Situation in brief from Post “Any Advice?”:
2/20/10
Wife of 17 years says she's unhappy and wants separation/divorce. Wife moved in with parents and returned for one night a week later before returning to parents again. Have had suspicions of EA for a year. Found excessive phone calls and text messaging after wife moved out. Have tried various ways including DB to get wife to return to work on marriage. No luck. Wife gave many reasons for leaving but no mention of affair.
4/19/10
Got email from wife of guy I suspected having EA with my wife. He separated from his wife around same time my wife did me. His wife said her husband and my wife had not just EA but PA. The wife's description of her husband wasn't flattering. No job, little education, history of credit card debt, and emotional/maturity/trust issues. Plus, his wife suspected he was having other EA's or PA's as well with other women. Even worse, guy was going to be moving in with my wife who had recently rented apartment in neighboring town.
4/21/10
Confronted my wife with new info from guy's wife. My wife didn't deny having feelings for guy. Didn't get into specifics about whether just EA or PA since both are bad and my wife is now living with this guy.
In many ways I still love my wife and want to be her friend. I had even hoped that we might reconcile during our separation but before divorce, but this info and turn of events changes things. Any advice based on this limited info?
After hearing from OM's wife on Monday, who exposed the full extent of my wife's affair with OM to me, I confronted my wife on Wednesday. She didn't deny that they were moving in together and that she had feelings for OM, even though we've only been separated eight weeks. Didn't bother questioning her whether EA or PA because both are bad, especially when combined with the fact that my wife and OM are now living together. I'm sure it's both.
Debated but decided to "out" my wife to her two best friends and to her parents. One best friend believed me and the OM's wife, but the other best friend and her parents seem to still be giving my wife the benefit of the doubt, perhaps even defending her (especially the other best friend). I thought this would happen (as happens to others apparently because I just read the "Exposure" thread and saw where other people are blamed when its their spouses who are having affairs). Don't know whether I should bother contacting the OM.
When my wife left me, even when I thought she had just had an EA, I still hoped that we might reconcile during our separation. Now that I know she's kept so much from me, and that she's now living with the OM, I don't know if I would want that if given the opportunity. I don't think I will be because the wife really has shown no remorse, regret, or willingness to work on our marriage.
I've had no contact with my wife since Wednesday. I'm thinking that's the way I should keep it for a while. On the other hand, if I'm to believe some of the details about OM given to me by his wife, he's not a great catch, and so I still worry about my wife's well-being while she's with him. Should I try to be friends with her just to keep tabs on her? I personally think she's gotten more than she bargained for, even though she thinks that what she wants for now.
Funny you should call OM a predator because that's exactly what I think and what one of my wife's best friends thinks, too. Unfortunately, her other best friend doesn't, and I'm not sure what her parents think at the moment. I haven't heard from them after I shared all this information with them. My wife already seems to have ended her friendship with the best friend who thinks the way you do, which is predictable, even though this best friend hasn't said anything directly to my wife about her affair. I've been my wife's protector/guardian/etc. for 17 years, and it's hard to not do that now. You're right, though. I have to step way back and concentrate on me now. Thanks so much.
I've exposed my wife's affair, which consists of her now living with OM only eight weeks after we've been separated, to her two best friends and her parents. Only one best friend believes me and thinks it's wrong, the other either doubts or defends my wife. Don't know what her parents think.
Do I expose the affair to our other friends and co-workers now? We've not told many people we are separated, and, making it worse, we work at the same place, although my wife is looking for a new job. If I do expose, what should I say? I want to take the high road as much as possible, even if my wife hasn't.
My question for this topic:
If I’m now doing the LRT because of the above situation, and having no contact with my WS except for legal and financial reasons, won’t my WS simply attach even more to her AP, especially since they’re now living together and my WS says she has such strong feelings for him? Doesn’t this make matters worse, even if it’s for my own sanity and protection?
Thanks!
And another question: WS keeps suggesting there were issues in our marriage that, when she began to have feelings for OM, made her question our marriage even more. Is this her way of not taking responsibility? Should I bother even addressing this with her now, given the situation? Thanks.
My question for this topic:
If I’m now doing the LRT because of the above situation, and having no contact with my WS except for legal and financial reasons, won’t my WS simply attach even more to her AP, especially since they’re now living together and my WS says she has such strong feelings for him? Doesn’t this make matters worse, even if it’s for my own sanity and protection?
Possibly, especially short-term. But it's still the best strategy, as it's proven.
My advice to you is still the same as I recommended before:
time to pull waaaaayyyyy back.Puppy
And another question: WS keeps suggesting there were issues in our marriage that, when she began to have feelings for OM, made her question our marriage even more. Is this her way of not taking responsibility? Should I bother even addressing this with her now, given the situation? Thanks.
