Divorcebusting.com
Im on this forum for my own issues but I notice others pain. Once, I had an affair; when we were 12 years into our marriage. I married at 18 years old to my ONLY LOVE and ONLY BOYFRIEND. we had three chilren.

did we recover? um well 4 years later he walked out so... even tho I thought we'd worked thru it, probably not. I think even HE thought so at the time. WARNING: this takes a lot to get over and much more than a willingness of wife to make it better. this stuff FESTERS. be careful. once the dust blows down and wife is sorry, amazing how ANGRY you'll get. and I betcha wont tell her. so WORK on yourself after.

What I am here to do tho, is honestly answer your questions about it if you have any. If you want to know what its like, what goes thru her mind, how it feels, how the guilt is, and what works to MAKE IT END... I pretty much can tell you all that stuff.

I can also try to explain to you the detachment of wife, and the fact she doesnt actually think you NOTICE THAT MUCH (trust me). Women really fool themselves about this, thinking they're doing a pretty good job hiding their detachment quite well! I thought i was an amazing liar. WOW. FAIL. no i wasnt.

I can explain the drug of the OM, tricks the OM will employ to keep your wife interested and coming back for more AND I can tell you what snapped ME out of my affair. every sitch is completely different, but I wanted to given an honest viewpoint from one whose walked in those shoes, to any itnerested.

FACT: if you cheat, you will pay for it later on. There is no ifs or buts or 'maybes'. you will pay, pay, and then pay some more. you will pay in guilt, you will pay in shame, you will pay in a lack of self respect; you will lose status in every aspect of your life. I try a lot now, to let people considering straying, to understand these things. Hiding an affair is ridiculous. in the end every single person knows including your family, parents, and kids. but, this is something HARD LEARNED, and no one wants to ADMIT they learnt the hard way so no one actually gets TOLD by someone who IT HAPPENED TO. its a pity bc the more people who open up about this the more healing there will be

im tellin \:\)
Hi FF, Thank you for posting here, you information and insight would be very interesting to hear.

WARNING: this takes a lot to get over and much more than a willingness of wife to make it better. this stuff FESTERS. be careful. once the dust blows down and wife is sorry, amazing how ANGRY you'll get. and I betcha wont tell her. so WORK on yourself after.

Is it something you can TOTALLY get over as my W is involved with OM, we are divorcing and she is totally focused at the moment. No reconcilliation is possible at the moment.


What I am here to do tho, is honestly answer your questions about it if you have any. If you want to know what its like, what goes thru her mind, how it feels, how the guilt is, and what works to MAKE IT END... I pretty much can tell you all that stuff.

How does a Walk Away Wife feel, goes through her mind, guilt, and most importantly to MAKE IT END

I can also try to explain to you the detachment of wife, and the fact she doesnt actually think you NOTICE THAT MUCH (trust me). Women really fool themselves about this, thinking they're doing a pretty good job hiding their detachment quite well! I thought i was an amazing liar. WOW. FAIL. no i wasnt.


What do you mean by a wife does not actually think you NOTICE THAT MUCH, Hiding detachment. My W tries to contact me most days, most of it about the children, other stuff not that important. I think she still wants to try and control my life, not because she cares which seems strange for someone who id divorcing me.

I can explain the drug of the OM, tricks the OM will employ to keep your wife interested and coming back for more AND I can tell you what snapped ME out of my affair. every sitch is completely different, but I wanted to given an honest viewpoint from one whose walked in those shoes, to any itnerested.

I would be very interested here to know ALL of the above. I do not know anything about the OM, but a general womans viewpoint would be interesting to hear, particularly what snapped you out of the affair.

FACT: if you cheat, you will pay for it later on. There is no ifs or buts or 'maybes'. you will pay, pay, and then pay some more. you will pay in guilt, you will pay in shame, you will pay in a lack of self respect; you will lose status in every aspect of your life. I try a lot now, to let people considering straying, to understand these things. Hiding an affair is ridiculous. in the end every single person knows including your family, parents, and kids. but, this is something HARD LEARNED, and no one wants to ADMIT they learnt the hard way so no one actually gets TOLD by someone who IT HAPPENED TO. its a pity bc the more people who open up about this the more healing there will be

My wife is in a fog but she is hiding her affair very well by going away from the local area, says she is staying with friends, turns her mobile off etc, etc. I believe she does not want to lose face with me, her family and friends, but what will happen I believe is this OM will appear all of a sudden once we are divorced after a short period of time. I might be wrong, but this is what I believe will happen.

FF, I look forward to your response.
Your wife wants to keep in constant contact with you to keep her options open. I cant put it any more bluntly than that. If it all goes pear shaped later on, she hopes you'll be there for her. People in affairs are selfish.

Your wife thinks she is fooling you pretty well by being caring, and speaking with you, and interacting with you, an that maybe you'll hope and keep hoping, so she can keep you on a string. she also thinks you might not notice that its mostly fake

the drug of the OM is that he is everything you are not, and I do mean everything; picture a man completely the opposite of you, and I guarantee thats the OM. this is both positive and negative. MOST OM's aren't very strong men; they are an OM for a reason. remember, an OM (or an OW) is a person who is trying to take from someone else and not caring they are interefering in a family; that says something right there. a lot of OM's feel pride in taking a woman who is 'taken'. they feel quite manly being the one 'she runs to'. They fool themselves into thinking they are the ones who satsify her, on all levels. We, as the affair person, LET them think all this out of guilt (but mostly its untrue.)

Yr wife is with the OM bc hes free and happy and can give her all the attention she wants whenever she wants it, and she has ALL the control in the relationship. he is in full "courting" mode, full 'male chasing' mode. (this applies to ows). For him its become a bit of a challenge really and he loves feeling superior. its my opinion people that let themselves become OP's get ADDICTED to the ego inflation of being "the one" who can "make it right" and "do the right things". they dont understand the affair person is mostly in the glow of romantic love and lets them think that ... its not a realism.

The OM you are dealing with knows he has you for competition (even if you arent competing.) he will go all out and do everything to be "the better man". hes able to do this pretty easily right now bc they arent living together and neither person has to actually deal with REAL LIFE. He still sees her as a conquest and when the OP still sees you as the conquest, they are super romantic, super strong, super loving and super everything; easy to do in this mode - not so easy when real life intrudes.

Your wife probably feels a lot of shame in what she had done and is doing and she would be inflaming the OM by coming and going emotionally, ending it one day and falling into his arms the next. UNDERSTAND? this is the basis of their current relationship. DRAMA

and he wants to win... DRAMA

She wants to be a good person... DRAMA

basically break out the violins and cellos bc while the whole thing plays out, both parties are in fantasy land, he thinking shes torn and in a terrible place and he wants to 'save' your wife, he tells himself this every day to justify himself (applies to ows). you are a rotten person who doesnt know what hes got or how lucky you are, whereas OM does and would treat her right (more drama)and he keeps telling her this, and seeing as hes only getting one half of the story and the OM in the first place can we say B I A S E D. everyone likes to feel like an ANGEL and OM (and ow) tells themselves they are JUST THAT

meanwhile OM (or ow) doesnt realise the person in the affair is a selfish A HOLE who is taking full advantage of all this and ENJOYING all the attention from both men (or women) and sucking up the LOVE and just LOVING LIFE while being ever so entertained and diverted by the DRAMA of the whole thing, so much more exciting than REAL LIFE was, this is ADDICTIVE.

Sex is awesome bc sex is desperate and needy and grabbed and its different for the first time in years, and finally someone else sees how beautiful you are, when you havent heard that for years with sincerity, someone WANTS you, someone LUSTS AFTER YOU, and you cant remember feeling LUSTED after for an eon. its a DRUG. Even if hes not any better in bed than husband technically, emotionally, its EXPLOSIVE stuff. (i bet hes no better technically, years bring experience, but the emotions take over.)

EVEN WHEN THE AFFAIR MIGHT END, the emotional affair can continue, and the OM (or OW) welcomes this always hoping for a reconciliation bc they TOO became addicted to being needed all the time and the savior and they havent GIVEN UP on SAVING YOU. they think it MIGHT STILL HAPPEN after all you have so MUCH together.

In reality all the affair person has with the OM (or ow) is a lot of emotional crap that is mostly self indulgent and complete utter bulldust, bitter one sided views and news and a LOT OF LIES to make the OM (or OW) feel better about the whole thing.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE PHYSICAL AFFAIR IS OVER

(not always but a lot.)

the emotional affair continues, often online, often in clandestine emails, the lovers desperately contact one another expressing so much regret and desire for the other but it just "wasn't meant to be". the person who had the affair is sitll in a complete FOG of unreality and regretting giving up the OP who gave them so much emotionally, fed their souls,lit them on fire physically (due to the DRAMA) and hung on their every single utter WORD.

HOW AMAZING it was to be so completely wanted, and desired, and constantly thought about, this person is PINING for you and NEEDS you and they wanted to BE WITH YOU and be your EVERYTHING and maybe you made a BIG MISTAKE.

but you tell yourself you are doing the right thing and trying to work on your marriage when in fact your not working on it at all your still caught up in the DRAMA OF YOUR LOST LOVE, and this is not LOST on your w or h, who can READ you ever so much more better than you THINK after all these years, and sees you sad and melancholy and your regret, and BURNS inside.

You as the affair person are OBLIVIOUS to their pain, their knowing, and their utter sorrow that YOU seem to still be in LOVE with the OP. If asked the affair person will deny it and naysay it but they keep staring out windows. listening to sad songs; staring off into space.

The w or h has to put up with this for an UNTOLD time swallowing their prides, telling themselves its all worth it, saying "they're back, thats all that matters". inside they are falling apart and their egos are destroyed. In their gratefulness to have their partner back they overlook all the hurt, all the sighs and obvious discontent, and try to change themselves inside out to make them happy, questioning everything on the inside and too scared to voice it outwardly, incase they run again.

MEANWHILE... the w or h may start to come out of their fog, come around to see their partner, fall in love again, and be desperately sorry. this does happen. but they dont see the damage they did, they dont see the huge pain they caused which went suffering so long with nothing, they dont SEE that their PARTNER who tried for SO LONG and SO HARD to win them back is gradually losing heart, gradually being eroded, gradually questioning if they dont deserve MORE.

AND SO the person cheated on can end up, in a few years time after the AFFAIR, to be the ones discontented, the ones unhappy, the ones looking for answers in OP's.

it can be a full circle and this is my warning, even those who desperately think they want their H or W back can become eroded over time waiting for their H or W to love them again.. and what if you find someone who loves YOU in the meantime.

then its over.

this is what the person who has the affair does not realise or understand and might not, til its alll too late. In the end all sufferer's of affairs need to talk about it and finally let go of all those feelings of resentment and if you dont do it DURING you will do it LATER ON and WOOSH tables reversed.
FF,

A great insight into how a WAS feels and does.

One thing though, how do you bust the affair?

Mark
I can only speak from a mans viewpoint on ME personally. I failed to bust the affair with OW with my husband so I cannot give advice there whatsoever - I failed.

What worked on me was him telling me outright it was over and he never wanted to see or speak to me ever again as long as the affair continued. I got VERY AFRAID - remember we had kids together and he was basically saying, I will not SEE you or SPEAK to you even in relation to the kids - I will go thru someone else to get to you; I wont TOLERATE you.

he literally LAID IT DOWN and frightened the living crap out of me. he said he was DONE and if I didnt give up the OM he was COMPLETELY thru with me and get this: he said: YOU WILL NEVER HEAR FROM ME EVER AGAIN. EVER. he told me he would initiate a "go between" for the kids and I would have NO ACCESS to him, his contact details NOTHING.

He took a very hard line and it shook me up so much I ended the affair IMMEDIATELY. i couldnt imagine not ever seeing or speaking to my husband, ever AGAIN but i saw in his eyes - he meant every single word of it. He stood up to me and toe to toe and to give him this, I KNOW to this day he meant every single word of what he spoke; he wasnt one to say such lightly. SOME women (pls dont bash me im just saying some) NEED direction to snap them out of it and I was just such a lost soul who NEEDED to be given a hard line; it WORKED on me. I would not say it would for everyone; but in my husbands case I knew he would follow thru with this, and this was someone i knew for 20 years. I couldnt imagine for a SECOND not being able to contact him or speak to him AT ALL.

so i ended it. but not without emotional angst of course and a lot of carrying on that I thought he couldnt 'see'. he saw alright. a lot more than I thought. no one ever gets that. I thnk that applies to both women and men.

ITS TRUE in my opinion today that sometimes the utter complete HARD LINE might need to come (not so much for women to men, as men are more likely to call your bluff, but defintely so with men to women.) WOMEN are emotional creatures and also creatures of the PAST. we cant get OVER the whole IDEA of complete "no contact, EVER" thing. believe this. we cannot believe that is even a possibility. whereas a man, a man is more likely to be like "OK THEN" and just walk away. Men in general, are MUCH better at walking away.

I think overall in the sexes this is a huge thing neither sex get about the other: women tend to focus more on the past and not be able to move forward (even when rebelling) but men are more likely to "give it up" and TRULY walk away. Face a woman with that and it IS panic time, I dont care if you are in it or not. thats a big deal.

If the affair was fresh i wouldnt recommend a man ever give such a hard line but if its in from 3 to six months I think yes, if shes still ummming and aaahing about the marriage, then yes, give it, yes why not ultimatum, because BY THEN, if she chooses HIM, then she should live with that. experience that choice. Then id go DARK.

In the cases of WOMEN with hubands I wuoldnt give such rash advice at all (as men walk off pretty easily.) I would say yes fight with the whole DB thing, do the stuff. but I think with a woman... going hard line CAN and DOES work if your committed to following thru. a woman would find it harder to find that decision than a man would (about following thru, even if it didnt work out.)

If i were a man who put forth such an ultimatum tho id be very sure in myself id done all i could (to change bad ways etc) been loving offered solutions etc, but if everything is done, the final ultimatum isnt bad (as long as its from the heart and you mean it; if she doesnt give him up your walking.)

But if you take that route just remember its still hard times, as she will be pining and stuff for the OP. blaming you even. its a TOUGH SITUATION, but ultimately if you dont fight dirty and low, you might LOSE to promises of "I will treat you better". (this is so rarely true)

I know IN MY SITCH if my h hadnt given me the final ultimatum it would have carried on. Im glad he did. Emotionally tho I was unavailable for 2 years after.

you have to ask if your willing to hold out for those two years.

after that tho I can truly say true sorrow and regret sets in (for ME) and I think i am not unusual.
FF,

My W dropped the bomb in Dec '08 so it is now 5 months since and she has not wavered in the slightest. She filed for D in March '09 and has met with a lawyer to finalise childrens visitation and financial split. My close friends or I do not know of anybody that has wanted to divorce so quickly, especially after 15 years, she wanted no counselling, nothing except as quick a divorce as possible.

To be honest I have validated her, done the wrong things, given it too her on too many occasions without too much resistance from me for fear of upsetting her in case she ever wanted to come back. I have been told I have to 'man up', get a backbone because she does not respect me, possibly shows contempt and does not see me as competiotion to OP. To compound this, I have been out of work since the end of March so again I do not think she sees me as an attractive option to OP. I am lacking in self esteem and confidence at the moment which I do not show her, I just try to be myself and not to be downbeat.

I find it hard to believe under these circumstances she is keeping her options open, do you think even with these circumstances this is the case?

She looks at me with anger, and talks to me like a business colleague or friendly neighbour at best. No smiles, no positivity, just scowls and any opportunity to have an argument. It is very confusing and to me highly unlikely she would consider coming back in my opinion.
sadly, it does sound like she has no respect for you; it sounds like she feels she has no options but to move forward and on.

this doesnt make it true... you know who you are, and you know your in this position right now partly bc of whats happened in your life, which is a terrible bomb going off... you have to try to do all you can right now to maintain your self respect and I do know, as one on the other side, how HARD THAT IS... I know you probably feel like a loser right now and a no hoper and I know you probably think shes right to not choose you, and i know you are at your lowest point in your life.

if you buy into that then your doing yourself a dis-service; none of that is true and its mostly bc of how your life has gone and it seems like one failure after another. I cannot tell you enough how important it is to be validated in who you are as a man and a person and to hold onto your self respect in all this. I know its hard and I know it ends up feeling like a competition you have failed at and I know it ends up you feel like just 'the parent' and 'the partner in the marriage' and thats all over now and shes moved on to 'greener better pastures.' perhaps she feels that, i dont know. but its NOT true and your a great man with a great future... you have to do all you can right now for YOURSELF.

i wont say "gal" because I actually hate that term and I hate seeing it on here and i actually think its really negative. its almost impossible to "gal" when you feel like your entire life is ending. such positive advice just makes you feel like even MORE of a complete loser. I STILL dont "gal" and I dont care either. I will 'gal' when I am good and ready and thats not when other people think so. right now you have to just SURVIVE and get thru all this with yourself intact. concentrate on that. concentrate on one foot in front of the other, til you can put your head up again and it might take some time. youve taken a beating; I think its time you relaxed some on your wife, and started really thinking about how you ARE. how ARE you. are you OK? are you ALRIGHT? are you COPING ok? are you EATING and taking care of yourself???? ARE YOU ALRIGHT?

a lot of people forget to ask men that. are you ALRIGHT? if your not then you need to pull back from her completely and please survive; theres no point in running yourself to death emotionally about this, if your falling apart. its not going to help your marriage. you have to try to get yourself together. you have to get yourself back on track, back to work, back in health, back to looking at the sun again.

if you have reached a really down point where you are so depressed you arent thinking of ANyTHING but her and your m, please STOP RIGHT NOW and start working on YOU right now. i cannot say this enough bc I ran myself ragged, and I know how horrible it is; you have to get back a semblence of yourself. you have to regain your identity and that doesnt mean 'getting a life' it means just deciding to LIVE and stop thinking of all this for a while until your ON TRACK. mostly that involves getting work (I had to do that to support my kids, I didnt have a job) being fit enough to GO to work, and to stop for a bit on everything just SUSPEND everything, until you know you are AT LEAST ok to go to work every day. its a crisis and its important, bc a lot of other people dont know you have reached it bc you act strong etc, but inside all you are doing is existing an thinking... not healthy.

Your wife will RESPECT you if you RESPECT yourself. see now i didnt with my h. i fell apart hardcore. one of my mistakes; we think it will make them feel for us but they dont. they're in another place. YOU have to take care of you, and YOU have to get it together, to regain your OWN self respect; then hers will follow or, if doesnt, you'l be strong enough to cope with that.

I really think right now... you cant follow any advice I think you are at the rock bottom where you have to bail and start on you. try again later on when your more together.
FF,

You're right about me feeling like a loser. I truly believe that at the moment, there does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel. I love my wife more than anything, I miss my children, I do not have any family for support, therefore I feel very insecure, isolated and lonely.

I just see my wife with her new figure, new clothes and new lifestyle, living in the marital home I re-built and decorated, and it is really getting to me. She is going out with friends and having a great time, while I am still in utter turmoil and am hurting so badly. I know I must forget her and concentrate on me and the children, but it is impossible to try and forget the one person who has been a part of you for 15 years. The one person I adore but never told her often enough, the person I neglected over the years.....

I go to the gym, I try and get out but it is difficult as most of my friends were OUR friends and they knew my wife before me. I am trying to occupy my time with other things but I am finding it tough as I am suffering from depression and its hard to get motivated.

Thanks again FF, I know I cannot say or do anything to my wife that makes any difference, I just have to look at me but even now all I can think of is my wife and what she is up to.

Does being more of a man ie. making decisions that she does not like but I need to make for the sake of my own self respect make a difference? I have enabled her to take this course of action (divorce) without much fight from me for fear of her pulling even further away. Would she think more or less of me if I stand my ground on something I feel is important?
FF,

Welcome to the forum, and kudos to you for sticking your neck out. I hope you can be of some good to some folks who are really hurting.

You've chronicled here why I'm so aggressive in my advice for busting up affairs. I detest affairs, and I don't think much of the "Little Bo-Peep" approach (you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them . . .") -- ESPECIALLY for MEN. Because not only does every month that the affair continues drain the marriage of additional finances, and contain continued medical risks, but it also begins to slowly emasculate what's left of the left-behind man's self-esteem.

For ANYONE, this is tough, but for men it carries its own particular type of damage.

My philosophy as I make my way around the Newcomers and Infidelity forums is to pretty much leave people alone if they seem like they're OKAY with their approach -- either it's working for them, or they are at least holding up well. But when I see it not working, and especially with men, and especially when their passive approach is eating away at what's left of their self-confidence, then I try to help.

Adultery is the ultimate confidence-killer for a man. I don't think any woman can ever fully understand that, just as I as a man can't fully understand what it's like to bear and give birth to a child. But it's eviscerating, and the sooner a man can bust his wife's affair -- I believe -- the better.

