First Thread. Second Thread. Third Thread. Last Thread. New Thread title (paraphrased)-- time to post the lyrics:
You'll Think Of Me
Keith Urban
I woke up early this morning around 4 am,
With the moon shining bright as headlights on the interstate.
I pulled the covers over my head and tried to catch some sleep,
But thoughts of us kept keeping me awake.
Ever since you found yourself in someone else's arms
I've been tryin' my best to get along,
But that's OK
There's nothing left to say but...
Take your records, take your freedom,
Take your memories, I don't need 'em,
Take your space and take your reasons,
But you'll think of me.
And take your cap and leave my sweater
'Cause we have nothing left to weather,
In fact I'll feel a whole lot better,
But you'll think of me, you'll think of me.
I went out driving trying to clear my head
I tried to sweep out all the ruins that my emotions left
I guess I'm feeling just a little tired of this
And all the baggage that seems to still exist
It seems the only blessing I have left to my name
Is not knowing what we could have been
What we should have been;
So...
Take your records, take your freedom,
Take your memories, I don't need 'em,
Take your space and take your reasons,
But you'll think of me.
And take your cap and leave my sweater
'Cause we have nothing left to weather,
In fact I'll feel a whole lot better,
But you'll think of me.
Someday I'm gonna run across your mind
Don't worry, I'll be fine,
I'm gonna be alright.
While you're sleeping with your pride
Wishing I could hold you tight,
I'll be over you -- and on with my life.
So take your records, take your freedom,
Take your memories, I don't need 'em,
And take your cap and leave my sweater,
'Cause we have nothing left to weather,
In fact I'll feel a whole lot better,
But you'll think of me.
So take your records, take your freedom,
Take your memories, I don't need 'em,
Take your space and all your reasons,
But you'll think of me.
And take your cap and leave my sweater,
'Cause we got nothing left to weather,
In fact I'll feel a whole lot better,
But you'll think of me, you'll think of me, yeah.
And you're gonna think of me,
Oh, someday, baby, someday...
I love that song.
(((HUGS))) right back to you nocode.....
Me, too. Great choice. Sounds like Keith has been there, done that with this song, as he does with many of his songs.
Hope you had a somewhat better day today...
Thanks, Lwb, Joie,
Keith definitely has his finger on this type of sitch.
I just got back from a dinner party (Italian pot-luck) with my friends in our DivorceCare group and their children. It was very enjoyable, and very tiring -- lasted a bit longer than my two S's cold handle. We're all zonked.
I need to turn in because of how sleepy I am now. But I will note that W called around her usual time, while I and S7 and S3 we're at the dinner party. Again, I said nothing to W, just gave the phone directly to my S's. I don't feel like talking to her myself right now.
I was able to discreetly relate some of these latest events to my comrades at tonight's get-together.
Also on the drive back I decided to swing by the residence -- W's car was not there, even though it was after 9:30 PM. But I know exactly where she is.
I really thought I would have nothing to report today.
Friday night, after having learned the worst (see my previous thread), I tried one last time to send W an email asking her to reconsider not seeking counseling with me.
Here's the text:
I'm going to try this again.
I set up an appointment with Dr. ________ for 10:00 AM on Friday, February 15. He also had an 8:00 AM opening that day , if that would be better for you. Or I can try another date and time.
I really think it best we go to counseling. Even if (when) our marriage should end in divorce, we both still need to learn to communicate with each other again. I really think that S7 and S3 deserve every possible effort we can make.
I am not asking for a complete reconciliation, nor even for us to be best friends anymore -- we just can't possibly be successful with co-parenting our children unless we are at least civil.
I really don't even care about my own interests in this -- I too can see what this is doing to our sons, and we need to fix this for their sake.
Please, please think of them for a change. I beg you.
--NCB
Some time after midnight, I called the hotel to get W's room, and the voice of a male answered, the OM. I said nothing, let him continue to ask "Hello? Who's there?" and then to finally hang up.
The early the next morning, between 7:00 And 7:30 AM, I called the hotel room again, heard W answer, and then without so much as a word from me handed the phone over to our two S's to greet W as if nothing was wrong -- and in our S's minds there was nothing wrong because they were not in the know about this.
All through yesterday and today, I minimized any words spoken to W. I put on my "Joe Friday" voice ("Just the facts, ma'am") and gave short, to-the-point replies. I noted that W was exceptionally syrupy in her words, especially with our two boys.
When it came time to drop the boys off at the house, I took my departing hugs and good-byes from them in the garage before taking them inside the house. I opened the door, showed S7 and S3 inside, petted our dog, said one last good-bye, and then I was out of there, with as few words with W as I could muster.
This evening, I said goodnight to my S's via phone, and W tried to engage me in some short, trivial exchange about S3's bowel movements today. I gave W a one sentence report of S3's status and then said good-bye.
Then I found W had sent an email earlier -- about 5:30 PM, about 1/2 hour after I had left. She had apparently gotten my email from Friday evening and had responded.
Here's what she wrote:
I told you I can't go with you. It hurts to be around you. I will be going to TEACCH's FREE classes.
I don't understand you putting S7 on the phone Sat am. I stayed downtown after a birthday celebration for one of the physical therapists at work at <Irish pub> so I wouldn't have to drive back so late. I don't expect you to ever believe anything I say, but as long as you don't poison the children against me it will be okay.
I'm trying to be civil.
I'm not the one thrusting fingers into my Mom's face & telling her to get out of your house & yelling and slamming doors in front of the children. You did that.
Thank you,
WAW
These TEACCH classes are for mothers of Autism-Spectrum children (S7 has Asperger's Syndrome, AS), and were the most minimal resource W could have chosen from what was available to us through UNC's program. W chose this one class because it targets mothers and would thus exclude me as a father (a "nice" move on W's part to shut me out.) After all my effort to get S7 into this program, W opts for the most
minimal offering -- I am so very disgusted and disappointed.
Now W is using this as her excuse for not going to C for communication and parenting/couples therapy?!?
As for the big one -- the massive denial -- I am even more incensed, not surprised, but fuming mad. She continues to insult my intelligence! If I still thought this person was worth this torture, I would have told her
I have the evidence to prove her to be the liar she is. As it is now, I just don't care to hear anything from her anymore. I have given her the benefit of any doubt, no matter how great, all of our 17 years together -- well,
now there is no doubt!
I started to send back a one-sentence reply: "You're right -- I don't believe you." and leave it at that. But I just don't care anymore, not now (although, heck, I might totally change my mind tomorrow) -- I am not interested in this adulterous, selfish person who insists on insulting my intelligence, treats me like a fool, denies my heart and soul, spits on my good will, threatens my parenthood of my children, breaks up my family, and then denies her actions and tries to pass all of the blame off on me, treating
me like the criminal.
The sad thing is... I still love the person she was, and whose soul, weak as it now proves to be, I got a glimpse of at one time. I still wish her no ill will, and I want her to be
truly and honestly happy, but it's got to be
without me. Her happiness can no longer be at my expense or that of my S's. She continues to hurt me deeply and I now need to get beyond that. I can't deal with her, and now I don't want to either.
I'm hanging up my DB'ing spurs, and focusing on my own spiritual growth.
It's true when everyone says we'll know when it's time to do that. Don't hang up those spurs completely. Keep the GAL for your own PMA. I'm sure you will.
It makes no sense that she won't do counseling even for your sons.
Joie,
I haven't given up on DB, not entirely. I still believe in its basic principles, but it just isn't working for me right now, not in its entirety. GAL and PMA are a big part of DB/DR, but they are not dependent on DB/DR. GAL and PMA are a big part of surviving D as well -- in fact, they should be a big part of life in general.
I have been re-reading certain books in the Bible this past week, especially the book of Job and the book of Hosea.
I now find that Job's story has a lot of meaning to me personally. While I know something about suffering, I have not been put through even a fraction of the pain Job went through, not by a long shot. So I haven't been able to relate this story entirely to my sitch, since I cannot and do not blame God for what other humans have done to me.
But in re-reading it this weekend, it finally dawned on me the similarities -- Job was suffering and in anguish, and here were three "wise" friends (Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar) trying to offer platitudes and excuses for his suffering. The bottom line is that they assumed that God would only punish those who must be guilty of some great sin.
During the darkest pit of my depression, my holier-than-thou W showed no empathy for my plight and was actually took it personally (due to her poor self-esteem issues.) She felt that there was something wrong and unloving in my character if I was suffering so. She still feels this way. So she felt the need to distance herself from me and my plight, which only has made matters worse for me. She is running away and blaming me for what she's doing. In this W is most like Zophar, who assumed that Job was as guilty as sin because of his suffering, and held out little hope for his friend's redemption.
As for Hosea, I have been struggling with that book since re-reading it last July. My W holds to some pretense about being right with the Lord. And she continues to deny the truth of her current and past behaviors. And yet she is determined to ditch her husband and family for a chance at worldly "love" and sexual "satisfaction". Her "happiness." In that pursuit she has tried to murder my character and borne such hatred towards me that she threatens my ability to parent our two small S's.
The part that cuts me deepest is that she now hates me more than she loves her S's. She will sacrifice the well-being of our S's to be rid of me and to gain her "happiness." D*mn the consequences. (This is straight out of her mother's playbook.)
And so she will not "tolerate" me for the sake of what is best for S7 and S3, because I am now a symbol of her guilt, and that is an impediment to her all-important goal of "happiness." That's why C is out of the question for her if it involves anything with me.
Does that make my W a whore? Does that make her liken unto Gomer, Hosea's adulterous, prostituting wife. I'd say so.
I need to now consider whether it is God's intention that I, like Hosea, continue to love and accept my W despite her continued betrayals. I suppose so, when or if W should want to repent of her ways. But I am not waiting for it. She'll need to come seek me out, if she is able, because I cannot abide this treacherous, unrepentant person she is now.
Hey NoCode - sorry that things are so tough.
What I suggested on the counseling was that you make it very clear it was "helping the kids through D" counseling - not AT ALL making it about you as a "couple" or friends or anything. It may be too late now.. but wanted to clarify that. I think she may have been more open to that than anything regarding repairing your R.
NCB,
Your W is gone for now, you just have to let her go. The "civil" chapter of your lives will take a while to happen (as it did in my sitch), but it will happen. U will reach a point in your sitch that your W will be more pleasant, and will want to interact with you more frequently. Your W is acting the exact same way mine did (when I was still not detached completely).
At the moment, every time your W sees or hears your voice, it upsets her. It is making OM so much more appealing to be with and around. I had the same thing happen to me. I changed all of that. Now, I am more reclusive around W, and find that she is trying to contact me more and more (mind u, she is still on her path for D and selling up etc, as I have not baulked or tried to stop the process).
She rings me almost every day (I have not instigated a call to her in over 6 months, even in regards to DD, as W has been in such constant contact I have not had to do a thing).
She is not spending anywhere near as many late nights out with OM, and more time with DD. I have not tried to force anything on to her, she has realised this herself (in regards to what she was doing to DD). I think this is what has helped, letting W come to the realisation herself, and not me "telling" her.
Long winded post, I know. But if u can just let W go for now (as hard as it may be), I reckon it won't be long until she starts to warm to you again. There is too much history between the two of you for it not to happen (as in my sitch).
All my best mate,
AndyV
he part that cuts me deepest is that she now hates me more than she loves her S's. She will sacrifice the well-being of our S's to be rid of me and to gain her "happiness." D*mn the consequences. (This is straight out of her mother's playbook.)
Its weird you typed this, because just today I realized just how much H wants away from me. So much that he is willing to see his kids less. That says a lot as my H is a very attached parent, very in tune with their needs. If I died today he could pick up where I left and there would hardly be a bump in the road, make sense? This shocked me today thinking "He sooo wants out of our M, so much so he is giving up time with his kids".
nocode, no contact right now is good. If she brings up her lies again, maybe call her on it. I can't believe she is still STILL lying. How does she think you even got the hotel/number? Does she even wonder that? The 'no' to counseling sickens me. I am so sorry.
You know I've thought about that too about them "giving up the kids" to get away from the LBS. It is just unfathomable to me. I can't imagine not trying my best to keep my family intact to be around my kids. I guess that's where the LBS and WAS differ.
Thanks, Nik,
I gather that W is just not interested in anything that would give the appearance that she and I are working together ... on anything .. even if that were to help our children.
Andy, thanks for your insight. I believe you're right. I need to just let her go, move on without her.
I talked to W this morning. I called her mobile phone to speak to the kids, but she said that she had already left the house and I could call the home phone to speak to them. I said okay and good-bye, but before I could get off the line she tried to engage me in a few words.
She asked whether I had gotten her email. I paused and said, "Yes, I did... ... what about it?"
W asked me again what I was trying to prove by putting S7 on the phone with her Saturday morning. I told her she knew exactly what the message was I was sending. She then told me I needed to be less cryptic. I replied that she was being unfaithful.
