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Posted By: lostlove feeling lost - 01/11/06 08:51 PM
last thread

I really am at a loss...

I don't know how I feel about h anymore...

I don't know how h feels about me anymore...

I don't know if it's worth sticking it out for the sake of the kids if in fact that's what we are doing...

yesterday while out doing errands with my adorable dd who's 4..we came across a very young couple walking hand in hand...dd who's very affectionate questioned why that mom and dad (what she calls all grown ups) were holding hands like that. Is that sad or what? she's never seen her mom and dad holding hands or showing affection for eachother...she's got a boy in her class who she says she's going to marry...she doesn't say that when they grow up and get married she's going to hug him and kiss him she says when she grows up she's going to do his laundry. Is this the message I want to send my kids? is this the example of marriage I want them to have?

ugh!

LL
Posted By: hopefloats7 Re: feeling lost - 01/11/06 10:35 PM
lostlove,

I'm very sorry for the difficult time you are having. I don't have children, but hopefully some of the people here that do can post some better advice on how to deal with this situation and kids involved.

What you are doing is showing your child what true love is, what patience, is, what commitment is. You are a fine example of a wife and mother. Don't put yourself down for DB'ing. You're standing for what you believe in and that's a beautiful lesson for your child.

Hugs.
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/11/06 11:56 PM
thanks for the kind words hope...

but...

am I really standing up for what I believe if I stay in a m that is not what I believe m should be?

am I standing up for what I believe if I allow my children to grow up in a home with parents who are little more than roomates?

LL
Posted By: StrongNSassy Re: feeling lost - 01/12/06 12:22 AM
Quote:

am I really standing up for what I believe if I stay in a m that is not what I believe m should be?

am I standing up for what I believe if I allow my children to grow up in a home with parents who are little more than roomates?




That is a call honey that only you can make...I've been exactly where you are now...tried and tried and I gave up...while I can't say what is best for you...blondie and I have never looked back.

We may think we know what is best for our children, in trying to keep the family unit together...but if it's not a family well...what do you have to work with? What type of example are you setting for your children, remember history often does repeat history...is this current sitch acceptable behaviour to show them life/love as it should be? All questions I had to ask myself. I spoke with numerous Christian counselors before making my decision and trust me I did try. Can you look back in 10yrs and say what if? I know looking back at where I was, never would I go back there...it jaded me a bit with my R with Dave...can't tell you how many times I heard "I'm not Robert..." but LOL...look who ended up just like Robert...so you think I'm just a wee bit jaded more now...you betcha!!!
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/19/06 04:53 AM
things are...well...what they are...no better, no worse...still confused...is this it? is this what I fought for...hung in there for...went through hell for...why did I want him back and why can't I seem to change anything.

LL
Posted By: Heart2Heart Re: feeling lost - 01/19/06 04:28 PM
I'm sorry you're still feeling this way, LL - really I am. I don't know what to say anymore. From this side it honestly looks like you're just sitting there saying "I've done all the changing and experiments I'm gonna do, and he's not changing." And "I hate this, but I'm NOT ready to do anything different". It was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

I've asked you several times to tell us about what you would have to "know" or "see" to know that you were ready to do something different? You say, "I'll know".

Sweetie, of course nothing is different! When he started doing something different, like coming home to dinner, you didn't appreciate it - you said it broke the routine you had with the kids.

I am not saying that what you want is wrong. I just think that you can get what you want in small increments, small changes - BUT you have to be willing to do something, something different. It will never change by sitting around and saying "it's not changing".

I know you're tired and frustrated - but it does very much look like it's YOU that isn't willing to do any changing NOW (I am NOT talking about all the things you did before). What would it take for you to move in any direction - forward, backwards, sideways - whatever. What do you need to have happen for you to be willing to take a small start somewhere?

Hugs,
-H2H
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/20/06 07:08 AM
Hey H2H,

I'm glad you're still stoping in from time to time...

