For the past month, since my wife announce she wanted to separate due to my behavior. I have done everything possible so I could become a better person and an even greater husband. After much rejection from her toward me and the idea of continuing the relationship, I then began the LRT. For the past week I have followed the LRT and things seemed to get better between us when it came to communication.
I knew all along that she was seeking "advice" from a guy at work. Then I was told by a friend of mine who is also a co-work that they talk all the time. I seen the phone records while trying to figure out why phone bill was so high that the two talked quite often. She openly said she did speak with him and there was nothing to it that I could trust her. She never said when or how often she spoke to him on the phone. One day the OM W calls my wife and starts yelling at her for carrying on conversations with her H. My wife told me she told the W that there is nothing going on she was only seeking advice and there was no "hidden agenda." My wife told me about that call. I told my wife it was probably not a good idea to continue the calls if his W threatened to hurt you ect. I thought my wife understood but she did not stop.
I inquired to my friend she worked with from his perspective how does it look. He said he does not think anything is going on other than they are good friends. He went on to say this guy is just being himself and she is always talking to him and walking up to him.
According to my friend this OM is 10 years older than her and is married (not happily) has 2 children. He is very obnoxious and is borderline alcoholic. Everything my wife despises. So I was OK if they talked over the phone, I was in no position to approach her about it anyway since we are having such issues.
Today My wife, spontaneously, said she was going to visit her father. Got all dolled up and left. Usually she would txt me to let me know when had arrived there but she did not. It was taking an extra long time. I was concerned for her well being so I called her. She said she was not there yet that there was a lot of traffic and she will let me know when she gets there. It was very quite in the background. I asked where about was she and she simply replied "I will let you know when I am there and hung up." About 15 min later she txt me she was there. It took her 55 min to get there when it is normally a 20 min trip.
Later I called but she failed to answer. I had to pass a message on to her. So I called her father's phone so he could let her know but there was no answer. So I called her father's GF so she can pass on the message. Turned out her father was there so I spoke with him and he said he did not know she was suppose to be out there that he was sleeping and I had just woke him up.
I txt her and asked her to call that it was important. She did call but seemed to have more than an attitude than usual. I told her what I had to say. The proceeded to ask "how is it going?" she said she was just standing there talking to her father which I knew was a lie. So I asked "when do you think you'll be home" she said "I am not sure I will let you know" I said is a pleasant voice "maybe you should come home now" she said "I will come home when I am ready" I then calmly told her "I know you are not with your father because I tried to pass a message on to you and he said you were not there and he did not expect you." She said "Go worry about the other issue" I said "I am worried about you, my wife" she said again "go worry about the other issue" and I repeated what I said, then she hung up.
I sent her a txt message letting her know I am not upset, that I trust her, to be careful and return home safe and that I was heading out to work. She has not said anything in return and has yet to come home.
I am concerned for her safety.
You need to be concerned that she's having an affair.
You told her you TRUST her??? WTF??? You just caught her CHEATING on you, and lying to you about it!!
Puppy
Woah.... so many red lights... mind.... can't... think.
OK
1. Don't enable your wife when she's lying to you.
2. Don't TRUST your wife when she's lying to you.
3. Don't IGNORE a borderline alcoholic hanging around your wife and talking to her all the time.
4. Don't ignore a man and woman on the phone in secret all the time when they both have marriages in trouble... these are HUGE RED LIGHTS...
Marriage is about trust yes, but its ALSO about RESPECT.
a. Trust your wife to remain falthful.
b. Respect your husband enough not to socialize in secret with obnoxious alcoholics.
When B is ignored, you have to let A go to... sorry... its basic mathematics.
When respect to YOU goes out the window, TRUSTING her has to go out the window too...
This isn't the end of your marriage sir, but you have got to get on DAMAGE CONTROL -- NOW
1. Stop deluding yourself - your wife is NOT loyal to you right now
2. Stop letting OTHER men talk to her while her marriage is in trouble... they are PREDATORS and YOU are supposed to PROTECT her.. not let her socialize in secret with DRUNKS.
3. Stop thinking being NICE is going to move her to you.. it won't... not by a long shot... Y
4. You need to get in the middle of those two, and put a STOP to the affair... NOW before it escalates... disease, pregnancy, violence... divorce is the least of your worries.
DO NOT TRUST HER... she's showing all the key indicators of romantic addiction.
Where did you get the idea that your wife would get good advice from a unhappily married borderline alcoholic man who thinks its ok to talk in private with a confused woman with marital problems?
This guy is NOT giong to give her anything that's going to HELP her... he likley wouldn't give her good advice even if he in the off chance HAD any... he's moving IN on your WIFE if he hasn't already.
DAMAGE CONTROL TIME.
Get this guy's address.
Go to his HOME, wait til he LEAVEs and talk to his wife.
Tell her you think they are possibly having an affair.
Tell her you want him to stay AWAY from your wife.
Tell her EVERYTHING you KNOW.
Tell her that you would appreciate her keeping you informed.
Wait for this man to come home.
Meet him and tell him in FRONT of his WIFE you don't him to STAY away from your WIFE.
Leave quietly.
Your wife is going to BLAST you.
Your wife is going to thrash and throw a tantrum.
Your wife will get over it.
Get a VERY GOOD Family Therapist and get her IN there ASAP.
I knew all along that she was seeking "advice" from a guy at work.
Then I was told by a friend of mine who is also a co-work that they talk all the time. I seen the phone records while trying to figure out why phone bill was so high that the two talked quite often.
Why would you let her go to this guy for advice? He isn't a therapist... if you are gonig to PAY for her to get help, send her to a professional Family Therapist...
I inquired to my friend she worked with from his perspective how does it look. He said he does not think anything is going on other than they are good friends. He went on to say this guy is just being himself and she is always talking to him and walking up to him.
"Good friends".. ya right... Is your friend WAITNG for soemthing to be gonig on before he decides to tell you to get your arse into work and run damage control?
According to my friend this OM is 10 years older than her and is married (not happily) has 2 children. He is very obnoxious and is borderline alcoholic. Everything my wife despises. So I was OK if they talked over the phone, I was in no position to approach her about it anyway since we are having such issues.
Hold it... let me type this out again for you :
A. This OM is married (not happily) ... very obnoxious and is borderline alcoholic.
B. I was OK if they talked over the phone.
Now, call me crazy, but I don't follow your logic here...
My worry is for you OIN, you see, you are going to let her walk all OVER you for months... I can read it in your post here... you NEED to get your head out of that mindset and learn you are dealing with a VERY ADDICTIVE AFFAIR...
Your wife needs a husband, and husbands do NOT let their wives walk all over them, nor should a wife let her husband walk all over her...
You need to muscle down here and assert some boundaries.. FAST... This post worries me a lot... not just from the affair, but your current disposition in reacting to it... I am worried you are going to go through the ringer over this woman for a LONG time and this affair sounds early on.. you CAN put a STOP to this EARLY, but you need to muscle down and get tough.. OK?
Here is a link to my story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1949792#Post1949792I never just her in the past due to my insecurities. She was a wonderful girl who I just treated so badly. So when I knew she made these phone calls I was upset yes, but I felt that if I confronted her about them that she would feel that I could not trust her and therefore the cycle would continue. So I wanted to show her I do trust her and that the BS of the past is over.
UPDATE:
She did eventually come home and refused to talk about the situation. She told me she "would do whatever she wants when ever she wants" I use to be a controlling person so I did not say anything. I asked her "Why did you feel the need to lie to me" she did not say anything. She was more upset about the fact I called off of work. I told her I was concerned about her and she said "I can take care of myself" I then said "I am not sure what is going on here, I have been nothing but kind to you and take care of you showing you that our relationship can indeed be better" she said "I would have left already but I am co-owner of this house and I have nowhere else to go right now, I am just trying to co-exist, people keep telling me I need to get out of this situation" I said "these people you think you can trust are saying things about you and eventually they get back to me, I care for you and don't want to see you go through this" She then asked me to explain, so I gave her some samples of what I heard.
She put her hair up and put some chap stick on and told me that this marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper and that there is nothing I can do to make up for all the wrong I done.
I expressed I understood why she would say that but know I still care about this marriage. She then walked back down stairs grabbed her purse and walked out the door. Said she needed to get away (after already being gone for 4 hours) then she once again left.
I gave her time to cool off and eventually txt her that she should return home. She said that she would in a little bit and that I should had just gone to work.
as I type this she just walked back in the door...after being gone for nearly 2 hours.
She's having an affair man.. I am sorry.
All the signs are there... the lies, the rebelliousness, the dissappearing acts, the adamant attitude that the marriage is over and disrespect for your history together... its ALL there.
I am going to say this, and you need to hear me.
Letting her walk all over you right now is NOT going to bring her back.
I am assuming you are HERE becuase you want to save this thing.
Despite your controlling past, despite your not trusting her in the past, DOING the OPPOSITE while she is in an AFFAIR is NOT going to make things BETTER... TRUSTING her and being NICE to her and letting her do what SHE WANTS is going to make things a LOT WORSE... for you AND for her...
You need to cofront OM in his home with his wife and tell him to STAY AWAY from your WIFE...
I know its going over your wife's head, but you need to do it.
You need to get used to your wife disrespecting you until she's clean.
Being NICE is NOT helping you right now, it's HURTING you and your chances of her coming BACK.
So last night OM W calls and tells my wife to stop calling her H, as she had done in the past, and my W failed to heed her word. I started to talk to OM W and she pretty much gathers the same. She is not sure to what extent they are having a relationship for something is going on.
My W wont talk to me about she is being very bitter and tells me that our marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper at this point and she was just trying to co-exist with me. She said a lot of hurtful things.
I ended up calling OM. We spoke for nearly 2 hours about how this all happened. According to him it is nothing more than them venting to each other. My W seems to be painting a terrible picture of me and he is entertaining her thoughts. I know she has become emotionally attached to him but I am still uncertain if it has become physical. Yesterday was the first day she had left the house to meet up with him. Up till then she was going to and returning from work during her usually times and other than that we spend all other hours together.
My W has shut me out she wont talk to me and won't reason with me and from what I was told this OM has now returned back home and "wants to keep his family together." I told me something so innocent was blown way out of proportion ect and he has to make things right and he will turn my W away from now on and encourage her to work it out with me ect.
Now this morning my W wakes up and is refusing to talk to me. She thinks I took her cellphone away from her, when in reality she misplaced it. She then leaves without telling me where she is going and when I called her she said she had just got a new service on a new cell phone.
The OM W had turned off service to his phone.
Woah.. a few points... so many...
1. Do NOT believe they will stop communicating.
2. IGNORE what your wife is saying right now. she has an addiction
3. IGNORE yoru wife's THEATS
4. IGNORE yoru wife's TANTRUMS
5. Do NOT ARGUE with your wife right now... just sidestep it like you would sidestep arguing with a child... you don't argue with your kids, you set a boundary and END the convo.
6. Keep in VERY CLOSE contact with OM W right now... tell her you WANT her to keep you FULLY informed and that you would do the same for her
7. This OM has been sneaking around with your WIFE, do NOT TRUST HIM...
8. You are combatting this well so far, exposure and collecting intel, as well as confronting OM and contacting OMW, excellent work!
9. Keep in touch with OMW, send her some flowers an an apology on behalf of your wife.
10. I do NOT believe its not physical at this point. Do NOT trust OM ... he's playing you.
11. Your wife is just throwing a fit because you ruined her FUN... do NOT cave... stand up for yourself and just hold fast... do NOT argue with her.. she will BAIT you into a fight... do NOT fight her...
12. Visit OMW's place and get to know her. Make sure you text OM to give him a heads up... make GOOD friends with this woman, she's going to be your intel here...
If OMW tells you OM is gone out, and your wife is gone out... guess what?
You need to share a LOTt of info wih OMW, keep in close touch with her... be VERY NICe to her, she's going to save your marriage...
OH, I forgot to mention.
Text OM, tell him outright you do NOT want him to talk at ALL with your wife.. hes not a family therapist and is NOT qualified to advise her... tell him to go HOME and work on his probelms at HOME... stop wasting time with your wife... He's trashing his marriage when he talks to your wife.
Tell him to go HOMe and NEVER talk to your wife again.
Call your buddy at work, update him and make sure he keeps a CLOSE EYE on both of them and keeps you in the loop.
Send him a gift as well... he's going to save your marriage.
I spoke to OM and OM W at same time on speaker phone and he said as stated above. Also as I mentioned my wife left this morning and decided she would sign up for her own mobile service and now she will not share with me that mobile number (senseless).
Throughout this whole situation I have remained in contact with my friend from their work and from his observations he said it was nothing more than a friendship. My friend asked around and others said the same thing. OMW has two brothers that work in same facility and they too asked around and got same response "Yeah they are buddy buddy but I don't think anything is going on."
My friend said they just talk, she is not "clingy" toward him, they just talk a lot. He nor anyone else there seen any of the two initiate physical contact such as a hug or even a pat on the back.
OMW has told me she will hunt my wife down and beat the crap out of her for a lack of other terms.
It is now that much harder that she now has separate phone line.
How do you talk to someone and try to make it work when in the person's mind the marriage is over?
A few more questions I have...
- Do I now start to push for separation?
- She has not wore her ring in over 2 weeks. Do I now stop wearing mine?
- Do I still continue with the LRT? and how do I implement it in such a situation.
It is tough to sit back and not speak up but anytime I do she brings up the past or just shuts me out. I am afraid no matter what I do it will simply push her to pursue OM more. If I carry on with my own life she then thinks I no longer care and so she will look to him for support once again. If I express my feelings she gets annoyed or defensive and turns into a monster. She has no where else to go for now so we are forced to live together. She also refuses to sit down and go over the paperwork when I bring it up because that is all she wants right now. She just tells me "I will take care of the paper work and serve it to you" rather than acknowledge my efforts to handle this like adults.
As I had mentioned despite the past month or being an emotional roller coaster, up till yesterday it seemed we were co-existing quite well, she spoke future tense and all was well considering the situation then she ended up doing this.
1. IGNORE your wife telling you the marriage is over... its meaningless... ask mb28 on here how many times her husband has tried to drive her away ... just IGNROE what your WIFE is TELLING YOU
2. I still don't trust OM... he isn't giong to be honest with his wife in teh room, sorry to say...
3. They may just be VERY good at looking professional at work
4. Your wife is showing ALL the signs of an affair taking place... physical or at LEAST an emotional affair
5. Never mind your wife right now, you spoiled her affair on her... sh'es NOT going to be NICE to you right now... you just need to suck it up and keep acting responsibly like you have been
6. Just learn to shut her OUT when she's being childish and ranting... it takes practice.. do NOT engage immature commentary.. IGNORE it.
KEEP your ring ON
Do NOT separate.. fight taht at ALL costs
IGNORE her taking her ring off... she wanted the OM.. its a sign of an affair
I reccomend a different technique calle Ghandi.. its on this forum a fair bit, i will add more later...
Do NOT talk about your marriage with her right now... give her space to process you challenging her affair... but do NOT allow the affair to happen.. get in the MIDDLE of it as MUCH as you CAN
Make sure EVERYONE knows you caught her lying and ask everyone you TRUST to keep their eyes on her.
Do NOT talk about your feelings right now. Do NOT talk to hr right now about anything except your kids (if any)
Give her some space, but do NOT let her go near OM at ALL... do NOT trust her, but do NOT bother her either.
I cannot stop her from going to work and communicating with the person. As of right now I strongly believe it is an emotional affair and hopefully I have stepped in just in time before it become something more. I am not sure how I can continue to get in the middle of the affair when now she has her own phone service and she could just technically just leave when she wants if I prevent her from doing so, it's controlling or restraining her and when I leave for work she can leave then and meet up.
I will do my best to just ignore everything about her right now and see how she comes around. We do not have children but we have a dog who we treat like a child and we both are attached too. She threw that in my face as well "You can have anything I just want the dog."
Today she has said "I want to sell the house" to "You can have the house" to "You can have anything you want just write it down I just want out."
I know what I've done in the past brought her to this point and I worked on me and then started to focus on us. Now not only am I fighting with the past and saving the marriage I am now battling the OM for her affection. For the past month besides talking to each other and going places together she has shut me out completely.
you CAN stop her by telling HIM to stay away from her and getting your FRIENDS to watch them... AND his damn wife...
its called INFLUENCE... you exert as MUCH as you CAN on them to keep a DISTANCE... SHE may not listen toyou, but if HE knows he's being watched if HE knows his wife will turf his ass, and if he knows YOU are watching him... he may just tell her to keep away from him... it is called influence.
DO you have a lot of male friends? As a GROUP you pay a visit t his home and sit him down and tell him to LEAVE your WIFE ALONE... do NOT SPEAK with her...
If you get six big guys in his HOUSE pounding on his door telling him IN his WIFE's presence HUMILIATING him in PUBLIC to LEAVE your WIFE ALONE... he'll likely leave her alone...
its not just YOU, you need to get your posse together dude.
Never mind the phone... she can get her own service it don't matter.
STOP STOP STOP listening to what hse's SAYING righ tnow... MWD says in her FIRST PAGE of divorce remedy that your wpouse is giong to throw JUNK at you and to iGNORE IT.
No kids is ok, it means you are doin less damage to your home. you are NOT competing with this guy, this is YOUR wife and YOUR home... you tell him to BACK OFF and LEAVE her ALONE
You get EVERYONE you can to SUPPORT you in keeping a VERY CLOSE EYE on your wife ....do EVERYTHING you CAN to keep him away from your wife... you can't control your wife, but you can INFLUENCE HIM...
Does OM have kids?
Start campaigning his home, put up flyers all over his neighbourhood if you have to.... don't do anything without OMW's input though.. you don't want to tick her off
If you look at my display name that should give some indication of what my career is...I got a posse alright
He does have a kid (5 yo boy) and that is the reason why he returned home today because he doe snot want to lose his family. His wife has had it with him and is pushing divorce herself which might cause him to pursue my wife even more so.
I plan on calling the OMW again tonight and letting her know my intentions and have her push hard on her end to expose them as much as she can.
I will keep you updated, thanks for the advice and keep it coming.
Try to HELP the wife reconsider... become friends with her... help her work with her husband...
Try NOT to engage the OM, I would imagine that's too stressful for you to handle well.. you will likely do more damage.
I assume officer means police officer... if so, you have a LOT of INFLUENCE you can exert on him.
If I was hitting on another man's wife and I had six cops show up at MY DOOR IN UNIFORM and sit down with me and tell me to leave the wife alone I would DAM WELL DO IT
Puppy Dog Tails here knows how to wire up your wife's car with a GPS so you know where she is all the time too...
I would reccomend you get your posse to meet him at his home, just have them wait til his car is there, say a half dozen of them show up and tell him they want to have a "chat" with him
YOu get them to sit down and have a chat with him, you don't have to be there... you can sit in on teh phone if you want... but I think you will be far scarier if you AREN'T there...
Get his wife to work on him...
Your wife is gonna rant, let her rant all she wants
You keep your ring on and don't go near a divorce lawyer right now...
You make HER file, you make HER hire the lawyer and HER pay for all of that.. not to mention the pain and the nervousness etc.. that puts a HUGE mountain at her feet to climb... she's likley too much of a mess right now to do it
Just set a sample of a repsonsible adult... adults do NOT hang out with other men's wive's in secret wtihout putting that H in the loop....
in MY opinion that man has NO business listening to your wife's PRIVATE marital problems... there's a REASON professional marriage therapists need a LICENSE to practice.. and he AIN'T no THERAPIST
If your house is on fire, do you call a pulmber?
You tell that creep to mind is own business and if YOUR wife wants a shoulder to cry on she can find a family therapist.. that is what THEY do.
I would reccomend you find one FIRST, start going alone... set an example of adult behaviour for her to follow
And try to put that tail on her car if you can...
The amount of trust you extend to your wife right now is parallel to the amount of respect she shows you.. and not an OUNCE more trust than that... And right now she's showing you ZIP.
Oh, and you get your posse to tell him that the "chat" is PRIVATE .. and if he tells your wife about it he'll regret it...
Have someone harass him with parking fines regularly too until you know he's leaving your wife alone...
He needs to KNOW he's being WATCHED... it will keep him AWAY...
Between your "posse" and OM wife I think you an keep your wife away from him...
If ANY of your friends at her workplace see them together talking have them BREAK the talk up.. just tell them to go over and say hello and to talk to the OM and to STEER him AWAY from your wife...
If OM knows EVERYONE around him is WATCHING him he will behave.. paranoia can work wonders.. you just need to stir his imagination up a bit so he knows how much of a thraet you are... right now he doen'st think you ARE a threat at ALL.. SHOW him you ARE.
I will do my best to just ignore everything about her right now and see how she comes around.
Wow. That's one helluva strategy, right there.
Puppy
OMW has told me she will hunt my wife down and beat the crap out of her for a lack of other terms.
Well, at least SOMEBODY here is fighting for their marriage, I'll give her that much.
Puppy
Not the most graceful approach, but "beating the crap out of OW" approach works well too I bet lol
This morning while at work my W txt me around the time she wakes up to tell me "I could not get any sleep, I am going to take a slow ride to work" Then she txt me "I am at work" she arrived to work 1hr 30min before he scheduled start time. Usually she is just getting up around the time she left this morning. I did drive past her work place parking lot mins after she said she was there and I did see her car. It is a secure lot so I was unable to enter or find a place to observe. I attempted to call OMW to see if he too had already left for work but went right to voicemail on every attempt.
At this point it is getting way out of hand. She is completely disrespectful toward me and just as recent as last night before I left for work we "co-existed" pretty well in the sense we did talk.
It has got to a point where I don't feel I could trust her and the person she is at the moment is not someone I want to continue a relationship with. I don't know if it is just her bitterness toward me that has her acting like this or she simply is a entirely different women from the one I knew up till a month ago.
As of right now I strongly believe it is an emotional affair and hopefully I have stepped in just in time before it become something more.
Only a DAM (and trust me, I NEVER use that term, b/c I generally don't like it) characterizes an emotional affair as "just" an EA. To a woman, it is FAR more serious for her go give her heart to another man in an ongoing, emotional relationship than to give in to him for a ONS or even a period sexual one.
If you don't believe me, just poll the women on the forum.
ONLY A DUMB-ASS MAN MINIMIZES THE THREAT OF AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR!!!Puppy
I agree- and that is the reason that most women do not come back from A's- they are heavily invested in (emotionally), whereas the men typically are looking for sex.
Don't minimize the severity
officerInNeed,
I'm sorry that you find yourself here, I know it sucks. I too am dealing with an A - and my H keeps telling me they are just friends, which I know is BS.
Puppy & Allen are great at giving the best advice ever. I know how hard it is to follow, and goes against what you feel like doing. But I do believe it works. I have tried to go dark, and have failed at it many times. However, when I do it, my H starts pursing me. And the hardest ever I think, is GAL. But that is something you have to do, like the say on here fake it till you make it.
Shirley Glass makes this piont in her interview Maynard, that men more often come back from affairs than women... more often when a woman leaves for anothr man, she doen'st come back
Hear that mb28? It's EASIER to bring a man back.. so you have the advantage here.
Why is that do you think? It being women are less likely to come back? Is it because it's more emotional for them?
I think it's because women -- by the time they walk -- have typically already been planning their escape, emotionally, for 6-12 months or more. By the time they drop the bomb, they're DONE.
Us men are much more impulsive creatures.
Puppy
So I get a call from OMW and she wants us to go to their work place and confront them as they exit. So I agree. They both come out and OMW approaches them. He is stunned and my W just tries to walk about. OMW grabbed my W arm and turned her and said "I told you to stop the phone calls and all this talking" my wife is a terrorfied look on her face said "We did, I did" I then walked up and suprised my W and said "No, you didnt. Enough is enough" She was in shock. So I then jump in OM face and give him a piece of my mind. He is scared and repeatedly said I am backing off I told her all the calls and talking are over. I grab my W hand and said lets go home and we walked away.
My W then went through a range of emotions from angry to sad to upset ect. she said "He was just easy to talk to, noone else would listen" and I said "I am here for you" she said no you are not 10 years of you acting like this...She then proceded to say we should have never got married and that it has been a while since she was deeply in love with me. That it is over she will start the process. She can never be happy with me cause she can never forgive the things I did ect..
I did what I had to do but in the process I killed every chance I may have at reconciliation. I told her as long as we are married you will not make these calls any longer, you need to respect me at the very least.
I don't know what is going through her head right now but she is certain she wants out.
Umm- might not have gone as badly as you think- remember keep it consistant- don't be afraid or confused if she's super angry and change things up and be all lovey-dovey-
You are angry she's been lying and you've busted her A again.
You have every right to be angry, but that doesn't mean you cannot listen and validtate-
Just dont let that turn into more convincing or R talk, etc.
I think it might have gone pretty well
OfficerInNeed,
Sorry, that is a very stressfull sitch. However, it's not over, she is just lashing out at you.
OfficerInNeed,
I am sorry that you are here on these boards. You are in for an rollercoaster UNLESS you take refuse the ride...and that is what you should do, REFUSE to ride this rollercoaster with your wife and her irrational and rude behavior. Your wife is acting completely disrespectful to you! As a women I HATE when a man lets me walk all over them. If I tell that man that the sky is green even though he sees that it is blue and he just says ok, that is a complete turn off and most women will run over him and use him for what they need him for. Don't be that man to your wife.
When you find her in a lie...don't ask her about it to see what excuse she will have to make yourself feel better...call a lie a lie and then WALK AWAY...no argument with her when you know what is going on.
You need to SHOW your wife that you are a MAN that will not ALLOW her to disrespect you and your home.
gotta run but will be back
Yup, these guys are right, ignore what she's telling you day to day, its jsut her impulses...
NOW, ONE mistake you DID make...
When your wife told you he was easy to talk to...
You told her YOU were here for her..
THAT is a BIG NO NO.. you are pursuing
Let me make this point clear
1. it is GOOD to attack an affair and break it up
2. it is NOT good to pursue your spouse for relationship talk
Attakck the affair,
IGNORE talking to your spouse about marriage
Let me say it again
Attack the affair
IGNORE the talks
What you SHOULD have told her was
1. He is NOT trained to save marriages
2. He is NOT licensed
3. He has PROBLEMS of his OWN to deal with
4. It is a violation of MY privacy to open up our marital problems to someone in your workplace
5. It is disrespectful to me to lie to me about where you are giong and to sneak around with him in private
It is OK if she doen'st want to talk to you
It is OK if she wants help
It is OK if she wants someone to understand her
It is OK if she is angry with you, you HAVE made mistakes
What you need to do is
1. Tell her, its OK if you do'nt wnat to talk to me
2. Tell her it is NOT OK to talk to someone who isn't QUALIFIED to help you -- There ARE professionals that are TRAINED to help, lets call one and get us the help we need
OK?
Do NOT pursue your wife
Attack the affair, do NOT FORCE your WIFE to OPEN UP to you... ESPECIALLY if they are opening up to someone else... they will NOT talk to you right NOW
They MAY talk to a family therapist... Just get them the help they need, put them in GOOD hands, and give them SPACe... and PROTECT them from parasites until their head is straight again
1. Get them the help they need
2. Leave them alone
3. Protect them from parasites
Three tasks to save yoru marriage during a crisis
You did 3 today, but you missed on number 2.. no biggie... you had a good day
Officer in need, i would definitely get some of your buddies to go have a chat with this guy... CLEARLY he is disrespecting you and he is NOT afraid of you.. YET.. give him a REASON to be...
Officer in need, i would definitely get some of your buddies to go have a chat with this guy... CLEARLY he is disrespecting you and he is NOT afraid of you.. YET.. give him a REASON to be...
What, and get them -- or you -- arrested?
LEAVE HIM BE. This is a recipe for disaster! You spoke your peace (and in a way that no one here recommended, but at least you spoke it), and there's no sense in escalating things. There are other ways to verify no-contact, and to lay out (and enforce) your boundaries.
He's a pimple on your ass from here on out.
Tell your wife "I decided that I was no longer going to allow the two of you to lie to your spouses anymore. Let's get some good counseling, and we can talk about it further."
Puppy
good advice puppy. I agree
"I told her as long as we are married you will not make these calls any longer, you need to respect me at the very least.
I don't know what is going through her head right now but she is certain she wants out."
I was typing when you wrote your latest update. Watch your wording. The above sounds controlling to me. She can continue to make the calls but YOU have the choice of how you react. Make some boundaries and when she crosses them then she has the consequences that you have determined (i.e. you no longer pay for the phone bill, etc.). Leave the choice with her but you have your boundaries in place.
Pup, i wasn't suggesting any violence take place, just a demonstration of presence and consequences is all...
If this creep KNOWS there are police watching him, he will think twice about moving in on someone's wife...
And I do NOT reccomend the H be there at the time of the visit
OIN, if your wife keeps saying she needs someone to talk to, I would emphasize this man is NOT a qualified family therapist and is in NO POSITION to give even half way useful advice
If she wants help, as you said, say lets get you some help... but this guy ain't it.
Lastly OIN... you need to STOP focussing on what she says.
When she says she wants out... what she MEANs is "I am miserable"... you need to learn to SHUT out the negative stuff...
I think you said you don't have children yet.. so, imagine a child yelling to their mother "I hate you, you're a horrible mother"...
Children do this ALL THE TIME.. its extortive.. its an attempt by teh child to force the mother to SUBMIT to the child's authority... a GOOD mother will just stand back and let the child rant... not angry, not affectionate, just indifferent..
Let your wife RANT...
Ignore IT... when YOU consume her negative energy, it stays in teh ROOM and she FEEDS off it LATER..
you need to getnerate POSITIVE energy.. I am NOT saying be warm and kind, your wife is cheating...
I am saying, FEEL good, FEEL focussed, feel optimistic when you speak on the phone to people, when you takl to anyone.. sh will FEED off THAT instead of HER crappy mood.
Her affair makes her MORE miserable, but YOU can offset that at least by projecting something positive
You need to learn to let her rants DROP to the FLOOR.. right now you ar PICKING them UP and CARRYING them AROUND with you... that's going to give you anxiety over the next few weeks if you don't stop it.
And thats just giong to give your WIFE anxiety.. put a STOP to it on YOUR END... NOW.
Thanks for all the advice. After reading my post and thinking about what I said, I did come across as controlling and that is the last behavior I want to exhibit right now.
Every time I suggested we or her alone get professional help she shoots it down and says "They cannot make a person change their mind, I don't want to be with you and that is it, so I am not going to talk to anyone.
My wife tells me everyone is telling her that she should get out now because it is not good for her mental well being. One person in particular is her father. Now I would think that if a father had any indication his daughter is in a bad situation he would speak out about it and approach me on it, he has not. I can't say she is not telling the truth but that is just my take.
I also learned she is painting a bad picture of me to others she speaks to...leading these individuals to believe things were physical between here and I. She is at the point where she is now fabricating stories to make it worse than it ever was, so much that she has started to believe in her thoughts (such as I did with my insecurities).
My question is what do I do from here? Do I offer for her to go out and do things with me or do I shut her out to an extent? I want to create a positive environment for her but I also don't want to mislead her and le her believe it was OK what she done even though she find no problem in it.
As far as the OM situation I will just have to monitor it. Talk tot he OMW as often s I can and encourage friends to "look out." Last I heard, OM was crying to his wife and she threw him out again.
I think it's because women -- by the time they walk -- have typically already been planning their escape, emotionally, for 6-12 months or more. By the time they drop the bomb, they're DONE.
Yeah.......or put up with cr@p for ten years, THEN decide to walk-out. I don't condone what she's done, but the girl needed somebody other than the jerk you've been. You admitted in your other thread how badly you treated her, and THEN when you learn somebody is paying attention to the person you never showed any value to......suddenly the story changes.
Well, I hope you've decided that she is worth a lot more than the way you treated her, but I don't know that she thinks it's worth her pain to stay with "you". If you do get the opportunity to be a wonderful H, I hope you'll be smart enough to do it. It will take a heck of a lot longer than a work week, so you better gear up for the task.
People here have been telling you to ignore what she says, but you've ignored her for ten years and she found somebody else that paid attention. My advice is to listen to her express her needs and you may want to think how OM was fulfilling those needs for her.
I think you will find that what you use to do in the past will not work any longer.
I would probably offr an invite, but if she declines I would say "OK." Don't flip out, even if she says she wans to work on things.
In my sitch at one point, our C suggested we write out a list of things we could do together as friends...literally months went by and W wouldn't do a single one of them. Rather than taking it in stride- I became upset and accuse her of not caring- in hind site I only reiterated the fact that I care more about me than waw.
So, offer, and if she declines, you're perfectly cool w/ it...especially if she previously committed and changed her mind- possibly to test you.
Like Sandi said- she created alot of sense of worth to you by being unavailable and "too good" for you.
So, work your 180's no pressuring and see what happens.
The thing is despite my horrible actions in the past I still express my love and attraction to her. It was not always bad...I would say more good than bad but if that was the truth she would not be leaving right?
it doesnt matter what good you did or had, that's so far beyond her mentality. The fog they speak of, rewriting the history, going back in time and analyzing facial expressions, retorts, etc...she has no idea what it was really like- especially not the "good" times..
Do not remind her, do not promise, convince, etc.
Do not teach...just be happy, confident and detached.
validate, be civil, and do what you want- but work whatever 180s you need to.
In the other thread you said that you
had the need to put her down and lower her self-esteem. Then you added this:
From time to time she would indicate that I was mean and that I hurt her and stupid me would just blow it off like it was nothing that she was overreacting and when she told me she would leave in the past I would just think she was bluffing because she would not leave. Turns out she loved me more than I ever thought.
If you really want her, then you need to do a lot of work to become a man she deserves. A lot of sympathy goes to the LBH, but there was a problem long before she turned to another person. If that problem is not resolved then she will either not stay or she'll continue to find OP who will appreciate her and have the self confidence to show her.
I think mb28 said it best
Loving Detachment
This means, like a child who wants their own room, you say "OK" and you step OUT of their room and let them enjoy their music and do what they like.
NOW... There is a LIMIT to leaving them alone with thier thoughts and their lives.
Do NOT tolerate anyone interfering in your marriage, if she is talking to someone who is spewing negative stuff about you, step up and ask them to HELP. If they are NOT part of the solution, then they can just leave you two alone.
Do NOT tolerate parasites who want to pick away at your marriage while its vulnerable.
If your wife just wants to paint, or go for a walk on her own.. that's perfectly OK.. as LONG as she doens't get attached to any parasites on the trip.
Right now while your marriage is vulnerable, PARASITES show up, drinking buddies, predatory men, cynical man-hating friends, etc... All of this crap shows up when your marriage is most vulnerable... happens all the time.. do NOT tolerate that crap.
If your wife wants to go out with her female friend for a drink.. that's fine, just offer them a ride home so they are SAFE... tell them feel free to call etc...
You can't control her, but you CAN influence her...
For sandi's benefit, I am NOT saying to IGNORE completely what she is saying, it might contain valuable info... but do NOT show ANY reaction to it other than loving detachment.
Do NOT get ANGRY at her when she's scathing...do not be warm and affectionate etiher... just loving detached parental patience to to speak
WIFE : I hate you, you are a horrible human being!!!
YOU offer no response, not even a sigh... just look at her.
A sample you will often get this dynamic from is during labour... a running joke for men is that they need to IGNORE anything they hear their wife say while they are in labour...
The joke is that often a BLUE STREAK of MEAN SCATHING phrases darted at you fly out.. I have never seen it, but it is the stereo type..
The H at that time is just supposed to be uspportive... NOT retaliate by yelling even louder... so imagine when she's having a rant that she's in labour.
HER : You are a miserable SOB!!! I can't stand you right now...
YOU : I am going to make a cup of tea.
Note you do NOT offer her a cup here notice, THAT is pursuit... you just respond CALMLY ... what you are trying to do is project CALM ADULT behaviur in order to invoke some from her LONG TERM.
For NOW you need to be calm at all times..
1. Do NOT fight with her
2. NO name calling
3. No arguing
4. No BLAMING
5. No "I love you"
6. No "I am sorry"
Nothing warm OR cold... just neutral calm tonees come from you... it will help even her moods out gradually over time.
Maynard has it here, he has the fighting spirit down...
Don't be SMUG when she's upset... emit loving detachment... like a parent would to their son trying to ride a bike for the first time.. you stand back lovingly, but do NOT INTERFERE... say NOTHING... just emit warm calm commmitment.. she will GRADUALLY feed off of that..
I am warning you now... WITHOUT the OM in the picture turning her around is going to take at LEAST three months, it may take six to even a year...
Turning your wife around from where she's at NOW is a VERY LONG road as Sandi pointed out.. your wife is REALLY going to test you over the next several months and YOU will have to find in yourself UNCONDITIONAL LOVE...
your wife is giong to be MEAN, inconsiderate, moody, angry, deceitful, distant, cold, and you will feel like you married hell itself at some point and you WILL want her to just LEAVE. This is a TEST if YOUR COMMITMENT level...
YOUR test right now is to find in yourself unconditional love for this woman... loving detachment for the next six months minimum... loving someone who offers you nothing back but icicles and a sneer ...
It's a wonderful ride... if you are up for it
Regarding her father and others telling her to leave.
It depends on your relationship with them.
Are they telling her to leave because :
a. They don't like you
b. They just see how upset and sad she is and are offering her a quick and dirty solution
Is it a or b or both?
If its a, you have a big mountain to climb
If they DO like you, but they just are sympathizing with her..
YOU need to start taking them each out for dinner one on one and talking to them... help them understand how commited you are, and ask them for help in supporting you in helping you BOTH attend a family therapist...
do NOT press your wife for a therapist right now... she needs YOU to see a family therapist, she needs to see YOU change, grow, and become the man she needs you to be...
I am assuming of course through all of this advice that she is NOT in contact with this creep anymore... if there IS contact, you need to put that to a stop regularly while you are meeting with her family members. They need to KNOW she's been hanging around this obnoxious alcoholic.. get a friend to go with you to the dinner and back you up if you think they won't believe you.
YOU need to start showing MATURE, CALM, ADULT behaviour at all times, do NOT joke, do NOT charm, do NOT act childish in ANY WAY... your wife has painted you out to be an immature controlling monster...
That's fine...
YOU need to expose your MOST MATURE SELF to everyone she has spoken with...do NOT argue with them about what she said... just ACT as MATURE and THOUGHTFUL as you can... they WILL be watching you.. they WILL see yoru wife's been lying if YOU keep being an adult...
and I am nOT telling you to ACT like an adult, i am telling you to BE an adult... offer to help her family in any way... if someone needs a ride or someone's moving, offer two hands and your back for the day, etc..
BECOME a REAL MAN and THEY will GRADUALLY support you.
YOU need to find a GOOD family thereapist and start going... buy some books on marriage building, leave them around the hosue to read.. and you WILL read them.. this is NOT an act... your wife will KNOW if you are faking it... you need to REALLY do this...
1. Buy the books and read them
2. Go to a family therapist - alone, but make sure she sees the biz card and your apponitment time written on it
3. Start taking her family out to dinner one on one gradually... reconnect with them... give them a REASON to believe in you again
4. Protect your wife from parasites like that creep at work
Good luck sir
In the other thread you said that you had the need to put her down and lower her self-esteem. Then you added this:
...
If you really want her, then you need to do a lot of work to become a man she deserves. A lot of sympathy goes to the LBH, but there was a problem long before she turned to another person. If that problem is not resolved then she will either not stay or she'll continue to find OP who will appreciate her and have the self confidence to show her.
Thank you for writing Sandi
Let me know if what i wrote is a good start, I want to protect his wife, but I want to keep him honest and working hard at the same time...
During these crises you need to cover both ends
Protect your wife from predators
Grow up
Work on both ends has to be done.. its a daring rope to dance on to say the least..
I have reached out to her father. I invited him over for dinner as a surprise for her but she was not impressed. I spoke to him about this matter a few times already one-on-one. He said ultimately it is up to me and her to work this out, but if one wants it the oter does not then you have to accept it. He also said "Look at me and her mother we divorced and we are as happy now as we were ever before." He is pro divorce.
My W accepted my offer to a movie then later changed her mind and declined. I was cool with it. We had a couple movies that needed to be returned to blockbuster and she said she wanted to go for a ride and she would return the movies in the process. She left and then I went to work. About 1hr 1/2 later she txt me a picture of our dog in a funny position, which was confirmation she had returned home.
My W still txt me in the morning that she is leaving for work and again when she arrived at work...for example
- "leaving for work now"
- "made it to work safe"
Do I reply to these messages?
I already made a few mistakes. I offered to go out and get her food and I got the shoulder shrug in return. I also ran to different parts of the home to retrieve items for her. I am trying to detach but I am not sure what is good and what is not. Such as the text messaging. I wont initiate convo with her but if she does with me should I always respond?
Did she send TM about leaving & arriving at work before her EA with OM? I just wondered if she is being sarcastic or why she did this if she didn't want to account to you her actions. Seems rather odd that she is wanting to separate and suddenly giving you a play by play.
Anyway, when she says:
Simply reply with "ok" and not another word or it is pursuing.
Your answer - "good"
If she is sending you those TM with the right attitude, then respond with one word replies. That shows you appreciate it and noticed her TM, but you don't go into a conversation after she contacts you.
I agree w/ Sandi's advice...the retrieving items from different rooms might be something to avoid...I can remember doing that as well.
Sorry to hear about FIL...it's sad that they have divorced as i think that will only put a damper on your sitch as far as a family wanting and hoping to keep a family together.
I got the same thing from MIL who was widowed at 45 and then remarried and divorced in a month a few years later...she's not the best ally in my sitch.
You mentioned having surprised her w/ a visit from her father- here's the key- you cannot do anything to impress her...do it b/c you want to, when you do and you guage her for her response it might set you back.
Good job w/ the "no big deal attitude" when W agreed then changed her mind.
That was a huge set back for me and could have cost me everything in my sitch- my problem was I had quit posting here when things were going pretty good. I was flying blind.
OIN
1. As maynard has pointed out, you are NOT inviting father to dinner to IMPRESS your wife... you need to STOP looking for anything positive right now, its going to make you ANXIIOUS and your wife will feed off that... just DO IT.
2. Do NOT invite him to your HOME, take him to a neutral location where your wife cannot interfere. Do this with everyone.. you do NOT want your wife interfering...
3. Do NOT ask your wife what she wants for dinner or if she wants a dinner. YOu simply prepare it for her, or buy it and LEAVE it on the table... do NOT pursue. ASKING her if she WANTS dinner is PURSUIT... just buying one and leaving it there is NOT. It's just courtesy, she WILL sense the difference.
4. Do NOT invite your wife to the darn movies.. that is PURSUIT. You can rent a film and watch it, if she JOINS you that's great, but do NOT INVITE her ANYWHERE.. THAT is PURSUIT. You want to look like an ADULT here, not a love struck teenager.
You are doing good, keep monitoring her actitivty with OM, I don't think its over yet... that was tooooooo easy.
Oh, and Sandi is spot on the the texts.
One word reply is your limit. do NOT pursue.
PROTECT her indirectly as a Husband should from predators, but do NOT purusue her outright.
Keep an eye on the OM, that affair bust was way too easy... I don't think its over yet.. keep VERY close tabs on that guy.
I had the same problem in my home, I was TOLD it was over, and I thought it was, so I got complacent, for three months they were runing around behind my back and lying to me... I felt like a complete idiot.
Do NOT assume the affair is over.
OIN
1. As maynard has pointed out, you are NOT inviting father to dinner to IMPRESS your wife... you need to STOP looking for anything positive right now, its going to make you ANXIIOUS and your wife will feed off that... just DO IT.
2. Do NOT invite him to your HOME, take him to a neutral location where your wife cannot interfere. Do this with everyone.. you do NOT want your wife interfering...
3. Do NOT ask your wife what she wants for dinner or if she wants a dinner. YOu simply prepare it for her, or buy it and LEAVE it on the table... do NOT pursue. ASKING her if she WANTS dinner is PURSUIT... just buying one and leaving it there is NOT. It's just courtesy, she WILL sense the difference.
4. Do NOT invite your wife to the darn movies.. that is PURSUIT. You can rent a film and watch it, if she JOINS you that's great, but do NOT INVITE her ANYWHERE.. THAT is PURSUIT. You want to look like an ADULT here, not a love struck teenager.
You are doing good, keep monitoring her actitivty with OM, I don't think its over yet... that was tooooooo easy.
Follow this ^^^^ EXACTLY!!!
Inviting the FIL to dinner was something I had done and it failed. We also went out to his home for dinner. After talking to him from the heart about the whole situation a few times already, it has not and I don't think it will ever get me anywhere good.
My wife had text me a short while ago asking if the OMW called me anymore. I replied "No"
Then I called OMW and asked her to check the phone calls to see if they exchanged new phone numbers. OMW also told me that OM called her a few times today but she did not answer. He was crying and apologizing.
The more I talk to OMW the more other things about what had gone on make sense. It appears my wife is heavily influenced by this OM that she would often repeat to me (direct to me) things he had said about his wife. My wife has become very naive.
I am trying to put out so many fires here. From the past to this OM and the "bond" she thinks they share.
The OM said to his FIL that he would quit his job just to save his family.
I also found out my wife has female friends at work who are committing infidelity in their marriages. My wife is so vulnerable right now she may think it is OK t do what she is doing.
Also, I failed to mention the text messages are something I would consider a routine, she always did that so its not sarcastic.
I also wanted to know if the OM telling my wife "You husband loves you, work it out your problems, give him a chance" will that push my W further from me? due to underlying relationship issues or do you think she will just attach on to another person if not him?
ANY CONTACT between OM and your wife is BAD.
Let's look at it caerfully
1. Your wife has an attachment to this guy
2. He tells her GO back to your HUSBAND, work on your marriage
Result
a. HE looks like a HERO
b. YOU look like a SHMUCK
Do NOT let this guy talk to your wife at ALL.. tell him AGAIN with your buddies present as influence to KNOCK off the phone calls to your wife.
Tell him you don't CARE what he was calling for or what he told her, you want NO CONTACT to be made to your wife...
VERY SIMPLE... ZERO contact... He is disrespecting you and insulting you.. you need to hammer down on him and get some of your buddies to go with you... a guy with two or three OTHER guys with him looks a LOT mroe intimidating. Got it?
Your wife is giong to want you LESS and LESS with this creep calling her... wahtever he says, its going to do DAMAGE... he can't help your situation, he's compromised himself now...
IGNORE your wife's claims to having a bond with him, its called infatuation and it DOES fade away... you just need to get her OFF the drug of this affair and walking the straght and narrow again.
OK, if your FIL will not work with you, that's fine. Find someone who CAN influence her that WILL work with you, tha'ts your homework for the week.
When your wife asks you if OMW called you, the answer is not "no"... Tell her outright
"I am going to keep in contact with her until I know thier marriage is on safer ground.. OM has no business getting involved with you in secret and hurting his wife like that... I am NOT disclosing any private business about US, I am just doing what I can to help repair any damage we may have caused over there by checking in on her... you are more than welcome to sit in on any calls I make... "
Do NOT let your wife police YOU from taling to OMW, she WILL TRY to get you to back off... do NOT back off...
Be OPEN about what you are doing to set an example to her... do a phone call to OMW every three days, even do a speakerphone if you want, so your wife can hear...
Just check in with her, ask her if OM is doing better, etc... The MORE you get INVOLVED in helping her marriage, the more HE looks like an ASS and YOU look like a HERO...
Don't violate OM and OMW's privacy by getting too specific, but check to make sure everything is on the straight and narrow... do NOT do this in secret from your wife... she knows you are talking to her, so don't HIDE it, when YOU hide stuff, your WIFE will follow suit.. NO HIDING anything... got it?
do NOT let OM talk to your wife.. EVER
If your wife makes an issue of you talking to OMW tell him you have NO ROMANTIC interst in her and you are NOT sharing any private information and tell your wife she is welcome to sit in on the calls at any time.
Phil McGraw once said this and I love it :
Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
Oh, and do NOT believe anything OM tells you.. he's a disrespectful sleazy liar.
I don't care what he told his FIL.
He told YOU he would leave your wife alone, and he's NOT... he's a sleazy liar and he's moving in on your wife...
Get in his FACE and stay there for the next THREE months and police him until he BACKS OFF for GOOD
If your wife complains just calmly tell her you are protecting her marriage and she should be doing the same... then walk away
I will start following advice in a more strict manner. As of right now and since this all began (our issues) she sleeps a lot. She is sleeping as I type this. All she does is go to work (enjoys herself) comes home, mopes, takes a bath then sleeps. She told me yesterday after this confrontation she is just counting down the days till she can leave.
Today, for the first time, I will go grocery shopping without her and just let her once again sleep the day away.
Do I ignore this behavior?
As long as she's sleeping alone let her rest...
I suspect she's under a LOT of stress and may be experiencing some chemical imbalances (depression)
IGNORE her threats to divorce, I know it HURTS, and I know its HARD, but you need to STOP taking that crap seriously...
She is TRYING to intimidate you and hurt you... IGNORE it
Before this affair business came to the forefront I thought I was making good progress with the LRT. We seemed to be getting along well considering. At the time I did offer to do just about everything for her, I thought since I can't say ILY anymore then I would show her with actions.
The issues is, I was not always affectionate and failed to express "love" toward her in the past. She felt unappreciated, unwanted and unattractive. I made it a point to do everything for her and compliment her as often as I could (int he past month since this occurred). How I do I go more cold in a sense by no longer doing things for her when that is how I got myself here in the first place? Would someone who always felt unwanted respond positive to this "back-off" approach?
Giving our history (as seen in past posts) and now this A business what 180s or LRTs do you suggest. If my wife carries on like she is in prison counting down the days till she is "released" and in her mind we are already separated how is it or how can I save this marriage...
1. I mentioned this before, do NOT LISTEN to her negative comments... she is TRYING to SCARE you OFF... you are consuming what she is telling you and working your self into a PANIC... it is NOT helping you
2. Loving actions is NOT Last Resort Technique, and I am NOT reccomending LRT anyhow. I am recommending an affair busting strategy not covered in MWD's texts.
3. While there is an affair going on, and for aat least a month widthrawal period after its REALLY OVER I do NOT reccomend you pursue your wire at ALL.
Loving actions can be done without pursuing... its done subtely with HER VOLNTEERING to accept or refuse.
Example :
a. You INVITING her to a movie
b. You renting a movie and HER CASUALLY sitting to watch it in the chair next to you
c. You making dinner and preparing a plate for her
d. You making dinner and ASKING HER if she would like to sit with you for dinner
e. You buying some flowers to decorate the living room is OK
f. You buying some flowers with a love card and HANDING them to her
a, d, and f is PURSUIT, do NOT do this
b, c, and e is OK, its leaving HER the CHOICE to warm up to you or not...
