch those roles. Sigh......
We are on "vacation" right now together with the kids. We had a blow out on Christmas Eve night (I know, right?) and I told him I was done. I was going to be the one to pull out of this triangle. H said I am making him really mad by questioning him about his A.
Later that night, I went to talk to H and we ended up sleeping together and he said he still loves "me and the kids". I think we are a package deal.
Now we are on our ski trip. H stays up every night until 5 am because he can't sleep (or, he has told OW he isn't sleeping with me or something). Our interactions seem very shallow/superficial.
I am trying to get us into counseling and H seems agreeable. However, having a hard time getting a session scheduled before H leaves town again.
I'm very much in a place where this either needs to change dramatically (H splits from OW) or we separate.
Ugh.
H has now been with the family for 6 days...sadly, I think that may be a record in the past 6 months since he started his A. He agreed to go to a counseling session with me next Tuesday. I am not really very optimistic about it, but at least it may allow us to start communicating about our situation.
I am also somewhat hopeful that OW will get upset when he's gone for 10+ days. When we had our blowout on Christmas Eve, H said she wasn't happy about things either. (You can imagine how sad I felt for her) It really took a lot of strength for me not to send an "F you" email to her on Christmas Eve night.
Anyway, I guess I'm trying to be as upbeat as possible but I also believe I am just treading water until we go to counseling. At counseling, I believe H will struggle to say he's willing to give up his A and do what he'd need to do to prove to me that it's done. It'll be interesting if our counselor has ideas for how to move forward. I feel very ultimatum-ish.
Hang in there everyone. I think there are several of us reaching our breaking points and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
I know its hard to be optemistic N..so i will be for you..:)
Im happy for you that he has agreed to go, you never know what will happen in a C session...i hope you have better luck then i did.
Im feeling some of us at breaking points also..for me, im thinking about time!!!
I want to be rid of this pain and missing him so badly...i saw some girls laughing the other day and i thought..gawd, i miss that.
Hope you are able to enjoy your trip...have some fun and relax k??
Thanks itm, I appreciate the optimisim.
H and I went out with another family last night for the early part of New Years Eve. H said it was fun and I thought it went okay. The other couple was kissing each other and being affectionate during dinner...I felt sad that H and I haven't been like that for a long time. We got home and H said he felt sick (seemed legit..our family has had a bug this week) and went to bed at 11:15. I started getting teary eyed because I think I'd had hopes that we might have a funner night. H asked what was wrong and offered to stay up until midnight if I wanted him to. I said he didn't have to. I then said I felt bad because one of his issues with me is that I am not fun. I said that I knew if he was in OW's city...he wouldn't be going to bed at 11:15 on New Years Eve. H said, "you are fun". I then went to bed with him and I said Happy New Year to him at midnight. He kissed me on the top of the head. I felt okay about that and I am realizing as I type this that it was a pretty nice night compared to a lot of people on this board.
Today though, H was texting like crazy and being secretive...so I assume it was with OW. He hasn't told me his travel plans yet for this week...so I'm not sure when he is leaving. He's committed to staying until our counseling session on Tuesday.
I'm glad we are going to counseling, but I am also dreading it. I really don't think H is ready to give up his A. His heart is with OW and she's getting all of his emotional energy. I really believe I need to stay strong and tell him we need to separate if he isn't willing to give up the A. I think H will do what he can to stay on his beloved fence and keep eating his cake. Hopefully, the counselor can help us move forward in some way.
Also, I found clear evidence that H went on a trip the week before Christmas and lied about it to me. From what I've read, his lying and covering up is not a good sign...it's a sign he's more aligned to the A than he is to me. But, at least I know what I am dealing with. I haven't called him out yet on the lie because I don't want him to get even more deceptive about what he is doing.
I also need to recognize that this is the longest that H has been home and not with OW. I think some of the bad feelings I'm having just haven't really had the chance to surface before because he usually left. Hopefully OW Is getting mad that he's not around...but I also don't trust he isn't promising her vacations, etc. to make her feel better.
Our ski trip was pretty fun. The kids had a great time and H had a good time with them. It's just the piece between us that is totally missing.
Been in your shoes and never want to go back.
Oh NB...<<<HUG>>>
FWIW- When I was at your point, I told him I loved him, wanted him to stay, wanted our M, or family, but felt that he must go to her and explore the R or he'd always wonder. That would require we separate. I said it calmly. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do.
I got "real" clear in my mind that if he wanted her, I didn't want him. I was not going to play 2nd fiddle. I knew I would hurt, but that someday I would recover....some how.....some way. What he was doing was killing me.
Great perspective, NZ.
Hope I can get to the point where I can get the same clarity.
I'm still at the Laura Munson stage of 'not buying it' when my H says he doesn't want to be with me....
We talked more last night. H believes he has an emotional connection with OW that he has never had with me and isn't sure we could ever have. I think that also flows into the sex. He's still not quite sure he wants to leave...but I also don't think he's at all ready to give up the affair.
I would not be surprised if the outcome of tomorrow's counseling session is that we head towards separation. I am just tired of this and there's no way I am going to become a fun, intimate wife for him when he gives me so little time/energy and he is involved in a full blown A.
If we go down that path, it'll be painful to tell the kids and I don't think H is prepared for what that means for our family. I think he still wants to think he can leave his stuff here and basically drop in a couple weekends a month to pick up the kids and do fun things.
H also claims he hasn't seen enough warmth and connection from me during his A...so he feels like nothing will ever change. I also talk to my DB coach tomorrow...I do think giving him some space was helpful, but too much LRT may have backfired on me....who knows.
I do realize something has to change...this is crazy.
This man's A (he doesn't deserve the title of man) will most likely end on it's own, if it ends at all.
Just don't enable him to have his cake and eat it too. That's why it's so comfortable on that fence. Take it from someone who made all the mistakes fighting for a M in the throes of an A. Don't be a doormat and don't enable them.
NB, I scr3w3d my H brains out and did things WAY beyond my comfort zone while he was in the throes of his A.
My 180? I "moved" IN with my attention and connection. I'm a professional whose job sometimes requires 24/7 work. I cut back. I focused on US.
Thanks GH, I think you and MZ have valuable perspectives. GH, looks like your W eventually returned?
I think I've been hoping the holidays and our counseling session tomorrow could change things and we wouldn't need to separate. The reality is settling in that we very likely will need to. I also feel like H is trying to turn things on me so that it seems like I'm now the one initiating a separation.
I am going to go for a run and try to get a positive mental attitude going for tonight when H gets home (from a bowl game). We'll then go to work and then our session tomorrow at 4:00. I need to have an open mind for that session and see where it goes.
Last night, I got too sad/weepy and it is so hard not to get negative/angry about our sitch. H didn't help by cracking a couple jokes in the middle of our discussion. (There are times where he clearly seems in a fog or MLC)
Cracking jokes? Yep, still in the fog.
<sigh>...MZ, I'm sure you are right.
Went for my run so am feeling better.
Plus, he really hasn't acknowledged the hurt/pain he has caused. I don't think he's capable of processing right now.
I'm probably throwing money in the wind going to counseling tomorrow...but maybe it helps put us on some type of path. I guess at a minimum, maybe H will open up a bit if he's asked the right questions or knows we're spending money to be there.
I told him some of the stuff I've read about affairs and him putting up walls and being in a fog last night. He seemed mildly curious, but I'm sure would dismiss it if it made him look bad or irrational.
Hi NB,
Yes she did and we had 2 children (I know without any doubt that they're mine). The story is a long and bitter one.
Listen, your marriage doesn't stand the remotest chance of recovery whilst OW and your husband have any contact at all. The A has to end and your husband has to get over it before you can even begin to rebuild.
Any counseling whilst an A is in progress is useless I'm afraid.
How long has this A been going on and when did you find out about it?
Who else knows other than you, H and that piece of filth he's seeing?
When we were where you are now my H told me "the attraction is intense" and that he loved her. After I issued my LRT he remained in a fog and did the very same things your H is doing. Not listening fully, cracking jokes, stonewalling. It was like he just felt he was the cat's meow. He even said to me, "I'm handsome, charismatic." I couldn't believe it and so I replied, "And what am I, chopped liver?" He was just feeling his oats. He had a very tough childhood and I'm convinced it had every thing to do with his A. OW was a bully, a real life grown up "mean girl" and she PICKED him. That is the biggest part. It was HOW she made him FEEL about himself. Those "adoring" eyes....blah blah blah....
And all this was going on while I thought it was only an EA. Actually I couldn't believe it hadn't gotten physical, but I REALLY wanted to believe in my H.
Anyway, speed 18 months later and the fog did lift, OW did move away. He wasn't really coming out of it until she left. So, it really is true that the A really has to be OVER.
I like what Abbey has had to say all though this.. They have "alien brain."
Now, my H cringes when he thinks of her. He is deeply ashamed and now realizes how whacked she was. He can even see how she manipulated him, plotted him against me. Her insidious comments putting me down. He says it was like he was caught up in this fantasy game and couldn't get out.
Listen NB, it's not over. You are in the midst of this. It is critical now that you employ all the DB techniques you can. Did you say you are getting a coach? I know you are doing counseling today, but perhaps a DB coach is the ticket right now......for YOU and you only. He's in that fog....yeah THAT one and you can't compete with ow now. Doesn't mean you won't get your M back, you just really need to know what this part is all about.
"I also feel like H is trying to turn things on me so that it seems like I'm now the one initiating a separation."
You are facing a tough decision. He may or may not hear it, but perhaps with the help of the counselor you can convey that you don't want a separation. The goal will be to have him own it, that if you separate it is because he refuses to give up the A.
Even if he doesn't get it now, it will be something he will be able to reflect on in the future and help him take responsibility for how much he has hurt you and the children. He's not in that space right now.
Like I said, I told my H I wanted him, our M, our family, but I couldn't do it if he didn't choose us. Staying was not going to be an option if he didn't end it. See, I KNEW in my heart that they would have burned each other out. It was that much of a fantasy. He was going to have to experience the reality.
For about 2 weeks he was telling me he wanted us and our M and then he would run to her. I found all the IM chats and e-mails.
It was unbelievable! We were ML like crazy and he was telling me how much he loved me and wanted us and then he'd turn around and tell her how crazy I was. We're STILL working that crap out.
In my case, it didn't hurt that she staged a crime against herself, took pictures of it, and walked in to the office and said, "Control your crazy wife." I had heard they get desperate and do stupid things, they start to reveal their true colors.
The fog and deranged, crazy behaviour will persist for as long as the affair does. His brain is flooded with love chemicals which make proper judgement and decision making impossible - it's literally a drug in his blood.
Nblost,
I have been reading your situation for awhile and you have gotten some excellent advice. I also don't usually chime in to the women on here as I don't feel my communication is the best when interacting with women on here. With you though I feel compelled to reply. I have though two perspectives to share. One is mine and the other is one I witnessed first.
For my experiences...during the first affair I walked a line similar to the one you are walking...acting like a loving spouse and trying some marital counseling. The counseling was useless as I look back in hindsight because my wife didn't want to be there. As for being the loving spouse thinking that would win her back.....all that really did was enable the situation. Eventually I focused completely on galing, myself, and my kids. Treated her as a friend, but nothing more.
During the second affair I did the same even though it was completely hidden under the guise of friendship, but I always new something was wrong.
During the third affair my wife left as it was the only option left and was something that had to happen. I focused on myself and taking care of the family.....detached completely because what she was doing was not in my families best interest. I could no longer let myself or my kids be second fiddle. It also wasn't until this time that my wife started to realize what she was giving up....until she left she always had me as a security rail to fall back on...and I am worth more than that.
For my friend, she also started doing what you are. While she was thrown out of her house, she still communicated daily with her husband and was there for sexual encounters with her husband when he requested it. After a few months of that she realized that she was just a second fiddle to him. A booty call for when he was down and unhappy for a second. The sex wasn't going to bring him back and using sex to keep the connection with him was only enabling his affair. Eventually she ceased sexual relations and limited communication. That really bothered him....really bothered him as he expected her to sit waiting for him. She gal'ed and got a life of her own. While this happened he moved on to a second affair, which eventually ended. It was after this affair ended that he realized what he had given up because his wife wasn't right there for him. I still worry for her as I don't believe he has reached the end of his journey, but that is her issue to deal with now.
