Moving On

[Underdog]

It's looking a lot more like a layer of ice is forming on the surface of hell lately... with my oldest friends here posting updates. I have no idea how long it's been since I posted one, but I figured what the heck.

Me: 44
Mr. W.: 45 (yep, my XH)
D12 and D9
D final 5/05--Annivorcery is 5/17

My title is aptly put because I'm still moving on and I'm also reading a fabulous book by the same title (author is Sarah Ban Breathnach). It's getting easier to accept my past for what it is and let go of it. I will say, though, that I do find myself battling moments of anger and resentment for it, and oddly enough, I've felt a whole lot more comfortable sharing this with Mr. Wonderful. He's been compassionate and willing to listen, so maybe this is the part we should have addressed in MC several years ago but never had the chance.

Our communications are a whole lot more authentic--which is good--and I've found myself willing to let my emotions come out full throttle lately. I've had plenty of reasons to cry lately... and have allowed myself to do so without the self censure that I usually impose on myself. I've finally been able to understand that crying is about how I feel, and how others perceive me is their issue.

This week, my entire family has been in a tailspin. D9's dearest friend passed away on Sunday in a tragic accident. His older sister is friends with D12, and they've been gravitating toward each other with little effort. The memorial service for the school is tomorrow, and we're still waiting for details on the funeral. It's been a VERY tough week for all of us.

On a brighter note, the girls are both ready for summer break, though D9 will have to do her usual stint at summer school. She's getting another special ed teacher... story another day, but her current special ed teacher has been a marriage enlightenment teaching opportunity for me. I'll miss him greatly, as D9 has a very special R with him and has been extremely motivated to learn.

I'll share her exciting news as well. She's heading on a field trip to the zoo next week... animals are her most favorite thing in the world, so she's very excited. She was at the table coloring with her sitter at my house 2 weeks ago when she wrote ZOO across the paper. The sitter held up 2 hands and asked if she was writing numbers or letters. She chose the letters hand. D12 said, "D9, you just wrote the word zoo!" She enthusiastically nodded and clapped, seeming to say, "I'm so glad you understand!" She's also written the letter B... which is a difficult letter to maneuver for her.

Except for periodic toileting accidents (one last night in bed), she's doing well.

D12 is also kicking butt. She's still making straight A's, is heading into 7th grade in A/P classes and is loving the life of a volleyball player. She had a terrific time in Dallas--probably thanks to my sister and Nickel--and came "this" close to qualifying for nationals on Sunday (junior olympics). Our club season has now come to a close and she's playing for her middle school and is going to try out for a quick competitive fall league before tryouts for her present club in October. Oh, and she's heading to Scotland for a month with my parents in July. Life's good for her... well, except when I'm trying to keep up with her!

In between volleyball, we watch a lot of hockey. I wound up taking her, a friend and D9 to see the Avs play in March as a gift to myself. (I had a rather generous self appreciating birthday this year. ) Well, D12 fell in love with the game and didn't have to work too hard to convince me to subscribe to Center Ice (which I refused to do if it were only me watching hockey). My friends and family have now dubbed her, "Hockey Junior". We're addicted...and she's given me her full blessing to find a love interest who likes hockey and who also might be inclined to have season tickets or have an interest in going to the games during regular season. Preferably rink side and as close to the glass as possible... or club seats. That makes me laugh!

I hope I find him too!

And I'm officially opening my heart up to the possibility once again. I'm not going out on the offensive or anything, but I'm open to blind dates and considering a request if asked. Previously, D12's very time consuming volleyball schedule kept me successfully sequestered away from any thoughts of going out with a man. But I'm changing my tune--with her blessing.

Interestingly enough, D12 has initiated her own musings of what might be a good match for me. She's got me figured out better than I would have guessed... and has listed things that she feels are non-negotiable for me. Oddly, they are awfully close to my own list of desired traits: a good sense of humor, likes children, can accept D9's gifts for what they are, enjoys sports (especially volleyball and hockey) and who WANTS to spend time with me.

I think I'm going to ask for her opinion more often.