Do things like b, c, and e...
1. This will demonstrate change for the better on your part
2. This will leave her feeling FREE, not under control
3. This will keep YOU from feeling direct Rejection like you are experiencing now...
No pursuit = No rejection
STOP the PURSUIT, it is NOT LRT, and it is NOT helping you
You need to change who YOU ARE... PURSUING her is NOT you changing yourself for the better, its YOU trying to control her
SHE needs to see an ADULT, NOT a love struck teenager..
YOU can be an ADULT without requiring her help at all
My CONCERN is the affair, the tactics above will have only MINIMAL effect with this creep slipping her his BS in secret, DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN to put a STOP to that creep
I would also start researching family therapy offices near you to find a good FT
I don't CARE if she said she won't go... she wants YOU to go.. so you go... after six sessions you would very likley find her asking what's being said, how's it going, and she might even be willing to see the FT privately herself... but you need to show HER you are CHANGING for the BETTER
So do it
Allen, I wish I had found you a few months back when W was still in the house...I made the fatal error of not posting when I should have been
I can't guarantee what will work and what wont', but I can tell you what I have seen work most OFTEN.. which is teh tactics i reccomend.. the ones that work the most often...
I just wanted to give an update on how the past 24hrs have played out to ensure I am taking the correct course of action and ensure I am doing what would give me the best possible chance to saving my marriage.
I spoke with OMW and OM last night. OMW said they had a great meeting and an extremely long phone call following and she is confident in they're R. I was unable to meet up with OM while on duty to once again get my point across and that was because he was with his wife. I did speak to OM, however, and was stern and to the point. I will beat this into him every day for as long as it takes.
Today my wife returned home from work and we did have a few brief conversations pertaining to finances ect. I DID NOT initiate any conversation. I DID respond to any questions she asked but made my responses brief. At one point we did both sit down on the same couch and began to watch TV together and a few times shared a laugh, she would make a comment and I would agree
for example W - "That was funny" or "that is weird" Me - "it was"
At one point I got up and walked away and left my phone behind. My wife grabbed my phone and as I walked back in the room she was going through my txt messages and calls. I told her I had nothing to hide and allowed her to browse whatever she wanted. We then continued to watch TV where she eventually feel to sleep and that is where we are at right now.
I was told by a friend that she did walk up to OM at work today and they had a 2 min conversation. My friend said he was not there for the lunch break today so he cannot say if anything else happened. Apparently the talk at the work place is the OMW and I confronting the two.
The highlight of the day:
- Wife thanked me for picking up groceries for her when I went shopping yesterday (she is a vegetarian so she requires special food types)
- Wife shared laughs with me
I am not sure how to read into her today.
I agree with Allen. You need to start seeing a FT. Your ACTIONS will speak more to your wife than any words you can say. I am not talking about your "nice" actions either. You need to start doing things that will make you a better man and a better husband, ESPECIALLY if you haven't shown her affection and such in the past.
looks like things stand a shot...remember- do not give into emotions, do not react to tests...and keep posting
Good work OIN.
You did everything right I think.
I would tell the OMW if her H has any conversation with your wife... do NOT keep that info to yourself.
And yes I would go to his home with his WIFE present (I would never confront him in private... NEVER do that.. he could tell someone you hit him and NO JUDGE will believe that YOU didn't touch him right now)...
With his wife there, warn him AGAIN. Tell him you KNOW conversations took place..
There are some other good things if you noticed :
1. Your wife watched TV with you
2. Your wife SPOKE to you during the program
3. your wife wanted to see your phone
on 3, its interesting, I don't konw if she wants to see if you called OM, OMW, or if she wants to just see who you talked to that day...
But you played it perfectly... just let her look at it if she picks it up...
NEVER hand it to her without her asking for it... if you do THAT , she will assume you cleaned it up first and are trying to trick her.. wait for her to ASK for it or for her to just pick it up... do NOT get defensive about your phone at all. You did well.. keep that OM out of yoru wife's life though... he's NOT listening to you clearly.
Telll him if your wife approaches him that you want him to WALK AWAY... NOT say a WORD...
I don't know the law that well, but maybe there's something legal you can do to keep him away?
Can you at least run a background check on this creep?
Wife still sleeping....
I cannot get a hold of OMW or OM to share or gather info.
Nothing I can do legally to keep the two from speaking. From what I hear, he seems to "get it" and she does not. She is still approaching him. I will have to speak with him again and let him know, no communication.
My other concern is my wife may be influenced by female co-workers who have/are committing infidelity. A week ago my W told me she will be going out to lunch with them (women) after work this up coming Tuesday.
As for a background check, in order to work where they do each person had to go through an extensive background check.
Don't recall if I had mentioned this but when listening to OMW she told me many of the things OM said to her and 99% of those things my W said to me, here are a few as an example:
- I am co-existing till I can leave
- Marriage is just a piece of paper
- ILYBNILY
OK, well, try to get a hold of OMW and let her know you just want to keep her in the loop and that you are monitoring things on your end for her and you.. tell her you are BOTH better off if you work together here.. which she SHOULD understand...
I didn't think there, was anything legal you could do, but I had to ask right? lol
If she keeps trying to contact him and he keeps pushing her away, she WILL eventually lose her facination with him... as long as ONE of the two is acting with some maturity and walking away you should be ok. It is going to take your wife likley three months or more to lose her intrest fully. How long have them been doing this do you know?
YOur wife is hangnign out with the wrong crowd, but we can't stop that... unles syou want to tell their husbands what you know lol
I think if you make your home a warn inviting environment and keep OM AWAY from her, she will gradually come around.
I don't trust other companies background checks.. I would run my own anyways.. I would run every check I coudl to find out what this guy's history is...
As far as what your wife told you and what OM told his wife its classic affair script...
WHen your wife or husband goes up to you and says
I love you but I am not in love with you
We are over
I am leaving
etc, this means they are cheating... or very likley cheating.. its almost 100% of the affair cases these statements are offered up, or something to those effects...
Don't let what she says get to you. If you are a cop, you likely had some training or course on dealing with drug addicts and alcohoics.. dealign with an affair is no different.
Not to mention compulsive gamblers... which is likley a closer comparison.
From what I was told by a few different sources, my wife was her typical self at work and during lunch time one day while in the break room her co-workers were engaged in a conversation about "spousal abuse" and OM provided examples of how he has dealt with different levels of abuse from his father toward him and his mother. My W fed up with the way I treated her back then was seeking advice on how she should handle her situation and from there it just grew. What started out as advice turned into something more. This had gone on since the last week of January of this year. That is when people said they noticed a change in her and the phone calls had started.
The background check was done by the government. I did run him through the system at work but no criminal record.
When the phone calls first started to happen my wife did tell me she called "someone" for advice and then later told me this someone was a co-worker. The more I opposed the communication the more she became defensive and secretive about the calls.
I then started to hear from people OM did not know I knew that he had said "I don't know how this happened but I think I became "W name" best friend" and the also said "I can't wrap my head around it, she follows me around like a puppy dog."
Update: Wife eventually woke up. We ended up watching some TV and she asked a couple general questions and made a few comments (non R) and I replied to those questions/comments.
Eventually she walked up to bed and as going up the stairs said to me "I think tomorrow we're going to have to sit down and talk" and I replied "That's fine" with a slight smile on my face suggesting I welcome the conversation.
How do I prepare myself for the conversation? all I can think is it will not be positive. Anxiety has come over me right now and I am trying to combat it.
Any idea what the subject will be?
I have absolutely no clue. I can only assume, and I have to admit no good thoughts are going through my head.
She said as quoted above and my only reply is as quoted above I did not want to say "talk now" or "about what" cause I did not want to come across as controlling.
Assumptions:
- she will tell me she have a move out date
- she will tell me she has somewhere to stay
- she will tell me that what I did by confronting her shows I have not changed and may had come across as controlling
- she may want to further discuss the separation procedure.
How do I react? Do I continue to not pursue rather than start pouring it on if she tells me she is going...how do I prepare myself for the above?
Do NOT pursue under any circumstances... THAT will come across as controlling...
The fact that she' didn't tell you about what is pretty sick on her part in my opinion...
Just keep yourself busy... Whatever she says, just hold back and don't commit to anything...
If she says she's moving out, say nothing... just get up and walk out of the room
I suspect she's going to try to provoke a fight, mb28 can tell you about those games for sure... just get OUT of the room if it gets difficult...
You do NOT have to subject yourself to her games...
She is already playing a game with you, she offers you up some ominous "we have to talk and leaves YOU on the defensive all day long.. That's sick... In the future do not accept ominous threats like that, its a head game... she wants YOU stressed out all day and on the defensive... it makes her feel like she's got some sick power over you
Don't let it get to you... remember whatever she say's, its NOT bad. what you DO with it is where it goes...
What you DO with her choices is what makes or breaks a marriage... its in YOUR hands
I just cant imagine anything positive coming out of the conversation.
I quoted in past posts how our past two days went since the confrontation.
I do know she has been listening to this song over and over again
Lyrics found
here I know it is just a song and to here it relates to the current situation but I strongly believe anything will influence her at this point even a song...
Yes, wayward spouses get desperate and cling to useless solutions... their capacity for good judgement is shot to hell.
- she will tell me she have a move out date
Just get up and leave the room. If she challenges you, tell her you will discuss it with your Family Therapist, but you do not want to have a destructive conversation. Tell her its not a healthy solution and you want no part of it... GET OUT of the room... no ANGER, no yelling, just calmly get OUT of the room
- she will tell me she has somewhere to stay
same as above
- she will tell me that what I did by confronting her shows I have not changed and may had come across as controlling
You tell her "I am protecting our marriage... I ask that YOU do the same and NOT do anything to hurt it any further. I am going to a Family Therapist to discuss how to be a better husband to you. I am NOT going to go to someone in my workplace in secret to talk to someone who is NOT qualified to do anything but damage... What I did and what i do, is for our marriage because i made a commitment to you, to love you and respect you... and I intend to keep that commitment"
- she may want to further discuss the separation procedure.
Just leave the room, tell her separation does NOT solve anything. Tell her you are willing to attend a Family Therapy session to find out how to be a better husband, but you do not want any part of a separation procedure...
Just LEAVE the ROOM... if you argue, its a trap, it will jsut show her you argue too much
If you try to get her NOT to, she will accuse you of controlling her...
Just tell her YOU want no part of it, CALMLY. Tell her the famly therapist advice you have read so far says separation is NOT constructive and you do NOT want to have anything to do with it...
Participating in a conversation about something you do NOT want to do IMPLIES you are OK with it... so you LEAVE to show her you won't go there.
She will likley yell and try to BAIT you... just leave the room calmly... it is WAY too stressful a situation for you to handle so just get OUT of there
She is setting you UP to FREAK OUT... by telling you "we need to talk" and leaving you sit on that for a whole day she's just trying to get you into a frenzy... so, if she says anything that isn't constructive, LEAVE the ROOM
OK. So I wake up this morning and catch the W as she is rolling out of bed. So I say "You wanted to talk to me about something?" and she shook her head no. So I said "I must had misunderstood you last night then."
So then said "I want you to talk, you told me in the past that I don't let you talk. I have calmed down over the past couple days and I am willing to listen to you." Well she is referring to when I was pursuing her. So I said (which I probably should not had) "I express my feelings about the situation since this all began and she replied "So did I, and everything I said I mean."
Her and I laid in bed and I said to her "I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you but I need sometime to gather my thoughts before I do." I did not know how to go about this conversation. She said "OK." I stayed there for a few mins then I got up and she watched me as I did and she had a look on her face as in "where you going?" and she actually said those words.
How do I approach this conversation? She is leading me to believe she wants to hear what I have to say but either way it wont change the outcome because she already has her mind setup. If I tell her how I really feel then I am pursuing her. How can I get across that I want this marriage to work without pressuring her or pushing her future away? I would feel more comfortable if she just spoke to me and tell me her feelings but right now they seem to be "I'm leaving still."
OIN. I am going to say this ONE LAST TIME and from this point I will NOT ANSWER this question again in the future :
1. YOUR WIFE is in a state of mind where ALL SHE CAN EXPRESS is a mean, cynical attitude towards everything... she's MISERABLE and when she talks, it comes OUT.. do NOT EXPECT ANYTHING USEFUL to be said by her.. she is TRYING to DRIVE you AWAY... STOP LISTENING TO WHAT she's SAYING... you NEED to HEAR me.. when you reply, I want you to TYPE OUT what i wrote here so I can see you heard this.. IGNORE what she's SAYING, its NOT HELPFUL to focus on that.
2. How do you tell her you want your marriage? You don't tell her, you SHOW her... you SHOW her by acting like a man, not a love struck teenager or pushy caveman... you show her what a REAL ADULT acts like... THAT shows her you want your marriage
What you did this morning was PURSUIT... You couldn't wait for HER to bring the "We need to talk" up, you went AFTER her ... AGAIN... you need to LEAVE her ALONE and STOP PURSUING her.
The way you win back a wayward spuose is by ACTING MATURE ... NOT by chasing her around like a puppy dog... which is wha tyou are doing.
"I would feel more comfortable if she just spoke to me and tell me her feelings but right now they seem to be "I'm leaving still."
Guess what? She IS telling you how she feels... what YOU want is to hear her tell you that SHE feels the way YOU feel... well, she DOESN'T feel how you feel.. you need to get over it.
She's miserable, STOP pursuing her to tell you otherwise... you seem to think if you keep CHASING her that eventually her feelings will be DIFFERENT - They WON'T
YOu can't CHANGE her feelings by CHASING her.. YOU need to change who YOU are to change her.
And you haven't changed, your PURSUIT is just control... you will NTO give her any PEACE.. leave her ALONE
Keep the OM away from her, but leave HER ALONE.. I will write this again.. LEAVE HER ALONE OR YOU WILL DRIVE HER RIGHT OUT THE DAMN DOOR and it will be YOUR FAULT... you CAN save this.. you have her LIVING wiht you, that is a HUGE advantage many on this forum do NOT have.. some have thier spouse in a diffrent STATE for god sakes.. she's in your HOME, sleeping in YOUR BED.. this is a WALK in the PARK.. and you are BLOWING IT
LEAVE HER ALONE
LEAVE HER ALONE
LEAVE HER ALONE
I can't say that ENOUGH... STOP PURSUING HER
YOu need to get to work on finding a VERY GOOD family therapist and acting like a parent... I know ou don't have kids, but you can act like a parent... keep your home clean, orderly, SAFE... keep the yard tidy... save money for a rainy day... get fresh groceries etc ... you likley do some of this already but I am sure there is more you can do to show her you are an adult.
You cannot TALK her BACK.. you need to ACT like an ADULT to CONVINCE her to STAY
Let me say that again :
You cannot TALK her BACK.. you need to ACT like an ADULT to CONVINCE her to STAY
GOT IT?
I am really upset that you went after her like that this mornign, I know why you did it, she made you anxious by how she said things yesterday.. but YOU need to LEAVE her ALONE..
Your probelm is you PANIC and when you PANIC, you PURSUE...
KNOCK IT OFF Or you are going to LOSE HER
In Panic now? Good, LEAVE HER ALONE - go work on yourSELF... YOu need to grow, read, learn, and be a better man or you will NEVER bring her back to you.. period.
mb28 maybe you can help OfficerInNeed here if you are reading?
Your husband is more or less diong the same thing with you... Your husband calls you up and jsut gives you strem of negative hopeless garbage just like OIN's wife is doing... But you have learned how to handle this stuff now pretty well... OfficerInNeed here needs to learn how to handle wayward script withotu panicking and pursuing
Any advice you can offer I am sure he would apprciate.
How do I approach this conversation? She is leading me to believe she wants to hear what I have to say but either way it wont change the outcome because she already has her mind setup. If I tell her how I really feel then I am pursuing her. How can I get across that I want this marriage to work without pressuring her or pushing her future away? I would feel more comfortable if she just spoke to me and tell me her feelings but right now they seem to be "I'm leaving still."
SOrry, i hand't answered this one.
She does NOT want to hear what you have to say, she just wants YOU to feel how miserable she is and to HELP her. BUt when you PURSUE ,you just UPSET her and make her feel WORSE... so DON'T DO IT. If you want this marraige to work "without pressuring her" then STOP PURSUING HER.. pursuit IS PRESSURE. Her feelings ARE that she wants to leave... she has the mistaken idea in her head that if she LEAVES her life will be better.
YOU NEED to become a better husband to SHOW her that leaving is a LESS DESIRABLE choice than staying...
Right now you WON'T LEAVE HER ALONE
What you need to do is the following :
1. Ask her outright, "what would you like me to do?"
2. If what she ASKS for is constructive, you DO IT, no questions asked.
If she tells you to make breakfast, you DO IT.
If she tells you to leave her alone, you DO IT.
If she tells you to take the dog for a walk, you DO IT.
If she tells you to go wash her car, you DO IT.
What you do NOT do, is anything like :
Go file for a divorce, I am done with you - do NOT do it
Go pack my bags, I am leaving - do NOT do it
Go find a lawyer and get the paperwork for Divorce ready - do NOT do it
Go pack YOUR bags, YOU'RE leaving - do NOT do it
GOt it?
If she gives you something constructive to do, DO IT.. period.
If she tells you to leave OM alone :
"Any interaction I have with OM or his wife is to protect our marriage, I respect the commitment I made and I will do what I have to protect our marriage and I am not sorry for that. If there was a woman I was taklign to who was telling me to leave you I would expect YOU to do the same - protect our MARRIAGE FIRST. Our marriage comes first."
And you do NOT ARGUE on it... anything she says you jsut repeat that CALMLY and then you EXIT the room.
do NOT let her bait you into a fight.
Allen is right
1- you have a HUGE advantage, as W is in the home
2- if she walks- it WILL be your fault for doing what you're doing
I DID THAT MYSELF- that's why I know what you're doing won't work. It sounds super easy, to just work on yourself...I know it doesn't seem that way b/c there is so much "uncertainty".
Look at it this way- how uncertain is it if she's there at the house?
Assume that she's somewhat willing to work on things b/c she's there...but do not hold the expectation...
He;''s also correct that you are panicking.
To this day, my mind tells me there is something I can say to W to bring her back- WRONG- I've tried everything and NONE of it worked.
DO NOT DO WHAT I DID- focus on yourself, fake the confidence in your M if you have to...and follow ALLENS ADVICE
Exactly maynard, it is MUCH easier to fight divorce in the same home...
Can you imagine how much more PANIC you will feel OIN if your wife is living ELSEWEHRE? You will have nO IDEA where she is or WHAT she is doing.. you will be a BASKET CASE
Want to avoid that? LEAVE yoru WIFE ALONE
DO NOT listen to the garbage.
Go to a bookstore, buy some books on marriage improvement... NOW... don't even reply, get UP and go buy them NOW... and READ THEM cover to COVER
You are right I did panic. I read your post but I can't retype to prove such b/c I am posting from a phone.
Her tone was pleasant this morning and I have not heard her talk to me like that in a while and I fell for it. I will not bring up the conversation with her again.
After I made my last post I had to get ready to run some errands and she became interested in what I was doing and where I was going.
The last thing I want to do is mess this up and I feel so fortunate she is still here and yes I panic.
I spoke with omw she said that her and om spend all day together yesterday. I also learned the brief convo my w and om had yesterday was om telling my wife "I told you we can't talk any more enough is enough. My wife is not playing, I don't even want to wave hi anymore"
Thanks again for the advice sorry if it seems like I am not getting it. My emotions are getting the best of me. I am looking for a good therapist in my area.
Quick question.
If she ask me to talk to her again or ask "ready to talk to me" in other word if SHE brings it up, how do I respond to avoid confrontation or pursuit?
Listen to what she has to say, if its positive stuff, then work with it... if its negative :
"I am sorry you are so upset. I am working informatlly with some family therapy now, and I am also looking for a Family Therapist in our area for me to talk to... I will leave you a busienss card once I have one. You are welcome to use it or not it's your choice"
And that's it. YOu show her YOU are working on YOU and tell her you are sorry she's upset and that's IT...
Do NOT validate her feelings in such a way that she will think you agree
If she says She' wants out, you just say I am sorry you feel that way, you don't say OK, you don't say Good for you, or anything positive to that.. its negative
The only thing you offer back from negative is that YOU are going to family therapy for some answers... you are setting an example of adult behaviuor that way...
If she talks about movign out, let her tell you how she feels, but if she wants your input, your input is to LEAVE the ROOM
Do NOT participate in any talk like that... she WANTS you to AGREE and SUPPORT her leaving? The answer is your back to her... not a WORD
Just say I am sorry you feel that way, MAYBE give her a hug, and then you walk out of the room.
She will likley chase you. Your position is the same :
When things are bad, you go to family therapy, you dont' move out, you don't leave, you don't cheat, you don't do ANYTHING destructive to your marriage.. you go to a professional and WORK on it...
It is MUCH more important that you DO this rather than lecture her on it... so YOU are doing to DO It.. to set an example for her...
I BET YOUR MARRIAGE on it that once you start going, SHE will be interested... I bet my life on it.
Ask mb28, her H didn't want to go either, but he's giong in for his second session soon... go figure eh?
Easy- just make something else up that you wanted to say.
The key here is to not stress her out AT ALL-
There might seems like there's an elephant in the room- but you both know it's there, so it's not even worth mentioning.
Seriously- you are SO fortunate-
Allen's statement about keeping on guard and up front about OM and OMW is spot on...do not get emotional about it or take a defensive posture...state it matter of fact and emphasisze the word protect.
NO R talk, no pursuing, no pressuring, no "hey cant you see I've changed..", etc etc etc.
If I had been posting here 2 months ago and not so focused on the EA, my W would likely still be at home.
Don't mention her hot and cold, or what seems to be unfair, or why am I making all the changes- it will seem very VERY unfair- but you CANNOT mention that.
It is what it is, you keep her comfortable, but not placate her, YOU stay balanced, positive and busy...and her walls will crumble.
You don't make her stay by doing everything and pampering her, but you keep it stress free.
She definitely needs to see YOU do some WORK on YOU...
And if you are PURSUING HER, you arne't working on YOU.. you're working HER instead...
the ONLY way you can work on her, is by working on YOU...
UNTIL she's working on herself, she's vulnerable to OM, so keep him away from her... good stuff there
Keep up the contact with OMW, good stuff.. always keep her in the loop.
I would also send those two some flowers... to BOTH of them.. telling them sorry to hear you two are having trouble, I hope for all the best.. etc
Send the COUPLE some flowers as a small gift to inspire some hope for them, AND to show them how ADULT you are... got it?
look OIN:
I am not a master at this DB thing but I am a woman. My instinct as a woman to your question above is to not be available to talk. Right now you need to give your wife space EVEN if she initiates the talk. Especially if she approaches you saying "ready to talk to me." Heck no, if you happen to be around the house say now is not a good time you were on your way out and then get dressed and go do something (gym, coffee shop, SOMETHING!). When a woman wants to talk, WE TALK AND WE START THE CONVERSATION! Women LOVE TO TALK :-) and we basically know that MEN HATE TO TALK.
Also, you need to start your therapy sessions ASAP!
Make sure it goes to BOTH of them, NOT just his wife or YOU will end up with OM in YOUR face lol
I crossed posted with Allen OIN. Follow his advice regarding talking to your wife but my advice is still ONLY if YOUR WIFE BRINGS UP THE CONVERSATION and she starts the talking FIRST.
Yup, 4luv you may be right.. I don't want OIN to end up looking like he's avoiding her like a child.. THAT is not good.
I think he should be willing to hear what she has to say, but if its not constructive, then you calmly exit...
That's my advice anyhow.
Some questions.
Say if I do laundry and I wash her work uniform...would that be considered being courteous or pursuing?
I listen to what she has told and I know she has said the other day when she left for work 140 min early that she did not want to be in the house. It just appears she is depressed when she is home. Would it be pursuit to say "It's a nice day out want to take the dog for a walk/ride?" If i is OK to ask such a question I don't know when an opportune time would be because all she does is sleep most of the time when she is home.
I do have materials to read, that's is how I found this message board. Besides DB and DR what other books would any of you recommend?
Maybe if you say- I'm taking the dog out, would you like to join me...
Doing the laundry that's THERE, you aren't pursuing, you are just being a good husband... ASKING her if she wants something cleaned is pursuing
Just cleaning what's THERE in the laundry room is all you need to do.
You invite her to walk teh dog with you? GOOD GOD MAN... can't you SEE that's pusuit? It's BLATANT pursuit.. why not ask her to renew your vows while shes' there?
LEAVE her ALONE
SHe NEEDS therapy, but she is NOT giong to GO until YOU do.. got it? If you want HER to act like an adult, you need to SET a GOOD EXAMPLE of it... and STOP PURSUING HER.. that is NOT adult behaviour, its childish and is NOT helping you
RE-Read divorce remedy... if you can't see inviting her to walk the dog is pursuit you didn't read that text carefully
Read Not Just Friends as well
I will see if I can find a few more titles for you
Let me put it THIS way...
If you have to ASK her or TALK to her, its pursuing
If you can do it on your OWN then its NOT
If you make dinner, that's good. If you ASK her what she WANTS for dinner, that's pursuit... see?
Just make the damn dinner and leave her alone... if she eats it, tha'ts fine, if she dont'.. that's fine too
leave her alone
And do NOT expect to see a chance in her for the next THREE MONTHS at LEAST...
I get the sense you are expecting an overnight change...
NOT GONNA HAPPEN
THis is something you have to WORK FOR... it takes a LOT OF WORK and TIME
Allen,
You are very insistent that you know how to treat a wife. But I don't see a thread anywhere where you tell us about your home life. Are you still married? Is your wife happy? How did you become an expert in human relations?
The fear of "pursuing" has grown to enormous proportions here. It used to be bringing flowers, begging and pleading. Now your definition includes any conversation with the wife at all. Don't be ridiculous!
The point has been made and bears repeating....men are not experts on what women want. Conversation is not pursuing behavior. Conversation is human interaction. And communication is the key to marriage. Yes, the reason your marriage is in trouble is because of communication failures.
Want to know what she likes about OM? She told you. He talks to her! He likes to talk to her. He listens to what she says. Is he so good at talking to his own wife at home? Probably not.
No woman ever fell in love with a man who didn't talk to her. I am a woman. I am intrinsically better qualified to talk about what a woman wants. And I can tell you that if she wants to talk to her husband, he'd better be ready to LISTEN. Not walk away!
Understood. I am getting it. Before I discovered DR book and this forum I read other materials that took a different approach which I can now see would be considered pursuit. I am just trying to break out of that mind set.
As I mentioned we are almost on month two of change and improving myself. I will be making calls today in attempts to find a good therapist.
I am willing to put the work and time in, just sometimes I start to panic because I feel like time is running out but I know by letting the panic set in I am being selfish and not pursuing my goal of becoming a better person.
Allen,
You are very insistent that you know how to treat a wife. But I don't see a thread anywhere where you tell us about your home life. Are you still married? Is your wife happy? How did you become an expert in human relations?
The fear of "pursuing" has grown to enormous proportions here. It used to be bringing flowers, begging and pleading. Now your definition includes any conversation with the wife at all. Don't be ridiculous!
The point has been made and bears repeating....men are not experts on what women want. Conversation is not pursuing behavior. Conversation is human interaction. And communication is the key to marriage. Yes, the reason your marriage is in trouble is because of communication failures.
Want to know what she likes about OM? She told you. He talks to her! He likes to talk to her. He listens to what she says. Is he so good at talking to his own wife at home? Probably not.
No woman ever fell in love with a man who didn't talk to her. I am a woman. I am intrinsically better qualified to talk about what a woman wants. And I can tell you that if she wants to talk to her husband, he'd better be ready to LISTEN. Not walk away!
Did not see your post before my latest post. My W never felt that she could talk to me and I usually just shut her out. She told me a few days ago that OM "was easy to talk to." In one of my past posts I had asked something along the lines of
- When you have been cold for so long in the R, what positive can come out of similar behavior of "not being there" for her
Either way I appreciate all the input and help. I am trying to create a better quality of life and in the process save my marriage.
Lotus. I am not suggesting all conversation is pursuit.
I ALSO do not advocate ALL of MWD's advice, I advcate SOME, and I disagree with some
The leaving the spouse ALONE and AVOIDING conversation is NOT from MWD, but it IS advice from FT science. There ARE other books out there besides MWD and they do NOT all agree with everything she says either.
I do NOT have a thread up here because my wife and I are piecing and I promised her I would NOT disclose our problems on forums... this was one thing she did NOT like me doing so I made a commitment NOT to do that... and she DOES read my posts sometimes. I am NOT going to post something that would offend her or disclose information about our marriage that she is not in agreemetn with me disclosing.
If she were having an AFFAIR right NOW, I would have NO inhibitions about it, i fully endorse EXPOSURE and that WOULD be exposure. I encourage those dealing with affairs right now to expose here and elsewhere, UNLIKE MWD who reccomends you do NOT expose...
Lotus, there are MANY on this forum who HAVE tried MWD's strategies for affairs and they do NOT work. I am reccomendign OTHER strategies from OTHER FT's.. GOOD ones... PUBLISHED ones...
Hardley, Glass, Spring, Johnson, McGraw, and others who do NOT endorse teh MWD approach letter by letter.
I do not presume to be an expert on what women want. I do NOT reccomend catering to teh whim of a WAYWARD SPOUSE who simply hurls ABUSE at their partner instead of offering something constructive.
Until HEALTHY conversation can take place, I do NOT reccomend ENGAGING in conversation.
There are MANY spouses here who start up conversation simply to BAIT A FIGHT to VALIDATE LEAVING...
Why would you reccomend these people PURSUE conversation? It's just destructive and unhealthy...
She liked talking to him because he WASNT her HUSBAND, he was NEW and MYSTERIOUS... THAT is why she talked to him, it wasn't because he's a good talker...
I do NOT expect OIN's wife to fall in love with him. I expect her to be MOTIVATED by adult behaviour enough to take PART in it and WORK with he husband again.
Being a WOMAN does NOT make you better qualified to offer advice, sorry, but we are ALL EQUALS on this forum. Being a man does NOT make me an idiot.
Catering to the WHIMS of a WAYWARD spouse just makes you ILL... it does NOT help solve anything. Their judgement is IMPAIREd enough to stray into an affair they are NOT in a place to be listened to blindly.
If they have only destructive conversation to offer, I reccomend WALKING AWAY.. YES, I SAID THAT before.. if the convo is DESTRUCTIVE.. walk away.. YOU didn't read that carefullly enough... despite you feeling mroe qualified to offer advice, you seem to have missed someting I had written several times
Destructive conversation should NOT be catered to... just LEAVE.. that's my advice.
Yes, a 180 means to do the opposite of what you would normally do. So, if you were cold, then to do a 180 means to be warm. These are the kinds of changes that you should make.
My marriage, and many others have been healed by going to a Retrouvaille weekend. We learned how to communicate effectively with each other. How to talk to each other without getting into arguments. And how to negotiate so that we both get what we want, not one or the other. You can find info on their website,
www.helpourmarriage.org. Two DB couples went this past weekend, and both found it helpful.
If you want to save your marriage, you will need to talk to your wife. But even more than talk, you will need to listen. Listen to what she says, and then try to explain it back to her. "This is what I think you are telling me,...." and ask her if your understanding is correct. You have much time to make up for. You will not make her love you ignoring her, or avoiding her, or any other such thing. You must always treat her AT LEAST as well as you would a stranger. If a stranger said to you, "I want to talk to you", would you find excuses to walk away?
- When you have been cold for so long in the R, what positive can come out of similar behavior of "not being there" for her
You are not trying to offer that right now, your goal is to set an example of adult behaviour first, THEN meet her specific needs.
Right now she isn't even in a STATE to receive them.. THAT is why MWD does not reccomend pursuit.. you are PUSHING your spouse into something they are NOT ready for.
I do NOT think your spouse is ready to be treated as if your relationship is on healthy ground, its NOT.
Until she has HOPE again, and CONFIDENCE in YOU again, she is giong to be difficult and vulnerable.
I DO reccomend hearing what she has to say. Do NOT shut her out blindly.. but if she starts talking about divorce plans or separation plans... LEAVE
If she expresses sadness, or feelings of being overwhelmed and lost, offer support, sympathy, but do NOT PUSH ANY affection or warmth on her that she may feel is ANY PRESSURE
SHe's like a piece of glass right now.. you need to handle with CARE... if you apply too much pressure, she's gonna BOLT
For the last several years, you have been NOT applying ENOUGh pressure and ignored her... so she fell.. NOW, you are reversing your approach and CRUSHING her...
You need to find healthy balance is all.
Listen to what she has to say, if its positive stuff, then work with it... if its negative :
"I am sorry you are so upset. I am working informatlly with some family therapy now, and I am also looking for a Family Therapist in our area for me to talk to... I will leave you a busienss card once I have one. You are welcome to use it or not it's your choice"
And that's it. YOu show her YOU are working on YOU and tell her you are sorry she's upset and that's IT...
Do NOT validate her feelings in such a way that she will think you agree
If she says She' wants out, you just say I am sorry you feel that way, you don't say OK, you don't say Good for you, or anything positive to that.. its negative
The only thing you offer back from negative is that YOU are going to family therapy for some answers... you are setting an example of adult behaviuor that way...
If she talks about movign out, let her tell you how she feels, but if she wants your input, your input is to LEAVE the ROOM
Do NOT participate in any talk like that... she WANTS you to AGREE and SUPPORT her leaving? The answer is your back to her... not a WORD
Just say I am sorry you feel that way, MAYBE give her a hug, and then you walk out of the room.
She will likley chase you. Your position is the same :
When things are bad, you go to family therapy, you dont' move out, you don't leave, you don't cheat, you don't do ANYTHING destructive to your marriage.. you go to a professional and WORK on it...
It is MUCH more important that you DO this rather than lecture her on it... so YOU are doing to DO It.. to set an example for her...
I BET YOUR MARRIAGE on it that once you start going, SHE will be interested... I bet my life on it.
Ask mb28, her H didn't want to go either, but he's giong in for his second session soon... go figure eh?
Lotus...Allen did encourage OIN to listen to his wife, just not to pursue conversation. OIN's wife is on edge and the tiniest bit of pursuit will push her further away. This happened with me and my husband while we were still living together.
Lotus...Allen did encourage OIN to listen to his wife, just not to pursue conversation. OIN's wife is on edge and the tiniest bit of pursuit will push her further away. This happened with me and my husband while we were still living together.
Thanks 4luv, I was goign to comment on that but you beat me to it.
The OTHER conern here is there is an affair brewing, 4luv I think you as much as anyone on this forum can attest that OIN being WARM during an affair is NOT going to bring his wife back. lol
I dont know HOW many people here have tried that and it just made things worse...
Can anyone say "Cake Eater?"
OK so far the rest of the day has played out as follows...
I was getting ready to do a little shopping and my wife became curious and asked "where you going?" I said "a few stores, your welcome to come if you like" she said "No" so I carried on doing whatever I was doing then she asked if I could pick up somethings for her the she made a list of items. I did get the items on the list.
we had a few conversations non-R related.
We received an invitation to a friend wedding in the mail, what do I do?
1. I would NOT invite her to come along to shop.. that is pursuit.. just TELL her what YOU are doing.. if SHE wants to GO she will TELL you.. stop chasing her
2. You survived the day.. congrats!
3. Tell her you will be going to the wedding. Do NOT ask her what she will be diong, do NOT invite her, do NOT tell her she's welcome to go with you.. YOU just tell her what YOU plan on doing and THat is ALL you SAY.
If she tells you she doesnt' have a dress or sometthing, THEN you offer something constructive like "I am sure you can find something great if you went to shop for one"... do NOT invite yourself along OR ANYTHING like that.. just be supoprtive
do NOT try to SQUEEZE yourself into her LIFE at ALL.. she will invite you in when SHE is ready
Lotus may disagree w/ me, but I think that is great advice about the wedding...heres the deal though- W might return some spew about you being rude or what-not. "It would be nice if you wanted me to go too..." something like that...be careful not to get sucked in...
Every sitch is different but the important thing is to always be civil and CONSISTANT
You guys are ridiculous again. I see the words "We were invited to a wedding", that means she was invited too. It is not in the power of the invitee to uninvite invited guests. You want to say that someone is not acting like an adult? Then I would say the person who makes an issue out of every little thing, who makes excuses when politely asked to schedule a talk, and who tries to uninvite an invited guest to someone else's affair, is the childish one.
Marriage, even a rocky marriage should not be a battleground. When his wife does go to a lawyer and seeks a divorce, will he say, "Well, some people who I have never met called Allen A and Maynard told me to act that way, so that's why I did it!"?
I had to post this b/c it is bothering me. My W just left 4 work and she aseemed very frustrated. Usually I would make her breakfast and pack her a lunch. This morning I just remained in bed and let her do everything for herself as a result she ran a little late and got upset in the process.
I understand I don't wasn't to pursue her and push her away at the same time I don't want to be so detached where she feels like I given up and push her away even more so.
Is there ever a case where "detached loving" is not necessarily the best course of action. How can sitting back and letting her do everything for herself improve our situation? All I can think is it will help her see that she CAN do WITHOUT me and bring her closer to leaving quicker.
I also wanted to add for the 7 weeks this has gone on my wife would not once consider what I had to say she did not want to hear my side of anything bottom line was her mind is made up and that is it. And then surprisingly she tells me she wants to listen and hear how I feel and she sounded very sincere and I responded with silence missing my opportunity to getting feelings across to her. How is not talking going to help our R. She has not brought it back up so did I miss my window or opportunity?
Officer,
You need to think for yourself. You are not a puppet, waiting for someone else's voice to come out of your mouth. No one on this board is a professional marriage counselor, myself included. I have the pleasant experience of having reconciled with my husband, and I believe that I have learned a lot from the experience. Most people on this board have not reconciled. In fact, to be blunt, most are headed for divorce. If you want a professional opinion, you should call the number at the top of the page and speak to a real divorce busting coach.
I think your wife made a mistake, but it may not have been a very damaging one. She did have an EA with a married man. Did it go further? Who knows. But I can tell you this in no uncertain terms, your marriage will continue to suffer if you keep punishing her for her actions. I know it feels like you are accepting the unacceptable to forgive her, but the marriage will ultimately die if you do not forgive her for the things she has done wrong to you, AND (very important) she needs to forgive you for what you have done wrong to her.
No, you are not making headway with this childish "you were mean to me so I won't do anything for you" behavior. As I said before, Allen takes the fear of pursuit way too far. Pursuit, according to Michele W. Davis is when you try desperately to get her to like you. The emphasis is on the word desperately. Not pursuing does not mean getting her to resent you or dislike you. It is simply not acting desperate. That is, it is fine to be nice to her in the normal way that you would be nice to other people. In fact, you should always treat your wife at least as well as you would treat a stranger.
You and your wife have had a crisis in your marriage. Yes, you should talk to her about it if she asks you to. I believe that you can have another opportunity. You can bring it up yourself. You can say something like, "You asked me the other day how I felt, and I wasn't ready to talk about it at that time. But I would like a chance to talk to you about both my feelings and your feelings. When would be a good time?" Or you can suggest counseling so that the conversation is in front of a neutral, third party if you feel that it might turn into an argument.
I can tell you from my experience reconciling after adultery, and after 27 years of marriage, there are many things that I can criticize my H for and I'm sure there are things that I do that bother him. But we have both learned to not say anything about them. The less I criticize him and the less he criticizes me the better we get along. We try to be considerate of each other and helpful to each other. Because that is what marriage is, a partnership in life to make things easier and happier for both people.
Let's take it one step further, let's assume that you ask for a chance to talk about your feelings and you get it. How do you talk about feelings?
Feelings are adverbs. I feel happy; I feel lonely; I feel uncomfortable; I feel sick, etc. If you are talking about your feelings it fits into a sentence in that form. On the other hand, if you say, "I feel that....as in, I feel that you were wrong, I feel that things are not good, etc. that is not feelings. Those are thoughts. What you are really saying is "I think you were wrong or I think that things are not good", etc. The test to see if what you are saying is really a feeling is to put it in the sentence form, "I feel ____________." If you don't need to insert the word "that", then you are talking about a feeling.
When you have this discussion you also want to avoid saying such black and white blanket statements as "You always....." or "You never....", because they are usually gross exaggerations. And it is important to talk about the truth, not to exaggerate and make things sound worse than they are. When in doubt, understate, don't overstate.
And the thing about having rules when you talk is, it's best if both people abide by the same rules. So we would hope that she also will talk about feelings and not what she thinks. And also would avoid making blanket statements.
That is how you talk about feelings. If it turns into an argument, then you might say, "I think for now, we have said enough. Let's think about this for a while and then we can talk some more." And you should consider asking her to go with you to counseling to help you put your marriage back on track or to a Retrouvaille weekend where they will teach you how to communicate constructively with each other.
I did not say this yet, because I thought it didn't need saying. But just in case it does need to be said, NO Name calling in your talk. If it goes into name calling the conversation is over and the fight has begun. And no one wins a fight between married partners.
But he's not uninviting her, he's letting her know what he will do as an invited guest...
How can sitting back and letting her do everything for herself improve our situation? All I can think is it will help her see that she CAN do WITHOUT me and bring her closer to leaving quicker.
It's about being Civil and working your 180's...when you R talk- even though you think it will help- you are applying pressure...when you offer hope, it is interpreted as not validating her "feelings" and trying to convince her.
Take her cues- Allen pointed out that the WAW is very flighty during these times- she can chose to pursue you or initiate things w/ you- when she does, do not get hopeful but be even keeled- if she comes and snuggles up w/ you when you are watching a movie- be recptive, and enjoy it- do not ruin it w/ "isnt this nice?, this is the way it should be or would be"
These things all happened to me and I effed it up by getting excited. The next day, I would invite her to lay w/ me and she would turn me down- hot and cold.
So take her cues, but don't force anything or encourage anything- it will seem very unfair, and she may lead you into R talk- remember do less talking than she does and when she does, validate, validate, validate...
It looks so easy now that I'm looking backwards- but it was SO difficult when I was in that sitch
I do like Lotus' segway into speaking about your feelings- that you were not yet ready at that time, and if there is a good time she wishes to hear those things...I do recommend it take place in MC/FT if at all possible
You guys are ridiculous again. I see the words "We were invited to a wedding", that means she was invited too. It is not in the power of the invitee to uninvite invited guests. You want to say that someone is not acting like an adult? Then I would say the person who makes an issue out of every little thing, who makes excuses when politely asked to schedule a talk, and who tries to uninvite an invited guest to someone else's affair, is the childish one.
Marriage, even a rocky marriage should not be a battleground. When his wife does go to a lawyer and seeks a divorce, will he say, "Well, some people who I have never met called Allen A and Maynard told me to act that way, so that's why I did it!"?
Lotus... are you READING what we type or just skimming?
I SAID in the POST to NOT INVITE, I dind't say to UNINVITE...
By NOT invite, I meant and I DID explain myself there to NOT PRESSURE or PURSUE the spouse to attend in any way. I did NOT in ANY WAY suggest to pressure or pursue the spouse to NOT attend
PLEASE READ WHAT WE TYPE before you post. I do NOT have time to correct posts that are misread. I am NOT being mean here, I am being economical with my time. If posts are read carefully, then I wouldn't have to clarify and I could spend that time responding to other posts instead of clarifying posts that were skimmed and as a result misunderstood.
Thank you
Thanks Maynard, you read my post correctly..
OIN...
First, I think its a sweeping and negative statement of Lotus to suggest most people on this forum are headed for divorce... MWD woudl NEVER endorse such a negative and hopeless comment.. IGNORE IT...
You can definitely save this
Lotus is on a good line of thought here when she works to clarify pursuit.
I don't agree with her interpretation, so I am going to offer a different one...
I am going to offer the one from MWD's BOOK :
Stop doing anything that your spouse might look at as pursuing behaviour.
Here are some examples of behaviour that I would consider pursuing :
Frequent Phone calls
Encouraging to talk about the future
Begging your spouse to reconsider
Soliciting help from family members
Pointing out all the good in your marriage
Writing letters
Following your mate around the house
Asking for reassurances
Buying gifts/flowers
Trying to schedule dates together
Spying on your spouse
In addition, it is essential that you stop saying I love you. I know this will be hard, but remember what I told you. Each time you say I love you, you remind your spouse that the feelings of love aren't reciprocal at the moment. My guess is that every time you say I love you, your spouse say's I know or remains silent. Not exactly reassuring is it?
You do at least HALF of these... No I am not FEARFUL of pursuit like Lotus suggests, but I can see where I believe you are driving your spouse AWAY rather than closer.
Your wife has told you that she feels you are too controlling... right? Well, guess what PURSUIT IS? It's an attempt to control your marriage...
Now, I am not telling you to not try to control it. That would mean to allow it to go out of control. But I will warn you that if you do something in an attempt to control your marriage that she finds offensive it will drive her further away.
So, yes, control your marriage, but do NOT do anythign that she will consider controlling. This is pretty much right out of MWD above. MWD says to avoid doing anything that yoru SPOUSE might perceive as pursuit (or controlling).
I think most of the things you do are perceived as controlling.
I DO disagree with MWD here and I am more in line with Harley and Tuppy (who are both practicing marriage counsellors both published as well) that if there is an affair going ON... and there IS in your household, you need to protect your wife from that.
This WILL be perceived as controlling, but if you don't act it will possibly mean the end of your marriage.
Some counsellors such as Harley and Tuppy, whom I am advocating here DO draw the line when there is a marital predator involved. Protect your wife from the predator, but at the same time do everything you can to aviod appearing as if you are controlling your wife.
This is why I suggested that you contact OM and OMW. THAT is going around your wife and not hassling her. I think this is the best compromise there.
Lotus, I haven't read anythign in OIN's posts to suggest there is a forgiveness issue here. I also havent' read anything so suggest that the affair is OVER.. I don't know where you are getting this stuff...
His wife is still pursuing this guy, and he's doing everythign he can to save his marriage... How on earth is that being unforgiving?
OIN the only problem I am seeing here is the pursuit. I do NOT advocate you inviting your wife out on dates... and discussing the wedding IS a DATE being planned. I woudl just tell her what you plan on doing and leave it open... if she wants to go, she just has to tell you. If she doens't want to go, then she doesnt go.. YOu don't CONTROL or PURSUE that in any way.
THAT is my advice there.. .RIGHT out of the BOOK.
page 127 of Divorce Remedy to be exact.
I had to post this b/c it is bothering me. My W just left 4 work and she aseemed very frustrated. Usually I would make her breakfast and pack her a lunch. This morning I just remained in bed and let her do everything for herself as a result she ran a little late and got upset in the process.
I understand I don't wasn't to pursue her and push her away at the same time I don't want to be so detached where she feels like I given up and push her away even more so.
Is there ever a case where "detached loving" is not necessarily the best course of action. How can sitting back and letting her do everything for herself improve our situation? All I can think is it will help her see that she CAN do WITHOUT me and bring her closer to leaving quicker.
Your wife needs to learn to be accountable for herself too... If you do everything she just sits around dependent on you.. under your CONTROL
You leaving her to make her own lunch gives HER control of her own day...
NOW, what I am gonig to suggest is that you leave her to do thsi while you do something PRODUCTIVE.. do NOT sit around and play video games while she's making her lunch...
Clean the house or wash dishes or something.
If after a few days she appears frustrated, make the lunch for her. Just casually tell her its there if she wants to take it... do NOT hand it to her with a smile and say I love you ... THAT is forcing your marriage on her... do NOT do that. I think after her doing it for a few days she may realize you ARE helping her in that way and its not too bad.. but ya, I would do what you did today by cutting back on the help... she MAY find help controlling in some caeses.
OIN, you need to understand that a big part of MWD's approach is EXPERIMENT.. MWD has no idea how the response will come out.. she reccomends you TRY soemthing , watch for results, and if it sint' working then try something else... but Ya, I would let her make her own lunch for a few days and see hwo that goes...
If she doesn't want to e controlled, you need to find out where the boundary is... so, let her control her own lunch for a few days .. if it looks like she would accept the help, then make the lunch and leave it to her to use it or not.
I also wanted to add for the 7 weeks this has gone on my wife would not once consider what I had to say she did not want to hear my side of anything bottom line was her mind is made up and that is it. And then surprisingly she tells me she wants to listen and hear how I feel and she sounded very sincere and I responded with silence missing my opportunity to getting feelings across to her. How is not talking going to help our R. She has not brought it back up so did I miss my window or opportunity?
If your wife wants to have a constructive talk, you listen to her. If she starts talking about divorce and separation... leave the room.
You can't win that one. IF you do anything other than support her idea, she will accuse you of controlling her.. if you DO support her suggestions tehn you are moving closer to divorce, you can't WIN that...
If she watns to just tell yo she's sad adn confused, certainly hear that.
What you need to tell her is that you made a commitment, you have NOT done well at keeping it, but you are willing to do anything you can to be a bettr husband. Tell her you need to learn HOW... and that you ARE going to FT to learn how to be a better H for her. Don't tell her you love her or anything like that (again right out of MWD's book). Just tell her what you are donig to remedy the situation and that's it. Tell her things will get better as you learn to be better.
End the convo when SHE wants to end it.
I understand I don't wasn't to pursue her and push her away at the same time I don't want to be so detached where she feels like I given up and push her away even more so.
Is there ever a case where "detached loving" is not necessarily the best course of action. How can sitting back and letting her do everything for herself improve our situation?
You'll have to take that up with Michele Weiner-Davis, O.I.N. It is her concepts we are preaching, and in which we believe really work.
I know it's all very counter-intuitive, but please give them a chance.
Puppy
My Wife had called me on her lunch break to ask "were you talking to anyone last night" not with anything to hide I said "yes" and she said we can talk when she gets home.
She got home before I did and when I got there she said "the reason why I asked that is because you insisted all these phone calls stopped but yet your doing the same thing" I explianed that it is not the same. I am ensuring that the OM and OMW wife understand the situation and for the better interest of our marriage as well as theirs all communication must end. She really had nothing to say in return but seems to think what she was doing was not wrong it was "just someone to talk to" and thinks I am doing the same thing. rather than make my point I just ended the conversation b/c I knew it would only escalate.
Is her issue that you are speaking to OM and OMW? Or is it that the calls were to be stopped at night?
not sure I follow...
Read the Mandatory Don'ts when DBing I posted...
You handled that well, I expected your wife to try that stunt, you did it well.
You stand your ground there, don't let her bully you.