Puppy
Quote:
He took a very hard line and it shook me up so much I ended the affair IMMEDIATELY. i couldnt imagine not ever seeing or speaking to my husband, ever AGAIN but i saw in his eyes - he meant every single word of it. He stood up to me and toe to toe and to give him this, I KNOW to this day he meant every single word of what he spoke; he wasnt one to say such lightly. SOME women (pls dont bash me im just saying some) NEED direction to snap them out of it and I was just such a lost soul who NEEDED to be given a hard line; it WORKED on me. I would not say it would for everyone; but in my husbands case I knew he would follow thru with this, and this was someone i knew for 20 years. I couldnt imagine for a SECOND not being able to contact him or speak to him AT ALL.


WOW!!! This is hardcore. Puppy, do you really think this could work in my sitch? This seems really drastic. Fit, if you get a chance would you take a look at my sitch in newcomers and give me you thoughts? Thanks, I'm really thinking about doing this as I don't think I would want any contact anyway with the wife if she continues to take us down this path towards divorce. I mean, why would I want to be friends with someone who I've been intimate with? I can't and won't do it.
AF,

I can't guarantee that it would work. But I can guarantee that what you've done so far HASN'T worked, so what do you have to lose??

This is pretty much what Hooper has been trying to get you to do all along.

Puppy
I have a question for you. My W admitted having a PA in Nov of '07. She didn't admit it until Sept. of '08, when I basically told her that there was no other explanation for what was going on. For a few weeks we were communicating then she basically disappeared. She's been very distant since then. She swears there is no contact with the OM, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. It's nothing I can prove, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling. I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly). What is the allure of continuing contact? Is it the need they meet? Is it the secrecy of everything?

I've read what you have posted here and I'm about at the point of the ultimatum. She won't file because that makes her the bad guy, but at some point don't you own up to your actions? Maybe that was two questions.
Originally Posted By: mountain_west
I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly).
\

I think what I've said is that even if a wayward spouse is sincere, and wants to end their affair, that without a full no-contact/transparency plan in place, the chance of repeat infidelity is very high.

It sounds like your wife isn't even at that point.

I'll let Fit answer the rest.

Puppy
Hi Puppy, I agree with you in so many ways - I also think not all advice applies to both sexes - I might be disagreed with thats absolutely fine, but its silly to suggest men and women have the same psychology, because they dont. For a start, we KNOW for a fact that men and women think and feel VERY differently from each other in depression. Men on the whole are a lot more "self destructive" than women - thats why more men suicide than women and thats why men will suicide in brutal ways hanging, shooting) but women generally gentler ways (OD) its the differences of the sexes.

I do believe in the hard line but I also beleive the hard line is HARD TO DO, and if you DO do it then you HAVE to be prepared to live with the consequences of a few things: ONE: they might not come back and TWO: if they do, they're not back by choice but by force - and THATS what some people hate and THAT is why they disagree with you.

What they're saying is, "I want him/her to come back, not be forced back". it can act like a catalyst and it can be effective BUT ONLY in making them return - NOT IN MAKING THEM OVER THE OP. see? and therein lies a big problem, bc OFTEN, the EMOTIONAL affair continues, or after a while, it "restarts" - so you are really risking causing yourself more pain. ie when your w isnt so afraid anymore shemight just meet up with him secretly again. Just to say gbye for example, or sorry, or have a sob. BAM we're back to the clandestine affair... so your opening yourself up to that, by taking the hard line.

INTELLECTUALLY, I can understand very much why tons of men and women would prefer to do the DB'ing and hard work hoping to have their partner return on their own and wanting them back. EMOTIONALLY, I think giving the hard "ultimatum" might be a choice a person needs to face, eventually; you can only DB for so long bf your being a patsy and not taking care of you. I think letting it go on for more than 6 months (if he/she hasnt yet left you) is really, really stupid. they're truly walking over you. BUT I WOULD SAY, if they have LEFT the house, go back to the DB if you want success - they've already exited. No ultimatum is gonna work NOW.

however having said allll of this every person is a precious unique gift from god and none of us can be read etc, there are sitches that need special treatment and special consideration, there are also gentle souls who just cant stand the idea of conflict or risk bc they love their partner no matter what, personalities and belief systems all apply theres no right or wrong.

The only guarantee I can TRULY GIVE YOU IS THIS: if you FAIL in the end, you will always secretly wonder if it had been any different should you have chosen the OTHER way! thats life. I hardlined my H, it failed, of course NOW I wish I'd DB'D him! so wahtever choice you do or COME to you have to decide "I refuse to look back at this and regret it I did the best I could at the time". and forgive your 'failure'.

everyone regrets an affair - EVERYONE - and this is true even for those rare ones who stay together - they always end up "lying" by omission on how they met.. what does that tell you. SHAME.
Originally Posted By: markhaving probs
FF,

You're right about me feeling like a loser. I truly believe that at the moment, there does not appear to be any light at the end of the tunnel. I love my wife more than anything, I miss my children, I do not have any family for support, therefore I feel very insecure, isolated and lonely.

I just see my wife with her new figure, new clothes and new lifestyle, living in the marital home I re-built and decorated, and it is really getting to me. She is going out with friends and having a great time, while I am still in utter turmoil and am hurting so badly. I know I must forget her and concentrate on me and the children, but it is impossible to try and forget the one person who has been a part of you for 15 years. The one person I adore but never told her often enough, the person I neglected over the years.....

I go to the gym, I try and get out but it is difficult as most of my friends were OUR friends and they knew my wife before me. I am trying to occupy my time with other things but I am finding it tough as I am suffering from depression and its hard to get motivated.

Thanks again FF, I know I cannot say or do anything to my wife that makes any difference, I just have to look at me but even now all I can think of is my wife and what she is up to.

Does being more of a man ie. making decisions that she does not like but I need to make for the sake of my own self respect make a difference? I have enabled her to take this course of action (divorce) without much fight from me for fear of her pulling even further away. Would she think more or less of me if I stand my ground on something I feel is important?


Its pretty normal to lose all or most of your friends in a breakup. I lost most first, then ALL. its horrible but it happens; I found myself it really wasnt bc of them taking sides, it was bc I didnt want to BE around anyone who knew "us" or "what happened", and then I ended up unable to make "new" friends bc I wasnt in a place to BE a friend. I think a long period of lonliness and isolation is par for the course; your depressed, your beaten, and your anxious. It isnt a reflection on YOU as a a bad thing, its just the way it is. It wont always be that way. You will eventually make new friends, especially when you get a new job. Do yourself a favor with that - dont talk about your SITCH with them. bc you'll end up leavin them behind. Just be brief/factual in talking to new people about it, not full on telling the story. bc later on we tend to avoid those people (not their fault; its just we were in a bad place then and dont want to be reminded.)

I personally think you have nothing to lose in telling your w that you oppose the divorce and dont want one, but do so strongly and factually not emotionally as in "I love you and want you back and dont a divorce". be more like "Ive let you go this far with this but I want you to know, I am very against this breakup and very against a divorce and wish you'd have given more time to working things out with me". she'll probably just say she doesnt care bc she wants it, but you can just reiterate - "I know and I cant stop you but I want it on record especially for OUR KIDS, that I didnt WANT this and I was AGAINST this". be proud of that! it certainly made a diff for my kids. Kids hate divorce. Its nice to know at least ONE of you was opposed to it and fought the good fight. its a good example too. (as long as its not done with blame.)

Keep in your mind at ALL TIMES that "all you have worked for" isnt gone - and you can and WILL regain what you had. it might take a long time and it might be alone or with a different person but you will once again have those things. Instead of feeling emasculated try realising THIS: look at all you have GIVEN HER, in this marriage, DESPITE the fact she was the one who broke up with YOU. its a measure of what kind of MAN you are to be so generous an giving, you should be PROUD of yourself in this. If she doesnt realise she should be grateful, then thats her own affair; you do and you know you can TRULY have nothing on your conscience in this breakup. you treated her well you were generous and you tried hard to rebuild it. At least you can say "I did EVERYTHING I could". this means you will sleep better at nights beleive me. the pain wont go for a long time but the pain of self blame WILL.

WHen thinking of her with the OM, keep at all times in your mind, this isnt your wife ANYWAY. shes remade herself, reinvented herself. he hasnt got what YOU had he has a different person altogether. THEIR relationship is v different. she probably like to say "she can be the real her, with him". let it go. the person she is, for a start, might not be anyone you'd want, anyway, in reality. if you could get past the fact she has the same body and face and you have a shared history, and just LIVE with her today as she is RIGHT NOW, you might find yourself very unimpressed.

As the one left its easy to get caught up in the idea of ALSO reinventing yourself from scratch as it appears THEY did and are DOING so great, but personally, I find that fake and untrue. keep being yourself bc frankly, you lose so much of yourself ANYWAY during this that if you go about trying to be different as WELL, you'll wake up one day wondering who the heck you are! you'll come out of all this very different ANYWAY without trying. a better man a stronger man. a more compassionate man, who truly has something to give a woman - her loss.
Originally Posted By: mountain_west
I have a question for you. My W admitted having a PA in Nov of '07. She didn't admit it until Sept. of '08, when I basically told her that there was no other explanation for what was going on. For a few weeks we were communicating then she basically disappeared. She's been very distant since then. She swears there is no contact with the OM, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. It's nothing I can prove, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty compelling. I know that Puppy argues that without full disclosure and openness, the chance of a relapse is pretty high. (Please correct me if I am reading you incorrectly). What is the allure of continuing contact? Is it the need they meet? Is it the secrecy of everything?

I've read what you have posted here and I'm about at the point of the ultimatum. She won't file because that makes her the bad guy, but at some point don't you own up to your actions? Maybe that was two questions.


Some are gonna disagree here but I think if the person who had the affair claims to end it, but then goes all secretive, its probably still going on, even if just emotionally (via emails etc from work and so on.) is your wife emotionally unavailable to you?? and is he accessible to her? if so... then yes, I would DEFINITELY be highly suspicious there is still some kind of contact. When a person is in an affair even if emotionally (and BELIEVE me, an affair often drags on for a year or more via contact! an its SOO destructive) they are not emotionally available to YOU, but they think they're doing a terrific job hiding that from you.... they really do. If you act suspicious they will call you paranoid and get all on their high horse but realise this: THEY cheated on you and its THEIR responsibility to you to act clean and transparent if THEY REALLY WANT YOU BACK and REALLY WANT THIS TO WORK.

Ok so what I am trying to tell you is this: you can say to wife, "even if its OVER, your behaviour is SO withdrawn and SO secretive that it tells me you are unavailble emotionally to me; this is either bc your still "in love" with him or bc you are NOT in love with me... and if your not in love with me, then logic tells me you might be holding a candle forh him". this is a logical point of view and NOT unreasonable. I seen a lot of advice here saying to be patient and tolerant during the 'after the affair' phase and that IS true, but only up to a point: if after 12 months the secrecy is still going on your going to have to face some facts and ask some tough questions.

That is why hardlining is hard - bc if you do it, its MORE LIKELY that this is exactly what is going to happen. almost certainly WILL happen. the OP remember, is in love with your spouse and they dont want to lose them, so they wont give up contact with them easily - and contact is draining your marriage. the straying w or h will justify it to thsemlves saying they ended it and they are trying - but IN REALITY THEY ARE BEING V SELFISH, and keeping their 'options' open, and you might need to address that - in a very FACTUAL and non accusing way not in an emotional way. bc she might not have even really stopped and thought that thru, how selfish it is; mostly you dont til its all done and dusted. Having someone point out to you some hard home truths isnt wrong, its a strong thing to do. just dont do it from your anger, jealousy or emotions, but as observations regarding her behavior.

No I dont think the attraction is the 'cheating'. Not by that stage anyhow, after admitting it. I think the attraction is the DRAMA and I cannot say that ENOUGH. life is boring! life is humdrum! this person adores you and waits on your every word. WHO doesnt want to be ADORED????

But that once again is something you could point out to her factually - that her feelings for the OP are based on romantic love that never got a chance to mature into what YOU TWO have, and that kind of romantic love 1) cannot last and 2) would change, if she ever DID get with him. She'll say 'she knows all that', but I tihnk in the depths of romantic angst, its easy to daydream it away and pretend. Even those who KNOW in their minds it would never really work out still have this ROSY GLOW about the OP and probably always will in a way, bc THEY NEVER had to see their 'bad side' did they?
SO WHAT CAN CAUSE AN AFFAIR IN A WIFE...

I'm going to talk about my sitch, bc well, its what I know. I was a child bride and a virgin. a very GOOD wife. Three kids, never even LOOKED twice at another man.

I seem like an unlikely candidate to cheat dont I. But it happened. Lets look at what made that happen - and no, before you ask, no it was NOT sexual curiousity or bc I hadnt been with another man. Not one single bit.

I WAS ANGRY.

thats it. thats why I had an affair and I think thats why a lot of people have affairs, men and women alike. I was very, very angry at my husband. He let me down, and disrespected me, and I got so gosh darn angry, I thought - "I'll SHOW YOU"! very childish yes? but im just being honest.

I wont get into the specifics about WHY I was so angry, but lets just say, I finally became, "the worm that turned", and I did not care A BIT how that turned out, or how that hurt him, or how that hurt our marriage. I picked a man, and i chased after him, a man my husband felt threatened over but no not a friend of his but a co-worker. He was younger than me and probably overhwhelmed by the sudden attention, I have no doubts. IN MY MIND, it was about just SEX and getting some "revenge" on my ex for being such an AHOLE. I no longer felt I loved him and I felt wreckless. At the time I remember telling my mother I didnt think I loved him anymore. I was so furious. I felt quite justified!

Naturally never having done this before or even been in a relationship before... I had no idea emotions actually would come into play, and "fell in love" with my OP. No one was more surprised than I. DEEEEEP DOWN, I was still very much in love with H, and I became quite afraid then of being found out, but I also was by now in the thralls of NEW LOVE and loathe to give that up - he made me feel amazing. The sex wasnt as great as with H, but then I'd been with H 20 years; but it was great bc it was with HIM and different. Before too long he was telling me he was in love with me and wanted to be with me forever. He was willing to take flack, willing to take the kids on, willing to defend me like only a knight in shining armor could; and of course he heard all my bitterness about H, and agreed strongly I deserved SO much more.

I distanced from H and became emotionally unavailable and every single waking moment was spent in a stupor of first love, akin to a 16 yo. I thought of his smile, his eyes, his laugh, the way he talked. he was perfect. TO THIS DAY, my OP is perfect and this happened 8 years ago! why shouldnt he be, I never DID get to know the man. I never DID live with him or clean for him or have to see him in a bad mood. I only saw the LOVELY aspects of him didn't I.

After the A ended, I moved jobs etc, the contact continued via email another 12 months. A lot of chatting talking and laughing, flirting and carrying on, he carried a torch for me and I loved that. I kept that door open. I think a lot of people do. In the end tho, I was slowly reconnecting back with H and feeling v guilty, DISTANCE and TIME DO make a difference. This is why so many are willing to tolerate it, bc its true, eventually it peters out, if contact is truly NIL by physical personal contact; even emails cant keep that flame going forever. sooner or later, the OP becomes frustrated bc they arent living a full life waiting around for you. They get angry and resentful (rightfully so!) usually, imho, the OP will be the one to finally end contact if there is no physical sex happening. they see its going nowhere and have to face the fact your willing to work on your M, even if you are talking to them.

When its TRULY OVER and ashes, well the memories carry on - I carried a torch about another 12 months. I think this is common - as I said theres no 'bad' memories or a 'real relationnship' there so theres only fondness to recall. the M seems harsh and abrasive by comparison even tho H is trying so much. I wondered a lot if I would ever get over OP, and ever love H the same again.

MY ANSWER IS THIS: good people do make mistakes. good people can get themselves into bad situations thru depression and a patchy bad marriage. Its untrue that a cheater is always a cheater; some people sincerely and horribly regret their affair and would NEVER dream of doing anything like that again, due to the fallout. WHen its finally all over and the fantasy is gone, you DO look up and see what you have done and you do have major sorrow for the pain you caused. you see your selfishness and its a horrible pain bc its mostly hidden secretly, its a dreadful thing to admit to anyone. I came out of it distraught and feeling "I wasnt the same" and "would never be the same again" and I would question myself at nights, thinking, "if I did this thing, that I thought I would NEVER DO, then how do I really KNOW myself at all? maybe im capable of ANYTHING". it was a terrifying thought.

FOR ME, healing came in admitting it to everyone I knew including parents and family (H hadnt told.) I had to come clean to feel clean. a lot cant get past the pain but the truth is, confessing is good for the soul and the people who love you and know you will forgive you. if you are truly regretful they will. admitting it is a big step bc its saying "I want you to really know me". I think not enough people come clean but would if they knew how freeing it is. its nice not to hide or have a rotten secret.

Once H had his own OP and an affair, I told the kids out of a sense that they were blaming him and i wanted them to truly see mistakes happen and its not right to blame just one person. If you admit it to kids you have to do it carefully tho, knowing they're old enough (my oldest two were.) I also did so knowing it would only bite me if i didnt and yes the H tried to "out" me, only to be deflated to find I'd already come clean.

If H ever came truly clean and asked for forgiveness today he'd get it from kids and me and family. he doesnt yet realise that and isnt strong enough and some never are. thats not to say id take him back - no too much hurt there, I never deliberately hurt him for the OP the way he did me, or abandon our kids the way he did - but in a WAY, im almost glad I at least know the pull and addiction an OP can be bc its made me more compassionate.

I dont ENTIRELY regret my affair even now, bc it does define who I am today- I hated it and hated myself for it but hey, im changed and NOW accept that change. i forgive myself for it. it was dumb and happened and I will answer to god for it.

but people who fight for cheating spouses, arent weak or wrong but strong loving people who want their lives back... and I cheer for every single one of them. I hope everytime for them to get the fairtale ending. but even if it doesnt happen, thru all the pain and angst as both the person who HAD one or the victim of one, you still come out stronger. better.

an affair, a marriage breakdown, think of yourself like molten glass; you are being reshaped by life; you are being held in the flames and yuo will come out differently; but you have to beleive you will come out of those flames more beautiful. even if its not positive ending, you'll come out more complex, brilliant, and different - you will be tempered. you will be unshatterable. you can surive anything, now.

xoxoxo blessings
AFWAW, I have looked for the beginning of your sitch to read your story but couldnt find it. Only your most recent posts... im not too up on how to go about this place.

The only thing I can comment on right now just from what I have read is that you are VERY ANGRY. this is normal... but you have to ask yourself right now: even if she came back TOMORROW, where do you think all that anger over all this time is gonna go? do you really think its gonna just 'disappear'? AFWAW its not, at first it would seem to bc you'd be grateful, but let me tell you, as soon as your 'gratefulness' started to wane, and it would, that anger would still be there for you to deal with. I know this.

SOMETIMES, our sitches becomes so hurtful we have to know that no matter how much we still love h or w, the hurt has gone too far, and the anger would never really go away. you have to get to this you have to ADMIT this, bc your a FIGHTER, you are FIGHTING for your marriage, your not SEEING that if you WON, you would THEN have to fight YOURSELF an your FEELINGS of anger and betrayal...

is there anything she could do to make all that anger go away? probably, there always is, in our minds, the ones cheated on. WOULD SHE DO THAT, the answer is PROBABLY NOT. even if she came back to you, she may never fit into what YOUR mind and heart would need to release all that anger and resentment over the hurt you've gone thru.

LOOK, in MY sitch, I was furious and still am. I love him very much. I will love him til he dies. I just will nothing is gonn change that LOVE. but I dont RESPECT him and he could NEVER do all the things needed to regain that respect. Could your wife, at this stage?

ask yourself that hard hard question and if its NO, accept you love her and your sorry but then let her go. in your heart mind and emotions; tell yourself its ok, you fought a good fight and you battled hard, but you lost and sometimes thats what happens in life = we lose. it doesnt mean you wont ever love again or be loved again. i know it seems way too exhausting to bother with someone else (boy do I know) but exhaustion at the idea of letting someone new in and starting again isnt good enough to keep fighting for someone who does NOT WANT you to fight for them and could NEVER regain your respect, ANYWAY.

at this point... if you reach it... its easy to do what I did and decide to burn your bridges with butane and a flame thrower. DONT. respect WHAT YOU ONCE HAD. but walk away from what its become... and talk talk talk about it. Its ok to be in love with her. but its not ok to not let yourself move forward... you made mistakes she made mistakes, sometimes you gotta know when to let it be in the hands of god and fate and start thinking of you.

