Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: SunnyD REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 01:46 PM
I am very frustrated this morning and I think I need a new plan of action. I thought I’d made progress, but I guess not! I haven’t gotten any responses lately and I truly need some help! I don’t care if it’s by way of 2x4’s telling me I’ve done everything wrong! I need advice before I go crazy!

H and I had a conversation about 2am this morning as a result of neither of us being able to sleep. I guess I allowed myself to be baited after he asked what I was thinking about and I commented I was frustrated; that it didn’t feel good to have your spouse trying to constantly get away from you. Now, keep in mind that I THOUGHT we were supposed to be working on the R. I thought wrong. His comments were that while we are legally married, he does not feel emotionally married to me. That he feels nothing for me. Then he said that he is pretty confident this won’t work out, “but he could be wrong.” I expressed my dissatisfaction of thinking we were working on M only to find him retreating worse into his own world. Told him he was waiting on feelings but actions have to be taken to bring back those feelings. He scoffed.

I did a good job of staying calm; didn’t cry. I commented that he had said he would go to counseling and to the retreat weekend, but he only went to counseling once. He said he did not feel it would do any good. Said he would go on the weekend (similar to Retrovaille ?) if it would make me feel better. ???

I told H that I felt he was not being honest. Said I truly feel he is involved somehow with another woman – emotionally. That texting/emailing/calling someone else was not right. Of course he denied there being anyone but did say he’d talked with several friends – both male and female about our situation.

It truly seems that H’s intentions are to stay with me in this roommate type relationship until he is ready to make his move and leave. I think he likes staying because he still gets to be the good guy and doesn’t want to hurt the kids. I think he figures he can hang in with things as is until the youngest is out of school in 4 years. He even said he wanted me to finish my education and for me to “be ok physically and mentally”

He made the comment that he doesn’t know why I want to stay with him. I felt like telling him I probably shouldn’t want to! I just said I made a commitment before God 20 years ago…and that I felt our family was worth fighting for. He said maybe I was just afraid of not finding someone else. I told him I was not afraid of that at all and I wasn’t afraid of being alone either! He said that was good. :-/

We discussed sex and I stated I was no longer up for “just sex”. That it was cold and lonely and it might feel good short term but if there is no true commitment to this R (and I thought there was, previously) I could no longer engage in that.

So, I think I covered the conversation pretty well. It ended and I went back to bed and he followed shortly. So guess what? He then proceeded to put his arm around me and kiss me… talk about mixed messages!

I just don’t know what to do at this point. I am so close to just telling him if he really wants out, to just go. I don’t think I can live in a marriage like this for several years while he bides his time. It’s so hard to live with him and him be so detached. I don’t care if it’s because of someone else or what the reason…I can’t live this way! I deserve love and true commitment.

I feel totally mixed up because he has messed up my game with leading me to believe we were working things out. What do I do now? Let go? DB? Try to catch him in the A (assuming there is one) and expose??? The sad part is, I think if there is not OW then he truly does not love me and there is no hope – that it’s not just someone else drawing his attention away. Is that crazy to think that?

Anyway, here is my latest thread for more detailed info on the sitch. (There’s a recap.)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2039862#Post2039862

I could also list my first thread if need be. Well, first 2: I started on Newcomers but wasn’t getting much feedback then switched to Infidelity.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 02:16 PM
OK

1. Discussing his marital problems with female friends in private is how affairs start.
2. If he is willing to discuss his marital problems he should be doing it with someone who is willing to help.
3. Going to family therapy ONE TIME is NOT going to accomplish anything... Why didn't you call him on that?

He's already admitted an EA without saying it.

a. He's talking in private
b. He's talking about his marriage problems
c. He's talking with a female

That's it in a nutshell... the "i love you's" and the "you are so sexy" isn't far behind that setup if it has'nt already come out of him already

He's HIDING the phone. That's a HUGE RED LIGHT

I would also call him on the privacy


If you intend on living in this home we need to stop hiding things from one another.


Also call him on talking about the marriage to his friends


It is embarassing to ME for you to discuss OUR marriage problems with YOUR FRIENDs.. and in PRIVATE so I don't even know what you are saying.

If you are giong to discuss the problem it should b with a licensed professional who hears MY thoguhts and feelings to so they can better HELP the situation.

What YOU are doing is more DAMAGE.

If you want to talk then talk to the FT. The reason it didn't help YOU is because YOU only went once and are giong to yoru FRIENDS INSTEAD.

Your friends aren't trained to HELP you, they are just giong to sympathize.

Your friends don't talk to ME for a COMPLETE picture.

You aren't doing the family therapy PROPERLY so you are just wasting money. Go and do it PROPERLY please.


Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 05:35 PM
So, should I send him an email with these things listed today? Should I wait and discuss it in person tonight? Or...should I wait and see if he brings anything up first?

I would rather do it by email because I can get some feedback first and won't get emotional doing so. Right now I'm pretty emotional. I've been pretty strong but it is hitting me very hard today.
Posted By: LSG Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 05:51 PM
SunnyD,

I think maybe you should wait a day if you are emotional about it. It could provide you sometime to think through your options a little clearer. Do not rush yourself and cause yourself additional emotional stress.

You will be okay. Have the courage to do what you need to do. I have to tell myself this all the time. It does help.

I am "rooting" for you everyday.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:00 PM
Thank you, LSG. Am rooting for you too!!!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:08 PM
Didn't you pick up the Glass Text yet?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:15 PM
Is that the Not Just Friends? Sorry, my mind is a little cloudy at the moment. If so, it wasn't in stock but I ordered it. It's not in yet.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:18 PM
Ah... OK, if you read that you won't want him talking to females about his marital problems in secret anymore... Glass makes a very strong case against it in the text
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:42 PM
Well, I KNOW I don't want him to but that doesn't stop him from doing it, now does it? lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:56 PM
He needs to read Not Just Friends... he's already wayward and haveing intimate private chats with women...

Do ou KNOW these women?

I would be confronting them and telling them they have no business offering YOUR HUSBAND private consults about YOUR marital problems... I would tell them he HAS a family therapist and ANYONE ELSE offering an ear or advice right now is CONTAMINATING THAT and NOT HELPING the MARRIAGE
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 06:57 PM
Tell them


In the future when a man tries to talk to you in private about his marriage problems you SEND him to a GOOD FAMILY THERAPIST, you dont' ENCOURAGE him to discuss his marital problems with YOU in SECRET... You have no training, no license, and no DAMN business talking to him in this context AT ALL
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:09 PM
I don't know them. They are either work friends or his old high school friends that he reconnected with on Facebook. He didn't specify who.

But - I need to decide some practical steps. If he will not be open with his phone, email, etc... I guess I need to tell him he needs to get out.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:21 PM
You will need to confront him for sure... ESPECIALLY about contacting high school friends from facebook.. that is a HUGE EA NO NO...

Facebook is THE NUMBER ONE SOFTWARE PRODUCT in use today to engage in infidelity.. particularly by looking up "old flames" etc

He needs to be warned about the dangers he's getting into here and he needs to respect the boundaries you setup

I would script it out ahead of time...

If you bring up FT again and he says "It wont' work" just say


There is no "IT" in famly therapy. There is just a YOU. Either you are willing to DO the WORK to REPAIR the marriage or you are going to hang out on facebook with old girlfriends and start an affair.. A or B... If its going to be B then you need to pack your things. I will NOT go through this again NOR will I allow you to start an affair in the home of OUR CHILDREN.


You have five minutes to decide... CLock's ticking
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:44 PM
That sounds good!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:50 PM
Its a rough draft but it is a start at least

I would try to get somethign in there about his playing fast and loose with the marriage being a danger to the stability of the home to all three of your kids as well.

Just tell him if he's going to make excuses to avoid donig the work on the marriage and put his children at risk instead then he can leave now. Start packing his things for him.. Don't even wait.. Go grab some boxes and start packing.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:56 PM
OK. I'm going to work on a script!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 07:57 PM
http://www.yourtango.com/201057729/technology-assisted-infidelity-facebook-widow

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/story/Facebook-Infidelity/Ob5SYtWf70asSM-gyt_T3A.cspx
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 08:05 PM
Thanks! Do you think it's worth me passing these on to him or will that just go right out the window?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 08:15 PM
I would print them up and leave them in your work area... He will just laugh at you if you show them to him.

There are dozens on the www like that critcizing facebook.

You don't even need to leave this forum :

ElvenCat
QuickSilver
EeyoreNoMore

Read any of their threads and you will see how high risk that software is...

If your H's solution is to prowl facebook in SECRET while you clean his home and raise his children I would tell him that's not your idea of a healthy marriage and he has to recongnize your discomfort with him using facebook OR get OUT.

I didn't know he was using facebook to look up old friends... THAT is more than enough of a warning in my opiinion.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 08:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I would print them up and leave them in your work area... He will just laugh at you if you show them to him.

There are dozens on the www like that critcizing facebook.

You don't even need to leave this forum :

ElvenCat
QuickSilver
EeyoreNoMore

Read any of their threads and you will see how high risk that software is...

If your H's solution is to prowl facebook in SECRET while you clean his home and raise his children I would tell him that's not your idea of a healthy marriage and he has to recongnize your discomfort with him using facebook OR get OUT.

I didn't know he was using facebook to look up old friends... THAT is more than enough of a warning in my opiinion.



Yeah - I didn't think much about it because I had his password before and didn't find anything to speak of. BUT... we had a disagreement about it and he changed his password.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 08:25 PM
Focus on boundaries and come up with some consequences.

Exposure to the family is a must here. He likes thinking he's the family hero. When his 18 year old daughter hears from you that he's prowling facebook in secret looking for old girlfriends I don't think his daughter will be impressed with him.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 08:31 PM
No, I'm sure not! And exposing to extended family won't do much good: he doesn't even speak with his father. His mother doesn't even send birthday or Christmas cards - not even to the kids! His sister is much younger and lives far away. (They all do.) All of my family is far away as well.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 10:27 PM
The thing is Sunny there's another state in addition to the usual ones people talk about :

a. Wayward
b. ?
c. Emotional Affair
d. Physical Affair

--------------------------------

Your husband is likley in that state.. I would put QuickSilver's wife in there too

a. Wayward
b. Prowling
c. Emotional Affair
d. Physical Affair

I am just coining this now.. I don't know what else to call it. Cruising? On the make? I dunno...

If your H is on facebook looking up high school "buddies" he's likley prowling...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/19/10 11:25 PM
Cruising or Prowling sounds about right. I think they feel so crappy about themselves they're looking anywhere to get an ego boost. Maybe it's MLC maybe it's something else. Seeing Red has mentioned that Larry goes into why people act this way in this state - something about being dysfunctional.

Well, he texted me not to wait on him for dinner because he's going to be late. Uhhh... wasn't waiting on him anyway, esp. after last night. He still thinks I'm in the same mindset. I'm not. I'm totally not. Honestly - if it weren't for the kids I would just tell him to get out now. I've cried all day and I think I'm finally all cried out! Well, for now at least.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 02:43 AM
I am not up for a confrontation tonight. Too much going on with the boys and a ton of homework to get done tonight before big test in the morning. It isn't that I am avoiding it. I know it is inevitable. I just want to do it from a position of strength, when I'm feeling more "bad donkey" as my D says. :-) I am, right now, trying to be the calm before the storm. I haven't said much to H. Haven't been neither pleasant nor unpleasant. I am going to get my script together after my class in the morning when I can pull it together. I'm also trying to decide if I need to seek legal consultation before I drop the speech or letter. At the very least I want to make sure I am covered.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 06:56 PM
So, before I go into the confrontation I want to make an attempt at getting ahold of H's phone so I can try and have some proof of EA. I feel if I could prove that he is up to something that it will have break his fantasyland. I know he will just say the usual, "this has nothing to do with us..." if so. Doesn't matter. I need to find some way to gain power. I tried in the early hours this morning to get ahold of it, but I swear it seemed that H was sleeping very lightly! Should I go forward knowing I may get caught at snooping??? Hmmm...

I want to plan my next move(s) carefully as I believe they will be crucial. Just a gut feeling I have.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 07:15 PM
Talk to a lawyer first since you are financially dependent.

Second, script the confrontation. I don't reccomend snooping. I would just tell him outright that hiding things right now is not something you are comfortable wtih and he can offer you the transparency the FAMLIY needs to feel stable and safe again OR he can leave.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 07:15 PM
Don't give him more than five minutes to decide. Watch him and his phone. If he doesn't hand the phone to you inside of that five minutes he's in an EA for sure.
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Don't give him more than five minutes to decide. Watch him and his phone. If he doesn't hand the phone to you inside of that five minutes he's in an EA for sure.


Yep! Just push the "burden of proof" onto HIM, Sunny, based on his past history and how he's acting.

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 07:36 PM
OK! Sounds reasonable. Part of me just wants the satisfaction of saying, "Yeah, right...I have the proof you sorry b#s*rd!" but I guess it's not necessary.

I will seek legal counsel before confronting him - hopefully this week.

In the meantime I'm going to up my game up in the 180s dept. and GAL.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 10:48 PM
Allen, H did mention that he is still willing to go on the weekend retreat my counseling center recommends. The one that is similar to Retrovaille (sp?) I think. Well, it's for marriages in crisis - even for people who have already filed. Of course, he said he would go "if it would make me feel better."

I am trying to decide whether or not we should go given his current state of mind. Should I backburner it? If we wait, it will be awhile before it's close to us again. The next one near us is right around the corner - July 30th, so I need to make a decision about it. www.savemymarriage.com
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 11:29 PM
Sounds like a good plan Sunny...

You don't need proof. You arne't a district attourney and this isn't a criminal trial.

He's married and he's keeping secrets. That's enough of a problem ALONE even if the phone turns up CLEAN.

The point is that he's keeping secrets rather than participating in the marriage... THAT is your issue, NOT what is on the phone.

If you argue from THAT position, he's already guilty and you already have all the proof you need. You KNOW he's hiding his phone.. THAT is destructive to a marriage...

Lets suppose the phone is empty... He's caused his spouse to have anxious panic attacks for weeks for NO REASON other than the sick pleasure of knowing he's making his partner uncomfortable and slowly unravel into tears.

THAT is the problem... NOT what he's DOING on the phone.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/20/10 11:33 PM
And you ESPECIALLY don't hide your cell phone from your partner when they have a history of being the victim of infidelity! That's just ABUSIVE beyond belief.

You see Sunny, you don't need to find an EA on the phone, your H is already doing a lot of damage... you HAVE the proof you need in his current behaviour.

Even if the phone is CLEAN this secretkeeping is NOT something I can imagine you can accept in a marriage...

Every time he takes that phone into the bathroom with him he condemns himself as a bad husband... PERIOD

I am on a ROLL!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 03:53 AM
You ARE on a roll!!! You make some VERY good points and I'm glad I read this before going to bed. It just did not even occur to me that this hiding stuff is abusive and cause enough without proof to hold his feet to the fire! You are so right!

AND...I thought of another word for this particular state: TROLLING!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 04:09 AM
Ah.. Trolling.. nice...

TS instead of WS.. Nice lol

Ya, in your situation in particular if I were the sposue I would offer up transparency immediately to AVOID you getting paranoid from past hurts.

THIS GUY is just ANTAGONIZING your scars... rather petty if you ask me...

I just pictured in my mind him snarling and handing you his phone and telling you smugly "there's nothing there... Just me talking with some guy friends"

And you taking the phone and tossing it into the blender and turning it on full blast...

"Do you think I CARE what's ON there? I care that you are so RUDE as to HIDE things from a woman who was HURTFULLY CHEATED ON... how RUDE of you do DO that to someone.. I don't give a damn what's ON the phone, I give a damn that YOU HIDE IT FROM ME."

Something like that...

Secret keeping does induce panic, anxiety, etc. If you factor in other behaviours like the matress clinging, the threats of leaving, etc... its all very abusive and stress inducing.

I haven't even GOT into infidelity yet. Him benig wayward is enough on its own... If he dones't LIKE his marriage he needs to KNOCK OFF the VIDEO GAMES and DO SOMETHING to FIX IT

Hide my phone? Yah.. That should make things tons better... I'll do that...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 04:19 AM
I know, it's just ridiculous! Grow up and man up!

I can't tell you how much this perspective helps me: gives me a whole new mindset even! What's on the cellphone isn't so important now because his behavior is wrong whether there's anything on it or not. Seems easy enough, but a big lightbulb went off for me.

Darn Trolls!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 07:58 PM
On the marriage retreat possibility: Spoke with counselor at the New Beginnings place and she feels it would be very good for H and I. It takes the "tough love" approach and will not be me pursuing him to stay in our relationship. She said if I can get him to come, doesn't matter his mindset, to do so. They work from the respect/boundaries/accountability framework.

This is going to be my last effort, I'd guess you'd say, to see if H is truly willing to work on our marriage or if he is just biding his time to get out. I've drafted this email, let me know what you think! If I get a yes from him, everything will be put on hold. If no, it's go time in terms of confronting him, dropping the rope, etc...

I have been thinking about our conversation the other night and you said you were willing to go to the weekend marriage retreat. It is coming up next weekend, at least the closest one to us.(July 30th weekend)

I want you to check it out: www.savemymarriage.com

If you are still willing to go, we need to register. There is a payment plan where we pay about $500 now and then make monthly payments of $100 each. Hotel is extra.

It seemed that you only wanted to go to appease me. I hope that is not the case and that you would truly like to see if we have a chance. Believe me, I am not ready to stay in a loveless marriage to someone who does not want me. I also do not want to be in a marriage where I am suspicious of behavior and don't feel safe, where secrets are kept and relationships pursued on the outside. Perhaps this weekend would be good for both of us to determine where we stand.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Posted By: silverado Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 08:11 PM
Sunny,

I think you need to stick to the subject in the email and re-work the last paragraph. It sounds more like your "confrontation" speech.

silverado
Posted By: Soxfan2008 Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 08:12 PM
Sunny- I posted a response to your letter on your newcomers thread

smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 08:15 PM
Silverado, that's the same point Sox made...so...Great Minds Think Alike! I will do just that. Leave out the last paragraph, basically.

Just saw it and agree, Sox.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/21/10 09:11 PM
Hmmm....sent the email....no response yet. I know it's only been about 45 min. but H usually responds right away on his Blackberry or laptop. I'm not panicking, I just realized I didn't think of a response if he says No or what to do if he doesn't respond at all...

It will answer my last question before continuing in Confront mode that's for sure. It's definite proof that he does not plan on working on the marriage even though he has said so in the past. I guess my response is.... nothing???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 01:13 AM
Sunny, I honestly think your H is doing the same thing every wayward spouse does : wing it.

he has no plan, he bases his choices on the moment and his mood at the time. He can turn on a dime and he's very worked up and confused almost every minute of the day.

Don't take him ignoring your email as a no or think he has some grand plan to exit... He's just wayward and flying from the seat of his pants as they all do.

To be honest I wouldn't even have asked him. I would have booked it and told him where to be and when and that's it.

No asking, no confrontation, no emotion. Just be HERE at THIS TIME or a lot of money will be wasted.

Have a great day
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 01:39 AM
I did end up getting an email asking questions about costs, etc… I sent him all the information. Nothing back. He just called and I asked if he received the info. He said yes and basically said, “if that’s what we want to do I guess we can do it.” So… I’m registering! If he backslides on it, I'll say too bad - it's paid for, we're going or you can leave. (Not those exact words but that's my new line of thinking.

I talked to a counselor there and she said that they are very used to dealing with spouses in his mindset. He doesn’t have to want to be there, can even be mad about being there, as long as he’s there!

She is glad that I have read all the stuff I’ve read. She said everything they do is in line with tough love, etc… I told her I was very concerned it would seem like “pursuing” to make him come. She said it will not be that at all – even if he thinks that before arriving, he will understand it’s not when there.

The counselor advised that I not talk to H about the relationship at all before coming next weekend. So, my plan is to continue upping 180’s and GAL. Last night I went out for awhile. Told H I was going to study with some new friends from class. I really went and studied by myself, but he didn’t need to know that. Have made some changes in my clothing style, etc… that I think he will notice when he gets home. I actually stayed gone from 6:00-8:15 but he wasn’t home in time to notice that, darn it.

This is honestly a last ditch effort (the New Beginnings weekend) for me. I believe I have been totally enlightened now – and you helped that, Allen – and no longer desire to be with H if real changes don’t occur in the relationship on HIS part!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 04:10 AM
YOu aren't asking for the moon... I think even an end to his secrecy would reduce your stress and make you a lot happier right now...

Once you go you may want to say something nice casually to him about going, that you respect him or something like that... That a lot of spouses don't have courage or maturity to go...

But WAIT til he's THERE to say it lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:38 AM
You may have someone in your same situation Sunny :

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2042408#Post2042408
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 01:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
YOu aren't asking for the moon... I think even an end to his secrecy would reduce your stress and make you a lot happier right now...

Once you go you may want to say something nice casually to him about going, that you respect him or something like that... That a lot of spouses don't have courage or maturity to go...

But WAIT til he's THERE to say it lol


You are definitely right. If his behavior wasn't so secretive, things wouldn't be nearly so hard. It just tells me there is something to be secretive about! Good idea... I will say something positive to him about going when we get there - or on the way. BTW, I couldn't have told him just to show up because each spouse has to complete confidential assignments before attending.

I'm really interested to see how this all goes! They boast a 3/4 marriages saved that attend. I did google Retrouvaille as well but they didn't have a weekend near us until October and I didn't want to wait that long. I took it as a sign that New Beginnings has one next weekend near us!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 01:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A


Yes...very similar in a lot of ways!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 01:40 PM
Hmmm.... and QS's post was very insightful! You and I were discussing the prowling/trolling, but I never looked at it completely in this light! It struck home that H doesn't look at anything he's doing as wrong because perhaps there is no specific OP right now. It's the "anyone but Sunny" thing. So, technically, maybe he's not cheating. However, he's getting a rush from attention from OW and wanting to date...and that fantasy person perhaps.

WOW: this is almost harder to combat than just a specific OW. Mainly because if there is technically no A, there's no guilt either. It's just a fantasy mindset where it's blaming me and the marriage for his unhappiness.

I see the only way of dealing with this as showing him the door. There's nothing to expose. Of course, there's always hope that this weekend retreat we are going on will help... But dang, what an epiphany to start the day.
Sunny,

I came to this realization that AFTER I re-exposed the Facebook guy.

The day BEFORE I did it, she was searching "ways to a guys heart", "sex to a guys heart", "how to get a guy online", and "is sex the way to win a guy".

She had been pursuing him a MONTH AFTER the FIRST exposure. And it FINALLY paid off when they started contact AGAIN. Finally he said "I want you in EVERY WAY". That was all she needed to start the online searches. She REALLY thought she was going to run into his arms, and be happy ever after.

AND THIS TIME, she left NO STONE unturned in her attempt to win him into bed and visit him. She let him say ANYTHING to her, and I could hear her LAUGHING and "HMMMMMMMM-ing" at his messages from her room that VERY NIGHT as I watched the network and what was going on as it unfolded.

What she said back to him was HORRIFYING. Then I exposed, and she left for a week. She didn't get on Facebook for like 4 days, and almost stopped texting ALTOGETHER. You can see it in her now. She is DEVASTATED that she can't have him anymore. It's PATHETIC.

Then she started chatting with this young guy at work, and asking him to be her roommate. Just LAST NIGHT she online searched his family business, and spent 10 minutes looking at his photos and requested that she be able to answer questions about him on Facebook.

She is in need of validation, attention, and pursuing BADLY. She pursues because she LOVES the attention that the OM give back, and it makes it worthwhile for her. She has something to "win", whereas she feels in her marriage she has "lost everything and who she was".

Your H may be as desperate as my wife to "get away" BECAUSE they are running from what they are FEELING AND DOING to THEMSELVES. The harder they run from you and pursue other people, the worse they feel. They stoop to NEW LOWS, things they and other people NEVER THOUGHT they would do. So they run harder and look harder. And it cycles downward until they are so far deep in that the ONLY way out they see is to divorce and QUICKLY attach onto "that someone else".

It is absolutely horrifying to watch. Believe me.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:02 PM
Oh - I already know how horrifying it is, believe me - esp. with 3 kids to worry about as well as myself!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:12 PM
I've had a rough couple of hours. H tried to back out of the weekend deal. At first he tried saying, "It wasn't worth the money...that taking a cruise together that is fun would be better money spent." I replied I was sorry, it was a done deal, already registered and paid. Maybe afterwards we could take a cruise.

Reply to that? This weekend will not turn out like "I want it to" that he doesn't want to go, and that he will not want to take a cruise with me after this is done and it goes badly. People telling him how to act is going to further push him away and not reconnect. Oh, and that, he can't give me what I need... that I deserve better.

So then I ask does that mean he is unwilling? And that yes, I do deserve better. (Short reply - did not expound on it.)

His reply, simply, "I will go."

So, there you have it: he is going but reluctantly. The people are New Beginnings said it's fine - he doesn't have to be happy about going, just has to show up. (Told him that also and he said that's just a sales pitch.)

Anyway... I was so upset over this exchange that I started bawling in front of my 16 year old. Told him I was going to possibly ask his dad to leave, and why: I explained to him about H trolling FB and sending sexual text msgs to an old gf, of which I had proof. I explained that H refused to work on the M and I could not live like this any longer when his dad refused to get help. This was before the last msg from H saying he would go. S cried and we hugged each other. I told him his Dad loves him and I was sorry this was happening. I wanted him to understand though - if I had to ask H to leave, why. He said he is pissed.

Now I feel bad for having told S all of this. I just couldn't help it because at the time, I fully expected to have to ask H to leave tonight. 18 year old D is out of town until Sunday. I said nothing to 14S because once we got home, H had sent the reply that he would attend the weekend.

Apologized to 16S for having unloaded this on him prematurely. If he wants to go to counseling, I will take him. I then asked that he not say anything about the FB issue since H is now willing to go on the weekend. Geez...why couldn't I have kept
my mouth shut? Of course, H may still back out...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:31 PM
Don't feel bad. He's old enough to handle and be included in exposure.

YOu DO need to give him some direction on how you would like him to handle himself now that he knows...

Just have your son give his father a hug and tell him he's proud of him for going.

He could just as easily see the facebook stuff himself... kids have the time and energy to read that stuff all day.

I am shocked he would put stuff on facebook right in the open where his kids might see it.

Your son can HELP motivate his father. I think he should start motivating him as above and do what he can to add support to his father rebuilding the marriage.

He's old enough to be involved Sunny

phil McGraw did an affair intervention on national tv and had a 14 year old daughter speaking up and involved... and I agree with him that 14 is old enough to warrant their input at that point. It's unfortunate, but excluding them and making decisions without them is unfortunate too.

They will be glad one day they were respected as an adult and give a chance to help save the marraige.

Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:35 PM
And expect your H to go back and forth until the day off and even ON the day of...

You have to STOP listening to hwo he feels ... its 100% garbage and mood swings...

Think of him being on PMS... steer clear
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:43 PM
You're right. He IS old enough and I actually feel more calmly now that I've told him. It's like, one of my worst fears was having to tell the kids. Well, the 2 boys are the ones I worried about the most and 1 already understands. I'm more concerned about 14S. Do I now tell him or wait until after the weekend? He's not your typical 14yr old boy: he is borderline Aspergers, which is a form of Autism, and has had issues with depression. I'm so afraid of this all affecting him most of all.

18 yr old D I will tell when she gets back home. Don't want to tell her while she is out of town.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:46 PM
Have you had a chat with your son about how you want HIM to handle HIMSLEF yet? If you have'nt he's in a lot of stress on what you want him to do right now.

Also, you may want to offer him some guidance about further exposure.. he may tell his sister before you even do... siblings WILL do that...

Be a mom and give him a good long talk in a restaurant or soemthing.

This is the POINT of exposure :

a. It's theraputic for you
b. It's respectful to your exposure group - they deserve to know
c. It brings you closer to your kids
d. It introduces hope for reconcilliation

It's a good thing, don't feel bad you spoke up... Don't feel bad anymore than a child speaks up to his family about being bullied at school

I assume you saw the Infidelty Intervention videos on youtube?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:48 PM
As for FB stuff, it is all hidden. He made his "wall" private from the kids - and from me for awhile, until I demanded that it not be. We got into it over that - and then he made it un-private to me but I believe the kids are still blocked. Now, there's been nothing added to FB in awhile. So, he has nothing on there public to find. I believe it went from finding this people on FB to then getting #'s and email addresses. So, anything inappropriate that has occurred has been over email/text msg/cellphone, not FB itself.

So - you think 16S should actually tell Dad he knows about the text msg???? Or, is that something saved for after the weekend. The weekend counselor told me not to discuss R with H at all if it could be helped, before arriving. I'm sure H will blow up once he knows I told 16S. That is probably not a good thing. He'll use it as an excuse to back out.

The counselor said, as you did, Allen, that H will waiver all over the place about going - to expect it!

Honestly, I don't expect this next week to be pretty!
Posted By: LSG Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:48 PM
SunnyD,

You do not need to rush to tell 14S if you need time to think it through, take it. I do think that it is better if he knows from you if he could find out from someone else that does not know how be there for him the way you can.

Just do what you feel is right!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:52 PM
Your son needs guidance on how you want himt o handle it. If you want himt o just be quiet about it and show pride when his father tells him he's going away for the trip that's fine.

It's best not to tell your H that yo shared info with his son right now. He's NOT emotionally stable enough to receive the news well.

And your SON may have some input here.. he may WANT you to keep it quiet too... he DOES have a right to say how HE feels about it...

It's a secret that belongs to you and your son now... you two need to communicate about it honeslty and regularly as a famly should...

When exposure happens this interesting "reverse exposure" thing happens...

Suddenly YOU and the FAMILY are in on a SECRET and the WAYWARD spouse is out of the loop... now its Y OUR turn to hide secrets from HIM... see?

And yes, he woudl be furuios.

I honestly don't think if his facebook is innocent he should be HIDING it from his KIDS... do YOU?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Have you had a chat with your son about how you want HIM to handle HIMSLEF yet? If you have'nt he's in a lot of stress on what you want him to do right now.

Also, you may want to offer him some guidance about further exposure.. he may tell his sister before you even do... siblings WILL do that...

Be a mom and give him a good long talk in a restaurant or soemthing.

This is the POINT of exposure :

a. It's theraputic for you
b. It's respectful to your exposure group - they deserve to know
c. It brings you closer to your kids
d. It introduces hope for reconcilliation

It's a good thing, don't feel bad you spoke up... Don't feel bad anymore than a child speaks up to his family about being bullied at school

I assume you saw the Infidelty Intervention videos on youtube?


Send me that link ...I think I did but want to make sure!

Yes, I talked with 16S. He agreed not to tell 14S and 18D and let me tell them. I probably need to give more direction to him on how to behave towards his Dad though. Thoughts???
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: LSG
SunnyD,

You do not need to rush to tell 14S if you need time to think it through, take it. I do think that it is better if he knows from you if he could find out from someone else that does not know how be there for him the way you can.

Just do what you feel is right!