In conclusion, until you severe the ties he will not realize what he has. I am not saying to give up on your marriage....more I am saying set boundaries that are based on reality. Would you sleep with a man who was in a relationship with another woman? The truth is right now you are doing that. He is in a relationship with the OW....and you are in reality now the OW.
Yes...he will find ways to turn everything into your fault. That is pretty much the script for any affair. It is mentally easier to blame everyone else for your actions than accept responsibility for them. It is for this reason, that you need to detach and gal. While you do have your part in the collapse of the marriage, it will be hard to reconcile until he accepts his responsibilities in what has happened.
BE strong, gal, and set some boundaries that lay with your personal values......The road will get easier...I promise you that.
Wow, thanks everyone. These words of wisdom are exactly what I need to stay strong in counseling today. I agree...the A has to end and he can't continue to be enabled.
I also agree that this isn't over. H came back from his football game yesterday and was attracted to me. He also helped do several things for the kids this morning and he cancelled a work meeting to make it to counseling today. I think it's likely all an effort to remain on his fence...but at least he's not completely on OW's side of the fence yet.
GH, affair started at the end of July 2011. (woman he met on an airplane) I found out 9/15/2011. H was completely different once the A started (stopped having sex with me, told me he needed to leave, was cold/hostile, etc.) I found out by checking his cell phone records and reverse looking up the phone number that he was constantly texting with. Upon discovery, we went to one counseling session and our counselor told him he needed to be honest with me. That night, he told me it was a EA/PA and he couldn't give it up. His constant theme has been...he can't give up the A, but he doesn't know if he wants to give up the marriage. However, he has now taken the A more secretive and he took OW on at least one vacation in December (which he won't admit).
I've told a few of my friends about the A for support. Only one of H's friends knows. (He's a mutual friend who noticed I was upset and pushed me to tell him what was wrong). So, H is also under pressure that he's still in a very secret world. And, H is the type of guy who everyone LOVES--he's funny, giving, sweet...so, I have to think on some level...he's also worried about disclosure. (and, "unfortunately" for him, I'm the type of wife that people also like...I've always been there for him, I'm fun, nice, I can hang out with the guys and they can be themselves, etc...no one is going to understand what he's done)
And, our three little girls don't know what he's done and he's commented that we could try to recover from this and hopefully they'll never feel the impact.
So, I have a foggy/crazy/lying H...but am I in the worst possible situation? Not really...I think there's still a chance for us.
I talk to a DB coach at lunchtime today (prior to the MC session). Should be good to get her perspective too.
How about you? How long would you be prepared to share your husband with another woman?
This is extraordinarily tough, I know. Been there and done that for 18 months then struggled with violent thought towards my wife for a couple of years afterwards. Good luck with the DB coach. Mine (Jodie) really, really helped me in my darkest hours.
Hang in there and love those three little girls. Your H is incapable at the moment of realizing what he's doing to you.
Talked to DB coach (Laurie). She thought I should go into counseling and see if we can get H to start talking first. Don't push him into a corner and try not to attack/complain about his behavior. See where he stands when he doesn't feel threatened. If he is confused or unsure where he stands, see if we can get more counseling sessions or if he should go alone.
I told her I was near the end of my rope and she said I sounded like I was strong and ready to take a next step if needed. I told her I felt like I could let H have another week or two if he is moving in the right direction--but I can't go on like this.
(One of her ideas was to tell the kids he's moving to OW's city for work for a month or two but keep it quiet and not officially separate...I said that would just continue to enable him and he'd probably love that)
I think the last 6 months has given me a chance to get my strength up and I can be ready to move on if I need to.
I will post after our MC session and let you know how it goes. I feel a sense of impending doom...but we'll see.
Thinking of you NB....<<<<HUGS>>>>
Quick update since H is still home...day 10!
Went to MC. I don't feel like we made a lot of progress, but H talked first and shared his indecision around what he wants to do. He can't decide. He also explained again why he doesn't want to share anything with me about the A. He feels like if he shares specifics...I'll forever be haunted by them. The counselor and I both tried to tell him that I'm already haunted by the unknown, and I would eventually forgive him and move on. I think the MC made some good points about how he thinks we can improve our marriage and we can overcome this...but, we didn't tackle much in terms of our issues. I think that's okay and hopefully made MC less threatening to H.
H spent the last 25 minutes of our hour alone with the MC. He called me right afterwards and said it wasn't that helpful. He just feels like he has a huge, difficult decision to make and he isn't sure that talking is helping him. We talked for about a half hour and I think I did a good job remaining very quiet and calm.
H said maybe we should separate. He doesn't feel like he can give up his A. He'll be too bitter. (Really...let's bring the three of us together and see who is the most bitter???!) We started talking about separation and I said I'll support that. I also said I can't really help with his decision, but I've tried to help throughout this to support him and be there for him. I also believe in our family and our marriage. That seemed to give H some pause and make him a little sad.
H seemed quiet and more sad than usual at the end of our conversation (granted, over the phone so hard to tell...although sometimes I think we do better over the phone). I felt like it was a small victory that he didn't say anything too defensive or crazy, and he seemed somewhat emotional.
I did point out the challenge he has in comparing his "old" wife of 12 years to a new affair. H still doesn't seem to "get it". He claims that he and the OW have had to deal with reality in their relationship. (I said that was good, but it seems like they'll have more reality at some point when he tells people about the relationship or they meet each other's kids). Excuse me, but how do you have reality when you each have three kids but the kids have NEVER entered into your dating life? H also doesn't know when OW will get divorced. He also said in MC that they haven't talked about a future...although I'm not sure I believe that.
Anyway, we may very well separate...but I feel a sense of calm. I think I feel better knowing he's conflicted and has some sadness. H also is hoping we can still do things as a family and maybe go to counseling once a month while we are separated...I didn't say anything, but I think I'd do counseling but he'd need to have the kids alone to make reality sink in.
H came home just now (had to go back to work after the MC session). We had a family tickle game and H got on top of me and tickled me with the kids. He's now helping to put them to bed. There's some part of him that's trying...I just wish he could see the light before it's too late.
I just really think if you are conflicted....please, give your family a chance?!?
Thanks all for your support.
Been waiting with abated breath.....You H said MC "it wasn't that helpful," but I would not be too sure of that. Spending 25 minutes alone with counselor must have surely been an eventful one. Let's assume that he told the counselor about the A. It's making a tiny crack in the darkness of secrecy and exposing it to the light.
In any event, the motion ton expose it has started. It will be really interesting to see if this thing can survive the light.
4%....4% of A turn into a long-term R and out of those only 40% last.
I'm curious about his comment that he'll be too bitter. Bitter about what? Do you have an idea?
You are now the ow, but YOU have HIS babies. Like you said, you are a package deal.
Yeah, we'll see. I do think he's torn, but hard to know where things will end up.
H is leaving today. I am suspicious again on his plans. He needs to go to a fun city for work today and I get the impression that OW could be meeting him there. He won't say when he's coming back and it doesn't really make sense that he'd fly to her city for work for just a Friday. Is it reasonable for me to ask him? Seems like it given the kids, although maybe I should just act like I don't care.
"Bitter"--I think he had a hard time telling me why he wouldn't want to give up the affair, so I'm not sure if "bitter" is exactly his feeling. But, I would guess he'd be angry at me and upset that he'd have to give it up. From everything I've read, I think this is normal and the bitter feeling would go away as he emerged from the fog and worked on the marriage.
I've also given him the option that if he'd be willing to give up the A temporarily...we could work on our marriage for 2-3 months and if things aren't improving...he could go back to the A. He can't seem to be able to do that. (I've read about this approach in a couple books--you hope the A addiction goes away during the 3 month period and enough of the good of the marriage can start to emerge...but, it's risky)
H kept touching me last night (non-sexually) or holding me. I read something about the power of attachment versus attraction and I think he must be feeling some of that attachment.
Only you can decide when you've had a long enough time to show him your positive changes, and when it is time to kick him out into the cold harsh reality of his choices.
DBing is NOT about being a doormat - when a man is carrying on an ongoing affair right in front of you, and tells you he's not willing to give it up - it may be time to splash some cold water on his fantasy.
BTW - does this woman's husband know about the affair?
I would suggest you start planning for your future. See an attorney to get an idea of what your financial position would be. Squirrel away some emergency cash, or if you can't, at least stock the pantry with lots of canned goods in case he goes off the deep end and you need to squeak by until a support order is in place. Start going out with friends and building your own social life. Think about what you might do for a living if you were single.
I'm NOT saying it is hopeless or over - quite the opposite, I suspect when he has to face reality he's likely to want to come home. He's just caught up in the intoxicating infatuation phase. And we all wish he would come to his senses before the kids have to hear anything about it. But I think unfortunately this is not going to be that simple, he sounds like a guy who has to be woken up out of fantasyland. (And I have to ask you - was he ALWAYS this monumentally selfish? He would be "bitter" if not allowed to continue his affair? Really????)
So - now is the time to GAL, create the life for YOU that YOU want, take up new things, make new friends. Get your financial ducks in a row just in case. Get a makeover, cut your hair, lose weight if you need to. Create a little mystery - don't date, but it's ok to let him think you MIGHT be going places where you MIGHT meet other men when he's out of town. (Stupid but true, the "feelings" for you often kick back in when they realize they could lose you to another man).
Right now he has all the power as you are waiting for him to choose. It may be time to take that power away.
Just talked to H, he's on his way to the airport. Sounds like he'll be back on Sunday. (but he wouldn't really tell me and I didn't ask)
He talked to our MC again this morning. Still can't decide which relationship he wants and doesn't feel like talking will help him.
He feels like if he gives up the A, he'll be angry and he thinks he won't be able to deal with me and re-commit to me. I told him that was valid and I don't want him to come back if he doesn't want to. However, I did say I'd read cases where the straying H felt that way, but then changed as counseling started and the A started to fade. I think I did a pretty good job being detached in our conversation, although I told him that I wish we could work on things and didn't have to put our kids through this.
He said again he can't talk to me about the A. I told him that I already believe the worst about his new relationship (they love each other, they talk about getting married, etc) and I've read enough about how wonderful affairs are that I doubt he could hurt me that much more by telling me things. He didn't confirm or deny that my suspicions were right or wrong.
He feels like separation may be the answer. Once again, I said that is okay. It is interesting that when we start talking about it, the logistics seem hard for him.
H again seemed sad when we got off the phone. I feel a mix of true sadness and also a bit of relief.
I think the kids are powerful in this. Maybe I'm being overly dramatic, but I think looking your 4, 8 and 10 year old daughters in the faces and telling them you are leaving is going to be very hard. I'm sure any age is hard...but our girls are at such an idealistic stage. :-(
I do believe this may be what it takes though. So, I'm trying to stay strong.
Also, KML, I am lucky from the perspective that I have a good job and our largest bank account is only in my name. I feel good financially except for the issue that I know H is spending money on the A.
I'm thin (was average before this and now have lost 20 pounds) and people say I'm attractive and I look young for 43. I am growing my hair longer again (H likes it long but I kept it more shoulder length for work/professional reasons)
I did join match.come a couple months ago just to see who was out there and I have met a couple guys through friends who could be possibilities for dating. I agree though, I don't think I'm ready to date as much as I should start putting myself "out there" in terms of making friends and building a social life that doesn't revolve around married couples and families.
I need to be reminded of that, so thanks for your comments.
Also also KML, he wasn't ever this selfish before. In fact, I sometimes wonder if the A feels so good to him because he's put work and family first for too long.
And, the OW's husband apparently does know. They are separated so I think she has permission to date and they seem to share their kids. OW's friends also know. My only snarky comment today was that they really seem like a quality group of women. (One of them is FB friends with H and has commented about how cute our family photos are...)
I did also tell my H...this is why affairs are bad. It's an impossible situation and likely everyone ends up getting destroyed.
And, the OW's husband apparently does know. They are separated so I think she has permission to date and they seem to share their kids. OW's friends also know.
Don't be at all surprised if you end up finding out that this isn't true
at all. Do you know this independently, or did your husband tell you this?
Starsky
So.....how about a little creative staging? Next time H comes home there's a bouquet of red roses, a day or two old? If H asks, you can pause guiltily and then say "Oh, I bought them for myself" - lol, he won't believe you.
