Cheaters?

[smith18]

So I am off work today and I turned on the TV to eat lunch and find that there is this show called Cheaters. Their website is here:

http://www.cheaters.com/

They use surveillance cameras to snoop and then confront infidelity with the betrayed person. After watching for about 5 minutes, I had to turn it off in disgust. Snooping and confronting has its place, but to make a tv show out of it is pretty depraived. And I see from their web site that they have another show coming out called Divorce Party. Ugggh!

Just looking at their web site, it seems like they are covering all aspects of making money from the heartbreak of others. PC recording/monitoring, counseling, divorce lawyers, dating service, pay per view uncensored cheater episodes and a store with cheater hats, tshirts, thongs and pantys. As Charlie Brown would say...Good Grief.

[karen43]

I realize I'm more sensitive and aware of the topic of cheating and divorce, but it sure seems like there's been an increase in that recently and more of an acceptance by a lot of people too.

I'm hoping that at some point, maybe enough of us will get disgusted, and it will return to where D is viewed differently, and more couples spend time avoiding it and not just Ding when times get tough or they get bored or whatever... Karen

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Society needs to return the STIGMA to easy divorce, and especially to adultery.

[smith18]

There must be some middle ground for what the Western world has and the extreme of the Islamic world in regards to cutting down on adultery...

http://osmoothie.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/stoning.jpg

Maybe there should be ethics and honor taught in the schools.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Personally, I think it should be a actionable civil case -- a tort. If you think about it, it's just about the most awful thing one can do to another (short of murder), and it's certainly a violation of a contract.

[antlers]

Personally, I think it should be a actionable civil case -- a tort. If you think about it, it's just about the most awful thing one can do to another (short of murder), and it's certainly a violation of a contract.

I agree!

[Clark_Kent]

OK, i wouldn't put it on the same level as murder, but I would take a step beyond civil case.

I think there should be criminal and civil laws against violating someone's home in this way.

The PROBLEM is there is CONSENT from an ADULT to allow the violation to happen.

I compare this to vandalism of the home, break and enter, burglary, and the like.

I don't consider a spouse to be property, but my point is this...

a. If some creep breaks a window and enters my home, takes my DVD player and splits, they would have criminal charges against them

b..If some creep sneaks into my home through my home PC, talks himself into my wife's pants, and pressures her to leave me and she eventually does, its not an actionable offence by law

Something is wrong there...

How is violating a home, taking a DVD player, and walking away scott free any greater of a crime than violating a home, practically raping someone's wife while she's emotionally vulnerable, and then pressing her to end our union?

This is something the federal government or regional government in most "liberal minded countries" should look at.

I had read somewhere that in Italy you used to be free to even kill any man who violated your marriage like this. Clearly we are turning our noses up at something criminal here.

If someone is bullying my kid over the PC, its a criminal offence, but if I have some creep bullying my marriage and persuading my wife to leave me its ok?

I think any threat to a marriage should be a criminal act, but prompting someone to cheat is high on that ladder in particular.

I mean seriously, if I propositions someone for sex for money its a crime, but if some creep propositions my wife for sex its ok?

How is sex for money a crime but infidelity is not?

My understanding is prostitution is illegal because of the kind of scenarios it generates (pimps, drugs, violence, etc)

But doens't infidelity generate a lot of unhealthy scenarios too?

Lies, financial ruin, divorce, violence (if the men end up in a fist fight), abandoned children, homelessness, loss of employment...

I have read stories about some creep violating someone's marriage and the wife finally coming to her senses, but having to leave her JOB because HE works where she worked.

So, this guy violates their union, their home, practically rapes her, walks away and these people have to clean up the mess. They lose money from waste, have to pay for therapy, she has to quit and take a lower paying job. Their children are hurt for god knows how long.

All of this is not criminal?

Seriously...the government should take some action here.

If some creep did the equivalent damage to my HOUSE that he has done to my marriage my house would be nearly burnt to the ground.

Why is it that the government is so quick to protect physical property from damage but they ignore the emotional and financial damage infidelity does to marriages every day of the week?

Guys, this is criminal. Ask yourself if someone did this to your HOUSE in kind how much damage would be done, and how many criminal offences woudl they be charged with?

[Kalni]

I've watched the show here in Greece late at night at some sleezy stations... It was disgusting. I wonder if it is still on.