Thanks, LSG: Good point!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:54 PM
Just type "Affair Intervention" into the youtube search box, there's about three or four vids of a woman having an affair and she has FIVE DAUGHTERS... McGraw brought the four oldest into the session... they had interesting things to say...

Love McGraws lecture he gave the wife... classic stuff
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 06:57 PM
Well, how do YOU plan on telling the famly in the OPEN about your trip to this place with your H?

Are you goign to LIE and say its a cruise?

If you both ADMIT its a marriage building weekend then your Son can give his F a hug and tell him he's proud of him for keeping the family togthter... that's motivation enough... As long as they say something constructive to motivate him in a healthy direction.

Give your SON some scripts if he wants them.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Your son needs guidance on how you want himt o handle it. If you want himt o just be quiet about it and show pride when his father tells him he's going away for the trip that's fine.

It's best not to tell your H that yo shared info with his son right now. He's NOT emotionally stable enough to receive the news well.

And your SON may have some input here.. he may WANT you to keep it quiet too... he DOES have a right to say how HE feels about it...

It's a secret that belongs to you and your son now... you two need to communicate about it honeslty and regularly as a famly should...

When exposure happens this interesting "reverse exposure" thing happens...

Suddenly YOU and the FAMILY are in on a SECRET and the WAYWARD spouse is out of the loop... now its Y OUR turn to hide secrets from HIM... see?

And yes, he woudl be furuios.

I honestly don't think if his facebook is innocent he should be HIDING it from his KIDS... do YOU?


Yes, S and I discussed it. He's the one that said 14S shouldn't know right now. He agreed 18D should know when she returns from her college trip.

Interesting thought on the REverse Exposure.

And NO! He shouldn't have to hide his FB from kids. Well, he only hid a certain part he said - because he and his high school buddies were discussing some of their drunken, younger days... (That was his reason - not that he was currently doing anything inappropriate.)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just type "Affair Intervention" into the youtube search box, there's about three or four vids of a woman having an affair and she has FIVE DAUGHTERS... McGraw brought the four oldest into the session... they had interesting things to say...

Love McGraws lecture he gave the wife... classic stuff


OK. WIll look that up. LOVE Dr. Phil!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Well, how do YOU plan on telling the famly in the OPEN about your trip to this place with your H?

Are you goign to LIE and say its a cruise?

If you both ADMIT its a marriage building weekend then your Son can give his F a hug and tell him he's proud of him for keeping the family togthter... that's motivation enough... As long as they say something constructive to motivate him in a healthy direction.

Give your SON some scripts if he wants them.


Was definitely going to tell them it was a marriage weekend. They knew we had a big fight and that H had brought out the D word so that part isn't a surprise to them. I had not told them about any specifics though.

Good idea - about the scripts.

H is going into this with the idea of "fine, it won't work - it's just going to push me away further..." and I hate that he has that attitude. It's like setting up to fail. I forgot the term where you set yourself up for a certain outcome because that's what your beliefs are. That part makes me nervous that we will be the 1 out of 4 that doesn't get saved through the weekend. BUT...I am not letting that fear stop me! If it doesn't go well then I've done all I could and it's time for him to leave.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:22 PM
Self defeating attitude I think is what you are after there.

Next time he says soemthing negative like "It won't work"

try


Giving up on your famly so quickly? Without even going? You must be a very proud father.

Children are damaged goods after a divorce. Even an idiot knows that. And you want to RUN there?

Your kids will be very proud of you ... Dad.


OR


Won't work? Of course it might not work. But skulking around facebook for old girlfriends isn't going to help your kids have a stronger famly now is it?

YES.. I KNOW


Walk away


Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:26 PM
That's good.....very good!!!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:30 PM
Although, I think he just likes where he's at now: Not leaving yet not addressing the marriage either. It's not that he's running towards divorce, he just thinks he can keep cake eating by staying here, walking the tightrope of not having an A yet not working on M either... but having chats/texts/whatever else.. but me being here and him here for the kids too. Quite a nice setup that of course he'd like to keep!

It's like, "Sure...force me on this retreat and it's just going to push me out the door because I'm mad about having to go!" What he's implying is, "I'm not going to reconnect with you after this weekend and am going to feel worse about you, so I'm going to be forced to leave." Similar to, "I was GOING to work things out, but now this!"
Originally Posted By: Allen A



Won't work? Of course it might not work. But skulking around facebook for old girlfriends isn't going to help your kids have a stronger famly now is it?

YES.. I KNOW


Walk away




Perfect!!!

whistle whistle whistle

Puppy
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:40 PM
Sunny I made a post earlier today on anotehr thread here... You may have already seen it, but in case you hadn't I am pasting it here .. a lot of it follows on what you just said about your H liking his little setup


I use this model often, so I will offer it up again here.

Your Husband has three basic choices of lifestyle here :

a. Continue to see you, and his affair partner (cake-eat)
b. End his marriage, minimize contact with you, and pursue affair partner 100%
c. End his affair and work with a FT to reconcile with you 100%

Right NOW, you have been making option A AVAILABLE to him. He can see you as often as he wants, whenever he wants, and you are all smiles when he does. You even make him dinner or whatever.

When you cut OFF option A he has to make a choice between two ugly options to him. He does NOT want to end all contact with you, or he would have done that already. He does NOT want to end all contact with his OW either.

YOU take actions to STOP A from being available as an option. Until you cut off option A he will KEEP TAKING IT and NEVER recommit and YOU will continue to feel increasingly miserable.

Cut him off at the knees by removing option A.

You cannot force him to choose option C, but you CAN STOP him from choosing option A by NOT being available to him anymore.

You have been making yourself available 100% so he's been cake eating... it won't help you.

Cut him off at the knees. He may choose b, he may choose c, but at least he will have made a choice and you can stop feeling miserable.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 07:54 PM
Yes, I've read it, but thanks for the reminder! I am definitely taking steps for A to stop being the option. I've been allowing Option A for awhile now because I thought he had been willing to go to counseling, work on M, not taking active steps toward OW, etc... However, once I was enlightened that was not the case earlier this week, I became determined to cut out Option A! Just figuring out the best way to do that has been the tricky part. I was ready to confront and now he is willing to go do this.

SO: If he waivers again (which he might) then I need a script to basically say, "You don't go - You pack up your things - or better yet, I'll do it for you...and find some place else to stay until you decide you want to work on M." (Or leave out the last bit even.)

I'm prepared!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 08:29 PM
OH...and don't get me started on the suggestion that we go on a cruise. Do you honestly think he would have jumped to planning a cruise if I would've backed off the marriage weekend plan???? Helll no. I don't think so. It sounded awfully tempting, I will admit. Part of me wonders...hmmm... maybe.... but I have a hard time believing he would've gone or it would've worked to restore feelings, as he said it might.

I think he was just baiting me so I'd back off.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 09:41 PM
OMG...Now I just got an email from him. He called, trying to cancel, and they said no. So, he's saying we should blow it off because "she said it's not about connecting but about managing a marriage better" and that's not what we need. We would've been better doing something else." Then he goes on to say, "I guess we have homework to do."

I'm not responding for now. Should I respond with the Facebook skulking comment or just ignore????
Just be grateful he SOMEWHAT wants to work on the marriage, and isn't sending friends texts that THEY ARE ON "THE MARKET" AGAIN, like my wife is.

Start from that point of perspective (beginner's mind), and alot more should become clear.

Not trying to be harsh AT ALL Sunny, but you have ALOT more to work with than me. I am SOOOOOO pulling for you HARD buddy.

Try not to over-analyze (one of my big faults), and keep your composure.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:41 PM
Sunny just say "I paid, we are going."

and you can add "I already told the kids..."

Note : I didn't say WHAT was told to them... so this is going to put him on the defensive.. He's going to be thinking


OK... What in the HELL does she KNOW...?

What do the kids know?

uh oh... $hit...


Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:43 PM
Well, the only reason in my case would be because there is some parental guilt. If nothing else, being seen as a good dad is important to H. That's enough to maybe keep him from going over the edge.

And...don't give him too much credit: got another email about how he called to see if he can cancel! Then he was talking about not going again... SO.... we shall see where this ends up.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Sunny just say "I paid, we are going."


That's what I basically said. I emailed him back and said, "Yes, there's homework" and that's it.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:45 PM
Don't get into it... Just tell him "we are going" and ignore him.

Say it once, firmly. Tell your kids ASAP so its locked in there. Tell everyone relevant. If you have someone coming by to watch the house while you're gone arrange that too.

Put money on the hotel too... everything... put it ALL IN.

He's giong to be like a kid going to the dentist... Don't argue, just say "you're going"
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:48 PM
Good... good response...

You can also say "This is the class... the homework comes AFTER we LEARN what the homework IS..."

OR

"You have to SHOW UP in CLASS to GET the ASSIGNED HOME WORK silly..."

OR

"This is a class just like our kids take every day. We are going to set an example here... Cutting class because you don't want to go? NO. We are going for our children's sake and our own."
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Sunny just say "I paid, we are going."

and you can add "I already told the kids..."

Note : I didn't say WHAT was told to them... so this is going to put him on the defensive.. He's going to be thinking


OK... What in the HELL does she KNOW...?

What do the kids know?

uh oh... $hit...




I didn't see this in time to add the "told the kids" part but if he replies back I'll work it in there.

Speaking of kids...my 16 year old told me he is very mad and upset with H. Said he wants to tell him off. He even sent me a 2nd text saying, "If he gets physical or won't leave and you want him to... let me know. I'm bigger and stronger and I got this!" I have to say, I teared up when I read that. My 16 year old son should not have to think this way about his father. Son is 6'2 1/2 and 265 lbs. H is not nearly as big. lol

I explained to S that H has never gotten physical and there may come a time to speak his mind, but now is not it. If he refuses to go to the weekend afterall, and won't make other changes, THEN will be the time. To pray for the man - the real H - that we all know and love.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/22/10 11:54 PM
Exposure is a wonderful thing isnt' it? Just motivates you out the wazoo... smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 12:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Exposure is a wonderful thing isnt' it? Just motivates you out the wazoo... smile


YES! I can't believe how strengthening it is. I never even thought that I should tell the kids about what H has been doing. That was the very thing I feared: having to tell them. Now, however, I find that after telling S16 that I've faced the worse and not only is he not mad at me for considering booting H out the door, he wants to help me do it!

liberating. And to see S's disgust just tells me how strong I can be - that I NEED to stand up to that disgusting behavior.

I've known all along about self-respect, etc... but I never counted on how freeing it would be to tell the kids the truth of the matter and exposing H's behavior. Wow. MOTIVATING is not even strong enough... it's beyond that.

Son said, "WE will be fine." If HE can say that, I da*n sure can!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 03:15 AM
Yep.. I hope your daughter will be equally supportive.

Did you find out if your H locked his kids out of his facebook? That would probably really confirm your position with them if he did... If you tell them he's trolling and THEY can't see his facebook? BOOM.. He'll sink like a stone.

What I don't get Sunny is why so many damn Family Therapists tell their "patients" to keep their traps shut?

Every time I hear an exposure I hear how great it feels to finally speak the truth and step OUT of the drama... to be OUTSIDE in the SUN after a long time hiding away feeling worthless and miserable...

Why on earth would someone tell a person hurting that badly to stay quiet?

I am just stumped
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 03:49 AM
You are exactly right, Allen! I tell ya - it's SO isolating staying quiet and you get support when you are able to talk about it rationally and maturally. (As opposed to just spouting off to anyone who will listen without thinking first.) That's where so much despair comes in. When you are able to get OUTSIDE, you feel better and have other people's strength to help you instead of just relying on your own.

I do believe D will be equally supportive. She and I are much closer than she and H. Of course, it's always different. I really thought S16 would be more on "Dad's side" but exposing woke up a definite protective instinct in him. Maybe with D it will go differently than I expect because we all know Daughters and Daddies!!! But, my point isn't to get the kids to take sides. My point is to get them to side for the marriage - for our family.

H came home and acted like "business as usual" and did not bring up weekend again. S16 acted fine with H. Actually, a little too fine I thought. LOL. I was like, "hey...where's the I'm so pissed at Dad S16?!" Of course, I don't want him to act badly around H. I want their R to stay on course.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 02:12 PM
To clarify on the facebook issue: I don’t believe he still has kids blocked from his “wall”. He did for a time – about 6 weeks ago. He had me blocked and the kids, so I was suspicious. This is when I went into his FB account and did some fishing. He got mad, and that was the weekend of the big fight –apt hunting – me getting that text he meant to send to ex¬-gf that was sexual – kids hearing that he wanted D, all of that. About 6 weeks after the bomb and roughly 6 weeks ago.

After all of this is when the big email exchange occurred where I told him if he wanted out, to go. That if he was going to have inappropriate relationships, he should not live at home. He stayed. At that point I thought we were working on R – he even asked about counseling. As we know, he wasn’t serious about working on R.

Unknowns:
whether or not he is still having inappropriate conversations/relationships.

Whether he is still trolling for people on FB and just taken it underground.

Whether he is or isn’t in EA/PA. Highly doubt PA but EA very possible.

Knowns:
Takes his cell wherever he goes, even into bathroom.

Looking for that “in love” feeling. Doesn’t have it for me.

Pitching a fit about having to go on this weekend retreat

Has talked to both male/female friends about M issues but only the FT – the professional – once.

Does not consider himself as having MLC but is acting like a teenager

Hides in the world of Xbox

Does not want to work on M because he “has no feelings” for me.

Doesn’t go out after work. Is home most of the time he’s supposed to be.

Did start working out, lost weight, working on appearance, etc...

Sunny,

Have you ever thought about just ASKING him to see his cellphone, straight-up? Might get you out of this limbo you are in.

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 02:29 PM
Yes, I have. I have been unsure whether to do that because I've gotten advice both ways - to ask/not to ask - including from FT.

Well - that and the fact that I was sure I needed to snoop and "get proof". I was hell bent on that, mentally!

So, now that I'm not hellbent on the proof, I am visiting that possibility again. Now what stops me is the fact that we're going on this marriage retreat next weekend (30th) and I was told NOT to talk to H about R at all if I could help it (by weekend counselor). Therefore, I am not going to for now, I guess.

Having said that - I no longer care as much either, since I don't care about proof. I know his behavior and that's enough. Whether he is or is not having EA is no longer the point. His behavior is destructive to our M and to our family. Whatever the cause for it, it has to stop or he needs to get out. I'm giving this weekend retreat a chance and hopefully it will get us to the point of doing REAL work on R. If not, he is going to be asked to leave. S16 knows this. I have to now tell D18 when she returns Sunday night. S14 I will consider when I need to tell him, but definitely before I ask H to leave.
Good point (about the behavior). And yeah, I wouldn't do anything to stir the pot before the retreat. Just "smile and wave," as we like to say around here ... for now.

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 02:33 PM
Just to add...I already have proof of the sexual text he sent to ex-gf. If that's not proof enough, I don't know what is!

Of course, he totally justified that by saying "he had already been apt hunting, that we were on the outs" so that makes it OK at that time. yeah, right. The ole Ross/Rachel argument: We were on a break! lol
so when are you officially kicking his sorry a$$ out? smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 03:34 PM
We go on New Beginnings marriage retreat deal next weekend, July 30th. We'll see how that goes. It has a 3/4 success rate to restore couples, so hopefully we are in that 75%. If we are not - and he does not want to work on marriage after that weekend... out he goes (that same week).

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 04:17 PM
UGH...Just got off the phone with my Dad. He is not a man of many words. He asked about the kids as usual and about H. Before we hung up he said, "Tell the kids I love them and H too. So proud of you all."

Do you know how hard that was to hear? If he only knew... He loves H like a son. It hit me that it is going to be harder for me to tell my Dad than anyone about all of this should next weekend not bode well and I have to tell H to leave. Even harder than the kids? Yes, believe it or not - because Dad is up there and not been in the greatest health and Mom is even worse, esp. emotionally right now. We have had 3 very difficult deaths in our family in the last year! She is beyond depressed over that and some other family situations. I'm thankful we don't live close so they don't have to know what's up with me/H right away.

Now, you might think I should tell them - that it would be good. Let me tell you, it does not work that way in this case. When (hopefully "if") I have to tell my parents, it will make things so much worse for me. My mom is a basketcase and I will have to be the one to console her. It will be a nightmare, trust me. And Dad will be hurt to no end. He thinks so highly of H! My dad is the only read Dad in H's life, quite frankly.

Should I tell H that Dad called and said to tell him he loves him? My dad may be the only person H truly would feel accountable to. He's already convinced the kids, because of their ages, will be fine with D. He has to know that it will break my dad's heart, and he thinks highly of my dad. Maybe that little reminder wouldn't hurt but it could also be seen as manipulating/pursuing to make an issue of telling him.
I can definitely relate, Sunny. My in-laws adore me so much (and the feeling is mutual), that there has been tough times in my marriage when I think the thought of disappointing (more like "devastating") them is the only thing that's kept us together.

Puppy
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 05:05 PM
You don't want to expose to YOUR parents unless he has to leave the home. They will likely never forgive your H and that may cement him simply wanting to escape the shame.

Your call, but in laws are painful enough to deal with let alone having to walk the gauntlet of having cheated on thier daughter.

Hold off on that unless you absoutely have to.

OR, when he leaves you tell HIM to do it and hand in the phone so he does it honestly.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 05:09 PM
It would definitely devastate my parents. H's - he barely even talks to, so no big deal there!

Of course, no one really cares about what my mom thinks/feels. I know that sounds terrible, but she is a bitter, controlling woman who thinks mostly about herself. I do my best in that R but that's another story. However...my dad is different: H adores him and he adores H. Well, we all adore my dad.

I KNOW H has thought about the effects on my family because he once made the comment, "You can tell them it's all my fault," even though he was blaming me at the time for all our issues. I hadn't even brought up my family and he said that. He also has a lot of respect for my brother/sis-in-law and their kids... They all love H as well. Unfortunately, all of my family is far away. No family close to home. So - not a lot of impact because H would not have to look them in the eye ever again if he walked out.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 05:12 PM
He would have to get a blast from them on the phone though if you exposed!

Think outside the box. smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 05:17 PM
True, Allen! Of course, I wasn't planning on telling them unless/until it was necessary. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Good call on making him tell my dad if that's his decision. I'm sure H would just ignore any calls if Dad tried calling him after the fact. BUT...if he has to be the one to call and tell them, then he will hear it, regardless.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 05:52 PM
Call for him and then hand him the phone...

Tell him time to man up and watch the show.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 06:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Call for him and then hand him the phone...

Tell him time to man up and watch the show.


Thanks for the suggestion. That's exactly what I'm going to do if it comes to that. I'm praying it does not.

I will say that I worry that "making" him go to this retreat is seen as pursuing. That if I am supposed to be detaching/letting go, wouldn't I just say, "Fine...don't go. Get out." ???

The other half of me says no, that by holding firmly to the plan of him going is "saying" that I am no longer going to accept his CB and he needs to get on board with getting help. The "or get out" is implied. ???
Sunny,

I think what you want to convey is a calm, positive sense of "Either way, I'll be just fine the following Monday. My PREFERENCE is that you will want to go, and work on our marriage, but if you don't, I'll be thankful for the CLARITY that Monday morning brings, and it will be good to begin getting on with the rest of my life."

I mean, in your own words.

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 07:42 PM
That's a good stance, Puppy. I do feel I conveyed that I have no expectations that this weekend was to be a magic pill or anything like that, but I still wanted him to honor his commitment to going.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 07:54 PM
Just make sure he understands that if he refuses to go that he is communicating to you


I am unwilling to work on my marriage. I am unwilling to complete my 50% of the work to repair any harm or damage I may have done thus far. By not going I am and will be allowing my marriage to end due to my neglect.


Make sure he understands that THIS is the MESSAGE he SENDS when he refuses to go.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 08:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just make sure he understands that if he refuses to go that he is communicating to you


I am unwilling to work on my marriage. I am unwilling to complete my 50% of the work to repair any harm or damage I may have done thus far. By not going I am and will be allowing my marriage to end due to my neglect.


Make sure he understands that THIS is the MESSAGE he SENDS when he refuses to go.



That's good. I'm copying that and putting it in my phone where it's handy in case I need it.
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just make sure he understands that if he refuses to go that he is communicating to you


I am unwilling to work on my marriage. I am unwilling to complete my 50% of the work to repair any harm or damage I may have done thus far. By not going I am and will be allowing my marriage to end due to my neglect.


Make sure he understands that THIS is the MESSAGE he SENDS when he refuses to go.



Yep - -precisely.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 08:17 PM
I was going to copy and paste the "Convincing" document they sent me but it is really long and It's a pdf file. It's just really interesting. I like the principles in it a lot!

BTW: Willard Harley's book, Fall in Love Stay in Love, is required class material.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/23/10 08:24 PM
And Not Just Friends one would hope... my favourite text
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 12:40 AM
Yes, I hope that one is too!

Now...H is over an hour late home from work and hasn't called, texted, or emailed that he would be late. He usually does at least that. Sometimes on Fridays he used to go for a beer after work but has not done that in awhile.

It's inconsiderate at best for him to not call. I had dinner ready.

Do I say anything - not say anything??? If I'm supposed to be "detached" then I'm not supposed to care what he does. BUT... I'm also supposed to defend the line of respect.

I think I'm going to go out for awhile and find something to do. I'm aggravated and don't want to be here when he gets back.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 01:45 AM
You are best to not say anything... He's wrestling with going to the weekend... If you start nagging at him for not making a phone call that will push him over the edge...

Just go easy on him for the next few days so he can get through the weekend... YOU may be excited about going, but it scares the hell out of him.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 04:11 AM
I didn't say anything. It turned out he made a stop before coming home to buy a new flatscreen tv. Ummm... why??? Especially when we don't have the money??? To put upstairs "for the boys" to replace the small tv they have to watch tv and play games on upstairs.

Here's the thing: I truly think he purchased it so they'd have a big tv of their own and not intrude on HIS Xbox in the home office. See, there's a big tv in there, and the boys preferred to play on it. Now, he won't be disturbed and can hibernate even more.

I am not saying anything since we have the weekend thing next weekend, but man does it make me angry! The boys are all thinking, "Yay, Dad!" when alls he is doing is further alienating himself from the family. Just aggravating.

And yes, Allen, I'm sure he really doesn't want to have to go next weekend. I'm not sure if the fear is from having to face himself, having to make changes, or having to make a decision or what. It's not like I'm looking forward to it so much, but I just know something has to be done. I honestly don't know what to expect out of the weekend. Should be interesting...
Sunny,

How much did the TV cost? Is it typical for one or the other of you to buy a big-ticket item without first discussing it with the other?

Puppy
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 12:28 PM
Its fear of all three of those...

He's been hiding in video games and facebook for how long now?

And NOW instead of hiding and brooding with his negative cynical emotions he has to take those into a room and DEAL with them?

Given his negative emotions overwhelming him right now he has no confidence that anything GOOD will come of the weekend. He's convinced whatever happens it will be terrible and he just wants to hide in his room and play video games...

You were talking about the two boys celebrating him for giving them a larger TV... Isn't ONE of them in the loop on his facebook activity? Won't they see through that?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Sunny,

How much did the TV cost? Is it typical for one or the other of you to buy a big-ticket item without first discussing it with the other?

Puppy


It was $500-600. He discussed it with my briefly the other day, but at that time I told him we should be shelling out $1500 for this weekend retreat. I never said "no" but I didn't say yes either.

Of course, finances were an area of contention when the bomb came. He said I was not responsible with money, etc... Now: I will give you that. I don't handle money well. However, I never intentionally went out and spent money we didn't have. Everything I've spent money on has been for the kids needs, not myself.

Anyway, supposedly, he was taking over finances because I wasn't doing a good job budgeting. Well, he doesn't handle money well either. I did a big budget worksheet FT gave me and am in the process of learning financial skills. I thought when he did not get the tv Wed. night that it was a moot point but I guess not.

Of course, behind all of this is H's attitude that HE earns ALL the money and that HE never sees any benefit from it...that it all goes to house, kids, me, etc... SO, it's part of his MLC/teenage attitude, whatever you want to call it. Just like his spending the money on himself to go to Vegas 8 weeks back! It's all about him these days.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 02:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Its fear of all three of those...

He's been hiding in video games and facebook for how long now?

And NOW instead of hiding and brooding with his negative cynical emotions he has to take those into a room and DEAL with them?

Given his negative emotions overwhelming him right now he has no confidence that anything GOOD will come of the weekend. He's convinced whatever happens it will be terrible and he just wants to hide in his room and play video games...

You were talking about the two boys celebrating him for giving them a larger TV... Isn't ONE of them in the loop on his facebook activity? Won't they see through that?



I hope he sees through it. Of course, doesn't mean he won't be happy about having the big tv! lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 02:42 PM
Sit him down and explain to him that its just a ploy to distance himself from his children further...

EDUCATE your children...

If he decides to be a man he will give BACK the TV and tell him to return it

Wouldn't that be amazing to see? Your SON be the GROWN up and tell his FATHER to return the TV because its not something the house can afford right now?

BOOM! That's gotta STING!

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 02:58 PM
Hmmmm.... good idea. I did discuss with S16 that I felt it was just a means to further escape into XBox world. The thing is, S16 felt that it is better, if dad is going to escape, to do so in XBox rather than Facebook. He asked if Dad was still doing the FB stuff. I said I did not know for sure. SO, I think he's wanting to give H the benefit of the doubt. I felt I had to be honest with him.

Quite frankly - he's right on that point. IF H is no longer trolling FB, etc... it probably is better that he is escaping into Xbox rather than another person.

And, if I were to admit it - it does solve another issue. D18 is going off to college next month and H was going to get her a tv for her apt anyway. Now, she can take the old one. SO...I don't know.

Having said all of that, I think S16 could still be useful in this regard to say something to H!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 03:01 PM
This brings me to my next question, actually.

Since I will be discussing all of this with D18 on Monday (she returns from cheer camp late Sunday night) what is my approach with all of this? How can S and D help the marriage? What is it that I need to show/tell D18 and S16 so they know "how to be" in all of this?

I know you have talked at length about how families/friends of the marriage can support the M. How do you do this when it's your S and D?

I am going to pray deeply about S14. While technically he's old enough to be involved, I have to be cognizant of where he is at. I truly think it's best with him to wait to expose if he has to know, due to his Aspergers.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 03:08 PM
This all depends on your kids' level of maturity.

It sounds like your Son is pretty grown up already.

I would sit down with them and explain to them how marriages work. How delicate they are... how much risk there is of outside interferences.

They are dating age and its good for them to learn that "trust" isn't a safeguard for a relationship of any kind. That is important, but if all you have are two wreckless people who trust each other the relationship is headed for the crapper.

I would sit with both of them, teach them about relationships in GENERAL, and then explain that there are some interferences in your own marriage - FACEBOOK and XBOX.

Explain to them you two are gonig away for a weekend to START learning more about this stuff. Explain that they are free to ask questions, but to NOT approach their father abotu any of this right now because he's dealing with a lot.

This is an opportunity to bond with your kids as adults.

Take them to a restaurant or something so you know your H won't overhear or interrupt... A SAFE place. But introduce it as a relationships 101 course in general first... They will do MUCH better in their own marriages later on for you taking the time out to educate them NOW... better to learn this stuff NOW than when they are 43 right?

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 03:10 PM
EXACTLY!!!

GREAT, GREAT advice! Both D18 and S16 are very mature. S14, well, he'll have to wait. He avoids conversations like this like the plague anyway.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 03:14 PM
I am not worried at all... I am sure you will handle it well.

I am more worried about Eeyore today... His wife is having an internet affair... Even had CYBERSEX in her young daughters bedroom with her THERE ASLEEP NEXT TO HER... sick...

And NOW Eeyore has decided to tell his wife that he cheated on her before they got married... NOW... talk about handing your wayward spouse a fully loaded shotgun!

Oi veih
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 03:28 PM
Oh man...NO NO NO....not the time for that!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 04:48 PM
Question: What if H talks to the kids about "his" side. Should I talk to them about what to say in response? It's easy for me to say they should stand up to his behavior and what he says, but being very respectful kids, they are not going to probably be able to say much other than try to make him feel better. It's easier said than done for a LBS to take a stand, much less a teenager to a dad they've always respected and loved.

????
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 05:05 PM
And why do I have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach again?

H left the house several hours ago to supposedly go get some new khaki pants. Normally that would take him an hour at most. Not only that, but he has not purchased a single thing. I can tell by looking online at the accounts. I happen to know he had little to no cash last night because S needed $20 and he didn't have it and I had to go to ATM to get him some cash.

Not only that, but I just went into the bathroom and he had the strangest things in there: Veet hair removal and this back acne stuff. He has used this stuff to take all the hair off his back! OK: classic MLC behavior, I'm sure, that goes along with trying to better his appearance. But he does that AND has been gone with no real explanation for 2 1/2 hours???

At these times I really wish he weren't living at home. I really do. It makes my stomach turn and I don't know how to react. Do I casually say, "Wow...that was a long shopping trip for pants..." Do I not say anything???

Hmmm
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 05:45 PM
Just leave it for the week... if you start a fight now he will just use the weekend as ammunition and tell you he's not going...

For the next week he has "hand"
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 05:47 PM
I wasn't going to start a fight, but I know what you mean: don't give him any reason to use as an excuse for not attending. I guess even if I mention casually and "friendly" that it was a long shopping trip he might take it as "where the he*# have you been?!"

I HATE him having hand!!!

grrr
Sometimes the best jui-jitsu fighters know they have to take a pounding in order to get to the right position and/or guard so they can then turn around and dominate the situation.

You are in that position now. You are going to have to suck this up, and DOCUMENT EVERYTHING and just KEEP QUIET.

Then you will be able to DIRECT YOUR CONVERSATIONS, TRAP HIM, AND PIN HIM based on all your itel.

So take what he is giving, and just know that you are going to use HIS OWN MOMENTUM AND FOCUS AGAINST HIM when you achieve a better position.

Gosh, it just seems like we are all going back and forth with each in one big sh*tstorm of marriage, doesn't it?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 05:53 PM
Yeah...it really does, QS.

Good advice though - and your perspective helps me a lot, mentally! It isn't that I'm being a doormat by not saying anything, I'm just observing and taking notes right now - for use at a later time. :-)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 06:50 PM
Quick update: H came home and stated he had to get car check out while he was gone because it was making a bad noise. That may or may not be true, but whatever.

Incidentally, he did end up on a personal shopping spree. Bought himself 3-4 pairs of pants and new shirts. Now, am I against him spending money on himself? No, of course not. BUT... he did just purchase lots of clothing for himself just 8 weeks ago. All this attention to his appearance and his self-absorption is quite sickening. When he came home with all this and S14 asked if he'd gotten him anything, H just kinda looked at him like "Why would I do that?" and commented as such as well. Can't remember his exact words but that was the implication. (I promise I'm not reading into it...S14 looked at me like, "Ohhh Kay....." He also stated he went by Starbucks and S14 asked if he got him anything and once again, No... it's all about him. He never asks any of us anymore if he can get us anything. Even when I was out last night I texted them (H and boys) to see if they wanted anything from Starbucks... we've always done that. Not H anymore!