And you are right, it IS VERY different.. you aren't getting DOLLED UP to make a phone call and lying to your wife about it.
You also arne't talkign to OMW about your marital problems and looking for a shoulder to cry on...
Its VERY DIFFERENT...
Tell your wife she is welcome to sit in on any of the calls you make to OMW.
Tell her you are not sharing any private details of your marital problems
Also tell her you are not hiding your contact from your wife or from OM... eveyrone knows you are making the call.
My guess is your calls are only five or ten mins long too arent' they...
Don't get defensive about her questions, its a FAIR quesiton to ask .. she wants to know what you're doin.. so tell her... no reason to hide anythign... you are protecting TWO marriages.. tha'ts something to e proud of, not something to hide or lie about.
Tell ehr she is mroe than welcome to sit in on the calls.
I would approach yoru wife about this matter if it was left unresolved... invite her to sit in on the next call... keep everythign above board here...
When you do this you are SHOWING your wife proper healthy social conduct...
You are setting an example when you make the calls above board and invite her.
Don't let her think you don't want to hear what she has to say... tell her she's mroe than welcome to sit in on the call... but that the OMW likely does NOT want to hear from her.. but she's welcoem to listen.
Make sure OMW knows your wife is in on the call.. no games
My W gave me the opportunity to speak to her. She first wanted to go over why I went to her work and how embarrassing it was and how people t work will not let it go. I told her I was trying to protect our M and whatever R we do have and the same could be said by OMW.
I told her I did an do talk to OM and he and his wife are working things out and he understand the importance that communication must stop for the sake of his marriage.
Then I spoke about the commitment I made to better myself and I will continue to do so and I am the process of getting in touch with a FT.
She said "I'm happy you are trying to better yourself so you can lead a happy life but understand I cannot ever get over or get past what you did and when I do leave don't think it is because I wanted someone else but because I can never forgive you."
I tried to get up and walk out the room and she said "where you going?" I replied "I think this conversation is making a turn for the worse and I don't want to inject negativity into it" and she said "I am just telling you how I feel and I want you to listen"
Then I get a call from a private number and she became curious as to who it was. So much she is now holding my phone hostage. My wife answered the phone and the person hung up and now it is bothering her so she is holding on to it. So I let her.
I told her "It was good to get the opportunity to speak with you, I have nothing to hide"
Well, that is all very amusing. Good for you for having the talk. So that cleared the air some.
Yes, forgiveness is a two-way street. She must forgive and you must forgive the things that have happened here, and even further in the past. It is a lot to do and it is not easy. I'm sure she does feel that she can never forgive you for embarrassing her, but time does heal wounds, and this will lessen as time goes on. I recommend letting it rest for now. Perhaps the two of you can agree to be nice to each other so that new hostilities don't make things worse.
OM is going to heal his marriage. So he is most likely out of the picture. Your wife is not so uncaring about you as she would like you to believe, or she wouldn't be worried about your phone. Take it as a compliment!
Try to be your good-natured, nice self with her. Ask her to try to be nice to you. Let life go back to normal as much as possible.
The OM is NOT out of the picture
1. OM and WS WORK TOGEHTER
2. WS approaches OM all the time
You have to monitor that situation ... do NOT ignore it. I made that mistake in my home and it came back to haunt me. I trusted it was over and it WASN'T.
As long as your wife is emotionally vulnerable like she is now and OM is in a position to contact WS, you need to keep on the look out.
I agree w/ Allen that theire proximity to oneanother and common drama/shaming may tempt them w/ another "common bond" so to speak.
It was good that you had the opportunity to listen and share- be used to that sort of testing/script/baiting when those opportunities arise.
You handled it well and I agree w/ Lotus that her taking an interest in your phone is a good thing.
Keep on guard and also like Lotus said- enjoy the times you do have that will be comfortable and peaceful...do not react when the temperature changes, just know that it will and act accordingly- and be consistant
When my wife tells me she will never forgive me she is referring to the years of mental and emotional abuse.
I will continue to monitor the situation as will OMW.
My wife thinks she is being "watched."
My wife is back to the stance she was in before the whole EA started, that I hurt her, she will never forget or forgive therefore will never be happy with me and as a result cannot be with me. She is "happy" I am working on myself and wishes me good luck in the future.
My wife tells me she can care less who I talk to she just cares that the person hung up when she answered. Not sure that makes much sense but that is what she tells me.
She still is as distant as ever and still set on leaving.
Note : I don't reccomend using the word "trying to " when you are talking about protecting your marriage. Don't sweat it, but in the future just leave it as
I AM protecting our marriage. If you saying "trying to" it sounds like you are apologizing and that you did damage instead.
You need to be VERY solid on these points to get your message across. They only absorb maybe half of what you ahve to say, so you need to be as clear as you can. You can also mention that when SHE dolls herself up and talks to HIM about YOUR marriage in private it humiliates YOU.
I had this issue with my wife too.. she didnt like me violating HER privacy when i was researching her affair. I simply countered that SHE was talking about MY MARRIAGE in PRIVATE with OM without MY CONCENT... which violates MY PRIVACY
So... if she says SHE was humiliated again, don't apologize. Just tell her that marriage problems should be discussed with a Family Therapist and speaking with male co workers should not be done in private. THAT humiliates your husband when you do THAT, AND it humiliates her because it spreads GOSSIP in the workplace.
THEN you tell her you are sorry she feels humiliated, add that YOU are sorry YOU were humilated and had to show up there. Then you tell her you WOULD do it AGAIN to protect HER and your marriage.
THAT is the best way to put that fire out I think.
---
If she is INVITING to conversation, you could just ask her outright...
"I have a female friend about my age who wants me to meet her for coffee to talk about her marriage problems... are you ok with that?"
My GUESS is she will say "NO"... but you ahve to be VERY careful here... if she says YES, then YOU look like an ass...
I tried this at home and it worked out well... my W Agreed talking in private about your marriage with an attractive member of the opposite sex is NOT a good idea.
YOu need to get your WIFE to understand that too. But be careful that doenst turn on you.
If she DOES tell you she's ok with it you just say :
"Well you shoudln't be... people CAN and DO have affairs... and VERY OFTEN its from someone at work or a freind who is havign marriage problems or something... if a friend you find attractive needs marriage advice, you send them to your SPOUSE or talk to them with your SPOUSE present ONLY... you don't talk to them in PRIVATE behind your wife's back... I would NEVER do that to you... And I ask the same of you... Its a matter of respecting your partner"
OIN you need to stop taking her negative stuff to heart, did you read hte mandatory don'ts I posted? Its RIGHT IN THE BOOK.. I worte them out SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU
Your wife needs time and a BETTER HUSBAND, THAT is the treatment.
Let her think she's being watched.. that's fine... just give her all the space she wants.. let her hold yoru phone as well... that's a GOOD SIGN that she doens't trust you.. it means she CARES what you DO.
She isnt' being WATCHED if you include her in your calls to OMW. And you just focus on their marriage and apologize for things getting so difficult. Send them some flowers and put both YOUR names on them and send them to BOTH of THEM. Tell your wife you are doing this... it will score you some points... invite your wife to sign the card or whatever.
Was there a number on hte phone when the person hung up?
Invite your wife to call the number herself if it bothers her... let her sleep with the damn phone if she wants to.
The more she covets that phone of yours, the more she loves you.. got it?
Let her carry the phone around as much as she wants. If you need to make a call, do it with her in the room.
Leave your wallet out too so she can go through it, dont' INVITE her to do that, just leave it out and see if she picks it up.
My wife claims if she would had answered the phone and the person on the other line asked for me she would have gave the phone over but because the person hung up it bothers her. The person did call back, my wife threw it on speaker, it was OMW and when I said hello the OMW said "is this 'insert name' " not knowing who it was b/c it was a private number I said "yes it is, who is this?" and then the OMW said "I have to go."
She told me I could take the phone back but if the person calls again to walk right over to her. Like I said my wife thinks me talking to OM and her talking to OM is the same.
You know and I know it is NOT the same but she is ignorant to the fact and still tells me "It was just talk."
I'm going to have to push more on to OM and OMW because OMW just told me today that her husband is now forced to park in the same lot starting tomorrow which means they will have to ride the shuttle together.
I did tell my wife that OM did tell me he requested to work opposite end of the work place. I did tell her OM told me he will go as far as changing his shift to get the point across and that is what I wanted to accomplish by saying that is, He is working on his marriage and is so focused on doing so he will avoid you at all costs.
Next time your wife says "it was just talk" you reply
TALK ENDS MARRIAGES..
TALK is how GOSSIP STARTS...
TALK is how AFFAIRS START...
TALK HURT HIS WIFE..
TALK HURT his marriage..
TALK isn't "just" talk.. its DESTRUCTIVE talk... it hurts FOUR PEOPLE at once
And if she challenges that you are talking to OMW you tell her
The TALK I am having isn't SECRET and I am NOT COMPLAINING about you.. I am PROTECTING THEIR MARRIAGE
And you walk away
I would tell OMW on hte phone in front of your wife
"my wife and I have no secrets... anythign you want me to hear she is entitled to hear too"
OMW will be discreet enough not to say something damaging to you I am sure... not to worry.
Tell OMW that your wife answers your phone sometimes and to not be afraid of your wife... OMW needs to understand the MORE OMW and YOUR wife talk, the less likely an affair is to happen.
Mabye that's not true, but I would LIKE to think communication there will buffer the excitement a bit...
And the other truth dart you can throw at your wife if she says "it was jus ttalk"
YOU : If you were just talking, you wouldn't need to do it in secret AND you wouldn't need to LIE to me about where you were going...
Your wife likley wont have anything to respond to that
YOU : I will not lie to you about who I talk to, or who I am with, I will keep NO SECRETS from you.. you are my wife and deserve respect, not lies.
YOU : If it was just talk, I would'nt have OMW calling me. Someone got HURT.
OK here is what just happened.
OMW calls while OM on the line. My W had me answer and put on speaker.
I told OMW that phone was on speaker and I wanted to keep nothing from my W. OMW spoke more to my W than me but express her feelings about the situation and under no circumstance does communication continue. I agreed and my wife said she understood. OM then got on the line and said all communication must stop, he got himself into some thing he did not intend to, that he was there to listen but did not realize my W had became so attached and for the sake of his marriage, his family and everyone involved insanity ALL communication must stop.
OMW got on the line again and spoke directly to my wife while still on speaker phone and said "You have a husband, I know you have your problems and you need to work on them with him, talk to him, not my husband and not any other male" My W just responded with words such as "understood" "I agree" and "I can take care of myself.
When we ended the call with the understanding and agreement ALL communication stops my W began to express her frustration with the way I treated her in the past and that I know she has trust issues and found someone she could speak to and finally get "10 years of pain out." I told her "I offered in the past and offer again, when can find a FT to talk to" She said "OK" I asked "want to go together or separate" she said "separate"
My W said she is sorry it was another male but I have to understand what I put her through. She started to laugh a little and said "If I don't laugh I will cry" I told her not to mask her feelings. My W then stood up and started to cry and said "I never knew talking to someone would create such an issue."
Now my wife has not showed such emotion to me other than anger in a long time. She then hugged me and cried. For 30 secs she hugged me and cried....then she pulled away and said "you know what I can hold it in, I held it in for 10 years I can continue to do so, I dont need anyone I've been by myself for 24 years and I guess I can live the rest of my life the same"
Now she seems to be against the FT thing and has shut everything out once again.
I realized this would go in bad cycle I then began to talk about our dog and brought the dog in the room and we joked and laughed about the puppy.
After we spoke briefly about the whole OM/OMW thing then went back into general convo and now she is in bed.
A lot to process where do I go from here....
Tell your wife she is welcome to sit in on any of the calls you make to OMW.
Tell her you are not sharing any private details of your marital problems
Also tell her you are not hiding your contact from your wife or from OM... eveyrone knows you are making the call.
My guess is your calls are only five or ten mins long too arent' they...
Don't get defensive about her questions, its a FAIR quesiton to ask .. she wants to know what you're doin.. so tell her... no reason to hide anythign... you are protecting TWO marriages.. tha'ts something to e proud of, not something to hide or lie about.
Tell ehr she is mroe than welcome to sit in on the calls.
Wisdom. ^Puppy
A lot to process where do I go from here....
You let her live up to the commitment she just made to you and OM's wife, without rescuing.
Puppy
YOu did well.
That my friend is PROGRESS... because you DIDN't PUSH her to talk to you... you waited for her to decide to tell you...
if you had cornered her and tried to DRAG that out of her you would have done damage. Because you gave her space she offered it to you.
OIN I really am getting tired of saying this.. but you have
GOT TO STOP TAKING WHAT SHE TELLS YOU SERIOUSLY..
She told you she would see a FT, so FIND one.. I told you days ago to start finding one.. do it.
I dont CARE if she said or gave you the impression she woudln't go... YOU GO
STOP ANALYZING her.. you are HANGING on EVERY DAMN EYE BLINK she makes... you are going to give yourself an ULCER
You know. I BET my HOUSE she can FEEL all this pressure from you watching every move she makes and worrying about it.. she likley feels SO MUCH PRESSURE AND SO DAMN CONTROLLED RIGHT NOW SHE WANTS TO SCREAM
YOU need to BACK OFF and LET HER BREATHE
STOP WORRYING about the NEGATIVE STUFF SHES DOING
JUST help her.
Every time she says or does something discouraging YOU panic.... SHE can SENSE that.. you are FEEDING HER NEGATIVE MOOD with your PANIC
I am NOT telling yuo to DANCE around teh HOSUE, but you NEED to BACK OFF and give her some positive energey.... don't say a word to her, but you need to relax
You are doing a FANTASTIC JOB dealing with this affair.. you got OM backing off and you aer right in there on that... I can't RAVE ENOUGH about how well you are putting that affair down... you are doing a MODEL job of that
BUT.. you need to back off your wife and stop getting worked up over her negative outbursts OK?
YOu need to CHILL OUT when she gets negative... you are MAKING HER STRESSED OUT I can FEEL IT FROM HERE
Back off of her, relax...
As soon as she said she would talk to a FT, you should have just said OK and left the room... but you DOVE RIGHT ON IT and asked if she wanted together or separate... AGAIN you are pursuing...
YOU did NOT need to know that right away... you should have backed up right away and let her breathe but you pounced on her because she sugested she would see a FT
You need to BACK OFF...
YOU need to see one FIRST and set an example, but you are in a HURRY to get HER in there... do NOT DO THAT
I have said this before and I will say it again... you CANNOT TRUST your FAMILY THERAPIST BLINDLY..
YOU need to go FIRST and interview them to make SURE they aren't going to RUIN YOUR MARRIAGE...
MANY FT's do DAMAGE rather than help
if you push your WIFE in there FIRST you are headed for TROUBLE
YOu are a COP, you should know better than pushign someone ELSE FIREST
YOU GO FIRST to make sure its SAFE
back off the wife, keep in contact with OMW so she feels safe and can work on her marriage and trust her H, and get to a FT... give your wife some space
If she talks, that's fine, but do NOT FOLLOW UP on EVERYTHING she says immediately.. you JUMPED on it right away... WHY
WHY did you NEED to know separate FT or together.. why did you have to push on that?
All you had to do was say "OK GREAT" and back off when she agreed to FT
You pushed her man.. you have GOT to STOP DOING THAT
MAN you are gonna drive your wife away smothering her... give her some space
if she wants a FT, you find her a good one, give her the biz card and then YOU let HER make her OWN appointments when SHE wants to do it... do NOT ORGANIZE teh whole thing
NOW.. she MAY ASK you to, THAT is fine, but you are getting too close here... ok?
Back up... give her some space.. let her breathe
I agree w/ the above- you are doing a great job, remember there will be alot of uncertainty from here on out and most everything will be in her time, not yours.
This is your sitch to blow at this point...I am incredibly envious of you right now.
Do not press, pressure, etc...Remember Allens description of a loving/concerned father- she is fragile right now, any pressure (overt, covert, body language, tone, stares, etc.) will get her flighty...Just be and set a great example for calm, and confident, and security...
You're doing great, just finetune these things.
really happy for you
I am having trouble finding a therapist in our area that have experience dealing with married couples. I don't want therapy destroy any opportunity of reconciliation. I read WMD on choosing the right kind of therapist and most in our area deal with depression and related subjects on individual basis.
From what I understand she just wants to vent, she is not looking for guidance she wants to get everything out since it has been bottled up for so long.
How do I help in the process of forgiveness with my wife? She is stuck in the past.
I am doing my best to follow guidance of the DR book and all the advice you all have shared in this thread. I am not pressuring her or doing things that would be considered pursuit.
- I am NOT saying ILY
- I am NOT talking about our R or M
- I am NOT talking about changes I made
- I am NOT forcing things on her
- I am NOT doing things like make her lunch or pick up after her, wash her cloths UNLESS she asks and when she does I happily do it.
- I do NOT make her feel that the was she feels is wrong
- I DO maintain a calm tone of voice and remain positive despite her negativity toward our M.
Today my W text me on her way home from work asking me if I would like her to stop and get a movie. I told her it was up to her, but then she said she would rather just go to the movies.
Excellent OIN, good stuff...
If she would rather go to the movies then let her go... if she invites you, that's great too
Dn't look for a Individual Therapist, make sure it is a Registered Family THerapist or Coules Counsellor sometimes they are called
And yes it is hard to find a good one .. make sure it is NOT some quack psychologist who is just going to diagnose her with depression, give her some prescription, and send her on her way... you DO NOT want THAT
You have the right idea, keep on the lookout for a good one... feel free to post their background and credentials here if you want us to review for you
YOu may be able to get a DB COunsellor from MWD here at her site... they work over the PHONE, but if your wife doens't mind that then you could do that as well...
Oh, regarding thes points
"She's not looking for guidance, she just wants to vent"
Well, she needs BOTH to be honest and a good family therapist will be able to SPOT that and offer both
You can't just let someone VENT and offer them NO HELPFUL advice, tha'ts pointless
The forgiveness comes with her MOOD.. .she can't forgive you when she is miserable.. the FT will help (if its a good one guide her into a healthier state of mind and a better attitude twoards her marriage.
You have to wait for forgiveness, you cannot FORCE that on her.. that comes along at the END of hte process.. it is NOT the first thing that's dealt with
You are doing well... she needs a warm sensitive husband and time to accept him.. keep up the good work
I understand what you mean. My concern is a therapist will tell her to "get out." We're talking years of verbal, mental and emotional abuse and from what I here she went as far as telling people it got physical. If she believes that so much she convinces herself it is real than what therapist is going to say there is hope.
I will take all the time necessary for her to heal but I am not sure how much time I have left until she decides to walk out and selecting the wrong therapist could cause her to walk out sooner.
I WILL be kind, gentle, positive and supporting. She needs that from me. She also needs someone other than me to open up to before she, once again, attaches to the wrong person. Like I said she has developed a friendship with a female co-worker who cheats on her husband with another co-worker of theirs. This is a terrible influence and that vulnerable state my W is in could lead her down the wrong bath further away from me and more importantly morality.
I am more concerned for her physical safety...
Any man that is willing to sneak around with her behind YOUR back and have sex with her... and ruin YOUR MARRIAGE while he gets off like some sleazy stalker... is NOT going to lead your wife down any safe path in the long run
less than ONE PERCENT of affair couples survive long term.. most end up breaking up in an ugly fight or one of them again ends up cheating on the toher... the success rate for affair couples is VERY LOW
From THAT YOU can imagine that any guy your wife runs off with is NOT thinking in HER best interests and will NOT put her SAFETY as his first concern...
Any guy that mounts someone else's wife is NOT putting that woman's safety as his first concern...
THAT is my concern, that your wife will hook up with a creep and get physically and emotionally hurt
Never mind morality and forgive me for saying so but never mind you.. affairs are physically DANGEROUS
I'd like to butt in here in speak as a woman. Maybe a female point of view would be helpful.
Officer,
You have mentioned a few times that she has some legitimate complaints. You have made some mistakes in being a husband that you do feel sorry for. I see Allen's point on not being too soft where there was an emotional affair. But I also see OIN's remorse at having handled some situations badly in the past.
I don't know if those things have been genuinely apologized for. It's not right to just look at his need for her to be respectful of his position as husband. We also have to look at her need for a husband who will be understanding, and nice to her. As marital partners everyone's needs should be taken care of. In my mind, that is the first thing, she has to feel that he has shown adequate remorse for his mistakes and is genuinely committed to being a better husband. To do this, he should go see an IC or the FT on his own. To let his wife know that he will make a real effort to better himself. Also, he should consider taking an anger management class.
At this time, she is probably dealing with the loss of a fantasy that helped get her through her days. She is likely to feel sad and resentful that something that meant something to her has been taken away.
I wonder how many of the men on this board frequently compliment their wives on the things they do. Not just Officer in Need, but Allen, Maynard, and all the guys. At dinner, how often do you say, "That was a good meal. You are a good cook."? Or when she has worked, and taken care of the house, and the shopping, and the meals, how often do you say, "Thanks for doing the laundry, or the dishes, or cleaning the pots, the whole kitchen, taking the kids to their activities, getting the projects and the homework done", or whatever. I can tell you that I have sat in a room full of unhappy couples, and when asked to say something nice about their wives, many of the men could not say one sentence. They could not come up with one thing she did that was a good thing about her. It's a pretty shocking experience. The wives live with it everyday.
I'm not trying to start a debate on "Who is more critical, husbands or wives?". I am saying that a man who is interested in saving his marriage, ought to be saying nice things to his wife.
Lotus,
I thank you for your insight and perspective on this situation. I do understand there are things I can say or do that would be considered pressure and could ultimately push her away farther. One question I had asked and continue to ask myself is "WHat positive can come out of being 'cold' when being cold is what got us here to begin with."
I think my wife deserves a husband who cleans, cooks, makes her lunch, lays her cloths out for her among other things because that is the wife she had always been to me and I never met her half way. She always did for me and I showed no appreciation.
I have gone to counseling to combat my past anger issues. I have spoke to counselor via phone in regards to my insecurity/trust issues. Each can only help so much before I have to put these practices into real situations.
I WILL take a step further and see a therapist. I want the help and I also want to ensure my W I am making positive strides to becoming a better person and even greater husband without telling her so. She will need to see these changes in me her self but she is so blinded by the past she cannot see the progress.
I am taking it one day at a time as she is counting down one day at a time till she leaves.
Sadly, I did all the cooking and most of the house work on the weekends, W was working every day...I most always told her how nice / beautiful she looked...
My M problems were that I was too frugal and did not show enough interest in my W's hobby/business...
It eats me alive that I failed to do so.
I do, every day. Always did. Not only are WOAs one of my wife's love languages, but it's simply The Right Thing to Do.
Puppy
I think my wife deserves a husband who cleans, cooks, makes her lunch, lays her cloths out for her among other things because that is the wife she had always been to me and I never met her half way.
A couple of inconvenient truths, or at least observations:
1)
Not while she is having an affair, no she doesn't. You do need to let her know that once she ends it, you are willing to address any and all issues, and you may in fact choose to DO some of these things (or similar things) in the meantime, if you feel they are The Right Thing to Do, but you shouldn't do them because you feel she "deserves" them, nor to get any sort of reaction out of her. LOVE may be unconditional, but BEHAVIOR is full of all kinds of written and unwritten civil contracts. Bad, foolish, destructive, or hurtful behavior doesn't "deserve" to be met by such kindnesses, in my opinion, and I would also argue that it even
enables more of the same destructive behavior.
2)
In my experience, women don't find these kinds of things to be very attractive in men, on average. We can debate that all day long, whether or not it "should" be that way (and for the record, I am a classic "Nice Guy," who loves to cook, buy my wife flowers, write her song lyrics, made her romantic CDs, etc.), but it just IS.
Puppy
Is see, Puppy. So you think it is just a coincidence that your wife turned around and came back to a nice guy?
Puppy,
Aside from this EA the underlying issue had been I did not love enough, care enough or to much of anything to show appreciation. I will still monitor her interactions with OM but to ensure there will not be another OM I have to exhibit behavior not of the past but rather someone who can love her unconditionally and show appreciation. I am in a tough situation...
As for an update... We did end up going to the movies, she was short with me and distant as usual. I did "test" her out by simply placing my arm on the same armrest as her, in the past she would move or adjust so I was not touching her and her me. We did share a few laughs. I don't like to read into too much but she used words like "we" and "us" but most of the time she tries to avoid those words. I held back by not saying or doing things that would had been considered pressuring.
I am doing a balancing act. Letting her know that I care through my tone and actions but not so much that I push her to discomfort.
Something I was curious about... Ever since the day my wife told me she wanted separation about 7 weeks ago she has been taking 3-4 baths in a 24 hr span. I know even before all this mess she like to relax in the bath often...maybe I just did not pay attention to her like I do now, not sure. Any ideas?
Is see, Puppy. So you think it is just a coincidence that your wife turned around and came back to a nice guy?
My wife responded me when I decided to start DATING, not that you really seem interested in any sort of reasonable discussion on this subject. You seem angry, and are fight-picking, and I'm going to choose to not play your game, Lotus.
Puppy
Yes, she responded when you started dating, but she knew what she had over the long-term, which was a man who treated her well and was faithful to her. I'm not angry. I do find that people often assume everyone comes from the same relationship background. OIN has stated more than once that for 3 years he did not treat his wife as well as he should have. And the advice just kept coming to be cold to her. I was trying to show that it was not a coincidence that your wife came back because, even if you were being cold in the short-term, she knew she could get her nice guy back.
Everyone's situation is different, and advice should be geared to the individual. Call me angry if you want, I have had a stomachful of the "I'm a man, hear me roar" postings that are all of the boards these days. Many posters advocate treating the wife like a lion, with a whip and a chair, demanding that she dance to his tune. It is demeaning to women who are equal partners in marital relationships.
I agree. But nor should she be treated as an idealized Princess. Neither is good for her, or for the relationship.
Puppy
OIN has stated more than once that for 3 years he did not treat his wife as well as he should have. And the advice just kept coming to be cold to her.
I would have to go back and re-read his thread. I don't remember anyone advising that he be cold to her; in fact, I specifically remember a lot of this discussion being prompted by his own question to all of us about being "lovingly detached" (or "detached love" or something very similar).
Loving detachment is not coldness. My overall DBing philosophy has ALWAYS been one of
simultaneously aggressively attacking any infidelity, while making yourself the better option. There's nothing better about being cold, rude, a dick or anything else. It's a fine balance, to be sure.
Puppy
Today was another one of those days where my W pushed all my buttons. I know I should believe 0 percent of what she says but she has once again made implications of leaving. She also made some comments with intent to piss me off. I admit I almost lost my cool but I held it together.
There has been hints of positive today but when my own wife pulls away from me like I am a complete stranger when I simply try to pick lint off her shirt makes me feel terrible.
Is this "normal" behavior of a WOW? It is like she has become bi polar sometimes It is good considering the situation and other times she is so cold and distant....based on the history and info I shared up to this point, can this still be saved?
Don't worry this is all typical for the WAS. If they see you walking down the street, they'll cross the street so that you don't accidentally touch them. Crazy thinking.
Rather than letting her get to her, start thinking of her as less you W and more like someone who has a mental illness. It helped me. I started imagining my W like the homeless guy down the corner who just mutters to himself all day.
It made things much more tolerable. Take control to make your life happy again. Your happiness isn't controlled by her actions.
Hold it, are you literally picking LINT off her SHIRT?
I HOPE this is just an exaggeration on your part...
I really hope you aren't doing something like that... unless she ASKED you to do it...
if you ARE diong that.. its PURSUING... don't do it.
Don't let her leave the house with a mess on her shirt, but just casually mention she may want to remove the lint or something...do not pursue
No lol. It was actually something smeared on her face that she was eating she failed to get it the first 3 attempts so I thought I would help, was not thinking of the whole pursuit thing but rather my wife had something on her and I was ledning assistance.
It is very odd as I stated b4, I get mixed signals. I am learning to remain neutral in both positive and negative situations today was a though one.
I would just get her a mirror... i dont reccomend doing anything closer than you need to... this isn't because you are being cold, but simply to give her the space she wants from you
Got it. If you don't mind I want to post what happened today....
My W and I go get our taxes done. We are newly married and first time home owners. Being a first time home owner we get a tax credit. Part of the agreement we have to own and reside in the home for a period of 3 years or else we have to pay the credit back. We both are on the deed and mortgage. So the tax prepairer gets up and walks away so mu W says "well at least one of us will be there for the nezt 3 years" which is implication she is moving out ect... Completely unnecessary and has stressed me out.
She threw some shots at me too but she did say after a couple of them "I'm just kidding"
I don't know how to read her.
You don't need to read her...cause she aint ready to be read nor pursued..
You need to worry about you. She's going to do what she wants whether or not you ever figure her out.
Stop trying to read her...
Did you read the Top Five Don'ts while Divorce Busting I posted?
IGNORE 100% of what she says...
You really need to learn to take those hits or you need to keep away from her.
I am going to give you an exercise here.
What I want you to do whenever you hear her say soemthing is to try to figure out what she FEELS like at that moment.
well at least one of us will be there for the nezt 3 years
sad, angry, resentful
Those are likley choices
But the MAGICAL part of this exercise is it helps you work with her bcuase you wont' COMMENT BACK once you realize how she FEELS
If you KNOW she feels sad, angry, and resentful you are'nt going to shoot back a nasty comment, you are likley going to remani silent
In my opinion that's the best thing to do when she takes a shot at you... just do what you can to read how she FEELS and then let it go
My guess is right now you aren't trying to "read her" at all when she says that, my guess is you are interalizing it and focussing on how YOU feel having heard that
This is a VERY helpful exercise becuase its something you need to learn when you are communicating... before you talk, you assess how your audience feels and you modify what you say accordingly...
Often people DON'T do the assessment at all and they just say something back and it does damage...
Rather than commenting, and rather than interlaizing and focussing on how YOU feel, try to gauge how she feels when she says that
and feelings aren't
"she wants to leave"
THAT is not a feeling.. that's an idea she gets in RESPONSE to a feeling
A feeling is
Sad
Angry
Happy
Hopful
Bitter
Scared
Frustrated
Lost
Lonely
THESE are what you need to divulge as the subtext of what she's saying
When she says' she's gonig to leave she's very likley trying to TELL you that she's feeling sad and hopeless
YOU need to work with the "I'm feeling sad and hopeless" NOT the "I am going to leave"
OIN, there are men and women on this forum who are dealing with a LOT WORSE than the bullets you are taking every day
1. Your wife isn't having sex with another man
2. Your wife hasn't moved out
3. Your wife hasn't filed for divorce
4. Your wife isnt' even staying in a different bed is she>
I mean seriously... I don't mean to diminish what you are going through but there are people on thsi forum with CHILDREN who are dealing with a LOT LOT LOT worse and they can fight it...
You need to grow.. adults learn to NOT internalize what the spouse says to them in these times and to respond and speak to the emotions your spouse is feeling instead
Talk with her emotions, not her words and you will handle this a LOT better
She is angry with you. I agree with that. You know how anger is, it lasts a while, and then it takes too much energy to keep up, so it fades. Of course, if you give her more stuff to get angry about, then she can keep the emotion going. But if you are making the changes and being a nice person to be around, how long can she stay angry?
As I said earlier, she lost her fantasy that she was enjoying. I know it hurts you that she even had the fantasy. But now she is dealing with its loss and she is feeling angry at you for taking it away. Just go on.
OIN- I have to agree w/ Allen...you are extrememly fortunate to be in the place you're in. TRUST ME...it can be much worse...and not to stress you out but alot of it has to do w/ how you handle things going forward.
Jere's the beauty of it...you REALLY dont have to do much!!! Work your 180's, validate...and that's pretty much it. The hard part is being able to NOT take things personally-
I've learned an awful lot from reading other threads and seeing what didn't help me and my WAW.
When my WAW was out, I called her like crazy- WRONG
When I would do everything and she would pick out what i didn't do , I let her know it was unfair- WRONG
I pursued- WRONG
I initiated R talk/ PT- WRONG
I invited her to C- WRONG
when I didnt do R talk or initiate PT and didn't invite her- things got better...the last straw was her sleeping out w/ other men...I couldnt take it anymore and flipped/contacted MIL.
You can do this
Here is one therapist I am considering
http://www.couplescounseling.biz/about/index.htmlOnly credentials I could find.
She looks OK, I would like to see something about SBT, but overwall she's got enough here that I would support you seeing her yourself to find out the details.
I really would like to see MORE on the site explaining what her position is on infidelity, marriage, divorce, private vs shared sessions, etc
KNOWING where their boundaries are, how they go about their work, and what their policy on divorce is, is very important... but she's not posting any of that...
So you will have to get a session yourself and find out.. the good thing is, your wife will see you going and it will help you out... it will very likly give her some hope and motivate her a lot more...
I called the therapist today. She does not recommend individual sessions, she likes to address both H/W. Her approach is not to reconcile but rather get a better understanding of where both H/W stand on the current state of their R and how to make the process easier whether it be reconcile, separate, divorce.
Of course with the attitude my W has right now is to separate I don't need anyone, especially on a professional level, suggest that leaving is the answer.
I wanted to add that the therapist told me that her approach would be to confront my W and say to her "if your going to stay start making it work, if not start the moving on process, enough of games" her theory is the more positive change I make the more resentment my wife will have because it will force her to change as well and right now she is comfortable with being angry with me. The more "180s" I make the more my W will think "He was not like this before and now he want to change" therefor causing more resent toward me....I don't like her approach to say the least.
Wow! That's downright scary!
Allen's idea of getting phone counseling from the Divorce Busting coaches sounds good to me. You could start with individual counseling and then see about moving it into joint counseling. In the meantime they will help with ideas on how to rebuild the friendship with your wife.
I noticed in the reconciliation with my husband, that we were really improving when I started laughing at his jokes. When I was angry at him, I just gave him a ha-ha when he made one of his jokes. But when we were getting on better, I realized I was laughing with him for the first time in a long time.
Allen's idea of getting phone counseling from the Divorce Busting coaches sounds good to me. You could start with individual counseling and then see about moving it into joint counseling. In the meantime they will help with ideas on how to rebuild the friendship with your wife.
Some tips I got from a coach:
* Give her her space. Take this time to work on yourself.
* Show her through your actions that you are taking this rift in your marriage seriously. Counseling, reading books, etc.
* When things are a little better between you and your wife, you might occasionally ask her if she wants to go do something with you during your GALing. If she doesn't, then go anyway. You are being interesting without being secretive, and you aren't shutting her out of your life.
* Also, show some interest when she mentions things she wants to do or see. If she doesn't invite you, no big deal; you have other plans.
I wanted to add that the therapist told me that her approach would be to confront my W and say to her "if your going to stay start making it work, if not start the moving on process, enough of games" her theory is the more positive change I make the more resentment my wife will have because it will force her to change as well and right now she is comfortable with being angry with me. The more "180s" I make the more my W will think "He was not like this before and now he want to change" therefor causing more resent toward me....I don't like her approach to say the least.
Oh, sure. Always better to be a COMPLETE JACKASS, and of no redeeming social value. That way they won't feel pressured by any actual, you know, HUMAN CIVIL BEHAVIOR.
And yes, I'm being facetious.
Dump the counselor.
Puppy
I wanted to add that the therapist told me that her approach would be to confront my W and say to her "if your going to stay start making it work, if not start the moving on process, enough of games" her theory is the more positive change I make the more resentment my wife will have because it will force her to change as well and right now she is comfortable with being angry with me. The more "180s" I make the more my W will think "He was not like this before and now he want to change" therefor causing more resent toward me....
In all seriousness, although I've never heard the highlighted part expressed before, and I do think your therapist is FOS with her advice to you. But a betrayed spouse DOES need to address their spouse's "Why are you only changing NOW, now that I've (decided to leave you/had an affair/filed for divorce/whatever)." And they need to answer it in a serious way.
The best response is a sincere "I agree, there are things I wish I would have changed before. When I ________ , I know that hurt you, and I've apologized to you already for that. All I can do is try to become a better person, and do the right thing, regardless of what happens between us, and I've decided to do that."
Or similar.
Puppy
Or "and OUR MARRIAGE is WORTH that."
on the end.
Yeah my W did ask that question when this all began but not having the knowledge then as I do now I failed to give a convincing, non-typical answer.
Last nigh and today my W and I have engaged in non-R conversation. I showed interest in everything she had to say and laughed at her jokes and in return she laughed at mine. Today we sat down and watched some TV and again exchanged convo about events on TV along with laughs.
My wife has asked me to do a few things for her and asked my opinion on decisions she had to make about non-R issues.
My W expressed interest in going to a concert (her and I).
I am currently re-reading DR.
You can't read DR too much.
Your post does not mention OM, so I am assuming you don't have much new to report there... that is a good thing.
Pick up the tickets for the concert. Don't make a huge deal about it.. certainly do NOT thank her for going with you.
You do NOT want to look pathetic or needy... just tell her it was fun and you hope she had a good time and leave it at that.
Yeah, I am just re-reading the parts you have suggested I go back and read in your previous posts.
According to a friend who is a co-worker of both OM and my W, he said communication between the two have stopped other than that considered work related.
OMW said she would contact me if anything surfaced in the phone logs. I guess no news is good news but I plan on calling her tomorrow to see how things are going between them.
My friend did say that my W is chatting a lot with this other women who I would consider a bad influence for my wife. the other women approached my friend about somethings my W had told her and my friend said to her "All I can tell you is I know her husband, I know he loves her, listen to her but I would not give her advice."
I really don't want to get others involved here other than a professional.
If we do go to the concert, it will be a 3 1/2 to 4hr drive.
Just take some music along to the concert, a book, whatnot... its HIGH RISK of a fight opening up being stuck in a car with her for 4 hours ... be VERY CAERFUL you have something to avoid conversation building up...
That's goign to be a very dangerous drive as far as your relationship goes... be very careful there.
Yup, keep calling OMW and checking up on them... just be reassuring, tell them you hope everything is going well for them etc... send some flowers to them as a couple.
Your telling others to hold off on the advice is a good choice, I am afraid though that the bad influences may not have anything good to offset them.
In all seriousness, although I've never heard the highlighted part expressed before, and I do think your therapist is FOS with her advice to you. But a betrayed spouse DOES need to address their spouse's "Why are you only changing NOW, now that I've (decided to leave you/had an affair/filed for divorce/whatever)." And they need to answer it in a serious way.
The best response is a sincere "I agree, there are things I wish I would have changed before. When I ________ , I know that hurt you, and I've apologized to you already for that. All I can do is try to become a better person, and do the right thing, regardless of what happens between us, and I've decided to do that."
Or similar.
Puppy
This. And I agree with PDT in that your therapist is nuts to advocate approaching things in an antagonistic manner.
But your therapist is correct; if you make lasting, essential changes to your behavior, your relationship cannot help but change.
The Solo Partner by Phil Deluca goes into this in depth, and some of the other concepts in his book should be familiar to DB'ers.
Getting Back Together by Bettie Young and Masa Goetz is another good book about what
you can do to work on yourself and trying to mend your relationship.
In your opinion if I ask my wife to attend a gathering of my co-workers who will be bringing their spouses would that be considered pursuit or pressure? If she says no I will go anyway if she says yes and goes could that cause further damage?
In the past I would / did not invite me W to such occasions so this us one if my many 180s
Are you saying that you usually didn't invite your wife in the past?
Sorry I am typing from phone and I left words out while adding others.
That is correct, I DID NOT invite my W in the past.
Tell her about the event, and that she is welcome to come along... do NOT ASK her to GO... THAT is pursuit
The IDEA OIN, is to leave HER with the control to chosoe or not.. without ANY influence on your part.
if you ASK someone out, there's influence on your part for them to say yes.
if you INFORM her of the event and tell her she's welcome to come along if she WANTS to, or to not go... there's no pressure.
Do not INVITE, just INFORM... there's a BIG difference, a HUGE difference for your wife..
if she has issues with you controllin her, do NOT INVITE her, just inform her about the event and tell her she's welcome to come along and leave it up to HER... ZERO PRESSURE for her to GO or to NOT GO...
Tell her about the event, and that she is welcome to come along... do NOT ASK her to GO... THAT is pursuit
The IDEA OIN, is to leave HER with the control to chosoe or not.. without ANY influence on your part.
Agreed. I had a DB coach give me similar advice; if you want to do things with her, let her know what is going to happen and let her know she is welcome to go with you. If she wants to go, she can tell you, and don't let her participation affect your decision to go.
Lets look at it this way OIN
Have you ever fed a wild animal in a park like a squirrel or a chipmunk?
They RARELY if ever accept something from your hand...
If put the gift OUT there, they will likley pick it up and scurry off with it, but if you try to PRESS them to take it by walking towoards them or by trying to bait them into taking it from your hand, they will likely run away.. or at the very least decline the offer.
Your wife is that wild animal right now... put the gift out there, but let HER decide if she wants it...
Make yourself dinner and make extra, let her know its there and leave her alone... If she takes it, that's great, but don't offer to make it for her, don't prepare the meal and hand it to her or anything... just make it and leave HER to PURSUE it
Yes, she may accept it, but you are still applying PRESSURE.. what you are trying to DO here is to create a BUFFER of space so SHE can come to YOU...
If you SMOTHER HER and are hanging at her heels, she won't pursue you, she will have no inclination to be curious or to explore what you are about or anything...
You need to give her the space so SHE can come to YOU...
got it?
Understood. Makes sense. I will not make an offer to do something or go somewhere but rather say I am going to do something or go somewhere and say to her she is welcome to join
Dialog from conversations with my wife
Me: "On such and such day i plan on doing this or that, you are welcome to join"
W: "its up to you"
I wouldn't mention it again...you did your part- the rest is actually up to her, even though she put it back on you
"I would prefer if you came with me."
Actually, that might be "I would prefer if you come with me." Either way. I'm not sure of the correct grammar. But the correct thought is that you would like to do nice things with your wife because you love her and you love to be with her.
I get the idea about the wild animal not wanting you to approach it. But the pussycat comes close and wants to be petted. People are not robots with buttons that make them act certain ways. Your wife is a person who will respond in her own way. If you are not warm and friendly to her, someone else will be and she might prefer to spend her time with him.
All this talk about being "lovingly detached" What is that? All I see is detached. And detached has a coldness about it. Where is the loving part? Your chance to act loving to your wife is now. If you miss your chance, when will you get another one?
All this talk about being "lovingly detached" What is that? All I see is detached. And detached has a coldness about it. Where is the loving part? Your chance to act loving to your wife is now. If you miss your chance, when will you get another one?
Bingo.
Trying to heal a marriage means accepting that things will be unbalanced for a while, that you will be the one who is putting more effort into the R than she is.
If she puts it back onto you OIN just leave it as is... don't say anything and just go on your own.
Do NOT REPLY to that, its a trap.
I get the idea about the wild animal not wanting you to approach it. But the pussycat comes close and wants to be petted.
Clearly you don't get it Lotus, Pussycats are NOT wild animals... right now his wife is NOT in a domestic cat state of mind, she's a wild animal in a cage, she's made this clear to him on a number of occasions.
Just leave her be OIN... she will come to you when she's ready.
Right, get your chair and your whip so you can tame the lion! Do you have a top hat and tux jacket?
And her motivation to stay in this marriage is.....what? She likes to be treated like a wild animal in a cage? I seriously doubt it!
I am not taking the bait lotus...
If you are going to deliberately misinterpret my posts so be it.
Try to confuse the other posters all you want, I trust their capability to see through that.
I agree, perhaps the wild animal in the cage was the wrong image- although the cage represents that she feels trapped and insecure...
the image of the squirrel or bird is the point- let them come to you, no pressuring or pursuing, no stress...like a turtle in its shell...will peak out when its safe and comfortable
You got the analogy right Maynard, thanks, I was sure what i wrote was clear enough... thanks for the support.
And no, I don't consider it the wrong image.
WHen your spouse is wayward, they are NOT cooperating and they ARE dangerous to themselves and others... they are WILD.
And they feel contained in a marriage, and they instinctively want OUT... its a perfect image to convey the situation.
Though my w attitude is pretty much the same it seems communication between her and I has got better. She does not give me the cold shoulder shrug as much as she use to.
We engage in a lot of small talk and I stay away from R talk. I heard her say the day I confronted her about OM that "he is easy to talk to." I knew that is a need I will have to provide becoming a better listener so she feels more comfortable talking to me. I always try to say less than she does and speak in a calm inviting tone.
Yup, this whole exercise is good for you... loving detachment you CAN listen to her if she's being constructive... but don't pursue... which basically means listen but don't speak... so this is a perfect exercise for ya
My wife decided to take my phone again today and started to go through all my sent and received calls. She then wrote each number down. I the proceeded to tell her what each call was and to who afterward she said "I don't really care, its just u did it to me, its doesn't matter to me"
Well I had not ever did that to her and if it did not matter why did she doo it in the first place
I agree w/ the analogy then- had to change some things in my sitch...I do like the danger to themselves and others...I can def relate to that- wreckless, selfish, fast, sloppy, un-caring, flighty, and FIESTY!!
sorry cross posted
Just let her do what she's doing.
Marriages should have NO SECRETs.
she doesn't need to know how many times a day you blow your nose, but you shoudl KNOW what you would WANT to know.
I like Dr Phil's advice
If you wouldn't do it when your spouse is there watching you, its cheating to do it behind their back.
So, don't do anything behind our wife's back that you wouldn't do in front of her...
No secrets.. that's the healthy way to go.
She likley feels like you have been hiding info.. Many spouses having affairs get paranoid.. its just something jung referred to as mirroring your own misbehaviour in others. In short, since SHE was straying, she immediately suspects you are too.
Don't challenge her, let her go through the phone all she wants... you are showing her an example of an adult by handing the phone over.
This is again much like a wild animal sniffing your ankle to find out of you are safe to be around... don't worry about it.. let her sniff at your ankles all she wants to.
Don't show anger, dont' be smug or laugh. Just wait til she's done and thank her when she returns the phone. Full disclosure of your acitvities is important to building trust.. and you are setting an example here.
THe more YOU turn over your materials with no challenge at all the mroe she sets HERSELF up to commit to the same thing later on.
Eventually you will ask her for her phone and do the same thing.. but right now let her learn how full disclosure and trust works just one-way.
She doens't realise it right now, but you are teaching her how SHE will behave later on... you are setting an excellent example for her.. keep it up.
be wary of further inquiries into OM- I think that should be done w/ FT/MC
A last minute agreement me and my W decided to go to a concert. It was a 1hr 1/2 drive. The drive was not too bad we talked abot non-R topics and at time shared a laugh. Something that shocked me was my wife wore her ring for the first time in a month. I said nothing about it.
At times she was short with me but in all we had a descent day.
Good call on not mentioning the ring, you are getting the hang of it.. that was VERY GOOD to just let it go... if you had made an issue of it she would have removed it and you would'nt see it for a LONG TIME...
Your wife needs to approach you at HER PACE and you need to be very careful not to scare her off my staying calm... think like feeding squirrels in a public park or something... it is a great way to understand the process... go feed some for practice.
There is another way of looking at it. Your wife feels bullied. So she is pushing back. First, to show you what it feels like, and secondly, just in case it is worth doing.
I have tried to make the point before that marriage is a voluntary relationship. People stay with their spouses because they want to. Just because you say she is "your wife" does not make her your property, like your car or your dog. When she decides that life with you is not in her best interest she will look for better options.
My opinion is that she was not looking for an affair when she started talking to this other guy. She may not have exercised adequate caution, and she did get hung up on him. But he did not want to get romantically involved with her, so it is over. However, if you keep treating her like she is your child, who you can make rules for and keep in a cage, you will now lose her. You haven't lost her yet. But if you continue these strong-arm tactics, you will.
I cannot believe that the advice given on this board which is devoted to healing marriages is to use surveillance on spouses, embarrass them publicly, and distrust everything they do and say. And withhold all kind words and gestures.
The cornerstones of marriage are love, trust, commitment, and forgiveness. Without all four of those attributes, marriages fail. You cannot rebuild your marriage on distrust, grudge holding, and silence. Anyone who advises you to do so is not doing you any favors.
We aren't rebuilding a marriage lotus, we are PROTECTING a marriage, THAT is done on other cornerstones.
Your idea of building a marriage is a worthwhile one, but it is akin to decorating a home while someone is taking a sledgehammer to the outside walls... its POINTLESS and INEFFECTIVE when affairs are taking place.
If you don't like the advice most commonly used to protect marriages from an affair I would suggest you visit other forums that do not have affairs are their primary focus. You aren't going to read much about home decorating here... this is a serious forum with third parties ACTIVELY and DELIBERATELY trying to DERAIL a marriage in secret...
No ONE HERE is grudeholding or reccomending absolute silence. We DO reccomend active and forceful precautions take place to protect the marriage from further third party damage... this is not "grudge-holding".. its common sense.
NO one is recommending OIN treat his wife like a CHILD either. I "cannot believe" you keep SKIMMING posts and have the audacity to criticize those posts that you haven't even read carefully. Before you CRITICIZE something specific you had better QUOTE it and stop using clumsy paraphrases that bypass the original intention of the author.. its rude to say the least... and misinformative to the reader. Your own comments are welcome here, but when you decide to ATTACK other's comments you risk confusing the readers... so if you DO attack someone's post - QUOTE THEM PROPERLY and DO NOT MISREPRESENT others' posts.
I apologize but this is NOT the first time you have misrepresented what I and others have posted. I am getting very frustrated with you lack of care in reading what's written.
You don't seem to have any background or understanding in the published material out there for combating infidelity in the home either.
I suggest you start to read infidelity experts like Tuppy, Harley, and Glass, THEY know how to fight affairs, and they don't do it with candy and roses.
And your comments "she may not have exercised adequate caution" is a bit timid to say the least... MAY NOT? She was seeing him in SECRET and OVERTLY LYING to her HUSBAND about it.. all you can say is "she may not have exercised adequate caution?"
And regarding "But he did not want to get romantically involved with her, so it is over"...
YOU have NO IDEA what is intentions were... or ARE. Furthermore you have no IDEA it is OVER EITHER... just because your spouse says its over does NOT IN ANY UNIVERSE mean its OVER. There are COUNTLESS posts here from spouses who "trusted" their partners when they heard "it's over" and ended up BURNED for it...
Please STOP encouraging abandoned spouses to be naeive about affairs, it is NOT CONSTRUCTIVE...you are putting marriages at RISK of further third party damage.
I have yet to see you offer advice that is in line with any of the material from published infidelity experts. The advice we offer is from people in the field if infidelity who deal with it full time every day and have done for many years.