W then started to try to explain to me yet again her "excuse" for where she was and what she was doing this past weekend. I stopped her and told her I really wasn't interested in her explanations. I knew enough about what really went on, and I was no longer interested in entertaining her lies and deceit. I told her she was continuing to insult my intelligence when I know the truth already. I've already been hurt enough and now she was heaping insult to injury.
She still, even now, keeps trying to cloak her misdeeds in her fog bank. "We're just friends, blah ,blah, blah..." I started to get a little testy with her, and the volume of my voice began to rise. I apologized for that, and then she asked what it was I wanted from her.
I told her I wanted from her, if nothing else, the truth, but I told her that it was something she was simply unwilling to give. I told her she knows that I value honor and honesty and truth and integrity. But she had proven incapable of it.
W then asked what I wanted with it, the truth. I asked her to clarify. She then said, "Are you intending to use this to take the kids away from me?"
I paused and then said, "No. In all honesty, no, I am not. I love S7 and S3, and they both love and need their mother. I would never harm them by taking their mother away from them. And you know that my word is my bond. I honor my promises, my commitments."
"But," I continued, " You have to understand that S7 and S3 also love and need their father too. And I don't have a lot of trust in your words or actions or deeds. Your ability to be trustworthy is very much in question."
W wanted to then turn the focus back onto the meeting with the mediator on Feb 22nd. I told W I had serious reservations about using this particular attorney for mediation, but on the given date we will see then whether this mediator will be acceptable to me. W then tried to assure me that if I brought my terms in to this meeting we could try to work out something agreeable to the both of us. I'm not holding my breath.
There were a lot more words said, mostly R talk, unfortunately. W said again she just cannot stand to talk with me, let alone be around me. She was not interested in counseling for that reason, and she did not want to give me any "false hope."
I told W that I may have had some false hope in the beginning of this crisis, but now I have few illusions, so don't worry about that. I told her at one point that I was done with her, and couldn't bear the pain of the person she had become.
I said a lot of anti-DB things, but I don't care. The odds of my W ever 'warming" to me are extremely remote.
Impressive conversation, Blue. Now she's worried. She has been caught and she knows it. Keep your proof, it is the power that you have needed in this relationship. It's OK to let her know you have proof. It really makes them quake when they realize they are not getting away with anything.
Thanks, Sara.
"Impressive", maybe, to people in their right mind, but my W is dauntless.
I started a reply to W's last email (seen above), but I'm going to hold onto it instead since she is just
not going to hear it in the spirit it is meant:
At the risk you will take the exact opposite tact, I am going to say this to you as someone who honestly and truly still loves you.
You are recklessly chasing worldly passions in pursuit of shallow notions of "happiness" and "love", oblivious to the hurt you bring to all those who truly love you. You don't really know what you need or where to find it.
I can tell you this:
You won't find what you need in OM;
You won't find it in the arms or the bed of any other man.
You won't get it from your mother.
You won't even find it in me.
And you won't find it in your children or your family either.
You won't find what you're looking for in any other mortal being.
You can only find what you truly need in Jesus Christ.
I continue to pray you will allow Him to speak to you again some day.
It would be futile.
Yes, unfortunately, it would. "You can't teach an infidel."
There is, however, some evidence that suggests that periodic little "truth darts" CAN and DO get thru the fog. Using your notes and your spiritual belief, that might be "Honey, do you realize how incredibly sad your foolish decision must make the Lord?"
or,
"If you really want to know if this is right or wrong, you might want to ask yourself -- honestly -- if you have a peace about your boyfriend when you pray about it." (and then walk out)
Thanks, Choc.
I really appreciate your words of wisdom. It was only last night that I came across Paul's message to the Thessalonians where he advises keeping our words short and succinct.
I have taken note of your various "truth darts" in your advice to others as well, and realize I need to be a bit less verbose, especially in dealing with an "infidel" who has little tolerance for one word from me, let alone many.
Brevity is the soul of wit, as they say, and of getting one's point across.
Thanks, and please feel free to offer any advice or comments, any time.
NoCode,
These are the "truth darts" that I used with my wife. Maybe you can steal --- errrr, "ADAPT" one for your use!
TRUTH DARTS:
-I will not hide your affair.
-I will not financially support your affair.
-It's your mess, you clean it up.
-Send her an email with STD statistics, no other comments.
-Secrets kill marriages.
-You are being played.
- Your current behavior is not helping the children.
- "No contact" means "no contact". Working in close quarters with someone who's admitted being attracted to you, and vice-versa, is inappropriate in a HEALTHY marriage. It's absolutely DESTRUCTIVE in one that's on the rocks!
- How will you be able to counsel your daughters one day if they're having problems? To cut and run? To have an affair?
- You are placing your friend before your husband, and your friendship before your marriage.
- Forget ME for a moment; you are not going to like yourself someday if you keep going down this path.
- S14 and S11 need you more than ever.
IF SHE TRIES "R" TALK:
DON'T argue past points with her. Simply state the truth of today.
- She is having an affair.
- It is impossible to analyze issues with the marriage as along as she is having an affair.
- You can't analyze a relationship where one partner is making unilateral decisions to bring a third person into the relationship.
- Betrayal is an intensely painful action for one person to inflict on another.
nocodes,
Love the song.. and she too will regret what she is doing, and it will be too late.
She is a lost soul at this point not even "stand up" enough to admit what she has done.
Protect your heart my friend.. Its precious and she doesn't deserve it!
tal
Thanks, Tal,
Even after all this pain she has inflicted on me, including these most recent instances of her betrayals and her persistence in cloaking herself in treachery, lies and deceit, I am so torn.
Part of me wants to walk away myself. Just gather up the pieces of my heart and give up on her. I told her early on in this crisis I was not going to withdraw again, like I did when I was in the depths of my depression prior to the bomb. But she has shown no compassion towards what I am going through on her behalf. It is as if she sees my very existence as an impediment to her plans and desires. So to recover what is left of my heart I feel the need to let go and move on. If she absolutely refuses to work on our R, let alone our M, then why tilt at windmills?
But there is the other part of me that still loves her, both for the person she was and for being the mother of our children and the wife she promised once. I have been having an extremely difficult time turning that "off". Were it not for the fact that we have between us two small children I love dearly, and this family that we waited so very long to achieve, I would find this so much easier to let go.
I also told her early onward that I have to fight for our M, to which she replied incredulously that she could see no signs of it. Never mind she refuses to see anything positive in me or my actions. What message does it send if I retreat now? That again I cannot follow through and do what I say I will do? Now she again gets to say that I failed our M? Can I really say I have done everything humanly possible to try to save this M?
This is my ambivalence.
NoCode, I know what you are going through; I guess everyone here does. I used to think I would stick it out for a long time and only recently through some sleepless nights and nightmares have I begun to rethink that. I've read the quote here that you know when it's time and I haven't reached that moment yet.
I do find that my H has moments where he seems to be more caring lately and reverts more back to "pre-affair" personality which may not make sense, but he seems to come out of the fog sometimes recently. I don't know if that means anything or not. I guess that is looking for signs of progress that DB/DR talks about? I don't know if you have any progress like that in your R, but haven't read of any in your recent posts. I think without those I would have a hard time DBing for long-term. Karen43
NC,
Only you can decide when you have done everything you can do. In the end you won't have any regrets no matter what the outcome.
How is my friend stuck in the DB paper bag with me?
So, do boys like V Day as much as girls? I often wonder. What do your sons think of it? Do they tolerate it for the candy? lol
hey lwb, I think boys do like it. My S13 (14 next week) wanted to take a rose to a girl at school he likes. Unfortunately we got hit with a major storm yesterday and couldn't get out.
NoCode-
Thank you for the Valentine's Day greetings. Same to you! Have a great day.
SueS
Lwb,
My S's are both young enough that they take to Valentine's very well. It's only later, when they're worried about how they appear to their peers that they shy away from the greater significance of the holiday. (Then we get to the age where we can admit our attraction the opposite gender and its good again -- that is until, our marriages are on the rocks.)
My two boys are thrilled about giving cards to everyone. It's all fun for them.
Sue, you're most welcome.
<journaling>
I picked up my S's last evening, as usual. I stayed friendly, responded to W's queries with brevity, but did not engage any conversation with her myself, as I was gathering up the boys and loading my car to take them with me.
W tried to show me some figures she had been working with, and it represented a slight new line of thinking/feeling she is currently on.
A little background: Eight years ago, almost exactly, on Valentine's Day of 2000, we moved into our house. A couple of months later we found out W was pregnant with S7. As a gift to ourselves and to our child, I decorated the nursery room with an elaborate mural painting, in the style of Trompe-l'oeil. It was a depiction of the Scottish highlands with Scottish terrier puppies running around -- not photorealistic exactly, but more like a living storybook. It took over four months to paint and was a labor of love for me to my wife and new family.
Four years later, W was pregnant with S3, and it was time to prepare another bedroom for S7 to move into to make way for his little brother. So I painted that room with yet another mural -- this time depicting mountains and forests and deserts with a Hot Wheels race-track theme. With S7's racing car bed, the room looked like it was in the middle of a Hot Wheels track about to race into a Loop-the-loop. (FYI, I mimicked the artistic style of the Hot Wheels Highway 35 movies.)
I poured a lot of time, energy and love into creating these works of art. I spent many a long night like Michelangelo or Da Vinci creating these masterpieces for my children' pleasure.
Last summer, when my wife was about to walk out the door and I volunteered to be the one to leave instead, rather than allow her to rip my S's from their home, W had been shocked at my sacrifice. Given her diminished opinion of myself, that I was so very cold and shallow in her jaded view, she thought I would not want to be parted with my works of art -- and assumed I would be intending to stay in the home myself. I told her then two things (1) neither of us could really afford to live in that home on our either of our individual incomes, and (2) that without my family for whom I created these works in the first, they were utterly meaningless to me. If we D, then the house would be sold and the murals would be gone from us. That is the cold, hard reality.
Fast forward to yesterday. W was showing me her recalculations -- and this is why: Apparently she had talked to a real estate agent and they had told her that the murals would have to be painted over in order to be able to make the house sellable.
So W is now trying to figure out some way that I can refinance the home in order to be able to afford to keep it. I looked at her figures, but said very little. W is grasping now. I quietly told her in the end that it was not going to work, that there was nothing we could do. We then dropped the subject so I could continue loading up my car.
I know what's going through W's mind. It is finally dawning on her some of the cost of her much-sought-after D. The house will have to be sold. And in order to be able to do so, those labors of love that are so dear to me and my children will have to be painted over. I knew that already -- W has been in denial apparently.
W is seriously worried how this is going to look to our S's. Only now is she beginning to anticipate the reaction our two small boys are going have upon seeing the blank walls of their rooms. Again, W is more concerned for the guilt she's going to feel for taking away so many things that our S's love than for what this will do to me. She doesn't want to feel the consequences of her decisions, or to appear to be the "bad guy".
Well, sorry, but it's her bed and she can lie in it. If we D then she will have to face our S's, now and in the future -- and I will not insulate her from that, as it will no longer be my duty to do so.
Sin and selfishness have consequences.
NoCode,
Sounds like you are right, she is now realizing the consequences of everything.
It really sucks big time that they have to be painted over. Of course, that is the opinion of the realtor. How do they know they won't be appealing to whoever buys the house?
Let her do the painting over the murals. If I were you I would not lift a paintbrush.
Joie
Another example of "this was more fun before the secret was exposed."
NCB-
I wouldn't paint over them. Put a note in the real estate brochure that the walls will be painted upon closing if the buyer wishes. Maybe they have kids the same age and it would be a selling point.
I wouldn't paint over them. Put a note in the real estate brochure that the walls will be painted upon closing if the buyer wishes. Maybe they have kids the same age and it would be a selling point.
I agree with this.
But nocode is looking at the big picture too. The fact that with their family ripped apart the house will have to be sold, the only 'home' their sons have known. Nocode has known this, but his W is just starting to realize these things. My H is going to do what he can to keep me and the girls in this house because he finally realizes this is home to them. If we moved as a family, that is one thing, but if we moved AND divorced, way too much on the girls.
Nocode, I am thinking of you.
Nocode - wow, sounds like a reality check for your W, that's for sure.
Those murals sound absolutely wonderful!! Whatever happens I hope you take a lot of great pictures of them. Even if it's painful now.. I bet it's something that your kids would enjoy seeing when they get older, memories from when they were little.
Thanks to all.
I have been fretting the fate of my artwork since last summer, and I have long since resigned myself to the fact that once the house is sold, whether we paint over the walls first or not, it does not really matter. Neither I, my W nor my S's will likely ever see those images again in person. Even if we do not paint over the murals before we depart, we will still no longer have any control over what happens from that point forward. For all practical purposes they will be lost to us.
But if it would somehow mean the miraculous restoration of my M and my family I would sacrifice those walls and even burn the whole house down to the ground, in a heartbeat, if that's what it would take. Like I told my W, without my family intact, those walls are just covered with useless images that have lost their meaning. My W's betrayal has turned these paintings into a painful reminder of what once was. A bunch of paint on the wall is no consolation for the loss of my family.
