Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/28/14 09:52 PM
Starting a new thread from: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2498293#Post2498293
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/30/14 06:15 PM
Billman
you have done a lot of good internal work, and that takes guts. And without courage, this journey won't end well.
With courage, it has to. Because regardless of what happens to your marriage, this self examination was mandatory and I think you know this enough for me not to belabor the point.
Just don't forget how you got here and begin a self pity party. That's probably the most likely "bad course" of action you could choose.
If you avoid that - and stay on the road to growth, which requires more discipline than you've had in a long long time, you really will become a much better man. And I think we both know that you will feel more content then.
When your wife brings up the past but then says she doesn't want to talk about it and then does it again, (or even if she only does it once), you CAN SAY
"If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
AND then drop it. It needs to become your mantra for discussions about the past, until if & when she asks you to be more specific. Then, be more specific but only about YOUR PART in this. Not hers.
Don't say what your letter said, b/c that was almost a tit for tat scorecard that would never have helped you repair anything, or get closer to a reconciliation. Indeed it would have negated any "apology" you intended to send and reinforced the correctness of her choice to leave. She has had enough and staying married to you, in her eyes, probably meant never having rewarding sex or intimacy, not having a partner in parenting or financing, and other things...most of which make for a lousy marriage in the eyes of the female.
Change those^^ elements, and you change the dynamics of the relationship, and create a new reality.
Make sense?
you have done a lot of good internal work, and that takes guts. And without courage, this journey won't end well.
With courage, it has to. Because regardless of what happens to your marriage, this self examination was mandatory and I think you know this enough for me not to belabor the point.
Just don't forget how you got here and begin a self pity party. That's probably the most likely "bad course" of action you could choose.
If you avoid that - and stay on the road to growth, which requires more discipline than you've had in a long long time, you really will become a much better man. And I think we both know that you will feel more content then.
When your wife brings up the past but then says she doesn't want to talk about it and then does it again, (or even if she only does it once), you CAN SAY
"If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
AND then drop it. It needs to become your mantra for discussions about the past, until if & when she asks you to be more specific. Then, be more specific but only about YOUR PART in this. Not hers.
Don't say what your letter said, b/c that was almost a tit for tat scorecard that would never have helped you repair anything, or get closer to a reconciliation. Indeed it would have negated any "apology" you intended to send and reinforced the correctness of her choice to leave. She has had enough and staying married to you, in her eyes, probably meant never having rewarding sex or intimacy, not having a partner in parenting or financing, and other things...most of which make for a lousy marriage in the eyes of the female.
Change those^^ elements, and you change the dynamics of the relationship, and create a new reality.
Make sense?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/30/14 09:42 PM
I saw my kids at the park yesterday, and I did not say anything to my W nor did I even acknowledge her - I was not rude, the moment was just never there. I played with them in ways that I always wanted to for an hour and a half, and I enjoyed every moment of it.
A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.
Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.
She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.
I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.
A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.
Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.
She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.
I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/30/14 10:23 PM
Originally Posted By: billman12
I saw my kids at the park yesterday, and I did not say anything to my W nor did I even acknowledge her - I was not rude, the moment was just never there. I played with them in ways that I always wanted to for an hour and a half, and I enjoyed every moment of it.
A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.
Sine the protection order was just lifted (and for the record, I would have gotten a protection order if my h had burned sheets off our bed, too) that means your wife is a woman you just got the legal right to speak to again.
And you chose that "opportunity" NOT to fully apologize but to try and guilt her back home? Wow....I can't believe how well you can look inward, only to revert so quickly back to a place of blaming her...
What did you say to end the talk so fast? God please, not the letter??! That letter was like a feigned attempt at taking responsibility --- but in reality was a thinly veiled manipulation of her, by you, again(!!).
So I guess that's what happened and she saw right through it. That's called backsliding.
My question for you is, did you learn anything?
Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.
Don't blow this. BE KIND TO HER, and have fun with your kids. And that's it...for now.
She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.
I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.
A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.
Sine the protection order was just lifted (and for the record, I would have gotten a protection order if my h had burned sheets off our bed, too) that means your wife is a woman you just got the legal right to speak to again.
And you chose that "opportunity" NOT to fully apologize but to try and guilt her back home? Wow....I can't believe how well you can look inward, only to revert so quickly back to a place of blaming her...
What did you say to end the talk so fast? God please, not the letter??! That letter was like a feigned attempt at taking responsibility --- but in reality was a thinly veiled manipulation of her, by you, again(!!).
So I guess that's what happened and she saw right through it. That's called backsliding.
My question for you is, did you learn anything?
Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.
Don't blow this. BE KIND TO HER, and have fun with your kids. And that's it...for now.
She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.
I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.
What are you concluding from ^^^^ this??
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/30/14 10:37 PM
I did say I was sorry, and I wish it did not have to be this way. I did not include the letter, the letter is for me. I started mentioning how she took my home from me, and that was her change. I realized then that I was using guilt and she stopped it.
My conclusion is that she either.... .... ....it does not matter what she is feeling or thinking. My conclusion is that she has her reasons, and my opinions are to be ignored. I will take my kids tomorrow and have a wonderful night with them. And then I will drop them off, and go back to my room.
My conclusion is that she either.... .... ....it does not matter what she is feeling or thinking. My conclusion is that she has her reasons, and my opinions are to be ignored. I will take my kids tomorrow and have a wonderful night with them. And then I will drop them off, and go back to my room.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 01:44 AM
Originally Posted By: billman12
I did say I was sorry, and I wish it did not have to be this way. I did not include the letter, the letter is for me.
I know you did not literally send it, but my concern is you more or less "read it" to her anyhow, in your wording. And I think that's probably the case to an extent.
I started mentioning how she took my home from me, and that was her change. I realized then that I was using guilt and she stopped it.
My conclusion
I was hoping you'd look at yourself and not at her. Look at yourself to see if something YOU did or said had again triggered a negative reaction from your wife, a reaction not hard for us to understand or anticipate. I mean, of course she stopped you from guilting HER...
You must learn to do something new. It is simple but difficult. (Not complicated, but not easy).
Thus far you have acted based on how you feel, the vast majority of the time.
You do NOT act in accordance with your stated goals here; rather, you react to the emotions you feel. I believe that is a losing approach here. INSTEAD, Act in alignment with the goals, not how you feel.
Meaning, ACT in accordance with the goal of restoring your marriage to a place it probably has never existed; (i.e. a mature, reciprocating marriage of equals,)
and DO NOT act on your emotions.
Your emotions have gotten you where you are, not where you wish you to be.
I was hoping you'd see that your exchange with your wife was wrong b/c YOU made it about your loss, not hers, AND you made yourself out to be a victim, which you are not.
Those are errors you have been making for quite a long time. You DO have choice here. Start exercising choice. Make new, different choices and your life will improve.
Try to see things through her eyes because as long as you are Not able to see her point of view (aka "POV"), you'll be in the dark here.
What confuses ME, is how insightful you can sound, only to so quickly revert to blaming her when you have the chance to do something different and helpful.
In sum, your words below are about her, instead of about YOUR ROLE and the changes YOU wish to make. WE all know you hope she'll give you a chance. WE know you hope that when she sees your changes, feelings in her will reawaken.
(Yet How can they awaken, when you force her to defend herself time & again? How can she believe changes are happening when all she gets from you is anger and your pain??)
You had a great opportunity to demonstrate a calmer, less self centered & more self aware man. Plus, this was right after a month of court ordered no contact.
The day after a judge allows you contact, the first chance you had, you went right to what SHE DID "to you"!!
The words that follow should be about you and the changes YOU WANT TO MAKE. But they're not.
is that she either.... .... ....it does not matter what she is feeling or thinking. My conclusion is that she has her reasons, and my opinions are to be ignored. I will take my kids tomorrow and have a wonderful night with them. And then I will drop them off, and go back to my room.
I know you did not literally send it, but my concern is you more or less "read it" to her anyhow, in your wording. And I think that's probably the case to an extent.
I started mentioning how she took my home from me, and that was her change. I realized then that I was using guilt and she stopped it.
My conclusion
I was hoping you'd look at yourself and not at her. Look at yourself to see if something YOU did or said had again triggered a negative reaction from your wife, a reaction not hard for us to understand or anticipate. I mean, of course she stopped you from guilting HER...
You must learn to do something new. It is simple but difficult. (Not complicated, but not easy).
Thus far you have acted based on how you feel, the vast majority of the time.
You do NOT act in accordance with your stated goals here; rather, you react to the emotions you feel. I believe that is a losing approach here. INSTEAD, Act in alignment with the goals, not how you feel.
Meaning, ACT in accordance with the goal of restoring your marriage to a place it probably has never existed; (i.e. a mature, reciprocating marriage of equals,)
and DO NOT act on your emotions.
Your emotions have gotten you where you are, not where you wish you to be.
I was hoping you'd see that your exchange with your wife was wrong b/c YOU made it about your loss, not hers, AND you made yourself out to be a victim, which you are not.
Those are errors you have been making for quite a long time. You DO have choice here. Start exercising choice. Make new, different choices and your life will improve.
Try to see things through her eyes because as long as you are Not able to see her point of view (aka "POV"), you'll be in the dark here.
What confuses ME, is how insightful you can sound, only to so quickly revert to blaming her when you have the chance to do something different and helpful.
In sum, your words below are about her, instead of about YOUR ROLE and the changes YOU wish to make. WE all know you hope she'll give you a chance. WE know you hope that when she sees your changes, feelings in her will reawaken.
(Yet How can they awaken, when you force her to defend herself time & again? How can she believe changes are happening when all she gets from you is anger and your pain??)
You had a great opportunity to demonstrate a calmer, less self centered & more self aware man. Plus, this was right after a month of court ordered no contact.
The day after a judge allows you contact, the first chance you had, you went right to what SHE DID "to you"!!
The words that follow should be about you and the changes YOU WANT TO MAKE. But they're not.
is that she either.... .... ....it does not matter what she is feeling or thinking. My conclusion is that she has her reasons, and my opinions are to be ignored. I will take my kids tomorrow and have a wonderful night with them. And then I will drop them off, and go back to my room.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 02:25 AM
I understand, and I agree my emotions are still rampant - calmer but still overpowering my knowledge.
I presume then that I wait for her to initiate the next contact, and I am going to print the above of what you wrote there, and read it several times.
Boy I wish I could talk to you on the phone .....
Oh and no i did not read the letter either. I actually did not say anything that was in it.
I presume then that I wait for her to initiate the next contact, and I am going to print the above of what you wrote there, and read it several times.
Boy I wish I could talk to you on the phone .....
Oh and no i did not read the letter either. I actually did not say anything that was in it.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 02:44 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I was hoping you'd see that your exchange with your wife was wrong b/c YOU made it about your loss, not hers, AND you made yourself out to be a victim, which you are not.
When you say her loss. Can you elaborate on this. I think I understand but do not want to over think what you mean. I can see that she is loosing a husband, a live in father to the children and a provider. Is that what you mean. Or did you mean emotional - or both. I don't want to confuse myself trying to figure it out.
Also, she is having an affair - now I understand that she feels justified and not wrong. But doesn't this make me a victim to some extent. Or in the process of fixing this, do I act on a pretense that the affair is nonexistent.
I am not arguing, I just seek clarification.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 03:41 AM
Billman, women with young children do not seek out affairs unless some serious needs are not being met in their lives. It's your job to figure out what those needs were and how you were not providing them. Hint - you don't even have to agree with it. If she feels that way, it's her truth.
Your the leader of the house. Your job is to heal her. You start doing that then we'll talk about the rest of "your" issues.
