This is the most trying time in my life. I am feeling so much pain my wife told me back in the beginning of April that she has become emotionally detached from me and she has denied that anyone else is involved even to this day. I have been blindsided by this and It is so painful. I have been reading divorce remedy and doing the coaching. It seems to be working very slowly but what perplexes me is that the continued denial that she is involved emotionally with someone else. I checked the cell phone records for the last 5 months and man am I a fool. She has talked to her coworker many times. But I have noticed that this past month the phone calls have almost cut in half. I am hopeful that this is a positive sign that everything I am doing is working. I know this co worker also and I am unsure whether speaking to him would help or hinder my situation? And when in the process do I discuss the emotional infidelity with her or do I wait for her to bring it up and if she does not then should I let it go? We are going to counseling too and I am not sure it is helping. She won't come clean about it in counseling either. I don't know what to do except leave it alone I guess and do things for myself.
My info is
M 35
W 36
B 6
G 3
M 9.5
I hope others with more experience will come along soon, but all I can say is from my own experience, if you don't have proof I don't know that I would confront her. You said you have been reading dr and doing coaching and that it seems to be working slowly. What positive changes have you seen? Slow progress is fine, it's probably what's expected. If there really is progress confronting her about something that really may not be happening could torpedo your efforts so far.
What exact proof do I need? I just checked our cell phone bills for the first time in 5 months and it shows that jan to feb there were about 14 calls...feb to mar there were 18 calls,mar to apr there were 20 calls and end of april to the end of may there were 12 calls. Now in the end of april is when I started Divorce busting and coaching so I don't know if that is what worked so...Here is the proof...I have a counseling session with the therapist and her on Thurs and my gut says not to bring this up and keep it positive....But when in the process is this brought up?
not to sound depressing, but what makes you think it's only an emotional affair? are you sure that's all it is? i went through the exact same thing. discovered calls, confronted her, she says only a friend. well, today she's moving a block and a half from "friend" in a town 45 minutes from me.
i totally hope for you that's all it is. i'm just playing devil's advocate and wondering what evidence you have that's all it is. good luck.
Jman,
You'll need more proof than that if you want to confront. Does she spend much time on the computer, chatting?
Puppy
Don't just check the call records. Check the texting records as well. You will be amazed!
well I would say, seeing as things seem to be working out for you right now and this affair seems to be coming to an end... maybe its best you let sleeping dogs lie. I mean what do you want more, your wife back or the truth? if you know the truth in your heart already and you even know the person, I am not sure how having her admit it to you right now, when she is still attached to this OP, would help you.
In fact I think it would do the opposite and you will make her run if you push this. If she is very ashamed of herself she wont want to admit to it. if you confront her and force the issue that forces her to face her shame - so she'll run away from you, in an attempt to run away from that shame.
You have to remind yourself here that just because she hasnt admitted it to you doesnt mean she isnt hurting over it and wont pay for it, because beleive me, the more time goes on and the more detachment she gets from the OP, the worse she is going to feel. I feel pretty sure that admitting to the affair can inded be very beneficial but not until OP has GONE. once hes GONE, hes no longer a threat. It can take about 18m to 2 years after an affair for the cheater to feel so guilty and so sorrowful for their actions they finally admit it to you. And in the end they admit it for THEIR sakes not yours; by then beleive me, if your M is going strong, you wont want to hear it! but the guilt tends to gather momentum as the cheater falls back in love with their partner. it becomes quite stressful and always in the mind that there is this UNTRUTH between you.
honestly even when confronted with hard solid evidence its not uncommon for the cheater to firmly deny it - very firmly. they are afraid. and when your M is already on rocky ground you probably dont need to take that risk. Think of him like a shadow. you want him to go away.
the only time id say the opposite is when the cheater wont stop.../ when it just continues on and on and is hurting, and there is no way the M can heal as the deceit continues. but right now, you have pretty strong evidence shes really trying. They wean themselves from the OP, because 1) it really is like a drug and 2) the OP is really, really hurt and p'd off. so guilt keeps them in contact. of course that not good and makes you feel bad, but just remember, as the OP isnt getting his way right now, you can be the smart one and let him do your good work for you!