Guys, the OP is "INVITED" in the home they are breaking. Sorry to be the one to tell you but... that is the truth. Never heard of a happy wife/husband being FORCED to cheat by the OP.

And Kerry, in Islamic world, ONLY women are punished for adultery, and they punish them with death penalties even when they are raped...
K

[smith18]

I agree that the OP is invited and is only half of the crime.

Kalni, you are correct about the Islamic world being very unfair for women. There probably are not a lot of Muslem guys on this forum.

[Clark_Kent]

Guys, the OP is "INVITED" in the home they are breaking. Sorry to be the one to tell you but... that is the truth. Never heard of a happy wife/husband being FORCED to cheat by the OP.

Happy wife's and husbands cheat too...the rate is LESS OFTEN but they fall prey to the temptation of unsavoury creeps just like unhappy people do.

BEING tempted AND accepting temptation is the problem.

I realise this is partly why its not a criminal offence, but prostitutes tempt men into sex too...there are influences in this world that drive people to do foolish thing :

Drink, Smoke, Cheat, Gamble, etc.

This notion that people are rational ALL THE TIME and that they always make CONSCIOUS decisions should be omitted in some cases...people plead for temporary insanity in court murder trials ... why not in infidelity cases?

I would suggest that the unfaithful spouse merely has to prove they were vulnerable and not capable of making healthy choices for themselves...

The OP is usually the designated driver who decided they should both get drunk and hop in the car rather than taking the person HOME SAFE to their SPOUSE.

I am not suggesting anyone is FORCED to cheat, that word was never used above at all.

My argument is that they are VULNERABLE and the OP exploits that vulnerability.

EVERY WOMAN who has had an affair on this board I have read is very quick to point out how emotionally vulnerable they were when the OP showed up.

Ask whatdidido or others, they will confirm that. Some of them may even advocate criminal charges brought against their OP.

Children are vulnerable, thats why they are protected by law. They aren't expected to make healthy choices for themselves.

But what about adults? When someone's mother dies or their father, or they have a miscarriage or lose their job are they not vulnerable too? Having a creep show up and tempt you into an affair at a troubled time like that is horrible..and in my mind criminal.

Forced? No...exploited?

Definitely

[SpyBunny]

Source: http://marriage.about.com/od/legalities/g/alienationdef.htm

An alienation of affection lawsuit is one in which a spouse can sue a third party if his or her partner leaves the relationship for another person.

To win, an alienation of affection lawsuit needs to prove that:

* Love between the married spouses must have existed.

* The marital love must have been alienated and destroyed.

* The third party's conduct has to be proved to be malicious interference with the marriage relationship.

Most states in the United States have abolished this type of lawsuit as it is considered to be archaic and an unacceptable form of revenge.

Historically, the alienation of affection law was based on the belief that a wife was the property of her husband. Therefore, when a woman was emotionally or sexually involved with another man, she was considered to have been stolen.

Those who want the alienation of affection laws to remain believe that alienation of affection lawsuits protect traditional marriage.
Also Known As:

* Criminal Conversation
* Heart Balm Torts
* Revenge
* Spousal Theft

Examples: As of January 2008, the only states in the United States that allow alienation of affection lawsuits are: Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota, and Utah.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yes, the problem is that the one party (the husband or the wife) consents to the violation of the marriage.

OK, so maybe the wayward SPOUSE should be civilly or criminally liable? I mean, they have violated a contract, no? Which has led to financial hardship and emotional suffering of the betrayed spouse?

Hell, in most states it's not even grounds for divorce anymore. Unbelievable.

Puppy

[Clark_Kent]

Hi Puppy...my thinking was charging the VIOLATING party..not the wayward spouse or the abandoned spouse.

My suggestion was to make the violation of a marriage criminally punishable.

Let me put it this way. If you sleep with a minor, its rape, even if there is consent.

So, why can't we expand this to say, its rape if you sleep with someone who is married or living with someone?

The underage person concented too.

MOST women who have visited here and who have cheated are very quick to admit that they were emotionally volatile at the time and easily manipulated by the third party.

This to me seems along the lines of child molestation or underage rape, or date rape.

Just because a married woman says yes does that mean she's rational and the third party is not doing anything criminal?