Let me say here that being OBSESSED with your h or w in this is a lot like it is for THEM with the OP... its ADDICTIVE ISNT IT.

its the DRAMA my friend bc without the DRAMA you would have nothing an your life would feel empty

how long do you want your life to be one big drama after another... you wont let go bc if you do then you have nothing else to think about nothign else to hope for nothing else to dream of nothing else to fight for.

Thats called FEAR. say "hello my old friend" and embrace it... accepting is a nothingness. but it doesnt mean you have to give up ALL HOPE. this is what we call... "walking away" and "going dark", you still love the w or h... but you choose to let the chips fall where they may and concentrate on you.

bc while your fighting for her you might not be noticing someone like me in your life, who is desperately seeking someone new to love! you wont see her bc your in your DRAMA and CRISIS.

there are many of us out there you know, and there are women out there like you just waiting and hoping, we miss each other thru the fogs of our drama in fighting... think about that some... you might think no thats not true... but it is. I thnk you need to DATE.
Hi FF,

I'd like to commend you for having the strength and compassion to post this. I can see how it's healing to you in terms of your past and present situation.

I have a question. When your H laid out his ultimatum, did you change and ask for forgiveness immediately, or did you really resent him for putting you in this spot? Like, "how dare he give me an ultimatum" attitude?

Also, during the two years you were emotionally unavailable to him after the A, what was he doing? Did he try to "woo" you back or did he just let things slide back to the way they were?

My W had an EA with her boss and is now in depression. She has never apologized or even admitted it as being an A even though I found a note and her telling me she wanted to leave the family for him. Deep denial. Like you I was her only boyfriend and sexual partner. She even had this strong phobia of me cheating on her and would always ask me to swear that I would never do it because her dad walked out on her mom. Lo and behold, she ended up doing it but denied any wrongdoing despite evidence to the contrary.

I guess I'm trying to see where she's at right now emotionally since she doesn't want to tell me anything.
Stuck, at first i begged for forgiveness, and yes i was sorry, but not enough for me to be 'cured' of my addiction to OP, and the whole "in looove" thing, and he kept contacting me so I kept replying, which meant I remained detached and unable to connect with H. most people are truly NOT nefarious to "love" two people at once. They may THINK they are and probably THINK they are fooling the spouse, but this is a dream.

I never resented him putting me in that position no, but I did continue to rebel and play up like an adolescent for along long time. this is what happens, when your 'forced' to return and make a 'choice'. the choice was never made it was made FOR you, so its natural to fall into a position of a rebeling teen.

It would be convenient for me to say in the next 2 years he did nothing but the truth is, he tried very very hard and was amazing. he changed all his ways and became exactly the h I always wanted. exactly. it took time but gradually i began to really fall in love again and thats when real regret and guilt TRULY set in. I felt i couldnt say enough or do enough to say sorry then. i thought about it every single day. IN THE BEGINNING, when i came "home" as such and quit the affair, I was still in full rebel mode, and god forgive me, i even remember thinking id do it again, and i also remember thinking i didnt regret it at ALL. you really believe this too, when your going thru it. you remember all you learnt from the OP... and I know this is painful but you DO learn stuff from the OP... and you think its not something you'd ever regret... but when you truly begin to reconnect to your H, you DO regret it a lot, and truth to tell, you would NEVER admit to your H just how much you felt for the OP. it becomes really shameful.

The problem in my sitch is while i was sitting around mooning for those 2 years and he was trying so hard, he was losing heart and gearing himself up for a lovely MLC of epic proportions, and im told its the worst on here. well, id be a rotten LIAR to say I dont know what caused it or made it worse. the truth sets us free, and may heal others

your wife probably isnt SORRY right now. she might not be SORRY for along time. I hope your still around, when she is. but the truth is, people like you, who have suffered a long time an felt so lonely... well... the truth is your open yourself, to an OP who might offer some compassion and love.

No one ever bothers to mention this to the person who had the A. they dont even CONSIDER IT

but life is life and god is god, karma is karma and what goes around.. comes around... what you think you dont want.. someone else always does...

too bad a lot of us learn way too late isnt it...
Hi Fighting Fit, you are legend! I am still in pain not knowing whether I'm insane or not. I really hope that you could give comments to what I am going through at the moment.

About 10 months ago I had this gut feeling that wouldn't want to go away easily. I dismiss it at the beginning and put it down to my being inconvenience and insecure about our new role in the family, but when my stomach felt like it was full with butterfly, I could not have helped myself to do some syping. Then some tell tale signs began to reveal:

text late at night, deleted text massages and call logs, mobile phone always on hand (or it seemed!) new sexy undergarments (never before!), changes in music taste, more independent and prefer to be alone and seems to be careless with things around the house (we have 3 girls, 16, 14 and 8).

She started to talk about one specific guy often, and at one time because of the office problem that this guy facing she asked me to help him, which I was happily did. After awhile I felt uncomfortable with her attention and focus on this guy. She started to read all companies rules and policies after she got home and pay less attention to the family. I explained my concern about this, especially after she frequently talked and text late at night (which I suspect to this guy) which she said she could not understand since they are 'just friends' but nevertheless she agreed to my term that no more late night texting or call and she will tell me if there was any red flag.

Then one night when she was having a shower I read her text sending to one of her male co-worker: "where are you?" I found this strange since she was not supposed to have any appointment with this guy that day. Then after she finished showering I realized she had deleted the text while other text to that guy that involved their office matters still there (my wife aksed me to help him with his office problems). That night I confronted her calmly about the text which surprised her because whe had agreement about it, and after awhile she said that she could not remember about it, I tried to be specific then she gave me a lame answer about her being worried that he might have got late to start that afternoon (they worked on shift). I asked her why she did not put his name on the phone list (it was only number and I had to do some spying jobs to know that it was him) and she said (lame answer again)that guy was having problem with their boss and she did not want to sent the wrong answer to the boss should she knew my wife was close to this guy. But she admitted that she had a symphaty to this guy because he had worked hard and was unfairly treated. I reminded her about her duty as a mother and wife and told her my concern with her being close to him. She promised (again)me to keep her distance and would inform me whenever she/the guy sent the text to each other. We slept peacefully that night.

Although my gut feeling still stubbornly haunting me I started to loosen up my spying on her until accidently this guy called my wife in panic saying that their boss had his phone (which he carelessly left at the office) and had read all the texts including from/to my wife. My wife was also seemed to panic which I could not understand why, when I asked her she said that the guy had warned her that she might be called by the boss. I calmed her and told her that she shouldn't have worried if she did not say anything bad about the boss and if the boss asked her just tell the thruth. But I noticed that my wife was so restless at night and acting strange at day. Then the boss called her and told her (according to my wife)that this guy had sent the test to other person saying my wife was helping him in taking a letter illegally from the office. Offcourse my wife denied her involvement to the boss and to me and for me this was the right movement to 'discredit' the guy. However, to my astonishment my wife seemed undisturbed with this guy behaviour, rather than becoming more distance (you would be mad if someone told you a thief wouldn't you?)she was even closer (from my point of view)to him. I could not find a trace of anger on her to this guy. Then I noticed that the pattern of deleted text and call lists remain there.

When I confronted her slowly whether she had something more to say to me she told me that all this time she was being totally honest and clean to me and she was hurt that I accused her for having an affair (I never said that). Then one night before we slept I asked her the same question again and told her that I knew she had deleted text all this time. Then she broke off, admitted to me that she did deleted text when I asked when she referred to the time when she was in the bathroom pretending to have shower. I was furious about her dishonesty and she cried in tears telling me that she did not know what had gotten into her.

I felt betrayed but she assured me that there were nothing happening between them (sexually) and blamed the condition where she needed to work with him often.

I started to suspect on the physical things when her bedroom behaviour changes quite drastically. One time she was full of fire and initiated the moves, next time she turned cold turkey. Also the techniques and words she was using were changes. She started to talk about the size of 'male things', which really made me uneasy. There were also times when right after our bedroom session she talk about how the frequent of our intimacy needs to be cut down (its already low or almost none existence for god sake!) because it would make her tired and could not concentrate when in work. And also the time when we already planned a romantic dinner, abrupt cancellation came because she needed to go to work due to the short staff (happened mostly in this other guy shift off course!!!). This is not to mention about the sexy lingerie that she bought but rarely put on display for me (she did wear it to work though) and oh yeah.... brazilian wax.

Actually my main worry is the fact that it is never sunk into her mind that the other guy was taking advantage of her all this time. She said she had 'finished' with the guy but failed to see my concern. She took the blame on her but not to this guy. It seemed that she wanted to protect him. She always speaks highly of this guy (she did that often withoug her seemed knowing it) and never thought that he just a 'scum'. For me this is why the pattern of her lying about him keep on reapeating. The fact that she knows where he is working now is also very suspicious (how did she know when no one of her co-worker knows about it and she told me before that she did not know where he was going when he left).

Alhtough the guy had left the place where my wife works, I still have this feeling that they still maintain their contact. I knew this because my wife inadvertently told me about the place where this guy is working now, though when I tried to ask for more details she quickly said she got it from her friend at work.

Am I getting crazy? Is she cheating or was she cheating? My gut feeling still driving me mad but I do not have any solid proof at all except all the tell tale signs and the above incidents. After she knew I checked on her phone and her email, there are nothing left in there.

Thanks for all your supports
some prayers/// affirmations if preferred....

I pray that you and I realise that although it may appear life had treated us unfairly, life has things in store for us we cannot see. Though we may feel as though the best of our life has ended, this is not a truth. Every life has seasons, and though we might be in Winter right now, we must realise that our Spring is on the way.

I pray that you and I fully understand that anger is like swallowing poison ourselves and waiting for our enemy to die. We only hurt ourselves, and we have hurt enough right now. lets agree together right now not to let anger taint our thoughts and lives and future, because we deserve more than that. We deserve to be happy, and expressing anger is never over: we must decide for it to end. It wont end by itself. Anger is a pointless emotion that corrodes our ability to feel joy, forgive, or move on. hanging onto anger is something we do out of fear because it means hanging onto HOPE. in our fears, we desperately fear that by giving up anger, we GIVE UP HOPE. Let us realise this is absolutely not true.

I pray for you and I, that we fully understand that people are all precious beings and souls and we all make mistakes, sometimes terrible ones. We have within us the capacity to forgive ANYTHING we chose to, and to get over ANYTHING we choose to; we are that powerful. We must always remember: OUR BRAIN IS NOT IN CHARGE OF US, WE ARE IN CHARGE OF IT. we must always remember: A FEELING CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT A THOUGHT. BANISH THE THOUGHT, AND THE FEELING MUST GO. let us now agree to refuse to entertain thoughts that bring us pain. To get rid of the feeling we must refuse to let the thought make a home in our mind. We ARE that strong. Our feelings are in our control.

I pray that you and I, both understand fully that our life is worth living, even if we lost. We still have our children, our parents, and our family, to live with and for. We must not consider our indentity to be entirely tied up in our marriage. it isnt. Its only one aspect of who we ARE, and theres a lot yet to discover about us, when we feel better. and we WILL feel better.

I pray that you and I fully grasp that "failure" is not a failed relationship. We did the best that we could, at the time, with the knowledge that we had. if we had known better, we may have done differently. But we didnt, therefore it is pointless to not forgive ourselves for things we didnt know. We now know new things, and thats something to be proud of. We learnt new things. It might feel pointless right now, but we can be proud we learnt, no matter how the lesson came.

I pray for you and I we find the humility to accept everything that happens to us knowing we still live, and still have our health, and still our children and our lives; therefore we have many chances at happiness in many areas. Let us release the idea of winning, the idea of drama, and accept what others do to us knowing that what they do can never change who WE ARE.

I pray that whenever we get a bit weak or tired and forgetful, and fall back into old mistakes, ways and anger, we once again re-read these prayers (or similar) and forgive ourselves and start again afresh, without self blame but only with gratefulness that we are truly smart enough to know whats good for us.. and whats good for us is to LOVE OURSELVES.

peace and blessings xoxoxoxo
Agustus...

I think your wife is infatuated by this guy at work, but theres no way to tell (for me at least) at this stage if she would be having an affair with him, or not.

I know nothing about your sitch, but I think from WHAT YOU have told me, you might want to try the hardline right now on her - because it seems early days to me (its possible your w is infatuated with him, but that nothing has actually HAPPENED, and for YOU that would be a GREAT TIME to lay down the hard line.)

if you suspect this also... and think she's not involved with hima as yet but only infatuated... then GO HARD. tell her EVERYTHING.

SHOCK your wife to death by telling her you know all about the texting and you check on her and go hard: SHOCK her more by saying you are going to CONFRONT this guy if she doesnt agree to cease ALL CONTACT RIGHT NOW with him, or you will GO to him and you WIL DEMAND answers. STAND UP for yourself and go HARD, take a risk and tell her outright: I WILL FIND OUT, I WILL ASK HIM, I WILL ASK YOUR CO WORKERS and heres the kicker I WILL ASK YOUR BOSS, I WILL ASK HIM whats going on and where this man IS.

this is not the usual thing id suggest - its pretty hard. but I would for YOU, if I am reading your sitch right and your w is infatuated but hasnt DONE anything yet. if you can go hard on her NOW before anything HAPPENS, then you might scare her (and him bc she'll tell him beleive me) how hard your going and how far your prepared to go.

WHILE going hardline, also tell her: if this ends RIGHT NOW, we'll never speak of this again, we will forget this, i will never raise this with you, but this ENDS or I will MAKE it end. be a bit SCARY. can you do that?

SOMETIMES (geez I know some people are gonna hate this... ) sometimes people need a GOOD SCARE. try the bluff scare and it might work for you if things havent gone too far.

LOOK honestly? Id also call this bloke up and id tell him to leave my wife alone. you have A RIGHT. dont be crazy man dont be insane just call him and very calmly tell him "leave my wife alone. thats all i am going to say; you leave her alone, right now. shes married to me".

believe it or not, SOME OP MEN (not so much ows. but men) actually listen and will back right off, it turns them off (SOMETIMES) and at the very least you will have made it awkward for your Wife.

TIME TO MAKE IT AWKWARD I THINK.
Originally Posted By: FightingFit


No I dont think the attraction is the 'cheating'. Not by that stage anyhow, after admitting it. I think the attraction is the DRAMA and I cannot say that ENOUGH. life is boring! life is humdrum! this person adores you and waits on your every word. WHO doesnt want to be ADORED????


This is SO true!

Puppy
Augustus, one thing that you can use to your advantage when you gather intel, and/or even even you have the CREDIBLE THREAT of having good intel on a wayward spouse:

They don't know what you know.

And they don't know what you DON'T know.


Think about that for a minute, and consider how it can be used to your advantage. A simple statement like "Look, I know all about you and ________ , and it needs to stop right now," and then when they ask you how you know, and WHAT you know (and they will press and press and PRESS for both of these!), you simply say:

"I'm not going to tell you that, but you have a decision to make. I will not live in an open marriage."

OK, so assume you've only seen 20% of the communication that's gone on between them -- and only text messages. There are also, no doubt, cellphone calls, meetings/hook-ups, e-mails, maybe gifts exchanged, etc. How does she know that you don't know some of THESE, too???

A: She doesn't.

Once you confront them, and use just SOME of what you know, without revealing ALL that you know or even HOW you know it, then they have to assume the whole 100% (or at least some other, horrible parts) are now known.

Make sense??

Puppy
It is true Pup; and Ive read a BIT if your sitch, tho I dont know it all, and i think a few things about you. just from what ive saw and admittedly its not a lot.

I think you are a hardcore man with hardcore views and this has shaken you, to your roots; and I think you need to take a step back a little a realise its probably more about your wife and her depression/resentment than it is actually YOU...

you actually seem a lot like me in male form, and if thats true then theres a lot of problems there bc if your like me, you are one of those people who hardline too fast and assume others should be smart enough to do the same and be on the same chapter. The problem is, hardlining too much on your partner who MAY HAVE BEEN hardlined a hell of a lot from you, in the PAST, will run from that because its the same old behavior as always. ie you havent changed.

They will throw up their hands an say "your still the same" and say "you still always think your right" and they will say (maybe not to YOU "even if you ARE right cant I be wrong for once and see how that feels".

Keep in your mind this at all times (and god knows I need to). your W probably knows your right and probably knows your views are valid and probably knows shes done wrong by you... but after all these years might not care much bc shes sick to death of you always being 'right'.

your a smart man, your clever and you have a lot of logic going on. If someone is rebelling and doing everything wrong that is obviously wrong, is telling them that working out for you, or just making it even worse - its called "defiance".

Women cannot defy as outwardly as men for the most part so can choose to do so passively agressively by doing everything wrong deliberately to show you that your not in control.

SOMETIMES, we have to let go and say "do what want then" but actually follow thru with that and actually have the strength of mind and will to bite our tongues and cheeks and hurt our heads by smiling thru the defiance. think of it as you would a teenager who done everyting you hated. do you still love them???? of course. you hate the tattoo you hate the new bf you hate the peircings; but what is harping on that going to do or get you, its gonna make it WORSE. its ATTENTION. how much ATTENTION are YOU giving bad behavior????

i dont know it all im only saying bc I know how i was, and i know how you are and I are, in similarities. if you have no idea what 'passive agressive' is then you will find out. its about teaching that person a lesson in doing absolutely what they hate most bc you CAN. I think your W might be acting out lot against you but its just a hunch so IGNORE me if im wrong.. god knows I am enough.

keep in your mind that acting out is a form of love... we dont bother acting out to anyone we dont care less about. REACTION is probably something you shouldnt even bother showing. try laughing. laughing at someone is probably one of the biggest wakeups you can give.

even when you really dont feel like laughing at all....

also keep in your mind that YOUR peace should be coming first, your peace in your mind and yourself and your very life. Start becoming very protective of it and making a forcefield around it. NO ONE should be able to shake you up, if you dont choose to be shaken anymore. you dont need to make statements about it, actions speak louder than words....

you are a strong man good luck to your W finding a man as strong as you... thats a compliment. take some comfort in the fact that a WEAKER man is ALWAYS gonna be weaker. And shes going to have to live with that then. Once with a strong partner its a real letdown to realise you cant stand toe to toe with them and theres no challenge...

may you find a new challenge ahead if it doesnt work out, who will adore you for your strength and not need to rebel. May I FIND a man so strong.

let it be xoxoxo blessings
I think you've hit on a lot of things that are right, Fit. Gotta run my son to school, but I'll be on later and respond more fully.

I appreciate the time you took to write that.

Puppy
its both a fortunate thing and an unfortuate thing i can touchtype as fast as i can talk. im also on australian time, and its 11pm so seeya all tomorro

and remember... blessings in this life to all, life is worth living, even if right now its only for kids and family, it ownt always be like that so HEAD DOWN and one foot in front of the other...

tomorrow i'll trudge along like always. one day, i'll put my head up, and i think i'll have moved from where I am even if it doesnt feel like it right now

thats life it keeps moving ... we must move along with it an thru the bad times, until we can put our heads up again thru the hard winds and rain, the sunshine will once again come no season remains forever.

the only garantee we have in this life is that nothing will stay the same. in the bad times what a blessing that is

xoxox.
Quote:
AFWAW, I have looked for the beginning of your sitch to read your story but couldnt find it.


FF,
In a nutshell, I was deployed to Iraq for 6 months and my wife had 4 PAs and 1 EA, the latest who she claims she is in love with. She left me the day after I returned and my daughter. She let me believe I was the reason she left for 2 months. She then called one day and admitted the PAs and EA and said she wanted to come home. She did so for 3 hours and then left again.

She has threatened to file many times but so far has not.

Quote:
The only thing I can comment on right now just from what I have read is that you are VERY ANGRY. this is normal... but you have to ask yourself right now: even if she came back TOMORROW, where do you think all that anger over all this time is gonna go?


I am angry but it's not all because of her. I'm angry at myself for not seeing this coming, for not giving my wife the attention and affection that she needed, for not communicating better throughout our marriage, and for not setting my priorities as I should. I'm angry because I want the opportunity to do so and don't see that I'm going to get the chance with her.

Quote:
WOULD SHE DO THAT, the answer is PROBABLY NOT.


I agree, she would probably not. So, what is the answer then? I don't know.

Quote:
I just will nothing is gonn change that LOVE. but I dont RESPECT him and he could NEVER do all the things needed to regain that respect. Could your wife, at this stage?


This one perplexes me. She doesn't respect me enough to be with me but she respects me enough to raise our daughter. I don't get it.

Quote:
i know it seems way too exhausting to bother with someone else (boy do I know) but exhaustion at the idea of letting someone new in and starting again isnt good enough to keep fighting for someone who does NOT WANT you to fight for them and could NEVER regain your respect, ANYWAY.


I feel this way--I don't want to bother w/ someone else.

