drowning in it - DivorceBusting.com

LL,

Listen to your intution, don't try to guess what he's doing. He's probably at it again. Ok, here's my take... evidence can mean anything from him spanking the monkey to really fooling around. Either case, it's pulling energy and attention from you M. And he's not participating, right? There's no sex, right? There's the blank look and the mental vacancy on his part, right?

I can't give you a perspective of being in my 30s and young kids and having to deal with this. I was in my 40s with almost grown kids when I went through this.

But I realized I had to cut bait. It sucked me dry.

How long can you live with indecision? Do you want to live with indecision?

LL,

Listen to your intuition, it will not steer you wrong. If you are suspecting that he is up to something then he probably is. You have trust issues (who can blame you) do you not think that you deserve to be in a R where you can 100% trust the other? of course you do.

This is what i did:

My H. has been having A for 1.5 yr. and I took sometime for myself and did a lot of soul searching and decided that i need to be true to myself. I have a young daughter and I have thought a lot about her and how divorce would affect her. I also thought about the life lessons I want to teach her.... like don't let anyone treat you like a door mat.

Once I made my decision ( to divorce him)I knew it was for the best because all of my stress and worry just seemend to leave me it was really interesting. for me I can now vision my new life as hard as it will be I am truly looking forward to the next chapter in my life.

good luck to you.

Hey you guys!

We're supposed to be divorce busters here, not trying to talk people out of their marriages. First of all LL, I'll admit it, men just don't get it! I already explained the "gunk" in his undies to you, so I won't go into that here. I know your H works hard, and he probably is tired at night. He just doesn't understand your needs (a man thing)!

But when he had his A before, he wanted a D, right? And he moved out! This time, it's only your suspicions! You need to put those behind you. At least he's home every night. LM123 hit the nail right on the head! Reconciliation is tough, VERY tough! I still think if I had been more patient with my W, I may still be M.

Let's look at the good side of things. Your H is a good provider. He's a good father. Has he brought up D again? Make a list of the 10 best things about him... (

)! Then forget ALL the bad things! Did you ever think you're expecting too much?????? (Before all you other posters pick on me, LL and I go back a long way, so I can be blunt with her)

I've learned more about women the last 3 years, than I did the whole 31 years with my W, mostly from this board. Men are simple, and women are complicated! This time, you should give him the benefit of the doubt! Part of the WAW syndrome is the woman finally gives up in her M. When she gives up, and resigns herself to a D, she stops all the bitching and complaining. At that point the H thinks the W has finally "got it", and everything is all right!

I don't think you want to be a WAW, LL!

We're supposed to be divorce busters here, not trying to talk people out of their marriages.

True, if the relationships are good ones gone astray and are worthwhile to attempt to salvage. It doesn't seem to me to be the case here.

Things went bad once the relationship had settled; H creates distance by not being involved; taking sex away; the more he's spoken to about it by his partner, the more he distances, such as he avoids going to sleep with her; he doesn't openly discuss his activities (more distance); now there's evidence of his being with others (more distance).

Do you see where this is headed? There will be a confrontation sooner or later, and that's going to make things uglier.

Tony,

I don't think I implied for LL to go for a D or even consider being a walkaway.

But if we go into repeat and we feeling that same sense of "deja vu" all over again, time to do something different. Usually, intuition is on target--> something's wrong or not right. That's what I meant. This guy needs to wake up. LL is a cool gal! Maybe copping a new attitude or an indifference might be the trick? Don't know. I remember her from way back when myself...

Later, off to have a weekend guys....

I was married for 15yrs to my now exH (not the R that I am on here for)...as my attorney once said if he only could keep his !@#$ in his pants, you two would still be married as we are to this day good friends...but after awhile of living like I did with him, him working 24/7, not being around, having A's...he did everything he could to distance himself from the M and from us (D and I). One day we were on a family vacation down in the keys...a song by Sheryl Crow came on (My Favorite Mistake)...I listened and swear it was like she was singing my life away...LOL...got on the phone made arrangement to be picked up at the airport and left him there in the Keys...and left our marriage. I never looked back on it. I had died inside being the only one fighting for our M...and then the minute I stopped trying it was over. I did try during the separation but just didn't have it in me anymore.

I am sorry that you are going through this, but I can understand your pain. Have I had regrets over the past 6 yrs...actually, no. I haven't. It was for the best. I waited 8 mos to file just in case I changed my mind...but I saw no signs coming from him of attempts to work on it and so I let it die. D didn't care because he was never there for her then and he isn't there for her now...sad but very true, nor was he ever a husband. Friends had told me for years, leave him, you are better off without him and I tried to hang on for D sake...and a good friend told me...Only you will know when YOU have had enough...and one day I did...

I wish you the best in whatever your decision may be and having walked in your shoes my friend, I know it will be painful and I wish you all the love and strength in the world to decide what is best for YOU.

Hi All,

Thanks for all the replies.
I can't go with just my intuition...if I do and confront h I wont have a leg to stand on when he makes his excuses for the things I've seen that lead me to believe he's up to no good. Then where will I be? even more confused.

Tony,
You are right, this is a site for those trying to save marriages BUT NYsurvivor said it best...if it isn't there to be saved..it isn't there.
You have the past confused...yes h wanted a D during his A the last time..but not until having the A undetected for over a year and then pretending to not have the A and work on the m for a few months then still didn't want a D when he moved out...he had been out of the house for almost 3 months when he wanted a D. Back then when I expressed my feelings that things weren't right..all I got from him was "I'm doing the best I can" "No, I'm not having an A" "bla bla bla". If I listen to you and try to just be happy and accept that he's a provider who's here everynight (mind you he came home everynight during his a until the seperation) I'll be being a doormat and that's just not good enough for me.

I'm keeping my eyes open and have started to keep a journal...see if I can find any trends that may lead me to more clues. Either way somethings gotta change around here or I will be a waw but the trouble is I don't think I'll really be the waw I think it's h who's a wah who just hasn't walked.

LL

how to catch a cheating spouse?

Okay - people say not to snoop for a very valid reason - it's too difficult to act as if and turn the R around if you are steamed up about the fantasy email they sent to oW yesterday. So a lot of people would say, put your energies into making your R with h exciting and new and fun, and even if he iS having an A now, it will fade away as your marriage becomes a more interesting place to be.

That being said - if your position is truly that you no longer want him if he is currently having an affair - and you are CLEAR on that in your own mind - then I think it's reasonable to try to find out the truth.

Ways to go about this?
some people have downloaded keystroke logger programs onto their computer so they can see what H has typed.

You might enlist a friend to spy on H when you think he might be having an opportunity to stray. (or a local fellow DBer?)

Check cell phone records. (I know some people on the board have managed to do this even when their spouse hid the bills, most companies have a feature where you can check it online, not sure how to go about doing this, but someone here probably knows.)

What time does your H have available? I would have thought my H didn't have any opportunity - I found out about his affair by accident from the computer. If I HAD had suspicions, I would only have been able to catch him at lunchtime from his work.

Ellie

LL,
I'm not sure how to say this so that it will be helpful and not construed as criticism, because honestly LL my intent is to help, not criticize. But I'm a pretty direct person so here goes.

WHAT exactly are you looking for here? Nowhere did I suggest that you haven't DB'ed enough or well. Nowhere did I mention that your changes should include your H or be about your M. Nowhere did I even mention your past changes - so whether or not they were plenty is irrelevant to me at this juncture. I simply asked YOU to define what you meant by "something's gotta change" - YOU tell me what that is.

Do you need me or anyone on the BB to give you an "OK" to leaving your H.? If that's all you want then, "OK, leave your H." But I really don't believe that's what you are after.

I hear great tiredness in your posts - AND great defensiveness too. You so dismissed my questions about what those changes would look like that you long to make, or more accurately 'poof, appear'. You keep saying you've made all the changes you can . . . Sweetie, I'm not talking about THOSE changes. I am asking you to stop getting defensive, stop bringing up the past changes & efforts and tell us WHAT exactly is going to change and how are you going to do it.

My guess from your posts is that this change you are talking about is that YOU are going to leave the M. That's what I understand. So okay, if that's the big change - what's it going to look like? How are you going to start implementing that? When are you going to DO something about the change you seek? Stop seeking to justify your desired change or making it easier by blaming H. & a possible other A. If you're that unhappy, and you feel you've done everything you could do - then stop looking at H. and start planning what YOU, and only YOU can do to get where you want to be.

Of course you deserve love & attention, we all do. I don't think I insinuated otherwise in my post. But we all know that you don't get much love & attention by casting stones & complaining.

Hmmmm, was I blunt enough?

Now, let me ask you again - What changes do you want to see happen? Are you moving? Are you filing? WHAT do you want to see happen in the next 12 months? Would perhaps taking a little time away by yourself help? I know you have small kids, but is there any way to take a long weekend and have some quiet time to think & ease up on yourself?

Hugs,
-H2H

It being YOUR life.

you all deserve better. If your spouse is cheating (most epecially if you don't have children yet) there's no reason why you should 1. blame yourself 2. accept it and wait for them to wake up and come back to you

accept the fact that you deserve to be treated with respect and you are not getting it from your spouse at the moment.

if they cheated and are sorry and you are willing to work on the r with them fine

if they cheated and aren't sorry (or are denying it) move on.

you may be surprized to realize that when you suddenly respect yourself enough to expect better for yourself than a person who treats you with such disregard is when they will suddenly want to come back to you. My advice...unless they show that they are willing to face their demons and truly work on the r (not just come home and get back to normal) don't let them.

Who is "you all" ? More importantly, what is Lostlove going to do with the free advice she just doled out?

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If your spouse is cheating (most epecially if you don't have children yet) there's no reason why you should 1. blame yourself 2. accept it and wait for them to wake up and come back to you

I don't think anyone, and it's not in DR that I recall, says you should blame yourself! HOWEVER, I do think it's a VERY good idea to look at your role in establishing, or encouraging a bad dynamic between you and your partner. To see how you also contributed to the situation. And NO , I am not saying that you are to blame or responsible for their choice to have an affair. What I am saying is that when you look within, you very often can find that some roots of the problem in the M. within yourself.

I know, I know . . . you've already done that.... so I go back to my original question - what are YOU going to do with this advice of yours?

-H2H

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I know, I know . . . you've already done that.... so I go back to my original question - what are YOU going to do with this advice of yours?

If I knew that my h were having an A I'd pack his bags and be rid of him.

I don't KNOW that he's having an A...I simply KNOW that the R is not working...I know that I'm willing but he seems only to be willing to go with the status quo and expects me to be happy with it.

If I didn't have two small children involved I'd not be posting here I'd be packing my bags and leaving. Why should I continue to try when my h doesn't seem to want to.

I didn't try to accept his a and abandonment for him to come home and go right back to the way things were...

As far as blaming myself for his A? never did...sure I was a typical wife who wanted her h home for dinner or to spend some time with his children but H's affair had little to do with me. He can't handle life...he simply went from OW to paxil. Maybe I should go on paxil and then we'll live happily ever after.

LL

Well, I figured I'd take another crack at trying to help. LL, I'm not sure what any of us can say. You seem to immediately reject any attempt at finding out if there's another way to ask H. for what you want, or of getting what you want. Several posts ago you mentioned that you talked to H. (on a Wed. night) and got the same response from him. Did you talk to him in the same old manner, thus getting the same old response? Are you sure there's nothing more to learn in terms of communication?

Anyhoo, I've gone back through your thread and pulled out some quotes that I had questions on:

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Why should I continue to try when my h doesn't seem to want to.

Again, no one is asking you to continue. You are, however, on a site where people come to get help to save their M., so it's natural that we'd chime in with help in that direction. But I'm perfectly willing to give you support to come to terms with your decision to leave the M., if that's what you want.

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That is correct but to be more accurate...A or no A if things don't change..I'm getting ready to walk.

You've mentioned many times that you're getting ready. What do you need to know to move from getting ready to Step 1? What questions do you have about taking that decision? Is it about the procedure? The effect on the kids? Financial security? What information are you missing? There's plenty of folks around here with expertise in all areas.

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H2H: When are you going to DO something about the change you seek?

LL: When I'm certain that there's no other option. When I'm ready to.

Here's another one of those "when I'm ready" responses. But you also mention "no other options"? Are there other options you can think of? What have you been doing to seek confirmation of the availability (or not) of these other options?

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H2H: If you're that unhappy, and you feel you've done everything you could do - then stop looking at H. and start planning what YOU, and only YOU can do to get where you want to be.

LL: I don't really want to be a D'd mother of two. But since I can't change my h I guess that's what I've got to do.

OK, so it sounds like you'd really like to find one of those 'other options'. And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...

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did you ever stop and think that I complain here instead of complaining to H? after all there really isn't time for me to complain to him..he's either not here or he's here but asleep.

I'm perfectly aware of the need to vent - we all come here for a bit of that. But complaining with no action is like trying to nail jello to the wall - a lesson in futility.

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LL: what's gotta change is me. I know that I can no longer stay in this r but have been trying to make it work. now the changes that are needed are to make me strong enough to do what needs to be done.

So what will make you "strong enough to do what needs to be done"? Do you know where/how/when you can obtain that 'strength' you need?

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LL: (goals)
- go back to c
- find out what/how to take action in filing...I can't do this anymore.

Any progress on these? Are these goals some of the things you need to garner strength?

LL, it really sounds like you need some distance - I'll even call it perspective. . . Again, I understand the frustration & sadness, etc. But how is all this "I can't", "no use", "done that", etc. ever going to help you come to a strong, assured decision of what to do? How can you reject the mere notion that perhaps your communication style with H. leaves room for improvement? Do you really just want to sit and pout?

Hugs,
-H2H

H2H,

I really do appreciate the help you're trying to offer. Maybe my frustration is keeping me from hearing what you are trying to say.

I'll do my best to answer your questions without emotions getting in the way

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Several posts ago you mentioned that you talked to H. (on a Wed. night) and got the same response from him. Did you talk to him in the same old manner, thus getting the same old response? Are you sure there's nothing more to learn in terms of communication?