When he does get home - be dressed up and ready to go out "dancing with friend X". Look hot. Wave bye bye as you head out the door (even if you have to just sit at a starbucks and read, or go to a movie alone - let him think you're out dancing. If you looked especially good, he'll spend the evening envisioning other men hitting on you.)
Buy some new super-sexy undies. And only wear them when you're going out "dancing". Haha
P.S. I'm glad you're in good shape financially. Do keep an eye on the credit cards though to make sure H isn't running up some big debt wining and dining OW that you might be stuck with half of.
Stay strong Nblost!
Like kml said, GAL, get your finances in order, do whatever you need to do to be independant.
Expect the best, plan for the worst, and prepare to be surprised. -- Denis Waitley
I think the kids are powerful in this. Maybe I'm being overly dramatic, but I think looking your 4, 8 and 10 year old daughters in the faces and telling them you are leaving is going to be very hard. I'm sure any age is hard...but our girls are at such an idealistic stage. :-(
You're not being dramatic at all. My eldest daughter just got married this summer. I walked her down the aisle with pride, and with the knowledge that no matter what gets thrown in her and her H's way, M is a lifelong commitment. My W has a different take on it, but I'm still committed.
Or maybe I just should be committed
P.S. I'm not trying to take anything away from our courageous DB-ers who couldn't convince their spouses to commit. Ultimately, it takes commitment on both sides.
"Expect the best, plan for the worst, and prepare to be surprised. -- Denis Waitley " This is it NB.
IMHO I'd stop pointing out the readings. He's in a space where it really doesn't matter how much you know, what the stats are..... He has to play this out. I think you have no choice but to let go.
I know this $u#ks!<<<<HUGS>>>>
There is something more in this for him than just another woman....things you've said about him make me think this.
She is NOT the answer to what he is seeking in himself. He just thinks she is right now. The really sad thing will be if he loses you.
If you find the right opportunity, though, you can always remind him that a woman who will cheat WITH him will also cheat ON him lol.
NB,
My heart goes out to you, it really does.
H said maybe we should separate.
So he can carry on his affair with OW without any interference.
He doesn't feel like he can give up his A.
Of course he doesn't. He is addicted, completely and totally - at six months into his affair he will be utterly lost in thick, pea soup fog.
All about him and completely textbook i.e. as per the script.
We started talking about separation and I said I'll support that.
Good.
I did point out the challenge he has in comparing his "old" wife of 12 years to a new affair. H still doesn't seem to "get it".
OK.
You have identified a behaviour which doesn't work i.e. the “pointing things out”. So stop doing it. Remember the No. 1 rule of DBing –
do what works, reject what doesn't work. And rule No. 2 is remember Rule No. 1.
He isn’t going to “get it” for some time. His brain is flooded with love chemicals which unfortunately makes sound judgment impossible until further notice. He literally is bodily incapable of “getting it” and will be until/unless the affair ends.
He claims that he and the OW have had to deal with reality in their relationship.
Seriously,
let them. The reality of their relationship will be far different than their respective fantasies are currently. There’s nothing like a good, hard dose of reality to poison fantasy and if the person is deeply lost in the fantasy then it is necessary. Think addicts hitting “rock bottom”.
The reality of not having you, his loving wife, around to meet his needs that OW never could is something he hasn’t yet had to deal with.
H also doesn't know when OW will get divorced.
Does he know
if OW and her hubby are getting divorced?
I think I feel better knowing he's conflicted and has some sadness.
His being conflicted is good. A good sign.
H also is hoping we can still do things as a family
Those, among others, are the needs I was talking about, the ones which OW could never fill.
He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Lovingly ensure that he doesn’t get to have his cake.
… and maybe go to counseling once a month while we are separated
Forget about it if the affair is still in place. If he is still having his A whilst you’re in counseling he’ll just lie to you and the counselor. People in affairs get extraordinarily good at lying to everyone about everything. They even get good at deceiving themselves. That is consistent with virtually every situation I have ever read on boards like this.
Thanks all for your support.
You’re more than welcome. Please take care of yourself and your little girls, and stay strong.
Thanks GH! All makes sense. I keep hoping the six month mark may mean the fog could start to lift...but I think it's a challenge because they are "sort of" long distance and I think H's job and her kids keep them apart some of the time he is in her city.
I guess I do sense a subtle change and I think it is coming from the thought of losing me and the family.
August--affair started/secret. H could only say, "I am dead inside, I need to get out of here"
September--affair discovered. H thought separating made a lot of sense. He seemed upbeat about getting a fun bachelor pad.
October--affair continues. H said he'd start looking for his own place when I said I couldn't do this anymore. He didn't do anything.
November--H said he loved me and the kids and didn't want to move.
December--same
January--see above
I think everyone on here is right that I need to make him see the reality of living alone.
H has always wanted a "string" back to me in case the affair didn't work out. I think having us go to counseling once a month may be that string.
I got some of my GAL back yesterday...back at work, fun lunch with a coworker, hung out with kids, surfed around on match.com (I'm not going to date, but it's fun to look and helps to see there are other fish in the sea). I think over the holidays and being on our trip with H...couldn't do as much of that.
One place where I feel like I'm not totally DB-ing...H said it seemed like I had gotten more distant during his affair which seemed like how our marriage always was. I'm not going overboard, but I'm trying to stay a bit warmer rather than being hard core LRT. For example, H was texting us a lot yesterday and I wasn't overly responsive...but at night, I said, "I miss having you home, good night"...he responded with several more texts about what he was doing and then said, "I miss being there too".
I guess it's DB-ing if it's a 180...although I feel like I'm walking a fine line with it so don't want to be a total 180.
I am hanging in there...I feel sad thinking about separating, but yet, I think I also welcome a move in a direction. And, I do keep coming back to what you are all saying...he'll never wake up if he can stay on his foggy fence.
Hi NB,
I keep hoping the six month mark may mean the fog could start to lift...
It’s good to have hope, but hope itself isn’t a plan.
I think it's a challenge because they are "sort of" long distance and I think H's job and her kids keep them apart some of the time he is in her city.
They’re having an affair and they’re addicts. They
will find the time to have an affair.
My W’s EA/PA was as long distance as you can possibly get. We lived in Australia and the other person in England, 10,000 miles apart. It didn’t stop them.
I guess I do sense a subtle change and I think it is coming from the thought of losing me and the family.
The reality is beginning to dawn on him.
Lovingly allow the Reality Stick to do him as much damage as possible. If and when the affair ends he will likely be a total wreck for some time but it's in this broken state that human beings are most likely to make the changes necessary to have a thriving marriage.
I think everyone on here is right that I need to make him see the reality of living alone.
Please don’t try to “make him see it” not literally, rather
allow him to see it.
H has always wanted a "string" back to me in case the affair didn't work out. I think having us go to counseling once a month may be that string.
So did my W and she went nuts when I took it away from her. We were living in Europe at the time and she moved in with her affair partner, all the while maintaining regular contact with me, as well as sex.
She went nuts when I told her I wouldn’t have it anymore, moved back to Australia and severed all contact with her.
Your husband wants a “string” back to you because you’re his loving wife and the mother of his children. His “family” in other words.
I got some of my GAL back yesterday...back at work, fun lunch with a coworker, hung out with kids, surfed around on match.com (I'm not going to date, but it's fun to look and helps to see there are other fish in the sea). I think over the holidays and being on our trip with H...couldn't do as much of that.
Good.
But tread carefully looking around on dating sites. When we’re done over by our spouses the temptation for us to do the same is enormous.
One place where I feel like I'm not totally DB-ing...H said it seemed like I had gotten more distant during his affair which seemed like how our marriage always was.
“DBing” is whatever works.
I'm not going overboard, but I'm trying to stay a bit warmer rather than being hard core LRT. For example, H was texting us a lot yesterday and I wasn't overly responsive...but at night, I said, "I miss having you home, good night"...he responded with several more texts about what he was doing and then said, "I miss being there too".
If you’re satisfied with how this approach is working for you, keep doing it.
I guess it's DB-ing if it's a 180...although I feel like I'm walking a fine line with it so don't want to be a total 180.
Again, “DBing” is whatever works. A 180 is one of several approaches in the arsenal. But, for it to be worth doing, it has to work.
I am hanging in there...I feel sad thinking about separating, but yet, I think I also welcome a move in a direction. And, I do keep coming back to what you are all saying...he'll never wake up if he can stay on his foggy fence.
No he will not. I can promise you that.
Oh, I think you misinterpreted what I meant by their time to have the A. Yes, they clearly make the time to have the A and it's I'm sure their top priority...I just meant that unfortunately, they don't have unlimited access to each other...so I think it'll take longer for the fantasy to wear away. When H says they've had to deal with reality, I have to laugh inside because their six combined kids haven't entered the equation yet. (sorry, but when you have three kids under 10...that's a pretty big factor in life)
Yep, I feel like I've been good about not showing him books or articles I've read. He knows I have several books about affairs on my ipad and he's welcome to read them if he wants to. I do need to be careful that I don't throw too many facts/stats at him. I don't mind that I've done a small amount of that recently...I wlll back off.
I'm not sure exactly what works and what doesn't. I think it's a DB approach with a certain amount of flexibility.
I agree too...the enabling has to stop and hopefully he's starting to think more about the reality of splitting. (Truly too, if we split and he doesn't wake up? That is a huge sign for me that I need to start moving on too)
Thanks again...your insights are hugely helpful.
GH31 gave you some excellent advice but I just want to comment on one part:
Originally Posted By: Nblost
I did point out the challenge he has in comparing his "old" wife of 12 years to a new affair. H still doesn't seem to "get it".
OK.
You have identified a behaviour which doesn't work i.e. the “pointing things out”. So stop doing it. Remember the No. 1 rule of DBing – do what works, reject what doesn't work. And rule No. 2 is remember Rule No. 1.
He isn’t going to “get it” for some time. His brain is flooded with love chemicals which unfortunately makes sound judgment impossible until further notice. He literally is bodily incapable of “getting it” and will be until/unless the affair ends.
He definitely won't "get it" right now - but don't think that those comments don't enter his brain. It's like planting a seed. It's not going to sprout right away - but if he ever comes out of the fog, you may be surprised which of your comments really stuck. I think it's okay to point out to him that this is typical behavior - depressed, temporarily relieved by the brain chemicals and ezxcitement of an affair, but in the long run, he'll be back in the same place if he doesn't work on his stuff. So why not work on his stuff with his loving faithful wife and family?
He will deny it, but believe me, the occasional statement like that can have a gradual effect. Also just stating that it is possible to fall back in love with your spouse is something they need to hear once.
Nblost,
I see a reoccurring theme in your husbands behavior that appears to be affecting how you deal with things. Often through out your posts I read how your husband has made comments about how distant you were, how unloving you were, how the sex wasn't "good enough", or frequent enough. I didn't pull quotes from your posts as time is short, but this is a feeling I get from your posts. Almost a passive-aggressive guilt trip laying the blame for his actions on your feet.
The questions is though...do YOU feel that you were a good wife? Were you loving enough, there enough for him, etc. If you were an outsider looking at the marriage prior to all this, do YOU feel that you would see a wife giving it all?
Starsky...good question.
I think I know because H told me when he first met OW. They met on a plane and she was coming to our area for a girls trip. He actually told me that she and her friends seemed like really fun women and it'd be cool if I could go out with them. I think he also mentioned at that point that one of them was going through a divorce. (I believe they swapped phone numbers at this point and H was also telling the group to give one of his friends a call who lived in the fun city the "girls" were visiting). At that point, he had no reason to lie.
I believe OW is separated because he was texting her at one point when I saw the texts and telling her he would stay with her versus at a hotel. I believe they stay at her house quite a bit when she doesn't have her kids. (Actually, I know this from seeing receipts for a gas station by her house which is nowhere near his work or typical hotel)
H also told me at one point that she and her "ex" get along well.
I guess I also believe she has some freedom because I know for a fact that they went on a 3 day vacation the week before Christmas (saw receipts for her ticket).
But, I can also tell from public data that she isn't officially divorced yet.
I actually don't think H has lied to me a lot when he actually says something...he's more a master of the "lies of omission" and he's admitted that. I think when he does say something (which is rare), it tends to be true although usually not the level of detail I would need to really know the truth.