Your the leader of the house. Your job is to heal her. You start doing that then we'll talk about the rest of "your" issues.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 04:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Jefe
Billman, women with young children do not seek out affairs unless some serious needs are not being met in their lives. It's your job to figure out what those needs were and how you were not providing them. Hint - you don't even have to agree with it. If she feels that way, it's her truth.
Your the leader of the house. Your job is to heal her. You start doing that then we'll talk about the rest of "your" issues.
Your the leader of the house. Your job is to heal her. You start doing that then we'll talk about the rest of "your" issues.
Not sure if you saw in my prev thread, but I wrote a letter for myself. In that letter I admitted to a complete lack of intimacy. I was there for my W emotionally, well as much as I thought I could be at the time, since we have not been able to have a really good conversation yet I cannot be sure of exactly what was lacking (without confirmation or excessively faulting myself).
I had done some reading, well a lot, and from what I am learning about affairs, this one stems from two primary things (based only on my observations, not anything I have heard from her). One is the sexual aspect. I completely understand her neglected sexuality. I always tried to make it about her - but sexually not intimately. I did not see that then, but now - kicked in the head.
The second - she has a fear of being alone (not guessing, i know this). With all the prior emotional relationships she has had during problems between us, it was that fear of being alone mixed with whatever I neglected. This time, I believe, she explored an area of intimacy and sexual exploration that I did not provide, on top of not wanting to be alone. This coupled with one final thing - she lost hope for us, I was not doing my job as husband and father, and my offering her a way out by bringing up the D - she basically heard me say - I am done trying to be that man I said I was, you can move on now.
And since I had never lived to my role, she was convinced that ending the marriage was the only road she could go on - and this relationship was born.
Another thing I read is that this affair is merely a distraction from the feelings that she had not yet let go of for me. Since she was not ready to WAW, I opened the door and she was not quite "already done". This OM became the way out of the emotions.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 01:02 PM
I remember when we first met. I was sweet and charming. I was romantic, and smiled all the time when I was with her. I made dinner for her and sat next to her with the intention of being close, not for hopes of sex. I would hug her and tell her I loved her for no reason. I would kiss her forehead and say have a good day at work. I would hold her hand when we sat together and allow myself to be uncomfortable just so she could relax without my moving.
These are some of the things I stopped doing. These are some of the things that allowed her to fall in love with me. How in the world can I show her that I am still that man that wants to do these things, when they would all be unwelcome. Aside from being sweet and charming - could this be part of the key.
These are some of the things I stopped doing. These are some of the things that allowed her to fall in love with me. How in the world can I show her that I am still that man that wants to do these things, when they would all be unwelcome. Aside from being sweet and charming - could this be part of the key.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 02:03 PM
got a text this morning:
Her:
Abryella has rehearsals for her concert till 430 it maybe a little after 5 so I can feed them dinner and get them ready for you
Me:
I am sorry you are unable to enjoy the night with them. Just text me when they are ready
Her:
I am sorry too but I am sure they will enjoy their time with you and I already explained to them I would not be going and they understand
Her:
I would appreciate if you no longer regard about me and how sorry you are thank you
I did not reply.
Her:
Abryella has rehearsals for her concert till 430 it maybe a little after 5 so I can feed them dinner and get them ready for you
Me:
I am sorry you are unable to enjoy the night with them. Just text me when they are ready
Her:
I am sorry too but I am sure they will enjoy their time with you and I already explained to them I would not be going and they understand
Her:
I would appreciate if you no longer regard about me and how sorry you are thank you
I did not reply.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 04:33 PM
I have held on too tighttly for far too long. All this time I have been thinking and dreaming of ways to win her back, to convince her that life with me would be better. But this is only my perception, true or not. Her perception is different. She does not see a future with the man she waited to leave.
Instead of accepting and becoming the man I am, I have been trying to force it, and by doing so, I am only pushing her away. I am not respecting her decision or boundaries, and only convincing her that I am a selfish controlling person, that nothing is changing. I am not proving love, I am proving her right.
I need to let go, and live for today and tomorrow. I need to love my children and show them the love that I held back from them. I need to be with them when they are with me. I need to accept that her decision to be apart is for the right reasons - whether I agree or not.
I cannot prove I am worthy, or that I love her, by being a broken, pathetic, groveling, manipulative, sap.
I must accept that her belief is that it is over. I must let go, save hop - in a dark corner of my heart. I must show her love and compassion, subtly and only when the time is right.
Instead of being afraid of what tomorrow will bring, I should bask in what today offers.
Instead of accepting and becoming the man I am, I have been trying to force it, and by doing so, I am only pushing her away. I am not respecting her decision or boundaries, and only convincing her that I am a selfish controlling person, that nothing is changing. I am not proving love, I am proving her right.
I need to let go, and live for today and tomorrow. I need to love my children and show them the love that I held back from them. I need to be with them when they are with me. I need to accept that her decision to be apart is for the right reasons - whether I agree or not.
I cannot prove I am worthy, or that I love her, by being a broken, pathetic, groveling, manipulative, sap.
I must accept that her belief is that it is over. I must let go, save hop - in a dark corner of my heart. I must show her love and compassion, subtly and only when the time is right.
Instead of being afraid of what tomorrow will bring, I should bask in what today offers.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 05:02 PM
Originally Posted By: billman12
I have held on too tighttly for far too long. All this time I have been thinking and dreaming of ways to win her back, to convince her that life with me would be better. But this is only my perception, true or not. Her perception is different. She does not see a future with the man she waited to leave.
When you dream of getting her back, it CAN seem as if you simply want to "win" her back from the competition, not so much that you regret the loss of her company and want HER back...to a lot of women who've said they need "X & Y" from their h's but don't get it, and then see alleged "changes" only after an OM comes into the picture, the fear is that it's a contest, not a genuine awakening of deep love and remorse for not showing it. That's my observation.
Instead of accepting and becoming the man I am, I have been trying to force it, and by doing so, I am only pushing her away. I am not respecting her decision or boundaries, and only convincing her that I am a selfish controlling person, that nothing is changing. I am not proving love, I am proving her right.
Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?
I need to let go, and live for today and tomorrow. I need to love my children and show them the love that I held back from them. I need to be with them when they are with me. I need to accept that her decision to be apart is for the right reasons - whether I agree or not.
I cannot prove I am worthy, or that I love her, by being a broken, pathetic, groveling, manipulative, sap.
All this ^^^ is true....so read this ^^ again when you want to talk about how sad and hurt YOU are.
I must accept that her belief is that it is over. I must let go, save hop - in a dark corner of my heart. I must show her love and compassion, subtly and only when the time is right.
Not sure what that means except I assume you mean, "Don't pursue" her, however be warm and loving when you are around her or interacting....which I'd agree with. Is that what you meant or is there some other meaning to the words "subtly and only when the time is right"?
Instead of being afraid of what tomorrow will bring, I should bask in what today offers.
When you dream of getting her back, it CAN seem as if you simply want to "win" her back from the competition, not so much that you regret the loss of her company and want HER back...to a lot of women who've said they need "X & Y" from their h's but don't get it, and then see alleged "changes" only after an OM comes into the picture, the fear is that it's a contest, not a genuine awakening of deep love and remorse for not showing it. That's my observation.
Instead of accepting and becoming the man I am, I have been trying to force it, and by doing so, I am only pushing her away. I am not respecting her decision or boundaries, and only convincing her that I am a selfish controlling person, that nothing is changing. I am not proving love, I am proving her right.
Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?
I need to let go, and live for today and tomorrow. I need to love my children and show them the love that I held back from them. I need to be with them when they are with me. I need to accept that her decision to be apart is for the right reasons - whether I agree or not.
I cannot prove I am worthy, or that I love her, by being a broken, pathetic, groveling, manipulative, sap.
All this ^^^ is true....so read this ^^ again when you want to talk about how sad and hurt YOU are.
I must accept that her belief is that it is over. I must let go, save hop - in a dark corner of my heart. I must show her love and compassion, subtly and only when the time is right.
Not sure what that means except I assume you mean, "Don't pursue" her, however be warm and loving when you are around her or interacting....which I'd agree with. Is that what you meant or is there some other meaning to the words "subtly and only when the time is right"?
Instead of being afraid of what tomorrow will bring, I should bask in what today offers.
Nice quote^^^....
Maybe try to see tomorrow as another opportunity to be the man you were meant to become. She'll hear of it, and she'll know of it, without a word from you to her. And even if OM is the best man in the universe, we can hope and believe this will occur to her:
"Is the father of my children NOW the man I always wanted him to be? Is he lovingly interacting with our children and becoming the part of their lives I always valued/wished for?? IF SO, maybe I need to think about letting him back into my heart - b/c it sure would be easier than starting all over with OM, and still having my h in the picture anyhow..."
VERSUS
"I'm so glad to be out of that horrible marriage. H never met my needs and even now he's all about HIS needs and HIS loss, as if I haven't lost a thing by leaving him or being married to him all those UN fun years...and he hasn't changed so it's a good thing I got out while I could! Thank God for OM, who "gets" me and loves me just as I am, and isn't weird with the kids and is actively involved in life. We are setting a much better example of a healthy R between a man and a woman for my kids..."
I really believe you have choices to make and that you CAN influence things by your own behavior, if there are genuine changes. And chances are, the OM is not the best man in the universe. Kids want their parents to be great. And when they are not great parents, kids are incredibly forgiving when they see effort from the parent...
I highly recommend that you find some positive role models, watch youtube videos from TED Talks and any other resource so that it comes more naturally to you.
And read that "regret" letter a few more times to yourself so you don't go back to blaming her or whining about how you are suffering. Almost all (or all) of this was of your own making in my opinion.
I see that as empowering to YOU b/c now, YOU can change that and YOU can be the man your wife fell in love with and the father you want to be.
Btw, how was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? IF you saw it, what did it look like?
(( It just occurred to me that our children are probably the best examples of how to forgive, that exists. They always hope we won't let them down and when we try not to let them down, they cling to the efforts they see b/c they want to believe we love them, and we do. Maybe they are the ones we need to look to, when it comes to forgiving ourselves or others...))
And PS, if you do reconcile, you both will need to
1) forgive, and
2) let go of the past,
and
3) go "from this day forward", like the vows say.
You can begin doing this^^ without her - and indeed she never needs to know that you "forgive" her for whatever.
It's about you letting go of your past hurts and the scorecard, and just working on who you are now, and who you want to be tomorrow.
But in your case it is probably a good idea to flesh out what that looks like. Details, images and examples for you to follow b/c you seem to like that.
Correct? So where could you find some?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 05:23 PM
however be warm and loving when you are around her or interacting....which I'd agree with. Is that what you meant
^^exactly this. Not pursue, but sweet and charming at the appropriate moments.
Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?
I have come to a conclusion that my mistake is Facebook. I am constantly putting "my day" up there. I am not throwing it in her face, but after thinking about - that is all I have done. I have logged out of FB, and plan to stay out. I will only talk to her if she calls me for the children, or if I want to see them.
Btw, how was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? IF you saw it, what did it look like?
I am not sure. The man I am does not make sense due to what I remember of my childhood. I come from a broken home, my father was lazy, my mother divorced 4 times. We never lived in the same home for too long. I am not sure where my conceptual model of life comes from.
I think I found my other issue. My fear. I am afraid that she will not see my changes. I am afraid that she does not care, or have any feelings for me at all. I am afraid that she truly wants to be done and rid of me in the capacity I was. As of yet I have no real 'closure. Tomorrow scares me.
I know these are things I do not need to know right now, and some day I may find those answers. But I have to find strength to accept that today is today, and if destiny exists, or we are meant to be - then she will see/find what she wants to, when she wants to.