I have lots of photos capturing these works somewhere, now in W's possession likely. I will have to make a point to shoot some more photos on my own some time before we finally say goodbye to them.
wow, the murals sound fantastic. I'd definitely make sure to take some more pics of it, just in case. I'd probably take it a step further and video the kids in front of them, talking about their favorite parts. it would be hard, knowing what might be coming, but I know it would be something to treasure for years to come.
I also agree with NOT painting them over until close, if things do go that route. but putting the offer there isn't a bad idea, if it comes down to it.
sad if it does. they sound incredible.
Thanks, Sally; the video is an excellent idea.
Here's something I thought I'd share with all of you. I am not one to put much stock into dreams, or at least not as a premonition of what is or will be. But in the last year I've had some doozies -- one I had last Spring was quite prophetic. That one involved me searching for my W and going into the home of another man who turned out to be an OM (not the OM in reality, but just some nebulous stranger). I remember the dream led to me confronting this arrogant OM in his kitchen about the whereabouts of my W -- to which this stranger told me she no longer wanted to see me and was now sharing his bed. I approached the guy to forcibly move him out of my way but he stood his ground and extended his extremely long arms out to me to keep me at a distance with the knuckles of his fists. Clearly having the reach on me, the guy defied me, smiling, and said there was nothing I could do but to leave. Now I am not a violent man, no more than any other average person, but curiously in this dream I whipped out a revolver and held it to this OM's temple. This unnerved the guy to back away from me and let me pass. After this point I don't quite recall what happened in the dream, as all I could remember was waking up crying uncontrollably. Eventually I went back to sleep relieved that it had just been a bad dream.
Later that day I told W some of the dream. I did not elaborate but told her it was a nightmare where she was unfaithful to me, that there was this other man and that I woke up crying and terribly shaken. (I mentioned nothing about the disturbingly violent action I took in the dream regarding a handgun.)
In retrospect, I now try to reflect on W's reaction to what I told her. Curiously, I don't recall that W said anything to me at all to assuage my apparent subconscious fears for her fidelity. I got no real sympathy from her as I recall, just the odd silence of W blowing it off as a mere dream. (Curiosity of late prods me to ask W what was really going through her mind when I shared with her how this dream upset me so.)
Last night I had another dream that startled me awake in tears. I had a dream that W came to me out of the blue and told me that she loved me. Upon hearing these words I in this dream broke down crying. W asked me why I was crying, and I told her it was because I had not heard those words from her lips in over a year.
At this point I awoke from the dream with tears in my eyes, sat straight up, and then realized it was only a dream. But this was the opposite of relief. This time I was so wracked with sorrow that my dream was not real that I re-began my tears and cried myself back to sleep. This is the second time I have cried so very hard since last week's solid confirmation of the PA.
Awww NoCode I am so sorry!! I hate those dreams, even when you think you've got it all under control during the day they can sneak up on you.
((NoCodeBlues))
nocodes,
I can sympathize with you... oh I can... Ive had dreams where my H was with the Ow and was telling me he didn't love me blah,blah... and he actually had to wake me up because I was crying in my sleep. It happend twice..
I am sorry... I really am.
The curious thing to me is that the dream last Spring happened pre-bomb, by a couple of months. Other than that one dream, until the bomb I had no conscious fear that my W was anything but utterly faithful to me.
I now believe my subconscious knew there was something seriously wrong -- hence this dream. My darkening depression at the time was another serious indicator to which I was oblivious.
Yesterday's dream, by contrast, was merely bittersweet, but far better than reality. I could hope and pray that it too is a harbinger for what lies ahead, but I know how remote that possibility is.
Thanks for commiserating with me.
NC,
I hate those dreams - the good and the bad - the let down feelings one gets from them really hurts. Even now I dream sometimes about H's A and can wake up crying. It is better to get these feelings out, even though they hurt - much healthier.
Yes, Saffie,
I guess we really do need to work through these feelings, or else they will show up where least expected, like our dreams.
Last weekend, after the recent confirmation of W's lies and treachery, I was angry but calm, in control, almost resigned. I held up well in front of my two little ones. But at one point as I was taking a shower I found myself crying uncontrollably all of a sudden -- like a little child. Not just a few tears, but a deep soul-wrenching cascade of grief, and my shower ended up being one of those long ordeals where I am water-logged at the end. I hadn't had a release like that since the weeks following the bomb.
I guess I find it easier at times to release my sorrow in the shower, where I tend not to be overheard. It just comes naturally to me in those times. Since the bomb, I have also taken a couple of long walks in the rain and did the same thing.
My W makes me out to be an emotional cripple, unfeeling and cold -- only capable of one emotion, anger. There was yet another instance recently where W would remark to me in our conversation that, "that's the most emotion I've seen from you in a long, long time." I can only roll my eyes.
It was always there -- she just never cared to look.
Anyone else pour out their hearts in the privacy of their shower?
At this point I awoke from the dream with tears in my eyes, sat straight up, and then realized it was only a dream. But this was the opposite of relief.
I can say with confidence that my "reconciliation" dreams are so much harder to have than any dream involving H and I fighting, divorcing, or even the kids living with this. Its the cold hard reality, waking up alone, knowing the real truth is that my actual life is the nightmare, and the dream was my escape. Very hard to get out of bed.
Nocode, you had a big shock with the actual confirmation and you were very focused on getting the truth. It takes awhile to sink in. H told me of his A on a Saturday and I didn't cry until Tuesday. Then it was like your shower incident. In fact, I had the girls with me, so I got IN the shower to hide my tears from them.
I can only offer you hugs, and I know, even if just from the Internet, that your wife has not only rewritten history, but has rewritten your heart, your soul. You are far from uncaring and cold, just the opposite. I hope you know this.
I used to have crazy dreams like that quite a bit. Haven't had one in a while but they certainly shake you.
I am also a horrible cold and unfeeling person. I was mean to a waitress once.. Yes... that was a HUGE indicator to H of who I really am.. I just really don't get why they make us out to be these horrible unfeeling people. I guess it makes them feel like they aren't hurting our feelings since we obviously don't have any.
Take Care of yourself..
I just really don't get why they make us out to be these horrible unfeeling people.
They're the ones who had the A. Yet, we're the bad people. Senseless, illogical justifications. Nothing more. Mountains become molehills.
Somewhere inside they know they were hideously wrong in what they did. They have to make you look bad so that they don't look so bad themselves. Self-acceptance of mistakes and wrongdoings is a huge pill that many people can't swallow.
I had the dreams, too. And the shower has been my sanctuary for shedding many tears. Crying is an emotional and spiritual release.
NoCode, you do not sound like an emotional cripple to me. The fact that you've shed so many tears proves that. "A strong man cries; it is the weak man who holds back his tears." (Lakota Elders)
Joie
Thanks, Lwb,
Nocode, you had a big shock with the actual confirmation and you were very focused on getting the truth. It takes awhile to sink in.
I can't quite say that it was "shock", since I
expected the outcome, but it was a blow nonetheless. I
wanted to be proven wrong, that I was being unduly paranoid, and my W was still only
entertaining a full blown affair with OM.
You are far from uncaring and cold, just the opposite. I hope you know this.
You are so sweet, Lwb. I hope you know
that.
Thanks, LO. I do try. You take care of yourself too, okay?
NoCode, you do not sound like an emotional cripple to me. The fact that you've shed so many tears proves that. "A strong man cries; it is the weak man who holds back his tears." (Lakota Elders)
Thanks, Joie, for your kind words and for the quote. I've heard that saying before, but didn't know who to attribute it to.
I think if I learned one thing from my father, it would be my observation of how he handled his emotions. He tried to show far too much stoicism, never crying, such that I think it proved damaging to him on so many levels.
It is said that shedding tears when appropriate is necessary for our mental and physical health, as it helps alleviate stress. I know how relieved I feel at the end of a good cry. Sometimes I realize that I actually
forget to cry because I am usually trying to manage the stress level and keep things from coming apart -- it's a guy thing, I guess, since you ladies are able to let the tears flow so much more readily. And that's probably why you will tend to live longer too.
Aw.
Your sons will learn even more from you. May your marriage be healed.
There are a few more techniques in DR that you can try than GAL/PMA. There are many skills actually.
DBing is "Doing What Works...".....there are lots of communication skills that I think would help in your case.
Changing Anything for one(The Where, the When....in relation to 'talks'...especially about the children)
....
Hi, Nocode! I'm depressed! My H just told me he's moving out next month! I can't stop crying! Does anyone have any advice???? I don't even know why I'm crying exactly- he's kind of a jerk. He thinks I'm pathetic for still caring for him when he's in love with OW. I guess I am.... Karen43
Hi, Karen.
I'm sorry things are so rough right now. I really know how bad it can be when you're depressed. Many here on these boards suggest anti-depressants (AD) should the conditions get too hard to bear. I suffered (suffer) from clinical depression, for about three years now, and am still on a low dose of AD's. They don't take away the depression entirely but they really do help. Have you seen your doctor?
As far as your H moving out, that can be both a blessing and a curse. Yes, it will be very, very hard to see your spouse leave, almost unbearable, and it will make the suggested benefits of DB'ing and GALing so much harder to have an impact on your H (you have to remember this would only be a side benefit anyway.) But on the other hand, with your spouse gone, you will not have to directly endure their hostilities or have his affair shoved in your face all the time. You will actually gain some peace in not having to continually face this alien being and their disquieting behaviors.
Finally, you are not pathetic for continuing to care for and love your spouse even after they have committed one of the most horrible and painful actions imaginable upon us. We take our vows for better or for worse. And we just cannot turn this degree of love, commitment and devotion off so easily. Speaking for myself at least, once I made that commitment to my W 17 years ago and maintained that love all these years I just cannot turn it off so readily.
Hang in there. (((((((hugs)))))))
Hello, all,
I've been scarce of late, especially today, been so tied up with the mediation meeting today and preparing for it. I don't have a lot of time to go into great detail about it right at the moment -- I'm exhausted -- but I will say that I am not happy with my W or the way things are going with her choice in mediators. And if this torture persists like it has, I may be the one who files the minute we're legally able to.
I'll go into it more later.
Hey no code,
hang in there buddy.
Dr Love
Hey nocode, I am so sorry. I hope you are sleeping right now, and at least getting some rest. I know that doesn't always help emotionally though. Hang in there. You will do what is needed to protect you and the boys.
NoCode,
Thinking of you...
Joie
Thanks, Doc, Lwb, Joie, et al.,
So much has happened. Not much good to report, unfortunately. I'm going to give the Cliff Notes version of what went on, but even then I'll need to break it up into pieces.
Thursday Night. I had a convo with W. She just tried to weasel information out of me about what terms I was bringing to the table in our mediation session the next day.
Friday. After pressuring me for months to settle our Separation Agreement (SA) and after arranging to hire this pro-divorce attorney as our mediator, and after offering to give me directions to the L's office, my W was over twenty minutes late to this meeting she arranged. This was my W, the "responsible" and "caring" home health RN who prides herself on her reliability and punctuality. She said she took the wrong exit off the interstate -- she is the one who acts like such an expert when it comes to navigating around the metro area, and yet she got lost?!?
The mediation was itself very taxing and I just don't like where it is leading. The L is trying too hard to give W all the breaks she can get. Giving my w 50% of everything when W has already stated it is not necessary is counterproductive. If my W is so ready to bail out on our M that she is willing to not attempt to get half of my retirement savings, then I say let W go -- but the mediator was actually coaxing W to split everything 50-50. On the other hand the mediator at first assumed that W was going to insist on full custody and I would have to negotiate for visitation rights, however I corrected that notion quickly.
W took a couple of opportunities to get a few underhanded jabs at me. She still likes to subtly deride me as a husband, as a father, as a person in front of others.
The house is going to be a thorny issue -- it's going to take at least one more session to work out that one alone. W (and the mediator) wasted a lot of time trying to figure out some way I could refinance the house, buy out my wife since she had no intention of staying in it herself, and still manage to be able to afford that house note and her child support payments and everything else coming my way. I have previously mentioned the real reason W thinks I should stay in the house -- the murals on our S's bedroom walls. The other reason is that I really think W wants me to be financially chained to that house so she can continue with her plans to uproot my kids and move an hour or more east without fear of me following her.
As they struggled with the numbers they began to realize they didn't have enough solid info. Either way it didn't look good and selling the house appeared to be the only choice. I just looked at my W and told her, "Welcome to where I was eight months ago when you told me you were leaving. I knew then, just as I do now, that (1) we have been house-poor ever since we bought the place, and (2) neither one of us can afford the mortgage alone, even if mortgage rates were to miraculously lower enough. I am not going to go to debtor's prison just to prevent W's conscious from being injured any more with regards to our S's.
The mediator eventually sent us home with "homework" to get a new appraisal for the house. As we were wrapping up, W looked at me, seeing how upset I was despite trying to keep a lid on it, and said she was sorry. To which I replied, disgusted, "I'm sorry too."
I left the place calm but fumingly angry and hurt. If my W's intent is to have me to hate her back, she's doing a very good job.
