My wife and I have been married for 12 years and we have two beautiful daughters ages 7 and 3. I thought things were going well, but about 8 months ago, she began an emotional affair with a married man from our church who usually does not work during the day. While I have been off working, she has been spending hours with him on the phone and also going to parks and other places with him during the day, including his house with the excuse that they wanted to get the kids together to play. We homeschool and so do they. He would also fix things around our house.
About a year and a half ago, he started a friendship with my wife (supposedly because he suffers depression and since my wife has a degree in psychology, he thought she could help him). But after awhile he seemed to be putting some moves on my wife, such as making an effort to hug her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Olive Garden and sitting by her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Jumping Jacks and going down the slide with her (while I was at work). At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
One day I came home and he was sitting right next to my wife on our backyard swing. They admitted that they were sitting a little close when I expressed my concern about it. One evening about two weeks ago, after my older daughter told me the man had come over by himself that day (he usually brought his boy to play), I called his house and got his wife. She seemed to be in denial that anything was going on between her husband and my wife and kept saying, "I have to trust him." After I got off the phone, my wife said that she was going to a park for awhile when it was taking her a long time, I called the man's wife again and discovered that her husband was visiting with my wife to try to work out the problem. That evening when she finally got home, she suggested we get a divorce and said she had feelings for him that she never had for me. I was devastated. I had a few arguments with her about it. I thought I had convinced her to give me a month and to not communicate with him for awhile. But apparently she was still communicating with him.
I then discovered this website. The next morning, I stayed home from work (with the excuse that my younger daughter had a cold), and of course the other man called. I answered the phone and he said he had forgotten my wife's birthday and wanted to bring her a present. I said we'd pick it up in church on the weekend and that he should lay off for awhile. I acted that day like things were fine and I played with the kids and helped my older daughter with her schoolwork. Later my wife called him back and I overheard part of the discussion. It sounded like he was trying to get her to run off with him because my wife kept saying things like, "No, I could never do that to my kids and my husband and your family." Currently I fear that she continues to communicate with him and possibly even meet with him. What do I do to fix this mess? I love my wife dearly and want her back, heart and soul.
I posted this in the WAW section of this forum and have been getting advice and help from people there. I thought things were getting better lately, but now my wife and the OM are communicating again by email and telling each other how much they still love and miss each other. I'm at my wits end for what to do. Please help!
Probably by tonight someone will have some advice for you on this post. As hard as it is, I think mostly they tell people not to panic and do anything rash for the next few days or start a yelling match or anything. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut for a few days and someone will give you advice on what to do not to make it worse. Sorry this is going on right now. No one should have to go through this.
Glad you posted over here...there's alot of traffic here and in Newcomers- this is where I should have been posting from the start...
Aside from wanting a D, what else has your W said? My guess is not too much...if that's the case- you CANNOT ask her and whatever she says will be NEGATIVE, HURTFUL, and mostly UNTRUE- epecially if its minimizing her R w/ OM.
EVERYTHING from here on will be about YOU and YOUR actions. NEVER REACT- if you feel like reacting it will be the WRONG THING TO DO.
Even when you think there's that ONE thing you can say to help matters- IT WILL NOT HELP...from here on out it's about your ACTIONS- its VERY SIMPLE- but hard as hell to do.
You need to be patient, do NOT stress her out w/ texts, phone calls, questions, DO NOT PURSUE her...BE THE BEST DAD YOU CAN BE- and keep focused on small goals.
If she sucks you in to R talk, ONLY LISTEN and VALIDATE- do not use logic or try to convince her of anything- ANYTHING.
OMW is aware of the sitch? You have spoken to her before? Keep everything to yourself, build a case- and like I said- EXPECT to be lied to.
Try to consult w/ Allen and Puppy about exposure...
Are there any plans for a FT or MC? If not start researching good ones...make your first appt for yourself.
Do not tell W to be hopeful, do not ask her to come to MC, unless she has previously mentioned it or brings it up.
SET AN EXAMPLE and TAKE ACTION to be the best person you can be for yourself.
Work your 180s and understand this is going to be VERY UNFAIR- you are going to be doing 99 percent of the work and you can't complain about it.
I'm off to a movie, I'll add more later tonight.
Be positive and try to detach so that your temper and patience dont wear.
Here for you...
If you want to see what not to do...read my sitch
Heck read as many sitches as you can to see what to expect...all is not lost, hang in there
I appreciate your help and advice so much. I probably should not have done this, but today I got into her email and read an email from the OM. It seems like my wife was actually starting to get turned off a bit by his critical comments, but she is still trying to be his friend and he wants to meet up with her again in person to discuss their friendship which I think they haven't done for a couple of weeks now. She noticed that I opened up the email and attacked me about it when I got home. She says she doesn't love or respect me. I realize it was probably a big mistake to read the email - I guess I just wanted to know what they are discussing.
Not sure what kind of account she has, but if you're going to do that you have to mark it as unread when you're done.
You will likely get all kinds of script for your intel, assuming you get caught: "you don't respect my privacy, I don't respect you, I don't love you, I can't live like this, you're crazy, etc etc.'
If you are going to monitor intel, DO NOT EVER GIVE UP YOUR SOURCES...DONT TELL ANY FRIENDS, ETC...
This sitch may be drawn out for months, YOU WILL HAVE A LOT ON YOUR MIND.
Post here, delete your history, ALWAYS wait for advice before you do anything.
If you look at my sitch and the dates, I truly started posting almost 2 months after the BOMB- I MADE EVERY MISTAKE YOU CAN MAKE- when I needed advice and guidance the most I wasn't posting here, that would have saved me alot of grief.
If she's going to meet OM, dont question her when she comes back, not where were you, what did you do, etc.
When she leaves, don't even ask where she's going.
Right now, you are the enemy to her...you need to be as emotionless, but as pleasant as you can be- ALWAYS-
Don't engage her in conversation unless its the basics...dont ever ask, "what do you want to do about us, how do you feel about us, etc."
W and I had coffee every morning- we would have casul conversation most of the time...when she was done talking she would get up and go inside- my dumbarse would follow her back in the house...DO NOT DO THAT...
You need to come off as independant, strong, confident, and easy going person that you can be...you will prob have to force youself to at first, but if you know everything you're up against it will get easier.
She is in a lot of pain, she is confused, she doesn't know what she wants...you will remind her of EVERYTHGING she doesnt want if you pursue her or pressure her...
Tomorrow you'll prob get a lot of added info...if you havent read DR or DB, go buy them...they are just for you.
Buy books on communication and what ever else has contributed to your M being where it is now.
DO NOT READ PASSAGES to your W, do not leave them out on a specific page yet, do not teach her what you've learned...
Everything is action based...
I have some advice about OM, but see what Allen and Puppy have to say.
For now, dont get busted and dont freak out on her about him...
What else can you tell me about your sitch?
OK ken.
I think I have the gist of the situation here.
I am going to pitch the same advice I offer others
1. Expose this affair
To who? To anyone who may apply pressure to your wife to END her Infatuation with this man.
And YES, call it infidelity, do NOT call it a "relationship". They are TWO VERY different things.
Infidelity is to romantic realtionships what Stalking is to dating. It's selfish, deluded, and creepy.
Now, you mentioned church, you mentioned this OM has a wife, you think of anyone else in your famliy who may pressure this affair to END.
how do you expose? You reveal these key points
1. You want your marriage (I assume)
2. Your wife is infatuated with a married man she's been seeing in secret.
3. Now your wife is convinced if she runs away with him her life, your life, and your children's lives will be better off.
4. You do NOT agree - EVERYONE gets hurt by divorce.
5. Please do what you can to persuade my wife to reconsider.
These are the key points you want your support group to impress upon her.
You tell EVERYONE who might be willing or able to help.
Warning : You will find many people you thought were your "freinds" turn their head away and don't want to get involved.. it is at times like these where you find out who your true friends are... cherish these people when they rally to your side, and remember to show your thanks when this is over.
2. Intervenstion and confrontation
Once you expose the affair you contront your wife.
You tell her that your marriage and your family are the most important thing to you and that you will do everything you can to save that.
Your wife will very lilkey scoff or make some excuse.
IGNORE it. Maintain your position and your dignity.
a. Do NOT BEG
b. Do NOT ARGUE
c. Do NOT NEGOTIATE
You leave your friends to do your negotiating for you.. the friends and famliy whom you exposed this affair to.
You distance yourself from her. Do what you can to stay clear.
Right now your instincts are to cling to her like glue. Your instincts are to follow her around and persuade her to stay and not divorce. Your instincts are to make her understand this is a mistake she will regret later.
Your instincts are WRONG
SHE is following her instincts... Your wife is letting her feelings drive her actions and turning her back on logic and good judgement... Do NOT follow in her footsteps... KEEP your HEAD about you.
You do this by keeping your distance from her. Do NOT talk to her, do NOT help her, do NOT Do anything to directly try ti influence her changing her mind. You will have work to do, but chasing her is NOT that work.
It is early on, so I am not reccomending protection phase yet... I am counting on it not getting to that point.
1. You need to start finding a GOOD Family therapist, this can take weeks. You want a FT that treats infidelity as an addiction, one who is PRO MARRIAGE and will NEVER reccomend divorce unless the COUPLE both want to pursue that. you want to look for a good FT that you will start seeing on your own. Your wife will want to follow the example you set, so start setting a good one by going to a FT.
2. Get in contact with OMW. TELL HER EVERYTHING. EXPOSE this to OMW. Show her ANY EVIDENCE you have. She will NOT believe you without it. Do NOT ENABLE this infidelity by keeping it a SECRET.
Affairs survive on three things :
1. Secrecy
2. Sex
3. Emotion
These three ingredients create a ROMANTIC FANTASY that is VERY addictive and causes even a healthy mind to be deluded into thinking they are in some silly hollywood movie and they will run off together and be happy for ever after. This is as believable as a lottery commercial. You need to BREAK this fantasy with REALITY.
You bring your friends, your family, her friends, her famliy, and ESPECIALLY OM's WIFE bearing down on those two.
YOU do NOT talk to your wife direclty about this at ALL. She WILL confront you. Do NOT argue.
Your mantra is this
"Everything I am doing I am doing to save our marriage and our family"
And you walk away.
The more whispers behind her back, the more people shaking their head at her, the more SHAME she experiences, the less EXCITING her affair will be... and she will GRADUALLY come to her senses, it will take WEEKS of work.
Affairs do NOT end overnight.
Confront OM. Go to his house, talk to him AND his wife and TELL HIM to STAY AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE.
Presumably you have kids and he does as well. If this is the case, you impress upon him and his wife that
"We are adults and we have obligations that far transcend how we FEEL right now..."
He is also experiencing depression. Anyone emotionally vulnerable is more prone to an addiction. He may not even be taking any medication he may have been prescribed.
You CAN put an end to this affair, but do NOT do it through yoru WIFE, this will do TOO MUCH DAMAGE.
Go after OM and OMW and tell them to leave YOU TWO alone to work on your marriage while THEY work on THEIRs.
You make regular phone calls to them to check in.
you make sure they are working on their marriage. Do NOT keep these calls a secret, if your wife asks, you TELL her you are trying to protect TWO HOUSEHOLDS here. You do what you can to keep that family together and yours together.
Keep pressing on OM to LEAVE your HOME ALONE.
If he goes to church, tell people in church who will pressure him or those who he will at least be embarassed by knowing.
You make sure this infidelity LOOKS and FEELS like a CREEPY SORDID AFFAIR .. THAT will bust up the roantic fantasy your wife has in her head.
You make it into something embarassing and shameful.
Your wife will forgive you. SHe will be FURIOUS, but that's jus the addiction talking.
I will comment on you reading the email later.
OK, the email. That's fine.
THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDE NOTHING
Do NOT apologize for reading the email. Do NOT ARGUE your case for reading it.
"Everything I do, I do to save our marriage and family"
And you walk away.
Now. You need to go to OM's house, you go there as OFTEN as you CAN... you make a PEST of yourself. Do NOT aggravate OM's wife, she is a HUGE ALLY here.
You show up to their house, you be KIND and SYMPATHETIC TO his wife, she's dealing with eveyrthing you are and likely more.
You sit down with the two of them and you tell them that you have a marriage you want to save and that OM's involvement is doing DAMAGE to that marriage AND to his own household as well.
You tell the two of them that it is best if he does NOT make ANY attempt to contact your wife AT ALL. Tell him that time is best invested into saving his own marriage, NOT in destroying yours.
If you have kids, you take those pictures out and you SHOW them the pictures.
You tell them you love your wife and you are NOT going to stand by and watch him attack your home and ruin your family.
You tell them you will be making regular calls and visits to check in on them and any help you can be to help those two work on their marriage as a COUPLE you will be happy to do.
Tell them you wish them the best in thier marriage and that you do NOT want OM ANYWHER NEAR your wife again.
You make it VERY clear you will protect your wife and your family and he is a THREAT to that and to LEAVE your FAMILY ALONE.
NO GIFTS
NO PHONE CALLS
NO EMAIL
NO CONTAACT at ALL
His wife should be on side with this as well.
Tell his wife and OM that its best if he shares his cell phone records with his wife for the time being to ensure that both families are kept safe and no further damage is done.
You get in the OM's FACE as MUCH as you CAN...
I don't know how he will react, so you will have to play this a bit by ear. He may laugh at you, he may be scared crapless...
But you EXPOSE this WHOLE MESS right in his HOME with his WIFE RIGHT THERE.
if he denies it and his wife isn't sure...
Tell his wife ot go to OM's PC and read his email.
If they have separate PC's he is likley not deleting the mail... if he refuses to let her, he's signed his death warrant.
if he lets her, she will find something.
But the BEST way to handle this is to find some evidence on YOUR END on YOUR pc and print that up and take it to their home.
Do NOT tell your wife you are doing this.
She will find out eventually, but you do NOT want to WARN her becuase SHE will tell HIM to ERASE his PC of all evidence.
You MUST HAVE his WIFE support you here. If she does NOT believe you that her HUSBAND is cheating on her then you have to convince her... it is a LOT harder to fight an affair if you don't have the support of the OAS (other abandoned spouse)
Do what you can to get proof before you show up at their home.
Maynard, thank you for posting. You have a lot of good advice there.
I don't know if I would reccomend acting casual. I find when there is an affair going on acting casual sends an implied message of being OK with the affair.
We don't want to send a mixed message.
You PROTEST the affair.
You tell EVERYONE you CAN that its HURTING your family and your HOME is under attack.
You do NOT protest to the wife.
you tell her you want to save your marriage and your family and that divorce just makes eveyrone feel worse.
When you are in your home you just look BUSY.
Not happy, not sad, just busy.
You leave your wife alone. If she asks you something, you answer with as few words as possible and end the convo as soon as you can.
We need regular updates ken, on the status of both the affair and your wife's behaviour.
Don't apologize for ANYTHING to do with the affair or saving your marriage.
If you step on her TOE or something, sure, apologize, but do NOT apologize for exposing the affair or protecting your home from marital predators like that creep friend of hers.
If he's going to trash her marriage AND his he's NOT a friend... he's a creep and a predator.
YOU need to PROTECT your wife from creeps like that.
NEVER let some guy spend time in PRIVATE with your wife dude... NEVER.. bad idea!!!
Just to expand on my last point Ken.
You said OM is maried?
Did it ever occur to you that it wasn't just the OM moving in on your wife but that YOU were enabling YOUR WIFE to move in on someone ELSE's husband?
Did it ever occur to you that OM's wife might not think those two hanging out in private was a good idea?
Psychologists have a LICENSE for a REASON. They are REGISTERED for a REASON... because they counsel people who are VULNERABLE and there is a HIGH RISK of ethics being violated.
This is the case with lawyers, doctors, and other professoinals... there are NO safeguards to protect either marriage in the arrangement your wife and OM were doing.
I am NOT telling you to boss our wife around into not talking to him. I am telling you to GET INTO the meeting so its NOT private.
Anyhow... I hope you understand that married men and women who are vulnerable should NOT be talking to other married men and women in PRIVATE... its a recipie for disaster.
Tell your wife the following :
"I am not at all worried about you reading any of my emails. I am not doing anything to put our marriage at risk. you are welcome to review any email I have sent or received on my PC. I have no secrets from you and I won't have any. I made a commitment to you when I married you. Keeping secrets from your partner is disrespectful to say the least - I would never do that to you."
Implied here is that your WIFE was the one being disrespectful by cheating.
Its classic double standard. She can disrespect you by cheating and lying, but if you read her email suddenly respect is a standard you both have to follow?
You don't demand respect, you EARN it. And she's been shortchanging you of late and in my opinion has given you reasonable cause to check up on her communication with OM.
Do NOT argue this case with her. Just give her the quote I put up there and stop talking. Do NOT agree or apologize to any argument she makes.
Just repeat your position.
You have no secrets from her. Secrets make you sick and erode a marriage into nothing. Challenge her to open your email and for her to read whatever she likes.
Tell her your commitment to her is 100% and you have no secrets, but she can check up on your mail at any time if she's at all worried about you.
THIS is YOU setting an example of an HONEST household and an HONEST marriage.
Don't attack what SHE's doing see... just SHOW an EXAMPLE of how an ADULT uses a computer and let her do the math on her own.. she will figure it out.
My wife and I have been married for 12 years and we have two beautiful daughters ages 7 and 3. I thought things were going well, but about 8 months ago, she began an emotional affair with a married man from our church who usually does not work during the day. While I have been off working, she has been spending hours with him on the phone and also going to parks and other places with him during the day, including his house with the excuse that they wanted to get the kids together to play. We homeschool and so do they. He would also fix things around our house.
About a year and a half ago, he started a friendship with my wife (supposedly because he suffers depression and since my wife has a degree in psychology, he thought she could help him). But after awhile he seemed to be putting some moves on my wife, such as making an effort to hug her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Olive Garden and sitting by her (while I was at work), taking her and the kids to Jumping Jacks and going down the slide with her (while I was at work). At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
How do you know all of this? Your post says, about all of those incidents, "while I was at work." Did you get intel on this, or is this how your wife recounted the incidents to you?
Ken, it seems to me that your wife was looking for your help in fending off this predator, here:
At the time, she was not that attracted to him and we both agreed that all this should stop. We informed him, and for a time, it did stop. But like a moth around the flame, he gradually returned to his old ways and apparently my wife started to fall for him.
When it re-ignited, your weak-ass response here:
One day I came home and he was sitting right next to my wife on our backyard swing. They admitted that they were sitting a little close when I expressed my concern about it.
I suggest that your wife has lost quite a bit of respect for you through these WEAK responses to her infidelity. Many cheating spouses are actually crying out for HELP to their spouses, and for ATTENTION, and to know that they still MATTER to them. When a man, especially, doesn't respond to this in a strong and forceful way, he conveys a lack of love and protection for his wife.
Since women tie their feelings of love very closely with their feelings of respect (it is difficult, if not impossible, for a woman to be in love with a man she doesn't respect), I think your wife is losing love for you through these weak, timid responses to her infidelity.
Allen can give you all of the step-by-step, but until you face this brutal reality, and summon up the courage to deal with it head-on, I'm afraid his advice for you is going to fall on deaf ears.
Puppy
Thanks pup, I guess what i said implied to grow a pair, but it's worth saying outright.
Ken, you need to march over to OM's house while he and his wife are there and insist he leave your wife alone and start paying more attention to his own.
Let me put this a different way for you Ken.
a. Suppose there were teenagers throwing rocks at your house and you knew where they lived? Would you DO something about that?
b. Suppose someone broke into your house, took your stereo, and left his name and number... would you DO something about that?
c. Suppose someone broke into your house, vandalized the place top to bottom, and left their name and number.. would you go to their HOME and DEMAND they leave your home alone and NEVER COME NEAR it again?
Infidelity of this sort here you are dealing with is no different than any other domestic violation that should be dealt with as a crime. Infidelity USED to BE a criminal act.
Do NOT just sit there and let this man violate your wife while she's vulnerable.
On this point. You haven't said much about the STATE of your MARRIAGE when all of this started. I suspect you two were NOT getting along all that well... this is VERY OFTEN how affairs manage to sneak into the home. You leave your wife vulnerable to an affair by neglecting her or hurting her in some way, and a predator WILL SENSE this and TAKE ACTION... YOU need to PROTECT YOUR WIFE AND YOUR FAMILY... this is your HOME
DO SOMETHING about it... march over there and tell this CREEP to STEER CLEAR
If you have ANY LEVERAGE you can put up on the table to make sure he knows you mean business you USE IT.
Thanks for all the great advice. I know everything you guys are saying is true, that I was neglecting my wife and leaving her vulnerable, etc. when it all started. I was working hard at building websites and trying to make money and at the same time neglecting my wife.
I see now that I grossly under-reacted to the situation when the OM was putting on his moves. More recently, I have been more aggressive about it. I have tried yelling at him to leave my wife alone, and I have tried being nice to him and appealing to him in a more Christian way. The OMW is now very aware of the situation, but still thinks it is possible for the OM and my wife to be "just friends", and so has been rather passive about things. This info is not in my post above because it is all in my other thread under the WAW part of the forum, and I didn't have time to rewrite it all again at the moment I posted.
My wife is has stated that she intends to continue to be the OM's friend and that I can "take it or leave it". She insists that she is no longer being inappropriate in her conversations with him, but I'm not so sure. She is still being secretive about her emails and always deletes inbound and outbound messages immediately. But she says he thinks like a woman and that he connects with her and makes good conversation with her.
Meanwhile I am starved for affection. She cooks for me and still allows me to get intimate, though not near as often as before, but she doesn't want to hug or kiss me.
Ken. I am going to say this once and once only :
1. You tell him to STAY AWAY from your WIFE.. period. You find some leverage and you USE IT. do NOT be Passive.
2. If his wife says its "safe" tell her she's mistaken.
3. Do NOT sleep with your wife.
4. Do NOT eat dinner with her.
5. You NEED to STOP ALLOWING her to do this.
SHOW that you will not accept this by NOT going along with all of it.. no dinners with her etc... she WILL get involved with him I can promise you that.
My wife and COUNTLESS other people on here were told the "its ok they can be friends' BS story.. it does NOT work.
I promise you that in three months time you will find out that she's having sex with him. She and he will be delcaring their love and both petitioning for divorce and you will be SO UPSET you will not be able to fight this thing at that point.
If your WIFE is deleting emails then she's NOT being appropriate. If its appropriate then she woudln't HAVE to delete them. and TELL HER THAT.
THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE - HIDE NOTHING.. TELL HER THIS.
Your wife has told you she wants to divorce you for him, NOW she's STILL sending him emails, HIDING them and you actually BELIEVE its all on the level?
She lies to you outright and your response is "I'm not so sure?"
Don't be a FOOL.
Take a stand. Tell your wife that this man needs a qualified professional and that she has gotten emotionally involved with him.. she is NOT CAPABLE of helping him any further.
Tell her outright if she is giong to put HIM before YOU, that she is being VERY DISRESPECTFUL.
And you will then have to head into protection phase...
That OM's wife should be slapped silly... she's naieve as they come...
Are there any chidlren in this mess?
Does OM have children or you?
Ken, WAY TOO MANY people show up here with a story almost exactly like yours... and they want to trust their partner, they want to avoid rocking the boat, they want to avoid conflict...
It is a MISTAKE to sit back and watch your wife trash HER marriage AND someone elses... DO SOMETHING.
This is VERY EARLY on and you CAN put this fire out... but you are NOT going to put the fire out by being passive and avoiding conflict.. Get in this guy's face, find some damn leverage and USE IT...
Did you tell his wife that YOUR WIFE has alraedy claimed she wants to divorce YOU for her HUSBAND?
Does she just not believe you or did OM lie to her and tell her that its not true?
I am trying to understand how this woman can be so passive AND you so passive when your wife has already announced she wanted to divorce you for OM.
And ya, she likley said it had nothing to do with OM... tha'ts a classic line.. its a LIE.. we ALL HAVE HEARD THAT ONE.
Ken, I am so frustrated that you arne't getting on TOP of this while you CAN.. I was where you are and I let it happen too... and then she started sleeping with him.. at THAT point I was a complete mess and I couldn't fight the affair at ALL.
Do NOT let it get to that point.
Do NOT let your wife email this creep.. I am TELLING YOU .. get INVOLVED and get in teh MIDDLE of this before it ESCALATES and TWO HOMES are broken apart by ignorance and idleness...
I'm one of those that Allen is talking about, Ken. I allowed my W to con me with that "he's just a friend" thing. So I stuck my head in the sand to avoid conflict; hoping that everything would be OK. Well guess what...It wasn't!!
It just gave her more time and room to have a PA with whomever she chose.
End that relationship with OM NOW!!!
Ken, there's a GREAT BOOK out called Not Just Friends by Glass.
She explains this far better than I can.
But the main point is... once your wife's infatuation is built up, they can't be friends anymore.. you can't go back from that.
MOST of the people on this forum had the naieve trust in their spouse and in the capacity for integrity between two people that you do right now...
We grew up and got real very fast once we learned anther man has been secretly mounting our wife because we chose to do nothing other than believe in the good of human nature.
Infidelity is VERY ADDICTIVE.
If you think you can take a bottle away from an alcoholic, or a needle away from a drug user, or money away from a gambler, and they will simply stop, you are a fool.
You will be here in three months time again. This OM will be having sex with your wife, and your marriage will be in much more jeapoardy than it is right now.
Take time off from work, and find some leverage to get OM to leave your wife alone. Do NOT try to control your wife.. that will just antagonize her twoards you and push her into his arms quicker than OM is already drawing her in.
If you have to take six months off of work and follow that creep around the city 24 x 7 to keep him clear of your wife you do it.
Don't be a fool. We have ALL heard this story on this forum and it does NOT end well I promise you. Find some leverage and USE IT before its too late.
Ken, would like to hear how things are going...
My wife is treating me very nice so far this weekend and I believe she is not trying to contact the OM. She has told me that she is willing to be more open about her conversations with him, but still doesn't seem willing to cut off communication with him completely. She now says she thinks he might be gay, which I'm pretty sure is not true since he is married and has two kids. (He has two boys, ages 7 and 1 and we have two girls, ages 7 and 3.)
I have made arrangements with the police that he is not welcome on my property and he can be arrested if he comes. I have asked him many times and in many ways to leave my wife alone and not contact her, and he has actually agreed on about three separate occasions and even apologized to me once saying it was over, but he was back at it emailing her within a week each time. Ironically, tomorrow is our 12 year anniversary, and my wife said a couple days ago when I got into her email that if I bought her flowers, she would just throw them in the trash.
A couple of questions: 1) I know how to intercept and redirect emails from him and have them sent to my email. Should I? I'm just afraid I might get caught and that would definitely send my wife's flames higher.
2) Should I try to block his phone? (Same concern as #1 applies.)
I would have a talk with his wife again. Is she really being that naieve and trusting STILL?
Have you TOLD his wife that your wife wanted to divorce you for him and admitted she's in love with him?
I want to know why his wife is still comfortable with her husband talking to a woman who claims to be in love with him.
What wife in their right mind would sign off on her husband talking in private to a woman who claims to be in love with him?
I suspect you haven't told her about that. If not - EXPOSE the affair properly... don't pull punches.
If the OM tells you he will stop and he's emailing her again a week later you need to find some leverage on him.
Does he work? Show up at his workplace in front of EVERYONE there and humiliate him. Call him a creep and tell him to stay away from your wife or you're coming back and you wont' be nice about it next time.
This guy is just humouring you. You need to find a way to FORCE him to leave her alone.
I would not try to intercept messages. He has to WANT to leave her alone...
If you have a way to transparently trap incoming mail and COPY it to your PC then do it... it is valuable intelligence.
IF your wife will discover this, don't do it.
Your wife IS having an affair with her Ken.
If SHE refuses to end contact, AND he is ignoring you, that means they are putting each other before you... that's a big RED LIGHT.
Get his wife involved... she HAS to apply pressure on his end.
I know that Allen advocates doing things with full openness about what you're trying to accomplish...I know that doing things covertly are difficult and when BUSTED, make you look only that much worse.
That being said- see what Allen has to say...I know that you are safeguarding your M and that is NOTHING to be ashamed about.
As for the Anniversary, maybe a generic card, nothing more...the correct answer may be nothing at all.
I would def not go all out w/ anything more than a card though.
Sounds like things are OK- I wouldn't believe the gay thing either, could be a diversion...
Do you have anything in writing that proves an affair is taking place?
Dont' sweat the flowers, people having affairs say all sorts of ridiculous stuff that they don't mean... you need balls of steel and you have to ignore it.
He's just SAYING he's gay to get her to talk to him about sex...
More to the point.. if she's thinking he is gay, why would she earlier threaten to divorce you for a gay man?
Why would she claim to be in love with a gay man?
I honestly don't believe he's even telling her that... I think she's telling YOU that to make YOU less suspisious.
I have a question here.
Is your WIFE telling HIS wife ANY of the details they are discussing?
Does she NOT CARE if her husband is gay? Does she not CARE that your wife claims to be in love with the man? Does his wife really care for this guy at all?
I want to know how she can possibly help this guy if they arne't sharing any info with his wife?
She's teh guys' wife, why isnt' she interested in what they are talking about?
I don't get it.. Ken, something's missing here... please fill us in... no woman is THAT trusting and THAT neieve.. I suspect you haven't told her everything.
Ken. here's an anniversary trick for you... everyone can do this.
1. Make dinner reservations for two
2. Buy a gift for the home
3. Buy a card for you two as a couple.
4. Dress up well.
You will put all this together and make your wife aware of it all, but do NOT invite her.
Tell her you will be going to dinner and will open the gift when you come back.. YOU are celebrating YOUR ANNIVERSARY
Tell her she's welcome to join you if she's interested...
And you do it.
I know that Allen advocates doing things with full openness about what you're trying to accomplish...I know that doing things covertly are difficult and when BUSTED, make you look only that much worse.
That being said- see what Allen has to say...I know that you are safeguarding your M and that is NOTHING to be ashamed about.
As for the Anniversary, maybe a generic card, nothing more...the correct answer may be nothing at all.
I would def not go all out w/ anything more than a card though.
Sounds like things are OK- I wouldn't believe the gay thing either, could be a diversion...
Yup maynard, normally I would, but this woman is deleting emails and openly hiding information... so I say take the info directly.
She's being disrespectful towoards him, so why respect her privacy?
SECRETS have NO PLACE in a healthy marriage.
I checked my wife's emails and put her phone on the kid plan so I could manage who she had access to. It sent her thru the roof. I told her that if she didn't like it; to get her own.
Eventually she did after she moved out.
Point of this story is that you cannot control who she communicates with but you can surely NOT fund it or allow it to go on in your house.
Oh....he's not gay. She just wants you to give up trying to keep them apart. I heard that too.
Thanks MC... I was pretty confident in my post, but this backup strengthens my convictions even more.
Ken.. go to the guys workplace and humiliate him.
Do whatever you have to do to FORCE him to back off... words have no force if there's no threat behind them.
Find leverage and use it.
Thanks for your suggestions. I won't intercept her email, but I try when I can to copy them to my PC. I usually am only able to get what my wife writes, but every once in awhile I get what he writes. I already have plenty of evidence that an affair is taking place, though it still at an emotional level (saying I love you...things like that) and the most physical it has gotten (I think) is a kiss.
I believe what you are saying is correct about him being gay - it's my wifes way of making me think things are ok. The OM's wife is very overly trusting and has in the past come over and left my wife alone with her husband while going outside with the kids for long periods of time and has gone to the park with them and left them alone on a park bench while going on long walks with her kids. The reason I know so much is because my kids have told me. They tell me when he has been over and when my wife has been on the phone with him for two hours. I have tried to make it clear to her that they are telling each other that they love each other, and she doesn't seem to get it very well, although she is now much more alert to the situation. I need to mention that my wife is a stay-at-home mom and does not work as a psychologist. She just has a bachelors degree in it and that was just one of his excuses to come see her (since he suffers depression).
I'd love to go to his work and embarrass him, but he doesn't work. He made a lot of money as a plumber for rich people and now has been living off of that and real estate investments, but now he is going back to school to study to be a nurse, so maybe I should find out about that and go there to embarrass him.
Last time I saw him, I called him several names that I felt bad about because I don't usually talk like that, and I had the police over to get him off my property because he wouldn't leave when I asked him too several times. Even the neighbors came out to see what the fuss was about. I think I could have handled the situation better, but I did get an agreement with the police that he cannot come here without being arrested. (This story is in my other thread under WAW.)
I really like the idea that you gave me for the anniversary. I'll have to see what I can do.
Hi
I have been following and must chime in. Your guessing is driving me crazy!
If you feel the need for concrete proof or to verify NC:
Get Spector Pro, A keylogger for her computer.($100 or so)
If you do not have access to her computer, Try Webwatcher, which can be installed via email, I think.
Also, get a VAC, voice activated recorder. Get a small digital. Sony has one for about $40 at walmart.
Leave it in her car under the seat or where she is most likely to talk with him. Get good batteries and practice with it first so you can be sure it won't beep or buzz!
Waywards will lie even when presented with such evidence, so this must be for you or OHW. Then drop it. Don't get addicted to it. It isn't healthy.
Oh, and never ID your source, or even all your intel.
Thanks Whatnow, thats' some pretty good ideas right there.
Ken, it sounds like you need to get OMW woken up... print up the email you have that's condemning and share it with her.
Once you have done that, and OMW is CONVINCED there IS an affair taking place you show your wife the emails and confront her.
She will be LIVID... She will blast you.
BUT, you will show her you are NOT going to be fooled by her "he's gay" story or anything else she lies to you about.
You NEED GOOD EVIDENCE before confrontation.
She will TRY TO LIE, but you need good ammo here...
You will NEED support from friends and family and THEY won't know who to believe, so you NEED PROOF so yoru friends will support you.
Step 1 - Intelligence - collect a mountain of proof of an affair
Step 2 - Expose - reveal the affair to any and all supportive friends and family who will apply pressure on the wife to end the affair - OMW ESPECIALLY... have LOTS of GOOD evidence.. you have to convince her friends and family that she's cheating, she WILL LIE... you want to get her to LIE to them FIRST, and THEN in step 3 you show evidence to her.... once her friends catch her in a lie they will believe YOU and will be more supportive of you.. untl you can PROVE it, they will turn their heads away and tell you its your business they arne't taking sides.
Step 3 - Intervention - you confront WIFE with supportive family and friends to END the affair
Step 4 - Protection - if she refuses to END the AFFAIR we go to this step, I will cover in more detail later on
Right now just do what you can to get OM away from her and collect evidence of an affair...
WHen you DO try to confront her with family and friends your wife WILL LIE to their FACE about it... you have to be able to proove to her friends and family behoyond ANY DOUBT that an affair IS happening... NO ONE WANTS to believe affairs are happening... its a HUGE MOUNTAIN to get people to believe you...
If you all have not read Ken's other thread in the WAW forum, it would save you a lot of time. He has already been given much of the advice you are giving now. I don't think I told him to go to OM's workplace, but most of the other.
His Pastor even told him that if the A didn't stop that the only answer was for Ken to move away. This was after me pushing him to discuss it with his Pastor, due to his Christian views conflicting with the action he needed to take.
The OM threaten Ken if he had an RO placed on him, etc.You would just have to read it.
As a last resort b/c of the horrible things his W & OM were saying& doing, I told him to call OM (in front of his W)to come get her. He did, OM went and took W home with him......to spend the night in his home while OM's W was there. Next day, she was back. Then Ken called the Pastor to come talk to the "four" of them. OM's W hides her head in the sand, and the church looks away.
I am glad you men are trying to help him b/c I didn't know what else to say. Ken has a hard time applying tough love b/c he craves physical affection so much and his W can keep him under her control by "allowing" him to have it once in a while.
I agree- if WAW is willing to "give" affection- KEN, you must not partake!! She's controlling you and maipulating you.
BUST the A to family and get enough proof to open OM W's eyes!!
Expose as much as you can... These people are all enabling a fantasy...
Ken doens't have to be tough, everyone else just has to support him properly...
His PASTOR needs to get tough... what a bunch of children.
And his Pastor is a fool.. that is NOT constructive advice at all.. he's just validating teh whole mess... what kind of chuch is this???
I would announce the affair on speaker in front of the entire congregation.
And his Pastor is a fool.. that is NOT constructive advice at all.. he's just validating teh whole mess... what kind of chuch is this???
I'm thinking "Lady of Perpetual Agony."
Puppy
Hi
I have been following and must chime in. Your guessing is driving me crazy!
If you feel the need for concrete proof or to verify NC:
Get Spector Pro, A keylogger for her computer.($100 or so)
If you do not have access to her computer, Try Webwatcher, which can be installed via email, I think.
Also, get a VAC, voice activated recorder. Get a small digital. Sony has one for about $40 at walmart.
Leave it in her car under the seat or where she is most likely to talk with him. Get good batteries and practice with it first so you can be sure it won't beep or buzz!
Waywards will lie even when presented with such evidence, so this must be for you or OHW. Then drop it. Don't get addicted to it. It isn't healthy.
Oh, and never ID your source, or even all your intel.
This. ^ Stop wasting your -- and our -- time, and just DO THIS, Ken. You don't answer 3/4ths of the questions that people have for you here, nor 90% of the advice.
Let us know what you find out.
Puppy
Sorry Puppy Dog Tails - it's hard to keep up with all the postings here, but yes I did get keylogger and a digital recorder and I have been using them. It seems that my next step is to find out where the OM has his nursing classes and go there and embarrass him. But finding that out is not going to be easy. I agree that my pastor has been passive about his help - unfortunately I think that's how he feels I should be handling the situation. Pray about it, be nice to my wife and hope everything gets better, basically.
I would start telling his CONGREGATION how he handles affairs amongst its members... somehow I don't think the Pastor would LIKE you doing that, but if he stands by his advice, why not pass it out?
If you want to kick the Pastor in the rump, start sharing is brilliant advice with the members publically and overtly... I suspect he will get more actively involved if his efforts are suddenly under public scruitiny...
I can't imagine his congregation members would approve of his passive attitude...
I would start telling his CONGREGATION how he handles affairs amongst its members... somehow I don't think the Pastor would LIKE you doing that, but if he stands by his advice, why not pass it out?
If you want to kick the Pastor in the rump, start sharing is brilliant advice with the members publically and overtly... I suspect he will get more actively involved if his efforts are suddenly under public scruitiny...I can't imagine his congregation members would approve of his passive attitude...
I wasn't saying what I did in order to gang up on the Pastor, but I just wanted you all to know a tiny bit of what has gone down. I think Ken has too much on his plate right now to worry about trying to cause an uprising in his church.
*************************
Ken, I personally wonder if going to OM's place of employment will have any effect unless you can back up what you say to him. I don't think just embarrassing him is enough. In the past, OM has bluffed you out quite a bit. You would not get a RO against him b/c of what he told you, so be sure you are willing to carry through. Also,understand that there is a chance your W will in no way support what you do. Prepare for the worst.
You have made a few "tough love" decisions but you have a tendency to give into being passive and
that tears down whatever you tried to do, so that is what you need to realize.
Perhaps confront the pastor in private and let him know of how he's failing his position and congregation...suggest that he take a long hard look at what he's dedicated his life to and what he in turn condones by looking the other way...
My pastor and others in the church feel like there is nothing much they can do to help things. I believe he would be willing to go over and talk to the OM if I asked him to, and I think he has done that, but the OM doesn't listen. Many people have told him to leave my wife alone, but he is very brazen.
Well about my anniversary: I brought home a small card and a small box of chocolates for my wife and she said, "I told you not to get me anything!", and she put the chocolates and the unopened card in the pantry. I also tried to make arrangements for a babysitter so we could go out to eat, but while I was on the phone, she yelled, "I'm not going anywhere with you! There is nothing to celebrate!" I said, "Well I'm going to celebrate my anniversary" and she said, "I wish that day never happened!" Then I left and went to a nice restaurant to eat alone.
She definitely surprised me after what I thought was a pretty good weekend with her. I haven't seen any evidence of her communicating with the OM for three days now.
Woah...
Well Ken, I thought I suggested you to NOT invite her, to just make teh plan for yourself and make her aware she was welcome to join you... and I thought I said buy a gift for the HOME
You bought HER chocolates and invited her to dinner?
That's a WEE BIT of PURSUIT.. and you got exactly what MWD would have warned you would happen... she fled!
You need to stop the chase.. NOW
OK ken, so re the OM, what is his WIFE doing about all of this? Does he believe something is happening between these two NOW?
What did you consider as a pretty good weekend?
woops...I made it a bit of a pursuit and shouldn't have...oh well, I hope it will have close to the right effect.
Well it was a pretty good weekend compared to the last several months of weekends. She cooked some great meals, we got intimate, she asked for a massage which I did for her, we watched a movie together. It seems like about every Monday, she puts up a wall that lasts until the next weekend.
I can't believe what just happened. I thought things were getting a little better, but today I discovered that my wife and the OM had a phone conversation again and he emailed her three times today telling her how much he misses her and that he wishes they could spend time together.
She says he is just a friend and refuses to share her email messages with me and refuses to stop communicating with him. I am very frustrated.
Should I send the OM an email asking him to stop it? I'm pretty sure he would ignore me. He would just tell my wife what I did.
I can't believe what just happened. I thought things were getting a little better, but today I discovered that my wife and the OM had a phone conversation again and he emailed her three times today telling her how much he misses her and that he wishes they could spend time together.
She says he is just a friend and refuses to share her email messages with me and refuses to stop communicating with him. I am very frustrated.
Should I send the OM an email asking him to stop it? I'm pretty sure he would ignore me. He would just tell my wife what I did.
Sure, go ahead. Right after you send an e-mail to the neighborhood burglar, asking him to "please stop breaking into my house," and to your congressman, asking her to "please stop lying."
Your wife is lying to you -- that's a given. The question is, is that a boundary with you or not? Are YOU willing to live in a marriage where your wife communicates in appropriately with another man, hides it from you and lies to you about it, or not?
Ken, this isn't about your WIFE. It's about YOU. Boundaries are all about YOU.
Puppy
That's the wonderful thing about marriage when its healthy is you dont' have to worry about these sorts of things happening.
Ken... This is a very difficult point in a marriage, and you do have my sympathies...
The more you sit back, the more this affair is going to progress.
My advice has always been to deal with OM as aggressively as possible short of physical violence.. public humiliation being one of my favourites...
However in the spirit of generosity to views i do not in any way agree with.. this thread being a particularly fine example of addiction starting up and taking shape... I would warn you to be careful when taking an aggressive stance, as this can lead to undesirable consequences.
In short Ken, you need to roll some dice here and decide if you want to try being nicer to your wife, or more aggressive with OM...
My recommendation is with the latter based on my research of these topics... but its completely your call.
Why can't you do both? Someone is bound to ask :
Because getting aggressive with other man will in the SHORT TERM make your wife FURIOUS with you... but if your aggressive tactics are successful in driving him away your wife will have time to go through painful withdrawal and eventually she will forgive you for fighting for her so earnestly...
So, it is an exclusive choice unfortunately.
Okay Allen.....now I am confused. Didn't you advise him to go to OM's workplace and sort of call him out about the A? I would think that was taking an aggressive stand. Now, you are warning him about being aggressive with OM. Maybe it's just me.
Ken, let me remind you that in the beginning of all this mess, you did "ask" OM to stop contacting your W and both of them as much as laughed in your face about it. What next? Asking your Pastor to come back to talk to the four of you again? Don't keep doing what didn't work the first time around.
The OM will continue to contact your W as long as you and OM's W allows it to continue. Neither of you have given the cheaters any consequenses.
Ok, sandi
1. I am warning him as a courtesy to earlier "commentary" about aggressive approaches to combatting affairs. I still reccomend being aggressive, but as a courtesy to some earlier posts on another thread I am offering up a warnign that "not everyone agrees with me"... to my mind this is obvious, but at least I am showing some sort of effort to be diplomatic lol. I would still reccomend him confronting him in public.
2. The more you expose, the less FUN the affair is. THe idea is to spoil the fantasy and romance with a lot of reality. Similar to having a baby cry during a good film... makes it not worth watching. This is part of the objective with exposure - to do damage to the illusion. Even if the affair continues, it will now have a history of embarassing interruptions and painful moments in it... it wont' be the secret fun-filled fantasy it used to be.
Okay Allen.....now I am confused. Didn't you advise him to go to OM's workplace and sort of call him out about the A? I would think that was taking an aggressive stand. Now, you are warning him about being aggressive with OM. Maybe it's just me.
I dont see a contradiction here. Offering a warning does not dismiss the advice, it just helps to ensure he's been made aware of the potential impact.
We get a warning message from our computer's operating system before we delete a file from the system, but we do it anyways most of the time.
I don't see a contradiction here.
I am offering the warning to appease rabblerousers for the most part, I felt and still do that the potential impacts are obvious.
Rabblerousers? There are
rabblerousers here? Where??
Rabblerousers? There are
rabblerousers here? Where??
No comment
There are rabblerousers here? Where??
Certainly not me!
I've not been out of the fog long enough for you to use big words like that, Allen.
There are rabblerousers here? Where??
Certainly not me!
I've not been out of the fog long enough for you to use big words like that, Allen.
lol
I keep getting sucked back into that drama school of a thread, its almost as bad as the affair i had to deal with... its a good test of my patience though.. each time I sidestep an insult hurled at me I give myself a little pat on the back. lol
Rabblerousers? There are
rabblerousers here? Where??
No comment
Smartest move you made all day!
Puppy
Smartest move you made all day!
Puppy
lol
Maybe not the smartest, but I will concede the one that would protect me the best for the moment... I havent' seen drama on this forum that bad in a long time...
Wanting to hear from you, Ken.
OK here's an update: My wife got a part time job this week. She is making a little money now and I think she wants to get her own cell phone. She has been taking my cell phone with her "for emergencies" but I know that she used it to talk to the OM both yesterday and the day before. If I keep it from her, she gets very mad at me and says I am not her father.
Yesterday evening, she went shopping with me but refused to hold my hand. I went to church with the kids this morning and my wife stayed home and cooked lunch. She also talked to the OM by phone while I was gone. (He stays home from church too now.) I don't have recordings of any of the recent conversations. I also know that the OM send her a message today on her Facebook saying, "This is really hard for me but I think you will be better off if you forget about me." Not sure what prompted that, but I hope he's serious.
My wife said this evening that she had a headache and wanted to get out for awhile, so she left. Before she left, she begged me for the cell phone. I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems and I said to her, "Promise me that you won't call him (the OM)." She said she wouldn't and I gave it too her. To the best of my knowledge, she hasn't seen the OM for awhile although I can't be 100% sure. She likes to go off to a park to see the sunset by herself occasionally. Of course it's possible that she will talk to the OM on the phone, but it will be recorded this time if she does.
Can I please have some crack cocaine to take with me, pleeeeeze???
"Oh, OK -- no problem. I don't want to make you angry, after all."
Puppy
Puppy, i could smell the scarcasm before I even logged in.. lol
"Honey, can I borrow your condoms? I ran out of mine, and I need to go meet with OM tonite."
Like I said, "good LORD!"
I'm not!Ken do you remember this? (
Written to you here on Feb 2nd:)
Ken, I don't have time to read your entire situation but I will tell you this:
1. YOU DO NOT GIVE HER YOUR PHONE. PERIOD.
2. You do not give her ANYTHING or provide ANYTHING that will enable her to continue her affair.
3. LISTEN to what Sandi is telling you. She KNOWS what she is talking about and has been giving you sound advice.
<SNIP>
What the hell is wrong with you? Next time she asks lead her into the kitchen, pull out the carving knife, put it in her hand and hold it against your heart. Then tell her, "Go on stick it in!!!! Just kill me and get this over with. Is that what you want? Do it. Go ahead and do it!"
GROW A PAIR and learn how to say "
NO!!!"
She has been taking my cell phone with her "for emergencies" but I know that she used it to talk to the OM both yesterday and the day before. If I keep it from her, she gets very mad at me and says I am not her father.
You know her and you know what she is doing. Why do you give in to what she demands? Why are you afraid of her anger?
she went shopping with me but refused to hold my hand
So, you are still trying to pursue physical affection.....after we told you to stop.
I also know that the OM send her a message today on her Facebook saying, "This is really hard for me but I think you will be better off if you forget about me." Not sure what prompted that, but I hope he's serious.