What I want more than anything is to restore my marriage to who I know the greatest woman in the world. And I have to face my fear. I have to walk this path with blind faith, without knowledge of what it will mean to her. I am terrified.
^^exactly this. Not pursue, but sweet and charming at the appropriate moments.
Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?
I have come to a conclusion that my mistake is Facebook. I am constantly putting "my day" up there. I am not throwing it in her face, but after thinking about - that is all I have done. I have logged out of FB, and plan to stay out. I will only talk to her if she calls me for the children, or if I want to see them.
Btw, how was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? IF you saw it, what did it look like?
I am not sure. The man I am does not make sense due to what I remember of my childhood. I come from a broken home, my father was lazy, my mother divorced 4 times. We never lived in the same home for too long. I am not sure where my conceptual model of life comes from.
I think I found my other issue. My fear. I am afraid that she will not see my changes. I am afraid that she does not care, or have any feelings for me at all. I am afraid that she truly wants to be done and rid of me in the capacity I was. As of yet I have no real 'closure. Tomorrow scares me.
I know these are things I do not need to know right now, and some day I may find those answers. But I have to find strength to accept that today is today, and if destiny exists, or we are meant to be - then she will see/find what she wants to, when she wants to.
What I want more than anything is to restore my marriage to who I know the greatest woman in the world. And I have to face my fear. I have to walk this path with blind faith, without knowledge of what it will mean to her. I am terrified.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 07:28 PM
I understand your fear. Try to operate in faith and not in fear.
Indeed I read once that "when we operate in fear we are Not operating in faith".
If you are a believer and I think you said you are, then keep ^^ this in mind.
And go forward with the peaceful knowledge that at the very least, you'll be a much better father and a more involved participant in life.
You are NOT destined to be your father. Break the cycle and help your children do the same.
Good luck. We are all rooting for you.
Indeed I read once that "when we operate in fear we are Not operating in faith".
If you are a believer and I think you said you are, then keep ^^ this in mind.
And go forward with the peaceful knowledge that at the very least, you'll be a much better father and a more involved participant in life.
You are NOT destined to be your father. Break the cycle and help your children do the same.
Good luck. We are all rooting for you.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 10/31/14 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
I understand your fear. Try to operate in faith and not in fear.
Good luck. We are all rooting for you.
Good luck. We are all rooting for you.
I could not ask for anything more. I thank you all, especially you 25.
I remember when we first met, I was not afraid then. I was a happy person then. I knew what I wanted and did not let life hold me back. Its okay to be afraid. But I will not let it stop me from walking into the dark. I will step carefully but with all the courage I can muster.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/01/14 04:12 AM
SO I had a wonderful 3 hours taking my children trick or treating. I did not mope, prod, spy, or even allow my oldest to talk about mommy. When I say allow, i simply said we don't need to talk about that, and swiftly brought up something else. I also did not say or imply that she should tell mommy anything about the evening. I just went with them and listened and enjoyed the time spent.
But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.
Should my daughter know this? a boyfriend, love, - after 2 months of my not being in the home? Should i say anything about this at all to anyone? I don't think my children should have any knowledge of this at all, and my 9 year old seems to know something. I am...appalled.
But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.
Should my daughter know this? a boyfriend, love, - after 2 months of my not being in the home? Should i say anything about this at all to anyone? I don't think my children should have any knowledge of this at all, and my 9 year old seems to know something. I am...appalled.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/01/14 04:37 AM
Originally Posted By: billman12
SO I had a wonderful 3 hours taking my children trick or treating. I did not mope, prod, spy, or even allow my oldest to talk about mommy. When I say allow, i simply said we don't need to talk about that, and swiftly brought up something else. I also did not say or imply that she should tell mommy anything about the evening. I just went with them and listened and enjoyed the time spent.
Sounds like great work. Well done.
But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.
Again, good job. Well done.
Should my daughter know this? a boyfriend, love, - after 2 months of my not being in the home? Should i say anything about this at all to anyone? I don't think my children should have any knowledge of this at all, and my 9 year old seems to know something. I am...appalled.
Sounds like great work. Well done.
But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.
Again, good job. Well done.
Should my daughter know this? a boyfriend, love, - after 2 months of my not being in the home? Should i say anything about this at all to anyone? I don't think my children should have any knowledge of this at all, and my 9 year old seems to know something. I am...appalled.
Don't be so "appalled". Really. Lose the righteousness b/c it does NOT help you or anyone else. Make sure you learn to distinguish between your pride and a true boundary.
This is not within your control. In my head I reviewed your options and there are none that are worth the downside, that I can think of.
If you can think of a way to "Show your outrage" that does not come off as incredibly selfish, self serving and probably hypocritical, so be it.
But do not dismiss the chance your wife will lash out at you daring to critique her at all. She could say what a lousy father you have been for 99% of their lives only to NOW decide you give a crap and that you are "appalled" will probably appall HER...
Tread lightly when it comes to things like this.
And stay the course. From my POV, the OM is a distraction to you and possibly to her as well.
Don't dwell on him. Like the book says, he's not the issue or the cause, merely a symptom. BE the better choice.
There would be no boyfriend or OM - and your d would never have heard of him, if you and your wife had a strong marriage. This is not all on your wife anyway.
Besides, you think burning the sheets did not generate a single question of your wife? Maybe she told the kids about OM b/c of your own choices...again I say there is no way to confront or control this, that lacks a huge downside. Too huge.
Stay the course, keep the focus on YOU and only you.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/01/14 04:43 AM
I understand. I think I was more upset at the potential damage to my children understanding of life. What it means to have another person so soon after a situation - the psychological effects of this in the future. I think it could be very bad..but again. I do NOT want to jeopardize any chances I may have in the future - so I will leave it.
And I agree, I believe he is a distraction - for what little I do know of him, I do not believe he would be a "good fit" for her, for reasons not related to my disdain for him.
I will leave it alone, for the sake of hope, and not wanting to have the downside. Ty for the eye opener.
And I agree, I believe he is a distraction - for what little I do know of him, I do not believe he would be a "good fit" for her, for reasons not related to my disdain for him.
I will leave it alone, for the sake of hope, and not wanting to have the downside. Ty for the eye opener.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/01/14 05:24 AM
A distraction - this was an Exit Affair. At least now I understand it better.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/01/14 11:02 PM
curious, when does the crying stop.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 01:18 AM
Hey 25, i know you have a life, but is there any way we can talk out of this forum, just for a bit. I have a few questions that I do't want to ask here.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 01:49 AM
it's very frowned upon. Try asking Jack3 beans for an alternate way to reach me IF he is still around
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 05:34 PM
Where do I find the strength to hold on. The will to endure what hurts more than any pain. i sit here with knowledge and understanding that I have never known before. Yet my heart cannot fathom the wrongdoings that both I an my wife have caused each other. While I accept that my ways hardened her heart and gave her a reason to give up, I do not take blame for her actions.
I try to accept a future where we are together, and a future where we are not. The one where we are not is painful to accept, but it is understood. The one where we are is blissful, and terrifying. There will be so much to accept and get over, so much to endure and overcome.
I cannot have an absolute of whether she will find her heart with me again. I have no way to know when the affair will end, or how long it will take her to reason whether we can begin anew. I can accept this chance, but having hope at the same time I know the truth of what is happening with her and that man.
My love for her is unconditional, I made a vow of for better or worse. This is by far the worst it could be. I must be strong enough to stand by her through this time she is struggling to find whatever it is she is looking for. But to stand by while watching her destroy everything She once held dear, is not an easy burden to bear.
There are some truths I understand. I know that there is a very high chance her affair will end. I know that some day, even if years she will have regrets, and I high chance our loss will be one of them. Her irrationality will clear up in time, and she will begin to understand more clearly.
I find myself fighting with how long I can "wait" for these things to happen. I tell myself to let go and live and allow life to continue. Then I become sad again. I pick myself up and try to accept her decision, to accept that she believes she is doing what she must; and yet I posses the knowledge that she is hurting herself - and I cannot save her.
I do not know what she is thinking, I do not understand what she feels. I cannot understand her justifications or how she can rationalize what she is doing. I may never understand why she cannot see her children future as this event unfolds. But I also understand that these are things I do not need to know. My knowledge of them would change nothing, nor would that knowledge help me heal from my own pain.
It is okay to be afraid, and I will not let that fear control me. A small part of me feels like I want to fight with fire, to retaliate by any means. Then I remember that I love her, and try to accept that she is struggling with pain as well. Does she know she is in pain I wonder.
I know to let go, to live life and find a happy place. My heart misses her and wants to protect her, to save her.This internal battle at times feels like it will destroy me. I am broken, but only my heart, not my soul. I do not want to wait, I want it to stop; patience while watching what disgusts me feels wrong. But when I gather everything that is, and was, I remember that I choose to love her. I accept my choice and must live by it, for better .... or worse.
I try to accept a future where we are together, and a future where we are not. The one where we are not is painful to accept, but it is understood. The one where we are is blissful, and terrifying. There will be so much to accept and get over, so much to endure and overcome.
I cannot have an absolute of whether she will find her heart with me again. I have no way to know when the affair will end, or how long it will take her to reason whether we can begin anew. I can accept this chance, but having hope at the same time I know the truth of what is happening with her and that man.
My love for her is unconditional, I made a vow of for better or worse. This is by far the worst it could be. I must be strong enough to stand by her through this time she is struggling to find whatever it is she is looking for. But to stand by while watching her destroy everything She once held dear, is not an easy burden to bear.
There are some truths I understand. I know that there is a very high chance her affair will end. I know that some day, even if years she will have regrets, and I high chance our loss will be one of them. Her irrationality will clear up in time, and she will begin to understand more clearly.
I find myself fighting with how long I can "wait" for these things to happen. I tell myself to let go and live and allow life to continue. Then I become sad again. I pick myself up and try to accept her decision, to accept that she believes she is doing what she must; and yet I posses the knowledge that she is hurting herself - and I cannot save her.
I do not know what she is thinking, I do not understand what she feels. I cannot understand her justifications or how she can rationalize what she is doing. I may never understand why she cannot see her children future as this event unfolds. But I also understand that these are things I do not need to know. My knowledge of them would change nothing, nor would that knowledge help me heal from my own pain.
It is okay to be afraid, and I will not let that fear control me. A small part of me feels like I want to fight with fire, to retaliate by any means. Then I remember that I love her, and try to accept that she is struggling with pain as well. Does she know she is in pain I wonder.
I know to let go, to live life and find a happy place. My heart misses her and wants to protect her, to save her.This internal battle at times feels like it will destroy me. I am broken, but only my heart, not my soul. I do not want to wait, I want it to stop; patience while watching what disgusts me feels wrong. But when I gather everything that is, and was, I remember that I choose to love her. I accept my choice and must live by it, for better .... or worse.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 07:06 PM
Quote:
My love for her is unconditional,
What is your definition of unconditional love?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
What is your definition of unconditional love?
There is no limit. I choose to love her regardless of .. anything. A parent loves their child unconditionally. You never give up on that person. You will stand by them without allowing your own feelings get in the way. There is no limit. There are no conditions.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 07:45 PM
So then you can love her just as much while she's living with this OM as you could if she was with you?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 07:47 PM
Billman
I have to say that you are a bit of an amnesiac. How much have You really changed?
You wrote this 3 years ago....
We tried to repair what we could when I finally came to my senses. Things got slightly better and there was no confirmation that infidelity occurred. The OW never said anything, but was pregnant, claimed she was raped at a party. (this all sounds worse than it is). 2 years later before our youngest was conceived, I had to to a blood test so the OW could get support and medical for her child. He was mine. me and the wife were in shock. I didn't know it happened and her worst fear came true. We had another child born 03/13/10, I treated her like a queen while she was pregnant, more on that later. We moved from NY to VA 3 1/2 years ago. To get away from the mess of that affair I had. It didn't work.