Oh, yeah, I have one more hopeful to add to the list--an affinity for motorcycles. That's one thing I miss about being with Mr. Wonderful, and now D9 is cashing in. Mr. Wonderful bought himself a Honda Gold Wing last month, and D9 has been his most willing passenger. She looks so cute in her motorcycle helmet and goggles! D12 wants nothing to do with it, though. At any rate, I have a pair of hot black leather chaps and jacket that are just screaming at me to wear them... and I'd love the chance to do just that, especially since the weather has been fabulous lately.

Not much else is happening. I keep in touch with my pals when we can. Wonder is hopefully coming out for a visit next month, and I'm making a trip to the Bay Area later this month, hoping to catch up with Azure. I'd also like to get to New York to visit H2H and Merrick this year, but I have a reunion to attend in DC this fall sometime (where I'll be sure to catch up with Michele and maybe Pen)... not sure how this will all pan out.

If I had anything to say to anyone just starting out, it would be to accept this path for what it is and work hard at identifying and learning the inherent lessons that are provided with big change.

I'm very grateful for the lessons I've learned as a result of being here and through my lengthy separation and divorce. The people who have become friends during this journey have been the best benefits... the proverbial silver lining in the black cloud. Only there's no black cloud here... just sunny skies overhead.

Now, back to work and life already in progress!

God bless,

Betsey

[kml]

Hi bets -
Thanks for the update.
D's sound good. Does D9 use other methods to write - ie letter boards, computer, etc - that might be easier for her than drawing out the letters? You might be surprised what she can spell!

Say hi to Azure for me when you see her. I thought I might be up there to pick up S19 from school, but H insisted he wanted that honor.

Ellie

[messyhead10]

My sitch is one of those were we are in contact but no progess being made at all and I think my H is just keeping me on a string. I am thinking about cutting all contact (my LRT to LRT). I honestly don't think it will bring him home so I just see that somehow I am going to have to prepare for moving on.

May I ask if you can move on if you are still Married or do you think you have to D first - I don't understand the difference between GAL and moving on.

Would love to hear any of your thoughts or experience

[Underdog]

Hi Ellie! Your kids sound great too... hard to believe how quickly time marches on, eh?

D9 is beginning private speech therapy again (after a 3 year absence--don't ask) next Wednesday. This guy is awesome, and we've seen him before--back when she went to a therapy camp at the age of 4. His specialty is non-verbal kids and he's got some amazing skills with alternative communication methods. Stay tuned!

I'll say hello to Azure, and who knows if she'll log back in here at some point. We're trying to accommodate our very tight travel schedules, but I'm hopeful that we can figure out some way to meet. I met her last year under hairy circumstances--D9 was in the hospital, and lovely Azure agreed to have lunch at the hospital. That sounded awful to me, so we found a more agreeable location to lunch! If you convince your H to swap, you going to head up over Memorial Day weekend?

Messyhead, you seem pretty new at this DB process. At the very least, I'm going to recommend starting up in Newcomers and posting your story in detail to let others get to know the pertinent info before passing along comments.

You didn't mention if you have children. I'm NOT a fan of LRT where children are concerned, for obvious reasons. What concerns me even more is that your musing implies that you'd be doing it solely to gain a reaction from him. Rule #1: NEVER (and I mean EVER) do or say anything to gain a reaction. You will always back yourself into a corner where you can't win.

This is where I can elaborate on the distinctions between moving on and GAL.

GAL (get a life). Well, IMHO that's what I'd be doing if my goal was to save my marriage to the extent possible. It means that you put yourself on the radar screen. You take care of yourself... you do things that fulfill you and bring you joy... for no other reason than the fact that you (like many of us) have probably allowed yourself to get lost in your marriage. GAL means you start taking responsibility for your life and your identity, and no matter what happens, in order to move on, you have to know what sort of life you want to lead... and get those goals in motion.

So, no, I don't think you can "move on" if your goal is to remain married (and you still are). My D has been final almost a year, and I'm not barking up that tree. I've got my own forest to play in, and I'm more than ready to find love again.

Does that answer your question?

Betsey

[messyhead10]

Thanks - I am a daily visitor to newcomers posting and responding a lot. DBing since Jan with no progress - H makes no mention of M at all. It is a 2 year M with no children. I honestly have DBd my A$$ off - I do still want my M but the limbo just gets intolerable at times.

