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Posted By: Butterfly1 Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 02:59 AM

They say someone who has OW is in a fog, but I am the one coming out of a fog. I can't believe it took me so long to come out of denial because of my "love" for my H and my desire for my son to have an intact family.

I now see: That the past year, not only was H lying to me that we may reconsile by going to MC, he was abusing me and S emotionally and verbally while he went back to his OG (Other GIRL - I'm sure she's no woman - the girl H dated before me was 17 - and he was 28!). I mean it just all hit me. I could see it all clearly like a movie in my mind. He has been lying, cheating, and abusing me. For over a year. Before she came into the picture, we had been living apart, but it was agreed it was temporary, that we would start MC on month four and work on our M. Then it turned on a dime and now I can see it all.

I am disgusted and furious.

I was cleaning my kitchen, going over this in my mind, and imagining telling H to tell his girl that the little boy she met so "casually" the other night is in a broken home because of her - because of her encouragement to keep a married man from facing his problems and working on his family.

Then H calls. He's away on some stupid gaming conference(why not - life is all fun and games these days for him, right?) and I'm home alone with S for four nights. Which, by the way is a most welcome respite - no anxiety attacks!!!!

He wants to talk to S and of course I have to let him. But I was in such a state as to be cold as ice. For all I know she's standing right there with him.

I know Allen recommends saying these types of things directly to OP but I in no way can stomach meeting her or talking to her. Should I send him such a note? Or just go NC and go through lawyers?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 04:05 AM
GO NC through the lawyers.

No I do not reccomend saying these things to the OP unless there is some reason to think it will benefit the marriage... In this case I don't see one... This woman knows your H is married to you and the full details.

There ARE circumstances where OP is NOT fully informed or is in a vulnerable position (married themselves for example)... In THOSE situations I would reccomend confronting.. but from what you describe above no I would not.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 04:18 AM
I see the difference now. No use in saying it to H either?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 03:56 PM
Why would you say this to your H?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 04:36 PM
Probably in my constantly futile effort to hope that I will get through to him so he can see what a mess he's made...LOL

Also, I suppoe, because I've been a doormat for so long, somehow it feels like standing up for myself.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/06/10 04:46 PM
No, its not

DOING something is how you stand up for yourself.. Saying things to him to provoke him is how you pick fights.

And its PURSUIT.. textbook PURSUIT
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 01:59 AM
Thank you, you are right!

And how ashamed am I at how many times I pursued in that way - thinking I was "communicating"...ugh...practically my entire marriage, as well as the past year. Well it's never to late to learn!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 05:49 AM
So the lawyer wants to immediatly file to have H take a drug test and not allow S5 in his airplane (H is a pilot, bought a plane the day we signed legal sep. papers!). The L's father died in a plane crash because he was using and flying. She said it's for the protection of my child. My H, a rageaholic, is going to flip a lid. I do know he buys painkillers and anti anxiety meds online without prescription and "takes a few" from whomever he can find. He claims it's because his licence would be taken away if it was on record that he even uses meds legally. I've allowed him to convince me that he knows how and when to use them while self-prescribing - only during "anxiety attacks." How stupid have I been to think a person can do this? He is extremely anal and controlled, so it seems he could. But he has also lied so it seems he may be lying. Better safe than sorry, L says. I have let H control me for so long now out of fear of his blow ups and I'm at that same moment now that has made me back down countless times - hoping that moving forward this time is actually "setting a boundary" and will be the best.

IT's going to cost my $5K just for that. And H is going to go ballistic. I'm freaking out wondering if I should continue to believe him when he says he is "responsible" and "would never fly day of or day after using meds" for safety. I question if my motives aren't only to protect S, but to take control and have him wake up to the consequences of leaving, finding a young girl, adopting a new "party lifestyle" (of which I am unclear to the extent and substance, but H has literally used that term). I'm basically having a panic attack about all of it.

I want to fight for more custody - my state gives 50/50 as a default - and I let him bully me into signing this for our legal sep. agreement. H has been verbally abusive, unpredictably explosive, and lying and manipulative. Basically, the idea behind 50/50 was that we could talk about what is best for S, but at this point, H actually wants 50% and I don't so I guess if I can't talk with him, then I have to fight legally. I was hoping emotionally and financially not to have to go this route. Scared I'll lose my house.

Here's why I want more custody, or ideally, full:
a) H's unpredictable emotions - from calm to rage at both me and S
b) S is five, he is young, has never lived anywhere but this house, and I've always been an at home mom so he is safest with me
c) this new H - the elusive OW, the admittance of partying and illegal drug use - the secrecy around both - introducing S to OW without talking to me about it, changing story about extent of drug usage (both his brothers are drug addicts - high funcioning ones with high level jobs, but addicted none the less).

d) - yes, I admit it. I want him out of my life. I don't want my peace of mind disrupted weekly for drop offs, etc. He has had control for so long now. I want control of my life, and my son's. I have PTSD like panic attacks everytime we have to see each other and when H is alone with S.

No I"ve never been physically abused. But the amount of emotional abuse is great. My previous threads detail some of it. I want peace and predictability for both me and my son. Unfortunately in this state I may have to hock my house to get it. But it's my child. What is more important? To me, nothing, to H, well he has chosen parties and dates with gf weekly over time with S.

But I"m terrified. Time to get things in motion and I"m literally terrified, not sure if I'm doing the right thing. Any advice appreciated.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 11:38 AM
I think if your H is a risk you need to work on that.

If he has anger issues then video tape or record any conversations you have to have... But I would do as much through a lawyer as I could.

PTSD post affair is quite normal.

And even the THREAT of abuse is abuse, which is what you are talking aobut I believe.

You can always talk to another lawyer or a social worker as well to get additional input.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 04:59 PM
What do I do to handle the ptsd? Why does this happen? I think it's more to do with the constant verbal and emotional attacks, and the threat of losing my son 50% of the time.

Also, do people here think I"m unreasonable wanting full custody? If struggle with the guilt of this ....
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 05:05 PM
It's in the book Not Just Friends ... twenty pages or so... Glass explains it and offers advice on how to process...

NO ONE here will suggest you are unreasonable in the wake of an addictive affair no...

Once the affair is OVER you may want to think about extending more custody, but the child's safety is the first and foremost concern... And if you have been on this forum for a while you will know its NOT a good idea leaving a child in the hands of an addict pursuing a sleazy affair... They are selfish, wreckless, and destructive... And your child shouldn't be exposed to that
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 05:18 PM
And I struggle to admit this is a sleazy affair - he has been with her a year, I think. He thinks it is "time to be honest". I think it's his addiction and escape from the problems in himself and our marriage as he got this gf right away after leaving me. Thoughts?

And thank you!
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 05:30 PM
You think he left you THEN picked up OW? Seriously?

You know how old that story gets?

Sorry be the one to break this to you, but it is very often the case that the OW is the one that pushes your H out the door in teh first place.

The WH keeps THAT a secret and brings her out AFTER he moves out for a while...

Sorry, but I don't buy this "she's new, never knew her before I moved out" story for a second... That lie is getting so old it should have a copywright stamped on it.

He thinks its time to be honest NOW?

No, what he means is its time to attempt to get everyone in our circle of friends to accept OW... I say YOU get to them first and ask tehm all to turn HER AND HIM AWAY and denounce their infidelity...

Expose your H to his family and your circle of friends NOW before he tries to introduce her... RUIN the whole thing and drag his "girlfriend" through the mud...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 06:13 PM
You are wrong, we had vicious fights when we were married and one that spurred him out the door. I was not innocent either.

HOwever, I have changed enormously since he left. He on the other hand stated a new life of partying, and seeing OW three months after we were apart. WE were supposed to start MC on the fouth month to work on our marriage - never happened. Now I know why.

I know this is the truth. I have told his mother, and one of his friends. That's it. I'm sure his brothers know from his side - in fact the little brother is the one with the drugs and who he hangs out with with OW.

He has a clear conscience to say he "decided to leave and move on". Seriously. That didn't stop him from eventually going to MC because he was "unsure" for five months - all to lead me to signing the legal sep papers. He dangled possible reconsiliation in front of me until the legal sep was final. Then he stopped MC, told me he wasn't coming back, and bought an airplane.

This is why I struggle with it being an "affair" vs. "moving on".
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 06:29 PM
I hope i am wrong...

But legally if you arne't divorced its adultery... an affair...

Moving on CILVILY involves CONCENT and honesty.. He didnt' DO that did he? He HID this from you and you caught him somehow?