Quote:
there are many of us out there you know, and there are women out there like you just waiting and hoping, we miss each other thru the fogs of our drama in fighting... think about that some... you might think no thats not true... but it is. I thnk you need to DATE.


Where are these women? I really don't feel like I'm ready to date a this point and probably won't until I am divorced.

I feel like if she chooses to divorce me then I will be forced to have no contact w/ her, EVER! This will be difficult b/c of our daughter but it will be the only way I can maintain my sanity. Thanks very much for you time and feedback. Anything else you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
FF,

While I sincerely apprecaite all that Puppy has done to help me through my sitch, I am grateful that you have been willing to open up and show us guys the other side as well. Just reading your thoughts, feelings and insight has been great.

My sitch is outlined under the thread "relapse - new affair". Puppy (and others) have been very helpful for the past week. (God, it's only been one week since I confronted W about the A).

As you can see from my last post, I'm wondering deeply about what to do next. I have some many conflicting emotions, but after relapsing myself over the weekend and "waffling" on what I need to do, I know I need to confront. But when?

I appreciate any help, suggestions, advice you can provide as I work through this.
Thanks Fighting fit,

After she admitted that she did text him she managed quite successfully (with tears offcourse!) to convince me that I should not rubbing it off on her face anymore which I agreed though I told her she needed to learn from what had happened. Since that night, she tried to convince me that everything was back to normal. She started to show me the text that the guy had sent her (nothing that raised the red flag, really).

Then, about a month after her confession she told me that she was affraid of getting pregnant because of our passionate and rejuvenated sex life. I told her jokingly that I really did not mind to have more kids as her sister also recently had another baby, besides the chance is very slim for her to get pregnant again since she had her tube tied 8 years ago when she delivered our youngest daughter. But she seemed so concern about it and asked me to buy her a pregnancy test. I did buy it and it turned out to be negative (off course!!).

I actually do not want to play shrink here, but her distress mood about the possibility of getting pregnant were never happened, and it bothered me. Later when I was able to check her past schedule, I found that there were days my wife and that guy (only two of them) had to come early before the rest of the shift. So yes, the opportunity was there for the physical contact and I was blind all this time.

When I asked her to avoid making contact with him except their working contact she seemed to agree. Then it turned out that this guy always had reason to contact her. Once, I asked my wife to skip working on his shift, he quickly text my wife to show his concern and offered her to take another day off. There was also an incident when I dropped my wife at work early in the morning all of sudden he came (lucky me I was still there when he arrived)then I could see my wife panicking, convinced me that he should not have been there that morning. I did not say anything and tried not to be prejudice. Then my wife went in to the office with this guy (again only two of them)and moment laters I saw him shot off and my wife came to me saying that he must have been wrongly read their rota. I ended up helping her that morning before another person came and helped her. Now it was not that difficult to find out that the guy had actually worked till night the day before that (usually they finish around 12). And it would have been impossible for him to have another shift this morning, he knew that, my wife also knew,and I was the dumb one.

I know I am still in denial of all this although the signs were there all along........
FF-
Thanks for addressing my questions.
FF-

Thanks for the help!
One more question. When you said your H changed into the person you wanted...did you tell him what was wrong with your R? Did you open up and specifically tell him what your needs were?

The closest thing my W told me was that she just didn't feel "in love and attracted to me anymore". And this is after a year and a half of this craziness. I think the closest thing she told me was that she held little resentments against me that she didn't tell me about at the time. When I asked her for an example of on of the resentments, she said like when I would forget to take out the garbage on some nights. I can't believe someone would D just because of a few missed garbage days.

Kind of hard when you're just shooting in the dark.
FF could you lend your expertise to my sitch for a minute, please? My H started having an A in Oct/Nov of 07 and moved out Dec. 07. He and the OW have a 6mo old baby together (he lives with his mom) and now he wants to come home.

My problem with this scenario is he will always have to have contact with her and despite what he says, I know it is still at least an EA. I'm seriously disheartened and the damage he has done and continues to do to me emotionally is/has taken a HUGE toll on me. I don't seem to be able to make him understand that he is killing what little feelings I have left for him by his reluctance/refusal whatever to end the BFF/EA chat with her and only have contact that relates to their D.

Any thoughts, help, suggestions, 2X4s? I'd appreciate the insight.
thanks,
S&S
Pup, swing away...
Shug,

Why would I swing at you?

Puppy
Soul search!

Forgiveness and boundaries, figure out what you can and can't live with.

Pray for guidance and the ability to discern the advice.

cire
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Shug,

Why would I swing at you?

Puppy


Because I know in my heart what I need to do, I'm still wanting someone to tell me what I want to hear and you my dear Pup are the voice of reason (reality) that I so need to hear.

Nothing personal my friend, it was more of an invitation.\:\/

Sorry for the HJ FF.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
One more question. When you said your H changed into the person you wanted...did you tell him what was wrong with your R? Did you open up and specifically tell him what your needs were?

The closest thing my W told me was that she just didn't feel "in love and attracted to me anymore". And this is after a year and a half of this craziness. I think the closest thing she told me was that she held little resentments against me that she didn't tell me about at the time. When I asked her for an example of on of the resentments, she said like when I would forget to take out the garbage on some nights. I can't believe someone would D just because of a few missed garbage days.

Kind of hard when you're just shooting in the dark.


Stuck I DID tell him about what he did that caused the 'straw that broke the camels back' and made me lash out, but the truth is it wasnt really ABOUT him so much as ABOUT me... I think a lot of affairs are like that.... so you cant really 'explain' it, and nor can you blame your partner; the problem lies WITHIN, and I tihnk deep inside the person having the A knows this, and it causes a lot of shame and resentment, so they attack with blaming YOU for THEIR problem - its a smokescreen to cover up what is really going on with them. Cuz they dont even know.

To say you had an A bc you didnt feel you loved your H or W anymore isnt cutting it - there are plenty of times marriages hit a low plenty of times you may even be fighting like cats and dogs, not getting on at all, and an A doesnt happen then does it. An affair happens when something messes up inside the persons head; they reach a point they think they dont care much about the consequences, they just want to be SELFISH for once, and thats impossible to explain isnt it (and makes you sound like an Ahole.) You really cannot waste too much time blaming yourself for this or saying you didnt love her enough etc, that might be TRUE, but it didnt cause an AFFAIR. after all, SHE COULD HAVE JUST LEFT YOU!!!!! so how true could that be? Surely if things were THAT bad, a person would just walk out.

Therefore you have to realise the person who has an Affair hasnt reached that point of wanting to end their marriage, but they have reached a point where they dont care much if it DOES end, so being risky and sleeping with someone else doesnt seem like a huge big deal. Or ALTERNATIVELY, the person has an affair simply to get some excitement into their lives and DRAMA, and have sex with someone else out of lust; EITHER WAY its still an immoral and selfish choice - and blaming the marriage is so much SMOKESCREEN. nah. you coulda told yr partner, gone to conselling, or walked out of the marriage... so if you walked down the road of an AFFAIR its definitely time to look ONLY at yourself and quit blaming the partner

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR YOU AS WELL - THIS IS HER IMMORAL CHOICE AND HER BAD BEHAVIOUR. you did not "make" her do anything nor "cause" her to; there was ALWAYS other options for her

Two things for you: ONE, quit asking her why bc theres no adqeaute reason for being a selfish ahole. let that truth set you free. Thats why her reasons are LAME. there are no reasons that could fit the crime. Didnt take out the garbage? pls.

TWO: She cant tell you what she needs, how could she, when she was getting her needs met by another man? the answer is "I need you to be him". Not something you want to told to you, but its the bald truth. She thinks she was in love with this guy, she saw his AWESOMENESS didnt have to experience him on a real level, why bother feeling hurt over the attributes of a FANTASY. just you remember this: you could be FANTASY MAN TOO, if you chose to be the OP to someone. Its not magic, its dirty. But she has to come to that realisation

I think it takes about 2 years after the Affair for the person to truly reconnect to their partner and truly begin to see their behavior for how bad it was and truly ASSIMILATE the shame enough to finally feel REGRET. as I said, lets hope you can make it that long. there is no short cut.

You need to stop focussing so much on why she did what she did as its all about her mostly and not you (unless you beat her or ignored her needs compeltely, i am gonna guess you were mostly a normal husband.) MOST of us get complacent in a long term marriage its NOT a good enough excuse for an affair. you either could have tried to reconnect and work on it or you coulda walked out. the AFFAIR is a selfish act. you have a right to say it and beleive it - its true.
Augustus

I think you just need to step up with your wife. Lay it down and I have two questions for you, the concerned husband

1) why dont you insist altogether that she CHANGE her number and NEVER have contact with him again, for your sake

and

2) why dont you confront this bloke and tell him where to go???
Originally Posted By: Good_guy
FF,

While I sincerely apprecaite all that Puppy has done to help me through my sitch, I am grateful that you have been willing to open up and show us guys the other side as well. Just reading your thoughts, feelings and insight has been great.

My sitch is outlined under the thread "relapse - new affair". Puppy (and others) have been very helpful for the past week. (God, it's only been one week since I confronted W about the A).

As you can see from my last post, I'm wondering deeply about what to do next. I have some many conflicting emotions, but after relapsing myself over the weekend and "waffling" on what I need to do, I know I need to confront. But when?

I appreciate any help, suggestions, advice you can provide as I work through this.


I read a bit about your sitch. Im only going to tell you what I feel instinctively might get you some fast results to end this affair. remember tho if you take this advice to do it lovingly and firmly but in no way angrily or vindictively.

I think its time you sat your wife down, tell her how much you love and adore her and how much you want your M back AND how much you KNOW shes trying and struggling; but then comes the medicine...

Tell her you realise you cant fight cleanly or do this alone anymore; your FIGHTING FOR YOUR WHOLE LIFE HERE and your KIDS and your FAMILY, and you have decided that, if necessary, you will take it up a step, and enlist THE FAMILY to help you through this - by that you mean HERS and YOURS. shes gunna be horrified. be calm tell her this is not about "dobbing" on her but about YOU doing whatever it takes to bust this and get her focus back onto you and the M, if thats what she TRULY WANTS.

Then do it... frankly I think ALL AFFAIRS need to be dragged out INTO THE LIGHT. LET THE BE LIGHT! stop letting it be a dirty secret; how the heck do you think you are helping her by keeping a secret like that. Affairs are LIKE MUSHROOMS - the grow an thrive in THE DARK!!!!! let there be light.

If she hates the idea of justifying her behavior to her family then maybe she should be thinking about that... remind her of this: if you have to hide a relationship then you probably shouldnt be in it
Originally Posted By: Sugar and Spice
FF could you lend your expertise to my sitch for a minute, please? My H started having an A in Oct/Nov of 07 and moved out Dec. 07. He and the OW have a 6mo old baby together (he lives with his mom) and now he wants to come home.

My problem with this scenario is he will always have to have contact with her and despite what he says, I know it is still at least an EA. I'm seriously disheartened and the damage he has done and continues to do to me emotionally is/has taken a HUGE toll on me. I don't seem to be able to make him understand that he is killing what little feelings I have left for him by his reluctance/refusal whatever to end the BFF/EA chat with her and only have contact that relates to their D.

Any thoughts, help, suggestions, 2X4s? I'd appreciate the insight.
thanks,
S&S
Pup, swing away...


Well sometimes we spend so much time thinking and so much time discussing we make things a lot more complex than we have to to understand our own mind. so I would, before giving you any ideas, ask you the following very simple questions:

1) Do you want him back? no ifs or buts or whatever just simple outright, do you? we can think about the "only ifs" after thats answered. Do you WANT him back??? OR, did you really just want HIM to WANT to come back? and now its happened, your thrown for a loop?

2) Who broke up the relationship him or her. Thats a pretty important question.

3) Is H running from her, or running from what sounds like the sitation of an unplanned pregnancy an a new child? Do you think he'd still be there, if the baby hadnt come?

4) You are going to have to live for the rest of your life with the fact your man had a child with an OW. CAN you do that and do you WANT to. BEFORE ANSWERING, remember that no matter HOW bitter you feel about this (an who wouldnt) what i am really really asking you is, is being without him a better alternative than having to live with that.

5) Would you be prepared in any way to integrate this child into your family or does the idea totally alienate you. What about the rest of your family

6) WHY DOES H WANT TO COME HOME NOW

oh and I forgot and this is my BIGGEST QUESTION

have you SPOKEN TO THIS OW YET???? wow do i think thats a conversation you need to have dont you? If its truly OVER then Id want to hear it straight from her, not him
SOMETHING WOMEN CAN RELY ON WITH THEIR HUSBAND, WHEN HAVING AN AFFAIR

the h wont want to tell anyone, he'll be ashamed

keep in your mind at all times that affairs thrive in the dark. put aside your masculinity and TELL. but do it without vindiction, or wait until you can.

Answering questions is very hard to do for anyone having an affair even if they deny its happening. lets face it, if you deny it, then HOW are you gonna explain that R if it ever comes to be... everyone would know you were a liar

so always try to put aside any feelings of shame or "this is our biz" and very much firmly assert to your wife you intend to enlist family help

I think men avoid this bc they are afraid of being asked particularly by other men, why they are putting up with it. but your man enough to cope with that question right

this isnt an attack on you as a man and nor are you weak for fighting for what IS YOURS and your FAMILY. say so!
FF, thanks for that advice. Below is what I just posted on my other thread. I've already started to expose the affair to friends and family, close confidents of mine. I would hope that after we talk more about the "John thing" (see below), that I will be able to start the exposure thing. I understand and know that it needs to be exposed. What I struggle with is the level of exposure - I know I can tell her close friends and relatives. It's the casual friends and family that I am concerned about. It's that fine line between being horrified about being exposed and the hatred that she would have for me because her sister who lives in another state and is a devout catholic finds out, when her knowing would do absolutely nothing to help us heal.

It's enlisting those who can help, rather than telling the world and seeing what happens.

Thoughts?




Originally Posted By: Good_guy
Setting boundaries - yesterday I told W that OM is no longer welcome in my home (used home, rather than house for a nice touch). That W should tell him that he should know this and should not plan on attending my Daughters open house this weekend.

Response that I was "way off on this John thing we are not having an affair just good friends".

I've responded with an offer to talk about this "john thing". Still waiting to hear back with her reply.

My thoughts to this "talk" include my issues with trusting her - that until I can trust her again, everything she tells me is essentially a lie. She needs to know that its not an acceptable relationship, regardless if she thinks it's an affair or not. She needs to prove to me its over. I can not take her word for it.

I want her to understand that until she understands what is causing her unhappiness, she can not address it. I don't to push counseling, but am thinking if I talk about understanding what is causing her unhappiness, she might realize that she needs to better understand the true causes behind it, rather than what she thinks are casuing it. I'm sure some of what she said when confronted about the A was just lashing out - she was caught, and she knew it.

I will not talk about us, our living arrangements. Only about my trust issues and her unhappiness. Until she is willing to openly and honestly adress thise issues, we can not talk about anything else.
I would only recommend exposure to a close-knit circle of people that you are CONFIDENT would be supportive of your marriage:

- OM's wife or g.f.
- your wife's parents
- your wife's siblings
- your own parents
- your own siblings
- wife's best friend, if she has a very close one, and if you are CERTAIN she would be supportive. I say this again because nearly all affairs have an "enabling best friend" at the center of them!
- wife's/OM's employer, if the relationship is taking place at work or if they are co-workers and ESPECIALLY if there is a supervisor/employee relationship
- your adult children, if any

To expose to a wider circle is not advisable. They will not have the influence over her anyway, and there will be more damage to try and repair later on if you reconcile.

Do your exposure all SIMULTANEOUSLY -- not sequentially.

Puppy
Thanks puppy - always appreciative.
Originally Posted By: FightingFit
have you SPOKEN TO THIS OW YET???? wow do i think thats a conversation you need to have dont you? If its truly OVER then Id want to hear it straight from her, not him

We have had VERY limited contact simply because she will not speak to me. She texts ugly and hurtful things, but the invitation I extended to talk has thusfar been declined. I'm the last person she wants to talk to...EVER!!!

Originally Posted By: FightingFit

1) Do you want him back? no ifs or buts or whatever just simple outright, do you? we can think about the "only ifs" after thats answered. Do you WANT him back??? OR, did you really just want HIM to WANT to come back? and now its happened, your thrown for a loop?

I would have to say yes. I am the type of person who would regret not giving it that last try, even if it put the final nail in the coffin.

Originally Posted By: FightingFit

2) Who broke up the relationship him or her. Thats a pretty important question.

Depends on who you ask. I would have to say at this point it has been/is him. What has actually been done, that is. Why?

Originally Posted By: FightingFit
(3) Is H running from her, or running from what sounds like the sitation of an unplanned pregnancy an a new child? Do you think he'd still be there, if the baby hadnt come?

I think real life is/has seeped into the fantasy and its not pretty. He has no intention of not being a part of his childs life and so he isn't running from the responsibility of the baby. No, I don't think he'd still be there if there hadn't been a baby, but on the flip...who knows how much worse it could have been. They share a major addiction to gambling and that has fed the R for a long time.

Originally Posted By: FightingFit

4) You are going to have to live for the rest of your life with the fact your man had a child with an OW. CAN you do that and do you WANT to. BEFORE ANSWERING, remember that no matter HOW bitter you feel about this (an who wouldnt) what i am really really asking you is, is being without him a better alternative than having to live with that.

5) Would you be prepared in any way to integrate this child into your family or does the idea totally alienate you. What about the rest of your family

As for #4, I already live with that. It can't be changed and even if we D tomorrow, I have children with him and so this is not a reality that is ever going to change. They have a new 1/2 sister...it is what it is. #5) I have always been very clear on none of this being that poor childs fault. She is going to have enough to deal with, without me trying to make this about her. The only way it could ever work would be for her to be integrated into our existing family. I don't want to be her mother, but I would have no issue with being a part of her life and watching her grow up.

Originally Posted By: FightingFit

6) WHY DOES H WANT TO COME HOME NOW

He says because he wants to give our M another try. That he feels like we owe it to ourselves (each other) to try and make it work.
Hi Sugar

given all you have said and the committment you have shown, I think then for you, you have to try all you can to sleep peacefully at night, no matter the outcome.

I think the fact this OW wont speak at all with you MUST be an indication its not OVER for her and shes still FIGHTING, for your H. thats a bit of a concern for you and extra worry you dont need while trying to rebuild, so I guess you have to talk about that with your H. and about the fact that tho he may feel guilty and so on, you wont be tolerating long chats and talks etc or him visiting her all the time - if its over its over. I would suggest to him he gets a special phone "just for her" and that nothing is hidden on this phone, and shes told very firmly shes only to call about the baby.. an if she cant do that then firmer boundaries will ahve to be set, to protect the marriage... you deserve some respect here

I think given what it looks like (with ow being so angry an such) its really likely your H does want to be truthful and true to you, or why else would she be so p'd at you.. btw pls make sure she cannot contact you if she wants to just send nasty putdowns to you... um she put herself in this sitch! shes just going to have to know she cant reach you EVER. I would also say OW cant have ANY email contact. only the special phone thats IT. ie really limit how she can get to your family cuz if shes an angry woman she'll just make so much trouble...

H has to realise this stuff fully with you and agree with you on it and limit the contact, and tell her truthfully its to get his m back. he has to MAN UP here and TELL THE UGLY TRUTH. remind him he was quite HAPPY to do that with YOU once.

I hope it all goes well for you; you sound pretty together, and up to spark on the OW's tricks... its a matter of divide and conquer for her, so thats why its imporant for that possibility to be completely removed... i think if it is, you two have a great shot at this
xoxoxo
Good Guy, I concur with Pup on everything, of course telling randoms is not a helpful thing, just close friends and family is all that is necessary...

and I absolutely think you are right about setting boundaries re the OM, no matter who she claims him to be and in what capacity, um, i have never had a "friend" who would want to impinge on my marriage or come into my family home... some friend eh? nah

I dont know about making statements like "everything you say is a lie", thats a little brutal (even tho true), id more use logic like above with her as in, how much of a friend can he BE to cause so much trouble, and odnt tell me he doesnt know bc YOU as his FRIEND must be telling him so he KNOWS how I feel right? um lets rethink the word "friend". I wouldnt want to come anywhere NEAR a friend of mines maritial problems thanks... this is why I find it hard to BELIEVE you.

xoxoxo stay strong but do it calmly and logically and not accusingly or hatefully, and those little steps and statements will sink into her one way or another.
Read my thread for the LATEST in DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!
I did and I will reiterate to you, Sugar...

please stop right now what your doing. Please do not speak wiht the OW anymore and PLEASE listen to me

ALL OWS HAVE A SAD STORY. mostly its true.

are you going to let that F*** up YOU more than you have been already???????? let her problems be HERS nor yours.!!! I dont care what he did or said, everyone KNOWS a man (or woman!) who cheats is a LIAR! this isnt NEWS TO YOU, the only NEWS is how he DID IT! is that something you REALLY needed to KNOW

her own sorry story is hers. I AM SURE shes not a horrible person.. most OP's arent. but that does not mean you become their FRIEND. shes not your FRIEND. ok? shes going to be ANGRY and shes going to REVENGE FUELED and she is going to USE you to do that [censored].

please stop... its YOUR rl with DH your looking at not HER relationship with your H! her crap is hers! let her find sympathy in HER friends...! please...

your m has no hope whatsoever if you have any kind of actual RELASTIONSHIP with OW. and OW doesnt think HER relationship with YOUR HUSBAND IS OVER.

its called "CAUSING TROUBLE"

get out get out get out

do NOT talk to the OW about her R with YOUR HUSBAND, ever again. its one thing to speak to them to find out what the agenda is or whats real. ITS ANOTHER to gang bang with them and have SHARED angst.

her angst is not even DESERVED!

stuFF HER///!!!!!!

i want you to seriously forget her. and never contact her again. and i hope you will see the seriousness of what i say. you will NEVER reconnect with your H ever again, with her telling you how things are....