This is typical wayward "script." It's called "re-writing of marital history," and it's common in nearly 100% of affairs. It's a justification/rationalization thing.
Puppy
Yes, LRT does allow your W and OM to have full access and bond. BUT she won't be getting any of her needs met by you so she relies on getting them all met by OM. As usual, they tend to "affair down" so she will find out that he isn't what she thought. She will miss you and reach out. Don't fall for it unless she has ended the R with OM.
LRT also puts you in a very strong position and she sees you won't put up with an A. It is best that LRT start early on, in my opinion based on what I have read, but don't expect her to end it in a few weeks. It could take 6 months or more....
Great job exposing and doing all the right things right away!!!
Thanks for the advice PDT and newmama.
As I'm now pulling way back as PDT suggests, and only talking about financial and legal matters with my wife, should I bother addressing any marriage relationship issues with her at all? Or, is it pointless while she's still in her own little affair world?
Thanks again!
And another question: WS keeps suggesting there were issues in our marriage that, when she began to have feelings for OM, made her question our marriage even more. Is this her way of not taking responsibility? Should I bother even addressing this with her now, given the situation? Thanks.
This is typical wayward "script." It's called "re-writing of marital history," and it's common in nearly 100% of affairs. It's a justification/rationalization thing.
Puppy
Quote from Phil McGraw :
It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.
You mostly need to understand that your wife is ADDICTED and as a result is NOT THINKING RATIONALLY.
IGNORE her BS... she has no idea how to think clearly right now and her decisions are driven by addiction/excitement... not by logic.
It's BS... You won't be able to convince her of that right now...
But you CAN use this to confirm that YOU are NOT crazy.
You COULD try to explain this to her friend who supports this nonsense.. Her FRIEND is NOT addicted, she's just an idiot...
When I was a wayward 10 years ago, the more time I spent with my "girlfriend", the further the divide I created to my wife. It was hard to talk to me because the feelings to my "girlfriend" were real. So you could not convince me. In retro-spect what would have saved that marriage was a violent breaking of the affair. With no girlfriend, I would have been forced to look at my position. Yes I would be mad, and my pride would be hurt some. I probably would have went to my wife at the time, because it would have been cheaper, less painful ( save for my pride ), and made the most since.
The affair is very powerful.
Attempts to talk to me, be nice to me, to try to bring me back would not work on me as a wayward. For while it didn't create a larger divide, I was still looking for next time I could get to my OW. In some WAS, attempts to be generous, to woo back further the gap and create a greater resentment.
Also looking from the wayward position, anyone you complain about your relationship to. Or that you like to spend time with that you just can't stand to spend with your spouse, is getting closer than your spouse.
Looking from the wayward position. The 180, the GAL and "affair bursting" will give the best chance at recovering the relationship. The affair has to be broken.
Waywards rationalize alot of things, and some of it their mind does for them.
When I was a wayward 10 years ago, the more time I spent with my "girlfriend", the further the divide I created to my wife. It was hard to talk to me because the feelings to my "girlfriend" were real. So you could not convince me. In retro-spect what would have saved that marriage was a violent breaking of the affair. With no girlfriend, I would have been forced to look at my position. Yes I would be mad, and my pride would be hurt some. I probably would have went to my wife at the time, because it would have been cheaper, less painful ( save for my pride ), and made the most since.
The affair is very powerful.
Attempts to talk to me, be nice to me, to try to bring me back would not work on me as a wayward. For while it didn't create a larger divide, I was still looking for next time I could get to my OW. In some WAS, attempts to be generous, to woo back further the gap and create a greater resentment.
Also looking from the wayward position, anyone you complain about your relationship to. Or that you like to spend time with that you just can't stand to spend with your spouse, is getting closer than your spouse.
Looking from the wayward position. The 180, the GAL and "affair bursting" will give the best chance at recovering the relationship. The affair has to be broken.
DLS, if you ever do decide to start your own thread, I think we just read the lede of its first post.
Puppy
Puppy,
Just remember my recounts as a wayward were a completely different relationship than my current.
However, in looking at it from that viewpoint, I see how pesky and oblivious those waywards can be.
My thread is much crazer than Officer In Need and James217. I have to figure out how to fit it, because its LONG.
Thanks all for the advice and reassurances. I'll continue with LRT if for no other reason than to save my sanity and myself. Love the Dr. Phil quote. Can't wait to hear how WS and OM like a real-life relationship with real-world responsibilities. It's like they're two children playing a dress-up fantasy game now.