I guess I'm not sure it matters anyway...I could text or email OW right now if I wanted to...but I've chosen not to confront her and give her that much power.
LFW, good question.
1) I believe H is laying more blame on me right now than is fair. I think that's the affair fog erasing his good memories and convincing him our marriage has always been "bad".
2) But...no, if I had looked at our marriage a year ago...I would have said neither of us was trying. H has always felt our marriage was sex starved from his perspective. He also felt I wasn't an "intimate" person. OW is all of that.
I think the huge mistakes we made were:
--I told H that I thought our marriage was typical based on everyone I knew. We had three kids, busy lives and so it didn't surprise me that we weren't having sex more than once or so a week. I also felt like he wasn't putting any effort into treating me special...I can't remember the last time (maybe 10 years ago?) that he asked me on a "date". This upset H because he felt I wasn't listening to him or trying (I agree and I have apologized to him for this)
--H made the mistake of labelling me in a way that made me feel like a "sexless" person and made me insecure. I gave up and was feeling like I couldn't meet his needs.
We should have gone to therapy and come up with forward looking solutions. I think we also fit the mold of what MWD talks about in Sex Starved Marriage...a vicious cycle.
I think we both felt empty inside before his A. I know I could have been susceptible to one as well and I've told him that. We had become more like roommates and we were missing the connection.
Oddly, now that his A is happening...we actually sleep more entwined and hold each other much more than we ever did before the A. Our occasional "romantic" encounters are hotter. (I've read that's my hormones being more in overdrive) I am trying in a mellow way to be more affectionate and caring. H told me last week that it's interesting...it's like our roles have changed and I'm now the one that wants sex with him.
Since he's been with OW, he won't have sex with me (which I think is for the best) but we do everything else up to that point. Part of me wants to show him I can be different...but I know part of me also doesn't mind having "ammo" against the OW or the knowledge that even though he's with OW...he's still coming home and with his wife. While I don't think I would confront OW at any point, it helps me mentally to know I could likely throw a couple things at her that H hasn't told her. (I kind of doubt he tells her he comes home and gets naked with his wife)
Can anyone else tell I keep needing to vent? Thank goodness for this board!
N,
Good answer for #1....and his portrayal of the marriage is definitely script fog behavior....
The #2 answer bothers me....I asked YOU how YOU felt about how you were as a spouse. But you then go into how your husband felt about everything. It started out good with admitting you weren't trying...and as those unlucky enough on this board know...marriage is constant work and when you stop trying and doing the work bad things happen.
The next paragraph really has me confused. First, most of the couples I know would consider once a week a blessing, but in reality it is up to the couple to find that balance. If one person wants it everyday and the other once a week...then once a week is it. That is life regretfully. But then you go into expressing yourself (bravo) in that you didn't feel special or cherished....and that upset your husband enough that you apologized. Why would you apologize for how you feel/felt?
The vicious circle of not working on the marriage hard enough....and the empty feeling that comes about from that cycle. Remember that cycle...and whatever happens down the road with your husband or another relationship....remember it takes work and learn from the past so you don't relive it.
The last two paragraphs.....Do you think that is a change in your overall relationship or just a change in how you are going about the relationship and he is reaping the fruits? As for the OW knowing about the quasi-sex, of course she does not know because she would drop him like a rotten tomato. For my friend I mentioned above, her husband had setup an affair and communication routine with her prior to her leaving so his girlfriend wouldn't know. He was getting the milk without taking care of the herd so to speak.
In the end though Nblost...I want to know more about YOU....not about him or his feelings on how the marriage was. I even would like to hear what you want out of a marriage?
Starsky...good question.
I think I know because H told me when he first met OW. They met on a plane and she was coming to our area for a girls trip. He actually told me that she and her friends seemed like really fun women and it'd be cool if I could go out with them. I think he also mentioned at that point that one of them was going through a divorce. (I believe they swapped phone numbers at this point and H was also telling the group to give one of his friends a call who lived in the fun city the "girls" were visiting). At that point, he had no reason to lie.
Possibly.
But she probably did.Please don't be naive re: your husband's honesty with you. I've never seen someone caught up in an affair yet that DIDN'T lie. Ever.
Starsky
NB,
You vent all you want. That's what this board is for.
And yes, I would bet the house that your husband has lied through his teeth to OW as well as you. Deception is essential for the propagation of an affair.
Take care,
GH31
LFW, you are asking great questions.
To clarify one thing, I've never apologized to H for being upset about him not treating me well. I apologized to him that I didn't listen to him enough when he told me what he needed in the relationship. That came out wrong with how I positioned my sentences.
H would say once a week isn't enough (and I'd agree with him that it wasn't always once a week and I don't think we had the right level of intimacy to make that once a week as fantastic as you'd want). H is very HD although part of it may have been him searching for a lot more warmth, intimacy, etc.
As for how I feel...wow...you are right that I have been avoiding that. Here's how I felt in the marriage.
--H traveled for work or worked late almost every night. I felt ignored and like it was unfair that I had to leave my job (which pays more) to get home every night for daycare or the nanny.
--When H did get home, he often got back on his computer and wasn't very social with me.
--Most Friday nights, I had a hard time predicting if H would be home on time to do something social. So, we didn't do a lot of things socially with other couples or families (since we pretty much just had Saturday nights which defaulted more to family nights)
--H had stopped doing sweet, loving things for me. Gifts were usually picked up on the way home for anything like valentine's day or my birthday. For Christmas last year, he went to a department store to buy the robe I told him to buy with 1 minute to spare until the store closed on Christmas Eve.
--H doesn't really like to travel, I do. I planned all of our vacations.
--H wasn't athletic or in shape until his A. (well, he wasn't really that out of shape, but there were times where he was a bit overweight and also more lazy/sleeping in around the house). He does like doing certain sports and I'm not into some of them.
--H often bought things without telling me or asking. He was generally a pretty cheap guy, so not saying he over-spent and fortunately, we've always had good incomes. But, we didn't have a true partnership around money.
--H had always been great with the kids. He's fun and cares a lot about them. He never hesitated to do any childcare things and sometimes was more caring than me about staying up with them when they were sick, etc.
--H was always someone I could talk to. He was a good friend and we had a lot in common (similar families, professional lives, interests). However, with three kids and rare times where we spent time alone...we had stopped talking.
--H wasn't a guy who went off to play golf or watched a lot of sports, so I did appreciate he was open to doing things on weekends or being home.
--I felt like H was honest and a good person. (key word = was)
--H is funny/fun and I enjoyed introducing him to people as my husband. There was something about us that was a pretty good match when we were having fun.
The huge risk in trying to rebuild our marriage (assuming we have the chance) will be in getting H to meet my needs. He has always believed marriage should be very passionate if you've found the right person. He doesn't think it should be a lot of work.
So, should I try? Should I hold on knowing that on top of these issues...he's now had a 5 month long affair...most of it while I knew?
I think I am clinging to:
--We have three young kids who want their parents to be together.
--We have an underlying friendship (even through the A, some people have been amazed at how we can interact)
--Our families and lives are combined.
--I am insecure about my ability to find someone else and I like being married.
On your other questions about our relationship now...I think it's a combination of:
--H is still attached to me and wants to keep me somewhat happy
--H is horny
--I want to show him that I have sexual feelings.
I don't think it's bad. I'm the wife, and I don't feel used. If H is conflicted, I could see where it is coming from. I guess I feel this way because there is also an emotional element to it. He holds me afterwards and I feel like there are feelings there.
So, do I feel great about how our marriage was? No. I think that has partially helped me understand the A and somewhat forgive it (I haven't forgiven, but it's not like everything was perfect and H did something completely malicious). But, I do need things to change for me to be happy.
I read somewhere it would be easier to start over than mend the marriage. I can see that.
N,
I disagree with that last statement and the statistics actually prove it. A greater percentage of second marriages fail than first marriages, an even great percent with the third marriage, etc. The reason in my mind is very clear....because people fail to do two things;
1-Define what they truly want out of a marriage
2-They never accept their part in the failed marriage
We now live in a society that doesn't reward personal responsibility....the schools are too hard, everybody is a winner, and hard work isn't rewarded but almost frowned upon. So why should it be different in a failed marriage...it is always the other spouses fault. I am not a religious man, but they had it right when they said he who hasn't sinned can through the first stone. Hence in our world the biggest step we can make is not blaming the runaway spouse, but instead looking in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently?". Now that doesn't mean you are the cause of his actions....just taking ownership in our part of what has happened. Someday your husband will have the same revelation about his actions....not right now because he is being distracted and living the happy live. IN all the cases of affairs on here that eventually happens sometimes in months, sometimes years regretfully. Their revelation time is out of our control.
What you posted above was by far the best posting you have done yet....truly DB'ing and saying what YOU want.
After three years on this site.....I have lots of great questions and every now and then an insightful opinion. The one thing I will tell you is truly embracing DB'ing will change your life. Not just how you attempt to win your husband back, but how you interact with others and see the world.
And yes Virginia...Sometimes people even get their spouse back...and a whole new marriage
I think my biggest fear (hopefully irrational but definitely based on my increased insecurities since the A) is that H has somehow found someone better than me who can make him happier. He'll treat her better because she treats him better and off they'll go.
And, I end up alone with three kids.
People say I'm crazy to think this, but I think it's driving at least some (maybe a lot) of my fight for our marriage.
N...
That statement hit home with me....right to the gut...
Im amways imagining that my H isnt interested in me because OW is doing what i should have...makeing him happy, and why would they give that up??...he treats her well, she treats him well...theyll live happily ever after...thats the most painfull..and if i were in YOUR position id fight like hell...
ITM,
I wish I had something tangible to fight. I think I just decided we need to separate. Our MC called me to set up an appointment for Monday and his belief is that H is truly on the fence. However, he doesn't think H wants to hurt me...and so he'll never get off.
He thinks H is waiting for me to make a move or he'll continue like this forever. Why change? He has the best of both worlds. And, we doubt OW will cave before me...she is going through a divorce and likely in no rush to settle down again.
MC also thinks H isn't telling me things because he doesn't want to hurt me. Who wants to tell the mother of their children that they're having a great time without her every weekend with another woman?
MC also doesn't think H is unusual.
Sad, yes. But, just more of the same. Given I don't know where H is this weekend or when he is coming home...it feels like my decision is made.
Too bad I don't know when H will be home so I knew when we'd be able to talk about this in person. UGH!!!
One other question since I'm reaching this key point.
I assume everyone agrees I should not reach out to OW? I have her email address or could text her. I'm not even close to doing it...but is there any thing I could say to help my cause?
I don't think so...I think it gives her too much power. However, maybe there's something I say once I know I have even less to lose? Still thinking it's probably too risky.
"Hi, I'm H's wife. I feel like we should know each other from being in this "threesome" over the past several months. I'm sure H will tell you that we've decided to separate. I'm tired of all the lies and I'm sure you are too. This will be a really tough time for our family and I'd appreciate it if you could give H time to be here for his girls to help them deal with this".
Naw, don't do it.
You see - the problem is, usually it will make the H rush to the "defense" of his poor traumatized OW. And let's face it, a separated woman who picks up a married man when she's on an airplane - do you really think she's going to have a conscience?
I only know of one incident when confronting the OW did any good. An acquaintance of mine found out her husband was having an affair with some young thing at the hospital where he worked. She went down there and read her the riot act - and the affair stopped.
BUT - she's a strong beautiful woman with everything going for her - including confidence - and the OW was a wimpy young thing who couldn't hold a candle to her really.
(I do remember my ex-husband talking admiringly about her feat at the time lol).
But unless you have reason to believe your H has told her some whoppers (beyond the ordinary "our marriage was already dead" stuff) then I don't see any good coming out of talking to her. And if she was the kind of good person who would back off and give your marriage a chance - well, she wouldn't be having an affair with a married man with three kids, now, would she???
I agree....don't. It does you no good. It's better to keep your dignity.
If you did decide to do it against the advice here don't say "hi" say something like "I have decided to separate from H because of all his lies....I would expect you not interfere with H ability to be available for our children."
Anyway....stay strong.