Underage girls say yes but it is still a crime, why not wayward spouses with a marriage that's having problems? Why can't we protect spouses like we protect children?

I am not suggesting to charge the sposue, my angle is on the third party.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I know that's what YOU were saying, but I'M saying that the cheating spouse is an adult, and unless you can prove she (or he) is flat-out incapable of making right-and-wrong decisions (plead -- and prove -- insanity, or some other mental illness) that I'm not buying the "ooh, I was weak and manipulated" argument. They're ADULTS, and very different from your molested child example, which is very different.

My point was a different one -- that the CHEATING SPOUSE should be able to be held accountable, legally. At LEAST with a "fault" grounds on the basis of adultery.

Puppy

[sandi2]

Speaking as an almost WAW, I know how wrong "I" was in my EA, and in spite of all that....I still want to be treated as an ADULT who is responsible for her own decisions. Don't put us back a couple of centuries and treat us as if we don't have enough sense to think for ourselves and it takes a court full of men to do it for us. BTW, it may sound like I'm a women's lib here or that I hate men, but not so.

I think many years ago it was breaking the law if M people committed adultry. I'm not sure what the punisment was, but I think that it has been known that men went to jail for adultry. Not sure that H's put their W's in jail b/c she was probably needed at home to do the work too much to rot in jail.

Just passing by and thought you men needed a female touch to the place.

Sandi

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Sandi, not sure who you're responding to, but if you read what I wrote, I AGREE with you that the wayward adult should be treated as an adult, and held accountable for their actions. I'm not buying Clark's assertion of "oh, I was manipulated!"

Puppy

[Kalni]

I dont buy it either. Manipulated? How many times? For how long, over what period of time? And most women and men probably did feel "vulnerable" at some point and opened the door to a third party. I think that we are all human and make mistakes and really I am not the type to judge, especially the cases where it was a mistake (proven by the choices after the affair). But I cant call mistakes the repeatitive cheating and the lying and I cant agree that the WAS had no choice or was temporarily insane. We can all smell trouble when it comes our way.

And by the way, I believe most people at some point in their M hit a low, how come not everyone "breaks the contract" as Puppy says?
It would be so much easier if we could blame it all on the OPs...

Cheating should be a reason for divorce and should affect the financial settlement. It sucks that it doesnt.
K

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I hate the whole "I made a mistake" thing anyway. My wife kept using that term when she was having her affair, and one day I finally called her on it. "Please stop saying it was a 'mistake'," I said. "A mistake is when you leave your car window open all night and it rains, or when you forget to write a check in the checkbook register. Or -- while this wouldn't be right either -- a one-night stand. But what you're doing is waking up every single day, day after day, and DECIDING to continue to have an affair, and to lie to your family about it. That's not a 'mistake' -- that's a CHOICE."

She never did use the "mistake" word again.

Puppy

[sandi2]

Sandi, not sure who you're responding to, but if you read what I wrote, I AGREE with you that the wayward adult should be treated as an adult, and held accountable for their actions. I'm not buying Clark's assertion of "oh, I was manipulated!"

Oh, I forgot to mention that... but yes it was his post. No offense Clark, but JMHO.

I agree with the "making a mistake" thing also. Sin is not a like a "mistake" where you aren't aware of what you're doing. Sin is wrong and it is by one's choice made out of their free will. A mistake is when you mispell a word or add up a row of numbers wrong. WAS get off too easily by saying they made a "mistake" and should be man enough or woman enough to admit it was a sin and that they knew exactly what they were doing. I could have found all kinds of "excuses" for why I got swept into what I did, but never was I at a place that I didn't know what I was doing. Yes, it is very hard to admit that, but truth is truth and let's say it like it is.

Sandi

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yep!

[AlexEN]

Puppy, Sandi...

You are both exactly right on this point; to me it's part-and-parcel of the "passive voice" approach... By saying things just happened or that they were "mistakes", the WAS can absolve themselves of any wrongdoing and don't need to look to others to validate as such a search would lead them to places they might not really want to go...

-AlexEN

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Yep; absolutely.

[Clark_Kent]

ok, let me try to put this another way.

1. I am not absolving WS of accountability.
2. I am not suggesting this is a gender point either, both genders would be handled the same way.

What I am saying is

1. I view this similar to a drug addict and the drug dealer. Many people on this forum who were in affairs have often compared affairs to drug addiction. I believe even you puppy have acknowledged an addiction is in play here...one difficult to fight off.