I suppose I am just looking into other avenues and moving on is something I do think about - but like detaching a very intangible concept - so just trying to do my homework really.

Thank you though for your insight - BTW so sorry your M did not work out - I hope and believe you will find love again

[Underdog]

Hey there, Messyhead...

I honestly have DBd my A$$ off - I do still want my M but the limbo just gets intolerable at times.

Oh, man, I do understand. I traveled the DB road for more than 2 years, so please know you've got a friend here. I just want you to remember something that my DB coach (Laurie) reminded me early in the game: waiting in limbo is your choice.

It always made me feel better knowing that my action (or inaction) was a choice. Now in the early days, it didn't make me feel better about HIS choices, but I didn't take too long to realize I had no control over them.

So are you saying that you guys remain in frequent contact but ignore the elephant in the living room? Tell me more... or direct me to your thread.

I'm not sorry for my path anymore, friend. It is what it is, and there is a divine hand in where I am right now. While it would have been awesome had Mr. Wonderful decided to make the effort to give our M a good boy scout try, he didn't. I don't judge... and while fear does surface here and there, I try to remember that the last few years of our M were awfully unhappy. A great deal of that perceived unhappiness was all my own fault... and that's where the miracle lies. Because of my separation, I changed what is in my heart.

If you need help with reframing detaching and other stuff, I'm sure we can help you out. It's initially tough, but once you do, it becomes crystal clear.

Life is about choices, friend. We can only control the choices that are ours to make, so choose wisely. You'll have no regrets.

Hugs,

Betsey

[therabbithole]

messyhead,

I'm really sorry to hear about your sitch, but you've taken the right steps to being here if your marriage is what you are wanting.

I'd tell you from my perspective as a WAW, I didn't mention the M much either when XH and I had conversations. I was more interested into getting back into normal conversation with no pressure. Second, I'll tell you that what I really really needed from him the most was for him to GAL WITHOUT moving on. I know you're a little confused by that, but let me try and explain.

It's only natural for you to think about moving on because you feel like you've just lost a big part of your life and you're wondering what's going to fill that space. Part of my problem was that my XH depended upon me for all things emotional. I was the emotional thermostat and I felt like he didn't have a life without me. That I really could have been anyone to him, just as long as he wasn't alone.

Don't get me wrong, I've got my own issues that contributed to how I felt, but what I wanted him to do was to have his own life and show me that he WANTED me in his, not that he NEEDED me in it. And there is a HUGE difference in how that feels to someone. One is confident, one is insecure.

So getting a life, but making sure that it's all for you and learning to rely on you and keeping the door open for your H to see that. My XH on the other hand, was so desperate to not be alone, he was looking for someone else the moment I walked out the door.

Also, when i walked out the door he felt he knew for sure that I wasn't coming back...and that made me even more sure that what I was doing was the right thing. If he had said to me, "If you need to go, because you need some time, go, I'll be here no matter how long it takes you. I love you." I think our story would have been a different one. It meant he had confidence in our relationship at a time in which I didn't...that would have been something that meant something to me when nothing else he said did.

That's just my two cents without reading your whole sitch.

[messyhead10]

Hi Underdog - I detect a little tought love here - (much needed actually)

I have seen my mistakes in the M and told my H of them and my expressed my willingness to at least give things another chance and he has seen the many changes in me.

So far I have not expressed any anger only a few times when he has overstepped the mark. But my anger which was a huge problem in the M resurfaces. (I have set up some counselling for myself for this starting soon as it is getting too much to manage on my own.)

is the result of our unwillingness to accept divine will and instead try and invoke our own.

I do have a faith and I don't know God's will for me or H but I do ask for it, but good reminder for me here I have a prayer

This is God I will be handling all your problems today - so have a good day.


Maybe I should apply this one a little more.

Your words are very wise - you have obviously survived this experience without bitterness - honestly this in itself is astounding and is why I believe you will certainly find love again.

Thank you again for your kind words - hope you stick around.

[TripleJ]

1) I started to see myself through another set of glasses--more truthful glasses.