I began, when we got here, to play an online game World of Warcraft...all the way up to the day of the D. 3 1/2 years later, I played 1 FULL year of play time within that 3 1/2 years. I was neglectful around the house, inattentive to her and the children and was obsessed with the game. All on top of being controlling.
NOW, after the bomb, I was in a crisis center for 5 days and found I have generalized anxiety disorder. My fears, even of imaginary things give me false perspectives on whats real. I have a fear of being alone, and even while I or she worked (basically any time we weren't together) I had suspicions. 90% of the time I could be ok with that, but sometimes my lack of apparent trust caused issues and the illusion of control. I never intended that to happen...hindsight being 20/20.
In short, I was controlling and neglectful. The control was a direct result from my fear of her leaving or being alone. I basically caged her like a bird, unknowingly. The neglect was mostly from the addiction to the Wow game. She decided to leave. If I had NOT played that game, we would not be here.
We have talked quite a bit today, and she just wants to see, mostly, me getting better with the GAD (disorder) and get a job, make money, and keep in constant contact with our children. Have patience she says. I believe and trust and hope that we can get back together, and I think my GAD fear is clouding my ability to hold steadfast with that trust.
GAD and patience without knowledge is a terrible combination...I wonder if I am actually afraid of nothing, but if that were the case, then why wouldn't she just ask me to stay. She must be afraid that I cannot change.
Billman, I find your long post today to be remarkably lacking in self awareness and that you STILL blame HER for your pain and "her wrongs". I feel as if I have to tell you something painful just so you can snap out of all this...and it's this:
Most women would have given up on you long ago.
Frankly, I think you got yourself here. And it's been 3 years, plus the stuff leading up to all that!...
ONLY YOU CAN GET YOUR LIFE TO IMPROVE, NOT HER.
What's your plan now? Stay on that path and don't wallow. When you find yourself wallowing, which you are doing, put a STOP SIGN in your mind and stop doing it.
The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss, are big chunks of how you got here.
You want to be a man only a fool would leave.
What are you DOING to become that man?
The sooner you become him, the more likely you can reconcile, but IF I can't see it, how can she?
I have to say that you are a bit of an amnesiac. How much have You really changed?
You wrote this 3 years ago....
We tried to repair what we could when I finally came to my senses. Things got slightly better and there was no confirmation that infidelity occurred. The OW never said anything, but was pregnant, claimed she was raped at a party. (this all sounds worse than it is). 2 years later before our youngest was conceived, I had to to a blood test so the OW could get support and medical for her child. He was mine. me and the wife were in shock. I didn't know it happened and her worst fear came true. We had another child born 03/13/10, I treated her like a queen while she was pregnant, more on that later. We moved from NY to VA 3 1/2 years ago. To get away from the mess of that affair I had. It didn't work.
I began, when we got here, to play an online game World of Warcraft...all the way up to the day of the D. 3 1/2 years later, I played 1 FULL year of play time within that 3 1/2 years. I was neglectful around the house, inattentive to her and the children and was obsessed with the game. All on top of being controlling.
NOW, after the bomb, I was in a crisis center for 5 days and found I have generalized anxiety disorder. My fears, even of imaginary things give me false perspectives on whats real. I have a fear of being alone, and even while I or she worked (basically any time we weren't together) I had suspicions. 90% of the time I could be ok with that, but sometimes my lack of apparent trust caused issues and the illusion of control. I never intended that to happen...hindsight being 20/20.
In short, I was controlling and neglectful. The control was a direct result from my fear of her leaving or being alone. I basically caged her like a bird, unknowingly. The neglect was mostly from the addiction to the Wow game. She decided to leave. If I had NOT played that game, we would not be here.
We have talked quite a bit today, and she just wants to see, mostly, me getting better with the GAD (disorder) and get a job, make money, and keep in constant contact with our children. Have patience she says. I believe and trust and hope that we can get back together, and I think my GAD fear is clouding my ability to hold steadfast with that trust.
GAD and patience without knowledge is a terrible combination...I wonder if I am actually afraid of nothing, but if that were the case, then why wouldn't she just ask me to stay. She must be afraid that I cannot change.
Billman, I find your long post today to be remarkably lacking in self awareness and that you STILL blame HER for your pain and "her wrongs". I feel as if I have to tell you something painful just so you can snap out of all this...and it's this:
Most women would have given up on you long ago.
Frankly, I think you got yourself here. And it's been 3 years, plus the stuff leading up to all that!...
ONLY YOU CAN GET YOUR LIFE TO IMPROVE, NOT HER.
What's your plan now? Stay on that path and don't wallow. When you find yourself wallowing, which you are doing, put a STOP SIGN in your mind and stop doing it.
The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss, are big chunks of how you got here.
You want to be a man only a fool would leave.
What are you DOING to become that man?
The sooner you become him, the more likely you can reconcile, but IF I can't see it, how can she?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: billman12
curious, when does the crying stop.
When You decide to stop it. Seriously.
Where the head goes, the heart will follow (if we let it).
Unfortunately you seem to be a slave to your emotions, even while admitting you don't have emotional stability.
How is your therapy and treatment for the anxiety and moodiness going?
How are you different today, than you were 3 years ago?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 08:17 PM
3 1/2 years ago, I gained some insight, but it was only 2 months before we got back together. Life did not hit me as hard then as I thought it did. I claimed I was better, but at the time i was still wallowing in self pity, nothing really changed.
When she took me back, things were new again-ish. and it made everything feel good. For the first year or so everything was so good we did nothing to fix the original issues that caused the break. However there was one difference. I gave up control, all of it. She was in control, I did not argue with her decision, and always let her have the last word.
Looking at that now - there was a power dynamic at play and her expectations became higher and higher. I was not able to reach them, and I believe I eventually gave up (unconsciously I believe).
I know I am wallowing, but I am doing it on here, and not to her - I am crying out of sight. I have not posted on Facebook in near a week. I have not texted her in any way, and my responses are simple. My emotions were controlling me completely until about a week ago.
I prayed for peace, and the pain in my chest left the next day. I prayed for strength, and my mind was clearer to know what I needed to do.
Frankly, I understand what you say "The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss" - I agree that this needs to stop. But at what point does it matter that I am to lose everything that I held dear. Yes I am losing a lot, but I am gaining knowledge - there is nothing greater. I am not asking for pity, deserved or not. I understand that my own actions, or lack of, put me where I am - but as I have said - it was not a good marriage, but it was by far not bad - but again my perspective only.
She has lost a lot too - when does that become apparent to her. I know I cannot point out what she is losing. I know what she is losing.
"You want to be a man only a fool would leave. What are you DOING to become that man?"
I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her - this she already knows. I am working my butt off at work, and am in line for a promotion and a pay raise - to a position that I will enjoy at work, so I will be happy to work and provide. I am talking to my children in a way that i have never done before because I missed out on this, I have much to make up for. Their smiles make me happier than I thought they would. When we were out on Halloween, I got to see them in a way I never had before - it may very well have been the first time I was with them without the W outside the home.
I do not live in the home. I have no friends or family that we have mutual contact with. I have no vehicle, so I do not go anywhere often, or very far. The Only changes she will see, will be through our children. I WILL NOT use them as a tool, but feel at a disadvantage that she will be blind to these changes for a long while.
I have always been this man, I was just selfish and lazy. Looking back I had no reason to be selfish or lazy, so I have abandoned both of those qualities. But again, these changes are for me and the future of my children; yet still I do them knowing she may never notice.
My crying and wallowing I do on here because I like to express what I feel. I like to talk and listen. This is what inspires me to learn more. I do not post on here words of eloquence looking for remorse. No different than an author who writes on his own life events. I like words and what they can express, but I enjoy more the replies, and the wisdom they assist me in obtaining.
Looking back I agree, most women might have left me - but this is where I have said before, my perspective is not entirely incorrect. I am and always was charming ans sweet, smart and caring - I was just inconsistent. I did love her, and showed it to her, it just was not enough to overcome the rest. She waited for me to change, I did not.
I am different today than 3 years ago - Then at the first moment she wanted me back I got a plane the next day and went home. I did not fully understand my flaws, nor did I work on the ones I did. She had not realized Any of hers, and had no time to think of anything.
The OM she was seeing emotionally then, had moved 3 hours away and was not able to be with her. The moment she realized that she called me and asked me to come home. She was still on control and I ran back without fixing even 1 issue. We were happy because we were both pretending the past was over - we were Both wrong.
When she took me back, things were new again-ish. and it made everything feel good. For the first year or so everything was so good we did nothing to fix the original issues that caused the break. However there was one difference. I gave up control, all of it. She was in control, I did not argue with her decision, and always let her have the last word.
Looking at that now - there was a power dynamic at play and her expectations became higher and higher. I was not able to reach them, and I believe I eventually gave up (unconsciously I believe).
I know I am wallowing, but I am doing it on here, and not to her - I am crying out of sight. I have not posted on Facebook in near a week. I have not texted her in any way, and my responses are simple. My emotions were controlling me completely until about a week ago.
I prayed for peace, and the pain in my chest left the next day. I prayed for strength, and my mind was clearer to know what I needed to do.
Frankly, I understand what you say "The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss" - I agree that this needs to stop. But at what point does it matter that I am to lose everything that I held dear. Yes I am losing a lot, but I am gaining knowledge - there is nothing greater. I am not asking for pity, deserved or not. I understand that my own actions, or lack of, put me where I am - but as I have said - it was not a good marriage, but it was by far not bad - but again my perspective only.
She has lost a lot too - when does that become apparent to her. I know I cannot point out what she is losing. I know what she is losing.
"You want to be a man only a fool would leave. What are you DOING to become that man?"
I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her - this she already knows. I am working my butt off at work, and am in line for a promotion and a pay raise - to a position that I will enjoy at work, so I will be happy to work and provide. I am talking to my children in a way that i have never done before because I missed out on this, I have much to make up for. Their smiles make me happier than I thought they would. When we were out on Halloween, I got to see them in a way I never had before - it may very well have been the first time I was with them without the W outside the home.
I do not live in the home. I have no friends or family that we have mutual contact with. I have no vehicle, so I do not go anywhere often, or very far. The Only changes she will see, will be through our children. I WILL NOT use them as a tool, but feel at a disadvantage that she will be blind to these changes for a long while.
I have always been this man, I was just selfish and lazy. Looking back I had no reason to be selfish or lazy, so I have abandoned both of those qualities. But again, these changes are for me and the future of my children; yet still I do them knowing she may never notice.
My crying and wallowing I do on here because I like to express what I feel. I like to talk and listen. This is what inspires me to learn more. I do not post on here words of eloquence looking for remorse. No different than an author who writes on his own life events. I like words and what they can express, but I enjoy more the replies, and the wisdom they assist me in obtaining.
Looking back I agree, most women might have left me - but this is where I have said before, my perspective is not entirely incorrect. I am and always was charming ans sweet, smart and caring - I was just inconsistent. I did love her, and showed it to her, it just was not enough to overcome the rest. She waited for me to change, I did not.
I am different today than 3 years ago - Then at the first moment she wanted me back I got a plane the next day and went home. I did not fully understand my flaws, nor did I work on the ones I did. She had not realized Any of hers, and had no time to think of anything.