2. The main person I hold accountable is the drug DEALER, not the addict. Both legally are punishable by law, drug use and the sale thereof. The drug SALE is treated far more harshly. Why? Because the addict is being exploited as much as they are making a choice.

If you hold that affairs are an addiction and the WS is really hooked, then why not show some understanding to that and put a harsher stare at the creep selling the destructive fantasy?

Most of the time WS have affairs because their emotions are in flux...they are vulnerable.

Adults? yes, to the SAME DEGREE as the drug dealer? No.

I actually saw a website once where there was some creep with a SCOREBOARD up on his home page of how many marriages he has ruined. He keeps TRACK and follows their demise...he treats it like a sport.

Puppy you said yourself in another forum that this "friend" of a poster's wife here on this forum...who is separated from his wife...during separation wasn't just a threat, but that he was a "predator". It wasn't too long ago, remember that one? Woudld you hold this guy's wife EQUALLY accuountable as the predator?

I am arguing that these marital predators should be held under far less sympathetic scruitiny.

Better question. What if the couple reconciles? One can hardly charge criminal action against one's spouse during reconcilliation.

Sorry guys I just don't buy this idea that both people in an affair are always on the same level. From my reading and experience there is always one person more in control than the other...in control of the situation...one person pushing for more while the other is more apprehensive.

There seems to be consistently be one "culprit" in many cases.

Adults? Yes, but I offer the WS some sympathy, just like Michele Davis does...if they are so HORRIBLE then why fight for them? If these spouses are so CHILDISH then why pursue a reconcilliation?

Most people here do understand the complexity here. I have read it hundreds of times, they read or spy on their spouse and learn how creepy and manipulative the predatory party is.

Sorry guys, but in these complex affairs I don't view the two as equals.

Lets have a look at a fist fight even...sometimes there's one person more aggressive, more provocative, etc.

You guys need to lighten up on your spouses a bit or you wont' ever get them back.

I even once met someone who WANTED to come on this forum as a WS who was cheating and WANTED to END it...but she could'nt ...why?

Because she read the visceral language used against spouses here and felt like a witch in salemn massachusetts.

Please guys, lighten up a bit and try to understand how sometimes these predators just trash your marriage and exploit your spouse (both genders do it), often they KNOW they are doing it...while your wayward spouse is caught up in some addictive fantasy spun by these monsters.

Open your imagination and your heart a bit please...you want your spouse BACK don't you?

Someone once told me write on this forum as if you are writing to your spouse directly...I think that's something we need to practice more here.

[smith18]

Clark Kent -

For only 4 posts, I am impressed. Something tells me that you are not who we think you are. Could the whole Clark Kent identity be a disguise for a DB superhero?

I actually saw a website once where there was some creep with a SCOREBOARD up on his home page of how many marriages he has ruined.

Some guys just deserve a good a$$ kicking!


According to my XW, the OM had tried to convince her to return to our marriage. I dont know what to believe that comes out of her mouth now. If I saw the wife stealer drowning, would I through him a line. Hard to say. It all depends on what my biorythms were that day.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Puppy you said yourself in another forum that this "friend" of a poster's wife here on this forum...who is separated from his wife...during separation wasn't just a threat, but that he was a "predator". It wasn't too long ago, remember that one? Woudld you hold this guy's wife EQUALLY accuountable as the predator?

Yes.

[Kettricken]

Puppy: Bravo, Amen, and Goodnight.

Clark, with respect, you've lost the plot.

Yes, I have no doubt there are deliberate predators out there. Shame on them, and heaven be their judge. But there are, I daresay, many more people who are simply screwed up, sad, weak, deluded, and lost ..... just like the Walkaways whose spouses post here. Yes, the chemicals of infatuation are powerful persuaders, but that works both ways.

If you have to infantilize your spouse to forgive them, if you have to spin it in your head that they must have been the victim of a predator to speak and act as they did .... then I feel sorry for you and your spouse. Because even if you reconcile, your marriage is built on sand and illusion.

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

[bluerain]

Hey, what does IMHO mean?

I think that you have to be very careful in trying to figure out why the A happens, I think that its very easy to justify the actions of someone you love so that you can keep loving them, but sometimes their actions simply dont deserve to be justified.