SOrry I have heard the "moving on" and "we're separated I can do as I please" arguments before.. I dont' buy them.

Being under different roofs doesn't dismiss the need for courtesy to your spouse... And "hey I am THINKING of putting myself on the market.. are YOU OK with this... are we DONE?" IS in order for a separation...

We have many people on this forum who have encountered infidelity during separation... even some WS on here who started teh affairs during separation and ADMIT it WAS an affair and even FELT like one.

Sorry, but I dont' buy it.. if you are giong to argue your h's case for him then why fight it?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 06:45 PM
LOL good point. I'm just putting out there what he would say, and trying to figure out the reality - and what I really think. I agree with you.

He also yelled and screamed at me for hours a couple of times when I stated that my lawyer suggested we move the separation date up to later - now I see it was because he didn't want to legally be "cheating" before we were legally separated.

Anyhow legally it doesn't make too much difference - in my state anyone is free to file for D if they want and "infidelity" can't be used in the case.

And I also see that he didn't want to file for D first because he was afraid of an expensive D - he wanted to persuade me into having a legal sep agreement that was uncontested and to use in a D. Case. Now I am opening it back up for more custody under "best interest of the child" which I can do at any time, even post D. He's going to flip out when he sees I"m starting an expensive D case.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 06:51 PM
Yup

Yelling and screaming is red light for addicts..

And the GUILT again suggests he KNEW he was cheating...

I am going to suggest you also ask your lawyer to include a "no paramour" order in place if you can do this in yoru state.. it disallows your WH from exposing your son to OW..

You need some good truth darts to throw at him.. statements.. NO ARGUMENT is going to sway him once he's addicted.

I could be wrong, but I have seen so many people on this forum discover the affair started MUCH SOONER than they thought it did... NONE of them wanted to believe it...

Q : How did you find out about his affair? What work have you done to trace back the timeline to confirm teh info is accurate and complete?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 09:20 PM
Like I said, H wanted to reconsile, just not immediately. I agreed to wait until month four for MC. Whenever I would mention D, he was the one saying, "no no wait a minute" ...his studio apt was month to month and only to be temporary.

He attended just a couple of MC apps before quitting. He was rageful the entire time and blurted out something about sleeping with someone else (and all the crap about how great it was and how all our problems were mine to own up to - of course) - at that time, I thought it was just once but he stopped going to MC, got a bigger apt with a lease, and started being rageful toward me and S.

That's the extent of my knowledge. It's totally unlike him too. He was the conservative one in our Marriage - I thought it was a reaction to our problems, apparently he's kept it going with her - although I don't know how intensely = for the past year. He's only mentioned it a handful of times.

Q: What are truth darts?

PS I have no idea if the "no paramour" thing exists - I hope so but if the lawyer didn't mention it, I don't know. I'll definitely ask!~
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 10:22 PM
Rage is very common with infidelity... I still suspect the timeline... Sorry, but I am having trouble buying it... It is VERY common for spouses having affairs to start to rage all the time.. It's how they clumsily process their guilt...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 11:03 PM
Wow. Everyone in the other forum seemed surprised, you do not.

But let me say that he has always had this side of him =- it's why I had pain in my marriage. I felt that it was when I tried to "talk" to him about it things would escalate and yes, I said and did bad stuff too. But I lived walking on eggshells previously, always wondering when I would get snapped at, insulted, grumbled at, blamed, accused, etc. INW - not a new problem.

However, it increased tenfold after we broke up.

What a nightmare this is! It's painful enough to be dumped for OW, but then to be verbally abused on top of that - and to have a child in the middle to top it off!
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 11:35 PM
It increased when he moved out or sooner?

The anger is guilt processing... People on this forum mostly interpret infidelity as an ADDICTION.. And addicts can RAGE with the best of them.. I don't know if you have experience dealing with alcoholics or such, but this isn't much different...

Rage is pretty common... Spring in After the Affair makes an excellent comment :


Certainly while you are having the affair, and even after it's revealed, you may feel more anger toward your partner than guilt. That's because the two emotions are inversely related: The greater your anger, the less your guilt; the more venom you direct at your partner, the less you direct at yourself. The anger you experience may be a legitimate response to the way your partner has treated you, or a defense against the guilt you feel for what you've done("It is human nature to hate those whom you have injured," wrote Tacitus, almost 2,000 years ago). What makes it hard to know the difference is that anger always feels justified -- it's a basic characteristic of the emotion.


- Spring, Janis - After the Affair, p 42.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/07/10 11:52 PM
No not before. Ihave not detailed what led to him leaving, but I'm pretty clear on what made him leave in the first place - it was a reacton to me. So was getting and OW and all the anger, I suppose.

The above makes so much sense! I've always assumed it was his natural anger towards me. I did not realize this had to do with OW. I also did not realize he was doing prescription drugs illegally. All suspect. And why L is going to say that being with me is "best for the child."


Now if only to find a way to stop it. I have gone dim (Havent' done NC because I don't trust him with S - and he's shifted a stunning amount. He is playing "Mr. NIce Guy" now. More BS. It's who he was inbetween "episodes" when we were married.

IN some ways, this makes it harder for me to "catch" him raging with a tape recorder and such - which by the way he has found before, gotten more verbally aggressive, and even broke a tape recorder once.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 02:15 AM
You aren't the first.. I think it was cucoon on this forum who said her husband broke her recorder as well when he caught her trying to tape his abuse.
Posted By: lovehurts Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 02:37 AM
Hi H4L,

Our situations are similar. I'm going to have to agree with Allen on the timeline. Recently, I had the timeline all figured out. I knew exactly the day he decided. It was MY fault. I worked too much, I was too involved in work, I was negative, on and on. Guess what - these were things that HE said to me. Things he convinced me were true about myself. Since I've escaped his personal attacks on me, I've realized how truly wrong he was about those things. Sure, some of it's true, I'm extremely dedicated to my career, but I've never put my career before my family - NEVER! I'm not negative, in fact, I'm extremely positive and uplifting to people around me, DAILY.

So as I pieced everything together and made it make sense in my mind - I was blindsided this weekend by something that told me that the affair hasn't been going on mere months, it's been probably a year - maybe more. In that time, we planned on buying a new house, we bought a new car, we bought a hot tub, we went on vacations with the family, we went on bike rides together, we had sex, we did ALL sorts of things. When I first suspected that he had really began pulling away, on several occasions, I offered him out after out. He said NO....he said, I was way premature in thinking that it was over, etc. This was all before I confirmed the affair. He even said he missed me and wanted to work on the marriage. We went to MC. I could go on and on. This A has been happening under my nose for so long that there is NO WAY for me to piece it together. It doesn't matter now. It happened, it's happening and it's NOT acceptable.

Please stop blaming yourself. Sure, learn from what you may have done to contribute to the marriage not being what it should be but NO ONE pushes someone to do this to another human being and their S!

Your H is selfish, selfish, selfish! Mine is too. I bet he made you think you were crazy? I bet you thought you might be. I bet he berated you and hurt your self esteem. He did this to push you away and make you THINK this was your fault. Mine did too.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 04:20 AM
OMG LH! I am so sorry for you! THat is absolutely awful. I can see where Allen's theory of affairs being addictions really fits in your case - if he can just carry on "as if" nothing were wrong in his M! How devastating! How are you coping? Big hug!!!

It's different for me as he started after moving out - but still I can so relate! I still dont believe, and because I haven't told you the context under which our M bombed you wouldn't know either, that he had OW previously. However, for almost a year, there was this "indecision" on his part...which kept me haning on, and although we didn't do all the things your family did together during this time, there was never a clear cut finality. He never said he missed me, but we were in MC to supposedly work on the M for five months - and of course even though he showed up, he never did work on much.

But YES! H blamed me, made me think I was crazy - TOLD me constantly that I was crazy (it's in my earlier threads), told me all the reasons this was my fault, in fact I started to believe I was crazy. AS you can see by the way I'm asking questions of Allen, I still struggle daily with feeling it's my fault.

I have not been able to be away from him for more than four days because I am scared to leave him alone iwth my son during "his time" due to some really bad situations that occured. You are fortunate to have been able to get distance enough to feel good about yourself again. I'm hoping if I can work out something legally, I'll never have to talk to him if I don't want to.

It was sheer agony being raged at for a year and a half, it's sheer agony the way he tossed our M away for some idiot girl, but to have to constantly see and talk to him is torture. It's even torture when he plays Mr. Nice Guy because I miss that part of him and yearn to have him back against my own better judgement. It's just so hard to detach.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 10:44 AM
Infidelity is an addiction in most cases hope4Luv, yours as well I would say...