Of course he is not serious, Ken. Wake up! He is just playing "poor kitty".
I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems
AVOID PROBLEMS?
Look Ken, you need to know the difference between "peace" and "avoiding problems". She is having an affair! You are helping her to have this affair. How do you see that as avoiding problems.
Let me put it to you like this. This is how I see you, if she would just not get upset (mad) at you and keep things calm at home and give you physical affection....then you would be happy. Am I right? I doubt you would even fuss about OM if she would just give you physical affection b/c that has been your real problem throughout all of this.
I was very reluctant to give it too her but I wanted to avoid problems
AVOID PROBLEMS?
Look Ken, you need to know the difference between "peace" and "avoiding problems". She is having an affair! You are helping her to have this affair. How do you see that as avoiding problems.
Neville Chamberlain "avoided problems." Hitler took the Rhineland -- and half of Europe -- anyway.
Appeasement doesn't work.
Puppy
Puppy, I think helping Ken to be aware of the consequences of enablement is in order here?
ken, most EA's become PA's.
If your wife divorces you and runs off with him, then you can't protect her anymore.
Less than 1% of divorce couples last long term. The result is someone cheats on someone else, or someone ends up depresseed and leaves again, domestic violence is not unheard of.
If this OM is willing to behave this way to your home, you, your family, and your wife, his integrity is in serious question.
You want your wife running off with someone like THAT ? You say you love her, but right now when you enable her, you are just loving YOURSELF and letting HER get MORE involved with someone who is 99% likley to just be USING her for SEX and will DISCARD her long term.
You think what YOU are doing when you allow her to cheat is loving HER?
It's not, its loving YOURSELF and what YOU get right NOW. Your WIFE is headed for SERIOUS trouble and you are HELPING OM to HURT her right now. The end result is your WIFE getting HURT when you give her that phone.
Puppy, I think helping Ken to be aware of the consequences of enablement is in order here?
Possibly. But after taking Sandi's advice and reading up on Ken's entire first thread, and adding to that how he's (non-) responded to this one, I really think none of it is going to matter much.
He's gotta "WANNA," or else we can't help him. And you can't MAKE someone, "wanna."
Puppy
Yup... I am thinking this Ken's goal here is more about how to help him rather than helping her, and right now she's in a lot more serious trouble than he is.
OK maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do to let her have the cell phone yesterday evening. Se told me she wouldn't call the OM, but she did call him. I was able to record her side of the conversation and she was telling him that she was mad at him for the email he sent saying that she's better off without him and she's mad at him for complaining about sleeping on a cold hard floor on the night she went to stay with him in his other house and saying that he wanted to go back to his house and sleep in his comfortable bed with his wife. So she thinks he doesn't really love her. She's also mad at him for never making plans so they can be together.
I suppose I can keep the cell phone from her, but she's probably going to call him anyway from our house and she will very likely get her own cell phone in a day or two now that she's making money. Oh and in addition I will have to suffer the wrath of Khan and accusations of being "controlling" etc.
Ken, that was INTEL and a good move on your part. Bravo
If you can record her half of the convos when you give her your cell then by all means do so.. in THAT case, its worth it so you know better where things are at...
Again Bravo...
Oh and in addition I will have to suffer the wrath of Khan and accusations of being "controlling" etc.
So??
Learn to focus on DOING THE RIGHT THING, instead of on "what will make her mad? How will her being mad make ME feel?"
Do that, and the rest falls into line.
My wife had a new cellphone within THREE HOURS of me cutting hers off. So what? I DID THE RIGHT THING. I was no longer paying for her to conduct her affair right under my nose, and I GAINED HER RESPECT.
Puppy
I am considering starting a thread of "Why Do LBH's Fear Their WAW's Anger?" I have never seen so many guys shudder at the thought of their W getting mad. I would like to know what has become of the men in our society.
I agree, Sandi.
It's not universal, but I would roughly estimate that there are 8-10x as many men afraid of their wayward wives, as vice-versa.
I'll admit, I was once a classic "Mr. Nice Guy" too, but I got over it VERY quickly once I decided to attack my wife's affair and fight for my marriage.
Puppy
I think there are a lot of men who terrorize their spouses daily... we just don't see those men, or their wives on this forum.
I agree Allen, but I'm talking about LBH's who are afraid to stand up to the WAW. I don't get it.
Sandi,
Sadly, I think that Western culture -- and the media -- have largely emasculated the Western male. Little boys are taught that playing a simple game of "tag" on the school playground is "stalking behavior," and kissing little Amanda on the cheek in the lunchroom is "sexual harassment," and little Joshua gets expelled for it.
Men are taught to just help out around the house, don't over-assert your own emotional or physical needs, and just "go along to get along," for the most part. "Sensitive, Caring Guy" has replaced "Old-School Neanderthal Guy," and NEITHER of them is a healthy model for a successful male/female relationship.
So yeah, they've taken our 'nads away, and we let 'em!!
Puppy
Thought I'd add my two cents as someone going through this right now. Puppy your assessment seems bang on to me.I had a Neanderthal father and vowed to not be him but became 'sensitive, caring guy' but you know what...it wasn't authentic and it led me to sit back and do nothing which must have seemed like abandonment to my w. Now I am struggling with solutions to my current problem waffling between both approaches.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1963383#Post1963383
Yep, I'm struggling with this one, too.
I thought I was being a good husband by working on what I thought I heard my W say she wanted, but it turns out I was WAY off the mark.
Since then, she is quick to blast me when she feels I have slighted her, pressured her about our R, or taken steps to attack the A. I, on the other hand, have been slow to react or confront, since I have a pretty good idea how this movie ends and have been trying to hold onto my life as long as possible while I work on a rewrite of the ending.
I have put up with a lot of crap for the last few months while trying to keep my family together, and am only now starting to stand up for myself and fight for what I know is right. Even now, I know I should go further than I have, but haven't been able to make myself do it yet.
Some of it may be how my W controls me. I think she knows I won't confront her or start a fight with her when I think things are going well between us, since I don't want to move backwards.
FWIW, when the eventual fights do come, it also makes it especially hurtful when she tells me, "My feelings for you haven't changed. You annoy the living !@#$ out of me. I was just trying to be nice and tolerate you so we wouldn't fight..."
Have you READ Divorce Remedy?
MWD is QUITE CLEAR on this point
Ignore fifty percent of what your spouse DOES, and 100 %.. YES ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of what she SAYS
It's ALL ADDICTION TALKING.. its BUNK...
After you bust up the affair and the withdrawal period runs its course your wife will DENY even SAYING half of what she is saying now...
I am considering starting a thread of "Why Do LBH's Fear Their WAW's Anger?" I have never seen so many guys shudder at the thought of their W getting mad. I would like to know what has become of the men in our society.
Sandi for some here this is the journey where they lose the boy and become a man for the first time in their lives. I know it is what happened to me.
Its a battle against passive aggressive tendencies. A battle against taking the path of least resistance. But sometimes the boy needs to be completely broken before he begins to fight for himself and learns to stand up to his wife. And when he does stand up. He will realize that he is equal.
If you start such a thread I will offer my advice on this journey that I am taking.
I am in the same journey. Right now preparing to expose.
I have to say sandi. Your situation is very similar to mine.
My wife told me she wanted to feel taken care of and protected. We were both unemployed. I busted my a** to find a job and worked my ass of 60 hrs a week to give her that. Did she appreciate it? NOPE. Was it what she really wanted for real ? NOPE. She needed other things I wasn't giving to her.
She always said she understood I had to work long hours but instead she found herself an old teacher from her High School on FB and spent hours complaining about how I neglected she felt. The guy, a 50 yo married man played it flawlessly and once he knew what she was lacking of he told her EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTED TO HEAR.
I tried to be kind, loving, thoughtful, give her space, respect her privacy, etc
I worked on my marriage the best way I could. Did she appreciate it? NOPE.
You need to let go if you're really serious. You can't rewrite this script, the movie is over. The film was burnt, ok? At least that's how I see it in my marriage.
You need to write a WHOLE different movie. Even if it's about you and your wife again but it needs to be a WHOLE different one.
And you won't get there until you start respecting yourself because respect and not purely love is the basis of a healthy loving relationship.
I wish your strength. Show her the man (as one wise friend told me). Show the man to yourself. Lose the boy. Try and use every minute of this to discover the real you, he's been hiding behind a shy boy. GET HIM OUT OF THERE.
Pls feel free to read my thread. I'm going through the same thing as you are.
Update: Today I recorded another phone conversation my wife had with the OM. She spent about two hours on the phone with him today talking about how she wants to be with him and is in love with him but she's not sure it's OK with God. And that she's not in love with me and doesn't think she can fall in love with me because she is not attracted to my personality. The OM has been married for 18 years and we have been married for 12. They talked about how they have both been faking it for years. They ended the conversation saying to each other "I love you", words that I haven't heard for several months now. What can I do?
"What can I do?"
Stop recording. Stop listening. That kind of intel is not good for you.
"What can I do?"
Stop recording. Stop listening. That kind of intel is not good for you.
Now that you know this (and I think it was GOOD to do), I agree -- just stop. There's nothing further you can gain if it's going to eat you up inside.
I know it hurts (like Hell), but this is all just so much SCRIPT. Every wayward says this. Five days before my wife begged me to take her back, she was texting OM saying "You're the only one who does it for me," and my own recordings turned up my wife saying she wasn't in love with me, and could never stay with me. Five days later, she's telling me "You're my home."
It's the fog.
Puppy
If you CAN stand to listen, there is valuable intel you can gather. You can tell what OM is doing that she likes, and what he does that she DOESN'T like, and you can use it to your advantage. I don't have time to give examples now, but I have a ton.
You have to be able to get yourself to a place, emotionally, where you are nearly COMPLETELY DETACHED, so you can get into the "gamesmanship" mode that you need to be in order to aggressively fight an affair. (ADs help). If you can't get to that place, and this stuff is just going to set you OFF your game, then you need to stop listening.
Make sense?
Puppy
Yes, thanks for that insight. I believe I can be completely detached. Yesterday evening, I did not talk with my wife at all. I like to know what's going on. I'd love to know how I can use the information to my advantage.
I notice my thread is up to page 10 and I may need to start a new thread, so if you are not able to post here, look for my new thread soon.
Ken, you may want to update your signature with a brief outline/timeline of your situation so everyone can help you out asap... once a thread gets long people aren't able to keep up to date as easily
You don't need to create a new thread just because there's 10 pages.
OK thanks. Last time my thread got to 10 pages, I was not able to post more.
Ken looks like you're doing OK...I've been out of the pic for a while, but will add more later...I agree about script- so don't loose heart, but def keep detached and dont drive yourself crazy
This has been going on for almost a year now. Have you enforced any boundaries at all? It just seems to me that your W does whatever she wants to do and never faces any consequenses. She clearly is not concerned about how you will react to her actions.
No one has yet shown me how I can enforce boundaries legally.
No one has yet shown me how I can enforce boundaries legally.
What do you mean? What is it you have WANTED to do, but couldn't, because it was illegal?
Sorry Ken, but I call "B.S." on this. Show me where YOU have wanted to do something strong . .. firm . . . but simply COULDN'T, because it was illegal.
The fact is, YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO, because you're afraid to stand up to your wife.
Puppy
I couldn't legally "kick her out". I did have had her sleep on the sofa for awhile. What else can I do other than ignore her and go about my business?
It's not so much that I am afraid to stand up to her, but I am more afraid that I might lose her for good by doing something stupid that I will regret.
Ken, youc an't force your wife to be faithful to you by law, there are NO LAWS against cheating in most of the US and throughout canada...
This is left to be governed by church organizations, family therapiss, and by individual conscience.
I understand there are a few states that penalize a spouse for cheating in family court and such, but by and large romantic and sexual commitments to one's spouse are not enforceable by law...
Note I am not a lawyer, this is just the info I have gathered
Boundaries need to be managed by you here, not by the court.
I couldn't legally "kick her out". I did have had her sleep on the sofa for awhile. What else can I do other than ignore her and go about my business?
It's not so much that I am afraid to stand up to her, but I am more afraid that I might lose her for good by doing something stupid that I will regret.
if you continue to let her disrespect you, you WILL very likely lose her for good... she's subconsciously testing your commitment and manhood here...
Let me put this at another angle here for Ken ok pup?
Ken have you ever played Poker? Five Card Draw, Five Card Stud, Holdem is the most popular right now..
Basically your wife is RAISING you when she starts an affair.
YOU need to show her you have a hand here that she shoudl NOT be challenging... if you can't bluff her or GET some leverage someplace you have to fold your hand, and the marriage.
So you need leverage to persuade her to show her commitment.. the first item of leverage is just asserting yourself.
You don't ask her to stop cheating, you tell her you KNOW she is and you pack her things FOR her... show her you MEAN BUSINESS
You have kids yes? Do you think she will walk out on them? If you think she won't ever do that then this whole affair thing is a BLUFF.. CALL her on it by packing for her.. tell her she can have him or she can have her husband and kids... tell her to pick up the bag and go... see what she does...
THAT is you RE-RAISING her raise BIGTIME
Great analogy, Allen.
I will add this too, Ken. There are things that I did in my sitch, to bust my wife's affair, that were NOT legal.
They were also, very EFFECTIVE.
And yeah, I even BLUFFED a time or two.
I'm sorry, but I figured if my marriage was going to end, I was gonna go down swinging, with EVERYTHING I had.
Puppy
The one I gave someoen else here, about telling his wife that he had a tool on her computer to log every conversation she had and every website she went to... that as well was a bluff... he didn't even have her password to install anything
but it made her think twice about cheating! lol
I just hope Ken plays poker
And WELL.. :|
No one has yet shown me how I can enforce boundaries legally
WHAT????
Then perhaps you should go back and read your first thread. If I remember correctly, you were given quite a bit of information about boundaries and I asked you more than once to talk to a lawyer or police officer to see where you stood about throwing her out, RO against OM, etc. Besides, it doesn't have to be something involving legal actions. I am talking about personal boundaries in the way she walks all over you. That is what I'm talking about!
It's hard, when someone's begging for someone on the board to tell them exactly what to do, and your advice to them is to stop letting other people tell them exactly what to do.
Too damned many people on here lately looking for OTHER people to do their dirty work for them. THESE ARE YOUR MARRIAGES, PEOPLE!!!
Puppy
I was thinking something like that puppy, I was wondering why Ken wants to use the legal system to protect his marriage... sounds like a lot of hassle and not the most effective route... wh en was the last time the legal system protected anyone very well?
IDK, maybe "boundaries" is not understood on a personal relationship level. I copied a lot of quotes from Coach's thread on boundaries and I think I told him where to look it up. Sometimes I would think he didn't understand certain things "I" would say, and sometimes I thought it was fear of losing his W that prevented him from doing any action at all. Just about the time I think I might as well give up....then I find myself trying again.
I don't want Ken to give up on his M, but I want him to take a stand and stop allowing this woman and this OM to wipe their feet on him.
Yup, i hoenestly do think hes going through the deep freeze.. i had that early on... you realize your parnter is "on the fritz" so to speak, but you are afraid to Do ANYTHING beucase you think if you even BLINK the wrong way the whole thing will shatter into a million pieces...
Instinct is to "handle with care" but we know that don't work too well when an addiction is in play...
To back up a bit...
Boundaries are about you, ken. About what YOU will tolerate, what YOU do. Not about what others do. Pack her bags! She may call your bluff, so what. What do you really have to lose? Your wife? She's already out of the marriage by having an affair.
Fear is a message telling you that you may not be prepared for what's coming. It is just a message. Rather than take that message and turn it into paralyzing worry, take concrete steps to become prepared.
Avermont recently did a fear exercise. She wrote the most awful things that could possibly happen. When re-read, you can see them in perspective. (Her were quite entertaining, sorry aver! it was funny!)
So, what is the most awful result of telling her to end the affair or get out!
(Have you read Harley or Dobson?)
OK it's been about a week since I last posted. My wife got herself a cell phone yesterday. She has not been seeing the OM, but she still talks to him every couple of days on the phone and they still say "I love you" and "I miss you" to each other. I went to church with my kids and my wife took the opportunity to talk to the OM for about an hour and a half. They mostly just chatted about random stuff, but when they finished the conversation, they told each other "I love you" and "I miss you".
I told her that I knew she was still talking to him and that I could not share her with another man and that she would have to stop talking with him or she would have to leave. I also went to the garage to get a luggage bag for her. She says I am "controlling" and called me a few names and started to look for an apartment on the internet. I left for awhile and she called the OM and he offered her his other house which is empty right now and said that he'd like to be with her but he wants to make sure his wife is working first, etc. My wife thanked him and sounded like she may actually move out soon. We'll see.
Is the stuff the OM said recorded someplace?
If you have that recorded, take it to his wife.
Oh yes, I have it all recorded on a digital voice recorder. But the OM's wife is about as dumb as a box of rocks. I'm pretty sure she will confront him directly about it and the cat will be out of the bag about what I am doing (recording wife's conversations) and then I'll be seen as more "controlling". That's my main concern. The OM's wife knows their is an affair going on and is trying to fix things (although she doesn't really know how).
I'm pretty sure she will confront him directly about it and the cat will be out of the bag about what I am doing (recording wife's conversations) and then I'll be seen as more "controlling". That's my main concern.
And therein lies your problem, Ken.
So long as "being seen as being controlling" is your main concern, instead of BUSTING THEIR AFFAIR, and SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE, then you'll be forever in passive fear mode.Puppy
Good call Pup
Ken, being controlling is NOT a bad thing
You know what the opposite of control is?
OUT of control.. which is what your WIFE and your MARRIAGE are right now...
WHEN do you plan on getting your marriage and your wife UNDER control again?
How do you expect to get this problem under control when you don't want to look controlling?
It's dime for some DAMAGE CONTROL... NOW
If you refuse to control the situation, its just going to get WORSE
Out of curiosity what's the worse that can happen here if you appear controlling?
Your wife might cheat on you? SHe's already doing that
Your wife might divorce you? She's already planning that too
Your life might fall apart? Hello?
Your FEARS are coming true anyways... you are already bringing that about BECAUSE you won't control the situation.
Your trading control for her freedom is going to cost you yoru marriage.
OK, sharing this info with the OM's wife may not help... But don't hold back because you are afraid of her. If you think this is gonna go away on its own you are a fool. I've been there it does NOT GO AWAY, it gets a LOT MORE PAINFUL for YOU after this point... we are TRYING to SPARE you that.
What IS the OMW doing to "fix" this? Buying him flowers and chocolates?
Allen, thank you so much for your on the spot advice - I am in a desperate situation right now. Your right, and I totally understand. I think my wife may choose to move out this morning because of my ultimatum (I tried to present it as a boundary - I think it may have come out sounding more like an ultimatum). She basically refuses to stop talking to the OM and I told her that if she wants to continue talking to the OM, she would have to leave. The OM has a spare empty house for her to stay in. She slept on the sofa last night. I'm starting to think I shouldn't have said anything. The night before was so much better.
I wouldn't be surprised if the OMW is buying flowers and chocolates, but she told me yesterday she is using something called Marriage Fitness.
I wouldn't think too much of the OMW. Some women would rather live in denial. It's a choice.
When your W and the OM were talking together during church, was this in person or on the phone?
They were on the phone. I had the conversation recorded.
A question - Is it possible for my wife and the OM to "just be friends"? They supposedly are not seeing each other any more. Suppose they stop telling each other "I love you"? Am I being ridiculous to make such a big deal out of them talking on the phone?
She basically refuses to stop talking to the OM and I told her that if she wants to continue talking to the OM, she would have to leave. The OM has a spare empty house for her to stay in. She slept on the sofa last night. I'm starting to think I shouldn't have said anything. The night before was so much better.
"Better," how? Ken, "peace" is not the absence of conflict. You stood up for yourself, and you were absolutely right to do so. If she reacts poorly to that, then that is her choice, but you still did the right thing.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Puppy
A question - Is it possible for my wife and the OM to "just be friends"? They supposedly are not seeing each other any more. Suppose they stop telling each other "I love you"? Am I being ridiculous to make such a big deal out of them talking on the phone?
Ken,
BEST case, theirs is a one-sided love/EA, where this man is in love with your wife and pursuing her. So, in this case, do you REALLY think it would be emotionally healthy for you to live in a marriage where your wife carries on a friendship with such a man? Would YOU feel safe in such a relationship?
You have stated what your boundary is. ("I will not live in an open marriage.") Even IF this were "just a friendship" (and I don't think either one of us believes that it is, do you?) -- Your wife has, in effect, chosen to place that friendship ahead of her marriage, which is just plain WRONG.
Puppy
Thanks so much for that answer, Puppy Dog Tails. I needed that reassurance. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and right now I am definitely taking the "hit". It's so hard not to think that I should leave well enough alone. But so many on here are saying the same thing (that I should stand up for myself) and I certainly don't want to become a statistic three or six months down the road.
While she is venting and fuming should I just leave her alone? I really don't know what to say to her right now. I kind of exploded last night and when I went to see her on the sofa, she looked at me and said, "What?!" I just said, "I just wanted to say 'good morning' and I'm sorry about last night".
Thanks so much for that answer, Puppy Dog Tails. I needed that reassurance. This is the hardest thing I have ever done and right now I am definitely taking the "hit". It's so hard not to think that I should leave well enough alone.
It wasn't "well enough," Ken. She was (and is) cheating on you.
Puppy
I really don't know what to say to her right now. I kind of exploded last night and when I went to see her on the sofa, she looked at me and said, "What?!" I just said, "I just wanted to say 'good morning' and I'm sorry about last night".
YOU SAID THIS TO HER????And that's exactly what you have done in the past, Ken, and it's enabling, and that sort of "pleasing/supplicating/rescuing" behavior has led to your current marital state. How's that workin' out for ya? (Dr. Phil)
YES, YOU LEAVE HER ALONE. If she says anything to you, you say "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Look, Ken, if you have an angry outburst, then apologize for your anger. And certainly, if you do something genuinely wrong, then apologize for THAT. But DO NOT apologize for fighting for your marriage, nor your boundary of "I will not live in an open marriage."
This supplicating behavior of yours not only DOESN'T WORK, I can assure you, she sees it as WEAK and UNATTRACTIVE.
Puppy
Here's how you could phrase it:
"Look, I'm sorry I raised my voice last nite. I should learn to control my anger better. But I will NOT apologize for not being willing to live in a marriage where my wife carries on an inappropriate relationship with another man."
Puppy
OK thank you. I understand. I'll just leave her alone till she says something to me, and I'll keep the phrase in mind - "I'm sorry you feel that way".
No Ken, not just I am sorry you feel that way but
"I am sorry you feel that way, BUT I stand by what I said -- I refuse to stand here and watch my wife hurt our marriage and our children by committing infidelity - it is hurtful to this entire family."
You CAN apologize for yelling, but make it CLEAR you are NOT backing down from what your position is.
If you just say I am sorry, she will just think you are TAKING BACK the boundary.
I did this one a LOT in my home. It leaves them disarmed. On the one hand you are being sympathetic, but at the same time you are holding your dignity in tact... they often don't know how to respond to it.
Always include two points :
1. Offer her Love
2. Command her Respect
You always do 1, but you often leave out 2, and she exploits that.
I agree- and Sandi and others have said how disgusted they ar when a LBH does the flip flop b/c WAW is angry, or LBH FEARS he upset WAW.
You CAN'T do that- like PUP says, take the short-term hit...If you havent read NUTS it's stated pertty clear there...
I know it's tough, I pulled the same shirt...
I had my final vent w/ W a week ago, there was no appology or "hey are you mad..." Haven't spoken in a week...great 180 for me- truth darts, and healthy posturing...
Go NC ignore rants, sweetness, and spew...
She's made her choice, now focus on you
Thanks Allen. You're right. I'll try to remember to do it that way from now on. I guess I've just been so afraid of her leaving thinking that it would be hard to get her back at that point. But like some have pointed out here, she already has one foot out of the door. I keep thinking it would be easier to keep her if I don't run her off.
Thanks Allen. You're right. I'll try to remember to do it that way from now on. I guess I've just been so afraid of her leaving thinking that it would be hard to get her back at that point. But like some have pointed out here, she already has one foot out of the door. I keep thinking it would be easier to keep her if I don't run her off.
But your fear is leaving you ASSUMING you asserting yourself WILL run her off.
Its a poker game Ken, she's playing her hand and she's raising you bigtime... you can RAISE her back or fold..
There's no place for nice when you are playing poker. You need to show her you are in the game, or you are out of it.
"A question - Is it possible for my wife and the OM to "just be friends"? "
Nope she said she loves him. That's not a friend.
Puppy's right. Don't apologize for something you know you're doing is right.
Here Ken, right from Penny Tuppy :
Infidelity and the Egg
Penny R. Tupy 2004
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
All the King's horses
And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again
I'm often asked why people who have affairs must permanently end all contact with their affair partner if their marriage is to recover and heal. After all, they were often friends with the lover prior to the affair and they don't want to lose the friendship along with all the other losses an affair leaves in its wake.
There are lots of quick and easy answers to that question. Ongoing contact is offensive and painful for the spouse, the affair is likely to rekindle, true healing of the marriage can't begin while the involved spouse is still emotionally connected to the affair partner. They are all valid reasons and there are good scientific reasons to back them up. So what more is there to say? I had a sudden visual image the other day that spoke to me about this issue and I'm hoping I can relay it in a way that makes it clearer.
The vast majority of affairs occur with someone we know. A close friend, co-worker, or even family member. Prior to an affair, even relationships as close as long term friendships retain a level of distance. Shirley Glass (Not Just Friends, 2003) describes it well when she speaks about the walls healthy marriages have erected around the couple to protect them from outside risks.
Intimacy requires vulnerability. As an affair couple moves along the continuum from friendship to lover layers of protection are peeled away. Topics that were off limits become primary areas of conversation. Touch that is reserved for the marriage is now exchanged with someone outside the marriage. Looks that pass between lovers are different than those that pass between friends and that layer or protection is now peeled away as well. Little by little, the walls that surround and protect the marriage are breached. The layers of distance are stripped away leaving the partners open, vulnerable, and intimately known at a level deeper than merely friendship.
When couples connect at this level they come to know each other in a way that cannot be reversed. They cannot unknow what they have come to see beneath the layers. Nor can they disconnect entirely from the intimacy that knowing creates.
When the affair ends, as most do, the layers of protection are gone. Just as all the King's Horses and all the King's Men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again – neither can we replace the layers covering the deepest most vulnerable parts of our being. We have been seen and we cannot remove the memory of that vision. An orange, once peeled, is forever revealed. The same is true of the human heart and soul.
Years later, an old flame – long forgotten and newly met – can touch us in ways someone who has not known us so deeply has no power to do. We know the inner core of our former loves, and they ours. This is, at the primal level, the reason contact with an affair partner must permanently end. That knowing – that depth of connection – cannot be undone. To remain in contact is to ever put the marriage at risk. To remain in contact sabotages our ability to recreate that level of knowingness and intimacy with our mate.
This is why our spouses are so offended and threatened with continued or renewed contact. They intuitively sense the missing protective layers of unknowing. They instinctively recognize the connection that has been created and the danger is poses to the marriage. They know in their depths that as long as contact continues healing cannot fully occur.
Friends can easily become lovers. But the reverse is not true. Lovers cannot easily become "just" friends.
Great breakdown- I know that if opportunity had been presented to me I could intimately be w/ any of my ex's...for the very reasons mentioned above- former intimacy and such...
I now understand Allen's point about life-boating and how important it is to NOT communicate w/ any ex's for that very reason...
Ke, you have that level of intimacy...right now her windows and walls (S. Glass) are configured in a way where your M is neglected, her feelings for you and her level of intimacy w/ you is obscured...THEY ARE NOT JUST FRIENDS...if it's effecting your M it is parasitic and damaging.
No more appeasing her, let her be angry, pissed, hateful, etc...all of those things are examples of "passion" or deeper feelings...
You need to be indifferent and "on your way..."
Ken your W is the one who is controlling in the M.
You have been in this spot before whenever you tried to enforce a boundary and then if she hinted at leaving, you would back down...try to talk yourself into thinking "it would work itself out" and now you're trying to convince yourself that W & OM are "just friends".
It is showtime, Ken. You have got to "show" your W you mean busines this time. So what if she leaves? Let her move into OM's extra house. Let OM be financial responsible for her. This is a sure way for the A to be over and done with once and for all. I truly believe it will take them getting sick of each other for the A to end.
OM'sW is too much of a coward to do anything. She has no backbone and she's trying to use some program to improve her M ....which won't work when her H is in an A. So, I wouldn't even mess with her. You found that out a long time back when she allowed your W to stay at their house.
The time for testing has come. Your manhood will be tested, so stick to your guns and just let her walk right out the door. Do not act upset by her leaving, Ken. That is exactly what she's hoping. She does these thing in order to control you. Allow her to show the world & the church what her true colors are...and don't you dare rescue her. Her moving out does not mean there won't be any more chances at a future with her. But I have to wonder why you would want to share your life with a person who would do you like this.
I will second sandi's advice. Her moving into OM's house will give their romance some reality. A good dose of that won't hurt you. When she leaves, your response to the world should be..."She moved into a love nest OM set up for them." Being the OW can't be fun. When he's not there to meet her needs and you aren't either? Hmmmmm. not so romantic anymore. When she comes second ALL THE TIME? Not so romantic anymore. YOu stay out of it!
For now, I suggest you back off your insistence she change her behavior. You have stated your boundary. Now, be polite but no more trying to convince her. She is using that to justify her affair. The 180 list is around here somewhere...read it again.
Let go of the fear of her leaving. It will be ok. She is SUE from Harley's SAA. I'm sure your outcome will be the same. Maybe not until OMW puts up boundaries of her own or Your W gets sick of poor treatment from OM. Their A will end (my crystal ball tells me so!)
Sandi, thank you. I'm paying close attention. I don't want to screw it up again like I did the first time - although even then they at least did stop seeing other so much.
A question - a friend from church suggested that I enforce the boundary by blocking the phones rather than kicking her out under the theory that it would be easier to keep her than to get her back. I said that I'd post it on the forum to see what you guys thought about that. So what do you think?
I'm waiting to see if she makes any calls to the OM. That's my sign that I need to do something to enforce my boundary that I set yesterday.
You are wondering why I would want to share my life with a person like this, and that is very understandable. I have probably made her look pretty bad on this forum. But before the affair started, she was the model wife - a good mother, a great cook, beautiful, and she always tried to please me which I now see that I often took for granted. I also want what's best for the kids and they love us both dearly. It is also my conviction as a Christian that I should not divorce my wife - except perhaps for marital unfaithfulness. So if it gets to be a physical affair, I suppose at that point I would seriously consider it.
And thanks WhatNow for your input too - Who was Sue from Harley's SAA? I'd love to read about it.
If your wife is using anything from your home to contact OM you cut it off.
Household phone, Internet access etc.. you lock him out.
She will complain.
Just tell her
I will not put our households finances towoards you actively trying to DESTROY our marriage and HURT our chidlren.
OUR finances are for our CHILDREN. This house is to support THEM NOT to support YOUR CHEATING.
I refuse to support an affair in our home, financially or emotionally - no cheating.. it will NOT be supported.
Household finances are for healthy endeavors.
No drugs, no alcohol, no gambling, no pornography, no infidelity... NONE of these will be financed by this household.. PERIOD.
A question - a friend from church suggested that I enforce the boundary by blocking the phones rather than kicking her out under the theory that it would be easier to keep her than to get her back.
I don't see that as an example of enforcing a boundary. You lay down the boundary and then it is up to her to abide by that boundary.
I dunno Sandi, i encouraged Eyeore to handle his problem the same way - cut off the internet and phone.
Its a hollow boundary if you leave path open to violate it... he's pratically inviting it. These people are ADDICTED... setting down a boundary and expecting them to be rational isn't realistic I dont' think.
If your children were using the internet to view pornography I would think a parent would do more than simply tell them to stop, they would shut the access DOWN.
This is why we have a police force in addition to a legal system... the police show people that the gov't MEANS BUSINESS when they lay down the law.
Laying down a law and not policing it hardly is effective or convincing that you are serious is it?
I am not wondering! I think most of us know too well the "change" WS's go through in the "fog". I am right with you in our sitches, maybe a bit ahead of you on the timeline. We all love and are deeply attached to our WS's, at least who they were. It is difficult to understand what has happened to them. They look like our S. Sometimes, they even act and sound like our S. But their ability to make sense and reason is GONE!
Surviving an affair by Harley. Sue is his example WS. His ideas towards affair busting are very similar to DBing. His Plan A is a bit too "doormatty" for me, but being the better option and 180ing during this time is a good attitude so that when WS does leave, they leave with a positive impression of you. On that note, stay calm, polite, and truth dart her! If she does leave, cut her phones and all financial benefit of your M.
If she doesn't respect the boundary, then she should have consequences.
Exactly, you set the boundary, if she violates it, you cut her off.
I think particulary in Ken's case making an active showing that he will ACT to protect his home, his children, his family as a whole, from outside interference is a firm statement.
Locking up the phone and the internet is the same as locking your door at night.. its to keep the creeps OUT of your HOME
Well Sunday was a fairly quiet normal day. I was waiting to see what my wife would do - if she would still try to contact the OM. Today when I got home from work, she gave me a nice meal like she always does (no greeting though as usual lately). Then I saw a message she wrote to the OM saying she'd call him tomorrow and then I told her that I needed to talk to her.
I gave her a form letter for her to send to the OM which reads "Ken and I want you to know that out of respect and love for my husband and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Ken did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay Ken for the pain I have caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship." But then she just ripped it up and threw it in the garbage. She then left to take our oldest daughter to music class and will be back in about an hour or so.
So unfortunately it appears the time has come for me to ask her to leave which I believe she will do since the OM has offered her his second empty house. I just hope and pray that I'm doing the right thing. I have heard some say it's easier to keep her than to get her back. Lord help me! I am so not ready for this. Am I doing the right thing?
So when whe leaves (if she leaves) go NC unless it involved wee one and that's a wrap...nothing more you can do than cut her off, protect yourself and your family...and be prepared for whichever way the chips fall...
In my sitch, I laid down the law, telling W to leave- "but I have nowhere to go..."
Once she met OM2- she didn't mind sleeping at 3 diff houses- in fact she loved it b/c all of her friends could see what a tyrant I was and she felt fully supported to have her way...UGH
Ken you are a man and you're doing what you need to do...now, don't back down, ask her to leave and be the best dad you can be...no apologies, NC
BTW- if she will not honor your boundary to have NC w/ OM...why even try to keep her...
Hopefully you've bee Plan Aing for a bit now, working your 180's etc...if not no worries, it's hard as hell to do w/ OM around anyway...
Did you read NUTS?
OK thanks jasper67 - I appreciate your response. No, haven't read NUTS, what is it?
Hold on to you NUTs- non negotiable, un alterable Terms...this book put much into perspective for me...very easy and quick read, and life-changing if truly contemplated and embraced.
One other concern I have - If I ask my wife to leave, doesn't that look bad in court?
I told my W; that if she wanted to act like a single woman then she had to live like one too. That the kids and I would NOT be disrespected in OUR home. So you have a choice, live like a mother and a wife; or find another option.
She left on her own accord.
I like the way you put that. I wanted to ask some people how long the wife stayed gone and I really wish I could somehow know the success rate of this plan.
Well..don't look to me for long term success on keeping a M together. My W came back that first night all tears and apologies. 5 months later, she moved out and hasn't come back.
But I stood my ground on principle and I couldn't control her anyway. The mistake that I might have made was not doing the right things to change me. It might not have mattered; but it certainly wouldn't have hurt. Because of my W's personality; my changes probably wouldn't have had much effect.
I found DB about 2 months before she moved out; but it didn't keep her home. DB did wonders for me personally.
I've tried DB'ing after she moved out; but she was never around. Too busy living the single life and working on finding her next man. See my W had an A 5 months prior to separation. I successfully busted that A; but she went an infidelity spree looking for her next man. When she finally found one that she could charm; she stuck with him. He came around after we separated and didn't know that she was still married.
About the time the W started to come back around; sniffing to see if the road home was open, she came up pregnant.
Here we are one year later; just about to submit our settlement paperwork.
KEEP THIS IN MIND...don't read into my sitch as evidence your plan won't work. My wife is a special breed and not typical of most WAS who leave for another person. She left and didn't have an OM; my W used sex to coerce someone into a R She was just living single and anyone would do at the moment.
So I still believe that I made the right move in giving her that ultimatum. She has to be responsible for her own choices; but I don't have to underwrite and finance them. She chose to live that life under a different roof or roofs. I got the chance to detach. What I really needed was a debriefing...
I haven't asked my wife to leave yet because we have to go together today to get our house loan modification papers signed in front of a notary. I plan on asking her after that. Yesterday I told her that a fellow church friend knew some dark things about the OM's past and she really blew up at me and called me several names and was throwing her hands in front of my face and yelling. I actually remained calm this time and I got it all recorded. Perhaps I should have just not said anything. I hate the idea of having her leave on such a sour note and such a negative last impression of me.
I hate the idea of having her leave on such a sour note and such a negative last impression of me.
If they had a positive opinion of you; they wouldn't leave.
I certainly wasn't positive when I made myself clear to my W. I was serious! Her impression of you is HER deal. You have to do this for YOU and YOUR kids. It's for your own sanity. If this continues unabated in your household; you will go crazy.
Ken, you make sure you can leave her alone and not be pleading with her to return to you once she leaves. If you don't have the stength to stick to it...don't try b/c she will really be bad after that. Don't do this thinking it is a gimmick to get her back. Do it b/c she is dishonoring the M.
Thanks Sandi, I understand. I noticed that today she was doing research to see if it is a criminal offense to read someone's email and record phone calls, etc. I can see that she is REALLY mad at me about that. A friend in church says I should stop doing that and that it is hurting my sitch. But that's the only way I know if she is talking to the OM and she is.
I'm not quite sure yet if I should ask her to leave. I think I could maintain limited contact. We have kids together so trying to have no contact would be difficult.
I wouldnt worry about it too much...Maybe I should though...oh well.
No worries about telling her about OM's dark side-
Sure its not what she would want to hear, BUT Allen stresses that a LBH stress the dangers / "certainty" pf an A failing- so that you cannot be blamed for co-signing---also should OM resort to his past darkness, at least you lovingly warned W.
Should she move- Sandi is correct, STAND BY IT- do not let her back, no matter what...only on your terms.
My W moved in and out several times...it hurt every time to watch her leave again.
Just be strong and know that it's the right thing to do...you cant make her want to stay, but if she's disrespecting the M...she shouldn't be there...
She'll prob pack EVERYTHING to make a statement...my W was leaving for a weekend and she packed 4 suitcases- naturally I said WTF and cried like a baby...she was back 2 days later...then came home drunk a few days after that saying, "I just can't do it."
Eff them... there will be mind games and mind F*(^s...you are SUPERCOOL w/ all of them
And if not- thats the way to act as if...
They are confused, you are not...they want validation for leaving...just dont give it to her
Your W sounds like she is daring you to do anything. She is so bold with her rebellion she sounds as if she is wanting to see if you have the b@lls to kick her out.
I did not mean that you were never to have contact with her, but I meant that you were not to be trying to sweet talk her into reconciling once she leaves. If she cannot reconcile for the right reasons, then it would all be for nothing.
I really think that she and OM will end their A once she is depending fully on him and he has to deal with her and his W, but you have to make this decision on what you think you can or can't do.
How about an update, Ken?
I went to church with my kids again and when I got home I noticed that she had spend about 2 hours on the phone with the OM again. But this time I didn't confront her about it. I've started reading a book called "Hold Me Tight" and got the idea to try to talk to her and express my feelings about the distance between us. We talked for quite awhile and talked about what the Bible says about divorce in Romans 7, Dt. 24, and 1 Cor. 7, which she brought up because I have learned the hard way not to bring that up. She expressed how she is disagrees with God for the viewpoint on marriage and divorce expressed in the Bible.
We also talked about how I saw the OM as pursuing her which she also brought up, and she listened to all my concerns. In the end, she seemed to decide to give me another chance and has started sleeping in the bed again. and seems much more loving towards me as of now.
Ken, I own that book. The introduction of the book Johnson says quite clearly that Hold Me Tight approach does NOT work when an affair is taking place.
Hold Me Tight is a refined approach and will work with MWD appraoch, but the author warns you in the beginning of the text that it will NOT help if an affair is underway.
You should be reading Harley and Tuppy, and others who specialize in infidelity.
THe issue isn't how loving she is twoards you, it is how much access OM has. She and many people in affairs try to play BOTH their LBS AND their affair partner... ask 4luv about that one.. she can confirm this.
Your wife's closeness to you is not an indicator that her affair is over. She needs to learn HONESTY, if she isnt' offering you THAT, then she's still playing you.
She expressed how she is disagrees with God
That would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
I take it that you decided not to ask her to leave after the house loan modification papers were notarized? I don't know how many times you have been back and forth with her with "talks". She seems to know what to do to teach you certain things not to do (you said you had learned your lesson) but you don't seem to know how to teach
her certain things not to do. She knows how to get you to suffer the consequences of doing any action she doesn't like. Can you not think of anyway to apply it to her? I wish you could, b/c
this talk won't do anymore than the other talks did.
Agree with Allen A. In the throes of the affair they will be pulling away from the spouse, Hold Me Tight approach will not work.
I'm sure there is a time and place for it at some part of recovery.
Don't get me wrong Ken, Hold me Tight is an excellent book, I would definitely put it in my Top Five... But it belongs on the shelf until the OM is GONE... The Author herself warns you about that.
Honesty is what's missing in your marriage right now... NOT physical closeness...
If you have Physical Closeness but she's lying to you.. You are being PLAYED... played in a very dangerous and hurtful game.
Thanks. I've heard of Harley with the Marraige Builder's program, but who is Tuppy?
My wife seems VERY concerned now that I told her that early on I noticed him checking her out physically. She thought he was more respectful than that. I told her that I'm sure that if she asked him about it, he would deny it and she seems to realize that. I also told her that back when the OM and I were friends, he would take a great interest in good-looking women and make long conversations with them, and I think she is also quite concerned about that. Don't know why it did not occur to me to tell her these things before. Back then I trusted her and wasn't worried about it, but I should have told her when these new problems started. I'm waiting to see now how things progress from here. I still hate the thought of asking her to leave where she may easily end up in a physical affair, so I guess I'm trying to exhaust every other option first.
Ken, many people do not seem to understand that when a W is involved in an emotional affair, it is too late to use these types of books like you mentioned. It is like a lot of people wait until their D is scheduled to hit the courtroom and then try to read a marriage improvement book. They don't need a "how to improve" book...they need a how to stop a divorce book.
You just cannot deal with a W who is in an affair--in the same fashion that you would deal with a W who is not in an affair. It is like comparing two completely different problems! You have to deal with a W in an A completely different than other troubled realtionships.
I think you feel powerless and think you can talk around the problem. I don't believe talk is going to work.
Tuppy is a FT who specializes in infidelity, she has an eBook on the www for combatting infidelity as well :
Give your wie the article of Penny's below to read :
----------------------------------------------------
Love As An Excuse For Infidelity
Penny R. Tupy 2003
So often in my work with spouses whose mates are in the midst of an affair I hear the anguished fear that because he or she claims to be, "in love" with the affair partner, it must mean that the marriage is over and the cheating lovers are meant to be together. Soulmates - because they now feel the intense passion of a fantasy relationship.
But of course they are, "in love." That's what an affair is. It's what the addiction is. It's an emotional response (without rationality, commitment or long term thinking) that causes us to do things that are not in our best interests and that hurt other people and destroy what we have worked hard to build in our lives - things like homes and families.
The idea that love should be the deciding factor is any of this is completely erroneous. As is the idea that love is some magical chemistry between two people. It's neither of those things. Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
The interesting thing about new infatuation/love is that we are blinded by the offensive or objectionable things at first. I think the pleasure of having needs met by someone new captures our attention to the point that we block out the less desirable traits. But like any addiction, what worked at first to create a high soon becomes not enough - we want more. When that happens in romantic relationships the irritating things seem to grow in proportion as the pleasure from getting needs met slackens. Unless real change takes place at this time - unless the real work of building a relationship kicks in - romantic love will wane.
This is when the instinct to demand more, to be rude or even to lose our tempers takes over. This is when the internal shift from, "You are so wonderful, what can I do for you," to "You aren't doing enough for me and I'm not willing to do anything for you - you jerk," occurs. This is where real marriage happens, when we move from - feeling like it- to making the commitment to doing what it takes to craft a truly connected and compatible relationship. This is where real love is grown.
For those, who have never honored commitment when the going got tough this is where they begin to bail. So, yes, I am sure that affair partners are in love. Does that mean it's the right place for them or that they have met 'the one'? Of course not. It means that they are in the habit of going for the feeling rather than committing to doing the work of making a truly successful relationship. Unless something greatly changes for these men and women, they will do the same again, and again. They will not find lasting happiness until they get it that marriage is more than feeling. Being in love is important, but staying there is what separates the men from the boys.
Be an advocate for marriage. When you hear of infidelity, take a stand. Refuse to condone affairs and "friendships" that threaten the integrity of the marriage bond. Educate your friends and families on the seriousness of becoming involved outside the marriage. Love is not an excuse for betrayal and abandonment. Love based on that foundation is like a house built on sand.
All the best,
Penny
You just cannot deal with a W who is in an affair--in the same fashion that you would deal with a W who is not in an affair. It is like comparing two completely different problems! You have to deal with a W in an A completely different than other troubled realtionships.
I think you feel powerless and think you can talk around the problem. I don't believe talk is going to work.
Yup Sandi, I try to put Infideilty with these sorts of problems :
Compulsive Gambling
Alcoholism
Drug Addiction
Criminal behaviour
Sociopathic/Borderline P behaviours
Infidelity
These above are
illnesses that require specialized treatment and a specaliized skill set - a traditional IC or FT is not equipped to deal with these. You cannot deal with them as PART of the marriage. These problems above must be dealt with FIRST before a marriage can safely be reconcilled and work done to repair the marriage itself.
You can try to negotiate with her, but infidelity is awfully addictive and I haven't seen that approach have much if any success.
Infidelity and other addictions or destructive behaviours need to be directly addressed and treated... you can try talking, but most often she's just going to do the following :
1. Tell you she's confused and try to keep the affair going as long as she can
2. Lie when you catch her and get fed up
3. Make a commitment to you and then fall back to the affair again
4. Sneak around until you catch her
again5. Tell you she's confused... (go back to step 1)
You can try to reason with an addict, but there aren't many documented cases of much success there... particularly that last long term.
If your wife is still confused about what love even MEANS then you need to address THAT. Your wife thinks love is
excitement rather than
active commitment. She's been watching too many movies...
My wife seems VERY concerned now that I told her that early on I noticed him checking her out physically. She thought he was more respectful than that
Now wait a minute. She is seriously messed up or else she thinks she can feed you anything and you'll believe it! This is a man who is cheating on his W and telling your W all this unscriptural stuff like how much he wants to be with her.
I still hate the thought of asking her to leave where she may easily end up in a physical affair,
This blows me away. I just can't understand your thinking. You hate to ask a woman who says she doesn't love you and wants to be with OM to leave b/c you are afraid it will turn to a PA?
This blows me away. I just can't understand your thinking. You hate to ask a woman who says she doesn't love you and wants to be with OM to leave b/c you are afraid it will turn to a PA?
Ken, I am trying to figure out who is in more denial here.. your wife that`her affair is at all constructive or has any hope of a future, or you denying there is greater risk in asserting yourself than reasoning with an addict while she cheats on you behind your back.
Ken. Your wife has an
addiction. You do realise she is NOT capable of constructive rational thought while she's in that state yes?
You are trying to avoid this becoming a PA, but the LONGER you allow her to CONTINUE the greater chance she will go to his bed.... the more contact she has with him the closer she gets to him and his bed... you can try to talk her out of that, but its the LONG route and the route with less success...
And there is a strong chance that any conversation she has with you that looks constructive, is just her humouring you to drag this out until she can sleep with him.
It`s your marriage and your wife...
Ken
In your earlier post, you indicated your wife DISAGREES with the Biblical viewpoint of marriage and divorce. Take some time to think about that in regard to her emotions vs what she "knows".
