Women�s Infidelity Living in Limbo

Thought I would share this - found it on the NMMNG forum. Comments?

A review of Women�s Infidelity Living in Limbo - http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol7no2/v7no2_Devlin.pdf

Makes interesting reading.

I've actually read both of the books this article quotes. What I took away from them was that the new hard line stance that has come into vogue around here via guys like Puppy, Gucci, Robx and perhaps Coach is the way to go.

Manning up and throwing down boundaries hard and fast and then walking, for real, if they are not respected is your only chance. Obviously you have to look at what went wrong and change but that might not be enough. These books say that sometimes nothing went wrong other than the women got bored. Those books state that once a certain threshold has been crossed and the women get a taste of the affair high, there is little you can do to win them back. If you go wuss boy, you will spend the rest of your life trying to please them and you will never be able to get it right. The only thing she loves about you is the secure feeling of the reliable stand by...she chose to stick with plan B...YOU.

Those two books are scary and sobering. I am not totally convinced they are 100% correct. Interesting to note, however, is the author stated that the men who did get their wives back, threw their asses OUT. Most women just kept walking. Some came back and things got fixed. The men who appeased, changed, validated, enabled; some kept their wives but they lost their balls, lived in limbo and are miserable schmucks. Often with wives who are having great sex...with someone else.

Really comes down to, I think, and I can only speak for husbands, many of us know the truth, deep down we do but we are two chickensh!t to force our wives cheating hand and walk if need be, so we come here for years. I am sort of guilty of this myself. Things get just enough better to stick at it and I keep plugging along but I think I am almost 3 years in. I quote the book "Before we were married, I could do no wrong. Now I can do no right." That might be a Rodney Dangerfield quote too.

Originally Posted By: P17

Makes interesting reading.

Not often I read something straight through hanging on the edge of my seat. Sure did on that one. Wow, good stuff.

Originally Posted By: DownNotOut...yet

What I took away from them was that the new hard line stance that has come into vogue around here via guys like Puppy, Gucci, Robx and perhaps Coach is the way to go.

Nothing new about behaving like a man, but I know what you mean, a new thing here.

One of the "myths" that rarely gets addressed around here is that "The LBS must have done something to harm the relationship, and make the cheating spouse ripe for an affair, and they have to 'fix' those things to get their walkaway spouse back."

Well, yes -- often. Maybe even usually.

But Dr. Harley's research (as well as others), have uncovered a good % -- I think it was 20-25% -- of affairs happen in GOOD marriages. And by "good" I don't mean some DAM, or clueless wife, THINKING it was good. I mean they WERE good, healthy (maybe not perfect), marriages.

I think the key is to immediately separate the one group from another, and then give our advice accordingly.

Personally, I try to first determine, "Is there an active affair going on, or not?" About 75-90% of the time, there is, at least an EA.

Then, if there is, is this one of the 75% of marriages where the betrayed spouse played a significant contribution in the dysfunction of the marriage, or is it one of the 25% where the cheating spouse is cheating merely out of some combination of boredom, entitlement or "if it feels good do it" mentality?

Because, in my opinion, if you treat one of the 25%'ers with a bunch of "Honey, I knew I was wrong, and please let me try to win you back," you will only make the situation worse.

Puppy

They say hindsight is 20/20. If I could do things differently I certainly would have taken a tougher stance. I let my H yoyo me for 2 1/2 years thinking I could win him back. He would come around, but he never stayed. I am now going through divorce. I am getting on with my life. Yes, I wish my marriage had worked out, but it's time to move on. If I had taken the stance long ago, that I was going to be okay with or without him, things might be different.

I am doing well by the way. Finally, I am definitely getting a life! I do believe H is shocked that I finally dropped the rope, seems to be interested in what I am doing now. I no longer have feelings for him, but it would have been nice in the beginning for him to wonder.

Puppy you are correct. In all cases it seems the only preventative medicine there is, is to try to keep the relationship fresh and exciting. THAT is really hard as kids, and bills, and life pile up. You have to be the guy she dated, not the guy she married 10 or 15 or 20 years ago and has been annoyed with for half of those years.

My wife explained it like this...her affair guy always looks good, is in a good mood, is happy to see her...with me, she accidentally wanders into bathrooms I've smelled up.

Ironically this simple advice is useless here because by the time you get here it is probably too late.

Powerful stuff.

I think the information about how adulterous wives percieve their husbands' attempts at "winning them back" is key: it creates more contempt and disgust on their parts.

Our generation of men already suffers from a lack of masculinity and decisiveness. This has partly caused women to want to leave. Mis-reading the DB philosophy into something that looks like appeasment only makes this worse.

And who do they leave for? Unavailable men who are fun to be with, a little dangerous, and, in effect, treat them like sh*t. They go for men with a more masculine edge.

In all our cases, and yours P17...it seems to be the case that you need to let your adulterous wife stop calling the shots.