Just to add...of course he went straight to playing XBox once home but that's not surprising. He's not done any of the prerequisite homework for upcoming weekend yet. You log on to this site and while you don't have access to your partner's work, it does show whether they've completed it or not. I bet he doesn't even do it. I'm not supposed to say anything. They said they'll deal with it if he doesn't do it.

I'm studying today - big test on Monday.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 10:08 PM
It's likely better that he does NOT do the homework.

It may just scare him off...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/24/10 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
It's likely better that he does NOT do the homework.

It may just scare him off...


True! You just never know with H. He's definitely a weird one to figure out.

So far, the first two things have been fairly quick. An assessment of how things are and then, how they SHOULD be: specific questions on issues of commitment, passion, and how you view your partner.

The next section looks to be a quick survey of how you were raised, your background, etc...

The 3rd is a section that looks like a behavioral/personality profile.

Interesting stuff.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 12:48 AM
Something funny:

Been studying most of the day. S14 wanted to watch a movie with me in the living room so of course I said yes. Guess what he picked??? COUPLES RETREAT! Seen it before, but just so ironic, with H and I going to the weekend thing next weekend. H came into kitchen/living area to grab a bite to eat and it was actually a bit awkward watching a movie about a couples weekend seminar... Well, esp. since I know how badly he doesn't want to go!

FUNNY movie though. I sure wish all marital problems could be solved as easy as they are in the movie. Wouldn't that be nice?!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 01:03 AM
I hope it didn't discourage him! shocked
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 04:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I hope it didn't discourage him! shocked


He didn't stick around to watch it - just went back to playing XBox. He just saw a few parts of it. (We've seen it before...awhile ago.)

After while, our power went out (big storm) and me, H, and S16 were going to go to movies but nothing playing at the time. So...we ended up at Borders. S16 and I got a coffee. I told him to text his dad (he was downstairs, we were up) and S16 said, "If he wants one, he can get it himself!" lol. S16 and I hung out together looking at some stuff while H did his own thing. We weren't unfriendly to H - just H choosing to do his own thing. On the way home, S16 and I had a discussion about a few things H was out of the loop on. :-)

Got home, H went back to Xbox, of course - power back on.

I guess I'm just basically journaling because I'm frustrated. I'm ready to take a stand, so to speak, but have to wait and just pray this weekend truly does something good for our relationship!
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 06:37 AM
Hey Sunny -

I hear you on the frustration! WH spends little time at home and when he does, he's either working out or online playing AddictingGames.com. Contributes -zero- to raising kids or running household.

Comment about all the new clothes and focus on appearance: be worried. It's one of the signs of an affair.

My husband lost about 25 pounds and said he needed a new wardrobe. Also said that's why he didn't wear his wedding ring anymore, because he lost so much weight it didn't fit. He had me go with him to buy new clothes and dropped about $1500 in one day at an outlet mall buying designer duds. I was sick about it since I hadn't spent that much on clothes for the rest of us all year. When I commented about it, he told me it was HIS money and he'd spend it as he saw fit.

Ten days later, I learned about the affair...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 07:10 PM
Well, I realized when he started paying closer attention to his appearance that it was a HUGE red flag. Not that people can't care about their looks (and should) but the drastic change is a definite tipoff. All my efforts to find any kind of proof of such have been to no avail. Quite frankly, right now I don't see when anything would be happening. It would have to be during work hours - not that it is impossible for that to happen, of course. H doesn't even have a car at work - takes the bus into the city. Of course, doesn't mean OW couldn't have a car. I realize it's a distinct possibility with all the signs. That's why I had decided, before he agreed to go on this weekend, that I was going to confront him - proof or no proof - about his behavior (secret keeping, talking to other people, both men and women about our issues, and his unwillingness to work on M). Either all this stops or he leaves, simple as that. This weekend thing we're going on will probably bring it all to a head anyway. I'm betting it will be make it or break it.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 07:22 PM
AND...

Interestingly enough, the sermon at church today was based on the passage where the woman was caught in adultery and the people wanted to stone her. Jesus says the famous, "He who is without sin cast the first stone."

Now, the sermon wasn't about adultery. It was about redemption and going from unholy to holy in God's eyes AND about conflict resolution. The pastor finished the sermon by saying, "First you have to deal with your own junk before you try to resolve a conflict with someone else. What's your part? What do YOU need to fix. THEN when you own that, you can go to the other party..."

Well, in all of this with H, I HAVE looked at my part. I've fixed (180'd) those things that he complained about in our M to the best of my ability and still working on things. He has done nothing other than point fingers. I wondered if H thought about that at all. I'm guessing not but I keep praying that God will soften his heart.

Pastor also pointed out... Where was the man?! He was supposed to be stoned, according to HEbrew law, along with the woman! LOL

Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 08:51 PM
My WH's eyes always seem to glaze over whenever there's something about adultery on the news or whatever. It's like he thinks it doesn't apply to him...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:02 PM
I'm just it's a mental justification - some form of "I was driven to it" or who knows what. It baffles me when I hear someone actually justify an A and call themselves "devout Christians", like the OW in your case. Seen it happen time and time again. "If I feel this way, it can't be wrong. God must have ordained it.... these feelings are from Him."

Makes me ill.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:26 PM
Addicts are brilliant rationalizers...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:35 PM
New dilemma for me:

Just found out I could possibly have a full-time job at an office I did some work for a few years back. This would not be a very high paying job, but would possibly be a good thing. I would jump at the chance except for the fact that I had decided - and H even agreed - that I would go back to school full time to finish my degree next month. (Taking 1 class now to get back in swing of things.) If I finish my degree, my earning potential would definitely be WAY better. Right now, with no degree and mostly being a stay-at-home mom for 20 years, except with odd things and part-time gigs here and there, the most I can make is $10-12 an hour. This job is along those lines. BUT...if would provide medical insurance (at a high cost) which we do not now have because H does contract work and owns his own company.

Here's the thing: taking this full-time job would be a huge 180 for me. It would show independence and say to H that I am "fully ready to lead life w/out him." If I knew for certain he was walking out that door, I would take it. I would need it.

BUT...it probably means giving up the plan for the degree right now, which is my dream. Yes, I could go part-time...it will just be awfully hard and take that much longer to finish. I am - REGARDLESS OF MY MARITAL STATUS - committed to remaining a great mother and close to my 3 kids - esp. my 2 boys who will still be at home. Doing that and working full-time AND going to school full-time would be next to impossible.

Also - a friend of my suggested that if I were to go to work full-time at this juncture, it might hurt what I would get for alimony and child support if we divorce. Not only that, but would be more grounds for H in any custody fight. I need to seek legal counsel on this, I know.

I did have a possibility for a part-time job which I could do easily and go to school full-time still. That, however, will not cut it if H leaves and will not provide the medical insurance this job would.

Now, one might say there are other opportunities that I don't HAVE to take this one. Let me tell you - not a lot of opportunities around where I'm at right now. I've been looking for awhile. None this close to home that allow me to still be there for the boys like this would, especially.

SO.... I'm really in a dilemma. The job might be what could push H over that line of realization that I'm prepared to move on without him. Or... it could provide him with another rationalization against leaving, that "she's got work: she'll be OK"

I was advised previously on the other thread that I should definitely go back to work full-time. I don't want to do it just because it "might get my marriage back" if it goes against my dreams of finishing my degree. BUT...I can see where it might send a strong message and help H not see me so much as a burden. I know that's what WAS see us LBS spouses as...

My heart wants to go to school full-time. Hy head says work. I need help just thinking this through.....
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:42 PM
Stick with school...

The only positive is that your H may see you earning more money and you get the health insurance... big woop

The downside is not worth it...

Your H can shove it.. you worked for HIM and your kids for twenty years.. time for YOU to do something for yourself...

School
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:44 PM
And we right now have no idea how your H will react to you working full time.

The impact to the kids of you working full time and school part time could be considerable...

I don't reccomend trying that stunt right now, particularly given your marital situation.

If you could rely on your H to help out at home while you worked and studied fine, but he's NOT reliable at all right now...

Do ONE or the OTHER right now...

And I certainly don't reccomend you quitting school to work for 12 bucks a measly hour
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/25/10 09:53 PM
That's what I was thinking too. But, H has hinted at me to "get a job" for the past several years. I think it might take some weight off of him just to know that some of the college expense burden would be accounted for. FT even suggested he was really concerned about finances and if I could help in that area, he might have some relief.

I agree with that to some degree, but I also think it's still better for me to go to school and work later, when I can actually earn decent money. He even had agreed with that and it was after the bomb.

I want to make sure to consider all angles. I think school is best. Could kick myself for not going back sooner, I really could!!! Stupid depression killed my motivation for a lot of things this last several years.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 05:30 PM
Well, I just talked to D18 about everything. She took it well and was very supportive. She wasn't that surprised, actually, about any of what I had to say because she's noticed how H has not done anything at all to work towards our M or our family.

Apparently, H has talked to her several times about things. I didn't ask her to tell me what he said. I just told her that he is a very confused person right now. I explained to her that H would be looking to justify his behavior - and to have them accept his decision that he must get out of our M. I asked her to let him know, respectfully of course, that she is NOT OK with it: that she doesn't want her family torn apart and that we all deserve better than what he is doing.

Told her I wasn't trying to bring her and D16 in the middle of things, but they were old enough to act mature and stand up for what's right. I explained not to go talk to H about things, but if he talks to them, they can tell him they are angry/upset - but not to mention the specifics (at least right now) of his facebook activities and so forth that I told them about.

D18 said I didn't deserve this and she was sorry. I told her I was more concerned about the 3 of them than myself. She is very concerned about how D14 will take this if it happens. Me too. :-(

SO... I'm just praying that my stupid H realizes what he has before it's too late!!! Sitting there talking to my children all I can think is, "What an idiot!"
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 05:47 PM
Yeah-I don't get the whole justification thing either.

THEY have to be happy, THEY have to do what's right for THEM - regardless if it makes everyone ELSE miserable and require years of therapy to get over it. Hey, at least THEY'RE happy - until they're not.

Just makes you want to slap 'em upside the head with a 2x4 to give them an INKLING of the pain and heartache they're causing everyone else.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 05:56 PM
ok... Sounds like the family is mostly exposed to now. And guided well I might add.

Just tell them you would like them on the side of keeping the famly together rather than tossing a hand grenade into the middle of it...

if you talk about keeping the famly together or tearing it apart it takes off the BLAME... its still THERE, but its less aggressive

If your H can make an honest commitment and the $$ is worth it I would say work and do school part time.. but if your H is giong to be playing these wayward games you can't manage all of that.. its too much...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:17 PM
Lets do the math here :

Mrs Sunny :
-----------------------
School - Part time
Work - Full time
Mother - Full time
Housekeeper - Full time
Chef - Full time
Laundrymat - Full time
Grocer - Full time

Mr Sunny :
------------------
Work - Full time
Facebook dating - Part time
XBox - Full time

This is fair yes?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:24 PM
The problem here Sunny is that a wayward spouse can make all the demands they want.. It won't change their mood.

What they need to GET is that they aren't TRYING HARD enough... THEY have given up so THEY need to start working again...

You can dance around and do acrobatics in teh kitchen... It won't matter if you make money or whatnot...

Becuase of how he feels' he's stopped trying, and as long as he feels this way your efforts won't make much difference to him...

If you start making more money his MOOD will just find a way to spin a negative on it...

a. It insults his manhood - he's the provider not you - quit now!
b. It means he can take it easy - he will quit his job and facebook full time instead
c. It means you are a busy career woman and the famly is giong to fall apart - quit working now
d. It means HE just has to do more around the house - quit now!

I can go on... what he SAYs he wants and how he REACTS when he GETS that aren't necessarly the same thing...

Much like QS' wife he's running and thrashing about to make himself feel better but what he SAYS will help won't help him long term...

It just leaves YOU frustrated that he has you hoop hopping with no end in sight.

Just tell him what YOU are doing and to HELL what how he feels about it..

School is for the family too.. Did it ever occur to you how much it would MOTIvATE yoru kids to see YOU in school full time? You can set a wondeful example for them all...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Lets do the math here :

Mrs Sunny :
-----------------------
School - Part time
Work - Full time
Mother - Full time
Housekeeper - Full time
Chef - Full time
Laundrymat - Full time
Grocer - Full time

Mr Sunny :
------------------
Work - Full time
Facebook dating - Part time
XBox - Full time

This is fair yes?


When you put it this way, NO! Not fair at all. AT all!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Seeing Red
Yeah-I don't get the whole justification thing either.

THEY have to be happy, THEY have to do what's right for THEM - regardless if it makes everyone ELSE miserable and require years of therapy to get over it. Hey, at least THEY'RE happy - until they're not.

Just makes you want to slap 'em upside the head with a 2x4 to give them an INKLING of the pain and heartache they're causing everyone else.


And the sad part of this is, they are STILL not happy!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:54 PM
And all very good points, Allen - esp. about school. Well taken.

Don't know what it is today, but I just feel sick about all of this. I'm just disgusted with H. It's gone from sadness to angry to disgust. Last night I woke up several times and I LITERALLY wanted to take my foot and shove him out of the bed!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 06:59 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD

When you put it this way, NO! Not fair at all. AT all!


I am not even worried about the fairness as much as I am the realism of it...

This is the way your H is envisioning things when he says he wants you to work to bring more money in...

It's just another fantasy just like infidelity... not realistic at all... completley ignored the long term, ignroed the details, fooling himself ANd you into thinking it will pan out like this without a hitch...

He's not THINKING.. he's just TALKING with no follow through...

This is how people plan when they are having affairs...

he wants YOU to buy this fantasy of his... only in this fantasy you are the OW... do you see this happening the way he's describing it?

I certailny don't.. He's clearly deluded...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 07:16 PM
Just to clarify - H wanted me to go back to work full-time before all this nonsense started and the bomb was dropped. This isn't a recent thing connected to his wayward-ness. However, it was before I decided to go back to school.

Didn't want it to sound like H threw in the job thing as part of all this. Even he agreed finishing my degree was better, even after the bomb.

My confusion was in receiving advice (FT and previously on boards) that I SHOULD go to work full-time: help alleviate financial stress to H (according to FT but she didn't say that definitely, just a thought) and part of the Tough Love plan from others on forum - to indicate letting go and being self-sufficient. I can see that point. BUT... school is still better overall that a $10-12 an hour job. However, medical benefits would be a definite burden off my mind. I would still have to do everything else the way H is being right now though and that's a huge burden for me.

I don't understand about the fantasy and me being OW though, lol.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 07:32 PM
If your H is trying to sell you the idea that you two can both work full time while YOU go to school part time AND run the household and family as you are now... that's just NOT feasible

He complains about money and wants you to work full time but doesn't offer to do any more work around the home to offset your time working?

He's just using his IMAGINATION and has this fantasy world in his head where you two both run off into the working world and the household just magically takes care of itself?

If he has'nt thought it through, its just a fantasy he's selling you and he wants YOU to participate in it...

The KIDS are the ones that get screwed because the household will fall apart from undermanagement

Are you at all interested in participating in that little fantasy of his?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 07:39 PM
No....I'm not, come to think of it! Well, esp. when he is considering that he won't even be here. Of course, in this fantasy world of his, he will live close by and still be a great dad and share the kids... and we'll be buddies...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 07:55 PM
Planning ahead: if H does end up refusing to go, I am going with the script for a page or so back about his refusal being neglect and the demise of M.... and will ask him to leave at that point.

I need to prepare for the fact that he may be in the 25% that still does not want to work through things after this marriage weekend. BOY, that will be some drive home! Ugh. I hate to think that way but need to mentally prepare for all possibilities. If he is not committed to working on M, giving up his secretive behavior and discussing M issues with FT only (or a friend of the marriage) then I am still asking him to leave.

D18 and S16 are both aware of this and supportive.
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 08:37 PM
As I'm reading through your thread and others on this site, I'm struck by how many people just "check out" of their marriage and fully expect the partner to pick up the slack of the household and kids, including my own WH.

And the job thing kills me, as my WH has brought that up a few times as well. As his life changed very little after we had kids, he has NO clue what's involved in actually being a parent. It's easy for them to say, "Go get a job." But when you ask them to do laundry, fix dinner, get groceries, or run kids somewhere to help out, they act totally put upon.

Allen's right - total fantasy. Your WH expects his life to go on unchanged, except for the increase in your income. Clueless!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 09:17 PM
Yep - don't you know it. I think he truly feels like I don't do much of anything.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 10:43 PM
Why don't you make a list Sunny...

Make a list of all the work that needs done to care for the household

Put it on a weekly spreadsheet Monday - Sunday 8 am - 10 pm... fill in every cell slot to indicate where you are and what you are doing at that time...

If you want to be daring even add a column for each to the right showing the COST of the work too

And totalling hours of work at the end of each day of course...

Example

Monday
8 am | Make breakfast | $10 Food
9 am | Run laundry | $5 Load

...

6 pm | Make dinner | 15$ Food
------------------------------------
10 hrs | total | $75 total

etc




Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 10:48 PM
Put every little thing on there that takes more than 15 mins of your time
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/26/10 11:00 PM
that's a very good idea.

I mean, yes, I may get a couples hours to myself during the day that he doesn't get, but I'm also cleaning up the kitchen after dinner, doing laundry, etc... at 8-9-10pm at night!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 12:18 AM
I did it for my home a couple years ago too.. a real eye opener.. I can show you mine if you want
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 01:04 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I did it for my home a couple years ago too.. a real eye opener.. I can show you mine if you want


Yes, definitely!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 01:06 AM
Big surprise... H is not home and it's over an hour and 1/2 of when he should be home. No call, no text, no email saying he'd be late... geez, this is aggravating. I will say nothing, considering our upcoming weekend, but this is really inconsiderate.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 02:11 AM
Can you load this?

http://24.141.78.27/Schedule.xls
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 03:35 AM
yes....Awesome! Thanks, Allen! This is great.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 01:05 PM
I forgot to total up the hours column for you.

I can update the sheet if you want. If you are Excel savvy you can probably figure out how to run a CountX on the cells and divide by four... not too tricky smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 05:08 PM
I know the basics of Excel so hopefully I can figure it out. :-)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 08:39 PM
Hmmm... H took cash out of the ATM today. I noticed he did that another time recently. Typically we don't use ATMs and just use our debit cards. He truly doesn't need cash very much... Now, there could be an acceptable reason for it but of course, under the circumstances, my mind gets away from me. What does he want to spend money on that he doesn't want me seeing the purchase online???

Yeah - I know I'm not supposed to worry about that stuff right now. Doesn't mean it doesn't get to me, esp. with him being late last night and his behavior even more detached than usual this week. At lease before he made an attempt to connect somehow. Now, we might as well be in different houses. I guess it's because of his feelings towards the upcoming weekend.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 08:41 PM
Look for a purchase when he gets home or a receipt in his clothes...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Look for a purchase when he gets home or a receipt in his clothes...



I will do that. It wasn't a large sum - $100 - but still. He doesn't seem to mind leaving his wallet unattended, usually, so will see.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 09:05 PM
$100 is a fair bit of cash... does he usually keep that amount in his wallet?

You know, AFTER the weekend is over you could start a ledger. He complained you weren't managing money well so just start keeping track of EVERYTHING in an accounting ledger... yours AND HIS expenditures...

You can ask him to account for every dime all in the guise of wanting to manage household monies better

He can't complain since he's the one that WAS complaining in the first place...

He may give you the "well, I just meant you keep track of your money, i know what I buy"...

You can always reply back

"but I know what I buy, and you don't seem to be concerned about keeping ME informed.. where's YOUR ledger?"



Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/27/10 09:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
$100 is a fair bit of cash... does he usually keep that amount in his wallet?

You know, AFTER the weekend is over you could start a ledger. He complained you weren't managing money well so just start keeping track of EVERYTHING in an accounting ledger... yours AND HIS expenditures...

You can ask him to account for every dime all in the guise of wanting to manage household monies better

He can't complain since he's the one that WAS complaining in the first place...

He may give you the "well, I just meant you keep track of your money, i know what I buy"...

You can always reply back

"but I know what I buy, and you don't seem to be concerned about keeping ME informed.. where's YOUR ledger?"





Good idea about the ledger. It will go along with my new budget worksheet! Of course, this is assuming we're still together after the weekend. :-/

I guess it isn't all that unusual for him to pull out $100 if he has to have cash. He just doesn't usually need cash.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 02:35 AM
This is weird. The boys and I were watching TV. H was even watching and laughing for awhile. Then he announces he and D are going to bookstore. (She was upstairs.) Hmmm... this is not usual at all. I don't know if he asked her or she asked him to go. I have to stop being so paranoid. Neither of them asked the boys or I if we wanted to go along. (Typically we ask each other.) Makes me wonder if this trip is more of a "lets talk" thing. Well, I hope and pray if it is that D stands up for our marriage. She's not very good at being hard on people. She's too sweet for her own good.

While we were watching TV S16 mentioned needing to go somewhere Thursday night. I mentioned H and I wouldn't be around. H said nothing. Didn't acknowledge the conversation at all. I swear, I'm going to be ticked if he bails on this weekend.

Just such strange behavior the past few days. I know it all has to do with his dread/fear of the weekend... but, I'm just concerned it means he's going to balk and not go!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 02:42 AM
Don't wait for him to bail... Just focus on teh idea that "he's going whether he likes it or not"

YOU need to put some scripts together to hit him with if he DOES TRY... but you do NOT let him off the hook if he TRIES to bail.

And I will tell you right now odds are 100 to 1 he WILL test you to see if you will LET him off the hook and bail... YOU will NOT
He's also likely spinning your daughter, Sunny. It's best that you try to talk to her directly, without overtly prying.

Puppy
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 02:48 AM
Ya he's likely prepping her...

I dunno, I would tell all of your kids NOT to go on these private little chats.. Have them invite the whole family when he tries that stunt...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 02:53 AM
I have thought about that - what I will say when (if) he tries to bail. Basically, it goes something like this. (From what we worked on previously.)

"So, you're not willing to go even after you said you would. What you are saying then is you are unwilling to work on your marriage. You are unwilling to complete your 50% of the work necessary to repair any harm or damage and hope for the future. By not going you are and will be allowing this marriage to end by your neglect. If that is your stance, then perhaps it is time for you to pack your things."

Then, if he says he's willing to do other things (like that stupid cruise suggestion) I will say, "And how has it worked so far trying your methods to reconnect? Let's see: talking to other women/friends about our issues but not a professional; escaping into XBox every free moment at home; trolling Facebook for old friends and girlfriends and having sex chats. Yeah, your ideas have worked really well so far. No, I think this is best left to professionals."

And I will stick by my guns. If he refuses to go, I will tell him there's the door.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 04:09 AM
Sounds good.. you may want to put something about abandoning his children in the first paragraph... you have three kids and mentioning them should be a huge part of any confrontation you make... don't make it about just you or you lose a lot of leverage

And since they wont BE there to say anything on their own BEHALF you ARE speaking for four here.. not just for yourself... remember you are speaking on behalf of you and three others... always speak as if four people are being harmed
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 12:38 PM
I agree with both of you that he is trying to prep D - and may try with boys as well. I know he has had these chats before as D told me when I talked to her on Monday that he's said some things. I will see if I can find out without overtly prying today - as to what transpired. I had told her on Monday that he will try to justify his actions and feelings. It's a fine line: I told her and S16 both that it isn't that I want them to be anti-Dad, I just want them to be FOR the family being together.

And good idea, Allen, about making sure to include the kids in the script. The sad part is, like most WAS, H doesn't think of it as abandoning his children. He truly believes he will still be here for them: live close by, do things with them, be at their events, etc... Heck, at one time he even made it out that I could go get an apt and HE would stay in the house with the boys! You know, because they're boys and they need DAD more than mom. D18 will be off at college in just 3 weeks. Talk about stress, GEEZ. Like that's not going to be emotional enough without going through all of this at the same time. D and I are very close and now she will be gone and I'm facing separation/divorce at the same time. Anyway, the point being - H does not believe it will hurt the children all that much. I've asked them to take a stand and tell him it will if he discusses it with them (D18 and S16) but it's hard to "be tough" with your Dad.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 12:43 PM
As for the $100: I looked in his wallet. There is only like $20 left. Not a lot of receipts in there, but a bunch of lottery tickets. I know his group of coworkers go in together to get tickets and he's always purchased them, so that's not all that odd. However, they should be paying him back or should've already paid him for it. So, either he spent that money already on other things or should be getting cash back.

Just something to keep in the back of my mind.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 01:04 PM
Wow - right after I typed that last part H came into the living room. I got up early this morning and came in here to study for class. He sat down and started asking me about homework. I thought he meant for my class. He was talking about for the weekend deal. Asked if the books came in, and I replied they had. He asked when (but I'm not sure why.) Anyway, I then stated he should've gotten an email. He asked if the homework was online and I replied it was. OK: you get the idea, you don't need a play by play, lol.

Then, the weirdest thing happened: He came over behind where I was sitting, kissed me on the head and then wrapped his arms around me and hugged me. I was floored. It took everything I had to not cry. This is after not touching me at all for at least 10 days. He didn't say anything and neither did I. Well, he just asked me a question about school and I answered. Then he left for work.

OK, so I cried after he left. At least I didn't cry with him here!

I know I can't read a lot into this exchange. But - it did tell me he intends to go this weekend and that he may even plan on cooperating.

Hmmm... maybe D18 did have a few things to say to him afterall last night!

(Good thing I'd switched my computer screen to the website for my class before he walked over!)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 01:08 PM
Just to add: the kiss on the head/hug exchange actually seemed affectionate and not just "oh, I feel sorry/guilty for hurting Sunny...." like it has in the past. Well, that or previously it was a precursor to him wanting sex...
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 01:30 PM
Hard to know WHAT he's thinking right now, Sunny - total roller coaster! Hopefully he's back on the "I want to save my
marriage" part of the ride.

I'll be rooting for you!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 01:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Seeing Red
Hard to know WHAT he's thinking right now, Sunny - total roller coaster! Hopefully he's back on the "I want to save my
marriage" part of the ride.

I'll be rooting for you!


That's what I'm hoping, but I'm cautious, of course, in assuming anything. It isn't that I see it as a sign that everything's going to be fine, but it does make me feel better about going on this marriage weekend thing. I've been pretty dang detached the last 10 days and maybe that has made a difference. I mean REALLY detached - dim, even though we're living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed.

Thanks for the support, SR! Rooting for you too! smile
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 04:08 PM
Talk to your daughter and find out what happened at the bookstore if anything...

She SHOULD be putting you in the loop... If you have to ASK her then DO IT...

NO secrets in the household remember? Teach her good family values - secrets are cancer to a marriage... spill woman
Posted By: LSG Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 05:18 PM
SunnyD,

I am hoping for the best for you. Keep positive and do not let yourself veer from your good DBing efforts.

Keep on going with what is working so far!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Talk to your daughter and find out what happened at the bookstore if anything...

She SHOULD be putting you in the loop... If you have to ASK her then DO IT...

NO secrets in the household remember? Teach her good family values - secrets are cancer to a marriage... spill woman


OK, will do. I had school all morning and now she is out for awhile. I'm sure she won't mind telling me. I just don't want to make the mistake of undermining her relationship with her dad. Obviously, no matter what, it will be important for the kids to maintain a good relationship with H. However, I DID explain to her that love includes maintaining proper accountability. She has a good grasp on that because I have demonstrated that well in my parenting, I believe. We have a high degree of warmth in our family yet also a high degree of rules and expectations. She and the boys have expressed their thankfulness for the boundaries set and complain about their peers that do not have these boundaries. I gave her that comparison the other day during our discussion: loving dad also means not accepting his CB, esp. if he tries to rationalize it to you. You can still say, "Dad I love you..." while also saying, "but this is wrong...and it DOES hurt us kids."

These are rather adult concepts for teens to have to put in practice but I hope they learn something valuable from it - something that will help their loves too.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 05:30 PM
Originally Posted By: LSG
SunnyD,

I am hoping for the best for you. Keep positive and do not let yourself veer from your good DBing efforts.

Keep on going with what is working so far!



Thank you, LSG! I appreciate your support. It truly does help to have the encouragement from these boards.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 10:04 PM
Talked with D about trip to Borders. H DID initiate - wanted to "go do something with her." So, yes, he was trying to spin things. So much for my hopes being raised after this morning's exchange. D said H was still very negative last night about things. She didn't really want to talk about it - about what was specifically said. I took that to mean he was still telling her he wanted out, etc... She did say she thanked him for being willing to go this weekend. He said basically that he was willing to go and have a decent attitude about learning some things about himself. (Not that he was willing to work on our M but it would benefit him for his future.) SO: I guess I should be glad he's willing to go. I'm just disappointed that his attitude has not changed and I thought maybe it had, after this morning.

Still...I wonder what the kiss on the head/hug was all about. ??? Who knows!

I hate when hopes are raised only to be dashed. :-( BUT... just because I'm feeling sad about that doesn't mean my action plan has changed so I'm still on target.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 11:36 PM
And...still no "homework" done by H. Not surprised.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/28/10 11:39 PM
Just focus on him going... that's it...

Sunny he's going to go through this whole reconcilliation process kicking and screaming... It's not realistic to expect any more than that from him right now...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 03:59 AM
Yeah...I know you're right. I just hate the darn rollercoaster of emotions!

He just asked about homework again. lol

We're supposed to read the 1st 2 chapters of The 7 Principles for Making Marriages Work (John Gottman) and highlight what's important to us. Also supposed to read part of Falling in Love Staying in Love (Willard Harley) and also highlight. I'm sure we're supposed to read the whole thing at some point, but just parts for now. Not sure what other materials we'll have when we get there.

I keep asking myself, "How is knowing how a successful M is supposed to work and how to fall in love/stay in love helps when he doesn't even care about having a successful M or falling back in love, he just wants out?!!!"

LOL

BUT.... I'm going on faith here!
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 07:29 AM
It's hard to know WHAT'S going on in their heads right now because they don't even know themselves. He may be going to "improve himself" (because he can't see beyond the tip of his nose right now), but he may learn a few things that surprise him about his marriage.

I know I've gone kicking and screaming to things I didn't want to in order to placate WH - and ending up learning something. Perhaps that will happen this weekend to your WH.

You'll have to let us know what it's like and how it goes.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 09:22 PM
I sure hope he learns some things. I know I need to learn some things, but I just worry about his attitude of not taking responsibility for anything...

We leave in a few hours! Should be an interesting 4 hour car ride. We haven't been alone together for 4 hours in quite awhile... might be pretty uncomfortable. And what the heck are we going to do on the way home if it goes badly?!!!! Ugh. Not wanting to think about that but I probably should have my ducks in a row (and have some scripts ready) just in case.