Lotus,
I hold no grudge toward my W. I understand my past actions and slander would had drove any woman into another. The fact she did get emotionally attached to the OM does now make it that much harder to reconcile with her.
I take bits and pieces of advice provided on the message board because in our situation, going any colder or becoming any more detached will cause more problems.
Ways I do not pressure or pursuit:
- say ILY
- talk about the future
- talk about our R
- say I changed or things are better so ask for another chance
- ask her to stay
I show through my actions and pleasantness I have changed and I do love her and hopefully she realizes I am not being manipulative and decides to give our R another try.
I admit that some advice has created more distance between her and I, in the past b4 all this happened I was not very affectionate and now that this is happening I am still not affectionate because of the fear of pushing her away more. Part of me wants to do it because it would be a 180 but oyher part is afraid to do so because i of the unknown of her reactions.
OIN, that's why you set goals first...
then monitor and record what works and what does NOT work. If you do something that pushes her away; don't do it again. If something you did, or didn't do, brings her closer or has some other positive effect; make a note to continue that behavior or action.
Everyone's sitch is different; there is no cookie cutter approach to this. But you will never know the results without effort.
Before you CRITICIZE something specific you had better QUOTE it and stop using clumsy paraphrases that bypass the original intention of the author..
You mean like this?
I suggest you start to read infidelity experts like Tuppy, Harley, and Glass, THEY know how to fight affairs, and they don't do it with candy and roses.
Please quote the post from Lotus where she says that you should give candy and roses to the cheating spouse. Or is strident interpretation only reserved for people
you don't agree with?
I never said she did say that. i simply said that experts don't reccomend that.
It wasn't a strident interpretation, it wasn't an interpretation at all. I am implying that being NICE doens't work. A common line of thought in infidelity expert's thoughts on the subject is that being NICE will NOT make much of any dent.
I could go back and find many posts that contradict experts on teh subject not to mention MWD herself if you like, but again, my time is valuable and its best used to help those here combatting affairs, not debating strategies that are already well-researched and laid out in texts for people to read on their own time.
I would love to post the entire book of Not Just Friends on this site if I had the time, but I certainly don't.
But I will post this, an endorsement from MWD that is printed on the COVER of Not Just Friends :
So illuminating, instructive, down-to-earth,and inspiring that it truly transforms lives. Since no marriage - including yours - is immune to infidelity, this book is a God-send.
That being said, I think MORE attention should be paid to such experts in dealing with affairs. I have yet to see Lotus post one single reference from an infidelity expert...
The idea of dismissing expert opinion in favour of her own is what I consider "strident" in this case. And I wasnt' the one who opened the subject.
If you are going to attack someone's advice, its best to make sure yours at least has some credible refrence to back it up.. in this case there's none.. simply clumsy Sabre Rattling
I would love to post the entire book of Not Just Friends on this site if I had the time, but I certainly don't.
But I will post this, an endorsement from MWD that is printed on the COVER of Not Just Friends :
So illuminating, instructive, down-to-earth,and inspiring that it truly transforms lives. Since no marriage - including yours - is immune to infidelity, this book is a God-send.
Interestingly, I have it on very good authority that MWD herself is good friends with the Harleys. I don't think she would necessarily disagree with most of their concepts that have been thrown around here, so long as they are properly sourced.
Puppy
She may not have exercised adequate caution, and she did get hung up on him. But he did not want to get romantically involved with her, so it is over. . . .
I cannot believe that the advice given on this board which is devoted to healing marriages is to use surveillance on spouses . . .
The one is a little hard to verify without the other, don'tchathink?
Puppy
As I understand it, in this instance, the two couples held the conversation over speakerphone so that everyone heard what was said.
Ah, here is an example of what Allen A is referring to:
You must take this opportunity to prove to her that you can do something you haven't been doing for some time: Meet her most important emotional needs. First, you need to discover them. What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.
Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.
From
What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2 by Steven W. Harley
Ah, here is an example of what Allen A is referring to:
You must take this opportunity to prove to her that you can do something you haven't been doing for some time: Meet her most important emotional needs. First, you need to discover them. What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.
Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.
From
What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2 by Steven W. Harley
Trent,
That example is one where the woman has already ended her affair, and come back to the husband. You're taking it out of context.
Here is the paragraph immediately preceding the one that you quoted:
First, let's analyze the problem. Over the past few years, you and your wife have grown apart. You have become incompatible, and you are not meeting her emotional needs. She probably isn't meeting yours either. She found someone who meets her needs, and was willing to give up her relationship with you to be with him. She comes back to you reluctantly, because she has no choice. But it gives you an opportunity.
Harley teaches that you can't meet the emotional needs of a spouse when they're still actively cheating -- they will be physiologically blocked to you. You must first separate the addict from the source of the addiction, and THEN, yes, you need to set about the hard work of repairing the marital relationship, including your own role in its demise, including not meeting their emotional needs.
Puppy
As I understand it, in this instance, the two couples held the conversation over speakerphone so that everyone heard what was said.
Um, you do know that people who are cheating LIE, right? Like, pretty much ALWAYS?
Look, I'm not in favor of constant snooping. But there are some very specific times when it's appropriate:
In general, I'm only in favor of snooping when:
- your initially trying to confirm an affair;
- as a gathering of evidence for a "cause" legal action of adultery, or to help you make a decision about custody;
- to confirm no-contact, as part of a MUTUALLY-AGREED-UPON transparency plan;
- you are concerned about dissipation of marital assets, or a drug, gambling or alcohol addition, or some other behavior that might prove harmful to the family.
Puppy
Also pup, you can USE the intel to seek out support during exposure phase... very often if you have no proof that your spouse is cheating friends of BOTH you and your spouse won't want to take a side... if you have a love letter or a photo that often shocks them into making a commitment to support you
When exposing if you have no proof, your exposure is fairly hollow and can very often be dismissed our highly doubted..
Harley teaches that you can't meet the emotional needs of a spouse when they're still actively cheating -- they will be physiologically blocked to you. You must first separate the addict from the source of the addiction, and THEN, yes, you need to set about the hard work of repairing the marital relationship, including your own role in its demise, including not meeting their emotional needs.
Puppy
Harley's the man, thanks for the cover yet AGAIN pupper
man I am gonna be coverin yer back for years now! lol
And in OIN's case I believe he affair to be mostly dealt with. I wouldn't stop monitoring for at least a couple months... but I think a rebuilding approach would be in order soon once withdrawal has hit the door.
In such a case, bo-peep is certainly in order.
I feel like OMW and I nipped the A in the bud and the situation IS still being monitored BUT I do need to start rebuilding with my W. There have been positives and negatives in the past week or so. I don't get excited over the positives but I do admit I sometimes take the negatives to heart. There are times where I just want to speak my mind and tell her how I feel but I know that is PURSUIT and I have a gut feeling that my feelings would get rejected.
My W has once again took the ring off and I said nothing just as I did when she put it on.
I want to show affection and love for her so she does not seek it elsewhere but I also do not want to push her away.
Sometimes I catch myself doing things that might be making matter worse. I know I cannot expect her to meet my emotional needs at this stage and sometimes I forget this and set myself up for disappointment.
You dodged a very fatal bullet there my friend.. that alone you should be celebrating already.
But you seem to get the idea of not pressuring your WS and that she has to return at her own pace.. you can influence that pace by behaving in ways that would draw her closer, but it really must be her choice.
Telling her how you feel isn't just pursuit, she really is into how she feels right now.. she isn't concerned overmuch about you... she's overwhelmed with her own feelings.. they are rushing around at a high pace in her mind right now.. its very hard to cope under those circumstances.
Telling her how you feel will just add to that stress, it won't heal or repair any damage.
If the official advice from your source Harley in a case such as this, where the wife has come back is:
You must take this opportunity to prove to her that you can do something you haven't been doing for some time: Meet her most important emotional needs. First, you need to discover them. What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.
Call her, send her flowers, tell her how much you love her, how much you miss her. Don't smother her, but let her know in no uncertain terms that you value your relationship with her.
From What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2 by Steven W. Harley
How do you reconcile that with your advice:
Telling her how you feel will just add to that stress, it won't heal or repair any damage.
You are not repeating Harley's advice. You are saying something completely different.
I have followed the DR approach but then I tweaked it a little. Through-out this thread in everyone of my post I would try to provide an update of our current state and how each day/event played out (A aside).
This situation is very hard to wrap my head around. How can I influence or draw her back to me? How do I melt the ice around her heart?
How did you woo her to begin with, when you were dating? What things did you do together that you enjoyed?
When this began 8 weeks ago, when I first realized she was serious about leaving I started to overwhelm her with feelings and gifts. I started to say things I use to say but stopped long ago. I tried to get my W to go with me and do the things we use to. She rejected all my efforts. It seemed the more I tried the more often she would tell me she was leaving.
And is it any different now that OM has told her that he won't have their conversations anymore?
Not quite sure I understood your question.
Does your wife respond any differently to you now that she and the OM are not talking?
All I can say is we do communicate more often but I have not tried the things I did once this all began, since they stopped talking. I am afraid to. I can't even give my wife a compliment without getting a dirty look in return. At times she is a cold and bitter as any other day.
this morning just as she was leaving for work I wanted to give her a hug but I got no vibe from her that it was had been welcomed so I did not do it, I did not want to pressure her.
In my case, I was no where ready to respond in a positive way to my H after my EA. I did not want him to complememnt me or hug me, either. I had to go through the withdrawal and he didn't see a lot of positive change in my attitude for a while.
When this began 8 weeks ago, when I first realized she was serious about leaving I started to overwhelm her with feelings and gifts. I started to say things I use to say but stopped long ago. I tried to get my W to go with me and do the things we use to. She rejected all my efforts. It seemed the more I tried the more often she would tell me she was leaving.
I'm not sure how long she and OM haven't been in contact, but I think the disconnect here between the "do I tell her I love her, etc.," vs. "no; that is pursuit" opinions, is WITHDRAWAL.
You have to account for WITHDRAWAL.Hard withdrawal after an affair usually takes 2-4 weeks, depending on the depth of the emotional connection that was developed (most EAs take longer than shorter PAs). Complete withdrawal, IF the formerly-wayward spouse maintains no-contact, can take 6-24 months.
During hard withdrawal, your wife isn't going to be open to you emotionally. All you can do is pretty much the emotional equivalent of pulling back the drunk's hair while they drive the porcelain bus -- do Acts of Service for her, be kind, let her see you interacting positively with OTHERS, but don't pursue HER during this time, other than the occasional "I hate to see you in pain" or some such empathy statement.
After hard withdrawal ends (and this is why COMPLETE NO-CONTACT, with a good transparency plan in place to confirm it, is so important, because ANY contact is going to reset her withdrawal "clock" to 0:00), you can begin to ramp up the attempts to meet her emotional needs. Start with her primary one or two love languages -- what are hers, OIN?
The REAL sucky part, is that YOUR emotional needs aren't likely to be met for that same 6-24 month period.
Hope that all helps,
Puppy
What are the symptoms of withdrawal?
Did not see ur post b4 I made mine. I really don't notice any withdrawal, she pretty much remain the same. The only diff is the phone calls had stopped. They work together and see each other 3 days a week. According to a friend it is near impossible for them not to talk to each other given the nature if the work but he assured me when they do talk it is not like it use to be it is work related.
OMW who I just spoke to actually said the phone logs are clean and they are doing well. According to omw om calls her all the time from work where as I dont even get something as simple as a TM. OMW will continue to monitor the situation on her end.
As I said b4 my wife appears to be communicating with me more often and is not as nasty toward me as she once was but she still has her very bitter momments.
My advice is to keep your distance as you have been doing, but try to occasionally do some things with her, such as watch a movie or go shopping, or cook a meal, anything together, and try for the laughs. There is something special about who you laugh with. Not just ha-ha, but the real belly laughs. I think laughing together can melt the ice.
Did not see ur post b4 I made mine. I really don't notice any withdrawal, she pretty much remain the same. The only diff is the phone calls had stopped. They work together and see each other 3 days a week. According to a friend it is near impossible for them not to talk to each other given the nature if the work but he assured me when they do talk it is not like it use to be it is work related.
Ugh -- I had forgotten that they worked together closely.
If that's the case, then the timetable I wrote above won't apply. You're going to be in for a looong haul of "fits-and-starts" most likely. Not to say it can't be done, but every contact and interaction she has with him -- even negative ones -- are going to give her brain a new shot of endorphines (PEAs), and reset her "clock" back to damned near zero again.
The symptoms are pretty similar to clinical depression: quiet, weepy periods mixed with angry outbursts, shuts out others in the family, may just want to lie around on the couch or even in her bed, etc.
'taint pretty.
Puppy
I believe Harley actually said twelve weeks for withdrawal Pup did he not? I am at work so I don't have time to check.
And yes, that is assuming the affair IS over... if they talk at work still the affair will take even longer to pass through the withdrawal phase.
I made a point about withdrawal earlier too, but yours was much more resoundly stated pup...
I believe Harley actually said twelve weeks for withdrawal Pup did he not? I am at work so I don't have time to check.
Still looking for that -- I thought it was shorter, but I could be wrong. My wife's was about 2-3 weeks, and her moods were ALL OVER THE MAP. It was horrible.
I did find this interview with Dr. Harley, which I found very interesting (
emphasis mine):
Dr. HARLEY: Well, the first thing they have to do is get away from the attractive person, and that's the first step.
MEEUWSEN: Are most people willing to do that?
Dr. HARLEY: No, but that's the first step. I have to talk people into doing things that just are totally irrational to them. They don't understand that leaving this person that they're attracted to is the first step toward marital recovery. If they're having an affair, they can never see or talk to the lover again the rest of their lives. And that's the first step in recovery, is never seeing or talking to another lover. It may mean you have to quit your job. Many of the people I've counseled, many pastors I've counseled, have had to leave the state to get away from lovers that they have. And you have to totally separate. Again, think of it as an addiction. How do you get over being addicted to alcohol? You get away from the substance that you're addicted to. And the same thing is true in marriage.
The second thing is you have to go through withdrawal because once you leave the addictive situation, you will go through a period of deep depression, and one of the things that people have told me--the betrayed spouse says, one of the hardest parts of all of this is to get through the withdrawal, because here they have their husband or wife back but the husband or wife is miserable. And they blame it all on them, see? And then once you're through withdrawal, it ends. If they don't see or talk to the spouse, it ends. They're through withdrawal; then the recovery can actually begin. But there's a sense in which people try to recover with the lover still there. That never works, just like you can't get over being an alcoholic if you're drinking all the time.
I believe I remember something about 12 wks. In my experience it took me that long of hard withdrawal.
I agree about trying to keep things light and find funny movies to watch. Play with the kids or watch puppies.....whatever will bring laughter. Plan ahead and stay away from serious things as much as possible.
More:
Total Separation: The Right Way to End an Affair
Topic(s): Surviving Infidelity
348 Comments
You’d think that a wayward spouse would be so aware of his or her weakness and so aware of the pain inflicted that he or she would be thoughtful enough to make every effort to avoid further contact with the lover. Instead, the wayward spouse often argues that the relationship was “only sexual” or was “only emotional, but not sexual” or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.
Most betrayed spouses intuitively understand the danger and demand that all contact with a lover end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to the betrayed spouse.
In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children’s schooling, I recommend with all seriousness that there be a sudden and complete end to an affair. And I recommend extreme measures to ensure total separation for life from a former lover.
Several years ago, I owned and operated ten chemical dependency treatment clinics. At first, we used several different treatment strategies. For some, we tried to encourage moderation, and for others we tried to achieve total abstinence. It wasn’t long before all the counselors agreed that total abstinence was the only way to save drug or alcohol addicts from their self-destructive behavior.
Unless they completely abandoned the object of their addiction, the addiction usually returned. For these people, moderation was impossible. The conviction that their drug of choice was off-limits to them for life, helped end their cycle of addiction-treatment-addiction.
My strategy for ending an affair with total separation from the lover developed after my experience treating addicts. And, over the years, I’ve found my total-separation strategy to be very effective in ending affairs in a way that makes marital recovery possible. Without total separation, marital recovery is almost impossible.
An affair is a very powerful addiction. The craving to be with the lover can be so intense that objective reality doesn’t have much of a chance. The fact that a spouse and children may be permanently injured by this cruel indulgence doesn’t seem to matter. All that matters is spending more time with the lover. That makes it an addiction.
Even the one-night stand may be an addiction. It may not be an addiction to a particular lover, but it may still be an addiction—to one-night stands. In affairs that have low emotional attachment, the addiction is often to the act of having sex itself, rather than to a particular lover.
The addiction to one-night stands can also grow from a need to be continually assured of one’s attractiveness. People who indulge in such practices want to feel that they can have anyone they want, even that person over there sitting at the bar. These people who need constant reassurance of their attractiveness must learn some other way to gain that assurance—a way that does not destroy their marriage.
The analogy between chemical addiction and an affair is striking. In both cases, the first step toward recovery is admitting that the addiction is self-destructive and harmful to those whom the addict cares for most—his or her family.
After recognizing the need to overcome the addiction, the next step is to suffer through the symptoms of withdrawal. Addicts are often admitted to a hospital or treatment program during the first few weeks of withdrawal to ensure total separation from the addicting substance.
The way to overcome an addiction is tried and proven—abstain from the object of addiction. Alcoholics, for example, must completely avoid contact with any alcoholic beverage to gain control over their addictive behavior. They must avoid places where alcohol is likely to be found, such as bars and parties. They must even avoid friends who drink occasionally in their presence. They must surround themselves with an alcohol-free environment. In the same way, when a wayward spouse separates from the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken to avoid all contact with the lover—for life.
Of course, my advice is not easy to implement. Many people who have had an affair try but fail to make a drastic and decisive break with their lover.
The above article is adapted from the book, Surviving an Affair, by Dr. Willard F. Harley and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers, published by Fleming H. Revel.
The way to overcome an addiction is tried and proven—abstain from the object of addiction
Not to get off the subject, but I have said for years that is why food addictions are so hard b/c you have to eat in order to stay alive.......and I can't think of other addictions where that is the case. But using this as an example, the WAW working with the object of her EA is like a person on a diet who is constantly facing food. You think that one little taste wouldn't hurt.
I think it was Glass who compared being married to being on a nutritious diet, and she compared an affair to secretly binging on junk food.
So, yes it is hard, and yes harder than alcohol or drug abuse, gambling... hmmm
How about compulsive lying or shopping? Hoarding?
I am not trying to down play the A and I understand there is a withdrawal period and for me that period may extend farther due to the work situation but all that a side how does the rebuilding process begin?
OIN, you don't understand. For the WAW, the fact that she has stopped contacting OM "is" part of the rebuilding. I don't have the stages like Allen does, but I can tell you that for me I could not instantly change overnight into the W that my H wanted to see throwing myself 100% into working (as he defined work). As I told my H, I had to get to the place where I was willing "to be willing" to start. I had no energy to put into our R. I had no desire for my H. I was not a happy camper. Do you get that? I was doing what I knew was the right thing to do.......stay. Each day I focused on "staying" and not giving into the temptation to contact OM. If you can't see that as the WAW "working" then you are not going to be able to make it through her period of grieving b/c you will be too impatient and will be putting too much pressure on the W.
MWD's book pretty much roughly outlines the stages, but you need to read carefully, she doesn't lay them out like a clear cut process.
At the risk of an onslaught of rebuttals, I will flip through the book and try to paraphrase later today.
Boy, I don't know all. At the risk of being cynical these days I am starting to wonder--with 5 billion people (half the opposite sex) on the planet--whether trying to resurrect a relationship and love affair with someone that has the capacity to betray you, stab you in the back, hurt you beyond comprehension, and require YOU to woo her to restore this seems...well... to be a little backasswards.
Don't get me wrong--I'd LOVE for my wife not to have had an affair, the family not to have been ripped apart, my kids hurt, and their perfect life to be intact but it isn't. Its kinda like waking up one day and finding out that the rock solid perfect house you "thought" you had is infested by termites and is arguably beyond repair. Sometimes you have to make a replace versus rebuild decision which I guess is different in all cases.
I wish you the best of luck but you might give one of those other 2.5 billion females a shot out there to see if life is better with or without....I betcha there are some walking around that would have never done to you what she did. Some bells can't be unrung.
elscotto, there are a couple problems with this
1. We have no data to suggest that a random new mate is less likley to cheat than a current mate who has worked through the rebuilding process.
2. The only way to know if a relationship CAN be repaired is to explore that rebuilding process.
Granted, in some extreme cases of multiple affairs, violence, etc, I can certainly see why some may just cut their losses and opt not to explore this venue.
But in OIN's case, there was no PA that we know of, and he EA was brief and not that involved.. though OIN is still monioring the situation.
OIN's situation is quite mild compared to some other posters on this forum.
elscotto, there are a couple problems with this
1. We have no data to suggest that a random new mate is less likley to cheat than a current mate who has worked through the rebuilding process.
2. The only way to know if a relationship CAN be repaired is to explore that rebuilding process.
Granted, in some extreme cases of multiple affairs, violence, etc, I can certainly see why some may just cut their losses and opt not to explore this venue.
But in OIN's case, there was no PA that we know of, and he EA was brief and not that involved.. though OIN is still monioring the situation.
OIN's situation is quite mild compared to some other posters on this forum.
Agreed on amany points including the extent of the affair. Mine was never proved to be a PA but definitely was an EA and even though I have no proof logic suggests to me that she had the PA as well. I don't need to know or confirm the details--it would just harm me mentally and make it harder to move forward in life.
I should have confined my comments to another and better thrread for this given that OIN seems to have caught his wife before catastrophic damage occured to the relationship. I didn't so my thoughts are probably a little inapprpriate for this thread.
Carry on and good luck with the rebuilding if that ultimately turns out to be the right decision.
Just an update...My W did decide to go with me to my work gathering. My W did wear her ring. I said nothing about. At times she seemed miserable and I made the mistake of saying "what's wrong? you sound miserable" and she said "I can show you miserable." I said nothing further and changed the subject. From what I observed she enjoyed herself. I said somethings that at the expense of my co-workers and she had a good laugh. Some of my co-workers would say things like "You two got to come do this with us sometime" and started to invite us to future outings in which I had no reply because I did not my W to think I was looking forward to a future between us overlooking the situation.
I said to her after we left "I hope you had a good time" and she replied she did.
She was short with me at times and very distant.
I am suspecting she may have a mild case of depression. This may explain both her sleeping a lot and the EA.
If she has depression a crowded party is giong to leave her a bit tense... the important part is she went of her own volition without any pressure from you.. THAT is the goal.
Be VERY careful with the "what's wrong" that is blatant pursuit and temperature taking.
You need to learn to rely on what she's saying, again use the wild animal analogy, you can't ask a wild animal what's wrong, you need to OBSERVE and make an educated guess... each time you poke at her it just irritates her ..
Be VERY careful with the "what's wrong" that is blatant pursuit and temperature taking.
-- big DB no-no.
Puppy
I will also point out OIN, I have read elsewhere that roughly one bad thing weighs the same as seven good things
This means every time you pursue you put your good work seven steps back. For every seven good steps you take to get close again one act of pursuit will put you right back there again.. its a HUGE backbeddal... be VERY careful on that
And again for the sake of diffusing rabblerousing I will point out the number was rough and I don't have the actual post reference handy.. feel free to quibble over the ratio or concept as you chose to.. to my mind its the thought that counts here.
Understood I will not ask that any more. When I think about how it came about to where she agreed to go I don't think I pressured her.
Initially I said "co-workers are getting together on such date around this time at this place" and then said "your welcome to come with" she asked some questions and I told her I would get the answers. Later in the day I gave the answers to the questions and from there she had it planned to go
Depression may be the case....she just spent 131 dollars on colorful socks and said to me "they make me happy". inside I was upset at the cost but I gave her the impression "whatever makes you happy"
I think you wuold much have her escaping onto the socks than the OM... let the socks ride I say...
I don't think you pressured her into the event either.. that was realy good to see she went... each time she GOES you have a chance to show her a better you than you have been.
An issue in the past was a lack of public affection. I want to be able to show her this affection as we do more and more things together but I don't think my attempts would be welcomed. I don't want to pressure her and I don't want to set myself up for that rejection. Do I do it and see how she reacts? When I say it I mean, the hand holding, the closeness in public, the arm around her ect... I did at one point ask her if I made her feel uncomfortable and she replied no. I just don't want to make any unwanted contact at the same time I don't want to sit back and be the same guy I once was.
Don't ask her how she feels man.. temp taking again.. you need to OBSERVE how she feels.. its less pressure for HER, AND you will get a more reliable reading
Even if she tells you no she's ok, that' dont mean squat lol
She may just tell you she's ok to avoid telling YOU that she feels stressed out...
The best thermometers are your senses, NOT your verbal skills
As for pub affection, hold off onthat.
What you CAN do is SAY something nice about her IN PUBLIC...
If someone says something about your wife like "she looks nice" you can just reply "Yes, she's gorgeous" or something... do NOT make a SHOW of it to HER, that is pursuit... but you can do it casually while she's in earshot
You can also try to be more mature with EVERYONE. if your wife sees you be more mature with others, she will start to feel she may be making an impact on you... she doens't need to see you be a better man TO HER, to anyone is a good start, and it avoids you pressuring HER
This is something I have suggested some time ago for relationship building...
And yes.. warning to all rabblerousers Allen is offering advice on rebuilding a marriage POST AFFAIR
Suggestion :
Take up a volunteer job of some sort. Teach people to read, or whatever, Neighbourhood garbage run, whatever...
Your spouse can see maturity and betterness in YOU whithout you having ot PURSUE THEM at ALL
Dont' tell her you're donig it, just leave things laying around to indicate what you're doin...
If you find a flyer or add for volunteer help, leave the add on YOUR desk someplace.. trust me, she's likley snooping.. let her find it
And most important.. ENJOY the volunteer work, it is moivating and will make you feel better.
I did volunteer work at a local theatre for example.. bulding sets other stage crew work... I didn't get paid a dime, but it was a non-profit theatre, they needed the help, and it was a lot of fun
And I was getting snail mail from them each month with a brochure of what shows were on each month... my WS did see thsoe letters
No pressure but she saw improvement.. this was very effective when I did it
OIN,
I am happy to hear that she went to the event and had a good time. And that you got her to laugh. All very good. I think you are doing quite well, but you will need to use patience.
As for being affectionate in public, it does seem soon for you to be trying that. I do believe that talking to a spouse is the best way to find out what they want or don't want. And I also hear you saying that she gives you snappy retorts when you do try to talk to her. I think you will need to continue melting the ice with ideas for fun things you can do together, like the concert and the party, and just being friendly. Perhaps when she lets her guard down you could have a discussion with her about you wanting to give her the public affection if it pleases her, but only if she wants you to.
Is this considered being pressuring...
My W shows me something she wants to purchase. I leave and come back and she is ready to go and do something but is just sitting there. So I asked if she had plans for today she replied no. So then I ask if she wanted to take a ride to the place where the item is. I assumed that is why she was dressed to go. Her response was "if you want" with a shoulder shrug. I then said nothing in return. If I say "sure let's go" then I feel like it was pursuit but if I say "no" then I know she would get annoyed as she did.
BTW I know all of what I ask and examples I give may seem petty compared to what others on this board are going through but this is all new to me. I'm at serious risk of l
osing my wife and her word, attitude and actions are that which I never seen before.I receive no emotion, affection, intimacy or anything but negativity with a sprinkle of mix signals. I know it could be much much worse. I do appreciate aLl the help and advice.
Is this considered being pressuring...
My W shows me something she wants to purchase. I leave and come back and she is ready to go and do something but is just sitting there. So I asked if she had plans for today she replied no. So then I ask if she wanted to take a ride to the place where the item is. I assumed that is why she was dressed to go. Her response was "if you want" with a shoulder shrug. I then said nothing in return. If I say "sure let's go" then I feel like it was pursuit but if I say "no" then I know she would get annoyed as she did.
It's mild pursuit.
A more conservative route could be letting her know you are available if she wants to go and going to make yourself a tea or something.. stay nearby, don't get heavily involved a video game or something... but just sit back and wait for her to show the initiative.
Your pursuit was quite mild, and ultimately its up to HER what pursuit is, but I don't think you did any damage with your chosen route.
I can think of a milder offer, but I can also think of more aggresive pursuit too... its a VERY tough rope to walk.
Does she have any marriage-friendly friends that you are confident with?
What I am thinking is if you can have one of her friends help guide her through this time it may help...its very hard to go through a wayward phase alone.. this is why oftentimes affairs show up during that phase...
I am not concerned about an affair here, I am thinking she DOES need support, but from you directly it may be overmuch right now.
In regards to physical affection which you asked about earlier I have an idea.
Why not get her the info for a good salon/spa. I realize this is unconventional, but you could suggest she take a spa day to help her relax.
This is HER getting some affection and a good massage, it offers you nothing I know. But it may help HER see that you are thinking of HER comfort exclusively.
She indicates she likes affection, but likley doens't want it from you... a SAFE route is send her to a spa of some sort - obviously one where it would be FEAMLES doing the work, not men... yikes.
Just a thought, its really out there I know...
Tell her a therapist suggested it or something, so she doensn't think you are up to somthing and get defensive or distrustful.
And that SHOULD help her relax a lot.
The best is if you can find a marriage-friendly friend to go along with her - again a female. Offer to pay for them both to go.
No she does not have a marriage friendly-friend. To be honest outside of work she knows no one. I know many people say their situation is unique but her and I did everything together over the past ten yrs. there was rarely a time where either one of us went anywhere or did anything with out the other. And this held true up to 8 weeks ago where she finally come to the realization that I will always be an [censored]. She did everything for me and I showed her no appreciation and took all for granted.
I will see what I can work out
Yup, so now your task is to reverse that.
You show her everything you can do for her without forcing it on her and give her TIME to PROCESS your changes.
This is NOT an overnight deal, it takes according to MWD at least one month for every year you have been together. That is a VERY ROUGH estimate.
When this all began and I was going through changes I felt strongly we would make it through this. I would ask "what is holding us back" she would say "I just don't believe this is real, you have not said things like this to me in a very long time" then came her nasty streak. It was like anytime I would project happiness our talk about the future she would remind me she is leaving. She thought I was overlooking the severity of the situation. Slowly the hugs, kisses and ILY started to fade. That might had more to do with the OM I think. Now I am in an odd situation....where some say if I say or do that it would be pursuit and pressure her but knowing what my wife always wanted from me it seems right to say or do. But now I am very hesitant in what I do or say.
She does ask me to do things for her, we do things together...I don't know just all feels unreal
It is just that time in a marriage, it happens...
What she WANTED when she had HOPE, is NOT what she may want NOW...
When a spouses' hope fades, their willingness to accept love blocks out too.. it just reminds her of all the HURT and she doens't want you opening that door... and PURSUIT FORCES it open.
Ever tried to force a door open on someone? Do you honeslty think that's going to end well? It won't.
So you play milkman. YOu drop the bottles on the doorstep and wait to see what she picks up.. tha'ts all you can do.
You can show her you are WILLING to offer these things to her without OFFERING them to her. Offer them to friends, family, talk on the phone different... BE a different person around everyone else and she will pick that up and you will have done nothing tp push her.
Invite a friend over and cook your wife AND your friend dinner.. you arne't pressuring her, you are cooking dinner for a frend RIGHT?
Buy the household flowers. Don't even show them to her, bring them home, set them up somewhere nice on your desk and watch the show.
Start doing things she wants to see more from you. You need to be creative here but you CAN do that.
Physical affection she wants more of? I already said, get her a spa treatment - from a WOMAN - NO MEN
SHe wants lovign words of affection? Call a relative who is having some problems at home or whatever and talk them through it while she's in earshot... show her you can comfort her with your words... again, you dont have to pressure her at all... its all subtle
Get creative, it isnt' that hard once you start moving.
Do you have any bad habits? Video games? Smoking? Offensive music?
Get RID of that crap. There's bound to be something.
No bad habits currently. I use to be into the video games, dropped, other than that it was my harsh words and failure to show appreciation. Years of emotional and verbal abuse... I got the help I needed so all habits dropped.
Lose the video games, they don't model you as a mature adult she can depend on to love and protect her and future children... they make you look childish.
You show appreciation by DOING things for the home that she can benefit from. That's all you ahve to do.
Do the grocery shopping, do the laundry... these are all ways to show someone that you care.. Do all the things she did for you...
You jsut need to be creative, you CAN pursue here without pursuing her... pursue a happy home, and give her the space to see you do it.
Do you have friends or family who have kids? Invite them over - often...show your wife you are a family man, that should surprise her... again you can invite people over and shower them with charm and warmth, your wife will see all fo that and you arne't pursuing.
Good ideas and some I have been doing...video games are long gone since tje day this all began.
Is it a good sign when my W starts saying to me "remember when.." And brings up something positive from the past? This then prompts me to say "yes, and remember when" bringing up another past memory of a good time and something funny...
It is a good sign ya.. be VERY careful in feeding her more memories.. tread lightly there, she may at any time snap the door shut on you for pursuing her.
Good sign though yes, I would take it as one.
I honeslty don't think all of your wife's nastiness is you. I suspect there is some depression there. Until those chemicals are back in balance she's going to be difficult to deal with. I believe MWD has a section in DR for dealing wtih a spouse with depression. I will give that a read.
Don't be so eager for her to improve dude, she's taking her time and she needs that. Emotional processes take time. I am worried she's picking up off your eagerness. Do you have anything you do constructive at home to distract you from her at all?
She could be cycling. I wouldn't put too much faith in it unless she starts doing it on a regular basis. There are too many times where the WAS will sound like they are coming out of the fog, then WHAM back in they go.
My W and other WASs on here have done the same. There were some instances where the WAS even said they were ready to R, then they changed their mind and went for the D.
Take things with a grain of salt. What you want to look for is consistent positives. It could be a good start. Look out for more.
It is a good sign ya.. be VERY careful in feeding her more memories.. tread lightly there, she may at any time snap the door shut on you for pursuing her.
Good sign though yes, I would take it as one.
I honeslty don't think all of your wife's nastiness is you. I suspect there is some depression there. Until those chemicals are back in balance she's going to be difficult to deal with. I believe MWD has a section in DR for dealing wtih a spouse with depression. I will give that a read.
Don't be so eager for her to improve dude, she's taking her time and she needs that. Emotional processes take time. I am worried she's picking up off your eagerness. Do you have anything you do constructive at home to distract you from her at all?
As I mentioned in a previous post I keep setting myself up for failure. I got overly excited, we'll say, when she opened up a little and I continue to expect more. I need to take a step back stay focused and patient.
I agree with the depression all she does is sleep when she is home. But when I talk to my friends who are her co-workers she is a completely different person, she is talkative, "giddy", and in a good mood. Soon as she walks in the door she becomes a bitter person.
I plan on start hitting the gym again to release my stress.
She has attached her depression to the marriage and the marriage to the home
MANY depressives have an upside as well... the probelm is they go up and down and up and down.. its a crazy painful ride.
I am NOT an expert, read up on it... I won't presume to say more about that.
If you get something, just enjoy it, don't charge in for more no... you got it, that's how they get you...
yes, hit a gym, do some sort of crafts around the house or whatever.
You may want to work out at home so you can keep an eye on her.
SOmetimes your wife wants to know you ARE there, but she just doesn't want you in her FACE
My W and I are schedule to go a concert 03/23 as mentioned in a previous post it will be a 3-4hr drive. My wife does plan on going to work the morning of. What I did and have yet told her is the morning of I scheduled for her to go for a spa treatment that I think she could really benefit from. She has work leading up to and including the day we are going...I wanted to do this before we go so I decided the day of.
Now the question is how do I tell her and how in the world do I convince her to not go to work or leave early? I thought about just asking her to take off for such reason or writing a little note...I think I got myself in a little jam but I am hoping somehow it can work out.
Did they give you a gift certificate for the spa? I would just put it in an envelope with a little note that says, "I thought you would enjoy this!" and put it on her pillow or somewhere else where she is sure to see it. Then wait to see what she says. If she says she can't do it because of work, you can say that you had hoped she could take the day off. If she insists she can't do it, then tell her not to worry, you will call the spa and ask them to change the date. Usually they give you a time period in which you can use it.
No gift certificate but the appt can be cancelled with 24hr notice. So can do a note and pack it in with her lunch or something.
As I mentioned in a previous post I keep setting myself up for failure. I got overly excited, we'll say, when she opened up a little and I continue to expect more. I need to take a step back stay focused and patient.
That could be a big part of her acting mean to you. If I gave the slightest positive word or deed, my H would think all was solved and the M would be fine. Therefore, I made sure that I showed him how I was not fine. I promise you that if you will not give her the time and space she needs, you'll pressure her too much too quickly.
Allow her to have a few good moments and then expect to see her slip back into moodiness. You will burn out before she revives if you don't.
I would just put it in an envelope with a little note that says, "I thought you would enjoy this!" and put it on her pillow or somewhere else where she is sure to see it. Then wait to see what she says. If she says she can't do it because of work, you can say that you had hoped she could take the day off.
If my H had left something like that on my pillow, I would have thought he was expecting something in return.....like perhaps ML. If he had said that he hoped I take the day off.....I would have be furious! That is pursuing and pressure.
Even when I didn't like my H, I was always happy to accept gifts! i can put aside hard feelings for a little while if someone wants to do something nice for me. Why not? Everything is not always about sex.
It is not necessarily a gift... She is very stressed out and I feel this will help alleviate some of that stress. Over valentines day weekend when her mood was worse toward me, we went away to a bed and breakfast and she received and she felt really good after she told me. So I thought much of the same now. And back then she was extremely nasty toward me. The odd thing is even though she still told me it was over that she was still leaving while we were driving home. My friend overheard her at work talking about what a great thing I did for her and how good it was.
The odd thing is even though she still told me it was over that she was still leaving while we were driving home. My friend overheard her at work talking about what a great thing I did for her and how good it was.
OIN your wife has two voices in her head right now :
1. Stay and give OIN another chance to be a better man.
2. Get out while you can with your sanity in tact.
You are going to hear both voices come out of her, and you are going to watch both voices drive her actions.
The LONG HAUL is to drive away voice #2.. but right NOW she's hearing BOTH, you NEED to understand that.
That second voice is DOUBT creeping in... when commitment is string early in a marriage doubt isn't there, but reality hits hard in marriage eventually and that voice will start SCREAMING if you don't take precautions to DIFFUSE it.
So... don't find it suprising to hear or find out that both voices are coming from her..its perfectly NORMAL right now.
The STRESS she feels is listening to BOTH voices right now, its driving her crazy.
And yes, most of the time she shares the second voice with YOU... becuase being around you brings that voice out in her.
Loving actions without chasing her is what's going to diffuse that voice to a whisper... right now its beating her over the head every day.
OK?
This is NORMAL, its not odd or confusing at all once you understand she has two instincts she's fighting at the moment.
This is also likley the reason for her sleeping so much, those voices are exhausting her.
You just keep getting her spa treatments and massage therapy and the like as much as you can.
If she knows its YOU driving it, this is how YOU show physical affection to her without an ounce of pursuit.
Just make sure these are WOMEN doing this work or the affect is ruined and arguably counterproductve... I am sure you can understand why...
Got it. I am trying to think of the best way to tell her about it. I am guilty of thinking that when she was in the slightest good mood toward me that it could only get better from that point on so I would step it up on my part and get upset if she did not respond in a more positive way. I need to back pedal and take it back to the basics that got me this far to begin with.
Also since my wife sleeps most the time when we are home together I started to make out to do lists and check items off as I go along and I purposely leave the list laying around so she might come cross it. I also make calls to therapist (still looking) and leave the brochures on the counter ect... Is this ok? To leave hints around the house without actually telling her...
Also since my wife sleeps most the time when we are home together I started to make out to do lists and check items off as I go along and I purposely leave the list laying around so she might come cross it. I also make calls to therapist (still looking) and leave the brochures on the counter ect... Is this ok? To leave hints around the house without actually telling her...
That's the way to do it. I wouldnt' flood the place with Brochures beucase in a way it may also remind her that your marriage has problems. She does need to know you're trying, but I can also see how her mind might find a way to beat her up over that.
And yes, this process is not all forward going.. its three steps forward, two, back then three forward, tehn two back again... if you do the arithmetic you will see that you will get there, but its a bumpy ride and you need to be careful.
I have some homework for you, its just two hours of work.
You're gonna watch a movie...
This is something you do on your own time, when yoru wife is not at home.
Bruce AlmightyIt was on TV tonight and it just hit me this would be perfect for you.
You may have already seen it. Watch it again.
You are Bruce, his gf Grace is your wife. You'll get it when you see it.
This isnt' somethign to share with your wife, don't even let her know you're watching it... its your homework. You'll know why i reccomended it when you see it.
OK. I have seen it but hardly remember since it has been so long but I will track it down and watch it. The ironic this is (off topic) the city in the movie is the city in which I work in.
Good, you should get even more out of it...
Re you hoping a sign of progress would mean it would be downhill from here ...
MWD has a line in Divorce Remedy that goes something like :
When divorcebusting patience isn't just a virtue, its an absolute necessity.
Bear in mind, I don't think it is exactly as I quoted, but the idea is there.. I don't have the book handy so bear with me. If anyone can correct my clumsy reference feel free.
Patience is your best friend my man... refer to him often.
This morning I send my wife an email (only way I was able to do it) and said along the lines of "I know you have been stressed out lately and I think you deserve to relax so I scheduled you for a massage and if you choose to go it will be at location at time. If you decide not to go just let me know so I can call and cancel the appt."
That's excellent, you left it all in her hands, you are getting the hang of this OIN... good call
I'm not saying everything is about sex, I only said what I would have thought in my stitch. Leaving "gifts" on the pillow in the bedroom
is a very sexual & romantic suggestion. I never had any relative or friends to leave a gift on my pillow!
A WAW is not usually in the mood for that sort of pressure. Your ideal of accepting gifts may be different from others. I can't see accepting gifts from a person I can't stand to be around......and that's usually the case with a WAW with her H.
Even when I didn't like my H, I was always happy to accept gifts! i can put aside hard feelings for a little while if someone wants to do something nice for me
That just seems WRONG any way you look at it.....to me. Very selfish/self centered. Princess behavior!
I don't want to get into an argument about any of this, but I have read a lot of your posts, Lotus, and most of the advise you give would be good for marriage-relationship improvements(before the W is ready to walk out),but when the W is ready for a D and wants to walk out the door, too much of what you say is very pursuing and too late to work in in most WAW cases.
I don't want to get into an argument about any of this, but I have read a lot of your posts, Lotus, and most of the advise you give would be good for marriage-relationship improvements(before the W is ready to walk out),but when the W is ready for a D and wants to walk out the door, too much of what you say is very pursuing and too late to work in in most WAW cases.
The difference with Lotus' comparison's Sandi is that Lotus was the LBS, giving an LBS advice to do for a LBS that worked for an LBS I don't think is gonig to be all that relevant.
I think most of us LBS' would have enjoyed gifts from a WAS! But in this case the context is not the same... right?
My W came home from work this afternoon and said " I got your email and I don't think it is a good idea, it will aggravate my shoulder" my W is scheduled to see a neurosurgery doctor due to an issue with her back and shoulder so I said "understandable, no problem I will call and cancel"
I decided to do a little shopping today and told her "you are welcome to join" she declined, I still went.
This might sound a little petty but my wife did allow me to snap a picture of her, our dog and I which is something she would had refused to do a few weeks back.
I asked this before but does anyone know what is up with the frequent showers and baths?
Showers and baths can be very psychologically theraputic, it relieves stress.
Do NOT take her picture... that's pursit... just leave her alone man...
Too bad about the spa treatment, its a shame ai erally liked that idea...well, time to roll up the sleeves.
her doctor may even suggest something on his own for her.
Doctors very often suggest massage therapy for back problems, my wife is 40 and she goes regularly.
And you seem really hungry for something positive from her.
A HUGE part of divorce busting is about YOU GIVING HER love... you seem to keep wanting to try and TAKE signs of love BACK and keep looking and hoping for them.
Just give without ANY ulterior motive man.. just give and do NOT look for a positive, just give, and that's it.
...
Based on the history you described for the two of you, you can likley understand now why she is where she is now... she was donig this and getting next to nothing from you for how long?
How long was she trying and not getting enough back?
I here what your saying about the picture taking but she wanted to... She was laughing and having a good time
OK, just don't make a thing out of it, that's cool then.
The classiest thing I ever seen a guy to is ASK if she doesn't mind, but if she made it clear to you she wanted you to take teh photo then you are likely ok.
You are doin well man... just stay calm.. give give give... try your best not to look for anything from her, even an eyeblink... just get in the habit of giving and not looking for nothing back.
It takes time and I am worried she' sensing your eagerness for a positive rsponse... women can sense these things...
It is tough but I do understand. The person she is today and has been for he past 9 weeks is not the same person she had been the past 10 years. This is a whole new side of her I have not ever seen.
I am use to the way she use to react to situations or things I could say or do to get through to her and I find myself doing them.
On another note I bought two new bottles of cologne (different scents) and when my wife seen them she said "you bought two??" The thing is I have not wore cologne in some time...
That's fine, dont' worry so much about all of her reactions.. you really need to sit back and let her breathe a bit...
There to my mind really is no one response that you are going to get from her that's going to mean much... its the OVER ALL LONG TERM results that we are trying to BUILD here dude.
Monitoring every eye blink is jsut going to give you an ulcer.
In her HEAD, she's left... but you CAN influence her to reconsider, which is what you are doing, but don't expect ANY NOTICABLE IMPROVEMENT for a while man.. at least a month or two... if its earlier, great, but don't count on that at ALL OK?
Focus on what YOU are doing to improve things, not on how SHE is reacting.
I would put 90% of my time into working on things on YOUR end and the other 10% into taking NON-INVASIVE temperature readings from her...
Non invasive means
No asking her how she's doing
No asking her how she's feeling
No asking her if she wants to go out to eat
No asking her if she wants anything to eat or drink
No asking her pretty much ANYTHING
Non invasive means
Watching what she does mostly, and making a SILENT note to yourself about it...
This is not an exact science by any means so you need to try not getting hung up on every thing she does... I honestly can read a positive AND a negative from MOST of her behaviuors right now... you take the behaviuors, HOPE for the positive, and keep working...
I pretty have stopped the "can I get you this?" Mannerisms. If she asks I do it. There are times where I do feed off her in a sense. For example she will show or tell me something she wants for the home (or whatever) and I would ask "do you want to do that?" Then she would reply most the time "its up to you" and it puts me in a tough spot. I will heed your advice and back off more...
I want to add I seen in another thread where a person DB'n with a similiar situation and it was suggested by someone else to be overly nice ect since it was oppisite in the past I will link you when I can...
Some posters reccomend doing that, but I don't.
DR warns about pursuit and to my mind that's pursuit.
The problem is what your wife wanted THEN isn't what may help now.
I can give you an example from my own home easily. My wife complained that I never got her flowers... so the same day I went out and bought some... do you think that went over well?
Not at all... I got "I don't want them NOW... NOW you bring me these? I wanted these YEARS ago"
You see, your wife is in a different state of mind and what was black is now white etc
I am not saying it wont' work, but you really have to tread lightly here.
My advice is usually to do what you can to change the person you are without bothering her directly.
You can buy flowers for the house, you can invite friends for dinner and cook for them, you can buy people gifts, you can call family up and have a warm conversation asking how they are and offering to help etc.
All of these things don't bother your WIFE at ALL, but at the same time she will get to observe safely from a distance that you are a different man than you haev been before.
I really don't recommnd addressing the wife directly to communicate that you have changed for the better.
Its your call, but if you get the sense what you are doing is working, I would keep that up...
And based on a lot of her responses, I am getting the distinct feeling unless she shows you or tells you otherwise, she mostly just wants to be left alone.
A response from your previous post about how long this has gone on...she tells me for 10 yrs she has felt like this. I know it was not that long and I assure you I treated her great but the good does not out weigh the bad according to her and as of now "our marriage is based on all wrong things" and ILYBNILWY
OK, ten years you've been together roughly then.
MWD says in DR that for every year you have been together you will have to DB ROUGHLY for ONE MONTH.
So, For ten months ROUGHLY you are going to get distance and cynicism from her most of the time. You will get the odd crumb, but you need to be patient.
Ten years is a long time to wrestle with you to get the improvements you have been making now.
I KNOW I KNOW. Your wife made mistakes too. Most couples thrash about for 4 to 10 years until a crisis happens and then they either divorce or they find a way to make things better.
It took both of you ten years to get where you are now... Undoing all that damage is going to take a lot of time and a lot of work. Running away from it is NOT going to make life any easier for you. Running away is how you two got where you are... instead of working on your challenges for the last ten years you two have been hiding from each other ... most couples do that.
And yes, I am sure there have been good times, but your wife's state of mind is not focussed on these.
MWD again points out that when you are feeling sad, the bad parts of your marriage get LOUDER and EASIER to remember and the warmer parts are just a whisper and are nearly forgotten.
Her MOOD towoards you needs to change before she will remember better times and start to feel better. You need to get her to warm up to you.. and you can only do that by making yourself a warmer person to be around.
If shes had to wrestle for ten years to get you being the guy you are trying to be now, you can't ask for that overnight... She's got a lot of doubts.
My advice is usually to do what you can to change the person you are without bothering her directly.
You can buy flowers for the house, you can invite friends for dinner and cook for them, you can buy people gifts, you can call family up and have a warm conversation asking how they are and offering to help etc.
All of these things don't bother your WIFE at ALL, but at the same time she will get to observe safely from a distance that you are a different man than you haev been before.
GREAT advice.
Puppy
I am workin twoards another "five whistles" post.. lol
I had the opportunity to see my W b4 she lkeft for work and surprisingly she WAS wearing her ring. I cannot remember the last time she wore her ring to work.
A friend of mine said to me and I cannot remember the exact word but it made sense
Its like kindling a fire, you start with small stuff twigs, branches ect to get the fire going but when the fire starts going you toss bigger logs on and smother the flames and eventually the fire dies.
My W just returned home from work early. She said she was not feeling well.
Shortly after she gets home my friend calls me to say someone at work was talking to her and my wife expressed how upset she was because she just found out that I have "eyes" watching her and reporting back to me everything she does...not sure who said this to her.
My wife has not brought this to my attention and I am not bringing it up to her because then she will know someone called and told me...not sure what 2 do
You don't need to do anything, OIN. If and when she brings it up, tell her the truth, that you never asked anyone to "report back to you" (IS that true?), but a few people had contacted you, yes, because "they were concerned about you, and concerned about me."
I'm sorry, but this is probably why she wore her ring to work.