Outside of family and a couple very close friends, no one knows the true story behind our separation. Do you recommend telling other friends and co-workers when they eventually ask? Thanks.
First off, its not "telling"
Not to be picky, but "telling" makes YOU sound like a RAT and that's NOT what's happening.
Expose.. WELL... to anyone who you think may put pressure on your partner to end their affair.
Don't just expose that they are cheating.. Get the key points in :
1. Infidelity is addictive and destructive - it has no long term hope
2. Infidelity is hurting me and our family
3. I would like you to support our MARRIAGE and exclude WS and OP from any interaction from you until they stop carrying on this way
4. I want my marriage saved and will not lower myself to their level - please support my marriage and stay out of the mess they are creating for themselves
Question for the experts here:
I understand sending a strong message with LRT and NC in a situation such as mine when the affair couple is in the affair fog and living together.
But, what about the article on this site about the guy who stayed his wife's best friend while they were separated and she was with OM? It's called "While Your Wife Decides" I think.
His story seems to suggest another route to take. Which is right? Thanks.
There is no "right way"
The right way is the way that works. Unfortunately you won't know what works until you try...
This is an experimental process...
Some people cannot stomach what that guy did... some people find this terribly disrespectful and incredibly painful.
That article also doesn't cover children... what about if children are involved? Should you be showing them this sort of exercise? Walk all over people because you can get away with it?
Sorry LMW, but this is a very delicate process and there are a variety of approaches, some softball like the example you reference, others hardball.
There is an argument to be made about timing too.
If you can expose this affair and put it to an end in 3 months, or enable the affair to continue, keep it a secret and watch your partner with another man/woman for over a year until it ends.. which would you choose?
There are arguments to be made that the long term battle is far too costly and ending the affair quickly is much more desirable... some argue this does too much damage in the short term...
There is no specific approach or process anyone can confirm 100% will work for you, or for anyone.
There are patterns and hundreds of case studies...
On this forum there is a distinct division between a hardball approach and a softball approach much like the one you quoted above.
There are infidelity experts that argue infidelity is an addiction, and any support for that affair is enablement and NOT helpful at all.
There are many viewpoints, experts, and a variety of case studies...
I tried softball myself for over a year and got nowhere with it... once I started to play hardball and ACT, and bring down CONSEQUENCES for betrayal that's when CHANGE for the BETTER started to happen...
I got ill, very ill... lost 30 pounds (and I only weigh 160 so that's a LOT of weight to lose)...
Right or wrong isn't the question, its what are you prepared to do, and what cost are you willing to expend to end this affair?
Question for the experts here:
I understand sending a strong message with LRT and NC in a situation such as mine when the affair couple is in the affair fog and living together.
But, what about the article on this site about the guy who stayed his wife's best friend while they were separated and she was with OM? It's called "While Your Wife Decides" I think.
His story seems to suggest another route to take. Which is right? Thanks.
I disagree with that approach, and have personally never seen it work. It enables the cheater, and emasculates the left-behind husband.
Puppy
Puppy,
Does the same apply to a gender reverse in your opinion? That is, are left-behind wives just as open to esmasculation? Do men like a woman who knows her boundaries, sticks up for herself, and plays hard ball?
Women have a lot of difficulty feeling attracted to a man they cannot respect. Men who play the meek mouse and let his wife and another man march all over him and make a nightmare of his marriage and a joke of his home don't get a lot of respect from women... There are men on this forum who have tried softball approaches and women on this forum have BLASTED them for being so meek on the issue.
I would think this would be the case for men to a smaller degree... I don't think a woman who plays softball and lets her husband walk all over her will score many points with the WS male either... though yes there is a difference, I can't see it making over much difference.
Respect and love are interrelated to a degree... Long term, unless they are seriously ill, your spouse will look on you with respect and love... or disdain and bitterness.
Short term men and even women can ignore the importance of character and integrity, but I can't fathom that lasting long unless BOTH people are seriously ill.
Puppy,
Does the same apply to a gender reverse in your opinion? That is, are left-behind wives just as open to esmasculation? Do men like a woman who knows her boundaries, sticks up for herself, and plays hard ball?
I think it's especially hard on men, but I think it's devastating both both sexes to sit idly by and wait for the cheating spouse to choose them.
No, men do not like weak, needy women. At least not emotionally healthy men!
Now, if a woman can convey a strong sense of "I've decided to stand for my marriage, and my patience isn't without its limits. I don't want a divorce, but nor am I going to allow you to disrespect me and our family by doing X, Y and Z," and then lays out some good strong boundaries for X, Y and Z, then I think the "standing" thing can be pulled off without conveying weakness. But in my estimation of studying these things, I'd say maybe 15-20% of women come across successfully this way, and the other 80-85% come off as weak doormats.