I'm sure there's always something to learn...I'm just not sure what esle there is for me to learn. I did my best to not talk to him in the same old manner...I tried very hard to not be emotional about it in any way...tried to just be matter of fact. It didn't seem to get me to where I wanted to be though.

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Again, no one is asking you to continue. You are, however, on a site where people come to get help to save their M., so it's natural that we'd chime in with help in that direction. But I'm perfectly willing to give you support to come to terms with your decision to leave the M., if that's what you want.

I don't want to end my M, I want to make it better. I'm only willing to end my M in the event that it doesn't get better soon.

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You've mentioned many times that you're getting ready. What do you need to know to move from getting ready to Step 1? What questions do you have about taking that decision? Is it about the procedure? The effect on the kids? Financial security? What information are you missing? There's plenty of folks around here with expertise in all areas.

It's not about procedure it's about knowing for certain that it's the best choice for me.

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Here's another one of those "when I'm ready" responses. But you also mention "no other options"? Are there other options you can think of? What have you been doing to seek confirmation of the availability (or not) of these other options?

"other options" would be to find a way to get the m where I want it.

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OK, so it sounds like you'd really like to find one of those 'other options'. And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...

Like what? I've gotten a life, I've tried to be more positive around h, compliment him, not nag him or make complaints, act as if etc. tried no r talk, tried r talk... I'm at a loss.

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So what will make you "strong enough to do what needs to be done"? Do you know where/how/when you can obtain that 'strength' you need?

need to start taking better care of me...
get back to a regular bed time regardless of where h has fallen asleep (just because he's sprawled all over the bed doesn't mean I can't move him over it's my bed too)
start working out again...starting is the hard part..always seems to be something else going on.
little things. The big thing being strong enough to make the decision for myself as to what I want to do.

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LL: (goals)
- go back to c
- find out what/how to take action in filing...I can't do this anymore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any progress on these? Are these goals some of the things you need to garner strength?

Yes, and Yes I've got an apt with my c next week. As far as finding out how to file? I figure that's something to look into down the line if it comes to that.

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it really sounds like you need some distance - I'll even call it perspective. . . Again, I understand the frustration & sadness, etc. But how is all this "I can't", "no use", "done that", etc. ever going to help you come to a strong, assured decision of what to do? How can you reject the mere notion that perhaps your communication style with H. leaves room for improvement? Do you really just want to sit and pout?

I'll admit that when I step back things aren't as horrible as I think when I'm allowing myself to get all wrapped up in it...but they still aren't great just subdued. My no use, been there done that attitude is obviously getting me nowhere...it's clearly frustration.
As I said I'm sure my communication style could use some work but I do work hard at saying things in the right manner...I'm not perfect but I do try to think before I speak to h. My communication style has improved over the years but I still get stonewalled by h.
I've done enough pouting, crying, screaming...I just want to find a solution...I know some but h has to be willing and it doesn't seem like he is.

so for me I'd like

back later

Oh LL, I think I'm seeing a bit of that LL I 'knew' from your earlier threads!

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Maybe my frustration is keeping me from hearing what you are trying to say.

Bingo! I honestly believe this is true, LL. And I think I know it so well, because I was (and often still am) the same way. When my frustration or anxiety level gets turned up, I seem to stop being able to listen, learn and try.

I've recommended this book just about everywhere on the board, but I'll say it again that I credit reading The Lost Art of Listening with really changing the dynamic between SO & I. Note: we aren't back together, but we actually get along so much better than ever before - we talk everyday & see each other often. So, I'm not a 'success' story in DB terms, but I do feel very successful in having grown our friendship into something wonderful.

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H2H: And I'll even drive you nuts by saying I think it IS possible to change your H., or at least many patterns/dynamics in your M. But for that you have to be willing to do something differently yourself...

LL: Like what? I've gotten a life, I've tried to be more positive around h, compliment him, not nag him or make complaints, act as if etc. tried no r talk, tried r talk... I'm at a loss.

First, I do believe you have done many, many things to improve yourself. But I have also believed all along that your frustration was blocking you from finding new solutions, from listening, and from trying - and I think it's probably written ALL over your attitude & behavior.

So, now that I see a tiny crack in your mood, I'm gonna stick with you. Let's try to find something, anything new to try. I don't have a ready bag o'tricks, LL. But I'm willing to think along with you.

How long has it been since you've kept a solutions journal? Do you remember some of the small things you did before that H. noticed? How did it come about that H. decided to return home? (And before you start telling me it was JUST for the kids, I'm going to ask you to keep with me - what have you got to lose?)

You don't spend much time posting about the every day details. It would really help me see where there's some room for "something different" if you posted about any interactions you do have, okay? Can we make a deal? For one week, just keep posting the day-to-day stuff, keeping the complaints & 'done that' comments to a minimum. Game?

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need to start taking better care of me...
get back to a regular bed time regardless of where h has fallen asleep (just because he's sprawled all over the bed doesn't mean I can't move him over it's my bed too)
start working out again...starting is the hard part..always seems to be something else going on.
little things. The big thing being strong enough to make the decision for myself as to what I want to do.

I agree 100% - You have got to take care of yourself! It's so hard when frustration and other negative emotions seem so prominent, but we only feel WORSE when we don't get enough sleep and proper food & exercise. Make a commitment to yourself, LL. I know starting is a b!tch . . . um, I keep talking about exercising and so far only manage to give my fingers a workout on the keyboard!

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I'll admit that when I step back things aren't as horrible as I think when I'm allowing myself to get all wrapped up in it...but they still aren't great just subdued. My no use, been there done that attitude is obviously getting me nowhere...it's clearly frustration. [SNIP] I've done enough pouting, crying, screaming...I just want to find a solution

I'm glad you made an appt. with the C. and I'm thrilled to see you write that you can see it all slightly differently when you get your frustration out of the way!!!! I see an opening here, LL, and I'm going take it.

As I said, I don't have any answers, but if you'll indulge me with a few more details and putting our heads together, I'm sure there is SOMETHING new you can try - and we'll measure results together.

Hugs,
-H2H

Dear LL,
I spent a long time reading your thread. It's not that far off from my sitch. All I can offer is that you need to focus on YOU. It appears that you are very angry and have a right to be so. It's just that experience has taught me that the anger will get you nothing. Anger won't stop your H from cheating...if he is. Anger won't make him change his ways. Anger won't help you focus on your life. Anger won't help your children. I do know that when you can let the anger go and start working a plan for your life, you will start to feel better. No one can tell you when it's time to move on. But you'll know. And if right now you don't know, that's ok. Grab onto something that you DO know. Even if it's the smallest thing like "taking a walk makes me feel better" Then, take a walk and another one and another one. Find what works for you and do it. The anger will start to go away. Trust me. I've got the shortest fuse on the planet and this has been able to help me. It was very scary for me, the control freak, to realize that I didn't have control over what was going on in my life. I went through all the stages of rage, devastation, depression, etc. It was very calming and empowering when I figured out that what I do have control of is myself and how I choose to react to what is happening. ((((LL)))) (I hope that means a hug!)
I wish you well and will hold you in my thoughts.

Spitfire23

Quote:

You don't spend much time posting about the every day details. It would really help me see where there's some room for "something different" if you posted about any interactions you do have, okay? Can we make a deal? For one week, just keep posting the day-to-day stuff, keeping the complaints & 'done that' comments to a minimum. Game?

Game...

I'll start with today Sunday

I don't recall if h came to bed last night or not...
he was on the couch asleep when I went up...
dd woke me this morning but I didn't get up knew h was around. dd eventually woke son while h was taking a shower..h was going to dunkins for muffins and his coffee so I got up to keep the kids under control..
h took son to drop off scouting for food bags at assigned houses then took son to lake to fish for about an hour..I hung out with dd had a tea party and vaccuumed the basement/playroom/bar area etc. put away some laundry cleaned up a bit.
h brought son home so he could venture off to friends house to watch football.
so the kids and I are going to have lunch, go food shopping and who knows what else for the rest of the day/night.

LL

thanks for the kind words spitfire...I'm trying to focus on me.

so H2H I'm just jotting down more of the day to day

well as I said h left around noon to go watch the 1 oclock football game...told son he'd call to let us know what channel the race was on (is trying to get son into nascar) the kids and I went off and did foodshopping..made up some index cards with sons reading words on them for practice (he's in first grade) and went over them with him, had another tea party with dd and card game with son (yu gi oh makes no sense to me but I just play along) made us some dinner had a few laughs..gave dd her bath (bought some bathtub crayons so she can practice writing her name, letters and shapes, had son take a shower read them a few books kissed them goodnight and sat down to watch some tv myself. It's now 9:30 pm and h never did call...

I'll include in tommorows post wether or not he made it home.

LL

Just to let you know I am reading along. I think it will take a few days of details to figure out something different.

One thing I note is that you tell what happened in broad strokes, but capture none of the conversation/interaction you have with H. I'd like to hear a bit more how these conversations go.

What does H. say when he's popping over to friend's house? How do you respond? etc. I'm guessing that there is something in the way the communication happens that there may be room for something different.

For example, you say " h brought son home so he could venture off to friends house to watch football. " What if you had plans to meet a friend? Does H. ask you about your schedule? Do you ask him to watch the kids on Sat. or Sun. afternoon because you've got plans?

It's all the same question really - I think we need to hear the conversation between you two.

Anyways, I'm glad you're game and I am hoping we can find something to try!

Hugs,
-H2H

hey H2H,

I know it's going to take a while to get the jist of what's going on here...I use broad strokes to detail things because when it comes to h that's all there is. I knew h was going to friends to watch football because that's what he does...they used to go to the home games but have sold their tx so now they swap weeks...one week they come here the next he goes down there...

he didn't say much of anything...just dropped son in the house said "I'll call later to tell s what channel the race is on" "Ok, I'm going to take them foodshopping and then we'll be here" pretty much it.

If I have plans on a Sat or Sun I'd have to let him know in advance and may (usually) have to get a sitter or plan on bringing the kids with me. I keep my plans to after the kids are in bed for the most part to avoid that frustration.

So to continue

Sunday night I got tired of watching tv..h never did call..@ 10pm I went up to the bedroom to read for a while..@11pm h came home...did not come upstairs..went directly to basement...I read for a bit more and then went to sleep...son came into my room sometime in the middle of the night...h still hadn't made it up..I don't think he made it up all night. H left for work just before we all got up.

Monday

I made breakfast for the kids and dropped them both at school, came home and cleaned up breakfast and sat down for a bit...decided to get off my butt and start doing my pilates workout again...started the tape and the phone rang (10am ish)..I figured I'm starting this and not letting a phone call keep me from it so didn't answer...it was h. I finished the tape and called h back...he just wanted to say hello and complained of a kink in his shoulder ( I avoided commenting that sleeping on the couch'll do that) that he was on his way to another job. Let him know I was doing my tape so didn't answer..that I planned on using the eliptical glider but would prefer a treadmill...had talked about getting a treadmil in the past but was told no...this time he said well maybe we'll look into getting one for you if you'll use it. That would be great I said..know they can be expensive...but I've seen some that do what I want/need for not too much. We'll see he says. call lasted all of 2 mins.

I then got on the eliptical glider for about 10 min (hey it's a start) went to pick dd up from school (11:30) brought her home made lunch, took a shower, got her dressed for dancing school, sat in during her dance class (so cute) went to visit an old play mate for a bit...left dd there to pick son up from school and returned to meet other child of playdate at school bus...hung out there til @ 5 on the way home h called cell phone...my cell says "home" I anser "hello home" h says "hi home" I say "no I'm not home I'm me, You're home" h says "I know I'm home your not home...well I've been home for a bit (not normal time for h to be home...new time of year hitting in weeks past it was 7 or later for him to get home.)...took a shower and was getting hungry so called to see where you were" I say "well we're on our way home from friends house"

the kids and I get home to find h in the family room...a peck on the cheek for me from h then he retreats to the basement while I cook dinner, son colors at the kitchen table dd watches tv in the playroom. Dinners ready dd calls h up. while eating the kids and I play rock paper scissors..eventually h tells us to stop..we do. I have son read some of his reading word cards for daddy...daddy takes over.
H retreats to basement while I clean up dinner and make the kids some icecream w banana's and strawberries.
son tries to get h to play card game with him but h says in a min...he's watching tv and on the phone with buddie. the kids come back up stairs I'm still cleaning up.
Son has managed to get h to play go fish with him but has to play in the basment, son asks why "cause I'm sitting on the couch" replies h.

so now they're (dd begged to play too) playing go fish on the other side of the stairs (puter is in basement stairs in middle...h's room on one side of stairs puter and playroom on other.

time for me to put dd to bed...we'll see how the rest of the night goes.

LL

rest of Monday night

put dd to bed
put s to bed
let h know they both wanted him to go up and give them kisses, he did.
I sat at puter researching Christmas presents for the kids h returned to his couch in basement...
I heard the tivo beep letting him know it wanted to change the channel to record my show...he grunted I said "are you stopping it from recording my show" he said "No" fiddled with it to get it to record on the other tuner while he watched his stuff...a few min later I heard my show on but said nothing...looked over and he was asleep...I put some stuff away and then looked for the remote to start my show from the begining...he woke long enough to hand it to me...I sat on the floor and watched my show then changed it back to live tv (his sports news stuff)...went up to read and go to bed...h showed up eventually sometime in the middle of the night without a word.
h woke and left this am before I got up gave me a peck on the forehead...and there you have it a typical 24 hr period in LL land. Tue-Sat will be basically the same...not much communication to look at because there really isn't much communication...h works, h may or may not call during the day for a min to say hello very briefly, h returns home, h retreats to basement, h either falls asleep in basement or when saying goodnight to kiddos goes to bed himself.

That's the problem.