D did write H a letter that I found this morning in plain view on the computer desk where he spends so much time playing XBox. It was opened, so he read it. She basically said she didn't think we should throw 20 years away without trying - that she wants what is best for the family - that she's worried most about S14... that she loves H and she knows he is unhappy but thinks he should go with the right attitude this weekend and thanked him for being willing. She stated she agreed with some of the things he had to say the other night (at Borders) but also feels they all should've spoken up more clearly about wanting me to get help for the depression issues. Anyway, it wasn't as "tough" as I would've liked, but I know she tried very hard. :-) I would've liked to see her say that divorce would be terrible for the family - and that they (kids) would be devastated. Oh well.
I'm thinking headphones. Big, badass, noise-canceling headphones. cool

Safe travels, Sunny!

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 09:27 PM
HA HA! Not a bad idea. I guess I'll take my school books to study and stick in an ipod since I don't have those. :-)

Thanks, Puppy! I'll try and update everyone on how it goes. Who knows: maybe it's so awesome that I'll tell everyone here they just need to find a way to drag their WS's to one of these workshops...
Seriously, I will say a prayer for you guys, Sunny.

Puppy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 10:16 PM
Thank you, I appreciate it!!!
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 10:32 PM
4 hours alone together! Yikes! I can understand your trepidation! Ask him:

*What he wanted to be when he grew up
*His favorite childhood memory
*His favorite teacher in school
*The first girl he had a crush on
*His favorite type of food
*His favorite animal
*His least favorite reptile
*If he had $50,000 to spend on a friend's party, what would he spend it on (my WH said he would never spend $50K on friend, only himself - BIG surprise, lol!)

--Out of the blue stuff like that. It's fun, it's unexpected, and you can learn a lot. Warning: mood counts. If he's in a playful mood, it will be fun. If he's in a bad mood, save it until he's in a playful mood.

Have fun, learn lots, and let us know how it goes!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/29/10 11:20 PM
Good suggestions, SR!
Posted By: LSG Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 07/31/10 07:10 AM
SunnyD,

The letter may not have been as tough as you like, but maybe it will still have an impact. Your D is probably a little worried about her relationship with H.

My prayers are with you always.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/01/10 01:49 AM
Good insight on the letter, LSG. Thank you for your support.

Popping in to say the weekend is AWESOME! I would highly recommend it to EVERYONE in our positions...if you can get spouse to go. It's not what I thought it would be at all - but it's even better.

I don't have any time to go into details or stick around, but wanted to tell everyone that I think it is going well. H is not all of a sudden full committed to M but I have seen quite a bit of the fog lift... Lets hope it continues. Please continue praying for us: tomorrow is a big day. I can't wait to tell everyone the details of this workshop. It is SO worth it. So many people in pain....and going through what we are all going through. This workshop fits right in line with everything discussed here - DBing, Respect, huge stance on affairs and WHY THEY ARE NOT THE ANSWER TO M PROBLEMS, etc...

Sunny
I am happy for you Sunny. And I really envy you. I could not get my wife to go to ANY weekend retreat.

I REALLY hope that this starts a new path for you.
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 05:39 AM
Looking forward to hearing the report AND the impact it has on your husband!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 02:39 PM
Well, I will start by saying I was prematurely optimistic when I wrote that Sat. night. I was correct about the weekend being awesome - it truly was! However, I discovered last night that H was not as affected by it all as I thought he'd been. It was truly sad - devastating in fact. I let my hopes and expectations rise greatly because of the positive things he said and the way he acted, just to be crushed by the reality that his commitment level had not changed at all. He is willing to "work on the R, but not the M" and I'm still not sure I understand that.

I will write a full report in a bit but I just wanted to put that out there. :-( Rough, rough night last night (but I recovered well, I believe.) Supposed to be in class right now but just couldn't get up and do it. I look and feel like hell.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 04:27 PM
Weekend Recap:
New Beginnings was absolutely incredible and I would still recommend it, even though the end results for me on Sunday evening were not quite what I’d hoped and had come to expect after all the sessions. That’s why I ended up so hurt – because H displayed such positive behaviors after everything… but I’m getting ahead of myself.

Basically, we started off in a big group with a lecture type environment. Then we broke up into 2 smaller groups to do more personal sharing type stuff. The lecture type deal went into the anatomy of a relationship: why you’re attracted, why things go south, why affairs develop, why you withdraw, etc… It’s pretty specific and very insightful – even for someone like me who has been a Psych major and read tons of stuff on relationships. It was maybe the way the material was presented that made a difference, I’m not sure. Anyway, in the small group sessions it is not easy for people to share such intimate details about what’s going on with them, but everyone is better for it. When you leave for the day, you and your spouse are given homework to do together. It was through this homework interaction – and H seeming so positive – that my hopes rose in thinking the fog was lifting.

The Sunday night small group session is where people talk about how their commitment level to their marriage has changed over the 3 days. What they intend to do to strengthen their bond, if they now have hope they didn’t have, etc… Well, believe me: I didn’t expect H to go from totally uncommitted to 100% committed, but when he shared so arrogantly that he had only come because he was basically forced – that he still had very little commitment to the marriage and didn’t see the hope that everyone else saw in their situations, that he was committed to being a “good parent” along side me and working on our relationship but not the marriage – I was dumbfounded: totally blindsided – again – even worse perhaps than the day of the bomb. Why had he acted so positively all weekend yet still “had no hope”?! I actually stormed out of the room in tears – and was so completely embarrassed and humiliated. Here everyone else was professing their love for their spouses and renewing their commitments and H was a total and complete cold-hearted snake. I was basically inconsolable through the end of the day. I did go back into the room but I cried most of the time. I didn’t want to but I couldn’t stop myself. At the end, I did feel better that people came up and hugged me – told me H was an idiot if he couldn’t see what he had in me. The guy that ran the weekend hugged me and told me to have faith – that it wasn’t over – to just keep doing what was right.

So, we left and had the 4 hour ride home. H and I discussed our feelings. I told him that I understood his position and why I was hurt. I explained to him that he needed to make a decision that he was either going to work on the R or not – that if he had already made his mind up that he wanted out and was not going to work on the R – that he needed to go – that it is too hard and too confusing on me and on the kids for him to be home and yet separated in our own home. He said he understood but he never came to an actual decision that was definite. He mentioned all the changes in me. I said I was no longer the person I had been 3 months ago – that I was no longer willing to accept mediocrity in my life. I explained that I wasn’t just acting differently – that I feel differently; I AM different. And you know what? As hurt as I am right now, I believe it for myself. I DO realize that if H chooses to leave that he really is a complete idiot because if he thinks he can get someone better than me, he is mistaken. What’s sad for me mostly is that the kids will be the ones to pay the ultimate price for his complete and utter foolishness. That’s so hard. Unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about that. I’ve done all I can to save him from himself and to keep it together.

This is hard – so very hard. I don’t know what to do from here and could use some insight. We have follow up stuff we’re supposed to do: 30 min. conversations each day, things to reconnect, etc… I don’t know whether to try to do those things are not. Part of me says yes: that if he’s willing to work on our R that it’s worth doing these things. Part of me says no: if he still is not committed to the M that the best thing I can do is let go – to force him to make a choice, out or in.

I expected this weekend to force that decision, I suppose. It didn’t really happen. It provided SO many tools, yet I stand more confused than when I left. During this weekend there are so many confessions of things, yet honestly – H showed no signs of an affair or near any confession of one. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, of course.

I guess I now have to decide still whether or not I am going to ask him to leave if he doesn’t make a decision to do so. I have some non-negotiables if he does not leave: complete transparency with the cellphone and computer, time spent with me and not Xbox all the time, MC or the follow-up 8 week course after New Beginnings, stuff like that. If he won’t commit to these things, he should move out. Does that sound reasonable?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 06:32 PM
OK...I'm not getting any responses. :-( It's probably because my weekend recap is so long.

I guess I'm just feeling really down right now and could use some encouragement.
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:24 PM
Hey Sunny -

I'm SO sorry things didn't go like you hoped! Talk about a roller coaster! What is wrong with that man, hurting you like that?

Does he typically do grand-standing things like this? Or is this totally out of the ordinary for him?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:39 PM
OK Sunny... The biggest mistake I can see right now is you putting all your emotions on HIS choices...

If you were a man I would say you have handed your balls over to your wife.

And why are you looking for him to say anything positive? He's a wayward and they do that.

I would carry on with the program whether he is involved or not.. You just learn a lot more and are all the better for it.

YOu don't need him to be part of the life you live everyday.

Your H's involvement is an option.

And why leave the decision of moving to him? You put the weekend in his hands, you put moving in his hands, you are talking about putting the homework for the program in his hands again...

If HE AGREES, it happens, if he doen'st agree.. it doens't happen... What the HELL is THAT?

YOu basically are surrendering 100% of your life to his erratic moods and let THAT drive you.

I could have told you at the end of the weekend he would still be bitter.. It is a first step...

HE needs to realize that if he pursues divorce there will be no "relationship" with you anymore. He thinks he can walk out with whomever he has on the other end of the phone and you will still be chummy with him : set him straight.

You divorce and abandon this family and you will not be welcome anymore. Period.

There are many spouses I have seen on this forum that want to cake-eat, and that's essentially what he's targeting for when he says he will work on the relationship but not the marriage.

He wants an amicable abandonment arrangement with you. Just tell him no deal - get out.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:40 PM
I wish I knew what was wrong with him...

It's somewhat unordinary but he prides himself on his "honesty and forthrightness."
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:42 PM
He's a liar Sunny... He prides himself on his public image.

Just start painting him out to friends and family for abaondonment and beligerence and you will see him get very angry.

I say expose him and press him to leave... Let attachment wear on him...

He has to work on the program or he's out.. period.
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:46 PM
Don't look for logic where there's none to be found. MLCs, affairs - all defy logic.

He may pride himself on "honesty and forthrightness" while justifying to himself why he's lying and being secretive with you.

Again, this is NOT the man you married, Sunny. An alien has invaded. Treat him accordingly.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
He's a liar Sunny... He prides himself on his public image.

Just start painting him out to friends and family for abaondonment and beligerence and you will see him get very angry.

I say expose him and press him to leave... Let attachment wear on him...

He has to work on the program or he's out.. period.


Sad part is, I have no one to expose him to except the kids. No family involvement on his part and I don't even know his friends at work. We have no mutual friends at this point.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 07:59 PM
But I agree - work on things or out. I guess I'm just questioning whether or not just to tell him out if he's willing to work but doesn't really want to.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 08:02 PM
Just start packing his things...

You get a meeting together with your daughter and son and explain to them the weekend didn't meet your satisfaction so he's giong to be asked to leave... A layabout husband frolicking on facebook and playing video games isn't a good example for him to be setting in the home, not to mention his attitude towards you.

He had a chance to change it so now he's out.

Start packing his things and he will probably complain.

Tell him he either participates in the marriage and family or he knows where the door is.

No one to expose to?

Expose him to your friends or invent one. A trick i suggested earlier is to wait til he's coming home and be on the phone in earshot of him... Talk about his behaviour right out in the open on the phone and explain his plans for abandonment and his dishonestly etc... paint him out as a bad husband and father... Aim for the groin here... There doesn't even need to be anyone on the other end.. He can still experience public humiliation watching you expose him over the telephone...

He will want to know who you were talking to... Just tell him "a friend of the marriage you don't want to be part of, so he can mind his own business"


Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just start packing his things...

You get a meeting together with your daughter and son and explain to them the weekend didn't meet your satisfaction so he's giong to be asked to leave... A layabout husband frolicking on facebook and playing video games isn't a good example for him to be setting in the home, not to mention his attitude towards you.

He had a chance to change it so now he's out.

Start packing his things and he will probably complain.

Tell him he either participates in the marriage and family or he knows where the door is.

No one to expose to?

Expose him to your friends or invent one. A trick i suggested earlier is to wait til he's coming home and be on the phone in earshot of him... Talk about his behaviour right out in the open on the phone and explain his plans for abandonment and his dishonestly etc... paint him out as a bad husband and father... Aim for the groin here... There doesn't even need to be anyone on the other end.. He can still experience public humiliation watching you expose him over the telephone...

He will want to know who you were talking to... Just tell him "a friend of the marriage you don't want to be part of, so he can mind his own business"




Hmm...thought: it could be one of the people we met over the weekend that we got to know well!

Now: I guess I should give him the opportunity to work on the marriage or not first, right? He did say he was willing to work on our relationship, just wasn't "committed" to staying in the marriage. I'm not sure if that's semantics or what. I'm too emotionally close to the sitch to determine. He even said in his public address that it didn't mean "3 months from now things won't be great..." So, what he said was very conflicting. One minute he's saying he's not committed, the next, we could be great in 3 months. Then - when I came back into the room, he proceeded to hold my hand while I cried. Just weird. Ya'll are right: no sense trying to make logic!

So - if he's willing to do the homework and work the program, I let him stay? Even if he's not "committed to the marriage"??? And if he's willing to work the program one of my conditions is still transparency, right???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/02/10 09:03 PM
OK, by saying "relationship" but not working on "marriage" he's saying something a guy can get right away :


I want to pursue and end to this marriage, but I don't want to feel bad about that. More important I want you to be happy about my abandoning you and this family. I want to fully preserve my public image as a great father and a great husband, so I want you to be nice to me and not rat me out or trash me to all of your friends.

In short, I want an exit that causes me no inconvenience or embarassment whatsoever. I am chosing to leave, but I don't want any of the unpleasant consequences that may come with that.


He wants to CAKE EAT... I have and you have to, seen this on this forum where the wayward wants to leave, but says "I want us to still be friends"

By "relationship" he means he wants you to be all friendly with him after he is divorced, like you two are best buddies still... You ok with him walking bout but dropping by to do laundry or use you whenever it suits him?

He's trying to soften his exit as much as he can... He doens't want any drama... He wants to abandon his family but there to be no adverse consequences. That, in a nutshell, is what he's saying.

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
OK, by saying "relationship" but not working on "marriage" he's saying something a guy can get right away :


I want to pursue and end to this marriage, but I don't want to feel bad about that. More important I want you to be happy about my abandoning you and this family. I want to fully preserve my public image as a great father and a great husband, so I want you to be nice to me and not rat me out or trash me to all of your friends.

In short, I want an exit that causes me no inconvenience or embarassment whatsoever. I am chosing to leave, but I don't want any of the unpleasant consequences that may come with that.


He wants to CAKE EAT... I have and you have to, seen this on this forum where the wayward wants to leave, but says "I want us to still be friends"

By "relationship" he means he wants you to be all friendly with him after he is divorced, like you two are best buddies still... You ok with him walking bout but dropping by to do laundry or use you whenever it suits him?

He's trying to soften his exit as much as he can... He doens't want any drama... He wants to abandon his family but there to be no adverse consequences. That, in a nutshell, is what he's saying.



OK, I get it. I didn't want to totally believe it, but you're saying it solidifies it in my mind. I talked to S16 and D18 today about the weekend. They are in agreement that this is not what I deserve. Next I need to talk to S14 which is going to be rough.

SOOOO... in this context, should I forget any allowance of him staying in the home and "doing the homework/program - working on the relationship?" Should I abandon that all together and tell him to leave if he does not want to be in this marriage? Is doing the "homework" going to get him to the point of wanting the marriage, I guess is the bigger question. ???? Hmmm... something to think about. What do you think?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:19 AM
Secondly, should I confront him with this attitude and just say that's what I feel that he is saying?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:32 AM
Just start setting some boundaries and expectations right now.. He clearly thinks he can abandon the marriage and you will remain his pal for life...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 03:24 AM
We just had a long conversation. I told him unequivocally that if he does not want to be married to me he should go ahead and leave. I said I would respect his decision but he needs to understand it is his choice that would be devastating to me, to our kids, etc... He tried to turn it back on me to say that HE was the one that has been devastated, by me "ruining our family" the last few years with my depression issue and spending habits. He still puts all the blame on me and not any on himself, which is beside the point, I guess. I turned it right back around and said love is a decision: he was making the choice not to decide to forgive the mistakes I've owned up to.

Anyway, he said if I was asking for a decision right now he would say he would have to leave. I reiterated my stance. Further, I stated I could NOT be his pal and I realized that is what he wants, but I can't do it. I cannot be friends with someone who wants to devastate me and my children. I stated I would be cordial, of course, for the kids' sake - and that I would be fine even though what I felt what was best for the kids was to have parents that are happily married and I want what's best for the kids. I did get in there that eventually I expected to have a healthy R whether with him or not.

He went on and on about how I have depleted all the good feelings he has for me...that it's just all gone. He further stated that there is no one else - that he's not looking to date or anything else. Says it would be easy for him to hand over the phone and computer, etc... He claims he only was hiding these things because I was hiding mine. Well, I guess I have, but not because I truly have anything to hide. I didn't want him finding this forum, for instance, that is on my history - or all of the documents I've saved in my files. Anything I have to hide is to save my marriage!

So yes: you hit the nail on the head: he wants out but he wants me and kids to be OK with it. I made sure he knows I am not OK with it.

He truly does think all this is all my fault - and it's so crazy to me that he is justifying everything this way!

I held my ground and stayed strong. I'm proud of that. I was confident and didn't even get teary.

He wants a week to do the homework from the program and see how things are then. I didn't really want to give him a week but since he's willing to do the work, I figured OK. He still seems to think it won't do any good, so I wonder why he even wanted a week. He commented that it wasn't so he could find a place. I said, "Oh, I know, because I can always just call the Residence Inn for you...." Bottom line here? He wants out but doesn't want to actually have to leave and deal with the consequences.

SO - we then went on to table the discussion and did the "homework". Is that not odd???

Geez - life sure is weird and cruddy at times.
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:03 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Bottom line here? He wants out but doesn't want to actually have to leave and deal with the consequences.


That IS a problem!

Because unless he can split in two and be both a good husband and a walk away husband, he's going to have to make a choice.

Good job, Sunny! Now you both know where you stand.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:05 PM
Just tell him the following :

a. If you are going to continue to keep your negative attitude then go... I don't want to do this work with someone who is choosing to be miserable.
b. This isnt' clinical depression on your part, you don't have any genetic chemical imbalance in your brain you just want to be negative
c. I won't expose that cynicism to these kids any longer

What you told him was quite good, the only part of it I would take out is that you respect his decision - you don't - so why lie to him and make him feel good about leaving?

Be very careful here. He does not want to leave and he may try to lead you on in order to stay in the home - he KNOWS it will cost more for him to live elsewhere.

If he's willing to hand over his phone then do it. You tell him he can see your phone any time he wants. The only private thing you keep is an online journal for marriage building and he is not privy to that.

The key point in fighting this is to make it DIFFICULT for him to leave. Part of MWD is to make it inviting to stay, which helps, but you also need to make leaving unpleasant for him too. No begging or yelling, but hit him in the groin by telling him by walking out that door he is no longer a man.

Have you read Relationship Rescue by Phil McGraw?

95% of his problems are addressed in detail very early on in that book.

McGraw lists ten "bad spirits" that people take on that contaminate a marriage - your husband is using them daily on you and he thinks its constructive. That text should put a stop to it very quickly :

Here they are on his site, but they are in the book too :


Every one of us has an irrational and destructive emotional side to our personality. This dark side can sabotage your relationship in an insidious way.

Below are the most common characteristics of what Dr. Phil calls "bad spirits," and how they can impact a relationship.

You're a Scorekeeper
Competing can quickly turn a relationship into an ugly battle of one-upmanship. How can you possibly be a winner if it is at the expense of making the person you supposedly love a loser? Solid relationships are built on sacrifice and caring, not power and control. Competitiveness can drain the joy, confidence and productivity out of any relationship.

You're a Faultfinder
There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism if it is designed to improve the relationship. But it can often give way to constant faultfinding -- in which you obsess over the flaws and imperfections rather than find value in your partner. Get off your partner's back and you may see your partner moving toward you.

You Think It's Your Way or the Highway
If you've always got to be right, then you're ready to fight till the end. No truer words were ever spoken, says Dr. Phil; you will fight to the end...the end of your relationship. You can't be self-righteous or obsessed with control and do what's best for the relationship at the same time.

You Turn Into an Attack Dog
When you get in an argument, do you have a killer stare, a harsh tone and hurtful words? Attack dogs may experience short-term gain, but the target of the abuse becomes filled with bitterness and resentment. While it's easy to fall into viciousness, it's much harder to repair the resulting consequences.

You are a Passive Warmonger
Instead of fault-finding or engaging in character assassination, these toxic partners try to thwart their partner by constantly doing that which they deny they are doing -- in such an indirect way as to escape accountability if they are confronted. A passive aggressive person is as much of an overbearing controller as the most aggressive, in-your-face person you could imagine -- only they do it insidiously and underhandedly.

You Resort to Smoke and Mirrors
Because you lack the courage to get real about what is driving the pain and problems in your relationship, you criticize your partner about one thing when you're really upset about another. What is real never gets voiced, and what gets voiced is never real. The real issues will eventually burst forth in a torrid way.

You Will Not Forgive
When you choose to bear anger at your partner, you trap yourself in pain and agony -- and the negative energy can crowd every other feeling out of your heart. If you wallow in resentment and refuse to forgive and move on, you will tear up your own life and your relationship. You can't change the past but you can deal with the resulting feelings and hurt by truly forgiving.

You Are the Bottomless Pit
Are you so needy that you constantly undermine your chances of success? Can you never get enough satisfaction, love, attention or appreciation? Your partner will be frustrated by never seeming able to "fill you up." We all want reassurance, but an insatiable appetite for it never gives your partner any rest. Free yourself from the internalized sense of inadequacy, and find other ways to feel your self-worth and value.

You're Too Comfortable
If you're in a comfort zone, you are failing to meet your responsibilities in the relationship. You aren't contributing, you aren't stimulating, and you aren't energizing. If you don't make a move, it becomes easier and easier to stagnate.


You've Given Up
When so many bad spirits crowd your life, you cannot imagine there being any way out. You become so forlorn, lonely, isolated, negative, cynical and far from your core of consciousness that you believe you are trapped. Be strong enough to confront your problems instead of giving up.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:31 PM
And what's this business of him telling you there's no one else? You should have called him on the facebook prowling RIGHT THEN and THERE... you KNOW he's prowling and he outright LIED to you and told you he WASN'T

Tell him as long as he lives in this home he stays off of facebook - its disrespectful to you and the entire family.

BOOM
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:33 PM
If you want me to tally up your H's bad spirit contributions I can do that too.. in DETAIL

You don't want a repeat of last weekend. If he is going to do the homework and continue with the program its a sincere effort, not someone going through the motions to humour YOU. He has to WANT to work things out... that's the first step. It doenst' have to be 100% enthusiasm, even 5% is enough... But if he is giong to work on this while prowling facebook for old girlfriends in secret tell him no deal.

Relationship Rescue helped me out a lot. I would buy that book for him, and there is a workbook with exercises to accompany it too. Turn him into a Dr Phil fan. lol

lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 12:40 PM
I am putting a script together to help you confront him on the facebook stuff.. give me an hour or so... I have to get into work first
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
And what's this business of him telling you there's no one else? You should have called him on the facebook prowling RIGHT THEN and THERE... you KNOW he's prowling and he outright LIED to you and told you he WASN'T

Tell him as long as he lives in this home he stays off of facebook - its disrespectful to you and the entire family.

BOOM


OH...I DID call him on it. I said that he may think he has done no wrong but even if he did not have a physical affair, all of his actions and behavior were destructive. I mentioned the facebook trolling, the text message, the talking to other people about our relationship - both male and female - the hiding the phone, even about me suspecting he purchased a background check. I called him on all of it. That's when he said that the things he had done were as a result of my bad behaviors and his ill feelings towards me. I said these things were devastating. He said that HE had been devastated by all my bad spending the last few years - that he is financially devastated... So, instead of looking at what he did, he wanted to go back to what I've done. He said that someone can quit having an affair but you can't get money back someone has burned... I said, "You don't think there aren't scars that last forever when someone has cheated on you? You don't think I don't remember the emails you wrote professing your love to another woman 13 years ago? You don't think I don't have scars from you having left me with 2 small children and that it was not harmful to them at the time?" (He also claimed that what I had done had hurt the entire family - that the things he's done only hurt me.)

SO, yes, I called him on it. He claims that he is not doing any of these things now but still wants out - so that's proof that "the love is gone".

And yes - after all of this he said handing over the phone, etc... was not a problem.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Seeing Red
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Bottom line here? He wants out but doesn't want to actually have to leave and deal with the consequences.


That IS a problem!

Because unless he can split in two and be both a good husband and a walk away husband, he's going to have to make a choice.

Good job, Sunny! Now you both know where you stand.


Yeah - it's not a pretty place, but this limbo business is no place to be! That's where the problem lies. He doesn't want to have to make a decision and I am forcing it. He says in one breath that his mind is already made up - that he doesn't think this is going to work, that he just wants out and for us to still have a good relationship with the kids. Then, when I tell him to go - he doesn't want to go! So, he is conflicted.

Now, some would argue that the best thing would be for me to "give him what he wants" and for him to realize it isn't what he wants. In other words, to "be friends". I started that whole friends thread because of the 2 different philosophies. MWD even seems to advocate being friends. Several of us just thought her friendship story on this site was to get people to see hope. However, I read someone else's post last week saying they talked with a DB coach and the coach advocated friendship as well. I am confused because I can see both sides. A: Be "friends" - detach - let go - but garner your self-respect. By being their friend yet not putting up with their crud anymore you simulateously provide the release of the trap door they feel but make yourself a good choice still. B: DON'T be their friend because that makes it easy on their conscience. It allows cake-eating. Cake eating allows indecision to continue and the state of limbo.

I tend to side with B, esp. in my case.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
If you want me to tally up your H's bad spirit contributions I can do that too.. in DETAIL

You don't want a repeat of last weekend. If he is going to do the homework and continue with the program its a sincere effort, not someone going through the motions to humour YOU. He has to WANT to work things out... that's the first step. It doenst' have to be 100% enthusiasm, even 5% is enough... But if he is giong to work on this while prowling facebook for old girlfriends in secret tell him no deal.

Relationship Rescue helped me out a lot. I would buy that book for him, and there is a workbook with exercises to accompany it too. Turn him into a Dr Phil fan. lol

lol


That would be awesome! I've read parts of RR but never the whole thing. The question is, how on earth do I get H to read it? If he's not truly interested in saving the marriage, why would he read the book? I believe there's a 5% interest, but that seems to be it. Since he is still in this mindset that he has no redeeming feelings left for me - he has no motivation to do the necessary work. Believe me, we were given a ton of R tools and reasons why feelings aren't there, etc... this past weekend. He is overlooking ALL of that information right now and choosing to stay in this negative mindset. Of course, maybe the way Dr. Phil presents it could spark something different in him. Who knows.

I agree that if he is going to be in the home that these behaviors can't be present and told him so last night - for this week that he he wanted. I just didn't mention the FB (et al) discussion in my earlier post because it was already long and I was trying to keep it as short as I could. However...I still wouldn't mind the script because it's likely to pop back up!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just tell him the following :

a. If you are going to continue to keep your negative attitude then go... I don't want to do this work with someone who is choosing to be miserable.
b. This isnt' clinical depression on your part, you don't have any genetic chemical imbalance in your brain you just want to be negative
c. I won't expose that cynicism to these kids any longer

What you told him was quite good, the only part of it I would take out is that you respect his decision - you don't - so why lie to him and make him feel good about leaving?

Be very careful here. He does not want to leave and he may try to lead you on in order to stay in the home - he KNOWS it will cost more for him to live elsewhere.

The key point in fighting this is to make it DIFFICULT for him to leave. Part of MWD is to make it inviting to stay, which helps, but you also need to make leaving unpleasant for him too. No begging or yelling, but hit him in the groin by telling him by walking out that door he is no longer a man.

Have you read Relationship Rescue by Phil McGraw?

95% of his problems are addressed in detail very early on in that book.

McGraw lists ten "bad spirits" that people take on that contaminate a marriage - your husband is using them daily on you and he thinks its constructive. That text should put a stop to it very quickly :



OK. This is good – all of it. He thinks that by staying home, I am the only one “suffering” but that it’s better for him, and for the kids.

I didn’t mean “respect” his decision – I just meant more “accept” his decision. I will watch that wording more carefully in the future – good point. I DON’T respect it!

As for the next parts – this is where it gets tricky. Yes, I believe he will try to lead me on in order to stay. SO, then for the next paragraph – wanting to make it unpleasant for him to leave – am I not wanting him to stay? I get that I don’t want him to stay and continue his bad behavior and lack of commitment… but this is hard for me to grasp: If he’s in the home it makes it easier to work on R. However, in order to get him to want to work on R, making him leave may be the only way to get him to see the light and want to work on it!

I see many of the bad spirits at play. The thing is, H doesn’t appear willing to see his any of this. He’s acting out of his feelings, not reason. How do I get him to listen to reason?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 01:56 PM
One last thing for now: Would it be a good idea to email H this list of Dr. Phil's? I could say I found it insightful - that we are both some of these things right now - if we are going to "do the homework" then looking at different perspectives is helpful.

???
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 03:36 PM
Quick update: Talked to S14 for a bit. It wasn't easy and I wish he could see things better. He is so much like his dad - so analytical - I know he really identifies with his dad. I had to be extremely careful to be diplomatic with him and explain I am not asking that he chose sides. He even made the comment that there is 2 sides to every story...making sure I knew he would consider dad's side as well, I figure. I explained that I didn't want him to take sides but to be on the side "of the family" and for what's right. He's not an emotional kid - he doesn't get the pain and anguish part of all this. He was very uncomfortable about talking about it. I told him I just wanted him to be prepared. Said if H talks to him about this stuff I would hope he would express that he wants his family together, not apart, and that it would upset him if H leaves.

I hope parts of it got through.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 04:34 PM
Yup...

OK there's a lot for me to comment on... I will just wing it since I am supposed to be working... lol

Long term, I don't think its constructive to be talking about your marrige with your kids in secret. Once to prepare them is ok, but long term I think the goal should be to gather together WITH your H there to talk in group.

The risk with you talking to them all privately is that your H can do the same and you don't know what crap he's selling them.

I am not suggesting you fight in front of them, but I hope this scenario of you gonig to tell them ONE thing and him telling them another in secret isn't going to become a regular thing.

I am on side with your approach so far, that's just a warning that I see your H taking this too far... I think that should be cut off pretty soon now that everyone is in the loop - no private chats with the kids about the family...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 04:46 PM
How do you get him to listen to reason?

Pup said this yesterday : 10% of what you throw at them sinks in. So, while your efforts and truth darts and good exampls may appear in vain they aren't... Tiny Tiny steps are made in your favour when you attempt to educate a wayward spouse.

He's not in an affair I don't think... Otherwise I would say its only 1% that sinks in if you are lucky.

I think You need to write down some boundaries and expectations and make them known :

a. If he lives here, he does his homework and makes a sincere effort
b. If he leaves, you two will be pursuing divorce - no friendship will follow
c. No trolling facebook for alternatives/parachutes - I heard it called "lifeboating" once which I think is the best characterization
d. No talking to friends and family about marital problems in secret
e. No hiding of cell phones
f. No internet activity that risks harming any family member - even what they don't know CAN HURT THEM

etc...