Let me ask you this one.. how did you find out about his affair?
Posted By: Freckle6 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 01:09 PM
I don't think you're unreasonable to want primary custody. IMO even, it's what's best for your son not even taking into account your H's abuse and possible drug abuse. You've been his primary caregiver for his entire life and he is still a very little boy--almost a baby still. To disrupt that is not good, IMO, and shuffling him back and forth 50/50 is not a healthy way for him to spend these formative years.

And i don't care what dirt your husband can make up about your fitness as a parent to fight you, he moved out of the family home and left S in your care. That right there is telling that he trusts S to be in your care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 03:25 PM
Thanks Freckle! Glad you found me here!It's so good to know I"m not the only one who feels that way. I feel very strongly about it - and since S has been here with me now for ten days, I feel even stronger. It just feels sane and calm.

It's going to cost me a lot of money and emotional energy, but I want my son here. The courts in my state don't agree - but it is my deepest wish. I don't wish to keep his father away from him, just want him in his own home, with me, a constant caregiver. I'm so scared H will take him away.

Allen - H told me. IN MC a year ago he mentioned he slept with someone else. Then all the crap that came out of his mouth that everyone else here gets - we should have never married, I'm going after what I want, etc. I asked him about it again last Oct. Then I didn't hear about it again until last May when I wasn't feeling well and asked H to take S for a Saturday afternoon and he said S could come with him and OW. Finally, he introduces S to her last weekend. These are the intermittent times he has told me.
Posted By: Dudess Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
No not before. Ihave not detailed what led to him leaving, but I'm pretty clear on what made him leave in the first place - it was a reacton to me. So was getting and OW and all the anger, I suppose.


Was there something different about the incident before he left?

I don't know, but it seems you are taking his word for it about when the affair began. My H was also emotionally abusive throughout the marriage, and when he emailed me telling me not to come to Europe to vacation with him as planned, he blamed it all on me. He didn't say he wanted a divorce. He thought we should take some time apart. He expected I would be waiting at home when he returned. (I was gone.) Turns out he was pursuing another woman the whole time. He doesn't know that I know.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 04:51 PM
Take some time apart = Steer clear, I am two-timing you and don't want to get caught...

Sorry guys, I just don't buy this I want out business and magically meeting someone else just three months or so later... I don't buy it at all... It NEVER turns out to be a case in fact from what I have seen here..

So many people find out the affair in their home trails back to BEFORE the spouse moved out it ain't funny... its just sad.

It takes a LOT to walk out on a wife AND a child guys... But when you are cheating its a LOT EASIER...

Posted By: LauraOh Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 04:57 PM
I am so glad you are over here now Hope--you are going to get strong through osmosis--the "vibe" is amazing around here!!

I freak out about the money too--I'm going for primary (in FL there is no joint) but you have to do what is right for your S. There just is no way he should get that much custody.

I pray we both come out of this with our sanity intact. It is such a horrific experience to have to deal with a raging S.
Posted By: Dudess Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Take some time apart = Steer clear, I am two-timing you and don't want to get caught...



Yes. Very, very often. I recognized that immediately and so I found out the truth right away.


Hope4, your H wanting to separate and wait several months to try counseling sure sounds to me like he either was already involved with her, or hoping to be, but not ready to cut you loose yet.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 05:21 PM
Thanks for the backup Dudess smile

Sorry, but I am VERY skeptical and suspicous when someone tells me the affair started after spouse moved out.. particularly when there is no work done to verify this is the case...

I at the moment am assuming this information is all coming from... the cheating spouse yes?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 05:36 PM
Well there is evidence that he was using prescription drugs before our break up - he told me this.

"Because our M was so miserable" of course.

I still say that what I did was what caused him to leave. What caused him to stay away and not come back was the OW.

This is why I feel guilt at filing for full custody - in emotionally abusive relationships both parties are often at fault for engaging in horrible fights.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 05:39 PM
Laurah = looks like we're leading parallel lives once again. Please keep me posted on how the custody suit goes!
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 05:43 PM
OK I'll bite, what did you to to warrant him abandoning the home, you, and your five year old son?
Posted By: soleil Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 06:34 PM
Hey Hope. Long time no see. Have you seen a L at all? What is the current status of everything?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 08:14 PM
Soleil! Great to hear from you! How are you? I"ll have to catch up.

We have a legal sep that I didn't ask for anything besides enough money to live and stay in the house.

Now looking toward D, I am talking to a new, more aggressive L who will help me fight for custody.

Allen - it's all embarassing - you sent me toward Cuccoon and it's similar to that poster's - but not quite as huge. I had been msierable for a long time, but in denial. He was verbally abusive, I would not detach and get into fights with him, originally hoping to "get him to listen" but they would spiral out of control. This would happen monthly.

I started fantasizing about other men when I was doing theater. My close friend said "Don't you have any sex?" I realized not only do I have no sex or affection, I was walking on eggshells around him, and doing everything social by myself, people thought I was a single mom. I eventually kissed another man. H found out. H left immediately.

When H left, I wasn't sure I even wanted him back and played it "cool" like no big deal you left, I"ll move on.

At first he was saying that he didn't want a D, the move out was temporary for four months, and we'd start MC then, after his hurt settled down.

But that proved a fatal mistake (where I take issue with DB). He took me literally and went and got a gf, filed for legal sep, got an apt with a lease and the hell began. Suddenly it was everything I had ever done our entire M back to the first date. We should have never gotten married. He should have seen the red flags, not put up with me who scares HIM etc.

My last threads are full of the constant criticisms and berating I got daily for the past year.

But now you see I'm not innocent. When he left is when I turned around. I have been in IC, support groups, stopped theater for eight months and spent all my time with S, tried to get H to go to MC and work on our M.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/08/10 10:44 PM
OK, i would need to see the timeline to be more confident on this.

Time you started looking at other men
Time you kissed OM
Time WH found out
Time WH left

etc

Your sig doesn't have any of this in it... you should add it laugh
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 01:17 AM
Why does it matter? I can post it if it would help you, I don't know that broadcasting it on my signature would feel so good.

So I had a weak moment (still NOT OK!!!!) but he has had a RELATIONSHIP. TO me this is more hurtful.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 01:44 AM
i agree, your husband is overreacting to ONE KISS... he's an ASS
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 01:50 AM
Overreacting to pain? Is there such a thing?
I have been reading the thread and I really wonder - did you want him back? It sounds like you were more upset that he left first vs. leaving. You had second thoughts. So did he. His led him elsewhere.
I'm not saying that what he did or does is right. It sounds like he is not handling things well. It may be that he had an addiction for a long time. Allen is right that a cheating spouse uses rage as a way to process guilt. Clumsily. The LBS pays for that adultery until they know what happened. Then it makes more sense.

But it's not that clear in your case is it? You said you did something, he escalated in retaliation. You changed and feel he should too. Really?

The custody? If it really is in the best interest of the child, then by all means go get it. But the rest of it? It sounds like you both hurt each other enough for a lifetime, no? He just wasn't able to get over it the same way.

Maybe I'm misreading this. And I certainly do not condone adultery, but let's face it, he was "done". Had no furhter ties in his mind. And he was deal with his pain as he knew how. Just as you dealt with yours as you knew how. It would be nice if you both grew up and faced your issues together. It may be too late for that from the sound of it.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 02:17 AM
Sorry but abandoning children because your wife kissed another man is just freakin childish... seriously... It's freakin jeuvenile...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 04:29 AM
Agreed.

He was NOT done - until OW came along. That's what I"m seeing now. Actually, he continued to act as if not done until we had been separated over a year - during which he continued to say "maybe" we would reconsile and we were in MC, spending all holidays together etc.

He claims it was all the miserable years together, not my interest in possibly separating. He was NOT done - until OW came along.We had a plan for reconsiliation. As for me, once we separated and I tried it, it was real, and I didn't want it. Guess I should have never said those words. But I'm human. I was unhappy in the M and not facing it. I did want him back once I got a little space and looked myself straight in the eye for what I had done wrong in the M. Something I continue to do.