The OM she was seeing emotionally then, had moved 3 hours away and was not able to be with her. The moment she realized that she called me and asked me to come home. She was still on control and I ran back without fixing even 1 issue. We were happy because we were both pretending the past was over - we were Both wrong.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 09:33 PM
After I wrote the prior note here: I thought about something.
You know I really don't care bout what it is that I have lost. It's only a house, my children are my home. My wife was once, and maybe someday again - they are my home. I would like to believe that she will miss what she has lost. Even though I was not perfect, probably not even "good", but I would like to think that there was plenty of good there. She had a family, and good man, even if semi-broken. I don't want to feel cocky about what she may have lost, but she may have lost more than I.
You know I really don't care bout what it is that I have lost. It's only a house, my children are my home. My wife was once, and maybe someday again - they are my home. I would like to believe that she will miss what she has lost. Even though I was not perfect, probably not even "good", but I would like to think that there was plenty of good there. She had a family, and good man, even if semi-broken. I don't want to feel cocky about what she may have lost, but she may have lost more than I.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 10:32 PM
Quote:
I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her
You make statements like this, and how you love her unconditionally, but your behavior does not line up with it. It's just words. She didn't feel like you were walking to the end of the earth for her.....or the kids. What did you do to show that you would?
You are too dependent. You depended on your W to keep the M and family going. You depended on her to do the work and to supply your needs. But you didn't give in return. 25yrs has given you excellent guidance. I can see that you want to get a little dependent on her too (wanting to talk with her off the board) and I understand it (I once was a newcomer), but you just want someone to hold your hand. You aren't applying what is said. You have not said what your goals are in improving yourself. You have not made a plan of action. You are just talking, instead of doing. And if things don't work out, then you will probably blame DBing instead of yourself. Problem is, you are not DBing.
It's good, and necessary, to own your part of the breakdown, but you have to take action to correct these behaviors that harm a R....and yourself as a man. You can't change the past, but you can take measures to insure history isn't repeated. If she came back tomorrow, you would not be ready. You would repeat the same behavior. It takes work and time to develop personal changes for life. You should have enough motivation, but I doubt you do. You are still keeping score and saying, "I may have done x but she did z". You may accept failure to a point, then make sure we know she's to blame too. But then you claim unconditional love? That's why I asked if you could love her while she lived with this OM as much as if she was with you. You can't. Not unconditionally. And that's ok, but don't make these types of claims.
You said you were lazy. I think this is something you may have to battle from now on, or it will be your undoing. Relationships take work, if they have any life. You are still waiting on her. You ask how will she notice your changes or if she'll even care. Well what if she doesn't? You are just prolonging getting down to work!
Sure, you like to talk. But you know what they say about talk. When are you going to get serious and actually do something? You were able to return to the M in 2011 and didn't have to do anything but wait for her to tell you when to come home. It won't work like that this time. She's fed up with your treatment, and who could blame her? No, it doesn't justify her A, but neither does anything excuse you. Stop pointing fingers and start becoming the man you need to be.
Don't replace one dependency with another one. Build yourself a social life. Get involved with something that doesn't require a computer. Start giving back to your community/church with volunteering in some human needs.
And get a vehicle.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 10:58 PM
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children. Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day. I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children. Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day. I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:09 PM
What she said^^^.
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
You speak of what SHE is losing by not being married to you. What was she getting From you? A lot of financial support? No...a lot of help wth the kids? NO, you just said that Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
You did not show her the things you claim to feel, so they really don't matter much.
Sort of like how you did not "Not INTEND to have sex with and impregnate OW"
See, you seem to believe that your stated claims of what you intended or did not, or what you feel, matters MORE than what you do. But it's just the opposite.
Actions always speak much louder than words. You don't act like you say you feel. You "would go" to the ends of the earth for her?
Then get a car, make some friends, spend a lot more alone time with your kids, and change.
Bottom line is that she's "taking" nothing from you. The things you lack, like a car or friends, are NOT things your wife is supposed to provide you in life. OR they are things you did not actively have or show interest in.
Inertia, laziness and wallowing, are your enemies now.
When you find yourself facing a choice and you struggle to know what is right to do,
chances are the option that requires more effort - is the RIGHT one.
If the easier choice were the morally "right" choice, you'd have made it already.
The struggle comes when we know what the right thing to do is, but we just don't want to do it. OR don't know how. That's where the work comes in.
So the question is, do YOU think it is worth it to become the man you were meant to become?
You admit you enjoyed your kids more than you expected, which is telling. Earlier You said you didn't see the need or advantage to making friends, so you don't have any. Well, do you still feel that way?
If I could emotionally and behaviorally kick you in the pants, I would. I don't know how to "make" you value friendship or time with your kids or how to get you to wake up to your life.
Sandi's post said it well. Read it again, please.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
You speak of what SHE is losing by not being married to you. What was she getting From you? A lot of financial support? No...a lot of help wth the kids? NO, you just said that Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
You did not show her the things you claim to feel, so they really don't matter much.
Sort of like how you did not "Not INTEND to have sex with and impregnate OW"
See, you seem to believe that your stated claims of what you intended or did not, or what you feel, matters MORE than what you do. But it's just the opposite.
Actions always speak much louder than words. You don't act like you say you feel. You "would go" to the ends of the earth for her?
Then get a car, make some friends, spend a lot more alone time with your kids, and change.
Bottom line is that she's "taking" nothing from you. The things you lack, like a car or friends, are NOT things your wife is supposed to provide you in life. OR they are things you did not actively have or show interest in.
Inertia, laziness and wallowing, are your enemies now.
When you find yourself facing a choice and you struggle to know what is right to do,
chances are the option that requires more effort - is the RIGHT one.
If the easier choice were the morally "right" choice, you'd have made it already.
The struggle comes when we know what the right thing to do is, but we just don't want to do it. OR don't know how. That's where the work comes in.
So the question is, do YOU think it is worth it to become the man you were meant to become?
You admit you enjoyed your kids more than you expected, which is telling. Earlier You said you didn't see the need or advantage to making friends, so you don't have any. Well, do you still feel that way?
If I could emotionally and behaviorally kick you in the pants, I would. I don't know how to "make" you value friendship or time with your kids or how to get you to wake up to your life.
Sandi's post said it well. Read it again, please.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:22 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
What she said^^^.
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
...Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
^^I meant Outside the home, an activity. All 3 at the same time. Same point I understand. But just clarifying.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
^^That made more sense than just about everything I have read.
No more about what you "would do" or "will do"; just what you ARE doing.
...Halloween was the "First time" you have been with your kids and not with your wife. The first time you have been alone with your kids in their lives, was a few days ago. Were you as shocked to read that, as I was? There is so much you have NOT been doing.
^^I meant Outside the home, an activity. All 3 at the same time. Same point I understand. But just clarifying.
Start acting and Doing more, projecting and predicting less.
^^That made more sense than just about everything I have read.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:33 PM
Quote:
Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
You are not being badgered! You are being challenged!
Going to work is great. Seeing your children is wonderful. Stopping the pity parties is good. That is progress.
As I said before, it takes work and time to develop life long changes. It is easy to say what we want and that we won't repeat the same mistakes. What I am trying to impress on you is that you have to start now to change your personal and relational behavior patterns. It takes practice every day. That why you need some kind of plan to keep yourself on track.
Now that you have identified some of the areas you are lacking, can make some personal goals to reach every week? Can you reach out to develop yourself and your life? Find ways to help you make these changes?
I understand broke. I understand living in a one-horse town. I know what it's like to have very, very little. I have been there. I have also learned that when you set your mind to something.....you will find a way, if you want it bad enough not to give up trying.
Don't get defensive and don't give up.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:40 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
You are not being badgered! You are being challenged!
I understood that right after I posted, I apologize I was quick.
Going to work is great. Seeing your children is wonderful. Stopping the pity parties is good. That is progress.
Thank you
As I said before, it takes work and time to develop life long changes. It is easy to say what we want and that we won't repeat the same mistakes. What I am trying to impress on you is that you have to start now to change your personal and relational behavior patterns. It takes practice every day. That why you need some kind of plan to keep yourself on track.
Now that you have identified some of the areas you are lacking, can make some personal goals to reach every week? Can you reach out to develop yourself and your life? Find ways to help you make these changes?
Just need some clarification on some of the finer points here, aside from my children or financial. When it comes to the issues I had with her - how to I work on those without interaction with her?
And seriously, how does one make friends. I have a few, but they are phone friends, game friends. I've known them for years, but they are not local. The church I would go to is near 20 miles away. And until I can drive again....
I understand broke. I understand living in a one-horse town. I know what it's like to have very, very little. I have been there. I have also learned that when you set your mind to something.....you will find a way, if you want it bad enough not to give up trying.
Sounds like exactly how I feel about my marriage.
Don't get defensive and don't give up.
I apologize for getting defensive. Right after I posted and made myself a cup of coffee, I thought. . I am not getting yelled at, they are just tough loving me into the position I need to be in. It has worked very well
Thank you.And no, I will never give up.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:46 PM
Originally Posted By: billman12
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here.
How so?
I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.
Good
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.
It's risky at my end, & confirmed by past experiences. I assume that is why "management" frowns upon it.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment.
I assumed as much, but not being broke is something to work on b/c at your age to find yourself there, is something NOT to repeat. And it's Not your wife's fault; but I think you know that.
I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
Okay, fair enough...not sure who is arguing that point.
I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.
the way you ask though, is kind of frequent and seems as if you are not sure it's worth it IF she isn't going to return. Awhile back you asked me if there was any point if she were to remain with OM. And you kind of fixed that but the comment really struck me. I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
What are your unanswered questions?
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children.
See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.
Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would.
She has asked you to do things, and you did not. You said you worry that she believes you will never change. Given your history, why should she?
I am not asking you that to hurt you but to help you get HER point of view b/c your past behaviors (like never being with your kids on your own) make me think you need a lot of direction. You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids? See, you don't seem to know why someone would expect "X" or "Y" from you and that is why I'm telling you ..
I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults -
2 things. 1) Why? What difference would it make to you? Get real now.
2) it's NOT YOUR JOB to get her to admit her flaws!! You are her h.
You are in No position to hope or expect or want that from her. You are so off base with this^^ that you need to get it now.
For ME< it's a statement like that which make me nuts. It's your scorecard and you have to lose it b/c scorecards are BAD destructive things in a marriage.
The more you talk about HER FLAWS the less energy you spend on your own.
It is misdirected & misguided use of energy and focus on Your end..
I have written the following to you many many times but it's got to sink in.
WORK on you and only you. Stay in your sandbox and don't even look at hers.
but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed.
When did you attempt that? How did you fail?
I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming
it's hard to know what this^^ means. Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her? I mean it. You ignored her and the kids for a game, After the first sep, and you didn't help with the house or the bills much. So I'm sincerely asking you what was charming and sweet about all that. I assume you showed her some good things but you need to tell us what the looked like.
and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.
I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day.
I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles
Even if true, then build or learn something. MAKE a fun thing to do or enjoy.
in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.
I lived in the interior of Alaska for 3 years, with a newborn. I know something about a "crappy" town. But I compensated for so much, by GAL.
I overcame the very tempting idea of staying inside in the winter, (Typical temperatures in the winter in the interior, do NOT exceed -20'F)
I was tempted to give in to the inertia and darkness outside. I overcame that.
No one is saying "walk 30 miles" but IF your town has more than a few thousand people in it or a town nearby does, you can GAL much more than you are. I think you know that.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.
I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here.
How so?
I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.
Good
No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.
When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.
It's risky at my end, & confirmed by past experiences. I assume that is why "management" frowns upon it.
I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment.
I assumed as much, but not being broke is something to work on b/c at your age to find yourself there, is something NOT to repeat. And it's Not your wife's fault; but I think you know that.