Puppy
i have not read the entire post, just going to give you my opinion based on what happened to me:
if i could do it all again, i would not have pulled back as i did. i pulled back without even knowing what divorce busting was. i said, if he wants to up and move out, let him, im not chasing him. let him miss me, let him wonder. yeah well, that didnt work. it allowed his relationship with psycho ow grow deeper and deeper.
did he come back to me? yes he did. did he leave again? yes he did.
but he did say something to me that sticks in my head, he said, "i didnt see you fighting for me when i first left."
i didnt know at the time of his affair, i wish i had the courage to see it and face it. had i done that, im sure it would have ended although i cant say it would have saved our marriage or that he wouldnt have done it again.
i think you did the right thing exposing it. i think how u go from here depends on how you normally handle things and i cant give the right answer to this.
i was a doormat it seems. as much as i didnt think so, i let him do as he pleased. in the end, no one likes a doormat.
Update: Need some advice and reassurance, please. About 2.5 months since our separation, and about 2.5 weeks since I found out W moved in with OM and decided to try NC. No indication from W during entire time that she's interested in reconciliation. I'm ambivalent myself. Part of me wants to try R; part of me doesn't. Should I continue NC? By doing NC, I've not been able to present a positive image of myself to W because there's no interaction. Should I accept that friendship is probably the only possible outcome for us? Thanks for all your help.
2.5 weeks is nothing, it's but a BLIP.
STAY THE COURSE. DBing is measured in MONTHS, not in WEEKS.
Puppy
True, and I've read on these forums that it can take a while. I didn't know how significant the fact that my W has shown absolutely no interest in R in 2.5 months was. Other people on these forums sometimes have an ambivalent WS who can't make up their mind if they want to be with spouse or OP. And I have to keep reminding myself that NC is counterintuitive. You'd think I should be contacting my W trying to put my best foot forward, but that'd just let her have the best of both worlds.
One more quick question, please: Do I just keep going forward with the divorce arrangements (finances, etc.) assuming it's going to happen? Thanks.
One more quick question, please: Do I just keep going forward with the divorce arrangements (finances, etc.) assuming it's going to happen? Thanks.
Yes, but I certainly wouldn't lead the charge, if being D'd isn't what you want.
There's a difference between "commitment" and "compliance." You do have to comply, but your wayward wife is the one committed to running hell-bent away from her marriage and family. Let her lead the D charge.
Puppy
PDT: I let her lead the charge toward D the first two months. Nothing much was done, which was fine with me. When I found out the full story of her A and that she was moving in with OM, I decided to take the D lead with a lawyer because she obviously was not turning toward me but away from me. I felt I needed to protect myself in the long run. My W makes more money than me, and we just had a conversation about splitting our finances. I don't think she liked my suggestions, which were not unfair, because she became a little angry. I think she thinks I'm trying to take advantage of her, but I really think she's worried about how she's going to support her OM, whom I don't tnink has a job.
WS's very often use anger to control their spouse.
The LBS asks for something
The WS gets angry
The LBS worries the WS may leave them for good
The LBS then falls over backwards to please the WS
The WS stops being angry
The LBS then feels more hopeful
Its classic enablement... Very often duing the DB process your spouse will show ANGER... you have to learn to accept it and NOT let that control you.
If they want something unreasonable and get angry, just LET THEM... don't back down on that or they will keep using that tactic to manipulate you
WS's very often use anger to control their spouse.
The LBS asks for something
The WS gets angry
The LBS worries the WS may leave them for good
The LBS then falls over backwards to please the WS
The WS stops being angry
The LBS then feels more hopeful
Its classic enablement... Very often duing the DB process your spouse will show ANGER... you have to learn to accept it and NOT let that control you.
If they want something unreasonable and get angry, just LET THEM... don't back down on that or they will keep using that tactic to manipulate you
Allan A,
Here goes a classic WAS script:
LBS asks for "need" which hasn't been met by WAS in a long time
WAS gets angry, deflects and blame LBS for being selfish
LBS tries again, being reasonable mentioning "this need hasn't been met in X long"
WAS gets angrier, chopping down LBS hopes
LBS backs down rejected
WAS was getting that "need" met outside the R.
WAS's usually get angry when you ask or demand them to meet a standard requirement of marriage. WAS is usually happy when LBS picks up much more "yoke" of the load than they should take so they can get more pleasure out of their "cake eating".
While WAS is "cake eating" they obviously do not want to be bothered with their marriage.
Yes, but my point is that LMW needs to be careful of the response to their WS` anger.