Another insightful guy is Cunningham, who talks a lot about male/female attraction and male strength/dangerousness in his ebook Making Her Happy. Check it out.
Theoden

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And who do they leave for? Unavailable men who are fun to be with, a little dangerous, and, in effect, treat them like sh*t. They go for men with a more masculine edge.

sorry, but let me jump in here and state the obvious...I understand the whole "bad boy" masculinity thing. But I would never consider someone who treated me like sh*t to be hyper-masculine. Real strength and masculinity come from having the self-confidence to differentiate, and treat a partner with kindness and respect while still having self-respect. Some women have been misled into thinking that poor treatment means "he really loves me." And that leads down some horrific roads.

Hoosier,

I see your point, but the article is in the context of a bored wife who is looking for emotional/sexual connection. They will tend to look towards unavailable.dangeous men. This form of hyper-masculinity certainly is deformed, but it's a pendulum-swing away from the nice-guy, stable, androgynous, emasculated men they are married to.

This whole topic interestes me. I'm more interested in what particular male/female dynamics have contributed to demise of my marriage than what generic stuff contributed.

Since divorce-busting tends towards a once-size-fits all approach to saving a marriage, it may miss some of the nuances of male/female dynamics.

Michelle points it out somewhat in the "Walk Away Wife" syndrome, but what she doesn't really tell is that when a wife is ready to leave, it's generally harder to turn-around than when a guy is ready to leave. 2/3 - 3/4 of all divorces are intitiated by women. There are notable exceptions (and you, Hoosier are one), but, men tend to stray and women tend to emotionally check-out. I once read an interview by Michelle online where she states it's *extremly* difficult to get a Walk-away wife to turn around.

Quote:

Some women have been misled into thinking that poor treatment means "he really loves me." And that leads down some horrific roads.

Sure it does. It's unhealthy.

BUT....what's interesting, it that poor/erratic treatment that stems from hyper-masculine over-confidence tends to trigger attraction in a lot of women. Alpha-male behavior might be more biologically attractive than we want to admit. The "bad-boy" thing is nothing to be sneezed at. The bad-boy and the "nice-guy" are two distortions of intergrated, healthy, strong, masculinity.

And it seems that most of the guys in our generation, including me, are "nice-guys". Stable? Yes. Kind? Yes. but boring, weak and dis-passionate.

--Theoden

I see what you're saying. Maybe growing up with abuse and chaos has influenced what attracts me in a man, or maybe it's maturity (and I've had quite awhile to ripen!). It is interesting stuff.

Quote:

And it seems that most of the guys in our generation, including me, are "nice-guys". Stable? Yes. Kind? Yes. but boring, weak and dis-passionate.

I'd never call you boring, weak or dispassionate, Theo. Far from it. There's that very solid and strong inner core which is so obvious, and is far from weak.

Hoosier,

Thanks for the vote of confidence....

Interesting articles. I don't have enough information to judge their veracity, but the first book seems genuinely enlightened. The second book is downright demonizing, and I hope there is a better balance out in the real world than what is portrayed. I noticed that many of the examples he cites are from England and Australia.

I think both women and men are attracted to what they can't have. The bad boy sometimes, but I think it is more the forbidden fruit. Certainly, forbidden fruit always tastes the sweetest!

I always think it is an unfair assumption to blame decisions such as infidelity on biology. We are not unthinking animals simply driven by raging hormones. I buy the boredom vs. excitement theory more than biology.

DownNotOut,

Can you tell me something of your story? The little I picked up resonates wit me. I'd also like your thoughts on the first book about Women's Infidelity.

Theo, you're in the alt right? If so we can hook up there. I can put it in your hands of you want.

What do you wanna know about me? I will answer anything, I am just looking for a more specific question so I know what to answer for you

DownNotOut,

Love to connect sometime. There's a policy against posting personal information here.

I'm Theoden King in the alt. I live in New York. And I'm certainly on that book where people like to show their faces.

--Theoden.

Theo wrote

Quote:

BUT....what's interesting, it that poor/erratic treatment that stems from hyper-masculine over-confidence tends to trigger attraction in a lot of women. Alpha-male behavior might be more biologically attractive than we want to admit. The "bad-boy" thing is nothing to be sneezed at. The bad-boy and the "nice-guy" are two distortions of intergrated, healthy, strong, masculinity.

And it seems that most of the guys in our generation, including me, are "nice-guys". Stable? Yes. Kind? Yes. but boring, weak and dis-passionate.

I believe this has been proven to be the case around the time a woman is fertile and relates to the strongest fittest genes that perhaps go hand in hand with 'wolf' like traits. However, I believe there is much more to it than the 'bad boy' image the rest of the 25 days of the month.

For me respect is a huge issue. I respect my H and what he does. For a time we lost respect for one another....now that is back and the affection and love back with it.

My H is not a bad boy, but he has a line you don't want to cross....as I guess so do I.

I wouldn't want to be married to a wimp OR a guy I could walk over. I do want to be in a partnership.