Luv
Btw - if you have a good female friend, get a bottle of wine and rent She-Devil with Roseanne Barr and Meryl Streep and watch it with her. Not exactly DB, but funny as all get out - Roseanne as the jilted wife exacting her revenge on her philandering hubby.
Starsky, you are right, I don't know for sure. I just really sense she is separated based on how often they get together, do vacations etc. Very much seems like a woman who has her kids 50% of the time. (I do know for sure she has 3 kids)
Separation feels much more real. H told his sister last night (who will be visiting next month from abroad) that I won't be at the family gathering they are planning. He didn't tell her details. He said he told her that because I had said I wouldn't be there. I reminded him that the only reason I won't be there is because he is having an affair. We had some text messages in the middle of the night last night about needing to talk more when H gets home about logistics.
I feel sad/torn up inside. I hope H feels some of the same emotions (although not sure much can penetrate his fog)
Before I joined DB I actually did go and confront ow.........AND H................TWICE!
I can't tell you how many times I've played those scenes over in my head and how I would have done them differently.
Ever read, My Husband's Affair Was The Best Thing That Happened To Me?
That seems like the only book I haven't read on affairs. I've read some snippets from it and part of me agrees with the title. You recommend it?
I texted H and he doesn't know when he'll be back here yet. (I believe he'll be back by Monday because we have a counseling appointment and he agreed to go). He sees OW for the first time tonight in 2 weeks...blah.
We now live in a society that doesn't reward personal responsibility....the schools are too hard, everybody is a winner, and hard work isn't rewarded but almost frowned upon. So why should it be different in a failed marriage...it is always the other spouses fault. I am not a religious man, but they had it right when they said he who hasn't sinned can throw the first stone. Hence in our world the biggest step we can make is not blaming the runaway spouse, but instead looking in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently?". Now that doesn't mean you are the cause of his actions....just taking ownership in our part of what has happened.
Wow, LFW. This is great! I'm going to post it over on my thread, so I can easily refer to it. It's something I've always believed, but you put it so eloquently into words! Thank you!
It's a bit counter to DB, but I liked the notion that her H was going to have to explain to the kids why he was leaving.....and not her.
I also liked how she explained to ow that she would always be a part of him.
Interesting...I will read it. I like reading a mix of stuff on affairs sine I don't think they are as easy as just a marital problem.
I do need to reread DB too. I feel like I will need to re-ground myself before the separation. I feel kind of lost.
It's a bit counter to DB, but I liked the notion that her H was going to have to explain to the kids why he was leaving.....and not her.
I also liked how she explained to ow that she would always be a part of him.
I don't think it's counter to DB at all. This doesn't constitute confronting H, whining, or anything of that sort. H must take responsibility for his actions. Nblost doesn't have to actively participate in anything that runs counter to her beliefs. If she were to do so, she’d be taking responsibility for
his actions. Nblost only has to take responsibity for
her actions. I think that’s why MynameisMZ “likes the notion.”
Dunno about talking to OW, though. It may have felt good to say it, and it probably didn’t do any harm, but I think I’d avoid making a habit of it. If you engage her, then it could bring them closer together as a team.
A are such conundrums and it is hard to get your mind around all the info that is out there. Nobody has been able to effectively explain it to me.
One of the things I don't understand is the secrecy aspect. There is a lot of literature that advises you to not tell....in case your WAS and you decide to reunite. I understand that aspect of it. However, I think keeping it under wraps in a way keeps the mystery and clandestine aspect of it going.
I view cheating on your spouse as breaking a law, committing a sin. In the legal and religious sectors you pay restitution or penance. There has to be some sort of exposure and accountability for what you have done if you break the law or commit a sin.... but not here, not in these situations.
Sometimes I am resentful of how my H has basically taken us to the $h!ts and has come out smelling like a rose. He did not lose his job despite many people having strong suspicions to actually knowing about it. He did not lose me or our M and his idea of earning back my trust is coming home every night and NOT having an A. Our friends who do know do one of the following: they don't want to know about it, they want me to "just get over it" and/or say things like, "These things happen." Even in cx, our MC wanted to focus on the future, not rehash things. Because I am the most injured party, I'm constantly in pain. Oh, but don't whimper or show your pain. My God! It's like every time they cheat, you lose an appendage. H says it is like a cut that eventually heals and you can barely see the scar. I said, "Really?....REALLY?! It's more like every time you did it with her I lost a hand, then the other, then my feet, then my legs and arms....it's not just a cut." Wish Stehen King would write a novel like that. Maybe I'll write him with my idea.
He never had to tell MC himself the things he said, allowed ow to do to me, or to look introspectively. It would have been VERY healing to have to sit there while he told her details of what he did. A sort of confession.
ow is gone, but she had ONE friend who is around. I've known this guy from HS and we worked together for a few years during HS. He knows me, knows my kids, works with my H, so I find myself baffled by his friendship with a woman who would trash me, risk our family, screw my H. Why didn't he say anything? I want to know that. I've asked my H to arrange a meeting with him. I've been asking for about 6 months now. I think it may happen. I just need to bear witness to my H telling another accessory to the crime what he did wrong.....how much it hurt me.
I think we have an obligation as human beings to tell anyone that an A is wrong and will only hurt others badly. I wonder how our boys will fare in the future with what has happened to our family. #1 is completely and utterly wrapped up in a new girlfriend, #2 has avoided a R as has #3 who had a girlfriend sort of but felt she was too clingy. Are these young men going to think it is a man's right to have an A?
No, nobody wants to be around a hurting person. In primitive societies they take an injured person away from the tribe. I've lost a few "friends" because THEY felt rejected by my absence. I tried to make them understand that I needed to make my world small so that I could mange it. ....oh...I could go on and on.
I'm going for a walk with a fellow LBS.
MZ, the book Torn Asunder gets at some of this. In order to heal, your H has to understand the feel the pain you endured as the betrayed spouse.
In my opinion (which is just opinion since I haven't gone through a recovery and am not sure I will)...it seems like the LBS needs to have a chance to fully get all their questions answered about the A and fully express their anger. The cheater needs to tell them what they need to know and acknowledge/feel the pain. Seems like "ideally", you'd go through several months of rough counseling sessions to process all that.
Your perspectives on other people's reactions are interesting. So far, the only people who know about H's affair are girlfriends of mine. They have all been supportive of me and great sets of ears. I can imagine as others find out though...there's a big variety in how people think you should react.
I am assuming H and I will separate. On Monday, we meet with our MC to talk about telling the kids, etc. I think it's important we agree to a story so we have some consistency and the kids don't overhear things from various people. I think from DB and other things, I don't want the world to know that my H had an affair (seems like it makes the road back more rocky). However, I don't feel like I can say we've tried everything and this is a mutual decision.
I think our story for now may need to be, "we're taking a break and H needs some time".
I also agree on breaking through the secrecy. I've told H that if we separate, he can start introducing OW to his friends and family. I act like I think he'll be excited about that...because after all, he's found someone he thinks is better than me and so since everyone likes me...they'll really like OW!
However, I also say that I don't want her to meet our kids until we are officially divorced.
I think it gives him some pause both from the perspective that introducing her would tell the world what he's done (which he isn't at all comfortable with) AND, I'm not convinced OW is going to be that impressed with his friends/family. His parents are pretty odd and OW comes from a very wealthy/public family.
Again, not sure anything gets through his fog...but I kind of like acting upbeat when I can about his future (while reminding him I wish we could work on our marriage and keep our family intact)
Let's hope these cheaters eventually get a conscience!
Let's hope these cheaters eventually get a conscience!
Yeah. We can't force it, and to be honest, society is so averse to pointing fingers when it comes to marital problems ("no fault divorce"... What a crock!)
We now live in a society that doesn't reward personal responsibility....the schools are too hard, everybody is a winner, and hard work isn't rewarded but almost frowned upon. So why should it be different in a failed marriage...it is always the other spouses fault. I am not a religious man, but they had it right when they said he who hasn't sinned can throw the first stone. Hence in our world the biggest step we can make is not blaming the runaway spouse, but instead looking in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently?". Now that doesn't mean you are the cause of his actions....just taking ownership in our part of what has happened.
One just hopes that something deep down inside "tweaks" and the cheater's conscience wakes up.
And ANS, if they don't ever wake up...I don't want to be married to one of them! I keep reminding myself of that.
For me, my H's "craziness" makes me feel like he may eventually pop out of this. (For example, this weekend, he is gone and can't tell me or the kids when he'll be home...the kids have an event with him tomorrow morning and he "doesn't know" if he'll go with them...he is 2,000 miles away and needs to buy an airline ticket...how can you not know? If the answer is "no", why can't you just say that to the kids?)
If he was truly in a good place with OW and his life, I believe I'd be seeing different behavior.
I need more and until he's ready to give it...I need to detach!
{{Nblost}}
I hear ya, Nblost.
My W isn't in an A, that I'm aware of. She "lives her life" and it's none of my business as far as she's concerned.
I'm as detached as I can be, but at some level, I still long for the closeness that we once had.
It's more like an A than you might think.
And there isn't a thing I can say about it without her saying that I'm falling into line with what "society" says about how she should behave.
Can't help but feel the irony.
Hang in there, Nblost
Agree ANS, if we were truly detached and "over it"...we wouldn't be on this board (or, we'd only be on to try to help others)
I do think living this and feeling the pain will make us stronger and better either in our renewed relationships with our spouses or new ones.
I do think living this and feeling the pain will make us stronger and better either in our renewed relationships with our spouses or new ones.
I don't know about stronger. I suppose so. Other than my M, I've had a lot of pain in my life. My parents were D when I was young. My brother was schizophrenic. My mother died when I was 15. My youngest son is autistic.
Did all of this make me stronger? Well, I suppose it did, but it didn't make me happy ;-} I sometimes think "strong" is overrated.
The problem with the perception of being strong,... is that often we get swept under the rug when it comes to our feelings. Other people assume we can "take it". Or at the least, it becomes convenient to simply ignore pain that is being inflicted upon us.
As for the secrecy... I'm convinced now more than ever that popping the lid off of it DOES take the shine off the new penny. It by itself, isn't always enough to kill the affair, but it helps put the right dents in the fenders of the thing.
Doing my "invasion" a few months back DID something I didn't anticipate... H saw a side of me I rarely show... an angry, AND very determined individual. I think part of the trick is pouring cold water on it, then going back to being calm.
Secrecy and I suspect over the top emotions are part of the draw to affairs. Pulling the covers back, taking that clandestine draw away from it, CAN be helpful.
I think that the "don't tell" advise is vastly wrong. A lot of people NEED to know they weren't going crazy, with the suspicions. I know I did. I needed that admission from H. If for no other reason than to say: You want to try this again... I WILL catch you.
Abs
The problem with the perception of being strong,... is that often we get swept under the rug when it comes to our feelings. Other people assume we can "take it". Or at the least, it becomes convenient to simply ignore pain that is being inflicted upon us.
So true, Abbey.
It brings to mind something that happened to me when I was 15 years old. My mother died very suddenly. I put on a brave face for my younger brother and sister. I overheard someone ask a friend of my mom's how I was "taking it." Her answer... "very well."
Does that make any sense to anyone?
Same thing happens when we're DB-ing our hearts out. It can be eating us alive, but we cannot let anyone know about it.
Except here, of course.
Yeah, you are right...I guess there's not a lot of advantage to being "strong". Although, I do think having people see you handle situations with grace/strength and take the high road.
Definitely not great timing, but I met a very nice man last night. He is also going through a divorce, so there are warning lights flashing over both of our heads. However, I think he may have been sent to me for a reason--knowing there are other fish in the sea (and he seems like a man with great values, etc) is helping me have the strength to do the separation with H. If H won't get out of his affair (this weekend's behavior was again ridiculous)...I need to start moving on and I would love to develop a formal schedule with H so I have opportunities for doing things with friends and meeting new people.
Tomorrow we go to the MC to figure out how to tell the kids, plan the separation, etc.
By the way, H got home this morning (I had no idea he was coming)...he's doing all of his usual "nice" things but I'm just starting to see them for what they are...lame attempts to keep himself on his fence and make me happy enough for another week to put up with this crap.
I guess I've had enough...
It does help to know that there are other fish in the sea. Just be careful not to jump into anything too quickly - you DO need to have worked through your feelings for ex before you embark on another relationship - it's not really fair to the new guy otherwise. PLUS - it's tempting to try to pave over the bad feelings with the bandaid of a new relationship, when really you need to figure yourself out.