Saturday Night. W is late again in calling our two S's before they go to bed. We are supposed to have "light out" by 8:30 PM, and W is calling after that time. W tried to chitchat about her reason she's late, that she was working and expecting a call from a doctor, and I made some comment about that being her "story" and I wasn't interested.
Sunday Morning. W called and complained bitterly about my comment to her concerning "her story". To her this was calling her a liar in earshot of our S's. And thus started another R talk. This exchange was counterproductive and only helped to further W's actions against our M. I won't go into all of the details, but because of the degree of detailed information I had about W's infidelity, she was at one point accusing me of invading her privacy with regards to email and the like. I then confessed I knew so much because I had hired a P-I. W then asked me what I hoped to accomplish in hiring a P-I -- was it to wrest full custody from her, or to get the child support reduced? I told her, no; after months of denials and deceit, after being called "paranoid" and "delusional", I had finally had enough and wanted the truth -- I wanted this for my peace of mind.
Sunday afternoon. I had a C session. C learned all that happened in the three weeks since we last talked.
Sunday evening. I called to say goodnight to the kids -- W was sobbing. She again said I was poisoning the children against her. She said that S7 had told her that he was choosing to believe his daddy over his mommy when it came to diverging stories. I told W I was sorry for this pain she's feeling, but I will not lie to my S's for her. I then tried to gently persuade her that the whole reason I believe we needed C together is to prevent just such misunderstandings and to cooperate in parenting our children. Again, W resisted any suggestion we do anything "together" -- so the consequences for her war against me will persist, unfortunately.
She begged me to never say anything to our S's about things concerning "adult matters" -- to which I agreed but she needed to define "adult matters". W replied that anything the P-I would find she would consider to be "adult" and thus off limits to presenting to our kids. I agreed and said that our two small boys knew nothing of that information at all. It was at that point W asked how I could be so cruel as to have my two children call her up in her illicit hotel room the morning after her nightly tryst with the OM. I told her our S's knew nothing of what was going on. They are still innocent of their mother's unfaithful betrayal of their father on that and other weekends. I merely allowed them to talk to their mother as usual, while sending her a message that the jig was up now, that she could no longer pull the wool over my eyes -- all without having to say so much as a word myself.
W then called me "evil" for using my S's to send that message. She called me "evil" for involving our S's in such a way. She said that our MC (now my IC) and the psychologist we had seen both had said we should never involve the children in such a manner. I replied to W that the only person who knew anything was amiss during that call was herself; our two S's were oblivious and, in their minds, had a regular morning time conversation with her -- if she was uncomfortable about that it was solely because of her guilt. Furthermore, as for the C, I told her that I had that very day discussed with him how I had allowed S7 and S3 talk to W by phone that morning after calling her room. He (the C) had considered my move "brilliantly subtle". This shocked my W.
My W is still fully ensconced in her romance with the OM, I have no doubt. W still tries to deny what she can. I asked her to stop with these lies to me -- they only add insult to injury. Many other words were said. Every time W tried to cast our M and our R in a negative light, I told her I was sorry she felt that way, but I don't. Any time she cast a judgment on me or our M I kindly reminded her that as long as there was a third party involved, her judgement was colored. There was one point where W claimed that I neglected her, which she cannot abide, but the OM "worships the ground she walks upon". I retorted, "Sure, I worshipped the ground you walked on too at one time! So?"
I am concluding that W has been trying to beat me into submission these last eight months, so that I will either give in entirely or give up, granting her the power to take herself and my children out of my life and to chase her dream with the OM. Her conscious is so heavy that she wants me entirely out of the way in order to be able to pursue her selfish desires without guilt.
If W ever wakes from this fog she's either going to be so utterly remorseful that she'll be truly suicidal (not just words this time) or she'll be so damaged she won't be able to recover what's left of her mind. But at this rate, I don't think I'll be around to pick up the pieces.
All, I just want to say again how much I appreciate all of you.
((((NoCode))))
More later but a hug, for now.
Blue,
There comes a time when you have to protect yourself from people like yur wife. I think you are well into that time.
Blue,
I am giving you my joke.
That's Punny -- Part One...
1. Energizer Bunny Arrested & Charged with Battery.
2. A pessimist's blood type is always b-negative.
3. Practice safe eating -- always use condiments.
4. A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.
5. Shotgun wedding: A case of wife or death.
6. Marriage is the mourning after the knot before.
7. A hangover is the wrath of grapes.
8. Corduroy pillows are making headlines.
9. Is a book on voyeurism a peeping tome?
10. Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
11. A successful diet is the triumph of mind over platter.
12. Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
13. A gossip is someone with a great sense of rumor.
14. Without geometry, life is pointless.
15. A man's home is his castle, in a manor of speaking.
16. When two egotists meet, it's an I for an I.
Thanks, Nik.
Thanks, Sara. LOL. I needed that.
Hi Nocode-
Not a lot to add today. Just wanted to let you know that I've been keeping up with your sitch and I'm thinking of you & your kids.
(((((HUGS)))))
SueS
Thanks, Sue. (((((Hugs)))) right back at ya'.
I am remarking of late how our WAS' tend to project their own irrational feelings onto us, the LBS. They cast all their negative emotions onto their betrayed spouse. When they use words to describe us that are so hurtful and accusatory, it is amazing how in actuality they truly represent the feelings and actions committed by themselves.
My wife considers me and my behavior selfish, self-centered, controlling, hateful, angry, cold-hearted, toxic, neglectful, uncaring, unfaithful (!!!), holier-than-thou, self-righteous, untrustworthy, deceitful and evil. She has used these words or words like them to characterize how she now sees me. And yet these totally describe W's own actions, especially since she began her EA.
It can only be this insurmountable guilt that causes them to project their own negative feelings onto us.
I often think it's the guilt too, NoCode. I can't think of any other reason why my H would do these weird mean/nasty actions/comments to me sometimes when I am still acting loving/caring to him and our children, looking great, GALing, etc., and he has been off with OW often, will be moving out soon, wants divorce, etc. I have to believe at some point they will realize they have been unfair to us and start to act more like their former selves I would imagine and hope. Nocode, I often think your W sounds a lot like my H, so am always hoping things will go well for you! Karen43
She sure is trying to make herself, or convince herself, that she is doing or has done nothing wrong, but on the other hand, you've been a total screw up! She doesn't want the kids to know, she's still blaming all the M problems on you. She has a rather severe case of justificationitis. Terminal, in fact. Stage 4. It must be the only way she can live with herself. Nothing is her fault, it's your fault. She got busted on the A, and she still wants to be sainted. You summarized all that yesterday, but it amazes me.
But I hope and prayer you can keep the kids out of the middle. You don't want to put them there. I know you've suggested C for that purpose and she's refused. Is there any way to build that into a D agreement?
You sure aren't going to reach her, perhaps one day but I would put all of your strategies into getting the best outcome for your sons right now.
Hi, Joie,
I am getting so weary of this struggle. I need to let her go, and have been trying to do so, but unfortunately our two S's are now caught in this tug-of-war between us. I need to stand my ground, but I cannot allow that to begin to harm my S's. It's such a delicate balancing act. And as W's ire and hostility level increases - for merely the simple fact that I continue to persist/exist -- I panic, make too many mistakes and backslide. I am too slow of a learner in the arts of passive resistance and psychological judo.
I am also too stubborn in adhering to my convictions. W wants me to say nothing about "adult matters" to our S's. That's fine. Except she includes in that anything that relates to our family status in general, which I, however, feel is fair game for sharing with our S's. W really just wants me to say nothing at all... about anything to our S's. The problem is I just can't do that. These are momentous, life-altering events happening to this family that will affect our S's gravely for the rest of their days. I can't ignore what is happening and leave my S's to try to figure out how to cope with this, or worse, go along with W in trying to make this destruction all sound so matter-of-fact, proper and even desirable. I am not going to participate in "selling" this D to my S's.
I still love my W, and I used to cover for her when she would come home late (before the bomb) or call our S's late (post-bomb). I used to talk about how hard Mommy worked or how long her day must have been. I can't do that any longer -- the words just stick in my throat. But for my children's sake, I have to say little or nothing at all, lest I say something contradictory to what W might say to them herself. That's the impression I'm getting from her.
Okay, I've rambled enough for now.
Thanks for listening.
I am also too stubborn in adhering to my convictions. W wants me to say nothing about "adult matters" to our S's. That's fine. Except she includes in that anything that relates to our family status in general, which I, however, feel is fair game for sharing with our S's. W really just wants me to say nothing at all... about anything to our S's. The problem is I just can't do that. These are momentous, life-altering events happening to this family that will affect our S's gravely for the rest of their days. I can't ignore what is happening and leave my S's to try to figure out how to cope with this, or worse, go along with W in trying to make this destruction all sound so matter-of-fact, proper and even desirable. I am not going to participate in "selling" this D to my S's.
NoCode,
I've been following you thread for awhile and just wanted to chime in on this last post. Don't know if you've seen any of my threads (I've not posted nearly as much as some others on here), but we were at the point where you are now. We had been to a mediator I had even gotten to the point where I had my lawyer draw up a filing for D. We were days away from having those papers filed when things took a dramatic turn for the better. Anyhow, the point that I really wanted to bring up was discussing this with the kids. If your W doesn't want you having adult conversations with them, so be it. But they need to know and you should insist that you have this discussion together as a family. SOON! I pulled the quote below from Frank_D's first thread. I thought it was point on and I had a similar discussion with my W when things were at their worst.
Mom and Dad love each other, but Mom isn't in love with Dad any
more and needs to move on to find her spiritual path in life. We'll be staying in
this house and living together as a family but mom and dad will be separate. (C
said to make sure it was clear that W was making the choices, not both of us
together. This is better than the previous story where we took equal
responsibility. She said that I shouldn't have to take any reponsibility except for
not being able to give W the love she apparenlty needs and is seeking. W is
divorcing me, Not mutually.)
Your W is having the A. Your W wants the D. She needs to take that responsibility in the discussion with the kids. I think just the thought of breaking this news to the kids can be a big reality check for the WAS.
i have to agree with HFF but only up to a point. You certainly must have the conversation with the children together, BUT even though it is the W's decision to get the divorce you have to be careful to not bash her in front of the children. They will learn the truth eventually of the entire situation and they will form their own opinions about their mother.
If you both sit down and talk to them about it but there is obvious anger in your voice and you are outright blaming her, they will be very upset. They are going to have very negative feelings about their mother right off the bat. i don't think that is fair to a 3 and 7 year old. They are just too young and it's not fair.
I agree that they eventually need to know that it was mom's choice but they are going to be devasted enough right now and need to know that they can go to either parent for love and support. Mom is not divorcing them she is divorcing dad.
it just needs to be handled delicately for their sake. This conversation is not the conversation to vindicate you no matter how hurt and angry you might be. JMHO as a mom.
Thanks, HFF, M2C,
I appreciate what you are each saying. I will admit that haven't always shouldered my pain well, even in front of my S's. S7 has Asperger's Syndrome (AS), and yet he is still very perceptive of how his father's interactions with his mother can affect him. I am sure he sees me one moment light-hearted and enjoying my time with he and his little brother, then the next moment I have some form of interaction with his mother -- both of our demeanors change. Even if Daddy holds it together, S7 can probably tell how it still gets to me in the most subtle (or not-so-subtle) ways. I am just not the kind of person who is accustomed to faking my emotions -- I can suppress them certainly -- I am good at that (for a while at least)-- but I have great difficulty in disguising or falsifying them. And even the suppression of one's feelings telegraphs so much to others.
Even so, whenever I speak of their mother to my S's, even if I am upset with her behavior, it is always with compassion for her and respect for her love as a mother to them. I always make it perfectly clear that they should always love and respect their mother, that she is a good person at heart who also deserves their honor and respect.
Unfortunately for us both, it is all too obvious that this separation represents a serious rift between us, no matter how much we might try to sugar-coat it. Our S's each understand that when they fight or disagree with each other, that leads to them being separated as well, but that is but a temporary thing. The fact that the separation between their parents is so lasting bespeaks of a serious conflict that is not being repaired. There is not the expected "kiss and make up" that concludes the time-out.
My W uses this to instruct our S's that Daddy's anger and bad behavior is the cause for this rift, and why Mommy can never live with Daddy ever again. This puts me in the position of being the bad guy, and I cannot say I tolerate her spin on this situation well at all. In fact, it upsets me greatly and I tend to go overboard in countering this impression. If I say anything that counters this, however, S7 realizes the discrepancies and he has the natural tendency to want to conclude that one of us is not being entirely candid. And somewhere S7 got the impression that it was I who wanted to separate us (I suspect it was the MIL.) So I have taken the policy of telling our S's that I do not want this separation or the D -- this is their mother's decision -- and that I still love her and want this to work out, but it is not likely right now since the final decision is not in my control.