The default response is to go gentler or back off entirely... during an AFFAIR, this is NOT constructive :
I don't think she liked my suggestions, which were not unfair, because she became a little angry. I think she thinks I'm trying to take advantage of her, but I really think she's worried about how she's going to support her OM, whom I don't tnink has a job.
LMW, IGNORE the anger, they WILL use that to manipulate you into being a doormat if they can.
I am NOT saying be impossible and beligerent back, but I am saying that if you are confident you are being fair, do NOT back down from the anger and do NOT mirror it... just IGNORE the TONE of what WS is saying and stick to your guns... WS will stop showing anger once they see it isn`t working.
You all are being great sources of help and inspiration during this trying time.
During NC, if the WS brings up something about our marriage and her feelings, sends an e-mail, for example, should I engage and respond, or ignore and continue not talking about our relationship or her affair?
I don't want to pressure and push her away, but I don't want to miss a chance to talk about issues that might lead to healing and reconciliation.
Thanks.
My .02:
"Under the circumstances, I am uncomfortable with this conversation. It is way too painful"
Maybe not the 2nd sentence.
Bringing up R talk is a WS toe-in for cake-eating. Unless they preface it with: I am no longer involved w/ OP.
Validate, don't try to use her sharing something as an excuse to go into fix-it mode. Do NOT try to make her see the light. Do NOT make it about you. I'm assuming she shared something that hurt...
"W, that must be so hard for you. I can see why that would be painful. I'm so sorry I contributed to that pain."
You all are being great sources of help and inspiration during this trying time.
During NC, if the WS brings up something about our marriage and her feelings, sends an e-mail, for example, should I engage and respond, or ignore and continue not talking about our relationship or her affair?
I don't want to pressure and push her away, but I don't want to miss a chance to talk about issues that might lead to healing and reconciliation.
Thanks.
INSUFFICIENT DATA.
This is why I believe in continuing intel. When such a note is TRUE OUTREACH, it should be responded to sincerely. When it's gaslighting/deflection/deceit, it should either be ignored or respond with a "I wish I could believe that right now," or some such.
When I read back on my detailed journal for when my wife was going thru her affair, and I see how much of what she says was flat-out DECEPTION, and think about if I had responded to it as if it were TRUTH??? . . .
Frightening.
If you're not sure which it is, a vague "I agree; this is hard on all of us right now" or some such is always appropriate.
Puppy
Thanks, all. A little more info.:
Right after we separated, we talked about reasons for W's unhappiness with our marriage and herself. Then I discovered A and realized she was blaming marriage and escaping thru A.
While talking about finances yesterday, she reiterated her unhappiness with her life the past few years (a lot of work pressures, etc.).
What she doesn't see yet is having and continuing A isn't the best solution to her unhappiness. It brought feelings of infatuation and excitement but has only made more trouble for her, imo (she's now helping to support two households, the OM may not have a job, and she's got a longer commute to work b/c she chose to live in another town).
I think in her mind she thought leaving me would make her life easier, but it's only made it more difficult.
I asked my latest questions because I didn't know if engaging in dialogue with her about what she said yesterday would do any good. I did send her a short line similar to the ones suggested but didn't know if something longer was appropriate while doing NC.
Thanks again.
People in affairs are ADDICTS. To the extent that "engaging in dialog" with an addict will yield fruitful insights, then yeah -- it'll work.
You're more likely to get blameshifting, gaslighting and deceit. Not a real problem in and of itself, if the betrayed spouse SEES it as that, but the problem is, many LBSs take the convo to heart, start adjusting their strategy, and making all kinds of DBing mistakes.
In my opinion.
Puppy
Think you are exactly right. Glad I responded with only a few sentences like the ones suggested above.
Quick update & a few questions:
Still doing LRT & NC with WS, except for brief exchanges about legal and financial separation matters. Based only on cell phone records, I assume WS & OM are still together and living together in nearby city. WS is reluctant to address the situation directly, most likely out of guilt.
A close friend of WS has noticed flashes of WS's "old" self before affair fog. What does it look like when a WS comes out of the fog?
I'm DBing and GALing and moving ahead with my life. I'd like to show WS how well I'm doing and how I'm not waiting on her if she doesn't want to remain married to me. Should I do that? How do I do that and still do LRT and NC? It's hard to show WS what she's missing if I'm never in contact with her.
Thanks as always.
What does it look like when a WS comes out of the fog?
Like the woman you use to know.
Quick update:
Continuing LRT & NC w/ WS.
W has contacted me a few times via e-mail or text but only to ask divorce-related questions. She stopped by our house today (she's living elsewhere, supposedly with OM, but I'm not certain about that anymore) again to discuss divorce. Have been GALing myself.