This is a contract of sorts you two would both be accountable for if you choose to allow him to stay

I think It's also important Sunny that you word things as forcefully as possible here...

He doesn't know how to drive a marriage. If you put him behind the wheel this is giong right into a ditch... Don't leave it up to HIM to leave or to stay. You say it like "If you are going to participate in this marriage you are welcome to stay, otherwise lets pack your things and you can go now."

It gives him only two choices

work
get out

THAT is I think the best way to handle him.. if you wait for him to make choices and put firm sticks in teh sand he won't... he's going to obfuscate like almost EVERY wayward does... he's going tos ay he's trying, but he's not, he's going to stay there, and then not, etc... He will be all over hte place if you allow it.

Phil McGraw makes a very important part in RR - "You teach people how to treat you. You allow people to treat you badly."

if you throw him lines like

"Are you going to stay?" It gives him teh steering wheel. If you say "You are welcome to stay if you are willing to do the work" then he's forced to cooperate

Wording and intonation is very important.

There are more boundaries you have to set. That list of bad spirits can be a good start :

a. No drudging up the past - wasted money or affairs - both of you get a clean slate
b. No score keeping - You both contribute 100% to the home - salary or no salary
c. No secret-keeping - Smoke and Mirrors belong on the stage - you aren't David Copperfied so don't waste my time

etc
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 04:50 PM
The first thing your H needs to learn how to do and practice regularly is to express things as a positive

Negative : "You don't make enough money"
Positive : "I would enjoy it if the household had more income - how can I help?"

etc

Another point of him staying is FT. You could push for that. Tell him outright that if he's going to stay and explore repairing the damage you BOTH have done that he should be going to FT once a week.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 04:55 PM
You really are just putting a program for the household together that you BOTH will follow.

It's important that when you express things you get this point in :


I am not asking you to do anything I am not doing.


If he brings up salary cut him off right away.

We put me in this position of being financially dependent on you. If you think I enjoy this you are mistaken. We drove the marriage where it is now. I am a working at home mother of three and you are a working at x father. We both contribute. We both are working to increase income in this household. BOTH of us are doing that... GOT IT?


Whenever he brings up the past :


We have both contributed to the mistakes in this marriage and how it has arrived here. I am willing to do the work to clean up my 50% of this. You get a clean slate and a chance to clean up your 50%.. That is my gift to you. If you don't want that gift you know where the door is - lets pack your things up.


Kick all his bad spirits in the groin when they rear their ugly head...

You are basically rreading him the bad spirits list AND applying it for him when you do this...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 04:59 PM
If you notice I am using a lot of

We

50%

Us

You know where the door is

This is deliberate

That's basically marriage

We, Us, 50-50, or THE DOOR
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 05:02 PM
If you can record some of your exchanges with him and listen to them after the fact it helps.

Like when he mentions money waste hurts everyone and you counter with affairs hurt everyone...

You could say


WE have brought this marriage where it is now. WE are doing what WE can do rebuild it and strengthen it. BOTH of us made the mess and both of us can clean it up. YOU have a chance to participate in this family to strengthen it or you know where the door is. You want to walk out the door and leave this family to clean up your share of this mess I am happy to help you pack - this household does NOT need any DEAD WEIGHT. Either you are part of the solution or you and your problems can find the door.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 05:04 PM
I know its tough to have him rant at you and not throw a bullet back but it does escalate the argument.


When anyone in this family gets hurt everyone knows about it and everyone feels it. This is a family and if you hurt one of us you hurt ALL of us.


If you want a practical example :


Are you telling me when some creep makes a commitment to your daughter, cheats on her, and then abaondons her you arne't going to feel hurt? You aren't going to feel violated? You won't feel absolute rage?

Infidelity of ANY kind devastes the ENTIRE HOME. There is NO PLACE for those selfish hurtful games in this house. If you want to hurt people you know where the door is. If you want to contribute as a member of this family then the games and deceit are left at the door.


You can get yoru point across, that's ok, but its important to FINISH UP with a marriage rebuild offer, a clean slate, and hold him 50% accountable for the rebuliding process.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 05:58 PM
Very good insights!

I see what you are saying about the kids/private chats. I KNOW he has had them with the kids...they've told me. You're right though - that needs to stop. The older 2 wanted to know how the weekend went, so I told them and forewarned them that he was going to be asked to leave if he could not commit to the M. They agreed.

I agree with everything you've said and you've definitely given me some good scripts to keep to! I felt I did a good job of conveying those types of things last night. I just have to stick to it. I guess I don't present these things until the week is up? Well, unless he brings it up.

I tried hard last night to not argue with him. It probably still seemed like I did at times because I disagree with his point of view, but it was never heated.

Getting him to move past blaming me for his mental state is key here and it just isn't happening thus far. That's what I'm trying to precipitate.

SO... my plan of action is to say nothing until the week is up unless he brings it up. This, of course, is contingent on him continuing to do the homework as assigned. If he is still on the fence in a week, I follow the above script: he either works on things or gets out. If he works on things and stays, I have my list of non-negotiable boundaries. If he leaves, he is choosing the path of D and it is on him - his decision.

In the meantime... Do I get him RR or send him the list? I don't think that was specifically addressed. Helpful or no?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 06:07 PM
I would jsut start using the RR spirits list in your scripts you throw at him...

That's where i got my truth darts was the work of the pros like Tupy and McGraw... my wife got hit with them regularly and it left her head spinning. She KNEW i had a point but was thinking "where the heck did that come from?"

I wasn't just challenging her, I was educating her as I challenged her and it was stuff she never heard from me before, or put so concisely.

You could jsut take the parental approach. Wait for his rant of blame to finish up and then ask him


Are you finished blaming everyone else for how you feel? Can I go to bed now? I have a lot of work to do all week long and this is exhausting.


or


Funny how our moods are our responsability, but when YOU feel miserable YOu aren't responsbile for that at all.

I feel pretty darn miserable right now too, but I am making appointments with family therapists and booking weekends to solve problems. I feel misrable, but I am OWNING how miserable I am and doing something about that WITHOUT hurting the famly in the process.

Can you do that? Repair how YOU feel without hurting everyone ELSE at the same time?

I can... Heck the DOG can manage that...



OK, you feel miserable, I feel miserable. We can do the work to start feeling better WITHIN the marriage or we can be childish and selfish and run away to a divorce lawyer... you want to be a child or an adult about this?


I like working with language so there's only two choices with one good and the other bad...

When you make it that clear cut they can't argue anymroe. They may not LIKE IT, but it does put an end to the argument.

Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 06:38 PM
I am wondering Sunny if your H follows sports at all?

I often try to explain a marriage like a sports team.

I would ask him point blank what managers do with bitter cynical players that refuse to show up for practice, won't participate in events, and are negative and threaten to quit whenever management tries to talk with them...

MOST of the time ball teams TOSS that dead weight OUT...

I think if your H likes sports I would start wording things that way... Most men like sports (I don't follow them, but i know a lot of men do) and he very likley knows how sports teams deal with dead weight like him...

It may start to hit home that he's not giving anywhere near 50%.

He can talk about his mood all he wants, but in the end its an excuse : You contribute your 100% or you get OUT and stop whining... If you want to bail then do it and do the walk of shame and own it...

etc
Posted By: bluestar Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 07:08 PM
You should read RR, Sunny. Don't wait for H to do it. You can apply the things in the book even without his cooperation. It was essential to me in DBing. It teaches you how to use the truth darts effectively. I was amazed how often I said things to my H and a few days/week later, he stated it as if it was his idea.

I walked the fine line of friends/accountability and it worked for me. I think you have a unique opportunity to employ RR's strategies and see what happens. At first you'll get a lot more negative responses than positive but eventually the balance tips.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I am wondering Sunny if your H follows sports at all?

I often try to explain a marriage like a sports team.

I would ask him point blank what managers do with bitter cynical players that refuse to show up for practice, won't participate in events, and are negative and threaten to quit whenever management tries to talk with them...

MOST of the time ball teams TOSS that dead weight OUT...

I think if your H likes sports I would start wording things that way... Most men like sports (I don't follow them, but i know a lot of men do) and he very likley knows how sports teams deal with dead weight like him...

It may start to hit home that he's not giving anywhere near 50%.

He can talk about his mood all he wants, but in the end its an excuse : You contribute your 100% or you get OUT and stop whining... If you want to bail then do it and do the walk of shame and own it...

etc






HUGE sports fan...as am I, actually. Great analogy!

FYI: Got a text from him awhile ago that said, "I have deleted my Myspace account and suspended Facebook." I waited 30 min. and replied, "OK. Thanks for that."

I wanted to say, "That's a nice gesture, but it doesn't solve the fact that you already have email addresses and phone #'s you need..." But I didn't. It's not the core issue of the day and I don't want to address that over text.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: bluestar
You should read RR, Sunny. Don't wait for H to do it. You can apply the things in the book even without his cooperation. It was essential to me in DBing. It teaches you how to use the truth darts effectively. I was amazed how often I said things to my H and a few days/week later, he stated it as if it was his idea.

I walked the fine line of friends/accountability and it worked for me. I think you have a unique opportunity to employ RR's strategies and see what happens. At first you'll get a lot more negative responses than positive but eventually the balance tips.


Thanks, Blue. I will go get it!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 08:25 PM
Just to add, Allen, I've been doing some of that with my psych knowledge of relationships, etc... but I hadn't particularly read RR or employed those techniques. My counselor had called the truth dart concept "planting seeds" and so I've been doing that some. The biggest difference is, you give me specifics I can use! :-)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 08:27 PM
Ugh... S16 just told me he is worried about S14 - that S14 is "siding with dad" and thinks I am trying to manipulate him to my side. I was SO very careful in what I said to him but not careful enough. He just doesn't get it. He is borderline Aspergers (a form of autism - not a lot of emotion/social empathy) so I knew it would be tough, esp. since he is so much like H and identifies with him greatly.

Now I have to try to undo that. I don't want any of the kids feeling I am manipulating them!!!
Posted By: bluestar Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 08:57 PM
You can't make your children "side" with you or your H. Don't even try. They are old enough to see what's going on and judge for themselves. Any attempt on your part to influence them will only backfire. Just keep doing what you know to be right for your family.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 09:11 PM
Originally Posted By: bluestar
You can't make your children "side" with you or your H. Don't even try. They are old enough to see what's going on and judge for themselves. Any attempt on your part to influence them will only backfire. Just keep doing what you know to be right for your family.


Oh, I didn't want any siding going on other than siding for the marriage! I was just trying to prepare S14 as I have done with the older 2 that things may be coming down the pike. I wanted him to not be blind-sided. H has already tried to discuss things with all 3 kids as to his side... I wanted some balance there. I wanted the 3 of them to know I am fighting for our family. I was totally respectful of H when talking to S14. I'm trying very hard to take the high road.

I spoke with S14 again and explained that I didn't want him to feel manipulated. I let him know I love H and just want our family intact - no siding.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 09:58 PM
This is the problem with the private meetings is that it LOOKS like you want your "side" taken.

If you read Relationship Rescue and start printing out Phil McGraw's truth darts and pasting them around the house in your work areas your H will start reading them I am sure...

Your H really should read McGraw, but you can tease him into it by leaving samples about in yoru work area for him to snoop at...

The first half is the most important part in my opinion.. McGraw is VERY good at concisesly directing you to the better.

We can work wtih you to come up with some truth darts and such the next time your H starts fingerpointing/fault finding

The point is to diffuse the argument while at the same time revealing the destructive behaviour your H's using and showing him a more constructive route to take... Three pronged attack... McGraw is pretty darn good at it.

We can trap you some videos of him tossing out the bullets too smile
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:01 PM
Your H throwing the olive branch of closing his accounts is a start.

What he really should have done is turn the passwords over to you.. When he closes it he is also covering his own tracks... He didn't just close the account to the outside world, he closed it to you too...

It's a positive overall, just be aware of the selfish attributes of the gesture so you don't get overwhelmed...

You may want to start putting a schedule/program/plan together for marriage rebuilding since it looks like he is folding his hands and willing to explore the program further.

He clearly doens't want to leave the comfort of his home and ante up for a second place of his own... all on his time..

You have a lot of leverage here right now Sunny even if you don't realize it.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:22 PM
This is pretty good too :


Dr. Phil's work with his newest Dr. Phil Family has taken a critical turn. Although Stacy and Chris have struggled with infidelity and parenting issues, Dr. Phil is convinced that an attitude adjustment could work wonders for bringing them to a new level of trust and commitment. Below is his advice on starting that process.



Healing starts from within.
Part of the problem in many relationships is that neither partner is willing to take ownership of their mistakes. Dr. Phil tells Chris and Stacy, "If you're going to heal a relationship in a family, it starts with you." He advises the couple to be introspective, and face the personal barriers that have prevented them from moving their marriage forward. Ask yourself: How do you contribute to or contaminate your relationship?


Face your control issues.
Dr. Phil tells Stacy that she damages her relationship with Chris because she feels the need to maintain a "death grip" on her marriage. He observed that her control issues stem from a need to protect herself so that she doesn't get hurt. "At times, that goes so far as, 'Get them before they get me,'" he explains. "Trust in others has so much to do with how much confidence and trust we have in ourselves." Often this includes letting go of the need for hypervigilance, and getting real about our fears.

Give yourself credit.
We've all had to deal with those negative inner voices that tell us we're not good enough, we'll never be loved or we're not entitled to happiness. He advised Stacy to stop doubting herself, and stay plugged into the positive things she has achieved in her marriage. Despite everything that she's been through in her life, Dr. Phil tells Stacy, "You need to give yourself credit for saying, 'I'm still here.'" Silencing those inner demons requires a change in your perspective.

Understand your history.
Many relationships are sabotaged when a partner brings in emotional baggage from past disappointments. In Stacy's case, Dr. Phil discovered that some of her trust issues stemmed from not having had a good relationship with her mother. "Everybody has a way of being in the world," he tells Stacy. "Yours is that you don't trust anybody." Recognize that personal barriers from the past may keep you from plugging in to your relationship.

Behave your way to success.
"There's a thin line between 'fake it 'til you make it,' and behaving your way to success," Dr. Phil points out. If you want confidence, you have to take on a confident posture. This can be as simple as putting more confidence in your walk and in your demeanor. If your issue is trust, put yourself in situations where you have to behave in a trusting manner. Real change comes from within.

What's your approach?
Dr. Phil reminds us that attitude is all about how you approach things in life. He asks, "Are you being open-minded? Are you considering the things that you may avoid out of fear?" He urges Stacy to take a different approach to communicating with her husband. Instead of yelling at her husband or testing him, Dr. Phil advises Stacy to give herself and her husband credit for their commitment to making the relationship work.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
This is the problem with the private meetings is that it LOOKS like you want your "side" taken.

If you read Relationship Rescue and start printing out Phil McGraw's truth darts and pasting them around the house in your work areas your H will start reading them I am sure...

Your H really should read McGraw, but you can tease him into it by leaving samples about in yoru work area for him to snoop at...

The first half is the most important part in my opinion.. McGraw is VERY good at concisesly directing you to the better.

We can work wtih you to come up with some truth darts and such the next time your H starts fingerpointing/fault finding

The point is to diffuse the argument while at the same time revealing the destructive behaviour your H's using and showing him a more constructive route to take... Three pronged attack... McGraw is pretty darn good at it.

We can trap you some videos of him tossing out the bullets too smile








NICE!!! I like seeing video that gives examples of how to be and not just reading general philosophies. Those have their place as well, of course, but practicals are what I need right now.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Your H throwing the olive branch of closing his accounts is a start.

What he really should have done is turn the passwords over to you.. When he closes it he is also covering his own tracks... He didn't just close the account to the outside world, he closed it to you too...

It's a positive overall, just be aware of the selfish attributes of the gesture so you don't get overwhelmed...

You may want to start putting a schedule/program/plan together for marriage rebuilding since it looks like he is folding his hands and willing to explore the program further.

He clearly doens't want to leave the comfort of his home and ante up for a second place of his own... all on his time..

You have a lot of leverage here right now Sunny even if you don't realize it.





Oh, I agree: it's A gesture but not THE gesture. I'm sure he will try to appease me to the point of not booting him out while not wanting to commit to the marriage either.

Here's the thing: I don't know what I'll do if he decides he is going to have a good attitude, do the "steps", stop doing the negative crap, but still only wants to "work on the R, not the M." That will leave me in quite the quandry... So, lets say he's at 5% commitment level to marriage but is willing to do FT, continue with the homework, turn over the phone/computer, etc... I guess I don't make him leave even if he still claims to "have no feelings for me"?????

I feel like that's where this is headed and I don't have a clear answer for it. Part of me says "No commitment to M - it's time to go." The other part says that the positive behaviors/work will persuade him towards commitment.

Thoughts?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37SHB_Njrek&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY8pDhtvMWw&NR=1

I will find the transcript for this one...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:38 PM
And boy does Stacy sound like me!! lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:44 PM
Whole show - I skimmed it and McGraw uses this one to highlight divorce and when to turn that route.. lots of good general points being made throughout the show...

All five parts on youtube in full - enjoy laugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YzqN-RLVBI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb5wnLpgkrU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6BF8wjaSPU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAO0fniatMM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7f4LvMRlbM&feature=related
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:56 PM
THis one's for humour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw3QZIBzMo&feature=related
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 10:58 PM
Thanks! Can't wait to watch them. I may start with the funny one. LOL
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/03/10 11:15 PM
I would do teh funny one last to help you deal with the long serious one... your call.. watch teh funny one first and again after the dr phil... that works too
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 12:54 AM
Short but sweet :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NBE-uvyNlk
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 02:23 AM
Got a huge assignment due in the morning for my class but I'll watch those tomorrow as soon as I can!

H and I did our homework which basically is 30 minutes of stress free conversation a day: 15 min. each to tell about our days, etc... During his 15 min. he mentioned checking into apt. pricing nearby. Then he added, "not that I've made a decision..." Of course, during this exercise you aren't supposed to comment back. You're just supposed to listen and validate. So, not much I could say to that. Did my heart go "thud" when he said it? Sure it did. I didn't let it show though.

He said S16 talked to him when he went to pick S16 up. He commented that S16 said "everything would be fine -he's not worried - it's in God's hands..." Ummm....S16 told me this morning he was totally pissed about all of it! I don't know why he didn't tell H that!

It just goes to your point, Allen, that these secret convos don't need to happen anymore. It makes me a little aggravated with S16 because he talks so tough with me yet not with his dad. I really wanted him to tell H how upset he would be - and how angry he was - yet instead, he ends up saying, "he knows everything will be fine." ??? Geez. That's why they're 16 though - they aren't adults and shouldn't be expected to act like adults or have to have adult conversations with their dads about leaving. Sigh.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 03:07 AM
Well, he needs to be told he can be honest with his father about his feelings... He just validated his father's exit and he doens't even realize it.

How is your H mentioning he's looking at apartments STRESS FREE?

I would tell him to keep any commentary about an exit to himself. It's abusive to hold an exit over someone's head like that and he needs to hear that from you.

Tell him waving the "I might leave, I might not" over your head he may as well wave a knife at teh whole family and to knock it off... Make a point that you aren't being mean or silencing him but you have to protect the kids from this kind of abuse...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 04:02 AM
True. Why didn't I think of that?!!!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 04:14 AM
I meant the knife-wielding part above… I guess it’s too late to go back and say something just to make that point but will keep that in my arsenal!

I felt the same about S16’s comments – so disappointing. I’m sure he didn’t even bring it up, H did. S16 probably just wanted to stay out of the line of fire and said whatever would get him out of the conversation quickest. Unfortunately, it wasn’t the right thing. I did tell H that S16 did not express those same feelings to me¬ – that he was hurt and angry…that I am the one that told him God would look out for us no matter what. H said, “Interesting… so he didn’t come up with that on his own.” I didn’t go into it any further as we were supposed to be doing our exercise. Yeah – I play by the rules, H does not!

I don’t even know why H mentioned the apt thing unless he is just trying to gain the upper hand again. Well, that and he’s totally running on emotion – canceling Facebook one minute looking for a way out the next. He’s just totally screwed up in the head.

I guess I need to go back to S16 but I really want to be done with all of that. I guess I can’t leave H alone with the kids at all, huh?!!!

Oh – H also mentioned that S16 said he would stay with me to “help me out”. SO… he’s already talking custody arrangements??? This man is all over the place.

I’m glad I had this big project to contend with. My mind is too busy on it to worry about H much and the crazy things he is saying. I am definitely going to tell him to knock it off if it comes up again! Maybe we need to implement a no-talking-to-kids rule. ???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:29 PM
I would tell your son a one line statement to help him exit the convo and reditect it to a healthy place and tell him that's to help him avoid getting hurt any further
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:35 PM
I think I read it on Phil McGraw's site in an article.. he described threats to leave as a drastic act of abuse...

I saw him in a video say it was worse to threaten to leave for years and NOT leave than to just walk out...

"They will have been half healed after three years... But you just keep threatening them and don't do it"

Something like that...

It is a horrible thing to do to people...

I would tell him to keep negative commentary to himself.

If he's "just looking" then its not info you need.. He's just being negative...

He needs support for how miserable he feels (I don't think he feels any worse than you do, but he's the wayward right now so to his mind the sun rises and sets on his moods) but he's using his kids since he won't talk to a family therapist... That's pretty damaging in my opinion.

I will see if I can find the comment about threatening to leave as being abuse on McGraw's site
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:44 PM
Yes, you are VERY right. I just didn't even look at it that way because I grew up being verbally/emotionally abused by my mother and I'm so used to different forms of that. I have to remember that there are other lines of respect to defend other than just outward actions: feelings, a sense of security, all of that. H doesn't get that of course. Well, obviously, since he didn't think the aftermath of an affair is as bad as the aftermath of poor spending habits...

Please, if you find that - share! That'd be awesome.

SO, later on when I get done with class, do you think I should email him and say something or just wait to see if it comes up again?

I did talk to S16 briefly last night and gently explained what was said. (He brought it up, actually.) He said he may write H a letter, as D18 did last week. I told him I did not want him caught in the middle. I just wanted support for the marriage if it came up again. I think you're very wise in suggesting I give each of the kids an "exit script" out of a conversation. Any ideas??? :-)
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:50 PM
Bingo - It was on McGraw - I bolded the item in question


Does your partner continuously degrade or belittle you? If you think that just because you aren't being physically abused nothing is wrong, think again.

Emotional abuse can have devastating consequences on both physical and mental health. While emotional or psychological abuse may be difficult to pinpoint, examples abound. Here are some characteristics:


Using economic power to control you


Threatening to leave


Making you afraid by using looks, gestures or actions


Smashing things


Controlling you through minimizing, denying and blaming


Making light of the abuse and not taking your concerns about it seriously


Continually criticizing you, calling you names, shouting at you


Emotionally degrading you in private, but acting charming in public


Humiliating you in private or public


Withholding approval, appreciation or affection as punishment

Results of Verbal and Emotional Abuse, from the Center for Relationship Abuse Awareness:

A distrust of her spontaneity
A loss of enthusiasm
An uncertainty about how she is coming across
A concern that something is wrong with her
An inclination to reviewing incidents with the hopes of determining what went wrong
A loss of self-confidence
A growing self-doubt
An internalized critical voice
A concern that she isn’t happier and ought to be
An anxiety or fear of being crazy
A sense that time is passing and she’s missing something
A desire not to be the way she is, e.g. “too sensitive,” etc.
A hesitancy to accept her perceptions
A reluctance to come to conclusions
A tendency to live in the future, e.g. “Everything will be great when/after …”
A desire to escape or run away
A distrust of future relationships
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:50 PM
Here's the url if you want the full reference for any reason :

http://drphil.com/articles/article/21
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:56 PM
An exit script?


Dad, I am not qualified to offer you advice on this matter. What I CAN tell you is that you divorcing this family would devastate me. Please continue the family therapy and the program(s) you are on and give 100% into saving this family. We all love you and need to keep together.


That's a rough draft.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:57 PM
More on abuse from Dr Phil :


An emotionally abusive marriage consists of a victim and an abuser. Dr. Phil has something to say to both.

The Abuser


Have you thought about how your actions truly affect your partner? Even when you stop the abuse, the pain continues because you've trampled on your loved one's heart and spirit.


Dr. Phil defines an abuser as both a coward and a bully. You choose to abuse where it is safe, in a place where you feel loved and protected. Would you do it in the workplace where you might get fired or in a social situation where others might get insulted?


You need to understand that respect is commanded, not demanded. If you think degrading and belittling your partner commands respect, you're wrong. You are simply demanding by imposing fear.


All abusers have excuses, says Dr. Phil. While the excuses vary, one principle remains: You are abusing instead of being constructive.


If you want to recover — for yourself and your partner — you need to tell yourself: "I'm not going to take this from me anymore." Sit down with your partner, look into his/her eyes, and apologize for the wounds you've inflicted over time.


Healing is a process. Rescuing your relationship will take patience and persistence.



The Victim


Take responsibility. You have played a role in setting up the relationship this way, and you must play a role in changing it. Telling your partner that the treatment is unacceptable is not enough. Your actions speak louder than words, so you need to make two bold moves: Change your own routine or behavior, and tell your partner you will no longer take the abuse.


Dr. Phil refers to a saying: "There are no victims, only volunteers." Don't go along to get along. Peace at any price is no peace at all.


Relationships are always up for renegotiation. You need to sit down with your partner, look him/her in the eyes, and tell him/her that you are taking a stand. You will not stay in the relationship if the abuse continues. From there, begin to negotiate. Figure out how both of you can take strides to make the marriage work.


Watch yourself to make sure you don't fall back into the victim role.


ref : http://drphil.com/articles/article/19/
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:57 PM
The scary thing is Sunny is that he's not just threatening you he's threatening the kids with his "I wanna leave" talk too
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:58 PM
What kind of financial mismanagement in teh history are we talking about here?

Any idea how much $ total?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 01:59 PM
An article on fighting fair :


How you argue — especially how you end an argument — can determine the long-term success or failure of your relationship.

A primary requirement for any fight is to maintain control. You do not have the license to be childish, abusive or immature. If you have legitimate feelings, you are entitled to give a reasonable voice to those feelings in a constructive way. (That includes not being self-righteous or taking yourself too seriously.)

"Disagreements are going to occur," says Dr. Phil. "The question is, do you go into it with a spirit of looking for resolution or do you go into it with a spirit of getting even, vengeance, control? You'll never win if you do that. If you make your relationship a competition, that means your spouse has to lose in order for you to win. It's not a competition, it's a partnership."

Here are Dr. Phil's specific rules for fighting fair.


Take it private and keep it private.
Fighting in front of your children is nothing short of child abuse. It can and will scar them emotionally — all because you don't have the self-control to contain yourself until you can talk privately.


Keep it relevant.
Don't bring up old grudges or sore points when they don't belong in a particular argument. Put boundaries around the subject matter so that a fight doesn't deteriorate into a free-for-all.


Keep it real.
Deal with the issue at hand, not with a symptom of the problem. Get real about what is bothering you, or you will come away from the exchange even more frustrated.


Avoid character assassination.
Stay focused on the issue, rather than deteriorating to the point of attacking your partner personally. Don't let the fight degenerate into name-calling.


Remain task-oriented.
Know what you want going into the disagreement. If you don't have a goal in mind, you won't know when you've achieved it.


Allow for your partner to retreat with dignity.
How an argument ends is crucial. Recognize when an olive branch is being extended to you — perhaps in the form of an apology or a joke — and give your partner a face-saving way out of the disagreement.


Be proportional in your intensity.
Every single thing you disagree about is not an earth-shattering event or issue. You do not have to get mad every time you have a right to be.


There's a time limit.
Arguments should be temporary, so don't let them get out of hand. Don't allow the ugliness of an argument to stretch on indefinitely.


ref : http://drphil.com/articles/article/20
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:20 PM
LOTS of great stuff here! I'm going to print out a lot of it to have.

It IS terrible that he is keeping this over all of our heads and going to the kids for validation of his actions. I'm not sure why that didn't hit me harder previously than now!

LOVE the script. Will discuss it with the kids.

It's so hard: I keep thinking he is going to come to his senses and yet, every time he appears to do so, he counteracts it with something else that says "not"! Take yesterday: out of the blue texting me about getting rid of Facebook. Then he turns around and tells me that he was apt hunting last night. Who does this stuff to a person??? Emotionally immature, selfish people in WAS mode, of course. But why?! Why have they got to be so cruel?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
What kind of financial mismanagement in teh history are we talking about here?

Any idea how much $ total?


It varies greatly whether you ask him or you look at the facts. To hear him talk, I've thrown away thousands and thousands of dollars... ran us into the ground. The facts are, it takes a lot more money to raise a family to the standard of living we have than what he realizes. Even the FT said he was totally unrealistic in this. Now: have I not managed money well and could've spent less on the kids? Absolutely. At the same time, H has taken NO responsibility financially either. H has always had full access to just about every dime I spend and that he spends and where it is going. He doesn't manage money well either yet us not having a big bank account is all my fault. I have 2 credit cards in my name that he does not have full access to, yet I have provided him with all that information. The credit limit on each? $300.00. BIG money, right??? Hardly. I don't even use them very often. It's just nice to have something in my name that I can purchase gifts with or whatever. So, yes, I totally admit my part in the financial irresponsibility but I don't see where he can say it's all me when he's always had access to knowledge of everything.

Well - I DO see it: it's that HE doesn't want to own up to his part. He claims he didn't say anything because I just wanted my way. Isn't his responsibility to still be a man???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:30 PM
They arne't trying to be cruel, its more just them being self involved

I think the most important thing to say to him is


DO you think you are the ONLY person who is unhappy here?

There is a difference between us, but its not you being more unhappy than I am.. It's how YOU are handling it and how I am handling it. I am working to improve things here while you are walking in two directions at once and worse you are threatening our children... While I have to run damage control to settle them down.

If you are going to leave, then leave, I would rather have this abuse OUT of our children's lives than have to stomach it every day. I would PREFER we worked TOGETHER as a couple to offer a better home for ourselves and our kids. But your idea of making things better is destroying them instead. And worse you try to make a false show of cooperating with your family while you are sabotaging your marriage in the background.

If you are HERE.. then BE HERE... 100%. You dont have to be happy right now, neither of us are.. But being here 50% and apartment hunting 50% isn't going to fly and you KNOW it.

Things get better when you WORK on them 100%... You can't pour water on a fire and then toss more gasoline on it by announcing you are apartment hunting...

If you actually find the courage to work with your family then do it, but do it 100% without background sabotage and abuse or don't bother.


Sorry, it came out mroe as a rant.. lol

the main thing is him being there 100%. He isn't, he's there 50% and out teh door the other 50%.

Q: You said he doenst contact his family at all? I assume that's by his choice? He ran out on them too is that right?
Posted By: Seeing Red Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:32 PM
It's shocking what they say and do sometimes, Sunny - cut you to the quick and then rub salt in the wound.