Would those be the rose colored glasses, or the 3 inch thick beer googles? I was wondering where I put those things...........

i figured I stop in and say hi, since there's a few that have posted updates. just living life, keeping busy working full time, going to school, taking care of the kids......ya know, dad stuff.

anyway, i see your back into the thick of things.....GO YOU!

Triple J

p.s. (I keep inserting them wherever I want) if Merrick still reads, just want to let him know.....

GO SABRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! root for the real NY team, will ya?

[koshka]

TripleJ,

GO SABRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! root for the real NY team, will ya?

Let's Go METS!!

Hi, Bets!

Thanks,

Joe

[Underdog]

Messy--I appreciate your kind words! I work at the bitterness thing... I have 2 kids and I want them to see me as better and not bitter. It's a powerful motivator.

TripleJ--I did say different glasses, didn't I? I'll check and see if I have your beer goggles since I haven't needed them in awhile. You already know I'm rooting for the Sabres. And yes, that means we don't talk about last night. AT ALL.

Joe--Nice to see you again! Um, I'm not a Mets fan, but I do approve of your color coded cheer. You can do that here on my thread without fear of reprisal!

Avs aside, I had a wonderfully cathartic day yesterday. It was D9's friend's memorial service... And as odd as I know this sounds, we had an amazing and fun time. This family knows how to celebrate life, and it was most definitely a celebration. They had a slide show of pictures of this lovable little boy, and one of them made everyone cry... it was he and my D9, with his arm around her like they were a couple. According to him, they were. He was going to marry her and take care of her...

The tough part for me was at the end. Everyone was invited over to his mom's house (they are divorced and have been my role models in a post-D R) for a party.

Other than family on all sides, we were the last ones there. The 2 identically named D12's were really enjoying each other as D9 scarfed down cake when the mom came up to me and gave me a big hug. We both started to cry... which is when she told me, "Life made us the most odd kind of sisters, but the best kind. Betsey, I love you... and you know that G loved D9. We'll help you find some other lucky boy to marry her, okay?" Then we both broke down. Damn, it's still hard.

But it's life and one must pick up the pieces and forge ahead. That's what I'm doing today. Well, without planning on watching the Avs until next fall...

It's also mother's day weekend... I'm going to be busy around the house, taking care of things that have gone by the wayside with all this volleyball activity.

Happy mothers day to all! Especially to those of you who are fathers but mothers in disguise.

Betsey

[DavidM]

A couple ideas to throw your way, and just something to consider. Leaving a marriage is very painful, and while I know you are feeling pain too, it sounds like you might need to tap into some empathy and compassion for someone who honestly felt that there was no other choice but to leave.

They don't keep us on the hook to entertain themselves or to inflict harm. Deep down inside, I think that most of them know that leaving wasn't the best way to work through conflict, and they are hoping that something will happen for them to get to a better place. One of two things, actually: 1) Either we change and give them time and space to evaluate the problem from their perspective without getting vindictive or resolute in the path to shutting them out; or 2) We give them all the reason why we could never change and that leaving was the best thing to do.

Our self esteem suffers for only one reason: we personalize their departure and turn it into a story of victimization. We make it all about us, and how awful we must have been and unworthy of love for someone else to reject us.

I admit that I spent way too much time in this frame of mind. But slowly, I was able to see that my XH is horribly depressed and his leaving our marriage had very little to do with me. Yes, the way I had been managing conflict with him was unbearable. And it's also true that leaving might have been the only way for me to realize how he was feeling about our troubles... but the fact is that I did change, and I worked very hard at dealing with the issues I knew were obstacles in us being able to get close to one another.

Betsey: WOW!! This definitely hit close for me. I KNOW now that W felt she had no alternative. (the fact that she was behaving immaturely and not communicating on an adult level is another issue...but that's how she FELT)

And yes I did personalize this. My C has asked me why I have taken on so MUCH of the responsibility when it's obvious that W made (or didn't make) a lot of CHOICES that put us here. That she wan't an active participant in our marriage.
She's on Effexor, been in counseling since last Sept, sometimes 2x/week...

My author mentor in life has a saying that has really resonated with me. Suffering is the result of our unwillingness to accept divine will and instead try and invoke our own. What he means by this is that this path has been chosen for a good reason. See this as an opportunity to gain clarity for yourself.