FF,
I guess you're seeing a different "try" from her than I am. I see a wayward wife still apparently in contact with OM, and as long as she's getting at least SOME "fix" from that drug, she's never going to be emotionally available to her husband.
I also think it's damned near impossible for true reconcilation to happen on a foundation of deceit. Unless and until the two spouses can be fully honest with each other, how can they possibly begin to do the difficult work of reconciliation? Reconciliation in cases where infidelity was involved require different types of work, no?
Puppy
Hey pup
everything you say is true, but beleive me, its a rare thing INDEED for a woman having an affair to break off ALL contact with the OM straight away. Really even if she claims that its probably unlikely, bc shes now got guilt over the OM. ALSO, men HATE LOSING (now I know you know this) and so, the OM is generally jacking up and acting all hurt and horrified and disbelieving, much like oh, a married man would!
so hes asking questions and asking does HE have a chance in fact hes asking everything a SPOUSE does. the OM is just as addicted to the wife as the cheating wife is to him. Its nice to think its all just sex with the OM, but seriously, thats rarely true. The ugly truth about affairs is, they tend to grow tentacles of emotions and fantasy, and thats hard to let go of. The wife tends to seek 'closure' and 'forgiveness' from the OM. YES ITS DANGEROUS and its scary and not fair to the H. but H should just accept this is probably the case - and for a SHORT TIME - try to ride THRU IT - because guess what??
phych 101 Pup, the OM is gonna turn into the SPOUSE; hes going to whinge and whine and bitch like no tomorrow and guess what, hes going to get ANGRY. if you are a SMART MAN, it might be best to just let this happen. Let it come to a nasty end. Do you see what im saying?
OF COURSE we would all PREFER our spouse immediately ceased contact with the OP right NOW (and we all demanded it. we are, after all, humans.) but dont let the knowledge that probably didnt happen drive you insane - because quite frankly, better the OM undoes himself and turns the relationship SOUR and into a BAD memory.
thats what I mean about
LETTING THE OP DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU.
it can be done if your smart and can hang thru it. believe me star crossed lovers are sickening. better the two of them face reality and hard conversations and sadness and tears JUST LIKE YOU DID. let the REALITY begin and the FANTASY die.
yea you have the fear it'll start up again and it MAY, but overall, the tarnish is setting in - wife is lying and clearly is telling her SPOUSE and FAMILY she wants it to work - no more fantasy about the hard done by badly treated woman who desperately needs to be saved.
get it?
Im going to add here that with no sad nasty ending, your wife will be JUST as uemotionally unavailble - possibly for a longer time - after all she has the FANTASY that will live on doesnt she. soemtimes a nasty end is the best thing that can happen... for all!
I get it, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I would be inclined to agree with you if one has good intel that is indicating to them that OM/OW is melting down, getting needy/clingy, etc., but in the absence of that I think one has to err on the side of insisting on no-contact and as ironclad of a transparency plan as possible (and I realize that none are fully bullet-proof).
Puppy
well, all i can say is, its a true pleasure to watch a relationship die and know its really dead. its not a pleasure to be denied and truthfully, can be worth the risk.
the fantasy, if allowed to live on and continue in the mind, can do so much untold damage, and you will not reconnect to your wife any quicker. she still holds him up as prince galahad in her head.
sometimes we need to be strong enough to let people take a fall, and hope that fall happens - with a few well planned and thought out ideas to rush it along of course. I would rather compete with a dead and buried relationship that failed than the ghost of mr or mrs perfect, in their mind, because they never had to do it rough.
worth at least some thought.
winning is good, but winning in the heart and soul by truth is ultimately more worth it than winning thru force alone - tho I am the FIRST PERSON to admit a measure of force is needed for self respect and healing; but if you already know about the affair and you have already decided in your mind to beat it and forgive it, then deciding to make that extra step to take a big GAMBLE in life that its going to mess up on its own given enough time and rope, isnt a bad option.