We've all made mistakes in our marriage, we've all said and done stupid things that hurt our partners - but usually NOT deliberately. That they treat us with such cruelty and thoughtlessness in return sometimes is jaw-dropping. They wouldn't treat a stranger the way they treat someone they professed to love once upon a time...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Seeing Red
It's shocking what they say and do sometimes, Sunny - cut you to the quick and then rub salt in the wound.

We've all made mistakes in our marriage, we've all said and done stupid things that hurt our partners - but usually NOT deliberately. That they treat us with such cruelty and thoughtlessness in return sometimes is jaw-dropping. They wouldn't treat a stranger the way they treat someone they professed to love once upon a time...


Exactly! Talking to H though you would think I have deliberately destroyed him. Oh, but anything he's ever done isn't really "all that bad". Crazy, huh?!!!! Esp. if you remember he once left me with 2 small children...and 3 years later had a cyber-affair! But my spending "too much" or wanting things a certain way is totally unforgivable! Right.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:42 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD

Well - I DO see it: it's that HE doesn't want to own up to his part. He claims he didn't say anything because I just wanted my way. Isn't his responsibility to still be a man???


Next time he attacks you for financial mismanagement :


I am willing to accept accountability for 50% of our financial situation. No more and no less. YOU spend money just as I do. We BOTH work, not just YOU. The only differnce is I don't get PAID to raise YOUR KIDS... I have to do THAT with NO FINANCIAL gratitude at ALL.

If you can come up with some actual FACTS showing how I mismanaged things while you were careful with spending I would be happy to read it and own it... But wreckless fingerpointing is just tantamount to abuse.

If you want to start practicing spousal abouse you know where the door is.

I will not stand here and be attacked like this. OWN your HISTORY just like I AM. STOP BLAMING OTHERS and WORK on the PROBLEM. And running away to an apartment isnt working, its cowardly and selfish... you are just leaving your family to deal with the probelm that you ran away from.

Very classy
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
They arne't trying to be cruel, its more just them being self involved

I think the most important thing to say to him is


DO you think you are the ONLY person who is unhappy here?

There is a difference between us, but its not you being more unhappy than I am.. It's how YOU are handling it and how I am handling it. I am working to improve things here while you are walking in two directions at once and worse you are threatening our children... While I have to run damage control to settle them down.

If you are going to leave, then leave, I would rather have this abuse OUT of our children's lives than have to stomach it every day. I would PREFER we worked TOGETHER as a couple to offer a better home for ourselves and our kids. But your idea of making things better is destroying them instead. And worse you try to make a false show of cooperating with your family while you are sabotaging your marriage in the background.

If you are HERE.. then BE HERE... 100%. You dont have to be happy right now, neither of us are.. But being here 50% and apartment hunting 50% isn't going to fly and you KNOW it.

Things get better when you WORK on them 100%... You can't pour water on a fire and then toss more gasoline on it by announcing you are apartment hunting...

If you actually find the courage to work with your family then do it, but do it 100% without background sabotage and abuse or don't bother.


Sorry, it came out mroe as a rant.. lol

the main thing is him being there 100%. He isn't, he's there 50% and out teh door the other 50%.

Q: You said he doenst contact his family at all? I assume that's by his choice? He ran out on them too is that right?


I like the rant!!!! Works for me! Although, I'm not sure when to use it.

As for the family: he talks with his sister some and his mom occasionally. He and his dad do not speak. I wouldn't say it's by his choice but his dad is quite the jerk. (And guess who H is acting like?!) His whole family has a history of cutting and running: his mom on his biological dad, on his adopted dad, and his stepdad on him, his mom, and sister. Yes, confusing: he has a 3 'dads' none of whom are in his life. His mom doesn't dislike me or anything, but she is so self involved that she doesn't even bother getting to know our children: no bday cards, Christmas, didn't even get a graduation card for D18 from her. So - not a lot of family attachments here.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:48 PM
I would just ask him for specifics


What financial mistakes have I made specifically? If what you MEAN to say but can't summon anything other than abuse to communicate is that money got wasted I agree with you. But I will not stand here and accept blame by YOU.

Find the specifics and bring them to me or stop BLAMING and OWN your own your families finances. I can point at a dozen things you bought that I didn't agree with.

The difference here is I am not villifying you for spending money. I don't think BLAMING you will bring the money back either... It just HURTS people when you BLAME.. So STOP it.


I dunno, stuff like that...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:49 PM
Nice job on the financial management script... That will help me A LOT because he uses this as his main cause of "having no feelings" for me: I devastated his life and the family... he is ruined because of me... NO responsibility for self.

I don't know if he will actually hear any of it: maybe that 10% we were talking about will get through. I've already told him he needs to own up to his part: he refuses - or says it doesn't matter.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I would just ask him for specifics


What financial mistakes have I made specifically? If what you MEAN to say but can't summon anything other than abuse to communicate is that money got wasted I agree with you. But I will not stand here and accept blame by YOU.

Find the specifics and bring them to me or stop BLAMING and OWN your own your families finances. I can point at a dozen things you bought that I didn't agree with.

The difference here is I am not villifying you for spending money. I don't think BLAMING you will bring the money back either... It just HURTS people when you BLAME.. So STOP it.


I dunno, stuff like that...


That's just it: he doesn't care that it hurts. In his mind, it SHOULD hurt - I SHOULD hurt! He is wanting to blame me for all of his unhappiness and discontent with his life and not look at himself. MLC even though he won't admit it.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 06:56 PM
Just keep working on the scripts..

I dont know if you have read up on "blame culture", but it plagues the home as much as it does the business environment.

Creating an environment/culture of fingerpointing just demoralizes everyone and creates panic and fear. It isn't a constructive solution to problem-solving.

Businesses that resort to blame and finger pointing suffer financiall ironically enough.. there are stats to prove it.

Businesses that identifiy problems quickly and act to rectify them without harming their workforce recover from problems much more efficiently.

Ironically his blaming is actually OVER wasted money lol

Has it ever occured to him that blaming you reduces YOUR motivation to go to school and secure employment? Has it ever occured to him that blaming you doens't RECOVER the money that was lost? Has it ever occured to him that BLAMING you and running away will COST MORE because in that scenario he has to pay for TWO homes instead of one?

His current strategy makes no financial sense whatsoever... and any halwway decent business manager would just fire him for blatant mismanagement of finances and staff.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD

That's just it: he doesn't care that it hurts. In his mind, it SHOULD hurt - I SHOULD hurt! He is wanting to blame me for all of his unhappiness and discontent with his life and not look at himself. MLC even though he won't admit it.


Well, MWD would tell you that he's just sharing his hurt because he donest know how to change things for the better... he's crying out in the only way he can.

He feels hurt and angry, but guess what... SO do you. He's in a rut and he is just giong to dig a big miserable hole fo rhimself... And it will get so deep he will need an affair or a bottle of alcohol to dig him one so deep he can't even see the sunlight anymore...

I would tell him to take the engergy he's using to blame you and direct it into something constructive instead.

How does he feel about being abandoned by his family when he was younger?

WHy doens't he talk to his father?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:03 PM
I know - that's the crazy part - that he rationalizes all his behavior even though what he is proposing solves NOTHING. Divorce will be MORE costly - 2 homes - doesn't get the money back - all of what you've said I've told him and he still doesn't care.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:04 PM
And yes - he blames everyone else for everything. That's not a new behavior, actually. He's always been this way.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Originally Posted By: SunnyD

That's just it: he doesn't care that it hurts. In his mind, it SHOULD hurt - I SHOULD hurt! He is wanting to blame me for all of his unhappiness and discontent with his life and not look at himself. MLC even though he won't admit it.


Well, MWD would tell you that he's just sharing his hurt because he donest know how to change things for the better... he's crying out in the only way he can.

He feels hurt and angry, but guess what... SO do you. He's in a rut and he is just giong to dig a big miserable hole fo rhimself... And it will get so deep he will need an affair or a bottle of alcohol to dig him one so deep he can't even see the sunlight anymore...

I would tell him to take the engergy he's using to blame you and direct it into something constructive instead.

How does he feel about being abandoned by his family when he was younger?

WHy doens't he talk to his father?


Yeah - I can see that but how on earth to get him out of that mindset is the big question! Yeah - he's hurt and angry, but his way of coping is not healthy at all - not for his family and not even for him though he doesn't see that.

He acts like it is no big deal that he was abandoned...that he's "fine" even though he never got help.

Stupidly enough, he and his father got into it over politics and now don't speak. SOOO stupid.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:20 PM
He has abandonment issues bigtime.. he can't make commitment and runs at the first sign of conflict.. how is that "fine"? lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:21 PM
That's what I would like to know!!!

He needs big time therapy! He really does.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:25 PM
I would write up a cost estimate for a divorce and one year's living expenses independently

Then show it to him and say "and you think I wasted money? You need to look at what you are takling about doing a bit more carefully."

And walk away
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:28 PM
Q : Are all your H's expenses traceable or does he usually use cash to purchase things?

I would just start bookeeping all the expenses and produce a report showing him where things are going... and just tell him "These are the facts... If you want to discuss THOSE I am happy to do so... and that took me x hours to do... and I didn't BLAME anyone while I was doing it. Next time you are worried about finances direct your energy into something construtive instead of making people feel like crap."

And walk away

I am pretty good with bookeeping and stuff if you have wrough data you want organized... I don't mind helping you get that together for him



Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:28 PM
hmmm. good idea.

Although, now he is basing everything on emotions and not practicalities... so yeah....he's all over the place!

See, NOW it's not about the money. It's about how his feelings for me are depleted because of the wasted money and me being depressed...and you know... we had SO many years of unhappiness... Uh, huh.. right. Rewriting history, of course.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:32 PM
OK, once he veers away from facts and starts talking about his feelings you go back to DR

Ignore all his negative protests and 100% of what he says etc...

pp 139 to 140 of DR to be exact.. those are two of the most important pages in the whole book...

Once he starts talking about how miserable he is just exit that and pay it no mind.

Whenever i have to talk about money with my wife I put a financial statement together. And I encourage her to use a cc for every purchase so we know where the money si going... And we both know the passwords to each others' accounts.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:47 PM
More from McGraw :


It's this simple: Money can ruin your marriage. In fact, it's the number one problem in marriages, and the number one cause of divorce.

People often underestimate the commitment in merging two lives together. The reason we fight most about money is because it's the most measurable. Sure, compromises also need to be made when it comes to issues of time, space and affection, but with money the give and take is quantifiable.

Dr. Phil has advice for developing and keeping marital and financial harmony.

Relationships are mutually defined. Each partner needs to be comfortable with any guidelines you set. Don't build resentment if you've agreed to it.
Everyone should have some financial freedom. Whether $5 or $500, discretionary income is a must for any partnership. If you want to run it through a shredder, it ought to be your right to do so. Having your own money helps you feel like you haven't given yourself up in order to be part of a relationship.
While financial independence is important, it must be balanced with accountability. Don't hide your spending habits from your spouse. Live within the boundaries you set. Consult your spouse before purchasing big-ticket items.
Don't live a fairytale! Get real about how much money you have. Set a realistic budget and financial goals. Don't justify purchasing something you can't afford.
Emotional problems can't be solved with money. Take a hard look at what's really behind your spending habits.
Don't let yourself get taken advantage of. Are you working 80 hours a week just so your spouse can live beyond your means? That's not being a partner; that's being a paycheck, and it won't fix the problem.
Negotiate, and then renegotiate when necessary. You made these life decisions together, and you can change them together.
Educate yourself. Marriage is a partnership, and both individuals need to be well-informed. Many problems — especially when it comes to money — stem from lack of knowledge.
When a financial issue comes up, ask yourself: Is it really a money problem or is it a relationship problem?
Money should not be used as a weapon against your partner.
Joint vs. Separate Accounts: Dr. Phil suggests separate accounts, because it's important to have independence and your own discretionary money.


I am wondering though if the money isn't just a "smokescreen" for his commitment issues... he may be sending you on a goose chase I think...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 07:51 PM
The best thing to do when he shifts things into his emotions is to work from a sheet with facts on it...

I do this at work all the time, people are in a conference room and they all start "he said, she said" and talk in abstracts.

I get up and start writing facts on teh board and everyone shuts up and looks at the board in seconds...

People like to see what they are dealing with, it gives them some comfort and settles their nerves...

I suspect the fact that he's panicking is because he doesn't have a lot of visibility over his lifestyle, particularly finances... I take it he doens't do accounting for a living?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
The best thing to do when he shifts things into his emotions is to work from a sheet with facts on it...

I do this at work all the time, people are in a conference room and they all start "he said, she said" and talk in abstracts.

I get up and start writing facts on teh board and everyone shuts up and looks at the board in seconds...

People like to see what they are dealing with, it gives them some comfort and settles their nerves...

I suspect the fact that he's panicking is because he doesn't have a lot of visibility over his lifestyle, particularly finances... I take it he doens't do accounting for a living?


NO! Not at all. He's very analytical, which is surprising, but he's just as bad with money as I am. He's an engineer.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:13 PM
I am an engineer too, but I can do bookeeping like a pro... lol

Does he have any of the finances managed at all or is it all just happening without any record of anything taking place?

Can he pull up a monthly report of income vs expenses etc?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:17 PM
And yes, while I feel the money stuff is an issue - I can identify several of those statements above as being issues with H and I, it is definitely a smokescreen. The biggest problem I see is, if there is an issue, instead of addressing it head on, it is internalized and he runs outside the marriage to fix it, in whatever way. We don't solve things together. I get depressed and he looks for other things to make him happy. Now that we've learned all of this, however, through the weekend deal - he still refuses to fix it! To him, he still feels nothing for me and therefore, doesn't want to resolve these problems, just wants to move on.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:20 PM
He feels something for you he's just 99% fixated on how miserable he feels.. addicts do this all teh time.. They concentrate their mind on one thing and they convince themselves tehy don't have any other emotions...

They are ignoring their emotions is all...

I wouldn't take it personally.. when people get miserable they just can't think straight and they let it take them over.

I would just start managing finances so he can see where everything's going and he can't point fingers.. its a good habit to start doing anyways... Despite how irritating the motivator.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:26 PM
Isn't that the truth!

I've been working on the budget and trying to assess how much we really spend on things vs how much we think we spend on things.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:37 PM
Well, if you use cash, forget it, you can't manage it... If you use cc that's the best.. debit tends to not keep enough detail relative to cc

CC also helps you keep in budget for the month.. you set your credit limit to just a bit over your budget and charge all of your expenses to your cc... then at the end of the month you download the charges to a spreadsheet or whatever sw tool and then you know what's gonig on
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Well, if you use cash, forget it, you can't manage it... If you use cc that's the best.. debit tends to not keep enough detail relative to cc

CC also helps you keep in budget for the month.. you set your credit limit to just a bit over your budget and charge all of your expenses to your cc... then at the end of the month you download the charges to a spreadsheet or whatever sw tool and then you know what's gonig on


OK: That's helpful! Good suggestion.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:41 PM
Has he mentioned anything else that he identifies as a problem? The home cluttered or anything?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:45 PM
I think if you look at the McGraw article on managing money thre's good tips in there too... particularly about having a limit on purchases that cost a lot... like big screen TV's... any large item purchases has to fall into the budget and be discussed as a team.. etc

If you put a plan together lke that it may help too...

If he's a half decent engineer he will appreciate structure and support you on it
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Has he mentioned anything else that he identifies as a problem? The home cluttered or anything?


It was - and I will admit it got pretty bad for awhile when I was severely depressed and not getting help. However: it stays fairly spotless now! The closets still need a thorough going-through, but that takes awhile with my busy schedule. I make sure every day the house is clean when H gets home from work.

I also cook a lot more now rather than getting fast food or going out like we'd been doing.

I've done all these 180's and he's noticed, but it still "isn't enough" for him it seems. I've even lost 30 lbs! (And always make sure to look as good as possible.)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I think if you look at the McGraw article on managing money thre's good tips in there too... particularly about having a limit on purchases that cost a lot... like big screen TV's... any large item purchases has to fall into the budget and be discussed as a team.. etc

If you put a plan together lke that it may help too...

If he's a half decent engineer he will appreciate structure and support you on it


Yes, and I'm sure he'd appreciate me taking the lead on it as well. BUT... doesn't it all still boil down to him wanting the relationship first? Don't we have to cross that hurdle before the real issues can be resolved???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:04 PM
I think MWD woudl tell you its the opposite.. that you do it til you feel it.

I think she would tell you that you make the changes first and the good feelings about the relationship will start to creep back when that happens...

SHe makes a point in her fisrt book DivorceBusting that a lot of couples stalemate themselves by sitting and waiting for the mood to strike them tow ork on their relationship and their lifestyle...

Her argument, which is the classic SBT theory is that you DO first and feel LATER

Your husband is in a classic "rut" where things are not where he wants them but instead of ACTING to CHANGE them for the better he chooses to brood about them and that just made him feel even worse ... So now he thinks ESCAPE ... ya ya that's gonna make me feel better I KNOW it...

THis is classic route to infidelity too..

Marriage turns sour
Feel misrable
Brood for a while
Feel even more miserable
Hit the PC and start trolling
I feel much better now!

It's an unhealthy pattern for sure

What I would do is put a PLAN together and give HIM 50% of the work to do... don't say it mean just give him half and tell him if this is what he wants he has to work for it...

At the end of two weeks you have yours all checked off and he can SEE who is at fault... if its not done..

I am big on writing things down and breaking work up... I have a spreasheet of TODO's for my wife and I here and its all documented up... If one of us starts to slack off we KNOW its us and we can't point fingers

This i think is part of your pobelm is he doens't SEE the work you are donig...

Just put a plan together with a talbe and headings for

TASK | ASSIGNEE | DATE COMPLETED | STATUS {open,closed}

And put it all in there and make him aware of the document

Put all the cloets on there as separate tasks, put the houseork on there etc...

Once you start using that he can SEE who is to blame and he won't like it, but teh argumetns will likley stop at least
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:06 PM
If there are disputes about the distribution of work you can discuss them... its factual and you can negotiate

TRADE tasks or whatever you want.. just stick to the worksheet so emotiosn don't creep in...

Men are VERY visual so if you have a worksheet of tasks to do he will liekly react better to that...

And you can put your kids on there too if you wanted to.

WHo knows your H may even ADD some items to it.. lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:09 PM
Well...of course I feel that way - feelings follow actions, but H doesn't see it that way right now! Therein lies the biggest issue of all. He's waiting to WANT to save the marriage before he does any work on it! Otherwise, he's only willing to work on a co-parenting R.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:11 PM
Just get him up and going... IF he's intersted you can find some SBT articles that explain this and print them up and leave them out for hmi to read... There msut be some simple ones out there that help him understand that sitting around waiting for the mood to strike him he may as well wait to be hit by lightning
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:13 PM
This is the point of MWD, she just tells people to do it and the spouse will start to fall into place.. as long as the LBS does NOT listen to the negatives coming from the WS and keeps focus the LBS will eventually catch on and start to participate gradually

THe risks are

a. This won't work if the spouse has gotten themselves addicted to something to escape their problems
b. This takes a long time
c. The WS can be a HUGE dead weight on the process if the LBS can't shield themsleves from teh abuse



Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just get him up and going... IF he's intersted you can find some SBT articles that explain this and print them up and leave them out for hmi to read... There msut be some simple ones out there that help him understand that sitting around waiting for the mood to strike him he may as well wait to be hit by lightning


I know, right?!!!!

How'd you get so smart while H is such an idiot?!!!

LOL

Geez...it's so sad to me that he sees none of this.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:18 PM
He doens't want to... he's fixated on his mood and its got a vice grip on him. He can't see anything ELSE.. its not that he can't see this concept in particular.. Waywardness is an illness itself, not an addictin per se, but it is a state of mind that is unhealthy and needs treatment...

It may be related to depresion I really can't say.. I ain't a psychologist

But when you put your life into something and it doens't turn out there is bound to be a fallout period and some people don't take that so well...

Just give him some things to do so he can see hwo he can help...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 09:19 PM
I think if YOU, your daughter AND your older son all three of you have a spreadsheet and taksks assigned and are working away I can't see your H just sitting there playing video games

And if he DOES your kids may just do the work fo ryou and start harassing hiim to help out...

If you make dbing a family thing its a LOT EASIER
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I think if YOU, your daughter AND your older son all three of you have a spreadsheet and taksks assigned and are working away I can't see your H just sitting there playing video games

And if he DOES your kids may just do the work fo ryou and start harassing hiim to help out...

If you make dbing a family thing its a LOT EASIER


Good point!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/04/10 10:47 PM
Particularly with men Sunny we need specific direction. We are trainable, but you have to make the dots very close together. smile

Telling him that he has to contribute and he has to do work on the marraige etc isn't particuarly specific for him.

A task list of things that need done with his name on it that is visual is going to go a lot further than abstractions I would think...

Just work on a plan, build it here if you want ... And then we can put it into a spreadsheet and assign him some work to do
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 01:28 AM
That sounds good!

I didn't get to use any of the scripts tonight. Picked H up and he was decent. We did our "30 minute talk" when we got home and he didn't bring up anything negative. Didn't talk about R at all, just discussed our days. Then we ate dinner and he said he was going to play XBox while I studied and said maybe we can watch a movie in a bit. SOOO.... since he was being positive, I didn't hit him with any of the stuff yet. I am going to print some things out though, like you suggested.

I did discover that he purchased the 2 books the FT had told him to read but they're still sitting in a bag untouched. They are books for him though, not for the relationship. Ironically, one is about setting boundaries and the other one about having hard conversations. Not sure if they will do our marriage any good. I'd rather him read what we were already given at the weekend retreat and RR. We'll see.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 01:39 AM
Plan so far:

1. No facebook trolling – seems done; acct is suspended.
2. No texting/emailing other women about personal issues.
3. Continue with nightly homework – talks. Read books given.
And implement the concepts into daily life.
4. Make a commitment to remaining positive and engaged in
The R, not just for purposes of co-parenting.
5. Work on issues with FT for real solutions. (financial, etc…)

It’s #4 and 5 that I’m having trouble with. Does he have to be fully committed to M to stay home and do the work or can he just be committed to trying??? #5 – does him going to FT for personal issues count or does it have to be MC?

What else??? Is this specific enough?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:15 AM
Is your FT aware of the program you went on and the material?

I really think that these professionals should coordinate or you have to manage that coordination... Otherwise there's a risk of working at cross purposes...

I don't think your H needs a book on setting boundaries... Where on earth did the FT get the idea that he needed to read that?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:30 AM
First, some of those plans are boundaries and some are tasks... I rephrased them all as boundaries (minimum commitment you can accept him living there with)


Boundaries while living together :

1. No facebook trolling - no facebook at all
2. No texting/emailing other women without ccing wife
3. Continue with nightly homework
4. One light stress free 30 min talk each day
5. Read books given - 20 pp daily
6. No negative commentary
7. No discussing marriage with children
8. All finances are done with cc to ensure its recorded
9. Financial books done and discussed end of each month
10.All purchases over 100$ are discussed first and agreed on as a couple
11. No exploring apartment buildings, asking friends if they have spare room etc


It’s #4 and 5 that I’m having trouble with. Does he have to be fully committed to M to stay home and do the work or can he just be committed to trying??? #5 – does him going to FT for personal issues count or does it have to be MC?

What do we mean by going to a FT vs going to a MC? Is he going to either right now?

Maybe put it in your signature... I really think people should put the positives in sigs, most of the time its just the negatives... Which won't motivate you much...

We are defining "commited" through our boundary list above... would you describe the person that does these things above as committed?

What else would he be doing that isn't there? Is there something else he would be doing or not doing to refine the description above?

This IS our definition of commitment above... If he sticks to that then he's committed... Just keep reading the list to decide if that makes YOU feel SAFE to continue...

This is what we are aiming for is an environment where you and the kids feel safe from abusive threats to exit the family. It's a traumatic thing to hold over people and you need to know he's NOT doing anything to hit a nerve there.

Think about things he's done so far that left you nervous... Such as hiding his phone or anything like that...

I didn't put the phone on there, feel free to add it...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:31 AM
You may also want to put in "no threats to leave" etc

You can refer to the examples of abuse I posted earlier and put any in there you feel might be within his range... or some he may have done already...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:33 AM
I think when you present this to him you should put a list together for BOTH of you... HE needs a list so HE feels safe too...

It's like a contract and you both agree to stick to... and yes the list will be different for you two... there may be some overlap, such as the financials

Yours can have

a. Keep household surfaces clean of clutter
b. etc

You put stuff in there you think would make HIM feel safe to continue working with you
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:36 AM
The plan we have to iron out yet...

Finding a way to put this contract in place would be good...

Maybe you could do one for YOU and build one for him WITH him... Or would that be too stressful?

i think if you got HIM to put his list together he's going to be more welcoming of it.. make him think the items are his idea...

I am still working on this one in my head... give me a bit...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:46 AM
The idea of the list above is that it's a 100% commitment with an indefinite time block...

He's not committed for life, but there is no time limit either... So basically you both are working each day to reknew this commitment if that makes sense...

I just dont' know if he will go for this or not...

MWD likes to just put the positive stuff on tehre like one 30 minute talk each day etc

She would likley tell you to exclude the facebook trolling thinking the 30 min talk each day would take care of the facebook problem...

I dunno.. I think its important to explicitly indicate those safety zones, particularly if they have been crossed already...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:50 AM
I think if you both haev a list that you negotiate ongoing it will give you both some sense of safety and confidence in each other... If I were a FT this is one of the first things I would do... I woudl try to keep the list to five or so items at first and then gradually add to it...

I would try to make sure both lists were equally weighted...

Its kinda like a practical reknew of vows without the decoration...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 02:53 AM
I try to translate "I wanna leave" into "I would like to see some positive chagnes in our marriage"

And then I go with that... You could argue a lot of infidelity is just as much a cry for help... It's an action to indicate that changes are needed.. GROSSLY unecessary and abusive beyond belief but its an expressio of thought just the same.. at least I think it is in many cases...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 03:07 AM
I got that idea from Rosenthal :


Through the years as a marriage therapist, I have been asked a countless number of times: “We were so wild about each other. So much in love. So passionate. How could we have possibly grown this cold and distant from each other?”

There are a variety of answers to the above question. Below are the top ways people ruin their marriage, injure love, destroy trust and generally make their relationship a miserable experience:

1. Making other things your top priority—work, computer, friends, TV, sports, children, etc.—rather that your intimate relationship.

2. Lack of affection. Hand holding, hugs, cuddling and physical tenderness is not only erotic and seductive, but it’s a glue that keeps the two of you feeling close, connected and bonded to each other. Its absence usually means the two of you have grown far apart.

3. Dishonesty. It’s hard to trust someone who doesn’t act trustworthy—who has deceived, misled or betrayed you in the past—or who is secretive, hidden or withholding of feelings or important personal information.

4. Stonewalling. Rather than addressing what bothers you, you wall off and stay and walled off for awhile.

5. Being defensive. Because it becomes increasingly difficult for your mate to say anything to you that you’d rather not hear, and over time, it shuts down communication, connection and closeness, because your partner becomes afraid of (or discouraged) from telling you what’s on his/her mind or how s/he truly feels.

6. Being passive-aggressive. Not directly stating how you feel, what you want or what you need, but rather punishing your partner in any number of ways if you don’t get what you want.

7. Being overly critical or argumentative. It makes you annoying and difficult to be around.

8. Being resentful, angry or hostile too much of the time. Then people will want to avoid you, or they’ll become afraid of you. Either one will destroy intimacy and trust.

9. Being self-absorbed or self-centered. Looking out for you, not for the welfare, happiness or contentment of your partner—and certainly not being mindful of what’s in the best interest of your relationship.

10. Not taking accountability for your behaviors—especially your difficult behaviors—or feeling so self-justified and self-righteous that you seldom think you owe an apology for your hurtful, insensitive or demeaning words or behaviors.

11. Control/power struggles. No one wants to be controlled or to feel powerless, and therefore shared power is the only way that really works.

12. Being walled off. Hard to reach. Emotionally or physically distant, closed or withholding.

13. Not communicating your needs, wants or desires clearly enough, or not treating those needs, as if they’re important.

14. Seeking stimulation in all the wrong places, through alcohol, drugs, an affair, porn, sports, work or in any other way that ultimately separates or distances you and your intimate partner.

15. Infidelity or betrayal. This is the worst method ever for attempting to tell your intimate partner you’re unhappy, because once trust in ruptured, it is extremely difficult to recapture—and the price is very high. You also, inadvertently, invite a revenge affair.

16. Having low trust. It’s very hard to be with someone who isn’t willing to offer you benefit of the doubt, or who sees your motives as suspect.

17. Poor listening skills. Most people talk too much about things that don’t, and listen with a genuine desire to understand way too little.

18. Lack of sex. Your partner is bound to feel resentful, angry, rejected and cheated.

19. Not treating as important that which is important to your partner.


I am gonna shut up now... There's enough here to read for the next three days lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Is your FT aware of the program you went on and the material?

I really think that these professionals should coordinate or you have to manage that coordination... Otherwise there's a risk of working at cross purposes...

I don't think your H needs a book on setting boundaries... Where on earth did the FT get the idea that he needed to read that?


I know she is aware of the program but I doubt she has full knowledge of how it works. That’s a good question. I am at the point where I feel maybe a FT who understands DB/Tough Love/Exposure is in order. While the one I’ve been seeing agrees with these concepts, she doesn’t seem to know about implementation, which is frustrating.

Case in point, having H read a book on boundaries and tough conversations. Does H need to learn these things? Yes. Had I known he was so upset about certain issues: housekeeping, certain kids’ activities that were costly, etc… I would have certainly paid closer attention to what he wanted. He just expected that “I knew” he was against things and now I’m being blasted because “I just did what I wanted and disregarded him.” I’m willing to see my part in that.

However… right now, in H’s mindset, FT should not have gone that direction with him. She should’ve stood up for M more and had him read something like RR or Love Languages, or something! But… maybe she felt that by validating his feelings and underscoring that he has an issue setting boundaries that she was getting him to see this WAS on him too and not just me. ??? That’s my guess.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 06:50 PM
I really don't like FT's who just run their agenda and don't even tell you where they are trying to go wtih it... It's like throwing people in teh back seat and driving without any communication...

The irony is these people are supposed to be experts at managing relationships and here she is doing this stuff and you aren't fully in the loop on her goals at all... What the heck is that all about?

In my opinion the one of the first things the FT should address is

a. Attack Abuse - establish safe boundaries for both spouses immeidately
b. Attack infideility
c. Attack Divorce

Once she's run that business through the conflict should at least be on a fair playing field as no one's cheating, no one's divorceing, and no one's abusing anyone... NOW you can deal with problems...

But if your H's talking divorce and looking at apartments this FT is NOT doing her job in my opinion...

You can't treat a marriage if the couple isnt' safe from these things above... And it does not sound like she addressed that..

If she's assigning him books on boundary setting and such then she's gotten ahead of herself..