Since my wife seems to be saying that she wants to finally give me a second chance, I suggested to her that we block the OM's phone and she said she want to wait on that. I'm hoping that we can get that done this evening. If she agrees to that, I think that is great progress.
Ken
I don't know if this is proper technique or not, but if my wife said to me she wants to wait on that, I would have asked her why she felt that way. Personally, if my wife said that I would be curious how she felt.
Ken, Glimmer,
A wife should not stall on any movement like this. It hurts you, and she's supposed to minimize any new pain out of you at this poing and allow you to gain confidence in the commitment she's showing.
DaddyLongShanks
I agree. That's why when she didn't agree to block the number yet, I would have asked why. Sometimes when you hear yourself talking, you realize that you aren't making sense (or commitment).
At the very least, it's a red flag for Ken.
Her delaying, and talking about "I think about it" is saying to you that she feels she has all the cards. That you want her and she knows it, but she's "evaluating" the decision...
She's cake eating like a greasy pig.
He probably should have said "Don't bother, its OK wont be necessary". She does not expect this, and her ego may hear that response as getting combative, when WE all know it makes complete perfect sense.
my wife seems to be saying that she wants to finally give me a second chance,
Why do
you need a second chance, Ken? You are not the one having an affair. What about
her? Is she at all concerned if she gets a second chance or not? No, she isn't b/c she has you eating out of her hand.
she said she want to wait on that.
Well, there you go......I think that answered that.
I'm hoping that we can get that done this evening.
Don't hold your breath.
If she agrees to that, I think that is great progress.
I think
if she agreed, it would simply be to throw you off guard b/c she is not through with OM.
"Don't bother, its OK wont be necessary". She does not expect this,
Oh I think Ken's W expects to have everything around her house (especially Ken)
just exactly the way she expects it.
She wants a free pass Ken, but from the look of your thread here, you are gonna give it to her...
Ken. You get what you pay for and a marriage is no different... she has to EARN her way back in and you are holding the door open pleading with her to dance through...
If she gets IN the marriage again for free she will LEAVE it just as quickly... you have shown her she can COME and GO as she pleases... IF there's no price for leaving, she WILL DO it again.
This guy needs to learn how to play poker - bigtime.
She actually gave me permission to block the OM's phone which I promptly did on all the phones that I could, but we have two cell phones that do not have that feature, so I called the OM's wife to have her block all of our numbers and I think she did. Now the problem is, my wife heard part of the conversation and is mad about it saying I am controlling. Moreover, she still has him on her Facebook and can communicate with him by email. She doesn't seem to want to block those. She seems very upset with me right now.
Make a list of all the things you want blocked and present it all at once. Include a No Contact letter in that deal. Otherwise, she will just appease you to deceive you. I have been there. Ask for complete transparency, so you can learn to trust, not control.
It doesn't seem she is ready for this. Be strong. Nothing less will work.
I'll take upset over indifferent 7 days a week.
she will just appease you to deceive you
I agree very much with that statement.
So she gets upset at you, so what? You won't die. And, I've never known of a LBH who has died from being called
controlling (WAW's favorite name calling). I see it stepping up and taking charge of your family that is being infected with a sinful cancer that will eat away everything it touches if not stopped. God put you over your family as its protector, Ken, and that may appear that you are controlling.....so what?
It is a waste of time to block some of the means of contact and not "all" of them. That was the only reason she agreed to blocking that phone is b/c she knew she had other ways of reaching OM. That's is like her saying she doesn't think you are bright enough to figure that out! Another sign of disrespect.
You are wanting her to sweetly agree with all decisions that is made....but I don't think she is going to be 100% there. She will hold back on part b/c she is not over the A. That is why you must lay down the boundary (and if she calls it controlling...so be it)and she can either respect it or leave.
It's been about a week since I blocked the phones and I don't think she's communicated with the OM for about a week even by email. She still doesn't seem very interested in my affection though. I tried to hold her hand Saturday evening and she pulled her hand away. We met a lady at a church potluck that has been divorced and was sitting next to her ex-husband and two teenage kids in the potluck. Later my wife said something like, "See, that's how it's supposed to be done."
This morning I was on my way to work and my wife called me on my cell phone asking me to return because she was sick, so I returned home and also went to get her some medicine. So today I am home and she is laying in bed sick.
Even if she ends the A, she will not be ready for physical touch for quite some time. You have to stop trying to do that. She is still thinking about leaving b/c of her finding "examples" to point out to you at the potluck.
First step is her ending the A once and for all. Then she will have to go through the grieving process, and then she will have to get the right mind set before she will be interested in any kind of physical touching.
Thanks Sandi, I'm just excited that she may be ending the affair and putting us on the right track. I understand and appreciate what you are saying about her going through a grieving process and I am willing to suffer through it. I have to keep that in mind when she rejects my affection. Is this a good time to start trying to give her romantic gestures like flowers or cooking for her, etc. or should I wait on stuff like that? (I have a feeling that flowers may still be rejected.)
Is this a good time to start trying to give her romantic gestures like flowers or cooking for her, etc. or should I wait on stuff like that? (I have a feeling that flowers may still be rejected.)
No, do not do any of that b/c you will need to continue to hold back from any romantic gestures of any kind until she is completely over the OM. You saw how she rejected holding hands with you (which I think is a romantic gesture) and she will reject any other pursuing action. I promise you it will backfire if you try it.
Ken do you know what PURSUIT MEANS?
Back to square 1 again. I thought we were back on the right track, but after about a week and a half since I blocked the phones (except for the cell phones which the OM's wife blocked because I couldn't) my daughter told me that my wife was talking on her cell phone with the OM again, so apparently the OM unblocked the phone. Very frustrating!
Who is paying for her cell phone bill?
Note : you can buy a cell phone device that will kill reception in range of the device.. you can get one of these for about 100$ I think?
She is working now and paying for her cell phone bill.
Then you need to come up with some stern consequences and confront her... with a LOT more consequences... show her you won't let her push you around.
Infidelity does NOT end quickly.. it dies a slow ugly death usually... it ends, starts again, ends, starts again...
My wife fell off the wagon about a half dozen times before it was finally over...
I agree with Sandi and Allen...and can also attest to the slow ugly death of an A and it's MANY lives...
watch the pursuit, and start w. the A first...confront and maintain boundaries/consequences...
Update: My wife has a prepaid cell phone and apparently used up her minutes with the OM two days ago (after charging it up with $25 only nine days ago). I confronted her about it yesterday and she says she doesn't plan to communicate with him more. She deleted him from her Facebook account and agreed to go with me to meet with the Pastor and his wife (who is a counselor). So we went and she spilled out her old complaints about me all over again and said she was never really in love with me and made a mistake marrying me and doesn't see how it can work. They tried to persuade her to give it one more try, to which she replied, "I tried for 12 years!" And they responded, "Yea, but Ken wasn't on board." It seems that they may have actually gotten through to her though, because this morning she made a nice breakfast and then deactivated her Facebook account. She still doesn't feel like being affectionate, but I'm hoping that will come with time.
Wow Ken, your wife is having an affair.. you honestly expect her to show you physical affection right now?
Sorry Ken, but that's almost selfish of you...
I know your wife cheated and it hurts a lot, but you are supposed to be setting an example of adulthood. I had to wait a VERY LONG TIME before I saw a postage stamp of a smile from my wife after her affair...
You can't honestly expect her to be affectionate when she just talked to him two days ago... It's blatant pursuit on your part.
From what I have read on this forum physical affection from a female WS in an affair is the LAST thing to return to the marriage... and it SHOULD be the last thing. It's a great test of YOUR maturity to have to wait...
Don't expect anything soon.. and if it does happen I would recommend refusing it anyways... MWD says much the same in her DR book too... not to rush reconciliation and to TAKE it SLOW
OK thanks for that advice, Allen.
A question: I bought a couple of books - one is called "His Needs, Her Needs" and the other is called "The Case Against Divorce". What are your thoughts on whether or not I should try to share them with my wife at this point? Up until now, she has been quite resistant to anything like that, but I thought maybe since she seems to be trying to work on the marriage a bit, maybe I should try introducing stuff like that again.
Ken, I believe you would not get the response you're looking for...I would have the books laying out somewhere and that is it...especially if she has recently spoken w/ OM...
Her definitions are different than yours right now.
WS- "working on the M" = hang out and see if SP pisses me off
Nah, maybe not that bad, but you see my point...forgive me this is just a drive by, I'll read the last few pages and try to make more of a contribution...
This is what you said happened just yesterday:
So we went and she spilled out her old complaints about me all over again and said she was never really in love with me and made a mistake marrying me and doesn't see how it can work.
Today you say this:
Up until now, she has been quite resistant to anything like that, but I thought maybe since she seems to be trying to work on the marriage a bit, maybe I should try introducing stuff like that again.
May I ask how, where, or why do you get the impression she might be working on the marriage??? B/c she cooked a nice breakfast?
If you go back to your old thread in the WA forum, you will see where everything you are doing now is a repeat of what you did then. It didn't work then, so why are you doing it again?
Also, you said that she is still not ready for affection. You would not know that unless you tried it. I have told you to stop pursuing her with the physical touch.....but you keep doing it! Why do you persist in doing what doesn't work?
She fixes one nice meal.....just
one meal and you think she is
working at the marriage! That is why a lot of WAW's treat their H's cold, b/c he will jump at the tinest positive sign and think everything is just dandy....and it's not even begun yet.
I know I sound like I'm trying to drag you down, but that is not my goal. I am trying to help you see the way it is with her.
I don't think she is ready to read books or anything else, at this point. What you don't seem to understand is that she has to take things a step at a time. The first step for her is to detach herself from the OM. Do you believe that she can tell the OM good-bye one minute and be on track with you the next? Maybe you do, but that is not realistic and it is not how women in EA's operate.
She fixes one nice meal.....just one meal and you think she is working at the marriage! That is why a lot of WAW's treat their H's cold, b/c he will jump at the tinest positive sign and think everything is just dandy....and it's not even begun yet.
Word.Puppy
Ken. How long did you two date before you got married?
Expect it to take THAT LONG for her to REALLY want to work on this marriage. She can play you all she wants, but her commitment is with OM for months and months... and she sees him regularly still yes?
If it took you one year to get from first meeting to marriage, expect it to take a year before she wants to think about you as a husband again.
She may play and leave you with false impressions, and you WILL fall for them, but her head is with OM for the next 12 months or so...
We dated for about a year before we got married. The EA has gone on since July of 2009 (about 10 months now).
My wife vacillates between wanting a divorce and wanting to stay with me for the sake of the kids and because of her convictions about what is right in God's eyes. She is very pessimistic about whether she can fall in love with me. She says she is not attracted to my personality.
I saw that the OM was trying to call two days ago, so I called him back to see what he wanted since I thought he was on board with leaving us alone. He said he was having his 7 year old son call to ask to talk to my 7 year old daughter. I asked him to stop doing that because it wasn't helping our situation. He seemed to agree and understand.
But yesterday, to my amazement, my wife talked to the OM by cell phone for an hour or two. She can't use our home phones for that because I have his number blocked. She just recharged her prepaid cell phone two days ago with $25 and is already down to $9. I'm hoping that when she sees how much money it is costing her, she'll stop talking to him by phone.
All this going back and forth is driving me crazy!
Your wife has been disrespectful for months. Maybe you should put her out of the house. I don't see what real consequences she has suffered. She's put you in the "bad dad" role and is acting like a teenager. You don't deserve to be cast into that role and then resented for it. You have proof yet again. Put her out for a month.
Ken. People in affairs will run up hundreds of dollars of charges and not bat an eye over it... Don't think for a second the cost of the call is going to make her stop.. that is delusional on your part.
She is going to keep going back and forth until
1. There are enough consequences that it isn't worth contacting him anymore. (loss of home, loss of kids, public embarassment, etc)
AND
2. You appear to her to worth enough to explore reconcilliation
Don't think for a second in one day or even a week your wife is going to want to be with you.. it takes weeks and months to recover from this sort of thing.
I thought he was on board with leaving us alone.
Do you remember in your old thread that I told you OM was your enemy? Well, he still is, Ken. He lied to you and he is not on board to help your M work.
He said he was having his 7 year old son call to ask to talk to my 7 year old daughter
This gives it away, right there. He lied about the phone call.
I thought he was on board with leaving us alone.
Do you remember in your old thread that I told you OM was your enemy? Well, he still is, Ken. He lied to you and he is not on board to help your M work.
Yep. And I told you the exact same thing, Ken.
Puppy
Ken,
YOU are making their A oh so romantic!! YOU, not them, are making this a Romeo/Juliet thing! Every time you confront one of them about contact, without consequences, you are the DAD that is controlling a teenager. This is PUSHING them together.
So what can you do?
Option 1: Be the better option. She will see her A as deficient and give it up. You must ignore the A and focus on you and your M WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS. There are dangers here...Her thinking you are OK with her behavior, the A goes on indefinately, you become a complete mess.......
Option 2: Draw a boundary line. Me or Him. Me = M, NC w/ OM, COMPLETE transparency or she leaves.
Option 3: Both of the above. Eventually, "dad" will become to difficult to deal with and she will leave, for him, for anyone anywhere.
Yes, throwing her out will throw them together. This will make them see reality, eventually. But without you constantly pushing them together, they will probably lose interest. At this point, everything you are doing is pushing them together. YOu are reinforcing whatever justifications she has created about you and your M.
This is so painful to watch, I can't imagine how difficult it is for you. Please, please please, let go of the outcome. You cannot make her end it. You can make her want to end it, by stating a boundary and standing by it.
So, Mr Capulet, what do you really want?? A W that want to be with you or a W that runs from you?
Thanks, WhatNow, for spelling it out for me like that. I'm starting to get it. It seems that Option 2 is heavily promoted here, but I'm scared to death of sending her away with the possibility of her not coming back (which is what happened to her sister a few months ago in a similar situation), so I guess right now, I'm leaning towards Option 1.
This is a very difficult one to pull off. Especially given all you have already done.
You have to commit to:
No talk about her A or your M or even you at all.
You CANNOT CONFRONT HER ABOUT OM, or any of her behavior.
Don't tell her what you are doing!
There is a ton more In DB/DR. YOu have to commit to it because it is very painful to watch.
I am afraid that the only thing this will bring about is damage to your feelings for her, at this point in these goings on. Option 2 is promoted here b/c it is the only way to save yourself and your feelings and possibly your marriage. It took me 2 months of darkness to be able to communicate w/WH at all while maintaining control of my emotions and mouth.
Read DR again. Look at your own distorted thinking patterns. Stop arguing with what is. I know this is bossy of me. I was where you are a year ago. It takes TIME. While you are being "Mr. Wonderful" and Plan Aing her, make a plan to throw her out.
I know it is scary. Sending her away is far better than pushing her away. She definately won't come back then. Send her away with a path back and she might follow it. It is the quicker way to resolve this. Otherwise you are trying to chain her to the hot water heater! Or trying to teach a cat to bark (thanks Byron Katie)!
Work on yourself. Don't you hate hearing that! I did. I liked myself. BUT, I have a big issue with setting boundaries. So that is what I am working on.
I had a boyfriend who did the things you have been doing. I was attached to him but after a year of his pursuing, I finally couldn't take it anymore and left. Even tho I still had feelings for him, his pursual began to feel abusive!
Have you read DR? Have you read Surviving an affair (Harley)?
EVERY pro marriage site says STOP PURSUING! If you do, given time, odds are you will become the pursued.
Thanks, WhatNow, for spelling it out for me like that. I'm starting to get it. It seems that Option 2 is heavily promoted here, but I'm scared to death of sending her away with the possibility of her not coming back (which is what happened to her sister a few months ago in a similar situation), so I guess right now, I'm leaning towards Option 1.
Option 1 won't work, especially if it doesn't represent a "180" for you (and it doesn't).
Puppy
"Option 1 won't work, especially if it doesn't represent a "180" for you (and it doesn't)."
Yes, Puppy. That is what my above rant was trying to say. But Ken is obviously not convinced and seems to insist on chasing her away. He will come to the realization in his own time, but it may not be in time to save his M.
OK so then here is my question. Can Option 1 work if I can get my wife to commit to NC with the OM?
In my experience, Option 1 won't GET her to commit to that -- that's our point.
Us humans are path-of-least-resistance creatures. Why would someone give up the romance, mystery and adulation of an affair, if her husband is busy being romantic, doting and adoring??
Puppy
And Option 1 can't be managed over long or you will get VERY ILL. It isn't an option for the faint of heart.. its VERY PAINFUL and requires a LOT OF SELF CONTROL.. which it doens't read like you have right now... you can't stop pursuing her no matter how many people on this forum tell you to stop it...
I honestly don't know if you have what it takes to pull off Option 1 Ken... I didn't... I just got very ill and the affair got physical... and ill people aren't more attractive...
Well my wife has just run out of cell phone minutes again (after recharging her account only about 3 days ago) and she hates to waste money, so I guess I'll wait and see what she does in the next few days (whether she recharges it again and talks with the OM). She closed out her FB account a few days ago and agreed to go with me to meet with a counselor a few days ago. So I'm hoping that she will stop communicating with him now.
By the way, I so so much appreciate you guys (Allen, Sandi, WhatNow, PuppDogTails, Jasper and others) devotion to helping people like me who are in this situation. I really want to learn how to handle this situation in the right way, but I must admit I have a hard time grasping the thought that sending her away is going to help our marriage rather than separate us for good. So Option 1 really appeals to me if I can somehow make it work.
Under what circumstances will Option 1 actually work?
Well my wife has just run out of cell phone minutes again (after recharging her account only about 3 days ago) and she hates to waste money, so I guess I'll wait and see what she does in the next few days (whether she recharges it again and talks with the OM). She closed out her FB account a few days ago and agreed to go with me to meet with a counselor a few days ago. So I'm hoping that she will stop communicating with him now.
"Hoping" isn't a plan, Ken.
Puppy
Under what circumstances will Option 1 actually work?
OK, I'll bite, although I can tell that you're only asking the same question, in different ways, until someone gives you the answer you want to hear.
Option 1 CAN work, although I can count on one hand how many times I've seen it work on these site, among the thousands of affairs I've studied over the past few years.
The people I've seen pull it off have these attributes:
- they are typically FEMALE.
- They are usually people of faith, who have a STRONG conviction to "stand" for their marriage.
- They learn the art of becoming "lovingly detached," and MASTER it.
- They GAL like crazy.
- They protect themselves legally and financially.
- They learn to lay out -- and ENFORCE -- strong boundaries of personal integrity.
- They have the patience, faith and intestinal fortitude to wait it out for the 6-36 months that such an approach typically takes.
Personally, I don't think you fit the profile, Ken. Option 2 is your best bet, in my strong opinion. But then again, I'm sure you'll do what you want to do, so . . .
Puppy
There is never a clear cut "Option 1" or "Option 2" etc.
It's always something in-between. Maybe the first thing you need to do is not "think" communication has stopped between OM and your W. Your W should be completely transparent in her actions. She needs to tell you who she's calling, let you check her phone records, stuff like that. She has to have YOUR trust. Not the other way around.
IMHO, "Option 1" only works BEFORE there is OM in the picture.
In your position, Ken, I would make a statement something like: Your contact with OM is very painful for me and is destroying the loving feelings I have for you. Then shut up about A and M.
I would Plan A for 2-3 weeks to leave her with a positive impression of you and your M and then boot her if she was still in contact w/OM. Handing her a letter reiterating your above statement: "Your contact with OM is so painful, I cannot tolerate it any longer. You must leave. I do not wish to have any contact with YOU, until youhave ended contact with him permanently, forever, and are willing to be voluntarily transparent with me to earn my trust in you again."
IDK something like that. Allen and puppy are really good at statements. I tend to rattle on and you want it concise.
Please guys! Stop quoting my terms option 1 & 2! I was attempting to be somewhat facetious since #1 and 3 really are not "options".
Ken, She may be using this time and the MC visit to justify why she must leave you! "See, world, I tried everything to save my marriage."
You must do a 180 now. Be a rock, a stable secure place for her to land. And rocks don't DO anything. They are just there, solid. You are all over the place at the moment. Get control of yourself and your emotions.
Yes, I know all of this sounds counter-intuitive.
Are you reading and re-reading?
There is a list of 180's around here somewhere...Print it out, read it once an hour...I'm not kidding! I think you can save your M, but you have to back off! You have to set a boundary, not just threaten one.
Thanks WhatNow, for giving me sort of a plan that I can follow.
And thanks Puppy, for elaborating on this:
Option 1 CAN work, although I can count on one hand how many times I've seen it work on these site, among the thousands of affairs I've studied over the past few years.
This is what I really needed to see, some kind of statistics. I hope you are not exaggerating much, because if it is true what you're saying, I'm about to get on board.
But among the ones who do send the wife packing under my similar circumstances, what percentage return and how long do they wait? (ballpark figures, at least)
(I'd love to see any estimates from anybody that has experience here and could give me some sort of estimate.)
And if she does commit to NC with the OM (my primary goal for now), I gather that there won't be the need to send her away since obviously she is giving me something to work with, right?
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Option 1 CAN work, although I can count on one hand how many times I've seen it work on these site, among the thousands of affairs I've studied over the past few years.
This is what I really needed to see, some kind of statistics. I hope you are not exaggerating much, because if it is true what you're saying, I'm about to get on board.
This reminds me of that movie "Dumb and Dumber" when the woman tells the man there is maybe one out of a million chances, and he says, "So there
is a chance".
Ken. I tried Option 1 for over a YEAR and the EA just got physical instead... worse essenstially.
Once I started option 2 the OM was gone inside of three months.
So, you want to go with something that takes 12+ months to do instead of the one that takes under 3?
AND using Option 1 she is very likely to sleep with him since it takes that much longer.
Option 1 takes a LOT LONGER.. and because of that you put your marraige at much more SERIOUS RISK
Ken,
YOU are making their A oh so romantic!! YOU, not them, are making this a Romeo/Juliet thing! Every time you confront one of them about contact, without consequences, you are the DAD that is controlling a teenager. This is PUSHING them together.
So what can you do?
Option 1: Be the better option. She will see her A as deficient and give it up. You must ignore the A and focus on you and your M WITHOUT EXPECTATIONS. There are dangers here...Her thinking you are OK with her behavior, the A goes on indefinately, you become a complete mess.......
Option 2: Draw a boundary line. Me or Him. Me = M, NC w/ OM, COMPLETE transparency or she leaves.
Option 3: Both of the above. Eventually, "dad" will become to difficult to deal with and she will leave, for him, for anyone anywhere.
Yes, throwing her out will throw them together. This will make them see reality, eventually. But without you constantly pushing them together, they will probably lose interest. At this point, everything you are doing is pushing them together. YOu are reinforcing whatever justifications she has created about you and your M.
This is so painful to watch, I can't imagine how difficult it is for you. Please, please please, let go of the outcome. You cannot make her end it. You can make her want to end it, by stating a boundary and standing by it.
So, Mr Capulet, what do you really want?? A W that want to be with you or a W that runs from you?
What positives do you see in Option 1?
I was being sarcastic in even suggesting it b/c:
It will also probably add to her guilt, which will also encourage her to leave.
You haven't been able to stop pursuing so far.
Her only consequences for ignoring NC have been more whining from you.
Option 2:
She will miss your family and begin to want it rather than have it represent something to get away from.
You have to change your MO!
Have you read mb28's thread? The same week she changed her MO, and stopped pursuing, her H has started to move in her direction. This is where your best chances are...stop pursuing, Take a stand. She is not running yet, all you have to do is make her turn around. The only way to do that is to enforce your stand against OM, and YOU turn the other way. She will then turn to see why you are not pursuing her.
britt54's threads would be another great place to look.
Pearharbor, too.
Goodness, you guys are full of SO much good infor!! Ken, I am not where you are, thank goodness, but their advice is making me rethink some of my own tactics with a bratty, sulky H that can't seem to make up his mind if he wants his W and S or ?? Not sure what he wants (he is not involved in anything that I know of though.)
I was here 6 years ago and got the ILYNIL speach. DB'd like crazy, got my marriage back but I became VERY WIMPY. UGh!! It is NOT ATTRACTIVE!!!
Fast forward 6 years to the present, and my H has become a monster--angry, moody, verbally abusive, no sex, very controlling. I KNOW he has no respect for me--I have given into him over and over and over. His LL is Acts of Service and I have probably gone overboard--the guy doesn't do anything around the house, doesn't make a single meal. How in the HELL did I get to be this woman!?!
So I have gone BACK to GAL which is a 180 from my first 180 It feels SO WRONG and yet...I know it's the right thing to do. And Allen, Puppy, the rest--you are SO good at boundaries--is there hope for me??? (I USED to be so independent!!) I have tried to set boundaries, but I think I'm coming across as "controlling". There are just those subtle differences....any good sites you know of to help a person learn?
Ken, I hope I have gotten across to you that WIMPS are UNATTRACTIVE. Strngth is ALWAYS admired. Courage is the way to go. You have so much good support here--I encourage you to really take to heart the advice given!
Puppy, the rest--you are SO good at boundaries--is there hope for me??? (I USED to be so independent!!) I have tried to set boundaries, but I think I'm coming across as "controlling". There are just those subtle differences....any good sites you know of to help a person learn?
Laura, I'll take a peek at your thread, so as not to further hijack here, but I do think Allen has written some very good and thought-provoking posts recently about the whole "controlling" thing. I think that word gets thrown around (much as "racist," or "homophobe" do sometimes) as a way to just instantly stifle discussion.
Allen's view is, the opposite of "controlling" is "OUT-of-control," and when did that exactly become a GOOD thing???
Puppy
How often do you guys see a wife who is emotionally attached to an OM for months (like mine) suddenly turn around and have NC with the OM and restore the marriage? Does it happen?
Ken,
Why do you keep asking us "How often does THIS happen," or "What are the odds of THAT happening?" What are you going to do with the answers anyway?
The only questions you should be asking yourself are:
1) Do I love this woman? Do I want to fight for my marriage? Is she a woman of character, temporarily making bad decisions, or is this someone that I don't think it's healthy for me to be married to?
2) What is the BEST approach I can take to fight for my marriage, if that's what I choose to do?
We can't give you percentages and statistics -- we're lay people, on an internet bulletin board. All we can do is share with you what we've seen work, in our own sitches and on the sitches on this forum.
Puppy
Thanks WhatNow, for giving me sort of a plan that I can follow.
I was so afraid you would jump on that.....and sure enough you did. I did not see it as being sarcastic and I did not think you would either. It was as if it was giving you "permission" to be a weak sissy who just looks the other way while his wife and OM screw around. Have you forgotten how he would come into your home to pursue your W?
Ken, at this stage of the stitch, that option is sure to fail. The reason is b/c of the horrible disrespect your W has thrown in your face. If you chose this option "now" then how do you think she could ever respect you again? The
respect is the critical issue right now. All you are thinking about is the OM, but the respect needs to come first and I don't see that happening with option 1......not after all this time. She would laugh at you for trying to put those traits into place. She would see it as you being weak. Beside, I gave you examplesof option 1 at thebeginning of your other thread, but that didn't pan out too well.
This womanneeds to see a strong leader in you.
Ken,
Please listen to the vets. I know it is hard and I have the sitch to prove it. My W just turned her EA into a PA recently and I was being a lot like you. Because of her decision I let her know that I am done and have been in NC for over a week. I have not heard anything from her in that time and maybe I wont but at least I am standing up for me and not taking any of her disrespect by hanging around as the "gay boyfriend" as Puppy puts it. Sandi wrote a great piece on Respect in my thread and I suggest that you check it out.
Detaching and moving on is the hardest thing to do but your W is still in an EA and not a PA. Let her know that you mean business and be ready to let go and really stick with it. You can do this Ken!
Another Ken
Damnedstraight, Ken!
Puppy
This is the plan I was going to try to follow:
In your position, Ken, I would make a statement something like: Your contact with OM is very painful for me and is destroying the loving feelings I have for you. Then shut up about A and M.
I would Plan A for 2-3 weeks to leave her with a positive impression of you and your M and then boot her if she was still in contact w/OM. Handing her a letter reiterating your above statement: "Your contact with OM is so painful, I cannot tolerate it any longer. You must leave. I do not wish to have any contact with YOU, until youhave ended contact with him permanently, forever, and are willing to be voluntarily transparent with me to earn my trust in you again."
How does it sound to you Sandi? Right before bed, I told her, "Your contact with [OM] is very painful for me and is destroying the loving feelings I have for you." She didn't say anything - we just both went to sleep.
I guess I can't expect to see statistics on here, but I appreciate the examples of sitch's that have been turned around. The recent threads referred to me were men that came back. Good reading, but can someone point me to a thread or two of sitch's like mine with a wife who came back or decided to stay? I'd like to read up on what they did to facilitate that.
Allen, I know your sitch is a great example, although I'd really like to avoid her leaving if that is possible. I still would like to read about your case too if it is on here - how would I find it?
Looks like I may have to change my plan. I noticed today that my wife recharged her cell phone with $50 and was on the phone with the OM again today. So I asked her if she wouldn't mind if I block his number on her cell phone like I did on our other phones (I would just do it, but I guess I need her pin #). She said she doesn't want to stop communicating with him and she's tired of me controlling her. I said, "It's not about being controlling. When you talk with him, it causes me pain. An affair is an addiction. I'm trying to help you." She said, "I don't need your help. I'm willing to cook for you and clean for you, but I'm not having sex with you." I said, "Well then, we need to move on. I married you to be my wife. Do you have a place to go?" She said, "No." I said, "Maybe this weekend, we can find you a place." She said, "OK."
Please help! I'm trying now to follow the advice from here. Should I just back off for a couple of weeks and see what happens or should I help her out the door now?
Help her out the door. She's addicted, she needs help, and she's dragging you down with her.
If/when she decides to get some help, and wants to come back fully to the marriage, you can then decide how you'd like to deal with it.
Puppy
I honeslty wouldn't HELP her, I would just tell her she's not welcome there anymore...
If YOU PACK or get involved in any way she will just tell everyone that you THREW her out.
If you confront her and she refuses to end her affair... then SHE is choosing to leave the home...
Its a VERY important line you need to draw here Ken.. SHE needs to accept the choice of leaving or ending her affair...
BY refusing to stop calling him, she is making her choice.. YOU need to accept that and ensure she exits the home at this point.
First thing you do Ken is lock up the finances.. she WILL take advantage of them if you make her available to them.
Second... start packing up her things... Tell her she is making her choice and if she doens't want to be part of this home anymore then she must LEAVE.
Ken, I honeslty don't think it will go that far.. you have kids right? I can't see it going that far... she just needs to start seeing you dismantle the home and she worrying over finances and being apart from her children.. I think that shock will likely get her to commit to a No Contact agreement with full transparency.
WARNING : Do NOT pursue this without a Family Therapist negotiating. Make sure that you don't just take her back because she yet promises AGAIN not to call him... if you take her back blanket like that she will KNOW you were BLUFFING...
You need to SHOW her you are SERIOUS.. I think if you do show her you are serious by packing up the home and doing everything to oust HER from the home and away from her kids she will agree to see a FT and commit to a No Contact agreement with the Therapist...
I do NOT reccomend you try to negotiate that one - on - one with her... she has to commit to a THERAPIST too... YOU aren't enough.. she is remorseless about this Ken... do not take her back wtihout her commiting to a FT as well
I would have a serious talk with his guy IN PUBLIC yet AGAIN
Thanks so much Allen and Puppy.
Allen, I have a question. You say:
I honeslty wouldn't HELP her, I would just tell her she's not welcome there anymore...
If YOU PACK or get involved in any way she will just tell everyone that you THREW her out.
Then you said:
Second... start packing up her things...
Is this a contradiction? I know you don't mean it to be. So do I or don't I help her pack?
We do have kids...we have two cute little girls. I want to do this right. Thank you for your suggestions about finances and the FT. I don't know if I can get her to go to a FT at this point, but I can ask her. I agree with you that she is making her choice. I really feel like I can't live like this anymore. I am so disappointed in the way things are turning out, but I don't know what else to do at this point.
Do I ask her to find herself an apartment? I'm guessing the answer is 'yes'. I probably should wait till a business day so I can fix my bank account first.
Don't ask her for ANYTHING other than get out! She has told you she has no intention of ending it w/OM!
Get her luggage out. Bring home some boxes, and hand her a newspaper.
NO MORE TALK! she knows you want her to choose! If you keep banging your gums she will run. Stop giving her a drama fix!
If you can control your mouth, I think you will be successful.
If she says she wants to stay, That is when you bring up a FT.
BTW, do you see what happened? You made your statement last night. Instead of shutting up about A & M, you got on her about the phone. You pursued. You forced her away. She needs time to process these things.
Ken, I apologize for being so rough. I feel like I am dealing with my little brother here with you. (and puppy has already pointed out that I am being mean today...yikes)
It is also personal for me. I wish someone would have handed me duct tape for my mouth a while back. I would not be where I am now. Stop feeding the romance! she sees you as the bad guy standing in the way of her happiness, so stop giving her that.
Ken,
I guess don't say nothing. She does seem to be rebelling, there is not much you can say or do, positive or negative it will push her to OM.
You can lay back and break up the affair though. We've all been in this position and it sucks, its demasculating. You know the OM is feeling very manly having his way with YOUR wife.
Each time incrimentally helping him out, and hurting you.
The wife see's it as this is what she wants to do.
What to do if this is the situation? The thing that appears to have been working is "bursting the affair".
Getting your wife back at this stage is not going to be easy at all, and you like the rest of us see it happens very quickly.
You can be as loving and dedicated as you want, and they will cheat you. Throw you away.
Ken, maybe this excerpt will help. It is from
midlife crisis marriage advocate com.
Because as a pursuer you want to share your feelings and want others to share their feelings in reciprocation. You believe in a direct approach to your relationship problems and are impatient to achieve it. Pursuers are thus motivated to initiate change and it may seem to you (and to others) that you are the only person making an effort to work on your marriage--or other relationships. Distancers are avoiders and are motivated toward change only when the pursuer changes the dynamics--they can become or seem like Cake-eaters. As a Pursuer you feel responsible and thus you make it all about you, or it’s all yours to solve. Pursuers may seem controlling and manipulative to Distancers.
"Pursuers initiate action to realize change, whereas Distancers are either content or complacent and lack the motivation to change. It is not that a Distancer would not like change, but as avoiders they would rather live with present difficult conditions than risk the difficulty of the process of change even when there is a high probability for positive improvement. They want the rewards without doing the work. And why not? As the Pursuer, you are already doing the work, so the Distancer doesn’t need to do anything. If you are pursuing your MLCer, you are not providing a motivation for her to change. This is a relationship dynamic that may not be present outside of the marital relationship.
To experienced Standers it may seem as though you do not believe their insight and advice regarding MLC in general or which of your actions will be most detrimental versus most beneficial. But if your natural tendency is pursuit, the problem is not one of disbelief or doubt. Pursuit is your habit, your comfort zone and an addiction. You don’t know how to not pursue. You have to relearn the fundamentals of the dance. Distancing is something you will learn through awareness of your behaviors and practice.
When trapped in the pursuit and distance dance you will proceed in the opposite direction from that which you desire. This will seem to you as though you are failing in your actions and your natural tendency may have been to do the same things, but with greater effort--pursue more. As you give more and more your MLCer feels as though you are pestering him and thus he gives less and less in return effort which makes you feel even more responsible for saving your relationship. Your pursuit reinforces his belief that you and the marriage are the problem and he is not. While you pursue, he will thus lack motivation to look internally for causes and resolutions to his unhappiness and problems; your pursuit enables him to remain in denial."
This is my plan for this morning.
I'm going to get out some luggage for my wife. I'm also going to get out my three year old's Princess soccer ball that she ran over the day after I bought it and say, "Here you can pack this too if you want. This represents what you are doing to your whole family."
How does that sound?
Don't ask her for ANYTHING other than get out!
Get her luggage out. Bring home some boxes, and hand her a newspaper.
NO MORE TALK! she knows you want her to choose! If you keep banging your gums she will run. Stop giving her a drama fix!
If you can control your mouth, I think you will be successful.
Hi Ken, ya, I would go wtih WhatNow here... the important point is to make it clear when you do this that SHE is making a choice... and that you want her to make a commitment to her marriage... It has to be clear when she exists this is what SHE chose...
And yes, lock up your finances FIRST... don't boot her out while she can get at your bank account and credit cards!
I didn't get a chance to do my plan this morning. My wife knew that I was going to do something today because I told her last night that I'd find some luggage for her in the morning. So this morning, she got dressed up and left to go see the OM. They have been together for a couple of hours now. How should I respond when she gets home?
Good! Get the luggage out, put it in the hall.
SAY NOTHING! Do not respond at all. This will be a 180 for you.
Can you do it!?
Yes, the luggage is ready. I won't say anything. Thanks for the guidance.
Well, if she asks why it is out, you'll have to say something.
Say something about her choice. "You know I can't be married to you when you are having an A with another man. Since you are still in contact with him, It seems you have made a choice, and would need luggage to begin living with that choice."
I wouldn't discuss it with her unless she tells you she said good-bye to him today. If that is the case, say "Let's send him a confirmation letter of NC! and then I'll put the luggage away!"
Allen actually did this and it worked so he will have better input. I did what you are doing now and chased WH away. Say it once and let the silence speak for itself, otherwise you are giving her ammo to justify her leaving. Did ya read the thing on pursual? Replace MLCer with WS. (Although I suspect your W has some transition issues or she would have been gone awhile ago)
She came back, ignored the luggage, fixed lunch, and acted like nothing happened.
Thanks for giving me ideas for something to say. I may need them later today.
I believe you are correct about her having transition issues. I believe she is also having trouble making up her mind because she is somewhat convicted that what wants to do is wrong.
Yes, I did read your excerpt on pursual (thanks for that) - and I definitely can relate to that and say that I have been the pursuer, (trying to persuade her, hold her hand and everything) and she has been the distancer. Now that I understand my problem better, maybe I can deal with the situation better.
I believe you are correct about her having transition issues. I believe she is also having trouble making up her mind because she is somewhat convicted that what wants to do is wrong.
That's "mind-reading," Ken. It's just as likely that she's having trouble making up her mind simply because she doesn't HAVE to, and that she perceives herself to have the best of both worlds.
Puppy
Ken,
You have to "burst the affair", you may have to beat that guys butt.
Read this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1989879She will hold onto the "best of both worlds" as long as she can get away with it. Life can kick her ass or you help it along, that may make her realize she really is playing with a good situation she has with you.
It's just as likely that she's having trouble making up her mind simply because she doesn't HAVE to, and that she perceives herself to have the best of both worlds.
Puppy
That about sums up my sitch pretty well. This last few days has been an abbreviated version or repetition of my whole dilemma since last July.
1) I confront her with a boundary.
2) She responds by running to the OM.
3) She comes back and acts like nothing happened and yet refuses to end her contact with the OM.
What can I say or do?
It's just as likely that she's having trouble making up her mind simply because she doesn't HAVE to, and that she perceives herself to have the best of both worlds.
Puppy
That about sums up my sitch pretty well. This last few days has been an abbreviated version or repetition of my whole dilemma since last July.
1) I confront her with a boundary.
2) She responds by running to the OM.
3) She comes back and acts like nothing happened and yet refuses to end her contact with the OM.
What can I say or do?
It's just as likely that she's having trouble making up her mind simply because she doesn't HAVE to, and that she perceives herself to have the best of both worlds.
Puppy
That about sums up my sitch pretty well. This last few days has been an abbreviated version or repetition of my whole dilemma since last July.
1) I confront her with a boundary.
2) She responds by running to the OM.
3) She comes back and acts like nothing happened and yet refuses to end her contact with the OM.
What can I say or do?
Ken,
you may intend the above, but here is what I perceive you have been doing:
1)You confront, pursue and throw a hissy fit.
2)She runs to OM.
3)When she returns, You confront, pursue, and throw a hissy fit, justifying for her a return to OM.
You must follow through. We are here for you.
Ken,
When you communicate these "boundaries" to her -- do they contain any
consequences for violating them?
Without consequences, you can't enforce. And a boundary unenforced isn't a boundary at all . . . it's more like a "gee-I-wish-you-wouldn't."
Puppy
OK I admit I have confronted, pursued, and thrown hissy fits when I try to set a boundary. But I'm doing better. When she got home today, I said nothing. I didn't even ask her where she went (although it's quite obvious).
I guess I'm not very good at setting boundaries. That's why I love it when you guys tell me exactly what I can say or do. I'm having a bit of trouble enforcing the boundary. Not exactly sure how to do that without her being able to say I THREW her out.
Ken I hear you on that. I asked W to leave and she wouldn't One boundary I stated was to remove her from credit card. Well man am I glad I did that (if you want to know why read my thread).
Is there anything beyond throwing her out?
OK I admit I have confronted, pursued, and thrown hissy fits when I try to set a boundary.
Does a cop throw a hissy fit when he issues you a citation, or does he just issue it?
Real men don't yell, scream, or "throw hissy fits" in order to set a boundary, Ken. Very calmly say "I will not live in an open marriage. It's incredibly disrespectful, and I value myself too much to tolerate it any longer. If you don't end it, immediately, then I will immediately begin to take measures to protect myself."
And make sure you're not PAYING for ANYTHING that she's using to carry on her affair -- cellphone, computer, internet, etc.
Puppy
What you can and should do is your best efforts to "affair burst". Its your best chance at getting the wife back, as she will have no boyfriend and will be stinging somewhat. She will have to reevaluate her position.
Thanks Puppy, you're absolutely right and I'm getting better at that. Thanks for the advice about not paying for things that support the affair.
And I totally agree, DaddyLongShanks, that I agree that I need to "affair burst" somehow before I can work on anything else. I am finding that advice in books too, as well as from learning the hard way.
I'd still love to read up on successful cases that are similar to mine with a wife that had an affair if anybody can refer me to some threads. Thanks in advance.
Ken5140,
Check my addition to this thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1989879&page=24I was a wayward in a previous situation approximately 10 years ago. Waywards really need to be stung, because part of their reality is you aren't going to go anywhere. The other part is you can't really boundary enforce because as a virtue of the action of cheating, if you try to shut down something they can just do it outside.
Female waywards are a bit different, but if you read my contribution - it may help you.
I think the affairs need to be bursted and anywhere where the WAW is on the edge in life needs to be bursted too.
I think the affairs need to be bursted and anywhere where the WAW is on the edge in life needs to be bursted too.
DLS,
Would you mind explaining bursting. I'm interested in exactly what you mean. I'm kinda slow on the uptake and still don't get it after reading the links you left above. :p
"Affair bursting" is breaking the affair. If the spouse has a boyfriend or girlfriend to run to, your not going to be effective and you have almost no chance of getting them back.
If the affair is bursted, they will have to reevaluate their position and their life.
"Affair bursting" is breaking the affair. If the spouse has a boyfriend or girlfriend to run to, your not going to be effective and you have almost no chance of getting them back.
If the affair is bursted, they will have to reevaluate their position and their life.
Right. Ok, how do you affair burst....Step 1, Step 2, and so on.
How's this for a consequence...
I could say to her, "You need to be done with the OM by the end of the week or I'm going to expose your affair to a ton of people, including your parents."
I'm almost to the point where I don't care if she asks me for a divorce. I just want to move on with my life. I just feel like it would be wrong for me to ask for a divorce.
Still waiting for examples of affairs that have been busted (with a WAW). I need assurance that I am not wasting my time.
ken5140,
Do not threaten her with the "affair bursting". The best thing you can do for yourself and your marriage is to do it. You have to calm your nerves and make sure you have enough conclusive information to present it to the places where you will present it. After having this choice forced on you ( having an OM in your life ), breaking the affair open is going to be empowering for you.
Officer In Need, gman, Allan A, and MrBond have all broken the affairs open, and each one of them had a spouse that no longer had a boyfriend to run to when she got mad. The spouses all came home and each of these men's relationships are in various states of repair.
Thanks so much for those examples. I've been reading this morning about MrBond's case. Man, he went through so much! That gave me a boost of confidence. If he can do it, I feel like I can too. My sitch is similar to his in many ways. I plan on reading about the other cases too. Some of these threads are so long! I think I can get some ideas on what works and what doesn't by doing that.
Waiting for assurance . . . reading . . . stalling.
Time for ACTION, Ken. You're losing your marriage by the day. Stop dithering.
Puppy
Still waiting for examples of affairs that have been busted (with a WAW). I need assurance that I am not wasting my time.
mine busted with WAW....now together and putting the past behind us with a TON of hard work.
Waiting for assurance . . . reading . . . stalling.
Time for ACTION, Ken. You're losing your marriage by the day. Stop dithering.
Puppy
there...now you can see it can be done, there are no assurances it will work but you have to try man. Time for action is NOW.
Gman
NEVER THREATEN to expose Ken.
Your wife will BEAT you TO IT and will paint YOU as a MONSTER...
NEVER SHOW YOUR CARDS... if you are prepared to expose to save your amrriage, just DO IT.
Addicted WS' do NOT back down to threats... they back down to ACTION... WORDS are feathers to them... they just fly away..
A THREAT is not a CONSEQUENCE Ken.
She cheats, you DO X... and she learns that if she cheats, X will follow.
If she LIES and you do Y, she learns that Y will follow...
Each time she PUSHES your LIMITS you SHOW her what the unpleasant result is...
Don't TALK, that won't stop her... ACTION STOPS AFFAIRS.. not threats... Those two are just laughing at you when you do that... They can SMELL your FEAR..
NO FEAR Ken... NO FEAR... just DO IT
OK so yesterday I had the luggage out...she just ignored it. What is my next step?
who cares is she says you threw her out? your response to friends and families is no, you told her she could move back in as soon as she ceased her affair. you are welcoming her home as soon as ceases her affair. she put herself out. you say that to people.
make her go. tell her what date she must go by. how about 3-5 days? seems more than reasonable. if she has a friend or parent to stay with, 1-2 days.
I can tell her, but she won't do it. I've tried that.
ken5140,
I'd expose her before I put her out. Putting her out would be several weeks after she's exposed. The exposure is to OM wife,who will hopefully wake him up from the hell she's going to put to him.
Definately don't threaten her on it.
Think your plan out and how she will react, and how you respond to it. Think ahead.
The OM's wife knows very well about this sitch now. Months ago, she had her head in the sand about it, but has been trying to DB like me for months now. She is using a program called Marriage Fitness. We occasionally talk about about the situation and strategies.
I could expose to more church members and more family members. I'm sure my wife would hit the ceiling. Her mother is ill and already reeling from my wife's sister's separation.
Ken5140,
The affair burst is planned like a mob hit on several important members.
I would probably give the wife the confidence and ammo she needs to do what she's going to do, and you then hit the others.
The wife will hit some on her side, you guys plan it together. I think it is done so its cheaper for the OM to let go. Either way if they leave you guys, your not holding weight for someone who doesn't want to be with you.
Just take your time and strategize.
This sounds interesting. How do I "give the wife the confidence and ammo to do what she's going to do"? Do you mean help her find a place to stay? Pardon my confusion. And how do I "hit the others"? (you mean exposure?) And how can I make this costly for the OM?
You and the other mans wife have to plan it out. Thats all I'm saying, the timing, etc. See she's going to do alot himself, and hopefully it will bring him back home. But who ever else you expose to, both of you need to be aware of the timing.
My church has a business meeting tonight and I think they're going to ask me to be an elder again, but I was thinking about saying in front of everybody something like, "It's really hard to focus when [OM] is having an affair with my wife." Is that a bad idea?
My wife is trying to be kind to me in the house, but I haven't touched her in over a week. She cooked a nice meal for me yesterday and has been doing a lot of cleaning. Should I confront her again about whether or not she is talking to the OM? If she is, should I try to persuade her to leave?
My church has a business meeting tonight and I think they're going to ask me to be an elder again, but I was thinking about saying in front of everybody something like, "It's really hard to focus when [OM] is having an affair with my wife." Is that a bad idea?
OK thanks. If it's a bad idea, I won't do it.
I'm not sure what's going on with my wife right now - if she is talking with the OM or not. Should I ask her? What do I do if she is still talking with him?
I'm not sure what's going on with my wife right now - if she is talking with the OM or not. Should I ask her? What do I do if she is still talking with him?
Asked and answered, dozens of times, by different folks and in different ways, upthread.
Puppy
I thought you were going to give it a week or two of DBing at home? Regardless, I know we agreed that repeatedly "asking" her was pursuing. Wait for confirmation and then enforce your boundary. NO pursuing. NO insecurity. You have an opportunity here to do a 180 on that! Use it!!!