Puppy
OK I wilL wait for her to bring it up.
About the ring...she made the decision to wear it B4 unknow person had said this to her. It was said this Happened today
The problem is what your wife wanted THEN isn't what may help now.
This is what is so crazy about the WAS and why it's very hard (I think) for the LBS. Everything has changed by the time she is ready to walk. Everything! That is why most women say, "too little, too late". So many men can't seem to get that she is "done" with all of it. He has to treat her like she is "not" his W or any romantic interest. He needs to treat her like a business associate until things begin to heal.
OIN, stop worrying about the ring, its a good sign that she's trying, but she's experiencing a lot of mood shifts. Her emotions are influx, its NORMAL for her to wear the ring one day and not wear it the next...
Find the FT, that's the key thing here right now I think.
Here is why I bring up the ring.
In the DR book I was told to set small obtainable goals and they should be geared in the sense of "what would my W be doing that would give me sign things are getting better" (not exact). If she wore her ring more often or at all that would be a sign, to me, that things are improving. And here is why I say that...
Before I discovered the DR book and this forum I was in my pressure and pursuit phase. during the first few weeks my wife still wore her ring and then one day she stopped. After a few days of her not wearing her ring I asked her "Why don't you wear your ring anymore" and she replied "Because I am not happy with our situation right now and until I am I can't wear the ring" so I remembered this when it came time to goal setting. That for her to wear the ring would suggest that she is more comfortable with our situation which was ultimately a sign of things might be getting better.
I am just taking the small positives and posting the progress in our R/M. I am treating the forums as a journal of some sort and in this case it is public and enables feed back which I am grateful for.
What does FT stand for?
Family Therapist
After speaking with my friend again a shirt time ago he said another co-worker of theirs (female) went up to talk to her this morning and my W said she want not in a good mood because someone had just told her that her husband had eyes watching and is reporting things back to him (me). My W then proceeded to say "I am done with my marriage" shortly after that. My wife left work early and came home and had said nothing to me. I ledt her alone and did a great amount of work around the home at one point she awoke from her sleep and asked what I was doing, I simply replied "cleaning" and then she asked "why are you giving me an attitude?"(I had no attitude) very little has been said since then and she is keeping her distance.
chock it up to a bad day is all... you handled it well
And puppy's advice if she challenges you as spot on
Just tell her that these people are trying to help keep our marriage stable of their own choice and you appreciate them looking in on us.
Maybe invite some of them for dinner to reduce tension a little, I dunno...
Today is a loss indeed. My wife does not know that I know she had said this. She had not come forth herself about what 'somebody' had told her. I don't know who told her. My only guess would be that OMW said to OM that she had someone watching out for them and she may had said "so does he." Either OM said this to her or OM said something to someone else and it got back to her.
If I bring it up then she will feel even more so that I'm "watching her"
Later on as I was getting ready for work she walked up the stairs and walked past me then turned and said "what?" I said "nothing" then she said "you been acting weird all day" I replied "you came home from work early, sick, and I am just letting you relax".... I. Don't know
Just wait it all out ... keep up the work.. your replies are as good as I can think of, and you are doing it on the spur, so I say bravo.
Again if she brings up the watching just tell her "these people care about our marriage and want to help, I don't consider that a bad thing really..."
Or something like that... she takes it as an offene where she really shoudlnt.
After giving the situation more thought and the event that took place today I think she did bring it up in her own way. She was telling our dog to watch me and said "keep watching him, then come back and tell me everything he does." I said in regards to that comment "no need I would tell you everything I do myself"
I did ask her if she meant anything by what she said (probably should had just let it go). She said " why are you doind something where you need to be watched?"
I said "absolutely not, I am honest and open about everything I do and if there is something you want to know just simply ask and I will give you the truth"
You could follow up with offering her your phone and wallet and such and telling her to have a look if she wants.
Just add "I don't want to do anything to hurt you... so am more than happy to share these if it helps you believe me" or something like that
Offering something physical for her to look at helps trust more than a say so.. I think you have learned that one by now lol
When I think about it I have heard her say far worse things to me in the past 9 weeks and after things still seemed to have approved. Although she did say today to someone else after she heard I . "Watching" she has said directly to me in the past "I wish I could end this marriage sooner" , "there is nothing you can say or do, it's over" "don't you understand there is no future" , "I am just co-existing until I can leave" , after all that she has yet to leave and is not as nasty to me....so I will keep at it and hopefully more positive starts to happen
OIN,
In my opinion, you're spending WAY too much time worrying about what your wife thinks about what people in the office think about what you think your wife thinks.
Time to GAL, and DETACH.
Puppy
OIN,
In my opinion, you're spending WAY too much time worrying about what your wife thinks about what people in the office think about what you think your wife thinks.
Time to GAL, and DETACH.
Puppy
Absolutely.
OIN, if your wife in the past has found you too controlling then you DEFINITELY need to follow this advice.
I am notcing that this pattern hasn't changed... and it must.
It's good to take temperature every day, but I just get the feeling you are watching her like a hawk.. that can't be good for her recovery...
The best way you can help her man is to give her some space, which means you need to give your mind some space too...
When you start focusing on something else more often she will likley start to feel a bit less trapped.
My W wore her ring to work again today. I kept my distance when she came home and was actually in the process of getting ready to do a little shopping. She did ask where I was going and for what I told her and said "your welcome to join" she declined.
Just before I left she went through my phone again and went through all my archived messages. I sat there and let her do it. I walked out the door and then came back in because I forgot something. She was looking at my email. At first I was a little upset and asked to see the laptop, she got possessive and said it is my laptop, no. I felt myself slowly getting annoyed but held back. She said " you were so anxious to leave so why don't you just go" so I left.
When I returned home I said "I may have over reacted when you were looking through my email. I receive and have self-helP tips and ebooks in my email and I don't know if I was embarrassed or what but I am not ashamed and should not had responded like that" she said "ok" and that was that. She then went to sleep.
Tomorrow we are going to that concert which is a 4hr drive away. We are staying overnight and returning the following day. Tips? Suggestions? On how to make this an enjoyable trip to help melt some ice...
I just wanted to add that a family member had just invited us to go to a child b-day party. Normally her and I would not go and if we did never one without the other. I said to my wife " we were invited to go, what do you think?" She did not want to go.
If I decide to go without her would she think that I am moving on because we are doing more and more without each other does that make it easier for her to move on?
It depends no what you say when yo tell her you are going.
"I am going - ya snooze ya lose" - kinda looks like you are moving on
"I am going, I understand if you aren't up for a lot of noise and such... it can get a bit intense... just rest here, i dont' expect to be long, but I do want to support their family" - sounds like you are just being considerate and potentially scores you a few points
Well I ended up not going. The environment in which the party was being held was something I did not want to subject myself to(I know it sounds selfish).
I walked into the room which she was sleeping and she said "thought you were going?" I said "I decided not to" and she said "WHY?!?" I explained as aforementioned and she understood....at least that is the impression I got.
How about tomorrow? how do I make the most of our trip so we both enjoy and hopefully connect with her.
I am having trouble finding that happy medium. Where I am not pressuring or pursuing at the same time not giving her the impression that I am moving on. Any links to good threads with some advice on this matter? Thanks
Is she over me?
My W and I took that drive and it was OK considering our situation and the fact she hates long car rides. We had brief conversations but for the most part just listened to music.
Some things I noticed over the past couple weeks and even more so on this trip. My wife is "shy" around me. God forbid if I get a glimpse of her other than her being fully cloth. Up till a 2 weeks ago this was not an issue as much as it is today.
Also my W gives me dirty looks and rolls her eyes sometimes when I compliment her. This is a 180 of my mine. Sometimes it feels like a sin it we accidentally bump or touch each other.
I keep my composer and project myself as being is a good mood and be as patient as possible.
Are the aforementioned issues common and can they be combated with DB techniques?
We plan on doing one more activity together today and then heading back home (another 3hr drive)
OIN, complimenting your wife is BLATANT pursuit.
If you want her to feel like you are a warmer person which is what it sounds like your objective is, then compliment something around the house or someone ELSE.
You don't have to rave about HER for her to realise you are warming up.
OR, you insert the compliment in a sentence indirectly.
Your wife is going to be "shy" around you until this is resolved, I don't know why you are even surprised at that one.
You need to stop the pursuit, every time you do that you set yourself back and drive her away.
Rather than you being FRUSTRATED that she's shy why not try RESPECTING that like an adult and turning AROUND until she's clothed and such? Isn't that how an adult handles that?
During her affair my wife was like that as well, I just got up, smiled warmly, and said "I will give you some privacy so you can change..."
I suspect you aren't sending the right energy in the room when she's "shy" right now. You will need to fix that.
If your wife rolls her eyes when you compliment her STOP COMPLIMENTING her.
MWD makes it VERY clear in the book that if a 180 is NOT getting the response you expected then STOP THE 180 immediatley.
Rather than worrying about it being a SIN you should try to respect her need for space.
If you are frustrated by this she's going to pick up on that.
A lot of people here have their partners actually having SEX with other people during all of this... YOU don't... you should be able to dance through this comparatively.
1. If your wife rolls her eyes, she wants you to STOP it.
2. If your wife acts "shy" then leave the room or turn around and give her some privacy.
This is basic stuff. You need to find a way to show your wife you are improving WITHOUT CHASING HER. You havn'et found that safety zone yet.
OIN, complimenting your wife is BLATANT pursuit.
If you want her to feel like you are a warmer person which is what it sounds like your objective is, then compliment something around the house or someone ELSE.
You don't have to rave about HER for her to realise you are warming up.
OR, you insert the compliment in a sentence indirectly.
I understand what you are saying and the point you are making. The issue had always been that I would compliment other things and not her as much. I created a low self-esteem for my W. My W thinks I don't think highly of her or find her attractive. When this all began in the first couple weeks my W told me she wants "unconditional love" to know that I love her no matter how good or bad she is, no matter how attractive/unattractive she may look from one day to the next. I always felt that way but never expressed it... If I don't compliment her someone else will and she will be drawn to that in her vulnerable state.
If she leaves for work and I fail to say tell her how nice she looks and she goes to work and some OM does. He is now doing something that I am not. My W will think "Thanks, but my H does not think so."
Rather than you being FRUSTRATED that she's shy why not try RESPECTING that like an adult and turning AROUND until she's clothed and such? Isn't that how an adult handles that?
During her affair my wife was like that as well, I just got up, smiled warmly, and said "I will give you some privacy so you can change..."
I suspect you aren't sending the right energy in the room when she's "shy" right now. You will need to fix that.
The point I was trying to make is, when this all began and up till 2 weeks ago my W was not "shy." It seems all of a sudden she started to react in this way. Ever since I first discovered this board and received feedback I have stepped way back giving her plenty of space. Its not like I am jumping in the shower with her or anything like that. I was just trying to get a better understanding of this sudden change
If your wife rolls her eyes when you compliment her STOP COMPLIMENTING her.
MWD makes it VERY clear in the book that if a 180 is NOT getting the response you expected then STOP THE 180 immediatley.
Understood but I also learned by reading many posts on this forum that every sitch is different and I found a some success stories that just because she does not respond to something does not mean it has no affect. She rolls her eyes because she does not believe me. She is only going to believe if I am consistent and sincere (so I think, then again I am not expert at this DB stuff)
I realize I could be in a much worse situation than I am and I don't take any of this for granted. I hope no on else who read this thread who is having far greater problems in their M takes any offense to any of my posts. All I can say as minute as my R problems are compared to others I still feel the hurt the emptiness and loss as they do.
Your marriage OIN, your dice to roll.
all we can do is make suggestions based on what we have experienced.
You CAN compliment your wife TO OTHER PEOPLE.
You can talk on the phone to someone and say "Ya, my wife is really good at that sort of thing, but I am pretty clumsy.." etc
This in her earshot gets HER a compliment, but YOU are not pursuing and you wont' get any eye rolls.
If she is LOOKING for a compliment, like standing there WAITING to HEAR one then yes offer one, but I would'nt reccomend offering something that isnt' sougth after explicitly...
Your call
And her "shyness" can be a new symptom, you would handle it just he same... you need to understand OIN a lot of this is HER behaviuoral makeup based on HER history with you... we can't explain to you teh details that well... only that it sa common behaviour and that it should be respected until she indicates differently.
I am going to just step back and trust your jdugement on the complimenting thing OIN, I would'nt reccomend it, but I don't live in yoru home... its your call there.
OIN- the truth is all of our problems suck b/c they are our problems, you are fortunate that yours are not as bad as others, but I know that doesn't make them any less of a problem for you...I feel for you and have been there- I was more crushed in your sitch than I am now and my W has vanished from my life and in the bed of OM.
I have finally accepted that I HAVE NO M, and likely NO 2nd CHANCE...
That being said- you are mind reading when you say W is rolling her eyes b/c you never complimented her and now you do...if she's still grieving OM and in full blown WAW mode- it is pursuing...
All sitches are diff, and sometimes a 180 is shot down and other times it is recieved...it's a effing mind game at best...if you're going to do it, don't be affected if her response is neg...
I do like Allens advice about paying W a compliment to a 3rd party...
Dont worry about the shyness either- no big deal- she's not your real W right now...just be consistant, strong, and a rock- hopefully she'll come around and when she does your changes are in place and you'll be more than ready
Allen,
After taking a step back and thinking about my approach when it comes to complimenting I can see where it would be considered PURSUIT. In the times where I have complimented her it was rather spontaneous. Nothing she brought on but rather something I thought needed to be said. I also like the 3rd party idea and will start implementing that.
Thanks for all your advice so far, I truly appreciate it. That is why I post my daily interactions with my W so I can get feedback of what I can improve on or what I should keep doing. I would say I am doing a better job of not getting frustrated with her rejections and becoming even more patient.
We had a good time at the concert last night. She said "we have to go again." We watched a movie together when we returned home. After my W went to the kitchen to get herself something to eat and asked if I would like some as well and I said "yes, that would be great, thank you" I walk out there and there was 'some' for me and none for her. She said it was the last of 'it' and I should take it she would grab something else. I insist that she have 'it' and I would be the one to find something else but she insist herself. Rather than go back and forth I accepted and thanked her. When I was done I told her how good it was.
I hope these are all signs of things improving. I am not getting ahead of myself, I know it will take a lot more work and much more time and I am NOT celebrating too much over the little steps we have made.
Just before she went to bed tonight she could not find something, I heard her getting upset. She asked if I knew where it was I told her no and she lashed out at me and has now gone to bed upset but I remained calm and hopefully she realizes I was only trying to help.
We have been here before in the past 9 weeks where things are relatively good between us and then she will say "I am still leaving, I am only trying to co-exist." I am very weary.
OIN - Let me say - I know nothing but I can offer insight on the shy thing. My W had the same reaction suddenly to seeing me change clothes. I was sleeping in the spare room but still using my shower in the master.
I at first said 'what's the big deal' and that got a very heated reaction so the next day I moved all my stuff to the other bathroom. Immediately changed her attitude, then she says 'you don't have to shower there'. I still did.
OK, OIN, thank you first for reconsidering the complimenting. Jasper made a good point about the complimenting that I hadn't even considered.
You are handling things well. What you really need to do is work yourself so hard you are in the habit of doing teh best thing in each instance. Before people's instincts are initially selfish. They say snd do what does best for them...
Usually after starting a db busting campaign they realize how quickly they thought of themselves and they have to work very hard to get OUT of that habit. The more you struggle with this, the more you will realize how much damage you were doing over the last ten years. The harder it is for you NOW, shows you how hard its been for her.
A lot of your work right now is just investment. This is like a mutual fund, not a hot stock. You put the $$ and wait... and wait... and wait...
You are unlikley to see overnight improvement, or even improvement over a few weeks. Even if you Do get a positive reaction from your wife one day, you will very likley get a negative one a few days later. You just keep acting lovingly to your wife, despite what SHE is doing. You should monitor regularly, but bear in mind its not going to mean much.
When you observe her doing something good on a CONSISTENT basis, like "she has wore her ring every day for the last MONTH" THEN you know you are on to something...
But if you monitor each eyeblink hoping for steady improvement you won't get it.. and it will drive YOU crazy in the process.
Mutual funds go up and down, up and down, but over the LONG HAUL they get to a much better place.
Bear in mind I am not a financial analyst or anythign, so maybe mutual fund might not be the best analogy... if someone wants to help me out here feel free.
BWP has a point here too. YOu can't sweat the shyness... there are WAY too many variables here to draw any reliable inference as to the meaning of it other than to say
Ya, she's got wayward syndrome...
And leave it at that. It may mean something more specific, but there's no way for us to know
The best thing to do I think is just to act past it. Ignore it essentially. You just keep doing your thing.
It's an interesting theory here...
If a person were deaf and blind, would they make a better partner?
They would certainly be better able to ride out a wayward spouse that's for sure...
when db'ing I often keep in my an image of a horse in a race... Horses have "blinders" on their harness tokeep from being distracted by the other horses to their sides... all they see is the path ahead of them. Divorce Busting is very similar to that, you can't peek at your spouse too often or you get distracted.
If you compare your wife NOW to how she was when she was having her EA, it think you would say "ya, she's better now"
So, that means you keep doing what you're doing. You can't compare day m to day n, but you can compare day a to day n and hope to see some mild improvement.
Assuming you ARE at day n, but I think you are likley only around day f or so... not near the halfway point yet. I would expect you to have to db for more than ten months... particularly with OM at her workplace and the people your wife hangs out with.
Just a bit off the subject here, you have indicated you are a police officer ya? Do you wear a uniform at home?
Women tend to swoon over that sort of thing. I am thinking there's something we may be able to do there if you have a uniform... need more info first.
I follow you. This morning I may have gone too far in a TM I sent her. Only after I sent it did I realize it was heavy pursuit. She did not respond to it. She has not even txt me since actually. Everyday (even during all this) she would routinely txt me when she was on her lunch break. It may have been a force of habit but she still did it. Today she did not. Now I know it is just a TM but it was validation for me and the fact she works with OM does not help the thought process.
Also my wife did not wear the ring to work today. Her wearing the ring is also validation for me. As I mentioned before she told me herself she would not wear it unless she fekt better abiut our situation. She wore it one day and someone at her work said something to get her upset and she said "I am done with my marriage" however she wore if the following day too. Then she did not wear it. That brings us up to tuesday where she wear it during our trip and wednesday on the way back. Today she did not put it on and as far as I was concerned things were better than they had been in weeks...now I am baffled.
Yes I am a police officer. My W was and is not impressed by the uniform. She is a different kind of woman. Everyday for the past 3 yrs she would lay out my uniform for me and help me off to work every evening (up till the sitch happened). Now I do this on my own. Most of the time when I am walking out the door for work she is already in bed. Other times when she is not I try to look "proper" as I leave and give a good impression but she does not go for it.
Let me be honest here. I work from 8p-6a my W works 4a-1230p so there is an overlap. My W parks in a lot and then takes a shuttle bus to her work place. I know this is pursuit but...I have been picking her up at the lot with my patrol vehicle on nights we both work and dropping her off at the work place. I do this because during that short 5 min ride we have great conversations, so it has become a comfort zone for us. The last two nights I worked I did drive her and those are the two nights she work the ring. Tuesday I was not working and she left home without the ring. Today I am not working and she left without the ring.
Besides the fact she had in her head I would be picking her up those two days so she wore the ring , I also think about what behaviors did I project that day that may have prompted her to do so...all I can think of was I wore cologne to work those days as well (had not in over a year up till then) and she watched me walk out the door and more than likely smelled me.
Knowing my wife and the way she was not how she is now...I. Think she would had wanted me to say something about her wearing the ring but I did not. She use to want that attention from me b4 this all happened. I played it cool and said nothing about the ring. I am not sure if she is now thinking "before he made a big deal of me wearing the ring now it does not maybe he does not want it anymore" and left it off then again these are my thoughts not hers. I don't know what makes her put it on and take it off and if it even means anything when she does put it on.
I follow you. This morning I may have gone too far in a TM I sent her. Only after I sent it did I realize it was heavy pursuit. She did not respond to it. She has not even txt me since actually. Everyday (even during all this) she would routinely txt me when she was on her lunch break. It may have been a force of habit but she still did it. Today she did not. Now I know it is just a TM but it was validation for me and the fact she works with OM does not help the thought process.
Also my wife did not wear the ring to work today. Her wearing the ring is also validation for me. As I mentioned before she told me herself she would not wear it unless she fekt better abiut our situation. She wore it one day and someone at her work said something to get her upset and she said "I am done with my marriage" however she wore if the following day too. Then she did not wear it. That brings us up to tuesday where she wear it during our trip and wednesday on the way back. Today she did not put it on and as far as I was concerned things were better than they had been in weeks...now I am baffled.
Yes I am a police officer. My W was and is not impressed by the uniform. She is a different kind of woman. Everyday for the past 3 yrs she would lay out my uniform for me and help me off to work every evening (up till the sitch happened). Now I do this on my own. Most of the time when I am walking out the door for work she is already in bed. Other times when she is not I try to look "proper" as I leave and give a good impression but she does not go for it.
Let me be honest here. I work from 8p-6a my W works 4a-1230p so there is an overlap. My W parks in a lot and then takes a shuttle bus to her work place. I know this is pursuit but...I have been picking her up at the lot with my patrol vehicle on nights we both work and dropping her off at the work place. I do this because during that short 5 min ride we have great conversations, so it has become a comfort zone for us. The last two nights I worked I did drive her and those are the two nights she work the ring. Tuesday I was not working and she left home without the ring. Today I am not working and she left without the ring.
Besides the fact she had in her head I would be picking her up those two days so she wore the ring , I also think about what behaviors did I project that day that may have prompted her to do so...all I can think of was I wore cologne to work those days as well (had not in over a year up till then) and she watched me walk out the door and more than likely smelled me.
Knowing my wife and the way she was not how she is now...I. Think she would had wanted me to say something about her wearing the ring but I did not. She use to want that attention from me b4 this all happened. I played it cool and said nothing about the ring. I am not sure if she is now thinking "before he made a big deal of me wearing the ring now it does not maybe he does not want it anymore" and left it off then again these are my thoughts not hers. I don't know what makes her put it on and take it off and if it even means anything when she does put it on.
Hint, hint.
Puppy
Wow never realized how often I used those words.
THe thing is, in examining this it shows how much you are trying to analyze and control this sitaution. This is normal, but its also not very constructive.
Yes, her wearing the ring may ahve been your cologne but I will tell you a secret :
Not everything your wife does is because or about you
Sometimes she may just wear the ring beucase she can't find anything else that matches her outfit.. or she's in a hurry and forgot it today.. who knows.
It's unhealthy for you and your marriage for you to fixate too much on her behaviour. Take a quick temp each day, but you may need to let it go just a bit...
The analysis we can get here is very limited.
Just keep teh blinders on and keep a goin.
If you don' think the uniform helps then ya we may have to come up with something else creative.
Keep trying to come up with some creative ways to reassure her without pursuing her directly... there are some otu there, we just need to find them.
Also, regarding you and her offering each other the last of whatever food it was...
NEXT time why don't you get a KNIFE and SPLIT it down the MIDDLE?
But those exchanges are good to see too... its showing generosity for each OTHER rather than YOURSELVES...
bravo
Because it was an ice cream cone lol...
put it in a bowl and split it up... you can always share ice cream
OR... this is sneaky and she may find it as pursuit
put it in ONE bowl and give each of you two spoons
You just need to be creative man...
I had to do a little shopping today. Before I told my W I was going to do some shopping and left.
While I was out.. .
My friend called and I asked him how the situation at work is going. He told me the following.
He walked into briefing this morning and seen OM walking away from the seating area where my W was sitting. According to my friend she usually sits next to him in briefing and sometimes he would stand up.
My friend then told me he worked directly with OM and at one point my wife walked past and stood there for 10 min or so just watching them two work and engaged in small talk.
Later on OM approached my friend and said "I don't know what do to, we talked for like 10 min" and said my wife told him the following "I finally found a friend, someone I can talk to and now I am not allowed to talk to you" then from what OM told my friend he told her "We really can't talk like we did, I cant go through what I did with my wife again, it cant happen"
I decided to call OMW but now answer, so I called OM and according him it is not like it was before that yes there is random chit chat but no personal talk like there was in the past.
I questioned OM about interactions between he and my W and he would not admit to the conversation them two had today. I once again told him how determined I was to make my marriage work and he needed to step back. He claims he understood. I then encouraged him to work on his family and that I am happy things are going well for them. He said "I think she upset because she lost a friend" and proceeded to say "It won't be me but I cant speak for the next person who might see her upset and talk to her."
I am not sure if OM is afraid of my reaction and that is why he stepped around telling exactly what happened. He knows my friend could tell me everything anyway so why not say it. He may also fear that I would tell his wife an as a result would create huge problems for their home life.
After this call I called a therapist and have an appointment scheduled for 3/31.
Shortly after my W text me and asked "How's shopping?" which was coincidental. She then told me "Let me know when your on your way home" I finished shopping TM her I was on my way back and she helped put the groceries away.
It could be much worse. This is very mild compared to what others on this forum are dealing with but that attachment still exist and I am not sure if this is all part of the withdrawal process.
Also my wife took my phone again and went through my text and call history. I did tell her I called the therapist and have an appointment setup for next week Wednesday.
Sounds pretty good...I like what Puppy did above...highlighting the pronouns...keep the blinders on like Allen said- great advice, wish I heard that back in the day.
BTW- I would like to speak w/ you candidly about your profession...are you on the alt? (FB)
Please let me know-
Good job not making a stink about the ring- my W pulled hers out once, and I made a comment...it hasnt been on her finger since...thank goodness the reason is "it doesnt fit anymore" instead of oh I'm bangin OM now and dont feel a bit of guilt...lol
Your wife would take from what I remember minimum of twelve WEEKS to get past him... and THAT is assuming she has NO reminders of him floating around... no gifts, no letters, no photos...
She sees him how many days a week? Five?
It will take her at least SIX months AND the following will help that along :
1. OM NOT saying ANYTHING to her, IGNORING her COMPLETELY
2. OM showing commitment to his wife... bugying flowers while at work and telling everyone they are for his wife, OM announcing he is reknewing his vows in Hawaii this summer, him bringing his wife and kids in to work to meet everyone, etc
3. Your wife NOT pursuing him actively.. her TRYING to ignore him.
As it is,its gonna take her a LONG time, assuming He sends HER consistent and CLEAR mesages that he's a married man.
He SHOULD have done this in the first place instead of putting the moves on her... NOW he's got her chasing him... the idiot
And the fact that he's saying things like "we can't talk like that anymore" pretty much is him admittin they were having an emotional affair.. he isn't saying affair, but he's admitting it when he says "that way"...
Ideally what you WANT is OM PROTECTING your marriage like your OTHER friend is doing... long term goal at best...
But your wife chasing him around is good practice for him.. he NEEDS to learn to say NO to people who threaten his marriage, and he has'nt had enough practice at that...
The OM has to do the OPPOSITE of what YOU are doing really.. intersting situation ... but that's about it.. he has to act indifferent to her and show her NO signs he's worth chasing and YOU have to do the opposite
Show her you DO love her and show her signs you ARE worth chasin...
its an interesting parallel
When he said "that way" he meant often and on the phone. From what I gather from everyone keeping an eye out since day one. He was being his self (obnoxious. She sought him out to seek advice about spousal abuse since he had mentioned his mother was abused in so many ways by his father and so she started to ask him questions. Questions became conversation. All while this was going on everybody told me he was just acting normal and my W started to change and pursue him.
And from what I gather now the phone convos stopped but she still attempts to communicate with him at work. I can't tell her who she can or cannot talk to but I told her there are boundaries. I also told him to back off.
I will see how the next day or two play out. I plan on calling OmW about this matter. My only concern is she would give up and create more of a havoc.
I read something about gifts ect. So far it has been confirmed nothing more than talk.
I'm concerned that any interaction with OMW about this is unwarranted since you've already spoken to OM. In fact, IMO, unless the flames kick up again; I'd keep talking to OM at this point since he will take your calls.
You want to be careful with too many phone calls to either one of them. My gut says just keep using the info from your friend at her job to give you the temp of what is occurring there. If the need arises; then make contact.
This needs to be a balanced surveillance. You want her to come back and not see you as controlling. If you're controlling her every move but constantly calling OM and OMW about stuff you hear from your friend; she's going to get frustrated.
Plus, you want to be careful about calling someone else's wife. When I busted my W's A in '08 by calling OMW; once she went off on him, I left her alone. I didn't want to put myself in the position where are common source of misery becomes the ignition for our own EA or PA.
I'm not saying that you never call her again; but I would reserve that call for when you get intel that the flames have arisen again. If they're trying to work on the M; they don't need constant reminders from you about the source of their problems. Your friend at W's work should be able to give you what you need for monitoring your boundary.
Allen may disagree with me..I'm not sure. I just have to believe that there may be a point of diminishing returns of frequent phone calls to their house; especially if they feel their M is moving forward from this.
The thing is MC, "flames" are hard to identify just from indirect observation...
From the beginning of this OIN's wife WAS falling for the guy and all OIN's friens at work said they were "just talking"
I don't konw how much infidelity script you have ever heard MC but "just talking" is at the top of the list.
MOST affairs start out by two people "just talking"
You dont' want to wait until someone finds them mounting each other in the conference room before you act.
If you find two married people talking to each other alot in private, you get IN there.. in my opinion that's a probelm waiting to happen... you can watch them all you want, but I say if there is chatter, you get in there...
NOW...
I DO agree MC that OM's wife should be called rarely.. OIN if OM will take your calls, talk to him... OMW should NOT mind about that.. you CAN just go visit them... buy a small gift and drop by their house, talk to BOTH of them... see where i am going?
My advice is to talk to those two as COUPLE, don't cut etiher of them otu of the loop... focus on OM though... he's the risk not OMW... and if you keep bypassing OM he's NOT gonig to support you.. if you talk to OM the OM will respect you mroe and be more likley to HELP you out.
I agree MC, that OMW should be included only if OM isnt' towing the line...
And ya, your wife will get pissed if you call OMW too much.. and right now you don't want her angry... if everyone is behaving themselves except your wife, then don't bother the other couple...
I didn't quite gather from your post exactly what OM is saying or doing... I worked all day so my brain didn't read it at 100%
Talk to OM first, if he isnt' cooperating then you go to his wife... TRY to talk to them as a couple if you can... Go visit thier place, bring a small gift, make it a social call... it wil give you some points with your wife if you do it that way rather than making direct private calls to OMW
Let me tell you a story MC, about something that happened in my workplace
A General Manager used to work for (female and divorced) used to take days off like everyone else.. but the intersting thing about this was she took teh SAME vacation days as one of her subordinate managers (male and married)
I hadn't worekd there that long at the time, maybe three months, but I saw this and I suspected something... I saw them talking... and that's it.
They WERE havign an affair. After about six months my co-worker let me into the inner circle..
After my first year there the subordinate maranger was moved to a new project.. at the end of the project his contract was not reknewed.. the female manager was moved to a new project after that which lasted six months.. again HER contract was not reknewed at the end of that project
No one ever saw them mounting each other... just them talking. But the execs got wind of it and let them go...
If you see something inappropriate happeng you get on it... don't wait for it to turn into an inferno... put the fire out asap I say
With OIN here his wife was office gossip already.. at THAT point ya gotta serious problem.
I understand you dont' want to make things bad at home but affairs are REALLY addictive... and HIGHLY destructive.. so I say throw all the guns you have at it
Allen..I certainly do NOT disagree with any point that you've made.
Ultimately, if OIN already has eyes and ears in her workplace; my point is to use them and if he has some uncertainty call the OM. As long as OM will still take his calls; I was only suggesting that route.
My fear is that too many calls to the OMW would raise suspicions in her H and OIN's own W. I just wouldn't want OIN to make so many phone calls that, eventually the OM and his W quit taking his calls. At that point, he loses his advantage.
Anyway, great points Allen.
Unfortunately, I do have experience with A scripts; my W had multiple.
I am a multi-LBS myself.. two here!
I don't get hte impression OMW has any issues iwth the calls.. I got the impression from OIN that OMW WELCOMED his interference becasue he is saving HER marriage when he does that...
That's the impression I got, was that the wife wants the calls and hte intel, but the OM was a bit miffed at it.
But ya, OIN, we need to make sure we don't over do it there.. its a delicate rope to walk for sure...
IF you are too lax, then an affair starts, if you push to hard, your wife walks out on you... tough calls all around
Allen - Pardon the interruption... What's a multi-LBS?
The OM had no issue speaking with me when I called him. His admissions are he should had never started to talk to her about personal issues and let it go on as long. He would like for me to believe that he is avoiding her as much as he can. He tells me he is sick of walking on eggshells at work and this whole situation has caused more problems then it was ever worth. He expressed to me several times how much his son means to him and the thought of losing his family is not something he can bare.
My W on the other hand does not see what she was/is doing would be considered an A. She think she was "talking to someone who listens" and made a friend. My wife has no friends to be honest as mentioned in a previous post we had done everything together for a very long time besides our work places we had no social life (more so her). I have a group of friends who I hung around with, I play sports as well. She had work and then her home life. So when her only friend (me) hurt her she desperately seek someone else to talk to and vent and she ended up finding it in him since he could relate to her situation.
OIN, sounds like your W needs to find a good core group of female (marriage friendly) friends.
Seeing how your friend works for the OM and has the ability to monitor his interaction with your wife......I wouldn't do anything that could eventually put heat on your friend! Use his eyes and ears. Your wife is the pursuer of this friendship!
OK OIN, lt me ask this then... Cops are usually pretty good at spotting when someone is BS'ing them
Do you think OM is lying to you at all or do you think he's being completely sincere? I am just wondering if he's hiding anything from you at all...
I just don't know if he's trustworthy here... and your wife clearly isn't
OK OIN, lt me ask this then... Cops are usually pretty good at spotting when someone is BS'ing them
Do you think OM is lying to you at all or do you think he's being completely sincere? I am just wondering if he's hiding anything from you at all...
I just don't know if he's trustworthy here... and your wife clearly isn't
Of course he isn't trustworthy. He's a PREDATOR.
This is like trying to reason with the fox, to ask him NOT to raid the henhouse.
Puppy
Pup, I am thinking he may have toned things down... OIN put the fear of God into him some time ago... from the reports he's getting from the workplace OM isn't chasing OIN's wife anymore, she just wont' leave OM alone at work... she keeps following him around.
I am thinking he may have learned his lesson when he was humiliated at work... its a shame you have to publically humiliate people to get them to act like adults...
I guess I want to believe he's grown up a bit.. I just wanted OIN's opinion on it... since he has direct experience with the dude
public humiliation works just as well on kids too!!
Allen - Pardon the interruption... What's a multi-LBS?
Means you've been burned more than once my freind
You will see LBS here quite often, usually referring to the poster
It means Left Behind Spouse...
You have a wayward, or wandering spouse and the Abandoned Spouse or the one Left Behind
Multi obviously just means its happened to you a few times... often by the same person (serial affair commiters)
Unexpectedly this morning after my W left for work OMW called me (3am). She heard from OM that we had spoke and she wanted to hear from me what it was all about. I told her what my friend had told me and that I had to call him.
She said that OM expressed to her that he wants this to all end that he is approaching his breaking point and he does not want to lose his family. As I was talking to OMW, OM called her so she had to hang up. She called back a little while later which I did not expect and said that OM is on his way home. She had told him she had a bad dream about the situation and as a result he left work and went home.
OMW did tell me that OM had said "It's not me he should be worried about it is the other people she talks to now." I questioned my friend about this and he said he really does not see anything else going on, where as with OM it was obvious.
From what I have gathered through-out this whole thing, my W was/is the pursuer.
=======>
On another note, my W returns home from work today and said "I need to call the insurance co." she has a crack in her windshield and needs to get it fix. Her insurance is at our old address and she has yet to change it so she said "I still have to change the address with them...but whats the point I'll be changing it again soon anyway" implying she will be moving out so she would have to change her address again.
I kept my blinders up as best I could. I just walked away and sat down. It was tough because that was the first time in two weeks she had mentioned leaving.
OIN...What are YOU doing for YOU right now?
I'm worried that if she does move out, you will not handle it well. You are completely consumed with how SHE's feeling and acting; what about you? What are YOU feeling? How will you live a life without her in the house? It's quite possible she's putting things in place in preparation for leaving. You cannot stop her; but you can change you. You are certainly doing better in your interactions with your wife; but are you REALLY prepared to be by yourself? You have to get yourself in a healthy position to be able to weather a separation should that happen.
You are right. I don't think I will handle it well. How do I start to prepare myself for the possibility for her departure without giving the impression that I too want it to be over?? I will say I have done better recently reacting to her when she says she is leaving. I use to beg, then I would get upset and now I just ignore it even though it does get to me.
OIN, has your wife DONE ANYTHING to indicate she would be moving out? I know you HEAR it a lot, but I am thinknig this is just wayward script talking...
Is tehre any visible indication she's leaving?
You are right. I don't think I will handle it well. How do I start to prepare myself for the possibility for her departure without giving the impression that I too want it to be over?? I will say I have done better recently reacting to her when she says she is leaving. I use to beg, then I would get upset and now I just ignore it even though it does get to me.
The best (only?) way I've seen it done around here is to adopt SmileyPerson's "Consider yourself already dead" (Band of Brothers) outlook. Maybe Coach's slightly-more-optimistic "Stockdale Paradox" but nothing more optimistic or hopeful than that.
In my experience, when you START from a basis of "he/she's cheating on me; this marriage is, for all intents and purposes, already dead," and then try to
resuscitate it, you'll have more success.
Band of Brothers -- "Already Dead" Puppy
OIN, you need to act as if she is STAYING..she may not leave; Allen is right, until she makes a move physically; she's still in your house.
I don't want to see you outwardly prepare for her departure, SPECIFICALLY... I want you to get to a better place..emotionally, physically, mentally..that means working on YOU and don't keep worrying if she's back in the R...or if she's leaving...
Cause if she does (and you can't control that), I'm worried about you and your health. Read DR again; one of the tools is GAL, finding what is YOU and returning to it. You sound a lot like I was in my M; my M was my identity. I had lost myself in it. When my W left...I was in shock...I wasn't prepared to be alone...and even if we don't like it; a lot of waywards do walk...mine did.
You are in a good position, however. It appears you have thwarted a possible PA and certainly an EA in its early stages. You are in an enviable position in that you have gotten to DB in the early stages of this marital crisis. Many don't come to DB until it's too late. However, you need to really get healthy and your W WILL notice. That will help attract her back to you. All of the advice you have gotten will help.
Again, I'm concerned about your own mental state of mind. She can sense any negativity; trust me and that's NOT attractive.
Work on yourself OIN and keep a check on the fire at her work. and I stress WORK ON YOURSELF as well!!!
Allen,
Here is the deal. My W father is in the process of getting my W grandmothers home switched over to his name. He is currently doing work on the house. The plan is for him to move in and live downstairs and rent out the upper apartment. My W has told me since the start she was going to move out once that apartment is ready but because it is not ready yet she would co-exist with me until then.
Besides words the only other indication that she would be moving out is she told her father that she would be moving in with him. I heard he say it to him and I read a text message she sent her father.
Up till today it had been two weeks since she mentioned leaving and even then it was not in those words it was implied.
She is not nasty when she says it anymore. It sounds more sincere.
She is not packing if that is what you mean. On the other hand she is not doing much to maintain the household besides contribute to paying the bills. She leaves a mess, I clean it up because she won't.
You know...let me be honest with you. I said something to her that I should not had is was heavy pursuit which may have prompt her to say these things today. I said to her "you know we need to go get a new bedroom set, want to go look?" She said "I don't feel like looking" I asked what she meant by that she said "well its really what you want" meaning 'I won't be here so it don't matter' then I realized what I just had done and went and sat down then she said that about the insurance
Also I had gone upstairs and was up there for sometime and shortly after my last post my W comes up stairs and starts to clean....odd after I just made that post. I heard her in the other room and she must had come cross a card she card for me shortly after our marriage in october. The card plays music and the whole song did play which means she did read the card. Her words in the card were how happy she is to be married to me and that she will always be mine... Could this hurt? It was by chance she came cross it.
Yup, you put yourself seven paces back again I am afraid.
How does her FATHER stand on her moving out and living there? YOu said she sent stuff and talks about it... what does HE say?
Is he hurrying or is he taking his sweet time hoping you two will sort things out?
This is an interesting one...
I spoke with him on this matter. He said it is up to her and me to work it out. He said to take it one day at a time. He said to the both of us to be honest and communicate with each other. At the time I told her father I was getting mixed signals from her. He said....
"It is tough when one person wants it and the other does not"
"Both of you have to do what makes you happy"
"Look at me and her mom we are both happier in our lives right now after divorcing"
But her parents situation is way different than ours but he made that comparison. He wants what is best for his daughter and if she is telling him how stressed she is ect then he is going to want her out the situation.
I made a post not too long ago about a situation that occurred when we visited her father and how it was one of the worst days ever in our relationship.
I will say that a few weeks back everytime she brought up her father fixing the house up she would take the opportunity to tell me she was leaving. But last couple weeks she would bring up the house but not say anything about leaving. I am confused....
I will say that a few weeks back everytime she brought up her father fixing the house up she would take the opportunity to tell me she was leaving. But last couple weeks she would bring up the house but not say anything about leaving. I am confused....
This is why you really need to start working on yourself. DETACH...DETACH...DETACH..
or you're going to be a basket case if she leaves...
Quit worrying about what she's going to do; because she's going to do whatever she wants and you cannot control her decision. You CAN however change you and that may sway her decision.
Are you willing to work?
Things just a little more difficult. My W called me a short while ago that her mother called her. Her mother said they found the remains of my W cousin who was missing for a couple months.
I tried to console her but she rejected my attempt to I backed off. She seemed to get more upset with me.
I think this makes her more vulnerable and if she does not turn to me for support she will to someone else. Also it makes her more sympathetic and more people at work may be prone to give her attention...
Just get her family near her... don't leave her alone to wander about ...
I will do my best....
Any ideas,suggestions or advice in regards to my past 2 posts or so? Thanks.
It doesn't sound like her dad is in a hurry to have her move out.
Just keep up the work you're doin.. you can't rush the process or you will just keep pushing it BACK... each act of pursuit puts you seven steps back to the ONE you got forward the day before...
Or a better way to put it
AVOIDING PURSUIT is SEVEN TIMES more IMPORTANT than a LOVING ACT
GOT that?
I am gonna write it again
AVOIDING PURSUIT is SEVEN TIMES more IMPORTANT than a LOVING ACT
You need to control yourself... control over yourself, is how you influence HER.
I know her father is moving along as quick as possible. If not for her then for himself.
I admit I am discouraged after today. Many thoughts had gone through my head including just giving up. I am trying to regain focus and get back on the right DB track. I was at one point optimistic that my sitch could be busted but now a feel in a rut. I am trying to do for myself, I did hit the gym before work. It is though....we still live together it should make DB easier but I seem to have a hard time.
So long as W is in the house, you stand a shot-
Everyone is right, you REALLY need to PMA and detach.
My W first said she was moving out in Sept...she moved out Jan and officially everything in March.
Don't push anything, dont speak of the future, dont bring up memories, etc.
You are freaking out inside- I can tell by your posts...you have to think of this as someone elses sitch- cut out the emotion...it's like how they wont let a doctor do surgery on their own family member...unfortunately you have to do this surgery, but you need to be SOOO detached.
I like PUPs advice a page back or so. THE M IS DEAD...I know it sucks to read that, I hated reading it for the first time...but thats the mentality you have to have.
You have time and opportunity.
When W was here last week she said-"I really just wish you took better care of yourself through this."
I did not- I was a wreck- quit going to the gym (thought it was a 180 b/c she always complained that I went too much.)
You have to be in the best mental shape of your life- this is a traumatic event, one of the top 3 worst things a person can go through.
It's harder for us LBS b/c we want it...the WAS not so much, but from my understanding, their pain comes later...
You are doing well, just watch the backslides...btw sorry to hear about FIL- it stinks knowing that W can draw support and comfort for D from her divorced parents...I know the feeling
W's supports are a molestation survivor/atheist, widowed and D'd mom, self serving OM1, and now D'd and loving OM2...WTF
Wanna swap sitches? lol
Is this pursuit?
1
W said to me this morning " I am going to my family's house this saturday for an easter dinner" I say in reply after. Brief moment of silence "is that implying I am not invited" she said "no you can go, I was just saying. My father just txt me the info and hoped that I would show up"
I know she would not have invited me. She would just had assumed I did not want to go if I did not express any interest in going because in the past being the jerk I was I would not go to some of her family dinners just because... I don't want to be "that jerk" anymore
Not sure if it's "pursuit" as much as it is kinda "whiny/pouty," which is just as bad.
You would have been best to leave it lie. If asked later why you didn't attend, you could have said -- truthfully: "I wasn't invited."
Puppy
sounds good...so long as the "is that implying I am not invited" was said w/ a neutral tone...
good 180
OIN, yes it is pursuit.
But, you COULD have said something like
"OK, great, I would be happy to keep you company, let me know if you want me to come along or not"
And you leave it with her to invite you.
compare that guy with :
"is that implying I am not invited?"
This second one sounds like someone trying to pick a fight.
OIN, yes it is pursuit.
But, you COULD have said something like
"OK, great, I would be happy to keep you company, let me know if you want me to come along or not"
And you leave it with her to invite you.
This is perfect. ^
Got it. I addressed her in a mild calm tone but i could have used better wording.
Maybe if you thought out different conversations that "could" take place and what wording you would use, it would help you be better prepared.
I agree...the possibilities and potential for mistakes if not prepared are seemingly endless
I asked this before but here it goes again.... 99 percent. Of the time she would say "it's up to you" her I try to leave the decision up to her. Do I then make the decision rather than trying to put it back on you.
Need some tips...
How do I detach when we still live together and the issues that brought us to this point is due to me being a detached spouse? For example if I go out and do something without her then that is reflective of how I use to be, going out with friends and while she sat at home.
I am trying to balance being the man/husband she always wanted and needed at the same time detach so I don't set myself up for devastation when/if she leaves.
I started the GAL process by getting myself back in the gym and I do my best to maintain a positive attitude.
I am slowly learning what does not work.
What tips do you all have on how to detach but no so much that she thinks I am also pursuing the separation?
You do things for the home you two share togther.
Do things that she would like, but that don't involve you having to talk TO her.
If there's something that needs fixed, you fix it. If something needs replaced, you replace it.
It's ok to make a plan to go out with friends and INVITE her ALONG.. THAT isn't pursuit... and it shows her you aren't detaching from her too
You can't just become the man she wants you to be.. you need to become the person YOU want to be too or all of this is just pursuit and you losing yourself in your marriage.
The object is to become someone you BOTH can respect.
If there is something you did before that hurt her, like detachment, do something different. It does NOT have to be the OPPOSITE, just different.
HOW did you detach before? Just walked out and didn't tell her where you were going or when you would be back.
This doenst' mean you have to INVITE her ALONG as your primary source of company every time you walk out the door.
You just need to make sure she kNOWs where you are and when you will come back. THAT is an improvement in you, something she will have more respect for, and there's no pursuit there at all.
I dunno, it seems like oftentimes you WANT to pursue her so BADLY right now that you are rationalizing yoruself into thinking its going to help.... we've been where you are... It doesn't help.
Bear with me here.. if SHE is sending you enough messages that she wants you to talk to her, to take her someplace, etc, then by all means DO IT and then exit.
MWD makes this point in her book. If you DO something with your spouse that's great, but YOU be the FIRST to leave.
Don't hover or hang all over the exchange waiting for her to fall into your arms... ain't gonna happen.
The working out.. is this NEW to you or is this something you were doing before?
When you DO get a life, its more effective in dbing if its something NEW to you that would get her attention that you aren't the same person anymore.
She needs to know you are not that guy anymore, so be sure you are doing something different when you get a life.
I usually reccomend volunteer work of some sort.
OK I can think of many things around the home that need to get done, I will start. Its just I do not process the skill or know how to do some of these things but that could be a attribute to GAL by learning and doing rather than rely on someone else.
I did work out before this all happened and I have been in a slump since. I lost 10lbs over the past 9 weeks and I feel like I am deteriorating and as a result may be unattractive to her. And if (god forbid) she does leave I want to be in a better place physically.
When I would go hang out in the past inviting her along was not an option...I never even considered it. When I say go out I mean somewhere with a group of friends not 'a night on the town'. For the most part me and my W are home bodies and neither one of use consume alcohol so clubs, bars ect was not our thing. And when we did go out and do something it was always together (ALWAYS). So for me to go do the grocery shopping alone is new to me and different.
My W was not the only one who was impacted by my old negative self. I hurt and disrespected others close to me. I want to become a more positive person. I have a new outlook on life and it would indeed be so much better if my W would share it with me.
OK, so if you always went WITH her then making new friends would be different... going out to things while she was at home is different...
My advice would be to schedule outings with friends and invite her along, casually, giving her again the choice.
Let me think on her handing the choice back to you.
But right now I think if she does hand the choice to you on coming along I think the best answer is :
Of course I would like you to come with me. I always enjoy your company. I miss you when you're not there. I do understand however if you don't want to go to this one.
Feel free to modify this a bit, but I think its casual enough that there's no pursuit in there, it scores you a few points on flattery as well.
Its a work in progress.
Let me ask you all a question. I was sitting thinking about what has work and what has not up to this point and compiling a list.
I though about my public affection 180 were there was none on my part in the past. I remember just a little over a month ago we went a few places and were holding hands. It was a good time. The next day I pressured her by saying "how can I keep that ring on your finger?" And she told me it was over and she was being courteous and "co-existing" the day before. Then maybe a week or so later she was less willing to hold my hand. At one point I asked her "may I?" And took her hand. She had a look on her face as if she was bothered when I first took her hand and I asked "something bothering you, is this ok?" She responded " you never did this before"
Since then there has not been much of the same public affection but also since then a EA was confronted and she has opened up the line of communication more.
The question is... Would it be pursuit or pressure to try the hand holding again? Or is it something I will need to try and get a reaction? Is it too soon to try?
You do things for the home you two share togther.
Do things that she would like, but that don't involve you having to talk TO her.
If there's something that needs fixed, you fix it. If something needs replaced, you replace it.
It's ok to make a plan to go out with friends and INVITE her ALONG.. THAT isn't pursuit... and it shows her you aren't detaching from her too
You can't just become the man she wants you to be.. you need to become the person YOU want to be too or all of this is just pursuit and you losing yourself in your marriage.
The object is to become someone you BOTH can respect.