I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.
Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.
Okay, fair enough...not sure who is arguing that point.
I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.
the way you ask though, is kind of frequent and seems as if you are not sure it's worth it IF she isn't going to return. Awhile back you asked me if there was any point if she were to remain with OM. And you kind of fixed that but the comment really struck me. I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way.
And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.
What are your unanswered questions?
Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children.
See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.
Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would.
She has asked you to do things, and you did not. You said you worry that she believes you will never change. Given your history, why should she?
I am not asking you that to hurt you but to help you get HER point of view b/c your past behaviors (like never being with your kids on your own) make me think you need a lot of direction. You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids? See, you don't seem to know why someone would expect "X" or "Y" from you and that is why I'm telling you ..
I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults -
2 things. 1) Why? What difference would it make to you? Get real now.
2) it's NOT YOUR JOB to get her to admit her flaws!! You are her h.
You are in No position to hope or expect or want that from her. You are so off base with this^^ that you need to get it now.
For ME< it's a statement like that which make me nuts. It's your scorecard and you have to lose it b/c scorecards are BAD destructive things in a marriage.
The more you talk about HER FLAWS the less energy you spend on your own.
It is misdirected & misguided use of energy and focus on Your end..
I have written the following to you many many times but it's got to sink in.
WORK on you and only you. Stay in your sandbox and don't even look at hers.
but that by far will not change whether I love her.
I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed.
When did you attempt that? How did you fail?
I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming
it's hard to know what this^^ means. Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her? I mean it. You ignored her and the kids for a game, After the first sep, and you didn't help with the house or the bills much. So I'm sincerely asking you what was charming and sweet about all that. I assume you showed her some good things but you need to tell us what the looked like.
and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.
I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?
"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.
I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day.
I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles
Even if true, then build or learn something. MAKE a fun thing to do or enjoy.
in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.
I lived in the interior of Alaska for 3 years, with a newborn. I know something about a "crappy" town. But I compensated for so much, by GAL.
I overcame the very tempting idea of staying inside in the winter, (Typical temperatures in the winter in the interior, do NOT exceed -20'F)
I was tempted to give in to the inertia and darkness outside. I overcame that.
No one is saying "walk 30 miles" but IF your town has more than a few thousand people in it or a town nearby does, you can GAL much more than you are. I think you know that.
I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.
I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/02/14 11:56 PM
Here are some GAL I did. NOTE that doing these usually introduced me to new people, many of whom became friends. And not all friends will be life long; some are just good for hanging with while you live in a funky place, others will remain true to you for life.
Don't look at one activity and figure out why it would NOT work for you;
rather, think outside the box, and find something that would.
Billman, I was miserable in Alaska, at first. Then I heard our 12 y/o son complain about how much he hated it there. His 9 y/o sister said "well we live here now & for the next 3 years, so I'm going to make the best of it!" (from the mouths of babes...)
I decided then and there that I was NOT Going to surrender to the darkness outside. H had gone native on me and was hunting or fishing or working almost all the time.
IF you want to make friends, start by GAL, b/c 1) you will meet potential friends and 2) you will be a lot more interesting & happy, and people like that.
This is some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, & I became a better target shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I did archery indoors, with lessons.
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape.
Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
Don't look at one activity and figure out why it would NOT work for you;
rather, think outside the box, and find something that would.
Billman, I was miserable in Alaska, at first. Then I heard our 12 y/o son complain about how much he hated it there. His 9 y/o sister said "well we live here now & for the next 3 years, so I'm going to make the best of it!" (from the mouths of babes...)
I decided then and there that I was NOT Going to surrender to the darkness outside. H had gone native on me and was hunting or fishing or working almost all the time.
IF you want to make friends, start by GAL, b/c 1) you will meet potential friends and 2) you will be a lot more interesting & happy, and people like that.
This is some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, & I became a better target shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I did archery indoors, with lessons.
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape.
Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/03/14 12:11 AM
"I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way."
Yeah, i knew it, it's just something I did not want to accept.
See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.
I think what I really mean by this is he is married, he cheated on his wife 2x. I know it does not matter. But I think a part of me wants to believe that they are doomed to fail. Not that it would result in us together - just Not him being her happiness. Selfish I think.
You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids?
I did, but it was always in home. I never took them to the park or the store (all 3 at once). And when we were home , I didn't do alot then either. I mean I did play with them, it was just sporadic, and not nearly as much as it could have been. I was not a bad father, just not a very good one.
About her faults. I understand. I know I am not 100% blame. I might need more help with this yet.
When did you attempt that? How did you fail? Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her?
When it came to things that were immediate I would not hesitate. I.E going to the store to get her something. Moving a piece of furniture. Fixing something that was broken. I would always hold her hand or let her grab my arm when we would walk. i never missed a kiss before one of us left the house. I always said I love you, and called her beautiful. I used to thank her, several times a week - she'd ask why, I'd say "for loving me". I kiss her forehead at least once a day. When we hugged, I'd move her hair and kiss her neck.
I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?
I agree.. the things that mattered were helping cleaning the house. the mess in the back yard and the basement. My desk was always a mess. I didnt vaccuumm, dishes, garbage. I mean i did them, but late or delayed, after nagging. I was not dilligent.
And as for the Bills - all our money was in a joint account . .i never bought anything for myself--save for cigarettes or soda. every other penny i made when to whatever needed to be paid. .Seriously . i never had any money. . didnt need it.
Yeah, i knew it, it's just something I did not want to accept.
See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.
I think what I really mean by this is he is married, he cheated on his wife 2x. I know it does not matter. But I think a part of me wants to believe that they are doomed to fail. Not that it would result in us together - just Not him being her happiness. Selfish I think.
You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids?
I did, but it was always in home. I never took them to the park or the store (all 3 at once). And when we were home , I didn't do alot then either. I mean I did play with them, it was just sporadic, and not nearly as much as it could have been. I was not a bad father, just not a very good one.
About her faults. I understand. I know I am not 100% blame. I might need more help with this yet.
When did you attempt that? How did you fail? Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her?
When it came to things that were immediate I would not hesitate. I.E going to the store to get her something. Moving a piece of furniture. Fixing something that was broken. I would always hold her hand or let her grab my arm when we would walk. i never missed a kiss before one of us left the house. I always said I love you, and called her beautiful. I used to thank her, several times a week - she'd ask why, I'd say "for loving me". I kiss her forehead at least once a day. When we hugged, I'd move her hair and kiss her neck.
I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?
I agree.. the things that mattered were helping cleaning the house. the mess in the back yard and the basement. My desk was always a mess. I didnt vaccuumm, dishes, garbage. I mean i did them, but late or delayed, after nagging. I was not dilligent.
And as for the Bills - all our money was in a joint account . .i never bought anything for myself--save for cigarettes or soda. every other penny i made when to whatever needed to be paid. .Seriously . i never had any money. . didnt need it.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/03/14 12:47 AM
Do your children attend the local school, or are they bused to another town? Check for school events, and if you can get there, go support it and meet other people there. It also makes your kids feel excited when their dad shows up for school sponsored activities. Do your kids have classmates nearby? Maybe you could offer to keep them one Saturday afternoon while their parents take a break. Ask them to bring a sack lunch and have a picnic. Some parents may actually want to join in. Plan old fashion outdoor games. These type of fun times don't require much money. Use your imagination, and think of other things you can do with your kids, and to meet their parents.
Does the town have a local newspaper? (I onced lived in a place so small there was no news, much less a paper to tell about it.). But if you are lucky enough to have one, watch to see if there is ever anything happening in the community. You may not feel a ton of interest at first, but it will get you exposed to people and maybe open doors to new friendships.
Look around and see if there is something you can do for a elderly or disabled person. Nothing that requires you spending money, just an act of kindness and giving of yourself.
If there is some type of community hospital, nursing home, soup kitchen, whatever......see what you can do to offer yourself in being there for another person. If there are none of these places, look at your neighbors. People need people, and so many are lonely or need a hand extended to them. In other words, get out and make yourself available where there are people.
These things not only open new doors, but help build character and give back blessings. They usually teach us something about ourselves or life. Not to mention what it does for us when we help another human being. Where there are people there are needs, and when we try to help others....it has a very healing affect on ourselves.
Are you lucky enough to have a library? Need I say more? If not, then research the Internet for all kinds of help in personal growth, spiritual help, goal setting, etc.
Does the town have a local newspaper? (I onced lived in a place so small there was no news, much less a paper to tell about it.). But if you are lucky enough to have one, watch to see if there is ever anything happening in the community. You may not feel a ton of interest at first, but it will get you exposed to people and maybe open doors to new friendships.
Look around and see if there is something you can do for a elderly or disabled person. Nothing that requires you spending money, just an act of kindness and giving of yourself.
If there is some type of community hospital, nursing home, soup kitchen, whatever......see what you can do to offer yourself in being there for another person. If there are none of these places, look at your neighbors. People need people, and so many are lonely or need a hand extended to them. In other words, get out and make yourself available where there are people.
These things not only open new doors, but help build character and give back blessings. They usually teach us something about ourselves or life. Not to mention what it does for us when we help another human being. Where there are people there are needs, and when we try to help others....it has a very healing affect on ourselves.
Are you lucky enough to have a library? Need I say more? If not, then research the Internet for all kinds of help in personal growth, spiritual help, goal setting, etc.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/03/14 12:50 AM
Thank you Sandi2. I will look into some of those things. You are right, the interest is not there yet...but why not
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/03/14 08:44 AM
Originally Posted By: billman12
Thank you Sandi2. I will look into some of those things. You are right, the interest is not there yet...but why not
Because inertia has been your companion for far too long, that's why. You're used to not doing much outside of being around your family.
Don't wait for the interest to come; chances are it won't. You have to force yourself at first.
Just like forcing yourself to be extra courteous to others, eventually makes one become more polite and giving, and then, actually happier.
IN the TED Talks I suggest, (Amy Cuddy and Shawn Achor) they speak of DOING things or taking actions that then create the emotion we want. So reverse the concept of "waiting to feel it and THEN behaving or doing it that way" and instead
DO IT FIRST and in time, the emotions accompany it. Sort of an "outside inside" approach. That's why you cannot "wait" for an interest in pottery or a foreign language or dance or any volunteer activity to arise; you have to go DO one and then the emotions follow.
Did ANY of the activities I listed on my GAL list, spark anything? Can you at least imagine doing one (or one of Sandi's suggestions) and NOT HATING IT?
That's the one to start with. Another version of "Love the one you're with" is to learn to Love what you are doing.
RE the kids---You can also have "game nights" with the kids and make homemade pizza or whatever decent cheap food they like. Open up the sofa bed or lay down sleeping bags and have a "kid party". Watch a flick they like or just do the games. You have to DO more with them; not necessarily spend more on them.
Good luck!
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 05:22 AM
Despite having read the rules 50 times. Is there ever a time that i should initiate any conversations with my wife? Any conversation at all. And during the midst of the affair - what should I avoid, and what should I be sure to include.
My gut tells me no, no initiation whatsoever. But since we have no link, as I have mentioned. I feel a bit (and asking here as we know my emotions drive me) like I need to open the door to conversation somehow - whatever it's substance. Should it be a letter or a phone call, or in a public place in person.
I am asking not because I think it's a good idea. I am asking because I do not want to allow my own feelings to justify something that would be a mistake and need an honest answer to validate the option.
If not then I will not. My gut says patience, it will happen in time. My heart says there is so much I want to explain - and again I believe I know that now is just not the time. Especially as long as she thinks she is in love - nothing I say will make the slightest difference.