NO R TALK. NO M TALK. NO A TALK. Get tape for your mouth if you must!!!
OK thanks. I'm going to give it a week or two with no pursuing, no R, M, or A talk and see what happens.
If it comes to the point where I need to enforce the boundary, I'm going to need a lot of help. I am very bad at that. All of my attempts to kick her out have been futile. Partly because I'm concerned about the legality of it and her being able to say that I THREW her out.
YOu are not throwing her out. You will ask her to CHOOSE. YOu, your family, your home, or her A w/ OM.
In other words,you are right back at square one where you were when you first came on board in the other thread. Everything that people, who are newer to this thread, has advised.....has been given you a long time ago. Weren't you told in the very beginning to stop pursuing and R talks? Now, you are saying you are going to give it a week or two and see what happens?
Let me suggest what I think probably happened when your W left to go see OM when you set her luggage out. She pressured OM and he wasn't ready so he sends her back home. You think since she has cleaned the house up and cook a meal or two that maybe you shouldn't approach her.
I just don't know what else to tell you, Ken. The same advice has been given over & over. Yet, you act as if it is the first time you've heard it. I guess I don't know how to reach you. Hopefully, some others will.
Ken,
YOu will finally "get it" when your W Has had enough of your pursual and throws YOU out. DUCT TAPE! it even comes in pretty colors!
The longer you "wait and see" Ken the more involved your W gets with OM.
THe SOONER you ACT, the better YOUR CHANCES. Do you know what BONDING is? The more time you give her to invest in HIM and to DETACH from YOU the more likley its giong to be that a divorce will happen and your wife will then take YEARS to figure out this fool is not going to help her long term.
Nip it in the bud and stop fooling around waiting... it just does DAMAGE to your MARRIAGE
Sandi, in the beginning, I wasn't confident that this was the best approach. I didn't really want to throw her out. But now I'm starting to see that it may be my only hope. I'm still hung up on how to enforce the boundary.
Allen, should I not wait the week or two? What do you recommend?
A quick question: I have been in the habit of kissing my wife on the forehead before I leave for work, but I stopped doing that a few days ago because I thought it could be considered pursuing. It is considered pursuing, am I right?
For the last time Ken, you arne't "throwing her out"
You are packing her things and telling her to make an commitment OR to leave the home.
If she LEAVES, SHE has LEFT, you didn't THROW her OUT.. she LEFT.. got it?
Regarding waiting :
Is there ANY REASON to think that in two weeks things will have gotten any better?
What do you have on the go that would suggest this is the case? From my reading you are not planning anything to be better, just hoping it will magically imporove.
Right now your wife isn't afraid of your position because there's no consequences... nothing different happens when she contacts him, so she's going to do it.
How do you plan on disciplining your children? Just wait and hope that they behave better in two weeks?
A quick question: I have been in the habit of kissing my wife on the forehead before I leave for work, but I stopped doing that a few days ago because I thought it could be considered pursuing. It is considered pursuing, am I right?
I don't know about "pursuing," but it
patronizing. Like putting a child to bed.
Blcccch!
Puppy
Is there ANY REASON to think that in two weeks things will have gotten any better?
What do you have on the go that would suggest this is the case?
I am not pursuing at all for a change during this time - that is something new.
NOw here's the problem about the consequence - I can say what you said, "Make a commitment or leave the home", but I know her and she will likely say, "You can't make me leave!" and then she will just stay. She has told me that before. And that is the one thing that I don't know how to deal with.
Have you spoken to a lawyer?
If her reply is "you can't make me leave" then her choice is "leave"
Find out your legal position first...
If I am understanding you correctly...If she does not CHOOSE to leave, I THEN need to THROW her out, as long as the law supports me.
The reason I ask is because my wife is very stubborn about staying, and I actually think it's going to come down to this.
Yup, then you may have to ask her to leave UNTIL she ends her affair. You will have to check with your lawyer first to find out your legal position. You may have to modify your consequences. I am outlining the standard one the hardliners on this forum dish out under these circumstances.
You make the same confrontation script that everyone else here does
1. This family will not tolerate infidelity in this home
2. Your infidelity is hurting me, you, and our children
3. I love you want want to save our marriage
4. You are not welcome here with this family until you end your affair
Note : This is NOT throwing her out... you are forcing her to respect your home... STOP saying "throw her out" That is NOT what's going on here... SHE thinks that way...
Think of it as a time-out for a child... YOU won't call it throwing your child out, but THEY might...
STOP saying you are throwing her out.. you are commanding RESPECT for yourself and your family... that's all...
The difference here Ken is that your wife is welcome back at ANY TIME as long as an honest commitment to the marriage is offered and full transparency of her actions and communications until YOU are satisfied that the affair is OVER.
It's not a throw out, its a TIME OUT.
The reason I ask is because my wife is very stubborn about staying, and I actually think it's going to come down to this.
If she is giong to push you THIS HARD, you need to talk to a lawyer to find out how hard you can legally push back...
Remember that your WIFE is the one sending you the lawyer here... SHE is making things this difficult... NOT great Mom material now is she?
OK Allen. Thanks for that. It looks like my next step is to talk to a lawyer. Yes, my wife is definitely making this difficult. I just want to bring closure to this mess one way or another now.
I was just thinking, someone should make a DB flowchart.
I think it would go something like this:
Spouse asks for divorce.
STEP 1: Is an affair involved?
no --> do 180's (no pursuing, GAL, etc.)
yes --> Ask spouse to commit to NC with the OP.
STEP 2: Do they agree to NC with the OP?
yes --> continue 180's (no pursuing, GAL, etc.)
no --> Ask spouse to leave.
STEP 3: Do they leave?
yes --> limit contact --> Then go to STEP 1.
no --> seek lawyer for rights about having spouse leave, have spouse leave, then go to STEP 1.
What do you think? Do I have this right?
NOt always, in some cases it could be the LBS that leaves.. I have reccomended that in some cases too.
It would help I suppose, you are right... The thing is Ken there are some people on this forum who are anti-hardline
There is no official process to handle these things. There are a series of overlapping processes that each of us are implicitly advocating... and they are sometimes in conflict.
To complicate the overlapping processes, we have an infinite number of scenarios we are applying these processes to...
It would be a terribly convoluted flowchart if we included everything.
Maybe a hardliner flowchart and a softliner flowchart or something...
It definitely might help...
Just bear in mind there aer some posters here who do NOT advocate following a cookie-cutter type recipie for this delicate situation... They actually find it makes things more difficult... a lot of posters here press the importance of the given situation, while others choose to focus on the repeating patterns and work on that end...
It's actually quite complicated... But I imagine a flow chart could at the very least be educational... It would very likley produce a lot of conflict as well lol
And when you do get to speak with a lawyer, the objective of the meeting is to explore your legal options.
Find out what you CAN do legally to pressure her to act her age. Right now she likley doesn't think you have any leverage.
You may actually do better leaving yourself... and taking the kids with you... if by law you can do that and to offer her a visitation agreemetn or something.
I really don't know if you can ask HER to leave until she's done cheating, but you certainly are within your rights for you to leave... not sure about the kids... all of these things the lawyer should be able to offer more advice on.
Just make sure he knows you want to find out what leverage you have to apply pressure on her to act in the best interests of the marriage insted of destructively twoards the marriage as she is doing now.
You can apply other pressures at home, cut the phone bill, internet, etc... If you can limit her extracurricular activities with wtihholding financial support for them (kill your internet service and phone service, etc) that may help too.
We don't have full details of household management there, so its a tough call.
If you are in IT you can manage your router to restrict internet activity to a specific mac address (just your PC) for example, as well... so you can lock her out of the internet.
If you pay her phone bill, cancel the phone service and just use your cell phone, etc
You just withdraw any financial support from her that she is using to the detriment of the marriage. If she complains you just tell her that outright - I refuse to financially support your infidelitiy that is detrimental to us and our children - I am not going to HELP you CHEAT - ANYMORE.
Whatever you can restrict her from that can keep her from OM and that is within teh bounds of the law - do it.
The state code allows me to get a "temporary separation order". I'm thinking about doing that and asking her to leave next week. I will try getting her to choose first, then use the "temporary separation order" as a backup plan. In the mean time, I'm not pursuing or doing any R talk. Now here is my dilema:
1. She has nowhere to go. Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her?
2. My wife takes care of our two daughters ages 7 and 3 during the day while I am at work. I can't afford childcare. Should I have her come get the kids every morning before I leave for work? If she doesn't show up some morning, it would cause me to be late for work, but I could get a backup plan. There are church friends who would be willing to babysit occasionally.
To think that this is all because she refuses to stop communicating with the OM, which she is doing mostly by phone about 3 times a week.
The other alternative is restrict the OM from your wife or reduce her desireability.
I'm listening - how do I do that?
Reading up on the code, it looks like the court can help make arrangements for childcare in the case of separation or divorce.
Now here is my dilema:
1. She has nowhere to go. Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her?
2. My wife takes care of our two daughters ages 7 and 3 during the day while I am at work. I can't afford childcare. Should I have her come get the kids every morning before I leave for work? If she doesn't show up some morning, it would cause me to be late for work, but I could get a backup plan. There are church friends who would be willing to babysit occasionally.
First of all, GOOD JOB on learning your legal rights!
Ken, you need to have ALL of this planned out by the time you confront your wife. This needs to be a "I have learned that ________ , and this is what I've decided: __________________" meeting. Calm, confident, not a debate -- you are INFORMING her of what's going to happen.
You need to have every duck in a row. "I've made arrangements for X," and "I've already covered that with Y" -- that sort of thing.
Are you good at making detailed plans? It sounds like you are.
As Coach would say, "you can handle it."
Puppy
I'm listening - how do I do that?
Ken5140,
Before us men become so tolerant, the OM might never be found, or he might have had his knees broken.
On the wife. An AIDS rumor or something like that or drugs. Or OM is doing anything related to drugs the appropriate parties are tipped off.
OM is doing something that he shouldnt be doing, and even raising the specter of doubt in certain area's will be enough to put enough heat on him that he stops doing some things.
There are ways, legal and not-legal.
Thanks, Puppy and DaddyLongShanks. I totally agree, Puppy. I want to have it all planned out.
She has nowhere to go. Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her? What do you think?
(Still seeking suggestions from the board on this.)
Thanks, Puppy. I totally agree. I want to have it all planned out.
She has nowhere to go. Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her? What do you think?
(Still seeking suggestions from the board on this.)
"Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her?" - thats gay man.
It's pretty much this "all this BS stops right now."
I'm listening - how do I do that?
Ken5140,
Before us men become so tolerant, the OM might never be found, or he might have had his knees broken.
On the wife. An AIDS rumor or something like that or drugs. Or OM is doing anything related to drugs the appropriate parties are tipped off.
OM is doing something that he shouldnt be doing, and even raising the specter of doubt in certain area's will be enough to put enough heat on him that he stops doing some things.
There are ways, legal and not-legal.
Thanks, Puppy and DaddyLongShanks. I totally agree, Puppy. I want to have it all planned out.
She has nowhere to go. Should I help her find an apartment or have the OM come get her? What do you think?
(Still seeking suggestions from the board on this.)
I thought Clark Gable had a pretty good answer for this in
Gone With the Wind. It started with "Frankly, my dear . . . "
Ken... You aren't doing this to "get her to choose first"
The objective is to take a stand for your marriage and CHALLENGE your wife's beligerence.
This is NOT a NEGOTIATION... you state your position and WALK AWAY... You are showing her consequences for her actions... no TALK.. just DO.
And yes Puppy's right, plan this all out in private.. don't SHARE the plans with her... just tell her what's going to happen in general once you know what you are doing in detail. Let HER SWEAT out the details in private just like you did.. hse will likley PANIC...
This is GOOD
She will LIKELY try to play coy and charming with you to get you to change your mind.
Your answer is
NO NO NO
Your wife needs to see a GOOD FAMILY THERAPIST.. until she's DOING that, this is your direction and you stick to it, NO EXCUSES...
My FEAR is that as soon as your wife says verbally that she'll stop you will collapse and run right back into her arms again...
BAD IDEA
Do NOT accept her back until she's made some arrangements to re-commit to the marriage
Family THerapy
No passworded phones
FULL TRANSPARENCY
Acknowledgement of the infidelity as destructive
Let's put it this way...
Under current circumstances.. would you marry your wife right now?
Obviously not... so don't RECONCILE until she's offering somthing you would marry in the first place...
Allan A,
Agree, but it has to be where she WANTS to commit to the marriage. It can't be leveraged upon her, because eventually she will want to break free.
She will LIKELY try to play coy and charming with you to get you to change your mind.
Your answer is
NO NO NO
Your wife needs to see a GOOD FAMILY THERAPIST.. until she's DOING that, this is your direction and you stick to it, NO EXCUSES...
My FEAR is that as soon as your wife says verbally that she'll stop you will collapse and run right back into her arms again...
To be honest, I have the exact same fear, Ken. This is your nature; that's not a knock -- it's just an observation. Do some good, honest introspection, REALIZE this, and embrace it and make adjustments. THAT'S WHAT LEADERS DO. We ALL have weaknesses; it's what you DO with them -- honestly identify them, and adjust accordingly -- that will define the winners and the losers.
Do NOT accept her back until she's made some arrangements to re-commit to the marriage
Family THerapy
No passworded phones
FULL TRANSPARENCY
Acknowledgement of the infidelity as destructive
Let's put it this way...
Under current circumstances.. would you marry your wife right now?
Obviously not... so don't RECONCILE until she's offering somthing you would marry in the first place...
Yes. Yes, yes, yes,
YES!!!Puppy
Allan A,
Agree, but it has to be where she WANTS to commit to the marriage. It can't be leveraged upon her, because eventually she will want to break free.
No, it can't, but Ken can position this as "This is what
I need. You, Wife, are free to do whatever you want to do -- you are an adult, after all, and I cannot control you. But make no mistake, whatever
you decide will affect what
I decide, going forward."
There's a difference between laying out ULTIMATUMS (YOU-oriented) and BOUNDARIES OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY (ME-oriented).
Puppy
Having been a wayward myself 10 years ago in a different situation, I understand how difficult it is to communicate to one.
That makes sense, but this has been part of the reason I haven't been able to get her to leave. I'm hoping the "temporary separation order" will help her come up with something.
The idea Ken is that she doens't leave... she finally breaks and offers a commitment you can respect and sticks to it.
I suspect though, that she will walk out on you and the kids before doing that... She WILL come back.. you have kids... BUT... I am hoping you confronting her with a GOOD consequence plan like this will shake her up enough that you won't have to push this through to the end.
Note : BE PREPARED EMOTIONALLY to FOLLOW THROUGH.. this is NOT a threat, its a PLAN.. something you WILL DO unless SHE changes.
Do NOT accept promises and tears... accept MAUTURE actions ken.. this woman is a damn MOTHER... she's acting like a two year old.. do you want a two year old educating and raising your children?
Protect your family from this nonsense... be prepared to escort her to the door if she continues contact...
SHE is choosing the telephone contact and a separation over a marriage and a family...
that's HER choice...
YOU need to find a good family therapist too... don't wait til she agrees to see one to start looking...get one NOW
How hard would it be to cancel the TSO? I don't think she will believe that you would actually follow through with it! So, maybe, you could follow through with it, get everything set up and ready to go, and THEN confront her. ?????
Whether or not she has nowhere to go is not your worry!
She has managed to sneak, deceive, and carry on without your assistance. If she chooses contact with OM over her family, she can figure out where to do it from! It won't be from YOUR home.
Hmmmm.... I was just looking at the word "nowhere". It can also be "now here". It depends on where you draw the line........
No, it can't, but Ken can position this as "This is what I need. You, Wife, are free to do whatever you want to do -- you are an adult, after all, and I cannot control you. But make no mistake, whatever you decide will affect what I decide, going forward."
Puppy
I duno about the idea of telling your spouse they are free to do whatever they want.. if there are kids involved this is not that simple is it?
I get what you mean pup, but when communicating to a WS they can very easily misinterpret that sucker...
What I told my wife was this :
"You have commitments here. I need you to either respect them and participate in our household in a healthy way, or end those commitments formally and EXIT the premises"
That's not perfect, but I think it conveys a point that's less likley to be exploited.
I understand you want to focus on the LBS's harm, I get that, but I do worry that WS' will take that as a sign that the LBS doen'st want the marriage anymore and that the WS has no obligations or responsabilities.
I do understand your point, Allen. My suggested language is to transition the formerly-over-pleasing, passive, I-can't-possibly-control-them types into a stronger stance.
Probably better for me to have said "You will probably do whatever you decide to do, but . . ." or "I can't stop you from . . . "
It is not a "free pass" if one says to an alcoholic "I hope you'll decide to get help. Whatever you decide to do, I cannot remain with you until you do, however."
The larger concept I'm trying to get across is the one of "No, I can't tell you what to do, but I can let you know what my "boundaries of personal integrity" are, and that if you cross them, then I will have a decision to make. What you decide to do will affect what I decide to do."
It's classic assertiveness training.
Puppy
Thanks for this list Allen....I LOVE lists and I am adding these things to my list for husband as well (they were already there but like the simple form of what you have.
1. Family THerapy
2. No passworded phones
3. FULL TRANSPARENCY
4. Acknowledgement of the infidelity as destructive
Ken,
I am just catching up on your stitch so don't have any input right now but will get back at cha. you have two of the best helping you right now so please LISTEN and follow through no matter how hard.
Allan A,
Agree, but it has to be where she WANTS to commit to the marriage. It can't be leveraged upon her, because eventually she will want to break free.
No, it can't, but Ken can position this as "This is what
I need. You, Wife, are free to do whatever you want to do -- you are an adult, after all, and I cannot control you. But make no mistake, whatever
you decide will affect what
I decide, going forward."
There's a difference between laying out ULTIMATUMS (YOU-oriented) and BOUNDARIES OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY (ME-oriented).
Puppy
^^^This too Ken...SOOO IMPORTANT HOW YOU WORD THESE BOUNDARIES TO YOUR WIFE
I have an idea and I've learned the hard way that I should run all my brilliant ideas through this board first. I'm thinking about exposing to OM's 17 FB friends.
I would say something like this, "I understand that you know [OM]. I just wanted to inform you that [OM] has been having an affair with my wife since July of last year and he has been relentless in his pursuit. If there is anything you can do to support me and my marriage, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks."
So everyone, what are your thoughts on that?
I like the aggressive stance Ken, but the exposure script needs a bit of tweaking :
I understand that you know [OM]. [OM] is pursuing my wife to have an affair with him since July of last year. My home that was once happy is now wracked with tension, stress, and guilt. My wife and my children are miserable. I ask that you support my wife, my children, and my home and press OM to leave my home and family alone. This is a terrible thing to do to innocent children.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Something like that with a bit more punch.. its still in draft, but I think i have added something you might find useful in there...
Who else have you exposed to so far?
Where does OM work? What does he do for a living at all? I think you said he is living off savings if I recall?
I have an idea and I've learned the hard way that I should run all my brilliant ideas through this board first. I'm thinking about exposing to OM's 17 FB friends.
I would say something like this, "I understand that you know [OM]. I just wanted to inform you that [OM] has been having an affair with my wife since July of last year and he has been relentless in his pursuit. If there is anything you can do to support me and my marriage, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks."
So everyone, what are your thoughts on that?
Do you know these people? I'm generally not in favor of exposing to anyone that you're not fairly certain IN ADVANCE is going to be supportive of your marriage.
Puppy
Allen,
I really like the way you have reworded it. Thanks.
I have exposed to the Pastor and his wife, two head elders and their wives, and a couple of my long distance friends. That's it.
The OM is not working, but living off of savings and real estate investments. He went back to school for nursing, but I think he's finished with that now.
Puppy,
I know some of them. I know some of the church members that he knows. Thanks for that tip.
I dunno.
I am not completey in agreement with PDT on this one.
I think if you expose to his friends and they don't "say" anything to him... They just keep quiet.. I think that may still embarass OM.. in some cases.
But the OM in your situation doesn't seem to have any concern for his public image... he sounds terribly childish.
I really am shocked at how ignorant these so called christians can be... they seem to have the idea that if they sit back and say nothing to the OM they are "keeping out of it", but the fact is YOUR home is under attack, if they say nothing they are tacitly supporting infidelity
When confronted with infidelity you have two choices...
1. Support the infidelity
2. Publically admonish the behaviour and ostracize those involved until they stop
Choosing to "keep out of it" tacitly supports the destructive behaviuor.. it isnt' "keeping out of it" at all.
I suspect the churchgoers are so damn embarassed they don't WANT to do anything or having anything to do with it, but they are just making things worse...
So many people don't realize the power of organized voice... its a shame...
I dunno.
I am not completey in agreement with PDT on this one.
I think if you expose to his friends and they don't "say" anything to him... They just keep quiet.. I think that may still embarass OM.. in some cases.
Allen, it's not the "keeping quiet" I'd be concerned about. It would be some of them actually agreeing, winking-and-nodding, enabling, etc. You've said it yourself, in today's society, it's sadly a small percentage of people who even stand up against infidelity anymore.
Puppy
Yup... its a dice roll for sure.. so that's my position i guess... warn Ken its a dice roll.. it may help, it may make it worse...
So, if they are a gabling person then roll the dice i guess...
I completely agree with you Allen that one who keeps quiet about it is actually supporting the affair.
Based on what you guys have said, I believe it would probably be good for me to expose it to those who I am fairly confident will support me and my marriage.
I think I will wait till the weekend is over though, so I can have a somewhat decent weekend with my wife. Because when she finds out what I did, she will surely be furious.
Yep -- she surely will. Livid, actually.
She'll also get over it.
Puppy
Yes she will get over it. And how you respond to her anger is important. How about a short, calm statement. Maybe something like..."I am fighting for our marriage. If you were hooked on coke, I would fight for us in the same manner. I am not trying to shame or embarrass you. I want to save you and our marriage." then walk away. (I know the walking away part is especially difficult for you. Practice, practice, practice!!)
(FYI, I said something similar and it was what flipped my H's opinion of me and where he found respect for me.)
WhatNow,
I was thinking about chickening out of this exposure idea just because I was not sure it would help my cause. But reading your statement gives me newfound confidence. If it has a chance of being a turning point for me, I'm all in. And I like how you worded that. I will probably say what you said if she confronts me about it.
Do you have an exposure script ready for these people Ken?
There are better and worse ways of expressing the exposure and its best to have a scripted paragraph rather than stumbling through it ad hoc
I was just going to use this one that you suggested:
I understand that you know [OM]. [OM] is pursuing my wife to have an affair with him since July of last year. My home that was once happy is now wracked with tension, stress, and guilt. My wife and my children are miserable. I ask that you support my wife, my children, and my home and press OM to leave my home and family alone. This is a terrible thing to do to innocent children.
Thank you in advance for your help.
You said it needs a bit of tweaking, but I don't really know how to tweak it. I thought it was pretty good.
The OM called my wife again while the kids and I were at church. He loves to take advantage of those kinds of opportunities. I also figured out that by talking to OMW that she went to see OM again a couple of evenings ago with the excuse that she was going shopping. I usually try to send one of the kids with her to avoid that, but they didn't want to go this time.
We have a church business meeting this evening and my wife is going so she can help translate to Spanish. I suspect that the OM may show up too. He hasn't been to church for awhile, but I think he was invited by one of the elders. I am burning to say to him, "Hey [OM], stay away from my wife, you creep!" but I dunno, maybe I should try to just be civil.
Well, OM didn't show up, so I didn't have to worry about it.
I reccomend you have a scripted response ready for each occasion :
1. Exposure to OM's friends
2. Exposure to church members
3. Exposure to OMW
4. Exposure to OM
All of these scripts will say something a bit different. If you have it written ahead of time (short and simple is best) then you will handle exposure much better. There is a VERY WIDE gradient with exposure - it can be done very well, or it can be done clumsily or possibly make things worse for you.
Don't just wait around for the event to happen and them struggle for the right wording.. have a script in advance... and stick to the same one... it keeps your message strong and clear.
I am going to also reccomend that you have your wife take one of your children with her when she goes out.. you are NOT her baby sitter.. tell her she has a responsability just as much as you do... don't let her walk out that door leaving you with all the kids like that...
And they may not want to go.. but guess what? I bet they want their mother not doing what she's doing even MORE.. when they are older you can tell them how much they helped protect their mother... for now just send them along.
I have exposed to the Pastor and his wife, two head elders and their wives, and a couple of my long distance friends. That's it.
The OM is not working, but living off of savings and real estate investments. He went back to school for nursing, but I think he's finished with that now.
OK, exposing to your long distance friends will do nothing to end the affair. Unless they are prepared to show up at OM's door to intimidate him or something... which I doubt will work anyways.
Expose to everyone at church... but more to the point.. HOW are you exposing?
What are you telling them and what is their response?
And ya, I would definitely expose in public at this point... It reads like you are being very delicate with your wife's reputation and OM's... While they soil yours...
Have a script ready.
Where does OM go or frequent regularly? OK he doens't work, but he must have a restaurant or something...
Thanks, I need to find out where the OM goes. I see the OMW about once a week at church and we talk briefly about the sitch and what to do about it. Maybe I can find out from her where he goes.
The OM has a few friends on FB that I don't know and a few that I know from church. I was just going to expose to the ones I do know because of what Puppy said. I don't want to take a chance of making things worse somehow. I was just going to use the script you suggested, Allen. Not sure what I could do to make it better.
I do feel like I need to do SOMETHING at this point. I feel like I'm in limbo and I need to stir up the hornet's nest again since it's not quite where I want it. She still talks to the OM by phone.
I haven't been pursuing my wife lately, and we hardly make any physical contact. Other than that, we are getting along just fine for the last few weeks.
I went to see a lawyer a couple days ago about getting a temporary separation order. He was fairly new and got out the books to read up on it. He didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. I guess we'd have to decide who gets what and when either of us gets the kids, etc. If I go through with this, I guess I'd have to discuss these things with my wife.
OK, I need to understand this better... you go to church and OMW says what exactly?
What strategy is she used to put an end to this thing on her end?
The thing is, that SOMETHING is the leverage you need to get your wife to act her age. That YOU aren't acting just enables her to continue, so yes, you do need to do something.
How does OMW feel about you exposing? Have you talked with her about it? This will impact her. If she IS on your side right now and the two of you are sharing some useful information you don't want to just expose and not even give her a warning. OMW should know what you are doing.
IDEALLY the TWO of you would be working together as a team with the same objectives and focus... I know that's hard to do. I have seen it done on this forum and it worked out quite well.
I would need to know OMW and where her head is at to say more on that end...
You should put together exposure scripts for each type of audience differently... they won't all be the same
The exposure script you use for one of OM's friends won't be the same you would use for a church elder for example.
What are the church officials doing? Just hiding out I take it?
When I talk to the OMW at church, she says she is using something called "Marraige Fitness", a program she paid some $400 for and she is now thinking about getting a counselor too. I don't know much about her program except that is seems to promote being nice to the spouse and she was very hesitant when I suggested detaching and not pursuing, but I did recommend the DB books and she sounded interested.
My wife and the OM stay home from church and talk to each other on the phone unless we go out of town for the weekend. The OM also calls once or twice a day while I work on weekdays. (My wife isn't calling him much anymore, but does occasionally.)
I haven't spoken to the OMW about exposing yet, but I can do that next weekend. I can't email or call because most likely the OM will receive the email or call.
I don't really have too many people to expose to, just a three or four that I know and possibly three or four that I don't know on his FB.
The church elders and pastor have spoken to the OM in the past about this and he ignores them. I may be able to persuade them to speak to him again - just not sure it would do any good.
On a side note, we had a pretty good Mother's Day. The kids gave cards and a gift to her and we went to a Mother's Day lunch sponsored by the church. She also spoke by phone to her sister, who just served Divorce papers to her husband and suffers from depression. We also have friends that just went through a divorce. Not a lot of positive role models around us unfortunately.
I just learned that in my state, adultery is punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary for up to three years. Wondering if I should inform the wife and the OM or if I should recruit someone to be the bearer of the news, or if I should not say anything.
ken5140,
Don't warn them. Talk to an attourney or appropriate parties to determine how this law is enforced. You really want to hit him with it, and if he can weasle his way out and crawl back home thats fine, but if its jail its jail.
Do more research. This is a huge weapon that many of us wish we had access to.
I do not know much about Mort Fertel's Marriage boot camp, but I do not think it is designed to end an affair. Most claim to address affairs but very, very few address ongoing affairs. Most of those expensive programs are full of stuff available online for free here, @ MB and on SYMC.com. All recommend what you have already been advised. If you want to keep this site for you, you can send OMW to symc.com. She will hear what you have been advised (although not as gently!)
Has the pastor spoken to your wife? Has he questioned her absence from worship? Maybe it would help if he were to call and check on her every Sunday? "I noticed your family without you AGAIN. Is everything ok? Are you using the lord's time for sin?"
just sayin'
Hmmm...
I think you need to do some working from home. I think you also need to take some sundays at home...
I am wondering what these church officials are "saying" to OM, because he's insulting the church too if he's ignoring them.
These officials don't care as long as it's kept quiet.
I think if you told these officals you will be exposing this affair to the entire church AND that you will be making people aware that the church condones the affair might wake them up a bit.
I have seen this before where the officals don't want to stir the pot or experience any embarassment, so they make it look like they are helping you but they really are just trying to avoid a scene.
I say give them a scene to show them you aren't going to tolerate their softball tactics. I would sit with them and insist them meet YOU and OM BOTH TOGETHER in private and settle it then and there.
These officials don't care about your marriage Ken, they care about their own reputation... THAT is your leverage there... As long as the infidelity is kept quiet and your divorce is quiet they will be quite happy with it... They want to avoid a scandal and gossip mainly... they are far less concerned about the fate of your marriage. That's just the reality of it.
I would hit these officials hard. I would tell them if they aren't going to DO something about this then you will be exposing the affair to the church AND will be informing everyone how the church turns a blind eye to this sort of thing and how dissappointed you are. I really don't think these guys are on your corner here... even if you think they may be.
If I were you I would be making a scene where the OM frequents... I would have a script ready and confront OM in public and keep doing it. Take some friends of yours with you too...
Keep researching the law. You may be able to get the police involved if the info you have is accurate... You will need to learn more first... keep on that.
Thanks Allen and WhatNow for that advice.
I met with the pastor and he is willing to to this. Now how do we convince the OM to sit down with us? And can you give us ideas for what we should say to him if he does meet with us? We can ask him, "What is your objective with my wife?" We think he will say, "To just be friends." That is what he has said before.
Also I need to ask you about a couple of other ideas the pastor and I had. What if the pastor or other church friends are willing to do the exposing. Would that be better than me doing the exposing?
I haven't been doing any R or A talk lately with my wife, but what if I ask her, "Who should file for divorce, me or you?" Is that a bad idea?
Should I ask the pastor to bring my sitch to the church board? He is willing to do that. Should he suggest censure or disfellowship of the OM? We don't think it will phase the OM, but there is that possibility.
Hi ken...Good work talking with the Pastor.
No big ideas here on what to say to OM. At the very least,"Your "friendship" with my wife is inappropriate and is interfering with our marriage. It must end."
YOU must do the exposing. Otherwise it becomes a gossip monster. YOu want control over what it said, at least initially. "My wife is involved with OM. I want it to end. Please encourage them to do the right thing and stop seeing and contacting each other."
Don't ask your wife about the divorce unless you are ready to do that. It will come across as manipulative and desperate. If you must know where you stand at any given moment, look at her behavior. Is she still contacting OM? You could ask her "Where do we stand?" but you may not get an honest answer.
Maybe the board could talk to him if your talk has no effect. Like the pastor could say he will take it to the board if this nonsense is still going on by their next meeting.
I met with the pastor and he is willing to to this. Now how do we convince the OM to sit down with us?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Pastor, and his wife, sit down with you, your W, the OM and the OMW way back in your first thread? Didn't do much good then. Does he have a different plan?
Should I ask the pastor to bring my sitch to the church board? He is willing to do that. Should he suggest censure or disfellowship of the OM?
Depending on what your church practices. So many do not exercise church discipline these days, but what about your W? Are you wanting the church to withdraw fellowship from OM but not her?
I don't neccessarily disagree with the things you've been advised, Ken, but sometimes I get the idea that you want somebody else to do the hard stuff so you won't have to be the bad guy. There's been a lot of talk about confronting the OM, but I wonder what good that would do when the problem is in the heart of your wife. The church can turn OM out, you can call him out to a show-down in public, etc., but if
she want
him.....then I think she is the one you need to deal with.
Thanks WhatNow and Sandi.
Sandi, I think the pastor once suggested that we all sit down and talk, but when I put the idea on this forum, the idea was discouraged so I didn't do it. The difference here would be that my wife and the OMW would not be present. We would basically be confronting just the OM head on.
I don't mind being the bad guy if that's what it takes, I'm just trying to know will help or hurt my case. I understand what you're saying about the problem being in the heart of my wife, but wouldn't it help if the OM makes a decision to leave her alone?
What can I do about my wife's heart? All I know so far is to try to be the better option, GAL, stop pursuing, and see about kicking her out. What am I missing?
UPDATE: My 3yo daughter told me that the OM went to my wife's work twice today and I couldn't keep quiet and I asked her why [OM] had to go to her work and she mad an excuse that he needed to take her something. She said that she is not going to stop talking to him.
I ended up in an R discussion and said she should leave the house and it looks like she is going to look for an apartment. Did I screw up? What can I do?
Did I screw up? What can I do?
You only screwed up if you CAN live with her continuing to talk to another man. If that really is a boundary with you, then no, of course you didn't screw up by communicating a consequence to her.
This feels like "screwing up" to you because you've never done this before. I say, it's about damned time.
Puppy
Sounds more like she set YOU up!
You are the sane one, the stable one, remember?!?!?
Ignore her comment. I'm sure it was meant to throw the focus off of her. If she chooses to leave, she will.
You have to get back on the horse and continue with your plan.
It is time to face your fear. In reality, there is very little you can actually DO, other than make the affair more difficult than life with you. Has the pastor spoken with your wife? Has he explained that the vows you both took before God were sacred? That after you say "Let no man put asunder", God would NEVER put another man in her path?
Ken, I resisted tossing H out and going dark. All it got me was a year of turmoil, and continued damage to my marriage. Now that I have left H and OW alone to allow their affair to disintegrate, I am already seeing signs that it is. (I think) He misses me, our life, our kids.
She is feeding her feelings with all the drama. It seems you are doing better with that but I am sure she sees herself as Juliet and you as the one in her way.
Prepare to let her go. Get things set up so you can keep the kids. Did you freeze your credit? Keep with your plan. Whether she leaves now or later, your plan doesn't change. Maintain your 180's, no pursual.
(If it were me, she wouldn't spend another night under my roof!)
Thanks for the reassurance. Not sure what she's going to do now, but she left and I'm guessing she's off to see the OM and try to make a plan (again). I don't have any credit cards. The only thing I would need to do is open up a new bank account. We don't have much in our shared bank account.
I definitely set a boundary. I told her that she is hurting me and the kids and that I can't live like this. I also spilled the beans about infidelity in our state being punishable by up to three years imprisonment (not sure if I should have said that) and that I met with a lawyer on Friday to talk about a temporary separation order.
She said, "You know I don't love you." And I said, "I know, you've told me a million times. So now you need to do something about it."
She said that since we have kids together, we should work together and be friends. I said, "I can't do that - it hurts too much." I said, "Work out a plan for the kids, and I'll take a look at it."
WhatNow, the pastor has gone over all that with her and she somehow doesn't seem to care. She has always seemed to me to be a devout Christian, so I don't get it. Oh well. She keeps saying, "I tried for 11 years!" and other comments like that.
ken5140,
What state do you live in?
Sounds good! Stand strong!
I meant freeze your credit so she can't use it to open new accounts with out your knowledge. She will not be able to utilize any joint credit histories.
DLS, it's Utah.
WhatNow, how do I do that?
Thanks WhatNow. I'll be checking into that.
I just exposed to about 10 of the OM's FB friends using this letter:
"[OM] is pursuing my wife to have an affair with her since July of last year. My home that was once happy is now wracked with tension, stress, and guilt. My wife and my children are miserable. I ask that you support my wife, my children, and my home and press [OM] to leave my home and family alone. This is a terrible thing to do to innocent children.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Ken"
It's getting late (about 10:00) and my wife is still out with the OM. I'm going to put my kids to bed now.
Good job Ken. I know it hurts right now, and you are likely terrified, but trust me it gets easier from here. Your wife is deluded if she thinks this guy is going to solve her problems and keep her in a perpetual state of bliss.
Reality needs a few weeks to sink in.
The only slip you made is validating her not loving you. Ken she does love you, she's addicted to a fantasy right now and has no idea what she's doing... do NOT support her saying she doesn't love you.
This is how you handle that :
WIFE : I don't love you... I haven't for a very long time
YOU : Love isn't a feeling, its a conscious commitment two adults make to raise children and support each other. And right now you are doing a miserable job of both.
WIFE : I want us to stay friends for our kids.
YOU : Right now you don't deserve a marriage or children.
WIFE : Why do you have to make this difficult?
YOU : Everything I am doing and I have done is for you and our children. You will have to learn about this mistake the hard way. Unfortunately me and our children will be the ones paying the price for the next two years until this affair ends and you realize how selfish you are right now.
WIFE : So now what?
YOU : Please leave. Stay away from me and our children, they need adults who set examples of commitment and maturity, not selfish children who chase fantasies and tear households apart.
WIFE : I love <om>
YOU : I realize you are foolish enough to believe he's the better man, but there is one important thing that you aren't acknowledging : I wouldn't do to this household alone what he is doing to TWO households. You can walk out of here to be with him but despite everything I would be ashamed to be in his place right now... .
And you walk away
Thanks Allen. I said those things to her after she came home and decided to sleep on the sofa.
Well when she got home, I asked her about her plan. She doesn't have one. It looks like she intends to stay in the house and continue the affair. As much as I don't want to do it, I think I'm going to have to use that temporary separation order to move things forward. I just read Penny Tuppy's book and as she said, I feel like I'm trying to "drive a car from inside the trunk".
Why are you asking your wife what HER plan is.. she has no plan, she's an ADDICT.
You set the pace of the marriage FOR her... you need to push her in two directions here... one of which she has to take, neither of which she will like
a. End her affair and attend family therapy to repair her marriage
b. Leave her home, her husband, and her children for a reckless unproven unreliable man
She doens't like EITHER of those, she wants
c. Continue a taboo secret love affair with a married man
YOU put a stop to c, make sure she knows c is NOT available to her anymore, and then she has to go with a or b.
She doens't like a or b...she wants c.. keep pushing hard on that so she cna't have c.
If you keep pushing her to choose a or b, she will have to pick one... in the long term she will relialize A is her best choice, but right NOW she thinks B is her best choice...
If you keep pushing her and hit her with reality A will start to look a better option.
Dont' hand the planning over to an addict.. YOU plan, YOU talk to the lawyer and put it all in motion. She will squirm and yell and throw tantrums like a five year old, but eventually a or b will have to happen...
Make sure A looks as invitnig as you can make it.. WITHOUT losing your self respect.. you are NOT a doormat.. you are agood person, but good people respect themselves too.
Why are you asking your wife what HER plan is.. she has no plan, she's an ADDICT.
You set the pace of the marriage FOR her... you need to push her in two directions here... one of which she has to take, neither of which she will like
a. End her affair and attend family therapy to repair her marriage
b. Leave her home, her husband, and her children for a reckless unproven unreliable man
She doens't like EITHER of those, she wants
c. Continue a taboo secret love affair with a married man
YOU put a stop to c, make sure she knows c is NOT available to her anymore, and then she has to go with a or b.
She doens't like a or b...she wants c.. keep pushing hard on that so she cna't have c.
If you keep pushing her to choose a or b, she will have to pick one... in the long term she will relialize A is her best choice, but right NOW she thinks B is her best choice...
If you keep pushing her and hit her with reality A will start to look a better option.
Dont' hand the planning over to an addict.. YOU plan, YOU talk to the lawyer and put it all in motion. She will squirm and yell and throw tantrums like a five year old, but eventually a or b will have to happen...
Make sure A looks as invitnig as you can make it.. WITHOUT losing your self respect.. you are NOT a doormat.. you are agood person, but good people respect themselves too.
Puppy Dog Tails is officially out of Whistles today. We hope to have more in stock tomorrow, so keep checking back frequently, but don't expect any further recognition today, no matter how brilliant your posts are. The management regrets any inconvenience this may have caused you.
Why are you asking your wife what HER plan is.. she has no plan, she's an ADDICT.
You set the pace of the marriage FOR her... you need to push her in two directions here... one of which she has to take, neither of which she will like
a. End her affair and attend family therapy to repair her marriage
b. Leave her home, her husband, and her children for a reckless unproven unreliable man
She doens't like EITHER of those, she wants
c. Continue a taboo secret love affair with a married man
YOU put a stop to c, make sure she knows c is NOT available to her anymore, and then she has to go with a or b.
Ken said he liked flow charts, so I laid it out pretty simple.
I think Ken's fear is that his wife will decide to give b a spin... Ken, the more reality you throw at her the more b will look like a fantasy that won't come true...
Start buying some books on divorce and the adverse impacts it has on children...leave them lying around the house...
I am still aiming for the big five again lol
But for today, I will take a four
At least this will keep me from getting voted off the forum lol
NOTE TO KEN :
When I say throw reality at her I do NOT mean pursue her.
I mean
1. Ask her to end her affair or leave the home
2. Offer her minimum support and child access
3. Offer her NO emotional interaction from you at all.. YOU ARE A STONE
4. Have people she trusts educate her on the reckelessness and short term viability of infidelity - NOT YOU
5. have people she trusts educate her on the long term adverse impacts divorce has on children
6. Have people she trusts educate her on the character of the man she is pursuing...
Note, she does NOT trust you... have someone she respects (not you) educate her if at all possible
This last avenue of education may not be available to you.
In such case, YOU collect articles and books for your own reading and leave them around the house where she may stumble on them and read them... do NOT make it obvious you are trying to educate her... put them on YOUR desk bookmarked to the pages you want her to read...
And then go out for a walk and wait for her to snoop.. and she WILL SNOOP
Ken said he liked flow charts, so I laid it out pretty simple.
I think Ken's fear is that his wife will decide to give b a spin... Ken, the more reality you throw at her the more b will look like a fantasy that won't come true...
I suppose that's MOST people's fear.
But I actually think the LBS has their own thought process, and too often it goes something like:
a. Do nothing; leave her alone, and hopefully she'll realize OM is a predator and a jerk, and come back to me;
b. Do nothing other than GAL, and hopefully she'll see my changes, drop OM and come back to me;
c. Aggressively attack the affair via exposure, take a strong legal stance, and lay out (and enforce) firm boundaries, which is all really scary, and would probably only push her into the arms of the other man;
And so they choose "a", because it's the easiest path. Or maybe they choose "a" with a smattering of "b" thrown in. That one involves some work, but the work is just all on YOURSELF, so it's still non-confrontational, and easier.
What they need to realize is that it's the combination of "b" and "c" that stands the best chance of success.OK, I'm giving myself a whistle on that one.
I had a spare laying around in the drawer.
Puppy
In such case, YOU collect articles and books for your own reading and leave them around the house where she may stumble on them and read them... do NOT make it obvious you are trying to educate her... put them on YOUR desk bookmarked to the pages you want her to read...
And then go out for a walk and wait for her to snoop.. and she WILL SNOOP
Yep --
like a moth to a flame. Puppy
Thanks so much Allen and Puppy for those thoughts. I think I'm starting to get it now. I have had alot of fear to overcome (and still do) because these ideas seem so counter-intuitive. But I am trying to work that correct plan. When I see other books such as Penny Tuppy's suggesting something similar, I realize that that must be best way to do it.
Allen, I actually did get a book called "The Case Against Divorce" and left it lying around. I think she picked it up once briefly. So yesterday I handed it to her and said, "Can you at least glance through this book before you decide what you're going to do?" I think she will do it.
Good grief Ken
Do NOT HAND her the book.
You LEAVE it for her to read on her own.
And the way you put things you are NOT offering her ANY HOPE
I realise YOU feel hopeless, but if you want to win her back you need to start showing CONFIDENCE...
The OM sounds like he has it in SPADES...
Handing her the book and saying "can you at least glance through this book before YOU decide what YOU'RE going to do..." you sound like you are handing her your testicles in a frying pan.
YOu need to find CONFIDENCE in yoruself and offer HER HOPE... she has NO RESPECT for you when you present yourself like a doormat like this...
I am not trying to upset you Ken, but look at the OM, He is CONFIDENT... everyone confronts him and he just laughs at them... your WIFE ADMIRES that... you need to FIND some of that...
STOP leaving HER to feel like SHE has CONTROL... THAT is going to KILL YOU here...
OK I get that. I need to come across more confident. I'll work on that.
A question: Tuppy suggests strict NC when you separate. Do you agree and if so, then what do I say when she asks why we can't just be friends? I just told her because it hurts too much.
And if she does leave, what if she comes back to the house? How should I handle that?
I guess I'll have to think about how to divide up the kids time and the property now and make a proposition to her about it.
A question: Tuppy suggests strict NC when you separate. Do you agree and if so, then what do I say when she asks why we can't just be friends? I just told her because it hurts too much.
Let me be the first to say, "Blccch." TOO NEEDY.
Better:
"Because I've decided that I value myself too much to remain friends with someone who treats me like crap."
or
"Because this isn't the way people treat a friend. I've decided that I'm worth more than that."
Puppy
If you've fought the A and outed it as much as possible and it is continuing, then indeed, NC during the Sep would be ideal...
I've not been very good at NC as of late, but when I did it for 3 weeks or more, it had a crazy effect...first, my detachment strengthened...I felt some power as well...
Second- W began to pursue- but this is not your goal...
The best thing to do while attacking the A is to do what Allen said- 0 emotional support, be the best dad you can be, and get busy w/ your life...
I agree w/ Pup about the letter- I did the same needy thing, so don't sweat it- the best thing is to learn from the mistakes of others...
If you can remember that you have great value even w/o W, and the your happiness is not contingent on her- in any way shape or form- you will be well on your way.
That is the confidence that OM has
OK I get that. I need to come across more confident. I'll work on that.
As Jasper says, you will gain it when you feel your power. NC is the quickest way to recover it.
A question: Tuppy suggests strict NC when you separate. Do you agree and if so, then what do I say when she asks why we can't just be friends? I just told her because it hurts too much.
Read the sample protection phase letters
And if she does leave, what if she comes back to the house? How should I handle that?
Change the locks.
I guess I'll have to think about how to divide up the kids time and the property now and make a proposition to her about it.
NO propositions. She ends contact, writes a letter to OM saying such, and goes to CT w/ you or she gets out! THAT IS IT! No negotiations.
You are not getting a D so leave any talk about property division alone. You tell her you will talk to her when she ends her A and does the above. She can see the kids every other weekend and call them before bedtime. (Let one of them answer).
Say as little as possible. Keep to the statements even if you sound like a broken record. (Anybody know what that is anymore?)
OK I get that. I need to come across more confident. I'll work on that.
A question: Tuppy suggests strict NC when you separate. Do you agree and if so, then what do I say when she asks why we can't just be friends? I just told her because it hurts too much.
And if she does leave, what if she comes back to the house? How should I handle that?
I guess I'll have to think about how to divide up the kids time and the property now and make a proposition to her about it.
Because it hurts too much?
Dude, this man is BULLYING your wife, your marriage and your children into a BLACK HOLE... that's the best you have?
Ken, you are a MAN and MEN PROTECT their HOME... what would you do if someone broke into your home and started looting the place?
Would you pour him some coffee and ask him to wipe his shoes before entering?
WIFE : Why can't we just be friends?
YOU : You HARM CHILDREN... You are worse than a drug addict... Until you act your age and come to your senses stay away from me, our home, and our children. I am their parent now... YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED of yourself. When these kids get older and want to know where their mother went I will be sure to tell them how cruel and selfish you were ... not thinking about them or our home for one bloody second.
GET OUT and STAY GONE UNTIL YOU GROW UP
SLAM THE DOOR!
Where do I find the Protection Phase letters?
WIFE : Why can't we just be friends?