OMG. TRUE!!! I had a moment two nights ago at work (saw OM) and yet soon after I felt this huge sense of relief, that everything was going to be okay. I KNOW in the long run that's what will happen. That I will be okay, that I will be happier than I have in a long time... b/c she's NOT around making things unpleasant, OR she comes back New/Improved... AND regardless of which of those two things happen... I will be new/improved! So, it's all good!

I no longer want to be with people who can't say clearly, "I choose to love you, because you are who you are."

Do you know how powerful that is? It's awesome. And I can't wait to meet the guy who signs up for the job enthusiastically. Something tells me it's going to be doggone exciting to see the difference between making a conscious choice and just reacting out of fear.

Amen sister! (If we're both still single in 2 years... come look me up!!

I just have to keep reminding myself THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME!!! THIS IS ABOUT HER ISSUES!

D

[koshka]

Betsey,

For someone who's not a Mets fan, you're very nice.

It's also mother's day weekend... I'm going to be busy around the house, taking care of things that have gone by the wayside with all this volleyball activity.

And doing something nice for yourself, I hope.

Happy Mother's Day!

Joe

[always_14]

Ahhh, finally found your thread...thought you were the angel materializing on threads when in need! Well, that too!

Hope you had a wonderful Mother's Day...your daughters are quite lucky to have you.

I'm thankful to have found your post tonight. Just the things I needed to read, from you and many others here. It's hard to keep a level head sometimes, when keeping a grasp on reality becomes so consuming. You reframe things so well, as do others, that the situation seems so much calmer and reasonable.

Thank you. Very much.

[messyhead10]

Hi underdog - - sorry to nick your thread UD just wanted to be respond to wonder and david's thoughts - this is quite a deep thinking thread.

casual with me and not address the issue, keep the elephant in the living room

I think that is a biggy for me huge stumbling block - H won't address anything and anytime I have come close to the issues even gently - he has requested space or I get the old "I don't know". I have never approached him with an attitude of blame - just sort of what can we both do to sort this out.

Being in his company has left me frustrated, hurt, angry and exhausted. I think for my own sanity and mental health I have had to back off. My raging torrent of anger has calmed a little now and I feel quite serene and forgiving again - I do believe these are some of the prerequisites of DBing - that and patience by the lorry load.

Sorry UD to threadjack but there is some really great discussion on this one.

[AJ2006]

Wow! Surfing the boards and I find Betsey and H2H! It's always a joy to read your posts, Betsey. I was having a bad day and you put me right back on track. I'm not asking you to come read my sitch. I think I'm doing OK and I know how draining it is to soak in the pain posted here. It's just nice to read some of your philosophy again. Of course if it's not on my thread I don't have to worry about watching out for the 2X4.

I'm glad to see you are moving on and I really wish you the best. DavidM, you better not wait 2 years for that date. She will be long gone by then. Betsey is a hottie!

AJ (aka HH)

[DavidM]

David--I'm not quite sure what to do with that 2 year postponed date proposal?

Uh, Betsey, if that's the case I'm thinking there is NO hope for YOU!
Actually if your D was final last May, and mine will be final this Friday +/-.... well, heck, why wait two years!

But seriously, I am really relating to what Nickel was saying about just talking and being friends again. NOT feeling like you have to dissect the R everytime you talk. Course it will be a while for THAT. W has really gone into detachment mode. Pretty much avoids seeing me and since we don't have to be around to swap out the kids it's pretty easy. She kept them all day yest instead of me picking them up at 8am when I get off my midshift... Brought them to the house about 7:15pm and didn't even come in, pulled in, they got out, got there stuff and off she went. If I had to write the scenario... I'd say that's how it will be for at least a couple of months after the D is final. She has said she wants to date, etc... But then again I think she's going to find that most guys in their mid 40's are cruising for something she isn't looking for!!! And they'll move on pretty quick. Or they are really screwed up in the head when it comes to R's like OM (VB or Virgin Boy!) was.

So I don't have to go back and read 4600 (!) posts... what was the Reader's Digest vers. of your sitch? And where do things stand know w/ XH???
Any possibility of a R? What has changed for the better in your R w/ X? Anything?