If there is something you did before that hurt her, like detachment, do something different. It does NOT have to be the OPPOSITE, just different.
HOW did you detach before? Just walked out and didn't tell her where you were going or when you would be back.
This doenst' mean you have to INVITE her ALONG as your primary source of company every time you walk out the door.
You just need to make sure she kNOWs where you are and when you will come back. THAT is an improvement in you, something she will have more respect for, and there's no pursuit there at all.
I dunno, it seems like oftentimes you WANT to pursue her so BADLY right now that you are rationalizing yoruself into thinking its going to help.... we've been where you are... It doesn't help.
Bear with me here.. if SHE is sending you enough messages that she wants you to talk to her, to take her someplace, etc, then by all means DO IT and then exit.
MWD makes this point in her book. If you DO something with your spouse that's great, but YOU be the FIRST to leave.
Don't hover or hang all over the exchange waiting for her to fall into your arms... ain't gonna happen.
That's a perfect explanation of the distinction, Allen.
Puppy
Perfect as in 'Five Whistles" perfect? lol
Perfect as in 'Five Whistles" perfect? lol
NOBODY has ever gotten "Five Whistles." (spoken like "NOBODY can eat fifty eggs!" Heck, I give out very few FOUR Whistles! lol
NOBODY Can Eat 50 Eggs! It had a good beat, and it was easy to dance to. I'd give it . . . a 3.6.
Puppy
I got a five whistles once, but each post since then has been falling short...
Ah my Glory Days are all behind me now...
I must've been drinkin'.
With the sheer volume of your QUALITY work, Allen, I'm thinkin' you're going to be more of a "Lifetime Achievement Award" kinda guy. The Clint Eastwood of affair-busting.
Puppy
Nah, I will leave you the Dirty Harry crown sir... you've definitely earned the title by now lol
(
And if your're curious... here's the reference
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1953210&page=1)
Again- sometimes it will be accepted and sometimes rejected... Just dont let it effect you if she turns you down...one other thing that comes to my mind- a big hick-up in my own sitch- if you two are together and there is eye contact, be wary of gazing deeply...
I did that SOOO often and it was just plain pathetic...I was letting my feelings show but W was majorly turned off- "why are you staring at me" etc...it made me feel like a creep.
Thats neither here nor there, but be mindful of it...
I say keep with the PDA (pub. display of affect-havent said that since high school...lol)...
If you get serious backlash, just back off, otherwise I think the -"you never used to do that" is a good thing
I am guilty of doing that... I'd stare and she would say "what? Something wrong with me? " I don't do it as much but I will certainly stop.
The past two days communication has been limited but no arguing. She basically slept and I let her and I make sure our interactions are positive.
Hold on.. there's been arguing?
you really need to get out of that trap... how do arguments happen?
She's not cheating on you... what on earth do you have to argue about?
Sorry if there was a misinterpretation of my last post but I have not argued with my W since this whole sitch first happened on 01/24/10. I know better.
My wife has said some very hurtful things. She did many hurtful things and now she gives me the impression she can careless what I do but I don't EVER argue about her feelings. I suck it up the best I can and carry on.
What worked for me was that it was okay for HER to say what was on her mind, and I validated the FEELINGS. However when she crossed the line and started saying the things that weren't true, I just held up my finger and said very calmly that I wasn't going to listen to anything any more that was not true and walked away.
Oh she got mad and pissy at first, but after awhile, she realized that she was getting mad at an empty room. Don't justify why what she's saying isn't true, that will feed her drama button.
Be assertive and firm but not angry. I notice from the guys when they do that, they're wives don't become as hostile any more.
I can honestly say my W has not been as nasty toward me as she once was. I don't know if it is due to my DB approach or she has just given up and does not care anymore. I hope its not the latter.
I only try to initiate positive interaction. Lately she has been giving me the shoulder shrug and the short snippy responses as if I said something wrong or she can careless.
But then there are the times where she, out of courtesy, asks if I want something (such as food).
Like I said I am not sure if she has given up on me entirely and just counting down the days ir if there is still hope
There's always hope. Just be wary of the mood swings. That was the hardest part of me to deal with. It was like living with Dr. Jekyl. I never knew what would set her off. The walking on eggshells was tough until I realized that I didn't have to walk on them any longer.
Her care less attitude is exactly that. She could care less. She doesn't want to deal with drama, yet doesn't want to admit that she's the one causing it. Carry on with YOUR life. How you do that is going to depend on your sitch. Finding that neutral area where you don't get affect by her and yet she doesn't get upset with you is where you need to get to first.
Mr Bond if you don't mind me asking...we're you able to reconcile your sitch?
I am not sure if you have been reading along but giving my situation do you have any tips or thread recommendations that I can benefit from?
I will give you one tip OIN. Your wife feeds off your hope. If you feel hopeless she has nothing to live off of.
You need to project hope when around her. I know you likely do. I just thought I would mention it.
I honestly do think you are doing well OIN. If you compare your wife now from a long time ago when she was at her worst I think you will see considerable progress. And yes you can give yourself credit for that.
Thanks for the encouragement. Yes my W, at least around me, has toned down. I cant speak the same about how she projects me to others. I learned not to say the things that would cause her to lash out at me. I admit sometimes I still find myself saying something that causes to tell me she is leaving. If I ask her to stay, she tells me she is leaving. So I try not to say things that would suggest I think there is a future between us. I just take it one day at a time.
The past week it seems like she is becoming more detached. As I said in a previous post in is like she just does not care for my efforts anymore, that in her heart and mind she is gone but physically she remains.
Also I want to add, I will do my best to not seem hopeless. I know I need to project a more positive person and bring myself to a better place mentally. It is tough but I am working toward that point.
OIN,
I haven't been able to bust my D...yet. I've been at this for 2 years and the drama so far could be turned into a made for tv movie (the OM actually came to my workplace to have me fired).
What I can say is that I've seen it all from the mood swings, to the "forgetful" memories, to the evil OM, to the IL who encourage my W. It's all been an uphill battle.
I can honestly say that things are wayyyy better than they were a year ago. Where she used to not speak at all to me, we're actually having nice conversations. Where she didn't want to "accidentally" bump into me, I can now hold he without her flinching.
In my W's case, she's prone to depression and it was compounded by three major triggers that set off her MLC.
I definitely don't think I'm done, but it's taken alot of understanding and patience. It all comes down to you and if you want to save your M or not.
You'll find strengths you never believed you had.
Something unexpected happened today....
Every 4 months my W schedule changes where she has to bid on a new shift. This time around she bid to have mon-tues off. These are same days off as OM.
My W and I were sitting there and OMW called. I put her on speaker OMW said OM is beside her. OM got a call that my W took same days off as him. OM told his wife and now she us fuming. OMW proceeds to call my W crazy, a stalker and made some threats. OM got on the line and said it has to stop it is getting way out of control and he will quit his job if he had to.
After the call my W became angry and started to say things like "I can't take off the days I want?" "Its like their trying to control my life" then looks at me and says "you controlled my life for 10 years and now they want to do the same"
She then wanted to chck my phone logs. So we sat there for nearly an hour going through the logs comparing numbers. She started to say there were numbers there b4 that r not now. She continues on about OMW and starts to attack me. I become victim for something I did not do.
I told her "I would not lie to her, this has got out of hand, she called me and it was unexpected" I did say and should not had "I understand why you r upset and this is not my doing. I can't unbderstand why I am to blame"
When I told her some of the long calls were to counselors ect she said it does not matter....I thought if it did not matter then y r we going through this.
I told her I had some errand to run and needed some time to think then I left....
It would seems she does not care nor wants to hear about all the help I received to become a better person.
What's my next move? Should I lay low and stay quit or do I carry on like I was with a smile like this never happened. I admit I am upset. I have been submissive and walked on eggshells for a long time now and I am at fault even when I am not at fault.
OIN, I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to think your wife has mental health issues. Her behavior toward OM is starting to get very close to the "boiling-the-bunnies" stage.
I think she needs some professional help, beyond what we can give here.
Puppy
I agree with PDT. Or your W was embarassed at being confronted that way and tried to switch the blame to you.
You shouldn't have taken the time to go through the records with her or validating anything. Best thing would be to have just said "if that's what you believe" after her accusing you of being "controlling" and then left.
The OM could have been lying to his W because he got caught and wants to convince people your W is crazy. The OM in my sitch did the same thing and then I turned it around on him.
Whatever you do, don't engage to be pulled into another confrontation.
I agree, dont get sucked in...gaslighting.
You are the one who is sane at this point in time...
I know better by now to get sucked or drawn into an argument and I bit my tongue the whole time. I agreed to do the phone log thing because my W has this paranoia that I am conversing with someone behind her back or keeping something from her. I wanted to show her I have nothing to hide and maybe set an example for her so she would be more forthcoming (this was suggested in this thread a few weeks back).
I have decided I would NOT go cold and continue my detached loving because it is more inviting and less stressful. Why should I mope around and walk around ticked off and put myself in a terrible mood (that is me of old). I will stay positive and carry on working toward my goal.
As for her sanity, I agree. I am scheduled to speak with a therapist tomorrow and I will see how it goes, if it is good I will see if she is interested.
The issue I have....I read in many threads and in DR book to not talk about your changes just make the changes and that your WAS will notice. When my wife questions me about a phone call or where I am going and I tell her (counseling, therapist) she immediately shrugs her shoulders and blows it off as if she never asked the question.
"The issue I have....I read in many threads and in DR book to not talk about your changes just make the changes and that your WAS will notice. When my wife questions me about a phone call or where I am going and I tell her (counseling, therapist) she immediately shrugs her shoulders and blows it off as if she never asked the question."
You're doing the therapy for you and to help you. It doesn't matter what she thinks. If she chooses to shrug it off, so what? You don't need her validation.
Stand strong my friend.
You have a lot of prooving to do. That is what she is waiting to see.....the results.
Indeed I do and I have come a long way from the person I use to be and will continue to make strides.
After a long nap my W seemed to have calmed down. She was curious as to what I did when I was gone. When I told her I bought a new bedroom set, her tone in her voice changed as if it affected her. If you recall a previous post I made the mistake of asking her to go with me and pick one out (pursuit) and she told me to do it on my own pretty much cause she was leaving anyway...so I did.
She then went and took her 3rd shower of the day and asked if I could make her lunch. It's been a while since she asked that.
Not much but an update that is open for interpretation (and a little venting).
I don't think you should have made her a sandwich. I mean she was the one who pretty much verbally beat you up and then you do something nice for her?
I understand it's a something you view as positive that she asked from you, but there are some times that you need to look at the context.
Did she even apologize?
No she did not apologize. In her mind she feels ity is justified giving wjat I put her through for so many years. Who am I to argue with her emotions and tell hjer the way she feels is wrong.
I made her lunch because she asked, it is a 180. Before my sitch I would gad sai "pffft make it yourself" or maybe I would had done it reluctantly and let it be know that I was not happy to do it.
I did not offer to make it like I had done in the past. When my sitch first began I was making her lunch every night for 3 weeks straight and leaving little notes in there, I stopped.
On another note I went to a therapist today. It went well but was brief. I will give it another session or two before I ask my W I'd she would like to attend on her own. I am still trying to get a feel for the therapist as well. I don't want it to hurt our marriage any more than it is now
I will give it another session or two before I ask my W I'd she would like to attend on her own.
I don't think you should ask her. If she thinks you are the one needing to see a therapist, she won't appreciate you trying to involve her (if that is what you meant).
OIN, here's how you handle the therapist :
1. Ask the therapist what they think. Don't just DO IT, just ask for their input.
2. My advice may be the same, might be different, here it is : You ask the Therapist to put their name and # on one of his business cards inviting her my HAND... make sure they WRITE on the card... inviting her to call and make an appointment any time she wants to... just an open invite from the therapist.
You just put the card on the table and let her know its from the therapist. You do NOT HAND her the card. you put it on the table and wait for HER to PICK it UP... when SHE wants to.
The card has a friendly handwritten invite on the back from the therapist, she can use it if she wants to.
If your wife ASKS you after picking it up to make her a separate appointment or whatever, do that... but do NOT just walk home and try to get her into a verbal conversation for a commitment to an appointment.
You need to understand approaching a WS for conversation to them they just see a big NET hanging off the ceiling and they want to RUN.
So, don't do the convo. put the invite on the card, from the therapist and let her call the shots.
She MIGHT find the task of making the call too stressful and ask you do it.
Do it then.. don't RUN to the PHONE.. just say "sure, no problem" and go make a sandwich or something... don't make a huge deal of it... you do a handspring and she will feel trapped again.
your wife needs to feel like SHE is in CONTROL... so give her control of it... no harm there.
Make the appointment privately, don't do it in front of her... It's just going to stress her out.
You need to keep the appointment booking thing REALLY casual... she will smell it as a trap, mine did bigtime.
AA,
That's actually a very good suggestion. Might use it myself.
OIN, here's how you handle the therapist :
1. Ask the therapist what they think. Don't just DO IT, just ask for their input.
2. My advice may be the same, might be different, here it is : You ask the Therapist to put their name and # on one of his business cards inviting her my HAND... make sure they WRITE on the card... inviting her to call and make an appointment any time she wants to... just an open invite from the therapist.
You just put the card on the table and let her know its from the therapist. You do NOT HAND her the card. you put it on the table and wait for HER to PICK it UP... when SHE wants to.
The card has a friendly handwritten invite on the back from the therapist, she can use it if she wants to.
If your wife ASKS you after picking it up to make her a separate appointment or whatever, do that... but do NOT just walk home and try to get her into a verbal conversation for a commitment to an appointment.
You need to understand approaching a WS for conversation to them they just see a big NET hanging off the ceiling and they want to RUN.
So, don't do the convo. put the invite on the card, from the therapist and let her call the shots.
She MIGHT find the task of making the call too stressful and ask you do it.
Do it then.. don't RUN to the PHONE.. just say "sure, no problem" and go make a sandwich or something... don't make a huge deal of it... you do a handspring and she will feel trapped again.
your wife needs to feel like SHE is in CONTROL... so give her control of it... no harm there.
Make the appointment privately, don't do it in front of her... It's just going to stress her out.
You need to keep the appointment booking thing REALLY casual... she will smell it as a trap, mine did bigtime.
Let me ask you all a question.
Over the past few weeks periodically my wife will grab my phone and check the logs. And if you have been reading along, yesterday, I receive a call from OM and OMW which prompt my wife to check the phone logs.
Later in the day I asked her "Do you feel like I am hiding something from you" she said "I don't know" I told her "I would like you to know I don't and if you would like to know something feel free to ask."
Today (short while ago) I heard a noise and I started to walk around the house to try and find out what it was. I was lead to the bedroom where my W was sleeping. She looked at me and I asked "Did you hear a noise" she replied "It was my phone, my father text messaged me" she then proceeded to tell me what the text read and part of it was "Will I see you on Saturday" and I asked "Did you tell him, yes?" because she had already told me she was going on Saturday. She said no and she said it is OK. The issue is her father text her and she does not reply and sometimes the text is "Are you OK?" leading her father to believe she is not OK causing him to worry.
I got upset and tried my best to stay calm and cool but did say "That's not fair" meaning not fair for her to keep her father in suspense and his reaction is going to be "You got to get out of there."
a few minutes later I get a call and when it ended she immediately wanted to know who it was. I jokingly said "someone" but then told her i was kidding and said who called (I know I crossed the line there).
It got to me more than it should had....so the question is...should it bother me? Should I address this concern with her or would that come off as controlling?
Also I will ask the therapist during my next session.
Uh why is she checking YOUR phone? Does she let you look at hers? I would suggest you tell that she needs to ask before she looks. Not that you're hiding anything, but that's purely a lack of respect. She has to respect you.
She has to see that trust is a two-way street. She'll call you names and say you're an @$$ and what do you have to hide, etc. But hold your hand up and say that it is a matter of respect and you would like her to extend to you the same consideration you extend to her.
I think you need to hit her with doses of reality to break up her craziness and selfishness.
It's the same as the sitch with her father. SHE doesn't want to respond even though she knows he worries. Extremely childish and selfish. You don't need to say that she is self-centered, you just need to guide her so that when she does do something positive, she thinks it's her own decision.
My W actually does not call me names ect. (at least not to my face). My W also doe snot use profanity.
I think she is checking my phone because she thinks I might be retaliating back at her. Meaning if I thought she was having an A, she thinks I would do the same to get make it even.
She also thinks if its OK for me to talk to OMW, how is that different from her talking OM. I could give her 100 reasons but she still thinks what she was doing is nothing more than a "friendship" and is not wrong for doing it.
I need to gain control of my emotions when situations get tense. Every once in a while I slip back into the mindset that my feelings should matter to her.
It's disrespectful -- I agree with Bond.
There is no quid pro quo here, at least there shouldn't be.
Puppy
It's disrespectful -- I agree with Bond.
There is no quid pro quo here, at least there shouldn't be.
Puppy
OIN, the simple response about her challenge of double standard is :
"Everyone is in the loop when I have a conversation. You are welcome to hear, OM and OMW are all involved - THAT is the difference, and its a BIG difference to OM WIFE."
Don't mention what hers was, just tell her what a HEALTHY exchange looks like and cut it off.
Ouch... why did you make a joke like that? SEVEN STEPS BACK MAN.. every time you take a jab or a run at her you LOSE SEVEN GOOD STEPS you made forward... ouch ouch ouch
CONTROL YOURSELF
If her father is calling her to find out if she's ok just tell him your house is an open book. Hand him a key and tell him he is welcome to come over any day or night you are'nt hiding ANYTHING.. same deal as his daughter's getting.
Do NOT prompt her to ASK you if she wants the truth.. you are tempting her to conversations which is PURSIT
Your wife wants to KNOW what you are doing but does NOT want to TALK to you to find OUT.. get it? You NEED to GET that and stop poking at her. I remember you tried that line before. STOP prompting her to ASK you for the truth.. that is NOT setting a good example. Your WIFE will throw that at YOU when you call OMW.
You call OMW and YOUR WIFE will just say "if you want the truth.. ASK ME.. don't call her... ASK ME"
You are setting yourself up man.
Don't prompt her to talk to you.. its pursuit.
i agree...man I wish I was posting here when I needed to be...lots of good stuff from everyone.
OIN- the therapy thing suggested by AA is perfect- never tell W when an appointment is or if she can make it.
The phone ordeal- absolutely she has no right to look through it...W pulled that shirt on me...sadly I had texted a friend from work (female) about my sitch and it fed the flames...
Making her a sandwich- decent 180, but be careful she doesnt turn you into a doormat...
W wanted a beer once- I told her she could get it...she texted me from the couch..."get my beer bi^ch..."- she laughed and I laughed...and my dumbars got it for her b/c I was up anyway...
Didnt know a good way outta that one...but prob didn't look very good for me...
Well Jasper, I actually think its ok for her to look through his phone... he's got nothing to hide.
She's not cheating on him right now, so he really needs to turn the focus around to setting an example rather than being in affair-combatting mode...
Even if she won't let you look at her phone, I would still show her yours.. you got nothin to hide.. it may take her six months to get it and share hers, but who cares.. you are no worse off by setting the example so I say do it.... you can gain a lot by settin an example and you stand to LOSE a lot by not doing it.
If you want your wife to trust you and you want to trust her you have to take a FEW steps.. and sharing YOUR phone when there's NOTHING hidden in there ANYWAYS is a FREE step on your part... I say take it
OIN if you sharing your phone seems to have warmed her up to you more over the long haul then I say keep doin it.
Is it wrong for me to leave books I am reading laying around? Right now I hide them but I have nothing to hide, I am just making myself a better person and don't like to hide that fact.
What are the books?
My advice is to put them in your living space, on your side of the bed on the table etc.. At the same time, dont' wave them in her face...
I wouldn't hide them no... keep bookmarks in them so she can snoop to see what specifically you are reading about...
Dont' talk about the books, if she asks about them just be VERY casual...
HER : What are you reading about.. what do they say?
YOU : They are right there if you want to have a look at what I am reading..
HER : Just tell me what they are saying.
YOU : I don't want you to feel like I am lecturing you. You are welcome to look at them ok?
And you walk away...
If you didn't walk away from that convo above you would end up in a fight...
What would have happened ...
YOU : It says that people quit on marriages too early. It says they get distant and negative and try to push their spouses away rather than communicating how they feel... some even start an affair...
HER : That's crap
YOU : I dunno... some of it sounds true.
HER : That's it.. I am DEFINITELY LEAVING.
Don't put them in her space, keep them in your living space only... dont lay them out on display either.. stack them with a bokmark in a place where you would be likley to read them. That's it.
If she wants to look tell her she's more than welcome to open them but don't let her drag you into a summary.. she will start arguing with the book.. that happened to me too many times.
If she disagrees with the book she will attack YOU and YOU will suddenly be associated with marriage-saving and it will all go downhill.
let her keep the books ideas separate from you... you want HER to take the ideas into her head on their OWN... no pressure from you and certainly without you reading to her or summarizing... she needs to hear the books content on her OWN TERMS without your involvement.
One of the books is for Anger Management, which was primarily my down fall in our relationship and looking back a great deal in life itself.
The other is religious. I have opposed religion for a very long time (agnostic). Pretty much as long as she has known me I had always been a doubter. After talking to a couple of my co-workers I had come to the realization that had an unhealthy outlook on life. I intend on attending service his Sunday with a co-worker (first time in 17 years or so).
I would not leave any marriage books laying around because she would see it as manipulation and more than like will back off more.
Allen,
As for the FIL he text messages her. I read them, when she does not delete the messages which is 90% of the time. When she talks to her father she makes sure I am not around.
You know at times I feel like DBing is hopeless. I understand he core concept of DBing. Change oneself and hopefully the WAS will be INFLUENCED by the changes reconciliation becomes possible.
I am unfortunate to have her in the same household with me but in many sitches that is not the case.
Lately our days consist of her going to work coming home then sleep till ???. As she sleeps I do productive things while she remains counter-productive. When our sitch began and for the first 3-4 weeks into it we were doing a lo together and now that has stopped. I tell her I am heading out and she is welcome to come but she never budges.
Well, that's how she felt for ten years right? She felt like she was trying and you were being counter productve and negative
She kept it up for ten years... how long can you last feeling like she did?
This is a blatant test man.. she's testing to see if you have the balls to be a married man when its really painful.. and trust me if she ain't mounting another man each night while you do all this work you don't know what pain is... you got it GOLD
I think you're misunderstanding what DB-ing is. It's doing what works. Have you actually written down your mini-goals on what behaviors you want to see in your W and see if you can achieve them?
There's more to DB than just GAL. It's changing the WAS's perception of you. Right now you feel like nothing's working because you are just going with the flow. Think of it like an experiment like Pavlov's dog. You do what you can to get positive responses from your W and you do more of them. The first thing to do is to figure out what those actions are to increase the positives.
It's like you're dating someone for the first time. You do everything you can to find out about the person and what makes them happy and do more of it.
Just not too overboard. In your sitch though, your W needs to understand and remember what respect is. She had the A, not you. She is in her "victim" stage. Where she's playing the victim and blaming everyone else for her paranoia but herself. Don't play into it. My W did the same thing. She had threatened to call the cops on me one night because I told her our D was sick and should just stay over at my place for the night since she had fallen asleep. I told her she could come over and visit or even stay over if she wanted to, but she said I was holding our D hostage and it was her day to have her. I told her to stop and that I was thinking about our D and it was about time she started doing the same. I told her she was not going to be playing the victim and make me out to be the bad guy. That it was her decision that she not see the girls every day and to go ahead and call the cops if she felt she needed to. Lo and behold, that night she came over and was very friendly and sorry.
You need to do that from time to time. Give them a dose of reality so they have to think of the consequences they are causing.
Well, that's how she felt for ten years right? She felt like she was trying and you were being counter productve and negative
She kept it up for ten years... how long can you last feeling like she did?
This is a blatant test man.. she's testing to see if you have the balls to be a married man when its really painful.. and trust me if she ain't mounting another man each night while you do all this work you don't know what pain is... you got it GOLD
AMEN!!!!
It's ok mr bond, the affair was quite mild from the sounds of OIN's investigation.
I don't think she even thinks it was an affair to be honest... I think she's still young and doesn't know fully what infidelity IS.
Part of the problem with the pavlov's dog model in d-busting is that the dog is not RESISTANT to the test.
With a wayward SPOUSE you have to work a LOT harder and it can take WEEKS to get a response. There are things I did for months and I saw NO change from it... BUT my wife told me after the affair ended that it made a huge difference to her.. she just was too proud and stubborn to say anything.
I honestly am very hesitant to make assessments about a WS based on a few months' of d-bing
I DO agree that this is about changing perception... but you may not SEE ANY indicator that this perception was changed.. It can take a VERY long time to see those changes have any impact.
Conversely, if she DOENS"T like what you're doing, you will likely find out right away.
My main point is, don't expect any smiles from her for a long time.. you seem to use HER behavior to motivate you... you need to motivate yourself.. you need to WANT to be a good person.. you can't just want to be a good person to keep HER smiling.
I know it feels hopeless, but you gotta fight past that... she's TESTING you EVERY day.
The problem OIN is that if you only want to be a good person while she is showing some sliver of hope and she walks out the door.... YOU have NO REASON to be an adult anymore.
Your reason for being an adult must come from YOU... don't use her frown to put you down or her smile to life you up each day.. or you will LOSE this battle I promise you that.
At the end of this battle the wondeful thing is that YOU will be a great partner, for her or someone else.. and your marriage.. this one OR a new one will be MUCH better becuase of the work YOU are doing... so there is no reason to not do it if she's resisting... its for YOU, not for her
Well, that's how she felt for ten years right? She felt like she was trying and you were being counter productve and negative
She kept it up for ten years... how long can you last feeling like she did?
This is a blatant test man.. she's testing to see if you have the balls to be a married man when its really painful.. and trust me if she ain't mounting another man each night while you do all this work you don't know what pain is... you got it GOLD
You are right. Compared to other sitches this is GOLD. It could be so much worse for me and I am very grateful it is not. One thing that plagues me is the thought - Even though I was a complete a-hole most of the time, I did not ever deny her affection, intimacy - and so sometimes I think "I was never this bad" but the fact is I was worse! I will do what it takes to save my marriage.
---------------------------------------------
What did work, I failed to mark down or remember, and those positive changes faded away. In other instances what did work, no longer works.
When my sitch first began I overwhelmed my W with love and praise, she told me "thats what I always wanted, I just don't trust you and believe its true, I have to believe you." Then it became "too little too late" and then "I will never be happy with you" that's when the A started to surface. I stopped doing what no longer worked. The A was confronted, she is no longer as bitter and nasty as she was. I have not gone back to doing those things that worked when the sitch first began because I have learned the following.
- Anytime I ask or mentioned something that suggest there is a future she kills that thought quickly with "I'm leaving."
- Anything that would make me think there is a hope for a future she won't entertain. For example making any decision for improving the household ect.
I remember when this all began and I covered the bathroom mirror with heart shaped post-it notes. One each post-it I wrote a reason for why I loved her. She took a picture on her cellphone and left a post-it for me and it read -
"I want to be loved unconditional, I want happiness. I want this far fetched dream to be reality."
I then researched what exactly is unconditional love and in essence I gathered - to love someone with no prejudice, no matter of appearance, no matter how loving or bitter than person is toward you. Like a dogs love for it's owner or quite simply god's love.
For the Pavlov model, I was referring more towards his W's erratic behavior. I think that has to stabilize in some way and if she's not getting professional help, then it's the only thing he can do to keep the peace.
The problem OIN is that if you only want to be a good person while she is showing some sliver of hope and she walks out the door.... YOU have NO REASON to be an adult anymore.
Your reason for being an adult must come from YOU... don't use her frown to put you down or her smile to life you up each day.. or you will LOSE this battle I promise you that.
At the end of this battle the wondeful thing is that YOU will be a great partner, for her or someone else.. and your marriage.. this one OR a new one will be MUCH better becuase of the work YOU are doing... so there is no reason to not do it if she's resisting... its for YOU, not for her
You are right. My anger issues did not only impact my R with my W and our M but also my R with my parents and other family and friends. I was often called "miserable bastard." I will be honest and say that I have thought about the future and the possibility of there being a "someone else" as much as I don't want to feed that thought I know in my heart that I don't ever want to travel down the same road again and make the same mistakes. No one deserves to be treated the way I treated my W and I can only hope that I get the opportunity to be the one to treat her the way she DOES DESERVE.
The issue is I beat myself up over the past but that is something I am slowly but surely overcoming.
No sense beating yourself up, put the energy into repairing the damage and unfortunately stomaching the temporary storm... its not that bad really.. I know it feels like it, but if the worst she's doing is talking about leaving and giving you the cold shoulder...I think you can handle it.
You're a cop right? Aren't they supposed to be like tough?
To know my W before the sitch and who she is now, is a harsh reality of how far gone she is (emotionally, mentally).
Yes I am a Police Officer. The difference between those I encounter on the streets and the situation at home is I don't love them, so their words and actions don't affect me. On that note...
Before our sitch nothing on the job bothered me. When I went to homes where spouses were abused I never thought to myself "That's me" , "that's what I go through" now when I go to "Domestic Trouble" calls I get sick to my stomach, all I can think about is my sitch, it makes me want to reconcile even more.
No sense beating yourself up, put the energy into repairing the damage and unfortunately stomaching the temporary storm... its not that bad really.. I know it feels like it, but if the worst she's doing is talking about leaving and giving you the cold shoulder...I think you can handle it.
I am also dealing with outside influence. Co-workers who are not pro-marriage and a FIL who is saying "you need to get out of that situation" to her.
That's why in DB it says not listen to friends or family. The only person whose opinion matters is yours. Only you can decide when to call it quits.
It's why this forum helps out so much. No one else but us understands what it takes to do what we do. Hang in there bro.
That's why in DB it says not listen to friends or family. The only person whose opinion matters is yours. Only you can decide when to call it quits.
It's why this forum helps out so much. No one else but us understands what it takes to do what we do. Hang in there bro.
MrBond OIN is saying is WIFE's father is telling his WIFE to leave him... I think yuou misread that... ?
Either that or I did..
OIN. I really don't know about FIL.
I remember you saying earlier that you tried to talk to him, but it sounds like he's giving YOU one story and his daughter a different one in secret.. is that the case?
Yes. He told me he hoped we could work it out but it is up to us noone else. He said it is tough when one wants it and the other does not. He also made reference to his divorce and how he and my W mother are much happier. He then went on to tell me to take it one day at a time and told the both of us to be honest and communicate with each other
My w told me her father told her to get out of the siuation and move in with him temporary till the other apt is ready. My w said she could not do that cause it would be a 2hr drive to work so she will just wait till the other apt is ready.
My w told me her father spoke to me from experience and to her with his heart.
OK. Well, you have two choices then.
1. You can talk to the father
2. You can turn away from him and show him up to his daughter
He's clearly lying to you. He tells you its no one else's business and then in private he counsels her against you? Does he KNOW that you are aware of the secret advice he's been trying to send her?
I am just wondering if you called him or it or if won't do any good. I don't expect you to win him over.
I just wonder if you just sat with him and asked him to give you a chance and to back off if he would. I dunno .. It's his daughter... and I guess the mother in law is telling her daughter the same story?
You may just have to keep up the good work and believe that your wife loves you enough still that she will give you that chance. You are making a dent, you have acknowledged that... you will have to keep trying... either that or approach FIL to back off.. but you write as if you don't think that's an option.
If you can't trust him then no sense trying... but if you think it might do some good to ask him to stop meddling behind your back... Maybe he doens't see what he's doing is having any impact and you need to explain to him that it DOES... It's all based on how much you trust him and how adult he is about this whole thing... you have to gauge that.
My W has slept from 2pm till 11pm I was going to bed she got out went to the restroom came back out and laid on the bedroom floor???? I got up grabbed a pillow walked past her and she said "where u going" I said "going to go lay on the couch, so you can be comfortable in bed" she replied "I am comfortable that's why I came down her, not because u went in bed."
Odd and hard to believe. I still walked out the room...
OK. Well, you have two choices then.
1. You can talk to the father
2. You can turn away from him and show him up to his daughter
He's clearly lying to you. He tells you its no one else's business and then in private he counsels her against you? Does he KNOW that you are aware of the secret advice he's been trying to send her?
I am just wondering if you called him or it or if won't do any good. I don't expect you to win him over.
I just wonder if you just sat with him and asked him to give you a chance and to back off if he would. I dunno .. It's his daughter... and I guess the mother in law is telling her daughter the same story?
You may just have to keep up the good work and believe that your wife loves you enough still that she will give you that chance. You are making a dent, you have acknowledged that... you will have to keep trying... either that or approach FIL to back off.. but you write as if you don't think that's an option.
If you can't trust him then no sense trying... but if you think it might do some good to ask him to stop meddling behind your back... Maybe he doens't see what he's doing is having any impact and you need to explain to him that it DOES... It's all based on how much you trust him and how adult he is about this whole thing... you have to gauge that.
I approached him twice since the sitch began. The first time he did sound upset and hoped we worked it out and said "I love you" the second time he was giving hidden messages as if I should just give up "end the end you guys got to do what makes you happy and accept it for what it is." After that I knew talking to him would be a lost cause.
Each time I admitted my faults and expressed my love for his daughter.
He likley needs to be divorce busted along with his daughter.. it would be a very similar process. No talking, just DOing... good constructive healthy things and setting an example consistently to win him over again.
Its do-able.
My W has slept from 2pm till 11pm I was going to bed she got out went to the restroom came back out and laid on the bedroom floor???? I got up grabbed a pillow walked past her and she said "where u going" I said "going to go lay on the couch, so you can be comfortable in bed" she replied "I am comfortable that's why I came down her, not because u went in bed."
Odd and hard to believe. I still walked out the room...
TOugh call, but I would have done the same as you... You took advantage of the awkwardness to look the better man for it all.. well played.
If she comes out to get you to come back then just go back... but not if she is on the floor... my wife tried this too.. we used to argue about sleeping arrangements all the time... we both tried to sleep somewhere uncomfortable to make the other feel guilty.. lol
FIL lives 2hrs away at the moment. My W does not talk to him often and neither do I. I could do a 180 and call him once a week but now would be a terrible tim to start because my wife will see it as. Way to win her over and it would set us back.
Can't fault your FIL though. He's doing what we would say to our kids in the end. We would want what makes them "happy". That's why DB says to not count on family and friends.
FIL lives 2hrs away at the moment. My W does not talk to him often and neither do I. I could do a 180 and call him once a week but now would be a terrible tim to start because my wife will see it as. Way to win her over and it would set us back.
Yes, she would see that I think. Its a shame you hadn't invested more in that relationship earlier too.. I guess you see that as a mistake now too... Women usually take a lot of pride in their fathers and building a close relationship to them on your part is a key expression of your commitment to yer. I am sure you get that now... don't mean to give you I told ya so's.
Onward and upward right? What you could do is just invite him to call you or to visit anytime he wants. That way you have at least opened the door and if he rejects it then its on him. I assume he has your cell phone number at least?
I don't think your wife will be offended if you open the door, but pursuing him would yes be pursuing her...
So the new bed set was delivered today. My W participated in the assembly. Once all completed she wanted to take a ride somewhere, I said I would join her because I had to go to the same place.
My wife then said "we need to get some patio furniture." And I said "we can go and look" 10 min later I comeback and said "where did you want to go look for the furniture" she then replied "I didn't want to, that's up to you if you want it. Your the one who will be spending the money" she then walks out the room and back in and said "you ever figure out what your going to do with the mortgage once I leave?" And I replied "I thought about it before yes" so in return she said "because your going to have a lot of payments" and walked out the room again.... Wow
"Wow" is right.
Your wife has a bit of the "b-gene" going there, doesn't she OIN?
Whoo boy.
PUppy
Rhymes with "itch." It's a little code-word between the fetching Mrs. Puppy and me, sorry.
Your W is totally still sucking you into her drama. She likes to know that she can CONTROL you. She checks your phone, throws comments at you, confuses you on purpose and you keep dancing to her tune.
You need to immediately stop focusing on her and focus on you. Don't mind what she's doing. She's like the playground bully right now trying to get attention and again, playing the victim when she feels like it. Don't fall for it.
Concentrate on yourself and ignore her. She'll complain that you are "ignoring" her, but again, don't fall for it.
I just got sucked into an argument over a very stupid thing....my emotions got to me. I just set myself way back. I am very disappointed in myself.
I said a joke in attempts to make her laugh she did not find it funny then she began to attack me and I sort of stuck up for myself but started to bite my tongue
Ouch... yup, WS's loves to sets them traps for ya... gotta hate it when that happens. :P
My advice OIN is not to make jokes... I find they are too easy for the WS to take offence to and then you are way back as you put it... it isn't worth it...
We all have setbacks. Don't even acknowledge her at all. Don't talk, engage, anything. But do it in a way that's not resentful. Do it in a way like you're pre-occupied with something you are working on or doing. Make her a second thought.
I left....
As I mention earlier we got a new bed set lol. We were setting up the bedding and she made the comment "I am taking my pillows into the other room I am going to sleep there" I walked out the room and said "if that's where you feel most comfortable"
When I came back in she was laying on the bed... She got up and started to dress her pillows and I said as a joke "that new pillow case is not going to match the old bedding" and laughed. She threw the pillow case left the room and started to clean the other room.
I apologized and said "it was a joke I did not intended to offend you" she started to say "just like everything else in the past 10 years you do something in response to something I did WRONG right? I am just trying to live in the same household with out stress until I leave, I am counting down the days" I told her I would go stay with my parents until then.
She got upset and said "you'll make matters worse if you do. I don't wnt them in my business" I said "how is that any different from what you shared wuth a co-worker?" She said "that was my business not your, you put me through that and I confided in that person and trusted him" I said "there are professionals you go to who can listen" she said "yeah they're called divorce lawyers...I wake up every day miserable" she went on and somewhere is there I said "if you strongly feel that way, there is the door" (oops).
In the end I grabbed something and she asked what I was doing - said " going to stay with my parents, I think its for the best" she said "whatever" I then said "I know what you are saying about me leaving to my parents will only make it worse but I can't see how it can be any better if I stay" and I left.
Do I go back? Would that be in my best interest or do I stay gone?
Stay gone for a while at least... give her a taste of what divorce feels like.
But man, you gotta control that... I won't go over the details, you know what happened and you know where things went wrong.
See if she sends you an text messages or anything... she might try to prod you to come back. This woman likely has depression OIN, you gotta treat very carefully there is all... She's not a bad person, the chemistry in her brain is out of balance and it makes it VERY hard to feel anything other than miserable... its not her fault she's got chemical imbalances so you gotta just let it go.
Don't make jokes, that's the best strategy... it is WAY too easy for someone in her mental state to read them cynically and then an argument starts... once it starts... you are dead in the water.
And while that may have sounded funny at the time, its kinda teasing... which is an aggressive joke. If you are gonna play, don't make it at her expense... I know that's not how you meant it, but that's what she's gonna hear. My wife has depression/anxiety too... I know how someone with anxiety or depression will read those jokes -- badly.
My advice is for you to sit down and think really long and hard about the exchange... I would offer a sincere apology later on... but you need to come up with something good.
I want you to look at this carefully :
--------------------------------------------
YOU : I'm sorry. It was a joke I did not intended to offend you.
HER : Just like everything else in the past 10 years you do something in response to something I did WRONG right?
--------------------------------------------
If you look at that apology of yours, it was more you defending yourself than showing her you understand how hurt she feels. What I am reading here is that she feels like you blame her whenever a problem happens. Your apology above is a repeat of that.
You see, you tell her you didn't want to offend, which implies that SHE overreacted or misunderstood. In short, to her, mind you are telling her its HER fault for not hearing YOU right.
This is a very telling exchange here if its accurate to what was said. She seems to think you redirect mishaps back into her lap whenever you two have an exchange.
--------------------
From now on...
If she gets hurt, you could do a 180 and just show her you are thinking about how hurt she feels, don't worry about defending yourself. And yes, to her, "I didn't intend to offend" is you defending yourself.
You gotta really think long and hard about this one to understand where she's coming from.. once you get it... I think you will find a huge light bulb come on there for you.
I doubt if she's going to call you, but if she does, that's a positive. Right now she has her home, a new bed to sleep on and you're the one inconvenienced by being at your parent's place. There were alot of "I"s and "my"s in her conversation. "My business", "I'm counting the days".
Ignore her. Personally I'd go back. Why should you be the one to leave if SHE feels uncomfortable?
OK her is what happened...btw my parents live right next door lol...
Before I was able to read any of the responses I did go back, because I forgot part of my work uniform. When there she was on the couch and asked what I was lookinbg for so I told her. I left again and had the opportunity to read your posts.
Allen,
In our conversation earlier my W admitted that she was suffering from border lin depression. I thought about what you said about how she feels as if I react to her actions always making it seem like she initiated the problem.
I realized by leaving I was just repeating old patterns. I know I could have gave her a taste of divorce and wanted to but at the same time is it right for me to walk out and make her feel like her feelings don't matter? I went back... I said "I was sitting there and realized by me leaving was just repeating old patterns. What happened earlier was not your fault, I understand how you feel" she said "you can never understand" I replied "you are right"...
Earlier we had rented a movie so I asked "would you like to watch the movie" she said "if you would like" so I started the movie up and that's where we are now....
Should I leave after the movie and say "it would be better it I stayed there" ? Or stay?
I would just stay...dont say anything- listen to what she says when she says she wants to live stress free...bear in mind she will bait you and suck you in (or try)- like Allen said, if that happens, you are too pre-occupied or busy to do so...
How much damage do you think was done? Should I now become the WAS? After today, I am drained, the person she has become.... I don't know.
Alright the movie is over. Great movie btw. At tines she looked over at me and laughed. I had to run upstairs real quick (I had already seen the movie) she asked what I was doing I went back down and she wanted to see my phone. I attempted to show her something on the phone but she was tossing and turning so I could not. Then after she seen whatever she wanted to see she tossed my phone and said "doesn't matter"....?? I thought to myself "if this all does not matter why are we going through this?"
Because you keep allowing it.
What are you suggesting PDT?
As far as DBing goes, when something that was working no longer works then I should try something different... I want to make sure when all is said and done I did everything and tried everything. One thing I have not tried yet is to give her even more space by staying some place else for a few days and what for her response but giving our history I am not sue if it will help any
I had to run upstairs real quick (I had already seen the movie) she asked what I was doing I went back down and she wanted to see my phone. I attempted to show her something on the phone but she was tossing and turning so I could not. Then after she seen whatever she wanted to see she tossed my phone and said "doesn't matter"....?? I thought to myself "if this all does not matter why are we going through this?"
I find this offensive. YOU already saw the movie so you really are not giving this time together 100% of your undivided attention not to mention you left during the movie. Watch a movie together that you have not seen or if you watch one together that you have, put up with it! I would have been upset and thrown your phone at you too. Was that more important than spending the time with her? She wanted to feel that her time is just as valuable as yours. You both set aside the time to watch a movie together. Give it your all
I had to run upstairs to get a dog toy so the puppy would stop howling so we could hear the movie
Jasmine, the problem is that he has been giving her his undivided attention. In fact, a little too much and she still manages to drag him into her drama.
Seriously guy, stop giving her your phone. You're driving yourself crazy with her yanking your chain.
My apologies. I should have read through the entire post. I just caught my spousal projections here. Plus I know about puppies! Again, my apologies.
Mr Bond, what on earth is so terrible about cooperating with your spouse when they feel anxious and seeing their husband's phone sets their mind at ease?
There is no affair going on.. no need to play mind games or be aggressive at all.
She wants to see his phone.. she's got her father building an apartment for her... I say if it makes HER FEEL ANY BETTER then let her see the phone. OIN if you put up a fight over that phone to her that will just do a LOT of damage in my opinion. And I can't see any harm coming from sharing the phone. I know she's being difficult with you, but if you can stomach that for a while I think you may just save this thing... She's just being a typical wayward. I don't see any harm coming from sharing the phone.
Every time you share that phone she sets herself up so when you want to look at hers... she's already tagged and bagged...
I think you handled most of it well, not sure about the phone thing... OIN if you are messing with your phone while you are wtih her Jaz is right it may be offensive, but I honestly doubt you would be doin that..I think you know better than that by now right?
No, I was disrespectful to her and was sneaking a peek at my phone. Next time I will leave my phone in another room. I keep the phone by me due to my work.
I also was being a jerk in a sense when she took the phone. Actually I handed it over to her. I have no shame or anything to hide BUT on my blackberry is what I post from the most on this board and if she were to open the browser she would then have access to this very message board and everything I posted and that is something I do not want her to stumble upon.
If I keep the phone from her then she will start to become secretive with hers more so and then more DRAMA.
I need to reverse the DAMAGE done today.
"Mr Bond, what on earth is so terrible about cooperating with your spouse when they feel anxious and seeing their husband's phone sets their mind at ease?"
There's nothing wrong with "cooperating" or showing your spouse your phone. The issue is that she is the one who had the A, not him. And even after he shows her the phone (or she takes it which is disrespectful), she still treats him like sh*t.
And besides, the phone is only a part of the larger picture. She hasn't wanted to fess up to what she had done wrong. No remorse, no regret. She's playing the victim. Sure she was hurt in the past, but let's face it. All M are like that. Sometimes you hurt your spouse without meaning to, sometimes they hurt you. But you don't go and have an A because of it. And you definitely don't continue to treat someone like dirt when he's been bending over backwards for her.
My W as well as other WASs on here have done the same. You of all people know that. His W hasn't been as transparent as he has because he hasn't really put her to task.
IMO, it really is time for OIN to take care of himself. OIN, you're just driving yourself crazy and it's not even your drama. She wants attention, fine. But there's a difference between good attention and bad attention. Bottom line is that she told you she was still leaving, okay, so do something different.
You can be friendly, but don't bend over backwards for her. Take care of yourself first my friend. Get yourself strong. Then you can tackle her issues head on and not be second-guessing yourself.
I did a lot of typing today so I just wanted to recap fr clarity.
- W helped assemble bed set. (PRO)
- W wanted to purchased patio furniture (PRO)
- W then changed mind about patio furniture saying "I didn't want to get it, you have too many bills as it is" after I asked her where she wanted to go look (CON)
- W said "Did you think about how your going to make the mortgage payments once I leave?" (CON)
- W and I went shopping together (PRO)
- W helped pick out new bedding (SOMEWHAT PRO)
- W expressed interest in getting new lamps for bedroom (what for I thought? she is leaving anyway)
- W and I shared some laughs looking at a book in a book store (PRO)
- W and I went for ice cream (PRO)
- W and I rented a movie (PRO)
- W and I dressed the bed (PRO)
- W said she was going to sleep in different room (CON)
- W then contradicted herself and began to setup her side of the bed, which prompted me to say a joke which resulted in an argument of sorts (CON!!!!)
- W stormed out the room and began to clean other room (CON)
- I apologized to W and she said "It's my fault, I did something wrong and that's why you say what you said, just like in the past 10 years its always me doing wrong making you act like this" (CON)
- W said "I am counting down the days." (CON)
- I said "I am going to my parents while you count down the days" and W said "whatever" (CON!!)
- W begins to bring up past (CON)
- W tells me by going to parents I will make matter worse. She
does NOT want HER BUSINESS being shared. I then compared to her A with OM. she responded "That is my business, I found someone I can trust and confide in him" I questions the friendship and the trust (CON)
- W mentioned how she felt depressed (CON)
- I suggested to see a professional by saying "There are professionals who can help and listen not some random co-worker who happens to be a male." W responds with "Yeah they are called DIVORCE LAWYERS! I just need to establish grounds" and I reply "Emotional infidelity is grounds" (CON!!!!!)
- W said she is so miserable. "I go to bed miserable hoping the day would end, then I wake up and I am miserable again." I say "I give you space and object to nothing, how do I make you miserable" W says "Did I say you? stop putting words in my mouth..." she went on to attack me and so I said (regretfully) if it is bad "there is the door" (DOH!! My emotions got the best of me)
- I decided to get my stuff and leave. W said I will only make it worse, I say "I understand what you are saying, but things cannot get better by me staying here" and proceeded to leave.
- I returned, apologized for "same old patterns" and we watch
movie (PRO)
- W and I share some laughs and eye contact during movie (PRO)
- I walked away during movie (CON)
- W took phone and I reacted like a nitwit. (CON)
- I went to my W's "bedroom" she, brought dog upstairs to lay with me. (PRO)
- I apologized for walking away during movie that it was rude of me.
- W fell to sleep on couch.
(PROS:11 / CONS: 14)
Day over, here's to tomorrow...
"Mr Bond, what on earth is so terrible about cooperating with your spouse when they feel anxious and seeing their husband's phone sets their mind at ease?"
There's nothing wrong with "cooperating" or showing your spouse your phone. The issue is that she is the one who had the A, not him. And even after he shows her the phone (or she takes it which is disrespectful), she still treats him like sh*t.
And besides, the phone is only a part of the larger picture. She hasn't wanted to fess up to what she had done wrong. No remorse, no regret. She's playing the victim. Sure she was hurt in the past, but let's face it. All M are like that. Sometimes you hurt your spouse without meaning to, sometimes they hurt you. But you don't go and have an A because of it. And you definitely don't continue to treat someone like dirt when he's been bending over backwards for her.
My W as well as other WASs on here have done the same. You of all people know that. His W hasn't been as transparent as he has because he hasn't really put her to task.
IMO, it really is time for OIN to take care of himself. OIN, you're just driving yourself crazy and it's not even your drama. She wants attention, fine. But there's a difference between good attention and bad attention. Bottom line is that she told you she was still leaving, okay, so do something different.
You can be friendly, but don't bend over backwards for her. Take care of yourself first my friend. Get yourself strong. Then you can tackle her issues head on and not be second-guessing yourself.
I am doing a lot for myself. I work out, I started to do new things. I stay occupied with work. I am finding faith. I am seeing a therapist. I conquered my anger issues. I am slowly conquering my insecurities with the help of counseling and books.
My W sleeps all day! When she is not sleeping she is showering/bathing or at work (being giddy).
I hand her my phone (upon her request).
She treats me like dirt because I abused her for several years. I treated her like dirt.
I am slowly detaching myself from hanging on her every word and action. It is tough when the person you love gives a sliver of hope and it seems when she realizes she did, she then retracts her comments and dishes out a "I'm leaving"
I am using this forum as a journal, as way to vent (better here than to her), for opinions, advice and a resource. Who better to chime in than those who lived it?