YOU : You HARM CHILDREN... You are worse than a drug addict... Until you act your age and come to your senses stay away from me, our home, and our children. I am their parent now... YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED of yourself. When these kids get older and want to know where their mother went I will be sure to tell them how cruel and selfish you were ... not thinking about them or our home for one bloody second.
I really like that Allen, thanks. I needed that. I'm not very good at coming up with stuff like that on my own.
NO propositions. She ends contact, writes a letter to OM saying such, and goes to CT w/ you or she gets out! THAT IS IT! No negotiations.
WhatNow, pardon my ignorance, but when you say "goes to CT" do you mean to go with me to get a protection order against the OM?
Now here is my dilema and has been for quite some time. SHE WILL NOT LEAVE! And a Temporary Separation Order requires TONS of information, child custody info, division of property info, etc...It's a book. Do I just keep asking her to leave or what? I need help in this department.
I think you're thinking too much about consequences. It's causing you to go into analysis paralysis.
First things first. Kick her out. She'll go running to the OM. See how he likes her 24/7. IMHO.
I've asked her on several occasions to leave and she just won't do it. I wish I could afford a lawyer, b/c I think that's the kind of help I probably need to actually get her out the door. How often should I be asking her to leave? She comes home from work, acts like nothing is happening, and watches TV.
OK I just spoke to her and apparently she is looking for an apartment during the day. She asked, "Do you have a deadline or something?" I said, "Well I was hoping you could do it in the next week or two." She said, "OK."
That has got to be the nicest "throwing out" I've ever heard of. You are letting things run according to her timeline. If it were me, I would have packed her things up and taken them to the OM's front doorstep. Then I would have called her to say where they were.
I think it's the brazen acts of the man that get her excited. Personally I think you need to be more aggressive and get your balls back from her purse.
Where do I find the Protection Phase letters?
Penny's site
NO propositions. She ends contact, writes a letter to OM saying such, and goes to CT w/ you or she gets out! THAT IS IT! No negotiations.
WhatNow, pardon my ignorance, but when you say "goes to CT" do you mean to go with me to get a protection order against the OM?
Sorry, I meant couples therapy. A protection order isn't a bad idea...at least for you, your home, and your kids. Can you do that? How does that infidelity law work? (3 years in jail certainly would fix her!lol)Now here is my dilema and has been for quite some time. SHE WILL NOT LEAVE! And a Temporary Separation Order requires TONS of information, child custody info, division of property info, etc...It's a book. Do I just keep asking her to leave or what? I need help in this department.
I like the idea of leaving her bags on the door step or delivering them to OM. You may need to take some time off work.
No, I don't like that idea of leaving them there... It isn't sending the right message, its just hurt and spite speaking there.
I would start packing them and I would talk to a lawyer about how much control you can have over the primary residence... I assume its in both your names right now so legally she may be entitled to a key.
Then again, you also said infidelity is a criminal act so... She may not want to push it...
But yes Ken, get your balls out of your wife's purse and use them for someting constructive... She's cooknig them up for breakfast right now...
You don't ASK her to leave, you talk to a lawyer and use EVERYTHING YOU HAVE to GET HER TO CHOOSE to leave...
Pack her things and put them outside... start packing her things... Stop waiting for HER to do everything... ACT
Nothing much new to post. My wife continues to look for look for an apartment. My 3yo D cried when I left for work this morning and I cried a little on the way to work. I feel so much pain inside. I'm just devastated that my wife is actually choosing him over me and our family being together. All I wanted was for her to stop communicating with him. I told her this morning, "I'm not expecting you to leave - I'm only expecting you to choose between me and him." She said, "Yea, whatever."
I think I'm supposed to be "pushing" for her to leave, but its so hard to do.
Where are we getting these WAS(s) from? It seems like they all come from the same place, because they all implore similar forms of logic.
I feel so much pain inside. I'm just devastated that my wife is actually choosing him over me and our family being together. All I wanted was for her to stop communicating with him. I told her this morning, "I'm not expecting you to leave - I'm only expecting you to choose between me and him." She said, "Yea, whatever."
I think I'm supposed to be "pushing" for her to leave, but its so hard to do.
1. Pain and tears are good Ken, it means youa re groing up... your emotional limitation is that you let your wife run roughshod over your marriage.. THAT is somthing YOU need to work on... Being a supplicating (love that word Pup, i keep using it all day, even at work lol) Yes-Man is NOT the way to a joyful marriage... your spouse needs to respect you as well as appreciate you... and you nodding at her every time she asks for something is not the route to happiness... it sa blance between teh two of you.. I think you are getting that now.
2. You are to be pushing her in TWO directions - Separation AND reconciliation... Right now she's been holding onto an open marriage and that is not healhty for YOU.. so you force her to choose :
a. Reconcilliation - by working hard at being a good husband, father, getting a GOOD FAMILY THERAPIST and GOING regularly... leading by example, speaking OUT AGAINST infidelity in your own home, and in the homes of otehrs and in your chuch as well
b. Separation - Distance yourself and your children from your wife's addiction and destructive meladrama... its NOT healthy for your kids or you.. and YOU and your kids did NOT INVITE that addiction into your home, your WIFE did... so you psuh her to leave and to take her self-destructive, rainbow chasing a$$ elsehwere until she grows up... If she loves those kids she will be crying too... push her as hard here as you do the one above.
You CAN push them both on her at the SAME TIME.. it is NOT a contradiction...
You need to pressure her in both these directions so SHE has to make a CHOICE.
And lastly ken, you are NOT and SHOULD NOT asking her to CHOOSE between YOU and HIM... STOP TELLING HER THAT
You are asking her to make a choice between a and b above - reiterated below :
a - Repairing a marriage and a family
b - Destroying a marriage and escaping into fantasy
THAT is the choice she must make... STOP telling her she has to choose between you and this man...
I will quote Phil McGraw as well, just for clarify and some perspective :
From Phil McGraw :
It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.
You are an educated Man Kan, If you read that carefully you can see A and B in there.. THAT is the choice your wife needs to make, it is NOT choosing YOU or HIM, it is choosing reality over fantasy... STOP enabling and MISINFORMING YOUR WIFE - you are DESTROYING YOUR OWN MARRIAGE when YOU DO THAT
You are doing good ken, but when you speak to yoru wife it is VITAL that you educate her properly...
She is giong to be miserable while you push her to choose between these two paths... Do NOT CATER to IT!!! Let her SULK all she wants... she is going to try sulking and will use anger to manipulate you... I a very concerned that you will CAVE to it and take her back blindly... do NOT DO THAT...
Your wife needs to cry and grow up too... tears aren't just pain Ken, they ar GROWTH... when she starts showing them you can let her cry and watch teh emotional growth start to happen.. until you see that start ignore her pouting... she's just resisting those two choices...
I say too damn bad... The time to chase rainbows is when you are four, not fourty... she needs to GROW UP.
Ken, I post this article often, but I will post it again because of its quality - its worth posting a million tims until everyone gets it
-----------------------------
Love As An Excuse For Infidelity
Penny R. Tupy 2003
So often in my work with spouses whose mates are in the midst of an affair I hear the anguished fear that because he or she claims to be, "in love" with the affair partner, it must mean that the marriage is over and the cheating lovers are meant to be together. Soulmates - because they now feel the intense passion of a fantasy relationship.
But of course they are, "in love." That's what an affair is. It's what the addiction is. It's an emotional response (without rationality, commitment or long term thinking) that causes us to do things that are not in our best interests and that hurt other people and destroy what we have worked hard to build in our lives - things like homes and families.
The idea that love should be the deciding factor is any of this is completely erroneous. As is the idea that love is some magical chemistry between two people. It's neither of those things. Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
The interesting thing about new infatuation/love is that we are blinded by the offensive or objectionable things at first. I think the pleasure of having needs met by someone new captures our attention to the point that we block out the less desirable traits. But like any addiction, what worked at first to create a high soon becomes not enough - we want more. When that happens in romantic relationships the irritating things seem to grow in proportion as the pleasure from getting needs met slackens. Unless real change takes place at this time - unless the real work of building a relationship kicks in - romantic love will wane.
This is when the instinct to demand more, to be rude or even to lose our tempers takes over. This is when the internal shift from, "You are so wonderful, what can I do for you," to "You aren't doing enough for me and I'm not willing to do anything for you - you jerk," occurs. This is where real marriage happens, when we move from - feeling like it- to making the commitment to doing what it takes to craft a truly connected and compatible relationship. This is where real love is grown.
For those, who have never honored commitment when the going got tough this is where they begin to bail. So, yes, I am sure that affair partners are in love. Does that mean it's the right place for them or that they have met 'the one'? Of course not. It means that they are in the habit of going for the feeling rather than committing to doing the work of making a truly successful relationship. Unless something greatly changes for these men and women, they will do the same again, and again. They will not find lasting happiness until they get it that marriage is more than feeling. Being in love is important, but staying there is what separates the men from the boys.
Be an advocate for marriage. When you hear of infidelity, take a stand. Refuse to condone affairs and "friendships" that threaten the integrity of the marriage bond. Educate your friends and families on the seriousness of becoming involved outside the marriage. Love is not an excuse for betrayal and abandonment. Love based on that foundation is like a house built on sand.
All the best,
Penny
Ken, I post this article often, but I will post it again because of its quality - its worth posting a million tims until everyone gets it
-----------------------------
Love As An Excuse For Infidelity
Penny R. Tupy 2003
So often in my work with spouses whose mates are in the midst of an affair I hear the anguished fear that because he or she claims to be, "in love" with the affair partner, it must mean that the marriage is over and the cheating lovers are meant to be together. Soulmates - because they now feel the intense passion of a fantasy relationship.
But of course they are, "in love." That's what an affair is. It's what the addiction is. It's an emotional response (without rationality, commitment or long term thinking) that causes us to do things that are not in our best interests and that hurt other people and destroy what we have worked hard to build in our lives - things like homes and families.
The idea that love should be the deciding factor is any of this is completely erroneous. As is the idea that love is some magical chemistry between two people. It's neither of those things. Romantic love really is nothing more than a mathematical equation. Spend enough time with someone meeting intimate needs of conversation, affection, admiration, and play time - and you will fall in love with that person. Assuming of course that they are not doing things you find offensive or objectionable at the same time.
The interesting thing about new infatuation/love is that we are blinded by the offensive or objectionable things at first. I think the pleasure of having needs met by someone new captures our attention to the point that we block out the less desirable traits. But like any addiction, what worked at first to create a high soon becomes not enough - we want more. When that happens in romantic relationships the irritating things seem to grow in proportion as the pleasure from getting needs met slackens. Unless real change takes place at this time - unless the real work of building a relationship kicks in - romantic love will wane.
This is when the instinct to demand more, to be rude or even to lose our tempers takes over. This is when the internal shift from, "You are so wonderful, what can I do for you," to "You aren't doing enough for me and I'm not willing to do anything for you - you jerk," occurs. This is where real marriage happens, when we move from - feeling like it- to making the commitment to doing what it takes to craft a truly connected and compatible relationship. This is where real love is grown.
For those, who have never honored commitment when the going got tough this is where they begin to bail. So, yes, I am sure that affair partners are in love. Does that mean it's the right place for them or that they have met 'the one'? Of course not. It means that they are in the habit of going for the feeling rather than committing to doing the work of making a truly successful relationship. Unless something greatly changes for these men and women, they will do the same again, and again. They will not find lasting happiness until they get it that marriage is more than feeling. Being in love is important, but staying there is what separates the men from the boys.
Be an advocate for marriage. When you hear of infidelity, take a stand. Refuse to condone affairs and "friendships" that threaten the integrity of the marriage bond. Educate your friends and families on the seriousness of becoming involved outside the marriage. Love is not an excuse for betrayal and abandonment. Love based on that foundation is like a house built on sand.
All the best,
Penny
Puppy
Sure sure.. give Penny five... sure sure.. lol
Where are we getting these WAS(s) from? It seems like they all come from the same place, because they all implore similar forms of logic.
It's a big farm down the road. They breed them from a huge mother alien that grows and grows and grows until it pops, and then they all slither out and make their merry way over to Walkaway School where they take lessons in deceit, script, infidelity, denial and such like before graduation when they're released to find us poor unsuspecting souls!
Where are we getting these WAS(s) from? It seems like they all come from the same place, because they all implore similar forms of logic.
It's a big farm down the road. They breed them from a huge mother alien that grows and grows and grows until it pops, and then they all slither out and make their merry way over to Walkaway School where they take lessons in deceit, script, infidelity, denial and such like before graduation when they're released to find us poor unsuspecting souls!
OK, where's that Belly-Laugh Award???
LMAO!!!!!!!
Puppy
Actually, I had heard they were all raised in an old abandoned sound studio in Burbank. Not true??
Actually, I had heard they were all raised in an old abandoned sound studio in Burbank. Not true??
That's where the cream of the crop go to do their postgrad....
Allen, thanks so much for spelling it out for me so clearly and also for posting that article. I needed that.
You put it in simple terms that are easy to understand. Now I see that I should be constantly pushing towards both RECONCILIATION and SEPARATION, having her make a decision for one or the other and not to allow room for the third option, the open marriage option.
I'm planning to get my protection phase letter ready for her now, because I think she's about to move into an apartment. I sure hope reality kicks in soon for her after she leaves.
Her sister, who suffers depression, left her husband about a year ago and he pursued for a short time, then went into NC after reading about what to do, and unfortunately she never gave him a chance, never called or anything. And now she is serving him D papers. I don't think an affair was involved in their case, at least not at the beginning. There situation makes me very nervous b/c after all, she is my wife's sister and they think in similar ways.
On a more positive note, my wife did pick up the book that I left for her, "The Case Against Divorce" and read it for awhile before bed. I also noticed she tried to do a background check on the OM using the internet.
When I get home, I'll probably ask her, "So did you find an apartment yet?" like I did yesterday. Other than that, I've been just basically leaving her alone and spending time with the kids.
I have a feeling some here would advocate that I go ahead and pack her bags and set them out. But for some reason, I can't bring myself to do that. It just seems so much like it would hurt my sitch rather than help it.
I wouldn't ask her if she found an apartment. I would get her TWO THINGS :
1. A newspaper with the rentals section in it opened up for her
2. A family therapist business card tucked into a book on marriage and commitment... Or some other suitable book
THAT reinforces both those points above.
Don't talk to her, just act. You should collect a lot of articles that explain how destructive divorce is to children... with an eye catching title.. print them up and leave them on your desk...
She may read the book, she may not... articles are often more inviting since they don't look nearly as intimidating...
Maybe even print up Penny Tuppy's article here in notepad (don't print from this site, copy and paste into notepad) and leave it on your desk highlighting the points YOU want HER to hear...
Don't give her the article or even mention it, just leave it on your desk in plain sight.
OK, that I can do. I'm going to get the stuff ready.
Thanks Allen.
Ken, its good to see you have been ready Penny Tuppy's Protection Phase book as well. Do you have an intermediary who has volunteered to handle communications between you and your wife?
That's an important step here, that and the family therapist...
You really want to be ready to get her into therapy when she finally agrees to go... don't wait til she agrees to go to start looking for one.. it can take many months to find a good one.. start looking now...
You haven't mentioned an intermediary so I am curious whom you are asking to handle that for you?
Hey pupper, what were those stages again for infidelity? I really should write those down.. you are saying a while back that infidelity progressed in stages
I remember ONE of them was the WS introducing the OP to their friends in order to get community approval or something like that?
I think listing those here may help Ken out a bit too...
I honestly can't see Ken's wife dragging this out too far, but its good to make sure Ken has all the info we can offer up.. I just don't have those phases or whatever you called them.. it was good stuff, I just don't have it accessible...
That's not ringing a bell, Allen. I've written some stuff about Stages of Remorse . . . could that be what you're thinking of?
Yes, I do have someone in mind for both intermediary and family therapist. Ironically, it's the pastor and his wife for both jobs. The pastor's wife is a counselor and they live fairly close and can be the intermediaries too.
My wife asked me today about when I was going to get a temporary separation order and I told her that I was hoping that we could do this ourselves so I wouldn't need that, but that I HAVE spoken to a lawyer and will use the TSO if she cannot make a decision soon. So I got caught up in a bit of R talk, but at first I was merely answering her question. Then I made it clear that there were only two options for me at this point - SEPARATION or RECONCILIATION. And I explained why as we have discussed on this board.
At one point, she asked, "What if I stop talking to him (the OM)?" I said, "Well then I would feel like I could work with you, but otherwise I could not just remain friends because you are treating me like crap and you harm children and I cannot be friends with someone like that." She denied harming children, but I stuck to my guns and tried to make myself very clear.
At one point, she asked, "What if I stop talking to him (the OM)?"
Woo-Hooo! Memorize what you said so when it comes up again, you can be consistent.
Don't forget to add a NC letter to OM, and full transparency in addition to NC w/OM! These are important to rebuild trust, and she must commit to them from the beginning. Your counselor needs to be well-versed in these concepts.
What does your PP letter to her look like?
Ken, don't tell her your plans with the lawyers or any of that... just DO it.. stop putting her in the loop, you are gonna have a VERY HARD TIME with protection phase if you keep that up...
IGNORE her when she wants to know things... shes got no right to demand info when she's sneaking around behind your back calling other men.
Good job for the whole though!
Note : Don't explain yourself, the more you go into detail the less determined you will sound... just tell she's galavanting about with OM instead of parenting her children and walk away.
Regarding the harming children that's an easy one to prove if you need convincing... or you can drop a phone log on the table and show her that...
What... 40 hours on the phone this week talking to him? That's 40 hours she is neglecting her kids... toss her out... addicts make crappy parents.
How many hours has she and OM spent together that she COULD have put into mothering her kids?
How many hours of their mother's time has OM STOLEN from YOUR KIDS?
Every hour she puts into OM is an hour your wife SHORT CHANGES her kids...
Very basic math there... shes either a mother or a cheater, she can't be both...
Ken, don't tell her your plans with the lawyers or any of that... just DO it.. stop putting her in the loop, you are gonna have a VERY HARD TIME with protection phase if you keep that up...
Note : Don't explain yourself, the more you go into detail the less determined you will sound.
Yes! Allan is so right. This is important! When you do these things, it sounds as if you asking for her permission or agreement. That is why a PP letter is a good thing. If she doesn't understand you, she can read and re-read your statement until she does get it.
Yup... Ken, don't TELL your WIFE yoru PLANS... WHATEVER reaction you THINK you might get.. it WON'T HAPPEN... So STOP it.
YOu are LOOKING for a specific reaction from your wife when you give away your plans like that I know it... Do NOT expect anything but negativity and destructive behaviour, tantrums, lies, pouting, and eventually crying...
Stop pursuing your wife through this stuff, it IS pursuit, you are trying to get an emotional reaction..
MWD calls it temperature taking in her book... You are trying to take a temerature or reading of her emotions and the state of your marriage by poking at her with info ...
STOP IT.
The TELLING your wife you are doing something is NOT going to change things.. its in teh DOING.. its ALWAYS in the DOING... and it takes weeks for a reaction to kick in even AFTER you do it...
Allen, I found a couple of very good articles on the internet and left copies laying around. One is called "Divorce Effect on Children" by Sara Eleoff" and the other is called "Marriage and Commitment" by Doug Goins. She did pick them up to read them and immedietely started to search the internet for info on "unhappy marriage effects on children".
Yesterday, she went to see the OM again while I was at work. I think they are discussing their plans - I don't know. I also got a newspaper with rental ads that I'm planning to leave laying around a little later today.
I'm holding off on the R talk for now. Just doing what you suggested for now. I just wish she would make a decision one way or the other for RECONCILLIATION or SEPARATION.
She doens't want to choose either of those Ken... That's her problem.. she wanted an open marriage option, but NOW you are cutting her off of that and she doens't like it.
Keep strong, she is going to try to come back for a second round... this ain't over yet.. but you're doin good now that you started to fight
Thanks Allen. I'll stick to my guns and keep pushing for one or the other so that she can't keep having the open marriage option. She really doesn't want to choose. My biggest fear now is that she won't choose. And I've been thinking that doing a temporary separation order may not be such a good idea either because the I WOULD be FORCING her out, would I not?
You aren't forcing her out if you are inviting the non-cheating wife back in...
This is sort of like an exorcism :
Out with the bad, in with the good.
You aren't just tossing her out because she cheated, you are asking her to come BACK when she STOPS...
Look at it like a time out you might give a child... you aren't throwing the child out as much as you are restricting their access to you and their family while they are being destructive.
As long as you keep inviting her to family therapy, warning her infidelity harms children, and that divorce harms children, and lastly that you want to work on your marriage with a FT, SHE is LEAVING then... you are giving her all these options if she wants to stay and making things inviting as possible.
if she rejects all of the family therapy, the warnigns about harming children, etc and remains separated then she is choosing to separate and do harm to everyone around her... which you are acting to minimize...
She is welcome back at any time.. so its not a throw out.. its a TIME OUT.
Phil McGraw says on his website the following :
Be mature enough to recognize that life is not always all about you and what feels good for you in the moment. If you are married and have children, you have an obligation and a commitment that far transcends what feels good.
If your wife insists on acting on what "feels good" to her to the detriment of her OWN CHILDREN then you have an obligation to protect these children and yourself from her. She is deluded into thinking her actions are not harming her chilren. How many hours has she invested in this man while neglecting her children?
Protect the children before one of them gets in an accident while she's too busy yapping on the phone to save them. She's not capable of managing children while she's addicted to an affair, she's proven that be allowing a separation.. THAT harms children and that is what SHE is accepting by refusing to end contact and to go to family therapy.
Dr McGraw also has a few other good points :
If you have children and you are cheating on your spouse, your children will suffer. You are turning their lives upside down, fracturing their family unit and destroying their peace and harmony.
The chance of a successful relationship born of infidelity is not even one in 100. A marriage that starts in infidelity has no foundation. You go into it with guilt, shame, angst, worry, and all the baggage that comes with that. Add to that managing your ex and going through possible custody battles for children.
It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.
You aren't tossing her out ken, she's CHOOSING separation over reconcilliation.
It's just a time-out Ken, she will be back... If she even leaves, which I doubt... Keep on your lawyer as well. Collect all the evidence of an affair that you can. She is going to deny it if it is to her advantage to do so...
Here's a few more from McGraw.. he has such a simple and matter of fact way of putting things I cant' resist quoting him :
If you have children understand that you have a responsibility for the effect that your choices have on them. Do not put your children in the middle of the fray and make them pick up the tab for your irresponsible behavior.
Turn toward your partner — not away. You absolutely cannot fix a problem inside a relationship by turning outward. All that does is create problems.
Don't play games in your head. It is a short step from thought to action.
Don't confuse reality with fantasy. We often forget that there's a difference between falling in love and being in love. You can't expect a love that grows to be like it was on the first date.
If you want to have a good partner, be a good partner. Put 100 percent into your marriage.
The problem is Ken your wife is ignoring all of this advice above and acting on what she feels like doing. It is the behaviuor of a child. Children that act that way are dangerous and should NOT have responsabilities under them until they CAN act responsibly.
Protect yourself and your children from her until she can do so.
All of the above is great advice, but your wife isn't recognizing any of it. So, she gets a time out and you and yoru family are safe until she comes to her senses... which is HER choice... she can come back at any time so long as she recognizes that her family are first priority and deserve her respect, not derision.
Thanks Allen for those thoughts and ideas.
Here is what she is telling me:
"You can't kick me out of the house."
"What if I stop communicating with him for two months and then we get a divorce. Are you still going to accuse me of having an affair and harming the children?"
It seems that she wants a divorce and is afraid to do it right now because I will say those things.
I really can't afford a lawyer, but that is what I think I need.
The next time a discussion comes up about her apartment hunting :
"You are seriously going to put these children through a stressful separation just so you can pursue a selfish bad habit and ruin everyone's lives? Then these kids don't need a mother like that... "
And you walk away. DO NOT ARGUE the point, you state the point and walk away.
Every step of the way, every time a conversation has to happen you make it clear to her that SHE is choosing this instead of rebuilding her marriage... EVERY TIME a convo happens about this you reinforce that SHE is CHOOSING this and that she has an alternative... got it?
If she keeps rejecting the choice of rebuilding her marriage then you aren't throwing her out, she's walking out... let her walk.. she likley won't get far...
Again always check with your lawyer every step of the way.. and collect evidence every step of the way..
She may try to accuse you of throwing her out :
"I am not throwing you out, or even asking you to leave. I am protecting myself and these children from a selfish and thoughtless parent. You can come back to your senses at any time you want. But ONE of us at least has to think about these kids. If anyone should be angry and stubborn instead of forgiving and generous it should be me... You walk out that door instead of rebuilding this marriage and family its on YOUR conscience. I am willing to forgive and cooperate... But I will not put me or these children through a wreckless affair in their own home... If you are going to ruin a life, its going to be yours... But yours alone... These children come first."
She is also still telling me that I am a control freak.
I asked, "How am I being a control freak?"
She said, "By kicking me out."
I said, "I'm not kicking you out; I'm asking you to choose - reconcile the relationship or leave."
She said, "This is how you are controlling the situation."
I said, "OK, what would be the NOBLE thing for me to do? What would you do if you were in my situation?" She didn't answer.
She also says that she's not going to a counselor.
Your wife is controlling the situation.
She's forcing you to accept an open marriage... You are just commanding a reasonable level of respect from your partner.
Good call Ken, that's an excellent response.
You know an excellent response when all your wife can offer is silence.. you KNOW you hit a nerve there.. excellent work Ken. I am very proud of you.
Note : People having affairs almost ALWAYS accuse their partner's of being control freaks.. its classic script, Ignore it. You aren't doing anything unreasonable here.. your wife is cheating on you and you are protecting yourself and your kids.
The fact is, your wife is controlling things by lying to you. People lie, misinform, and withold information to keep people from making a fully informed decision about their marriage and their lives. Your wife didn't want you to know about her affair because she didn't want you to ask her to end it.. so she controlled you by lying to you... and then controlled you by being warm and nice while cheating on you in secret...
Your wife's been unfairly controlling your marriage for a long time Ken... if anyone has demonstrated an excessive amount of control over the marriage right now its your wife. She's lying, she's pursuing another man in secret, and she won't even talk to a counselor.
She's controlling her marriage right into a ditch... not you.
Is she objecting to family therapy completely or just the therapist you have selected?
You can always invite her to select an alternative one if its someone specific, but I suspect she's just being stubborn.
The thing is ken, you've been mr nice guy for so long I don't think she actually believes you will push her into separation... she doesn't think you have it in you...
She's likley shocked you have been asserting yourself as much as you have been.. its your 180 ken, keep it up.
If she tells you that you are throwing her out, you tell her she's welcome to come back any time she wants to explore rebuilding the marriage with a therapist, but OM is NOT welcome into your home through the internet, telephone, and certainly not the front door.
Tell her she's welcome back any moment, but your household is OM FREE... its HER choice... rebuild a marriage like an adult, or pursue a self-destructive children's fantasy...
She's objecting to any type of counselor.
I know that I'm supposed to avoid R talk, but is it possible that my case is an exception to the rule? Because as you say, she IS controlling our relationship right into a ditch. A normal unhappy spouse would either fix things or leave, but she is using me.
I could say to her, "What could I do that would be less controlling? Would you be better off single? What am I doing that is making me impossible to live with? [she would likely say - not allowing her to talk to OM. She also doesn't want me to say that she is having an affair or talk to her family about it if she leaves] Then I say, "What would you do if you were in my situation?"
I told her, "Expecting your spouse to not have an affair is not being controlling. It's a expectation that any normal person who gets married would and should expect."
This begs an interesting question for me as well.
Is MC really any use with OP in the picture?
Finally!!! Five whistles at long last! lol :DD
This begs an interesting question for me as well.
Is MC really any use with OP in the picture?
IN the context of repairing a marriage no.
In the context of providing an offset to the destructive influences of the OP, yes.
While OP and their bad influences continue to seduce a WS, you have your work cut out for you.
Some FT can be very persuasive and getting a WS in the door to hear an alternative view can be effective by at least having a chance to put a doubt in the mind of the WS.
Phil McGraw did an excellent affair intervention last October - you can read the story here :
http://drphil.com/shows/show/1335/It's a two parter - don't miss the second part.
McGraw did make a significant dent. He did NOT dispell the addiction, but I think he did give the WS some things to think about... granted this was in front of her entire family and the public... this is why exposure has such a powerful effect.
Hi Ken,
Hope you're doing OK today, and sorry for the brief hijack of your thread.
IN the context of repairing a marriage no.
In the context of providing an offset to the destructive influences of the OP, yes.
While OP and their bad influences continue to seduce a WS, you have your work cut out for you.
Some FT can be very persuasive and getting a WS in the door to hear an alternative view can be effective by at least having a chance to put a doubt in the mind of the WS.
Thanks Allen. Maybe I will give it a go. Or do you think it is too late in my sitch? Shoud've been done in the beginning. Not after they've been living in fantasyland for 3 months.
I have been contemplating seeing a local solution based therapist in the last few days, now that my finances are more sorted I might be able to afford it. I wonder if inviting the WAW again in the 'pretence' of finding out exactly where my mistakes fell in the demise of our marriage for moving on purposes would do any good. She'd probably still say no I suppose, but maybe it would put a bit more pressure on their relationship if she were spending an hr a week with me too.
She's merely avoided the sMIL attempts to spell out the ridiculousness of her behaviour in the last few weeks, fobbed her off with no mention of any OW and merely "I shouldn't have got married." I suspect she knows what she has done is wrong, but feels it wasn't an affair as they allegedly didn't actually sleep together until 2 or 3 weeks after she asked me to leave because the R between us was over. I'd give anything to have her listen properly to someone explaining how damaging EAs are, and how easily they become PAs, and that the grass is NOT greener with a manipulative, serial predator with nothing in common with her.
UPDATE: This morning, I handed my wife some paperwork for a temporary separation order. She responded by saying, "You can't kick me out." I said, "With a temporary separation order, one of us has to leave. Since you are the one having an affair, it will be you."
She took the papers and hid them. I said, "Don't worry about those papers. I'm going to do divorce papers instead. I'll have them ready for you when you get back from shopping." (I was thinking of backing down later and saying that I have to do it on a weekday with my lawyer.)
She didn't say anything. A little while later, I said, "There is one way we could work this out peacefully. You could stop talking to the OM for 3 months (she wouldn't agree to 6 months) and then if it doesn't work out, we can have a peaceful divorce like you want." (As if that exists.)
She agreed! She's willing to sit down with me and send him a letter of NC. I told her, "If you break that agreement, the deal's off. There will be a big ugly divorce and I will fight for the kids." (I don't think I will really do that, but it gave me leverage. Me fighting for the custody of the kids is the one thing she is most afraid of.
I know this is not ideal, but I think I need to take what I can get. I know that three months for me cannot compare to 10 months of a relationship with the OM, but I'm at my wits end. She won't leave, and this is the closest we can come to reconciliation.
She's not going to cut him out... she's going to try to contact him around your back.
Get a FAMILY THERAPIST .. NOW... she's just going to avoid you for three months otherwise.
Allen, unfortunately my wife is not willing to see a counselor or a family therapist.
I was getting the letter of NC ready to send off to the OM and she said just send it and then she left. She may have gone to see the OM or just to talk to him on her cell phone. I have a feeling she'll be gone for quite awhile. I'm waiting till she gets back to actually send the letter or the OM will know it's from me and not her.
I received a letter from a friend from church who has been following my sitch and he says this:
---------
"It appears that you are trying to give W an ultimatum which is move out or reconcile. From a Bible perspective reconciliation comes about from a person having a changed heart or a willing heart. Reconciliation is never forced God is not interested in making us into robots He wants our hearts.
What is necessary for reconciliation to take place?
“And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.” 1 Corinthians 7:11
God desires reconciliation and this cannot take place if the wife departs from her husband. Once you separate you are going to create several difficulties.
1. The children are going to be shared (tossed from one home to the other)
2. You will need a baby sitter ( added expense or being imposing for free help)
3. The chances of reconciling will be greatly lessened
4. It will open the doors for temptation for both the husband and wife
I would like to come back to some of the main points I have made before so please be patient with me. I will try a different approach which I hope will make sense.
It is my belief that your focus on the OM is understandable but let’s just for a moment say that W quits seeing and talking to him then what? So you think you have leveled the playing field but have you really? How do you solve the original problem which in some degree started this whole problem? W is unhappy with something you are doing remember she stated that “you will never change.” In order for reconciliation to take place this needs to be resolved.
I wonder if a better approach would be something like this. “W I understand that you feel that I will never change but if I was to get some counseling and if you would be patient with me I believe God can help me to change.”
This approach shows that you are willing to start the process of reconciliation you cannot throw the whole ball in her court. Marriage is a two way street. You are not totally innocent it takes both parties with willing spirits to serve and love God in order for reconciliation to take place.
The idea is to try to stay together to work out your differences.
I am trying to see this from W’s perspective and this is what I think she feels.
She feels like you are never going to change and have only proved it by spying on her, by invading her privacy by reading her emails, by dictating to her what you want her to do. All these things have only confirmed her belief that you are controlling and that you will never change which is closing the door of any hope in her mind. I think she is very unhappy in her marriage and because of this is seeking the OM for help she does not feel loved by you and now you have a broken trust. She would like to leave but does not have enough money to leave and is also torn because of the children. If I am right in my understanding of this she is suffering as much as you are. Who likes being married to a controlling person who does not listen?
Reconciliation would be the best thing but you would need someone who understands you and who can help you to see what you are doing that is alienating her affections. You both need someone who can help you work through your difficulties together. No talk no walk and talk cannot be forced you need to think of a way that would open your wife’s heart so that she will want to reconcile.
I don’t see that your ultimatum “move or reconcile” is a good approach at this time. You have to take responsibility for some of the problem and by forcing her to move out makes it appear that she is the whole problem. It is not my intent to be unkind but I think this is a more realistic view of the situation one which the forum has not addressed.
Please write me back as I need your input. I just don’t want to send this email into the air not knowing what you are thinking. We need to talk also in order to walk."
-------------
To which I responded:
"I am not doing anything that merits her calling me a "control freak". It is very reasonable to expect her to not cheat on me emotionally or otherwise. If I do nothing, I am accepting the "OPEN MARRIAGE" where she treats me like dirt.
I have asked her many times what I can do to change and basically there is nothing I can do. She has stated that she is not attracted to me, she is not in love with me, never was, and never can or will be. I am not pursuing her - I have been leaving her alone. She has been very unwilling to work with me. I have learned that if I try to be affectionate, it backfires.
What can I possibly change? She will not tell me. I do not have an addiction of any sort. She keeps referring back to problems we had years ago. I am open minded and willing to listen. I am not invading her privacy anymore. What more could she ask? Is it not reasonable to expect that your spouse not have an affair? I believe that I must take some form of action as do the people on the forum. It is my only chance."
Sorry Ken, but your friend is not a family therapist who specializes in this area - infidelity.
How would your friend handle this if your wife had a gambling problem or a drinking probelm? It's the same problem Ken - addiction.
It's handled in the same way - cut them off - no more enabling an addict. Get the children to safety and the loved ones to safety and let them fumble about on their own.
Offer them reconcilliation but ONLY under the agreement that they END the ADDICTION.
Does your friend have ANY of this experience at all to draw on?
Their points are points that have been argued on this forum and defeated over and over again.
Most of my advice comes from Penny Tuppy's work.. she DOES this for a LIVING.. BEEN there for MANY HOUSEHOLDS.. I suspect your friend has NONE of this experience.
Sorry, but I will trust hands on experience before a biblical quote.
Why press a wife to end contact who refuses to reconcile?
This is why...
-----------------------------------
Holes in the Roof
Penny R. Tupy June 2004
I love houses. Always have. A favorite weekend recreation is to tour the semi annual parade of homes or to check out the newest open models in the upscale developments around the area. During my thirties I was an avid member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation; my fun reading was made up of publications such as "Early American Life" and "Preservation." I've lived in an old house, built at the turn of the last century, and in an historic house of a modern sort – built in the `40's with design elements which were decades ahead of their time. For several years I had a recreational decorating and design business. I helped restore a Victorian, once facing condemnation, to near museum quality standards. I've painted concrete floors to look like marble, designed my kitchen from the walls out, and made strategic suggestions for the structural elements of our current state of remodel. I love houses. And in fact, when I travel to other parts of the country I am far more likely to photograph the residential architecture than I am to record the family on vacation. (Much to the chagrin of my children in later years..)
So, what does this have to do with marriage? Well, I live in the upper Midwest where Mother Nature mesmerizes us with thunderstorms, floods, and tornadoes this time of year. Not long ago I watched a newscast about a house that was damaged when a tree came through the roof of a house in one of our many storms. (The man sleeping just under the spot where the tree entered the house was unharmed but definitely shaken!) It got me thinking about the correlation between marriage and houses.
A marriage is much like a house. When it's new, everything is well kept. It's clean. The roof is good, the plumbing works well, the floors are level and unscathed. But inevitably, over time, things begin to break down. If one owns an older or historic home there are always things which clamor for attention – similar to a marriage that's been neglected or damaged by thoughtless choices, independent living and outright harmful actions. A marriage in trouble is much like a house needing significant repair.
It could be that the plumbing needs to updated, the wiring changed from old glass fuses to code compliant breakers, the walls may be cracked and the floors might need to be shorn up to make them level again. A marriage may have issues and conflicts surrounding in-laws, money, sex, child rearing, hobbies, or even pets. Like a house that needs significant work, those things need to be addressed in small steps, with thoughtful planning and oodles of frustrating starts and stops.
But what happens when a storm sends a tree crashing through the roof? No matter what the state of the home prior to that event, all work needs to stop and energies must be redirected toward emergency repair. The tree needs to be carefully removed, the roof repaired and any other structural damage investigated and repaired before work can resume on the pre-existing conditions.
This is exactly the same dynamic that occurs in marriage when there is infidelity. The marriage may need serious repair work in and of itself. But once an affair sends a tree crashing through the sheltering structure of the relationship all efforts directed at the underlying problems take a back seat to the emergency measures brought about by the affair itself. There's no point in attempting to fix the cracked walls and outdated electricity in the marriage when there is a tree protruding into the bedroom and the inner structure is exposed to the elements.
The affair partner must be completely and permanently removed from the relationship in the same way the tree must be removed from the roof. It's a horribly difficult and painful process. Often the affair partner has been a long time friend of one or both spouses. The loss of the friendship and the betrayal that is felt is heart wrenching, no matter what leg of the triangle one is on. But a friendship that has intruded into the intimate structure of a marriage can no longer be considered a friendship. Boundaries have been breached, and there is no way to return to a state of innocence. None of the needed repair work to the marriage can begin until this step is complete. Intermittently ending and resuming contact with an affair partner creates the same kind of damage as picking the tree up off the roof and dropping it back on again – it creates larger holes and more damage.
Once the affair partner is no longer in the picture, the hard work of repair can begin. First and foremost the gaping holes left by the affair must be mended. Depending on the length of the affair and how far into the emotional bonding of the marriage the affair partner was allowed to intrude, repair work could be replacement of the entire roof or simply a minimal patch job. The longer the affair, with the marriage being exposed to the damage of wind and rain, the more repair will be needed. The holes left by infidelity are things such as damaged trust, resentment, the inevitable withdrawal felt by the straying spouse when the affair ends, and stress on the underlying structure of the marriage.
Marriages rarely end in divorce due to the affair itself. But failure to repair the damage from the affair will almost without fail lead to complete destruction of the marriage. Marriages end because there the gaping holes remaining which continue to expose the relationship to more harm. Some couples can do the repair work themselves. These are the calmly methodical sorts who can read about the necessary measures and implement them in without becoming bogged down in the emotional tug of war recovery always entails. For most couples, as with homeowners, hiring a professional is indispensable in making sure the repairs are done well and in a timely manner.
As the holes are patched, the shingles replaced, and the structure found to be intact attention can once again be turned to the problems which existed before the tree made its untimely entrance into the lives of the homeowners. Those issues and conflicts may have become larger or more serious because of the damaged caused either directly or indirectly by the crisis of the storm – that's the nature of destructive events; they have far reaching consequences. Time, patience, persistence, and good professional help can make all the difference in repairing a storm damaged home or healing a marriage torn apart by an affair.
Wishing you clear skies…
Penny
Hi Ken,
Does this friend know there is another man involved? All those quotes go out the window in cases of adultery.
The reason your W cannot be specific about you, is because she is making it up!
All WS's invent problems, create issues, blow things out of proportion, to justify what they are doing and to relieve their guilt. Tell your friend, that she must give up the other man before any therapist worth their salt will work on marriage issues with you.
Does he expect you to continue to live with her and OM? She will continue to find "reasons" to rationalize her behavior. You will build up so much resentment that your feelings of love and desire to save your marriage will wane.
She is deeply entrenched in wayward fog and talk will not get through to her. Only actions. She probably thinks you will slink off into night and she can replace you with OM. (They all do.) She has already told you she thinks the kids will be fine. (They all do.) She is living in a fantasy, and I believe the only way to get her to recommit to you, your family, and your marriage, is for her to LIVE her fantasy for real, not just what her foggy imagination says it will be like! Most A's do not survive reality.
Remember, it is not you, or anything you might have said or done!! Yes, you probably have not been the perfect spouse, but come on!!
Good post Whatnow.
I agree spot on with every point you made...
The FT won't work with her unless she agrees to work CONSTRUCTIVELY with the marriage rather than DESTRUCTIVELY.
I think a few weeks w/o her kids or a future will start to wear on her.. if she even gets out the door. Her backing down and agreeing to "no contact" with OM here shows she was weak.
To be honest Ken I would have pushed the six months and regular family therapy sessions... she's SCARED Ken... she IS scared... she does NOT want to divorce you... it scares her to have to leave and be a part time mom... I honestly can't even see her getting out the door. She backed down Ken, you DID scare her.. why let her off the hook this easily? I would have pushed it much longer... you let her off the hook... why?
She might, but I can't see her walking out on her kids for this creep... No way.
I suppose three months woke make a diff... Unless OM is planning to leave his wife too and he just needed time... I woudl NOT have let her out the door to talk to him Ken.. I would have told her it ENDS NOW and that's IT..
FULL TRANSPARENCY NOW... She is very likely going to try to fool you Ken.
Get paperwork together showing that if she is caught cheating you are the primary caretaker of the kids... Any contact and she loses the deal... do NOT take her word for it Ken.
There are dozens of stories on this forum of people who were at your point and they get lied to (myself included), they just kept seeing the OM in secret and hid it much better...
you will need to be HYPER vigilant now...
Thanks Allen and WhatNow for those thoughts. Very profound.
I agree. I also think that we are in keeping with the Bible quote here. I am not really putting away my wife. I would be willing to welcome her back as soon as she breaks off the affair.
She did go to talk to the OM today by cell phone to tell him all about the three month plan.
Here is the letter I am sending to the OM (mostly taken from Penny Tuppy's from letter):
-------------
OM,
The time has come to permanently end the relationship between you and me. In many ways this relationship was thoughtless and cruel.
In betraying my marital vows I was untrue to myself, my values, and my spouse. It is also unfair and unkind to you to create a relationship built on causing harm to others.
I have recommitted to my marriage and am determined to make amends for the hurt I've caused and to be the partner my husband deserves.
I am terribly sorry for all the pain I've caused, including to you and those around you. As I said, I was thoughtless and cruel. I hope that you will find healing and peace.
Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please don't contact me after the three months that I spoke about either. I need to be able to decide for myself whether or not I feel that I want to stop making an effort in my marriage at that time. I would ask that you respect my wish to regain my ethics and integrity and to heal my family. Please do not attempt to contact me in any way at any time.
My spouse has been told of the details of our relationship and he will also be told of any attempts at contact.
Once again, I am sorry for the pain I've caused to my spouse, my family, and to everyone else who has been affected by our actions.
Sincerely
W
-------------------
That is a great letter. too bad SHE didn't write it.
Maybe you ask her to hand write her own version of it. Or have her write one and when you see that her version says see ya 3 months show her this is what you had in mind. Already I can see that she has told OM that YOU have written him a letter and to ignore it.
I did the 6 month attempt. NC lasted 10 days and for the next 5.5 months he acted as if I was keeping him prisoner. When in fact I was the only one committed to working on M. 6 months to the day, H moved in w/OW, telling me he spent 6 months with me and needed 6 months w/OW! Today, 5 months into his 6 months, he says he is still confused. THE ONLY REASON he doesn't still hate me and blame me is the 180 I did (Mostly non-pursual). The only positive was the kids stabilized in that time.
Yea, too bad SHE didn't write it, but she won't. I actually give her about a 50/50 chance of maintaining her part of the NC deal, just because I know she has usually been inclined to keep her word in the past. Although with the OM, she has surprised me and has been more deceitful than I have ever known her to be before.
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with, so that doesn't help at all. I hope she didn't tell him to ignore it. I think she really is willing to go through with this because of my actions this morning, but I might be deceived.
You said your husband felt like a prisoner for those 6 months, so I imagine my wife will feel like that too for the next three months. I have felt like the prisoner for the last 10 months.
She tells me, "But I'm not having sex with you!" I told her, "I can understand you don't feel like it right now, but you have to keep an open mind and give our relationship a genuine chance or I will feel that you haven't really upheld your part of the deal. You're probably just thinking, 'I'll just do my time, and then I can get my peaceful divorce!"
I had a discussion with my friend from church and he said I should think about, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" And I told him, "I don't see Jesus just quietly tolerating this kind of sin. I think he would take a stand against it." He saw my point in that and said, "Well you have to what you feel is right."
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with
Then don't bother.
I would still stand by your boundary of NC, NC letter from her (handwritten by her) you see and mail, and full transparency from her or don't bother...she is just buying time to continue.
Ask your friend with the quotes to dig some up for adultery and he can give them to her!
Stop promising a peaceful divorce. Go down fighting!
I had a discussion with my friend from church and he said I should think about, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" And I told him, "I don't see Jesus just quietly tolerating this kind of sin. I think he would take a stand against it.
Great response!!! You are really beginning to think on your feet! Yeah look how he handled the money changers! imagine if confronted by adulterers!
Yea, too bad SHE didn't write it, but she won't. I actually give her about a 50/50 chance of maintaining her part of the NC deal, just because I know she has usually been inclined to keep her word in the past. Although with the OM, she has surprised me and has been more deceitful than I have ever known her to be before.
She did tell the OM to expect an email from me that she had nothing to do with, so that doesn't help at all. I hope she didn't tell him to ignore it.
Why of COURSE she did. I predicted this as soon as I read your "she just went out for awhile" post, above.
A true no-contact letter must be written by the formerly wayward spouse, and NOTHING ADDED OR SUBTRACTED FROM IT, as it is either mailed or delivered by the betrayed spouse.
Ken, if she refuses to write it, then you pretty much have your answer as to whether or not she was sincere in her offer of 3 months of no-contact.
She's playing you . . . again.
Puppy
Puppy is right on again Ken. I really don't like this.
This is not what we were suggesting. It is your marriage though.
But keeping her prisoner for three months just gives those two three months to plan ahead and get an apartment together.
You just reduced their stress level by giving them time.
Now she has another three months to look for a place, and she suckered you into agreeing to a divorce.
She played you. She is already lying Ken.
It's your marriage, but I would just pack her bags and send her out NOW.
Talk to a lawyer and restrict her as much as you can until she ends her affair. She's NOT playing fair, SHE is controlling this whole thing. Every time she throws you a rope Ken you dive for it like a child for a cookie.
I KNOW how hard this is Ken. I have been there. I had to out my wife too... and I had to follow through and mean it, NO COMPROMISE... two weeks after she knew I meant it she backed down... I say you push her out the door and she will come back Ken.. you just have to trust that.
It WILL make YOUR home more stable once she's gone, and your kids won't have to feel that tension anymore. Your wife is an addict and you need to get her out of your home where she has to fend for herself and she isn't using you anymore.
She will come back, I am quite confident of that... But this deal you have is just giving her three more months to plan... thats three months of stress she avoids. That three months OUT of the home would wake her up a LOT MORE than three months IN the home LYING to you.
Good Luck Ken, but I bet my retirement fund she's already started to plan with OM. Now they just bought three months of time to do it right without any pressure from you anymore. Talk to a lawyer Ken, because you need to be prepared to throw her out when you catch her contacting him. You will catch her.