LL

Tuesday

h woke and left while we were just starting to stir (well dd was already awake as usual)
breakfast, get kids dressed and drop son at school (no school for dd today)
dd wanted to go visit her baby cousin so we called they had plans but said we could stop by for a bit so we did.
errands/lunch out with dd
h called cell phone at 2pm ish left a message (we were in the store) saying hello heading back to the office has gotten wet enough in the rain should be heading home around 4.
pick son up from school arive home to find new bedding for sons room being delivered (recently painted sons room and ordered him new bedding)
the kids play with the delivery boxes (after emptying them and putting the new sheets in the wash) on the kitchen floor while I start making sauce and think about what's for dinner (the sauce wont be done and is to make eggplant parm for thanksgiving with)
send an email to bils wife to rsvp an invite incase h didn't mention to her. (she replied he didn't)
son decides it's opposite day so we have pancakes and bacon for dinner.
h calls while I'm cooking at 4:30 letting us know he's on his way home with the dump truck so tell son (son likes to push the button to dump whatever daddy has brought home to extend the driveway)
the kids and I eat shortly after 5
I leave h's out for him
h arives while the kids are playing and I'm doing dishes I get my peck hello
son asks daddy to read his book is told to wait
I start attempting to tear apart the bedskirts that came with the bedding sets to make valances for the windows.
H takes a shower and calls son up to read him the book reluctantly son goes up (he wanted to read it on the main floor)
I bring dd up for her bath and suggest son take his shower.
h retreats to the basement once son is in the shower but not before son and I torture him with the nose hair trimers...son is curious why it makes daddy cry but h assures him it's just that it tickles so much (I don't primp h often but every once in a while the nose must be cared for he's too ticklish to do it himself...squirms and kicks his feet...)
I put dd to bed, return to the bedskirt valance madness in the kitchen while son is in the fam room..I'm talking to him about the show he's watching...let him know when it's over it's time to go up
the phone rings a friend needing a favor from me that I can't help with this time...she starts chatting and time runs over on son he doesn't seem to mind but is no longer watching show (he knows it's bedtime)is now waiting with me amongst the bedskirt valance madness, I'm about to get off the phone and put son up but h comes up from the basement and questions why he's still up...I let him know I'm on my way and he says "it's ok I'll take him up". so a few min later I go up to give son kisses and h has gone to bed (it's only just after 8pm) I ask "are you kidding" h replies "no, I don't feel good and I don't want to sleep on the goddam couch" I go kiss son and return to ask h what he means by "don't feel good" h let's me know he's had chest pains doesn't know what...could be a muscle he's just going to rest and see...I say Ok I'll try to be quiet then.

so I return to the kitchen to attempt to make valances out of bedskirts and figure I'll take a break and fill you in on another day in the life of LL and co.

I have my appointment with c tommorow...not really sure what I'm suppose to gain from it this go around but I'll give it a shot...

LL

Wednesday

h leaves before we're up as usual
I get kids breakfast snacks/lunches for school and drop them off...return to clean up breakfast make a call to my mom and take a shower before going to councelor apt.
apt went OK..don't know what I was really hoping to gain by going...
had some errands to run..on the way to first errand h called cell phone to say hello..let me know he ran out of one of his meds (is on paxil and clorazapam? ran out of clorazapam so took some lorazapam this week left him AFU in his words) and is having his doc order more asked me what I was up to...I let him know I just got out of C apointment and had some other errands to run (listed them for him) he ignored the c and other stuff and went back into talking about his meds etc...then said ok well I'm hoping to get out of town at such and such a time..I like this getting home early (up until this week h wasn't getting home until 7pm or later some nights) we can talk about how your c appointment went tonight. Ok says me.

so I continue my day of errands etc...pick kids up from school get home and start making chicken soup (it's foggy and rainy and homeade chicken soup gets rid of that yuck)

h arives as we're finishing eating (@5:30) H says his hellos and give us our pecks...takes a shower and has his soup in the basement...dd begs me to do excersize video with her so I do ( I started it monday and was suposed to do it today anyway so thank you dd) but of course the kids aren't cooperating so I ask them to go down to their playroom (they were fighting over the extra mat) h hears me so calls them downstairs.
I finish and take dd up to bed...but the rain is making lots of noise outside her room (there's another lower roof outside her windows) I suggest playing some music to drown it out but her cd player isn't working...I come down to find h at the puter...ask him to please go up to her room the radio he's been taking out on the canoe is not working and the rain is scaring her...he of course gets huffy and goes into a tirade about how it was working fine after he took it out on the canoe...(how would he know, he never put it back in her room just left it in the garage and I did ask him each time not to take it...it's hers) I just say well it's not working now and she's scared and wants you to come up. (mind you every night I put her to bed she tells me to send daddy up to give her kisses, I tell him and he ignores it) H reluctantly with caveman arms goes up stairs. I foolishly say "well if you didn't take it out on the canoe you there'd be no suggesting that's what broke it"

Yes, I know I could have simply said "the radio's not working" and not mention his having taken it out on the canoe but I asked him repeatedly not to take her radio..it's not waterproof but he did what he wanted and now it doesn't work. And if it matters at all I said it matter of factly ...the one you took out on the canoe...is not working.

after doing the dinner dishes and cleaning up...I sit at puter reading some stuff (emails, threads, etc) son comes down because the satelite is messing up his channel so he wants to watch daddys tv...daddy says ok, son says "I like coming down here with you" daddy says "you can come down anytime you want" (huh? isn't this the same guy who tells them to stay on their side when he's watching football or the race or the news? tells them they're not allowed on his side WTF?)

I let son know when shows over it's time to go to bed...I figure I'll let daddy and son have their couch time so I go up to the family room for 5 min..then call son up...son asks daddy to take him up...so up they go...I follow to bring some stuff up to dd's room. H had put dd to bed in our room so had to carry her back to her bed...I gave her another kiss..daddy brought her some of her dolls she left in our bed...I brought h to sons room to show him the curtains etc...he says "I know I saw it, looks good"
son is in bathroom h is already in bed...I retreat to the basement (I prefer the tivo tv...don't have to watch commercials can watch two episodes of CSI in the time it takes to watch one with commercials) son comes down...needs kisses so I bring him back up...h says to son "what are you doing" I let him know...put son in bed with kisses on the way by my bedroom say good night to h..h says nothing i peek in and say good night h says "Oh, I thought you were talking to him.

and that's it.

another run of the mill..leave it to beaver day at LL's house.

LL

I was just wondering what your husband's journal would say if he was writing about the same day. I wonder if it would be something like this ...

I left for work early today. I�ve changed my meds this week and it�s left me feeling weird. I woke up and rather than take out my downer behaviour on the whole family ducked out and went to work.

I called Lost Love this morning to say hi and let her know I was thinking of her. She said she�d been to counselling and had been running a whole heap of other errands. She�s been going to that same counsellor for such a long time and yet she still seems dissatisfied. She�s really unhappy and I don�t know what to do about it. I told her I�d be home early so we could catch up and she can tell me how she went at the counsellor, maybe I�ll finally get some hints from her about what I can do to help her be happier.

I got home as early as I could allowing for traffic � at 5.30pm and they had already finished dinner. I wish Lost Love would just agree to put dinner back to 6.00pm or 6.30pm. I love eating with the family, but LL has it all served up and put away by 5.30pm every day. I don�t think she wants to eat with me. She�d made a delicious soup � she�s the best cook I know - but eat together, no way. She and the kids had theirs finished as always so I took mine down to the basement and ate it in front of the TV � alone again.

I wanted to talk to her about counselling, but she did some exercise tape thing with our little girl and then went straight to the golly computer, like she does every night. I don�t think she wants to be near me. Then she started on me about kissing the kids good night, fixing the radio I apparently broke - Last time I used it it was fine - but anyway � continued hassling me about saying good night to the kids. Of course I�m going to say good night to them � I love them. I love tucking them in.

So I did my evening stuff and went to bed, thinking maybe she�ll come in and we can talk and have a cuddle � but no � she�s in the basement for the rest of the night watching CSI or some other thing.

I love her and I miss her, but I don�t know how to get close to her and spend time with her. I wish she�d meet me half way.

You know he's going through this as well ...

I do appreciate the attempt at looking through h's eyes at the sit but it's far from reality...

Quote:

I was just wondering what your husband's journal would say if he was writing about the same day. I wonder if it would be something like this ...

I left for work early today. I�ve changed my meds this week and it�s left me feeling weird. I woke up and rather than take out my downer behaviour on the whole family ducked out and went to work.

H always leaves for work early...meds or no meds he hardly saw son awake at all during his first two years of life because he left for work before he woke and didn't get home til after he was in bed.

I called Lost Love this morning to say hi and let her know I was thinking of her. She said she�d been to counselling and had been running a whole heap of other errands. She�s been going to that same counsellor for such a long time and yet she still seems dissatisfied.

haven't been to the c in almost 3 years today was first visit back

She�s really unhappy and I don�t know what to do about it. I told her I�d be home early so we could catch up and she can tell me how she went at the counsellor, maybe I�ll finally get some hints from her about what I can do to help her be happier.

I got over giving hints a long time ago..I've told h directly I'd like him to set some time asside for us to connect (even suggested one night a week for a date night..don't even have to leave the house...) that I'd like for him to actually kiss me during our infrequent sexual encounters (even placed some listerine strips in his nightstand) oh and to have them be less infrequent.

I got home as early as I could allowing for traffic � at 5.30pm and they had already finished dinner. I wish Lost Love would just agree to put dinner back to 6.00pm or 6.30pm. I love eating with the family, but LL has it all served up and put away by 5.30pm every day. I don�t think she wants to eat with me. She�d made a delicious soup � she�s the best cook I know - but eat together, no way.

it is only this week that h has started ariving home @5:30 the majority of the year h doesn't get home until 7 or later should I just let my kids starve and eat in their pajamas while waiting for dad to get home? If h were home at 5:30 every night I'd be more than happy to wait on dinner for him.

She and the kids had theirs finished as always so I took mine down to the basement and ate it in front of the TV � alone again.

His choice the kids and I were all up in the kitchen at that time..hadn't even gotten up from the table yet he could have sat with us but chose not to.

I wanted to talk to her about counselling, but she did some exercise tape thing with our little girl and then went straight to the golly computer, like she does every night.

I was in the kitchen with the kids he had already retreated to the basement.

I don�t think she wants to be near me.

how could he get that message from me when I've asked him to make time for us?

Then she started on me about kissing the kids good night,

I didn't start in on him..I simply let him know that his dd wanted him.

fixing the radio I apparently broke - Last time I used it it was fine - but anyway � continued hassling me about saying good night to the kids.

I didn't continue hassleing him..I simply let him know she wanted him

Of course I�m going to say good night to them � I love them. I love tucking them in.

No, it's not "of course" 95% of the time he doesn't kiss them goodnight, he's already asleep on the couch when I put them up to bed...I quietly let him know they want him...he stirs and says "OK" but doesn't get up...it's gotten to the point where dd says to me after I read her her story and kiss her good night "this time really tell daddy I want him to give me a kiss"

So I did my evening stuff and went to bed,

evening stuff? his evening stuff usually involves little more than eating, showering and falling asleep

thinking maybe she�ll come in and we can talk and have a cuddle � but no � she�s in the basement for the rest of the night watching CSI or some other thing.

I said good night didn't I? he could have asked me to come in and I would have...if he's in bed he's going to sleep..I've fallen for the "well maybe he'll want to talk or cuddle" trap before it doesn't get me anywhere so I occupy myself until I'm tired enough to fall asleep without feeling rejected by him next to me.

I love her and I miss her, but I don�t know how to get close to her and spend time with her. I wish she�d meet me half way.

half way?

You know he's going through this as well ...

he's going through it by choice.

LL

Hi LL,
I have been following along and will have some questions about what I see as certain opportunities to do something different. But I wanted to comment on Walkingback's post and your reply.

Quote:

I do appreciate the attempt at looking through h's eyes at the sit but it's far from reality...

Hmmm, I see you've got the market covered on what H. is thinking and doing? ? ? ?

Walkingback's version, is of course fiction, it's just another possible viewpoint, as she doesn't really know H. nor has talked to him. However, even though you DO know your H., I'll remind you that NO ONE can read anyone else's mind. And though you probably have a good handle on what H. could be thinking, I am somewhat shocked at how quickly the Frustration/Defensive reaction comes out in your response. Can you entertain any other interpretation to H.'s thoughts & behaviors than disinterest, lazy or self-absorbed?

Do you hold any good thoughts about H.?

LL, if you have already decided what H. thinks and what his intentions are and what his choices are, then I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for. What room is there in your mind to search for something to help turnaround this situation?

Throughout your last post you confidently determine H's thoughts, motives and 'wrong' choices or behaviors. It seems as if you have a prescribed set of things that should happen when H. comes home - and when he doesn't do these things, you give up. Giving up quickly helps you avoid your fear of rejection. I'm curious - did you ask H. to sit down and join the family at the table? Or did you just assume he didn't want to because he hadn't?

Didn't he tell you that he would be home earlier that day - couldn't you have held dinner for a 1/2 hour? I know you said this is a NEW phenomenon, but aren't you virtually ignoring the NEW arrival time by respsonding in exactly the same old way? What incentive is there for H. to come home earlier when he gets no appreciation for coming home earlier, or feeling welcomed when he does get home?

Quote:

I got over giving hints a long time ago..I've told h directly I'd like him to set some time asside for us to connect (even suggested one night a week for a date night..don't even have to leave the house...) that I'd like for him to actually kiss me during our infrequent sexual encounters (even placed some listerine strips in his nightstand) oh and to have them be less infrequent.

At first I thought that maybe we should put "asking directly for what I want" in the "NOT working category". But there is still some doubt in my mind as to HOW you communicate directly what it is you want . . . Perhaps your straight shootin' requests come out as complaints, or criticisms? I really don't know, which is why I ask you to post the actual conversations you have - what you said, what he said, etc. It's the only way to attempt breaking down where things might be going awry.

Quote:

WB: I don�t think she wants to be near me.

LL: how could he get that message from me when I've asked him to make time for us?

There are MANY ways he could get that message from you, LL. What do you do or say when he gets home? Do you welcome him home, give him a kiss, tell him you're glad he's home in time for dinner? Do you keep to your attention on what you & the kids were doing? Do you ask him about his day? Does your body language & facial expressions reflect your firm belief that you already know everything he's thinking and what he's going to do?

LL, I'm not there - I can't see what's going on, but I do sense from your posts that you are so convinced that what you think about H. is true - that he chooses this rather mundane and affection-starved existence. If this belief is so deeply held, then there is no room for change - your mind is set on proving what you believe. Walkingback's post is just a way of allowing your mind to consider a different POV. It's accuracy isn't so important, as it's ability to remind you that you CANNOT read someone's mind.