As far as me trying something different...I am currently trying something different and that's to just go with the flow...to do my best to be happy despite the fact that my needs arent' being met.

But I can only take so much...

it had been 4 months since my h made and advance at me...last week he wathced tv with me...and when we went up to bed he say's "are you asleep" (uh? we just got into bed and you know it takes a while for me to fall asleep) "No?"..."wanna play?"...(WTF?)...."not really"..."maybe you need some coaxing?"..(WTF? some coaxing would have been for you to try to kiss me 3 hours ago not wait for us to get in bed and then ask me if I wanna play)..."you do realize that it's been 4 months since you've been interested in me? it's kinda hard for me to go from nothing to something" "well if that's how you feel" "I don't think you understand...I can't deal with the inconsistancy...I'd rather have nothing than have it once ever couple of months out of no where" "OK, well if that's how you feel today...there's always tommorrow"

(HUH?)

(do you hear me?)


"I don't want to fight with you but this has always been a problem...and I'm starting to not think it's a problem with you...it's a problem with US if we don't have an emotional connection how can I expect there to be a physical connection?"

"OK, well I have to move over here...I'm not moving away from you I just need to be comfortable to sleep."

(HUH?)

That was a week ago...wanna bet we go another 4 months before he suddenly gets horny outa left field and I'm supposed to just say...Oh, OK You're interested now let me get into it...oh wait I'm used to being alone for this stuff..how do I do this with an active participant?

go ahead and shoot me down again...tell me that when I get what I want I'm not happy...it's not enough...now think about it...I've been trying to deal with the sex issue for years...I can play along and think...yeah! this is great again only to discover it's not going to happen again for a month at best or I can be realistic and say...I'm not falling into this trap again...don't give me what I'll want more of if you're then going to deny me it...I'd rather not have it.

LL
Posted By: Heart2Heart Re: feeling lost - 01/20/06 12:46 PM
Hi LL,
Yes, I'm still around, but I am away on business until the end of the month, so I have less time here on the BB.

Well,you're right that I would say that when you get what you want you reject it . . . I will admit that the 'invite' to play wasn't a 'sweep you off your feet' kind of proposal, but LL, what incentive is there for him to even bother trying again? Why would he try harder to meet your expectations, when you clearly show no love or compassion or effort to get there with him?

I'm sorry LL, but you are clearly not going to get what you want by "going with the flow" or waiting for it to spontaneously occur to H. to be romantic and often....

I'm not trying to shoot down - I simply disagree with your tactics. I see a woman who is sad and frustrated and it oozes out in every instance. I'd be very AFRAID to approach you for anything because I stand no chance of getting a "response" . . . instead, I'd get a lashing on how I'm not good enough.

I truly don't want to dish out whacks - I very simply disagree with you. I know it's not easy and I know that I too get so super frustrated at times that I am unable to respond in a way that gets me closer to what I want. But that's me...

Now what would happen if tonight you initiated a bit of what you were looking for last night (kissing, whatever)? Would he respond? Again, I'd be afraid if I were in his shoes, but I'm asking you what you think he would do?

Hugs,
-H2H

Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/20/06 01:25 PM
Quote:

Now what would happen if tonight you initiated a bit of what you were looking for last night (kissing, whatever)? Would he respond? Again, I'd be afraid if I were in his shoes, but I'm asking you what you think he would do?





After having my advances rejected over the years I've just stopped iniating.
Posted By: Heart2Heart Re: feeling lost - 01/20/06 01:31 PM
Quote:

After having my advances rejected over the years I've just stopped iniating.



Exactly! So by imitating his behavior of rejection, you expect that he'll keep trying, only better? This is exactly what I was talking about - you give ZERO incentive to try again or ever! And YOU know how that feels because you've lived it.