Nevertheless, someone committed to M would see it through the hard times. Even if time apart is needed first. Work out our needs and problems together, not in creating a new R with someone new.I would have worked it out with him - if he were willing to own up and stop pointing a finger and comparing me to OW. I see many folks on here whose spouse had EAs and PAs - and still want to work it out. Like me. IT's no excuse to put a little child through this. This is what I realized when we took our "temporary separation". What I did was wrong, as is what he is doing. Frankly having a fullblown relationship when times are tough is the most hurtful thing to me - if it were just sex, it might be easier. I betrayed him. But he betrayed me too. Yes, it's been painful. Yes, we hurt each other. But I am willing and have been looking hard at myself and making necessary changes. He looked to partying and finding someone else. Period.

H says "You didn't want me then and now you want me back. I don't trust you." OK, that's a starting point, IMO, not an end point.

Oh well I'm sick of who is right and who is wrong. I just wish H would work it out with me. I hate to give up the recent niceness we've been having...it feels more friendly which I wanted for the past year so desperatey, and which is good for S. But on this forum everyone says not to be friends. Doesn't this hurt the child too? I hate to lose the friend side, but I see how that is making the OW "ok" and sending a doormat message. Ugh this sucks!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 04:44 AM
BTW I admitted right away that I had an addiction to fantasy and romance as a means of escaping the pain of a M in which we weren't facing the problems. I got into therapy, joined a 12 step group for "love addiction" and loooked at myself in ways I never wanted to before. I continue to do so. I admitted and faced and am still working with addicted tendencies - H has had none of these revalations although he also is addicted.

And the rage isn't just from OW, he had it ever since I"ve known him and it got worse when we were married, even worse since we had a child.

He never once said he left because of other men. He said it was the painful relationship we had. HOwever, there were never any solutions to that offered by him besides leaving. On the other hand, he never once said "I will not be in a M with someone who cheated, I'm getting a D and am not coming back." I stayed in the dreaded limbo hoping he'd come around, see my changes, etc.

Believe me, I hear what you are saying. We both hurt each other. This is what I struggle with daily. But of course I want to grow and change within the relationship. I was acting immaturely and I want to act more maturely now. I think it's clear he doesn't. Not to blame. But I never heard him once say that he wanted to change to make our M better.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 12:57 PM
Yup.. No doubt about it... He's being an ass...

Did he know OW before he moved out? Is this a co-worker or something?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 02:55 PM
No he works at home - he's a ocmputer nerd. He started hanging out with all these role-playing game type people. I assume she's from there. I don't really know or want to know.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
No he works at home - he's a ocmputer nerd. He started hanging out with all these role-playing game type people. I assume she's from there. I don't really know or want to know.


Same here Hope... same here.. I hate RPG's now... :P
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 03:35 PM
Note that I am not condoning his behavior. Just pointing out another side to the conversation. His actions are based on the same hurt, right? Has he ever been able to live up to your expectations? Do you only want him back so you can live your dream of an intact family or do you love him for who he is? Know the difference.

Quote:
This is what I realized when we took our "temporary separation". What I did was wrong, as is what he is doing. Frankly having a fullblown relationship when times are tough is the most hurtful thing to me - if it were just sex, it might be easier. I betrayed him. But he betrayed me too. Yes, it's been painful. Yes, we hurt each other. But I am willing and have been looking hard at myself and making necessary changes. He looked to partying and finding someone else. Period.
That's accusatory and judgemental. You are angry. I get that. But this really just points to two people at two different places in the relationship. You handled it one way. He handled it another. See below for more thoughts.

Quote:
H says "You didn't want me then and now you want me back. I don't trust you." OK, that's a starting point, IMO, not an end point.
Right. Why would he trust you? What has changed for a LONG ENOUGH PERIOD that he would trust you? See, that is a big deal. Trust. I'm pointing this out for a reason, Hope.

Quote:
Oh well I'm sick of who is right and who is wrong.
Perfect. You show great growth here. He doesn't. Yet. Again, that's two people in two different places in the relationship.


Quote:
He never once said he left because of other men. He said it was the painful relationship we had. HOwever, there were never any solutions to that offered by him besides leaving. On the other hand, he never once said "I will not be in a M with someone who cheated, I'm getting a D and am not coming back." I stayed in the dreaded limbo hoping he'd come around, see my changes, etc.
Just because he didn't say it..... Let me re-word this as I would have seen it had that been said to me (it was). "I waited around waiting for the changes YOU needed to make and you did not. You are not worthy of being my husband because you would have changed. I would not accept you until you did. It's your fault the marriage isn't working." Change? What was his motivation to change again?



Quote:
Believe me, I hear what you are saying. We both hurt each other. This is what I struggle with daily. But of course I want to grow and change within the relationship. I was acting immaturely and I want to act more maturely now. I think it's clear he doesn't. Not to blame. But I never heard him once say that he wanted to change to make our M better.
Again, you are saying that you want to grow and therefore he should too. Is that unreasonable? No. Is that controlling? Judgemental? Yes and yes. It comes across as you inflicting your will on him. Controlling.


For him to walk away from his child is a big deal. It's not right and likely causes additional pain. But it may be all he can do to keep himself shiny side up on the road. Have you considered that? Have you considered that your feelings of change and how big a deal something is or is not, may not be the same as his? You hurt. He hurts. You deal with it one way. He deals with it another way.

What he tells the OW? I'm sure there are many things in that conversation that are true. Some may be exaggerated. Some are part of lashing out due to the pain most likely. You can't blame her in this. This is his decision.

So where are we? I think it's like this: you made a few mistakes. Should it be the end of the marriage? I don't think so. But what I think is irrelevant. What he thinks and what you think are relevant.

Have you asked him how the two of you can rebuild the trust and respect between you? Keeping in mind your mothering instinct that the child is worth saving the marriage and should be for him to, may not be how a man thinks? smile

What I hear in your posts is that you don't respect him. That you want him to be a certain way that fits your vision and it doesn't sound like you leave a lot of room for him to be him. Add in the other issues that may be present (addictions) and it's small wonder he doesn't want to come back.

Did he lead you on? Maybe. Maybe he was waiting for you to change to meet his expectations. The same as you have been.

Drop the expectations. Drop the past. Build the trust. Do what it takes to build that trust before it's too late.

Friendship? Is that not where relationships start? Just asking.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 03:39 PM
Originally Posted By: AJM
but let's face it, he was "done". Had no furhter ties in his mind. And he was deal with his pain as he knew how.


Ummmm.. How do YOU know he was done AJM?

Last time I checked mind-reading was still science fiction.
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 05:23 PM
Hey Allen. It is science fiction. I don't know he was "done" but I can see from the posts that there is another side to this. I'm offering a possible reality. One that seems to me is very possible.
I see a couple that has hurt each other immensely. I see that his actions are all geared towards lashing out at the pain and ultimately her.

Can I know it? Nope. Nobody knows what's in his head but him. But I do not for a second think that Hope is seeing both sides. Seems to be seeing things as desired and from one perspective. I think it's valuable if she sees that there is another side. I think it will help.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 05:38 PM
Saying "there is another side" and "a possible reality".. "nobody knows what's in his head but him"..."don't think Hope is seeing both sides"...

This is all very carefully worded expressions of the obvious...

The question is how to solve this problem quickly and with a minimum amount of pain and damage...

I am concerned that stating "there's another side" doens't really get to a solution now does it...

What's the most effective way to get the marriage in a place where the spouse can cooperate?

Putting the affair OUT of the WAY is a great start.. THEN an HONEST uncontaminated side can be heard :


Holes in the Roof

Penny R. Tupy June 2004

I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)

So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.

A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.

It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.

But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.

This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.

The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.

Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.

Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.

As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.

Wishing you clear skies…
Penny
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 07:53 PM
AJM I appreciate what you are saying. HAve you read my last three threads? Ironically, I actually think it's judgemental of you to assume I have not seen his side. I tried for the past year and a half to listen, have empathy, rebuild trust. I have been completely understanding for the past year and a half of his feelings, actions, and words. I have loved him from afar, letting him do his thing and working on myself. What has it gotten me? Abuse. IF anything, it's time I got more in reality and set some boundaries. Sorry, but you are way off.

I tried to meet his every expectation and need. For nothing.

"What I hear in your posts is that you don't respect him. That you want him to be a certain way that fits your vision and it doesn't sound like you leave a lot of room for him to be him. Add in the other issues that may be present (addictions) and it's small wonder he doesn't want to come back. "

- This is just plain mean when you don't even know me.
-Sorry, but if there are drugs around my child, especially if the pilot of a plane is addicted, I will take measures to protect my son. I can love and understand my H's pain. But I won't watch him bring my son down with him.