WHAT a trouble maker, so OW like. YOU KNOW BETTER, change your damn cell phone woman! who CARES what happened with HER.
FF- I agreed with you on her thread...definitely. She's walking up a very slippery slope. I just want you to know that I stumbled upon your thread yesterday and read it. It was a good read. An interesting read. It helped. Thank you.
FF- I agreed with you on her thread...definitely. She's walking up a very slippery slope. I just want you to know that I stumbled upon your thread yesterday and read it. It was a good read. An interesting read. It helped. Thank you.
Flight

I have read your input and it is really so true about what I know about my EX. The problem for me is she is not hiding anything and has openly allowed people she works with to "help" her find a new guy. So far that is all she has found guys that want one thing... then there gone! She wont talk to me except for little things and really doesnt contact me much at all. I have tried it all NC moving things out of the house but to no avail! I have decided to call it off completly and may tell her the same thing your H did. She has also let the kids and her family get into it also and has made me out to be all bad... I have had enough and I will be moving out soon... I am not doing this as an LRT because she openly has talked OP/OM right in front of me.. no guilt what so ever...
It is hard to believe what she is doing and is not even like a stranger more like a hating machine... Thanks for the insight...
Flight

I have read your input and it is really so true about what I know about my EX. The problem for me is she is not hiding anything and has openly allowed people she works with to "help" her find a new guy. So far that is all she has found guys that want one thing... then there gone! She wont talk to me except for little things and really doesnt contact me much at all. I have tried it all NC moving things out of the house but to no avail! I have decided to call it off completly and may tell her the same thing your H did. She has also let the kids and her family get into it also and has made me out to be all bad... I have had enough and I will be moving out soon... I am not doing this as an LRT because she openly has talked OP/OM right in front of me.. no guilt what so ever...
It is hard to believe what she is doing and is not even like a stranger more like a hating machine... Thanks for the insight...
Paul, your exactly right, you can only be forgiving and hopeful up to a point most of us have our "cant look back now" place. Its usually a lot further down the road that we think it is, but it does exist. for me it was definitely when H brought his OW to this country behind everyones backs and had her living with him all the while telling others I kept his kids from him. He wouldnt even tell me where he LIVED, but he forgot to tell people THAT part.... convenient

for me that was the "last straw" and I really had a cold reality check that this man thought nothing of me, it was over. sick or not, depressed or not, he went "too far". if your spouse goes TOO FAR, then even tho you still love them a lot and still feel erally sad and have a lot of hope, its probably not ever going to work, bc you cant get past the "too far" thing. you can forgive up to a POINT, and then theres the point of no return... I think the hardest part is realising when you have hit it... thats when a lot of real anger and sadness and depression comes in... and it stays for a long time too... im not sure how long yet, I'll let you know when mines over! I think ive been in that place of "no return" for the past 12 months. Horrible place to be; your emotions are all over the shop. you cant say how you'll feel from one day to the next, except it'll suck.

I guess all you can do really at that point is to decide not to become a "hating machine" like they are to you, bc its aroun that time you think "i'll get you". it really is. thats when you get as reckless as they are and can you say war of the roses? if you can keep your head during this time and not let the hurt and sadness turn you into a nasty monster, you can be proud of that. just bc they hurt us doesnt mean we need to hurt back (I say this in hindsight bc actually I went ballistic). but i dont recommend it...
well I have made a ton of mistakes. She has a friend that has dragged her into divorce! This "friend" has been in one for over 2 years andmy ex has talk me down to almost everyone, I think partly cause she thought she was loosing me before we split but she was wrong and no one can tell her otherwise.
Completely blinded and thinks I am only doing things for me.
If that was true I wouldn't want to be with her kids and love them as I do, so far she has had at least 3 failers with OP and one didn't even want to meet the kids!!! All the while knowing that I was a commited stepdad! If thats not enough of a wake up call then what else could be... This was her choise.

Also she does these little feelings checks with me and I will not allow that anymore. I don't think she really cares, and I think she misses me, I am the only one who has ever loved her the way she like to be and maybe fighting that everyday so enough is enough for me, she has let her out of control feelings run everything, I can't save her or the kids at this point she will not have it.
I don't know how she will take it but I have not contacted her for anything again for another 2 weeks and have to get out. I think she knows something is comming. Sad thing is I see she has things in our room cards from me notes I have left for her, she doesn't remove them but has them placed around the room!!??!?! She can't be any kind of friend and I wish I could be that in hopes of being the better choise but so far I have proven over and over that I am and she still continues the BS.
I won't make a threat I am simply going to leave, I may leave a note explaining that I don't want to see her at all. after I move. The kids have been so hurt by her actions and grabs at anything to place the blame. They will pay the most! I will try and keep them a part but will ony do that through someone else as well. No need for he to know about me anymore, she has not shown that she cares to anyway....
well I have made a ton of mistakes. She has a friend that has dragged her into divorce! This "friend" has been in one for over 2 years and my ex has talk me down to almost everyone, I think partly cause she thought she was loosing me before we split but she was wrong and no one can tell her otherwise.
Completely blinded and thinks I am only doing things for me.
If that was true I wouldn't want to be with her kids and love them as I do, so far she has had at least 3 failers with OP and one didn't even want to meet the kids!!! All the while knowing that I was a commited stepdad! If thats not enough of a wake up call then what else could be... This was her choise.

Also she does these little feelings checks with me and I will not allow that anymore. I don't think she really cares, and I think she misses me, I am the only one who has ever loved her the way she like to be and maybe fighting that everyday so enough is enough for me, she has let her out of control feelings run everything, I can't save her or the kids at this point she will not have it.
I don't know how she will take it but I have not contacted her for anything again for another 2 weeks and have to get out. I think she knows something is comming. Sad thing is I see she has things in our room cards from me notes I have left for her, she doesn't remove them but has them placed around the room!!??!?! She can't be any kind of friend and I wish I could be that in hopes of being the better choise but so far I have proven over and over that I am and she still continues the BS.
I won't make a threat I am simply going to leave, I may leave a note explaining that I don't want to see her at all. after I move. The kids have been so hurt by her actions and grabs at anything to place the blame. They will pay the most! I will try and keep them a part but will ony do that through someone else as well. No need for he to know about me anymore, she has not shown that she cares to anyway....

One other thing (I know I type allot!) is I haven't reached that point yet I think she has. She says so many off the wall things and says she has fogiven me but clearly won't forget!
I have simply been neutral and sometimes have pressured her. I did to much of that and can't go back and do what I should have.
Her to late idea is all she cares about every mistake I have made and that it will never change, on my side I have forgiven so many times that I look like a fool. Not that I care what others think, she has said "don't let others tell me what I should do!" That just blows me away as she does everything her friends advise her to do!
I don't know if she will ever hit the reality of this mess...
If she does the chance of me being there is dwindling so fast...
I have forgiven and can but I have never seen her so determined to self destruct, and she knows it and can't understand why...
Her past is a big key, her teens something had to happen. She will destroy anyone that truly loves her without even knowing why.. With the way she has been acting it's like she thinks shes back in high school chasing guys with the other divorcee women, immaturity at it's best!
Flight,
I have been reading back through allot of your posts! Very indepth reality about exatly what is or could be happening. Can you read back through my posts? You might see more of what my W has done and been through to get to this point? it would be great if you could, There is a page on my sitch there somewhere. As I read you posts it makes me wonder if I have exausted all possibilities? what you said about rebeling and how always being right about something! I have heard that from W before. I would agree most of the time but if I felt she was not listening (and she addmited this too) I would be pretty adimit about "doing the right thing" her complaints about how she was not happy also...
Even when I complimented her offten... There is more but you might see something I missed?

Thank you
Fight, what would you say about confronting the other person that the spouse is cheating with?? I know the other person personally too if that helps...

Jeff
Paul.... if I am reading your sitch right and your partner has cheated on you four times - do I have this correct? I have to seriously (but I hope compassionately) question why you want to be with someone who has hurt you so often. One or two mistakes happen... but more than that? it shows a reckless abandonment of wellbeing for not just you, but herself as well; I think it shows someone who is fighting a lot of personal demons, for a start, sexually; and also a very poor choice in men in general - perhaps Paul, you really ARE just "too good for her".

and perhaps deep within herself, she beleives that as well...
Originally Posted By: Jman
Fight, what would you say about confronting the other person that the spouse is cheating with?? I know the other person personally too if that helps...

Jeff


If you know this OP, PARTICULARLY if he was a 'friend' of yours, I think you owe it to your self respect to CERTAINLY make him have a very difficult conversation with you. But only do this if you are feeling calm and centered about it and weigh up carefully if it will help you feel better and get back a sense of personal power and self respect, or if it would only shatter you more. It depends; People get VERY emotional when the OP ends up being someone they know. it makes it all so much worse. An because you know them, your imagination is in hard drive bc you can actually 'picture' how they are together, whereas its all conjecture with a stranger.

If you choose to do this, you need to carefully prepare what you intend to say and not stray from that script. Its about getting YOUR feelings out, not his. His viewpoint is useless to you and hurtful to you. If you are prepared in ANY WAY to entertain a discussion about your wife and YOUR marriage with this man, you'll beat yourself up for ages about it (probably after beating HIM.) So you have to be very focussed on coming across forcefully and strongly and cutting off any of his excuses or blaming of you. because he WOULD try to get the focus off him, you know that right? Most people when pinned to the wall do.

One benefit confronting the OP has is that it does make things awkward and uncomfortable for THEM, the OP and the cheating spouse, and it also opens the OP's eyes up that your not some weakling lying down and just taking this; your fighting a battle and by confronting them, your donning the armor and showing your lance so to speak. That CAN make some OP's pause. Most OP's hope the spouse will just shut up lie down and GO AWAY. Their reasoning is "why cant they just accept it?" its their mantra. YOUR reasoning back is, "why should I accept it?"

On the other hand you need to realise your spouse is going to be furious at you, and how much damage that is going to do to your relationship if your trying to save it. Believe me all her comfort will be for the OP - I discovered that first hand when I did it. DO I regret it? no. Am I still married ?? NO. so by all means think about it but get a lot of views and come to your own decisions - in HINDSIGHT (its a wonderful thing!) I wish I had TOLD my cheating spouse I intended to confront OW. Really made it clear - then done it. I think doing it behind their backs infuriates them. Of course shes going to say no way etc, but at least she knows its coming - and so does OP. Let him stew for a fair bit; Id announce my intentions then do it a week later out of the blue.

If you intend to confront him never do so via email. Phone is good if you can. if its in person make it in a very public place, an if NECESSARY, have someone with you for support - not interefering or even listening but just there hanging back and ready. A brother for example. NEVER get physical. And if you think it might come to that then just dismiss the idea. Nothing would drive her to the OP more than if he was all beaten up on her behalf. Remember your aim would be to show your colors and ruffle up HIS feathers and confidence - not the other way around. By being calm collected and cold in your attitude, you demonstrate self control and derision.

then never relay to your spouse what went down or what was said - let OP do that, he'll change his story a million times and you going clam over it will drive her crazy. Just say "it was between him and I get the story from him". She'll go NUTS wondering what you REALLY told OP. And GRILL OP mercilessly. Let that give OP pause over just WHAT shes hiding and from WHOM. (she has lied to him, trust me on this.) Cheaters are always desperately scared of the idea of the beloved OP finding out some hard truths and then they end up with no one. (In reality, dont tell him anything at all, let her just imagine you might have.)

Remember first and foremost your message to OP - your so weak you have to eat off my table and take my leftovers. Because thats the basic and true message, to ALL OP'S. And I find its the one thats the most galling to them - the truth hurts.
FF,

I have always been of the "never confront the OM/OW" school, for several reasons, but your posts have made me re-think my position. I'm beginning to think that IF you think you can keep your wits about you, that there might be some value in this, especially if -- as you say -- this is someone you know.

And I must say, the "evil Puppy" side of me just LOVES this whole dynamic:

Quote:
then never relay to your spouse what went down or what was said - let OP do that, he'll change his story a million times and you going clam over it will drive her crazy. Just say "it was between him and I get the story from him". She'll go NUTS wondering what you REALLY told OP. And GRILL OP mercilessly. Let that give OP pause over just WHAT shes hiding and from WHOM. (she has lied to him, trust me on this.) Cheaters are always desperately scared of the idea of the beloved OP finding out some hard truths and then they end up with no one. (In reality, dont tell him anything at all, let her just imagine you might have.)


smirk
Sorry flight,
No she never cheated but we did seperate twice before. Last time I had left and moved out. 5 months later she was back. I did hold off for a while and she was doing things that helped. After we got back together I was hit by a drunk driver about 8 months after we moved in with each other. She was very respectful up untill about 4 months after the accident, I was permanently injured. The disks in my spin are never going to heal, as I went through this I started loosing my company I had built and was making allot of money at the time about 10,000 a month within the first 6 months of being back. She seemed more worried about the money at times and I was a bit suprised at her panic attacks and fear of what was going to happen. I was in a lawsuit and could only do what I was instructed to do by doctors and lawers. She didn't like the fact that I was in this sitch and I wasnt either but had no choise... theres more to tell you are really awsome for helping BTW smile
I guess at this point I wonder if giving her an ultimatum is a good idea, or just start moving and that will certainly be a big change! she is also struggling financialy as well as me. She has like I said shown very small signs and then jumps right back to her safe zone IE not getting back together! I was thinking of just e-mailing and letting her know I will be moving? she has insisted that I shouldn't come by so I will do what she asked. and let her know I am moving on... Since our last meeting, where I did get sucked in with her out of the blue kiss! She has not contacted me for anything so I am not sure what she is up to... Could be that she has found OP?!?!? She did for a while in the beginning check up on me but this has also slowly dissipted. I have called her out a few times on things that are so obviously disrespectful and that seems to have made her rebel more. One thing she used to pride herself on is being truthful, only when she was in the right frame of mind. But at the beginning of this slpit the excuses were all really just BS even when it was clearly not true... Like she was being driven but her feelings... She had to do this in her mind.. With her friends standing by her, also telling them what ever she did about my shortcomings. I never called her on that part, IE talking about me with other people that don't even know me. and some that do. I know she feed allot of negatives about me and when she was upset about something thats all they would hear! I was very respectful to her friends and never had a cross word with any of them... As for her feinds at work I met only a few of them for a total of seconds if I added it up...

Thanks for the help!!!!

Hope to hear from you soon, I see you have allot of intersted parties... LOL
Good work flight!

I believe you are right about my being to good for her! not to be conceited in anyway, just knowing my vaule... I think she subconciuosly knows this also and or is simply board. I did disconnect aslo before I left... And slipped a little.
I know my sitch is as bad as they come, I have read about allot of them that were in exactly the same thing. Even some that there WAS had fallin for OM/OW and managed to save it also. My W hasnt found anyone she is dating and looking for something else.
I have never seen her so upset.
In the first days crying about us spliting up and wishing we could stay together but at not long after started acting like this. The excuses were there also. Not doing the dishes and really petty things that were not justification for this.
I think she was worried I was not attracted yet we had a SL right up to the end, also complimented her offten. So emotional or physical or fiancial? A combination of things I think.
She asked me to prove things to her in the beginning and I was all about keeping us together and she simply got more upset, I was only tring to keep our family together but she see's my intention as "me getting my way" I did fear loosing her also and that showed through. I simply didn't want this to happen. So this was not like she just started having an A just went nuts and started dating, with the other divorcee girl after we seperated. She even gave me warning, so I went into panic mode myself. Every kind thing I did or attemt to rekindle was noticed a little at first but after she got on a dating sight it was like she was gone in mind. Not worried about me to much at all, and what I was doing.
Fighting Fit or anyone else who has some insight:

Can you check out my posts under Newcomers and give me some insight?

I need your guidance, please!!! WAW? is the post name.


I am not sure how to thread or anything like that.

Thanks!
Paul your sitch is unique - what kind of injury did you incur? Does this affect your life? It may have been a big shock to her??

I also think given all you have told me you need to go dark on her a bit and back off. I know how hard that advice is but I think its one that in the end may pay off for you. That doesnt mean being cold or mean or anything, be very welcoming and happy when SHE contacts YOU... if she notices this and asks why you arent contacting her be totally clean about it and say you are respecting her wishes and giving her space. BUT THATS IT. dont say more.
Originally Posted By: Veryconcerned
Fighting Fit or anyone else who has some insight:

Can you check out my posts under Newcomers and give me some insight?

I need your guidance, please!!! WAW? is the post name.


I am not sure how to thread or anything like that.

Thanks!


VC I read your thread; and I do understand and empathise with your desperation and concern but you need to stop what your doing because its not working. Showing how sad you are, acting desperate, and constantly trying so hard is not the way to go right now and yes I DO know that sounds impossible but you can do it. You can if you realise this right now: carrying on the way you have been is NOT going to work ANYWAY so you might as well change tack - and also you have to do it for you to regain a sense of self respect.

If you keep going down the road of expressing so much desperation and need to make it work I guarantee you two things, 1) she wont care and wont come around and 2) your going to lose all your self respect and end up HATING HER - thats when the REAL explosions happen, the ones you REGRET. TO avoid your relationship becoming Hiroshima (and believe me, it will if you keep cake eating like this) CHANGE what your doing.

ACCEPT IT. ACCEPT WHAT SHES DOING. TELL HER FINE YOU HAVE ACCEPTED IT. THATS RIGHT LIE TO HER FACE AND DO IT WITH A REGRETFUL, BUT DRY EYED SMILE.

stop talking about the marriage. STOP talking about her 'making a mistake'. stop talking about trying to keep her there or 'trying one more time'. Quit with the self blame as well, your just focussing her more on it and validating her.

If she raises it say things like "when its over, its over" and "I respect your decision" and (smile wistfully when you say this "I hope im lucky enough to find someone else to love, LIKE YOU HAVE". (dont forget thats a good one.) STOP asking about OM stop caring stop looking.

With step son, do the SAME. dont be tempted to use him by expressing your distress because its too much for a 15 yr old. its not good for him. so for HIS sake do the same thing. I know its hard and sometimes you'll need to get away or leave the house bc you'll be so emotional. DONT show it.

stay in your house let her make all the efforts to leave and then, and I know how hard this is for you, LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY.

look i know this is insanely trite but its REALLY TRUE: if you love something, set it free. if it belonged to you, it will return. If it doesnt, it was never yours.
G'Day FightingFit,

Quote:
What worked on me was him telling me outright it was over and he never wanted to see or speak to me ever again as long as the affair continued. I got VERY AFRAID - remember we had kids together and he was basically saying, I will not SEE you or SPEAK to you even in relation to the kids - I will go thru someone else to get to you; I wont TOLERATE you.


I did the same thing with my own wife and completely agree with you. I meant it when I said I wanted nothing more to do with her and it did scare the crap out of her. In fact, she had run off to OM's house in England and I left her there, flew back to Australia and stopped all communication. 25 days later she (grudgingly) came back.

Adulterous wives only understand hardball and hard consequences. There will be many on here who disagree but I am yet to see a single situation on this board where a man pandered to his wife whilst the affair was in progress to have her come back. Being intimidated by an adulterous wife's anger and threats is the last thing that will make her respect you.

That doesn't mean the husband should be mean or cruel - far from it. A betrayed husband should be strong, resolute, honest and even handed, admitting his own part in the marital breakdown without anger or name-calling.

Others can feel free to disagree.
your right - and hello fellow aussie and guess what, ex is also in england with OW (weird!) men and women are DIFFERENT. therefore the way we handle things needs to be DIFFERENT. thats the only real problem I can see in the whole DB thing; applying it to both sexes from the beginning doesnt fit well with me.