My W was the greatest. There was nothing she would not do for me. She put up with so much of my garbage and managed to maintain a smile. She always put me and our R before herself. I took it all for granted, showed no appreciation and on top of that treated her like DIRT! I DESERVE all this (except for the EA part). I will endure HELL to get my W back, I just want to make sure in the process I make the necessary changes for self so I don't stray down the same roads of the past. Dont get me wrong we still had great times and thats how we made it so far, and we still have some good times considering the situation.
W said she is so miserable. "I go to bed miserable hoping the day would end, then I wake up and I am miserable again." I say "I give you space and object to nothing, how do I make you miserable" W says "Did I say you? stop putting words in my mouth..." she went on to attack me and so I said (regretfully) if it is bad "there is the door" (DOH!! My emotions got the best of me)
You need to stop taking everything so personally. She is telling you here that she is miserable. Not that the marriage is miserable. She is miserable. This could be any number of things. It could be depression. It could be a hormonal imbalance. I don't see her accusing you of anything here. But you fly off the handle and tell her to leave. Where is the connection? Where is the understanding? Where is the husband who wants to help her? It is not all about you.
W said she is so miserable. "I go to bed miserable hoping the day would end, then I wake up and I am miserable again." I say "I give you space and object to nothing, how do I make you miserable" W says "Did I say you? stop putting words in my mouth..." she went on to attack me and so I said (regretfully) if it is bad "there is the door" (DOH!! My emotions got the best of me)
You need to stop taking everything so personally. She is telling you here that she is miserable. Not that the marriage is miserable. She is miserable. This could be any number of things. It could be depression. It could be a hormonal imbalance. I don't see her accusing you of anything here. But you fly off the handle and tell her to leave. Where is the connection? Where is the understanding? Where is the husband who wants to help her? It is not all about you.
You are right. No excuses. I got caught up in the situation rather than being the husband I need to be.
What are you suggesting PDT?
As far as DBing goes, when something that was working no longer works then I should try something different... I want to make sure when all is said and done I did everything and tried everything. One thing I have not tried yet is to give her even more space by staying some place else for a few days and what for her response but giving our history I am not sue if it will help any
I'm suggesting that her crappy, disrespectful behavior toward you (this constantly picking up your phone and checking it) continues because you allow it to. Also the passive-aggressive stuff (joking with you one moment, going totally b*tchy on you the next).
She will begin to respect you once you begin to respect yourself -- no sooner.
Do you REALLY think this is "working"?? By what definition do you think it is working?
Puppy
Seriously guy, stop giving her your phone. You're driving yourself crazy with her yanking your chain.
Hey, let the record show that someone was more succinct than I was.
this. ^
Puppy
My apologies. I should have read through the entire post. I just caught my spousal projections here. Plus I know about puppies!
Hey!!!! 
Puppy
She treats me like dirt because I abused her for several years. I treated her like dirt.
And allowing that dysfunctional pattern to continue is going to help . . .
how? 
What are you suggesting PDT?
As far as DBing goes, when something that was working no longer works then I should try something different... I want to make sure when all is said and done I did everything and tried everything. One thing I have not tried yet is to give her even more space by staying some place else for a few days and what for her response but giving our history I am not sue if it will help any
I'm suggesting that her crappy, disrespectful behavior toward you (this constantly picking up your phone and checking it) continues because you allow it to.
The majority of the time she asks for the phone and I hand it over. I have nothing to hide. She is paranoid that I would stray (is that not a good thing? or else why would she care?). Other times my phone is just lying there and she picks it up, which I also have no problem with. It is NOT LIKE I hide my phone and she finds it or the phone is in my pocket and she grabs or the phone is in my hand and she snatches it.
If I stop her from viewing my phone, then she thinks I do have something to hide. If her EA with OM sprouts again or with a different male and I try to view her phone she will say "No, remember when you never let me look at you phone" and that "dysfunctional pattern" will continue. No TRUST will be established.
[QUOTE]Also the passive-aggressive stuff (joking with you one moment, going totally b*tchy on you the next).[QUOTE]
I will give an example:
W: WE should get ITEM for HOUSEHOLD that will BENEFIT us BOTH
Me thinking: Why would she want to get something for the for the house if she is leaving
Me: Sounds good what do YOU have in mind
W thinking: I think I just gave him the thought that I'm staying
W: Never mind, oh and as a reminder I'M LEAVING
Sure it sucks but the more she commits to doing things the more time we spend together which leads to more opportunity for me to put my changes on display.
The more we make our house a home, the more comfortable she feels to be there and hopefully increases her chances of staying.
Don't get me wrong, there are times where I did feel that she had DISRESPECTED me and I let that be known. Such as her down playing the EA and does not believe it to be WRONG that she shared our business with a co-work who is a male. I let her know how I felt about that.
I need to choose my battles wisely. Arguing about the way she feels or the fact she contradicts herself will only lead to more problems. I am then seen as controlling or jerk. In the past I would have left her stuff on the doorstep (and I had before). In the past I would had spoke over her and shut her feelings out completely (which lead to this and the EA). I don't see it as a pattern but more of repeat of what I did to her. A taste of my own medicine. For it to be a pattern would suggest that I would once again repeat my same old terrible behavior. If I maintain a positive energy hopefully it rubs off on her and her spirits start to rise. She is in a state of depression and wont seek professional help, I can't combat depression and reconcile a marriage with negativity.
Also from what I read on many threads some/most of this is "wayward script" and if I give into it than I defeat the purpose of my DBing efforts. This is how I feel but if you can convince me to see it in a different light, I am all for it "whatever works."
The majority of the time she asks for the phone and I hand it over. I have nothing to hide. She is paranoid that I would stray (is that not a good thing? or else why would she care?). Other times my phone is just lying there and she picks it up, which I also have no problem with. It is NOT LIKE I hide my phone and she finds it or the phone is in my pocket and she grabs or the phone is in my hand and she snatches it.
That's not the impression I've been left with as I've read your exchanges, and I've read all of them. Perhaps I'm wrong.
You seem to make a lot of excuses for your wife's poor and boorish behavior, in my opinion.
If I stop her from viewing my phone, then she thinks I do have something to hide.
That's her issue, not yours. I have no problem with a mutually-agreed-upon plan of MUTUAL TRANSPARENCY, but I don't think you should allow her to snatch it whenever she wants to -- online, detailed billing, with a copy of the billing going to her should suffice. The way she's doing it now is accusatory and disrespectful -- again, just my opinion, from what I read when you describe the exchanges.
Puppy
I need to choose my battles wisely. Arguing about the way she feels or the fact she contradicts herself will only lead to more problems. I am then seen as controlling or jerk. In the past I would have left her stuff on the doorstep (and I had before). In the past I would had spoke over her and shut her feelings out completely (which lead to this and the EA). I don't see it as a pattern but more of repeat of what I did to her. A taste of my own medicine. For it to be a pattern would suggest that I would once again repeat my same old terrible behavior. If I maintain a positive energy hopefully it rubs off on her and her spirits start to rise. She is in a state of depression and wont seek professional help, I can't combat depression and reconcile a marriage with negativity.
DISAGREE. You're quibbling over my use of the word "pattern." OK, so let me put it another way:
How is excusing and allowing her crap behavior toward you now, just because she allowed it from you towards her in the past, helping?I'm not suggesting "negativity." I'm suggesting positive, upbeat . . .
while maintaining reasonable boundaries about how she is allowed to treat you.
Puppy
Understood. I will maintain boundaries.
The phone issue is not as bad as it seems but I do follow you. I actually took it as a positive that she cares enough that she wanted to look at the phone. Assuming the emotion behind it was jealousy and the paranoia that I were to stray.
BTW thank you for reading a long and for all your input.
I'm suggesting that her crappy, disrespectful behavior toward you (this constantly picking up your phone and checking it) continues because you allow it to. Also the passive-aggressive stuff (joking with you one moment, going totally b*tchy on you the next).
She will begin to respect you once you begin to respect yourself -- no sooner.
Do you REALLY think this is "working"?? By what definition do you think it is working?
Puppy
I dunno PDT, I think his wife has clinical depression. I think a lot of the erratic hehaviuor is from depression here, particularly the cyncial negative commentary.
I don't know if you've had to deal with that, but getting aggressive doesn't impreove that situation.
If his wife is in pain from depression then her negativity isn't disrespectful as much as it is just a manifestation of how much she's struggling.
Right now with OIN's FIL prepping a new home for his wife I think OIN would do best to be as helpful and lovign as he can right now.. and she has shown good responses to that.
I really don't think her looking at his phone is a bad thing.. if that's what she needs to set her mind at ease then I would think just let her do it.
The key thing I think is OIN finding a solid family therapist and going. Once he sets that example open his wife may go.
Once his WIFE is with a professional that FT may reccomend treatment for depression. OIN's wife getting treatment for a possible chemical imbalance is in my opinion the most important goal here... not worrying over a phone or about negative outbursts... I think those are just symptoms.
This COULD be withdrawal from the emotional affair too.. it hasn't been that long and she did express frustration over that ending...
But with all the sleeping too I think is depression.. i have some experience with depression so its not hard for me to spot it when I read about it.
And yes OIN, being treated like crap for years and getting no recognition will cause a chemical imbalance in the brain making it very difficult to feel anything otehr than miserable... I am NOT saying you caused it... your wife should have spoken up more to warn you... she allowed you to disprespect her too... if she had spoken up more this may have been easier for both of you right now...
YOU should have been more respectful to her in the past, but so should she have... she let you treat her like dirt too... you both made the mess.
But right now getting her in to see someone for all of this is I think the key goal here... she CLEARLY WANTS to talk to someone...
I dunno PDT, I think his wife has clinical depression. I think a lot of the erratic hehaviuor is from depression here, particularly the cyncial negative commentary.
I don't know if you've had to deal with that, but getting aggressive doesn't impreove that situation.
Guess now it's MY day for people inferring something I never stated.
I never said to be "aggressive." I suggested that he
maintain BOUNDARIES -- an opinion that I stand by even if it should turn out that his wife is clinically depressed (and I happen to think she is).
Too much of modern psychology/psychiatry, in my opinion, is just so much "excusing poor behavior." I even started a thread on this recently, after George Will wrote a really good column about it.
Puppy
Don't get me wrong, there are times where I did feel that she had DISRESPECTED me and I let that be known. Such as her down playing the EA and does not believe it to be WRONG that she shared our business with a co-work who is a male. I let her know how I felt about that.
I need to choose my battles wisely. Arguing about the way she feels or the fact she contradicts herself will only lead to more problems. I am then seen as controlling or jerk. In the past I would have left her stuff on the doorstep (and I had before). In the past I would had spoke over her and shut her feelings out completely (which lead to this and the EA). I don't see it as a pattern but more of repeat of what I did to her. A taste of my own medicine. For it to be a pattern would suggest that I would once again repeat my same old terrible behavior. If I maintain a positive energy hopefully it rubs off on her and her spirits start to rise. She is in a state of depression and wont seek professional help, I can't combat depression and reconcile a marriage with negativity.
Also from what I read on many threads some/most of this is "wayward script" and if I give into it than I defeat the purpose of my DBing efforts. This is how I feel but if you can convince me to see it in a different light, I am all for it "whatever works."
I think your position here is very well put OIN. I am on side 100% here.
Guess now it's MY day for people inferring something I never stated.
I never said to be "aggressive." I suggested that he
maintain BOUNDARIES -- an opinion that I stand by even if it should turn out that his wife is clinically depressed (and I happen to think she is).
Too much of modern psychology/psychiatry, in my opinion, is just so much "excusing poor behavior." I even started a thread on this recently, after George Will wrote a really good column about it.
Puppy
If his wife weren't showing so many symptoms of a serious problem I would agree with you. But if there is depression I really think you gotta cut their behaviour some slack ... its just words. If you accept that its the depression talking then you can ignore it.
My wife has depression and she has really bad days where she can barely think straight... and yes, she can be verbally dismissive or even hurtful. I just IGNORE it. A few days later when its easier to deal she APOLOGIZES for it all. She KNOWS it isn't helpful but she also owns it later... So when I hear something hurtful from her I just take it as depression talking and I HELP her as much as I can.. I don't pick a fight...
I think OIN may do best to use this same strategy.
Wayward's DO get MEAN, thats part of the problem. It makes it VERY difficult to WANT them BACK when they act like jerks... But in OIN's case I agree with him... just let her take the phone and look at it... I suspect she's feeling anxious and uses the phone to settle her nerves.
My goal in posting here is to help OIN get her some professional help. I don't think his wife is just being rude for the heck of it.. particuarly given her history as being loving and kind this is very much out of her character. The sleeping all day, the emotional outbursts, the out of character behaviour... I think she needs treatment for depression.
I think MWD has a chapter in her book in that OIN if you want to have a look.
------------
Yes pup, I agree some people just use all of this as an excuse to be mean... I don't think this is the case here, not consciously at least.
I don't think this woman's nature is to be mean. I think this woman has a chemical imbalance and it isn't being treated.
Yup, but we can't make an accurate diagnosis here... His wife needs treatment for that.
Don't you think its best to err on the side of caution here and just let the words slide until we find out for sure?
You will regret it if we find out she does have depression... I know I would. So I am reccomending taking the hits for now... and I don't normally DO that right? Normally I Do advocate aggressively asserting boundaries... but there's no affair going on here to be worried about.. OIN put that to rest by showing up at OM's workplace. Just an angry wayward spouse... whom I think has depression.
I think OIN just needs to keep after that Family Therapist hunt and get his wife the help she needs... or at least the help I think she needs.
Just a thought here...OIN is your W doing her own 180's from how she would respond to you in the past?
If so, she may be acting the way she is because she THINKS she's getting a 'better' response from you (as in you being nicer/more understanding) than before.
Does she feel the 'need' to be b*tchy to get that 'nicer' response from you?
Therefore, the flip/flop attitude?
Did you make an issue of her sleeping patterns or shower habits in the past?
Just a thought....
I agree with Puppy.
Sounds to me like his W is going through the crazy phase that comes with the fog. My W was doing the same things. Slept alot, crazy mood swings, moral compass out the door. I believe she suffered from depression and I did everything like OIN did.
All it did was encourage her behavior. Depression is like alcoholism in that you don't know you have a problem until you admit you have a problem. "I am WAS and I have depression". His W says she is depressed, but isn't getting help for it. My W said the exact same thing and like his W, blamed her depression on the M when really it was herself.
OIN, you messed up on your part. That's understandable. We all did to a degree. I was like you and took a boatload of blame and shame. But there comes a time when rather than just taking all the blame, you start looking for solutions to heal. That's what you're doing now. Your W has to get to that point as well.
When I told my W enough was enough in terms of her blaming me for everything and that I had already apologized for in the past, she had two options: Either live with anger and resentment or heal and get a better life. When I stood up to her, she realized she had no one to blame for her ongoing "unhappiness" but herself.
My W still hasn't gone for help, but we get along 200% better than we did a year ago. I see bits of her old self coming back. It takes a looooong time. I've been in this for two years now. If you want to stay committed, good for you. You know that in your heart. Stand strong while she rages at you, but every now and then you use the truth to hold her accountable. The truth is what cuts through the depression. You state it matter of factly or in a way that lets her come up with her own conclusions.
I can sympathize with you because I'm in the same boat. And I tell you things do get better.
Its a tough place to be if W is indeed clinically depressed...my W is and has been since her teens...her meds were too high and she was very flat, ever since I knew her...now she's off her meds...
The difficulty is like you said, her possibly bouting w/ depression, withdrawal from Om, and typical WAW mentality...UGH!!
There is no real way to advise her to seek help for the depression...like Allen said, you MUST set the example of seeking IC/ FT and hopefully she will follow suit...maybe then she can address some of the depression.
I also agree, you mention alot about W sleeping- huge sign!
As for W's tests (and thats all they are) reg "oh lets get this...no wait I wont be here..."
Just cattiness and cruel- MEANT to get a rise out of you...so you can either be an ass or be a wimp and start begging...push-pull
You seem to handle it well, I give you credit. I wasnt at these boards when all that was going down in my own sitch...
I really think you're doing a great job and you're articulating and analyzing your behaviors very well
Thanks Jasper... you hit it there... there are so many variables here... I think the best thing to do here is let the hits roll of you and set an example for FT and hopefully she will get some treatment.
OK here it goes....
W wife slept in diff room than me last night. She slept on old couch then moved to old bed. This morning she walked out the room on the phone. Her father left her a voicemail that his girlfriend had to go in for emergency surgery due to a blood-clot in her head.
Me and my W went up to the hospital where we met up with her father. Her father was very upset nearly in tears and I knew it had a great affect on her as well. I was supportive. I offered FIL something to eat or drink I would run and get it. He declined because he was leaving.
Me and my W left. We went to grab a bite to eat and did a little shopping. We had a pretty descent time considering.
What I noticed was my W would look at something, smile and say "I'm going to get this" and I would reply "sounds good, it looks nice" and she would say " WELL IT MAKES ME HAPPY" so I would say "get it if it makes you happy."
We got home she showered and before I took off for work we watched a little TV together and shared some laughs (amer. Funny vids). For a brief moment it was like old times minus the ILY and affection.
My W is very stressed out with our situation. Her cousins passing (turns out he committed suicide) and now the pain her father is in due to his GF health. I too was pretty close to my FIL GF (closer than I am with my W mother).
My W did say a few times "as if I did not have enough going on in my life" I did say once "it will all work out, better days will come"
I went to work, while on duty I stopped in the hospital after hours and checked up on her. She was sleeping so I let her lay in peace.
I called my FIL let him know I checked up on her and that she was sleeping. He was thankful because he was at home worrying. He thought it was very nice of me. I told him "NP if you need anything, anything at all just call me or my W anytime or stop by our house the door is always open. Take care, we'll see you tomorrow" end of call.
To answer a couple questions...
- I am the reason for my W's depression. Sh told me countless times about how terrible I made her feel...I would shrug it off like an a-hole. She even said to me several times ali think I will be dead by the time I am 35 because of the stress you put on me" the bulb would go on and I treated her better but then slipped back into my old routine...
One more thing...my wife bought a ring because it makes her happy. She does not wear her wedding ring but she had worn this other wring today on her "wedding finger" any good I can take from that?
One thing you CAN do OIN is buy some flowers on each visit and leave them there with a card indicating you were the one dropping them off... even if she's sleeping, put flowers there with a card.
This is an excellent chance for you to show BOTH of them at the same time how supportive, open hearted, and generous you can be when it is really needed... this is a really great chance to give your wife and FIL some reassurance that you are a decent guy now...
I would visit every day and leave flowers every day.
Took your advice. Just dropped off flowers and a card. She is unable to open her eyes and cannot speak at the moment. My FIL will be up there tomorrow and my W plans on going after work.
On another note what are ur impressions of todays exchage?
I really don't know what to think.
My advice really is to try to focus on consistent behavior. If you see soemthing happen once or twice, I wouldnt put much stock in it... good or bad.
If you see something happen regularly or something stop for along time that I would consider something to focus on.
Today, I dunno... I would just keep a goin. I think you're doin good... Illness is a time to offer support to your family, when you drop off flowers and they come by and see those you will be doing quite well I think... its a chance to show them both at the same time that you give a damn.
Question...
Every Easter my wife and I would at the very least get a card for one another. My wife did not acknowledge our 10 year ann this past January nor did she acknowledge Valentines day. In the past she would had gone all out while I would treat it as "just another day."
So the question is do I get her a card?
My idea is to make the card from the dog. I was actually thinking of a homemade card from the dog which will show my effort and no pressure from me because its from the dog
Or should I just give her a card from me vut in a friendship level..
What you think?
Do the card for the dog, AND do things for the house. You can buy easter chocolates and put them on the dining table with a happy easter sign... and tell her if anyone comes over they are welcome to them.
You will have to gauge this on your own for the most part. If you do'nt think she will handle the card and gift well then do it for the dog... I wouldn't do anythign to indicate you are just friends, she will take that as you having given up on your marriage... You've been consistently (mostly save for a few setbacks) sending messages you love your marriage and want to save it.. if you give her a card saying 'we're just friends' it will be mixed messages.
This is what your WIFE does...sends mixers... If YOu stay consistent it helps you out.
Again you can always get something for the HOUSE that's easter related...
My idea is to make the card from the dog. I was actually thinking of a homemade card from the dog which will show my effort and no pressure from me because its from the dog
You
are kidding, right?
Absolutely not. My wife done the same for Christmas, she loves doing that. Before our other dog passed every year for my B-day she would make a card out from the dog to me. Sometimes she went as far as tracing the dog's paw lol.
So no I am not kidding....
If YOU think she will take that well then do it. Just remember one bad result is seven steps back. Don't throw dice.
If you are confident it will go over ok then do it... its your call you know her best. You are an intelligent dude, you will know best here.
Thanks Allen, i feel better doing that rather than get her nothing like I may have in the past or show pursuit by giving it from me.
Yup, divorce-busting is always a tightrope walk... I think you have figured that out already... its not fun in the short, term but it is rewarding.
At the VERY LEAST if you DO end up moving on and find someone else you will know HOW to LOVE by CHOICE and not just be following your impulses... 99% of people moving into a LT relationship and marriage just act on impulse. They love by impulse rather than by choice. And when the impulse is to act selfishly, they just revert to that instead... if you love by choice, there is no fallback.. you keep loving by choice every day for the rest of your life.. and its a great feeling.
I have come to realize this. I always thought no matter how good or bad things got or I got for that matter she was not going anywhere. Up till this all happened I had never seen my W as I do now....its a whole new outllok and whole new kind of love.
What you are seeing now is true love, not the nonsense romance you see in movies or weddings... actual WORK being done... It's an amazing thing to watch... and very hard to do on an emotional level.. every fibre of your being says "get out of there" but you fight anyways...
Quick update...
Dinner went pretty good. Her family (besides her father) has no idea as to the trouble our M is in so to them we are happy newlyweds. They asked us things like "how is the house coming along" "when you guys going on vacation again" things like that. We got along pretty good, laughing joking and collaborating on telling her family stories.
only up until the way home she got herself saying "we" immediately changed it to "you" and threw a few jabs at me implying she was leaving.
Earlier in the day my W told me her father told her how happy he was that I stopped at the hospital and called him after. When we left this evening he had said "I love you guys" to the both of us.
There was no mention of the flowers or card I had left there at the hospital
Just keep doin what you're doin... I think its your best chance OIN.... Just because he hasn't mentioned it didn't mean he didn't see them... You have to extend some trust in the process I'm afraid... and that's the most agonizing part of all of this...
OfficerInNeed,
You can always find ways to knock that OM off your wife. I discussed it in another thread.
Like if you could prove that the OM viewed the wife as just a piece of ass. This one could be hard to prove, but if he posted any conquests or pictures of your wife on the internet.
Another tactic that worked, and it wasn't to knock the OM off, but it usually did. If the OM has a wife or GF, you get your conclusive information to the wife or GF. You are not trying to pour salt on her relationship, more or less prevent one less fool from being out there. The side effect is that the Wife or GF will usually pour enough hell into the OM where the relationship is put in serious jeopardy.
If the OM and Wife work at the same job, they may be violating workplace ethics. The HR and the Boss off the OM would get the conclusive information and someone will be reprimanded.
Some state and department agencies don't want affairs as part of their image, so they will attack it if they see it going on.
I heard the FBI won't mind helping out someone if their wife is cheating on them with someone who is a member of another agency. The reason is, if they are doing this, they are probably getting in some sort of trouble.
Keep doing what your doing. You may knock that OM off your wife though, because as long as she spends that private fantasy with him, any defence or strengthening of yourself will be unfairly dismissed.
Its hard. I hope it all works out for you.
In my situation "they" convinced my wife that every nice guesture, every gift, every kind remark, every thing nice I did for her was a manipulation.... They manipulated her into thinking like them.
So just like you I'm going to end up doing a ton of work without expecting reciprocation, and thats just how its going to be. I have no idea why she wants to be this way.
I find your last remark very interesting...I no doubt agree. I havent heard so much but I know W and her friends/family well enough to be able to do some unhealthy mind reading.
Once the WAS has justified whatever they need to to involve OM, the LBS is severely disadvantaged and already demonized...thus ANY action is judged negatively...the positives are manipulations, the negative- justifications.
Terrible spot to be...as Robx would say- there are plenty of fish in the sea...sadly I am starting to realize this.
I have become more spiritual as a result of my sitch, W has become less so...I believe in M, W not so much...
My point is that OIN- as long as you're bettering yourself and setting a good example- "eff her"...the table is slanted and that's the way it is...doesnt make it impossible- just highly difficult.
I vaguely recall OM suggesting that she was possibly "talking to someone else..."- thats exactly what happened in my sitch...better yourself for you and someone (W or someone else) will benefit.
I just told a friend to eff off b/c she tells me the same shirt...none of us will give up until we're ready...be proud OIN
and do keep up the positives w/ regard to the sick GF- VERY IMPORTANT and VERY KIND of you
Just spoke with my friend, he said according to OM my wife has backed off...my friend has confirmed that OM did switch his days so he and my W are not as often.
My friend tells me that the female co-worker my W talks to who cheats on her husband told my friend the following
Female "how is the situation going?"
Friend "I don't know I don't talk to anyone about it anymore because his W thinks I go back and tell him"
Female " yeah she said that, she can't talk to OM cause your watching. You know I thought she was like me... Married to a cop who beats her and treats her terrible but I am beginning to realize she is not telling the truth about things...I believe you more than I do her at this poibt"
As for today my W went to work then went to the hospital where I unexpected made an appearance with some flowers. We left together, get homee then W sleeps the whol day and then I left for work...
This is excellent stuff here OIN.
I know they may not mention the flowers, but you gotta trust that they have impact... your wife is angry, saying thank you or acknowledging any good thing you do is NOT easy for her right now. No matter how much you impress her she's gonna ignore it.
If you want to see this sort of thing in action just rent the film Fireproof. It's a christian film, but you can ignore that part if you aren't christian... its still worth watching.. the acting aint' that great, but as a d-busting instructional tool its A+ stuff. Do NOT show it to your wife.
As your wife talks on and on and can't show a bruise or anything they will start to doubt her stories...
If it woudln' backfire on you, you could always have flowers sent to her workplace for her.. women love being persued publically like that... its flattering to them.
But she will likley be angry right now over it, so save that until you think it will hit home.
Don't worry much about what people at her work have to say... most of them just mind their own business anyhow...
It sounds like people are already starting to doubt her.
I think you're doin a great job, just keep er up
OfficerInNeed,
Like if you could prove that the OM viewed the wife as just a piece of ass. This one could be hard to prove, but if he posted any conquests or pictures of your wife on the internet.
In my case this worked HUGE - OM W sent me a text from OM stating he wanted to work it out with his W and that my W and ANOTHER woman meant nothing to him...which i showed my W.
My W = piece of ass to him (talk about a fog clearer)
but anywho OIN - sounds like you are doing well, keep at it.
Hey gman!
Yes OIN, if you could get that it would help, but it sounds like OM is backing off anyhow. It would be nice to burst that bubble to your wife so she doen'st keep thinking he was some great friend, but I don't know how much you can get on that end.... your wife doens't realized you just saved her from making a huge mistake...
D-busting is a thankless enterprise until you finish... thankless
Allen,
Its funny you mention fireproof. I had went to church yesterday and it was recommended. Also my therapist recommended the same. A person from the church gave me that they thought was the full length movie but turned out to be not. I have been reading the book "love dare" I am on day 6...most of what is suggest I have already done or have been doing. The book itself has a lot of what has been shared on these forums.
I had tried the flowers being sent to work back on feb. 13th. She said thank you but was upset because she is not about that. She told me that co-workers reacted with "awwwwwe how sweet" and a male co-worker said "I admired that" but to her not so much.
Something that I considered positive my W is no longer doing. For about Z years now my wife had always text msg me as she went from place to place toi ensure she was ok. It was "our little thing" even up till the past week she had done this but now she is slowly stopping...
It baffles me. When this all began my wife still gave me hugs, kisses, ILY and things were at there worse but now things are so much better than they were 4-5 weeks ago but she does none of that.
I have to admit at times my mind tells me "I don't think she love me anymore and she is not the same person I love. This stuff is not working, I'm just prolonging the inevitable." But of course I keep on hoping that I am having an impact and one day she'll see the light.
OIN,
I'd keep doing the flowers bit, and maybe some gifts to work. Perhaps 3 times a month if you can afford. Its interesting that the peer group will see your effort and sincerity. I believe over time it can be a "fog clearer", because her peer group will obviously see the guesture and she will have to do her mental magic to make herself think its irrevelent or a manipulation. Over time the reality should start to winning out.
Also I would occasionally invite her to lunch dates.
Keep doing everything else your doing, sounds good and it gives me motivation in my situation.
By the way, we all usually feel the same way like the effort will not work. What has been given to us is principles that work over time, so if there is a chance it is through these methods.
I dunno about any lunch invitations OIN. You will have to gauge that carefully... if she is caught on the wrong moment it will set you back.. tread lightly.
I woudln't send flowers to work right now either. Given the stories she's passing around it may look like you are trying to apologize for being the person she is spinning. We know she's lying, but if people see flowers she may just do this :
"See... Now he thinks he can heal my bruiss with flowers... What an a$$"
Be VERY careful before you send flowers, that too can backfire... you need to know its goign to be received well first.
I don't reccomend experimenting overmuch at work just yet.
Allen,
Scarey how things can be spun, good information. I did a couple of years where your worried about "repurcussions" and "counter-repurcussions", and worried about how potential outer image depending on the group.
Crazy stuff I tell you. Sounds like your saying that OIN just needs to lay back and do what he's doing.
My W nearly pulled me into an argument...
When my W first return home from work she told me she was going to a benefit for a co-worker that was diagnosed with cancer. When she first mentioned I said nothing but was waiting for the right time to ask if I could go as well...
Later in the afternoon after having a pretty good day together...I asked mys W "about that benefit, would you mind if I accompanied you to the event, It is for a great cause and I would like to support it. Even if not I would still like to buy a ticket."
My W responds "I did not thinlk you would want to go"
Me : "of course I would. it's always good to get out and attend functions. And enjoy doing such thongs with you"
W: "well its invitation only and I already rsvp with just 1 on the invite."
Me: "is it possible to change that? I would like to attend. If not I can just ask 'friend' to add me on his invite"
W: "well I planned on going with the women from work"
Here is where I lost my cool...still in a calm tone.
Me: "that's ok, I get the point. You don't want me there and that is fine I understand."
W: "you are unbelievable"
Me: "did I say something to upset you?"
And she just laughed an had a terrible look on her face. Me reakizing this was heading nowhere fast I just shut my nmouth and carried on. I went to lay in bed and she yelled up to me "where are you? What are you doing?" I replied "laying in bed" she asks "why?' I say "relaxing before work" she said with and attitude "NM"
I go down and ask her if she needed something she said "I thought maybe you wanted to color easter eggs" lol...threw me off. It was a tradition of ours that she blew off this year but a day after she wanted to do it. Of course I was more than happy to do it. We had a good time. Then I went off to work.
Actually your W didn't pull you into an argument, you kind of sounded like you were inviting one. If she didn't invite you , you shouldn't have tried to get yourself invited. Once maybe, but it seemed like you kept pushing the issue.
"Me: "that's ok, I get the point. You don't want me there and that is fine I understand."
Bad move. Your feelings were hurt and you showed it. Next time just shrug it off.
Mr Bond I couldn't agree more... that's exactly what I was thinking as I read OIN's thread... before I even read your reply
OIN, I KNOW its hard, but you push yourself back when you do this.
Your wife did throw you a bone afterwards. I suspect she sensed that she hurt your feelings and wanted to apologize... THAT is a good sign, but you need to control yourself... I think you could have handled it better, but your WIFE actually saved that moment not you!
YOU are supposed to be divorce-busting, not your wife man lol
IF she says she's giong to a benefit
1. you offer to buy a ticket for a donation ONLY
2. you tell her if she would like your company, you would enjoy going along, but you want her to make her choice freely
3. You do NOT go around that and SNEAK in with a buddy either.. that's underhanded and she will see that as you controlling her... again
4. you do NOT POUT... you accept her choice and smile... as long as she is not putting your marriage at RISK or herself at RISK then you let it go... she's not going to a singles bar, its just a benefit dude...
You DID walk out of there before it got really bad, but man you set HER up for a fight... not the other way around...
If she does something that excludes you, you just tell her you are available and leave it alone.
Good to see she threw you a bone though.. that's a positive
But you gotta control yourself dude... control YOU, not her... YOU
OK?
I suppopse maybe you were thinking OM might be there or something... but if he changed shifts I think you may want to back off a bit on that.. the more Om backs off, the more YOU need to back off..
Not sure what prompted you to fight for a spot at this thing, but I doubt you think it was worth pushing her at this point...
She threw you a bone, I think you need to buy her some flowers and tell her to just go and have a good time and that you are sorry you pushed her.
Tell her you love her, and want to be NEAR her, but without her RESPECT, her love is isn't worth it...
You give her a hug and tell her to have a great time... and let it go.
Let me ask you this.. its been a while with you posting here... can you see how your wife might feel you are trying to control her over much?
Now, I get that being married means negotiating, and that to a degree, you own each other... emotionally you are bonded and all that... so a sense of being controlled comes with the package.. but that CAN get excessive and it can cause a spouse to feel pressure they don't want.
Some spouses feel like they don't matter, like the spouse is INDIFFERENT, others like you, may be going the other way and push TOO hard...
I am gonna leave it to you to sort that question out. But if you read your post again and look carefully I hope you can see how you may have tried to control that situation...
If THAT is what you were doing for the last ten years... dude, THAT is EXACTLY what you need to put a STOP TO... right away...
When you do that, you sign your wife's apartment lease FOR her doin that... I really hope you can see it in your post... go look at it...
... I said nothing but was waiting for the right time to ask if I could go as well...
So you could go
pursue her? How is you steering yourself into this benefit making you out to be the man she wants to stay with?
I re-read my post and pretty much thought about it since it happened and you are right. I picked that fight not even knowing it.
Yes the thought of OM being there did cross my mind. I wanted to go because in the past I would not have went and I more than likely would have prevented her from going (in the past). I was caught off guard that she had made that decision to go and never ran it by me or invited me along. By going I would have accomplished the following
- support something she supports (180)
- opportunity to spend time with her in a social setting
- show her co-workers first hand, that I am not a bad guy and get the opportunity to meet those she works with as she did with my co-workers.
I don't think she would respond very well to me telling her I love her. Is that not pressuring her? I CAN say it without getting those words in return because I DO LOVE HER but I think it will only prompt her to tell me she is leaving. I feel I have not DB consistently enough or long enough to start telling her these things. She also will NOT take kindly to the flowers.
Also hugging her would probably make her feel uncomfortable. It's though to lay in same bed at night or sit on same couch as her so actually giving a hug might turn her away. I would love to but I don't know....
You apologize in whatever way you can work it out... but I really think she saw you controlling her there... heck I saw it in your post.. she was in the ROOM... I doubt she missed it at all.
- support something she supports (180)
Do that without pursuit. Remember the idea... show her you are a good guy without pressuring her to see you directly
- opportunity to spend time with her in a social setting
Again you gotta take what she gives you and otherwise back off.. particulary with a history of love-control or whatever it was in the past... you gotta find a way to accept the time she gives you and accept the time she wants alone...
Why don't you just go to her work and take your buddy there out to lunch? that makes YOU look social but it doesn't get in your wife's face at ALL. She won't like it, but we can work on that later... it may be worth the cost there... if you play it cool enough... do NOT look for her when you are at the building, do NOT ask for her... don't even mention her... just show up to talk to your friend and then go to lunch... i think she will be ok with it
- show her co-workers first hand, that I am not a bad guy and get the opportunity to meet those she works with as she did with my co-workers.
see above. But bear in mind you can't force yourself on her or these people.. she will introduce them when she's got some respect back for you... you gotta trust that
Just keep up with the ones at her work that you DO know now and let the rest just happen on its own time... don't force it
Since you have a police background I am gonna go this route :
Did you get any training in how to negotiate or work with people on the street or anything.. people who likely don't want to deal with you at all?
What or how did they train you to work with people who don't want to cooperate with you? I suspect they offer some sort of training on this sorta thing nowadays.
That may help you understand this a bit better. I doubt they tell you to strongarm people into working with you... unless they get violent I believe you have to keep negotiating right?
Your in a [censored] up spot, not impossible, but she wants it difficult for you. Many of us know where you are at, and the answers are not easy.
Sometimes there is an outside influence thats always going to be there, and its why they can't listen to us. Many of us can't accept this for the long haul.
My W thinks my friend at her workplace is my spy. Therefore she does not like him anymore. So if she sees or hears that I was talking to him she will automatically assume it was so he can tell me what's going on there.
You don't want to know how this department operates lol...but I get what you are saying.
My intentions were not to be controlling but I can certainly see where I came across as such. If I a apologize at this point it will rehash it and put her in a bad mood. I feel the best way to get past this (what happened earlier) is react more positive and supportive if it comes up again and create enough positive to overcome this negative
OIN,
Does that friend in her workplace help you out?
What I was getting at is say the wife is a "feminist", but holding down a marraige for appearance, or a special agency, or some sort of "sorority", or whatever.
That she's going to keep the outer image, but they will keep an eye on you and passing gossip to get her to move the way they want. If you realize it, you can accept it and act accordingly or leave.
I think your really going to man up off this in a positive way, and not an angered way. A man who is immune to the bullshit and really does come to a lady that is supposed to be his in the best way possible. IE: a lady who chooses to be with you is having a huge advantage from being with a man like yourself.
That the people who do keep trying to make the appearance, will even look crazy to their self!!! Due to your prominance and positivity.
I'm going to keep watching this post. I would like to know more about this department operates.
In the last several years, I have ran through a few groups that are doing mudsling on a entirely different level.
Since you have a police background I am gonna go this route :
Did you get any training in how to negotiate or work with people on the street or anything.. people who likely don't want to deal with you at all?
What or how did they train you to work with people who don't want to cooperate with you? I suspect they offer some sort of training on this sorta thing nowadays.
That may help you understand this a bit better. I doubt they tell you to strongarm people into working with you... unless they get violent I believe you have to keep negotiating right?
Allan A,
Do you have any references for the example your talking about. IE: working with people who definately don't want to work with you but making inroads due to negotation.
Not sure what you mean? I am not a policeman so I can't make references specific that would be training for a cop.
If you just want books that teach negotiation there are a few good ones out there.
Getting to Yes was published in 1981 and its a classic.. still in print after 30 years...
There are others, specifically for dealing with difficult people and such... But GTY is a great start for negotiation books.
Just watched "Fireproof" and what a great movie. So much in there relates to my situation...
I wanted to start doing the "love dare" even though I have done most dares already.
As for today my W came home from work early she walked in the bedroom as I was sleeping and said "just wanted to let you know I am home" she then grabbed her pillow and went and laid down in a separate room. I said nothing and did not bother her.
I eventual got up and started to clean the house. My W woke up and at one point I said to her I was thinking about going somewhere and if she would like to join, she actually nodded yes rather than shoulder shrug.
We went out and for the most part she was cold and quite.... And that is pretty much how today is going her being distant.
I thought maybe I would give the "love dare" a shot.
I honestly think most of the LD stuff is pursuit... THINK through the LD and ask yourself how YOUR wife woudl respond... never mind how HIS wife responded... that's a MOVIE... its good for reference and allows you to see the importance of patience and love for love's sake, not because you are getting something out of it... but the actual TIMING and CHOICES of the acts he performs for her aren't necessarily constructive.
And his WIFE has much more constructive people around her than your wife does right now. I know she was having an EA, but her parents weren't telling her to LEAVE you and bulding her an apartment...
You gotta be careful with your choices... cleaning the house and doing laundry is one thing, even making a dinner, but buying flowers and gifts may be too much
M
Agreed. After reading ahead I can see where it would not go so well for me. The insight on love and marriage are good but the actions how to express that love, in my current state, are not ideal.
I actually have to sit down and once again revise my goals. I am having trouble setting obtainable goals that will allow me to validate is something is or is not working.
As I mentioned in previous posts what once work now does not. Some things that improved are now reverting back.
Btw would it be pursuit or a bad idea to watch fireproof with the W? Lol
Btw would it be pursuit or a bad idea to watch fireproof with the W? Lol
No comment needed there. lol
Question unrelated to your situation, but being in the business I would like to know how you would handle this if you got a call and you were on duty :
Passenger, a poster on another thread, exposed her husband's affair. He has been chasing her in email and phone calls all day long while she was at work trying to find out who she told about his affair. She refused to talk to him and told him she would talk later on... she went outside to her car after work and ...
He was waiting for me in my car when I got out of work-he even took the fuse out of the car so I couldn't start it
I would like to know how you would handle this if you got the call... ?
Here's the thread if you wanted to reply to her directly.. I am just in shock.. I would have called the cops on him for that stunt
I just wonder how a cop would have handled it
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1968725&page=29It would be nice to see your thoughts on it
It would depend on the state which the incident occurred to determine the course of action. Also it would had come down to whether or not she wanted anything legally done as a result of his actions. In our state, from what you described, would amount to 4 separate criminal charges, all of which would require for her to file as a complainant for any action to take place.
If he was registered owner of the vehicle then nothing can be done about him being in the vehicle or removing the fuse. This would be something where I would had to gather all facts first before making a decision...and even then ultimately the decision is hers (unless he ever physically abused her)
OK, well I would reccomend you post there and let her know how offensive this was legally speaking.. it is her car, she owns it. I don't think she's aware he was actually violating the law doing that.
OIM- my W wanted to watch Fireproof w/ me- it was still pusuit...she was BSing me...
Fireproof would be for when there is more committment from W...once that happens, books like 5LL and Love Dare will make more sense...you can brush up on 5LL and toy around w/ the diff LL to see what may get more results...affection and PT may be out, but the others may work if attempted in small doses.
Hang in there, I know its not easy...how's PMA and detaching?
Well I don't hang on my W words and emotion as much as I use to. If she is being positive great if she decides to become bitter I just step back abd let her go through the mood.
Tonight (after my last update) I had went and laid in bed. W yelled up to me "what are you doing" I say "laying in bed" and she responds "I thought we were going to watch a movie?"
So I popped up and went and put a movie on. We watched the movie and had a few laughs...after she fell to sleep on the couch.
Sometimes I feel like no progress is being made from day to day and when a positive it is usually followed by a few negatives. It almost feels like I we won't ever get to the point of reconcile, the way she is toward me is not promising...
As for the love dare the first 3 days have helped me mentally...that love is a decision and to love someone does not need reward in return. I also have bit my tongue more often not making the same mistake I made a couple days ago.
At least your watching TV together. This is a start.
I'd keep doing the flowers bit, and maybe some gifts to work. Perhaps 3 times a month if you can afford. Its interesting that the peer group will see your effort and sincerity. I believe over time it can be a "fog clearer", because her peer group will obviously see the guesture and she will have to do her mental magic to make herself think its irrevelent or a manipulation. Over time the reality should start to winning out.
I strongly disagree and "wearing her down" is some men's idea of "winning out". That is why some can't get it through their head's to stop R talks.......or buying gifts. She doesn't like it! She doesn't like the attention it brings at the office and there are always questions from other women and believe you me, she will take it out on her H.
I'd keep doing the flowers bit, and maybe some gifts to work. Perhaps 3 times a month if you can afford. Its interesting that the peer group will see your effort and sincerity. I believe over time it can be a "fog clearer", because her peer group will obviously see the guesture and she will have to do her mental magic to make herself think its irrevelent or a manipulation. Over time the reality should start to winning out.
I strongly disagree and "wearing her down" is some men's idea of "winning out". That is why some can't get it through their head's to stop R talks.......or buying gifts. She doesn't like it! She doesn't like the attention it brings at the office and there are always questions from other women and believe you me, she will take it out on her H.
I was not bringing her flowers but rather her father GF who had brain surgery. I learned many weeks ago not to buy gifts fir my W and not to offer to pay for something, it is considered controlling and takes away her sense of independence. I can't remember the last I spoke about our R with my W.
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This morning my W tried to start an argument but I bit my tongue. I had washed clothes which included her work uniform. She made the comment "great my pants sat in the dryer too long, mext time I'll do it myself, get them out myself" and I said nothing and just let it go.
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This morning my W tried to start an argument but I bit my tongue. I had washed clothes which included her work uniform. She made the comment "great my pants sat in the dryer too long, mext time I'll do it myself, get them out myself" and I said nothing and just let it go.
That's exactly the kind of rude disrespect I think you need to call her on, when it happens.
I don't care WHAT her psychological issues are, appeasement just is never a good strategy.
Puppy
I'd keep doing the flowers bit, and maybe some gifts to work. Perhaps 3 times a month if you can afford. Its interesting that the peer group will see your effort and sincerity. I believe over time it can be a "fog clearer", because her peer group will obviously see the guesture and she will have to do her mental magic to make herself think its irrevelent or a manipulation. Over time the reality should start to winning out.
I strongly disagree and "wearing her down" is some men's idea of "winning out". That is why some can't get it through their head's to stop R talks.......or buying gifts. She doesn't like it! She doesn't like the attention it brings at the office and there are always questions from other women and believe you me, she will take it out on her H.
I was not bringing her flowers but rather her father GF who had brain surgery. I learned many weeks ago not to buy gifts fir my W and not to offer to pay for something, it is considered controlling and takes away her sense of independence. I can't remember the last I spoke about our R with my W.
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This morning my W tried to start an argument but I bit my tongue. I had washed clothes which included her work uniform. She made the comment "great my pants sat in the dryer too long, mext time I'll do it myself, get them out myself" and I said nothing and just let it go.
Thats not straightforward, I know most of us would prefer to have a positive situation where you do nice things such as gifts every once in a while, and it has nothing to do with "power" or control.
I know most of us would prefer to have a positive situation where you do nice things such as gifts every once in a while
We must be discussing two separate things. OIN took flowers to the lady in the hospital (which is not his W) and unless he is using that as some avenue to kiss a$$, then it has nothing to do with what I am talking about. But, sending flowers to a WAW two or three times a week is certainly not something a LBH should do.
I know most of us would prefer to have a positive situation where you do nice things such as gifts every once in a while,
Most of us would prefer to have a positive situation.....period. But with a WAW, it is not one.
and it has nothing to do with "power" or control.
In some cases it might be seen as one trying to control, but in a MR it is seen by the WAS as very pursuing. That was why I did not agree with that line of thinking.
sandi2,
Agreeing with you in that in a WAW situation, WAW will usually withdraw more when you do "nice" or "positive" guestures.
I wish it wasn't this way. Is there anything else you can do other than a 180 in this case to regroup yourself?
Perhaps non-verbal communication, or how you spend your time may let them look at it in a different light?
The reality appears that we 180 to protect ourself, perhaps Affair Burst, but rely on LUCK that the spouse would like to come back home and take responsibility for what they have done and show a renewed committment.
I made a little lunch and prepared my W a plate. When she returned home from work the food was nice warm and she was just about to make herself something to eat and noticed the plate there and asked with a slight smile "Is that mine" and I replied "yes." She said thank you in a sincere way. I walked out the room and looked back over my shoulder slightly and my W just stared at me as if it was a thoughtful thing I had just done for her.
After and even up till now we had a pretty good exchange of words. Thinking back on those conversations so far today I can't remember a moment where she was cold toward me or gave me a mean/dirty look. Obviously she is not affectionate or "loving" but I'll take it.
There were a couple times where I had walked up stairs and both times she either called for me or came up to see what I was doing. She just decided to go to sleep so... I don't think we'll have much of any exchange for the rest of the day. She did however say she would be interested in doing something tomorrow.
This is all good, just avoid pursuit.
The goal here from your posts is that ulitmately you want HER persuing YOU.
As long as you are chasing her, she's not going to move a muscle.
Even longigng looks at her is pursuit... be VERY careful with those.. it can be STRESSFUL from her position to have someone gaze at her like that...
But this is all good. It makes no sense why she would want to do something together if she's just "counting the days" so you can take this as evidence that she's reconsidering.
Well about the "doing something"...
I had said "I was thinking about going to 'place' you want to go?" She then replied "I'll think about it" then when she went into bed I knew that was the day so I wanted to make sure she was not set on going before I went myself so I asked "are you interested in going?" She said "not today but tomorrow we'll go there and do other stuff"
I know what you mean by pursuit and I am doing my best not to come across as such but I made the gesture today because I want her to know or feel as if I am a good guy. Release some of the tension. I have seen signs of pursuit on her part pretty much if I go to opposite level of the house as her she is asking what am I doing. Ultimately, yes, I want her to want to be with me and start to pursuit me and our M/R
I have seen signs of pursuit on her part pretty much if I go to opposite level of the house as her she is asking what am I doing.
OK, so this kinda dismisses the earlier concern you had that emotinal distance on your part is a turn off... it looks like it HELPS
I say keep up the kind actions. I DO think that puts a HUGE dent in her feelings of leaving. Making the lunches for the two of you and such... she wont say thank you but her internalizing reconsiering her wanting to leave is a thank you enough... she is showing signs you have her thinknig about this more...
She woudl'nt volunteer to go places with you if she was "counting the days".. but obvously don't call her on that
If you said something like "I thought you were counting the days.. NOW you want to go places with me?... Car to explain this contradiction?"
SHe would BOLT if you tried that stunt.
Just accept that what she SAYs isnt' what she's DOING.. she's ACTING as if he's exploring reconcilliation... ignore the thrats and focus on what she's doing.
The thing is Allen, through-out this entire sitch we have still done things with each other, such as the concerts, shopping, movies ect...but all along she would say "I'm still leaving" "just co-existing" and that is where I have been so confused. I mean look at what happened this past thursday if you go back to that post, she wanted to go do something and get something for the house then when I asked where she wanted to go look she turned it around as if she never said such and asked me how I was going to handle the mortgage after she left?.... So I don't know
My read of this is that she's just testing you, and mayby subconsciously trying to put you through some of the turmoil she went through.
No its not constructive, but WS's aren't known for being constructive... they basically put the work in your lap and they go off to brood.
I think you need to read the subtext rather than focus on the threat... what i am hearing is that she's still scared, still doesnt' trust you, and is still hurt.
THAT is understandable. MWD said in her DR book that a ROUGH estimate of D-busting time is one month for every YEAR you were together.. so you may have to deal with up to ten months of this... are you up for it?
I am certainly up for the task. I have never felt this way about her and I have so much to give and I hope its not "too little too late."
Marriage has never meant so much to me. I did so much damage to our R and I am willing to endure hell to reconcile...and have endurer as much so far but I keep going
Make her lunch dinner ect is something I did everyday when this all began but I stopped because it was considered pursuit. This is also when the EA had first started and reached its peak...