Being only three months since the bomb drop, I still have a lot of anger inside and things I'd like to say to WS about her affair, betrayal, deception, etc.
It's my understanding, however, that DB says I shouldn't talk about our relationship or her affair b/c that might be construed as pressuring, etc., by WS. Is that correct?
I'd love to let all these feelings out in her direction, but I don't want to appear weak or like I can't move on without her. Any advice?
Thanks.
There IS an alternative viewpoint to MWD...
My vote is for heavy exposure... stop enabling her secret affairs... bring shame into her life for a bit and see if that shakes things up...
EXPOSE the affair
Thanks, Allen A. I've exposed W's affair to my parents, her parents, her best friend, and two of our very good friends. I've been debating whether to expose to more people, like a few more good friends. I just read your post on another thread about exposure and may follow that advice since you seem to think it'd be a good thing.
Exposure CAN help...
The best test to determine if it would help you is this
Ask yourself
"Would my spouse be UPSET if I exposed what my spouse and OP are doing to me, themselves, our marriage, and our family?"
If your spouse will be upset, that means they do NOT WANT you to expose their affair... It means that they are VULNERABLE THERE...
So you HIT THAT .... HARD
PS : Share your exposure script here if you can... we can evaluate your exposure efforts better if we know what you are saying specifically
LMW,
Have you ever thought about what you're going to do and treat your W AFTER you've exposed.
One of the many problems that I see on the boards are that people go expose to everyone who will listen, but don't have a clue as to what to do after. Are you prepared to deal with the anger, resentment, etc? If your goal is to save the M, what steps are you going to do afterwards to attract your W back?
After you expose, she's going believe that you can't be "trusted" even though she was the one who did the cheating. How are you going to re-establish that "trust"?
If your goal isn't to save the M you shouldn't expose.
Also, be prepared to deal with an angry lawyer if you are in the middle of a D.
It didn't quite work for me, other than to facilitate a settlement when I subpoenaed OM to show up in court with her family.
Nice
Exposure's success is heavilly dependent on the maturity level of the exposure community...
if you and your spouse hang out all day with overgrown children with paycheques, don't expect any adultlike support...
On the surface my spouse doesn't seem to care. She feels like she's made the right decision and claims to be happy. She says I should tell whomever I must whatever I want to because she's comfortable with her decision to exit our marriage for the OM. Since I've only told our families, her two best friends, and my best friend, it's hard to say if she really means what she says about not caring. Maybe she would care if I exposed to more people.
She did tell me her father isn't speaking to her, and I know her mother isn't very pleased with her behavior either, even though they still talk on the phone. One of her best friends doesn't have much contact with her anymore, and I'm not sure about the other one. There is another mutual friend that I could expose to that would put more pressure on the affair.
Given that my WS hasn't changed her mind yet about wanting a divorce, and that I've been doing LRT and maintaining NC except for separation/divorce business, I figured I'd continue with that. I'd love to rebuild friendship and even marriage with wife, but, don't forget that WS is living apart from me now, supposedly with OM. Until she leaves him, isn't LRT the best course to take? I don't want her to have the best of both worlds.
Thanks for the continued advice.
Until she leaves him, isn't LRT the best course to take?
Yes. So don't do this:
She says I should tell whomever I must whatever I want to because she's comfortable with her decision to exit our marriage for the OM.
That is, do not have exposure discussions with her. Anything beyond, "I am fighting for our marriage, I am doing everything I can to save it and you from a huge disaster", shouldn't be discussed with her.
Thanks for clarifying. I don't think we talked about exposure. She assumed I would tell people and feels bold enough to say something like that. She's still in the addiction/fog stage, I believe.
If she's not concerned about exposure she has likely already run a smear campaign on you... That's what they usually do as a pre-emptive strike against them looking like the bad guy...
And then as I understand it, all we can do is wait for it to end.
Or not wait for it to end and walk away ourselves.
I don't think she's spoken too badly about me to others. We actually work together (on separate floors), and I haven't picked up on any negative vibes from anyone.
If anything, she's told a few people that our marriage wasn't working and that she wasn't happy. In other words, she blames our marriage. In her mind, her feelings for OM, in her words, "shown a light" on the fact that she couldn't stay married anymore.
Like so many others, she gave me the ILYBINILWY line. She may not "feel" love for me now, but I honestly believe she still cares a great deal for me. She felt a lot of guilt after she first left 3 months ago, and guilt has always been the number one emotion that's plagued her over the years, but I think some of her guilt has subsided since leaving. She thinks she's happier now, especially since she's got OM and they're still in the "it's all good" stage of the affair (which probably started as an EA online about a year ago).