For a start I can tell you this, at the beginning of an affair, with a WOMAN, lying it down HARD and bein TOUGH might win the day. but doing that with a MAN will make him get his dander up and he'll just take off even sooner to the much nicer and more understanding OW.

What worked on me did not work on him. so thats how I learnt that lesson and I'll stand by it too. Of course if an affair has been raging on forever and a day, its a bit late to apply 'early days' techniques. but discovered early it can definitely work.

I think its the opposite with men... what I SHOULD have done was to say "ok goodbye, so long and have a good life" and not shed a single tear and helped him move out. wish I had!

as i always like to say hindsight is awesome

Wow,
Your right it is a back injury, in the upper neck and lower back it did effect our SL now that you ask she I remember her thinking it would hurt when it came to that! I told her though don't worry about that, but it did get to her. Going dark I have but about 3 weeks ago I slipped and added some pressure when SS asked me to come over again and has asked me again since, this is where it gets hard. She doesn’t care that he is trying to get me to come home! And has asked me so many times but I don't think he asked her yet only calls me.
That was when she kissed me, so I feel into the trap because the next day it was that I had kissed her and she went right back to cold you know.
So back to dark I went, so far I know she has dated at least 2 people and got physical with one. And I know she admitted to missing me but did not tell me this directly. So I can only guess that she has found a new victim but has not contacted me. And has been going out again for I don't know how many nights. I know because SS calls me when she’s gone and asks me to come by... I had to tell him I cant right now for many reasons but really need to do this, he was hurt that night on his bike and she was out late after 10:00 and he wanted me to come, this kills me!
So again I have went dark right after that day and hoped she would contact me again but she hasn’t and I know my W she wouldn’t wait long if she needed more of that attention!
I wonder how long I should stay dark, I try not to use the kids but when he calls I want to tell her why but she thinks I am using that to "move back in" this is what I am up against!
It could be a long time???
And yes I will be surprised when she calls.


Thanks for your replies! smile
Whats going on with you then Paul? how is this injury affecting you, are you working? has it changed your life? what you do? were you an active man, and now your not? im trying to see it from her view.

you do need to begin to get strong again right now and show her your a man of worth. as painful as this is, I am suspecting wife lost respect for you - remember this: love can exist without respect but a marriage never does. has she lost respecr for you?

if so thats where you need to rebuild and do it for you, not her. I am highly suspecting this injury changed your roles.

believe me you never want a woman to feel sorry for you - no respect in that. you want her to think your A MAN. and no thats not really fair especially given you were injured; but I have a feeling on this, that something about that injury may have changed the dynamics of your marriage.

whats your feelings on it. and no do not speak to her about that. this is for this forum. you can use the knowledge to change the dynamics. but you dont let her see your weapons.
Originally Posted By: GH31
G'Day FightingFit,

Quote:
What worked on me was him telling me outright it was over and he never wanted to see or speak to me ever again as long as the affair continued. I got VERY AFRAID - remember we had kids together and he was basically saying, I will not SEE you or SPEAK to you even in relation to the kids - I will go thru someone else to get to you; I wont TOLERATE you.


I did the same thing with my own wife and completely agree with you. I meant it when I said I wanted nothing more to do with her and it did scare the crap out of her. In fact, she had run off to OM's house in England and I left her there, flew back to Australia and stopped all communication. 25 days later she (grudgingly) came back.

Adulterous wives only understand hardball and hard consequences. There will be many on here who disagree but I am yet to see a single situation on this board where a man pandered to his wife whilst the affair was in progress to have her come back. Being intimidated by an adulterous wife's anger and threats is the last thing that will make her respect you.

That doesn't mean the husband should be mean or cruel - far from it. A betrayed husband should be strong, resolute, honest and even handed, admitting his own part in the marital breakdown without anger or name-calling.

Others can feel free to disagree.


I couldn't agree more strongly.

Puppy
Ok yes I was an active person hard working was owner operator of my own electrical company and I did all the work myself. It was a small business. I did have to stop every thing I was impaired on my left side for about 3 months and went to physical therapy for 6 months and also had to finally go to a specialist where I was told the disks in my lower back and neck are permanently damaged needless to say I was floored, the doc wanted to replace them with implants.. I was not active for most of the time while I was recovering. I can walk and move around now but sometimes it flairs up and I can go stiff for days, I have learned to deal with any pain and keep going. I know depression set in! I did do some to try and keep things going like help with the house and did the things I could do to help with the house, as time went on I complained about this problem or simply talked to her about it and the case for the whole year. I was in it no matter how bad I wanted out of that mess. There was no insurance and the other drivers insurance was not enough to cover all my losses.
She was getting really scared so I kept trying to find a new line of work, little did I know how hard that would be because the economy was failing by that time and no was hiring they were all firing. So I decided after the case I was going to go back to electrical I had lost allot of contacts and the construction industry here in California is getting hit the hardest. It was a nightmare.
So I continued to look for work doing almost anything. I started to withdraw as things seemed to get worse no matter how hard I tied, I applied for so many programs also that didn’t do anything for bringing in an income. Social security denied my claim as well as unemployment. I was starting to quietly panic myself we grew distant around the one-year mark of the accident date.
She would come home and looked really unhappy.. I saw this but was so caught up in my mess and worried about how to take care of her and the kids again so I didn’t really comfort her much. She once said she didn’t like coming home.
I was stunned a bit but thought it would pass once the case was over and I was back to work…
I never got that far one day she had a break down and I mean she was almost hysterical, all I could do was hold her even when she was saying get away from I just wrapped my arms around her and that seemed to help she calmed down.
So some more time went on and my lawyer told me there was going to be a very small amount of money for me after everyone else got there’s Doctors and him, I lost it that day I was at my breaking point!
She came home that day and I was not in the mood for anything, you see most of the time I had been dealing with this with little moral support from her I my eyes, so that was the day she decided to try and be funny and nice I was not taking that well after so many days of her distance so I pushed her away that day.
It was a bad combination of her timing and my getting bad news the same day! I had that feeling for that afternoon then after a short while tried to collect myself and be more upbeat. That over whelmed her and it was soon after that her friend came by and my W talked to her and the next few days she was asking me to leave.
I was over whelmed my self and decided to go as well…
Shortly after I was gone maybe a week or so we apologized to each other and it was a good day but after that she asked me to stay away still….
I was not in any position to be moving I had so little funds and had to stay at my brother’s house so I was a bit miffed about her continuing to keep me out of the house. She knew I was in a bad position I was a little surprised. So keeping my cool during this time was more than difficult so I slipped, even when I knew I had to be in the right frame of mind I was just to over whelmed and literally exhausted for the months of struggling through this. I added pressure almost with out knowing till I looked back….

She has lost respect
She does not see me as a provider right now and I am still digging my way out of a rut, so even though she was upset and had the right ot be it still caused more harm then good. I was in no position to start moving out with the what I had delt with during the year.
So she started looking for someone else and so far has been caught up in these fantacies....
FF, I have read your posts and have found them to be very helpful. I glad your here and offering help to others. If you have a moment to read this post I would really love to hear your perspective on my sitch.

My sitch is unique (like everyone else here) mostly because of my lack of expression of emotion in a healthy way and how easily I would just shut down and not communicate with my W. When we would argue I would stop talking to her and sometimes that would last for days. My inability to express emotions in a healthy way would get worse as time went by because I would just hold it all in. Well of course over time I would be irritable, on edge and even get angry over nothing. This grew into her feeling as though she couldn't tell me about things that she thought would make me angry.(this is what she says anyway) Over time she was hiding a lot of stuff and when I would find out about it I would get angry but the anger was not about the issue but about her feeling like she cant tell me about the issue and that she was hiding things from me because she felt afraid of my reaction. This hurt me deeply. Now yes I admit that I would over react at times but a lot of this is her just not communicating with me and just blaming me for a reaction that I haven't given her. Does that make sense?

My question to you is does it really make sense to go dark on my WAW when this is just the same old ME, closed up and not communicating unless she initiates? I know that right now shes gone and I cant change that and giving her an ultimatum right now doesn't make sense.
Interesting. I think the point of no return for me is when I found out he got OW pregnant when I was giving birth to our first child. A child we had to go through infertility treatments for (both our issues). Then boom she's pregnant and he tells me "Don't you ever wonder that if we were really meant to be together, it wouldn't have been so hard for us to get pregnant?" That was it for me. The sad thing is, I don't think he thought he COULD get OW pregnant. Nobody is even sure that it is his son. But.....

WAS don't realize that sometimes...there are things you just can't take back. I think he knew I wouldn't recover from this new baby. Maybe that's when he truly gave up too. I'll never know.
FightingFit,

This is very insightful. Alot of what you described was exactly what my W was feeling when having her affair. She said she was addicted to OM to. She created a private blog for just him that she would post her fantasies to about him that he could read. She constantly thought about him. I was nowhere in her mind. She was just angry and defensive with me. She said she only regretted the timing of sleeping with him, but not actually sleeping with him. He is 9 years older than her, an athlete that is built, married, and does very well financially. He is witty, charming, and not a coward by any means. He is a tough guy.

W said she had the best sex with him ever. He blew her away. She was totally engulfed in him. I know that she still is in contact with him. We are separated. I have an apartment and she is in the house.

But, she has recently told me that she is going to be going out with other guys. So for her it isn't just the one hot passionate A. But she told me she isn't planning on sleeping around. For whatever thats worth.

So you are saying 2 years at least from the start of the A? Or 2 years after the A is over? In the mean time I am not built with muscles which I guess I have to start doing. Oh, and this really kicked off when she got her awesome paying job and didn't need me financially anymore.

So you think serious regret will kick in then at some point but not anytime soon? She has always said she doesn't live in regret mode because life is to short and so far I have found that to be true for her. I don't know if she is your typical female.

Your post was just really really insightful about the whole thought process during the A. So much of it seemed like my W during hers. Nobody could get through to her in any way at all. And she hid it for months although gave off enough suspicions in her behaviors that I finally was able to uncover it. She was thinking she was going to marry this guy who is already married. But that didn't happen. Now and only this past week she has been nicer to me for the first time in 9 months. But still not having much to do with me. But she is friendly in our encounters this week.

How will I know when and if regret or guilt is starting to set in with her? I have just seen no signs of it yet. Like everyone else on here, I just want to win her back with time. She filed for divorce on me even though I told her I was willing to work through the A. She didn't want to work through it with me.

I'm glad you posted this stuff. It gives us all a really good look inside the mind of someone having an A that probably most of us had no idea what was really going on in that mind.

Kevin
Originally Posted By: pauld2100
well I have made a ton of mistakes. She has a friend that has dragged her into divorce! This "friend" has been in one for over 2 years and my ex has talk me down to almost everyone, I think partly cause she thought she was loosing me before we split but she was wrong and no one can tell her otherwise.
Completely blinded and thinks I am only doing things for me.
If that was true I wouldn't want to be with her kids and love them as I do, so far she has had at least 3 failers with OP and one didn't even want to meet the kids!!! All the while knowing that I was a commited stepdad! If thats not enough of a wake up call then what else could be... This was her choise.

Also she does these little feelings checks with me and I will not allow that anymore. I don't think she really cares, and I think she misses me, I am the only one who has ever loved her the way she like to be and maybe fighting that everyday so enough is enough for me, she has let her out of control feelings run everything, I can't save her or the kids at this point she will not have it.
I don't know how she will take it but I have not contacted her for anything again for another 2 weeks and have to get out. I think she knows something is comming. Sad thing is I see she has things in our room cards from me notes I have left for her, she doesn't remove them but has them placed around the room!!??!?! She can't be any kind of friend and I wish I could be that in hopes of being the better choise but so far I have proven over and over that I am and she still continues the BS.
I won't make a threat I am simply going to leave, I may leave a note explaining that I don't want to see her at all. after I move. The kids have been so hurt by her actions and grabs at anything to place the blame. They will pay the most! I will try and keep them a part but will ony do that through someone else as well. No need for he to know about me anymore, she has not shown that she cares to anyway....


Paul everything you said in this post is great. Its great for YOU... yanno we spend so much TIME fighting for our marriage we forget about our health, our mental WELLBEING, how we ARE, and we can become so depressed and in such a bad place that we end up seriously, seriously in trouble. WHen your in "crisis" mode, which you are when you are "fighting" for the marriage, your only focus is ON fighting - it isnt on your own wellbeing only what you WANT to happen, and you truly think, because of the PAIN, that if this ends and she returns to me and I WIN this, then the PAIN will go away and I will feel better.

The truth is otherwise actually in a lot of the case; once the euphoria passed you would still be left with the damage inflicted upon you and you would still need to deal with that, not bottle it up inside or ignore it, and a big part of you would feel so hurt and mistrustful that you would have a hard time letting it all go.

So decide right now to begin taking care of yourself! as a NUMBER ONE PRIORITY! because guess what - SHE is.
Mr Mom... I understand your regret over your failures in your marriage. And its commendable too. AND so healthy and necessary that we see them and see our part in a marriage breakdown.

But ONE thing you ALSO need to consider is this - you were always that way and for a long time she was fine with you BEING that way, it was clearly acceptable enough for her, and part of your personality, a part she didnt like sure but we all have things we dont like in our partner (bad temper, nasty silent treatment, not listening, we ALL have them.) REmember that when someone has an affair, they will do and say anything to justify it and no i am not saying they are LYING, those issues ARE real, but they are also used to camoflauge and explain BAD IMMORAL BEHAVIOUR and you have a RIGHT to point that out at all times in a loving way.

ie "I hear you saying I never listened to you and I was emotionally absent and I agree, and I believe I am working on that very much FOR MY OWN SAKE - but it doesnt excuse you for having an affair and trying to walk out on this marriage with another MAN before trying to work out our marriage."

you can only apologise and grovel so long for mistakes made in the marriage - if they are not prepared to accept your apology and take A RISK ON YOU to see if you really ARE trying to change then ask yourself (and THEM) this! "Why is is you were very ready to take a dangerous and RECKLESS and IMMORAL risk with this MAN, when you are not prepared to take a risk for ME and our MARRIAGE?" it is a GOOD question and its a VALID one.

Other things to point out to the cheating OW: if this other man is so supurb I wonder why he finds it ok to be a homewrecker and not WAIT FOR YOU? ie I beleive if he were a REAL man he'd want to be sure you were making the right choice and surely he'd want to have some INTEGRITY and tell you to not COME BACK til it was OVER. says a lot about what kind of man he is?!?! do you WANT that kind of man? if he did it with you he can do it TO YOU. better hope a sexy 19 yo doesnt come prowling!

Absolutely yes shes going to regret her behavior and for sure not giving it more of a try with you but the point is it can be all too late by then for you, if you move on emotionally (DETACH) and then its too late to regret anything anyway. And heres the kicker Mr Mom: your working on yourself now and is she FULLY PREPARED to take the risk that another woman might just end up with ALL HER HARD WORK (and thats exactly what happens yanno!)

regarding the fact you were always emotionally absent so you wonder if going dark now is good for anything, your probably right, i would guess she 'tests' you. but the point is you should tell her "no testing. you want to know how prepared I am to change and how much I want to be different then you be my wife to see that change, because its not fair to ME to make me express how I feel to you when you dont care". and it isnt, either, is it.

in your case... you might think of expressing these thoughts into a compassionate, logical letter to her; make it warm and loving (demonstrating your change!) but not whining or begging. give her some points to think about.

then leave it in her court. work on you. love your life as much as you can. put your head down and one foot in front of the other. one day you'll look up and the worst is past.
kevin...

it works like this. When you no longer want her back and no longer crave to see her regret...

thats when it occurs.

thats how life works. She'll find out the hard way....
Your right!

I did go into fight mode. One thing I forgot to mention was in the beginning she was asking for sometime time, well this is where I really F'ed up! Instead of letting it be and being patient I was frustrated. She wanted to date for a while but told me there’s no guarantee that we would make it, well I did go out with her a few times and she kept me dangling you know?
So I was getting upset at this point and started to rebel myself you could say and didn’t do as she wanted and left her hanging a few times. Didn’t call her too much and cancelled lunch meetings with her after I had asked her to go. What I didn’t realize was she was trying to do something to rekindle I think, now that I look back. But also felt like she was just keeping me on a string. She was really happy about one lunch we were going to go to and I cancelled and she was upset after that I really didn’t think she wanted to go as much as she lead on but I think I was wrong.
I was reading signals and doing my best to not be a doormat and save our M.
I am pretty good at reading her but she was being a little elusive or maybe I was wrong about that. I had offered once to stay for three months so she could make a choice and so she could see what she was asking for.
She came back with well after three months and I see real change then we will see and added no guarantee again. This is where I started messing up bad! I didn’t do what she asked and continued to push or pull and get back home sooner, and not for only me. I knew she would have a harder time as well.
And didn’t want her to think I am just here at your whim. I was really confused by her actions at this point.
I was in no position to be dating her and taking her out to the nice dinners and special things I have done for her, I know this is a part of what she wanted and would love to have done that for her yet I was still in a battle of my own and little did she realize it was also for her and the family as a whole by getting through this lawsuit and getting back to work.
So I was coming across as needy, I think she saw my weaker side and I was at that point. I was upset myself for her expecting this while I was I somewhat of a crisis. I did want to get home as she has put it, but not for just me. I was also a bit worried about her meeting with that friend of hers. She was a divorcee and had run her husband off and started dating also so she was filling my W with ideas and I could see this clear as day!
So I made bad choices, said some stupid things and watched her get angrier. So at one point she decided she didn’t want to see me for a while and this is when she got on the dating sight, she didn’t tell me that directly just said she couldn’t talk to me for a while and I should move out. Of course this sent me into high gear again! I chased I tried to woo her and that just sent her farther away!
I know what I have done to mess this up….
Not giving her space and more…
I guess at this point I have backed off and she is still moving farther away… I am doing what I have to for me I really have. I can only see a few things that make me wonder if she maybe regretting this herself.
Will my going dark again do any good? Is there anything I could do to show what she needed to see with little to no contact…. Should I move and that would seem to be dark! When she says she misses me even after her dating others is this a good thing? Should I tell her what your H told you? And really hit it home that I am going to be gone?

I know I maybe giving to much info, If I am let me know…
I also want to thank you again…. I was hoping someone that has been on the other side would share so we could see what the real nitty gritty that was really going on with A’s and infidelity!!!!
yea the problem is paul we cant read signals with our partner anymore bc they arent the same person, thats why that fails so baaad.

and i know this stuff from experience, never read any of these books. thats the sad thing for me... but I wish I had them at the time.

I think its time you stopped asking if going dark would do any good for THE MARRIAGE and ask if it would do good FOR YOU. it certainly has for me; ive had time to do a lot of personal growth and thinking and self realisation/love/forgiveness.

in the end if the fight comes down to saving your marriage, or your SOUL, what are you going to choose, particularly if SHE isnt fighting for the marriage. see?

it feels like giving up - but in actuality, the crisis and pain becomes so acute that in the end its not about giving up on the marriage but in fact deciding NOT TO GIVE UP ON YOUR SOUL.
Yes I see...
Your right she is like someone else completly! It's been almost 3 weeks...
And that is where I am now... One thing that happened a couple days ago and I didn't think much about it. She had asked where I lived but I was pretty sure she just wanted to send my mail and I really didnt know the address by heart yet...So I didnt give it to her.
So I was going to store and there she was driving by on the main street... I think she saw me but not sure and she kept going, so I just passed it off as nothing but I was reading one of your post and you had said your H wouldnt give you his address and that had to hurt for you I'm sorry! So I thought maybe she was driving by the main street beause she didnt know my address??

Sad thing is the last time I saw her I had let a bit of frustration out and so left on a bad note and wish I hadent..As I was going she again said it's over so I just left....
As for the kids I don't know if trying to see them without her would be I good idea, It's so emostionaly draining to see them they sometimes ask If I am coming home and I have to give them the run around... I cant say anything about that to them...

I have a letter from her it was just after I left the house and back when she was still considering getting back togehter, If I can send it to you some how, I know theres a way to send masages directly but note sure how... I would like you to read it if you can, if you don't mind...

Thanks again, Your right I am detaching and being the man, I am! No matter what she says. If she doesnt notice then.....