Thanks for the input, however, you obviously put a lot of time and thought into posting on this thread but quit making assumptions of me that you have no idea about.

Allen, I love this article. Thank you. The discussions here of the last few days are helping stop blaming myself for everything and see reality more clearly. It's what I'm seeing - that so many of his "complaints," while some are based in reality, are exaggerated by the OW in the picture. And the fact that he will berate me for these things but not be willing to work on them is also from the OW presence. IF he was done, he would have told me so and been done.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 08:12 PM
AJ - I just read some of your thread, and it appears you feel your wife is controlling. Please don't project this onto me.

"Let me re-word this as I would have seen it had that been said to me (it was). "I waited around waiting for the changes YOU needed to make and you did not. You are not worthy of being my husband because you would have changed. I would not accept you until you did. It's your fault the marriage isn't working."

-THis is what you heard from your wife, not at all what I said to my H.

If you read my past threads, you may see that we have more in common than is apparent on my new thread. Best of luck, and I'm done defending myself now. smile
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/09/10 09:35 PM
Hi Hope. No offense is intended or implied. What I'm trying to do is ask the question. I see from your posts that you "feel" like you have listened. That you "feel" like you have tried.

I'm not trying to make you defensive. That's counterproductive. If this causes that, then perhaps I'm not getting my point across.

My point is this:
I don't know you. That's true. I don't know all of your situation. I'm suggesting that perhaps your definition and his don't match up. Your perspective and his are vastly different. Your efforts to build trust might not match his expectations.

I do this because it seems you are not getting the results you would like to see and may need to change your approach.

So I point out the other side.

I am not trying to project other things. I am however familiar with my own experience and can relate to it. When I see similarities, I can point them out. If they are not helpful, then please disregard. I am not attacking you and have no intention of doing so. In fact, it is painful to try and relate like that. At least for me. To see that other side and to put myself (possibly) into his head.

To be clear: the drugs around your son? I agree that should not be tolerated even once. That is a separate issue from your relationship with your husband and may be a deal breaker for you. I would certainly understand if it was. If that's the reason you kick him to the curb, then so be it. The rest no longer matters, right?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/10/10 06:17 PM
So these recent conversations explain the exact dilemma I feel - how do I look at my husband? Is he in an affair/addiction, or has he just "moved on?" Do I quietly accept that he is finding happiness elsewhere or fight for my M? Do I work with his new life in terms of coparenting or do I fight to keep the OW and his partying lifestyle as far from my son as possible?

Obviously, I believe that he is in an addiction and I need to protect my son. But how can I be sure? I hear others when they say let go and work with the new sitch and move on. Just want to be certain that I'm doing the right thing so I know how to proceed, in my perception of H, my custody battle, and my attitude toward marriage.
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/10/10 06:25 PM
Hi Hope. Happened by about the same time you posted.
The dilemma - hopefully it helps to articulate it.

Addiction? You can't make him stop I suspect. You can confront and bring it to crisis, but only he can stop it sadly.

The OW? Does it matter if the addiction is there?
Accept that he is finding happiness? I've never known a happy addict while they were using. But your choices are more about you and your son at this point since you really can't get husband to change if he doesn't want to.

How to proceed? Only you can answer that since you have to live with it. But I think it may have been helpful to put it all in perspective. At least I hope it was.

Regardless of what you, your son deserves to be safe and to have a relationship with his dad - in that order. In my opinion.

Your ability to love and be loved? I think you have to answer that. You have to know that you are who you are and that what got you here is the past and not your future. You have to figure out if you made a mistake in choosing him, or if he changed along the way in ways you could not tolerate. So that you know if you need to change what you look for in a marriage should you go that route.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/10/10 06:26 PM
This is my issue with the MLC diagnosis Hope... It just paralyzes you.. I don't support it at all.

The research myself and others on the Infidelity forum are finding is that treating infidelity is the same, despite the cause of it...

MLC, Ego, Boredom, whatever.. it matters little, you attack the affair the same way according to infidelity experts... There is acknowledgement by Lusterman and others that there are different kinds of motivations for infidleity, but the TREATMENT is the same...

The MLC forum will disagree, and they are welcoem to their opinion there... I dont' invade their space or bring my arguments over there...

But that's my position and what I am finding from researching infideltiy on this forum and in expert documentation on cases... infidelity may have different reasons for starting but they END the SAME WAY - CONSEQUENCES
Posted By: AJM Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/10/10 07:53 PM
Allen, we agree. Consequences.
To Hope: My thought about the OW being a concern or not: I mean it in the way that, does it matter if that goes away if the addiction isn't dealt with? The addiction is still in the way of the marriage from what I see. I think the question is asked this way: which to deal with first, if I decide to deal with them? If so, I would say the addiction is the big one. But I could be wrong as to which to deal with first. Just that you can't deal with both at the same time as effectively as if you dealt with one at a time.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 06:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A



But that's my position and what I am finding from researching infideltiy on this forum and in expert documentation on cases... infidelity may have different reasons for starting but they END the SAME WAY - CONSEQUENCES



That's why this doesn't fit:
"What I hear in your posts is that you don't respect him. That you want him to be a certain way that fits your vision and it doesn't sound like you leave a lot of room for him to be him. "

It's not at all that I don't respect him or leave him to be him - it's that I am not respecting the actions of affair and drug use (even if he is not addicted). There will have to be consequences. If not from me, then the courts. Of course he doesn't see it my way. Other wise boundaries and consequences wouldn't be necessary.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 08:07 AM
Ok, Allen, I know where I stand internally. Now I need help with a game plan. I need help with boundaries (big time - had a backslide tonight - might post it later, but too tired now).

Given - we're separated, and he considers OW a gf, not infidelity, and presumably that OW knows he's married...

I was reading this on another thread...is this something you suggest for me as well?...

"And again you don't threaten consequences.. you just DO IT

She will blast you

You use the confrontation script again

a - g

Then you exit and wait...

She does it again

You bring what consequences you can down on her head

She blasts you

you restrict her again

She will gradually realize you won't be a doormat... She will realize if she cheats, there are consequences and she will curb the activity and try to play fair...

usually.. this isn't 100%, but you need to set a boundary here and show what happens when its violated"
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 01:43 PM
This is the process I usually reccomend yes...

You want to assert yourself, with dignity and maturity, while ensuring he acts in a way that respects you.

No one finds a doormat attractive... Once you start sticking up for yourself you have a better chance of impressing him.

Never mind what he "considers" OW to be... YOU press your own values into this that put children first...

OM "considers" it ok to threaten marraiges too... with children! That's pretty SICK!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 05:05 PM
AT this point, I cannot worry what he finds "attractive" I have lived too long trying to meet his needs and pull his interest back toward the M with consistent disappointment. Right now I am intersted in what might encourage him to see that what he is doing is hurting our son, me and our marriage.

Last night I failed at DB- tried to talk and explain my worries, why do I keep thinking he will understand?

So I need action. A clear list of actions.
Posted By: TimeHeals Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 06:19 PM
Quote:
Right now I am intersted in what might encourage him to see that what he is doing is hurting our son, me and our marriage.



So... you'd like to control him, what he thinks, and how he feels.

It's not going to happen. You'll just make yourself miserable trying.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 06:26 PM
If you want him to stop hurting you, you need his respect first... People have no inhibitions about hurting people if they don't respect them.

Respect I think needs to come first... This isn't about being appealing, its about character. I know its hypocritical given his behaviour. But until he respects you, he's not going to concern himself with what he's doing to you or his kids.
Posted By: eeyore_no_more Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 06:38 PM
Hope,

I'm just getting here, so I apologize if I'm going over old ground...

Have you tried setting him free? Sending him a "Protection Letter", and having all communication about S5 done through a third party?

Encouraging him to rejoin the M doesn't seem to be working, and it's making you miserable. You're right; let him feel the consequences of his actions. Remove yourself from his life for a while so he can see that you aren't the cause of his unhappiness.

Between your H's addictions to OW, drugs and online RPG's, suing for full custody seems like the right thing to do. You don't want your child in that environment, and he is definitely not acting like a fit parent right now.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/11/10 06:42 PM
Yes, this is my point. You assert the importance of protectiong teh health of you, your family, and the home it takes attention OFF of him and ONTO what he's doing...

He will respect you for protecting his home.

Example :

You are hurting me, our children, and the stability of this house hold... You need to leave.

You are a hurtful person, mean, cruel, and selfish... you need to leave

The first one is a lot more respectable of an approach...