S7 hears these conflicting points of views and conflicting information and concludes that one must be false. I think for the long term sake of my S's, I have to find someway to attenuate the appearance of this disagreement. I have to detach even more and refrain from sending an opposing message to my children, if my W insists on this. Sadly, I am beginning to feel that I will have to relax my grasp on my place in their lives lest my W rip them apart between us. This is so hard. Our S's need us both -- why can't she see that? I am trying to find a balance, but it is becoming so much more difficult the more my W panics.
I have to work on this, for the sake of my S's, if nothing else.
NoCode, I find it interesting that your S7 has Aspergers. I've always noticed a similarity in the personality of your W and my H (as you describe your W). My S14 and D8 also are autism spectrum diagnosed with PDD-NOS. I've suspected some of my H's problems and our R problems might relate from his having some Asperger issues himself (we were involved in a genetic family study with University of Washington b/c they think Asperger/autism spectrum may be genetic). H has problems communicating, anger, etc. He also doesn't want to talk to the kids much if at all about the separating and divorce. Do you think your wife might also have some Asperger type issues as well or am I way off with that? I apologize if I offend you with that as I don't mean to! Karen
Karen,
No, by no means does that in any way offend me. In fact, I
have considered this myself, and you mentioning this gives me cause to chuckle.
Let me explain: Right after the bomb, my W insisted there was something severely wrong with me psychologically that I could become so depressed and emotionally detached from her, to the point of neglecting her (and her womanly needs). She insisted that
I must be the carrier of any genetic defect that led to S7's AS and SID condition. So I enrolled in the University of North Carolina's TEACCH program (for AS and Autism Spectrum Disorders) to enroll S7 in this state-sponsored program and to get myself screened. My screening proved negative -- nothing in my psychological and emotional makeup that warranted any further testing. (I have since learned that my depression was the core reason for why I withdrew from her and from life, and explained my then emotional blindness as well.)
Now it is my understanding, and I am just a lay person in my studies of AS and HFA, but I believe that the jury is still out on whether there is a definitive genetic link to AS, and there is no widespread consensus on this as yet. I don't ever rule it our myself, as it would make some sense that there might be at least some genetic link to a
predisposition towards having this disorder, but no one really knows just yet. The U of W program (funny, W and I had lived in the Seattle area for over three years, by coincidence) sounds to be focusing on trying to answer this question. (I'd really be interested in hearing more about it.)
Nevertheless, given that there are no conclusions about hereditary links to AS, and my W thinking of herself as a lay expert on the subject, she should know better than to assume one exists between S7 and myself. Still, she insisted and I did what it took to either prove or disprove her assertion (she has since moved on to find other explanations for why we are not meant to be together.)
When I originally began the paperwork to enroll S7 in the TEACCH program, I had started to enroll
both of us parents in the screening process. W thought I was insane and being ridiculous for suggesting she might have AS herself. Her rationale is that she sees herself as a kind and highly empathic person, being a Registered Nurse in fact, that cares for others and has a proper reaction to the emotions of others. No way could
she be the source of S7's AS, or so she assumes.
Again, this is one more thing that appears to be a projection of W's words, feelings and deeds upon me.
Husband (Dr. Love) had a response (right after my screening proved negative for AS) that I still chuckle about, "get your W tested!"
The question is, do
I believe W has AS? No, not really, though it really wouldn't surprise me either. While I might enjoy entertaining the idea as a sweet irony, I don't think it helps our case one way or the other. W will never consent to having herself screened anyway.
As for the current behaviors of my W and your H, I think they're more typical of the WAS than AS. But what do I really know? They now say Autism Spectrum Disorders are far more prevalent in the population than people first realized. Maybe AS-like traits are inherent in all WAS' anyway?
But I am convinced that, at the very least, the WAS has had to have gotten what someone in the forums described as an "empathy bypass procedure."
Karen,
Now it is my understanding, and I am just a lay person in my studies of AS and HFA, but I believe that the jury is still out on whether there is a definitive genetic link to AS, and there is no widespread consensus on this as yet. I don't ever rule it our myself, as it would make some sense that there might be at least some genetic link to a predisposition towards having this disorder, but no one really knows just yet.
They are researching into this area and the research is promising from what I've read. Here's the link to the research study that we were involved in:
http://www.autismconnect.org/news.asp?section=00010001&itemtype=news&id=6076The reason why I think my H has Aspergers is that he has sensory integration issues, doesn't like to be touched, ADHD type issues, he was on Ritalin as a child though never diagnosed with ADHD, believe it or not the researchers told me large head size is common in autism spectrum and H and my children all have extra large head sizes!,(I know that is weird!).
H has a hard time communicating, will leave the room in the middle of a conversation, etc. His mom told me when he was young when he was playing sports something like he was always in his own world or something like that, he would space out, which is how my son was described when he was in school.
Anyway, I know that doesn't cause all of our problems obviously, but I sure think it doesn't help (if we'd been able to communicate better and touching more would have helped us to have a stronger R and prevent the affair maybe although of course who knows?).
BTW, I have always suspected my MIL also has Aspergers, b/c she has a lot of these issues also, with sensory integration, can't stand to be touched, dislikes many people and all children, etc. (she is a lot like my H!) and she is also a registered nurse btw)!!! Karen
Wow, Karen, thanks for the link. Very interesting reading -- I intend to follow-up on UW's research.
S7 has no problems with being touched -- actually he has the opposite problem: he craves strongly pressured contact with others. He loves hugging other people, especially other children. It's now not quite as bad as when he was younger, but he still keeps sneaking hugs out of S3 every chance he gets (S3 gets tired of it at times and pushes S7 away.) When S7 was younger he would approach a stranger, a little girl or some other small child in public and have this urge to hug them out of the blue. It would sometimes alarm some parents and children. Some found it strange but cute.
As for the big-head trait, it certainly runs in my family, especially on my father's side. S7 certainly has a big noggin', just like his dad. S3 who appears to be perfectly neurotypical has an even larger melon for his age than his older brother, for what that's worth. (Unfortunately for my W, our S's somewaht larger than usual craniums caused her untold problems in birthing them. In fact, my W's MLC began in earnest about the time she got herself "repaired" as a result of S3's entry into the world.)
On my W's side of the family, particularly her mother's side, there are also some really ripe candidates for Autism-Spectrum disorder. My MIL is certainly empathy-challenged. I have mentioned that W's cousin has a daughter who suffers from seizures and NLD (Non-verbal Learning Disability). NLD is considered a "kissing cousin" (if you will) to Asperger's. But my W never discusses it.
Your MIL is a nurse too? And might have AS? You don't say! That is very interesting indeed.
Wow, lots of similarities in our sitch's, huh?
Yeah, NoCode, it seems like everytime I am reading one of your posts something will catch my eye that seems like it is similar to my sitch: you mentioned your kids have sensory integration, your W seems to have a similar personality to my H and acts a lot like my H, then the autism spectrum, etc. I have always been pulling for your M to work out well as a result! Karen
<journaling>
Laying low this week. No progress on the W front. W is proceeding with getting the painters inside our house to patch and repair the interior walls. W says to me they won't touch the murals on the children's bedroom walls -- for whatever that's worth. She wants me to use our tax return check to fund the house repairs.
<Rhetorical Questions:> If W wants me to stay in the house and not sell it, then why is she now fully on board with (and being proactive) in getting the house repainted and repaired? Could it be because she wants the appraisal to go very well? Could it be she wants to inflate the equity (and her share of it) so I'll owe her even more to buy her out (she supposes)?
<more journaling> We returned from Sunday service around noon and we pass by the subdivision of our house both coming and going to church. S7 began to get sick and threw up on himself (said he wasn't hungry for lunch, felt a bit too warm, and then up came his breakfast.)
I made a quick detour by the house to get S7 cleaned up (rather than drive an additional 6 miles back to my apartment first.) W was not at home (as expected), but MIL was not there either (not expected). More-so, the newspapers from yesterday morning and this morning were still on the driveway. And once inside it looked like no one had been there in days. This tells me that WAW was spending the night again elsewhere -- no doubt with the OM. The MIL is undoubtedly out of town again, and so W uses that as her chance to lie with the OM.
What a tramp. (I really am beginning to know how Hosea felt.)
I also came across W's cellphone. I snooped -- and, yes, it was wrong, so 2x4's away. It had been wiped of history but it contained a strange entry in the phonebook menu. The number itself was for the "spare" phone W purchased last July for the OM (and placed on our "family plan", if any of you remember), which she continues to flatly deny. The name for this entry was cryptic, four capital letters in the format "MY__" with the last two letters the same as the initials of the OM.
So if OM name was "Sh*t Head" this entry would have been "MYSH".
As in, "My Sh*t Head". How quaint.
W thinks she is so clever.
I thinks it's now the turn of S7's father (me) to go barf.
Hope your son is feeling better.
No 2x4s from me on looking at her phone. I was bad this weekend, too. H's credit card statement came on Friday. I was off so for once I got the mail. I walked by that bill so many times and told myself no, don't open it. But after he got home and didn't even notice it, I did open it. It was 'clean.' Sometimes we just can't help ourselves.
Hope you have a good week.
NoCode, I don't know how our spouses can live with themselves when they are in these affairs. I know I couldn't! I do think they make us out to be the "bad guys" to help justify their awful behavior and help deal with the guilt. Horrible!
I hope your S7 is feeling better also!!! Karen
Thanks, Joie, Karen,
S7 seemed to be better later in the day. I watched him pretty closely, and his appetite returned in force by dinner time. On the latter, W asked if I could feed our 2 S's before bringing them to the house, which I agreed.
I have been ruminating over another development that has been gelling since just before the mediation meeting, the MIL is now planning to move out of the house by the end of this month to go live with her sister (W's aunt) two hours east of here (now that W's aunt is now widowed.)
While I am thrilled at the prospects of my deranged MIL no longer having a regular influence on my two S's lives, at least as far as a day-to-day basis, there are unfortunate consequences to this. W is now putting both of our S's into extended daycare programs. S7 is beginning before-school and after-school care as run by the YMCA today. And S3 is being taken out of our church run preschool program that is only two days per week and being transfered into another preschool that is five days per week. This is all so W can continue to work even more, but it is detracting time away she had formerly spent with our S's.
W refuses to acknowledge the hardship this places on our two S's. She is trying to spin this change as a positive for each of our boys, but I am so disappointed that they are now losing yet more time with another of their parents. It's bad enough that their mother forced their father out of regular daily influence on their lives, now their mother seems to be abandoning them on top of that. And yet she still acts like she has their best interests at heart, while I, by contrast, am still perceived as just a selfish, unthinking ass in her mind.
I have been noting, both from personal observation in person and over the phone, and from several comments made by S7 and by S3 independently, that W and MIL have been having continual arguments with each other. I don't know the real source of this refound animosity between them, but my S's seem to think it is mostly due to differences in how to care for the children.
W and MIL used to butt heads quite frequently until about this time last year, when the two mysteriously became thick as thieves all of a sudden. I would later learn that their nefarious alliance was struck when W suddenly became receptive to listening to MIL's advice about dumping me -- W must have found her OM by then. Silly, naive me thought that W and MIL had worked through their petty differences like adults (at last) and were cooperating for the sake of our S's -- little did I know they were only colluding in getting rid of me.
I knew MIL was merely using W until she could find another gig with her sister. I knew MIL was only tolerating our two little children of the (despised) male variety only as long as she had to. I really hoped she'd turned a new leaf, that she was really interested in helping our family, but my reservations about her proved to not be unfounded.
W, in turn, was using MIL until she could get rid of me. I guess the two of them have come to the conclusion that the other has now outlived their usefulness, and so the pretense to peace between them can now be dispensed with.
All I know is that with each new development in this sitch, my poor S's are ending up with less and less of their parents.
I still cannot trust my W either. Even though she talks about finding a rental property nearby, I strongly suspect she's gearing up to relocate to where the OM lives (1+ hours east of here) just as soon as she can possibly get away with it.
Hi NoCode-
Can we just have a big group hug today. I think we both need it! Anyone else want to join in?
You know, when D3 (almost D4) was about 1 1/2, not long after we moved here, H decided that it would be best for her to stay at home with one of us. Since I've been with my co. for 12 years and have all the vaca./benefits, that one would be him. He would get a part-time job at night & stay home with her. I think he convinced himself that it was best, as a way of justifying not getting a great full-time position. He talked and boasted about how he was a stay-at-home dad & about how much time he spent with her & how strong their bond was. That was okay for us financially, but it put us in a spot where we never saw each other. Now, compared to then, he barely spends time with her at all. Sad.
I know I just rambled and took over your thread, but I know how you feel. It crushes you to see the reaction on your child's face or when they ask about your S. They see it. They're not dumb.
I hope what you suspect about your W moving away isn't true.
Hugs to you my friend!!
Sue
Let me join in on the group hug... It's sad that the children don't come first to them. Sometimes I think that my H feels I put our girls first too much. Sad, isn't it?
Thanks, Sue, Yoyo,
((((Hugs)))) in return. I can't think of anyone else who gives better virtual hugs than you wonderful DB ladies.