First thing she should be telling your H is

a. No threatening to leave
b. We are NOT leaving the marriage, that is the LAST RESORT once therapy has proven to BOTH of you that it is ineffective...
c. No cheating, no prowling, no moving out

etc... Once she's talked to him ONE ON ONE about those items THEN she can address other conflicts...

To my mind those are red alerts above (a, b, and c) and she should be jumping on those HERSELF IMMEDIATLEY

Once she dispells the myths of escape (all kinds, divorce, infidelity, drinking, etc) and put a stop to that nonsense then you can work with the couple effectively

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 06:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I really don't like FT's who just run their agenda and don't even tell you where they are trying to go wtih it... It's like throwing people in teh back seat and driving without any communication...

The irony is these people are supposed to be experts at managing relationships and here she is doing this stuff and you aren't fully in the loop on her goals at all... What the heck is that all about?

In my opinion the one of the first things the FT should address is

a. Attack Abuse - establish safe boundaries for both spouses immeidately
b. Attack infideility
c. Attack Divorce

Once she's run that business through the conflict should at least be on a fair playing field as no one's cheating, no one's divorceing, and no one's abusing anyone... NOW you can deal with problems...

But if your H's talking divorce and looking at apartments this FT is NOT doing her job in my opinion...



Well, remember.... he only went the one time and chose not to go back, so I have to give her a little benefit of the doubt here. She and I both thought he would be returning but then he didn't want to.

That's why I had the question about MC. What if he only wants to go back to counseling for IC and not for the M? I guess it counts for something. Believe me, he has some stuff to sort through he has not dealt with, obviously! I almost feel like he needs that before MC will do any good.

(I'm still going through all the other posts.... lots of good stuff!) :-)
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:01 PM
Well, I think IC and MC/FT should be done collaboratively...

I can easily see these two therapists working at cross purposes with the Husband and his marriage (as a couple). Sending a person to ONE Therapist for IC and sending that person as a couple with his wife to a different Therapist where NEITHER therapist communicates with the other is an accident waiting to happen.

I don't know if you were reading ElvenCat's thread but he was giong to IC for schiz and his IC was giving him marriage advice... and not even BOTHERING to talk to his wife at all or even discuss his schiz at all... SHe only spoke to him in private and never ONCE contacted his own wife...

How can you even treat someone for an individual problem like depression, or schizophrenia, or anything wtihout at least ONE SESSION with that person's SPOUSE?

Is that QUALIITY treatment to meet the individual on a regular basis and not even have ONE MEETING with that person's wife? How cna you effectivley treat them when you don't address that person's environment, family, etc... They ARE part of his lifestyle and should be spoken to at LEAST for an HOUR lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:01 PM
I like your list ideas...and for him to have one as well.

Knowing H, he is at the point where he will be fine with the list, BUT, he will want it clear that it's to "work on the R - as a friendship - and not the M." That, to me, is still saying he wants out, but maybe it's just semantics and I shouldn't worry about it if he is willing to do the other things. What I'm trying to avoid here is cake-eating!

The Rosenthal stuff is a lot of things we covered over the last weekend at the retreat. I don't know why H can't sit there and hear that "Spouses lose feelings but can get them back...." but then is so insistent that "it's over." He reads these things, but they don't sink in. In his mind, it doesn't matter what the experts are saying, it only matters what he feels. SO frustrating!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:09 PM
I agree about the MC/IC and hearing both sides being necessary for even just IC. If he goes to the same person I was going to, she will know the entire story, of course. My frustration with him not wanting to go at all is what led me to the New Beginnings weekend. I wish they had a program in place where someone from there was available for counseling. I think I will contact them and see if they have any referrals.

Truly, my FT was fine for just me trying to work through personal stuff but I don't know that she is equipped to handle this crisis. Well, I honestly think she would be if H were committed to the M and we just needed help in hammering out issues. I don't think she is equipped to handle GETTING H committed to the M. That's where I see the biggest problem with most MC, actually. That's why we are all turning to the likes of DB coaches and such. Who knows - maybe it would just be best for me to contact a DB coach, lol.

Edited to add....I don't really think I need one because I've got someone who offers the most practical help one could ask for! wink
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:32 PM
I used a db coash before and I didn't find them much help other than having someone to talk to...

And they had to endorse the MDW approaches specifically, they can't go outside of that...

I think MWD would tell you to ignore his protests of "it's over", but I think its important to not accept him working "on the relationship" and only work "on the marriage"

If you accept his participation with HIS understanding that he can exit the marriage because of how he feels then you are validting his exit I think.. And I don't know if you want to be doing that...

If he says I want to learn how to be your friend after the divorce, lets work on that... you would likekly tell him to get lost... WHcih is what he's saying from my take on it...

You have two choices there :

a. Accept his work hoping it will change his attitude towards the marriage
b. Reject his work until he offers it as an effort to repair the marriage spcifically

My concern as I said is that if you accept his effort it may be sending a message to him that you accept his cowardly exit and are just going through the training of how to get along aftr the divorce... It may steer him towards divorce if he takes your acceptance the wrong way...

I suppose you could tell him

a. Learning to work together as a married couple and as a divorced couple isnt' that much different.. we have to do the same things... its just mroe expensive after divorce since we have to pay for two homes instead of one.

And hope the work changes his attitude... I am pretty hard minded about formal commitments and stuff, I dont' much care for wafflers playing word games like he's doing... So my instinct is to say hit him hard and fast that If he's going to walk out that the family does not want his involvement at all in hwo things happen after that... But then you would need support from son and daughter on that...

I think he has an unrealistic image of what divorce is going to be like... and we may have to attack that directly in order to dispell it...

I think he thinks his life is going to be less work and less responsability if he's divorced
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:34 PM
My thinking is to get Son and Daughter together and just hit him head on one night :

All three of you sit and say to him

OK, this is your choice

a.Work on the marriage and make a 100% commitment to put forth the effort - no exit activity and no exit talk whatsoever
b. Leave now and not be a part of this family any further


That's a rough choice, but with all three of you staring him down with a rough exit like that I would like to think he would cave ...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:44 PM
The last sentence you have there hits the nail RIGHT on the head: He thinks divorce is going to be less work, free him of responsibility, and allow him to not deal with things and be stress free. He's wrong, but he just doesn't know it.

And see... I agree with you on the waffling business, which is why I'm being so particular with him on this issue and the semantics. Practically, there probably isn't a lot of difference in us working on the marrage vs working on a friendly relationship. Philosophically, however, it's a big deal to me! Why on earth would I want to work on being friends with you so you can leave me and my kids and me be OK with it?! That's what I tried to hit him hard with on Tues night and he asked for a week to consider. I specifically said: What's best for our kids is to have a happily married mom and dad. I'm not asking for our old M back - in fact, I don't want it back. I'm saying we can have a new M, one that is better and healthy for both of us. That just caused him to go into defense mode of how "he's been devastated and can't recover...." (taking no personal responsibility for why his life is not exactly what he wants, blaming me.) I told him he could not stay here if he did not want to be married to me any longer; that if he knew he just wanted out, he should go. Obviously, he didn't jump to leave or he wouldn't still be here but made the statement if he had to choose that night, he'd leave. Personally, I think he was just trying to get me to back off, but I didn't. I did agree to table the discussion for a week.

SO...I stood my ground on that issue. I just have to back that decision up next week and not allow cake-eating, is what I feel I need to do. I just want to make sure I'm not getting caught up in semantics and pushing him away when he's willing to do the work - just because I'm not hearing exactly what I want to hear.

Conversely, I think it's important to not let him exit quietly and "friendly" just because I let him either - as you said above.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
My thinking is to get Son and Daughter together and just hit him head on one night :

All three of you sit and say to him

OK, this is your choice

a.Work on the marriage and make a 100% commitment to put forth the effort - no exit activity and no exit talk whatsoever
b. Leave now and not be a part of this family any further


That's a rough choice, but with all three of you staring him down with a rough exit like that I would like to think he would cave ...




He probably would. I'm not sure if D and S16 could handle it. I could talk to them. S14 I know would not be able to handle it. He's very concerned about not showing partiality to either of us, and that's OK. As I said - with his Aspergers, I don't expect him to be part of the tough love campaign.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 07:54 PM
Your youngest son may just be too young to deal iwth this problem... It may be a bit over his head... THat's why I suggested just your oldest son and you daughter... you three sit down and tell him that he is not getting a get out of marriage free card and there WILL be consequences for him abandoning the family... and USE that WORD...

As long as they or you make it easy for him to walk away, he's going to lean that direction...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/05/10 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Your youngest son may just be too young to deal iwth this problem... It may be a bit over his head... THat's why I suggested just your oldest son and you daughter... you three sit down and tell him that he is not getting a get out of marriage free card and there WILL be consequences for him abandoning the family... and USE that WORD...

As long as they or you make it easy for him to walk away, he's going to lean that direction...


I agree. Of course, if he does do it anyway, I think there may still be hope that he will realize it's not all it's cracked up to be and doesn't solve his issues and want back in, but I'm hoping he is not so hard-hearted and stubborn that that's what has to happen in order for him to realize it. From experience with our first separation many years ago, however, that's what it took. I'm trying like you-know-what for it not to come to that, esp. with the kids at stake here, but I just don't know.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 03:18 AM
What's the history with the first sep... what were you doing then and what brought him back?

How long was he gone... and how much MONEY did HE WASTE in the process?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 03:20 AM
OH I have another question Sunny...

How long did your H's EA last and how much money did he spend on her?

How much money has HE WASTED in separation and infidelity escapisms to date?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 04:23 PM
The first time we separated was in the 3rd year of our marriage. It's an unusual situation in that we were involved in this church that was very hardcore and demanding. He said they controlled our lives and he wanted out. Looking back, I agree - the church was really cultish. But anyway, at that time he blamed me for getting us involved and said he had to get away from the situation, and from me, because obviously I wanted to be part of it, etc... I tried telling him otherwise but just like now, he "couldn't see loving me again in that way." He left me with our 2 oldest children being very young at the time, 3rd not born yet. Now, he didn't spend much on being separated because he went to stay with one of his friends on base - he was in the military. So, no money wasted. At that time I had already read Dobson's Tough Love book and so I was successful in manning the line of self-respect - didn't beg or plead for him to come back, etc... For a couple of months we communicated about the kids and that was basically it. Oh, he also refused MC at that time: went once and that was all. After several months of separation, H was deployed to the Gulf. He wrote occasionally and called - checked on the kids. Eventually he started saying there might be a chance for us, etc... and we reconciled. So, I would say that my letting go brought him back. It was kind of DBing without knowing it.

I truly can't say he wasted money in the process though. Quite frankly, his guilt probably kept him from wasting money - having left me with 2 young kids.

When he then had the EA in our 7th year of marriage, it was all through online gaming sites. Can't say he wasted any money there either. When I caught him (discovered some emails) he was shocked I found out but ended it immediately. It lasted for about 3 months I would say before I found out.

Now, more recently, I also can't say he has wasted a ton of money, but yes, some here and there. $50 for that background check - the large screen tv for his XBox escape and of course, all the games (but boys benefit too), his trip to Vegas where he just "had to get away" and "deserved"....

BUT... I will concede that he has spent little on himself most of our years together. The biggest issue isn't how much he has spent on himself, but how he justifies all HIS purchases but none of mine.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 04:29 PM
S16 talked to me last night, btw. Guess what he said? He would rather H leave than continue all this "maybe, maybe not" business. He said it makes him feel very anxious and he would rather just know. Said maybe if H can't make up his mind he should go - at least for a week or 2.

SO, basically he confirmed what was discussed previously: the holding leaving over the head is a form of emotional abuse.

Last night was another calm night for the most part. H and I did our 30 minute convo and actually did a logic puzzle together, which was fun. We ate dinner as a family for once and H then asked me if I minded if he played some XBox. I then watched a movie with the boys.

H went to bed before I did for once and when I came to bed, he was very affectionate, wanting to scratch my back, etc...

SO, I don't know if he's coming around or just wanted some action or what the deal was. If the only change had been when I came to bed, I'd say he just wanted sex. But, the attitude, etc... beforehand was different as well. Don't get me wrong - I'm not getting my expectations up. I learned better from doing that at the weekend retreat! But, it's hard for me to fathom him actually wanting to leave when he's acting this way while he's here.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:17 PM
He doens't WANT to leave...

He FEELS hopeless and has no education on this subject so he has to rely on his instincts...

And they tell him - RUN!!!

He doen'st WANT to run, he feels like that's his only hope to escape his miserable feelings...

There ARE better responses, but he doenst have the education so he's relying on instincts alone.. see?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
He doens't WANT to leave...

He FEELS hopeless and has no education on this subject so he has to rely on his instincts...

And they tell him - RUN!!!

He doen'st WANT to run, he feels like that's his only hope to escape his miserable feelings...

There ARE better responses, but he doenst have the education so he's relying on instincts alone.. see?


Yeah, I can see that. Although, he got quite the education last weekend and still refuses to let parts of it sink in. Lets hope enough stuck that he finds his way through it. It's hard for me to try to piece this R back together when he wants to one minute and doesn't the next - or wants to for the wrong reason (co-parenting).

Even S16 said maybe it's best he goes so he can see that he's NOT happier off on his own... but, that's not what I want to happen, obviously. I can't help but wonder if it might be for the best though, if his mindset doesn't change.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:33 PM
OH and ya its good to hear your Son has confirmed the abuse angle we were takling about earlier.. I suspect your Daughter would say something similar...

It IS abusive to constantly hold the threat of abandonment over your families head...

I don't think WH views it as a threat as much as him just "saying how he feels"... But he has to realize he has commitments and kids so there are more impotant things on his plate than simply how he feels right now...

I think you need to set a boundary that you will not allow talk of leaving in the home. If he's going to leave he needs to do it or participate in the marriage... But that may just tip the scales..

You guys will have to decide if you want to subject yourselves to the abuse in hopes that a positive atmoshphere and your hard work as a family will gradually improve his attitude OR if you want to send him away until he realizes what he's missing to protect the family.

Wow, that was all in one sentence! lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:36 PM
I guess, I'm trying to decide if the following should be my stance come "decision time" next week:

Me to H:
"If you want to stay in this house and work on the marriage, you can under certain conditions for both of us (as discussed previously in thread). You don't have to commit 100% to be married, but you have to at least be willing to be positive and hopeful that this CAN work out if we both do the hard work involved. If you are still of the mindset that you don't want the M and only want to be friends, you need to leave."
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:38 PM
I was reading an article about wive's and families of policemen who have to live this way, but its a bit different.

Those women and their children have to live each day knowing that they may get a phone call at any time informing them their H has been killed in the line of duty, etc. This causes a great deal of anxiety and fear, but in that case its a bit different...

His JOB is what does that to the family not his attitude... And I think Police have to buy a lot of insurance due to the risks they are taking... Which I know is only money but it does set the mind at ease...

Living with the idea that your H and father can and wants to walk out on you every day takes its toll... Feeling miserable isnt' a justification to beat your family to death with it...

I don't want to tell people who feel sad simply to suck it up, but sharing the idea of escape iwth yoru family while IGNORING THIER panic ENTIRELY just seems incredibly destructive and selfish
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
I guess, I'm trying to decide if the following should be my stance come "decision time" next week:

Me to H:
"If you want to stay in this house and work on the marriage, you can under certain conditions for both of us (as discussed previously in thread). You don't have to commit 100% to be married, but you have to at least be willing to be positive and hopeful that this CAN work out if we both do the hard work involved. If you are still of the mindset that you don't want the M and only want to be friends, you need to leave."


I think teh wording needs some teweaking but this is a fair position to take, and a healthier one for the whole family realtive to the one he is perpetuating
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
OH and ya its good to hear your Son has confirmed the abuse angle we were takling about earlier.. I suspect your Daughter would say something similar...

It IS abusive to constantly hold the threat of abandonment over your families head...

I don't think WH views it as a threat as much as him just "saying how he feels"... But he has to realize he has commitments and kids so there are more impotant things on his plate than simply how he feels right now...

I think you need to set a boundary that you will not allow talk of leaving in the home. If he's going to leave he needs to do it or participate in the marriage... But that may just tip the scales..

You guys will have to decide if you want to subject yourselves to the abuse in hopes that a positive atmoshphere and your hard work as a family will gradually improve his attitude OR if you want to send him away until he realizes what he's missing to protect the family.

Wow, that was all in one sentence! lol




But a GREAT sentence! LOL. I was responding the same time you were writing - about just that: trying to decide my stance.

I KNOW D18 would feel the same way. She's as much said so already just not in the same words. It hit me yesterday how much I resent H doing all of this right now and being so self-centered. How awful is it to look at my D going away to college in just a few weeks and we haven't even gotten to focus on her AT ALL. Everything this summer has been about H and the "marital issues" when it should be a time to spend with my daughter. Yes, I realize that is all in attitude and I should've done a better job separating myself out of that. I've tried to make sure to do the right things by her. It's just not the scenerio I would've liked to have seen with our oldest child leaving for school.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I was reading an article about wive's and families of policemen who have to live this way, but its a bit different.

Those women and their children have to live each day knowing that they may get a phone call at any time informing them their H has been killed in the line of duty, etc. This causes a great deal of anxiety and fear, but in that case its a bit different...

His JOB is what does that to the family not his attitude... And I think Police have to buy a lot of insurance due to the risks they are taking... Which I know is only money but it does set the mind at ease...

Living with the idea that your H and father can and wants to walk out on you every day takes its toll... Feeling miserable isnt' a justification to beat your family to death with it...

I don't want to tell people who feel sad simply to suck it up, but sharing the idea of escape iwth yoru family while IGNORING THIER panic ENTIRELY just seems incredibly destructive and selfish


Yep: you're right. With H, he doesn't even get that he is inducing this panic. Everyone is being strong and resiliant, so he's fine with it. AND...it doesn't help that he feels as long as he is contributing his paycheck that he's "doing his job" and providing security. I don't think he gets that emotional security is just as important, if not more so, that financial security. I've tried telling him but he doesn't see it quite frankly - at least not right now.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:53 PM

If you are willing to commit to work with this family, you are welcome to be part of this family and remain here with us. The boundaries we need to lay out for our safety would apply to both of us. Your family would love to have you here. But it is imperative that you offer a positive and hopeful atmosphere. This CAN work out if we both do the hard work involved - families accomplish this every day. You may not feel that way, but this doens't dismiss the facts.

Famlies either work on their problems and overcome them, or they run away and allow the family to fall apart. If you insist on clinging to a negative and threatening mindset that you don't want the marriage and don't want to live with this family, you need to be elsewhere for the emotional and physical health of myself our children.


Rough draft based on your earlier post...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 06:59 PM
Nice!!! I like it! A lot!!! Much better than mine.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 07:30 PM
It is REALLY important that you word this as a family, NOT as YOU vs HIM.. if you do that tehn you will drive him away most likley...

I wanted to say more, about your daughter going off to college and needing the security of a strong family at home. About going to college with the fear that your family could fall apart and not even be tehre when you come back... Or about all your changes and how hard it is to keep those going and going to school with all the negativity...

You could go on, but I think its important to be concise... as long as its worded as him being part of the family or NOT then he's really got a tough choice (no A cake-eating anymore, he has to take B or C only)
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 07:32 PM
If he thinks everyone will be happy or even most of his kids will be happy with him moving out then he gets choice A, he gets his family and his indepdendence...

he will ALWAYS choose that over C (making 100% commitment to teh home)... I think you see where I am going... you just need to keep teh famly a united front
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
Nice!!! I like it! A lot!!! Much better than mine.


Keep poking away at it for more conciseness... I think it can be tighter, but its getting there...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 08:08 PM
OK: Got it! Focusing on the family rather than "the marriage" is key. That's an important distinction. HE may not see that (since he thinks the kids will be "fine"...) but it is important for me to hammer that home.

The crazy thing is, H thinks D is the least to be affected since she is going off to school - but I think it's probably worse for her because of the very things you said above!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 11:41 PM
Do some research on how divorce harms children and families and print that up...

It's easy to say "fine" but its a lot harder when there's a pile of research in front of you proving you are being an a$$...

Especially if he hears from his eldest son and daughter that they both feel misrable about his threatening to abaondon the family

And ya I am expressing it as abandon and family, not move into an apartment which is likley the way he would spin it
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/06/10 11:42 PM
And if you do decide to sit and have a state of teh union do it as a family with all three of you speaking to him as a unit...

If you show your son and daughter the script above and tell them this is how you are going to approach him and invite them to sit in in order to support his working with the family
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 03:27 AM
OK. That sounds like a healthy plan. D18 and I talked for quite awhile today. Her biggest fear is that either she or S16 will get so upset with H that they will just blurt out stuff at him. I told her that it's OK to have anger - anger is not wrong, but you have to express it right. She and S16 are on board. We will just have to see how it goes this coming week I suppose.

Meanwhile, no more talk of leaving or whatnot from H. He's been somewhat cooperative with the family but still is not "all in." D and I went shopping today for college stuff. Tried to get him to come along but he did not want to. I told him that financially, it would be good for him to have an opinion on what we spent on what...still did not want to go. I discussed the budget for the shopping trip and he agreed. We did go to the movies later as a family. SO...all is calm for the moment.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 02:37 PM
Just show your D and S the script so they know what's going to be said... they may even have suggestions... Tell her its upsetting for you as well which is why you will say what's on the script and exit the convo...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 03:33 PM
It doesn't help that all of this comes right at when D has to go to orientation, cheer camp, and move to her new place all in the next 10 days! I hate the timing, but you play the hand you're dealt in life.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 04:07 PM
As long as she understands you are trying to save her family I can't imagine she's going to be frustrated with you.

YOu want them a bit frustrated with thier father. You want them dissappointed enough to express it so they pressure him to cooperate...

If everyone is civilized and calm then your H won't feel any pressure and an exit will be easier...

If he is going to exit that's his choice, but his family's job is to make that a difficult choice for him.

I don't communicate with my family, but they make it very easy to avoid them.

Don't worry if the kids are frustrated or scared (this usually appears as anger, but anger really is simply a mask for a deeper emotion)... They need to feel something in order to pressure your H.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 09:10 PM
Yeah - she and S16 are not frustrated with me at all, but they definitely are with their dad! I have told them righteous indignation is nothing to shy away from.

Right now things are still calm: H went to church with us this morning and out to lunch. We went to the movies last night as a family... Yet, he's there but not there at the same time. He is still distant even though he's in attendance. It's not as bad as it once was though. At least it isn't "arms folded/scowling mode" when he's around now. Hope4Us could be right in that maybe he's in WD from the EA and other escapes... And btw: no more carrying the cell into the bathroom while he showers either.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/08/10 09:13 PM
It sounds like he's trying... If he cans the negative talk and starts following your boundaries implicitly you may not need to confront.

What is he doing now that is violating the boundary list you have set up?

Did you add anything to the boundary list posted?

Are your kids ok with that list?

They need to know if he crosses a boundary that they need to call him on it and WALK AWAY

If all three of you call him on boundary violations and then EXIT before he gets defensive and all three of you KEEP that UP I think that's a pretty solid wall he won't break
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 11:52 AM
Well, he is trying, but I'm not sure of the motivation for it, which is the hard part right now. If I had to say, it's not because he wants the M but because he doesn't want me to force him out of the home.

Honestly, right now he is not crossing any boundaries. That's the positive. The negative is, he's not doing anything to work on the M either, other than our daily 30 min. conversations: no counseling, no book reading, no seeking to improve the R by activities for just the 2 of us, etc... Of course, I have not forced that issue because I am giving him his week to consider things and that week is not yet up.

I'm not sure what I will do if H doesn't bring up it being the end of a week and doesn't have a decision of any kind, yet is not crossing boundaries. It's like doing the bare minimum to not be forced out yet stagnant at the same time.

All of this gets even more complicated right now, with D only having basically 4 days left at home! It's an emotional time. On a practical level, she won't be around to help build that wall.

S16 is a different story. H came to bed last night and told me that S16 told him he was ticked about the sex texting with the old gf. I had asked S16 not to say anything to H about me telling him about that, but it's unfair to ask a 16 year old to keep quiet. That was the one thing he was really ticked about, more than anything else because it's a definite wrong in his book. H was probably miffed that I told S, but he did not get defensive. I told him that all 3 of the kids are trying to be strong, but they are upset about what's going on and rightfully so. I didn't focus on the text msg but on the bigger picture. I told him I explained to S that there were bigger issues to deal with other than the text message - but S had a right to be angry about it.

I keep reiterating to S16 that the bigger problem is that H refuses to work on the M and is willing to walk away after 20 years, not the text message. That was just a symptom. I wish he would see that more clearly. In any case, just goes to show that these private conversations need to halt. I guess I will cross that bridge this week as well, come decision time.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 12:33 PM
Yup... well, its just exposure so there's no reason to be angry. It's better that the truth is out there.

Your H can be as embarassed as he likes. HE chose to send messages to old gf's and he has to own that. Do NOT APOLOGIZE for that... He's already cheated on the family once and he was starting again... He just got caught early... He has no case there and will have to own it and keep his anger/embarassment to himself... Did he even apologize to his son for that or did he just walk away angry?

The problem with your son is he likley wants specifics... The text message is a specific... "not working on the marriage" isn't... Try listing to your son the things he should be doing like you did in this post :

1. Reading
2, Homework

etc.. be as specific as you can so he gets it... many people work much better with specifics than abstractions and your son is likely just working with what he's comfortable.
Posted By: Hope4us Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 01:30 PM
Sunny, Allen is giving you some good advise. It was my youngest son (16 yo at the time) that finally ended the A for good.

He was brutal with her, but it woke her up. Just the other day she again said to me that she was angry I told our kids what was going on and I said to her "Does the end justify the means? If he hadn't woke you up, we'd be D'd right now, so isn't it better that we're still together as a family instead of divorced with your pride in tact?" And she just looked at me and lowered her head and shook it yes.

Thing is, I didn't tell the kids to hurt her like she thinks. I told them so they would know the truth and KNOW that there was at least one parent that would never lie to them...that there was one parent that they could count on to never let them down no matter what. And here we are two years later and our boys have TWO parents that will never let them down.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 02:11 PM
Duly noted!

H did not say what he said to S16 about it, but it doesn't sound like he was angry. I probably should've been a little more forceful in my response to H when he asked me about it instead of brushing it aside, but I was tired - it was midnight - and I was taken off guard. I wish I would've sent the message that "that's what you get when you behave badly," instead of the softer stance I took. I didn't go soft, soft...but not as hard as I should've I don't feel. Oh well. Opportunity slipped by, I guess, to hit him with a hard truth there.

I will talk to S about the specifics.

I agree, Hope - my motivation to tell S16 and D18 was not to hurt H, but so that they would understand why they needed to stick up for the M. I don't regret telling them at all. If H asks me about it again, I will have a better answer prepared for that.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 02:42 PM
Yup, you should tell your kids, its basic exposure.. you don't want that connection with that gf to snowball into an addiction he can't end easily...

I dno't like exposure, but its a necessary evil... it takes years to end an affair without it from what I am seeing..
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 07:25 PM
You're right about that! Well, either exposure or discovery followed by the tough love/letting go approach. Both are effective more than tolerance, that's for sure. I guess it depends on the situation.

As for mine - I did find out a little more awhile ago. Seems like it's 2 steps backwards now. While H had been so positive and had been taking baby steps, the whole situation that precipitated S16 telling H that he was pissed last night was because H had him and S14 in the car, basically discussing leaving. He asked how they would feel about it, etc... SO, S14 now knows about the text messages/facebook stuff. According to D18 and S16, S14 now sees more why "mom is fighting for the family while dad is being self-centered." I spoke with S14, of course. I talked with all 3 today about the boundaries. S16 apparently gave H quite the earful last night. I sure wish I'd known this before H asked me about telling S16. I would've taken a harder line, for sure. Now I'm REALLY sorry I didn't take a firm stance on why S was told. I didn't apologize for telling him, but it probably came across as me making excuses for telling him, darn it!!! Oh well.

SO: now, it makes everything a little tougher in the stay/go dept. H tried to justify his behavior to the boys, pointing fingers at me, but they didn't buy it. They both noted that I have made great changes in myself these past months while H has withdrawn.

I'm at least glad to hear that both boys told H that they did NOT want their parents divorced...that they were mad, upset, etc...

D18 also mentioned to me that H told her that he wasn't sure how my dad and brother (and his family) were going to take all of this. Obviously he is thinking about what they are all going to think of him. Of course, he made it sound like he wouldn't be able to tell them that I, their daughter/sister/aunt, was "crazy" and couldn't be lived with. Um, none of my kids agree. He also played the "history rewrite" with the kids, acting like our M has never been any good, which all 3 know differently.

SO: I feel quite disappointed today in this setback. I truly thought things were progressing yet I know this is part of the process.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 07:54 PM
Yep, don't worry about it... the thing is he's spinning a lot of stories and no one is listening to it.. Not a setback from where I am sitting... You have a solid family there who is prepared to shut him down.. that is NOT easy to get when you need it as you have seen on this forum.. you shoudl be elated you have this much support at home smile
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 08:03 PM
OK...You're right! Focus on the positives, which are my kids! :-)

I guess I wanted to believe that the positive changes of late reflected a better, more optimistic mindset and was not quite the case, thus my disappointment. However, the support from the kids is essential. I can't help but think how much therapy they're all going to need after this!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 08:26 PM
Sunny, the hard facts are that if your Husband is wayward its going to be up and down for likley six or more months... Don't expect to see any improvement for six months... The improvement in him will be internal at first and will manifest itself slowly from a six month point onwards... you may see effort earlier in spurts, but it will be short lived...

This is the point of the "ignore 100% of what they say and 50% ofwhat they do" guideline... If you get too focussed on thier reaction then you will be allowing THEIR responses drive your actions... you don't want in that cycle its death in slow motion

BREAK the cycle by just doing what you should be doing with blinders on to him unless he breaks a boundary...

It's ok to watch him and such, but don't let it get to a point where it will impact your motivation or you are dead in teh water...

Your choices are NOT dictated at ALL by his actions... Just do it...

Monitor for boundaries alogn teh way, but as long as he's not veering froun the boundaries then give him time to process
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 08:43 PM
You may be inteersted in this Sunny :

Comparing covert financial activities inside of marriage with covert romantic and sexual activities inside of marriage - which is worse? Financial or sexual betrayal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_infidelity

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/thi...ell-427923.html

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 10:14 PM
Interesting articles - never heard of financial infidelity as a term before. I agree that it should all be above board. Now, I will say that for my part, I've never done much lying or stashing or running up debt. That's what is so maddening: H claims that I've thrown all this money away but yet he has access to ALL of our account information and can see every dime I've spent (debit cards) from the grocery store to Macys. So, to me, my spending was pretty much an open book. I have never done a lot of shopping for myself - mainly for the kids. Occasionally there might be the little white lie involved, but most often not. Most often it was right there for him to see, he didn't say anything about it, yet now acts like I have run us into the ground. I'm taking ownership of my 50% of the financial stuff, but he is just as culpable, in my opinion.

On the other hand, he is 100% culpable for the romantic indiscretions, and I don't doubt I played a role in that because I wasn't a good enough wife meeting his needs perhaps, but I sure don't think I should have to own 50% of that.