You don't need his agreement for the first one... You just say it and exit the convo... the second one is weak and invites a lot of debate
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/12/10 10:02 AM
THX friends. BTW I am not "asking him to leave" we are separated. He comes over two out of his three nights to have dinner and put S to bed since he is small, but he doesn't take him the whole night.
In other words, I can't ask him to move out, he already did that over a year ago.

As for setting him free - he's been free. He was fence sitting (at least that's what he told me, and we were in MC - could have been lies as there was OW) for a long time, then in May told me he wasn't coming back. We stopped MC then and I have gone dim. If you see a way that I"m not setting him free, pls explain.

I have not had a third party take S because there is drop off only one night per week. I also have watched H closely to make sure he is not losing his temper at S as he tends to be verbally and emotionally abusive, or staring at a computer screen when around S much of the time.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/12/10 10:05 AM
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Quote:
Right now I am intersted in what might encourage him to see that what he is doing is hurting our son, me and our marriage.



So... you'd like to control him, what he thinks, and how he feels.

It's not going to happen. You'll just make yourself miserable trying.


no. I am talking about drawing boundaries as talking gets us nowhere. I'm not talking about control. See Allen's advice above - very good statement.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/13/10 06:26 PM
So any guidelines / suggestions for a plan of action? Consequences!...
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/14/10 01:18 PM
YOu are the best one to come up with consequences... They are specific to your situation.

YOU know what you can do better than any of us.

Consequences are pretty much anything that causes your husband's life more difficulty.

You want to minimize the convenience of separation...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/17/10 06:20 AM
I am not sure, but here is what I've come up with after thinking long and hard - what do you think?

-NC - no more cake eating, "being friends", "family time" etc
-no phone calls included - only email
-going to the Lawyer this week - fight for more custody (now he has 50%), make him pay the lawyer fees, get him to have to take a drug test and not take s5 in his airplane, parenting classes and anger management classes, no paramour, and keep the status quo (he has S only one night per week)
-No more of me being flexible and taking S on "his" nights
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/17/10 06:23 AM
AFter introducing S to OW without telling me a few weeks ago, I get an email this weekend, saying "How would you feel if OW is around during my time with S on Sunday. I"m not planning on it, but it might happen and you said you would prefer to know ahead of time".

I saw red. He knows how I feel! Or at least he should, I've told him till I'm blue in the face! And, I asked him to consider and respect my feelings, not "let me know" when he is going to disregard them. So, the meeting with the lawyer this week. He is never going to respect my words. Let's see what he does with my actions.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/17/10 06:03 PM
You want him to warn you when he's going to disregard your feelings?

That's what you asked for was a warning?

Yes, ACTIONS are what counts here.. what you say he's just going to ignore...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 01:18 AM
Yes, you are right - he is ignoring what I say.

No, I didn't ask him to warn me when he's going to disregard my feelings. This is how he rewrote what I said. I had said I was in no way comfortable with S5 being around OW and that it was not ok with me and if he was wanting to do that we need to go to parenting classes, read articles, and AGREE how and when if at all it is appropriate to introduce S to someone we are dating. The point is he introduced them when I had clearly stated it wasn't ok with me. H tried to say "well if you aren't going to COMPROMISE with me" (MC lingo!!!grrr!!) then you can't control what what I do and I'll just do it without talking to you , BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT MY GF.

He claimed to "not remember" when I told him I thought it was in no way appropriate for OW to meet S, and even we had a huge argument that lasted days!!!!! I still remember it because I had to stay at a friend;s house and it was so traumatizing I started going dim then. He claims to "not remember" this. Paleez!!!!

He refuses to see -this is bigger than just introducing S to someone he is dating. This OW is the reason (or excuse!) he decided not to work on our marriage. He will not listen to me when I say this nor see my point of view, but it's what I"ve come to believe through this forum.

H is not only disrespecting our M by shacking up with OW, but he is disrespecting how it I and S5 feel to introduce this interloper.

Make more sense?

I don't know why I keep trying to TALK to him, like I can reason with an addict! So ok - ACTION.

So what do you think of my list?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:13 AM
YOu ARE reasoning with an addict my dear... Infidelity IS an addiction like all the others... dangerous, destructive, and selfish....

The list is a good start.
He's going to respect consequences a lot more than your feelings right now
If he has to get a drug test done because he chose to introduce your son to OW then he may think twice
He's not forgotten you told him, he's just being passive aggressive... most of them are about this stuff
The thing is, he has consequences he can hurt you with - you son
You need something to bring him back in line and cooperate with you... Right now he clearly isn't capable of negotiation without leverage of some sort on your part
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:21 AM
Right, I know - addictions: OW while still legally married to me, and possibly drugs. Even if used recreationally, very worrisome.

I don't know what other consequences I can hand him since he has moved out and gotten the fantasy life he thinks he wants - except to go to the L and act on the stuff previously mentioned: drug test, parenting class, anger management class, custody battle detailing his abuse and neglectful behavior, and of course, a hefty lawyer bill. He's getting a drug test because he's admitted doing illegal drugs. He's getting a custody battle and parenting classes because he's introduced S to OW (and been verbally and emotionally abusive to both of us).

NC I guess is the only thing. He must get a lot out of treating me like crap, luring me into reacting, and then pointing a finger to justify his actions. I will not give him this anymore, "trying to reason" with him definitely included - it becomes a forum for him to continue to argue and then blame me for being difficult. THen when I pull back he's Mr. Nice Guy and like you said all this is is passive aggression because more secrets come out. ONce I drop the rope and he can't play me, has consequences, we'll see what happens.

Any more suggestions?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:25 AM
I would definitely get an intermediary to handle communications with him... a marriage friendly one.

I take it exposure wasn't successful at all?

I am surprised his work allows him to use drugs and isnt' concerned...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:32 AM
He works alone, from home, a computer guy. Nobody to answer to. He claims he uses them to "relax" from his "anxiety".

There is no exposure. He moved out, then got a gf. I told him mom, and although she said "sorry he's being an a$$," she also told me she is going to be partial to her son's side. Frankly, his whole family is passive aggressive and avoids each other so I don't think they care. The ones he has told presumably agree with him that if he is separated, he is "free" to date whomever he wants. REmember, both brothers are drug addicts, dad is abusive, and mom is a sex addict. Parents are divorced.

PS I'm also going to ask L for a "no paramour" thing - I don't know if we have them in our state.

Also, what are "truth darts" - you advised this earlier back:
"You need some good truth darts to throw at him.. statements.."
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:36 AM
Good Lord.

OK, the only other exposure route I can think of right now is whomever he works for... If they know he's using drugs recreationally they may chose not to work with him...

This is the problem with marriages with unhealthy social circles... your WH has surrounded himself with people that live unhealthy lives... So when things get tenuous the people around him aren't prepared to help at all...

The lawyer may be your best bet.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 04:45 AM
Yep.

I'll think about the work thing. He was anti social when we lived together, only occasionally getting together with old coworkers in group settings. But since leaving he has some new groups of "role playing gamers" and various similar type things _ I don't know any of these people, but assume they are all younger, anti social, and probably into drugs. But I can't say. You can see why I am very leary of S spending any amount of time with him .I don't know any of these people whereas H knows all my friends or is always invited to meet them - completely open. I assume, but don't know, OW is from one of these groups as well, so these people don't know his "other life" so to speak.

And remember, if he gets fired, I have no money or health insurance either.

Ps - "truth darts"???

PPSS thank you so much for your clarity and perspective - it's really helping me see through the fog..thank you!!!
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 05:21 AM
He's been building up unhealthy connectiosn for a while then... This is common... If his income is important to you then you may just want to use that as a threat... When he complains about the drug test then tell him if he takes your son anywhere near OW again you will be reporting his drug usage to all his clients as well... And then hang up...

Truth darts would do best to center around healthy environment for son :

Drugs, lies, and anti-socialites aren't the best things to be exposing a five year old to...


You're ability to father this child is suspect at the moment : drugs, lies, and abandonment isn't exactly something he's going to be proud to hear about when he gets old enough.

Sons want a father they can be proud of - not a source of shame.


Something like that... It's important to hang up after you've said your piece so your point resonates.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 05:45 AM
OOH - that's way more tough than I ever am...I'll have to rehearse it first. I love it! I hope I can do it. He'll just laugh me off, call me crazy, and say I am the bad influence, but hey, if I hang up I can only imagine him saying it, right?? LOVE IT
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 05:58 AM
The thing is, truth darts don't get a positive reaction... But if its said forcefully enough, and often enough, and simple enough it will sink in...