My disappointment with my W is complete. The fact is that I took on more and more responsibility in a thankless job so that W could be off during the week to better raise our S's, while I became a weekend Mr. Mom -- and that this resulted in the unfortunate loss of adequate quality time between W and myself over the last seven years of our M, which is the root cause for our estrangement. We sacrificed so much for our family, including the health of our M itself (unwisely), so our children would have the maximum benefit of two loving parents. That was our intent. And yet all that sacrifice is now for naught -- my W has backpedaled away from her side of this covenant, on all accounts.
I cannot believe she can somehow rationalize to herself this insurmountable loss to our children. I cannot believe this is the same woman who I married. I cannot believe this is the same woman I spent long hours talking with while we dated and after we took our vows, discussing how we wanted to raise our children in the best of circumstances. We wanted to try to home-school our children. We wanted to work together to give them a loving home and to at least minimize the need for daycare. We wanted to maximize our influence on our children. We agreed on so much for so many years, and then as the reality check came in, W began to renege in piecemeal fashion on her side of the bargain. No more home-schooling, no more school choice, no more Christian-led education, no more marriage, no more wife, no more father, no more family.
Who is this person?
<Update>
I got back from my DivorceCare group this evening to find that W had sent me an email out of the blue. We haven't sent anything to each other in at least a month. Unfortunately, it was odd and not very positive at all. Here's the text:
Guilt & shame are acid....
Acid is not attractive or restorative, only bitter....
I'm sorry....I never dreamed our marriage could disintegrate....but it did. That disintegration had nothing to do with any 3rd person as you wrongly believe. If our marriage was a garden it succumbed to a drought. I see no hint of green in it. I only see you continuing to pour acid on it. I'm just done with it & migrating to a totally different climate.
I'm so sorry....
I was dumbfounded by what could have possibly illicited this message. Since I talked to her over a week ago about my knowing all about the depths of her infidelity, I have said nothing else, and all our few conversations since then were strictly on the kids and our house. Why now did this spring forth?
I sent a response to merely ask what brought this on all of a sudden (don't expect a reply until tomorrow at the earliest.)
My W is strange enough to read when I was fully in tune with her -- since the bomb, however, she's been exceptionally difficult to understand. She must be melding too much with the OM or something, cause I feel like she just included me in line of conversation with someone else. Is it only now she's realizing that I am really no longer in the dark? Is she cracking up?
Okay, I
know -- quite trying to understand the insane mind of an infidel.
NoCode, I've had that same argument before with my H several times, he insists the OW had nothing to do with our marriage falling apart. I agree with him that the affair may have started b/c our marriage had problems, but going to a MC would have fixed them, while H choosing an affair instead is most likely going to end our marriage.
And who in your relationship is suffering from guilt and shame? Not you, but probably your W, is she were ever to admit it, so she is the one that put the acid in your marriage not you. I guess she is upset b/c you are reminding her of her guilt and shame? That's just a guess; I have a hard time figuring out their minds also!!!! Karen
Wonder what brought that on??? Thinking of you nocode. You don't deserve to be blamed for everything. And you surely do NOT need your boys to be 'poisoned' by your W's view of you.
Hello, Lwb,
W just refuses to see how toxic her own thoughts have become, how that spills out and is noticed by our S's.
Against the DB rules, I sent W another response. I just couldn't sleep last night (if that was her real intent with her email, it worked.) I kept thinking how what W had said was so very much like our Bible reading in church just this past Sunday. So I got up, wrote the following and sent it about 1 AM this morning:
W, you spoke of "drought".
I realize now that I foolishly allowed my "love tank" with you (as described by Dr. Gary Chapman) to become drained a long time ago. And I really wish I could change that, if you would let me. It did not and does not have to be this way.
More importantly though, I also know that your cup has been drained on an even deeper level -- and that you continue to seek desperately for a well with which to refill it.
I still love you, God help me. And I truly do wish the best for you -- I always have and always will. Though you care to believe it or not, I am still the best and truest friend you will ever know. I am far from perfect, that's for sure. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but as your friend I can tell you this:
If you thirst, you will never be truly sated by the waters of this world.
You won't find what you need in the arms or the bed of any other man.
You won't even find it in me (admittedly).
And you won't find it in your children or your family either.
You won't find what you're looking for in any other mortal being.
Only the living water that Jesus Christ offers will ease your thirst, now and forever.
--NCB
I
realize this will likely push W further away. It probably would have been much better to have said nothing at all. But I really feel that
speaking the truth in love is my best option here. W's chief complaint to me has been how I would withdraw ino my "shell" rather than engage her -- she
hates it if she thinks she's being ignored. But then she also says she hates it when I stand up to her, because I am too "opinionated." But then if I don't stand up for myself and just go along with her, she loses respect for me. I can never seem to find the right balance, and it ends up being a no-win situation.
I mean every word I said to her -- and if I am d*mned either way, I guess I would rather err on the side of honesty and truth.
But then here I am making excuses for taking a stance -- maybe I should just quit playing this game of hers altogther. It seems to just get me nowhere.
W's chief complaint to me has been how I would withdraw ino my "shell" rather than engage her -- she hates it if she thinks she's being ignored. But then she also says she hates it when I stand up to her, because I am too "opinionated." But then if I don't stand up for myself and just go along with her, she loses respect for me. I can never seem to find the right balance, and it ends up being a no-win situation.
Hi NoCode-
Wow, did you hit the nail on the head for me. Exactly how I feel too. If I stood up, I was a b*tch and nagging. If I sat back and went along I was boring and respect was lost there too.
I know you feel that your email will push her further away, but I have to say that I've told my H those things too. That no one and nothing will give him happiness & peace until he finds it within himself. There's a part of him (although very small), that is a man who could bring himself to God. He had a lot of issues with his mom and how she handled her beliefs. I had a hard time getting him to finally go to church, but he agreed it was good for us. You are right.
Have a good evening.
Hugs to you!
SueS
Don't regret sending it, you had to say it. She will recieve it in whatever way she recieves it. Thinking of you.
NoCode,
Hit in the eyes with a halogen if I'm missing something but I read the email from your wife a couple times and the one thing that really got my attention is twice she said 'sorry.' Not sure what it means, if anything, sometimes I'm obtuse, but it got my attention.
Joie
Thanks, everyone,
Joie, I am not sure what to make of the two "sorry" statements, to be frank. W has used these words before in a somewhat more pejorative context, which I would take to mean she is sorry for her own guilt more than anything. In this case she appears to be expressing regret at the turn of events in our M, as if she had no hand in it herself.
Checking on you my friend.....how are things?
Hello, Lwb,
I have been lurking around when I can, but haven't had the real gumption to offer any comments or words of support. I've been working too much, and between my employer and my two rambunctious little boys, it is no small wonder I'm still standing.
I haven't any major developments to report on at this time, although I do know one of the places W went last Friday night -- that was the most recent weekend that I know W never returned home at all -- W went to a concert with another person. (OM).
Oh, and W sent back a terse reply to my response as given above
I just hadn't had time to respond....
She sent this late on Tuesday -- with no follow up since.
I'll report more later.
nocode, being busy is a curse and a blessing for me at this time. Sometimes, I don't want to be anywhere. When, I am at home, I want to be out, when I am at work, I want to be home. Can't settle anywhere.
Yuck to the concert. It all hurts, doesn't it? Funny she has time to go to a concert, but not to reply to your email.
Take care, and remember to relax and breathe. You are doing the best you can.
Lwb,
I know the feeling well. Thanks.
<note>
W paid a pretty penny for her and another person (OM) to go see the Blue Man Group on Feb 29th. And she has the audacity to complain to me about our finances, or how tough it is for her now to make ends meet.
<updates> I am long overdue...
This week begins attempts to change our custody schedule.
I kept the boys an extra night this weekend and took them to their school/daycare before heading to work. It was quite difficult today since it was the first school day following the Daylight Savings time change -- had two otherwise very chipper boys reluctant to get moving this AM. But this is the start of rearranging my life to be a more full-time type of parent, a significant change from the arrangement W and I agreed upon years ago before starting this family.
W called yesterday afternoon while I was trying to get S3 to take a nap. I handed the phone to S7 after putting it on speaker-phone. W raised her voice and told S7, somewhat irritatedly, that she wanted to speak to his daddy and that was the reason for her call. I was about to go back and try to get S3 back to bed for his nap, but I then stopped and took the phone back from S7.
W was obviously very irritated with me for handing the phone to S7 and not talking to her first. She asked, "What's with this handing the phone to S7 without making sure there was something I needed to communicate with you about first?"
I refrained from reminding her that this refraining from talking directly to the other parent when they call was her MO long before I adopted it. I myself have had no need to bend her ear as she does mine. I calmly apologized and told her I was unaware she had anything to say to me in this case, and to go ahead and say what she needed to. She complained that there are times when she needs to communicate to me as another parent, and started to launch into another spiel about why this was another reason why we cannot communicate and why we cannot live together. But I insisted she go ahead and tell me what she really wanted to say.
W just wanted to run by me her latest thinking about how to ease into the new parenting schedule, and to also put in her two cents about how she thinks it can best be worked out. It was nothing new from what she had already stated before this week, but I think she just wanted to reiterate her points once again. I was noncommittal but told her, as before, I would think about it.
------------------------------
In our first (and so far only) mediation session, after I stated my desire to seek joint custody and that I wanted at least one more night each week with our S's, W announced she wanted a weekend herself each month to be with the kids. I countered by asking W what she was going to offer to offset me giving up one of my three-day weekends. W looked at me dumb-founded and had to have the mediator explain to her -- it's like W thinks she automatically can make demands of time with the children without my consent and that I have no right to their time. The mediator, to her credit, explained to W that if she wanted some weekends with our S's, she would have to reciprocate by giving me back some time with them during the week.
So the mediator began trying to figure out a complex schedule where W would get the second weekend of each month and I would get additional days during weeks 1 and 3. My understanding at the time was that any additional weekends that happen during the month would be my regular 3-day weekends. I was not entirely thrilled with this arrangement, but in the spirit of compromise I was willing to entertain the idea.
But since then, it has become more and more evident why this custody agreement really needs to be nailed down in writing. W is now claiming the discussion with the mediator called for a plan independent of the month. W thinks she would get every third weekend in general with our S's, such that it would be two weekends with me and one weekend with her regardless of the month. W claims it would make our custody near to "even". I strongly dispute both her recollection of the mediator's plan and her assertion to the "fairness" of her own spin on this.
I expressed a bit of calm consternation with her for trying to rejigger the deal we've been hammering out. W started pouting about how she needs more time with our S's than she was going to be getting. She said with her mother leaving and the boys going into full-time daycare/after-school programs and her taking on more week-day work, she was more freed up for weekends. She said she did not want to be the sole "homework" parent by taking all the weekdays (poor baby), and she would like to be able to be the "fun" parent again by having some weekends with them. She even voiced a desire to have them every other weekend, since her schedule with her work could support it now.
I did not voice my frustration with her, but I was boiling inside. I was thinking the whole time she was complaining about losing out on quality time with our S's that she was the one who wanted this situation in the first place. She's the one who's destroying the family. She's the one who is using her precious free time to be with the OM instead of her children. She's the one who wanted to work more during the week so she can be independent of me. She's the one who's now chasing her mother away, ending her "wonderful" arrangement for "free" daycare. Now she doesn't like it because she's not getting enough one-on-one with our S's because of her chosen schedule changes? These are the consequences of her actions and now she wants me to pay all the costs for it.
I can no longer remain sympathetic for her for what she is doing to her own relationship with her children. I do feel for my S's and what this is doing to them, but if she feels any negative consequences, that's not my concern anymore. In fact, she is starting to really p*ss me off. I am tired of making all the sacrifices to accommodate her selfish behaviors.
I have determined to put my foot down. I am going for 50-50, and will settle for no less. She says she wants every other weekend? Fine. I am going to ask for every other week.
The one thing that still wrenches my heart with W trying to get weekends away from me is that I have no faith that W will make sure our S's get to church every Sunday as I have pledged to do. And even if she does I cannot trust her to take them to the same church, our church, anymore (since she wants to avoid ever seeing me in any such venue) -- and she is the one who complains the loudest about maintaining consistency in our S's lives.
------------------------------
Speaking of church, there's another related issue that has developed that just perturbs me. When we say our prayers at night with our S's we have said the "Prayer for a Child" by Rachel Field. I have it memorized and it goes this this:
Bless this milk and bless this bread.
Bless this soft and waiting bed
Where I presently shall be
Wrapped in sweet security.
Through the darkness, through the night
Let no danger come to fright
My sleep till morning once again
Beckons at the window pane.
Bless the toys whose shapes I know,
The shoes that take me to and fro
Up and down and everywhere.
Bless my little painted chair.
Bless the lamplight, bless the fire,
Bless the hands that never tire
In their loving care of me.
Bless my friends and family.
Bless my Father and my Mother
And keep us close to one another.
Bless other children, far and near,
And keep them safe and free from fear.
So let me sleep and let me wake
In peace and health, for Jesus' sake.
Amen.