She's a peculiar woman. She may still be in the fog, but she very well may be completely serious and certain about her choices. She's always been mostly an all-or-nothing person, and, when she makes up her mind about something, she rarely changes it.
Of course, one could say she changed her mind about being married to me after 17 years, so anything can happen in the future. She could change her mind again.
I'm preparing for either outcome. I'm GALing and moving on as if the divorce will happen, but I'd also at least consider reconciling if she were to leave OM and want to try again. So far she's not given any indication that she wants anything of than a divorce. Since she's still in contact with OM, I'm still doing LRT.
You all continue to be a source of strength. Thanks for your help.
LightMyWay, infidelity is NOT the same thing as a romantic relationship.. Its an addictive relationship between your wife, and a fantasy.
Your wife is addicted to the high of the affair and the excitement that comes from sneaking around, lying, the taboo of it all... Affair couples success rates long term are less than 1%.
Your wife, in short, is DELUDED.
She further does NOT understand what commitment means... Your post above makes it sound as if you have given up and are extending respect for her affair and her current life arrangements... Don't do that... Your wife's emotions come from your energy and the messages you extend to the community.
If you maintain she's cheating and harming herself, you, and her family it will wear on her over time.
Read the article below from Penny
-------------------------
Love As An Excuse For Infidelity
Penny R. Tupy 2003
So often in my work with spouses whose mates are in the midst of an affair I hear the anguished fear that because he or she claims to be, "in love" with the affair partner, it must mean that the marriage is over and the cheating lovers are meant to be together. Soulmates - because they now feel the intense passion of a fantasy relationship.
But of course they are, "in love." That's what an affair is. It's what the addiction is. It's an emotional response (without rationality, commitment or long term thinking) that causes us to do things that are not in our best interests and that hurt other people and destroy what we have worked hard to build in our lives - things like homes and families.
The idea that love should be the deciding factor is any of this is completely erroneous. As is the idea that love is some magical chemistry between two people. It's neither of those things. Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
The interesting thing about new infatuation/love is that we are blinded by the offensive or objectionable things at first. I think the pleasure of having needs met by someone new captures our attention to the point that we block out the less desirable traits. But like any addiction, what worked at first to create a high soon becomes not enough - we want more. When that happens in romantic relationships the irritating things seem to grow in proportion as the pleasure from getting needs met slackens. Unless real change takes place at this time - unless the real work of building a relationship kicks in - romantic love will wane.
This is when the instinct to demand more, to be rude or even to lose our tempers takes over. This is when the internal shift from, "You are so wonderful, what can I do for you," to "You aren't doing enough for me and I'm not willing to do anything for you - you jerk," occurs. This is where real marriage happens, when we move from - feeling like it- to making the commitment to doing what it takes to craft a truly connected and compatible relationship. This is where real love is grown.
For those, who have never honored commitment when the going got tough this is where they begin to bail. So, yes, I am sure that affair partners are in love. Does that mean it's the right place for them or that they have met 'the one'? Of course not. It means that they are in the habit of going for the feeling rather than committing to doing the work of making a truly successful relationship. Unless something greatly changes for these men and women, they will do the same again, and again. They will not find lasting happiness until they get it that marriage is more than feeling. Being in love is important, but staying there is what separates the men from the boys.
Be an advocate for marriage. When you hear of infidelity, take a stand. Refuse to condone affairs and "friendships" that threaten the integrity of the marriage bond. Educate your friends and families on the seriousness of becoming involved outside the marriage. Love is not an excuse for betrayal and abandonment. Love based on that foundation is like a house built on sand.
All the best,
Penny
I completely agree that W is addicted and deluded.
I suppose part of me has given up, meaning I'm trying to move on since she's shown no sign of changing her mind. Another part of me would consider reconciling if she were to show interest.
I don't know how to influence her directly if I'm doing LRT and NC with her. I didn't think trying to reason with her, which I've tried, or talking about our relationship was a good thing according to MWD.
I can expose her affair to more people, but so many people don't know how or want to take an active role in affair busting.
What suggestions do you have so that I'm not extending respect to her affair?
Thanks.
The problem is to put it simple is that in the context of infidelity I disagree with MWD
She does advocate you being the better person
MWD does advocate you becoming more inviting
MWD does advocate you not pursuing
BUT... MWD doesn't reccomend addressing the elephant in the room - the affair - directly... THAT part there are several infidelity experts who disagree with her... MWD is not an infidelity expert, she hasn't written extensively on it, doens't specialize in infidelity with therapy cases either...
The problem is as you put it, a lot of people don't know how to deal with hit when confronted with it as an outsider either... But their default response is to SUPPORT it by NOT doing anything.