Paul
...

try to keep seeing the kids. those kids are hurting too. If they ask you hard questions just answer truthfully but without badmouthing your wife. I know its a bit upsetting but it does get better, and kids really get scared thinking you will never see them again... or lessen the contact to practically just a distant relative...

right now you have to just live your life and do what feels right but at the same time respectfully to your wife and the kids - she might not act respectful to you, but you dont need to act badly just bc she is. you'll always be proud later that you were kind and always polite/civil and kind.

its early days for her to notice anything as such yet - this can be along process. it doesnt mean you should give up all hope or anything. it just means you need to be patient but also very kind and patient TO YOURSELF...

in the end theres so little any of us can do, to convince someone else they are making a mistake. it really is their choice to decide.
I was being kind and that day, I did simply return her anger that day not as bad as she was dishing it out but I did and knew right away it was wrong…
If I ask to see the kids knowing how she acts now she would do the opposite of everything I try to do… Even when they are asking to see me, I don’t think my sd has asked to see me but ss has asked me directly… I don’t even really want to talk to her so I will probably have to contact him myself and find a way to see him without her.. I really think she will find an excuse to not let me see him. That last meeting she was accusing me of coming to see her when he had asked me to come over…. See my dilemma? Seems anything she can find to stir up a fight and seriously it could be over any little thing that I do… No matter how kind or thoughtful it is….. I will have to do better at seeing them...

Flight,
I havent asked you about your sitch you have helped so much with mine and literally brought some peace to my sitch...
Any good out come latley? I hope it has....

PD
Flight,
I was reading what your H did to you, I wonder if I should do this also. I know she's not contacting me and has really pushed me away but also at one point said I was walking away... of course I wasnet but she was lost and didn't want to remeber that she pushed me out... my things are still in the house and I have to either move or get on with life. She is not pushing me to move out and I have wondered about this for a while.
The last time she called and I came and helped her with her car and she almost started crying! I think I have to lay it down, I can't stay like this and have a friend in another state that is willing to set me up with a place and work and think I will be going... So should I do this not knowing what she up to and a little suprised that she hasent contacted me at all in about 3 weeks... it's been 7 months since we split.. you rember what happened on our last meeting...the only thing i have to go on is I can see her personal little struggle with some feeling for me as much as she hides it..???

I don't want to do this over an e-mail either but face to face would be best right? I would just e-mail and say I need to talk to her and leave it at that...??
paul im no guru, I cant tell you what truly is best for you... yanno one of the biggest things i hear from you is your lack of self trust...

you post on here, you an empathetic feeling man... at the end of the day we all do what we feel is right, and live with those choices, and we do it for US not them or the marriage...

only you know what is exactly right for you, not THE MARRIAGE. not HER. not GETTING HER BACK. just for you, as a person. dont ever do anything in rage, or anger, or despair; thats my only real advice .
Originally Posted By: FightingFit
Mr Mom... I understand your regret over your failures in your marriage. And its commendable too. AND so healthy and necessary that we see them and see our part in a marriage breakdown.

But ONE thing you ALSO need to consider is this - you were always that way and for a long time she was fine with you BEING that way, it was clearly acceptable enough for her, and part of your personality, a part she didnt like sure but we all have things we dont like in our partner (bad temper, nasty silent treatment, not listening, we ALL have them.) REmember that when someone has an affair, they will do and say anything to justify it and no i am not saying they are LYING, those issues ARE real, but they are also used to camoflauge and explain BAD IMMORAL BEHAVIOUR and you have a RIGHT to point that out at all times in a loving way.

ie "I hear you saying I never listened to you and I was emotionally absent and I agree, and I believe I am working on that very much FOR MY OWN SAKE - but it doesnt excuse you for having an affair and trying to walk out on this marriage with another MAN before trying to work out our marriage."

you can only apologise and grovel so long for mistakes made in the marriage - if they are not prepared to accept your apology and take A RISK ON YOU to see if you really ARE trying to change then ask yourself (and THEM) this! "Why is is you were very ready to take a dangerous and RECKLESS and IMMORAL risk with this MAN, when you are not prepared to take a risk for ME and our MARRIAGE?" it is a GOOD question and its a VALID one.

Other things to point out to the cheating OW: if this other man is so supurb I wonder why he finds it ok to be a homewrecker and not WAIT FOR YOU? ie I beleive if he were a REAL man he'd want to be sure you were making the right choice and surely he'd want to have some INTEGRITY and tell you to not COME BACK til it was OVER. says a lot about what kind of man he is?!?! do you WANT that kind of man? if he did it with you he can do it TO YOU. better hope a sexy 19 yo doesnt come prowling!

Absolutely yes shes going to regret her behavior and for sure not giving it more of a try with you but the point is it can be all too late by then for you, if you move on emotionally (DETACH) and then its too late to regret anything anyway. And heres the kicker Mr Mom: your working on yourself now and is she FULLY PREPARED to take the risk that another woman might just end up with ALL HER HARD WORK (and thats exactly what happens yanno!)

regarding the fact you were always emotionally absent so you wonder if going dark now is good for anything, your probably right, i would guess she 'tests' you. but the point is you should tell her "no testing. you want to know how prepared I am to change and how much I want to be different then you be my wife to see that change, because its not fair to ME to make me express how I feel to you when you dont care". and it isnt, either, is it.

in your case... you might think of expressing these thoughts into a compassionate, logical letter to her; make it warm and loving (demonstrating your change!) but not whining or begging. give her some points to think about.

then leave it in her court. work on you. love your life as much as you can. put your head down and one foot in front of the other. one day you'll look up and the worst is past.


Thank you FF for the great advice and kind words. I did give her a letter and I posted that in my thread. The balls in her court now so I'm back to working on myself. The funny thing was that she didn't say "Its to little to late" which was her key phase when I was doing the begging and pleading in the beginning. She really seemed torn and I could see the sorrow and pain in her eyes. I asked her if she wanted to talk but she said no so I left it at that.
Fighting Fit,

Sorry for the hijack but could not find her (FF's) thread...

FF -I posted to you on postively mommys' if you get a chance. It touches on issues you raise in your other posts.

J-

your right again flight,

Self trust, second geussing myself and back peddling on any thought I might have.

I am just leaving things alone for now....

I will be respectful and can only hope for the best!

Hope your good!

PD
Thanks paul, I have good days and bad, but I can truly say, approaching my 3 year mark, mostly good. I do have red buttons, and those red buttons, if pushed, can send me off into a spiral, but I have identified most of them now...

its all about working on myself now, trying to heal as best as I can and just move forward. I am SO beyond caring if I ever get another partner - I did the whole rebound thing, that seriously sucked - now I can actually confortably see myself single for life and justing living quietly. Half the time I imagine I have to much emotional baggage to expect anyone else to carry for me anyway. If I can help other people---- im doing something. as for help for me - there really isnt any in my situation. I have to help myself, thru god, prayer, and doing some good in this world because you know what? NONE of us get stuff thats truly unfair. i really believe that. if it was my karma then I can spend a LONG time overcoming that karma... and intend to

your a person in your own right. your partner doesnt make you who you are. you are you. you were you before you met her and you will be you after shes gone. When the fear of being ALONE finally wears off, you look around and realise its just not that bad anyway. SURE its a lovely idea to have someone to share things with intimately, but you will STILL have other people to share MOST stuff in life with - and thats EVEN IF YOU NEVER FALL IN LOVE AGAIN! its only ONE aspect of life. I can ASSURE you as a girl who lived with her partner since 16 years old, you DO get to a point where you are pretty much OK... and in SOME ways, begin to wonder if you could ever really give up your independant ways if you wanted to !

ive had plenty of offers, and none interest me whatsover, im in the process of still just 'recovery' right now, and im doin that for ME. dont care if i never have another man. its just not on my 'important' list anymore.
Funny you say that about not being interested in enyone I am with you on that one! Since I have been reading so many stories good and bad it has made me hope that I can do a 180 for me and have to do this not to win her back.
If she did try I don't know if I could be with her anymore no matter how much I love her. Like you said in one of your posts we erode until there's nothing left....
Sad thing is I see this happening more often these days people running around out of control and R's get bashed from all directions, having integrity seems to not be the important factor in the M anymore....
You are a wealth of information that can save other's M's. You have a gift I think! Hope you can keep doing this...

Thank you
Oh and since I talk to much I'm sure I will find more things to talk about smile

Flight

I know some days good some days bad, so ture! One thing that scares me is that I hear people on here and they have had to deal with one A and for me with her running from one to another to another... OW
You also said something so true... We know our partners even though she is a diffrent person I can see the same person to doing this, you know? She has done things diffrent that would have made me want to stay if she was doing this while I was there but is doing this with people that don't really know about her or care, and have proven this to her and still! anyway thought I could throw that out..
Guess this is the really heard part for me...
I am staying with NC ans staying dark...
Still NC from her..
paul hi

yea well theres nothing wrong with hoping and holding onto it. you can do that and go dark at once, if your mentally strong...

just remember to take care of you when going dark... get to a gyom my man! work OUT. go HIKING (that really means just go walking where bikes cant go.) learn to COOK. in fact, become AWESOME. you dont need books just GOOGLE the recipes. then COOK them. amaze yourself. its fun. (I leanrnt to become a really great cook and its the best thing from the breakup ever.) potter in your garden. plant some herbs. be a fool an go to the early morning markets for fruit and veg. GET OUT THERE. and do it alone and do it for you.

and each time you find yourself having fun, and you will, you will think "if only she could see me". but remember its not about her. its about you... getting on and realising theres a pretty wonderful assortment of things to do in this life but you have to actually DO them to realise they are fun.

some things you'll give up on somethings, tho, you will take to and adopt, things surprising even. things you never did before. Go to the horse races, see some car shows, stuff you didnt normally do. its amazing how much is out there you never explored bc you were in a relationship. friends may ask you to a concert or out and you will want to say no, but go. find a new music genre. paint your house. learn to whiten whites. experiement with crepes.

BECOME AWESOME.

Once again funny you say that about a concert, I was asked by a women to go... She was not asking directly but was hinting .... I may go just to do something but I think her intentions are other wise...
And I loved to cook already but can do more of that...
LOL whiten whites yes that is good guys don't do this often...
Thanks for the ideas, need to hear those...


Hope things are good for you!

Flight,
One thing I waned to ask, my not contacting her.. will she look at me as the "bad guy" when she's in this frame of mind... you know? even when I was contacting her she would not answer the phone or return messages? Now that I don't it will be my fault in her eyes?
Hey Fighting Fit,

When you get a chance, I'd like your input on my current sitch.

thanks!
stuck I have tried for the life of me but cant find your post, im sorry im not very proficient with this site, theres a lot here. can you help me out, title or something?

PAUL... my friend, your gonna be the bad guy no matter what you do thats why we go dark, because at least then, we cant be blamed for sticking our noses in and trying to hard. it doesnt mean you dont respond to HER should she come to YOU, but basically means you concentrate on your life, and respond only when asked to.

in the end no amount of advice really matters to your sitch believe me - advice only helps YOU not the marriage; thats up to her as well, if shes not going to be in there helping it then its going to fail. One person alone cant make a two person marraige work. its like rowing a boat with one oar. you go in circles. you can HOPE she comes to the boat and picks up that oar but you must get on with life realising, she may never.
Hi FightingFit,

Here is the link.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1782759#Post1782759

I know, it's a little confusing getting around here now with the new layout.

Thanks in advance.
QUESTIONS WE ALL HAVE ABOUT THE AFFAIR... and ANSWERED.

1) Do they love them more than they did me?
No. They are infatuated however, and probably the last time they were infatuated was 20 years ago. Infatuation is a strong emotion. Remember your first? right. Imagine that all over again. Now. dont be jealous. its not that great to be 'infatuated' as an adult and acting like an idiot. People will go to great lengths for the 'fantasy' for their feelings.

2) Is the sex better? is it all about the sex?
yes and no. the sex is NEW. not better. stop beating yourself up thinking your a dud in bed. no, your just OLD in bed. but in truth, the lovemaking you had had history. so you want to know heres how it is: its exciting with a new person because its all new. but the old partner had all our buttons down. TRUTH. so stop comparing. or wondering.

3) What do they see in him/her?
They see someone who thinks they are fantastic. great; sexy amazing and smart. They see someone they dont know very well and feel desperate to know every single inch of them (refer to infatuation.) They like the mystery, the newness, more than anything. but heres the REAL ANSWER: they can reinvent themselves and be someone else. NICE, when you have been sick of who you are for years. they can be DIFFERENT.

4) What does he/she see in HIM/HER?
someone to save most likely. Dont kid yourself, the OP isnt an evil being. Your spouse has lied to to them a lot and cried on their shoulder and told a lot of fibs about how hard done by and misunderstood and ignored they are, to justify why they are there, with them, and NOT with their spouse. This OP truly beleives you dont appreciate them, know them, or care except for yourself. this OP truly thinks that your spouse deserves to be 'appreciated'. They feel quite justified; if you had loved them better it wouldnt have happened - its not their fault. their mantra is "your marriage was in trouble before I came along". the fact they're right does cause a bit of a sting. but dont be fooled, it doesnt take away what they did.

WILL IT LAST?
Probably not. But I wouldnt hold my breath waiting. The average is 2 years but 5 is not rare. However in MOST Cases, during the 2 to 5 year mark theres no longer YOU to blame anymore and the excitement has died down a lot. The spouse doesnt need 'saving' from you anymore - your probably long gone. What generally happens is, boredom sets in. Lets face it an affair and then a marriage/family breakup is really exciting. Rather humdrum after thats all gone. The OP often ends up running away with an old friend actually. (they were both really surprised!)

IF MY SPOUSE CHEATED ON ME WILL THEY EVER COME BACK?
depends and its individual. Some dont. the shame can keep many away from even trying. even after its long over. So, theres often not much point in holding on for the breakup. After that happens they generally just have double heartache to get over - the one with you they never faced, and now this.

IF THEY CHEATED ONCE WILL THEY AGAIN?
two answers to this. one is YES some will because a line was crossed and guess what the world didnt end. one is NO because so much pain was experienced they wont be touching that stove again. You have to make up your own mind. Certainly cheating with no consquences would lead to more cheating.
Thanks FF. I've been reading all your posts to try to understand what my W is going through. You've helped me more than you know, especially with your comments that it takes 18-24 months after your A ended for you to really get OM out of your system and to start letting your H back in.

She had an 9 month A. I discovered it after 6 months. OM is a player who has had multiple A's on his W. I exposed to OMW, that pretty much ended the A, but W kept trying to get together with him (he had moved about 200 miles away right before I found out for sure) for another 5 months as they were still talking through email/IM (just like your 2nd or 3rd post said).

March a year ago I saw on her cell that she tried to get OM to visit again and he blew her off with some lame excuse and that was my breaking point. I made an appointment with a lawyer, I drove to our S20's school and told him and when I got home I told S17. S17 shredded his mom. He was brutal with her. And that was the end of the A.

It's been a long year since with periods of distance from her and periods of closeness and intimacy. The last 3 months or so she seems to be really figuring it out, but still doesn't wear her wedding rings or say 'I love you'.

I'm trying my best to be patient, but it's so darn hard when we have these periods of great times but there's that one thing holding her back. I'm assuming it's the guilt. And right now, things are pretty good for her. She doesn't have to move forward which would require her facing her demons and she doesn't have to go back, because I haven't pushed her to really deal with the A (understanding how it happened, etc.)

Ok, this got longer than I intended. I'm over in Piecing if you want to read more.

And I'll second what you say about OP's not being better in bed even though it's "new" and exciting. OMW told me that OM started ordering some herbal thingie off the internet (after he started sleeping with my W but before she or I knew) that is supposed to make your "manhood" larger. LOL. Guess all his A's are trying to make up for other things lacking in his makeup!

Flight,
I think if you click on stucks name it gives you the option to see his posts....
18 to 24 months after the A ends is how long I can expect to wait to see any changes? Wow. But in my case, W is still pursuing addional OM after the first A. She told me she would be going out with other guys. I feel like I am really screwed in that sense because it isn't just one A, but looks like multiple ones coming. We are separated. She filed for D but then let it get dismissed but still has nothing to do with me unless she needs something or it relates to the kids.

What can I expect out of this? Like so many others, she used to be the loving caring faithful saving marriages type of W. And I blew it in so many ways.

Thoughts?

Kevin

Kevin
My thought is that you should follow what people have been writing to you on your own thread.

Kevin, everyone's told you time and time again what's going to happen and what you should do. Coming to a different thread isn't going to change the answer you're looking for.

Plus it's not an exact science. If your W wants to come back after 1, 5 or 25 years, that's up to her. What are you going to do in the meantime?

kevin,
I am in your same sitch! Sucks! I know it's hard to listen to stuck and everyone else....

I know what your going through more then others maybe because of the similarities! I have been told as well do what you have to for you! If you try harder to fix this it might not turn out as you want....

Again I know I tried! Mulitple dating by my W not just one! Flight can help allot to understand. You have to decide...
I know you want to work things out and may know the whys and hows... All you can do is show her and stay out of the way! As bad as it hurts! I know this personally! Back off of her for a while no calls unless absolutely necessary! If you live with her then don't be the same old guy is all I can say at this point.... No pressure....

PD
Kevin,
Here's a post I found... Please read it carefully! I know how so many peole giving you input at one time can baffle you, it happened to me... there are parts that apply to you...

I was also sucked in by my W and thought I was doing the right thing... your not a doormat! Read back through your posts and read carefully!

Here's a post from someone that did this....


serendipity17

LRT can work! Absolutely no question about it. My sitch was as bad as they come, my W was totally gone. I don’t want to hijack here but a quick review, She went to Vegas and had an affair after 18 years of being faithful. She must have liked something about the experience because she just went nuts after that. She got into everything, Internet chatting, internet porn, internet personals, phone sex, and of course PA’s. She wanted a D! No if’s and’s or but’s!

I believe the trick with going dark is believing it yourself. I “went dark” and tried to GAL several times but I didn’t really mean it. If W would show the slightest interest I would try to cling to it. Ok long story short, I finally got fed up and I really mean I was fed up. I issued an ultimatum and I meant it. W told me to &^&*% my self so I filed for D. Now how dark is that! A few weeks later I went on a date with someone I had met at a wedding dance, it was no big deal. A week after that guess who shows up crying and begging, yup W!

This time I didn’t jump at the chance in fact I pushed her away. She kept coming back and we did go to some counseling but after careful consideration I have decided to move on with my life. The point is that it can work, even in the worst possible situation and what they say is true. Even if your S doesn’t come back you will be a better, stronger person.

By the way, my W still wants to reconcile but I have made my decision that I do not want to spend another 18 years with her. I know my life is going to be better with out her in it.
Stuck,

This particular thread caught my interest because of how closely FF described thoughts I read from my own W during her A. The thought process was so strikingly similar, it made me curious. And I mean stuff like the addiction W has mentioned, and the other feelings and actions are just very close to my W's thought process. It really gave a great insight to the mind of a W having a torrid A.

So I just thought I would ask. Thanks everyone.

Kevin
Kev,

your sitch is way way different and you are again grasping for straws. You have a thread of your own with 100 people who know your sitch posting to you but you don't like what you see there, so you come to other places where you can hear different answers...and take some more polls until someone tells you the magic secret to get your w back. There is NO MAGIC SECRET... THis all takes TIME and how often can we ALL tell you that? You have been at it for less than 6 months!! (KEVIN4 re-read that. 6 MONTHS and btw, again, can you look at some other posters HERE and see THEIR time lines, mine included?)
Your impatience is to the point of being just ridiculous. You have yet to go 24 hours without mentioning your w...

Makes it really really hard to post to you the way we do Kev4. We take SO MUCH TIME for you, and get ignored and then begged to post some more to you....I have literally spent about 2 full work weeks in total, OR MORE, posting to you...just to get you to see a c... These people are not in your sitch at all. Really. The feelings may be the same but the ACTIONS are not. this has to be the last 2 x 4 Kev...I'm frustrated as heck. (Folks --check his thread if you think I'm being too harsh on him. I am not. OMG)

...Kev4, you know, if you actually stuck to ONE healthy action plan, for more than a day or two, who knows what would happen? But you won't. So i guess we'll never know.

(sorry for the hijack FF et al)

j-
Kevin,

Your sitch is totally different. Once an ultimatum was issued, FF felt bad and asked for forgiveness. Your W, however, not only had an A, but kicked you out of the house, tells you she's going out with other men and keeps talking down to you.

It comes down to one thing. Respect.

Your W doesn't respect you. I have to give 25mlc credit because she's stayed with you alot longer than most. I admit I still read your posts, but have no replies because they are all the same.

25's right. There is no quick and easy answer. Especially in your sitch. Go to your C tomorrow and learn. Geez I think everyone's already told you this. In your post, you even wrote about how you would never talk about your kids being a hassle (in not so many words) like your W. But wasn't it you who was complaining about your oldest D wanting something you couldn't afford and you saying that she was a lost cause from being influenced by your W and MIL? You did the same thing.

Seriously read everything people post to you and process. I couldn't believe you were questioning why playing poker wasn't GAL after I don't know how many people told you why.

Stick to your thread and work it out.

Sorry for the hijack too FF.
Originally Posted By: FightingFit
QUESTIONS WE ALL HAVE ABOUT THE AFFAIR... and ANSWERED.