Quote:

WB: thinking maybe she�ll come in and we can talk and have a cuddle � but no � she�s in the basement for the rest of the night watching CSI or some other thing.

I said good night didn't I? he could have asked me to come in and I would have...if he's in bed he's going to sleep..I've fallen for the "well maybe he'll want to talk or cuddle" trap before it doesn't get me anywhere so I occupy myself until I'm tired enough to fall asleep without feeling rejected by him next to me.

C'mon LL - "I said good night, didn't I?" You're here because you said you'd like to turn things around - is this all the effort you're willing to put into this? You seem so angry at H. - seemingly so unwilling to really try something different. Oh, I know you're going to tell me that you HAVE tried - and I know you've done plenty. But to say that you said good night and that's supposed to magically give him an opening to say "aw, come here LL, let's cuddle" is just crock! IMHO, you're going to have lay down your anger & resentment for a little while in search of ways to put in a decent effort here....

I've got get ready for work, so I'll have to come around later. But I want to say that I was surprised to hear that he calls during the day to say hi and check in with you. I didn't get that from your earlier, less descriptive posts. In my mind, there ARE opportunities to respond differently during those calls, and when he gets home. That is, IF you are willing to let go of your deeply held beliefs of what H. is thinking & his intentions.

I'll be back,
-H2H

Quote:

Hi LL,
I have been following along and will have some questions about what I see as certain opportunities to do something different. But I wanted to comment on Walkingback's post and your reply.

Quote:

I do appreciate the attempt at looking through h's eyes at the sit but it's far from reality...

Hmmm, I see you've got the market covered on what H. is thinking and doing? ? ? ?

I never said such a thing...I don't believe anywhere in my reply I stated what he was THINKING...I simply stated his ACTIONS.

Walkingback's version, is of course fiction, it's just another possible viewpoint, as she doesn't really know H. nor has talked to him.

Nor as is apparent from her version has she read or payed attention to much of what I say here.

However, even though you DO know your H., I'll remind you that NO ONE can read anyone else's mind. And though you probably have a good handle on what H. could be thinking, I am somewhat shocked at how quickly the Frustration/Defensive reaction comes out in your response. Can you entertain any other interpretation to H.'s thoughts & behaviors than disinterest, lazy or self-absorbed? Do you hold any good thoughts about H.?

For a long long time pre knowledge of A and seperation I viewed h as a hard worker who was providing for our family...I could often be heard defending him when his own family would make statements to me like "I couldn't live like this, you guys don't do anything together" by saying "well h works hard so we can have what we have to share with you (they used to show up alot during the summer for cookouts weekly emptyhanded back then)" I don't claim to know H or what H is thinking that's part of my frustration. I don't mind the idea of looking at things from a different perspective but when they are completely out of the park and presented in a manner that makes me the bad guy I'm left with no choice but to defend myself.

LL, if you have already decided what H. thinks and what his intentions are and what his choices are, then I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for.

I don't claim to know what h thinks or what his inentions or choices are...I simply go with the flow. I'd like to know what h is thinking but all he has to offer is "that's just the way I am"

What room is there in your mind to search for something to help turnaround this situation?

I'll admit I'm at my wits end here and have little desire to make another attempt...I'd rather it come from him. I've been trying here and there...the past two fridays I've asked him to rent us a video to watch after the kids are in bed...though he says they look good he falls asleep within the first 5 min.

Throughout your last post you confidently determine H's thoughts, motives and 'wrong' choices or behaviors.

No I certainly DO NOT. I simply explain why what walkingback implies are H's thoughts don't make sense and give examples of his actions..I don't anywhere imply what h is thinking.

It seems as if you have a prescribed set of things that should happen when H. comes home - and when he doesn't do these things, you give up. Giving up quickly helps you avoid your fear of rejection.

If I gave up quicly I'd have been gone already.

I'm curious - did you ask H. to sit down and join the family at the table? Or did you just assume he didn't want to because he hadn't?

I didn't assume anything...he didn't sit with us means he didn't sit with us nothing more...the invitation was there to sit with us he looked at me and said "I'm going to get cleaned up and then I'll eat"

Didn't he tell you that he would be home earlier that day - couldn't you have held dinner for a 1/2 hour?

The kids are hungry at 5 waiting for dinner

I know you said this is a NEW phenomenon, but aren't you virtually ignoring the NEW arrival time by respsonding in exactly the same old way? What incentive is there for H. to come home earlier when he gets no appreciation for coming home earlier, or feeling welcomed when he does get home?

it's all I can do to get the kids to finish their dinner and not run to the door to greet h. I wait my turn to greet h when we've all greeted him at once he seems overwhelmed.

Quote:

I got over giving hints a long time ago..I've told h directly I'd like him to set some time asside for us to connect (even suggested one night a week for a date night..don't even have to leave the house...) that I'd like for him to actually kiss me during our infrequent sexual encounters (even placed some listerine strips in his nightstand) oh and to have them be less infrequent.

At first I thought that maybe we should put "asking directly for what I want" in the "NOT working category". But there is still some doubt in my mind as to HOW you communicate directly what it is you want . . . Perhaps your straight shootin' requests come out as complaints, or criticisms? I really don't know, which is why I ask you to post the actual conversations you have - what you said, what he said, etc. It's the only way to attempt breaking down where things might be going awry.

When there's a conversation between us that's more than one phrase each and isn't about what are you doing today I'll let you know.

Quote:

WB: I don�t think she wants to be near me.

LL: how could he get that message from me when I've asked him to make time for us?

There are MANY ways he could get that message from you, LL. What do you do or say when he gets home? Do you welcome him home, give him a kiss, tell him you're glad he's home in time for dinner? Do you keep to your attention on what you & the kids were doing? Do you ask him about his day? Does your body language & facial expressions reflect your firm belief that you already know everything he's thinking and what he's going to do?

depends very much on the day and how we are getting along or whether or not I've got the stomach to attempt play the act as if game or not.

LL, I'm not there - I can't see what's going on, but I do sense from your posts that you are so convinced that what you think about H. is true - that he chooses this rather mundane and affection-starved existence. If this belief is so deeply held, then there is no room for change - your mind is set on proving what you believe.

Thing is I don't believe it at all...but h seems to...when I ask about it he replies "that's just the way I am" and he's been that way for so long that I almost do believe him.

Walkingback's post is just a way of allowing your mind to consider a different POV. It's accuracy isn't so important, as it's ability to remind you that you CANNOT read someone's mind.

as I said, I've tried to see things from h's point of view...it no longer helps

Quote:

WB: thinking maybe she�ll come in and we can talk and have a cuddle � but no � she�s in the basement for the rest of the night watching CSI or some other thing.

I said good night didn't I? he could have asked me to come in and I would have...if he's in bed he's going to sleep..I've fallen for the "well maybe he'll want to talk or cuddle" trap before it doesn't get me anywhere so I occupy myself until I'm tired enough to fall asleep without feeling rejected by him next to me.

C'mon LL - "I said good night, didn't I?" You're here because you said you'd like to turn things around - is this all the effort you're willing to put into this? You seem so angry at H. - seemingly so unwilling to really try something different. Oh, I know you're going to tell me that you HAVE tried - and I know you've done plenty. But to say that you said good night and that's supposed to magically give him an opening to say "aw, come here LL, let's cuddle" is just crock! IMHO, you're going to have lay down your anger & resentment for a little while in search of ways to put in a decent effort here....

I didn't have to say goodnight I could have just walked by as he does to me...it's not a grand gesture it's a baby step. What would you have me do? go in there and start talking to him? or worse yet not talk to him but lay there not tired (after all it was only 8pm) getting frustrated at him for hoggin up the bed.

I've got get ready for work, so I'll have to come around later. But I want to say that I was surprised to hear that he calls during the day to say hi and check in with you. I didn't get that from your earlier, less descriptive posts.

Because it's also a new phenominon...for the past 9 months or so he wasn't calling during the day was only calling @ 6:30pm when on his way home.

In my mind, there ARE opportunities to respond differently during those calls, and when he gets home. That is, IF you are willing to let go of your deeply held beliefs of what H. is thinking & his intentions.

You must realize that I'm screwed either way I look at it...
I can accept h for who he is or what he presents...the hard worker who's happy to come home and have a meal cooked for him a nice couch and tv to sit on, kids to say goodnight to and a wife who cares for the home...the "that's just the way I am guy" well that leaves me empty.

OR

this isn't just the way h is and he's been lying to me for the past 15 years and actually is a person full of life and has the ability to have an intimate affectionate relationship but has hidden it from me for all this time.

That'd be great but how frustrating would that be and also how scary...to have it come to this (me shutting down and feeling like giving up) before he wakes up?

LL

I'll be back,
-H2H

Hi, LL.
I haven't posted much in ages, but occasionally I take a few moments and look around through some threads. I happened upon yours in another forum, and I was struck by your comment that you are mainly spending your time in the infidelity forum, "getting beat up." (forgive me if I got that wrong, but that was the main idea anyway).

So, I hopped over here, curious as to why anyone would be beating you up. I hope now, that you were just kidding. I hope that you do not feel beaten up at all. You may not realize it, but H2H is giving you a great gift here. She is not coddling you- she is prodding you along and calling you out on things.

To some that may seem harsh. Heck, I got accused of being too harsh all of the time in my postings! But, I wanted to take a moment to tell you this:

The posts that irritate you the most, or make you angry are usually the ones that you really need to read and read again. The ones that strike a nerve are often the most helpful- IF you are ready to move outside of your comfort zone and really listen to another point of view.

I know that there is lots of advice to be had here- some good, some bad. I do think, though, that people have the best of intentions. No one comes here to be cruel or to hurt anyone (I hope not, anyway!)

So, I hope you really don't feel beat up, and I hope that you and H2H continue this dialogue. I really think that it will open your eyes to something new. Others may not always have it exactly right- but with their great ideas added on to your own--well, you just might come up with the recipe for success.

If you find yourself with anger towards a post, really examine this reaction. I had to do that a lot in my posting days, and usually I came to see that I was too rigid in my thinking and I needed to explore other possibilities.

Best of luck to you, LL. You seem so sad, and I hope for better days ahead for you. As we all know (sigh), only WE can make that happen.

Thanks PamelaC - you did capture my intentions perfectly. For the record, LL, I AM on your side and I think I do understand just how frustrated you are. But if I sit on the curb w/ you in a pity party, it won't help the situation a lick. So I'll stick around some more in hopes that we can see something together.

Quote:

I don't mind the idea of looking at things from a different perspective but when they are completely out of the park and presented in a manner that makes me the bad guy I'm left with no choice but to defend myself.

LL, here's what I see. You took Walkingback's post and made it all about YOU - you took it personally, reading in it that you were being made out to be the bad guy. But step back a second . . . that post was ABOUT HIM, not you. It was about opening up to the possibility of what could be running through HIS mind. I'm pretty sure it was not meant to paint you as the bad guy. We really are on your side, LL - and yes, I'll call you out when I think you're out of line, but I can tell you that I am NOT judging you from a good or bad standpoint. I am interested in finding ways to help you change the dynamic in your M.

And I think PamelaC has a very excellent point for you. It is precisely the posts that you feel zinged by that you need to step back, take a breath, and re-read.

Quote:

I'll admit I'm at my wits end here and have little desire to make another attempt...I'd rather it come from him. I've been trying here and there

I know you're tired, LL - I often feel the same way in my own sitch. And I do understand the statement "I'd rather it come from him" but it's not likely to happen and you KNOW that. So the "trying here and there" is just NOT going to cut it. It's like pulling out a bandaid when the patient needs a tourniquet. Not terribly helpful...

Quote:

If I gave up quickly I'd have been gone already.

I was talking about giving up quickly in the moment. H. doesn't sit down, you don't do anything differently. H. changes his habits by calling you & coming home earlier, you don't change your habits. I know you are hanging in there, that you're back here on the boards. What I see is that if H. doesn't step up to the plate, which at this point I'm not sure he will (first), then you just let it be. To me this is about fear of rejection - it's easier to say "he'll never change" than to risk trying & trying and not sure you'll get results. And hey, I'm not blaming you here - I'm just saying you've got a choice to make and love your choice. Either you commit to "what IS" and decide you're going to try to find some new ways to move this lackluster situation around. Or you don't - you get to hold on to the "I'd rather he do something about it" line. It's up to you, LL. I've got no stake in it.

Quote:

The kids are hungry at 5 waiting for dinner. It's all I can do to get the kids to finish their dinner and not run to the door to greet h. I wait my turn to greet h when we've all greeted him at once he seems overwhelmed.

I don't have kids, LL. But I still don't buy it . . . I have been around plenty of families and there are things you can do to CHANGE the usual response to something different. Off the top of my head: feed the kids a small snack at 4pm; feed the kids and WAIT to have your dinner w/ H.(Letting him know as he comes in that YOU waited for him); change their lunch hour so dinner can be at 5:30pm. etc. Yes, I know it's a "new" behavior for H. - but girl, we have to seize opportunities as they come, not when we feel like it, when we're good & ready or when we're sure this pattern of behavior is gonna stay.

Quote:

I didn't have to say goodnight I could have just walked by as he does to me...it's not a grand gesture it's a baby step. What would you have me do? go in there and start talking to him? or worse yet not talk to him but lay there not tired (after all it was only 8pm) getting frustrated at him for hoggin up the bed.

No, you didn't have to say goodnight - but what good would that solution be? Why not decide what YOUR values are and live up to them? If you're like me, I have to say hello, goodbye, goodnight, etc. I find it very rude not too, even if I am feeling angry. So, whether or not the other person responds, I can at the very least feel good about living in accordance to MY values.

Can you tell me what would be so terrible about going in there and talking to him? If he's tired (which you say he's ALWAYS tired), is it too much effort to poke your head in, or sit on the bed and say SOMETHING . . . How about "I'm glad you've been able to make it home earlier this week. I like it." Or "You seem tired, are you okay? I'd like to tell you about the C. session, but if right now is not good, how about tomorrow?" Yes, LL, I DO expect you do go in there and DO something different. And I don't mean go in there w/ a bad attitude, but to go in with the hopes that one or two phrases can convey to H. that you are happy to see him (even if he's a tired slug...). Remember you were game to stick around and try . . . ?