Am I being hard-headed???
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 10:18 PM
Nope, I think its all good there...

Do you think you have wasted anymore $$ than your H has?

Next time he brings that up just tell him you've done the bookeeping and you both have wasted money...

If you want to do the work and add it all up that would even be beter... I strongly suspect you will find he's wasted no less than you have...

He is accusing you of financial infidelity, but he really doens't have any case here... It's just him being accusatory... And yes I still suspect its a smoke screen
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 10:18 PM
As for the 6 month+ deal, that's not good news, lol. I don't want to have to deal with him this way for another 6 months or more, that's for sure. UGH. But, I get your point about being patient and not expecting overnight change. However, it DOES have to be healthy for him to be here in the house, and not constantly stress-inducing for me and the kids.

I don't think at this point I do most things to garner a reaction from H. Most of my changes and GAL have been for me and my kids. Occasionally I'll make myself do something just to make sure I'm on top of my game with H, but I feel I'm being pretty authentic. It's hard not to notice the reactions though, whether good or bad. It's a good warning though and reminder - to not get caught up with trying to mind read!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/09/10 10:21 PM
Just think about the idea of thought police

You dont want to go that far

a. Your husband can think negative
b. Your husabnd can feel negative
c. Your husband can share negative thoughts or feelings within the family
d. Your husband can act negative within the family

Clearly a and b are his and don't bother touching them, but c and d you call him on...

And ya, according to MWD if you set boundaries on c and d then those boundaries will slip into a and b eventually anyways... He just doens't know that part lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Nope, I think its all good there...

Do you think you have wasted anymore $$ than your H has?

Next time he brings that up just tell him you've done the bookeeping and you both have wasted money...

If you want to do the work and add it all up that would even be beter... I strongly suspect you will find he's wasted no less than you have...

He is accusing you of financial infidelity, but he really doens't have any case here... It's just him being accusatory... And yes I still suspect its a smoke screen


It definitely is. When S16 called him on the Facebook/texting issues, he immediately started on me and finances. It's his justification for feeling the way he feels towards me and the M. Reminds me of junior high school, having to point fingers at me instead of just owning up to his own behavior.

I may have wasted a little more money than he has, but certainly not without his knowledge and certainly not this "huge" sum more. It would be difficult to go back and figure out, but you know what? I think I'm going to try! That's a good idea. He can't argue if I can put it in black and white. (Although I'm sure he'll still find fault.)
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Just think about the idea of thought police

You dont want to go that far

a. Your husband can think negative
b. Your husabnd can feel negative
c. Your husband can share negative thoughts or feelings within the family
d. Your husband can act negative within the family

Clearly a and b are his and don't bother touching them, but c and d you call him on...

And ya, according to MWD if you set boundaries on c and d then those boundaries will slip into a and b eventually anyways... He just doens't know that part lol



Good practicals here. I need to go back and re-read DR. I've forgotten so much of it and gotten off on all the other material that I've forgotten some of the good stuff from MWD. (Although, the other stuff has been really good as well!)

Tonight H is acting very withdrawn again - and went straight into the office to play XBox whereas he's been being more considerate of that and of doing our nightly homework, etc... first. It probably has something to do with the kids calling him on his CB last night. That's my guess, although, S16 is not home. S14 and D are though.

I am going to go politely ask him about doing the homework... see where that goes.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:17 AM
If he tries to point fingers again just tell him this :


Hold it.

You are changing the subject. Right NOW we are talking about facebook and your choices. You aren't a robot. I don't MAKE you do things.. YOU do.

If you want to discuss finances and how we manage that we can. But right now the subject is your choices to bring a SECOND affair into this home over face book.


Each time he tries to shift the subject to you accept that its worth discussing but confront him straight out :

a. Own your choices - you aren't a robot
b. One subject per conversation

Each time he tries to change the subject and blame you for something shift it back and hit him again

a. Are you prepared to own your choice or are you going to hide behind blaming someone like an angry child?
b. I will not accept blame for your choices. I will accept my choices, but I am not responsible for yours
c. I am willing to discuss my financial choices and own them. Are you prepared to own your choices yes or no?

Just keep moving him back... don't let him get into finances.. Don't defend your finances, shift the conversation back and corner him until he agrees to take ownership or he runs away.. eitehr way he will learn something about himself.




Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:21 AM
good to note - and a good thing to tell the kids as well. He loves to deflect!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:24 AM
With the finances just tell him

a. We dont know who bought what - YET.
b. I am willing to take ownership of the chioces of what i bought if you are.
c. I will not accept impromptu fiancial history or be attacked by it
d. I will accept facts - you go find them

And if he keeps attacking you get up and excuse yourself

It's important that your conversation with him is calm... so when HE attacks he will learn you will walk away... condition him to either stay calm and stick to the facts or the convo is over...

Each time stick to that... if he starts blaming you steer it to facts or back to the conversation you WERE having if he tries to change it... DOnt' yell, don't attack, invite him to take ownership and wait
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:25 AM
If you want, print up the facebook stuff so he doens't deny it and bring it to th table so he sees how a factual conversation takesk place.. teach him how to discuss boundaries...

If he wants to talk about financial boundaries thats GREAT, but he has to learn that you do it with facts, not finger pointing
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:28 AM
Even highlight the facebook stuff

I certainly hope you took copies of it all before he locked it down... shocked
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 12:58 PM
I do have some of the facebook stuff. None of it is incriminating, but does show the trolling. I have the text message still on my phone that he sent. (The one that was meant for the old gf.)

He has stopped the financial talk with me as I think he knows I'm not playing that game anymore. Now it's just to the kids, it seems, that he is using it. Doesn't mean it won't come up again though (with me) so it's good to have a plan of action!

That's the thing: on the weekend retreat we discussed the 4 horsemen in detail and the barriers to communication. He specifically saw how blaming me was a horseman and I can call him on it!

Of course, he also heard several times over about the history rewrite and he still doesn't seem to make the connection that he's doing that. SO.. why should I expect that he will remember the 4 horsemen too?!

You would've really liked that weekend seminar, btw, Allen. With all your knowledge, etc... there was a lot of information that was dead on and even more in depth as to the whys/hows of everything you discuss! I would love to share more of it here, on the forum, when I have a bit more time. Maybe after getting D off to college this coming week. The only thing I took issue with the whole weekend is it seems they endorse the "being friends" aspect more than I like. I'm trying to find a little more about that. I think being friends with someone who's doing you wrong is just counter to self-respect, personally. They see it as a draw back to you because that's one of the aspects of attraction. However, it's not an area we talked about in depth so maybe they aren't saying something counter to what I feel and I was a bit sensitive to it because of already having that discussion here on the boards.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:18 PM
Did they list the four horsemen?

Readers here may benefit from at least the four being listed.

If you have print outs of the four horsemen such as a single page or whatnot PRINT it OUT and when you sit down to talk you put that in front of you both and you STOP him as soon as he veers into one... YOu point at the sheet and offending item there and say


NO...


And you wait for him to back up... Or walk away.. He will do one or the other...

I am not big on expecting a WS to remember anything that isn't right in front of them and POINTED AT...

It's insulting to have to treat your spouse like a child I know, but it will work a lot better than hoping he remembers something that will incriminate him...

That's like asking a burglar to watch your house for you while you are on vacation...

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:35 PM
We actually have it printed out for us, in the workbook we had to do individually while there.

I'm telling you - it's a GREAT program. Even though H and I didn't end the weekend as a lot did in terms of H still being not committed to the M, I do think that if we get back to that place, the weekend will definitely have played its role in that - whether he admits it or not! He does admit it provided great tools.

Burglar watching the house....LOL... too funny and too correct!!!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 01:43 PM
My point is the weekend doesn't HAVE to END...

You bring it BACK into the discussion in PRINT FORM and plop it right in front of him...

Each time he steers teh conversation into something destructive thats identified on the print out you tell him

NO

And POINT to the print out.. FORCE him to either go BACK to the weekend in his mind and follow what he was taught OR he gets up in a defensive huff and stops off...

Even if he storms off he KNOWS you were on teh right track and he KNOWS HE is the one who isnt' cooeprating...

You don't need him to admit he's a problem, you just need him to KNOW he's a problem...

This removes the memory issue.. You dont' need to hope he remembers or wonder if he's being passive aggressive and just pretending he forgot... You put the guideline right in front of him.

Ever built something from IKEA without the instructions in front of you?

It's a LOT EASIER to stay on TARGET with the instructions right there on the floor while you work isn't it?

WHo knows, he may even call YOU on one of them.. which is FINE.. he's WORKING the program which is what you want.

Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 05:43 PM
Yep: you're exactly right. I don't mind if he calls me out at all. Right now there is not a whole lot of discussion going on about issues but there needs to be soon. Honestly, I don't think he wants to bring anything up because he knows - and the kids have pointed out - that I have worked on every single issue he had with me. He's worked on none other than being willing to have a 30 minute conversation every day.

I haven't pushed it this week since he wanted a week to "see how things were" after my conversation with him last Tues. about moving out or being cooperative/positive. That week is up today so I don't know how it will go now. Actually, he's working late tonight so there might not be a conversation tonight. With taking D to college this weekend, I'm not sure I'm up for another big, stressful event (if he were to move out) this week anyway. If he doesn't bring it up, I may not either right now! lol (Well, you know - as long as he continues to not cross boundaries, which he hasn't.)

With all of the above suggestions, etc... I feel very prepared though, for any conversations that may occur.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 05:59 PM
My advice is :

a. Bring up the 30 min covo
b. Bring up the end of week block

Tell him the following :


I realize you had a very long day so how about we just relax and take the night to watch something funny on TV for a half an hour instead?

Would that make the night easier?

Also the week is up for review and I think we both need a night to process our D going to college tonight. That's just as important. DD doen'st need teh stress of us divorcing right now she's made that clear.

I am gonig to suggest we put the discussion of your cooperation wtih the family off for the night so the whole family can be better prepared.

Just take the night to relax.

We will discuss your participation level here tomorrow if the family is up for it. Right now they don't need it and neither do I.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 06:01 PM
That's really choppy.

My main point was to put him on the defensive.

You let him know you KNOW what the day is

You gave him some consideration for working late

You let him know the whole family is involved in his participation level

You let him know they don't need any further stress from him

All the points you want are in there.. just clean it up a bit...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 08:47 PM
OK. That sounds good.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 09:02 PM
Yup... just be very careful with the wording... Notice I never made it about you vs him.. it was the family always.. always referred to as one unit coming from your voice...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/10/10 11:46 PM
Well, I've decided to go to study group for my test in the morning, so I will probably now be home later than he is! So, we'll see whwhat things are like when I get home. How about:

"It's late so why don't we just relax and watch something together for half an hour instead of trying to fit in the 30 min. conversation. We've both had long days. I know the week in review is up, but perhaps we're better off postponing that discussion. It's a stressful time with school orientations for the boys and getting D off this weekend. I have a lot going on as well and none of us really need added stress right now with talk of leaving and divorce. We can discuss your participation in this family whenever everyone is better prepared this coming week."

Not sure if I want to say we'll talk tomorrow or just "this coming week" because truly, it's better for everyone if we wait until getting D moved. I just can't imagine how terrible it would be if he left and then I had to get her off to school this weekend and he were to want to go as well...
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 12:05 AM
YOu could add the positives of the week to encourage him...

"The family hasn't heard any talk of you leaving or anything negative... everyone feels pretty good right now and that's great given our D is goin to to college and that's difficult... thank you for being a great parent and husband for them right now"

Tell him specific things he DID do as well as thanking him for avoiding the negatives...

Just make ita five minute praise session instead... casual put positive

YOu can praise youself too...

"The family has the hosue in order, i finished up the monthly finances and bookeeping, etc"
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 03:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
YOu could add the positives of the week to encourage him...

"The family hasn't heard any talk of you leaving or anything negative... everyone feels pretty good right now and that's great given our D is goin to to college and that's difficult... thank you for being a great parent and husband for them right now"

Tell him specific things he DID do as well as thanking him for avoiding the negatives...

Just make ita five minute praise session instead... casual put positive

YOu can praise youself too...

"The family has the hosue in order, i finished up the monthly finances and bookeeping, etc"




The only problem I see here is, he DID talk about leaving on Sunday, with the boys. That's when S16 told him he was angry about the Facebook/text issues and S14 found out. SO... that was a negative. There were positives: closing out the FB account, participating in 30 min. talks, going with us to movies/church... leaving cellphone while going to shower. The negatives were the Sunday conversation and his still escaping to XBox a lot as well as when he goes jogging, he doesn't bother to tell anyone. (That's relatively minor though.)
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 12:58 PM
You could focus on the positives i guess... he knows the negatives since his son blasted him lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 04:21 PM
Yeah...and maybe he'll learn that trying to have exclusive discussions with the kids aren't going to get him anywhere!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 05:21 PM
Well, if your kids ALL give him the SAME script and part of that script tells him to work with YOU and stop sharing negatives with THEM yes...

A clear, consistent message to STOP the destructive behaviour from all three will shut him up pretty quickly...

Each time one of them enables him he will do it more
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:03 PM
Yes, which is what I'm trying my hardest to educate them on.

I just had to email H a list of expenses for D for college next week, as well as my own (college expenses) and household expenses upcoming.

I'm worried that this is going to totally overwhelm him and put him back in misery mode! I know I can't do anything about it if it does, but I just hate it. However, avoiding the issue does no good either. SO, I just have to deal with whatever bad mood it puts him in.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:08 PM
To add, because of this, I think it may be best to postpone the other discussion - about his week review time being up and such. I don't see any good coming off having that discussion while he is overwhelmed about finances. We didn't have it last night. When I came home, he was headed out to run. I fell asleep, so we didn't even do our 30 minutes last night.

I'm not afraid to have the discussion, but quite frankly, I just want the next week with my family to be as drama free as possible. I want to have some normalcy while I move my only daughter to college. Does postponing that and not bringing it up if H doesn't make me weak??? I don't want to be. I just want what's best for my family.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:38 PM
I am just wondering what message that tells your husband about a meeting you schedule with him about something that important...

I don't know yet, but you have to be mindful of the message you send... Never mind being weak, how does this change how HE will PERCEIVE you in future exchagnes.. that's the important part

WHy not just mention it so he doen'st think you forgot your point but tell him this is not a good time and the family needs to focus on your DD right now so YOU are postponing the conversation...

and end that by thanking him for all his efforts this week..and list them in detail

I think NOT mentioning it makes him think its not important to you... but YOU know him MUCH better than I do... so you need to think about what he takes away from you not saying anything
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:38 PM
Re the expenses.. WHy do you have to email him the list?

I don't understand why you have to do that...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
I am just wondering what message that tells your husband about a meeting you schedule with him about something that important...

I don't know yet, but you have to be mindful of the message you send... Never mind being weak, how does this change how HE will PERCEIVE you in future exchagnes.. that's the important part

WHy not just mention it so he doen'st think you forgot your point but tell him this is not a good time and the family needs to focus on your DD right now so YOU are postponing the conversation...

and end that by thanking him for all his efforts this week..and list them in detail

I think NOT mentioning it makes him think its not important to you... but YOU know him MUCH better than I do... so you need to think about what he takes away from you not saying anything


That's a good point. We didn't really set up a specific time to discuss, it was more of a general, "Can I have a week" thing. So, I didn't (in my mind) feel like, "next Tuesday night...it's on! LOL

You're right though: he needs to know I'm not going to just bring up stuff in the moment and then not follow through.

I will feel things out and handle it with those points in mind, later tonight.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 10:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Allen A
Re the expenses.. WHy do you have to email him the list?

I don't understand why you have to do that...


He asked me to let him know what the costs were going to be next week for D's college/move in expenses. Because we are both now keeping the budget sheets on our laptops, I felt it best to email him that list so he could add it to his worksheet.

I also wanted him to know what was coming due for utilities, insurance payments as well. I didn't have to do that, but showing him I am fiscally on top of things, I wanted to let him know what was due and exactly when. SO, that was my main goal: to let him know I'm on top of things whether he is or isn't! Is that not good?
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 11:35 PM
I dont want to be a pain in the keester, but you are setting yourself up for some conflict with him doing this...

YOU become the bearer of his bad news... is that a setup you want in the home?

He has issues about finances and you are setup to be the one who now tells him when bad things happen.. He WILL associate you with bad news... He already HAS hasn't he?

Why do you have TWO budget sheets running for the same home?

Why not one that you both update regularly? That way its the SHEET thats the bad news not you.

If he wants to find out what was spent that month he goes to the PC and looks to find out... He doens't wait for an email from you.... big difference...

YOu want to DISTANCE yourself from the negatives .. and finances is a huge one for him isnt' it?

In my home I have a workssheet in excel that I use.. i put it on the server and my wife can look at it anytime she wants. She can add to it or make changes if she likes to... but when she looks at it, I am not there.. its just her and the workseheet.. its not me bringing her the sheet for review...

See the diff? It may be subtle, but psychologicaly it can have a huge impact.

She also maintaines a spreadsheet of maintenance tasks that need done for the hosuehold

a. New windows
b. New roof
c. Paint fence

etc

I don't associate her with the work since its on the sheet... I don't like the sheet, but I use it... but it has nothing to do with her.. she just helps fill it in

see?

I would use ONE sheet that you BOTH update and both look at equally

Don't become the bearer of his bad news
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/11/10 11:39 PM
If your H wants a sheet for his PC at work you tell him he can copy whatever he wants from the household master sheet to his hearts content...

But YOU aren't involved there

YOu update ONE sheet on your home PC and he can go there for it.. I assume there is a household shared computer? Put the master sheet there...

And tell him to update the master sheet regularly.. you don't want him emailing bad news to you either lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 12:17 AM
Ooohhh...I didn't even think about it in such a way but you are SO right. Ugh. NOW I see that!

But...no, right now we do not have a desktop computer. It got a nasty virus and is unusable and each of us has a laptop, so, not a lot of need to get it fixed.

Well, I can't undo the psychological damage today of being the bearer of bad news, but perhaps I can work on a different solution for the future.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 12:20 AM
I will address this later and tell him I don't want to be the emailer of bad news....

Of course, in his mindset, since it's all my fault, I'm not sure it will make a difference but I'll point it out!!!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 12:23 AM
Guess what? My class (Human Growth and Development) is now in the adult stages and has tons of stuff in it about how terrible divorce is for people even when they're the ones who initiate... HMMMM....

Of course, we KNOW this...but here it is, right in a college textbook!
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 03:01 AM
OMG... I just learned that H is not planning on going with us to college town to move D in. Am I crazy? I can't believe he isn't going. He states, "It's a furnished apt. Not much to
move." Ummm....doesn't he want to see where his 18 year old D is going to be living and going to school? Doesn't he want to be a part of this experience? I mean, come on...this is a rite of passage. He doesn't want to miss a day of work Monday to go? Granted, he doesn't get paid when he doesn't work (he contracts) but he can make the hours up. Oh, and he sure didn't mind missing 3 days to go to Vegas!

I'm dumbfounded. This has nothing to do with the M, I just can't believe he is so detached that he sees it as no big deal that he isn't going. This makes me so sad. It's just like her graduation a few months back: in my mind, I picture a husband and wife sharing this bond - these sentiments of pride and a little melancholy - sitting together, holding hands, with their kid graduating and moving on in life. Here my H was, looking like he was ready to leave most of the time. Now he can't see the importance of taking her to school and moving her???

I don't know what to say. Part of me thinks, "Oh well - his loss," yet the other part of me thinks I should try to convince him to go. I don't know why he has to be such an A$$! Then, of course, I ask myself why I want to be married to someone like this! (Well, for my kids sake...of course.)

SIGH

Oh - he didn't seem moody about the money stuff at all, so that was OK. Thank the Lord for small favors there!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 03:53 AM
How about you try to help him understand that his DAUGHTER would like him there?

Stop trying to make him feel something...

My guess is he feels

a. Sad she's leaving
b. Responsability because he has to pay for it
c. Frustrated in general

He likely is going to work to help him process... a LOT of men including myself WORK when we have feelings to wrestle with... we don't want to share them or talk about them lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 03:56 AM
And I would'nt even tell him why you aren't emailing him input anymore...

Just share your laptop with him and let him enter his own info there... you both have access to your laptop, you have no access to his work pc.. it makes no sense to enter information on a laptop only he has access to... does it?

Just tell him you will put the info on your laptop and if he wants it he can get it.. unless you have an issue with sharing laptops with him?

YOu don't want to give him too much analysis when you work with him.. Just do it and leave the rest for him to figure out...

If you tell him you don't want to be mrs bad news he's just going to come up with something negative about that... so don't bother lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 04:04 AM
OK, good point about the bad news and financial info exchange.

My only issue with sharing my laptop is all the articles and so forth I have on divorce busting and saving my marriage. Certainly nothing to hide, but it's not something he should be privvy to either right now.

However, there is the option of just signing on as a guest.

As for D, he claims he already talked to her about it and she's OK with him not going. Well, that's because she's not going to sit there and say, "NO! You need to be there," when he's just told her he's not planning on it. She's not that type. She shouldn't have to ask her father to come along. She's the, "It's OK.." even when it isn't type. (Yeah - she needs to get over that!)

Well, the other possibility is that she also feels he's being a jack-donkey of late and just figures, "Fine! Don't come!" LOL

I don't know. I just feel bad for her! It's actually easier for me if he doesn't come - don't have to put up with his moods. BUT... for her, that's just really sad. I suppose I can try to talk to him again about it. I don't know.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 04:33 AM
You need to talk to her and your eldest son so they learn to share their feelings with their father... The LAST thing you want them doing while he's wayward is shutting him out...

He needs to HEAR his children right now... Them tuning him out is not helpful to your strategy I don't think...

I know they are frustrated, but telling him "it's ok" when she would enjoy him being there is enabling him instead... complicated stuff I know...

I would steer him away from the laptop then... try to get the household pc fixed.

Since finances are such a tense subject for him you really want the ledger used by everyone... if S16 picks up some groceries, ask him to enter info etc...

Get that household PC fixed if you can... just format the hard disk and install the OS fresh

I was thinking about that you wanted to explain to your H about the psychological association you want to avoid...

I don't think he wants you explaining the psychology to him.. it will make him feel like a lab experiment... Its probably just best to tell him what you want to do and do it... no explanation, at least at the behavioural science level lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 01:34 PM
Yes, you are right: H already knows I'm a psych major and have that all in place, no need to hit him with it. Plus, he doesn't really care right now what I feel/don't feel so no use explaining it. Definitely a case of actions speak louder than words! I will make desktop pc a priority!

As for the kids talking about their feelings, you are absolutely right. That seems to be the common thread in our family that needs to be fixed: we're all too concerned about being nice/avoiding conflict so no one says what's really on their minds. I learned this at our weekend retreat too. It still encompasses anger, just inward rather than outward and is still unhealthy, actually - more so! I've got to do a better job of modeling a new behavior here and discussing it with the kids as well.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 06:25 PM
Well, everyone needs to learn the skills to express their feeelings safely, and to hear others' feelings safely.

Most people avoid speaking up because of the likekly storm cloud that follows...

People need to feel safe or they won't speak up...

My guess is there's not a lot of safety between the household there for people TO talk about things..
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 07:24 PM
Until recently I always felt our home a very safe place to talk about things. I have tons of conversations with the kids about things that most parents don't broach and they've always been very open. BUT... we do have this atmostphere of "niceness". Where some families holler and get things out, like it or not, we're all more likely to keep the peace. I like that we have always been respectful and considerate of one another (within the family) yet I know true feelings need to come out as well, even if they are conflicting.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 07:28 PM
OK, so the kids feel safe talking to you
You feel safe talking to all of them? Are you holding back with any of the kids?

I suspect your H doesn't feel safe talking to you, and you likley don't feel safe talking to him either...

How do you think each of your kids feels about talking to him?

The pattern is likley that none of your kids OR you feel safe talking to your H...

If you told him none of them do it may just shock him a bit and wake him up a bit
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/12/10 07:36 PM
Yes. Maybe in the past they would've felt safe talking to him but certainly not right now because they all think he is being stubborn and irrational.

I responded to an email he sent me earlier about the weekend. I mentioned that I was hoping he would reconsider going to college town - that I felt D really wanted him to go and he should think about it - and that he would definitely be useful. I didn't ask for a decision, just mentioned it. He did not reply (of course).
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:30 PM
Update:

Last night was OK. I ran boys around and H came home and we ate dinner and had our 30 minute nightly stress-free conversation about our days. I'd had a good day at school and with my neighbor so it was nice to be able to share that. I talked to H once again about the college trip and he is still not budging. I just don't get why he won't go. I mean, for me, if there was an INKLING that my child wanted me there, no matter how practical or not practical, I would be there! That's just not H, at least not right now. The thing is, if it were just about work, he can make up those hours the rest of the week.

I don't know. Part of me thinks there has to be some undercurrent here of why he doesn't want to go: he's resentful, maybe, of the money spent on her when "he's so unhappy" or he doesn't want to be a part of the family thing perhaps? Both boys are going and wouldn't miss it for the world! They want to see their sister's new apt and where she'll be, etc... I hate to mindread, but maybe he's trying to separate himself already because he is planning on leaving as soon as he can financially do so.

So, here is the question of the morning: Do I have a conversation with him about all of the above or do I leave him alone about the whole matter? My instincts say just leave it alone, but that may be part of my conflict-avoider self. The main reason I would gravitate towards having a conversation about it is because of my D and not wanting her to feel crappy about her father not being part of this occasion! From a personal perspective, I don't really care if he comes or not. In fact, if he's going to come and be a grouch, better not to come! (D did recently reveal to me that she too felt cheated out of a "normal" graduation experience. She knew her dad was acting weird and it was just all strange and not right....)

I know that I have the ability to push H away further if I try to force going on him. I also know that maybe it's better if D tries to persuade him to go but I just don't know that she will. I'm tempted to remind him of something he said months ago. A coworker of his died unexpectedly (at 28) in a car crash and he talked then about how precious life is and how you can't take people and moments for granted... That he'd turned down lunch the last day he saw him with this guy because he was "too busy" and that he'd never be too busy again...

WOuld it be a mistake to remind him of this???

I just need some help with my thought process this morning I guess! lol
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:34 PM
Just ask him

Tell him his daugther would love for him to be there, and him NOT being there is NOT giving her a lot of confidence right now...

Did it ever occur to you he may just not want to say good bye?

This may be harder on him than you think?
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:41 PM
I did ask him but he still seemed to think it's not necessary. I assume you mean just ask him to go??? Or, if you mean ask him why he doesn't want to, he's already said: not necessary - not enough to get done - claims D says it's ok if he doesn't go - missing work, etc...

H is so disconnected and detached, I don't think it's because he can't say goodbye. In his mind, it's just not that big a deal. He thinks she'll be home in a week or two anyway and there will be plenty of opportunities for him to see her place, etc...

Remember - H is the one who doesn't even talk with his family these days much. He has no connectedness "gene"... I wish it were that it's harder on him than I think but I honestly do not believe that's it. At least that would show he has some emotion!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:48 PM
Hold on.. WHAT are you asking him?

Are you asking him why he isn't going or how does he FEEL about his daughter moving away to college?

And just because it isn't necessary doens't mean it won't be a fatherly thing to do

Ask him point blank "OK, so your idea of being a father is only doing the bare minimum and what's absolutely necessary?"
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:50 PM
OH, I gotcha. I thought you meant just ask him to go or just ask him why he doesn't want to go.

I DID try to get that point across - that it's not just a technical "need to go" thing, but fatherly... he still didn't seem to get it. Didn't budge on it.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:51 PM
BUT... that's probably the conversation we need to have: how does he feel about her going. That may lead to the real reason he's not going. I can even tell him that he is guilty of the 4 horseman: STONEWALLING!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:54 PM
Yup... My concern is the attitude that he only has to do what's necessary...

He is miserable and wants to escape his family because he's not happy, but he's only willing to participate if its absolutely necessary?

Tell him to do the math.

Tell him "Gee, and you wonder why you're miserable..."
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 02:58 PM
well, exactly! That's been his attitude for over 3 months now - part of the MLC or whatever. He's willing to step over that a little and say, go to the movies or dinner with the family - but anything out of his comfort zone of willingness and he can't go beyond it.

SO: do I try to get D to discuss it with him first or do I just do it? D would have a hard time but may be able to write a letter to him. No, I know that's not preferred, but that's the only way she feels safe in talking with him and can bring herself to do it, she says.
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 03:00 PM
Just to add: I can actually relate somewhat. When I was in deep depression, that's all I could bring myself to do: what was necessary and not much more...whether around the house or whatever. SO, I do have some patience for that even though I know from experience how unhealthy it is! Of course, for me it was chemical. For him, it's a choice. Well, or lack of choice: lack of choosing to commit to the success of the M and family.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 03:19 PM
If she wants to write him a letter saying she really wishes he would be there and that it would mean a lot to him that would likley help... You don't want to be the hosuehold nag here and your H is putting you in that role...
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 03:22 PM
Yeah, I know and I've gone all my adult life NOT being a nag because that's all my mother ever did and does: nag, nag, nag - everyone, everywhere, all the time! It's miserable.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 03:42 PM
Just don't let your H steer you into roles he will perceive negatively later on... which is what he does... He leaves you do to something and then when you do it he blames you for it lol
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 04:12 PM
I know! And stupid me...I fall right into that trap and go with it.

I talked with D and she is going to talk or text or email H about it. She DOES want him to go. I explained the importance of her telling him vs me for several reasons. 1. It'll be better coming from her and takes me out of the middle. 2. She needs to learn to express her feelings anyway - because that's healthy for her.

She said she would probably text or email him since he's at work and will probably need to let the office know today - rather than waiting to talk to him when he gets home. It's hard to have a phone conversation with H when he's at work, but I told her that would be best if she could manage it.
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/13/10 11:21 PM
Yes, this will also help the family as a whole with his waywardness... your kids have alot more influence over him than they give themselves credit for... And inviting him to be involved in things makes a big difference...

The last thing you want them doing is shutting him out when he's wrestling for a reason to stay with the marriage
Posted By: SunnyD Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/14/10 04:55 AM
Well, she tried. She told him she wanted him to go and he told her he wanted to go, but didn't think he could miss work. That's such bs: he could work 10 hour days Tues - Friday and miss on Monday but he just won't do it. Makes me mad. The 3 of us did go to the movies together tonight. He got her a plant for her apt. He did tell her maybe he'd come up another weekend soon, but I still can't believe he isn't going.

It's going to be so emotional for me! I'm sure going to miss her. Would be nice if I had some emotional support through that, but of course I won't from him. She and I are very close.

But yes - the kids have more affect on him that I do right now!
Posted By: Allen A Re: REALLY need some help today, Please! - 08/14/10 04:57 AM
Yup, so get them to lean on him.. they are your exposure group right now... you stay back and let them hold his feet to the fire
Hi -- Please start a new thread. This thread is getting a bit too long, so I'm locking it. Shorter threads improve the speed and flow of this online community.

Thanks.
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