I would rather have someone want me as a first choice, not a second choice. and if i knew i was second choice, I would want to walk away. And ultimately, thats exactly what can and does happen in relationships where an affair was outed and dealt with hard but not finished.
eventually 2 things happen : 1) the cheater still pines over their 'lost love' and 20 the spouse gets really tired and finally, begins to get angry. that isnt adding up to a great start at a brand new life together.
but thats not for everyone. everything i say is subjective and must be weighed accordingly. you have to know whats right for you and your own partnership. im only pointing out some perils. and some options. thats all.
Hey pup
everything you say is true, but beleive me, its a rare thing INDEED for a woman having an affair to break off ALL contact with the OM straight away. Really even if she claims that its probably unlikely, bc shes now got guilt over the OM. ALSO, men HATE LOSING (now I know you know this) and so, the OM is generally jacking up and acting all hurt and horrified and disbelieving, much like oh, a married man would!
so hes asking questions and asking does HE have a chance in fact hes asking everything a SPOUSE does. the OM is just as addicted to the wife as the cheating wife is to him. Its nice to think its all just sex with the OM, but seriously, thats rarely true. The ugly truth about affairs is, they tend to grow tentacles of emotions and fantasy, and thats hard to let go of. The wife tends to seek 'closure' and 'forgiveness' from the OM. YES ITS DANGEROUS and its scary and not fair to the H. but H should just accept this is probably the case - and for a SHORT TIME - try to ride THRU IT - because guess what??
phych 101 Pup, the OM is gonna turn into the SPOUSE; hes going to whinge and whine and bitch like no tomorrow and guess what, hes going to get ANGRY. if you are a SMART MAN, it might be best to just let this happen. Let it come to a nasty end. Do you see what im saying?
OF COURSE we would all PREFER our spouse immediately ceased contact with the OP right NOW (and we all demanded it. we are, after all, humans.) but dont let the knowledge that probably didnt happen drive you insane - because quite frankly, better the OM undoes himself and turns the relationship SOUR and into a BAD memory.
thats what I mean about
LETTING THE OP DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU.
it can be done if your smart and can hang thru it. believe me star crossed lovers are sickening. better the two of them face reality and hard conversations and sadness and tears JUST LIKE YOU DID. let the REALITY begin and the FANTASY die.
yea you have the fear it'll start up again and it MAY, but overall, the tarnish is setting in - wife is lying and clearly is telling her SPOUSE and FAMILY she wants it to work - no more fantasy about the hard done by badly treated woman who desperately needs to be saved.
get it?
Im going to add here that with no sad nasty ending, your wife will be JUST as uemotionally unavailble - possibly for a longer time - after all she has the FANTASY that will live on doesnt she. soemtimes a nasty end is the best thing that can happen... for all!
absolutely agreed. you have to be smart an work smart and be fairly confident that its wearing down. that the contact is certainly NOT happening as much if at all. ie it can pay off, if you have made your demand, shes agreed (however reluctantly) and you have either confronted OM or she had TOLD OM its over
(btw I would never do it unless I was reasonably assured that HAD HAPPENED.)
but if if it has and shes back and OM knows your now a contender again and shes SUPPOSED to be working on her marriage and HE KNOWS ALL THIS...
then learn to overlook the liklihood they're still emailing for a while. it'll come to a bad end by itself and its not a bad thing. ie dont freak out about the idea - not in the early days - dont or she could run again - play it COOL and hope hes becoming the SPOUSE and acting out. he probably is
remember you wanna look like the preferred good guy... *rubs hands and looks shifty*. and there you are saying "HI HONEY how was your day?" and rubbing her feet after yet another argument with OP for freaking OUT about her choice...
so sad for OP right.... not
Fighthing fit, this is so confusing..you see this guy she is talking too she has known a long time. She has always had guy friends prior to our relationship and throughout our relationship. It is possible that something happened at one point but know she is talking to him for support. This does not make it any better because she is not communicating with me and trying to make things better with me. This is where my confusion comes in. So he may not be pursuing her anymore and waiting to fall on his face to screw up..This is the dilema I am thinking now...