Quote:

You must realize that I'm screwed either way I look at it...

No, LL, I don't. I think you're screwed either way because you CHOSE to be. Because you are so tired, frustrated, sad and angry that you prefer to hang on to being a victim. But who are you hurting with that? That's right, YOU. You hurt yourself every time you don't reach a little more for what you want and deserve. YOU don't live up to the marriage YOU want. You don't give because you don't receive. And in my humble opinion, it just doesn't work that way.

I go back to my thought that you could probably do some work on what YOU communicate both verbally and non-verbally. I keep saying this, but your anger & resentment comes through loud & clear through the screen. I'm pretty sure it's got to be showing at home too.

LL, no one here is making you out to the bad guy. But I'm also not going to join you in the "woe is me" chant either. You're smart, straight, funny and a wonderful mom - and probably a whole mess of things more that I don't yet know about you. Get up, LL - let go of the tired victim routine and let's keep working on capturing the interactions and looking for some new twist to try, OK?

Hugs,
-H2H

Hi LL,

I just found your thread.I'm sorry your still hurting.I hope I can help.

Remember I have five kids.So I understand the getting dinner on the table for hungry little ones.

My stbx was in the navy so I was always trying to juggle dinner time so that H could have dinner with us.How I handled that was I kept cut fruit and veggies in the fridge for when the kids were hungry.After all hungry whiney kids are just about the most annoying thing on earth.(said with love a affection towards my kids.)

It doesn't matter if they ate at the dinner table if they filled up on the fruit and veggies.After all they still were eating something good for them.

I usually had dinner on the table at about 7:00.After dinner we had quiet time for a while.Then baths and bed.When the kids got a bit older I had them take their baths before dinner.That way dinner was family time.And not a chore to be finished at the end of the day.If H was late for dinner I put it in the fridge.He would make a plate and go watch tv.I joined him.Sometimes he would tell me about his day.Sometimes he would just shovel the food in his mouth and go to sleep.

I dont know if this will help or not.But what have you got to lose.Sometimes a little change is good.If what your doing now isn't working then change it.

Honey I know this is hard.When you feel like you have given all you can and get nothing in return it can be so draining.

Take a step back.Reexamine what is working.See where you can apply what is working to what is not working.

I hope this helped.

Later Friend
Briget

Hey Pamela,

I was half kidding when I said I was being beaten up (be honest did that statement play a role in getting you to read and post on this thread or not?) I'll admit I do feel frustrated when I don't feel like I'm being heard or when it feels to me like h is being excused for his actions/inactions by pointing out where I could do things differently but I know it's all meant to be productive. I don't want coddlers I don't want people to just gang up on H with me (you may note that the last two posts to my thread in piecing had h as "the bad guy" and I didn't respond) I just want to feel that I'm understood.

LL

Hey H2H,

Quote:

Thanks PamelaC - you did capture my intentions perfectly. For the record, LL, I AM on your side and I think I do understand just how frustrated you are. But if I sit on the curb w/ you in a pity party, it won't help the situation a lick. So I'll stick around some more in hopes that we can see something together.

I don't think you're beating me up...I think your forcing me to do some thinking rather than helping me pile up the negatives.

Quote:

And I think PamelaC has a very excellent point for you. It is precisely the posts that you feel zinged by that you need to step back, take a breath, and re-read.

I know this all too well

Quote:

I know you're tired, LL - I often feel the same way in my own sitch. And I do understand the statement "I'd rather it come from him" but it's not likely to happen and you KNOW that. So the "trying here and there" is just NOT going to cut it. It's like pulling out a bandaid when the patient needs a tourniquet. Not terribly helpful...

No, not terribly helpful but what I mean is I feel like I'm always the one trying to keep or put the r together...after a while that gets tiring...it should be a two way street...take a friendship for example...if you are the one that calls and suggsets plans and s/he accepts occassionally but never calls you or makes suggestions how long are you going to keep calling?

Quote:

H. changes his habits by calling you & coming home earlier, you don't change your habits.

I know you don't want to hear it but in the past I did change my life for h..worked things around his schedule where did it get me? hungry waiting for him, grouchy kids, a grouchy h who snaps at them and then a grouchy me feeling like it would have been better not to plan around him...I can't always plan around h because there have been plenty of times when he's said he'll be home at x time and doesn't arive until an hour later. H hasn't really changed his behaviour either...this new schedule will only last a couple of months and then it'll be back to him not being home until 7 or 8pm. Changing my and the kids dinner time is not an option...we are hungry...I cook a meal and that's what we eat...If I have to wait for h to get home to eat then I'll snack and since I cooked the meal I'll eat that too...I'm already trying too lose weight and that wont help.

Quote:

No, you didn't have to say goodnight - but what good would that solution be? Why not decide what YOUR values are and live up to them? If you're like me, I have to say hello, goodbye, goodnight, etc. I find it very rude not too, even if I am feeling angry. So, whether or not the other person responds, I can at the very least feel good about living in accordance to MY values.

Yes I could have gone in and talked to him but the man was going to sleep...while a man is sleeping in his bed is not a good time to mention C or other touchy subjects...He knew I went to the C, he mentioned talking about it, He went to sleep.

Quote:

no one here is making you out to the bad guy. But I'm also not going to join you in the "woe is me" chant either. You're smart, straight, funny and a wonderful mom - and probably a whole mess of things more that I don't yet know about you. Get up, LL - let go of the tired victim routine and let's keep working on capturing the interactions and looking for some new twist to try, OK?

Thank You, and yes I'll keep looking.

LL

Thanks for the visit Bridget and the ideas...

the kids already snack on apples etc while I'm cooking dinner and are ready and waiting...DD goes to bed at 7 and son at 8 so there's not a whole lot of room for movement on dinner.

More importantly dinner time isn't something as important to h as it is to me...I grew up in a home where dinner was at 5pm everynight and we all sat as a family eating and talking...H didn't have that.

It's not about him getting home from work and us not having waited for him to eat with us...I used to cook a big breakfast on Sunday mornings...h would usually pass on it prefereing to do what he wanted to do and then eating after...or when he's home around lunch time I make lunch for everyone and he'll choose to eat somewhere else while the kids and I sit at the table together.

LL

OK so back to journaling for a week

Thursday

h had a crew working locally so didn't have to leave until a bit later and drove son to school.
h called shortly after dropping son off to tell me something funny about the drop off (I laughed about it with him)
DD had plans to make cookies with mil so I dropped her off there on the way noticed yet another vanity plate (last week I mentioned the over abundance of vanity plates to h) YODA so called h and said "vanity plates...now I'm behind YODA" h laughed and said I should find out how much they cost and get one for myself...I said "I have no idea what I would even get..I just think they're funny and wonder why people get what they do"
had a hair appointment (figured I'd take advantage of the free time)
mil wanted us to all go over for dinner so I called h to let him know he said OK.
picked up son from school and cut up some apples and dip to bring to mil's (as I said the kids get hungry) on the way back to mils found myself once again behind a vanity plated vehicle...called h to tell him this one but got no answer on any phone...a few min later he called back...had another convo about vanity plates he let me know when he'd be at mils and that was that
h held baby niece while eating so wasn't really doing much eating...I finnished and so took her so he could eat.
sat at the table with fil,sil's h and H while mil and sil chatted in other room and the kids watched tv. Once they all retired to the couches I did the dishes and packed up the kids...because we came in seperate vehicles h took son which left dd upset (she wanted to go with him) but he was already gone..I let her call his cell I then suggested that occassionally it would be nice to take her instead of son. H said sometimes he will.
On the way I call h and ask him if I can give him a hair cut...h said he was going to ask for one soon but maybe not tonight he's tired.
OK
DD and I get home but son and H aren't there yet though they left several mins before us. I call his cell and ask him if they got lost? no they just drove around the long way cause h likes that road better. OK see you in a bit and let him know the garage will be closed not because we don't like them but because dd doesn't want to get out of the car in the dark without it closed.
Bring DD in and let her know it's time for bed she of course isn't pleased wants more minutes or for daddy to come home...I let her know he's right down the street and will be home before we're done with teethbrushing etc. h and son arive I let son know it's time for him to go up too...begrudginly he comes up..they're finding their pjs etc son scuttles of to the bathroom which sets dd off cause she suddenly needs to go...I tell her to use my bathroom but she doesn't want to..prefers to sit on the floor and scream (I myself have to go to the bathroom but want to wait til they are tucken in so I don't get interupted) h comes up...I convince her to use my bathroom since daddy is there...of course she suddenly starts giggling and all is well...since h is upstairs now and I really have to go to the br I ask him to get them settled so I can go. I'm not even finnished going and he's calling me back out to them as he's on his way down the stairs.
So I go in and read them their stories..give them their kisses etc.
go down stairs to find h in the basement..I say "I thought you were tired and going to bed"
h: "I am, I just wanted to watch tv for a min and then I'm going up"
LL: "oh, OK"
I check my emails since I've been out all day stumble across a football quiz...since h is so into football I ask him some of the questions...
h: "I'm trying to watch this"
LL: "oh I'm sorry just wanted to see how fabulous we are"
we get them all right...
h goes up to bed
I watch tv for a bit and then go to bed myself.

Friday

h leaves late for work again due to a dentist appointment (apparently someones finally realized he grinds his teeth in his sleep..I've noted for some time now that he does it when he's awake...it's subtle but you can see his jaw move just enough...the new dentist was fitting him for a mouth gaurd)
I drove the kids to school and returned home to do some much needed scrubbing of the master bath shower
picked up dd from school returned home to have lunch with her and work on some more cleaning she helped me make some beds and clean up her toys etc.
h called (or I called him not sure) asked if I could take son to cub scouts tonight instead of him (so far it's been me each time)
two weeks ago on a fri night I asked him to rent me a movie and stay in the same room with me so I wouldn't be scared...they're week long rentals so I've managed to turn it into a weekly thing (well three weeks anyway) I let h know I didn't know what I wanted this time so for him to pick something that may keep him awake (the last two weeks he's fallen asleep within 5 min of starting the movie) doesn't need to be scary but I do like phsychological thrillers.
I let h know what was for dinner
Picked up son from school who was standing in the pick up line holding his spelling test in one had with a thumb up on the other (he got them all right) so it was off to the dollar store for a suction cup gun he wanted.
I called h while on the way there to let him know son passed!! even got the sentance right on the back too.
got home to make dinner while the kids played
h arived said hello and went to the basement
dinner was ready so I had the kids call him up (of course the argued over who was going to call him up)
we ate together
h retreated to the basement while the kids and I cleaned up but not before saying "that was excellent" and putting his plate in the sink.
I did the dishes and had son get his uniform on
h rented the recent Amytiville horror movie..it said on the box based on a true story so I looked on line and found an article about it (I never saw any of the others so didn't know the story...only knew "Get Out") read a bit of it and then showed it to h...who read it while we were gone
cubscout meeting was fun as usual...son earned his totem so can now start earning beads toward his patch! (we joined about a month in so have some catching up to do)
arived home to find h on his way down from putting dd to bed told me she wanted me so I went up to find her sitting in bed with the light on...gave her her kisses and returned to son who wanted a few more min. I gave him a 1/2 hr I went and took a shower then put son to bed.
joined h in the basement to watch the movie...
he actually stayed awake (may have had something to do with his reading about it generating an interest? who knows) the movie was not scary...h saw the original one way back when and said it was nothing like it..the other WAS scary.
H started to fall asleep but I wanted to watch a little more goofy tv to get the edge off (ok so it was a little scary) I asked him to stay with me...he fell asleep but when I was done (less than a 1/2 hr later) woke him up and we went up to bed together...
I was hoping for some interaction but h was already softly snoring when I got in bed.
I cuddled up against him and tried to accept that as enough. (it has been over two months now)

Saturday AM

h off to work
I wake with dd and son make some french toast and bacon then get dressed and head out to pick up the scouting for food bags that h and son dropped of the week before. 9 out of 19 houses had filled them and left them out for us...son was cute counting each house that left something and saying "guess they forgot" when there was nothing there.
brought the bags to the school and stayed for a bit helping them sort...someone actually donated a can of soup that expired in 1991...eeeew! I sorted a bag that had 8 soup cans expired in 2003...some bags were full of brand new stuff even still had the reciept.
returned home...cleanup the kitchen.
son went out to play dd played in the kitchen.
h called to let me know he was on his way to last appointment and would be home soon...he's got the bobcat (small tractor) home to do some work in the driveway (spreading two big piles of stone that were delivered for the extension to the drive he's making)
I asked if he'd want to eat lunch when he got home or should I feed the kids beforehand...he said to feed them because he'll just want to get to work when he gets home.
so I made lunch and called son in...
after lunch I cleaned up while son and dd found their coats and sneakers to go out and wait for daddy (they take turns riding on his lap in the bobcat)
h arives home...the kids are watching him in the bobcat...

LL

rest of Saturday

I look over sons cubscout handbook to see how we can start earning beads.
I go out and let h know that if son helps him he'll earn a bead...also ask him if he has a map of our town (for another bead for son to earn)
dd comes in and out
son goes from helping dad to playing with neighbors and back again.
at one point son comes in a says he wants to go to x place for dinner but daddy doesn't want to...daddy wants to go to y.
I go out and ask h w'sup...suggest place z..h agrees to says he'll be in a little bit and we'll go.
neighbor girl comes to play with dd.
h arives in the house (son has been in a for a while waiting to go)
I'm still looking over cubscout book and show h how he jsut helped son earn a bead and some of the other things we need to to as a family for him to earn more.
h disapears.
about an hour later I find h in the bedroom...ask him if we're still going.
let neighbor know she's got to go home
pack the kids up and off we go.
h gets a little frustrated with kids at dinner but we all get over it.
get home and I take dd up for bath and bed time.
come downstairs to find son watching batman and h in basement half asleep (at this point it's 7:30)
I go up and watch the movie with son
h is sound asleep
at 9:30 Put son to sleep and go to sleep myself...