I can see how these things happen, sort of track their evolution, but its is NEVER ok to betray your M, and it is always the person who strays fault, the A, not the lack of a healthy M. There are ways out of an unhappy M that do not involve an A.

There is never an excuse, I dont understand how people can turn things around and justify their A's to themselves by convincing themselves how unhappy they were. If you are unhappy, get out, dont cheat. In fact, maybe an A is a symptom of a not so unhappy M, if it was really that bad they would get out. Mental instability not withstanding of course. But thats just my opinion...

[Kettricken]

Also, I was thinking re: the whole "mistake" thing ....

... it really depends on the motivation of the person using the word. "I made a mistake" could mean, "whoopsie, didn't mean it, I want a mulligan, stop blaming me and let's move on." Sure.

But it could also be a word that means, "I made a serious error in judgement, I must have been out of my mind, but I want you to know that I didn't act out of malice to hurt you deliberately."

Context and actions reveal which meaning is intended.

[Clark_Kent]

Clark Kent -

For only 4 posts, I am impressed. Something tells me that you are not who we think you are. Could the whole Clark Kent identity be a disguise for a DB superhero?

I have made more than four posts, I have used several different accounts in my history here. I have been following this forum for years.

Some guys just deserve a good a$$ kicking!

Ass kicking or hard time?

According to my XW, the OM had tried to convince her to return to our marriage. I dont know what to believe that comes out of her mouth now. If I saw the wife stealer drowning, would I through him a line. Hard to say. It all depends on what my biorythms were that day.

I also think when the emotional affair starts, some men and women are honeslty just trying to be a shoulder to cry on. But as often happens things shift into dangerous territory...

I think your xw is referencing something the OM tried to do VERY EARLY ON in their history together. Certainly the OM was not taking that approach while they were having sex.

Your xw may be saying something that is true, but NOT mentioning WHEN...so she's not being fully honest.

It is true that some violating parties DO TRY to help the marriage EARLY ON before the flirting and the sex begins...

The problem is they have no business discussing the intimate details of someone else's marriage or offering counsel - they are not licensed, educated, or experienced enough to handle that kind of task. Most importantly, they do not have the safe guards in place that a professional family therapist will. It is all too easy for "a friend to talk to" to become "someone to fantasize about..."

yes, I believe your wife in part, he may have tried to help at first, but at some point he chose to become a much bigger problem and cast aside any willingness to be part of a solution.

This is often how violating parties make their way in..they offer themselves as informal therapists and counsel. But the talk gets intimate...

I again will point out, the violating party is in authority, similar to a teacher to a student, a doctor to a patient, or a parent to a child.

I am not absolving anyone...I am merely exploring the power structures that take place in sexual affairs.

Men and women are vulnerable when their marriages are falling apart, and if no one is going to protect them damage is often the result.

Should we just ignore what our spouses have done?

No. I wouldn't ignore that anymore than ignoring a drunk driver who cause similar damage to a family.

Obviously, most people on this forum want their spouse BACK...so we have a dilemna...

But in regards to the violating party? They are the bartender who allowed someone to drive home when they could barely stand up...for them i have no sympathy...

Is your spouse accountable? Of course...

Is your spouse bound to their commitments? Of course...

But if you want your spouse BACK, you need to find a way to open yourself up to them when they chose to come back...

When I see all this bitterness I see a wayward spouse mirrored in the eyes of their abandoned partner.

If you let their affair turn you bitter and unforgiving, cold and heartless, angry and childish -- you become THEM.

The core idea of divorce busting is to NOT stoop to your partner's level.

I am wondering how many of you would fall prey to someone of the opposite sex offering you a shoulder to cry on...?

Be careful everyone...

I am not at all advocating affairs or inviting wayward spouses to sweep their actions under a rug. But I am advocating a willingness to accept them back should they chose to come back. You can't be bitter until they do...bitterness is not going to bring them back...nor will mercy...

The most effective approach to dealing with an affair from my experience is to take AWAY your spouse' safety net so they can no longer exploit you. Everyone here has the power to end their spouses affair whenever they want, they just have to LEAVE.

Once you leave the affair is over. You may not get your spouse back, but you are guaranteed your dignity...and it may get your spouse back as well...