It will resonate in his mind...

What he DOES with it is a roll of the dice... but the truth darts can get in there... It has to be quick and sharp.. the one I wrote above is probably a bit wordy... But its a draft at least...

He won't react well when he hears it... that's why you hang up.

but it CAN get him thinking even if he will never admit it to you

I think it was PDT's who used this on his wife. He had told his wife she wans't just a bad wife, but a bad mother (she had been neglecting their kids)...

After that her attentiveness to their children improved. She did NOT end the affair, or say anything by way of agreement, but it did sink in... even if she never admitted he was right

Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 06:29 AM
Makes sense to me, I'll have to come up with a few, practice them, and shoot them off. LOVE IT
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 08:08 AM
Allen et al...

What kind of third party can I get? Mainly for hand offs with S, also when I get H to remove his stuff from my home.

Which leads me to...how to I get him to get his stuff out of my home? What do I say in the email? (When his standard response is, "I still own half the house")
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 05:10 PM
You tell him its for your convenience and his that he has his belongings with him... And that its hurtful to you to have them hanging around the house.

You know him though, so you can always modify this according to his demeanor.

Preferably the intermediary is a strong willed person who is marriage friendly, fully informed on your WH's affair and who won't take any of his crap.

Stick to email only.

And they have to be ready to threaten calling the police in a snap.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 05:18 PM
Could be my dad = besides that I don't know who to ask! WIsh they had professionals for hire! Allen - want a job? lol

I have already asked him to remove his things and per usual, he is just letting it slide = I need to ask again but I feel like an idiot chasing him around like this!
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 06:44 PM
YOu dont' ask him to remove them... YOU do it..

You have to understand attachment and how that works, its covered in Overcoming Infidelity. As long as his things are there, he feels like he's still got a relationship there with you as well... He's not going to take his things himself... Them being there allows him to mark territory.

You have to get rid of them.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 10:05 PM
But isn't that against the law to touch someone else's stuff?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 10:20 PM
Also, I have not purchased Tupy's book. But what does she say about someone like me who has made so many mistakes, and for so long (affair=1 yr, I've let him cake eat and treat me like a doormat, says he's 'moved on' and I should too)?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/18/10 11:22 PM
If you want your marriage, you put the effort in... You will regret NOT having tried...

http://24.141.78.27/OvercomingInfidelity.pdf

I have put this link up and the guerilla db video link up elsewhere as well...

Lots more coverage in there.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 01:16 AM
thank you!!!!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 03:54 AM
Allen et al, HELP!

So before I had these discussions with you about consequences, I had a series of emails going back and forth to WAH regarding OW.

1) H asked "how I would feel" if OW was hanging out with him and S5 tomorrow during H's "time."
2) I responded how irresponsible it was, and especially that he introduced them without talking to me about it - more lies.
3) So he said "Ok when can we have the discussion?"

It's a set up, folks and I don't know how to respond.
1) He's not going to listen to me or respect my wishes anyhow
2) He has blamed me for "not being willing to have the discussion" as an excuse to hide their meeting (and their relationship during our five months of MC and during the entire time legal separation agreement was being drafted - only told me once it was signed "To avoid me blowing up and going crazy and creating a big expensive D fight") so if I don't have this useless discussion, I'm blamed further.
3) It will just be a fight and a waste of breath IMO but I could try?

He also is feeling that I'm going NC again - this is a ploy to rope me back into the craziness, hurt me, control me, etc...

Here's the end of the email chain:

WAH:just to cover all the bases, what would you think if OW were around for a later afternoon activity? please note: I do *not* expect she would be around, and am not planning it; I expect she will by in the city and I have no plan to take S into the city on Sunday; I am simply raising this because of what happened a couple of weeks ago, where you said you would prefer to know of any possibility ahead of time.


ME: didn't say I "prefer to know of a possiblity" for you to bring S along on your dates, I said that I want us to talk and agree on how and when is appropriate to "introduce" such people into our child's life, if at all. This is a very big deal for him and quite confusing. I believe it is totally inappropriate, unnecessary, and irresponsible, but at the very least this is something we should learn about, discuss at length, and negotiate, IMO. I do not feel comfortable with you "just letting me know ahead of time" although that is better than secrecy, admittedly.

Try imagining if the tables were turned - something you don't feel is good for S but I just say "I'm just going to let you know ahead of time when I do it anyhow regardless of your feelings as his father."


WAH: Ok, let's try to do that ... so when would be some times when you would be available for a discussion?

DO I respond with an email? A truth dart? HELP!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 04:02 AM
I feel like saying - you already lost the chance for the discussion when you went behind my back. Also, you have ignored all my requests for discussions regarding other things such as discipline with S - perhaps after we have those discussions, and attend parenting classes, we can have that discussion.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 04:18 AM
I need a boundary here - I'm terrible at it - someone please steer me in the right direction.
Maybe I should just file a temporary protective restraining order...
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 04:27 AM
You tell him NO ONE introduces your SON to ANYONE unless you are BOTH comfortable with it.. which goes for you as well.

And you hang up.

Don't argue, you put the boundary and end the convo.

Unless you have some leverage he's just going to keep goading you with it though... He has no reason to introduce her... You can get your L to include a "no paramour order", but he can always disregard that and you would prove he had disregarded it...

It's a waste of time negotiating with him

YOu can't file a restraining order on OW I don't believe, but you can always TALK to your LAWYER about this... Your WH WILL obey the LAW... that's your strongest leverage right now.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 04:28 AM
There are spouses on here who have put a no paramour order in place through their lawyer that won't allow a spouse to introduce an affair partner to any children from the marriage.

You really need to talk to your lawyer about this one.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 05:26 AM
ok, the meeting is set up for Tuesday with the lawyer.

So, it's the statement over the phone and hang up. That's good advice. Not over email? On the phone only?

And you are right, once he starts pushing and bullying he doesn't stop until he gets his way. I know this from bad past experiences. You are right I can only go through the law as no way will he care one way or the other how I feel.

And by the way, he already introduced them. That is a non issue. The issue now is he is pushing to spend weekend with both of them (S and OW).
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/19/10 03:46 PM
You get the lawyer to put a no paramour order in place, others on this forum have done so... This means he can't expose you son to OW by order of law.

YOu can put the statements in email, but remember he will take anything you write down into a courtoom with him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/20/10 08:09 PM
I sent an article via email and said that my feeling is a firm NO until we read articles, go to parenting classes, and speak with psychologists. I said this would show that he has S's best interest at heart and he is open to hearing other points of view.

This thing about him wanting to "talk about it" is so ridiculous because he simply wants to argue his point, not question if what he is doing is right or wrong.

Lawyer tomorrow. I'm getting scared, cold feet, crying a lot. It is so hard to let go and not be tempted to minimal contact and status quo and some illusion of harmony between H, S, and me, I fear I will make things worse by blowing this all up and enraging H and starting a costly fight.

But what else can I do? I can't have a reasonable discussion with an addict.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/20/10 08:24 PM
well he discredited the source of the article, said he's already researched the potential problems, and still feels he's right. So much for "conversation' right?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/20/10 10:34 PM
Yup, you can see the convo is pointless.

He "feels" he's right is the key point here.. He isn't doing research or thinking logically.. He's doing what pleases him.

You can't "feel" something being right. It can feel "good", but it can't feel "right"... sorry, but that's just BS

When he tries to argue just diffuse it :


You don't have any research to present to support yourself. You're just making this up and I won't waste my time on that nonsense.


OR


You can argue all you want. Research from actual professionals says otherwise. And I am going to trust people who know what they're talking about.

When you have something concrete you let me know.

I don't have time to listen to you make stuff up.. I'm a busy woman.


OR


You aren't right... You're just LOUD...


OR


Being loud has nothing to do with being educated on this subject... A gorilla can yell... I want to understand that you have actually done a lot of research for your son... But clearly you haven't.

You can be loud with someone else... I am not going to expose our son to this nonsense.


Stuff like that.. Just DISMISS the argument rather than engage him.

When you argue with him you set boundaries too. Boundaries of fair debate etc... When he crosses a line there you call him on it and EXIT The argument immediately.

He will learn to argue fair or he knows you will just dismiss him and exit.

Each time he does it you call him on it again. Use the exact same words.

If he's just TALKING then cut him off there and tell him you will be happy to read anything he sends you but you aren't going to stand about and listen to him yell while he makes things up on the spot... etc
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/21/10 01:05 AM
thank you allen

sadly, he beat me to it and accused me of a lot of those same things

I sent him a list of questions which he never responded to
I also asked for the articles he was quoting that "support his decision" and he did not send them.

but next time I'll be armed!