That being said - I DID start a relationship just a few months after my ex left - BUT I'd been all through DB with him several years before when he had an affair, with a successful recovery that lasted a few years. When he started to go south again, he spent about 2 years treating me crummy, and I knew 6 months before he moved out that that was where we were heading (kind of like you). A couple months after he left I was well and truly ready to let go, and had peace in my heart that I had done everything possible to save my marriage. At that point, a new relationship was very healing for me.
But many others here have regretted jumping too soon - so be careful.
N,
As for dating you will know when it is the right time...kind of like a light bulb moment. You will just know. During the first part of my journey I was being pursued by a nice woman...had a lot of things in common and yes I was very attracted to her. In the end though, there was no way I was going to be unfair to her and drag her into my life as that would have been very unfair to her. Like KML though, during the last affair I was ready to move on and my mindset was totally different....there was no question for me at that point on whether to date or not....I just knew it was time to move on.
As for the secrecy...there are many thoughts on the topic. For me I kept it as secret as possible because I didn't want the pressure from friends to express how I was doing. I was good and that was the end of it. The things I did learn though is that the same friends who will sit there supporting you telling you how bad your spouse is will also being telling the spouse that they need to do what their heart tells them to....a double sided situation to say the least. For me in the end...keeping it a secret was a blessing in that I was able to stand completely under my own convictions without the outside influence. In the end secrecy is really to protect you....as for the secrecy of the affair.....That isn't your burden to carry. By letting it out of the box, for the most part you will in the end be criticized for it by pretty much everyone...even though you are hurting, the affair is out of your control, not your mess, and to be left alone. Control the things you control, yourself, and let the things you don't control follow their own path. It works a lot better in the end and that is experience talking.
As for this weekend N, seeing through his deception is very good. You know it is a game he is playing and making the choice to stop playing it with him will be hard, but it also another step towards protecting yourself.
As for leaving the board because you are "over it"....working this board correctly will keep your here. One is to help others and the other is in the end....we are all brothers and sisters of a war. There are friends you will make on here that will be friends for a long time.
Okay, true confessions. I don't know if I've blown it or not. (or if I care)
Saturday night, I didn't just meet a nice guy...I had gone to meet a guy from match.com who is also going through a divorce for a drink. I told my kids and the sitter I was going to meet one of my work friends. I told the kids I'd be home by their bedtime (thinking there was no way I would stay that long). Well, I ended up hitting it off with "the nice guy" and we stayed out until midnight talking and drinking wine. I texted the sitter to let her know and I thought everything was fine. D10 tried to call at one point, but I missed her call. Turns out, she called H and reported that I was supposed to be home, but wasn't. I ended up kissing the guy when we said goodbye.
H came home Sunday and I think noticed a big change in me. I was very detached and he did things by himself with the kids. We went to bed and H started to ask me questions about Saturday night. I told him I had gone out with a work friend for dinner. He knew more had happened and drilled me with questions (which I tried to refuse to answer) until he found out I had gone out with a guy and we had kissed. (He attacked me around how long I had been out and accused me that something more must have happened).
I lashed back out at H to say that I knew this was wrong but I had only gone to try to meet a guy as a friend. I pointed out to H that for 6 months, he's been lying to me every day and week and it's ridiculous that he is drilling me over one night. He refused to answer any questions while the affair was a secret, and he's been avoiding answering anything since I found out. I told him I knew he'd gone on vacation before Christmas and he admitted he had.
H said he was happy I had gone out and I deserved to find happiness. Although, he then went on to ask me a lot more questions about the night--many of which I just said were irrelevant. I told him...bottomline, I only went out because he was out with OW and he had basically told me three times last week that we were going to separate. H wanted to look at my phone to see my text messages. I asked if I could see his iphone (which has been in his grasp for six months straight) and he said, "sure".
H then stayed up the entire night pacing around.
Today, we had counseling and discussed separation. We will tell the kids in a couple weeks. The counseling session was "fine". I did find out that OW sounds like she is getting frustrated. H does not want a divorce. He wants a temporary separation. I told him I am not sure I want to wait around a long time to be his second choice. But, we will work out a schedule and a separation is the right decision.
We then left and were in the parking lot talking. H told me he is leaving for 10 days, he can't handle being home anymore. He has our schedule figured out for the next month or so (without asking me or mentioning it in counseling) I told him that was crazy and why does he need to leave home so badly. He may go on vacation again with OW, he's not sure. I asked if this was related to Saturday night and he said it wasn't..but as we talked, I think it is.
H is also trying to turn everything on me and I told him I'm tired of being manipulated. He is saying he knows he has been bad, but I told him I wasn't ready to date and I wouldn't lie to him...and now I've done both of those things. I told him I would call the guy I met and tell him I'd never see him again if H wanted to work on the marriage. I told him I am not ready to date...that wasn't a lie. And, the only reason I lied was because I didn't think this one meeting with this guy had any bearing on our marriage.
H also said I've been apathetic through his whole affair and our marriage hasn't improved. I told him that maybe if he had wanted to be affectionate with me, showered me with attention like OW, taken me on a vacation, given me some emotional energy...I'd be able to show him how things could be different.
It was a pretty ugly conversation. When H got home later, he said "you should take that conversation with a grain of salt". ???
Also, he is lying to OW. She somehow believes he can be gone and it doesn't impact his kids. I think she believes we are officialy separated or something. He said he is the evil one.
Just a huge mess. The good news is I am much more detached/confident and I am speaking my mind to H.
The bad news...pretty sure all my DB-ing flew out the window. Although, I'm definitely not begging and pleading him to come back.
I am definitely staying on this board...if I'm not kicked off for being a disaster!
NB "just got really lost"
Actually - that might have been one of the better things that occurred.
You got some nice male attention that helped you feel that you are worth more than what your H is giving you right now.
Your H had to confront the reality that if he doesn't want you, some other man will - and predictably, his jealousy kicked in big time.
Now - this IS why I usually suggest just giving the IMPRESSION that you MIGHT be going out, rather than living the reality - so that you can get the jealousy reaction but with complete innocent deniability on your part.
And I don't think I would have admitted to the kissing - it would have been fine to say you went out with a male friend who is also going through a divorce, to cry on each other's shoulders.
But it's done - and your H doesn't sound like he liked the dose of reality he got. And I liked your response that if he put the energy into YOU that he's put into the OW< things would be different.
Let's face it - he's an idiot. He wants to have his affair, have his "fun separation", and then just come back to the marriage like nothing ever happened. Wonder what OW would think if she heard that nonsense.
kml,
I agree. I seriously did not think I would hit it off with this guy...I wasn't in the mood to meet him at all and I had told him we could meet but I'm not sure I'm in a place where I'd want to date.
I'm not sure I should have admitted anything to H, but he thought much more may have happened, so in the moment...the kiss sounded innocent. (H then said, "so you were making out with some guy in the parking lot?" I said, "no, he kissed me good night...that is it". H said, "so, you have an emotional and physical relationship with him". I said, "I don't have any relationship! We went out for drinks one time!")
I don't know...but I think I agree that my sitch had approached the ridiculous and this "date" has given me more strength. I told H that I shouldn't have done what I did...we are still married and hadn't officially agreed to separate. He knows he can't really criticize me given his affair.
I am a cautious, analytical person so I am not going to jump into a crazy new relationship. I don't think it is a good idea. I am also going to be honest with this new guy about where things stand with my H (we have a temporary separation, but haven't decided to divorce).
In reality, if this guy is so great...he'll still be around in 3-6 months. He is still working through divorce stuff too. And, if he is great...I don't want to drag him through the muck that I'm going through.
H left this morning. He gave me a kiss on the head and said he was sorry we are in this situation. That's his usual goodbye, so not sure it means anything.
Selfishly, I think I deserve a momentary feeling that I will date again and someone cares about me. The past 6 months have been hell.
I'm also not sure much gets through to my H at this point anyway...
Selfishly, I think I deserve a momentary feeling that I will date again and someone cares about me. The past 6 months have been hell.
You totally DO deserve that. Really, at this point, you would be completely justified if you wanted to chuck him and take him to the cleaners in divorce court.
I understand why you haven't - trying to save our marriages for the sake of the kids, and for the sake of the guy our H's used to be, is a powerful force. And your H, despite being such a fantastic jerk, is certainly still on the fence.
Nonetheless, only you can decide when enough is enough.
Meanwhile, if this guy you met is actually a good guy, he'll be content to just be friends until you both work through your marital issues.
Nice to know, though, that there are other fish in the sea, huh?
H called from OW's city yesterday and was "friendly". I had written him an email before he left for his 10-day trip to express some of my feelings. He said he appreciated the note and would respond.
I am feeling "extremely" detached. Probably detached to the point where it isn't really how I feel. My H believes we turned a corner last weekend and I have changed. I think that is true.
I feel like I would still work on our marriage and I want to keep our family together...but H would need to completely end the affair and beg me to try again. I agree...given how long his affair has gone on and how ridiculous he's been...I think this is how I should feel.
I was honest with "the other guy" about my H's ambivalence and the mess we're in. We talked on the phone last night and may have dinner again some time. But, definitely taking it slow and keeping this a friendship. I'm still feeling like I need a break from the anxiety.
H called from OW's city yesterday and was "friendly". I had written him an email before he left for his 10-day trip to express some of my feelings. He said he appreciated the note and would respond.
Good.
I am feeling "extremely" detached. Probably detached to the point where it isn't really how I feel. My H believes we turned a corner last weekend and I have changed. I think that is true.
Good. Keep the changes in place, and stay as detached as you can. Getting detached in the first place is a process, not an event.
I feel like I would still work on our marriage and I want to keep our family together...but H would need to completely end the affair and beg me to try again.
I agree...given how long his affair has gone on and how ridiculous he's been...I think this is how I should feel.
It is precisely how any human being with a functioning brain feel after they have experienced what you have.
Stay strong NB.
Thanks GH, I agree and am still feeling detached.
I think for me, I've been processing since July and kept getting knocked back by waves of increasing craziness by H. I think the holidays were my line in the sand and I just really couldn't keep living how I was living.
Meeting this new guy was like a gift. I'm not in the mood for a new relationship, but I think the little boost I needed was to have someone interested in me as a person who is genuinely nice. The contrast to my H just showed me why I don't want to put up with his A anymore. (I guess the good and bad news is that a cheating spouse sets the bar really low for someone new!)
I'm glad I tried DB-ing and I guess I'm still doing it on some level (I think I've gone dark)...but, I really no longer care if it works if H doesn't change.
I think everyone has their own line in the sand and maybe some people can live like this indefinitely. For me, life is too short. I also think that there's a chance that things have to change and be shaken up for the A to ever end.
I'm still hurting inside, but am getting to a more peaceful place.
So - if this is your line in the sand - what are you doing about it? Will you tell H he can't come home until he's done with the OW? Make him stay in a motel when he comes home?
He may need a dose of reality now.
We had a counseling session last week and discussed that. H will take the kids away the next two weekends he has them (he has things to take them to for various reasons). So, he has about a month to figure things out.
Our counselor liked the idea of me letting him stay in the downstairs bedroom if he's only home a couple weekends a month. I didn't like it at first, but as we talked, I realized I could potentially do it for awhile. The only problem is then I don't get my own space and time on the weekends and he can monitor what I'm doing.
The hotel thing is definitely an option but I'm sure would get old for the kids after awhile. (fun in a way, but they wouldn't have their toys or friends) H said he could also potentially get a place. The issue with that is that we live in an expensive area (very expensive) so H would pay a lot of his/our money for something he wouldn't use much.
This was the same session where H declared he still doesn't know what he wants and he doesn't want a divorce.
The whole thing may eventually point to how unsustainable this whole situation is...but hard to know which way things would fall.
Sadly, what is going to come through the most is how much H's job and new relationship are meaning that he is abandoning his kids.
Our counselor liked the idea of me letting him stay in the downstairs bedroom if he's only home a couple weekends a month. I didn't like it at first, but as we talked, I realized I could potentially do it for awhile. The only problem is then I don't get my own space and time on the weekends and he can monitor what I'm doing.