Sun am I'm accused of leaving h on the couch? since when am I his mommy?

So that's a week in my life...not terrible but where are the kisses, where's the time spent with h laughing, where's the if I may be so bold sex.

LL

when h first came home

thought it may be helpful to link up an old thread...this one is about 5 months into h coming home...

though some things then were worse than now...some things were clearly better and still some the same.

LL

LL,

I have been reading your stitch and I am so sorry that you are in such an incredible amount of pain right now. One thing I noticed is that you seem to want someone to answer why you should continue to do this. I'll give you two good reasons: your children.

However, I know you don't want to stay married just so your children have parents that are still together. You want a healthy R. Well, your children need to see what a healthy R looks like too. Think about the kind of marriage you and H are modeling for them right now (I know you are upholding your end of trying to change so I hear you). The reason for this statement is I wonder what kind of marriage your husband's folks have. Is he just playing out the role that was modeled for him? If so, is this the type of marriage you want your children to have down the line?

I was thinking it might be a good idea to edit your week in the life and even add some thoughts like, "at this point I was wishing you had done X" and show it to hubby and say, "Is this really the life you want?" Quite frankly, what you wrote was depressing and made me start to keep track of my interactions. LL, you can't keep this kind of life up anymore so now let's really get down to work and see what we can do to help. I'm game, are you?

this time last year

there's another link to the past...I used to post a lot more back then...so there's more to see...not much has changed since then.

Hi flanuer,

editing my week in the life of with footnotes for h sounds like a great idea in theory...but I'm afraid it will only send the same ole message to him "you're not doing enough".

re. his family...his parents have an odd r infact fil lived with us for almost 3 years (only moved out recently)
while mil lived everywhere (a vaca place they were intended to both move to, sils, granmils etc)
I've asked h several times if that is the kind of m he wants to have and he states NO...well then I ask "why are we acting like that now?"

fil works to pay the bills and is constantly on errand fixing or painting this or that...Mil's always off shopping or running some errand...in the 3 years that fil lived here not once did he go out with mil or have mil come over to spend time with him.

one of my old threads describes the r's of both h's parents and mine...

LL

Forgot to mention as it was done before I was asked to keep a daily log of interactions...I did make note of it (well not the how just that I knew) on antother thread

I contacted the old OW...if h is involved with anyone it's not her...

I simply called her and stated "h is having an a I just wanted to know were you that specail or is it someone new"

she was in shock...told me a lot about her life now and then and how she regretted a lot of things etc etc. How for a long time she hated my h.

she even called me the next day and left a message for me to call her back...

she said "after talking to you I though I should feel like...I told you so..ha ha...but instead I'm really sad"

I assume that her feelings are probably different than she'd expect because she's moved on and found what she was looking for (though she did end up Ding her h she's got a bf that sounds good for her) so there's no satisfaction in the pain of another.

Knowing that it's not her is both helpful and harmful...

it's helpful because it could very well mean there's no one harmful because if there is someone it's someone new and that just means h is a repeat offender. Yes it would be a repeat if it were the same ow but more understandable...if they had something they had something.

Things aren't terrible they just aren't the way I'd like them to be.

LL

Hi LL,
Just spent the last few days catching up on your sitch � phew!

I guess I always check your posts when I come here because I always felt like our sitches were so similar (even down to the ages of our kids) and also now you�re one of the few left of the �old gang� that was posting when I was a newbie

I really know exactly where you are coming from, you have been dbing like crazy these 2 or 3 years and where has it got you? That�s just how I feel � I�ve made changes, I�ve tried when am I going to see results? It�s like all the DBing has done is make the WA more comfortable without changing anything for us.

I feel like I have fundamental issues with this whole DB process, I don�t think it is true that you can do it on your own that you are the only one that needs to change and if you change that will change the R. The other partner has to be clear that they need to make changes too they should not be let off the hook. If they want the R to work they have to do their part, if they don�t want the R to work then it�s not going to work no matter what the DBing partner does.

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Things aren�t terrible they just aren�t the way I�d like them to be

But that IS terrible, just settling for what you don�t like is terrible. Just because he�s not beating you does not mean that you have to accept it. OK you have a nice house, food on the table blah blah, there are plenty worse off than you , quit whineing etc etc. We�ve heard it all. That�s NOT the point it�s thinking like that that has been keeping us in these unhappy Rs year in year out. YOU DESERVE BETTER and it�s because of whatever self-esteem issues you�ve had that you�ve talked yourself (and I�ve talked myself) into not believing we deserve better.

By all means keep up the good DBing but there is another necessary part of this which is to keep calling the S out on what they need to be doing. It seems like a contradiction in good DBing terms to keep calling them on stuff but I think that is the vital part of this that I and you too LL have left out. How do we DB well and still make sure the other half knows their part and knows whether they are doing it without going back to our old critical nagging ways that got us into this mess in the first place.

So now you know he�s not having an A � doesn�t really make it any better does it? I�m pretty sure H is not having another A � it doesn�t stop our R from stinking � it just means it really is about US and not about him being lured away by some floozy.

You�ve had loads of good advice, I am trying to learn from it too, but I sense that you are ready to move on. You felt like you needed an excuse, you wanted him to be having an A but you don�t need an excuse LL. Sometimes we feel when we have been in a relationship for a long time that we don�t want to throw away that long history that big investment � but ask yourself how much of the future do you want to throw away?

I know that this is a DB board I shouldn�t be encouraging you to move on. If you want to give it one more shot then by all means do that � but this time don�t let it be all on your side. Insist � I mean INSIST that he does his part. Give it a year � tell him you are giving it a year � tell him what you need from him don�t accept excuses. If he says he�s tired he works hard or whatever just say that�s just an excuse I want you to start working on this R or I�m gone. Everytime he backslides tell him he�s backsliding don�t keep feeling like it�s your fault. Men get lazy we know that TonyP told you that. If all goes well and at the end of the year you are happy, tell him you�ll give it another year

take care

Fran

Sorry for using your thread to vent about my own situation.
You're in trouble here and I'm making it all about ME
Where have we seen that before

Take good care of yourself LL, I know you will come to the right place in the end because you are working hard on it and you have so many great DBers here helping you out.

Fran

Hi LL, hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

As another old hand, would you mind stopping by
Not waving but drowning

Hey I just noticed I used the same word - drowning - that you did. I guess that's how it feels

Fran

well this week it was h's turn to have the guys come here to watch football.

I had to take son to a b-day pty for one of his classmates so left dd home with him.

apparenently while I was gone someone was at my computer looking at porn sights and lots of them. some they directly typed the web address into the browser. By the time I got home (I was only gone for about 3 hours with son and no one had been at the puter before I left) only h and one buddie were left (well when I left for the pty there was only h and two buddies) I saw the two sites that were directly typed in a questioned..neither had anything to say about it.

so this am while the kids are at school I decided to check and see what else is on the puter and there's tons of sick crap. This stuff isn't usually there (I check from time to time) so I can either assume it all got there yesterday or has been piling up.

Called h and let him know I'd rather he not have the guys here for football anymore (christ my 4 year old daughter was in the house while they were looking at this stuff) H still claims to not know who did it blames one person who usally uses the puter here (in the past he's only gone to sport or cigar sites so this would be out of charector at least for here and this wasn't the first time I left the house while they were watching football just the first time I didn't take both kids with me) says he'll talk to them...that he can't babysit everyone and didn't know anything about it.

Maybe I'd be able to just laugh at it...you know a bunch of guys watching football and one clown logs onto the porn sites but my daughter was here (some of the sites they were on were videos of people having sex not just pictures. My daughter was here and I don't have a good relationship with h.

It blows!

Oh LL!

What can I say - The man is an ape

Ok lets back up a little - just suppose he really didn't know what they were doing:
You need to give him the benefit of the doubt ONE TIME. And let him make reparation by standing up to these so-called buddies and telling them what they can and can't do in his house. He needs to talk to them and he needs to NOT say "hey guys the wife is on my case..." he needs to say "I'm really pissed off with you guys, my little daughter was in the house don't you EVER do that again". If he can't do that then he has no self-respect and he is not protecting his family the way a real man ought to.

Maybe you can talk to him making it feel like you're in this together - We don't really know who did this but we need to sort this problem out - we need to protect our daughter. That kind of thing.

UUGGHH!

take care

Fran

That's all I've got to say! Looks like you're getting a lot of good advice here!

Now if you would only listen....................

LL,

when you phoned ow and she said that she wanted to say I told you so...

What did this mean? Can you question her about H? I'd like to know what he was like when he was with her.

Also try asking him: what do you think I think of you?

Does he have trouble apologizing or saying Thank you?

Fran,

As far as I know h did stand up to his friends...he asked who was on the puter, got a confession and told them not to do it again. We'll see.

LL

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That's all I've got to say! Looks like you're getting a lot of good advice here!

Now if you would only listen....................

Now if h would only listen....

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LL,

when you phoned ow and she said that she wanted to say I told you so...

What did this mean?

it meant she thought she should feel happy that things didn't work out...in other words I told you we all married the wrong people.

Can you question her about H?

We (Ow and I) have decided that it was in the past...she learned from it and should move on...I'm not calling her again...the problems in my m have nothing to do with her...never did.

I'd like to know what he was like when he was with her.

So would I. I know that he used to call her everyday and showed up at her house every other day...as far as what he was actually "like" with her? who knows other than one of her complaints about her h was that he was emotionally unavailable..so I suppose my h was to her? I do know that he was someone she could talk to about her illness...they also eventually had conversations about how they could trust eachother...I get the sense from her that he even talked about me (she mentioned some things I did during sep that got to him) Does it really matter what he was like with her? what matters is how he is with me right?

LL

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Also try asking him: what do you think I think of you?
that'd be an interesting conversation.
Does he have trouble apologizing or saying Thank you?
Most things are done indirectly...if they are direct it's on the phone (does that indicate a lack of intimacy or what?

LL

LL,

The reason why I'm curious how he was with OW is that I'm trying to determine if SO is NPD or what.

If he was emotionally available for her though, it might just be because he felt safe enough since both he and she were not actually available (married etc.)

I read that NPD's can't say thankyou or apologize.

Also I read that it would befuddle them if you asked them, what do you think I think of you.

Well, what if you didn't answer the phone when he called in the middle of the day -it's not like you exchange anything necessary. And what if at night you go out...

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LL,

The reason why I'm curious how he was with OW is that I'm trying to determine if SO is NPD or what.

If he was emotionally available for her though, it might just be because he felt safe enough since both he and she were not actually available (married etc.)

lot's of reasons why he would be different with her...some of them meaningfull and some of them just reasons.

I read that NPD's can't say thankyou or apologize.

I don't like to categorize people...I don't find it useful.

Also I read that it would befuddle them if you asked them, what do you think I think of you.

I think it would befuddle most people, no?

Well, what if you didn't answer the phone when he called in the middle of the day -it's not like you exchange anything necessary. And what if at night you go out...

There have been times when I've not bothered to answer the phone and I have gone out at night...not sure what you intend by "..." though?

Hi LL,
Just wanted to stop by and let you know I haven't 'abandoned' you! I've been away last week, and the week before had my parents at my house. But I've been following along as I could.

I'm on the way to the office now, but let's get back to searching for those little 'solutions' - or opportunities to do things differently and get closer to the results you want. Apart from the computer snafu - how are things going? Is H. still coming home earlier? Still calling to check in throughout the day? Are you taking care of yourself and working on your goals as stated a few weeks ago?

Hugs,
-H2H

hey Fran,

I've given up. This m is clearly over...h and I are just going through the motions of playing house for the sake of the kids. I can't do that.

LL

Good Morning, LL

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I've given up. This m is clearly over...

Is this true? Or can we assume that yesterday was not a good day, and today we can start again?

-H2H

Hey LL

So sorry you are feeling this way. It seems to me like H's version of M is not your version. He just seems to see it as some kind of drudgery you've got to get through. Do you know anything about his parents M?

I totally understand why you cannot bear to continue this way. I told my H a long while ago that what he contributed to the M was the same as if we were D. IOW he was just paying the bills and he would have to do that if we got a D. The thing is I think men like your H and mine just don't really KNOW what to do with a wife, it's like it's something they know they're supposed to have like a car or a house but the whole issue of making and maintaining a proper relationship is beyond them. I bet they think of us like a troublesome car or something that they keep having to tinker with to get it to run properly - LOL. It's just annoying that we don't run smoothly, i.e. smile nicely get on with raising kids and keeping house, be ready for sex when THEY want it, not need sex when they don't.

In no way do I want to encourage you to get a D, but you and I have both been on these boards a long time and I haven't seen your sitch get any better LL, ups and downs but not fundamentally better.

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I felt and still feel that the only time in our r that h was able to be honest with me was when he was leaving.

Funny thing is that H is only ever honest with me if I threaten to leave. And he behaves much better for a week or two. I have only ever done that a couple of times and it has been when I really have reached rock bottom and can't stand another second of it.

You have all the great DB advice here, so that even if you do go for D you can handle it in a better way by being on these boards. Maybe you two can just wind up being friends who co-parent your kids and lead new lives with or without a SO. But you can't do that under the same roof. See there I go sounding like I am rooting for you to get a D

I don't mean it that way, but you have to have a different future to the life you have now.

{{{{LL}}}}

Fran

Hi LL,
I don't have much time this morning, but wanted to throw out a few questions & comments.

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H is unwilling to discuss our r, he's taken a stance...he's doing what he needs to do.

I think many of us understand the frustration of an unwilling conversant - I'm sure you'll recall that both Sage & Slowly would have liked their spouses to discuss the a. - the why's and particularly how to recognize the warning signs and not go down that path again. And yet, neither of them have gotten the "talk" they so crave. However, they have managed to sit with their itch for a chat, and chosen to focus on what they CAN do to keep things going in the right direction.

You seem insistent on getting H. to talk about the R. which thus far seems to be a big, fat, cheeseless tunnel. I am wondering if you could put this push to talk on the shelf for a while and start focusing on smaller things - on those oppty's of telling him you're glad he's home for dinner, and perhaps returning that peck on the cheek you get with one a few seconds longer, etc. I know they are very small things, but it sure doesn't look like you're going to get that talk by insisting on it.