My gut tells me no, no initiation whatsoever. But since we have no link, as I have mentioned. I feel a bit (and asking here as we know my emotions drive me) like I need to open the door to conversation somehow - whatever it's substance. Should it be a letter or a phone call, or in a public place in person.
I am asking not because I think it's a good idea. I am asking because I do not want to allow my own feelings to justify something that would be a mistake and need an honest answer to validate the option.
If not then I will not. My gut says patience, it will happen in time. My heart says there is so much I want to explain - and again I believe I know that now is just not the time. Especially as long as she thinks she is in love - nothing I say will make the slightest difference.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 08:15 AM
Forget about the " rules" right now. They are from DB any way. Did you actually read the books?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 03:31 PM
I am going to take that as a sarcastic Duh. I do not have DB, but I have the DR book, and yes I have started it.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 04:09 PM
Everyone has to look at their individual stitch and see how things need to be applied.
I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?
Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?
The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:
"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."
As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.
Each person has to weigh in the particular issues of their stitch and decide what works.
I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?
Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?
The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:
"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."
As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.
Each person has to weigh in the particular issues of their stitch and decide what works.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Everyone has to look at their individual stitch and see how things need to be applied.
I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?
The RO was lifted now it is a Court Order - My lawyer stated that a RO is like a sword - touch it you get cut. But a Court order is like a shield - It specifically says that "peaceful contact about the welfare of the children" - for 1 year...... but lawyer says if she chooses to talk to me thats ok, but what is said cannot be in any way inferred as hostile or threatening. Which it wouldnt be, no interest in being hurtful toward her.
Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?
No, I think we have that ok - i mean once every 2 days and only about 3 texts, but it's there. My original question after thinking about it was stupid I think. She thinks she's in love with the OM - nothing I could possibly say would matter - regardless of how true or real it was.
The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:
"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."
As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.
Yes, we are not living under the same roof. And that is my fault. I was not emotionally strong enough - and I knew it. I decided to leave to give her space and time - at the time I did not know of the OM at all. Moving out was a huge mistake, but at the time, I thought staying would have been due to my emotional roller coaster.
What bugs me is that now we are not under the same roof, there is NO communication at all regarding the sitch. If thats expected than Ill accept it. I think that it makes this much harder. And since she is having an Exit Affair - it is evident that she is conflict avoidant - she will hide behind that court order until she is ready to talk, or the affair dies.
Each person has to weigh in the particular issues of their stitch and decide what works.
I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?
The RO was lifted now it is a Court Order - My lawyer stated that a RO is like a sword - touch it you get cut. But a Court order is like a shield - It specifically says that "peaceful contact about the welfare of the children" - for 1 year...... but lawyer says if she chooses to talk to me thats ok, but what is said cannot be in any way inferred as hostile or threatening. Which it wouldnt be, no interest in being hurtful toward her.
Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?
No, I think we have that ok - i mean once every 2 days and only about 3 texts, but it's there. My original question after thinking about it was stupid I think. She thinks she's in love with the OM - nothing I could possibly say would matter - regardless of how true or real it was.
The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:
"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."
As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.
Yes, we are not living under the same roof. And that is my fault. I was not emotionally strong enough - and I knew it. I decided to leave to give her space and time - at the time I did not know of the OM at all. Moving out was a huge mistake, but at the time, I thought staying would have been due to my emotional roller coaster.
What bugs me is that now we are not under the same roof, there is NO communication at all regarding the sitch. If thats expected than Ill accept it. I think that it makes this much harder. And since she is having an Exit Affair - it is evident that she is conflict avoidant - she will hide behind that court order until she is ready to talk, or the affair dies.
Each person has to weigh in the particular issues of their stitch and decide what works.
I suppose if I really had to ask a question it would be - during her affair, is any conversation at all plausible.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 05:11 PM
I suppose if I were to write a letter or have a conversation it would basically be a statement of intent.
Something along the lines of (worded correctly):
I am learning from my mistakes, I am making progress in understanding my role in this separation. I want to be a better father, and someday I want to be a better husband. I understand where you are right now. You see me as a man that is trying to win you over so that I can settle again once we get back together. You might be afraid to make that choice. I don't blame you, every time we have had this problem, I am better for awhile and I slump back to a normalcy that you do not want.
The only difference is that this time I have had a true awakening. I will prove it to you that I am a better man, that I will be a better man; but I will do this for it is necessary. It is not For you, it is for me and our children. If you choose to accept it someday then all the better. If not then I will be a better man all the same.
I now know where I went wrong, and the damage I have caused. I am holding on and will fight for this marriage for as long as I can hold out, because I believe in the potential of us.
I am not ready to word this better. But I believe that I need to state my intention to some degree. We have not talked about this for over a month, and I did not have this understanding then.
Something along the lines of (worded correctly):
I am learning from my mistakes, I am making progress in understanding my role in this separation. I want to be a better father, and someday I want to be a better husband. I understand where you are right now. You see me as a man that is trying to win you over so that I can settle again once we get back together. You might be afraid to make that choice. I don't blame you, every time we have had this problem, I am better for awhile and I slump back to a normalcy that you do not want.
The only difference is that this time I have had a true awakening. I will prove it to you that I am a better man, that I will be a better man; but I will do this for it is necessary. It is not For you, it is for me and our children. If you choose to accept it someday then all the better. If not then I will be a better man all the same.
I now know where I went wrong, and the damage I have caused. I am holding on and will fight for this marriage for as long as I can hold out, because I believe in the potential of us.
I am not ready to word this better. But I believe that I need to state my intention to some degree. We have not talked about this for over a month, and I did not have this understanding then.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 06:30 PM
Another addendum to the above. I feel like we're strangers. I presume this is normal, especially during an affair. Will it be better to leave it this way, or try to have civil conversations. Do I try to become a friend, or leave it as it is.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 07:02 PM
"I am going to take that as a sarcastic Duh. I do not have DB, but I have the DR book, and yes I have started it."
Not sure what you mean by this. It wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I just asked if you read the books.
We can't give you answers that refer back to concepts that are outlined in the books if you never read them. That's why I asked for clarification.
Hey if you don't want my help, then good luck to you.
Not sure what you mean by this. It wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I just asked if you read the books.
We can't give you answers that refer back to concepts that are outlined in the books if you never read them. That's why I asked for clarification.
Hey if you don't want my help, then good luck to you.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 07:27 PM
Likely a misunderstanding . MrBond. You said "forget the rules". I took that as sarcasm becasue I thought that this was the DB forum and you said the rules were about DB'ing. I did not mean to be rude and for sure would like any and all advice you have to offer. I apologize. Yes I am reading and re-reading Divorce Remedy. Should I also get Divorce Busting?
I presumed that by you saying forget the rules, you were actually saying " Yes if you are trying to DB, then the rules say no initiated relationship talk"
I presumed that by you saying forget the rules, you were actually saying " Yes if you are trying to DB, then the rules say no initiated relationship talk"
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 07:41 PM
The thing is that if you read just the rules on this message board without reading the books, you wouldn't understand that they are part of a bigger picture. It means that you don't go overboard with the communication with your spouse because LBS's have a tendency to do so at the beginning of the BD.
If you give your W space and continue to just change and increase the positive interactions with her, the communication should also increase but at a natural pace. How you get to that point is all in the books.
What have you been doing to improve yourself and make your changes permanent?
If you give your W space and continue to just change and increase the positive interactions with her, the communication should also increase but at a natural pace. How you get to that point is all in the books.
What have you been doing to improve yourself and make your changes permanent?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/04/14 08:52 PM
"because LBS's have a tendency to do so at the beginning of the BD."
I hear that. This is the reason I moved out - albeit I think the biggest mistake I made.
So far the improvements are more just understanding and realizations at the moment. I have had a few interactions with the children that were better and more enjoyable than before. I plan to continue those interactions in the best way. I am focusing on work more, and have a promotion coming up in 5 days, one where I will enjoy work even more. I have all the bills lined up and an itinerary to clear them up.
As far as GAL, still working that one - the church I want to go to is 15 miles away, no vehicle - and that was my first priority. I am steadily looking in to other community events, that will not interfere with my work schedule, or time with the kids - which I also know was her biggest issue with me.
I hear that. This is the reason I moved out - albeit I think the biggest mistake I made.
So far the improvements are more just understanding and realizations at the moment. I have had a few interactions with the children that were better and more enjoyable than before. I plan to continue those interactions in the best way. I am focusing on work more, and have a promotion coming up in 5 days, one where I will enjoy work even more. I have all the bills lined up and an itinerary to clear them up.
As far as GAL, still working that one - the church I want to go to is 15 miles away, no vehicle - and that was my first priority. I am steadily looking in to other community events, that will not interfere with my work schedule, or time with the kids - which I also know was her biggest issue with me.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/05/14 02:24 PM
Bill, my opinion about the letter of intent is don't send it. I don't want to hurt your feelings, but she will not be impressed, nor is she interested.
You are way too obvios when you say you aren't doing all this for her. You are pursuing in the letter. It makes you sound less thean attractive. I don't think you should proclaim that you are standing for the M. Don't reassure her you are making changes. That is not what you tell a WAW in an A.
You want to think this is an exit A. Whatever it is, she is living witb him, which indicates she doesn't want you and doesn't want to hear any of your intent. This is not the way, Bill. Get the changes established, first. Chaange your life, first.
As long as there is a court order and she is suppose to make the fist move every time, then I suggest you honor it. That should make a statement within itself. Otherwise, she will continue to have her guard up and not trust you.
There is a tine for everything. Don't try to do things before the right time or it may ruin it for good. This is the time to instill changes.
You are way too obvios when you say you aren't doing all this for her. You are pursuing in the letter. It makes you sound less thean attractive. I don't think you should proclaim that you are standing for the M. Don't reassure her you are making changes. That is not what you tell a WAW in an A.
You want to think this is an exit A. Whatever it is, she is living witb him, which indicates she doesn't want you and doesn't want to hear any of your intent. This is not the way, Bill. Get the changes established, first. Chaange your life, first.
As long as there is a court order and she is suppose to make the fist move every time, then I suggest you honor it. That should make a statement within itself. Otherwise, she will continue to have her guard up and not trust you.
There is a tine for everything. Don't try to do things before the right time or it may ruin it for good. This is the time to instill changes.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/07/14 02:53 AM
I have decided to go back to church. I am speaking with a pastor there on several occasions, and he is going to assist me with transportation to and from on Sundays and for another group called Creative Recovery.
I have decided to get in on the Parental meetings with the children's schools. Maybe even look into going further here.
Just a few updates, that's all
I have decided to get in on the Parental meetings with the children's schools. Maybe even look into going further here.
Just a few updates, that's all
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/07/14 11:12 PM
My sister just told me that she mailed an article to my wife. My wife "promised" her she'd read it. I just wanted to know if anyone has heard of it. Called "Who Will You Become?" by Linda J. MacDonald 2005
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/08/14 07:19 PM
Quote:
I have decided to go back to church. I am speaking with a pastor there on several occasions, and he is going to assist me with transportation to and from on Sundays and for another group called Creative Recovery.
I have decided to get in on the Parental meetings with the children's schools. Maybe even look into going further here.
I have decided to get in on the Parental meetings with the children's schools. Maybe even look into going further here.
That is great new, Bill.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/09/14 04:49 PM
I am having a difficult day. I am okay, I just miss being home. I am not upset or depressed, I do not want to cry. Just that little part of me that wishes things could start getting better.
I am doing what I can, working right now. Trying to clear my head back to 'normal'. Just a bit sad. Looking forward to a conversation tonight with the pastor from the church I will be attending as soon as I can get a ride or vehicle.