Hmmm...this COULD work to your advantage. Picturing H in the basement bedroom, you going out in the evening and not coming home until VERY late. Brand new sexy Victoria's secret undies hanging up to dry in your bathroom. Staging the house so that he gets to wonder what you've been doing while he's gone.
Maybe even going out with a girlfriend and calling him later to let him know you're going to stay over at her house that night.
Note - I'm not saying to actually DO anything - just get out there and have some fun and let him wonder who might be dancing with you.
And if you don't have any single girlfriends to go out with, go sit in a bookstore or see a movie by yourself or go to a meetup.com event - but whatever you do, do it dressed to the nines and with plenty of perfume.
I like that kml...LOL!!..made me laugh..:)
Here's the crazy thing...I'm feeling so detached that I don't even think I care what H thinks. I guess I would want him to know I have a life and outside interests.
I am not sure what's going on with me. I think I met the new guy which showed me life could be a lot better down the road. I think I'm so tired of thinking about H and OW that I struggle to care anymore. And, I'm kind of blocking out the reality of telling the kids we're separating...which will probably happen next week.
I should probably call my IC and talk to her.
I guess I have accepted my situation for what it is and I can't go on living in a marriage like this. I am hopefully at the right point for "going dark" or the more extreme LRT because that's what I am doing and I'm honestly not sure if I want H back at this point.
In a way, I just want to be on my own and building a new life.
The other crazy thing is that H has admitted he's told OW a bunch of lies to make her believe that he isn't hurting his kids or family by staying in her city all the time. Now would be the time where I could probably send her a note or bust him on it...but I'm not even really tempted to do that.
Like I said, I almost feel like something is wrong with me...or maybe this is when you know you've had enough.
Hello Nblost - my name is Rogerio and I have been following your plight since the beginning: I am trying to build-up the courage to tell my own story. You are an amazing person. It appears to me you have come to realize you are so much more than what your husband has been providing/telling you since his affair began. If it were my wife doing what your husband is doing: refusing to give-up other woman; placing you and your children at risk (emotinally and financially), I would say, "I'm sorry you have not been able to make-up your mind as to whether you love me and the children enough to (first never having had an affair in the first place!)give-up the OM (OW in your case), but I have a solution for you: I will make the decision for you. Good-bye." In your instance I would first contact the other woman and discuss how he has been stringing you and your emotions along since they began their A, how it was impacting you and your family, and that he has lied to her about it. I would ruin his chances with her. I would also inform all my family, friends, his co-workers/boss of the situation (I am certain boss would not be pleased this were taking place while he was working for the company - and in effect giving them a bad name) so everyone would see what a rat he is. You say you are not interested in this drama anymore, and I truly understand where you come from. But I would also want to give him such a black-eye that he would never forget what he did, who he did it to, and the ramifications of his cowardly, narcassistic actions: no wife; no family; no friends; perhaps no job (you say you make a decent earning so you do not require his money), and finally no self-respect. Let him stew over that as you have done over these past many months. I only wish you all the best in whatever direction you take, but it sounds as though you don't really need my wishes or prayers, as you are a strong confident woman who will only come out of this mess stronger, more self-confident and amazing.
NBLOST,
I have read your story. You are an amazing women. Now for the reality:
Tell him to get the fvck out! Not in a week, not in a day but the very next time you see him face to face.
I have been where you are. One Wednesday evening last March I had, had ENOUGH. My "had enough" went on for 3 months, then I spit the words out: GET OUT! He did.
It took about 20 minutes for the text to start rolling in, then the calls. Within 24 hours he was at my house inviting me to breakfast, dinner ect...
We are "together" again, but still not in the same house. He spends all weekends here and maybe a night or two a week. I kinda like the situation.
YOU and only YOU can break the cycle. He is either in or he is out. It seems that the decision is up to YOU!!!!
Now, I would probably send the OW a message, that is just me. It would go like this: I have decided that you can have him.
While we are still sexually active, he is no longer a trust worthy man. I will let all the chips land where they may. He has expressed in marriage C, a desire not to divorce, however the option is now closed.
End it there....
I do feel like I am done and I am looking at filing for a formal separation to protect assets and start making this "real".
As to where he stays, it's only complicated from the perspective that he's only in town here about 4-5 days a month and I agree with his thoughts that it's really expensive to rent something if he won't be here using it. Plus, with the three kids, it's nice to have them in a stable environment. That's why having him stay in a bedroom for now may be fine. Is it optimal, no...but I'm not sure anything would be.
I'm not feeling vindictive like I need to expose him to people. I have felt that way through this process...but at this point, it's his life and I am focusing on myself. I'm pretty confident his relationship with OW will self-destruct at some point and not sure I want to act like I care enough to intervene. And honestly, if the affair blows up and he just ends up back with me as a last resort...why do I want to be in that situation for the rest of my life?
He needs to come back and fight for me and our marriage. Until I see that happen, I'm continuing on the path to separation.
I also think it's vital to try to end our relationship on a high note...we will be together forever through the three kids--parties, graduations, grandkids, etc.
We'll see if I can stay strong!
He needs to come back and fight for me and our marriage.
Amen, sistah!
Everybody has told you what an amazing person you are and so am I telling you too. I wish I could be like you because I'm, more or less, in the same situation as you are. Except the fact I'm probably older than you are.There is life after a separation and let's hope it will be not a divorce. I cannot stay in a marriage just for the kids and without feeling I'm loved and appreciated. god bless you and your children.
Hey NB....Just catching up here. Sounds like you are in a good place...well, as good as you can be given the circumstances.
My 2 cents- I laughed at kml's suggestion with the Victoria Secret underwear etc....I guess I just wonder about the "staging" to make an impression. No guarantees, NOT that it might have some effect. So go get that sexy underwear anyway...right now, TONIGHT! Not for him, but for yourself.
I replay 2 scenes in my head where I confronted H and OW. If I had it to do over again, I imagine saying to him in front of her,
"It's either me or her, you choose now." I imagine that because I still think to this day that she thinks he stayed for the kids and he
"will always love her." Eye-roll! It just sticks in my craw.
IMHO I think staying in the basement is making it too easy for him. It's time for a big dose of reality. Getting divorced is expensive! He needs to know that. He'd be like that adult kid still living at home with the parents (failure to launch) and imagine that kid with an addiction. Time for your H to GROW UP!
I was cleaning out my e-mails today and came across the chat my H had with OW and how they were scheming to "run away" together. My H could never be away from his boys. I know that now, but it didn't factor in then. I really thought he was going to leave us all. Now 18-24 months out, I realize that if he had left his kids, he was not someone I would miss for long.
Stop thinking about his expenses and in effect "supporting" that A.
I'll be back now and again to see you. Don't just disappear, OK?
Now I need to find Abbs......
I am still here! H knows I met this other guy and hasn't slept or reacted well. I am traveling for work for a couple days and H is with the kids. He is saying how sad he is about the impact on them. But, still isn't saying he will give up the A.
If anything, I feel like I am ok whichever way this goes. I feel like I am seeing H start to crack a bit. I still feel like I need to see a major change in him to know I would want to work on things.
My WAW acted the same way when she thought I was seeing someone else, even though she's in an A.
It's not so much a jealousy feeling on his part as it is a feeling of rejection because the affair is much more desireable when he thinks he can cheat and still have you as a backup option. But don't get ahead of yourself and start to date to make him jealous or he might grow closer to the OW and try to rub the A in your face to seem more desirable and put the taboo back into the A.
You can go out and still have fun being attractive and sexy but watch out for a few hail mary attempts on his part to keep you in the wings. And by that it could be anything from jealousy attempts, anger to get you to stop, grief and tears caused by guilt on his part, and the biggest being some reassurance that you are still his wife or still love him without any return investment on his part. Stick to your "maybe"s and "idk"s when that happens.
These little signs you're seeing are good signs. Baby steps really do add up to giant leaps.
Hi Nblost I was hoping we would hear from you. As they say, 'What is good for the goose is good for the gander'. Let him sit at home with the kids and think, and think, and think - letting his imagination run wild. I am sorry to say, but not saying he is willing to give up his A is a major slap in the face. I would tell him to go twist in the wind, personally. All the best and take care.
I feel like I'm in an insane world. Last Friday, I went on my third "date" with this new guy I met. H had taken our kids out of town for the weekend. I'll admit, I also had the attitude that I do not need to answer to H given we are "separated" and he has been going on vacations and dates for the past 6 months without telling me where he's gone a single time. Anyway, I turned my phone off and had a very nice time at dinner/drinks. Do I think this new guy is the man of my dreams? No, doubtful. Yet, he has strong values, is a great father, and thinks I'm a great person.
I was out very late and never turned my phone back on. When I turned it on at 9 am the following day...my phone was full of frantic messages from H. He had no idea where I was--75% of him was sure I was with another man and he was worked up over that...25% of him was truly worried. H didn't sleep all night. I told him I had been out with this other guy. H then admitted he knows who the guy is (he snooped on my phone) and he's researched him. H implied he knows something about this man that makes him nervous and he thinks I need to be very careful.
H then cut his weekend short with the kids and came home on Saturday night. He told me he was coming home, but showed up about 3 hours earlier than I would have expected. I think he was trying to catch me out on a date or something. (I wasn't)
H is saying he's really happy for me, but I can tell he's upset. He claims he always thought I'd love him more than anyone else in the world--but now that he knows I'm seeing someone else...he doesn't have that same view of me. (I'm thinking...if you really thought I loved you that much...having a six month affair is a funny way to show me respect and love!)
H was supposed to be at a guys weekend this weekend (near OW's city), but he's cutting this weekend short and coming home. He told me I could go on dates all weekend and he'll take the kids somewhere. I told him I don't care about dating. I was planning to be with the kids since he took them last weekend.
H is also thinking we'll tell the kids we're separating this weekend. We haven't planned that conversation at all and I think it will be tough...the kids haven't seen huge signs that we're having problems. When we talked further about separation and splitting...H reminded me that he isn't ready to talk about divorce yet. He has never wanted a divorce and I'm pretty sure he still doesn't. I think H is now more adamant about separation given I've met someone...but also, he still isn't saying he'll give up the A...so I want the separation too.
I need to be very careful and the last thing I want is for H to accuse me of having an affair on him. I've been very honest with this new guy and he also doesn't want to be a factor in whether or not my marriage ends.
I drove the high road for several months...it let H sit happily on his fence with a full plate of cake. Do I think I'm doing all the right things right now? No...I've definitely careened off the high road. But, I feel like things had to change.
I'm also still feeling like I'm on a bit of an emotional break by allowing myself to meet someone new and have a new friendship. However, I'm also not letting my new relationship with friends suffer and I need to keep GAL-ing.
That's the update...
M 43
H 45
D11, D8, D4
Married 12 years
H in PA/EA since August 2011
I found out in September 2011, A hasn't ende
LOl - your H is such a predictable idiot. Wants to have his affair but gets all worked up at the idea that YOU might look elsewhere??? He's following the script to a T.
If he says anything more about it just remind him that HE has been the one having the affair while YOU suffered. That YOU are a woman with a lot of love to give and if HE doesn't want that love, you will move on and find someone who will. That YOU have honored your marriage vows and still are honoring them, but if he isn't willing to give up his affair, you will no longer consider yourself bound by them.
Then let him stew a bit more.
It's actually a positive sign that he's so jealous.
(Haha - once when my H was having an affair, we were driving somewhere and he had to answer my phone for me because I was driving. Then he started looking through the incoming calls and asking me about any unfamiliar numbers. HE was the one having the affair, but suddenly it occurred to him that maybe I could do the same? The numbers were all things like the auto mechanic calling me to say the car was ready etc. It was just hilarious to me though - like it had never occurred to him until that moment that what was sauce for the gander might be sauce for the goose. )
I know...it is kind of funny.
My "OM" lives less than a mile from our house too...so H knows he is close by.
Plus, I think H believes my new "relationship" is a lot more than it is (probably based on his crazy affair). I figure it's fine if his imagination is running wild. He told me he imagined I was up all night with "OM". :-)
I would never have wanted this to happen until now when I really feel like I was ready to be done.
LOl - your H is such a predictable idiot. Wants to have his affair but gets all worked up at the idea that YOU might look elsewhere??? He's following the script to a T.