[Underdog]

David--I think many would chime in and say there's no hope for me. I'll take that as a compliment! Any chance we went to HS together? (I grew up in Northern VA...)

You don't have time to read 3 years of material? What's wrong with you? Seriously, I don't know if there's a reader's digest version of my story... I'm not one for short cuts.

My XH and I have 2 girls, and we're as good friends as one could possibly be post-D. We can "hang out" with one another alone or with friends, we get along well, and I do consider him a friend. I know that if I'm in trouble, he's there to help me out.

I grow weary of asking for that help, though...

I take it you mean a possibility of a R with him? Nope. Been there, done that and I don't want the t-shirt. There's too much water under the bridge, and I really don't fancy myself banging my head against a wall trying to get a depressed man to admit that he might feel better if he would do something about it.

But on a happy note, he's a great dad and I can't imagine being divorced from a better guy. I say that tongue in cheek, but he'd laugh if he saw this. He gave me a generous gift card to Borders for Mother's Day and happily told me yesterday that I'm an awesome mother. I thanked him and then he helped me move some furniture.

We started out by avoiding each other as well. It took a lot of effort on my part to work on my feelings about what he had done and who he had become. But, at the back of my mind, I knew that if we stood any chance whatsoever of reconciling, I'd have to deal with those things and more. So I accepted the self-assigned challenge and have never looked back.

I'm not sorry for my path, and I mean that. It was extremely painful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However, I became the person I wanted to become... and someone who feels happy that the lessons are well worth it.

Got to run... take care!

Betsey

p.s. AJ--I'm still a little stunned after reading your updates.

[Underdog]

Always--Your insights are helpful, and I can see that you've done a lot of work since your own path began.

Rather, now, I find myself in a position, out of protection, where I miss the action progress in H just b/c I don't hear the words.

Words are only half of any communication, and I've been guilty of choosing mine so carefully that I could orchestrate an outcome. That's why it's so important to pay closer attention to behaviors. They tend to model the truth...

I used to want to force words. Only, I found that I wouldn't get the words I wanted (yes, I was the ultimate crazymaker). Now I choose to sit in silence and wait for the truth to emerge--in actions and behaviors. It takes some willpower (especially in the beginning) to force yourself to sit quietly and rearrange thoughts so that you're not feeding off of someone else... and once you learn to feed yourself without needing another person, that's when you tap into your own power. It's an awesome shift, but it just takes some time and lots of patience. You're getting there!

Hey Glenda!

At any rate...he did not or says he did not see any change in me. So, maybe it was never MLC....seemed like it, started the gym, lost weight, new clothes, new friends, new red truck, etc.

See above commentary on words. In my earlier days--when I chose to see Mr. Wonderful as a person who was "less than" I would do the same thing... not only withhold praise, but emote negativity. It forced him to respond negatively and then we engaged with each other in an unhealthy fashion.

Don't think for a moment that you're the only one who's been part of this unfortunate dynamic. It's just part of a long term dance that I bet most of us were unaware would have catastrophic results. Bet you and I can tell them immediately in others, though.

I guess he just figured too little, too late...but in all honesty his attitude had a lot to do with why I didn't seek out help before.

Boy, is there ever a lesson in paying attention to things because they're right and not because of what anyone else is saying or thinking...

And I'm reminded of something that was present in the past and is seemingly true in the present as well...

Not terribly long ago, one of the thermometers I used in detecting Mr. Wonderful's happiness factor was through photographs. I happened to be the family photographer, and would take pictures of the girls with or without him. In the latter years of our M, the pictures became a silent warning bell for me--because his face clearly showed the anger and unhappiness he was feeling inside. When I asked him why his face reflected those things, he denied. "You just caught me when D9 was doing X." Or, I turned around when I was talking to someone else... all things I chose to dismiss but knew deep down inside were telling me what I needed to know.

I knew this, but allowed his words to convince me to remain silent.

I'd long forgotten this... I hardly ever take pictures anymore, mostly because I realize that they capture the souls of the people I'm with, and at some level, it bothers me. (Yikes! I need to do something with this now!)