Leave and tell your spouse you are willing to accept them back once they end their affair. Or lock your spouse out of your home, either way, take away the safety net, but don't get BITTER.

That's what I did, and it worked. I was always loving, but I refused to allow them to rob me of my dignity.

Take the safety net away, but control your impulse to rage...it is not helping you. I see a lot of rage on this forum...it worries me...

[Clark_Kent]

Clark, with respect, you've lost the plot.

I have lost nothing...

Yes, I have no doubt there are deliberate predators out there. Shame on them, and heaven be their judge. But there are, I daresay, many more people who are simply screwed up, sad, weak, deluded, and lost ..... just like the Walkaways whose spouses post here. Yes, the chemicals of infatuation are powerful persuaders, but that works both ways.

Hmmmm...yes, with a double affair you have two participants who are both predator and prey...a dangerous combination...

Re chemicals of infatuation...the research shows the addiction is on the side of the wayward spouse, not the violating party (in cases of single affairs)

The violating party has a very different set of motivators than the wayward party. Based on the research I have found so far, which is extensive, the addiction is placed hard in the hand of the wayward spouse...

So no, studies have shown it does not go both ways...
[/quote]

If you have to infantilize your spouse to forgive them, if you have to spin it in your head that they must have been the victim of a predator to speak and act as they did .... then I feel sorry for you and your spouse. Because even if you reconcile, your marriage is built on sand and illusion.

No one is infantalizing anyone. I am suggesting we employ understanding. People have times in their lives when their moods are heavily in flux...during the heat of my partner's affair I made mistake after mistake at work...i should have been fired...and was...

My manager knew of my challenges at home, so I was not let go. My manager was employing something you sorely need if you want to understand love anytime again...compassion.

My manager knew MY MOODS where in flux, that MY JUDGEMENT was imparied, that I couldn't THINK straight...so he let my mistakes go...and i worked to correct them.

How is THAT any different than what we should be offering spouses? Can't I offer my spouse the same thing my manager offers me in my workplace?

Seriously...no one is suggesting that you treat your spouse like a child, they are doing a good enough job of that on their own. But I will treat them like a person who has a life, has choices, and has sour moods in flux that will impair good judgement. Couple that with a dangerous voice whispering over your shoulder and I can't help but sympathise for wayward spouses who are remorseful and chose to consider returning.

But what would kind of home would your spouse be returning to? A rather bitter and unforgiving one from my readings here...please work on that...it will help others here find motivation rather than just rage.

I haven't lost the plot, I am afraid you haven't read divorce remedy lately..you clearly have lost THAT plot if you are going to rage at and condemn your spouse and leave a mere stranger to defend them...

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

You will never forgive with an attitude like that, sorry but it doesn't work. Anger begets anger...

I am not sugar coating, I KNOW how much PAIN I was in...but I dont' want to feel that way anymore, and I don't want my spouse to feel that way either...

You are angry and I get that, but anger won't bring back a wayward spouse, never has and never will...

[Clark_Kent]

Hey, what does IMHO mean?
I think that you have to be very careful in trying to figure out why the A happens, I think that its very easy to justify the actions of someone you love so that you can keep loving them, but sometimes their actions simply dont deserve to be justified.

In My Humble Opinion

I am not justifying and I am not suggesting anyone do so. I am suggesting you find a way in your heart to accept love back into your life. Anger and bitterness is not going to accomplish that task.

I can see how these things happen, sort of track their evolution, but its is NEVER ok to betray your M, and it is always the person who strays fault, the A, not the lack of a healthy M. There are ways out of an unhappy M that do not involve an A.

I am in no way suggesting that the health of the marriage justifies an affair. Fault? Sure, that helps bust an affair up...fault finding is a great way to bring a spouse back...

Forgive, its the healthier choice and always will be.

There is never an excuse, I dont understand how people can turn things around and justify their A's to themselves by convincing themselves how unhappy they were. If you are unhappy, get out, dont cheat. In fact, maybe an A is a symptom of a not so unhappy M, if it was really that bad they would get out. Mental instability not withstanding of course. But thats just my opinion...

Yes, affairs are a symptom of an unhappy home, but not a hopeless one.

I am not excusing, I am advocating forgiving...Michele speaks a great deal on this subject...

I am not suggesting excusing an affair...they happen and you can be angry about it, or you can be an adult and work past it.