OK... correct me if I am WRONG but didnt you say this guy is like, states away, so, therefore, one would suppose, the chance of getting physical isnt that huge.?? no/yes?
its all about physicality, I dont care how huge am EA is at the end of the day if it cant get physical its GOING TO COME TO AN END, sooner or later... thats just our biological makeup
i think yes you should be INSISTENT it ends I think yes you should make some hard core threats about MAKING it end (ie outing it, talking about it, confronting him). THAT MIGHT be enough. in either case you have to deal with it, and try to bring that to a head for your own peace.
i do think you have to be firm and tough but I also think you have to give her the chance, if its only EMOTIONAL and SUPPORT as you say (and it might be if hes far off) to give it the chance to die a natural death. but you have to do both things at once - be really FIRM and STRONG in telling her she must END it and COMMIT but also be forgiving and understanding of WHAT HAS PASSED as long as it ends.
to be totally clean with you I think in these situations of EA's that are UNLIKELY to develop above fantasy (ie distance) to just firmly demand it finishes or you confront and expose the entire thing to all... including to HIM... it can be frightening there is no doubts. so you can TRY it but you have to be really strong about it but not in a really "im going to get you" way. just in a "im fighting and prepared to fight hard" way. and DONT expose ANYTHING if you think SHE IS REALLY TRYING.
you seem to think she IS. if you do and you know hes miles away then yea it might be best to stop harping on it but keep insisting you want it over, and that you expect it to be over, rather than just hard coring and exposing it all RIGHT NOW. i wouldnt until I had threatened to do so a fair bit to see if that scare alone worked, in your sitch. it often has great results.
shes not responding to you bc shes still attached but it doesnt mean the end of all hope for you, shes a human being it takes time to detach from someone, but if you are the one THERE and consistent but not BEGGING, then where is HE, an EA can only carry on during communcations not during EVERY DAY. you win in that regard.
dont act needy dont act desperate act like "this is it or else". be a man about it. call her bluff! but dont go off doing something rash like say, telling her parents, when it MIGHT end just with the bluff. then she has something to be grateful for doesnt she. and so she should be.
but if if it has and shes back and OM knows your now a contender again and shes SUPPOSED to be working on her marriage and HE KNOWS ALL THIS...
then learn to overlook the liklihood they're still emailing for a while. it'll come to a bad end by itself and its not a bad thing. ie dont freak out about the idea - not in the early days - dont or she could run again -
FF, with all due respect, I think you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You cannot simultaneously warn LBSs on here about the dangerous conflagrations of affairs, and also say "learn to overlook that your pyromaniac wayward spouse is playing with the matches a little bit again."
Just seems incongruous to me.
It's also a physiological fact what happens when contact is allowed to happen -- even e-mail, even something BAD about their formerly-wonderful OM/OW. The brain's endorphines re-fire, and then the withdrawal "clock" in his wife gets re-set back to 0:00 again.
Contact is contact, and it's damaging to the marriage, and her deceit about it is even more damaging -- in my opinion. Wildfires do eventually "die a natural death," but sometimes it's only after doing unimaginable damage and destruction.
Puppy
This guy is not states away...he is a coworker she sees 4 out of the 7 days a week...