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we had another argument monday night. I confronted him with his soiled underwear again...this time trying not to accuse him of any wrong doing but instead with concern that he could have something medically wrong with him as I don't think it's common for grown men to leak seminal fluid in their underwear on a weekly (sometimes twice a week) basis.

Oh dear, LL. C'mon, you didn't expect this sort of confrontation to go well, did you? Any sort of 'confrontation' and accusation or evidence of close scrunity only serves to put him on the defensive! I know it bugs you - but honestly, LL, did this get you any closer to ANY of your goals? It seems to me you are bent on proving to H. that you're no fool - that you are watching him and just waiting to find the 'proof' you need to feel justified in leaving. If you look hard enough, you definitely will find it - rightly or wrongly - you will be able to convince yourself. Stop looking for everything WRONG, and start focusing on what's right....

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frustrated I let him know I don't trust him...his reaction to my concern left me feeling less trustful.

I let him know I'm not happy with the state of the m.

Well, this is great if indeed you want to put him on notice that you are leaving. But if you're here to save your m., then I'd say that telling him this seems to serve only to convince him that there's nothing he can do. It definitely seems that H. does NOT respond well to negative reinforcement, which is why I keep asking you to do small, Positive, things . . .

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I interupt with a discription of one of his only two friends"

Stop interrupting! Give him a chance to express his POV - you've been here long enough to know that we spend a lot of time learning to Listen and to validate - not AGREE with whatver our spouses say, but letting them know we are open to listening and understanding their point of view.

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still getting pecks on the cheeck hello and goodbye.

but they mean nothing he'd kiss my friends or his family the same way...and he still kissed me like that when he "loved me but wasn't in love with me"

I know they are not the kisses you crave. And your frustration is once again coming out LOUD and clear. But sweetie, there's just no pleasing you. There's not a single thing H. does that pleases you. A peck on the cheek is still a gesture in the right direction - you can choose to build on what's good, rather than knock it down as not good enough. I'll admit that I do get that feeling from your posts, that nothing is good enough.

Look, LL, it's ALL in your hands really - you have to decide one way or the other: are you here to try to save your m.? Or are you here to find validation for the decision to leave your m.? I'll say it again, either way I'm willing to support you, to help you clarify your goals and the best way of acheiving them, but after a while, just expressing what's wrong, what's not enough, and not trying to build on what's right, trying small, different things just doesn't cut it. I know you will tell me you've TRIED - but I am talking about NOW, since you've come back to the boards. I haven't seen any 'experiments' or listing of positive words you've expressed to H.

LL, what do you want?
-H2H

what I wanted was some understanding. I can't get what I want out of this r but am not ready to d yet.

Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?

Is it because you have a comfortable roof over your head? No money worries? You are not ready to go out in the big wide world and make your way alone? Yes OK we can all understand that - you have little kids too. You got together with H a long time ago and you were young so really you don't know anything else and you are afraid of what's out there. It's OK to be afraid but you will have to face the fear LL. You transistioned from your original family into your relationship with H without giving yourself a chance to grow up first. I am guessing that is why the R doesn't fit anymore. It served a purpose, it got you out of your childhood home but now you are going to have to face a second transition. Many people do that much earlier than you have LL and work their way through many training relationships before they find the real one.

I am guessing that there is something in your background that didn't allow you to do that LL (did I read in your sitch a long while ago that your childhood was kind of difficult?)

It's an awful realisation to make but you are going to have to face it LL. If you are sticking with this R for now it is for selfish reasons. Realise that LL - you are doing it because you are scared of what is out there and you are cosy in your little cave. You don't even like it when H invades your home - LOL. But that is selfish LL, he is the provider after all, he is out there working hard to make it all happen for you and he is not getting much himself for that is he? It's OK I am not suggesting you should be the one to provide that for him but unless you release him he cannot get it elsewhere either.

If you face up to the fact that that is what you are doing then maybe you can at least ditch the idea that there is any R between you two and treat it solely as a business relationship. Set up separate bedrooms. Don't examine his soiled underwear. Treat him politely and kindly as you would any roommate or guest. Because you ARE getting something out of this LL and he is providing it. I have many times tried to get H to understand that I would prefer us to live slightly more separately than we do now but I am afraid he is the one who is clinging to the idea that we do have an R beyond the business relationship of providing a home for children. I would prefer if I only had to see him when he was in the mood to hang out with us and he didn't even live here the rest of the time - LOL

Look deep inside LL. Why are you still there? Then try to think outside the box of the standard Married R and do something different if you dont want to D.

Fran

Looks like I hit a nerve, and for that I am sorry, LL. That was not my intent. You keep saying that you are looking for understanding, and I feel there are many of us here who DO understand you - and yet you don't feel it. So can you tell me what it would look like to you when you feel you are being understood?

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...it's been clear for a long long time that she does have a r with her h...they do spend time together...they do things together and for each other.

[snip]

I'm not happy when he's home for dinner...it's like having an unexpected dinner guest that changes the dynamic and peacful flow of things. Why should I lie and tell him I'm happy he's home?

This is where I got confused. I understood that you wanted to have a R w/ your H. - that you wanted to spend time together and to have sex more frequently. You point out that Sage has a R w/ her H. and that they spend time together. But then you go on to say that you don't actually like H. to come home to dinner - ie, spend time with you (& the kids) . . . IMHO, to get to the sex part, you actually need to spend time together - that is, good times together, feel good about yourselves and your partner, that your partner appreciates you and wants you. But if you radiate that belief that you actually are NOT happy to see him home, how is H. going to understand that you want to have sex with him? I'm confused...

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so I should just ignore everything and play happy lil housewife and hope that it gets me somewhere?

You can fault me for not having provided an alternative solution to your confronting him with his soiled underwear, but I did NOT say you should "play lil housewife and hope" anything. I was just pointing out that putting someone in the unpleasant position of having to defend himself, particularly with something sensitive such as soiled undies, is not in my opinion helpful IF you are trying to have a good R with them.

So he jerks off - what does that tell you? That he's a normal person, and combined with the fact that you are not having sex, it tells you that there is some barrier(s) to intimacy in your R. My thoughts were along the line of working toward removing some of those barriers, and I thought that lovingly might be a better approach than with a stick. I know for myself that I would feel a whole lot more amorous to someone who told me that they missed me, that touched me lovingly even in passing, than to show me my undies and tell me I need a doctor. Just my 2 cents on that topic....

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His point of view was to tell me what my problem is...more ridiculous excuses and blame throwing from him.

How different is this from you telling him his soiled undies are not normal, he needs to see a doctor, and telling us he's to blame for all that's wrong in your R.? Is there any room to hear what he might consider are some of the problems or barriers to getting to a happier place?

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yup that's me the insatiable biatch that he just should have stayed away from. Man are you ever wrong.

Yikes, that's sure putting words in my mouth! I didn't say you were an insatiable bitch, nor that H. should stay away from you. I said that I have yet to hear about something that pleases you. His kisses are wrong, his timing his wrong, his coming to dinner is wrong . . . I was asking you to tell us something that's right, something good enough for you. I know there must be something in maintaining the position you're in - you are there for a reason and I wondered what that might be.

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people like you think that's me being insatiable...I want more out of life than living like a roomate with my h while I raise the kids and take care of the house.

LL, what do you want?

what I wanted was some understanding. I can't get what I want out of this r but am not ready to d yet.

And what kind of people am I in your view? I don't think you're insatiable; I think you are extremely unhappy and angry. And I don't think that that will help you get what you want in your life. I think wanting more than a roomate is perfectly understandable - I would like the same in my life.

But it seems all my questions are moot - feel free to ignore them. Given your last statement I think that Haphazard's question is an excellent one:

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Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?

What would it look like when you felt ready to D.? The kids would be older? You'd be financially independent or secure? You'd have found another partner? I'm just guessing wildly in the dark - do you know what it would be like to feel ready?

Hope you're feeling better today.
-H2H

hey Fran,

you make some excellent observations...let me see what I can clarify or admit to not knowing.

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Why not? LL you are absolutely not happy in this R and you are no longer at all willing to try to do anymore than you already have to change things (don't worry I do understand that). But why are you not ready to D?

Because I've never been a fan of Divorce when there are children involved but more importantly...though I've reached a point where the effort from me now feels like too much effort and not enough reward I'm still holding onto a shred of hope that pigs might just fly after all.

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You transistioned from your original family into your relationship with H without giving yourself a chance to grow up first.

basically everything you say in the paragraph the above statement is taken from is so true I'm shocked no one else has ever pointed it out. I started dating h when I was 16 years old and though we broke up a few times in the 9 years we were together before marriage he's been it since 16...I did have two bf's before him but given the age I'm not certain they count even if somehow in my mind they do. during the 9 years before m he lived either with his parents or with a friend...I stayed at home....it's more than just transitioning from child to wife but more a problem of while we were dating our time together was limited...he worked a lot and was tired alot (that hasn't changed despite my wishes that it would and his promises that it would) while we weren't married if he was too tired to see me I'd go out with my friends or do my own thing...now that we're married he's tired more and I don't think it's best to spend all my free time with friends just because he's sleeping.

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I am guessing that there is something in your background that didn't allow you to do that LL (did I read in your sitch a long while ago that your childhood was kind of difficult?)

my childhood like my m was not terrible but it was far from ideal. Strangely a large part of why I stayed with h was despite the fact that he had little time for me the other options weren't great...I could easily find a guy who was interested in me physically but not someone to go get an icecream with. Somehow I always ended up back with h...and even more bizarre is the fact that when we would get back together all the things that were lacking were suddenly there (time, affection him actually awake and attentive) but only for a short while...sort of like h knows how to get a girl hooked and then figures he's got her so he doesn't have to work at it anymore.

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It's OK I am not suggesting you should be the one to provide that for him but unless you release him he cannot get it elsewhere either.

it's funny becuase I feel like I'm the one who should be released to get what I want. H seems content with the m just the way it is...has gone as far as saying this is the way it's supposed to be "at this stage".

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If you face up to the fact that that is what you are doing then maybe you can at least ditch the idea that there is any R between you two and treat it solely as a business relationship. Set up separate bedrooms. Don't examine his soiled underwear. Treat him politely and kindly as you would any roommate or guest. Because you ARE getting something out of this LL and he is providing it. I have many times tried to get H to understand that I would prefer us to live slightly more separately than we do now but I am afraid he is the one who is clinging to the idea that we do have an R beyond the business relationship of providing a home for children. I would prefer if I only had to see him when he was in the mood to hang out with us and he didn't even live here the rest of the time -

But I don't feel like it's me that feels that way..I feel like it's him that does. Besides he's clearly said "I'm not going anywhere if you don't like it You leave".

LL

thanks for bearing with me H2H...I do appreciate your help but I don't feel like you do understand where I'm coming from.

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So can you tell me what it would look like to you when you feel you are being understood?

I'm not certain how to explain how things would look if I felt understood other than by saying that I'd feel more understood if I didn't feel like my words were missenterperted and need to clarify them.

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This is where I got confused. I understood that you wanted to have a R w/ your H. - that you wanted to spend time together and to have sex more frequently. You point out that Sage has a R w/ her H. and that they spend time together. But then you go on to say that you don't actually like H. to come home to dinner

it's hard to be comfortable and happy with someone being there when they usually aren't or when there being there is so rare that it causes friction. I eat dinner with the kids every night...I know what to expect and so do they...things run smoothly...h shows up for dinner on a rare occassion and expects different things...the kids get upset...he wont hear my explenation of how things usually go as he's got his own idea...my authority over the kids is gone and I've got to bite my tounge watch the battle. So I'm sorry if I don't particularly enjoy h being home for dinner...not to mention the fact that just becuase he's home at dinner time doesn't mean he's going to sit with us...I then have to struggle with keeping the kids eating instead of running off to see what daddy's doing.

So the point is....it didn't start out that I didn't like when he was around...I wanted him around and he wasn't....I got used to him being absent and now on the occassion that he is it's like a guest showing up.

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So he jerks off - what does that tell you?

that he's probably just as misserable as I am but I admit to pleasuring myself h doesn't...he claims it just happens while he's asleep. FYI things could be good around here...us getting along and there's still no sex so I feel like your barking up the wrong tree with the correlation between our emotional r and our s life. I can recall several mini vaca's without the kids where I invited h to join me in jacuzzi bathtubs, massages etc had fun out to dinner laughed and still got nothing unless I begged for it and I'm done begging for it.

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How different is this from you telling him his soiled undies are not normal, he needs to see a doctor, and telling us he's to blame for all that's wrong in your R.? Is there any room to hear what he might consider are some of the problems or barriers to getting to a happier place?

very different. His undies are an actual thing...it's not a fabrication or idea of mine...his explenation that it happens when he's sleeping does concern me...if it's just happening when he's sleeping he could have something wrong with him. Him then claiming that my problems with our r are because of who my friends are? there's no comparision.

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Yikes, that's sure putting words in my mouth! I didn't say you were an insatiable bitch, nor that H. should stay away from you. I said that I have yet to hear about something that pleases you. His kisses are wrong, his timing his wrong, his coming to dinner is wrong . . . I was asking you to tell us something that's right, something good enough for you. I know there must be something in maintaining the position you're in - you are there for a reason and I wondered what that might be.

You didn't use those words but the sentiment was there. as far as what's maintaning my position? because it's not horrible it's just lonely.

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What would it look like when you felt ready to D.? The kids would be older? You'd be financially independent or secure? You'd have found another partner? I'm just guessing wildly in the dark - do you know what it would be like to feel ready?

maybe to all except that I'd have another parnter...that is my fear...I know I'm vulnerable.

I don't really know what it'd feel like to be ready other than I'll know when I know. It will no longer be a question of am I ready...am I certain I want this...I'll know. I don't want to make any move until I'm certain it's for the best.