I don't excuse them, certainly if they are multiple in number, but I will forgive someone I too have hurt in our history together...and I reccomend you all do the same...

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Clark,

You appear to be equating "holding the walkaway accountable" with "bitterness." I agree that sometimes that's the case, but it isn't ALWAYS the case.

It's possible to fully hold them accountable, as adults who made a marriage vow (contract), and not hold bitterness in one's heart toward them.

Not EASY, mind you, but certainly doable.

I think the best metaphor I was given was to "shine a light back toward the marriage." I think that's about right. Bitterness ain't much of a light.

Puppy

[AlexEN]

Clark,

You appear to be equating "holding the walkaway accountable" with "bitterness." I agree that sometimes that's the case, but it isn't ALWAYS the case.

It's possible to fully hold them accountable, as adults who made a marriage vow (contract), and not hold bitterness in one's heart toward them...

Puppy

PDT/Clark,

I think it is possible to do both, too...

In my sitch, I hold W accountable for her affair(s) (but take my share of accountability for an R that made her vulnerable to an affair).

But today, I do have bitterness toward her NOT with respect to the affairs, but with respect to how she is handling her end of the "deal" with respect to how we agreed to have the D-Bomb discussion with the kids.

-AlexEN

[Kettricken]

But what would kind of home would your spouse be returning to? A rather bitter and unforgiving one from my readings here...please work on that...it will help others here find motivation rather than just rage.

I haven't lost the plot, I am afraid you haven't read divorce remedy lately..you clearly have lost THAT plot if you are going to rage at and condemn your spouse and leave a mere stranger to defend them...

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

You will never forgive with an attitude like that, sorry but it doesn't work. Anger begets anger...

I am not sugar coating, I KNOW how much PAIN I was in...but I dont' want to feel that way anymore, and I don't want my spouse to feel that way either...

You are angry and I get that, but anger won't bring back a wayward spouse, never has and never will...

First, I apologize for saying you'd lost the plot. That was snarky and unecessary. As for your quote above, well .... giggle.

You're making a great load of assumptions about my situation, none of which are true. I came to this community through the sex-starved marriage board, my marriage is spectacular now, and neither one of us were ever a walkaway. So the anger and bitterness you are perceiving is ... nonexistent.

I completely agree with you that penitent waywards who are willing to be honest and do some hard work deserve heart-deep forgiveness, not rage and bitterness. And I also agree that even in their full-on wayward phase, honey works a lot better than vinegar.

I just don't think it's (a) emotionally honest, or (b) productive in the long run for the LBS to achieve that mindset by downplaying the spouse's role and demonizing the "outsider". For instance, I don't accept your reasoning that the "amateur therapist" dynamic with an affair partner constitutes a position of power for the affair partner that they are abusing. It's just too big of a stretch. It takes two to tango, and the errant spouse had choices; s/he just made the wrong ones. Can't that simply be forgiven, as is where is, without having to drag all this victim/predator abuse-of-power reasoning into it?

The whole thing just doesn't seem fair, on a human level. Justifying the actions of one's own "tribe" and throwing all the blame on the "other tribe" ... that mindset has led to some pretty disgusting human behavior over the centuries. I don't see why it's any more desirable on the micro level than the macro.

I suppose I can understand needing to think that way for awhile to 'get over the hump' of forgiveness, given the level of pain and betrayal involved. But ultimately, to have an *honest* relationship, each spouse must see, accept, and love each other as they *truly* are, dark places and all, otherwise they are just "forgiving and loving" projections, illusions, and rationalizations ... not the real person. That's not intimacy. In my opinion.

[Clark_Kent]

We are all, every last one of us, capable of terrible betrayals. Of course, it is up to the betrayed spouse whether to forgive or not. But that's a decision that should be made with eyes open and full recognition of the culpability of the transgressor, not a lot of scapegoating and sugarcoating. Otherwise, it's just a lie piled on lies. IMHO.

My eyes are open, I actually believe more open that people who think the predator and wayward spouse's decision-making faculties are on an equal playing field when a wayward spouse's emotions are in maximum flux. Michele points out over and over again in her books about the emotional pit that wayward spouses get into...how hard it is for them to maintain impulse control at that time...not to listen to a word that is said and only half of what you see them do...THIS kind of mindset is NOT the same level headed thinking the predator is in...at all.