I just don't how on earth you are going to handle it when you do...
Good Luck Ken, but I bet my retirement fund she's already started to plan with OM. Now they just bought three months of time to do it right without any pressure from you anymore.
BANK ON IT.Puppy
This is from Phil McGraw's website Ken :
There comes a point in time where you may have to draw a line and say, "That's it, I'm done. I'm not mad at you. I withdraw my feelings, I withdraw my emotions. You just go do whatever you're going to do because I'm not going to live like this anymore." Don't stay together for the children. Remember, kids would rather be from a broken home than live in one. They're much better off with one well-adjusted, happy, thriving parent, than they are with two who are cheating, lying, fighting, and living with stress and pressure.
Notes : This is NOT suggesting that the separation will be permanent. But McGraw above IS pointing out that keeping her in the home lying and cheating creates an unpleastant environment for these children. The tension between you and your addict wife is likely thicker than a brick right now. Kids should not have to be exposed to that in a room.. they feed off of it.
Further, no one should be talking divorce here. You want her out of the home so she misses the security and her family so much that she agrees to end contact and attend family therapy. Divorce is NOT the goal here, you shouldn't even mention divorce.
But more to my point, Penny Tuppy's eBook that I know you have read suggests she wouldn't be gone long anyhow. Reality will come down on her once she is out the door. She will start missing the security of her home, her kids, and the OM will be expected to provide for her 24 x 7 since you won't be contacting her... that puts a lot of pressure on both of them.
In most cases childlike people addicted to an affair can't handle that pressure and they will want to return home.
THIS is when you tell them they are welcome back WHEN they attend family therapy with you and agree to no contact and full transparency.. FULL transparency.
I wish you the best Ken, just be careful, you are negotiating with an addict, and history has proven this does not end well.
Thanks Allen. I understand what you are saying. I'm not planning to actually give her a divorce in three months. In my opinion, she's already broken her part of the deal by saying she's not willing to see a counselor, etc. I'm hoping that time away from the OM will help matters. It may not.
She is on the house deed, so it's very difficult for me to boot her out. Looking at the paperwork for a temporary separation order (about a half inch thick), I would need a lawyer's help in filling it out. I'm not even sure the judge would decide that she has to get out and stay out. But I may be facing this again in three months.
OK, I thought you had talked to a lawyer and he had told you that there was a possible criminal case you could file for infidleity or something like that.. maybe I read it wrong...
You are right, the three months may help, IF she follows through... but the fact that she ran out of the house to talk to him as soon as she negotiated the deal is a pretty strong sign that she's not going to follow through.
I would just look for any good reason to stand firm in three months... and have her out of the home.. I wager it won't even take that long...
But I may be facing this again in three months.
I've already got the note in my Outlook calendar, Ken. I'll plan on having this exact same conversation with you in August.
Puppy
Here is the law about it in my state: "That whoever commits adultery shall be punished by imprisonment in the penitentiary not exceeding three years..."
My wife says she has not committed physical adultery though. I believe it has only amounted to kissing and possible some fondling and of course lots of talking on the phone or in person and sharing verbal affection with each other.
The other option is to sue the OM for "Tortiary Interference of a Marital Relationship". An alienation of affection lawsuit is one in which a deserted spouse can sue the alleged third party if his or her partner leaves the relationship for another person and causes the marital relationship to fail. To prevail on the claim, the plaintiff needs to prove that:
1) Love between the married spouses existed prior to the onset of the relationship; and
2) The marital love was alienated and destroyed as a result of the relationship with the third-party; and
3) The third party’s conduct was a malicious interference with the marital relationship.
I'm interested in this option, but right now I can't afford a lawyer.
Right now, I'm planning to just see how this three month period goes and go from there.
Thanks Puppy. I just hope that I'm able to make some headway this three months. However I know that you will be very surprised if I do, and that what she really needs is a good dose of reality with the OM.
I'm just a firm believer of the "Definition of Insanity" principle, Ken.
Her agreement with me to not contact the OM for three months didn't even last one day. I can't believe it! You guys called it very well. You can take the 3 months date off your calendar now Puppy. I am really blown away by this. I checked her cell phone and they talked to each other twice today.
She tells me that she has another appointment with a lawyer tomorrow to find out her rights. She keeps telling me about the bad things that I did in the past that made her feel unloved. I haven't even been that way for a year or more now, but she doesn't see that. She says she doesn't love me and won't ever love me. I got into a bit of an argument with her about it. It's hard for me to not say anything. I want to save the marriage, but it seems so impossible at this point.
Looks like I'm back to figuring out how to get her to get out of the house. I guess I'll have to see a lawyer again too now. The other lawyer I saw was very new and didn't know much about temporary separation orders.
Do check out your right in a D as well. YOu need to hear what she is hearing so you are not tempted to believe more crap she sends up.
In AZ, while a no-fault state, has infidelity clauses so that a betrayed spouse like yourself would not have to pay any spousal maintenance and the judge can consider the infidelity in custody disputes.
You could leave with out really leaving....
Do you have a basement or livable attic? It might be a good place for you! Her free babysitter would not be available, etc.... How about renting an RV for the driveway????
Just thinking....
Hmm...Those are good ideas. I don't have a basement, but I really like what you are suggesting - maybe I can do the RV idea or something.
Allen and Puppy, what do you guys think of those ideas?
I don't like it. SHE should have to be the one to leave!
You keep looking for LEGAL ways to "make" her leave. There are more than one way to skin a cat. I bet we could start a brainstorm right here of ways you can make it much more difficult for her to stay.
OK, I'll go first:
Keep the thermostat at a temperature she hates.
Disconnect the hot water from her bathroom sink. Or put the hot water heater on a timer that works for YOUR schedule, and not hers.
Start parking your car where she likes to park hers.
Stop taking phone messages for her.
Be sure to cut off any and all financial support for which you are not legally responsible.
Take over the main TV.
Stink up the kitchen with your favorite dish that she HATES.
OK, that should get you started.
When my aunt got a divorce, she moved in with my mom. My mom loves her little sister, but they are two stubborn peas in an old German pod, and they can really clash when they're together too long. After just about two months or so, my aunt had her own apartment and had moved out. Someone asked my mother, "Hey Delores (not her real name), how'd you get Janet (ditto) to move out so quickly?"
"Well," my mother explained. "When she came to live with me, I made her comfortable. (pause) But not TOO comfortable."
Puppy
I agree w/ you puppy. She SHOULD be the one that leaves. And Ken has not exhausted his bag o' tricks yet. Save the RV idea for later, if you need it.
Ok so, you are acting w/out consideration for her.
Rearrange furniture and accessories to please you.
Get new sheets and bedspread.
Move her out of your bedroom and bathroom. (Boxes in the hallway are fine) Put a lock on the door.
Pack away any of her stuff you do not really like.
Bring home accessories she would hate! (Think guys dorm room decor! Neon beer signs, GIANT ugly statues from Goodwill, cinder block bookcase for your growing book collection)
Stop doing dishes or any house chores.
Don't keep a regular schedule.
Don't check in or say where you've been.
Stop coming home from work regularly.
Catch up on what's at the movies. Try a new restaurant. Meet up w/ old buddies.
Join a sport league or health club.
Pick up the kids and go out to dinner.
Pack up the kids and disappear on Sat. and Sun.
Ha... sell her car, lol
I would hate the above things, just saying.
Bring your friends home from work with you and tell them they don't have to leave... especially the annoying ones.
Bye Bye ms Ken.
Bring your friends home from work with you and tell them they don't have to leave... especially the annoying ones.
Bye Bye ms Ken.
LMAO!
Make your room an entertainment center for you and the kids. let them in for movies, games, pizza, whatever. Lock the door and turn up the volume a bit! Have a blast with them.
Am I getting too mean? DOn't wanna be mean, she thinks up enough reasons to hate you, but you need to go on with your life as if she's not there.
Stop paying the mortgage, that's what I did...
Wow! Those are all great ideas! That's got me thinking outside of the box.
I like the ideas of cutting off finances, cutting off the TV, and not paying the mortgage. I'm just a little afraid of alienating her to the point where she hates me and doesn't want to come back.
My wife got really angry with me this evening when our 3yo daughter kept saying, "I want Daddy! I want Daddy!" when it was time for her bath and I said, "See, you are alienating the kids." W was fuming! She was in my face yelling at me for quite awhile and I just stood there and didn't say much.
Then she went out and called the OM. When she came back, the OM called our house phone. So I answered and listened to his ranting and raving and calling me names and I also recorded the conversation and got him saying "Yea, I probably told her I loved her 100 times!" and basically admitting to the affair.
Now she is talking about changing her cell phone # and keeping her cell phone off and stuff like that. We'll see.
The OM tried calling back TEN TIMES up until midnight. My wife yanked the plugs out.
Sounds like all is not rosy in the kingdom of affair these days.
Keep it up Ken... That's good stuff... You see, when you stir the pot like that, her affair isn't romantic or beautiful, its STRESSFUL... I bet you made your home last night very unpleastant to live simply by taunting her to call OM and him calling back.
And that was an EXCELLENT challenge about alienating her kids... You hit it right on the NOSE and REALITY HIT HER and she did NOT LIKE IT... MORE of that... Keep it coming...
And you recorded the call too! Bonus.. Try to do that again with him fully admitting infidelity on the phone and you can get him arrested!
I bet the police would get involved too... even if just a warning... it still makes a mess of what was once a secret and exciting affair... just keep pouring vomit on their affair Ken.. it does work wonders you'll see...
Keep it up Ken... That's good stuff... You see, when you stir the pot like that, her affair isn't romantic or beautiful, its STRESSFUL... I bet you made your home last night very unpleastant to live simply by taunting her to call OM and him calling back.
And that was an EXCELLENT challenge about alienating her kids... You hit it right on the NOSE and REALITY HIT HER and she did NOT LIKE IT... MORE of that... Keep it coming...
And you recorded the call too! Bonus.. Try to do that again with him fully admitting infidelity on the phone and you can get him arrested!
I bet the police would get involved too... even if just a warning... it still makes a mess of what was once a secret and exciting affair... just keep pouring vomit on their affair Ken.. it does work wonders you'll see...
Yep --
BINGO!!!Puppy
She also was saying that I was controlling and manipulating her by saying that I would seek custody of the kids and saying she was neglecting the kids. And I told her, "I was only trying to save my marriage. I'm just trying to get you to choose. Reconcile or go live with someone who is not controlling and manipulative, is not critical of you, and will not cheat on you." I said those things because she knows that is a perfect description of the OM and she thinks he has been critical of her.
I said, "You cannot even keep your agreement for one day." Then she jumped up and followed me around trying to figure out how I knew she talked to the OM. At first, she thought my kids told me. Then I got her thinking that I can access her phone log online (which I can't). So she yanked the cords out of the computers and picked up a monitor but I stopped her from breaking it.
When the OM called, he also admitted to talking to W on the phone during the day. Later, he sent me this email:
"W is your wife, and I suppose it is your right to use manipulations, distortions, your own children or her parents to control her. Frankly, I just try being nice and respectful to her. But you win! I hope that your marriage can be happy as such!
I enjoyed being her friend while it lasted. You alone are a detriment to her future happiness!"
I did not respond.
My wife goes to talk to a lawyer today to learn about her rights. All the things that she complains about about me are things that happened years ago, except for maybe manipulating her by using the threat of D or the threat of keeping the kids from her (neither of which I really want to do). But I told her that I'm willing to go to counselling for being a "control freak" or for being a "manipulator" or whatever she thinks is my problem. She says that she can't eradicate the bad memories and that I killed the love she may have had for me. I told her that I wished she could get past that, because I want to be a different person for her.
The OM just called me at my work to tell me that he's not going to be calling my wife and that he's asked her not to call him and that he's moving to another state in July. We'll see. His promises before have always been like ropes of sand. He claims that whenever they have broken it off before, W was the one calling him and that he "is NOT going to NOT pick up the phone".
When the OM called, he also admitted to talking to W on the phone during the day. Later, he sent me this email:
"W is your wife, and I suppose it is your right to use manipulations, distortions, your own children or her parents to control her. Frankly, I just try being nice and respectful to her. But you win! I hope that your marriage can be happy as such!
I enjoyed being her friend while it lasted. You alone are a detriment to her future happiness!"
I did not respond.
GOOD!!!
Ken, its wonderful to meet you.. for months I've been following your sutation and NOW I think I finally SEE you... It's great to hear from the real you ... Keep up the great work. I think you can see the stress YOU are giving the OM when you pressure your wife now right?
When you pressure your wife to separate or reconcile SHE calls OM and HE has to deal with it.. and if he is with his wife then he has to deal with women on both ends of his ear nagging at him... KEEP DOING THAT...
Notes of things to be careful of :
Be wary of agreeding to go to any anger management class or control freak course or anything.. you should NOT be admitting any wrongdoing for current actions. Acknowldege mistakes you made BEFORE the infidelity started and own those.
But once your wife starts cheating you do what you have to do to save your marriage and protect your home, she has NO GROUND to walk on there and complain...
Don't take her crap for anything you are doing right now.
I am worried about this statement you used :
Reconcile or go live with someone who is not controlling and manipulative, is not critical of you, and will not cheat on you." I said those things because she knows that is a perfect description of the OM and she thinks he has been critical of her.
I am a bit confused there, but try not to tell her to GO to OM... You want her to
a. Work on the marriage
b. Separate herslf from her marriage and family
Those are her choices.. OM is not part of the advice...
The problem is right now she wants to remain part of the family and the marriage, but act in a way that does DAMAGE while being part of it.
Much like a problem child, as long as she causes problems for the family stead of supporting her family she needs to exit from that family until she demonstrates she can be part of the family again...
Keep that in mind, don't push her at OM, focus on that she's doing damage to her kids and her marriage, YOU are protecting the marriage, OM is attacking the marriage.
I don't know what to think of OM right now.. Keep collecting all the info he's sending you... he's practically admitting to infidelity at this point...
I suspect he can see your wife's quite the drama queen right now and he doens't want to deal with her...
Thanks Allen. Everything you are saying makes good sense.
I was saying those things about the OM to be sarcastic - about him not being critical when he is, not being a cheater when he is, etc. so I hope she got that when I said it, but I'll try to avoid sending her to the OM.
If I am successful at getting the OM out of the picture, I can tell I still have a lot of damage control to do, based on her words to me. I guess when you are pulling a stick out of your gut, you initially make the wound worse before you can start to repair it. I loved the story you sent me about the log in the house. I told the OM that I needed to get the log out of my house before I could fix my house and he said, "Who, your wife" I said, "No, you!"
Don't even try to negotiate with him.. he's just pressing you for INTEL to give to your wife... He will just twist it into something different and then tell your wife HIS interpretation... Don't try to educate OM.. He's had his chance to walk away when you exposed.. he just laughed at your marriage.. nothing you say is going to inspire him or scare him.
And yes, you are getting it.. your wife will be angry, she will throw a tantrum, she will call you every name you can think of... My wife threw things, she called me names, she threatened me, she make it quite clear she FELT at the TIME that she wanted NOTHING to DO with me... that was almost two years ago when the affair was at its peak...
She's inviting me to outings now, we have dinner together, she's planting prennials in her backyard garden... She's saying and doing everythign she USED to do BEFORE OM showed his ugly face in my home.
The wife you lost DOES come back Ken, but yes you have to get UGLY and DRIVE the addiction and the OM OUT of your HOME.. she will FIGHT you VISCIOUSLY to keep him in her head and heart... just do what you have to do...
I think your kids are of an age now that you have seen similar resistance in them when they want something and YOU know that its NOT good for them right?
Do your kids agree with you and back off or do they FIGHT YOU and resist?
I know you dont' want to have to parent your wife through this, but while she's addicted she's no better at making healthy decisions for herself than a child.
------------
Your comments about OM to your wife make a lot more diffrence when its sarcasm yes.
I did the same thing to my wife, but I focussed on him attacking our home.
I would say something like
Look at what this man is doing to someone's home... children live here... If I did that to someone's home you would DESPISE me for it.. But HE is doing it to YOUR CHILDREN and YOUR HOME... and you LOVE him for it?
If you care about your home and family here then PROTECT them like I AM and tell him to GO AWAY... He's not a MAN, he's a PREDATOR and TRESPASSING in OUR HOME and THREATENING YOUR FAMILY.. ACT like a MOTHER and SEND HIM AWAY!!!
That may hit home with her.. It worked for me at least... If you keep up your current pressure you will gradually wake her up.. but you cannot BACK DOWN... NEVER BACK DOWN... she is going to threaten to leave, to take the kids, to call lawyers, she will threaten to make your life miserable.
SHe has no leverage Ken.. you just have to belive that she's BLUFFING you and won't follow through... and to be honest as I said it doesn't sound like she CAN... she hasn't even spoken to a lawyer or done any research.. she's too busy on the PHONE with OM...
She will come around Ken.. OM sounds way too flighty and unreliable anyways... once she realizes he isnt' trustworthy she will come crawling back...
Allen, I really like what you said here:
Look at what this man is doing to someone's home... children live here... If I did that to someone's home you would DESPISE me for it.. But HE is doing it to YOUR CHILDREN and YOUR HOME... and you LOVE him for it?
If you care about your home and family here then PROTECT them like I AM and tell him to GO AWAY... He's not a MAN, he's a PREDATOR and TRESPASSING in OUR HOME and THREATENING YOUR FAMILY.. ACT like a MOTHER and SEND HIM AWAY!!!
I feel like I am making great headway now even though my wife is still being very negative with me and constantly bringing up the past that she can't get over (before OM came along - About how I was controlling, critical of her, and didn't seem to really love her even though I did.)
She says she is waiting for her next paycheck and then she will get an apartment. All the trouble I had trying to get her to leave, and now that the OM is out of the picture, she wants to leave on her own. Go figure!
But if she does leave, I know that I have to just let her go and go into NC mode. I'm planning to review the DB book this evening for how to act now that I seem to be entering a new phase of this situation.
Ken. OM is NOT gone. I would bet my home on it.
Do NOT be so naieve as to think he's given up on her... he's a predator Ken he KNOWS she's vulnerable.. He is NOT going to walk away... He may be frustrated and he may realize teh degree of RISK he's taking on now that you are fighting back finally, BUT, I wager he's still going to try again, even if its your wife that makes the call.
Do NOT be so sure your wife is going to leave... she gets a paycheque and then what? Reality starts to hit her...
Small apartment, uncertain future, part time mother, public embarassment because presumably you have exposed her affair well to protect YOUR reputation...
Do NOT listen to ANYof the complaints she has right now or take them to heart.. you seem to be concerned about them.. don't be... we have ALL HEARD THAT GARBAGE... Once the addiction is gone then won't even remember half of what they said to you... Its just going to be a bad dream they wish they could forget...
Protection Phase Ken... Read Penny Tupy's eBook, that's the best advice you can get right now... OM is still in the picture, don't be so confident that he's gone now... He just wanted to put you at ease and less vigilant.
There are many people on this forum who were confident the affair was over only to realize a year or even MORe later that its started up again...
Do NOT rest on your laurels or get confident yet... you have JUST STARTED to FIGHT BACK in the last few weeks.. Race isn't over yet Ken... Stakes are just higher now...
Do everything you can according to the law to protect your kids from your wife right now, she is NOT fit to care for them while she's addicted to this OM.
She may leave to try to make a point, but YOU have to be STRONG and stay put and stay back.. as long as you and your kids are safe, she has to grow up on her own... She moves out its like a time out for a child... do NOT accept any contact or initiate any... IGNORE her as long as your kids are with you and safe.
She does NOT EXIST.
If she tries to negotiate to stay... Tell her the deal is the same...
1. She goes into family therapy for minimum of ONE YEAR and follows the guidance of the FT
2. No contact with OM
3. Full Transparency of all communication outlets without complaint or resistance
4. She puts 100% into the marriage
5. No sex for either of you for at least six months..
The last one is for her confidence... if you pressure her for anything physical right now she would react as if she's being raped.. her head is FULL of OM.. that's all she sees in her head right now...
NEITHER of you initiates anything physical until you BOTH are comfortable with it... And I suspect it will be over a year given how long this has been going on unchecked.
That is the deal Ken, if she does NOT accept that, then leave her in her apartment to stew and grow up... it's a time out.. she has to do it or accept the alternate agreement laid out above 1 - 5.
a. She is out in a time out in her own apartment ALONE
b. She agrees to a marriage rebuilding effort laid out above under the supervision of a FT - laid out above.
Accept anything less and you do damage to your marriage and to your family.
You have to trust that she will get lonely and scared and will want to come home... She did NOT want to leave, you made that clear to all of us.. so TRUST that when she DOES leave she wont' like it and will want to come BACK
IF she DOES get to the point of walking out the door :
I will be honoring my commitment to you as a husband and a father. I will hold you to yours as well. We aren't divorced, I am just protecting our children from this affair until you divorce me and your children or choose to rebuild a broken family and spare these children a lot of pain... Whichever you choose first. They should not be exposed to this affair of yours. If that means you have to leave your children and your home to learn that your commitments transcend how you feel right now then that's a tragedy I will have to stomach. I do love you.
She will likely spit on it, but you need to make it clear that if she walks out that door and goes near OM she is cheating and you do NOT condone it and WILL EXPOSE IT.
I suspect it won't come to this... I think once she realizes the OM isn't stable and you mean business she will change her tune... STICK TO YOUR BASELINE I put above for you.
As far as the OM is concerned, I think he is out of the picture at least for awhile, I don't know. He has asked her not to call him, so we'll see.
My wife now says she wants to leave, but can't because I messed up her credit.
Last night, we were watching Dr. Phil and he said, "You know you're ready for divorce when you no longer have any emotional business with your spouse." And my wife turned to me and said, "I'm ready for divorce." We argued a little about what he meant and she said, "I'm not in love with you." When I suggested she try one more time, she said, "I tried for 11 years!" I reacted and said, "Well then go ahead and get your D! Just leave me alone!" Then she left the room.
Later, I went to her and said, "I already know how you feel about me. I just ask that you not remind me every day, because it hurts to hear it. I am leaving you alone and you can leave me alone."
Ken
1. Do NOT watch Dr Phil with your addict wife, you are just setting yourself up for a fight with her
2. Do NOT ARGUE with an addict
3. Do NOT discuss relationship
4. Do NOT tellher to divorce you
5. Do NOT pursue her for more conversation after the fight is over.
What the hell happened to protection phase man? You are still supposed to go there whether she's in your home or not...
You are just doing DAMAGE here...
OK, I see. I need to do protection phase. That's going to be hard to do with her in the house. She cooks for me and initiates conversations with me to.
And below is the FULL ARTICLE on the Dr Phil website re being ready for divorce. Your wife has blown it in the very first LINE. Tell your wife to do proper damn research before she decides to mouth off and threaten you :
Are you ready to get divorced? If you’re unhappy and think you’re ready to call it quits, answer the five questions in Dr. Phil's Divorce Readiness Test:
1. Have you done everything you can to save and rehabilitate your marriage?
2. Do you have unfinished emotional business?
3. Have you researched, planned, and prepared yourself legally for divorce?
4. Are you ready to adopt a new standard of conduct with your children?
5. Are you willing to create a new relationship as a co-parent?
Dr. Phil believes most people in America are too quick to get divorced. You shouldn't get a divorce, he says, until you’ve turned over every stone and investigated every avenue of rehabilitation possible; you have no unfinished emotional business; you’ve researched, planned and prepared yourself legally; you’re ready to adopt a new standard of conduct with your children and you’re willing to create a new relationship as a co-parent.
For more on his first two questions, read on:
Have you gotten help for your marriage? Have you exhausted all avenues of putting your marriage back together? That means everything from reading books or going to a marriage counselor, to speaking to a clergy member and spending time focusing on you and your role in what's going on.
You need to ask yourself:
What was your marriage like when it worked?
When did it go wrong? Why?
Is what you're fighting about worth breaking up your marriage?
What do you want?
What is it costing you to be in your relationship?
Are you willing to put in the effort to make the relationship work?
What are you doing to contaminate the relationship?
"You know you're ready for a divorce when you can walk out the door with no anger, frustration or hurt. Otherwise, you've got unfinished business," says Dr. Phil. "Unless and until you look each other in the eye feeling peace, no hatred or resentment, you're not ready to get a divorce."
Do not make life-changing decisions in the midst of emotional turmoil. Such consequential decisions should not be made when tensions are high. Get on flat ground first so you can look at things more rationally.
Ask yourself:
Are you still in love with your spouse?
Are you hurt?
Are you scared?
Are you angry?
Are you confused?
If you answered yes to any of those questions, you've failed the test. This is not the time to make life-changing decisions. You have more work to do
Wow! That's awesome - thanks. Should I email that to my wife?
OK, I see. I need to do protection phase. That's going to be hard to do with her in the house. She cooks for me and initiates conversations with me to.
Walk away, show her you aren't interested in hearing it... Read OfficerInNeed's thread... OIN's wife lives with him and is fantasizing about OM. She baits the guy into fights on a daily basis... He has trouble controlling himself too.
You need to back off your wife and let her BREATHE.. you are a NOTORIOUS PURSUER ken.. you've been doing it for months.... You think because OM [i]says[i] he's gone you can just start working on your marriage and talking to your wife like nothing's happened?
She's antagonistic
SHe's defensive
She's got zero impulse control
She's miserable
She's self-Righteous
SHe's beligerent
She's emotinoally unstable
She's dangerous
She's inconsiderate
SHe's neglectful
She needs time to process everything... ASSUMING OM is gone and has CONVINCED HER that he's gone for GOOD... Which I doubt he's done. He likley just told her she had to wait a few months for him to get properly setup to support her.
Don't be a fool.
You turn on Dr Phil and you are headed for trouble right now. Your wife is NOT ready to WORK on your marriage yet... So ANYTHING she HEARS she is going to TWIST into an ATTACK on YOU to PROVE that YOU can't CONTROL YOURSELF.
Got it?
She's TESTING YOUR SELF-CONTROL right now... I know she has none of her own, but she's going to be testing yours... she's going to BAIT you itno a fight... She's stressed out and YOU are the nearest Punching bag.
I suspect she was doing this to OM as well, which may be why he took off.. If he did really leave.
Your wife picks on people when she gets stressed out.. she attacks them verbally.. Its' quite commnon reaction to stress...
Stay away from Dr Phil. Watch FUN LIGHTHEARTED FAMILY COMEDY... do NOT force relationship talk on her and watching Dr Phil is gonna drive her to that place and YOU TWO are gonna FIGHT.
She needs time to PROCESS her situation.
PS : Cook your own damn meals... don't let her do ANYTHING for you service-wise. SHOW her you are independent and don't NEED her. She's way too full of herself right now.. she's due for some humbling.
A quick question: This may be a trivial matter, but do you think I should go up to my wife and say "Hi" to her whenever I get home from work or is that pursual too? I usually do, but today I didn't. Not sure it even matters, really.
Any time you try to exchange emotion with her, its pursuit right now.. LEAVE HER ALONE
Think Mr Spock.
Would he go say hi to his wife?
Steer clear until her tantrum is over.
It's interesting, you and OIN both have wives in almost the exact same situation.
Both OM are distancing themselves, WS wives don't like it and are pissed off... Both are threatening to leave you guys...
My advice is the same for both.. Steer clear and let these women grow up... reality is setting in.. it takes time.. dont' volunteer to be theri punching bag.
PS : Ken, say hi to your kids, pets, plants, EVERYTHING EXCEPT your WIFE.
Wow! That's awesome - thanks. Should I email that to my wife?
NO.. she does NOT want to hear your advice man... She needs time to GROW UP... She is NOT going to listen to reason, I told you that.
Once she realizes that OM is NOT her future and has had say three months to get OM out of her system, maybe six... THEN she will learn from that article.. NOT BEFORE
Wow! That's awesome - thanks. Should I email that to my wife?
If your wife brings up that TV show again using Dr Phil to justify her position
You need to go to Dr Phil's website and do proper research like I have... You have no idea what you are talking about... He would call you foolish right now
And you WALK AWAY.
You LEAVE your WIFE to do her OWN RESEARCH.. its how she LEARNS and GROWS UP.. do NOT DO HER HOMEWORK FOR HER KEN
Ken- I know it's tough b/c you are thinking rationally...Allen is right, do not e-mail that to her, and do not watch Dr. Phil, or even discuss M issues or how to overcome them.
It sucks- this person is slipping out of your hands and life...BUT- life grasping sand, the harder you squeeze, the more you lose.
In the end it is her loss Ken, you are a good man. I am not trying to be negative...it's just that you (we) cannot make choices for our WS...we can set scenes subtly or create new and better memories, but it's their journey to make, just as LBS's journey is to just become better and better, and to not repeat past mistakes.
You can teach or persuade all you want- but to the WS YOU (WE) are the last person on earth they would EVER listen to.
I know it's tough...I'm there too, I, moments ago, let W know this is no longer month 1 (but rather month 9), that I am not interested in limiting myself, that I know what i want...
none of this will help my M- all it does is make her want off the phone...
My difference is, I am ready to file...I am being honest but not threatening...
Even still- as PUP or Robx or others would say...when you're to that point, you don't need to warn or caution...you just do.
Hang in there...my best advice- aside from don't do anything that I've done in my own sitch...is to look as your sitch as though it were happening to someone else...
BEST
Well Allen, you're batting 1000. The OM is back just as you predicted. After calling me at my work three days ago and telling me that he would not be calling W again and he had asked her not to call him, he called her on her cell phone today and she answered. I am beyond frustrated.
I figure I have three options for how to respond to this:
OPTION 1: Call the OM and ask him how he's doing on keeping his word.
OPTION 2: Tell W about him calling me at work and making those empty promises so that she can see yet again that he is a liar.
OPTION 3: Ignore it.
Or of course, a combination of Options 1 and 2.
I also noticed that W did a search on how to open a bank account. Perhaps I should get back into figuring out how to do the Temporary Separation Order. What do you think?
As Allen has pegged, I think OM is full of $hit. He's been playing his wife -- and you -- throughout this whole thing. As disappointed as I am with your wife, at least she was a little more honest about things.
Puppy
What got the affair into a big thunderstorm last time?
There was some drama that you created somehow that got him calling you and him calling her and her angry with him wasn't there?
If you know how to stir up that pot and make this affair a huge pain in the arse for those two you DO IT.
You forgot option 4 - Call OM, tell him he's an ass and to stop attacking your children and hang up.
Oh Ken?
Lock up your finances... you may come home one day to your wife gone and yoru bank account drained.
Change all yoru passwords, move all funds save a small amount for emergencies into accounts your wife cannot access.
Oh Ken?
Lock up your finances... you may come home one day to your wife gone and yoru bank account drained.
Change all yoru passwords, move all funds save a small amount for emergencies into accounts your wife cannot access.
LONG overdue, in fact.
Puppy
After calling me at my work three days ago and telling me that he would not be calling W again and he had asked her not to call him, he called her on her cell phone today and she answered. I am beyond frustrated.
I figure I have three options for how to respond to this:
OPTION 1: Call the OM and ask him how he's doing on keeping his word.
OPTION 2: Tell W about him calling me at work and making those empty promises so that she can see yet again that he is a liar.
OPTION 3: Ignore it.
Ken, this is a replay of what happen way over a year ago! You keep doing the same thing over & over. You've been given the same advice over & over, but until you decide to get some b@lls and man-up to your W, this history is not going to change.
The thing is Ken.. watch this :
a. OM tells YOU he's not going to call your wife
b. OM calls your wife
result
c. YOU take offence and feel violated
d. your WIFE feels FLATTERED that OM can't stop CALLING HER
You telling your wife that OM called after promising NOT to does NOT prove he's a LIAR to HER.. to HER she considers it a TESTAMENT to his "DEVOTION" to her...
Think Romeo and Julliet here...
a. Parents tell the two not to see each other
b. Both cry like children and admit defeat to the parents
c. They contact each other in secret again
d. Devotion to one another is again reknewed, both flattered that the other MISSED the other
It doens't prove he's a liar to your WIFE, Ken, just to everyone "In the KNOW" about the facts of infidelity...
We know BOTH sides of the drama, THEY just feel their own side.. SELFISHLY ignoring the damage they are doing.
I haven't responded yet to my discovery of the phone call. It seems like every time I talk to the OM, it fuels his fire. I think my wife is actually trying to get him to back off for awhile. I don't think they communicated yesterday or today.
My wife did an internet search for "is it possible to have a happy marriage?" today, so I take that as a good sign. She has been sleeping on the sofa, but I just leave her alone unless she talks to me, then I just answer her briefly. I play often with my kids - they help to keep my spirits up.
I'm waiting to see W's next move to decide whether or not I need to try again doing a temporary separation order. Her name is on the deed, Sandi, and she has not been willing to leave, so it's not really a simple matter of setting her bags out. I'm sure she would just bring them back in and just be madder than a wet hen.
I'm waiting to see W's next move . . .
Yeah, that's pretty much what you've been doing throughout, Ken. How's that workin' out for ya???
Puppy
I know. I remember you saying that the first time I suggested it. But, you'd make a point in trying to get her out. As it has been said, you need to show her you are not just going to lay back as if to say "It's okay, honey, go on and have an A and I will be here if you ever decide to be a wife again".
You've always pointed out that she would get mad. So what? Let her get mad.....in fact, if she's going to get mad....give her something to get mad about. I've read where she got plenty mad at you for doing nothing.....so make it worth something.
I also remember another time you thinking that she would discourage OM to back off. Don't you see the games they play with you? Don't you see how this is going around and around? I thought there at one time you might actually carry though with what Allen was coaching, but then you have second thoughts and back down. You convince yourself that OM will stop calling W, or that maybe she'll back away.....and then everything is repeated again.
I don't know how much longer this merry-go-round will continue before she either loses any hopes at ever respecting you again, or you lose any hope of loving her.
Ken,
Do you see how YOU are creating the drama that is feeding this Affair?
You are destroying yourself! You must stop this.
You are not facing your fear. What are you afraid of? So what if she leaves. You have already lost her. Could your life get any worse? Will you be ok, emotionally? financially? Will you be alone forever? WHat are you really afraid of? Face it and realize anything is better than your current sitch. Then I think you will be able to act and save your marriage.
OK then, let's take a vote:
Should I get a Temporary Separation Order or should I set her bags out?
What will have the greatest impact?
Ken... my advice?
When you STARTED to play HARD BALL with your wife... That's when OM and your wife's affair got stirred up...
In my opinion the more pressure you put on your wife right now to do both of these :
a. Explore repairing a damaged marriage
b. Separate from her family to pursue life independently
The more she starts to WAKE UP
You said the SEP ORDER was THICK yes?
Ken, if its something you have to work a lot on for weeks and weeks?
Start filling the sucker out...
a. Put it on your desk
b. Leave it in the open
c. Put articles around it about how to repair a marriage - especially about ENDING AFFAIRS as being the FIRST STEP - Peny Tupy's article about the tree is a good one there...
You start to work on that... its going to piss her off and stress her out...
She will see a clock is ticking... You fill that sucker out.
a. Don't cook her meals
b. Don't do her laundry
c. Don't do anything for her
Keep the pressure on her... You CAN get her OUT of your HOME if you wanted to... We gave you tons of examples of how to make life there not worth it...
My favourite is to invite others to your home that she won't like.. It will mirror what SHE'S doing.
Start looking for someone to handle child care... put articles about for "How to evaluate day care services" etc
Your wife needs to see you are preparing to oust her.
She doesn't want to leave the security of your home... So you will yes have to drive her away... But it CAN be done.
I think stirring the pot over the affair will take a lot of the excitement out of it, it seems to have done that earlier.
I just think you need to put a time clock on this sucker Ken so your wife takes you seriously...
Do NOT NEGOTIATE DEALS with her.. It just makes you look weak
If she wants to save the marriage contact is OVER.. no six months and then she can call him again or any of that crap.
She has to agree to end contact and put 100% into repairing the marriage.. PERIOD...
Thanks Allen. That's just what I needed. I am plan to do just as you suggested there. I have to be careful how I do it though, because the last time I left two articles on my desk, she said I was trying to manipulate her.
the last time I left two articles on my desk, she said I was trying to manipulate her.
Well, then, how about the bathroom? the floor next to your bed? where do you read?? And so what if she SAYS you are trying to manipulate her....IGNORE WHAT SHE SAYS right now.
I have to be careful how I do it though, because the last time I left two articles on my desk, she said I was trying to manipulate her.
Ken, you need to decide :
a. Is my wife just lashing out because she's addicted?
b. Or am I making the layout at my desk so obvious a setup?
Put the articles at YOUR DESK... I assume you have a work area at home she doesnt' use.. put them in YOUR AREA.
Then...
WIFE : You're trying to manipulate me
YOU : Right, by leaving MY reading materials at MY desk... I am such a MONSTER... How DARE I?
And WALK AWAY
The fact is Ken your wife is manipulating you too... people who are emotionally attached to one another CAN manipulate one another.. That's why all this crap is so painful.
If my next door neighbour decided to go lie and have sex with someone I couldn't care less...
Your wife is manipulating things too.. So don't take that to heart.. It's just more crap.
But, you want to make the layout at your desk not look so OBVIOUS...
Another Tip Ken... start making phone calls while she's in earshot...
a. Talk about day care, asking around how much people pay for day care and if they are happy with the service
b. Ask about house cleaning services, etc
This is going to add more stress again to your wife.
That's good.
She's going to attack you about it later, trust me.
Your response?
WIFE : You are manipulating me making those calls
YOU : I am not manipulating YOU... I am being responsible and caring for my kids... You should try it some time
or...
WIFE : You are manipulating me making those calls
YOU : And you think you chasing another man isn't manipulative to a household at all? As long as you are cheating on THIS HOME I think I am free to do whatever I want. And what I want to do is care for my family. Now leave me alone to work please.
And again WALK AWAY
WIFE : You are manipulating me making those calls
YOU : I am making alternative arrangements for my children. I need someone here providing day care to my kids and making this home inviting to love in. I need someone who can do that and NOT be making sleazy calls to another man while they are in this house. YOU don't seem to be able to manage that simple task. I can find alternative arrangements that these kids CAN RELY ON.
WALK AWAY
And again your wife is very likley going to say something like
WIFE : I am their mother, they can rely on me
YOU : What they can rely on is their mother lying to their father and breaking their home into pieces... THAT is what YOU are SHOWING them they can RELY on you for right now.
These are examples of what I meant by standing up to her. Why do you care if she says you manipulate her? Remember the time she poured syrup all over you and screamed in your face? It's times like that that you need to "man-up".
Get those S papers completed. Have you tried to hide them? Make no bones about what you're doing. Allen is giving great advice.
Don't fear her anger. You are the head of the home. Put your pants on and show your children how their father will protect them during a time such as this.
UPDATE: I have the paperwork for the Temporary Separation Order, but I haven't started to fill it out yet. I'm planning to start that tonight. I didn't think my wife was still talking to the OM, but I discovered today that she has been and my little one told me that she called him from work and told him "I wish you could come here" and "you're making me cry". I saw on her phone log that she had two conversations with him today.
When she got home, she talked to me about planning our 7 yo daughter's birthday party and wants me to go to the local rec center and pay to reserve the place for a time next week. I wanted to be there to celebrate it, but now I don't know what I should do about that. My wife plans to be there.
Also should I call the OM and confront him? He did tell me a week and a half ago that he would not be calling W and he asked her not to call him. I guess that didn't last.
I would confront. Then tell your W you know she has been contacting him. She will argue saying that she hasn't, etc. Before she goes too far into her tirade.
Hold your hand up and just say, "I know you did and that's that". Then walk away. Don't give her a chance to "explain".
What the heck is OM's wife doing during all this nonsense? Playing golf or something?
Better yet. Tell his W and the church leaders if he is heavily involved with them.
He's already done that Bond... I was just asking for an update on his wife's position...
Originally she was playing softball with her husband trying to negotiate him to work on his marriage and he was just ignoring her...
I am just wondering NOW if his wife's getting any more assertive... I doubt it...
And the church leaders have been contacted, they are timid as well and don't want to stir the pot...
I don't know what the OM's wife is doing. It seems that she has little or no control over what the OM does (if she ever did have). He walks all over her and she lets him.
W seemed in a good mood this evening and I went ahead and went along with her plans for our daughter's birthday party. W has been sleeping on the sofa for about a week and a half now - ever since I threatened her with the TSO.
Just keep up the work Ken... Stay mature, responsible, and respectable... It will win out in the end...
Your wife and OM are being immature, and that rarely wins in the end... Your wife won't stay with someone she can't respect, and long term she won't have respect for this man... Not gonna happen.
Thanks Allen. You have given me a ton of great advice. I will probably need to do some of those things. Like leaving the TSO out and making those phone calls. I just need to time it right.
I believe that things will eventually work out if I just take the high road here. I just would like to speed up the process if it's possible. Some of the things that are suggested here for me to do are not for the faint of heart. I guess that's where I struggle.
There may come a day when you have no fear at all because you just need to keep moving forward even if the consequence is moving on.
Ken, I honeslty can't see her as you write her leaving you and her kids for this man. It's just something she has to hold onto right now. OfficerInNeed's thread is in a similar spot. His wife is clearly not leaving for OM, but she wont' let go of it in her head yet...
You ARE doing it right ... NOW.. it just took you SO DAMN LONG to get up and FIGHT this thing man...
Timing IS important, so yes, take the time to do it right.
Note : Try NOT to RUSH the process. Your wife needs time to shift her attitude and if you PUSH that you can just make a big mess you have to clean up.
My advice is to keep pushing until you see she's in the right direction. Then back off and do everything you can to be inviting and wait for her to come to you.
You will find this is much like dating. There's a lot of subtext at play and you have to learn to work with it and not rush it... This is like dating a woman, you can't rush it or force it... Do everything you can to be inviting and wait for her to come to you.. that's usually a good approach from what I am reading
MWD says in DR patience isn't just important, its ESSENTIAL
Allen A,
he needs to back off of her and have fun with himself, worry about her if she needs it or several times a week. Right now she's not with you, and you can hurt yourself pretty bad. If you back off now, I believe she will see the difference - in that you where responding to her in a caring way and being responsible, and now you are just less available. She will notice this.
She'll have to get over OM, think about a breakup, how long does that take to get over? Probably several months?
Harley says affairs take in the area of 12 weeks for withdrawal to process.
Note : This is NOT a "break up".. its an addiction that she has to withdraw from.. Dont' dignify it as a romantic relationship or a break up to her by word... call a spade a spade and don't dignify it to your wife Ken, it will just make this whole thing take a LOT LONGER to process
OK thanks Allen and DLS. I have been backing off lately and I don't even talk to her much really unless she talks to me. She sleeps on the sofa and I just leave her alone.
I called the OM and asked him, "How are you doing at being a man of your word?" He said, "Huh?" I said, "You know - you told me you would not be calling her and you asked her not to call you?" He said, "Oh yeah, good!" I know he was lying because I know from phone logs that he talked to her yesterday and the day before. Then he told me that he and his wife were moving to California probably in July which may or may not be true depending on whether his wife gets the job she is interviewing for. I just pray that he does and that he doesn't try to maintain contact with W after that. I wanted to confront him more, but I think he was driving with his cell phone because our conversation got static and got cut off. It's probably a good thing, because I wanted to say, "I have a hard time believing that you were once a Christian."
OK thanks Allen and DLS. I have been backing off lately and I don't even talk to her much really unless she talks to me. She sleeps on the sofa and I just leave her alone.
I called the OM and asked him, "How are you doing at being a man of your word?" He said, "Huh?" I said, "You know - you told me you would not be calling her and you asked her not to call you?" He said, "Oh yeah, good!" I know he was lying because I know from phone logs that he talked to her yesterday and the day before. Then he told me that he and his wife were moving to California probably in July which may or may not be true depending on whether his wife gets the job she is interviewing for. I just pray that he does and that he doesn't try to maintain contact with W after that. I wanted to confront him more, but I think he was driving with his cell phone because our conversation got static and got cut off. It's probably a good thing, because I wanted to say, "I have a hard time believing that you were once a Christian."
Make sure you focus on having fun, and your wife will be there if she will be there. Don't worry about the situation, it drags me down when I think about how everything is currently situated and I know it does you. Don't worry about that, have a good time, build or rebuild good and fruitfull relationships and you will be straight.
If you call him just tell him you can tell from his voice he's lying.
I am noticing a lot of LBS' try to factually PROVE infidelity with material evidence... It's pointless.
It is likley just due to our education, we are taught to work with facts and argue our case, be it in the boardroom, medical office, or any other industry really... argue your case.. stick to the facts
When you are dealing with an addict, you just have to tell him
I KNOW.. and then deliver your consequences if you have any leverage...otherwise, there's not much point in calling.
OIN, my advice is to call his wife. I don't expect her to do anything, but I woudl'nt be surprised if it still bothered him. I can't imagine he wouldn't care about that... Most WS' do NOT want you talking to the LBS of the third party... they don't like it...
If he DOES reveal that it is bothering him, you have some leverage... if there is contact, you call his wife.. each time he calls your wife, you call his
Back to my point... you can't argue the case with OM... Just tell him you know he's been contacting her and hit him with the consequences and hang up
Calling him names and suggesting he isn't a christian, seriously, he doesn't care... He thinks this whole thing is a GAME.. he gets an EGO trip from your wife slobbering over him... It's pathetic, but for him its a huge rush of excitement... he gets his ego stroked each time he gets a call or makes a call
Your telling him he's not a christian? He couldn't care less
Find some leverage and use it, or don't waste your time calling him.. UNLESS you CALLING him bothers him, but it doens't seem to bother him at all...
Don't be coy, if you call, tell him you know and hit him with conseuences or don't call... If you call and don't tell him why and ask him if he's keeping his word, he just takes you for a coward... He's been hitting on your wife... If you call him and ask him if he's been keeping his word he just thinks you are funny... A funny little man he can walk on because his wife dreams about him... Dont cater to that... hit him with leverage if you have it or don't waste your time
I have mostly been leaving W alone lately, just because I don't want to come across as "pursuing", based on the advice I have learned from on here. But as I was getting ready to leave with the kids for church this morning, I was running late and the OM called my wife's cell phone as he does every week thinking I was already gone. My wife was busy helping the kids get ready and I tried to call him back to say, "How can I help you?" and "How are you doing on keeping your word?" and confront him about his lying, but I just got a busy signal.
This evening, I decided to GAL a bit and took one of my kids to a park. When I returned, my older D came out to tell me that while I was gone, W spoke for awhile to OM on the phone. I went in to make my younger one some dinner and W noticed that I probably looked a bit distraught and asked me "What?" I said, "Nothing. I don't have anything to say - maybe next week." She kept probing me for what I had to say, but I stuck to "Ask me next week." (I'm thinking after my D's birthday party.) She said, "If it's about my future, I need to know about it." But I just left the room.
I'm thinking I need to get that TSO filled out and I probably need to actually go through with it as much as I don't want to.
You just made some impact Ken... Did you see it?
You withdrew and your WIFE got WORRIED and SHE was PURSUING... SEE that?
The more distant YOU get the more WORRIED SHE GETS...
So yes, TSO fill out... and do what you can so she KNOWS you are filling it out...
WHen she does confront you about it THEN you hit her with the fact that she's still keeping contact with OM
And don't phone him asking him "how you doin keeping your word?"
It just sounds corny...
I went in to make my younger one some dinner and W noticed that I probably looked a bit distraught and asked me "What?" I said, "Nothing. I don't have anything to say - maybe next week." She kept probing me for what I had to say, but I stuck to "Ask me next week." (I'm thinking after my D's birthday party.) She said, "If it's about my future, I need to know about it." But I just left the room.
It's not your job to make her feel good about her poor decisions, and deceit.
Puppy
Yup... Ken just keep doin the TSO... You want to send a clear message to her with your actions that you know she's in contact and you are ACTING on it, you aren't threatening her, negotiating, begging, or pursuing her anymore... She breaks the house up, you ACT to protect it...
She will learn there are consequences for her behaviuor... She will confront you about the TSO, just tell her the same thing as before...
You are protecting your family
The affair is hurting everyone in this house
End the affair and participate in therapy
Until the affair is over you just leave in order to protect these children
that is a clear simple message she needs to hear REPETITIVELY and CONSISTENTLY from you when she challenges you... Do not just walk up to her and say this.. wait for her to ask why you are filling out the TSO and then you hit her with the reality script above
And its ironic that she is asking you to be honest about things that affect her... When your wife reciprocates fairly then she's entitled to know what you are doing...