If someone beats someone up and you stand there and watch, you are in a small way beating that person up too... This is common reasoning for many offences.
For infidelity many people don't know how to handle it so they just bury their head in the sand.
Ask people to take a stand, educate them on the subject. Take them out to dinner and try to help them understand that if it were THEM, they would want YOU do support them rather than hiding...
Infidelity in my opinion is bordline criminal offence... If someone broke into my home, spraypainted my wall, took my stereo and ran out, THAT would be FAR less devastating than what the OM did to my home.... But for some reason infidelity gets a free pass...
Try to help these third parties understand that they don't even have to DO that much... just REFUSE her ACCESS
They just have to tell your wife
I don't condone what you are doing to your husband, your family, or your marriage. Go home. As long as you are acting in this horrible and embarassing fashion you are not welcome in my home or around my family. Please leave
Imagine if all of your wife's friends took this stand... Imagine how long the affair would last if the whole community spoke up with one clear, respectable voice of reason like that... People can't surive without their friends, without their community...
Women in particular cannot continue to support a man that the community does not respect... It wears on their long term outlook for the future of the affair... If they realize NO ONE will even TALK to them... the affair will die much more quickly.. Its all these ostriches hiding away that really fuel the affair to continue... Or the worse case... They invite the "lovely couple" to dinner!
It's not just exposure, its HOW its done... It's WHAT is said, how much leadership, respect, and direction you offer up when you speak with each audience.
People aren't educated in this matter, they need education and practical direction...
If they don't WANT to help, just ask them to turn your wife away... that's not asking much... all they have to do is block your wife's calls, turn her away at the door... Basically shut her out... one confrontation so she knows WHY would be good... the more the better...
talking to your wife is pointless. Attacking her infidelity publically is better... OR attacking it from the OM perspective
OM is attacking my marriage, my wife, and my home... This is creepy, sick, and disgusting... Please tell this creepy guy to stop stalking my wife... Do you want that kind of person around your children? A man who will mount someone else's wife in some sleazy hotel? You want your kids exposed to this?
i often compare infidelity to stalking, bullying, or child molestation. There is quite a bit of overlap.
The thing is you are competing with hollywood and the music industry romanticizing the whole thing.. you need to PAINT a MUCH more HONEST picture of what it FEELS like from the inside of the affair...
VIOLATED
In all three examples above violated is the common theme.
Some creep forces himself into your life in a ruinous way to get some sick thrill out of the attack... And no one wants to talk about it so he often gets away with it..
If you want he to change her mind you need to fight the affair, not her... Fight it from the community, not from text messages and whatnot.. that's how many people seem to go at this these days and it doens't work...
Go to people's homes that she visits, take them to dinner, educate them on the problem and ask them to turn your wife away with an explanation and advice to go home... no apologies to her, just "go home" and show your wife the door.
You can't wait for your wife to show interest... LRT doens't work if you just distance yourself and hope for the best... this means the affair will run its full course and take MUCH LONGER to END...
Those on this forum that FIGHT the nonsense end it much sooner than those who dance around it with a smile on their face.
AllenA,
I'm just curious. Is your story posted anywhere? Did you bust your divorce? I don't know if your story included an A, but if it did, how did you break it up?
My story isn't posted here no... A large part of the A had its run before I was posting here... I didn't learn how to combat an affair until well into it and a lot of damage had already been done
My wife did have an EA and PA off and on for over two years with OM
I confronted my wife about the A immediately...
There is no ONE "how" to it... I used a variety of approaches reccomended by MWD and experts on the subject as well as some of my own invention...
What worked and what didn't? In some cases it is tough to say...
My wife didn't move out, though it was threatened several times. We are still together now... OM's been gone for 8+ months now...
Wow I didn't realize it was so recent.
So what are your ages if you don't me asking.
bout the same as you and your wife actually...
It is recent, and a long time ago.. it went on for a very long time on and off... to me it feels like a long time ago because it started in 2006... didn't end until 2009... though it ended several times between those dates
Most of the advice I am offering is hindsight advice... Oftentimes when you go through something like this you are terrified and have no idea what to do, or don't have confidence in the advice... AFTERWARDS 20/20 kicks in and many people here say the same thing... If I had known this THEN things would have been much different.
Some of the advice I offer I did myself with clear positive impact... Some of the advice I offer here I never had a chance to do, but I am sure it would have helped if I had the chance to do it. Once you have been through it and are on the other side you can see much more clearly what works, why, what doens't, and why...
Detachment is a biggie... it too me a very long time to figure that one out... It is a lifesaver once you learn how to pull it off...