You're making a great load of assumptions about my situation, none of which are true. I came to this community through the sex-starved marriage board, my marriage is spectacular now, and neither one of us were ever a walkaway. So the anger and bitterness you are perceiving is ... nonexistent.

And your frame of reference and experience in infidelity is "non-existent"...its a dangerous thing to give advice about something you haven't been through or at least experienced heavily in some way...so you will have to forgive me if I am hesitant to agree with your position...you just havne't been there from what it sounds like...

I completely agree with you that penitent waywards who are willing to be honest and do some hard work deserve heart-deep forgiveness, not rage and bitterness. And I also agree that even in their full-on wayward phase, honey works a lot better than vinegar.

I dunno...I found being nice didn't help much either..what my readings are pointing to is actually showing your spouse that you will walk out on them if they don't stop.

I just don't think it's (a) emotionally honest, or (b) productive in the long run for the LBS to achieve that mindset by downplaying the spouse's role and demonizing the "outsider". For instance, I don't accept your reasoning that the "amateur therapist" dynamic with an affair partner constitutes a position of power for the affair partner that they are abusing.

It's not downplaying..you can assert that point all you like, but from my EXPERIENCE there is a diffrent level of capability to think evenly and maintain impulse control when your home is falling apart...Michele's advice in DR again makes that abundantly clear. Sorry, but the predatory party is much more clear-headed when the affair begins than the wayward spouse usually is...just read DR and that should be pretty clear...

It's just too big of a stretch. It takes two to tango, and the errant spouse had choices; s/he just made the wrong ones. Can't that simply be forgiven, as is where is, without having to drag all this victim/predator abuse-of-power reasoning into it?

Again you are just asserting here...and "it takes two to tango" is just a catchphrase, not an argument.

The reasoning as you put it comes from a careful investigation of the social dynamics of affairs...something you need to read up on more apparently...I have over half a dozen books on the subject...how many do you have?

If you want to argue then make an argument. Someone with their partner not cooperating with them...someone terrified that their marriage is over, someone miserable and alone...someone with so little hope they will turn to sometimes even strangers and pour out all the intimate details of their marital problems...someone so desperate for a relationship they will betray vows made in front of dozens of friends and family...someone so upset they will put their children's family in a huge love triange...is NOT in the same frame of mind as some creep who offers that person a shoulder to cry on and an ear to listen. You can't be serious...you can't honeslty think they are both level headed rational people equally capable of making healthy decisions at that ponit...SOMEONE is more in control...and it is usually the OP.

The whole thing just doesn't seem fair, on a human level. Justifying the actions of one's own "tribe" and throwing all the blame on the "other tribe" ... that mindset has led to some pretty disgusting human behavior over the centuries. I don't see why it's any more desirable on the micro level than the macro.

First, I never said blame, and not all of it either. But more to the point, I think putting some emotional intelligence into trying to understand the social dyanmics of affairs is the FAIREST thing to do...it leads to forgiveness...sometimes

I suppose I can understand needing to think that way for awhile to 'get over the hump' of forgiveness, given the level of pain and betrayal involved. But ultimately, to have an *honest* relationship, each spouse must see, accept, and love each other as they *truly* are, dark places and all, otherwise they are just "forgiving and loving" projections, illusions, and rationalizations ... not the real person. That's not intimacy. In my opinion.

Again you are just asserting using the word "truly"..you have yet to make any argument that any of what I am suggesting is inaccurate other than that you refuse to accept it...but since you haven't been there from my understanding..I can certainly gt how you can't accept this...and that's ok...

When and if (and I certainly hope you don't) you are there, you will get this a lot easier...but seriously...think about it...in many social exchanges one person is more level headed than the other. This is why we FIND friend's to talk through things with...this is why we have therapists, this is why we have family...to help us think when its a struggle for us to do so...

I have spent my whole life wrestling with emotions and trying to stay the course of good sensible conduct...as many people do. I honelsyt can't imagine an affair taking place where both parties were cool level headed rational beings...the mere likley hood of that scenario happening strikes me as near impossible.

"Not Just Friends" is an excellent book to help get started on understanding these dynamics...I would suggest you give that a read.

[runningoutoftime]

I would think the "victim" and "predatory party" could be interchangable. The so-called predator could be just as easily manipulated by the so-called victim.