If he says anything more about it just remind him that HE has been the one having the affair while YOU suffered. That YOU are a woman with a lot of love to give and if HE doesn't want that love, you will move on and find someone who will. That YOU have honored your marriage vows and still are honoring them, but if he isn't willing to give up his affair, you will no longer consider yourself bound by them.
Then let him stew a bit more.
It's actually a positive sign that he's so jealous.
(Haha - once when my H was having an affair, we were driving somewhere and he had to answer my phone for me because I was driving. Then he started looking through the incoming calls and asking me about any unfamiliar numbers. HE was the one having the affair, but suddenly it occurred to him that maybe I could do the same? The numbers were all things like the auto mechanic calling me to say the car was ready etc. It was just hilarious to me though - like it had never occurred to him until that moment that what was sauce for the gander might be sauce for the goose. )
Good advice, kml.
Starsky
Long texting session last night with H. He was very open to texting about our R. We are going to tell the kids we are separating on Sunday. H has no plan for where he is going/his schedule and I said we need to work on that.
I reiterated to H that I don't care about dating right now and I think he gets it. He knows he has created all of the problems. He said he's sure any new guy will wait around for me as long as it takes--I am such an amazing, awesome person.
He is sure he'll have some regrets about his actions. He also doesn't like what he has done to our relationship. I told him that we have the power to change our relationship...we aren't just victims in all this.
I don't think he's ready to give up his A, but I can tell he isn't overly confident about it. He said he's never said the OW was better than me (I would disagree, but whatever)...it's just that she treats him differently in a couple ways that I never did. I agreed.
In the end, he said he loves talking to me. I had commented on how much his affair has impacted me (lost 20 pounds) and he said I just keep getting better and better looking while he's losing his hair. He said he might start needing to do a comb over, and I said if he does...he better just plan on staying married.
I don't know...in a way, I feel like I'm leaving a path back open. I also think there's a chance we could get along well as friends/parents without being married.
Well, you did a good job of planting the idea in his mind that there could be a different outcome here.
And he's starting already to think about what he's losing. Good.
Now quit telling him you're not going to date. Don't give him the idea he has the luxury of you waiting around for him.
Well, the dating issue for me is hard. It really bothered H...so I guess I got my intended effect. However, I felt like I may have closed the door too quickly on the marriage by acting like I was completely ready to move on. Overall though, I think it gave me some confidence and I needed the break from feeling like I was being crushed emotionally.
I've told him that I'd never see this new guy again if he'd be willing to come back and work on the marriage. I told H I still love him, but I can't live like this. (How many times can I say this????????) I'm also concerned about muddying my own head and future divorce proceedings by having H think I'm starting up affairs right now? AND, I've told H...we can date, we can use other people as "drugs" right now...OUR KIDS can't. They need to be the number one priority for us right now.
But, H knows I've met and gone out with a nice guy who lives a mile away. He'll continue to worry about it...I'm pretty sure of that.
If I wasn't ready to be done, this would all be way more traumatic. But, I'm ready to stir the pot and see what happens.
I think you already know what you have to do here. Since you did chase your H a bit in the beginning, and plead, and use the "L", and were more or less needy... It's time to completely back of for a while and let him miss you. And you didn't close the door forever. If you two are still willing to talk to each other as friends even once in a while you're still good.
Follow DR and give him a few months to himself to deal with all the problems he thought he was ready for without you and don't try to pry into his life until he invites you in. I cannot stress that last part hard enough. Your H needs space and you must not ask questions about what he is doing or freely give up that info as well, the key is mystery and not jalousy. It's ok for you to miss a call once in a while and return it later that night or the next day and let him work just a little bit harder to talk with you. I know if you become too available the WAS throws breadcrumbsd and how painful it is, so stay just out of reach.
Dating isn't necessarily going to help you in any way other than put a temporary bandaid on the sting, but it can help you recreate that lot sense of attraction and get your confidence back. Now that means dating, not SEX! You don't want to manipulate anyone or bring more drama into your life and that jealousy the H may feel certainly won't guarante his respect. Trust me on this one you do not want to make this a competition over who has moved on first.
What you know you have to do is stop worrying about getting him back before the divorce and just have fun with yourself. So what if you get divorced before you get him back. You have longer than you realize afer D and an even beter chance to R with kids. Most importantly if you know you are a good person and I think you are if you're second gessing dating. Then your spouse is going to miss that person eventually. It may take a while but the quicker you get over the need to get him back by X amount of time and stop pressuring yourself the quicker you can have fun being around him as a friend.
Half of DR/DB is just getting rid of need and being patient. And the other half is believing in yourself. If you can relax I promiss you'll do better.
NB, are you still out there? Checking on all my buddies here.
Read over your 1/27/12 post. I think telling him you love him, want him, and would be willing to stop all other dating activities to work on the M is the right thing to do. It's the truth. Yet, if he doesn't agree, what are you to do? Keep yourself on a shelf until he decides?
Don't forget, sometimes the WAS feels so guilty and ashamed that they get it in their heads that you wold never want them back.
A long time ago my neighbor told me that she had had an A and her H found a letter she wrote. He took her for a ride and showed her the letter and then asked her what she wanted to do. She told him she wanted him and the M. She said he folded up the letter and said, "Alrighty then." He never mentioned the A again.
So, stop in and update us, OK?
I'm sure I should start a new thread....
I guess another week has passed. H and are are "theoretically" separated although he hasn't moved out. He just continues to travel.
We told the kids that we are having issues and H will likely move out in about a month. The two oldest (11 and 8) took it very hard and sobbed for about 45 minutes. H thought it was horrible telling them. He commented again that he might regret all this, and I can tell it's hard on him. But, no change in his attitude about continuing the A.
I told my parents yesterday that we are having issues (I did not tell them about the A). They were sad but not overly surprised, they've observed his work travel.
I am sure I am in an EA with this new guy. We check in with each other every morning, chit chat a little during the day, and then have gotten into fairly long texting sessions at night. Mostly, we just talk about day to day stuff but I do vent to him about H. It's interesting in a way because I feel like I can see how H felt...
H got home tonight after being gone almost a week. He was pretty nice with the kids, but then snapping at me. (said he didn't appreciate my "f---ing b----" attitude when I told him I didn't feel like talking tonight. (I am sitting here and have work I should be doing)
I don't know...I can tell he's hurting inside on some levels...but I am just so tired of his selfishness. I almost don't notice it anymore...but my friends constantly call him out on it. Once again, no idea where he was this weekend and I am alone with the kids.
I guess I can be the experiment for going off the rails. I don't know...it's just really scary how powerful these affairs are. And, I don't know what the right answer is for handling them. I think you just need to focus on yourself and not be overly worried about doing anything that can alienate your spouse. In the end, they are ALREADY having an affair...how much worse can it get?
I am glad I took the high road and tried...but I almost wonder if I should have gotten angrier earlier...I'd recommend reading several books on affairs to get perspectives if you are going through this. I think Shirley Glass's is the best.
Hi Nblost it's good to hear you are doing OK. You question whether "...but I almost wonder if I should have gotten angrier earlier..." it might have perhaps made a difference. Shoulda, woulda, coulda, you're here now and there is no sense in looking back. I'm so sorry about your girls, have you thought of perhaps having them see a professional to help them through this? I'm so very glad to hear you are doing well and you are receiving emotional support from your new friend as well as your girlfriends: at times like this you can sure tell who your friends are! You need this. And as for your H, well......, his life will continue to speed towards the cliff. He has seen the reaction from your daughters now, and if that wasn't enough to jar him from his selfishness, then what will. The biggest thing now is for you to focus on yourself (which you have been doing) to retain your sanity.
Wishing you all the best.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply I have any regrets...I don't think there's ever a perfect way to handle finding out your H has had an affair...but luckily I found great books and this website early in the process.
I think if I hadn't had the holidays in the mix, I would have pushed H quicker to make a decision and probably saved myself a month or two of this "indecision stuff". But, not a big deal.
H left again last night to go to OW's city. He gave me a backrub before he left and tried to say some nice things. He said he still loves me. I said he doesn't seem happy and he agreed. But, I also reminded him that this was all his choice.
He's screwed up...and I'm actually not sure at this point if I want to work on our marriage. Actually, I know I don't unless I see a major change from him. He's actually not a bad person, but he's too selfish right now for me to deal with him.
I am definitely pretty detached. Having had good friends and meeting a guy with a strong character definitely help.
I am sure I am in an EA with this new guy. We check in with each other every morning, chit chat a little during the day, and then have gotten into fairly long texting sessions at night. Mostly, we just talk about day to day stuff but I do vent to him about H. It's interesting in a way because I feel like I can see how H felt...
...it's just really scary how powerful these affairs are. And, I don't know what the right answer is for handling them. I think you just need to focus on yourself and not be overly worried about doing anything that can alienate your spouse. In the end, they are ALREADY having an affair...how much worse can it get?
I am glad I took the high road and tried...but I almost wonder if I should have gotten angrier earlier...I'd recommend reading several books on affairs to get perspectives if you are going through this. I think Shirley Glass's is the best.
Nblost - I am confused...
It seems like you are now having an EA yourself and then you go on about how things cannot get any worse than your H having an affair.
My H's PA started as an EA. You mention Shirley Glass' book - I believe she also talks about the slippery slope dynamic of EA's as well.
Are you still standing for your marriage? If so, I would humbly suggest that you tread carefully with your R with this new person - I just don't see how it could get you any closer to getting your M back on track.
Just my humble opinion, I mean no disrespect.
Disrespect is fine (I'm sure the hardcore DB-ers would not respect where I am) As of the beginning of January, my H and I are "separated". He's essentially coming and going as he pleases with no accountability to me. I've got basically fully custody of the kids except for 2 weekends in the past 6 weeks.
I've made the decision that I'm essentially done with our marriage. H decided we needed to separate at the beginning of January (I told him he had to choose) although he hasn't made a move yet to get out of the house. He can't give up his affair and after 6 months of this...I'm at the point where I am tired of putting up with him. In all honesty, part of me is ready to file for separation or divorce and be done (and I may need to do that to get him out of the house). I was ready for him to move out in October. Sad for the kids, but if they knew the whole truth (or do some day)...I'll have more self respect to tell them I didn't put up with him.
Do I think it's a great time to be dating? No, but I'm being selfish and it's nice to take a break from the crush of the affair rejection. The new guy I met is a great dad and it's good to know that good men exist in this world. He's with his kids a ton and I'm with mine a ton...so we can't do anything crazy (and we aren't in a crazy place where we even would) Trust me, from reading the 10+ books I've read on affairs and relationships...I know this relationship is probably 99.9% likely to fail. And, I've been open with H about it and have told him I'm just having fun and I'd end things to try again with him if he was ready. I think it bugs him on some level...which makes me feel like he can better understand what I've felt.
I've lost a lot of respect for my H through this. I will also need to see a major transformation in him to know it'd be worth trying to work on things with him. (He's never believed marriage should have to be work).
As several of you predicted, if anything, I'm seeing H crack more now that things are hitting the fan. I really feel like I'm living my own life and that's the best I can do right now.
I have a girls weekend this weekend. H's sister is in town from abroad and he'll be taking the kids alone to his family. He's admitting he isn't happy. My dad sent him a note tonight (my parents don't know about the affair) and said they were praying for us. H wrote me a note saying he feels very guilty....
So, anyway, I guess I'm just living life and not really making a huge effort at any strategy. I'm well trained in DB-ing though so I continue to feel like I am treating H with love and trying to be supportive. I think ideally, I'd be "dark" but with our three kids and him in the house when he's hear...that's not really possible.
We'll see what happens. I wouldn't recommend what I'm doing to anyone who isn't already feeling done.
Oh, and my H doesn't want to talk about a divorce at all...but I think that's him not wanting to lose me as his second choice option. We've had long conversations about how I don't want to be second choice...but I can understand why I am.
Also, the guy I am in my "affair" with gets my situation and I've been honest with him. He has zero desire to be in an affair with a married woman....and we aren't exclusive. He's going through a divorce and views us as being in the same boat where we can have fun and support each other.
You're doin' fine, girl. You put up with waaaaayyy more from your H than most would.
Yes, it's a worry, risking the other man's feelings when you may not be done with your H. But I also totally understand how nice it is for you to have the validation, after putting up with your H's BS for so long.