However, I grabbed my digital camera on Friday afternoon to capture my D9 in her goggles and motorcycle helmet as she climbed on the back seat of her dad's new Gold Wing. I'd been promising my family pictures of her... So I instructed Mr. Wonderful to pose as well. I looked through the lens and was VERY discouraged at the vision in front of me:

My D9, grinning from ear to ear--just happier than a pig in sh!t to be where she was--and her dad, who was wearing a scowl. The only thing I could think, I managed to say aloud, "Geez, Mr. W.! You're sitting on a gorgeous bike with a chick who is absolutely beaming with joy, and all you can muster is a scowl? Can you PLEASE smile for me?"

He managed a weak smile that didn't go to his eyes, but I captured it anyway. They drove off, with D9 waving, and left me standing in the driveway watching them go.

You know what I thought? Well, I'll tell you...

I thought to myself, "All those years you knew he was unhappy and he lied. The camera doesn't lie. Aren't you just the happiest person now, not having to be married to such an unhappy man?" I answered myself with a big, genuine smile, "YEAH! Right on!"

Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.

So the lesson for me was to take back my power. I actually think it's a lesson nearly all of us have had to learn (or should consider).

Back to work! Hugs to all...

Betsey

[MicheleTW]

Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.

Amen, sister.

-- Michele

[always_14]

UD--thanks for the analysis and notice of progress!

I remember, not long ago, the days of my Inquisition Style questioning, asking questions in 20 different ways to get answers and actually giving value to the answers in my mind, not realizing that anything that coerced is not really genuine. Ahhhhhh.

I sat and let my emotions settle and realized that I KNOW H, how he was and how expressive he was in his love for me at one time, many times. I KNOW that he is not incapable of that. So, I just let it go. Quietly, patiently. And ya know, he started opening up, talking, with sincerity and authenticity, for the first time I felt safe in believing him and not the pack of lies that usually comes from his mouth.

All in all, if I know that if I have to ask, it's not gonna be an answer that is sincere, truthful, so why seek that? I'd rather wait for the truth. I also realize that those kind of questions, about guaging emotions, are inherently "loaded" with only 1 type of response that's acceptable. "Do you love me?" Well, that's a set up. That's aggravating to H...b/c it's not about emotions anyway, it's about the behaviors that caused the emotional shifts. It's not about whether he loves me or wants to be with me and the percentage shifts in each desire, but rather the behaviors and issues that drive the emotions.

So, one step at a time, in our own ways, we're seeing how to get there.

[wonder]

You have to remember the the WAS feels the entire time that they've been talking about the problem forever, and at the same time they felt like the LBS was the one not wanting to talk about it or fix it.

So, when I walked out, when I left, I wanted him to let me go. I wanted him to let it go. I wanted to find our way back without all the relationship crap we've been emersed in. We had so much crap around us that we couldn't see our hand in front of our face. I was no longer wanting to talk my way back there. I wanted to start doing stuff for me, him to start doing stuff for him and for us to mutually find our way back to each other. The irony at this time is that the LBS is more interested in reestablishing commitment by words than they are and just working to cultivate the relationship.

Hi Nickel,

I think a lot of WAS feel the way you describe feeling, but also think it's dangerous to assume all of them do. Many of the LBSs I've met here are definitely interested in working on the R as well as in talking about it. A lot of them work their butts off, actually.

That may not be the case with your XH. But I don't know how one can work on something effectively without addressing it upfront and fully. Otherwise isn't it all just a bunch of assumptions being made about who wants what?

Although a WAS might want to go off and do whatever and just find their way back, I think it's important to note here that to some LBSs, this is simply unacceptable behavior within a committed R. One of the things my long-ago therapist suggested to me (which turned out true in my case) is that everyone he'd ever treated in that sitch was dealing with unhappiness that's more about self than about marriage.

My best guess is that the interest in hanging on through that wanes considerably when the LBS spends more time with folks who don't put them through that kind of wondering, whether those folks are friends, OP or whatever.

I reached a point about a year before we D'd that until my XH was able to conduct himself as an adult in a R, I was not all that interested in even a friendship. I'd held out hope that he'd come to that place because I care deeply, but the reality is he's still working on that one, though some definite progress has been made.