....
my mistake... I thought he was really far off.
and soz to disagree pup but yea I think distance makes all the diff - you CAN decide to discern to be more relaxed and patient if you know its not an "easy" fix for them to be together you can afford to give them time to 'end it', tearfully or not - as long as they DO. im not saying 'allow' anything. heck no - id demand it ended - what im saying tho, is to not drive yourself INSANE about the thought they might be still saying their sad goodbyes - have a bit of tolerence IF the wife has shown STRONG SIGNS of ending it and you know that. that is all
but ok no if this guy is prevalent in your life you better confront him; tell her you intend to; then do so. make demands. its completely disrespectful to you. its not right for you as a man and no you should not be putting up with anything or tolerating ANYTHING when there is so much room for contact. no one should ever put up with that... there is nothing but her word to go on and the word alone isnt enough when physical contact is easily had.
I want to thank everyone for the info they have provided...After praying and reflecting on this I have decided not to say anything about what is going on. I feel that I need to stay positive in this situation and if I make her feel threatened in anyway she will shut down even more and the progress I have made thus far will have been wasted..She is fighting her own demons inside right now and I don't want to add to that...I will keep everyone posted as to what progresses, so please keep me in your prayers as I go on this journey hopefully towards reconciliation with my marriage..
Thank you and God Bless
Jeff M
OK. I think you're making a big mistake, but OK. It is only when waywards feel "threatened" that they DO anything, actually. But if this is what you feel led to do, after prayer, then I respect your decision.
Puppy
I dont know about a mistake - I think people and relationships are so individual, its impossible to say. maybe it will work, an if your a faithful man, then you may have the view that 'giving it up to god' is the best possible thing you can do for YOU...
pup not everyone has the fighting "gimme your best shot" dancing pose we do in life *grins* and sometimes I do wonder if I'd be better off the same, I bet I woulda missed a lot of emotional 'black eyes' LOL.
good luck in either case... hold onto you.
Hey Guys,
I just wanted to update everyone...The calls are still going on and my wife still has not decided what she wants to do with the relationship...I have changed myself into someone I really enjoy now and IDK what else to do...I just know that I have written proof that something did happen with her due to an email I was able to gain access to and I am following the DR as much as i can...I had a great 4th today with the kids and am Blessed to have had a safe 4th...I had to come back to this forum today bc I had thoughts in my head to expose this affair to everyone at her work and her family so that I am not looked at as the bad guy here..but after re reading this forum I won't do that...
Hey Guys,
I just wanted to update everyone...The calls are still going on . . . I just know that I have written proof that something did happen with her due to an email I was able to gain access to ...
So in other words, it's not working.
Why not try something different?
Puppy
Puppy, I read your thread in the other forum and I believe there will be a time and place for this...I have already told her that I trusted her, So now I am going to re neg on me trusting her..Look at how that sounds??? I am just perplexed and getting alot of info right now...
What has she done to earn your trust?
NOTHING....NOTHING at all....That is the Shi--- part about it....I guess I am and have been the nice guy all this time that now I have to be a hard ass about things...I was taught to respect women but heck If I cant respect myself then what? I am not going to let her walk over me anymore...I just need help doing it correctly and not being an a-- about it...
Jman, it's not about being "nice" vs. being a "hard-ass." It's about strength and consistency. About setting (and enforcing) healthy boundaries for yourself, and standing up for yourself.
I personally am not big on all the self-help psychological gobbledegook. "Speak the truth, in love" has always served me well.
Someone asked Ronald Reagan once if he trusted the Soviets. He said that one should "trust, but verify." I think that's about right.
Puppy
Jman, it's not about being "nice" vs. being a "hard-ass." It's about strength and consistency. About setting (and enforcing) healthy boundaries for yourself, and standing up for yourself.
Puppy
I agree. I still think I try to be a good & fair person, but not let people walk all over me in the process. Self-defense kind of instead of aggression.
Is there examples in the forums that anyone knows about that relates to confronting their spouse when they deny having an A and the fact of confronting them when the A is going on?