1) Do they love them more than they did me?
No. They are infatuated however, and probably the last time they were infatuated was 20 years ago. Infatuation is a strong emotion. Remember your first? right. Imagine that all over again. Now. dont be jealous. its not that great to be 'infatuated' as an adult and acting like an idiot. People will go to great lengths for the 'fantasy' for their feelings.

2) Is the sex better? is it all about the sex?
yes and no. the sex is NEW. not better. stop beating yourself up thinking your a dud in bed. no, your just OLD in bed. but in truth, the lovemaking you had had history. so you want to know heres how it is: its exciting with a new person because its all new. but the old partner had all our buttons down. TRUTH. so stop comparing. or wondering.

3) What do they see in him/her?
They see someone who thinks they are fantastic. great; sexy amazing and smart. They see someone they dont know very well and feel desperate to know every single inch of them (refer to infatuation.) They like the mystery, the newness, more than anything. but heres the REAL ANSWER: they can reinvent themselves and be someone else. NICE, when you have been sick of who you are for years. they can be DIFFERENT.

4) What does he/she see in HIM/HER?
someone to save most likely. Dont kid yourself, the OP isnt an evil being. Your spouse has lied to to them a lot and cried on their shoulder and told a lot of fibs about how hard done by and misunderstood and ignored they are, to justify why they are there, with them, and NOT with their spouse. This OP truly beleives you dont appreciate them, know them, or care except for yourself. this OP truly thinks that your spouse deserves to be 'appreciated'. They feel quite justified; if you had loved them better it wouldnt have happened - its not their fault. their mantra is "your marriage was in trouble before I came along". the fact they're right does cause a bit of a sting. but dont be fooled, it doesnt take away what they did.

WILL IT LAST?
Probably not. But I wouldnt hold my breath waiting. The average is 2 years but 5 is not rare. However in MOST Cases, during the 2 to 5 year mark theres no longer YOU to blame anymore and the excitement has died down a lot. The spouse doesnt need 'saving' from you anymore - your probably long gone. What generally happens is, boredom sets in. Lets face it an affair and then a marriage/family breakup is really exciting. Rather humdrum after thats all gone. The OP often ends up running away with an old friend actually. (they were both really surprised!)

IF MY SPOUSE CHEATED ON ME WILL THEY EVER COME BACK?
depends and its individual. Some dont. the shame can keep many away from even trying. even after its long over. So, theres often not much point in holding on for the breakup. After that happens they generally just have double heartache to get over - the one with you they never faced, and now this.

IF THEY CHEATED ONCE WILL THEY AGAIN?
two answers to this. one is YES some will because a line was crossed and guess what the world didnt end. one is NO because so much pain was experienced they wont be touching that stove again. You have to make up your own mind. Certainly cheating with no consquences would lead to more cheating.


FF, won't go point by point b/c I agree with most of it and what I don't agree with is not important enough. I wanted to say I'm glad I found THIS thread of yours b/c it's healthier than the angry one I saw the other day. I see YOU ARE making progress and there is not the constant "consumption by anger" (my term and I think it works, ??) I worried about with you (and felt myself way back when...) One little thing about sex with the new...don't understate the importance of the familiar though. I shudder to think of what it'd be like to have someone else see MY stretch marks from giving birth and they're not hideous or anything...but they're private. And a guy kissed me about 2 years ago (long story but NOT invited by me, we shared a sad story and I "let" him hug me with my butt out, if you know what I mean, and HE MAULED me and here's the deal...it was gross!! I mean, ZERO "turn on b/c he's new" and I never missed my h more than I did that minute! POint is, our partners know we hate sushi but love shrimp or recall that the Rolling Stones are a great band STILL and who the idiot at Joe's wedding was and the birth of OUR children, etc. I think the WAS misses far more than we realize and I KNOW my h did. He noticed more than I thought at the time and he missed us, actually at times ached for us ALL without my knowing. Until much later. Sure, it might not be happening. Sure maybe your h is having 10 orgasms a minute, and OW reads his mind ALL the time, and is never tired or grumpy or has a bad day, and is so smart that she knows ALL the things you know AND more, and always is in the mood, and earns six figures, and looks like a model, and cooks like a chef, and speaks 5 languages and and and...Wait, what's that? She's a HUMAN??? OMG!!!! Call 911!!!...she may have flaws!! yeah -- and they WILL surface...in time....in time.... (sigh)

I also posted a piece about shame, to Stuck. Not "meant for" him or you but due to a book I recently read that deeply resonated with me ("Blue Like Jazz"--deals with our faith and how we incorporate it AND how we can misuse it AND I'm guilty of that so don't think I'm getting preachy, I'm "confessing" if you will)


But one last comment---Except for the part about "A" timelines ( I READ most A's last less than a year with 6 months being average...but you know, who cares about the "average" I guess? I mean wth does it matter if they ain't home? But I did want to know the source of that b/c I get asked it a lot and have a bf going thru stuff and I gave her DB materials but her h....is "off" for now, if you kwim so I'm trying to be helpful. If there is good research out there that says a diff LONGER timeline, I'd like to pass it on to her...

BACK TO EARTH.. Again, I am guilty of doing this. And what does not fit you, and maybe NONE of it does, can get chucked -- or passed on to someone who it does fit...(BTW, again, very glad to see THIS post of yours....congrats...you've had a tough blow and you are getting that now, life is all about you. And that ain't a bad thing! And yes, I relate to the idea that if/when the WAS wants back in, the healthy LBSer who has GAL HESITATES to make sure things WILL indeed be different....way way different and on both sides. Why do any of this if it could lead to another blow like the one we all had? For me, this "MLC Poop" and DBing, yes, it made me a better person BUT it's a once in a lifetime thing, for sure...)

Most LBSers at some point try to guilt or shame the WAS into coming home. We say "How could you?" and "This is immoral, wrong, selfish, a SIN, against God's will, etc." (I know I did.)
I have given a lot of thought to this. Here's my opinion and it is mainly based on personal experience and my opinion, but see Sandi's response sometimes, as an almost WAW...)

SHAME and why it sucks for all[/u][/color]
Shaming a WAS into "trying again" ALWAYS FAILS IN THE LONG RUN, EVEN IF THE WAS COMES HOME[/b]... yes I mean that literally.

No couples reconcile for good, and I mean RECONCILE, (I don't mean move back in the home b/c true restoration of the M and reconciliation, mean a lot more than living under the same roof... b/c of shame...

Again I speak from experience on this, okay? Been there, done that.

IMO, No WAS who feels shamed into coming home, will again feel loving, or warm or affectionate or attracted towards the source of the shame. And that source of the shame won't be the WAS' past action or OP. At some point, the source of the shame IS the LBSer. I see this particularly for the LBSer who guilts the WAS into returning by misusing God or religion, or family/societal approval to get the WAS back. (I KNOW You are over that part of this, FF, I get it and your sitch is pretty unusual)
They "expose" the sinner to shame and hurt their position in the family or community, and while they claim to forgive, it is NOT the real kind of forgiveness modelled by Christ (and those of other religions who really forgive). It is the kind of fake forgiveness wherein the LBSer acts as if they are the sole victims of a problematic M, they wear their "forgiveness" as a badge of sainthood, and are smug & judgmental about it often, so you cannot ever disagree with them due to their moral superiority or scripture quoting skills (quoting scripture is SOMETIMES used to "be right" or "Win an argument" and can you imagine how our Creator feels about THAT?...) and some LBSers feel OWED by the WAS (what happened to forgiving and letting go and) blah blah blah, and they might throw it in the WAS's face or LOOK LIKE THEY ARE ABOUT TO every time a conflict arises so the sword of Damacles is forever over their head....so many LBSers do this and wonder why the WAS again finds someone else, or simply leaves again, for good.
[/color]

To me, that is the shame of this all. And if this does not apply to you or only in part, fine. Just wanted to post it. And the book reminded me of it so much. I highly recommend it to ALL.

((( j )))






That's great info...

One thing I would like to add is now that I know more of what is going on thanks to Flight, Stuck and all here. It also brings a reality that in order to break a routine of everyday life for the WAS in the determined way they are can also bring a sense of urgency to LBS’s like me! I also did this against the advice of others here. Now Flight has really helped by ending up on the other side of this at a cost to her life!

I personally would love to see someone like Flight and anyone that came to this point after the damage to really help her! I know it’s a dream right now and even if someone does it may not do any good…. With all this good information I have now and no way to express it to my WAS it is very frustrating to watch this continue…. Flight when you were in the fog nothing could be said right? But something could be done! IE being a real 2 x 4 or just stay out of the circle?

Again my sitch has other factors like the accident. I want to forgive my W and probably could…. If we were even talking at all I think we could…. She has gone much farther then a shuttering kiss unfortunately and I know she is missing me a little but will not act on it…. She said she wanted me to know what she wants without having to tell me long before this we reached this point! Well I did and do… Will she start missing that I am the one who knows her inside and out and miss it so much? It’s been over 7 months and the contact has shriveled to nothing…. I have backed off completely and now plan to move….

I guess I have not listened to everything and wish I had. I guess for me it’s what I can do now…
Wow that sounds about right!
Hello Ms. Fit,

This is what has happened in my sich, My wife was so selfish while having her affair (she wont call it that)and I knew she was trying to keep her options open by being loving to me and showing me "just enough" for me to keep on going but she slammed me down so many times that I did the 'Get A Life" bit after what I thought was the final fight of our life and it ended up with me going astray to a woman that was the opposite of my wife. The next day my wife starts telling me that after almost a year she realized that I am the one she has always loved. When she asked, I had to tell her "Yes I slept with someone" Now all bets are probably off. I was able to forgive her but she will not be able to forgive me even in light of all she put me through.
By the Way, Fit!

I would like some of your input on figuring out my wife's behavior. follow me over to my thread if you have time.
I copied and emailed a few of your postings to her.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1782993&page=1

Flight, Anyone
Important question about my SS and SD
Haven’t seen you, hope your good! I have a question. My SS has called me many times when my ex goes MIA sometimes till 4:00 am and countless days, I need to address this with her. I don't have a place that I can have him stay at with me... If I say anything to her about this she will think I am trying to "get home for me" I have tried to explain that I am not doing this for me but for them. Any advice as to how I can approach this for my SS? I am worried about him! I was thinking of letting her know that I am concerned about him and in the past she rails me and blows off the truth that is so clear! Anyone please advise…I don't want to threaten her but this is blatant disregard to him over and over....One reason I want to be home was because my SS has asked me to come home and that always made me try harder to be home and as I said she sees it as me getting her back….

This is important….

PD
Paul,

A 13 year old is home alone at 4 in the morning, and you're worried about making your wife mad???
confused crazy mad

If my son (or step-son) called me at 4am, and was alone, I would be there at 4:15, never to leave again. Or, I would call the police and/or social services, and have her investigated for abandonment.

But that's just me. smirk

Gawd, sometimes the gymnastics everyone goes thru around here to NOT piss off their wayward spouses just KILLS me. "DO THE RIGHT THING, IN EVERY SITUATION" should be your guide!!! And this one's not even difficult, is it?

Puppy
I have though about that! I may send her a message and give her chance to GROW UP! But she will see it as a threat! I have to do this carefully and I will stand up for them....! I am so not in a good finacial postion but will do what I can... DO THE RIGHT THING! HAS ALWAYS BEEN MY GAME! She won't have that! catch 22 for me...
What does your financial position have to do with it?

I wouldn't recommend "sending a message" in any way OTHER than by your ACTIONS. Either do it the next time it happens, as I wrote above and without warning, or, go see her in person, look her in the eye and calmly say "If you ever leave our stepson home alone again at 4 in the morning, I will call protective services on you and have you investigated for abandonment."

Anything else will be seen as weakness.

I already did send one! I am fed up.... I will find a way!
I usually have a difficult time with being so hard core with my wayward spouse because I see her as ill, but Mr. Tails is on the mark with this.

YOU NEVER EVER MESS WITH THE KIDS!!!! THEY COME FIRST IN EVERY SITUATION!!

Plus, kids that are messed with end up being crazy spouses for someone else to deal with in the future.

I promise you I am not doing this to them! I have to watch her use them and allow them to control her as well.... It's so messed up! I have always suggested to my W that we don't talk in front of them but she insists to dissregaurd this and do it anyway.... I sent her an e-mail and stood my ground for him, she came back with thats ok but didn't want me at the house when she was there SO I told her I don't want to see her! and I have moved on! I have not done anything like that yet! She didn't respond to that e-mail.... I am not going to be mean but I may have to do more for the kids and that will seem like I am a jerk but OH well I told her do what ever you want to yourself... Just wish I had more resources....
Paul,

Tell SS and SD that if they are ever home alone again past _____ (and fill in a reasonable, age-appropriate time here -- midnight? 1am?) -- that they can ALWAYS call you if they want to, and you will "either talk to them or come over."

Then, when they do contact you, GO OVER THERE and stay the night. When your wife asks you why you're there, tell her "Because SS was scared, and it's inappropriate for him to be home alone until _____"(fill in whatever time she finally traipses in). And if it ever happens again, not only will I come over again, but I will call protective services so fast your wayward little head will spin, and if you think I'm bluffing, you underestimate me -- again."

You don't "suggest" and you don't "send e-mails" when it comes to the security of the children. You DO.

Good lord, man, this is a no-brainer. The only "resources" this requires is BALLZ.

Puppy
Your right about that underestimates me TOTALY! And yes I have told them that they can call me anytime but she has been telling them to not talk to me about certain things they of course think and or thought that meant not at all so he has went around her to talk to me… She also does not see her going out till 4:00 am to be with OM as a problem! I have not come down on her just standing firm on this!
In also trying to keep things respectful as to Mom’s rules I always and will do my best to keep that…. Unfortunately that can also be very hard when she will only communicate a little and things will get confusing for them…. I will contact social services if she does it again I know she may feel threatened by this but I will have to put to the right way and will, She does not know that I know she was out doing this..!!!! I have balls just haven’t been using them…...

She also thinks because they are 12 and 16 they can be on there own!
Actually, Do you have family members to take care of the kid?

I grew up under state care! Never rely on them unless there is a serious emergency.

No there is no one else to do that,
I don't want to use state help at all they can be cluless....Sometimes. I told her I will be helping him if I get late night calls and late afternoon calls. She thinks he's worried about the time she is at work but I told her about the nights she has been gone and thats when he askes me to come over I will be helping him!
well,
here we go... I told her I don't want to see her and I have moved on... Now this is what she has been pushing for.. So right after I explian that I want to leave she locks the house so I can't get my things LOL... So this is forcing me to contact her more! I really want out of this and let her know! So now she is really trying to get to me and has said I can't even come walk my dogs... I have found a place to move but may not be able to move as soon as I would like... Now as I was telling her I am over this and I want to just leave she starts saying we are split up and I verified everthing she was saying. Yes it's over and I just want to leave and locking the door has made me contact you more. Also told SS he can't call me any more... Well I am ready to call in some help at this point. I can go to the court house and see about filing and have already talk to the police because she is literly holding my things and my dog hostage... This is getting nuts... She even said don't use the kids as pawns then does exactly that moments later... I knows If I go to court it's going to get uglyer then it is.. This is so far beyond my understanding that I fear for the kids and her as well... Anyone know what I should do to protect the kids and I?
New devolpment,

I have been dark and I really went dark this time I showed no interest what so ever, I even told her I don't want to see her at all! also I will be with someone else now and gave her back the engagment ring she bought me....

A little over two weeks now and I get an e-mail this morning it reads....



Good morning.

I wanted to apologize for the other day. I changed the locks because you scare me sometimes and I took your emails as threatening. Maybe I misunderstood.

Anyway, I know you’re in a very bad position and I don’t want to hurt you. It makes me very sad when you hurt and I don’t want to add to that pain. You are

Welcome to see the dogs anytime and the kids also, as you already know. I don’t want to fight anymore…


Now I also had a friend of hers that we both know contact me out of the blue yesterday... I thought this was wierd because he was asking about what I am up to... Well I said I am involved with another woman. After she make me leave. Then this morning got the e-mail, coincident I think not... Now my saying another woman well I really don't but have not closed my mind to other woman and if things continue like this I will be with someone else! That is a fact...
Amazing how nice she was for the first time in over 7 months does this seem a little warm to anyone? If she was to stay warm for a while I might try something new...

Input anyone...

BTW the e-mail she reffered to was after my SS called me and asked for help with her, so I did contact her and said if you can't be there I will! for that she changed the locks.... i kept my cool and have always loved my family in the face of many trials inside and out, SHE sould know this by now. I guess the thought that I won't be there this time and i may not be again! That must have scared her more....

Update,

It's been almost a month since that last encounter... I have not been tring to talk to her at all.. she has not initiated any contact, I had to contact her about our dog... or my dog, I have been gearing toward leaving and not giving her any attention and going out of my way to make sure we dont see each other... The reason I had to contact her was because she has had my dog at the house and she has been letting thing go that he needs grooming and some regular vet visits, so I text her just to ask about him... instead of text me back she calls me now and for the first time in months was asking me how I am doing... I was suprized to hear this but also dint return any concern about her, and she was also asking about my dog. I had taken him for 2 weeks so she also missed him... So I had him taken care of and had to drop him at home beause I still dont have a permanent place to live... This was the first time in over a month that she has seen me and was extra nice... She held me again and I was not really warm at all she is starting to act understanding about how things are, being very attentive also... It is creepy to say the least, I was a bit taken but didnt give much... She was also very thankful offered help with small things and I declined... She seems very worn out and sad ]... anyone have a take on this I know she has been thinking about me allot... I can see she is up to something with the extra friendly and engaging me with attention.. Advice anyone I am struggling with trusting her with anything, I know she is hurting and is starting to see her part in this as well...
No replies hhmmmm
ok well I guess you all know I have slipped here and there through this. Maybe I just cant put down in text all of the crazy things that happen and how complex just a basic meeting can be or could be with my W. she has decided to get together with anouter guy! this one at her HS reunion... she is going to have this person move out here from another state, needless to say I was floored. I know I slip sometimes and have been repecful and kind as possible and really nothing has worked! not that I even have a chance to see her much anyway with NC. being kind has done little to nothing, NC also with little results. What ever I slipped on has just added to pushing her away even more. again it is so comlex when I do see her that I guess she really knows how I feel without a word, even when I am putting my best foot forward. Not living at home through this has also taken its toll. She was not afraid to inform me about this latest move. She also admitted she cares about me but not in that way anymore. So far I felt I had done as well as I can for hit after hit from this. I also verified her feelings as well as I slipped on talking about the R and did my best and stopped it quickly as possible. If she really does move this person into the house with the kids, and I dont think the kids even know and if they do I may hear about how they feel about it, so far I can tell that she is not really giving much thought to how they feel about anything! maybe I went too dark! I think I may have, now that she is going this far with this next person, well I have never had to deal with this before. I cant put everything down here in words, her actions when she sees me for a minute or two is still a little confusing but seem to be just being freindly but not close....

OK, If anyone is reading thses please reply. I think maybe you think I,m not listening but I am I have done all of the suggestions here with some slips not alot of them but it has happened a few times.
It has been months of really not doing anything, I know when I was in the R and living at home I was upset about things. problem is it was over the accident I was dealing with not with my W, she was not as supportive I thought. I did tend to talk to much about things like the accident and other issues we had. I told her how beautiful she was offter, amde suggestions about how we could handle things. She said once that she wanted me to know what she wanted without her telling me. I know our SL was suffering a bit because she thought It would hurt me, even when I told her it wouldnt and that part of our lives was ok, problem is I had lost the desire for sex because of the whole mess I was in with the doctors and being stuck in this lawsuit. It was not because I wasnt attracted to her just to much on my mind and she may have felt I was not capable, she had suggested doing things to jump start it and I was up for it but we never made the effort.
I think it had something to do with sex at this point, she jumped in bed with someone within 3 months... and after all the dating that dint work out now she is planning to bring this person from another state from her HS reunion. I know she had have sex with this guy and maybe it's just me but this whole thing is just seems really weird that she has now decided to move someone in after just spending a few days with this person. the few times I saw her before she went to this she was being pretty cold, I was doing what was suggested and not engaging much with her and I wonder now if the meetings we had were a small opening for me to do something. At this point it really dosnt matter I guess. I really have taken another blow here and this was the worse one so far. I would really like to ask if anyone has advice here, I have used all of the advice. I know this if she does move this person out here he really dosnt know what he's walking into with 2 half way grows kids! I know she will and has been really sweet to OP in hopes of getting someone to move in. Also I know she has thought about allot through out this whole mess, even after all the dating. I guess I just like to think of that as a small sign.... Anyone please

Type O
I was tring to say " I know she has thought about me allot through out this mess, after all the failed dating as well...
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