LL

Sorry...I may be out of line here...But could your H be a gay? I mean he could be one subconciously but have been brought up sooo strictly that he SWEEPS that deep into his subconcious mind? Also, with regards to him soiling his underwear, men do have the physiological need to release the build-up of sperm. If he doesn't let it out consciously, it will have to come out some other ways... I've got friends/relatives that are from strict upbringing that they denied to themselves that they were gay. They got married, have children and lead a somewhat "normal" life from the outside. You wouldn't have guessed in a million years that they were gay.... And then something happens and the fact is revealed. Sometimes, the person himself is shocked by the revelation/realisation that he is gay.

I may be waaaaayyyyy off...but just a thought..

One Day at a TIME!!!!

Well, LL, I finally understand what you're getting out of this R with your H - cause it's the same I'm getting with my R that is nonexistent.

You are getting to avoid your own issues. You're getting to avoid your own growth.

It would be extremely uncomfortable to "start over" to learn how to date, to do all the things that you never learned to do cause you established this R so early on.

THere's no use complaining any more about H. You're right, you've tried everything and he's not going to change.

I think you're hanging onto the side of a swimming pool with glass shards. The other side has velvety grass, but it would mean, swimming to the other side and you don't know if you would make it.

Let's face it, LL, things couldn't get worse. Jump off the diving board. You're going to do it eventually anyway, better sooner than later, then you'll have more life to live.

I'm not lying to you. It is uncomfortable, especially when SO seems to be so comfortable and happy. I just have to have Faith that God has a plan for me and if I keep doing the brave thing, I will be rewarded.

Everytime it's time for me to work on my writing or get somethign done I find myself thinking about my SO, then I realize I'm just focusing on his faults so as to hide my own.

Hey LL,

I think we're getting somewhere. Sorry about the 2X4 but you needed it - LOL (y'know I do too - it's funny how we can see it clearly when it's someone else's sitch but not our own)

my childhood like my m was not terrible but it was far from ideal.

I could have written that sentence myself LL, it has taken me a very long time to understand the subtle emotional abuse that took place in my childhood. Like yours it was not terrible but we kids were used as pawns between my parents. My mother tried - God bless her - but she came from a terribly abusive background so I guess she just didn't have the wherewithal to deal right with us. My Dad too had problems as a kid and emotionally was (is) like a stone. It's taken me such a long time to realise the damage they did between them. But I think the biggest damage they did was to hang on in there and cling to each other when their R wasn't right. It set us up to put up with crap from partners. My sister - like you - got together with her ex-h at the age of 16 she clung on in there even though the R was bad for nearly 18 years until his continuing R with OW made it impossible for her to stick it any longer. She still believes it was the bad example set by mum that made her carry on through it.

I too stuck with my first real R for 8 years even though friends and family were all telling me he wasn't the right guy for me.

Whitelight said:
You are getting to avoid your own issues. You're getting to avoid your own growth....
Everytime it's time for me to work on my writing or get somethign done I find myself thinking about my SO, then I realize I'm just focusing on his faults so as to hide my own.

That's right LL, that's what I did in my first R and after it was over I realised it - that he was so bad it was easy to be self-righteous. It was easy to avoid looking at myself. And I'm doing it all over again. This time I KNEW going into it that H was not what I wanted but it was like I was making a bargain with myself - that I didn't deserve more and I think again I was allowing myself to feel superior. He didn't deserve that because he is a nice guy. He didn't deserve to have me look down on him

A few months ago I read a book Narcissism by Alexander Lowen. Of course I read it with the intent of diagnosing others - LOL but there was a hell of a lot in there that really woke me up and realised where I had been coming from all these years.

You need to grow LL and you need to learn about yourself. And IMO you need to get away from being with someone you can blame.
my childhood like my m was not terrible but it was far from ideal.
Keep this in mind when you think about getting your kids involved in a D. Do you want them growing up with a less than ideal R as their only example? With a mum that is miserable with her situation and a Dad that thinks this is the way it's supposed to be?

during the 9 years before m he lived either with his parents or with a friend...I stayed at home....it's more than just transitioning from child to wife but more a problem of while we were dating our time together was limited...he worked a lot and was tired alot (that hasn't changed despite my wishes that it would and his promises that it would)

It seems like H never really engaged in this relationship for whatever reason. You accepted that, you accepted less than you deserve because you didn't believe you deserve more.

If you handle a D right, use all your DB skills, your kids will see two adults working through their difficulties and coming to a sensible compromise. I'm guessing they will probably end up seeing as much of their Dad as they do now, in fact they may see more of him because he will be more engaged than he is now. The most bizarre thing has happened to my Dad since Mum died. He is a totally different person to relate to and it is weird to realise the effect of having mum around had on his personality - it cramped his style (though he will still say he loved her). LL you may well be having the same effect on H and you may be robbing your children of seeing who their real Dad can be. You are probably robbing them of seeing the real you too.

take care

Fran

Hello LL,
Just wondering how you're doing this week . . .
-H2H

Hey YoYo,

thanks for stopping by. I don't believe h is gay...I think it's more a case of he grew up in a house where his dad worked and payed the bills, did what he was told and had his own life (took to wine and scratch tickets was and still is kept out of much) also add onto that the fact that he's had me since he was 19 so doesn't understand the value of having a woman to care for him...doesn't realize the need to show appreciation and make her feel special.

Sure he could be gay but it's not the likely answer...I think it's more he's just asexual...sex for him is not something you use to show love sex for him is dirty...I recall mil commenting about son when he was a little baby touching himself...telling him not to...I never told son not too only told him (when he was old enough to understand) to not do it in front of people. h's mom is very prudish...expects people to go to the bathroom if they need to pass gas and heaven forbid you burp in your own home.

LL

hey whitelight,

thanks for your thoughts...trouble is I'm trying to determine whether or not I'm actually holding onto shards of glass or velvety grass and just don't know it. perhaps it's something in between.

I feel like eventually h and I wont be together (I honestly don't see myself growing old with him though I know he'll always be a part of my life as a result of the children) BUT until I'm certain that's not just pain and resentment talking I can't swim anywhere.

LL

hey fran thanks for checkin' in on me,

Quote:

It seems like H never really engaged in this relationship for whatever reason. You accepted that, you accepted less than you deserve because you didn't believe you deserve more.

true but not completely. I accepted less at first because I was always promised the future would be different. Also because it seemed easier to be with h than to risk it all. Anyone who's been in love really in love with their partner understands what I mean by that....the risk you take in not having enough of this or that...of loosing friends or monotary things because your content when you are with that person. I knew that with h I wouldn't be giving up those things...the risk wasn't there...but without the risk there is still a loss...the loss of a true connection. does that make sense?

Quote:

'm guessing they will probably end up seeing as much of their Dad as they do now, in fact they may see more of him because he will be more engaged than he is now.

H was a better dad when he wasn't living here...h was actually better to me when he wasn't here. I think h may have even been better to himself when he wasn't here.

LL

Quote:

Hello LL,
Just wondering how you're doing this week . . .
-H2H

hanging in there H2H, I'm not certain how I feel other than realizing I'm very angry at h and very angry with myself. I feel like I should not have let him come home even though it's what I thought I wanted. Did I only want it because of fear? because I was 29 with two kids under 3 suddenly forced to face divorce? I said when h left that he really wasn't taking anything away from me as he wasn't here to begin with (a lot of people dealing with WAS are missing time spent with their spouse or tradition something...with me and h there was nothing to miss other than another person in the house)

I'm just tired of it...very very tired of it.

LL

Gawd - I would hate to imagine how your MIL looks like....As for your sitch, sorry can't offer you much. But unless something significant happens, don't think your dynamics would change. You could do something major to change the dynamics or you could pray that something would happen. But I suppose the latter is very far-fetched. You really need to seize the bulls by it's horns? I supposed the s@x bit is kinda hard since your H views it as something dirty rather than intimacy between H&W. I'm sorry..really can't offer much, except...Hang in There, Try Try again until you see some positives!!!

One Day at a TIME!!!!

LL,
I think you may start to feel the resentment die down a little when you realize and SAY to yourself that you are staying because you have no desire to be a single mom with little kids and that you are afraid to strike out. Right now, it is just too easy to lay all that at H's feet and continue hating him for the choices you are making. You've accepted (and told all of us) that your M is dead but also said that you can't bear to move on, until you know that there's no chance that connection will resurface. But in the meantime you will not do anything to make that connection resurface because you believe the M to be dead. It is a catch 22 that you are putting yourself into, kwim?

I guess what I'm saying is that owning your own feelings regarding your M may give you some peace of mind. Saying out loud, "I am staying because I do not like the alternatives (single motherhood, etc)" is a whole lot better, mentally, than saying "This M is dead and it's all H's fault". THAT sentiment keeps you stuck in Resentmentville; I think it's time that you headed on outta that town, don't you?

Fwiw, if I were you, I'd be scared poopless. Being with the same man all my life, going from parents' home to his, having little kids...shudder!! I know you are a strong person and I am not suggesting that you aren't, but un-doing your whole life as you've constructed it so far would make ANYbody quake.

Take care,
HP

LL,

seriously, how much NPD have you read up on? The more you write the more it reminds me of something I read on it.

(((LL)))

I'm sorry you are tired out. I understand.
Maybe you should ask yourself if you are really doing the right thing for the kids. What I mean is, if having your H. back is going to make you very tired, very unhappy, etc., is that really the best way for you to feel around the children? I know it is scary to think about being a single mom; my sister is a single mom. Heck, I'm scared about possible D. and I don't even have children caught up in this mess. But you have to remember that long term, your mental well-being is the most important thing. And you don't sound happy that your husband is back.

Sending you a big hug.

noticing trends in a relationship is often a good thing as it helps to keep the r in the direction you want.

Trouble is the trend I notice is that when I'm at my wits end...losing hope that anything is salvageable...thinking h is a loaf and will never change...complaining to myself and others about how horrible things are THAT is when I suddenly see a glimmer of hope...that is when h suddenly starts doing a bit more around the house...attmepting to spend bits of time with me...being more personable.

UGH!

how to have these things that I want occur without me becoming a misserable biatch to get them.

How to have these things blossom into more without presenting the idea that they aren't enough when well..on the whole they aren't enough they are but a glimmer of what could be with a bit more effort.

Do I have to be a biatch to get what I want?

LL

Quote:

Do I have to be a biatch to get what I want?

If you want my honest opinion - NO, you don't. And I would disagree that being a bitch actually HAS gotten you what you want, because you are here; because you are unhappy; because you are nowhere near where you want to be. So while you equate being a bitch with seeing results, I would seriously question that equation and see if it is really true. . .

Just because you get a reaction which is somewhat nearer to what you want, does NOT mean that being a bitch works, that it gets you what you say you want. IMHO, your equation is wrong, LL. Which always leads me back to thinking that you need to look within, to ask yourself some hard questions, and to stop pointing fingers at H.

LL, I'd really recommend two books by Susan Jeffers for you. I re-read them both often because there is so much in there of value - and when I do, I often think of you in parts. They are Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway and Opening Our Hearts to Men . This last one is really more about Love, then about loving or pleasing men.

Happy Holidays, LL. Here's hoping 2006 finds us happy, healthy and on our way...

-H2H

Hey LL,

I'm so sorry you're still struggling like this. You deserve better. Anyway, two thoughts for you...

1) Honest, open anger is much more attractive that sullenness, resentfulness, and passive aggressiveness. Maybe that is why things improve a bit when you consider yourself a biatch. But, then when things improve, you maybe try to swallow your feelings to keep things on an upward trend and that backfires? just a thought...

2) Sorry, but get real. Your H is not asexual. He had an affair. You have kids. He jacks off. He is watching porn with the boys, doing who knows what in the basement, and engaging in some sort of activiting that causes him to stain his shorts during business hours. I'd lay odds that your H has his own little sex world that you simply are not a part of -- whether it is in his head, porn, strippers, phone sex, hookers, or an A. There is no way for you two to be intimate -- emotionally or physicvally -- when he is conducting his sex life in his own little private, no doubt guilt-ridden, world. I thought my XH was asexual too, but the truth was what I am suggesting to you. I bet he loathes himself. He sees sex as dirty because his sex life is dirty and he projects that on a possible sex life between you two rather than dealing with his own demons or even letting you know they exist. Your stories and denial are just a little too familiar. Maybe I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it. Very seriously.

Thanks for all your help way back when... My life is wonderful these days and I don't really post anymore. But, I do check in on a few people from time to time. I actually wanted to email you privately, but I can't find your addy. If you feel like it, you can email me at acorndb@yahoo.com.

Hugs,
Acorn

<< bump >>

Hey LL, how are things? It's been awfully quiet on your end.

-H2H

Quote:

<< bump >>

Hey LL, how are things? It's been awfully quiet on your end.

-H2H

Hey H2H,

things have been the same...mediocre at best. I've not bothered to post because it doens't seem to get me any closer to where I want to be.

Starting to think that this is the best it gets with h.
I could ramble on about how I feel or how things got to this point but then I'd just sound like a WAW...I feel very stuck. I don't like the state of my m but I'm not ready to leave it...I fear nothing will ever change between h and I and I will eventually leave.

it's been 4 months with absolutely no physical intimacy...no cuddling, kissing and certainly no sex whatsoever. of course that's just a symptom...the rest of the r is very roomatish...h seems content with it that way.

LL

Hi LL,

Thought you had gone quiet for a while. I guess sometimes it's easier to deal with the situation by trying not to think about it too much

Quote:

Do I have to be a biatch to get what I want?

Yes LL you do. It's called setting boundaries and it feels like being a biatch because that is something you are not used to doing. It is something I'm not used to either and as a result my H walks all over me, gets exactly what he wants from me. Because he behaves like a pig when I don't do the things he wants so I do the things which mean he won't behave like that. I have been piss poor at doing the same thing to him.

You know how sometimes when you set a boundary for your kids you feel like mean mommy from hyell but you know you have to do it so they learn what they can and can't get away with. It's the same thing. And it's hard and we all hate doing it but I guess we have to. Have you ever noticed how all the real biatches have their men eating out of their hands?

Sit yourself down (I'm going to do this too) and make a short list of the things you will and won't accept from H then whenever he crosses the line bring on the Biatch in all her fury. Doesn't mean you can't be a sweetie-pie when he's nice.

take care

Fran

p.s. I have been hanging out in SSM if you want to come visit.