LL, this is going to sound harsh, but here goes: Get over yourself! You are clearly not happy, and you keep choosing to do what is NOT working. Someone has to break the silly cycle of "no, YOU first" . . . and since you're the one here venting your confusion and unhappiness, I'm thinking it's YOU that has to do something different.

You can stay stuck behind your expectations, CREATING exactly what you experience in the world OR you can push those useless expectations aside and try creating a better experience - with or without H., that part is up to you.

What do you hope to get out of being here? What are you searching for?

hugs,
-H2H
Posted By: ANS Re: feeling lost - 01/20/06 09:34 PM
Hi LL,

I havenít been back on the boards for an awfully long time, but I decided to take a look and see if there was anyone I recognized, and LoÖ there you were!

Not much has changed, has it? Not much has changed in the exchanges you have with the other fine folks around here either.

Well, not much has changed for me either. But I do have something different you may want to try. It almost looks like youíre already trying it out for size.

Give up!

Thatís what I did, and though it hasnít improved anything, itís made life tolerable.

and aside note to H2H and others:

I donít completely disagree with you. In fact, youíll note below that I revel in any small thing. Iím not being facetious when I say that. But Iíve refocused my efforts from trying to change my Wís POV/attitude (whatever you want to call it) to allowing myself to love her despite the way she treats me. Iím not kidding myself that thingsíll ever get better, but I havenít relinquished all hope eiher.

I saw on your last thread that people were trying to get you to envisage your future Ė either divorced, or married. Theyíre asking you to look deep into your soul and try to figure out why you want to stay M, or why you want to D.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it is an attempt to justify your values and your feelings. Canít be done, LL. Your values and feelings cannot be reduced to words.

I believe in marriage and commitment. I canít explain why that is considering I get nothing back from either. But itís what I believe in. I truly believe that my W shares this belief, but her vision of what that means is different from mine, and she canít explain it any better than I can. Her vision of what M should be seems so feeble, and if the truth be known, it looks a lot like your Hís vision.

I havenít had a trace of affection Ė in any form Ė for four years. A peck on the forehead, or sometimes even on the lips for the kidsí benefit, but nothing genuine. No phone calls. No doing anything togetherÖ Nada!

How do I handle this?

It took some mind-twisting at first, but I reduced my expectations to zero. If I can make a kiss last longer than a nanosecond, then I revel in it, but donít expect it to change.

I donít try to foist affection on her, but to the extent that sheíll allow, I try not to stifle my affection for her. I work my butt off at the office, and then I come home and do more chores than I previously thought I would have the energy to do. This is what she wants from me, so this is what I give her. Outward signs of affection are unwelcome, so I express my affection inwardly.

Love is give and take, but I cannot take what she will not give. I can only give what she is willing to take.

Loveless marriage? Not quite. I love her!

Some posters say you deserve more, and I completely agree. But what will you gain by divorce? The only thing I can think of is the freedom to seek the love you deserve with someone else. The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you donít go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsíll be better in the long run.

The argument has been made that your current M is showing a bad example to your kids. What sort of example would it show if they saw the same thing twice?

Iím not saying thatíll happen, LL, but I think that this is one of your concerns, and is maybe why you want to be sure thingsíll be better if you file.

The other thing is that I donít think your kids see a lack of affection. I know everyone says that kids are soooooo observant, but the truth of the matter is, they love their mom. they love their dad. If you make it obvious (by divorcing) that things are bad, theyíll see it, and itíll hurt.

I can say that from the perspective of a child of divorce, and a parent living in a semi-loveless marriage. I know it doesnít fit ďcommon wisdom.Ē It isnít a popular sentiment. But Iíve looked for, and not found, any evidence to the contrary, so as far as I can tell, the so-called ďexpertsĒ are just forwarding their own concept of how it should be.

By saying this, Iím not trying to talk you into one course or another, LL. Divorce will not end your kidsí lives. But it will not improve them either.