Right now you are just shutting her out.. GOOD... She needs to learn that when you cheat, you are OUT of the LOOP and you don't get back in until you clean up your mess
Thanks Allen and Puppy. These things are hard to do and counterintuitive, but I'm slowly doing them. I just hope it makes an impact on her soon.
You don't think taking a hard stand has done any damage to the affair at all?
I certainly get the impression it has... You have your wife worried finally.. that's a good sign...
Actually, yes, I do think I have done some damage to the affair through exposure, getting a protective order that says OM cannot come to my house, and laying it on the line a couple of weeks ago with the TSO papers. I think these are the things that have helped my sitch the most. I don't think W and OM have been trying to get together lately, just talking on the phone in spite of promises not to. I think that I have managed to take much of the romance out of it too. I would also say that this board is mostly what inspired me to do those things.
OK, so now you know how to do damage to the affair, do more of it... Just keep up the pace and keep pushing your wife.. don't let their secret run overlong... I would call OM and tell him to knock it off.. dont ask him if he's keeping is word, just tell him to get lost and you aren't an idiot.
He thinks you trust him and that he has you fooled... call him up again and talk to his wife, put some pressure on his end again... Don't let them play this secret phone game... call them on it
OK thanks. I'll do that.
They talked on the phone again this morning. My wife goes into the bathroom and locks the door to talk to him on her cell phone. I can easily unlock it if I want. Should I go in and interrupt their call when that happens? That would not be a pretty scene.
Lay a boundary, Ken. "No calling your boyfriend from inside our marital home. It's incredibly disrespectful to me and to our marriage. If you can't control yourself, then take it outside."
This is what I told my wife, and she did obey the boundary. She'd even stand outside IN THE RAIN, talking to him on her cellphone, but at least she wasn't doing it from inside our home.
Who pays for her cellphone again?
Puppy
Dont' use the word boyfriend though...
I would say
"If you want to have an affair with another woman's husband you do it OUTSIDE our home and NOT EXPOSE that to our kids"
I dunno... something like that... I don't like the idea of even setting that boundary because it sounds like validation that you accept the affair.
I would call OM's wife up and tell her he's calling your wife... Keep calling his wife... I woudln't be surprised if OM didn't like that...
She's working and paying for it and OM often reimburses her for the expense. I'll try setting that boundary - thanks.
Tell his WIFE that OM is paying for your wife's cell phone bills Ken... Even if she doesnt DO anything at least show OM that YOU can violate HIS home if he violates yours... It MAY bother him.. who knows... any idea?
Good idea.
Well I set the boundary about calling from inside our home. I said, "You need to stop calling So-and-so from inside our home...it's incredibly disrespectful to me and the kids." And she said, "OK." I also said, "And that is not giving you permission, it's a boundary."
She left to go to work (and who knows where else). I'm going to call the OM now.
Dont' use the word boyfriend though...
I would say
"If you want to have an affair with another woman's husband . . .
Even better.
Puppy
YOu could also add Ken that
"It's incredibly disrespectful to HIS WIFE and HIS KIDS.."
Well I spend Memorial Day having fun with the kids. I took them hiking and to a water park. It would have been nice to have W join us, but she is in her own world right now. I know she loves to go places; she just doesn't want to go with me right now. So I continue to leave her alone.
That's good Ken, give her a taste of divorce... It will bother her... You have to trust your kids on that..
I hope you're right. The strange thing is, it doesn't seem to bother her. I come home after several hours with the kids and she is happily watching TV. When I put the kids to bed, she says goodnight to them but not to me. I feel like she is so heartless towards me these days, except that she does cook and clean.
Tomorrow I will go to my 7 yo daughter's birthday party with her and then I plan to work on that TSO. It's been a year now and I'm so frustrated. I'm starting to wonder if this marriage is possible to save. She has told me that she is just not in love with me. She doesn't have a problem with my looks; she is just not attracted to my personality. I wish she'd at least be willing to go to counseling or something, but she's not. She has told me repeatedly, "I tried for 11 years!" referring of course to the 11 years up until OM came along, because we have now been married for 12 years.
Ken, we all heard this : It's crap.
Once a spouse starts an affair they throw EVERY EXCUSE they can dream up to JUSTIFY LEAVING and RUNNING AWAY from their PROBLEMS with some OTHER MAN
They buy the cart first, then they start digging up horses to put in front of it.
The excuses however are very common :
1. I am not in love with you
2. I am not attracted to you
3. I tried and it didn't work
Well guess what? This is how a woman will feel who has went outside her marriage to have her emotional needs met
Let me repeat that
Women who go outside their marriage to have their emotional needs met cannot feel attachment to their husband
The problem is, there are two solutions :
a. Abandon my family and run off with the OM meeting my needs currently
b. End my affair and work with my spouse to have him meet my emotional needs again
A is obviously an escapist fantasy that rarely if every works long term (less than 1% according to Phil McGraw)
B is the tried and true method advocated by most marriage therapists...
YOU Ken. YOUR JOB is to NOT get INTIMIDATED by your wife's LAME-ASS and TRANSPARENT EXCUSES to avoid B. GOT IT?
The excuses however are very common :
1. I am not in love with you
2. I am not attracted to you
3. I tried and it didn't work
Well guess what? This is how a woman will feel who has went outside her marriage to have her emotional needs met
Let me repeat that
Women who go outside their marriage to have their emotional needs met cannot feel attachment to their husband
Beautifully said. And how many times have we read this type of description here?
The excuses however are very common :
1. I am not in love with you
2. I am not attracted to you
3. I tried and it didn't work
Well guess what? This is how a woman will feel who has went outside her marriage to have her emotional needs met
Let me repeat that
Women who go outside their marriage to have their emotional needs met cannot feel attachment to their husband
Beautifully said. And how many times have we read this type of description here?
Puppy
I was reading books to my kids on the sofa and my wife asked us to move to another location so she could go to sleep (on the sofa).
I asked her, "Why don't you go sleep in the bed? So why is it again that you don't sleep in the bed?"
And she answered, "Because I don't want to."
I asked, "So do you have a plan for the future."
She said, "I don't have one."
I said, "Well, I do have a plan."
She wanted to know what it is,and I said,
"I'm not ready to tell you yet. Maybe later this week."
She asked, "Do you want me to come up with a plan?"
And I said, "Yes, I wish you would!"
Then I thought later that I should also tell her, " Your plan needs to involve me or him, but not both" but she was asleep, so maybe if it comes up again, I think will tell her that. In the meantime, I will work on the TSO.
I asked, "So do you have a plan for the future."
She said, "I don't have one."
I said, "Well, I do have a plan."
She wanted to know what it is,and I said,
"I'm not ready to tell you yet. Maybe later this week."
She asked, "Do you want me to come up with a plan?"
And I said, "Yes, I wish you would!"
Ken, I have a very simple question for you:
Why do you want to leave the planning for the potential endgame of your marriage -- and your intact family -- in the hands of someone who doesn't have its best interests at heart right now??? Think about that.
Puppy
Good one pup
Also, KEN, this is NOT about your wife choosing
OM
YOU
That is NOT the idea you want to convey
This is a choice between
Destroying your family with an ugly divorce
Reconciling and exploring rebuilding the marriage
THAT is the choice you are pushing and the one you want her to make... do NOT make this a choice between TWO MEN.. that makes the OM on EQUAL FOOTING to YOU.. he is NOT an equal here, YOU are the husband and family protector, the OM is a PREDATOR... Do NOT ROMANTICIZE this nonsense by telling her to choose between TWO MEN
She's choosing
HURTING A FAMILY
HEALING A FAMILY
That is the choice youw ant to present her with... ok?
UPDATE: I went to church with my kids this morning and when I got back, W was not home. I was pretty sure she met up with the OM but I didn't say much. I was just about to go to a national park with the kids and she came home. They wanted her to go too and I said, "You're invited if you want to come." So she came.
While we drove, she said, "When we get a divorce, can still I come with you guys on trips?" I laughed and said, "That's not happening; I can't do that. You have to choose between helping your family and hurting your family; between destroying your family and reconciling your family."
Later as we drove I was telling her about a female coworker of mine who offered to give us a plane ride. She said, "Is she single?" I said, "No." She said, "Shoot!" as if to say, "Oh, too bad, because otherwise you could hook up with her." I said sarcastically, "Oh, but being married doesn't matter, does it?" (I said this because the OM is married.) And I said, "And she has kids, but that doesn't matter either." (I said this because OM also has kids.)
When we got back home, I was planning on taking the kids out again and she was trying to figure out how she would handle a time conflict at her work and she said about her boss, "I already gave her my word." And I said, "So all of a sudden you want to be a person of your word." And she said, "Can you please hurry up and leave?" So we left again for awhile. Now she is sitting outside in deep thought.
YOu are doing great here Ken
Allen and Ken,
Sorry to step on Kens thread but I need some help with a question I asked yesterday about moving back into my house.
Ken and I have a very similar sitch with our WAW.
My wife went out "shopping" today and I took the kids out to eat. When I got back, I noticed she had been talking to the OM on the phone and she stayed gone for two and a half hours when she said she would be back in 20 minutes to help take care of the kids.
When she finally came back, I was working on filling out the temporary separation order, but that didn't even phase her. She just sat down to watch TV. I asked her if she had a place to go if she had to leave and she said, "I can't believe you're kicking me out when [OM] is moving in a month." I said, "I don't know that for sure."
I probably should explain a little more how things went down. The original plan was that I was going to take the older daughter out to shop and eat and she was going to take the younger one. But the younger one protested strongly, saying, "I want Daddy! I want Daddy!" So we decided that I would take them both out to eat and then she could take the younger one since I like to spend one-on-one time with each kid every other week and today was the older ones day to be with Daddy. But I ended up taking both of them while she went shopping. While I was at a restaurant eating with the kids, she called me on my cell phone to ask if we were still eating because she would take another 20 minutes. But when we got home, she was gone and I noticed by the phone logs that she had just been here and had just left and remained gone for another 2 and a half hours. When she got back, I was filling out the TSO, but she didn't seem to care at all and went to watch TV. But she did say, "I can't believe you're kicking me out when [OM] is moving in a month." Not sure what else to do now. I feel like I'm in limbo.
Just keep going Ken, she doens't want to leave, that's a good thing... you have to push her out of the open marriage setup she's steered you into...
No more pleasant choice a, your wife now has to choose b or c remember?
Just keep pushing her in those directions.
The other thing you could have said when she protested about you "kicking her out" is
a. I am not kicking you out, YOU are choosing to destroy a marriage rather than to rebuild one
b. I need someone who I can rely on as a parent and partner... YOU were supposed to help with these kids, but you were too busy on the phone with OM instead... You're a crap mother
And I said this to her:
I am not kicking you out, YOU are choosing to destroy a marriage rather than to rebuild one
But she thinks that I am the one who is destroying the marriage.
She asked me how we are going to pay for an apartment for her and I said, "That's your problem and to ask the OM to pay for it. If he really cares, he will pay for it."
Time for the Big-Girl Panties . . .right Greek?
Puppy
And I said this to her:
I am not kicking you out, YOU are choosing to destroy a marriage rather than to rebuild one
But she thinks that I am the one who is destroying the marriage.
She asked me how we are going to pay for an apartment for her and I said, "That's your problem and to ask the OM to pay for it. If he really cares, he will pay for it."
I do like that answer. You can also tell her, "Look, when you are my wife, fully involved and fully committed to our marriage, then you will find ME fully committed to protecting you in every possible way -- emotionally, spiritually, and financially. But when you break your vows and profess your plan to leave the marriage, I'm not going to help you financially leave us, unless a court orders me to do so. If you want to leave us and set up a place of your own, I'm certainly not going to use our family's limited finances to help you do it."
Puppy
Good one pup!
She asked me how we are going to pay for an apartment for her and I said, "That's your problem and to ask the OM to pay for it. If he really cares, he will pay for it."
Oh my gosh! I am soooo proud of you, Ken! I really like your answer. I nearly spewed my coffee out when I read the part about how "we" are going to pay.
I think its an OK answer, I dunno about giving her hope for OM... if he DOES pay it just reinforces everything...
Yes I know, if he doesn't it will just do the opposite and wake her up more... its a dice roll... lets hope luck's with you here Ken...
I would be VERY tempted to let OMW know of this possibility, or that you have suggested it. I doubt OM will pay, but definitely not if he is moving away in a few months or if his W knows!
Doesn't he have another apartment or something somewhere anyway??
WhatNow OM's wife doen'st CARE... she is timid and useless... she's doing all the wrong things - pursuit, ignoring the affair, etc... she has proven to be of no help through any of this...
She's gotta have a line somewhere!!! Jeesh Hey Ken...Suggest she move in with the two of them!!
The original plan was that I was going to take the older daughter out to shop and eat and she was going to take the younger one. But the younger one protested strongly, saying, "I want Daddy! I want Daddy!" So we decided that I would take them both out to eat and then she could take the younger one since I like to spend one-on-one time with each kid every other week and today was the older ones day to be with Daddy. But I ended up taking both of them while she went shopping.
BIG pat on the back Ken! What a great Dad you are!
My husband has NEVER:
1. Taken ANY of my 3 kids shopping
2. Taken them out to dinner or even through a drive thru
3. Done a weekly grocery run (not in 23 years)
He has taken each of the 3 to a movie by themselves, but only because he wanted to see the movie too.
Hats off to you for being such a good father! Your wife has NO CLUE what a jewel you are.
This may be considered pursuit, but I told W she was welcome to sleep in the bed if she wanted to and I would leave her alone (like I mostly have been for months now), but I didn't press the issue. After being rejected (again) I left the room and went to the bedroom so sit and I had tears in my eyes. Then she came in to talk and said, "I don't understand why you want to stay married to me. A couple of days ago, you were trying to kick me out." (I was filling out the TSO a couple of days ago.) Then she went off on my past mistakes again - how I didn't seem happy with her, how I was controlling, etc. I didn't argue with her - I just said, "I understand.".
She also told me that she and the OM agreed a few days ago to break off communication. (for like the fifth time - yea right). I said then we should change her cell number to avoid contact, and she started making excuses for why she can't do that. The OM is supposed to move in a month or so. My fear is that they will maintain contact after he leaves.
If she doesn't change her cellphone and e-mail, and become fully transparent with you, you can count on it.
Puppy
This may be considered pursuit, but I told W she was welcome to sleep in the bed if she wanted to and I would leave her alone (like I mostly have been for months now), but I didn't press the issue.
KNOCK OFF THE PURSUIT KEN!
YOU KNOW that's PURSUIT... KNOCK IT OFF, you are just DRIVING Her AWAY trying to get some you damn fool!
KNOCK IT OFF, you are just DRIVING Her AWAY trying to get some you damn fool!
I'm sorry, but...LOL!
The things men say to each other just totally crack me up sometimes!
Sorry Red, but seriously, inviting your wayward and affair engaged wife to your bed isn't considered pursuit?
Heck Ken, even I can smell that one literally from miles away.. stop chasing her... This is DBusting 101 stuff you should know by now...
While your wife is wayward she does NOT want to be NEAR you and when you push for that you just ANTAGONIZE her.. attacking the affair and speaking up for your family she can respect, but trying to get some in the process kinda takes all that respect away...
Seriously...
Just chuckling at the words, Allen. I TOTALLY agree with you.
I thought after WH moved to the basement 8 weeks ago that he'd be back in our room within 2 weeks. He wasn't.
So, I did a SERIOUS 180 - stopped calling, stopped texting, made him make his own coffee, do his own laundry, stopped holding dinner for him, etc.
At first, he was delighted I'd stopped the pursuit (although he wasn't wild about doing his own laundry!). Now that OW has proven she can't hold up her end of the fantasy, things are starting to turn around.
We haven't reconciled yet, but there ARE signs of pursuit from HIM (it's like I'm in 8th grade again with all the times he's "accidentally" brushed up against me. LOL!). He's clearly confused, and I get the impression he'd like to resume a physical relationship with me, but he's not sure how to go about it without actually admitting he was (gasp!) wrong. Alas, the male ego...
He'll get no encouragement from me.
I haven't been chased in a very long time, and am finding some amusement among the heartache. Let's see just how rusty his skill are...LOL!
Keep it up SR... Detachment works better than anything else I have seen or read about here... Once they realize you aren't in their pocket anymore they have to come looking for you.. marriage is as much a drug as infidelity is, but its a HEALTHY one!
Make him chase you... Make him work for it, or it wont' last...
I'll believe it when I see it!
For now, I'm going on faith. Thanks, Allen!
EXCELLENT post, Allen. Thanks!
It's like telling your children to sit up straight and chew with your mouth closed - sometimes it has to be repeated again and again in order to sink in...
Thanks again!
Yesterday evening when I got home, W told me she was going to look at an apartment in the morning. I said, "I'm sorry to hear that." I said, "I just want you to know I'm gonna miss you if you go."
Later in the evening, she asked me, "What will you do if I stay and try to work things out with you?" I said, "I would make sure we spend quality time together and do fun things together."
Later, I was reading my 7 yo daughter's school journal (she writes funny stuff and mispells words in a funny way) and W was reading it with me and laughing with me.
Not sure what she's going to do, but if she leaves, I guess that saves me from filling out the TSO.
No you still want to get a sep agreement in place to LIMIT her access... she needs rules and BOUNDARIES ken... that needs in place by LAW to hit home with her...
I don't know if telling her you will miss her is a good idea, its just more pursuit dude...
She needs to know she doen'st have CONTROL over you anymore man... and every time you pursue you show her she has you wrapped around her finger... she can smell the fear in you a mile away...
Good job overall though, you do have her thinking twice...
My wife wants me to take our two daughters to the OM's son's birthday party. And he may be there - I can't believe this. Not too sure what to do. I can refuse, but then she will go. What a dilema.
Now it looks like she will be taking them to the birthday party. I told her yesterday that it's not necessary for our kids to go to that birthday party, but oh well, what else can I do?
Refuse Ken.. refuse... If she goes tell her she's choosing OM over her own children and the lawyer will hear about it.
Then walk away.
Ken, This is soooo inappropriate!! You can't stop her, but take your kids elsewhere!!! How dare she continue to use your children!!
What do you mean what can you do?
You tell her NO Ken... or you go and when you get there you tell her that you are BOTH leaving RIGHT NOW with these children or you are goin gto tell EVERYONE In the ROOM she's having an affair with that man right in public
Tell her if she wants to be humiliated in public you are more than happy to do it... Don't WARN HER... tell her no you don't want any of your family there..
If she insists you go along to and suddenly make a scene exposing her affair to everyone in the room.. do it and she will be ashamed of herself and it will resonate for weeks... do it Ken
Find your balls Ken, this is the time to use them.
Didn't get your message in time. But WOW! What an interesting idea. I'm sure W would leave me if I did that. I think she'd have a very hard time forgiving me too.
She took them to the birthday party and dropped them off with OM and OMW and went shopping for awhile. Then she went to pick them up.
Why is she doing this again?
It was my understanding she agreed to stop contacting them?
WTF?
She took them to the birthday party and dropped them off with OM and OMW and went shopping for awhile. Then she went to pick them up.
That is bizarre! It is right up there with my H asking to have OW move in!
It IS bizarre but part of the addiction, I'm afraid.
Before I realized there was something going on, my WH had OW pet sit once (we were on vacation) and babysit once. I later learned he sent her Victoria's Secret stuff in thanks each time, which she accepted. I threw up when I saw the invoices. She hasn't been in our house since.
Ken, I'm with Allen. Put a stop to this NOW. No contact means NO CONTACT with OM, OMW, OM kids, NOTHING! Don't let her pull the "but it's just a harmless little birthday party!" card. There IS no justification for continuing to harm a marriage.
Ken,
If I remember correctly you sent an exposure email to some of OM friends? Would you post that script for me.
\
Thanks
This is the actual letter I used. Most of the ideas in it came from Allen. I sent it to many of OM's FB friends and many church friends:
"[OM] is pursuing my wife to have an affair with her since July of last year. My home that was once happy is now wracked with tension, stress, and guilt. My wife and my children are miserable. I ask that you support my wife, my children, and my home and press [OM] to leave my home and family alone. This is a terrible thing to do to innocent children.
Thank you in advance for your help."
And most of the people I sent it to are supporting me, but there were a couple who doubted the truth of it. I just explained it to them in more detail.
Today was actually a pretty good day by comparison. My wife was interested in going to church with us (a different church because of the embarrassment of the exposure I did in our regular church), but my older daughter threw a fit saying she wanted to see her friend (who unfortunately is OM's son) and so W stayed home and I took the kids to church. Ironically, the OM's son, who is also the one who had the birthday party, was not present because he was sick, but OMW was there and I spoke to her a bit and recommended Penny Tuppy's stuff to her.
I don't think W communicated with OM today. But when I checked her cell phone, I discovered 14 messages from OM in the past month and I did listen to them and it almost made me want to vomit. He kept saying, "I love you" or "I miss you" or even "I love you, I love you, I love you". One message was about good lawyers he found and another was about apartments he found in her price range. I'm telling you, this nut is in hot blind pursuit of my wife and won't let up and won't stop no matter what anyone tells him. I also took liberty to forward several of the messages to my phone.
W went for a drive with us this evening when I took the kids to a park. She still sleeps on the sofa, but at least she is being cordial around me. I haven't touched her for about three months now and I don't really strike up many conversations with her, but I do answer her when she talks to me.
W went for a drive with us this evening when I took the kids to a park. She still sleeps on the sofa, but at least she is being cordial around me. I haven't touched her for about three months now and I don't really strike up many conversations with her, but I do answer her when she talks to me.
From her, this means nothing. Do not read anything into it.
Because of this:
I discovered 14 messages from OM in the past month and I did listen to them and it almost made me want to vomit. He kept saying, "I love you" or "I miss you" or even "I love you, I love you, I love you". One message was about good lawyers he found and another was about apartments he found in her price range. I'm telling you, this nut is in hot blind pursuit of my wife and won't let up and won't stop no matter what anyone tells him.
Why does she save them?
I also took liberty to forward several of the messages to my phone.
Forward them to OMW as well. Gotta wake that woman up!
I am concerned about the fact you are still enabling a relationship between the kids. Let it drop. I edged friends out of my kids lives over the years, for many reasons, (dad was a drug addict, Mom allowed R rated films for 8 year olds, etc) The kids' parent pursuing my spouse would have made it on that list as well. You do not have to explain anything to them or they'll resist. Just be busy when it comes up. "Sorry honey, we are going to another church now (so Mommy can join us") Ok leave out the last part, but cool it! (If you give in to "fits" you're asking for major trouble in a few years!)
I am glad things were more peaceful for you today. Sorry if I rained on your parade.
I discovered 14 messages from OM in the past month and I did listen to them and it almost made me want to vomit. He kept saying, "I love you" or "I miss you" or even "I love you, I love you, I love you". One message was about good lawyers he found and another was about apartments he found in her price range. I'm telling you, this nut is in hot blind pursuit of my wife and won't let up and won't stop no matter what anyone tells him. I also took liberty to forward several of the messages to my phone.
Ken, I'm so sorry! I know this is very painful.
Yet...you said in an earlier post that when your WW told you she was going to move out and you said, "I'll miss you," she came back that night and asked what it would take to make the marriage work.
It sounds like she is VERY conflicted. She likes the attention from OM, but it sounds like he's pushing her into this rather than enticing her into it. If she really wanted to go, she'd be gone.
I say continue to be friendly but also maintain the distance. Continue family activities without her. If OW keeps hounding her like this and you remain calm, cool, and collected, his hot pursuit is going to wear thin fast.
As for the cell phone...I don't know who your provider is, but since your WW refuses to get a new number, perhaps you could block OM's # so they can't call each other. Just a thought --
Ken, take the phone to OMW and have her listen to the messages... This woman is deluded... I can't believe someone can be that naieve and wreckless in protecting her own children...
Don't just forward her the messages... take your phone to her house and make her listen to them... For all you know OM may check his wife's phone and just delete anything you forward...
You need to do this stuff directly
I will probably share those messages with OMW if I see her in church in the next week or two. WhatNow, I will probably start going to a different church soon, but it's a long drive and my daughter is scheduled to sing in a week.
My wife seems to be talking to me more lately and this morning I said, "I have an idea for what you can get me for Father's Day...oh, never mind." And she said, "No, tell me!" So I told her about some cologne's that I like, and she looked them up online and then went out shopping with the older daughter today. And I don't think she has spoken to the OM so far today. So I'd say that today is going fairly well so far.
Ken... do NOT accept gifts from her... and you CERTAINLY don't want to be ASKING for them... unless its the following :
KEN : I know what you can get me for fathers day
MRS KEN : What?
KEN : An honest wife...
Ken, as long as your wife is cheating on you, do NOT give her an OUNCE of room to tap into you emotionally... Your wife buying you cologne to HER mind just means you are willing to accept an open marriage in exchange for some cologne...
I told another woman on this forum the same thing today... The woman and her cheating husband are separated, but he still mows her lawn outside.. I told her to tell him to stay off the property until the affair is over...
Don't you SEE ken? It's just to HER MIND going to be a legitimate BRIBE .. and you ASKED for her to BRIBE you for goodness sakes...
I KNOW its father's day ken, but you really need to start thinking about how your WIFE is going to see this...
Do NOT let her IN ken..do you know what the word DETACHED means?
It means NO DAMN GIFTS
I totally agree with you Allen.
I can see Ken's side in this.
These are usually gifts from the kiddos, they are very proud of them even if Mom picked them out. The kids would be hurt if Ken rejected them. I've been there.... Make a big show of thanks TO THE KIDS and say nothing to the W. Not ideal but the kids feelings have to come first here (not in their choice of friends however!). Maybe later you can mention letting the kids pick something up at the dollar store for you in the future. (It is hysterical to see what they come up with!!!)
AND DO NOT ASK HER FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN FIDELITY at this time.
THe gift came up ahead of time WhatNow, Ken was HINTING that he WANTED her to buy him a gift... THAT is a BIG NO NO
Don't even ASK for fidelity, unless its as a calous truth dart like my sample above...
Your wife is lying to you and cheating on you ken, and its putting yoru kids through a LOT of uncomfortable tension... And you ask your wife to buy you a gift?
Oi Veih
I see your point in this. Thanks Allen and WhatNow.
This evening, W and I and the kids went to another birthday party for a Spanish kid of our church. The Spanish group from our church was there. (They invited us because W has Spanish background, being Puerto Rican.) It was in a park and I played with the kids for awhile while W tried to socialize. After awhile, she went with me to watch the kids play on the playset and asked me, "Did you send your [exposure] letter to someone in the Spanish group too?" I said, "No, I don't think so, but I don't remember very good. Why? Are they not treating you the same?" She said, "No, they're not." Then I went to play with the kids while she sat on a bench thinking.
I dunno Ken... I wouldn't even tell her that... why on earth are you talking to her about this?
MRS KEN : Did you send your [exposure] letter to someone in the Spanish group too?
KEN : As long as you are hurting our children I'll expose it... Does that answer your question?
WALK AWAY
Need some quick help with this one. Allen, Puppy, WhatNow or somebody I hope you're on. OM has tried to call 20 times (not exaggerating) in the last two hours, 18 on my phone and 2 on hers, and W doesn't know about it. I listened to her messages, and he wants to say that he and his family is for sure moving. Should I tell W about the calls or not? Most likely, he'll call her in the morning if I don't tell her. I deleted her new messages so that she wouldn't know that I'd been tinkering with her phone.
Why is he calling YOU????
Did he find out about the recordings of the messages you have??
I suspect this is why he would tell you this. You are not speaking to your W right?
Don't mention it and see what happens.
I think OM wants me to hear the good news about him moving. He's done this before. I give him about a 50/50 chance of really moving based on his past lies. I don't think either OM or W knows that I have the messages. I haven't said anything and I don't see how else they could know. I just listened to her old messages and forwarded a few to my phone which I keep to myself. BTW, I wish I could block his # on her phone, but the provider doesn't have that option. If I could, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I've thought about disabling or hiding her phone, but I don't think that's the right way to handle it. She'd probably just get a new one and be more stealthy about it.
Thanks, WhatNow. I'll wait and see what happens.
OM has tried to call 20 times (not exaggerating) in the last two hours, 18 on my phone and 2 on hers
This is harassment. File a police report and get a restraining order.
OM has tried to call 20 times (not exaggerating) in the last two hours, 18 on my phone and 2 on hers
This is harassment. File a police report and get a restraining order.
Puppy
Print up all the calls and phone messages ken.. give him a criminal record.. THAT is a DENT to the affair...
Protect your home and your children.. get the police on his a$$
Ken.. read Eeyores post today.. he summarized his history and gives you a GREAT demonstration abotu how to fight an affair and NOT PRUSUE.. his wife even invited him for sex and HE REFUSED...
Can YOU do what he's doing here?
THAT's how you handle this Ken.. do what EEyores doing :
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2020638#Post2020638
Thanks Allen. I'll have to check with the police on what I can do.
Well since W has not been answering her phone, OM went to her work even though her boss has asked her not to come. Her boss is absent and since W take the kids with her to her work, OM ordered my kids out of the room so he could talk to her in private. According to my kids, he was there for quite awhile. W was honest and told me about it and of course, I was a bit upset and asked her why she let him in. She said, "Don't worry, I'll soon have my own place. I'm just waiting for the apartment people to call back." I said, "I just can't believe you're doing this to your own family. And that you are interested in a predator." I went on until she told me to "Shut up." She said, "Do you want to have a pretend relationship?" I told her that I just wanted her to stop having a relationship with OM. And she said, "I'll do what I want."
I'll have to check with the police on what I can do.
What are you waiting for?? OM to shove your kids out of the room? or to yell at them??
Dance around with the harassment charges if you insist, but protect those kids!
You have enough for a restraining order...include today's incident with the children. Include anywhere you and kids go, not just your house. If that means he can't go near his own kids school, too bad! KEEP him away from your kids!! He is doing direct damage now!!!!
BAD NEWS: My wife just discovered my thread! I was working at the computer and left a page open to check on the kids and she saw it. When I came back in, she said, "I see what you've been doing! I'm so tired of you!" I said, "Good, get out then." This is not my day.
I've been there Ken... ride it out...
Your wife is an IDIOT if she thinks that guy is gonna be mature enough to commit to ONE WOMAN long term.. she's just a piece of furniture Ken... my couch has more brains than that...
Your wife thinks YOU going to a marriage therapy help forum for advice on how to PROTECT and SAVE a marriage is BAD, but her having an affair and letting this CREEP shove her kids around is romantic and wonderful?
Your wife is on CRACK
Your wife is NOT a woman of integrity, Ken. Not by the way she is acting, and the choices she is making.
If she were, and if she had courage and character, she would register and start her own thread.
Puppy
Ken, if your wife makes an issue about you posting to a divorce busting forum to protect your chidlren and save your marriage at this point I would just chuckle at her and walk away...
Seriously Ken, don't even entertain an argument from this woman on that one... She's just trying to manipulate you into a subservient position and is exploiting your willingness to please her....
There is NO FREAKIN WAY she can make this out to be some betrayal right now... Just laugh at her if she has nothing less than respect for your maturity and commitment.
Please don't do what one man did.....and promise the W that he would no longer post on the board. You might be able to register under a different name so she can't find you so easily.
There's NOTHING WRONG with you posting here Ken...
Ken, just tell your wife she's welcome to visit and read what you are writing, keep posting, its like having a family therapist come to your home...
If your wife thinks visting a marriage bulding forum is BAD.. She's got some growing up to do...
MRS KEN... You've got a great committed man here, why on EARTH are you thinking? You think that OM is gonna go for the long haul with YOU?
You and OM are BOTH a pair of liars right now.. be the better person and GROW UP
W left for awhile after she saw the thread, then came back. I told her that she could lose her job over having the OM there. She got mad at me and threw her water at me (it didn't hit me though). She yelled, "I didn't ask him to come to my work!" I told her, "I can't stop the birds from landing on my head, but I can stop them from making a nest in my hair."
She got up very early this morning (which she never does), did a little cleaning and asked me, "You're not going to tell my boss about OM coming there, are you, because I'm going to quit." I said, "No, don't worry." Then she left the house. I am supposed to leave for work in a half an hour. I might have to take the day off if she doesn't come back soon. I am here with the kids. She also took my keys. Oh, I think she is back now.
She doesn't seem too interested in this forum.
(I guess she didn't take my keys - I just couldn't find them.) She had gone to the store. I told her I was sorry. She said, "For what?" I said, "For whatever I have done." She reminded me that she didn't ask OM to come to her work and the door is open and that she HAS asked him not to go there. She also reminded me of my past mistakes again and she says that I don't love her. She says she doesn't want him and she doesn't want me. She said, "Go find another wife." At that point, I left for work.
I have asked her what it would take for our relationship to work. And she says that she would have to get amnesia so she could forget what a bad husband I was. How I moved her from one state to another when she didn't want to move, how I wasn't showing enough care and concern when the kids were born, how I chatted with other women and did porn (which I did for a brief time I'm very ashamed to say). I have to own up to that - because her memories of these things is apparently where my problem lies.
The good news is - it seems that she is starting to see the OM for who he really is. But she is unwilling to get a protective order on him because she doesn't want to hurt his reputation.
(I guess she didn't take my keys - I just couldn't find them.) She had gone to the store. I told her I was sorry. She said, "For what?" I said, "For whatever I have done." She reminded me that she didn't ask OM to come to her work and the door is open and that she HAS asked him not to go there. She also reminded me of my past mistakes again and she says that I don't love her. She says she doesn't want him and she doesn't want me. She said, "Go find another wife." At that point, I left for work.
You have already owned your part with her, if I remember your back-thread correctly (and I've read every post you've ever written). To KEEP bringing up how sorry you are for your contributions to the dysfunction in your marriage, PRECISELY NOW WHEN SHE IS EXHIBITING SUCH POOR BEHAVIOR, is only going to serve to
ENABLE and
JUSTIFY her affair choices.
Puppy
I know this script!
"If I make what YOU'RE doing look crazy, it takes all the focus off me!"
Calling you dozens of time...going to wife's work when her boss isn't there...shoving your kids out of the room.
I'm already scared!
This guy is obsessing/unstable and a danger to your family. Get a restraining order NOW! Your wife may have been lured into the danger zone, but she has no right to drag your girls along with her.
Step 1: Protect your family
Step 2: Rally your friends, relatives, & church members to help
Step 3: Throw wife a lifeline once this guy's gone
WAW's in the affair fog and can't see the danger this man presents. If he's locked up and she has to go cold turkey, it may be enough to snap her out of it...
I called the authorities yesterday evening to find out what I could do about getting a restraining or protective order, and they said there's nothing I can do as long as she welcomes him around the kids. She would have to want to do that. Maybe there is something I can tell W. I've already told her that he is a predator and dangerous. She doesn't seem to believe me.
You CAN get one for you and the house (and phones). He is harassing YOU.
Ken, if you get one for YOU and your wife or kids are there he can't go near your kids or your wife either...
If you have one then he has to stay AWAY from you and everything that YOU SURROUND yourself with.. are you THINKING here?
Ken.. go GET IT and STOP making EXCUSES... its a STATEMENT to have one.. the OM will have that on FILE after that and you GETTING one may just SCARE HIM OFF on its OWN... if he KNOWS you have the POLICE filing stuff on him he may just BACK OFF
Use your HEAD KEN... go GET IT and STOP RATIONALIZING to make excuses for your inaction...
GO DO IT...
Good comment on the making nests in the hair... I love it!
There's NOTHING WRONG with you posting here Ken...
I just meant that if he felt uncomfortable or hindered at the thought of her reading his posts that he might want a different user name. I just didn't want him to do like the other guy and make wrong promises just to satisfy her.
She's still throwing stuff at you (and it makes no difference in the level of respect if it hits you or not). I just can't understand why you can't see how awful that is for a woman to treat her H that way.
You are still apologizing to her. Just when you could really gain more ground, you turn around and start pleading with her again. I know it's been very hard for you. You have some dedicated people here who is working to help you through this. You deserve so much better in a wife. Maybe she'll realize that one day and decide that she's ready to be that woman, but today obvisiously isn't the day, so continue to press forward in what you've been told to do.
So...
When you stood at the altar on your wedding day, giddy with hope and excitement, could you EVER have imagined your blushing bride spewing the venom that's coming out of her mouth?
NO!
So don't believe her NOW! This is like one of those Sci-Fi movies where aliens have taken over your wife's body and you have to defeat the bogus Mrs. Ken in order to save the real one.
Do what you need to in order to BE THE HERO and save the day!
You can do this!
I have a protective order for my house. He can't come around the house. I'll have to look into getting one for me. Thanks Allen for that suggestion.
Sandi, you're right. I need to stop pleading and get back to my 180's.
SeeingRed, that is a very accurate description of what seems to have happened. It's just as if aliens have taken over her body.
Thanks for the encouragement. It's so hard to be patient with this. Often I wonder if she'll EVER come back around. I haven't touched her for months now and she certainly is not approaching me for affection. That's hard to take. On the contrary, she is still "spewing venom", saying "I'm not in love with you", "I would need a brain transplant to love you", etc. Hearing that makes me feel depressed.
Ken, the PHYSICAL stuff is the LAST to return usually...
You got a protective order.. GOOD... another dent in this dreamland they created... as long as your wife is in the home OM can't come around... I guess he will be notified of this by someone?
Details on the PO?
The idea here ken is to get the law involved to raise the stakes even MORE.. it takes the excitement out of the affair and helps wake yoru wife up.. it will take TIME, but if she sees a protective order to keep OM away from her home it WILL make a dent in her wall.. it takes time and its a slow proccess...
Good job ken... get one for your kids and you if you can...
The more law you throw at this guy and in your wife's face the less fun this little affair is... It becomes an embarassment instead...
TELL people Ken, exposse the PO to people in church to shame the guy too... don't keep teh PO a secret... let everyone know you had to do that to protect your home.
I have a protective order for my house. He can't come around the house. I'll have to look into getting one for me.
YES!!!!
Ken, I know this has been very hard b/c I think I know what kind of person you are by the posts you have left. You have a gentle, caring heart, but that also can appear to be passive to a WAW. I realize that it may seem as if you get hit over the head with some things, but remember that we've been in a stitch similar to yours. With me, of course, I was the WAW and my H was very much like you. If he had not stepped up and be the man he had to be....I would not be home and respecting him as the head of our home. There is no promise that your W will change back to the W you want, but she sure won't if you "don't" do what you've been advised.
I am proud of you making the decision to protect your home. Good for you!
Don't you feel safer Ken? Don't you feel like your family is safer?
I know its just a protection order, but I believe the OM gets notified of this as well... does he not?
Be ready to call the cops if he violates it too...
Keep getting the law involved.. you see this secret little affair of theirs has a very different face on it now.. its getting uglier by the day Ken.. Keep up the great work!
Next time your wife complains about something mention to her...
Yah, I am really proud of you too.. I had to get a protection order for our home to keep that creep away from our kids... You proud of that? I can't wait to tell our kids about this when they get older... They will have so much respect for their mother when I tell them what I had to do to protect them because SHE won't tell OM to get lost
If she insists she wants him to go away... CALL her on it and take her to get a PO for HER too.. BOOM!
I bet she won't go... But say it anyways, when she has to backpeddal it will put another dent in the wall...
Good work Ken. Can he call you? What if you are home and answer your W's phone and it is him?
You're the guy!
The more legal hassles/reality checks these two addicts have to deal with, the less fun it becomes. When it's secret and sneaky, it's exciting. When there's a criminal record involved? Not so much.
So...want some hot, steamy sex?
Then read a hot, steamy romance novel in a genre that you like - contemporary, historical, murder mystery, or whatever. Not only will you see how a NORMAL relationship plays out - complete with conflicts, boundaries, AND wild physical attraction - you'll realize just how NOT normal what you're been dealing with IS.
Men are stimulated by what they see and touch. Women get turned on by what they think and FEEL. Since most romances are written by women, you'll get VALUABLE insight into HOW WOMEN THINK about love, romance, and relationships. It may seem corny, but if you get inside her mind...you win.
I remember reading early on in this saga that while men have a hard time giving up OW, women tend to dump OM as soon as their needs are met at home. Meet her needs, Ken, and she'll be back in a flash...
Woah Ken... don't push yourself on her just yet... HOLD OFF...
Sorry SR, I think its too soon to be reccomending meeting wife's needs... too soon yet...
Until your wife refuses to accept this creep's calls and gets a PO on him HERSELF you hold off Ken... Hold OFF
I remember reading early on in this saga that while men have a hard time giving up OW, women tend to dump OM as soon as their needs are met at home. Meet her needs, Ken, and she'll be back in a flash...
I had to fight off and on for over two years.. and I was doin a pretty darn good job before the first year was out of stepping up... It took a LONG time for OM to dissappear...
Whomever said that is misinformed... There are other men here such as officerinneed who can also confirm this is not the case...
I had to fight off and on for over two years... It took a LONG time for OM to dissappear...
Whomever said that is misinformed... There are other men here such as officerinneed who can also confirm this is not the case...
Mea culpa. I'll defer to your experience.
Wow! It's hard to keep up with all the posting on here sometimes. I need to clarify. I've had the PO on him since mid-March when I had the police over to get him off my property and he hasn't come around my house since. The minute he does, I'm calling the police.
My wife cooked up a nice meal when she got home and asked me, "Did you eat?" (I did have some Ramen noodles before she got home.) I said, "Don't worry about me" and walked away. I don't understand how she can talk like she did this morning and then try to be nice to me like that. That's good, but I just don't understand.
GOOD NEWS: W apologized for what she said this morning. She also deleted OM from her FB account and asked him not to come to her work. She is being nice to me this evening. She also may be able to set up a work area at our house so she doesn't have to go anywhere and she asked me if she could use the dining room. I said, "Of course you can use the whole * house if you want to! That would be great!"
OM is calling her cell phone and leaving messages asking her if she deleted him from FB (which she did, not me). She is not answering his calls now for about a week.
GOOD NEWS: W apologized for what she said this morning. She also deleted OM from her FB account and asked him not to come to her work. She is being nice to me this evening. She also may be able to set up a work area at our house so she doesn't have to go anywhere and she asked me if she could use the dining room. I said, "Of course you can use the whole * house if you want to! That would be great!"
OM is calling her cell phone and leaving messages asking her if she deleted him from FB (which she did, not me). She is not answering his calls now for about a week.
See? The venom-spewing alien took the night off and your wife has returned for a while. This is excellent! Maybe - just maybe - OM will get the clue to leave her alone.
I still say he's obsessive and dangerous, though, and your WW needs to take legal action to keep him away from her...
Ken... This is good news again on both fronts...
1. your wife is trying to persuade you NOT to "throw her out"
2. OM is exposing himself for the interloper he is
----------------
1. I would STILL try to get the PO for your kids on OM as well... Tell the police he showed up at your wife's workplace... Ken you need to do this FAST.. If you wait a week they will just bounce you OUT of there... If OM tries to call your wife's phone and she makes it CLEAR to you that she doens't want him calling.. get a PO on HIM too for HER.. tell her you want to do this
2. This is gonna be a LOT EASIER for you Ken once OM is gone... Your wife is already showing signs she wants to work with you and doesn't want to leave
3. What do you mean you don't understnad how she can be nice after yelling at you earlier? She's ADDICTED KEN.. we have been SAYING that for MONTHS! Don't you know what the implications of that ARE?
Do some research on addictions Ken... do it FAST... you need to understnad what withdrawal is...
Don't want to sound negative & discouraging, but based on my own experience, don't rush into believing that she is through with OM just yet. The fact that she said what she did is good only if she meant it. However, I think you went down the road before and she simply was working to throw you off track and never stopped her A. I know, b/c I played the part. I learned how to take it deeper undercover. So, don't let your guard down. Stay tough b/c I think you'll discover that she will like that in a man.
Ken... If you really want to challenge her then try to get a PO done on HER and OM.. if she agrees to that then she may just mean it when she tells you she doesn't want him calling...
Unfortunately for some reason, she called him again today. This is such a roller coaster ride - up and down. I was so happy yesterday and now I'm feeling depressed again.
There you go ken.. gotta keep up the fight and stay detached...
Are you confronting her at all about her calling him like this?
Have you gone to see about a PO for the home and kids since his 20 calls in one day nonsense?
If I confront her, she will just know that I was checking up on her. Could anything good come out of it?
I have a PO for the home. I can't get a PO for the kids because they told me that when the kids are with her, she can allow the OM around her and the kids - it's her choice. Apparently he wasn't shoving my kids around or anything, he just asked them to leave the room and they did.
I believe he is making plans to move his wife out of his house and at that point he will probably invite my wife to move in. Although I'm not sure she really wants that at this point, but it bothers me that she entertains the thought and talks to him about it. His wife has been offered a part time job in another state, but he is making the excuse that a part time job won't pay the bills and he apparently doesn't want to move.
Ken sorry for jumping in have you asked your pastor to talk to her.I dont know butt i think that would help some maybey i may be wrong i dont know if you have allready done this butt its a chance.
If she has respect for god and the bible it may be tool that could help you.
Thanks twolf. Yes, the pastor has made several attempts to talk to her. His wife is even a therapist and she has also attempted to talk to her. W doesn't want to hear any of it. She just keeps saying, "I tried for 11 years!" We have been married for 12 years, but she can't claim the last year because she gave up working on our marriage when OM came along about a year ago.
If I confront her, she will just know that I was checking up on her.
So????
You are the second person I have said this to today, but here goes; YOU do not have anything to prove. SHE has everything to prove. YOU are not the one on trial (so to speak) but she is. She is laying a guilt trip on you for checking up on her? Ken....SHE NEEDS TO BE CHECKED UP ON.....don't ya think? Don't allow her to throw some type of moral code on you. That is just too ironic.
So it's the OM's W change of jobs that was causing the move? Yes, I think you are probably right about what he will try. OM's W has no backbone, no spunk, no spit & fire or he would not treat her the way he does. Has the Little Bo Peep method worked for her? I think not.
I think OM is nuts! But, I also think that your W is going to have to find out his true nature before she'll straighten up. I still believe if she thought you were "dumping" her b/c you no longer found her attractive (female pride there)then she would stop throwing herself at OM. Ken, it's human nature. If she believes you don't want her....then she'll forget about that luney-tune.
You are an abused husband. I have decided that you are abused by your own wife. She'll not respect that. She'll not feel in love with a man she can abuse.
Just challenge her Ken...
"Have you been doing your part along with me to keep OM away from our marriage and our children?"
She will say YES
Then you tell her
"No you haven't... I am NOT STUPID"
The Sep Order will be filed as soon as I am complete... You should be ashamed of yourself, and I feel sorry for children that have to tolerate your wrecklessness... THEY ARE INNOCENT in this mess... but THEY will be paying the biggest price
I really am dissapointed you can trash a marriage like this... I thought OM was bad enough..."
WALK away
Thanks Sandi and Allen. I don't think W talked to OM yesterday. This morning she saw me standing there and asked:
W: "Do you need something?"
ME: "No."
W: "So have you been happy all these years?"
ME: "Mostly."
W: "Well then maybe I'm the problem."
ME: "Ya reckon'?"
W: "Yes."
ME: "Well, have a good day."
W: "You too."
Then I left for work.
Two thumbs up!!
Wish I had your brevity! "Guy-speak"....
That was pretty good Ken... I can think of a few good ones like that :
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: We aren't the problem, marriages are a challenge, ... I am NOT going to run from it
------------
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: I dont' care about problems, i want a family-safe SOLUTION
------------
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: WE are both the problem and the solution - you have a chance to repair a family or destroy it - and time's a tickin
------------
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: Blame doesn't solve anything - repair the problem - THAT solves it
------------
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: You can go find someone else to walk into that trap, I choose to be an adult thankyouverymuch
------------
Wife: Well then maybe I'm the problem.
ME: You can go find someone else to walk into that trap, I choose to be an adult thankyouverymuch
Perhaps you should choose to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.
As a woman, I would spin if my H said this to me, but it would make me think.
I'm with Sandi2...if she thought you were going away she would change her tune. If you don't require her to respect you as a man and a human being, she will not be obligated to treat you with respect.
Good suggestions. Thanks.