Lately, when S3 hears me recite this prayer, he has his little hands together and his head bowed, and now he quietly repeats the last word of every verse. So as I finish each line, he's saying "Bread", "bed", "be", "'rity", "night", "fright", etc. Friday night I noticed that when I got to the end of the line, "Bless my friends and family." S3 said "Amen." He was barely audible on the other words, but he's in the habit of raising the volume of his voice to join in chorus on saying amen after each prayer.
The next night, Saturday, I paused after this point, and yet again S3 tried to conclude the prayer after the same line, as if that was the habit he was now accustomed to. It stung me in realization, but I pressed on with the remainder of the prayer and made my usual goodnight ablutions with the both of them. As I made my exit from their room, I reflected on the significance of this subtle change to our routines. I can only conclude that my W has now adopted the habit of prematurely ending this traditional prayer right before the verses that say:
Bless my Father and my Mother
And keep us close to one another.
Maybe I am reading too much into S3's innocent words and what they portend, but I don't know if I can take much more of this.
nocodes,
I was really hoping for some good news from you when I returned from my vacation.
Im sorry that she is still on the wack job path of "not reality" .
If I were you I wouldn't give in to the wkend thing. 50/50 is fair, and the dedicated father I know you are, you have every right to this. You love them as much as her and you need them also and them you. It amazes me how she thinks she deserves more time with them then you do. just amazing.
I wish I could offer some better advice, but I will say that you are strong, even if you don't feel like you are. She IS the one who caused this, I do believe what comes around goes aroundd
But it doesn't make is any easier for you.
Hang in there my friend.
((hugs))
tal
NoCode, I can relate to the church problem. H and I already discussed this. Actually H sent me an email one day and told me he gets "custody" of our church! which is ironic b/c I am a Sunday School teacher there, and he told me I can no longer attend! But he is good friends with the pastor, closer than I am with him, and is moving physically closer there location wise, so I am agreeing with H on that, and he is supposed to take the kids to church there.
H is hopefully going to see the kids every Sunday and so they will have the comfort and familiarity of their own church and church friends during all these stressful times(maybe you can mention it like that to your W?), but need to work that out with him this week! I hope you can work it out as well! Karen
NC,
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate here this time. I know you love your sons very much and want to see them all the time, but... How about having a weekend to yourself every once in a while? I think it would be good for your GALing. I guess I would look at it like this way...If you have them every weekend, it's like she has a built in baby-sitter to do whatever she wants with the OM. What if you meet someone down the line, wouldn't you like to be able to go on an "adult" dinner date sometimes? I know it's hard to even think about these kind of things now because you want your family to be together so badly. There will come a time when you want to do something with your friends on the weekends.
I hope this doesn't come off as sounding callous and selfish. Children are such a blessing, but sometimes we do need "me" time. You have proven over and over again what a wonderful parent you are.
Thanks, Tal,
The more my W acts this way the more shocked I am when I compare her to herself at an earlier point in our lives.
Karen,
That's a good way to put it. Somehow my W is able to "compartmentalize" the discomfort I may cause to our S's by anything I may say, do or need from the discomfort she causes in their lives. I don't get her anymore.
Yoyo,
Yes, you are absolutely right. I did recognize that having an occasional weekend free for myself would not be bad at all, and that I will indeed need it some day. Some day. And no, in no way are your words callous or selfish. I fully recognize that our children do not need us to neglect ourselves and our needs all the time. They need us to take care of ourselves, for their own sakes if not our own.
It's just that when W wants to take away time from me and my S's without giving back, to balance the scales again for their sake, I am astonished at how callous she has become. Right now they are still quite very young, and they need both of us to be good parents and good models for them. But some day they will be all grown, much sooner than we'll be ready for. There'll be plenty of time later to focus more fully on myself. Right now is a critical, formative time in their lives.
That's why I am going to push back and stand firm for my original goal of 50-50 custody, this time with 7 days on, 7 days off. I am not going to play these games with W anymore.
This still won't be easy, by any stretch, but it should bring things more back into balance for all of us.
Thanks for your kind words.
I pray she hasn't 'altered' the prayer in any way. That is truly frightening (the depths). I pray it was an innocent pause on your son's part.
I love that your W says "See!?? This is why we can't live together, we can't communicate!" when she is one of the worst communicators I have ever 'met'. UGH
Stand strong with your 50/50, no code. Only fair. I think in your position, a set in stone agreement will be a good tool to keep things peaceful with you and W at the moment.
Take care.
Lwb,
I read a devotional this morning that suggests we bring our burdens to God like we would as children, who are not bashful about asking for what they need. It said to listen as a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ and to turn these problems and concerns over to Christ, knowing that "He loves you and is able to help you."
It got me to thinking. What would I most want to ask of God? What thing in my life would I need most for my Lord to take from me and to fix? If I could choose any one thing, above everything else, what would it be that I would want God to take care of?
Would I ask God to repair my marriage? Is that the most important thing to me, or what I need the most? Actually, no -- though that would seem the most logical, that is not the most important thing to me right now.
The most important thing to me right now is my W's soul. The thing I would want the most is for my W to return to God, to find her conscious and to repent of her sins -- even if she still does not want our M, I would rather have her faith and steadfastness in Jesus be restored, for the sake of my S's. My S's deserve the mother she promised to be, the God-fearing, honest and giving soul she once possessed. Even if I can't have her, I want God to have her again.
I think that is what haunts me the most about her betrayal, this avoidance and twisting of her faith.
Nocode,
It's funny when we really think about what we really want. I looked back on my posts yesterday and I found one that was a day I think I hit rock bottom. I went to church and I prayed. Now this is a big thing for me. I am not a church going kind of guy. but...When I got there and started praying. I too did not ask god to "fix my marriage" I prayed for my W to find happyness, I prayed for the OM. ( yes that is right) I prayed for him to find god and to find out what had lead him astray. I prayed for the OM family to save them from the pain I was feeling. I guess when you are standing infront of your "father" you can't lie. you have to tell him what you really want. what would make you happy. Hang in there buddy.
Dr Love
<journal>
I had an email conversation with S3's preschool teacher. I wrote her to thank her and the other teachers for being there and helping S3 to grow and mature so much in the last six months. I expressed my regrets that S3 would no longer be in their care (W is pulling our S out of this Church-led two-day per week preschool and putting him into full-time preschool) and that he would miss her and his new friends there.
S3's teacher wrote me back to say that S3 would be truly missed by all, and offered to give our family's name to the church's prayer group, to pray for us as a family. This was a little bit of a surprise. I wrote her back and thanked her.
I have learned that my W has been talking to S3's teachers. I gather that W has been failing to practice proper discretion -- the same discretion W expects of me -- when talking to others, including the teachers and other caregivers for our two S's. I am gathering the impression that W is giving these people the impression that the "difficulties" between us are of my making. In fact, I suspect W is allowing others, including people very important to teaching and nurturing our S's, to conclude that it is I who is breaking this family up, and even that I am the one who is being unfaithful.
My natural instinct is to confront W about this. But I don't know that it would change anything. In W's current state of mind, she really thinks of herself as the victim. She truly is lost.
Thanks, doc.
God taps you on the shoulder sometimes. Actually, He taps us on the shoulder a lot. We just tend to be too stubborn to hear Him. It's only through tragedy and sorrow that we start to actually listen. As they say, wisdom only comes through sorrow, not happiness.
I am very happy for your graduation to Piecing. You're a great person and you deserve to be able to work this out with your W.
Blessings.
No code,
" In fact, I suspect W is allowing others, including people very important to teaching and nurturing our S's, to conclude that it is I who is breaking this family up, and even that I am the one who is being unfaithful."
Ya know My fisrt W ws the same way, but I didnot take the time to explain anything to anybody I had nothing to hide. (my fisrt W became addicted to cocaine, I had no idia.) she left me with a 3 mo old and a 3 y old D's.
in the end the truth comes out. I NEVER spoke bad about her to my D's I just told them that she had "problems".
now at 25 and 22 they want nothing to do with my X. they know what I went thruogh without me saying a word..
I really need to go to bed
talk to ya later
DrLove
Thanks for sharing that, Doc.
That is why I continue to pray for W.
I have my calendar app set up to automatically send me periodic updates on my (forced) celibacy, at each 100 day milestone.
Saturday I got the email with the subject line "300 Days" with no text in the body. I forwarded this to W, mostly out of habit. The previous ones yielded no positive responses.
This morning, four days later, W responded with the following:
"Do you have some point you are trying to make or are you just harassing me?"
I have a mind to ignore this entirely; the other part of me wants to ask her, "On what grounds would you consider this 'harassment'?" (Another part of me wants to say, "It merely represents how long I have been missing you.")
Sigh. It's simple. Her conscious is not clean.
I won't be sharing anything with her again.
You remind W of this? I can see why she got defensive, but its her fault, her guilt, her issues. No more sharing with her.
If anything, I would respond with the "missing you" comment, or nothing at all.
300 days. nocode, its just not fair. And I know for you (as well as me, and probably the rest of us), its not just the physical part of sex we miss, its everything that goes along with it as well-the closeness, the intimacy, the secret stuff...everything. HUGS
nocodes,
Im sorry she is such a moron.. she truly can't see right in front of her.
yes, agreement with LWB, no more sharing.. she is in complete selfish mode and she will twist anything you send to her right now.
((((hugs)))
I agree also. I was getting into email fights with my H. Now I just send him email only when I have info I need to give him re: the kids (since we don't see each other much with our different schedules) and I do try to make that friendly & joky always, so it would be virtually impossible for H to twist into something else (although your W might try I guess!). Karen
Yes, thanks, Lwb, Tal, Karen,
I realize it's my own darn fault -- for acting "as if" my W would see this like a normal person would.
Hey Nocode,
I know how you feel. 300 + for me and it is like LWB said it't not just S. it's just not being close that hurts..
Hang in there I made some stupid remarks along the same line before. I think to our wives it just reminds them that they are not fufiling a need.
H
(((((NCB)))))
Your wife is missing out!
Uuuuggggh.
<journaling>
I had an ugly interchange with W this moning.
It started out cordial enough.
W called to ask about whether I had applied for a refinancing loan on the house. I had not as I did not see the point. W tried to argue that I could see about getting it refinanced from a 20-year fixed APR to a 30-year fixed and be able to pay off our outstanding debt. I told her I had already considered it and saw that neither of us could handle the monthly note on our own.
She sounded a bit disappointed but she acted like she understood -- she said if I wasn't interested, then I wasn't interested. I replied I was interested, but I know it is just not possible. I then said that I took her inquiry to mean that her own application for refinancing did not pan out. W said the monthly payment would have been too high for her to handle on her salary, but she did not see why I couldn't on my salary. I replied that I was not interested in continuing to break my back for a house we had a difficult time paying for on two people's salaries, let alone one.
W stated that we would then have to continue to get the house ready for sale, and that we would need to talk to the mediator about how to split the take. W asked whether she could go ahead and schedule another mediation session. I said to check with me before finalizing a date for the mediation session.
W then began to talk to me about our S's schedules and the parenting schedule that is evolving between us. She began to dictate to me how she saw it panning out, expecting me to either agree or disagree. I listened to her calmly, and at the end I let her know what I had been thinking.
I told her, "Even though I stated my desire to have more days during the week to spend with our S's, you keep countering with taking away time from us on the weekends. I have been thinking about your latest statements about desiring to have every other weekend now. I think this is going in the wrong direction. Instead I am making known my demand (again) for 50-50 custody. I want joint legal and physical custody. If you want every other weekend, I want to have every other week. 7 days on, 7 days off."
W seemed taken back, and she said, "How would that work?"
Me: "I would get them 7 days, and then you would get then 7 days. Rinse and repeat. We would each have them a week at a time."
W: "I don't think that is going to work. It is customary for you to have every other weekend."
Me: "Customary, yes. But old fashioned, don't you think?"
W: "I don't care about old fashioned or new fashioned. I don't think a judge would support what you're asking."
Me:"It's not up to a judge... unless you want to press it that far."
W: "I don't agree with what you're asking for."
Me:"Why? I am trying to remain a positive fatherly influence on our S's lives."
W: "I am trying to minimize the time you have with them."
Me:"On what grounds?!?"
W: "A judge would say that children are better off with their mother. I think all you're interested in is increasing your time with them just to decrease your child support payment."
Me: "Huh? That's not true. The fact is, I am trying to increase my time with them because of you -- to minimize their contact with you." <I now realize I was being a little petty and vindictive here in this response.>
W: "What?! I am not the one who neglects them and ignores them."
Me: "That was the past, when I was depressed and needed help."
W: "You still do neglect them. You leave them in front of the TV and ignore them while you do your work on the computer."
Me: "No, I do not. That is not true -- how would you know? Your're not there. No, you're just projecting your own hurt onto the relationship between me and my S's."
W: "You are cruel and neglectful. You don't give them the attention they need..."
Me: "Speak for yourself."
W: "...you beat me down for 16 years, the whole time we've been married. You never thought anything good of me, always looked down on me. That's why I cannot ever be with you. That's why I have had to get away from you."