Which brings me back to you. Whatís the difference if you live your married life as if you were divorced (your Hís vision), or actually file. The only difference I can see is that youíll be living under separate roofs and trying to figure out how to reduce the impact of this arrangement on your kids.

Like you, I want a better M (for me). But sometimes we canít change or R by changing ourselves. So, I choose to make a better M for my W. Let everyone scream, ďAndyís a doormat!Ē from the rooftops.

But Iím not a doormat, LL because I consciously choose this path Ė not to better my M Ė but because in my value system, itís the right thing to do. Iím only a doormat if I choose to feel like a doormat.

Iíve given trying to get the marriage I want. I have to admit that I havenít given up on wanting it, or even hoping it will happen some day. But Iím sure you remember me saying, that my biggest goal is to be, ďThe best Andy I can be.Ē

Of course, thatís defined by Andyís values, so I wonít say that Iím better than anyone else, and you or anyone else can think of me as a doormat or anything else. I donít care. Itís all a matter of perspective.

Just giving you another POV that you may want to try out. Figure out your values, LL, and donít justify them to anyone. Not anyone on these boards. Not your H. Nobody. Your values are yours.
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/24/06 01:53 PM
H2H,

Thanks for your words but from them I can tell you don't fully understand my position at all.

It's not simply about "getting over myself"...it's not about simply creating a better experience for myself with or without H.

I have created a better experience for myself in all other areas of life with the exception of a romantic/intimate r with h that I cannot do alone no matter how hard I try somethings gotta come from him and it's not.

does that mean I should leave? I'm not certain and that's the conundrum I find myself in...not happy with h and not sure I'd be any happier without him.

LL
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/24/06 02:08 PM
Hey Andy,

I'd hoped that you'd be telling me your r with w is finally what you want.

Quote:

Not much has changed, has it? Not much has changed in the exchanges you have with the other fine folks around here either.




HEY, I'm not sure exactly how to take that! I know I can come off as brash or cold or even condesending at times but when people continue to try to get their point across in a way that communicates to me that they aren't fully understanding my position what can I do but be honest.

Quote:

Well, not much has changed for me either. But I do have something different you may want to try. It almost looks like youíre already trying it out for size.

Give up!

Thatís what I did, and though it hasnít improved anything, itís made life tolerable.





I have in some sense given up and though it makes things tolerable it still leaves me with an empty space...I can have all the hobbies, friends, personal goals etc keeping me afloat but with out a reciporically intimate r with my intended life long parnter aren't I missing something? acceptance of "that's just the way it is" isn't going to fill that void it's just (in my opion) giving in.

Quote:

I saw on your last thread that people were trying to get you to envisage your future Ė either divorced, or married. Theyíre asking you to look deep into your soul and try to figure out why you want to stay M, or why you want to D.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it is an attempt to justify your values and your feelings. Canít be done, LL. Your values and feelings cannot be reduced to words




I know this, YOU know this but I don't think others know this. How can I express my position to people on a bb when my position can't be fully put into words.

Quote:

The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you donít go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsíll be better in the long run.





In part that is very true but not all of the equation.

Andy...I don't look at you as a doormat...I look at you as someone who's still got hope and desire but what's going to happen to you and your r with w when that hope and desire burn out like the expectations have? that's kind of where I am now...sure there are sparks of hope left but not enough to start the fire and eventually without tending too those sparks may go out too...what then?

LL
Posted By: ANS Re: feeling lost - 01/24/06 08:47 PM
Hi again, LL,
Quote:

I'd hoped that you'd be telling me your r with w is finally what you want.



me too.

***sigh***
Quote:

HEY, I'm not sure exactly how to take that! I know I can come off as brash or cold or even condesending at times but when people continue to try to get their point across in a way that communicates to me that they aren't fully understanding my position what can I do but be honest.


That was my point, really. As great as the advice youíre receiving is, youíve tried pretty much all of it before, and youíve also told people that youíve tried it before. I donít see you as brash, cold, or condescending.