I trusted my wife for 29 years after I found 100's phone calls back and forth in her cell call history with the manager of the supermarket. I haven't confronted him, but I did asked her to stop it. She did, I still trust her but I haven't stopped doing my "survillance" work. Don't give up. Verify and make sure there is not communication or contact of any kind AT ALL. This is month number 11 after the Discovery Day. Big positive changes had happened in our house and still applying what I learn with this amazing DB book. I sometimes feel like I should stop and let it go and forget about it. But this OP still the manager of the local Supermarket and I feel unconfortable. She is going to a different one. Sometimes we go together and sometimes I do the shopping myself. We even exchange cellular phones, she uses mine , I use her. So far so good, but I still dont' trust anybody until at least she admit it. Because like in Jman case, my wife said that was nothing, just some friendly phone calls. And by the way, the OM is married. At this point, I haven't expose the affair to the OMW. I don't know if I should do it...God bless all...and good luck!
Why should she be the only one (of the four) to NOT know the truth???
That doesn't seem fair to me.
Puppy
Puppy, any advise on how do I do this? I know their home address. May I send an anonimous letter to her? What would you suggest. I don't have her phone number. I know where they live. Thanks in advance.
Hey Puppy or anyone? Did anyone ever consider leaving as a check to reality about the WAS who is having an EA? Does this work or not??? anyone have any experience with this?
Can you be more specific? I'm not understanding your question fully.
Puppy
J,
It didn't work for me. If your WAW is deeply involved with OM, EA or PA, she will likely twist anything you say or do into supporting her own ends. She will see it only her way. Better to stay and stand your ground, not be seen as abandoning your wife/family.
What I am talking about is if I decided to waw from the house. I am thinking that this may cause her to realize what it may be like w/o me.
I would check with a family law attorney before doing that. It may be considered to be marital or family "abandonment", legally, if you do that.
Whoa that is not what I meant but anyway I am going to talk to my coach tomorrow and try a different strategy bc things have gotten worse. I was reading one of your other posts about EA's and like u posted on mine she needs to stop the EA before anything can go on in our relationship. Puppy how do I get her to stop the A?!!!
Jman, just wanted to offer my sitch as an example.
When I first discovered BF was cheating I tried being the better person and waiting for the A to burn itself out. This wreaked havoc on my self esteem. After a couple months of being separated in the same house I kicked BF out of the house. He moved in with OW and I assumed we were through. I was moving forward with my life and happy pursuing GAL activities. About a month later and no contact other than business related emails he started asking to come over and see me. I refused and he kept asking to come over to see the cats. He had moved into his own apt but was still seeing OW. I told him no contact with her was a prerequisite to speaking ith me. Eventually that happened and we started piecing in April. He moved back into our house a few weeks ago and things are going well.
You can go back and read through my threads for all the details, but just wanted to show you that drawing boundaries and enforcing them does work. It's different for everyone but for me, throwing the cheater out was the best thing I could have done for myself and for the R.
What I am talking about is if I decided to waw from the house. I am thinking that this may cause her to realize what it may be like w/o me.
sure she'll like that. all the benefits of you paying for everything without you being around to interfere with her fantasy.
Thanks everyone for your input...I am not going to do this..I definitely will make it easier for her DUH!!!!
So anyway...what I am wondering again is that should I call her out on the EA that I know of and unknown if she had PA?
You see I have an email that shows something poss happened one night when she went out with her coworker...I have never brought it to her attention bc I was worried about it at the time..you see she was my emotional blanket and I have reached a point now that I am not wanting her to be in control anymore..I want to take the reins back...I have phone records too that show proof of atleast a continuation of an EA to this day...I am tired of being the nice guy while she continues to be confused and not wanting to make a decision if she wants to reconcile our M...I have been dealing with this since March and going to counseling has been a waste of time for the both of us bc it has always been about me and how I supposedly contributed to her ED...well I am resp for my behavior in our relationship but not the guilt she is carying for continuing to have an EA with her coworker!!
I have had this email since May and am wondering is it ever too late to bring something like this up??
Any and all comments from everyone would be appreciated..