Me: " That's not true. You're again projecting your own insecurities onto me..."
W: "That's your opinion! You're not God! You don't know everything..."
Me: "No, I'm not. Neither are you."
W: "Of course not! I am not the one who is standing in judgment of the other, acting like you know everything."
Me: "No? It sure sounds like you've prejudged me, having written me off entirely."
The conversation devolved even further after that point. W began ranting about our R and how terrible I was for so many years. And how I am a terrible father for neglecting my family. She even accused me of being responsible for my depression, that it was no excuse and was my own fault.
I just couldn't bring myself to allowing her accusations go unchallenged. I just don't know how to DB and allow her at the same time to cut me down, to show such utter contempt and disrespect for me.
I caught myself and tried to bring levity to the situation. I made a sincere apology for my faults and failures and for neglecting her in our M, even though that really never meant I did not love her and the kids. I was lost myself and am trying to find my way back, but it was so difficult in the face of all this hostility from the one person you swore to love the most, above all others.
And then I realized she had already hung up on me. She must have vented her rage and, before I could respond completely, she had hung up, missing my apology and appeal to a gentler exchange.
Sadly, I think that is a metaphor for our entire R. She gets to vent her anger at me but she then runs away when I try to give her my own feedback. (And then she has the audacity to say I never talk to her -- and then calls that "neglect".)
Uuuuggggh.
<journaling>
And then I realized she had already hung up on me. She must have vented her rage and, before I could respond completely, she had hung up, missing my apology and appeal to a gentler exchange.
OK, that's why I think my H and your W are similar, they both sometimes act like they are 10 years old! My H does that hanging up thing in the middle of an argument or even just a regular t/c discussion with me.
What is that about??? Karen
when she tells you what a judge will say, say "Fine, let's let a judge decide."
nocodes,
((((hugs))))... so sorry that she is treating this way. Its her loss, she is very clouded in her judgement and what is right at this point.
You have the same rights as her when it comes to your children, and let me tell you knowone is perfect when you are trying to raise them. Everyone has had their moments. and Im sure she's had plenty.
Stick to your guns, I'll be thinking of you.
tal
Thanks, everyone. I appreciate all of you and your kind input very much.
I've said it before -- I am my own worst enemy in this. I just don't know how to keep my mouth shut, or how to otherwise keep W from dragging me into her drama.
I guess I need to get to the point where I am longer attached to her even subconsciously, to give her up on every level. Right now the only thing that drags me back in is trying to be civil with her regarding our children. She acts almost "normal" at times but then she turns on me in a heartbeat.
She acts like the thing that is keeping us apart is solely in her hands -- that she cannot trust me to make her "happy".
Trust. That's a funny one. The reality is that I am now struggling to trust her; if she were to suddenly announce she's reconsidered and now wanted to rebuild our M, it will take a lot of healing between us before I will begin to ever trust her again.
I think she realizes how far afield she's strayed, that she senses the damage between us might now be too great to repair. And she doesn't have the patience, the will or the courage to try to repair things, to take that risk. She has too many insecurities and she wants to simply cut her losses rather than risk any of her fragile self-esteem in what I believe to be a worthy effort.
If that's how she really feels, then I think maybe its time I just walk it off, call it quits myself. I can tilt at windmills with the best of them, but there comes a point where it's more folly than courage.
I think she realizes how far afield she's strayed, that she senses the damage between us might now be too great to repair. And she doesn't have the patience, the will or the courage to try to repair things, to take that risk. She has too many insecurities and she wants to simply cut her losses rather than risk any of her fragile self-esteem in what I believe to be a worthy effort.
Wow, nocode, change 'she' to 'he', and voila! My H....
It looks easier to run, than to stand and fix.
HUGS!!!
I don't feel like I will ever get complete detachment from H, at least it feels like that now.
Hey ncb,
just playing catch up. I think the 300 email sounds like persuing, usually not good.
After catching up all i can suggest is think alien. Are you sure she doesnt have antennas?
thinking of you
light switch
How are you doing Mr. Nocode?
Hi, Lwb, LS,
I have been scarce these last few days. This weekend was a bit tough -- the first time I haven't had custody of my S's for an entire weekend since the separation began 8 months ago. While I have traditionally been accustomed to spending time alone much of my adult life, I am no longer used to it. Unlike some people, I am not a social butterfly who feels all out of sorts when not around others -- in fact I tend to take great advantage of my solitude, or at least I used to. Unfortunately not having to give the care to my boys like I have grown accustomed to has had me at a disadvantage -- I do miss them so.
It did not help that whenever I called them, my two S's were basically unresponsive. We have established the tradition that when they are in the care of one parent, the other parent will call and talk to them by phone every day, once in the morning (before the start of the day) and once in the evening (just before bed time). Well every time I called them this weekend, they were always distracted by something. W filled their weekend with activities and kept them up much later than usual -- even last night, which was a "school night". S7 has a hard enough time focusing on a conversation when there are a minimum of possible distractions. W has complained to me bitterly whenever I had left a children's show on while she tries to talk over the phone to them. So I have taken great pains to ensure the best possible setting for their conversations when she calls. This weekend, W showed no such sensitivity herself.
And apparently W is earnestly trying to win back her place as the "fun" parent (her words) by taking the two of them to movies and to Bullwinkle's (a place like Chucky Cheese's). I am not really threatened, but I am sure W is thinking she is having great success in showing me up in my children's minds. I guess she has fully bought into her mother's thinking that fathers (or husbands) are pretty much optional.
One good thing that happened is that W did take our S's to church on Sunday. I had a bit of fear that W's guilt would have fabricated some excuse for her not taking them, just as her guilt has led her to so many other harmful and hurtful behaviors. But she did take them, even though she pulled that same trick again of relocating to another part of the sanctuary once she took S7 to children's church, so as to not sit anywhere near me. I was expecting that and so I wasn't really bothered by it. I was more concerned that she not miss the reading from the Bible for Palm Sunday, where the betrayal by Judas Iscariot was described. There are so many similarities between Judas and the WAS.
Friday night, I got together with a couple of my Divorce Care friends at a coffee shop. It was a good chance for me to get out and socialize with other adults -- more GALing. We had a long conversation (3 and a half hours) mostly about legal matters, and about how these WAS are treating us in such an awful, heartless manner. I am astonished how exhausting both financially and emotionally these legal proceedings can be -- and I have barely started out. There's potentially a lot of rough, rough road ahead for me (and for W too). If W persists, it won't be pretty.
Oh, Happy St. Patrick's Day, everyone.
Oh nocode, we are different sexes but so much alike. It will be very hard for me to be away from my kids when it happens. I have focused so much on being a good, solid, consistent parent. Have even embraced it as a major role for my life. I wander like a crazy person around the house even if they are gone for a few hours. I just don't know what to do with myself. Getting out (like you did Friday) is about the only cure.
I sooo know what you mean about the distracted calls. I get frustrated when H doesn't 'guide' the calls a bit. Sometimes, he'll get in the shower while they are talking to me. Uh-uh, mister. Now he is so much better and I am respectful of him when he calls too. Nothing is worse than missing your kids and getting garbled and distracted communication.
Glad she got them to church. Let her be the "Disney Parent". Your kids gain so much more in the hours you have spent quietly in your apartment doing 'nothing'.
LWB,
Please check out my thread
Thanks
Dr Love
Lwb,
I was hoping to be the for-real Disney parent later this year. But if W insists on making things hot for us legally, that is going to be impossible. The L fees are going to wipe us both out for a long time to come.
-----
While I have been advised not to in the past, and I keep talking myself out of it, I keep coming back around to deciding whether to contact the W of the OM or leave it alone. It is the need for more information that is driving me.
I am certain she (OM's W) knows already that the SOB is cheating on her with my W, and that's why he was forced to move out back in July, just a few weeks after I did. I also know from the PI that he no longer resides in his marital home and hasn't since that time.
I have been given multiple warnings over the past that making contact could very well backfire on me and force the end of my M. But I am getting to the point where I am realizing that all the DB'ing the world is not going to save my M anyway. My W is unerringly steering us towards D. In fact, as time progresses, that becomes more and more solidified in her mind -- nothing I can say or do will have any effect on her stubborn, willful behavior.
So I am concluding that contacting the other W won't cause any more harm than is already happening. W is still on the slow and steady path to rub me out of her life and that of our S's. W is still extremely hostile towards me. She still sees me as her enemy and she resists any notion that we should get along. W is already on a warfare footing, hot or cold it doesn't matter.
The possible benefit is that I might be able to piece more of the picture together. I feel there is still quite a lot I don't know, especially about the OM. Granted, it will be tainted information coming from the OM's W, but I can take that into consideration.
The worst that could happen, as far as I can imagine, is that she (OM's W) refuses to talk to me. I see that as no harm, no foul. Or, it could precipitate the pushing of W and OM closer, but there's nothing preventing that now. It's happening now -- W is decidedly detached from me and our R already.
W's running the clock out, waiting with baited breath for the first legal moment she can file for D. I keep praying something will change the course of our impending dissolution, that God will work his miracle in W's heart. But I have to realize that God cannot/will not intervene in that manner unless W lets Him. There's that darn free-will thing getting in the way again.
The only thing that holds me back is that I had asked God to take this burden from me -- I gave this over to Jesus to handle. If I take matters in my own hand in this manner, would that be a sore demonstration of a lack of faith on my part? I remember the lesson of how much eventual harm took place (even until this very day) because Sara, Abram's wife, took matters in her own hands and sought out the servant girl to provide her husband with an heir. If Sara had but only waited on the Lord to fulfill His promise to her, so much misery could have been avoided.
I think in my case that I need to stand fast in my faith in God, but realize that where it comes to the actions and wills of human beings, God defers to His decision to grant us free will, for better or for worse. It's in our hands. In this case, God can try what he can, but he will not violate our free will. This means that on the subject of W's heart, it is entirely in her own hands. God won't intervene unless W allows Him in.
So, I still keep periodically debating myself as to whether I should take actions that might display a lack of faith in my lord and savior. Or just be patient for a miracle.
(I will say this -- no matter what, if we end in D anyway, I will have no holds on me to not pursue what confrontational avenue I deem prudent. I will let everyone in her family and all of her friends know the truth of what really has been happening. I will hide her sins no longer after that.)
I have mixed feelings about contacting the W. It sounds like she already knows about the affair from what you say, so what is your motivation for doing so? I don't know that info about the OM will help you in your sitch always? I do know that the OW in my case is quite different than me: I'm a sahm and 100% committed to my kids (probably had too much focus on my kids and not enough on my H in the past), and she is a workaholic lawyer and doesn't spend too much time with her kids. I bet in many cases, the OP are very different, the grass is always greener, etc. The knowledge doesn't really change me at all; if H wants a workaholic not interested in their kids, that is something I am not interested in turning myself into; I do wonder if he will eventually get tired of that. If that's what he wants then I am not the woman for him obviously.
I pray every night as well. I feel that standard DBing fits in well with letting God do the major work, but I feel comfortable that GAL and the other DB typical techniques are compatible with my daily prayer.
Have you tried praying about your question about contacting OW as well and seeing if you are provided an answer? It usually does help me to pray about things that I am worried/thinking about like that. Karen
nocode, did you get to see your boys on Easter? How are things?
Hello, Lwb, Karen, all,
I apologize for not following up with everyone. I've been so darn busy with everything (including trying to salvage my job. Long story.)
I had a great Easter weekend with my S's. Went to an Easter egg hunt with my two young-'uns at a neighbor's (of my house, not the apartment). W showed up for Easter service at church.
The best thing about W showing up on a crowded Easter Sunday? It was too crowded for her to sit anywhere else than next to me. The worst thing about W showing up on a crowded Easter Sunday? It was too crowded for her to sit anywhere else than next to me.
I've been doing more lurking than commenting. I'll try to write everyone when I get a chance. Right now I've got to get myself to bed.
Karen, yes, I pray every night and several times a day. And I have asked the Lord to grant me just enough wisdom to get through this mess -- including whether I should take certain steps or not. I know I have to turn things over to Him, but I also know He does not expect us to be totally passive either. God expects us to take the appropriate actions ourselves. It's often just a little tough figuring that out -- I am continually asking myself whether what I am contemplating is really the actions He wants me to take, or am I being willful and posing my own baser desires as His own?
The best thing about W showing up on a crowded Easter Sunday? It was too crowded for her to sit anywhere else than next to me. The worst thing about W showing up on a crowded Easter Sunday? It was too crowded for her to sit anywhere else than next to me.
I hope you were able to focus on the sermon!
Ok no codes, I'm glad you found some humor in all of this... you made me laugh out loud!
Only time will tell what all of our fates will be, but I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason.
thinking of you~
Only time will tell what all of our fates will be, but I firmly believe that everything happens for a reason.
thinking of you~
I agree with this tal! I think all of us here will eventually wind up with healthier, happier marriages with our WAS or if not, then wind up in a healthier, happier marriage with someone else! Either way, I know I will be OK and you will too!
Karen