But I sure see you as frustrated Ė both with respects to not getting results from your DB efforts, and for trying to explain why you arenít getting results.

On the other hand, there are signs of hope for you. I think youíre too tired and frustrated to act on them, and I can certainly understand that!

As to the rest of it, I completely agree. In principle. When I say I still have hope, I mean yes. I have hope. For someday. But I bury that hope because thereís no reason or evidence for me to have hope. Truthfully, things have got much much worse since the last time I posted to you. My M has truly got to the point where I have no interaction with my W outside parenting, and housework (which, of course, we do separately). If I were to actually feel hope, Iíd die.

Itís one of those things that comes under the category of ďYour values and feelings cannot be reduced to words.Ē I guess the closest I can come to explaining it is that I compartmentalize my feelings. If W doesnít shrink away when I kiss her, or when I place my hand against her leg while she sleeps, I enjoy the moment.

And then itís gone. Canít dwell on it.
Quote:

but with out a reciporically intimate r with my intended life long parnter aren't I missing something? acceptance of "that's just the way it is" isn't going to fill that void it's just (in my opion) giving in.


I too feel very empty sometimes. W says Iím being negative

Iíve given up trying to persuade her. That hasnít worked in years. She only treats me the way she wants to be treated, and the way she thinks I deserve to be treated. And the way she feels capable of treating me. Quite honestly, itís probably the same attitude I had towards her. What Iíve found out about myself is that I not only underestimated the impact of this attitude on my Wís feelings, but I underestimated myself. I was capable of more. Iím adamant that I wonít underestimate myself again.

Quote:

Quote:

The key word is seek, LL. I think the reason you donít go for it is because there are no guarantees that thingsíll be better in the long run.




In part that is very true but not all of the equation.


Yeah. I know.
Quote:

Andy...I don't look at you as a doormat...I look at you as someone who's still got hope and desire but what's going to happen to you and your r with w when that hope and desire burn out like the expectations have? that's kind of where I am now...sure there are sparks of hope left but not enough to start the fire and eventually without tending too those sparks may go out too...what then?


My greatest fear throughout my DB-ing was that I would work so hard Ė by myself - on OR that the sparks would go out, but surprisingly, they didnít. The only explanation I have for that is that I could see the error she was making when she vilified me. I decided not to fall into the same trap.

If you want to try my methodology, LL, it would simply be to take pleasure when your H calls you during the day. Say yes, and enjoy it when he makes advances on you. Have supper with your H when heís home early enough, and talk to him. Enjoy his company.

And donít expect consistency. Thatíll only come if you donít expect it of him.

So there ya go. More of the same advice youíve been getting all along

And once again, itís advice only you can follow. Wish I could talk to your H.
Posted By: Walking Re: feeling lost - 01/24/06 10:41 PM
Quote:

I have created a better experience for myself in all other areas of life with the exception of a romantic/intimate r with h that I cannot do alone no matter how hard I try somethings gotta come from him and it's not.




Take a lover ....

That way your kids will have you and your husband together, your husband will have you to cook his dinner, you will have your husband to take out the trash and you will have a passionate and intimate relationship with someone.
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/26/06 04:33 AM
Andy,

Quote:

And once again, itís advice only you can follow. Wish I could talk to your H.




You'll have to get in line with the multitude of others that with they could talk to my h.

I'll keep hanging on to what's still there for as long as I can...that's really all I can do for now.

LL
Posted By: lostlove Re: feeling lost - 01/26/06 04:35 AM
Quote:



Take a lover ....

That way your kids will have you and your husband together, your husband will have you to cook his dinner, you will have your husband to take out the trash and you will have a passionate and intimate relationship with someone.





Though it's certainly not the first time that option has been suggested to me...I have to wonder if you are at all serious or just testing me.

taking a lover would only solve one problem...but of course in solving that one problem it would cause a pluthera of others.

LL
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