W went to church with me and the kids today because our kids were scheduled to sing today and I was scheduled to help up front. And guess who else showed up - you guessed it, OM! I took my kids to their class and he was there too. My wife went into the sanctuary. The tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
At one point I passed him in the hallway and I called him a creep. That got him mad and HE SHOVED ME and called me some names too. W saw but I don't know if anyone else did.
I probably won't be scheduling any more singing for our kids there for a long time. This morning, my wife sounded interested in going to a different church. It's quite a drive, but it will be worth it.
A friend loaned my wife several books. Hope they are good.
She sounded intrested? Did BLOOD have to be spilt before she figured out this was a bad idea?
OM showing up in a church?
I want to know why that church hasn't thrown him OUT yet... I feel sorry for his kids...
On the good news front Ken my bet is your wife seeing OM shoving you likley put yet another dent in the fantasy... I somehow don't think that's what she envisions her romantic knight in shining armor to be doing... shoving people in a church...
You have this in the bag Ken, keep it up
Not only did he shove me, but he said, "Let's take this outside!" To which I said, "OK, let's go...do what you gotta do, man!" But my wife stopped him. I would have loved to call the cops on him. But now that he's done this, it would probably be easy to get a restraining order on him. The question is, would that help my sitch? W has asked me not to do that.
Yes, do it... IGNORE your WIFE... she just doens't like facing REALITY
Shove reality at your wife relentlessly Ken... She talks to him on the phone or whatever, YOU keep hitting her with reality... it will burst the fantasy bubble... which I think is happening already but this will just do it all the moreso...
Get the restraining order... You are killing her fantasy Ken... keep at it... get that RO
OK I'll try to do that. But I'm wondering if he's already at the church if I would then have to be the one to leave. Hmmm...
W is reading right now so that's a good thing. One of the books that was loaned to her is called "Every Woman's Battle". I think that will be a very good read for her.
Ken, I would reccomend you read these as well... You need to be prepared on her reaction to what she's read... Don't just trust the cover... Find out what she's reading in detail...
Don't TALK to her about it, just wait for her to go out and skim them... research them on the
www... some of us here may have already read some of the titles...
I honeslty don't know how the RO would work re the church Ken... you would have to find that out when you apply...
The point is to GET IT so you put another dent in this fantasy of hers...
Originally your wife was envisioning this knight in shining armour who was charming, kind, etc...
You having to contact the police and get a restraining order on this man because he was shoving you in a church will turn that upside down...
This is what she needs to see Ken, reality. Cold, simple, truth...
I dunno, Allen, I kinda think his wife may perceive a restraining order as a sign of weakness -- trying to get the law to do for him what he's unwilling to do for himself, and that's stand up for himself.
I once heard a quote from Gloria Steinham, who was lamenting modern-day feminism, and all of the workplace "sexual harrassment" laws and other such minutae. I'm paraphrasing here, but she said something like "What's wrong with these women? Screw running to a supervisor, and a judge -- just knee the guy in the b*lls and tell him if he ever does that to you again, there's more where that came from."
It's kinda the same thing.
Puppy
W just googled "I hate marriage".
Yes I get that, but if you followed Gloria's advice most of these women would be in jail for assault...
When someone shoves you in a church the ADULT thing to do is to get the law to handle it in my opinion...
Ken CAN handle the RO in a way that sets an example of maturity and adulthood, OR he can handle it in a way that makes him look like a coward and a fool, hoping to hide behind a piece of paper...
If Ken verbally announces to his wife he's getting the RO to protect his KIDS from this man, that he does NOT want his CHILDREN around violent men, I think that will help his case...
This man is a bully, yes, but confronting him man to man isn't going to end well... This guy's gonna throw a punch, Ken's gonna throw one back... I just don't see his wife GROWING UP with an experience like that.. It will just FEED this childish romance fantasy of hers... Having two men beating each other senseless for her affection... I don't advocate that... The marriage needs SERIOUS adult example... Not more romantic fantasies realized...
Ken could end up in jail and the OM not charged at all... The law is fickle that way... I don't think one should roll the dice with that...
When there is a home and children involved, fisticuffs are not the best solution... and this OM is clearly not going to back off simply from intimidation...
I think smarts is the way to beat this guy... Not with fists...
W just googled "I hate marriage".
You need to find out what she's reading Ken
Who said anything about hitting the guy??
Who said anything about hitting the guy??
Gloria Steinham
Most R/o are good at 300 feet and i would put your kids and wife on that one i had to fight a false one that the judge threw out and told the ex he didnt want to see her again.
W just googled "I hate marriage".
Ask her WHAT about marriage she hates.
Don't blame, don't be snarky, just go on a fact-finding mission and ask questions, like a reporter.
She may say vague things like, "I feel trapped" or "I hate all the obligations," etc. Ask her HOW she feels trapped and WHAT obligations. Dig deeper. You're trying to get inside her head.
Again, don't judge, don't condemn. She's acting this way for a reason, and you're trying to get to the root of the problem. She may not be able to articulate what the problem IS, may not have the right words for it, but this exercise might give you some insight.
How do you win someone to YOUR way of thinking? By seeing things THEIR way first (Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People").
Try it and see.
W just googled "I hate marriage".
Ask her WHAT about marriage she hates.
Don't blame, don't be snarky, just go on a fact-finding mission and ask questions, like a reporter.
She may say vague things like, "I feel trapped" or "I hate all the obligations," etc. Ask her HOW she feels trapped and WHAT obligations. Dig deeper. You're trying to get inside her head.
Again, don't judge, don't condemn. She's acting this way for a reason, and you're trying to get to the root of the problem. She may not be able to articulate what the problem IS, may not have the right words for it, but this exercise might give you some insight.
How do you win someone to YOUR way of thinking? By seeing things THEIR way first (Dale Carnegie, "How to Win Friends and Influence People").
Ordinarily, I'd agree, Red, and that book is probably THE most influential book (other than the Bible) I've ever read (first read it when I was 17). But you can't reason with an addict when they're still in contact with the source of their addiction. Ken's wife feels "trapped" and "hates marriage" because she's having an affair, her brain is awash wit PEAs, and she sees her husband as THE main obstacle to getting her fix, unencumbered.
Puppy
I agree pup... It's a good book but using that right NOW in this situation will just make things worse, not to mention, its blatant pursuit...
In light of what Pup and Allen are saying, I'll hold off on the pursuit for now. Pardon my ignorance, but what book are we talking about?
I got Father's day gifts from the kids this morning and W is planning to go visit her sister (who incidentally is going through a divorce) in Puerto Rico for a week leaving the kids here. And that's fine with me. I really see a problem with it.
Unless OM is on a plane there as you type this it should be fine ya...
One of the books that was loaned to her is called "Every Woman's Battle".
That is a fantastic book for women! Especially those who fantasize about other relationships, OM, etc.
What book are we talking about?
"How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. It was written in the 1930's.
W is planning to go visit her sister (who incidentally is going through a divorce) in Puerto Rico for a week leaving the kids here. And that's fine with me. I really see a problem with it.
Unless OM is on a plane there as you type this it should be fine ya...
That was my first thought. Unfortunately, your SIL will side with your WW and lie for her if he IS there. Check with OMW to see if he's on a trip this week...
Check with OMW to see if he's on a trip this week...
Excellent idea.
Puppy
A LITTLE UPDATE: W's trip to visit her family is not planned for another month or so. Thanks for the heads up on checking on the OM.
I informed W that I am planning to get an RO on the OM (I already have it filled out) and she is quite unhappy with that idea of course. She defended him for pushing me, saying that I started it by calling him a "creep".
She also came to me this morning saying that she doesn't see how our marriage could ever work and that we need to end it. She seems very upset over all the exposure I have done. She keeps thanking me for ruining her reputation. She's ashamed to be seen in church, but she wants to go again this weekend because some long-time friends have come back to visit and asked us to be there to hear them speak from the pulpit. I need to get that RO submitted before the OM shows up again.
She says she can't stand my personality. I asked her why she married me and she said it was a mistake and that she was stupid. She repeated again that she tried to fix our marriage for 11 years. (she really didn't do much, just get a couple of relationship books, and tell me she wanted me to spend more time with her.) She never sought counseling or anything like that. I asked her, "Did you exhaust every effort to save our marriage? Have you left no stone unturned?" (Got that from Dr. Phil.) I noticed that she was on Dr. Phil's website today, but she also called the OM today. I also found a website about how it is possible for a person's personality to change, but I don't think she's interested.
Make sure these friends know about her affair asap
Ken, stop listening to her rant about how hopeless the marriage is etc.. its NOT HELPING
WALK AWAY when she tries that crap.. do NOT let HER DO THAT.. WALK AWAY
If she tells you that you ruined her reputation :
No, that creep violating your marriage and you chasing him like a teenager did that just fine... You are supposed to be a MOTHER who PROTECTS her family from predators like that... does he have to push your KIDS TOO before you DO SOMETHING about him? You didn't expect me to HIDE what he's doing from people FOR you did you? Do you think I'm a doormat? You think I shoul just sit back and let him violate my home and my family? I am PROTECTING MY FAMILY... Why don't YOU try it for a while... It will give you a MUCH BETTER reputation than the one you are getting right now...
Let her poke around... I will find osme articles for you to print up too... She will read them if you leave them laying around...
Yes get that RO, particularly if she's defending him...
You had every right to call him a creep Ken, YOU arne't violating HIS family... HE"S the creep... don't worry about your wife, she's just an addict right now and its just her addiction talking to you right now.. you need to STOP letting her RANT like that.. WALK AWAY... EACH TIME she rants like that, she REINFORCES this gargage into her thoughts and gets herself MORE CONVINCED...
How doyou stop it? You don't ENTERTAIN IT... you walk away and make it clear you refuse to listen to her negativity... she will stop eventually if you stop listening to her gargage...
Here ya go Ken. You said you like Phil McGraw so here's some things he has to say about infidelity. I bolded important points and removed a few that are irrelevant :
Were you cheated on?
· It is absolutely vital for you to move forward with life and love. Being willing to trust again is key. Take things one step at a time.
· Don't try to make sense out of nonsense. Rationalizing your cheating spouse's behavior or sympathizing with him/her is pointless. It is never OK to go outside of your relationship to solve problems within a relationship. It's not your fault.
· Time heals nothing. It is what you do with the time that matters.
· Remember that it is better to be healthy alone than sick with someone cheating on you.
· If your partner wants back in, he/she will have to earn his/her way back into the relationship. Renegotiate the relationship in a way that works for both of you.
· There comes a point in time where you may have to draw a line and say, "That's it, I'm done. I'm not mad at you. I withdraw my feelings, I withdraw my emotions. You just go do whatever you're going to do because I'm not going to live like this anymore." Don't stay together for the children. Remember, kids would rather be from a broken home than live in one. They're much better off with one well-adjusted, happy, thriving parent, than they are with two where one is cheating, lying, and fighting, with the LBS living with stress and pressure.
Did you have an affair?
· Own the problems that you created by having an affair. You cannot change what you don't acknowledge.
· It is unfair to compare a new, exciting, taboo fantasy relationship to one you've been in for years where there are kids, bills to pay, a house to run and noses to wipe. That is a ridiculous comparison.
· In order to resolve your relationship, contact with "the other person" must be cut off 100 percent. You can't work on dealing with the consequences of the affair while you're still having it.
· Don't rely on your heart to tell you what to do; rely on your intellect. Do what logic tells you is the right thing to do.
· Make the hard decisions. Remember, checking out of one relationship before you finish it appropriately doesn't work.
· Ask yourself: What are you doing to help your partner get past the affair?
· Be mature enough to recognize that life is not always all about you and what feels good for you in the moment. If you are married and have children, you have an obligation and a commitment that far transcends what feels good.
· Help the partner who did not have the affair find emotional closure. You must do whatever it takes until your partner finds it. If it requires you to check in with your spouse multiple times a day, then do it. It'll require you being where you're supposed to be, when you're supposed to be, 24 hours-a-day, seven days-a-week, so your spouse can trust you again. And you do it until.
· Want to know if something is cheating? If you wouldn't do it with your spouse standing there, it's cheating.
· If your marriage is over and you have children, understand that your relationship with your ex will never end. You will always at least be co-parents of your children. Build a new relationship as their allies.
· Do you know what a healthy relationship is? Figure out what you want and behave your way to success.
That is excellent information, Allen.
Thank Phil McGraw.. he's the man...
OK I got the RO on the OM completed and submitted to the court. I was able to list my wife and kids on it and request no contact for all of us. Now the question is, if he shows up at church and is reluctant to leave, or if he calls W, should I be quick to report him and get him arrested? Not sure W will ever forgive me for that.
(BTW, she talked to OM again today by phone.)
Yippee! good job ken!
Once he is served he will not just be pushing/breaking your boundary but one of the law. If he pushes it, you HAVE to follow through. You might give your church leaders the heads up on the RO. If he shows up they may be able to warn him to leave before you get there. Let them know your schedule.
IDK about the calls to/from W. If it is the house phone or your phone definitely charge. The water gets muddy with W's phone. I would take the phone from her and break it if she is calling from the house or in the presence of the kids. I have done this with one of my teenagers and it really got the point across. Haven't had a problem with her crossing boundaries with her phone since!
Now the question is, if he shows up at church and is reluctant to leave, or if he calls W, should I be quick to report him and get him arrested?
One of your biggest problems in DBing is that you prolong doing what you need to do. What is the point of having a RO if you make exceptions? OM has proven himself over & over again.
Not sure W will ever forgive me for that.
You've made that statement many times. Yes she will forgive you. One day she will thank God that you did it.
I think OM gets a notice that he's not to go near Ken or the family.. I think yes?
I think that OMW should be told there's a restraining order on him... once OM knows of course...
I doubt OM will tell his wife.. It's not exactly something you brag about...
NEED HELP: The court called and said that I could not request a RO on someone that I have not lived with, but I may be able to do a stalking order, so I will look into that. But now I have another dilema, W wants to go to church because some old friends have come to visit and are going to be speaking, but OMW just called me to tell me that OM will be in church and not to "freak out". I can't keep W from going, so what should I do?
Every time both W and OM are there, they try to sneak off to the hallway together to talk.
It goes back to boundaries. Have you established boundaries with her concerning the OM?
It sounds like you and the OMW are powerless. Not so. Has she ever tried stopping her H?
It goes back to boundaries. Have you established boundaries with her concerning the OM?
It sounds like you and the OMW are powerless. Not so. Has she ever tried stopping her H?
They've BOTH been powerless, thru this entire ordeal.
Good lord.
Puppy
Neither W nor OM respect boundaries. In that sense, I think OMW and I ARE essentially powerless. About the only power that I have had has been to get the law involved.
Respect is EARNED, Ken. There is a seriousness that is conveyed, and a consistency to the consequences that kick in, that shape the behavior of the misbehaven.
That hasn't happened here, and I've followed your sitch from damned near the beginning.
Simply put, your wife and OM don't take you or OM's wife seriously, they don't respect you, they view your objections to their illicit relationship as WEAK, and they've been thumbing their collective noses as the both of you all along.
Puppy
PDT is correct.
Has the OM been walking all over his wife?
I just know that OM has no respect for me or his wife.
Respect is EARNED, Ken. There is a seriousness that is conveyed, and a consistency to the consequences that kick in, that shape the behavior of the misbehaven.
That hasn't happened here, and I've followed your sitch from damned near the beginning.
Puppy
So what COULD I have done that I didn't do? Ask her to leave? That I have done several times. And every time I get ready to use a TSO to get her out, she fools me into thinking that they are cutting it off.
Right now, I just need help with this:
W wants to go to church because some old friends have come to visit and are going to be speaking, but OMW just called me to tell me that OM will be in church and not to "freak out". I can't keep W from going, so what should I do?
Every time both W and OM are there, they try to sneak off to the hallway together to talk.
How do I deal with the OM in church? Should I confront him? If so, how? OMW has called me twice asking me not to do what I did last week (call him a creep).
So what COULD I have done that I didn't do?
Let's not go down that road again. Stay focuses on what you can do now.
Originally Posted By: ken5140
W wants to go to church because some old friends have come to visit and are going to be speaking, but OMW just called me to tell me that OM will be in church and not to "freak out". I can't keep W from going, so what should I do?
Every time both W and OM are there, they try to sneak off to the hallway together to talk.
How do I deal with the OM in church? Should I confront him? If so, how? OMW has called me twice asking me not to do what I did last week (call him a creep).
No no. The OMW doesn't get it. It is not your job to try and keep him & your W apart at church or any other place. If you have a RO, then it's
his responsibility to keep his distance. OMW doesn't want any scenes caused but she'll put up with her H & your W secretely meeting in the hallway of the church? OM & your W certainly has no respect for where they are, do they? It is just another place for them to sneak around and get to see each other.
OM's W has proven that she is as spineless as jelly. You cannot afford to start trying to do her job for her.....you have your own to do. If she contacts you again, tell her that it is her H's decision and if he breaks the RO, then the police will be notified. It might cause a distrubance, but to me that is not as bad as the conduct that has been carried on there.
Don't confront OM at church, just notify the police immediately and have them deal with him. Stick to your plan, Ken. OM & your W will have to be shown that you mean business! They think you will back down, and that is exactly what OM'W is trying to get you to do. I think OM is behind her pleading with you!
I say you GO
You stay by her side and hold her hadn teh whole time...
If she wants to go to the ladies room you walk her there and wait at the door
If they DO end up talking you casue a scene and break it up Ken... You EXPOSE in CHURCH what they aer DOING
I strongly suspect your wife knows OM is going and this thing about her friends speaking is just an excuse...
You GO Ken.. don't hide in your home.. you GO and you protect her and your kids while you are there...
It goes back to boundaries. Have you established boundaries with her concerning the OM?
It sounds like you and the OMW are powerless. Not so. Has she ever tried stopping her H?
They've BOTH been powerless, thru this entire ordeal.
Good lord.
Puppy
It's not just those two Pup, the church heads aren't doing anythign about OM shoving Ken in a church either.. OM should have been BANNED on the SPOT for that... A bunch of spineless hypocrites running that church I say...
Sandi, I don't have a RO yet. The court said I couldn't get one on a non-family member, but I may be able to get a stalking injunction, so I'll try that next week.
I'll go to church, but W doesn't let me hold her hand. I haven't touched her for months now. And Allen is right, the church people are not much help when I have to deal with OM in church.
Just remember those two are looking for a romantic escape... if you can SPOIL that then DO IT..
Thanks Allen for advising me to expose to our visiting friends. That helped us to avoid some major problems. They actually helped us avoid much contact with the OM today, although W did go up to talk to him at one point and I just went to stand beside her and didn't say anything.
I'm starting to think that it's very possible that W was planning to meet up with OM on the trip that she was planning to Puerto Rico, because our friends have almost convinced her to use her vacation time to visit them instead (with me and the kids) and when they left from visiting us, W went out (I think to call OM because that's what she does when she won't tell me where she's going).
Ken if your wife sneaks off and won't tell you where she's going FOLLOW HER... don't give her that secret romantic escape.. RUIN IT
W wanted to go to Puerto Rico to visit her sister who is divorcing. But our visitors today may have convinced her to not go, but to rather have her sister come visit us and go on vacation with us travelling around like we did last year. She is on the phone with her sister now. I think she is trying to convince her.
Before she called her, she said to me, "If we do this, don't think that our relationship is automatically fixed. I'd be doing it for the kids." I said, "Does that mean you're still not willing to fix our relationship or not necessarily?" She responded, "Not necessarily." So I take that as a minor good sign.
Yep. Just learned this lesson the hard way.
Ken I woudln't even push her for anything specific right now... Just focus on getting OM out of the way and ruining the romance... You can get her commitment a LOT EASIER when OM is out of the picture for a while... especially if its because he turns out to finally show his true colours to her and she sees him for what he is...
That should happen before you press her for marriage repair
OK, what should I say to her?
Ken if your wife sneaks off and won't tell you where she's going FOLLOW HER... don't give her that secret romantic escape.. RUIN IT
But Allen, wouldn't this be considered pursuit? One thing is for sure, she would be fuming mad about it.
It's not pursuit if she knows you're doing it as infidelitus interruptus. It's only pursuit when you're tagging along after them to try to BE with them, and spend time with them.
Puppy
Exactly... you aren't pursing your marriage to be rebuilt ... that's the pursuit thats discouraged
NO PURSUING REBUILDING the MARRIAGE (no point until OM is gone)
DO PURSUE an END to the EXCITEMENT of the AFFAIR
It's ok to INVITE your wife to rebuild so she understands your position, but no inviting her to family therapy, no giving her articles to read, no watching DR Phil with her on TV, etc.. .THAT pursuit is BAD
PROTECTING your MARRIAGE by supervising your wife's church movements IS OK
Remember, you arne't policing her, you are PROTECTING HER from OM...
It would be easier for me to take her cell phone. Either way, she is going to turn into dracula.
Ken just by a cell phone jammer so seh can't use the cell phone in the house
And as we have said before "Dracula" is the addiction, not her... you can't be afraid of her addiction, that is the monster you have to drive OUT of her.. which you ARE doing
A cell phone jammer - awesome! Didn't know they existed. Where can I get one of those? I wish somebody would have told me about that before. I would have done it a long time ago.
I just checked her cell phone and OM called yesterday morning and said to her, "I love you." And she called him yesterday evening and this morning.
any tech store should be able to order one if they dont' have one on the shelf...
I mentioned it on Optimust's forum but no I don't think I mentioned it on yours...
ebay has them too ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Mobile-Phon...=item2c554a71ceNote : You need to be able to HIDE this from your WIFE... OKAY? You can't use it in FRONT Of her...
Here's a video on youtube :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsCDkjG9l0INOte I haven't watched teh video.. I am just showing you the research is tehre if you want it
Stop being afraid of her anger. Anger never killed anyone, and if she tried to get physical, I bet you are bigger than she is, right? I think she has sensed that you were hesitant to do several things b/c you didn't want to stir her anger. Therefore, she bullies you.
Anger never killed anyone? lol
Sorry Sandi, I know you're tryin to help but hearing that just made me laugh lol
You made my day!
I ordered a cell phone jammer and I am filling out the documents for a "civil stalking injunction" on the OM.
Yesterday, W had a long conversation with her brother, who is a pastor, and W was mostly complaining about me, and why she refuses to try to work things out with me. But it sounded like he convinced her that we should see a counselor. Should I try to arrange that? Also, should I expose to him? I feel like he is getting a very one-sided story.
Later in the day, W talked again with OM.
1. Yes Ken tell the truth.. do NOT like or you are PART of the affair and an accomplice...
2. You Ken should be going to a family therapist on your OWN to set an example... You should NOT be waiting for yoru wife to WANT to go... YOU set the standard in your home by giong yourself... YOU LEAD and SHE follows.. for months now you've been waiting for HER to lead and you follow...YOU are the lead now... you ACT and she will respond to that... find a GOOD family therapist you AGREE with 100% BEFORE you introduce your wife to them.. NEVER take your wife blind into a FT you don't know
3. Make sure its a family therapist, NOT a shrink/psychotherapist/psychoanalyst/psychologist
I ordered a cell phone jammer and I am filling out the documents for a "civil stalking injunction" on the OM.
Is that anything like "Double-Secret Probation?"
Double-Secret Probation YES, you should expose the truth to him.
Puppy
Man you are on a roll with that video today lol
It appears that the OM is trying to buy a house IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD! W is still talking with OM by phone on almost a daily basis, but she seems to be telling him that she wants to do what's right. But now she is inviting his boy to our other daughter's birthday party. My only plan right now is to get that civil stalking order pushed through. Any other suggestions?
Tell OMW and your wife that this boy is NOT allowed in your home Ken.. PERIOD...
Tell your wife to STOP these insulting invitations and they don't FOOL YOU for a SECOND
Yes, the children's birthday parties have been used before. I think I remember WAW using the kids as an excuse to call one another. Ken didn't know how to get around that the first time around....but I think he's wising up now.
Tell OMW and your wife that this boy is NOT allowed in your home Ken.. PERIOD...
Tell your wife to STOP these insulting invitations and they don't FOOL YOU for a SECOND
for the day.
IF it was obvious I think ken would have done it already... His wife is one devious addict and a bag of chips...
I learned this morning that W and the OM went to see a lawyer yesterday. W seems a bit indecisive about what she wants to do at this point, but she is leaning towards getting a divorce.
I had a long talk with OMW this morning and let her listen to some of OM's messages to W. She was very upset by them. OM is working on buying a house in my neighborhood. OMW thinks its for her because the OM is planning to kick her out, but that doesn't make sense to me. I think HE wants to live there so my kids can be close to both W and I, because W knows how much my kids love me. I don't have any plans right now other than to get the civil stalking injunction on the OM pushed through. Then he won't be able to come near my kids and hence W much of the time. I could do a TSO also, but not sure if that would help anything.
Pick up some realty magazines to hint to the wife that you are shopping for a new home FAR AWAY from OM... lol
And good call on getting OM W involved too... That woman is terribly naieve... I hope you shocked some sense into her at last...
I am shocked everyone in town is just watching all this happen when they are so obvious about it... what kind of town is this?
Is OM like 6' 9" or something? What gives?
I would expect most of the christian community would be openly criticizing him... I would
Women don't want to be around a man the entire town disrespects Ken, but your wife is also showing a terrible about of stubborness here too...
I think you are giving her cause to doubt what she's doing... As long as you are on top of what she's imagining will happen and doing everything you can to show her that's NOT gonna happen then she will have to second guess...
if you have alot of legal on this guy and your wife's children can't be anywhere around OM that should wake her up eventually... she must be fantasizing about OM playing co-parent with her...
If your wife thinks sh'es going to move a block away and hop back and forth between two houses for example you make it clear to her you will be living in another city if she pushes for a divorce... spoil the family around the corner fantasy immediately
And make it clear to her she will never be allowed to have her kids in that new home since OM will be there... again it spoils her fantasy
If your wife thinks sh'es going to move a block away and hop back and forth between two houses for example you make it clear to her you will be living in another city if she pushes for a divorce... spoil the family around the corner fantasy immediately
I believe that's exactly what she thinks. She's almost as nutty as the OM. And the OM's W is about the next thing to stupid. She has kept her head stuck in the sand b/c she doesn't want to know, or "hear", the truth.
When you stop and realize that Ken has not had support from his church members, the Pastor, friends, family, or OM's W, he's done well not to completely give up without a fight.
I wonder if WAW & OM saw the lawyer to see where they stood (as the
adultry couple) getting custody of the kids? They should be so lucky to get visitation rights! Do you think they believe they can be the Brady Bunch? I think they should have a "dry run" to see how that works for them. Something tells me it wouldn't be TV for this bunch.
Do you think they believe they can be the Brady Bunch? I think they should have a "dry run" to see how that works for them. Something tells me it wouldn't be TV for this bunch.
The Brady's spouses were DEAD....and they had Alice.
Do you think they believe they can be the Brady Bunch? I think they should have a "dry run" to see how that works for them. Something tells me it wouldn't be TV for this bunch.
The Brady's spouses were DEAD....and they had Alice.
Good point.
Do you think they believe they can be the Brady Bunch? I think they should have a "dry run" to see how that works for them. Something tells me it wouldn't be TV for this bunch.
The Brady's spouses were DEAD....and they had Alice.
Good point.
I think what Sandi's trying to say is that they're operating under the delusion that'll be one happy, blended family, where everyone gets along swimmingly.
NEWSFLASH: That only works on sitcoms.
The POINT is that Ken you need to make it crystal clear to your wife that whatever deluded fantasy she's envisioning is NOT going to happen... It reads like you are trapping stuff she's typing so you are in the know here... Whatever she thinks is going to happen just detail out what she believes and tehn tell her it will absolutely NOT be the case... by LAW and CHOICE you will not accept it ...
Keep destroying those fantasies...
I would get a background check on OM...
This guy could be a child molester for all you know... If he's pushing this hard I would make a case for his potential as a sex offender to the police...
Thanks for that advice. I will probably get a background check on him.
READY FOR A LITTLE DRAMA?: I had the day off, so W decided to leave the kids with me and go to work. (She works in a private lab owned by a fellow church member. Sometimes she works by herself if the owner is not there.) Around lunch time, I got the bright idea to go there and surprise her, and when I arrived, my oldest daughter peeked into the window and saw guess who - that's right, the OM talking with her. (We also saw his truck outside.) We went in and the OM had run off to hide in the bathroom. My oldest daughter said, "Mommy why is the bathroom light on and the door locked?" I didn't say anything. Maybe I should have, I don't know.
When we left, I asked W, "Who's truck is that?" She said, "I don't know." I took the kids to lunch (W already had lunch) and took the oldest daughter back over to her work, but by then, OM was gone and W had been trying to find us. (She drove to the restaurant and went back to work.)
So why didn't you pull a Bruce Willis and shoot through the door?
Ken I would have walked to the door, told him he was a coward and challenged him to come out...
I am wondering why he was HIDING from you? This is not consistent with him so far... why was he hiding ... any ideas Ken?
Sorry Ken, I can't stop thinking about this... WHy would he HIDE? He's been quite overt up to this point... why HIDE NOW?
Ken go right to your wife today and say this :
Don't think I'm an idiot, I know who's truck that was and I know what coward was in the bathroom... Very brave man he is... Hiding in the bathroom from children... This is your idea of a romantic fantasy?
And LAUGH AT HER... Then walk away still laughing...
DO IT.. It will help nail that fantasy again... And give you more credit in teh process showing her you aren't an idiot.. she might think right now she's outsmarted you
Go make it clear you are a bright guy and that OM is a coward... THe above should be fine
And last point...when you walk away, she will very likley say something.. IGNORE it... She will bait you and tell you he's brave and this and that.. just keep laughing and walk away... do NOT even LOOK at her.. just laugh and laugh and walk away to your kids.. give them a big hug
Ken.. tell this church member OM was there... make sure church member knows this guy is a creep and that he's pursuing your wife.. ask the guy to inform your wife OM is no longer allowed on the premises or she will be fired...
And you can angle it that he was distracting her from her work... And he's been there before... Tell the church member he's NOT helping her get her work done that's for sure... HOPEFULLY this church member has the balls to support you and he will tell your wife OM is banned from the lab
BOOM! Exposure in the workplace..
make sure the Church member knows OM's been there before.. tell him you are getting sick and tired of visiting yoru wife and finding that guy sneaking around and hiding in the bathroom
Want more lines to try out?
I am not an idiot, and i know who was hiding in that bathroom today... He may be able to hide his cowardly ass in the toilet but he can't hide his truck... THIS is the man who's going to protect you? This is the man who's goign to protect children when someone breaks into your home? He's HIDING in the TOILET... That's your brave romantic fantasy today... HIDING in teh TOILET... He's AFRAID of me... HE's afraid of me and children... What a coward...
And BURST into laughter and walk away to give your kids a hug
And Ken.. when you contact that church member who owns the lab... take him to dinner, don't ask him to ban OM from the lab on the phone... meet him face to face... Tell him OM was hiding in the toilet too...
Why on earth was he HIDING? lol
I can't get that... I keep thinking and nothing's happening there... He talks to her in church... Show's no fear at all... Been at work before to talk to her... Why HIDE?
The only thing I can think of is he had his pants at his ankles or something like that... Which is unlikley... I just can't come up with a feasible explanation...
Ken go right to your wife today and say this :
Don't think I'm an idiot, I know who's truck that was and I know what coward was in the bathroom... Very brave man he is... Hiding in the bathroom from children... This is your idea of a romantic fantasy?
And LAUGH AT HER... Then walk away still laughing...
DO IT.. It will help nail that fantasy again... And give you more credit in teh process showing her you aren't an idiot.. she might think right now she's outsmarted you
Go make it clear you are a bright guy and that OM is a coward... THe above should be fine
This is a GREAT idea!!!
Puppy
The only thing I can think of is he had his pants at his ankles or something like that... Which is unlikley... I just can't come up with a feasible explanation...
I think he had a work in progress, if you KWIM. I doubt he was hidding from Ken, but he heard the door and didn't know who was coming in.
I did not realize the business was owned by a church member. If the church was informed of the misconduct of WAW & OM, then that is even more baffling why she has not been released of her job.
I agree with Allen, Ken. I think you should have a one on one with her boss and inform him of the many times OM has imposed on her during working hours. I'm trying to remember, but seems like she did get concerned when she thought you would tell boss or go to workplace.....there was something in past posts that I recall her worried about her job. I think it is a key point to hit.
The other reason he might have been hiding is that, let's face it: It's one thing to hide among a crowd of people, where Ken is not likely to make a scene, like at church. It's a different story to actually have to deal with someone one on one!
OK, the first one aobut him not knowing who was coming in... That's fine, but as soon as he heard it was Ken he would normally have come out... He just hid in there until you left right Ken?
I dunno... I guess maybe he is afraid of you Ken...
Ken, how heavy is this guy? Are you like within ass-kicking range of this guy? Would he be physically afraid of you?
I don't know that he was hiding from Ken in the respect y'all are suggesting. I think it's more likely Ken's wife was trying to avoid getting busted and said, "Get in there so my husband doesn't see you." Obviously she was dissembling when asked whose truck it was. We know he doesn't mind making a scene, so I'm guessing it was her trying to avoid one.
But OM CHOSE to HIDE... He's never felt the need to do so... And its not in his character to hide or to listen to what Ken's wife thinks
I'm not sure why the OM was hiding. I think he and W just wanted to avoid a scene. He is significantly bigger than me, so he wouldn't be afraid of me physically.
Strangely, my wife brought me home a nice meal today. She has been trying to be nice lately.
Ken go right to your wife today and say this :
Don't think I'm an idiot, I know who's truck that was and I know what coward was in the bathroom... Very brave man he is... Hiding in the bathroom from children... This is your idea of a romantic fantasy?
I went to W and said these words. She didn't respond.
Later I got sucked into R talk. She is very intent on getting a divorce and plans to get me the paperwork sometime this week. She goes on and on about how done we are and how the damage has been done. She said it wouldn't even matter if I became the perfect husband. I guess her memories of bad moments is the problem.
I cannot express how much I have appreciated all the help I have received on here. Allen, you are AWESOME and I admire your dedication to helping people in situations like mine. After the talk I had with W last night, I feel more hopeless about our sitch than ever. She is very DETERMINED to end our marriage. Well at least no one can say I didn't try.
I still plan to get the stalking order on the OM just because I can't stand the thought of him being around my beautiful daughters. But other than that, I really feel like throwing in the towel. I think she is bringing me the divorce papers this week.
I went to W and said these words. She didn't respond.
. . .
Later I got sucked into R talk. . .
Interesting, how your wife is able to NOT respond to baiting, but you cannot seem to avoid it.
Puppy
Ken, you need to STOP listening to your wife's BS...
She's NOT ready for divorce and you need to protect her and those kids from this guy...
We have TOLD you to STOP getting sucked into that garbage.. WALK AWAY we say over and over...
Dude, if they don't want a SCENE them you MAKE ONE... do NOT give them what THEY WANT... THAT is how you BEAT this thing is to LOOK for the weakness and HIT IT AS HARD AS YOU CAN
Don't give up yet man... you need to STOP listening to what your wife says ... SH'es TRYING to SCARE you OFF...
DO NOT GIVE UP man... SHe's TALKING DETERMINED but she is NOT EDUCATED on this... YOU ARE... Divorce is going to RUIN these kids and OM is going to USE your wife and THROW her AWAY .. just like he is doing with HIS WIFE... LOOK at how he's treating HIS WIFE... THAT's how HE will TREAT YOURS... you WANT THAT?
If you WANT im to use your wife and toss her away then sure... Go ahead and ruin those kids and let him ruin your family dude... If he's HIDING you EXPOSE it...
Talk to the lab owner... we gave you advice... you IGNORED it and went to talk to your WIFE INSTEAD
I didn't expect your wife to respond to what you said... She might have baited you into an argument but guess what... she WAITED and hit you LATER and you FELL for it...
STOP THAT
Talking about the R on the WAS terms is the best way to get yourself discouraged - and depressed. I learned that early on!
Ditto...
Thanks Sunny... KEN, you need to STOP listening to your wife's BS... She's TRYING to SCARE YOU OFF
if you get a court order keeping the OM away from her kids you FORCE her to CHOOSE between her kids and OM... She will KNOW she can't keep them in her home, even on weekends... That you will have full custody... that is a HUGE hit for you if you can get that... It will really take the wind out of her sails...
STOP TALKING with her... SHe's an ADDICT
Yeah - remember....don't believe what you hear! Even my FT said that.
Sounds like you are quite discouraged. R talk will do that to you. Much of the advice you have been given has been offered with the intention of protecting you and your feelings as well as attacking the A. Don't be tempted to wallow, hug your girls, and keep going.
Having canned responses to some of the things I hear over and over, really helps.
For example:
W: Our M is doomed. I want a D.
Ken: I do not want a D. I will not help you do that. (Exit, Walk away, do not discuss it any further)
You must focus on not engaging in convo w/ her. Make your point and go. She will use anything more than that to justify her behavior. You are giving her tons of ammo.
Read Seeing red's post today on hindsight.
You have been talking about RO's for awhile now. Take care of it! Let go of the fear of pushing her to OM. Odds are, if you handle this properly, you will push her to OM and that will prove to be a miserable choice for her w/ awful consequences and the A will end. All of your dilly-dallying around is prolonging things. A long time ago I told you your sitch was a lot like the example sitch Dr Harley uses (Sue greg Jon)in "Surviving an Affair". Did you ever read it?
By the way, Ken, how do you think she is going to pay for the D paperwork? Make sure that you have protected your money.
The reason I haven't gone to the lab owner is that she says she will lose her job and that it will be MY fault. (I responded that it would be her and OM's fault.) Plus as long as she stays, we really need the money.
Thanks bluestar about the advice to protect my finances. I noticed W has a new bank account and has puts some of her money into it. When I confronted her about it, she says she is saving up. But of course she could have just used our savings account. Last night, she said she would not be putting any more of HER money into our account. (I don't really buy much, so there's really no reason for that.) I think its time for me to start putting my checks into a new account too.
uhhh Ken?
Read your last post....
Plus as long as she stays, we really need the money.
and then you say:
I noticed W has a new bank account and has puts some of her money into it.
So which is more important at the moment????????
I think its time for me to start putting my checks into a new account too.
Good move! And consider taking her off of any credit accts she is a signer on or that you have jointly. Close the joint bank acct. I thought you did this ages ago.
I will post on the hindsight thread later but one of things I wish I had done was to expose stronger at H's work. I was afraid he would lose our contracts and it would hurt our business. He ended up trashing the business thru neglect anyway. Did you check your credit reports? Probably time to do that again.
Ken, if your wife is stockpiling EXPOSE to the lab owner ... She's not putting her money into yoru home anyhow she's saving up for HERSELF...
If the money is going to support her affair END the income by EXPOSING the affair to the lab owner.. NOW
I noticed W has a new bank account and has puts some of her money into it. When I confronted her about it, she says she is saving up. But of course she could have just used our savings account. Last night, she said she would not be putting any more of HER money into our account. (I don't really buy much, so there's really no reason for that.) I think its time for me to start putting my checks into a new account too.
Frankly, considering everything that's happened already, Ken, I'm kind of STUNNED that you haven't already done this.
Puppy
Plus as long as she stays, we really need the money
she said she would not be putting any more of HER money into our account. (I don't really buy much, so there's really no reason for that.)
I don't understand. You need the money.....but it's not necessary for her to contribute what she makes to the family account?
If she leaves to be with OM....you better expose her to her boss! What or how would that make any difference to your income if she's with OM.......or if she's keeping her money in a little pot waiting for the right time to leave.
Be strong, Ken! Time to think with your head and not your heart. Doing practical things for yourself will help you feel stronger and more confident and able to make the real changes necessary FOR YOU that help in GAL!
Ken, if she's just squirreling her money away adn making you pay for her support, your home, and the kids then EXPOSE to her boss at work... SHe's just using the income to support infidelity so turn it off at the source
If she gets fired she made her bed... You can always make a private deal with her boss to rehire her once OM has gone but not tell your wife...
UPDATE: I haven't posted here for several days. I guess I felt like giving up. She went to get the divorce papers but hasn't filled them out yet. Then yesterday and today, she has been fighting with the OM. She is very angry with him because she doesn't want to do things the way he is suggesting and she has asked him not to contact her more or come to her work. She is even interested in getting a stalking injunction against him if he can't stay away this time. But she wants to wait and see if he tries to come to her work again. And he says that he doesn't want to contact her anymore after seeing another side of her (yelling). Nevertheless, she tells me that our problem is not about him and she is still not interested in reconciliation and she still plans on filing for divorce.
UPDATE: I haven't posted here for several days. I guess I felt like giving up. She went to get the divorce papers but hasn't filled them out yet. Then yesterday and today, she has been fighting with the OM. She is very angry with him because she doesn't want to do things the way he is suggesting and she has asked him not to contact her more or come to her work. She is even interested in getting a stalking injunction against him if he can't stay away this time. But she wants to wait and see if he tries to come to her work again. And he says that he doesn't want to contact her anymore after seeing another side of her (yelling). Nevertheless, she tells me that our problem is not about him and she is still not interested in reconciliation and she still plans on filing for divorce.
Ken, all cheaters say that! It would ruin their rationalization process for doing what they've done if they actually admitted the problem was the OP. You can't argue that with them though.
From the FIRST PAGE of Divorce Remedy
"I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore." "We got married for all the wrong reasons." "I'm not attracted to you anymore." "Why can't you admit that we just made a mistake?" "My affair isn't the reason our marriage isn't working." "I never really loved you in the first place." "It's time to tell the kids it's over."
Ken your wife has probably said ALL of this word for word... It's CLASSIC wayward script.
Ignore it and let them fight... That's GOOD...
How are you getting him telling you that he doens't want to ahve anything to do with her anymore?
Is that something he's telling HER or are you chit chatting wtih this creep?
Okay, let's say you can see yourself giving up.......describe what that picture looks like. Do you mean that as in "dropping the rope", beating her to the D papers......or how?
Something is holding her back from filling out those papers.
I hope she sees OM in all his true colors.....and I hope he sees her new side she's kept hidden. I tell ya.....reality just sucks when having an A!
The more stress Ken adds to her life the more she's gonna rail on OM since Ken isnt' letting her in to rage at him... RIGHT KEN?
Right Allen.
Sandi, by "giving up", I meant becoming indifferent about the situation and not trying to stop their phone contact anymore, not pursuing the civil stalking injunction on OM, and just deciding to accept the divorce if she brings me the papers. I did this because W has not budged from her position for a year now and still has the same attitude (or worse) towards me even though I mostly leave her alone now.
OM called ME several times in desperation yesterday and today because W didn't want to talk with him. After I vented on him a bit about "thanks for ruining my life, etc.", he begged for me to put her on the phone, which normally I would have refused, but since I didn't care anymore with the impending divorce, I offered the phone to her and she refused! He has tried calling about twenty times today and yesterday. And W is telling me everything that is going on!
She told me about a day when OM went to her work and begged her for 5 and a half hours to say she wanted him to stay and not move (like he promised me). She finally said ok and he bought another house here and made arrangements to stay.
OMW told me in church today that OM was kicking her out of the house this coming week. But now after W's fight with OM, I doubt that will happen. OM offered to pay for OUR divorce and she refused because then she would feel obligated to marry him and she's not sure that's what she wants. When he kept insisting, that's when she started to get mad at him. I heard her YELLING very loud at him on the phone.
I believe she has been having doubts about his character lately. She is now telling me that he is a liar and a manipulator (like I told her from the very beginning). But I told her that I am glad she is finally seeing it. She is now complaining about things that he did way back at the beginning of their relationship (which I have never seen her do till today). She even did a background search on him yesterday, saying it was to prove to me that he is not a danger to our kids like I implied, but didn't find out anything she didn't already know.
Today, she said she doesn't want to have anything to do with him and if I see her going back to him to please "bind me up or smack me over the head with a two-by-four!" I'm just waiting to see what W does now. I think she will still file for divorce in a day or two. She says, "I don't want you and I don't want him!" I just find it interesting that now that I have become so indifferent, that it appears they are really breaking it off this time.
I just find it interesting that now that I have become so indifferent, that it appears they are really breaking it off this time.
You aren't indifferent Ken, you are detached. This is what we've been telling you to do for months and months and months and months...
Once you detach it is a LOT easier to combat an affair and a wayward partner.
I wouldn't count my blessings just yet. However. I doubt your wife will pursue divorce. She may start the process, but it does take some time and she has children to think about. I can't imagine her going it alone Ken, she's way too immature to do that.
And telling OM "Thanks for ruining my life" is NOT helping your situation.
"Stay away from my wife you sleazy creep" works a lot better.
And your wife or you not finding anything with a background check does NOT mean he's safe around children. It just means he hasn't been CAUGHT and CONVICTED. If he's THIS bad around adults can you imagine how he will be with kids? Do you think someone this selfish and manipulative should be parenting children? Even as a step-parent he would have a lot of influence.
She needs time to cool off, Ken. It's too much drama and emotion to think clearly right now. She's going to need some time to decompress and process - maybe even weeks or months.
Continue to give her space and continue your GALing. Once she gets through her withdrawal, she may start to think clearly and gravitate back toward you.
If she does press the divorce issue, make HER be the bad guy. You can't stop her from filing, but you can contest it, if that's what you want. And you can always tell your kids later, "I FOUGHT for our family. Your mother's the one who destroyed it."
Exactly Ken... You don't press for D... Leave your wife to do all that work and do NOT encourage her.
Just sit back and leave it alone. Your wife is going to probably try initially to pursue divorce to see if you pick up on it and help her along.
Your wife's going to be in a lot of pain soon if OM leaves finally and she lets go of that nonsense at last... Withdrawal can be quite painful and she will very likely think Divorce will end all that... It won't... It's her pain as a result of HER choices.
Just do your own thing and walk away when she talks divorce. If she wants to be honest about OM and cry on your shoulder you listen but don't hold her hand or any of that crap. Its GOOD for her to open up to you about her affair, this is how you two will bond again... But you can't get sucked into it Ken... you need to stay DETACHED and in control... Your wife is NOT running this marriage right now YOU are and that's how it SHOULD be until your wife is educated to make healthy choices for herself and her whole family... She's a walking hand grenade right now and shouldn't be making any of her decisions.
Just keep doin what you're doin.. Protecting your family, speaking up about the OM to everyone, and protesting your wife's treatment of her home and family...
And I would reccomend you continue to pursue the stalking injunction... As long as OM is anyway involved here you need to protect these kids... Don't back out on this.. You are a father too...
God, this OM sounds really PATHETIC!!!
Puppy
Ken please don't stop posting b/c we've been with you for a while now. If we were not interested...if we didn't care, then that would be different....but we do care. So many folks leave the board and we never know what happened. That's a terrible feeling when you've shared a great deal of time in that person's life.
I know you are tired and depressed. You believe in God, Ken...so trust in Him to hold you up. Think about the story of the footprints in the sand.
Stay in touch with us and let us know how you and the children are doing even if it's just a couple of words. Hope you can give us an update on how things have been the past couple of days.
Thanks Sandi. I know that you guys care and I very much appreciate all the help you have given me. W seems to have finally broken it off with OM now, but she still seems quite uninterested in reconciliation. In fact, the day after she broke it off with OM, she was working on the divorce paperwork. She says she doesn't want him and she doesn't want me. So I have sort of accepted my fate. I'm really not worried about it anymore. I know that God has a plan for my life and I can move on.
Don't pay her any mind ken... she's in withdrawal and needs time.
Just keep doing what you've been doing Ken. GAL, 180's, etc. That's really all for you anyway, not for her. Right now, she's in withdrawl. You can't take anything she's saying or doing seriously. You might still have a chance. Just be strong, ignore her.
Ken,
What if what His plan is, is for you to fight for your marriage?
Puppy
What if what His plan is, is for you to fight for your marriage?
Yeah, me and God have these one-sided discussions all of the time lately with only me doing the talking.
I'm pretty sure he wants me to be stronger (mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) and accept responsibility for all of my choices and actions.
The rest of it is fuzzy for me. God has a plan for me, but I don't think it involves me not having to make choices and be responsible.
Not that he ever said this to me in one of those loud booming voices from a burning bush or anything.
Man, wouldn't THAT be convenient and helpful!!
Hi guys --
Please start a new thread. This thread is getting a bit too long, so I'm locking it. Shorter threads improve the speed and flow of this online community.
Thanks.