I am doing what I can, working right now. Trying to clear my head back to 'normal'. Just a bit sad. Looking forward to a conversation tonight with the pastor from the church I will be attending as soon as I can get a ride or vehicle.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/09/14 05:13 PM
It's understandable to have a case of homesickness. It's not a good feeling.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/09/14 05:19 PM
it surely is not. And of course the flooding thoughts are that of her "loving" another. I try to remind myself that it is not love, or at least not real love. But some how that does not make it any better.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/09/14 05:46 PM
Whatever is going on over at her house does not mean it is permanent. Try to think of this time as you being gone to training camp. A camp where you are reinventing yourself. In the meantime, she is enrolled in the school of hard knocks. By the time she graduates, you will be prepped to start a new relationship with her (or someone else).
What you are doing is tough stuff. If it were easy, I doubt it would stick for any period of time. You want these improvements to be for life! I remember how hard it was getting in shape every year when basketball practice started. I thought the coach would kill us before we ever had a game! But when show time finally came........we shinned! So in many ways, you are in training now. When you get in shape, you will feel great about yourself. You will be healthy physically, mentally, & spiritually. And since getting in shape is so tough, maybe just stay in shape.
What you are doing is tough stuff. If it were easy, I doubt it would stick for any period of time. You want these improvements to be for life! I remember how hard it was getting in shape every year when basketball practice started. I thought the coach would kill us before we ever had a game! But when show time finally came........we shinned! So in many ways, you are in training now. When you get in shape, you will feel great about yourself. You will be healthy physically, mentally, & spiritually. And since getting in shape is so tough, maybe just stay in shape.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/09/14 05:59 PM
I agree, and I have hope and faith it is definitely not permanent. Training for sure. I look back at my mistakes and the last time I tried to fix them and for a moment I wanna slap myself that I fixed nothing and put her through it again.
Then I realize, what's done is done, I promise myself I will never be that lazy person again. And I convince myself daily, that I am better today than what I was yesterday.
At night I pray for strength to continue what I am doing to the point it becomes permanent for me.
Then I realize, what's done is done, I promise myself I will never be that lazy person again. And I convince myself daily, that I am better today than what I was yesterday.
At night I pray for strength to continue what I am doing to the point it becomes permanent for me.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/12/14 05:18 AM
Just found out from her brother that she had recently broken up with the OM, then took him back. I do not have any other details about this, but it sounds like good news as far as their breaking up. My emotions are under control and I will do nothing . But MAN do I wish there was. The sooner they end, the better my chances.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/14/14 01:22 AM
Sister told me that my wife told her I was in denial.. Maybe I am. I have hope, it's okay.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/17/14 04:52 AM
We talked for a short while today. My wife says she does not understand why I was so think headed, and unable to "hear" her when she told me what she wanted. What would be a good read that I might suggest to her to assist her understanding that I as a man am more normal than she'd like to believe?
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/24/14 08:21 PM
The other morning she called me up asking for a jump, the batter died in our vehicle. I did not show excitement, but I stopped working and borrowed my mother's car and went the two blocks to jump the car. She was thankful and "nice" to me. We have not spoken since (2 days).
People are saying she has me wrapped around her finger. Plan A says meeting her needs, and show the better person. Is being there for her enabling her to use me, or doing the right thing?
I do not know where to draw a line, or whether to even draw one. Is she using me, or did she appreciate my being able to help her. Do I say no next time, or say yes but at my availability. Hard to get, or always ready. Show her love or show her pain (without whinny pity crybaby).
People are saying she has me wrapped around her finger. Plan A says meeting her needs, and show the better person. Is being there for her enabling her to use me, or doing the right thing?
I do not know where to draw a line, or whether to even draw one. Is she using me, or did she appreciate my being able to help her. Do I say no next time, or say yes but at my availability. Hard to get, or always ready. Show her love or show her pain (without whinny pity crybaby).
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 11/29/14 05:49 PM
Her mother is in the hospital with cancer, there is a good chance she will die soon. She agreed for me to go with her, and we are taking the children. It is an 11 hour drive each way.
This situation is not about us, it is about her mother. She has spoken to me more the past few days, and came to me to talk and cry to instead of her lover.
I believe that Plan A here is to be there for her, to help her any way I can during this time for her. I expressed warmly and with no return expectation, that I want to be there for her.
A small part of me wants her to deal with this on her own - but that would be foolish of me. I cannot help but question whether she did go to her lover, or why she was willing to let me take her.
I am very nervous, afraid to make mistakes. But I feel if I do this right, and there for her as I need to be, it will be a huge Love Bank deposit.
This situation is not about us, it is about her mother. She has spoken to me more the past few days, and came to me to talk and cry to instead of her lover.
I believe that Plan A here is to be there for her, to help her any way I can during this time for her. I expressed warmly and with no return expectation, that I want to be there for her.
A small part of me wants her to deal with this on her own - but that would be foolish of me. I cannot help but question whether she did go to her lover, or why she was willing to let me take her.
I am very nervous, afraid to make mistakes. But I feel if I do this right, and there for her as I need to be, it will be a huge Love Bank deposit.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 12/03/14 10:12 AM
Originally Posted By: billman12
Her mother is in the hospital with cancer, there is a good chance she will die soon. She agreed for me to go with her, and we are taking the children. It is an 11 hour drive each way.
This situation is not about us, it is about her mother. She has spoken to me more the past few days, and came to me to talk and cry to instead of her lover.
Though it is indeed about her mother (and your children's grandmother) you then made it about you ("crying to ME and not her lover"). Try NOT to do that. Stay with the good motives inside you and ignore the darker ones.
I believe that Plan A here is to be there for her, to help her any way I can during this time for her. I expressed warmly and with no return expectation, that I want to be there for her.
This ^^ is the ONLY plan I can imagine in this scenario, unless the claims you made about becoming a better man were tactical assertions and not the truth. Guess time will tell.
A small part of me wants her to deal with this on her own - but that would be foolish of me.
Yes, and cruel. She'd never ever forgive you then. Billman, THIS is one of those times in life when you STFU about yourself.
You are to be a PILLAR OF SUPPORT to her (and your children) and NOT make anything about you or your needs. Period. The end.
I cannot help but question whether she did go to her lover, or why she was willing to let me take her.
YOU KNOW her mom and he does not. You have tons of family history, he does not. You're the kids' dad, he's not.
This does not diminish the opportunity you now have and for which you should be grateful. Now is the time for ACTIONS, NOT WORDS about your changes. Show them, don't talk about them.
I am very nervous, afraid to make mistakes. But I feel if I do this right, and there for her as I need to be, it will be a huge Love Bank deposit.
This situation is not about us, it is about her mother. She has spoken to me more the past few days, and came to me to talk and cry to instead of her lover.
Though it is indeed about her mother (and your children's grandmother) you then made it about you ("crying to ME and not her lover"). Try NOT to do that. Stay with the good motives inside you and ignore the darker ones.
I believe that Plan A here is to be there for her, to help her any way I can during this time for her. I expressed warmly and with no return expectation, that I want to be there for her.
This ^^ is the ONLY plan I can imagine in this scenario, unless the claims you made about becoming a better man were tactical assertions and not the truth. Guess time will tell.
A small part of me wants her to deal with this on her own - but that would be foolish of me.
Yes, and cruel. She'd never ever forgive you then. Billman, THIS is one of those times in life when you STFU about yourself.
You are to be a PILLAR OF SUPPORT to her (and your children) and NOT make anything about you or your needs. Period. The end.
I cannot help but question whether she did go to her lover, or why she was willing to let me take her.
YOU KNOW her mom and he does not. You have tons of family history, he does not. You're the kids' dad, he's not.
This does not diminish the opportunity you now have and for which you should be grateful. Now is the time for ACTIONS, NOT WORDS about your changes. Show them, don't talk about them.
I am very nervous, afraid to make mistakes. But I feel if I do this right, and there for her as I need to be, it will be a huge Love Bank deposit.
Sure, it may well be seen that way.
But Sometimes doing the right thing BECAUSE it's the right thing, has to be enough for us.
Sometimes that's all there is. Good luck Billman, keep us posted please!
.
Re: Hope and unconditional love, all that remains... - 12/04/14 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
This does not diminish the opportunity you now have and for which you should be grateful. Now is the time for ACTIONS, NOT WORDS about your changes. Show them, don't talk about them.
Sure, it may well be seen that way.
But Sometimes doing the right thing BECAUSE it's the right thing, has to be enough for us.
Sometimes that's all there is. Good luck Billman, keep us posted please!
.
Sure, it may well be seen that way.
But Sometimes doing the right thing BECAUSE it's the right thing, has to be enough for us.
Sometimes that's all there is. Good luck Billman, keep us posted please!
.
I was there for her in every sense of the word. Yes I made mistakes, but I corrected them and moved on. She understood and on her own she opened up to me. I allowed her to talk and conversed with her as she was comfortable.
I did not indulge moments where I could have displayed pity, or about me. I allowed her to talk and express herself. We talked greatly about her mother and her mother forgave me for my past, and at first was not going to allow me to stay in her apartment while she was in the hospital. She changed her mind on that and my wife cried a little when her mother told her that she forgave me.
My wife opened up to me in a way I did not expect. I did not initiate any of the conversations, and she was clearly expressing to me that she does have a special place for me. I was all about her and the kids while I was there. I took care of our children and enjoyed every moment with them. I did not yell or get mad, but was firm when needed and talked to them nicely even when she wanted to yell at them. I simply said, "it's ok, I'll take care of this."
I did what I knew I needed to do for them and me, she told me herself at one point - without me asking that she has seen the changes over the past weeks. She told me she believed they were genuine and not an act. She said "You are SO good with them now".
on the way back she asked me out of the blue, what makes me so special to you. This was my reply: When we first met, it took me near a month to find the courage to talk to you. You were so ar out of my league. We talked and had moments, but I was frightened to ask you out. But the way you looked at me, and that sweet voice when you talked to me. The way you smiled when I said hello. That day I ound the courage, I knew you were the one. I was never afraid to ask someone on a date, or to bring them home with me. Something about you was special. While we were together, during those times I made you smile and laugh and when I was sweet to you; there was a glimmer in your eye that made you beautiful to me.
Then she said why am I beautiful. I said, your beauty goes beyond what I see of you. Yes you are beautiful on the outside that would never be a question. But on the inside, on those days I saw that glimmer especially you are a kind hearted wonderful mother. You put the kids above all else, I have always seen that. When I made you happy, you treated me like a king, and the smile on your face showed me a beauty that nothing could ever compare to. You could gain 300 pounds and let yourself go, and the person you are would still make you the most beautiful, and only woman in the world that I would see.
Then she asked how am I a good person if I am doing this to you. I was afraid to answer this one knowing what I understand and what I can and cannot say with her fog, but this was my response. You felt like we were through, you made a decision. I don't believe that you properly dealt with the feelings of loss with me. You distracted yourself with (him) and set me and the feelings you had for me aside. He courted you, and did a fine job of it. Your decision does not make you a bad person, it makes you human. Your decisions in the future will determine the person you wish to be in your life.
I am sure that most of what I said was over elaborated. But from what I understand and the way she responded and talked to me, I have to believe that she was searching for answers. I don't have the all and I know it, but I gave what I could. My mom told me that there is no way in hell, that the OM could tell her how beautiful she was in the way that I did.
She finally sees me, and I promise I am true, and this is no act (not said to her - was all action). At the end of the night, she still see's him as the object of her happiness, I did not argue with her. I simply said that is your choice, and I cannot argue your choice. All I can hope is that I am a reason to make a better choice. I said goodnight to her she hugged me and I left.
3 days, and I made more love bank deposits then I have in years.