Here's what he emailed me:
"I *never* said I knew all the facts or that I know my decision is (absolutely) right. Feel free to show me where I said that, if I have forgotten. All I said was that I looked at the article you sent and others like it, and based on what they were saying, there was not a recommendation that ran counter to what I was doing. That doesn't prove anything, except that I have made a decision that complies with the opinions of the various writers.

Now, you are saying that despite that, you think I should completely alter my decision and behavior based on theoretical, potential danger.

Yes, I do "know all the problems [you] have with it" -- and it's very wide ranging and doesn't narrow down to specifics. I understand how you feel in general. If you have specific things to discuss -- for example, specific guidance on when things should happen (or not happen), or what context, or the kinds of events, or how to talk about it, etc. -- that will be good.

The reason it is "on you" to make the appointment (with a child psychologies) is because you are asking me, without *specific* argument or evidence, to do something that I don't want to do; that the article authors do not advise me to do; that my friends/family have not advised me to do; that my therapist has not advised me to do; and which I am not at all obligated to do."
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/21/10 01:48 AM
Just give him a simple response...


You can make all the excuses you want smart guy... No one is buying your BS... Particularly YOU.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 06:37 PM
So H sends me this huge email detailing why having OW around S5 would be such a great idea...as long as I don't make it a big deal.

Please.

I don't want an email trail of my responses, but I also don't want to talk to him. He's threatening to bring OW to S's birthday party next week - I said if so, I will split the party - he can have one with half of S's friends, I will have another.

The no paramour does not work now that he has seen this woman for a year - it only works up to six months.

I spoke with a lawyer yesterday. Our legal separation agreement says that S can stay at H's house 50% of the time but H has not insisted on this.

The only way to change the agreement is to file for D and fight for more custody!

I'm scared if I make waves, H will claim his legal right to take S to his place 50% of the time.

The L says that FAA regulations are that H cannot fly legally while taking anti-anxiety meds. H knows this and has gotten a prescription, off his medical record so that FAA wont find out. First thing L wants to do is let both the FAA and the law know that he is flying illegally. H is going to flip a lid at me. It will start WW3.

I'm scared. Really scared.

Scared to file for D. Scared of his rage. Scared of him taking S. Scared of OW being around (apparently I can't stop him and he is too defiant to care how I feel). I'm scared of how much money this costs (I'm an at home mom working odd jobs, few job skills).

Just had to let you all know. Any advice or support welcome.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 06:44 PM
THe other question I have for Allen et al:

YOu suggested I might tell him that if he brings OW near S again I will tell of his drug use. Now that I know for sure he is breaking the FAA regulations, should I personally threaten this - or just go straight to the L and have her alert the FAA?

It's actually important because apparently the meds affect people differently when they are in the air and I don't want S with H in the plane. That is the main concern with exposing the meds to the FAA - but is it possible to use this to also keep OW away?
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 07:01 PM
The concern here is verifiability.

If you threaten him in order to get him to back off of S with OW what can he do to cover up his illegal activity?

Do you have PROOF right NOW that he's been violating the law?

You have to remember that threatening someone ALSo gives them WARNING where they are vulnerable.

If your WH can clean that up before he gets caught then you have no leverage anymore ANd he will be vendictive aboutt his.

If you simply report him he as no warning and doens't have a chance to clean things up first.

That's the issue between threatening and simply reporting him outright... time to prepare

If you have PROOF that he can't deny NOW then he can't clean things up and you can threaten him all you like...

But if you don't have proof yet and he can clean up his act before atuhorities GET proof then I woudln't threaten...

YOu said your lawyer was attempting to do this and I am wondering what is the lawyer's objective?

Is he expecting to get you 100% custody by doing this or something?

It sounds like you dont' have much of a support network there.. You really need to get a hold of a social worker to talk about all of this and what your S is being exposed to as well...

You need more supoprt outside this forum... This does sound like social services should be involved here.. Your WH does NOT sound fit to parent a child at all right now and the SW may be able to make a case for you
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 07:17 PM
The L's objective #1 is to keep S out of the plane for his safety.

The second objective is to build a case that H has poor judgement and should not have 50% custody. This in addition to my list of abusive statements and actions by H is the stuff of the case.

As for a SW - that is a good idea. How do I find one? My psychologist offered to call Child Protective Services but I am worried they will scrutinize both of us, and I don't know what H will try to paint me as.

As for proof? H has a prescription. It's just not on his mecical record. He gets the prescription from a local drug store, but does not tell his doctor or insurance. I suppose this can be subpoenaed. He could try to get a prescription on record but it doesn't matter - he cannot even be legally prescribed anti anxiety meds and legally fly a plane.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 07:26 PM
The point is you don't have any documented proof other than a prescription in his home... You can't prove he's on the drugs.

If you threaten him he can stop taking them and pass the test

OK, does the L realize that antagonizing your WH may have him sue for MORE custody?

YOur L should be able to put you in touch with a SW... YOur psychologist should be able to confirm that you are a good mom... I would call CPS seriously...

What your WH paints you as doen'st matter.. its what he can PROVE to a court with EVIDENCE

what can YOU prove abuot HIM?

is there ANY evidence of abuse other than your say so at this point?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 07:33 PM
Not really.
As is usual, these things occur in private.

The only thing I have is what I have told therapists, friends, and family members.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 08:06 PM
If he is only abusive in private then don't talk to him in private... Always have someone on the line who is willing to confirm his abuse if it happens.

This will help you minimize the abuse.

Are there no friends or family or anyone supporting you there at all?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 08:12 PM
My parents are nearby and are supporting me through this whole process. I have spoken with them regularly whenever abusive situations arise. They have placed the retainer fee in the lawyers hands. I have invited them to attend S's birthday dinner tomorrow night to keep the peace.
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/22/10 08:31 PM
VERY good idea... I am surprised your F has'nt killed your WH yet.. I probably would have.. I admire his restraint...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/23/10 03:59 AM
Believe me my F wants to kill WH. No doubt.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/23/10 04:16 AM
...oh especially after the night H was asking F what drugs the doctor gave him for his pain - "anything good?" he smirked. And then he asked me for access to my parents drug cabinet so he could sneak some out.

And last halloween when we were all trick or treating with S and my father (67 y.o.) asked if we could drive down to the neighborhood because of an ailing foot - and H angrily snapped "nobody's driving anywhere." And like the lame wilted flower I am, I cowered. I've always regretted not standing up for my father that night.

And last thanksgiving, after a day and night of sobbing in arguments, H, S, and I show up at the restaurant to meet my parents. I was sullen, couldn't eat, barely spoke. My parents were concerned. All WH took away from that day was wondering why my parents "were acting different" and "didn't seem to like him" anymore - as if my feelings meant nothing and all he could think of was his own image in their eyes.

Why oh why to I cling to such a beast?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 05:37 PM
So now that I have had major pullback - still can't get myself to go NC - WH is pushing. He's pushing to have "talks" about many issues, some business like (the house, our son) and some personal - he wants more time with S and "if OW happens to be there so be it". I got sucked into the convos even though I know better. I had a horrible dream about H and OW and I'm really hurting. Help.
Posted By: gutwrenching Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 05:56 PM
H4L -
Breathe. You can do this. You have been through this before, you know that you deserve better. Think of your son, focus on him when you start going against what you know you should.

(())
GW
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 05:59 PM
GW! Thank you!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 06:07 PM
OH and my panic attacks are back. That's what I get for talking with him, esp about OW.
Posted By: gutwrenching Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 06:23 PM
UGH.
Ok - not worth the panic attacks. Convince yourself of this. Keep busy, start thinking about all the things you will NOT miss about dealing with him...
Breathe through the panic attacks, change your thought processes, value your self worth, and get tough. You've done it before, do it again!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 06:35 PM
Thanks GW will do. I needed that reminder. (())
Posted By: Dudess Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 08:46 PM
Hi Hope,

Here's a link to some helpful information about divorcing a "High Conflict Personality"

Hang in there!

http://www.highconflictinstitute.com/ind...&Itemid=101
Posted By: Allen A Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/28/10 11:40 PM
Thanks everyone! smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: Moved here from Piecing... - 09/29/10 02:08 AM
Dudess, Allen, GW - thanks - I really need the support this week. I'm finding it scary to implement all of Allens/Tupy's advice.
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