Also I spoke with my friend today he said in the past couple days my W spoke to him....she was upset with him because she knew or felt he was watching and telling me. She is at the point, or at least I feel, she is communicating with him without grudge
THe lunch thing just needs some creativity.
1. You can make leftovers and tell her it was going to spoil.
2. You can make yourself AND her both a lunch and tell her you already had everythign open so...
3. Just make the lunch and leave it for her, telling her you had the time and she is welcome to it if she wants
These are NOT something all that pushy... I think if you get creative like this tehre is room for you to squeeze soemthing in... just dont' make HER a lunch ONLY... hold it out to her in your hand and ask her if she waould like it.. THAT is pursuit definitely...
I DO think using the imagination is an important part of d-busting.. you need to think creatively is all...
Always cross check your plan though to make sure you aren't pursuing
You two have the patience of Job, lol.
Patience is key.
Granted we have come so far. Looking back to when this first began, especially weeks 3-5, my W was harsh, bitter and cold toward me. Everything I did or said was wrong and for whatever the reason may be she calmed down a lot. But...
I need help with goal setting. To know that the changes I see in my W are good and not just her giving up entirely to the point where it does not matter anymore. I had set goals before but maybe not obtainable ones... If I post goals can someone help revise them to b alittle more obtainable and DB worthy?
This morning my W and I had the following discussion. We had once thought about, when the tome came, that we would breed our dog. Our dog has reached that age where we have to make the decision to breed or spade. My W said the following
W: we really need to think about whether or not we are going to breed or spade her
Me: well, is that a task you are up for to handle and care for a litter?
W: honestly, if you are going to keep her when I leave than that is up to you.
Me: then no.
End of conversation because I walked away.
Here is the story behind this and let me apologize a head of time to those who have sitches with children involved, please take no offense to this. This is our sitch and what is important to us.
My W had made it very clear many times during our sitch that when she left all she wants is wat belongs to her and the dog. She bought the dog as a gift for the "family" this past christmas so everything is in her name therefore "her dog" and that is all she wants. Now she asks me this question today and tells me it is up to me if I decided to keep the dog?? There is no way she would leave and not take the dog with her so I am going to have to assume she was just trying to throw a shot at me....
OIN you need to learn to appreciate the "shots" she's throwing at you ask cries for HELP and her desperately telling you how MISERABLE she is.
The focus should be on HER when she does this, not how YOU feel about words like that. I am sure you took your fair share of shots at her too... you need to set an example by just ignoring them... yes she wants to hurt you... so what are you gonna do about it?
-----------------
W: we really need to think about whether or not we are going to breed or spade her
Me: I would love for us to do something like that, I would be happy to help in any way I can. It sounds like fun. Thank you again for bringing her into our home.
--------------------
W: honestly, if you are going to keep her when I leave than that is up to you.
Me: If you decide to leave then we have a lot of painful decisions we have to make. Each day with you I am thinking more and more it is giong to be as painful to undo a marriage as it would be to repair it. I am seeing a famliy therapist, so the ball's really in your court there.
(pause)
Thank you again for bringing her into our home, I really love this dog.
And THEN you walk away...
Long story short, I just ruined any chance of reconcile....
Uh oh
Lets find out what happend and see if we can do some damage control...
OIN,
what happened? Never say you 'ruined' anything. You have been on this board day in and day out trying to improve yourself from the man that you were. You haven't 'ruined' anything. Calm down and please explain. We all make mistakes but they aren't REALLY mistakes. We are all trying to love our spouses through the rough and bad times. So mistakes are just that. No one is perfect.
After this morning we went up to the hospital for a visit. We were met there by my W father. He asked if we had anything planned for today and we should (my W and I) take a ride together somewhere.
My W and I left and we went for a bite to eat then walked around the mall. My W is not into the facebook thing but does have a facebook account. OMW sister had left my W a message on there with many threats. The message was dated a few weeks back but this was the first time my W had seen it. It instantly put her in a bad mood which I tried to calm her from but was not working. My W had told me not to delete the message...and I said "I won't, I would not do that to you" she said "Cause I want to save it." and stupid me said "Why so you can show OM?" and my W got upset, understandably.
When we got in the car my W read the entire message and said something along the lines of "I usually don't hate people without knowing them first but I HATE OMW. She does not know me and she all she does is disrespect me" and I said "do you not ever think that maybe these people feel disrespected by you?"
My W got VERY upset and said "OK, I see whose side your taking." I said "Your my W I will support you and only you" and she replies "That does not matter."
I said "All I am saying in everyone involved got disrespect and their feelings hurt from this whole situation so please don't feel like your the only victim" and of course that made it even worse.
We get home, my W asked if I can go get the laptop and I said yes, but I had to clean up a little mess the dog made first. While doing so she went and grabbed the laptop herself saying something under hear breath as she walked away. My W hooked the printer up and I asked "Your not going to print that out are you?" and she said "Yes." My W wanted documentation just in case OMW and sister did live up to their words which I understand. My W thought I had a problem with that and got even more upset.
I was digging myself into a deeper hole and getting upset myself. I wanted to say so much but all I could say at the time but I would open my mouth stop and say "never mind it does not matter" and more W would say "No say what you gotta say, tell me how you feel" and went I started to she would cut me off and say "does not matter anyway." I told my W I realized what a terrible person I was and I needed to change not just for our marriage but for me as well. I needed a new outlook on life. My W said she would NEVER forgive me for what I done. I said in return, I know you say that and I hope one day you will be until then I need forgiveness from God, so I could forgive myself and hopefully one day you will too. She made it bvery clear that one day will never come.
My W then started to say how this marriage will be over soon. She is happy I am making changes but she does not see them and that she is trying to find happiness herself. She said her first step to happiness is when she leaves and never sees me again and her name is changed. I said in response "If that is what would really make you happy, understand I don't want this, but I will leave here now and give you that happiness" she said "no it is your house because I don't want it. I have my room and you have yours." She continues to say some harsh things and it got the very best of me and she had something that set me off so much that I said "So what you can move on and F OM?" I could not believe I said that......she was furious. she then said "YOu know what? that right there proves you DID NOT CHANGE" that you are the same person you always where.
My W then proceeded to say how everything I had done up to this point was a front.
My W eventually walked away and said something. I sat my phone down and she picked it up and opened the browser where she discovered this site. And started to read one of my posts. I felt that it would only make matters worse so I took the phone from her. I said "I am sorry. I have nothing to hide but if you read this you will understand how I truly feel about you and this marriage and you will more than likely get more upset" and she said "whatever it does not matter" I don't know what she thought it was but she said "I will assume then, just like you always use to do"
She told me it was all pointless that there is nothing I could do to save this marriage. I told her that "just because you say you don't love me anymore or want to be with me does not mean that I don't love you or want this marriage to work. It is very important to me. I will keep working on this marriage until there is no more hope." She told me there is no hope and I will soon learn that once she leaves and I will never see her again and asked "what are you going to do then?"
She closed the door on me...I tried to justify my earlier comment about OM. Sure it was something that lingered in the back of my mind since it all began if it had got physical and I had some evidence to ASSUME it did but could never know for certain. My W would not listen and said "Any chance that there may have been is now GONE with that comment" and when she came out I tried once again to explain to her what lead me to say that and she said "I am trying to relax, and you just making me more upset" and here we are now....
WOW the day was going descent and I just destroyed my W for a second time. I am sure there are some details I left out, just trying to think clearly.
I don't know what my next step should be...go a head with the proceedings? go Dark in a sense? I don't know.
OIN,
You're not in the wrong here. Sometimes we say speaking to the WAS is like talking to an "alien". Whats funny is that from the conversation you described, she's out with OM and wants you to do all the changing. Not fair at all is it?
I'd continue what you've been doing, obviously don't get into another conversation this deep. It will not make any sense at all.
Take care of yourself, find activities outside of the house that you like to do. Going to the gym will help your mood out, and keep you from getting depressed. Be seen by the opposite sex.
We all know where you are at, and it sucks. I don't like that you want to openly discuss with her, and she believes that you needed to change.
It sounded like you where always a fair and loving guy to her from your discussions. Some ladies don't deserve men like that anyway, they should not be enabled.
Right now this affair is like a drug to her, cocaine to be exact. She has her love nest, and strong and virtuous security from you. Why change any thing?
Take care of yourself, and your story is an inspiration to all of us.
OIN,
You're not in the wrong here. Sometimes we say speaking to the WAS is like talking to an "alien". Whats funny is that from the conversation you described, she's out with OM and wants you to do all the changing. Not fair at all is it?
I'd continue what you've been doing, obviously don't get into another conversation this deep. It will not make any sense at all.
Take care of yourself, find activities outside of the house that you like to do. Going to the gym will help your mood out, and keep you from getting depressed. Be seen by the opposite sex.
We all know where you are at, and it sucks. I don't like that you want to openly discuss with her, and she believes that you needed to change.
It sounded like you where always a fair and loving guy to her from your discussions. Some ladies don't deserve men like that anyway, they should not be enabled.
Right now this affair is like a drug to her, cocaine to be exact. She has her love nest, and strong and virtuous security from you. Why change any thing?
Take care of yourself, and your story is an inspiration to all of us.
No, I did not say she was out with OM, I was just referring to the past and making assumptions about what did happen when there were talking. There was only one instance where my W left the house where something physical could have happened but I trusted her enough to think nothing did happen. There were just hints of things that made me think "maybe it got physical that one time" but I still continues loving her and trying to make this marriage work but it was always in the back of my mind.
And no, I was not always a loving guy. I was a controlling, abusing bully. I realized I was leading an unhealthy way of living and destroying my spouse and our M not to mention myself. SO I made changes. I go the help I needed and achieved a new outlook on life then I began to DB to save my marriage.
My W does deserve a man like that and I never was and I am doing everything to become.
Stop engaging her. She was upset at the message. You didn't need to add to it. You should have said something like, "I understand why you would be upset at the message". Then let her rant.
By talking to her, and actually apologizing that just added more fuel to the fire. She wants to play the blameless victim and needed someone to blame it on. You were the easy target and actually made the target bigger by taking blame.
You need to understand that what you did in the past was the past. Stop beating yourself over it. Now is the time to move on. She is latching onto that "hurt" because she was embarrassed and hurt but can't bring herself to accept at least part of the responsibility for your sitch.
When she rages against you, move to the other room. When she accuses you of taking sides or demands that you take the blame, calmly tell her that she is entitled to feel how she does, but you are not required to sit there and listen to her.
This is where you need to start taking some kind of stand for yourself. Believe me. My W did the same thing. She accused me of so many things, I started believing them. There came a point where I sat back and said "WTF? That's not true" and I started to stand up for myself. Not in a mean way, but started stop being afraid.
Women don't want a man they can control.
Wow... busy day.
OK, the first mistake was trying to make HER FEEL better for the damage SHE DID to OMW's marriage.
I would have just let her stew on it the whole day and not even got involved. You can't win that battle.
If you supported her, she would criticize YOU for being paranoid. If you don't support her, she blasts you for that.
I haven't quite figured out how you found out about the facebook stuff... But if she finds out about damage SHE DID over at their home.. just let her SWIM in it... she needs to GROW UP TOO... and she hasn't.
She felt GUILTY for the mess she had made and she took that OUT on YOU...
YOu though tried to jump right in and well, it was a bomb waiting to go off.
I think you need to sit down and put a very LONG well thought out letter together.
When you talk to her, she is very good at provoking you into a fight... she's VERY good at that... this is the test... you have to STEEL yourself against the provocation.
And she DID hint today that you did have her thinking twice... she was reconsidering... you WERE making some impact...so, we know what works... I think you saw that in her responses...
MWD points out in DR that you WILL have bad days. Her advice is to shrug them off and just keep going. Don't make a big apology out of it, just keep going. I am looking for the pp reference to make sure i am quoting correctly, but I can't find it right now.
My advice is a bit split here. I LIKE the idea of just ignoring it like MWD said. But I also like the idea of you writing a letter.
How about you TRY to write a letter and (feel free to post here) if you can come up with something you LIKE and are CONFIDENT then send it, but if nothign looks half decent just keep going on as is.
---------------
Re the blackberry and her seeing this site.
That's fine. The custom fit answer to that is this :
"I am writing to a family therapy website and getting some good advice, but this is therapy, its private. It is nothing at all destructive to our marriage, its work to improve myself and my contributions here. If you see a family therapist your conversations would be confidential too... that's how it works. They are licensed professionals and their goal is to help you make a better contribution to our marriage - I felt like I was doing that. They will not compromise any marriage - its all professional advice there."
For the front comment :
"My work isn't a front, its me following professional advice. Feel free to let me know if you approve at all of what I've been doing.. you can thank my therapist for it... It's not a front - Its just me doing what I can to make up for all the mistakes I've made."
I am still thinking, but I will send this off now...
Right now this affair is like a drug to her, cocaine to be exact. She has her love nest, and strong and virtuous security from you. Why change any thing?
It was an EA and had been confronted and pretty much over. The task was now to focus on positive changes form the person I was and DB. Also prevent any future A in the process.
It was an EA and had been confronted and pretty much over. The task was now to focus on positive changes form the person I was and DB. Also prevent any future A in the process.
Don't worry OIN, I don't think DLS is reading you full thread, he's trying to help.
You are cool. We may need to get more creative here, but right NOW... dont make a big deal about the fight... it's ok to look sorry, its ok to feel sorry, but do NOT chase her around the hosue trying to apologize.
I honeslty think she KNOWS SHE put into the fight too.
YOU could have just left her alone to stew like was suggested earlier.. and I AGREE.. so your mistake was getting involved in that mess.
HER mistake was taking her upset out on YOU. She PICKED that fight with you... don't fool yourself into thinking that was you. SHE was a BOMB waiting to go off and YOU decided that YOU should go disable the BOMB... and guess what?
BOOM!!!
Sometimes you just gotta let the woman stew over something and NOT try to FIX it.
Hang in there... you did set yourself back about six weeks, but I think this is reparable. You are sorry for the damage you DID do when she picked the fight.
You are a cop here, you know how to h andle it when someone tries to pick a fight with you.. you be teh BIGGER MAN and BACK OFF right?
She picked that fight with you. She was pissed and took a few hits at you, and you threw a solid hit back at her instead of backing off.
I would work on the letter... just keep things quiet for now... I think this is reparable.. I've been there man... I had fights with my wife too while she was cheating and she blasted me big time and I blasted her back... similar to how you did...
One night I tried to explain to my wife her cheating on my wasn't a fair arrangement and she can't expect us to get any better under thsoe conditions. I ended up confronting her and telling her I am pulling the plug on the house (our mortgage was up for renewal).
ME : I have no intention of renewing the mortgage. I will continue to want our marriage to work, but I am not going to support an affair taking place on that comptuer in our very own home. If our home has to fall apart for you to see the damage you are doing so be it.
HER : DOn't throw ultimatims at me. How dare you threaten me!
ME : You've been threatening me with your infidelity!
HER : How so?
ME : It's an ultimatim.
HER : What ultimatim?
ME : Your actions tell me every day "Do what you are told mister or I will go and F$#K that guy"
She screamed soemthing at me incoherent at the top of her lungs and stomped off.
------------
Its similar to your exchange.
Good news OIN... My wife's still here. There is hope.
You are gonna need to come up with some new tricks though.
I think a letter explaining your changes and the motivation behind them may help a lot here.
Your situation sounds so much like the movie Fireproof it's shocking!
I'm going to listen to this thread and re-read it. She may be angry with OIN and retaliate due to the break up of the affair. Sorry I forgot that crucial detail. It may be tough to talk with her for a while. Allan A is correct in that it may be set back by many weeks or even months.
I typed out a letter. I will hand write it. I don't think she will read it.
I feel like I have more than set myself back but greatly diminished my chances of ever reconciling. There are so many components involved from our past, to OM and her co-workers and her father.
My W has a huge problem when it comes to trusting people. She just does NOT and if you burn her she will shut you out completely. I watched her do this to her mother and to this day she still does not speak to her. We are talking 3 years now.
I can see the resentment and hate in her eyes when she looks at me. She is NOT your typical WAS trust me.
Allen you have been a main contributor to this thread and I wanted to share something with you in private (email or something) if you don't mind.
Also I think I am going to hire a DB coach if there is any hope..
P.S. Now do I watch "Fireproof" with her?
The hatred is common. It passes.
You can email me at aa@rapidsoftware.ca
I hope the system doens't bounc the address out of the post
No don't watch fireproof with her...
Seriously, you said some stuff that hurt, but you didn't do anything THAT horrible to be honest.
There was the one crude remark, but for the most part you DID try to soften her nerves. YOu didn't do a good JOB, but you tried and I would LIKE to think that is something NEW.
If you want to email me the letter, or post it here for out input feel free.
No problem. I think you can post your letter to your wife here, others may have some input.
If we can't come up with a letter that's really going to knock her socks off then we can just not send one. I am still not certain about this. MWD says not to send letters, but I think she means LOVE letters.
Well here it is. I just started to type so we can take away or add to it. Thanks for all the input.
=========================================================
The day you told me that you were no longer in love with me and wanted our marriage to end it had to be the worst day in my life right beside the passing of my Grandfather. I felt angry, upset, hurt, afraid and lost. You were all that I had ever known and the reality of living a life without you terrified me.
During the first week or so I did not know how to handle the news. I then thought about how I made someone who loved me so much turn on me. I replayed the past 10 years in my head over and over. All that had happened and everything ate away at me. For weeks I had lost my appetite and my will to do anything and felt like I could not go on another day. I had let you and everyone I care for down. I hurt the person that meant so much to me and I could not justify any of my actions or words. I realized I needed help and I had to make a positive change in my life, not just for my mental and physical well being but for the better of our marriage.
At first I was afraid and embarrassed. To first admit I had a problem and then come to terms with all that I did wrong. I did not know how to go about getting help. I asked my lieutenant at work "do we have access to some sort of counseling?" and I was given a booklet with a number to call. I called and explained to a complete stranger what a terrible person I was. We began to dissect my mind and get to the source of my issues. With multiple sessions I came out with a new understanding and positivity. This made me want to get more help.
I started to call therapist after therapist getting advice from each. Sometimes they would counsel me over the phone or I would go into their office. This is were I was told by one therapist that "you can never be a better person if you do not ever forgive yourself." That was the most difficult part in this entire process, how could I forgive myself when I destroyed the person I love and our marriage? but I was told it was key to the process. I was then told "in addition to forgiving yourself you also need to allow the Lord to enter your life and pray for his forgiveness." I initially thought and actually said "How could I ask for forgiveness of someone I don't believe in or have faith in" and I was told "it is all part of the process." I asked "How do I start this process? what do I need to do?" the therapist handed me a book and told me to read it, even if I did not do what the book said at least read it and I would have a better understanding why and how God worked for the better of relationships and mankind in genral. The book is called the "Love Dare." It was here I learned what true love is. The way god intended love to be. I cried. I cried for many reasons. I now knew that I had such an unhealthy outlook on life. I also found how much I truly do love you. Love so unconditional.
I committed myself to God and acknowledged him as my savior and prayed for his forgiveness. I had done this some time ago but did not reveal this to you because I thought you would take it negatively.
Continuing my therapy I was referred to seek additional advice from online support groups on family therapy websites. This is therapy, its private. It is nothing at all destructive to our marriage or you, its work to improve myself and my contributions here. I spoke with many licensed professionals and their goal is to help me make a better contribution to our marriage and our lives - I felt like I was doing that.
What I said today, that comment, is not a reflection of who I am or how far I have come to being a better person but my hurt, that got the best of me and I said a foul thing, something that had haunted me since it all began. I never assumed but I did question.
My work and road to improvement isn't a front, its me following professional advice under the guidance of god. Feel free to let me know if you approve at all of what I've been doing, if so, thank these therapist and God but If you can honestly say or think that I am the same person I was 3 months ago and have made no positive changes then please let me know, I will pray more and employ new ways to better myself.
=================================================
IMHO,
I wouldn't send this message. There's a reason why they say in DR to not talk about the R. It sounds like more self-flagellation. There are only so many times you can say "sorry".
You've said it countless times and it doesn't excuse her for what she did. Trust me. I did the same thing and it got me no where. Maybe you should just let things settle down a bit.
You're trying to move things along according to your time table. This has to be at her pace. It sucks, but she has to be the one to make the moves, not you.
This is pretty damn good as it is actually.
There are a few areas I would touch up, but its a top notch first draft at the very least.
My one question is.. how RELIGIOUS is your wife?
My W was always religious but my views on religion caused her to stray away from her faith but she always believed. I did not.
Today she made the comment "Now all of a sudden you believe? after how many years?"
My question is now...where do I go from here? Keep on as if today did not happen and continue to do what I was doing or do I back off and let her do her thing while I do mine and see if she comes around?
If I would have just kept my mouth shut rather than trying to calm her than we would had a pretty good day otherwise.
Last night we slept in same bed, I am debating if I should even try to lay there tonight...
We need to tone down that letter a bit then.
I think if her needing your religious commitment is important, its important that she beleive its sincere. I think your letter does make it sound as if this is rather sudden.
I think a better way to express belief in God to her right now is
I am working twoards believing in this... I want to be sincere, this is something I struggle with still. I am told it can take time for people to work to the point where they have faith in something they didn't before. I hoenstly don't think I CAN make that happen overnight.. it's been months but something is in me now since I started doing the changes I did. I didn't even WANT to do them at first I was so confused. I did them anyways. Now I actually ENJOY doing them. I really need you to believe that.
You need to belive you are worth the effort, which you are.
----------------
Something aiming at that ... don't make it sound like a light bulb hit you, she's not going to buy that... be honest and tell her you are working at it, and something is in you now that you don't quite understand, but you are happy its there and want to share it with her.
My question is now...where do I go from here? Keep on as if today did not happen and continue to do what I was doing or do I back off and let her do her thing while I do mine and see if she comes around?
If I would have just kept my mouth shut rather than trying to calm her than we would had a pretty good day otherwise.
Last night we slept in same bed, I am debating if I should even try to lay there tonight...
You need to keep your distance for a few days. Do the work around the house and such. If she DOES ASK you.. and i stress ASK you to do something DO IT, no questions.
If you make a lunch, make extra for her and just quietly let her know its there and go about your business. Don't try to talk to her or pursue her in any way right now.. give her SPACE to absorb the whole argument. She needs to own part of it too... and you giving her the time to absorb that will give that time to sink in.
I am wondering about you posting something to facebook on her behalf, but I dont know what to say just yet.
I would need to see the EXACT text that was written about her.. the full blast from OMW sister to know how to respond.
allen, really sorry to barge in..could you come visit me in Newcomers where I've swtiched to (thread is "5 weeks left to DB - need help with my plan")? Feeling like I'm about to derail my DBing.
OfficerInNeed - Excuse me for hijacking. very sorry.
My question is now...where do I go from here? Keep on as if today did not happen and continue to do what I was doing or do I back off and let her do her thing while I do mine and see if she comes around?
If I would have just kept my mouth shut rather than trying to calm her than we would had a pretty good day otherwise.
Last night we slept in same bed, I am debating if I should even try to lay there tonight...
You need to keep your distance for a few days. Do the work around the house and such. If she DOES ASK you.. and i stress ASK you to do something DO IT, no questions.
If you make a lunch, make extra for her and just quietly let her know its there and go about your business. Don't try to talk to her or pursue her in any way right now.. give her SPACE to absorb the whole argument. She needs to own part of it too... and you giving her the time to absorb that will give that time to sink in.
I am wondering about you posting something to facebook on her behalf, but I dont know what to say just yet.
I would need to see the EXACT text that was written about her.. the full blast from OMW sister to know how to respond.
It was a lot of slander and threats. It was sent on 3/10 so over a month ago. I am sure my W would NOT appreciate it is I made a post on her behalf. My W had not been on facebook in months before today and probably only signed on 3 times in a life time.
Yup, she may not like it... but she was upset you weren't supporting her on it. I am not saying jump on there, it just was a thought that occurred to me that if she wants you to respect her and to speak up FOR her then that was a POSSIBLE route you could take if you wanted...
OIN,
Sounds like a really bad day. You need to give her space. As for the letter, I think it is too long. She is not likely to want to hear all of that right now. But you should say something. I think it would be good to tell her that you are sorry you spoke rashly (or use your words) yesterday. You just want the two of you to get along. And you will do your best to get along with her. And then close your mouth. Maybe when things cool off and tempers fade, you could give her the letter. But things are too stirred up right now.
Much more of the same today. I woke up this morning and got ready for my personal training session and I had to move the W car so I could get out. I had to go in jer purse and get her keys. She was sleeping and usually has no problem with me doing so. I noticed she had a missed call on her "other phone" so I checked to see if maybe it was her father.
It was a contact by the name of "tony c" a name I had never seen before. Learning my lesson from last time I simply approached her and asked "you have a missed call from a tony c...do you mind if I asked who that is?' In a very calm tone. She said it is a supervisor from work and she got his number in case she needed anything. She said her uncle knows the guy. She found no issue with this and was starting to get upset...
I said to her, I was just asking as you told me to do in the past. So I asked... I then said "I never expected this from you. You are doing and saying things that you were against"
She said "no, you just don't know the real me, only who you wanted me to be"
So I questioned if 10 years was a lie, she said "not a lie more like me just going along with things....but now that iis what I am breaking away from so I can be happy. I got this phone so it could be mine and here you are doing it again"
I thought I was doing a good deed and it backfired.
I then apologized for my words yesterday, then I went on to say "I know I was a controlling person and I did everything I could to make you believe as if you and I were the only ones to exist. I tried to build a wall around you but know that no matter how high I built that wall if you wanted to get over it you would"
She said "you are just now realizing this after I have said it many times in the past?"
I know somewhere in the convo I question the 10 years to be a lie she said "not all of it" I questioned being in love with me and spending a life with me she said "did I say that?"
I fail to remember what I said that made her say the following but...
She said "you know I have a very hard time trusting people and it takes a lot for me to build that trust. Until I see any change in you I don't care what u have to say and don't care to let you know who I am"
I surebi left a lot out but man...I think this is one W that can't be DBed
OIN,
The attitude sounds like that of my wife. Holding the strong position when she's the betrayer. Obviously the communication from her was never direct enough. It appears that SHE may be even more controlling than you think you are.
It hurts me to read this, and the lack of remorse or empathy in her responses. Many of us would think logically that the betrayer would understand where we are at and help to salve the wounds, and perhaps not speak in such a sharp manner.
Your not getting that. I would like to see what Allan A and others have to say about this.
I thought I was doing a good deed and it backfired.
Sorry, but I call "B.S." on that one, OIN. C'mon, can you at least be honest with yourself here? You were checking her phone -- and asking her about who "Tony C." was -- because you were suspicious of her behavior, and I might add that I think you have EVERY RIGHT to be.
Why is everyone walking on eggs around this woman??? Puppy
OIN,
I mentioned to someone else, that because the Affair is busted, she may be angry and may be directing all of that anger at you. Its a tough position to be in.
Because she's thretening to leaev, her FATHER is supporting her and building her a home of her own... she can walk out the door at any moment and they have no kids.
OIN has no leverage really to keep the marriage under control.. if she wants to trash it she pretty much can.
We know she can very well trash it if she likes, the actions by her father do not help OIN.
Is there anything or should OIN do anything to allow the wife to desire OIN back in her life as a high priority and a marriage partner?
Because she's thretening to leaev, her FATHER is supporting her and building her a home of her own... she can walk out the door at any moment
and they have no kids. Ironic. In
my sitch, it was the
presence of kids that led me to so much appeasement of my wife.
It didn't work for me either.
Puppy
He's been doin that DLS.. but its only been three months.
A rough estimate is TEN months of d-bing to turn her around... we had a bit of a backslide yesterday that threw a wrench in things.
OIN. I think you bringing up Tony C was NOT helpful today. Your wife is going to get a phone call from a man now and then... confronting her right NOW while she's ready to step out the door with her father holding the nob for her is NOT going to help you.
Keep an eye on her, you are a cop, you know there are ways of watching people wtihout confronting them directly.. USE IT.
She's QUITE RAW from yesterday's fight.. the LAST thing you want to be doing right now is confronting her a boutsomething that at the time looks trivial.
Why on earth didn't you just write DOWN the number that was calling and check into the number on your OWN to verify it?
Do NOT confront this woman if you have a history of jealous and controlling behaviour, she needs to see a NEW you, not a RERUN of the OLD you
Ironic. In my sitch, it was the presence of kids that led me to so much appeasement of my wife.
It didn't work for me either.
Puppy
I dont normally reccomend softball, but when there's so little leverage and her own father is enabling her escapism I am going to stand by the softball approach. OIN you have a history to UNDO here... and hardball when there isn't apparent cause to use it right YET is not helping you.
A phone call from a man does NOT equal an affair.
Save hardball until you are confident she's cheating. One call isn't evidence of an affair.
Keep an eye on her, you are a cop, you know there are ways of watching people wtihout confronting them directly.. USE IT.
. . .
Why on earth didn't you just write DOWN the number that was calling and check into the number on your OWN to verify it?
Puppy
Keep an eye on her, you are a cop, you know there are ways of watching people wtihout confronting them directly.. USE IT.
. . .
Why on earth didn't you just write DOWN the number that was calling and check into the number on your OWN to verify it?
Puppy
The thing is OIN. This isnt' just destructive to the marriage, its a bad strategy. If she IS cheating on you, she's going to LIE about him anyways.
If you suspect your wife is cheating on you, do NOT confront THEM for the TRUTH. Where does confrontation get you without any INTEL to back you up?
1. If you confront unarmed and they are cheating, you are just going to get lies and be
no further ahead.2. If confront unarmed and they aren't cheating, you are just going to tick them off and be
no further ahead.
I agree with PDT.
She gets a strange phone call...actually has a second phone...and she gets defensive when he asks her who it is? She checks his phone whenever, grabs it from him and turns the conversation around about how she can't trust him. Sorry but trust is a two way street and right now it's all one way.
It doesn't matter if he has no kids or she's ready to go. Heck all of our spouses are ready to go. That doesn't mean that he has to continue to be stepped on by this woman.
She was hurt in the past. Fine. But let's face it. I'm sure there were times OIN that she hurt you, but you let it slide. And she had an A.
Start standing up to her and get your self-respect back.
My W has endured so much pain through our 10 year R. I can honestly that her words are justified by my past actions.
Before I left this morning I said "If you honestly think and see no changes in me over the past 3 months please tell me, because if so I will need to find a new counselor or better methods on how to improve myself." My W would not say anything or even look at me. Then I said "I hope that one day we can sit down and I can get to know the "real you"." then I walked out the door.
I think while I was gone she was searching the web on how to get her name off the mortgage.
Do I think my W is cheating? in my gut, no. I just think she has changed from the person I once knew...
As of now I am not initiating any conversation with her. If she asks a question I respond, if she asks me to do something I do it but I will not, at least for now initiate anything. I will wait till sh feels comfortable to approach me.
I'm not saying to be an @$$ or anything, but there comes a point where you say "okay things happened in the past, let's move on". Your W has shown no remorse whatsoever. I don't care what you might have done in the "past". We all did stuff that hurt our spouses. Maybe you felt you did more than most, but DBing is about what works and right now what you're doing isn't working.
Try not to cave in so much and see what happens.
It WAS working MrBond... he just had a backslide yesterday.
Rebuilding trust takes TIME.
You can't just dismiss the past because you WANT to dismiss it. IF his wife is HURT and ANGRY about something he DID DO then that needs respect and attention, not dismissals... waving a spouse off who's been sincerely hurt (and OIN has acknoweledged that) is NOT going to make OIN any more appealing right now.
OIN has acknoeldged controlling too much in the past, so maybe jsut let his wife have the command of the home for a while to give her some confidence and build some trust here. I have been ripped off monetarilly from people in the past and it does take TIME to rebuild that .. a few months is nothing.
You need patience, OIN. It hasn't been long enough. LOL, I know about Patience... I don't have ANY of it. It's only been three DAYS since exposure for me and I'm trying to figure out what I've done wrong and right... the fallout hasn't even happened yet.
Allen's right. For me in the past, it took over a year to get the D busted, it was a long, hard road and you need to take care of YOU so you have the energy to continue.
YOu made it to the end of the thread Pass!?
Congradulations! lol
Long story I know.
I hope you found the earlier parts useful in some way. I don't get to see many exposure campaigns let during a double affair.. it was great to see how much impact it has had for both of you.
I think its a killer tactic based on these two samples from you and OIN.. you both ahve done a great job being bold enogh to take the affair to teh OP's doorstep and beyond.
And it DOES seem to have a lot of impact.
I just confirmed my W did do a search on how to remove her name from the mortgage.
I have been keeping my distance from her all day. I pretty much stay upstairs while she has stayed down stairs. A few times today she called me down stairs to show me something or came upstairs to see what I was doing. When I was downstairs she asked me a few times to get her something and of course I did.
I feel more at loss today than I have in the past 3-4 weeks. She is now actually researching how to go about the separation.
Up till yesterday it was easy to act "as if" because I felt more optimistic about our sitch but in the past 24hrs it has taken a dramatic turn for the worse.
This is when SNOOPING is BAD...
I am certainly up for the task. I have never felt this way about her and I have so much to give and I hope its not "too little too late."
Marriage has never meant so much to me. I did so much damage to our R and I am willing to endure hell to reconcile...and have endurer as much so far but I keep going
And if she suddenly becomes a clinging vine and needing a lot of emotional things from you, and wanting you to spend all your free time with her....will you still be so intent on keeping her? One reason you want her so badly is b/c you are on the verge of losing her, but what if that changes?
I am certainly up for the task. I have never felt this way about her and I have so much to give and I hope its not "too little too late."
Marriage has never meant so much to me. I did so much damage to our R and I am willing to endure hell to reconcile...and have endurer as much so far but I keep going
And if she suddenly becomes a clinging vine and needing a lot of emotional things from you, and wanting you to spend all your free time with her....will you still be so intent on keeping her? One reason you want her so badly is b/c you are on the verge of losing her, but what if that changes?
if that suddenly happened I would be a very happy person. I always wanted her but never thought she would leave and so the routine continued. I always thought she would be mine. Now I know the reality of it all is she WILL LEAVE and if she decided to give us one more chance I would NEVER ruin it again. I would NEVER HURT her again....
You know sandi, I was actually in the living room watching TV with her on a separate couch. I was in a rut, not just because I am losing her or have already lost her but because I was VERY disappointed in myself for what happened in the past 24hrs. I should have just kept my mouth shut. I decided to go up stairs not exactly sure what I should do from this point. So I read your post and got up and went right back down stairs and continues to watch TV with her until she went to bed.
I want her to know how I feel about her but I don't want to pressure her. I want to be a person where when it came down to it she would question herself "Do I really want someone else having something this good when I can have it for myself?" and I don't know how to accomplish this.
I said "goodnight" to her tonight and have not said it since week 3 or so in our sitch. She did not say it back but I thought "If she left, would she miss my 'goodnight's? "
It is not a question of how I feel about her but rather how she feels about me. I want to become someone she will miss if she made that decision to leave. I pray she it does not come to that point....
I want her to know how I feel about her... I want to be a person where when it came down to it she would question herself "Do I really want someone else having something this good when I can have it for myself?"
Have it for yourself?
I think you mean... WE can SHARE this TOGETHER.. right?
I broke down and decided to purchased the DB coaching sessions. I want to make sure I try everything to save our marriage. Unfortunately it is the weekend so no one is available at this time. I need some DB tips till then.
Here is a outline of the past 48 hours.
- W said there is nothing I can do.
- W said she will be leaving in a few weeks
- W said I am controlling
- W said she sees no changes and that it is all a front.
- I made a stupid comment and she said "that comment ruined any change you my have had"
- I looked at her phone seen a name and asked who it was. She was calm at first but I did not leave it alone and kept asking "and" and "why" she then became upset
- W said I don't know the real her only who I wanted her to be She has lived a lie for 10 years.
- W said leaving me is her first step to happiness.
- W said she has a hard time trusting people and it will take a lot for her to trust me again.
- I said to W "If you honestly think that in the past 3 months I have not changed any bit, please tell me because I will seek help else where because what I am doing now is not working" W gave no response and actually looked away.
- I said to W "I hope one day we can sit down and I can get to know the "real you"
- W searching the Internet on how to remove herself from the mortgage
- W thinks I am talking to OW. She has access to my phone anytime. I do not allow her to check phone logs anymore because it is a parasite. No matter what it gets her upset and she picks a fight.
- W does not care what I have to say or about anything that has to do with me, she is living her life and stuck in "my" house.
OIN,
You'll be fine. Mine just told me today that I was talking with her friends, etc over the last few months. It is not true, she believes all these untruths, is very rigid and untrusting of me, controlling at an insane level. I don't like what she's saying she is anyway, and having not even fully started my DB'ing - why should I mold myself for someone who won't do the same for me. One whose behaviors are embarrassing for me, one who likes to humiliate me, one who WILL put me in harms way or cost me time and money.
She told me today she's done after I explained to her, that I haven't talked to her friend since last year when the friend thought she was dropping a bomb by telling me she cheated on me. She won't believe what I say and I'm fine with that.
I'm going to let her stay in her crazy world and pray to god that she doesn't regress to even worse high school like behavior for my kids sake.
I've been thrown out of my family and it doesn't feel good at all. I'm not trying to have a pity party either. Its time to start living at a million miles and hour, and to let this one who "JUST CANT STAND TO SEE ME HAPPY" go on about their life.
Take care of yourself dude, there are a lot of women who deserve a man as good as you. I'm going to do the same.
Don't know if you ever read my posts, but for everything you've detailed, there's a very simple solution again...Back Off.
She says you're controlling. She says you won't change. Etc.
Stop engaging in conversations to make her change her mind or see things differently. The reason why DB says to not bring up R talks is precisely for this. Let her see the changes in you. Actions more than words. Let her come up with her own conclusions.
DLS,
I appreciate your input and advice. Although I am being put through hell...part of me deserves and the other needs to endure it because I still want my W and I will do what ever it takes to reconcile.
I have backed off. I have not initiated any relationship talks with my W. I pretty much outlined in my last post what happened in the past 48hrs, and where it took a turn for the worse after I thought progress was being made.
Today, she came home from work. She was not in that bad of a mood. I made some food/lunch and she had some. She talked to me about something she read in the paper. We sat down and started to watch a movie. Then we watched another movie. The food upset her stomach so now she is laying down till it settles.
During the movies, as when we have watched other movies during the sitch, we shared a laugh. When I say "share a laugh" I mean we looked at each other in the eyes and started to smile/laugh. Feels good when that happens.
OIN,
You have a different situation. If she comes back and reattaches and becomes your wife again, I say go for it.
Oh, by the way - in my situation, my wife would need to CHANGE or drop some behaviors to stay with a man like myself. This isn't definately about me being the one to change.
If your wife keeps attaching and pulling away to your great pain, while expecting you to do a ton of changing while she keeps her ways that are hurtful to you - I'd say weigh it out, you may have to leave.
only you know.
OIN- I can remember being envious of your still having W at home...I also very much remember the behavior you're describing...very painful to deal w/.
Like Bond said- watch the pursuit and pressure. You need to be very one dimensional- like Mr Spock...no emotion...sucks b/c I know you feel more now than ever before, but thats what the sitch calls for.
She will rip at your heart and guts...
Validate what you can, get a good cry in in private and PMA!!
It gets easier when they are gone, but they are mostly gone when they leave...like mine- I am not a part of her life at all...sure it makes it easier- but I feel forgotten...
You are in the game and you obv care...if she's leaving- I say eff some of the hardass stuff- enjoy every minute you have w/ her, make sure its stress free and lots of laughs...
Exude love but not the kind that will turn her off...
Give her some awsome memories to draw from...she will remember them.
Thats just my advice...
no drama no sweat no pressure...just the OIN she fell in love w/- make her walk out on that guy, not the contolling busy and routine based guy we can become when we get comfortable...
not sur if others will agree, but just a thought
W woke up just as I was leaving for work. She was upset that she had nothing to pack for lunch for work the next morning. She was still not feeling well and in no mood to do any shopping. So I told her I would bring her lunch
I met her this morning and gave her a ride from the lot to her work place...we had a few different convos. We laughed, I gave her the lunch and she said "thank you" and exited the vehicle. She lost her footing as she was getting out... So I joked and said "want to try that again" she laughed and walked away. I said bye but got no response but I don't think she heard me..
We'll see the remainder of the day goes. She is going to that benefit today (the one that sparked an argument)
Also I want to mention that my W sent her father a txt message telling him how much of a great person he is and that his GF is lucky to have him.
Hold it..
Your wife loses her footing and you make a JOKE?
You MIGHT want to ask her if she's OK next time.. she MAY have laughed at the joke man, but I honestly don't think that's the best way to handle a wife losing footing...
What's this about you locking up your phone logs on her?
Allen,
It is not as bad as I made it seem. She was attempting to get out of my vehicle we were parked close to the curb she did not know the curb was so close that she stepped out on to it and feel back into her seat. She started to laugh and I said "are you ok?" She said "yes" and then I said what was posted above. She continued to laugh.
Yes I changed the log in to the phone logs. No matter what every time she checks the logs. She has access to my phone I delete nothing but for some reason she is always looking for something that is not there and she gets to the point where she starts attacking me and our R. What I mean is...if she finds nothing it gets her more upset because she still thinks something should/was there and the result is her getting very irritated and telling me how bad she wants out the M even more so. I think the phone logs trigger memories.
Allen,
It is not as bad as I made it seem. She was attempting to get out of my vehicle we were parked close to the curb she did not know the curb was so close that she stepped out on to it and feel back into her seat. She started to laugh and I said "are you ok?" She said "yes" and then I said what was posted above. She continued to laugh.
Yup, you lucked out there. Can you see how she COULD have turned that comment on you and BLASTED you instead as being inconsiderate?
You are just LUCKY man, that in my opinion was a bad call... you SET yourself UP for her to HIT you again ... you are just lucky she didn't... you need to control what you say to her man...
I can see how that scenario COULD have turned right against you ...
YOU : Wanna try that again?
HER : So now I can't even walk properly? I am SO SORRY I dissappointed YOU!
Gets out of the car and STORMS OFF...
------------
She COULD have said that, and YOU invited it.. you dodged a BULLET there man. Do NOT give her ANY REASON to get defensive or feel under attack.
Yes I changed the log in to the phone logs. No matter what every time she checks the logs. She has access to my phone I delete nothing but for some reason she is always looking for something that is not there and she gets to the point where she starts attacking me and our R. What I mean is...if she finds nothing it gets her more upset because she still thinks something should/was there and the result is her getting very irritated and telling me how bad she wants out the M even more so. I think the phone logs trigger memories.
I don't think you deleting stuff is helping your case at all... she needs to see you are being transparent about everything except your marital therapy exchanges (including this forum).
I don't think you deleting stuff is helping your case at all... she needs to see you are being transparent about everything except your marital therapy exchanges (including this forum).
I have not deleted anything. I just changed the password.
My W just left for the benefit. Before she left I told her "To be careful and enjoy herself." something the old me would not have said...then I asked "Do you have enough money?" she said she had money. I then went into my pocket and pulled out some money and tried to hand it to her. She said "I told you I have money I don't need it" I said "It is not for you, it is for the cause and I want to show support. I am sure there will be raffles or something there, just out it toward that" She was upset and reluctantly took the money. Then our dog ran out the door and we had to chase her down. My W blamed me for that. We caught the dog. I told my W "We got her, it's OK, stay calm and go have fun" Then my W left....
Allen email..
OIN,
Most of your exchanges she appears to communicate that "I am not really with you". However bursting the affair is kind of leaving things, where the logical and GOOD choice is just to bring her ass all the way back home. However PRIDE and EGO will get someone to make the wrong choice, even the the goo dchoice is much better for them, and they know it. They'll lie. I hope yours works out to your favour. You sound like a good man.
I agree w/ Allen in that you clearly dodged a bullet- I know that joking and keeping things light is good, but in these sitches, ALMOST ANYTHING can be taken the wrong way and used against you...just be wary.
I think the money thing was nice- especially to support the cause...be carefull though of insisting, as it may be misconstrued as a battle of wills...
UGH- seriously anything you do can be flipped on you, so just be conscious of that, I believe you are to a degree.
I know its not fair, bu thats the way it goes w/ the WAS...
Yup.
With the OIN, I think its best if you kept any private information on your PC at work or at least someplace else that she wont' look at. You locking things down does NOT help your case at ALL right now...
She has trust issues, is ready to walk, and you start locking down your phone? I dunno... I would put my private contacts (OMW etc) on my work PC that she doesn't see or something like that... don't you have a desk or something at work?
You are right about it not helping but I am kind of trapped right now. I do not have a work pc or a desk, I work out of a vehicle.
Its past logs I am worried about, nothing recent. I would love to allow her access. The big issue is my laptop burned out on me 2 months ago and we have been sharing the same laptop.
I have nothing to hide but if she sees this website or other material I have been reading I think she would use that against me.
Buy a new laptop and keep it in your vehicle.. I assume she doens't go in there...
You want to protect your therapy related info and your affair-busting info, but at the same time you don't want her to think you are keeping secrets that are to her detriment either.
If she KNOWS you are KEEPINg things from her she will ASSUME the WORST right now... and you are NOT setting an example this way.. SHE can now lock up whatever she likes and YOU are a sitting DUCK for it... you have NO position to challenger since YOU are doing the same thing
Well, from her perspective anyways. I DO realise there is an important difference between keeping secrets TO SAVE a marriage and keeping secrets to DESTROY a marriage.
If you have nothing to hide, why do you have to hide something? She may have a point.
Allen,
I am at a loss for words...damn if I do and damn if I don't. My intentions were to preserve any opportunity we had a reconciliation not to sabotage it.
I will figure out a better computer situation. I am sure I can pull an old one out from the basement. I don't have the luxury of purchasing a new laptop.
I am beating myself up on how I can work this all out. I was dishonest to her but only because I knew it would destroy all hope if she felt as if I was still controlling her or the situation.
If you have nothing to hide, why do you have to hide something? She may have a point.
I kept in contact with OM and OMW. She told me if I did she would leave bit I felt it was necessary to do so. She would not accept the fact I was doing it to protect our marriage because to her there is no marriage. She views it as "you talk to him/her so why can't I talk to him?" Which would lead her to pursue OM more. I since have stopped talking to each but there are past logs. She told me right out, if I go through all the logs and see you talked to her just once I will find someplace to stay and leave"
Luckily at the time the most recent logs were not posted, but they are now. If she sees them it would be that much harder/worse for our marriage and reconciliation.
I kept in contact with OM and OMW. She told me if I did she would leave bit I felt it was necessary to do so.
And you wonder why she considers you "controlling"? "To save your marriage" is a cop-out.
She would not accept the fact I was doing it to protect our marriage because to her there is no marriage.
And why should there be? Why do you get to keep secrets from her but she doesn't get to keep them from you? Why should she ever believe that you are willing to trust her again when you so obviously don't?
I was dishonest to her but only because I knew it would destroy all hope if she felt as if I was still controlling her or the situation.
That's because you
are trying to control her; you can't build a healthy relationship on lies and mistrust. At some point, you have to choose to trust her again.
She's already unfriended you on Facebook and removed all of your friends. How much more damage are you going to do in the name of saving your R before it's too late?
I kept in contact with OM and OMW. She told me if I did she would leave bit I felt it was necessary to do so.
And you wonder why she considers you "controlling"? "To save your marriage" is a cop-out.
She would not accept the fact I was doing it to protect our marriage because to her there is no marriage.
And why should there be? Why do you get to keep secrets from her but she doesn't get to keep them from you? Why should she ever believe that you are willing to trust her again when you so obviously don't?
I was dishonest to her but only because I knew it would destroy all hope if she felt as if I was still controlling her or the situation.
That's because you
are trying to control her; you can't build a healthy relationship on lies and mistrust. At some point, you have to choose to trust her again.
She's already unfriended you on Facebook and removed all of your friends. How much more damage are you going to do in the name of saving your R before it's too late?
There are reasons why you would have to go way back in the thread to see. I attacked a possible A head on before it became something more. After the confrontation my W still pursued OM. OM, trying to mend his M thought it would be best we stayed in contact, so we did. OMW wanted to stay in contact so we could monitor the situation and we did. Communication has stopped.
As petty as this is getting... My W has not removed me as her friend on facebook, our status is still actually listed as being married to eachother. A status she can easily change if she felt it were necessary.
I am not an expert at DBing I made many mistakes in our R. I am seeking help for my issues. It is a process. I have never experienced this before to know how to respond in certain situations. I only have good intentions. What you say is logical and unfortunately at that time I was not thinking logistical...I am only looking for help to save our marriage
If you have nothing to hide, why do you have to hide something? She may have a point.
I kept in contact with OM and OMW. She told me if I did she would leave bit I felt it was necessary to do so. She would not accept the fact I was doing it to protect our marriage because to her there is no marriage. She views it as "you talk to him/her so why can't I talk to him?" Which would lead her to pursue OM more. I since have stopped talking to each but there are past logs. She told me right out, if I go through all the logs and see you talked to her just once I will find someplace to stay and leave"
Luckily at the time the most recent logs were not posted, but they are now. If she sees them it would be that much harder/worse for our marriage and reconciliation.
OIN, she really is spinning things. Like they say, in the battle you are in with her at this stage - "the one who cares least wins". Winning is issuance of the most damage. Thats the phase she's in, a "revenge" phase, a "power" phase. It has nothing to do with love.
If you can find a way to "knock" her out of the mentality without touching her, that will be in your advantage.
Also whenever you feel you are "beating yourself up", I found it was a good time to go for a walk, a run or go to the gym. It will flip that emotion and you can work it out.
Like they say, in the battle you are in with her at this stage - "the one who cares least wins".
But what does he win?
If you can find a way to "knock" her out of the mentality without touching her, that will be in your advantage.
Yes, because if you try to "knock" her out of that mentality by touching her, that's likely to be considered physical violence.
If this is the kind of advice you've been getting, OIN, then I wish you well in your rapidly-approaching divorce.
TrentC,
OIN's gotten plenty of advice, some of it "good" and some of it "bad", but effective. In some cases our wives are working out of a "bad" realm, and attempts to woo them back doing "good" usually does not work, and we just get taken advantage of.
Of course I would never tell anyone to hit their wife.
Oh, what do we win when we realize that the battle our wife is having us in is "issuance of damage"... I'm not sure we win anything good. Maybe you win a broken heart and a wayward spouse and if your smart a divorce.
I hope the best for you and that she comes back around, you sound like a very good man.