One of the best conversations we've ever had started with me telling him that he needed to grow up and stop wishing to go back in time but to USE the time he had right here, right now, in the actual circumstances he was in to do something different.

The way he describes it to me today is that he didn't want to deal with himself and what his leaving had done to our R... and that facing his own self was the biggest thing required of him in dealing with that elephant in the room. For me, I'd rather not be in R with someone who needs to skirt what's real for me to make himself comfortable.

It's like when you fear something so much it becomes bigger and bigger in your mind, and if you just talk about it and get it all in the open, it goes away a lot faster.

"I made some mistakes, you made some mistakes, we hurt each other, but now you know what you know, I know what I know and those are all very good things, must we talk about all the things that went wrong? Must we continue to communicate in the same way? Let's just start over...Hi, I'm Nickel. I like skiing, golf, tennis, and having a great laugh. You are?"

Maybe, to feel safe, some WAS need to start over and not be willing to have frank and honest conversations about the reality between you until it's resolved.

But to feel safe, some LBSs also need to process all of it... until they are done, until they feel they have the answers they need to move forward. I know that for this LBS, I have NO desire to dwell on that past pain, but I'm sure not going to skim over it and not deal with it head-on so that it can just resurface down the road in some other way. If my XH approached me in this way, quite honestly, he wouldn't get the time of day.

Acknowledging and talking about the hurt until both parties feel resolved with it can be a big part of getting back to a place of trust. It's a loving act.

Shirley Glass, Michele and others talk about this with As, but I suspect that for some people, the very act of leaving the M feels enough of a betrayal where some of those same feelings would surface. It can be very much a trauma.

Sure, some people do get stuck in that trauma place. But many just need their time to process it, and to decide if they want to take a risk with someone who's already hurt them, especially if there are other options (and really, there are always other options).

~ wonder

[DavidM]

One of the things my long-ago therapist suggested to me (which turned out true in my case) is that everyone he'd ever treated in that sitch was dealing with unhappiness that's more about self than about marriage.

Hey Wonder... Boy does this sound familar! Why is it then that for the past 14 months it's all been YOUYOUYOU did this to me? When WILL it end? I am so tired of it all, I'm at the point that I almost welcome the D being final this Friday. And I sincerely hope W comes to a place where she realizes what her issues are and how to resolve them. She says she knows she has issues and defines some of them but then turns around and gets angry (in her quiet way) w/ me and you can just hear the venom/hurt/anger in her voice.

But to feel safe, some LBSs also need to process all of it... until they are done, until they feel they have the answers they need to move forward. I know that for this LBS, I have NO desire to dwell on that past pain, but I'm sure not going to skim over it and not deal with it head-on so that it can just resurface down the road in some other way.

I most definitely would want to discuss this to death; as a matter of fact that's what she says we needed to do in 1989 and didn't! I don't want to beat her up over this; I want to come to an understanding of who did what or not and how that affected our PERCEPTIONS of each other and the M.
I'm just so tired of it all. As is she. I pray that in 6, 8, 10 months she'll want to sit down and talk, be around me and just spend time together and see what happens. Not counting on it though.

[GratefulMama0204]

Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.

I feel like you are speaking my soul's truth as well.

I am glad you are posting. It is wonderful seeing someone who came out the other end of hell more complete than ever.

Isn't it interesting that we wouldn;t wish the pain we experienced on our worst enemies, yet it caused us all to take stock of our life and become who we always were destined to be.

Thanks for posting.

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.

Sometimes I find it terribly ironic how so many of us go through such similar paradigms. I remember telling XH how disappointed I was. [My honesty sometimes, well, okay, lots of times, gets me into trouble. I loved XH a lot from the start but I had what I know was a stand-offish character. Too many prior abandonments for emotional trust to just bubble to the surface. I remember him telling me how different he was and why I should trust him to mean he would love me and want to be with me always.] In our years together, I did love him and learned to trust him...giving love, heart, and soul. I think it was too much...and I doubt the guardians around my heart will ever open the gate that wide again. But, I've been thinking about this very recently and then to read the same type of thoughts on your thread makes me wonder if the LBS goes through similar MLT transitions to the WAS who is in MLC. I still think XH is in MLC. He is like a teenager and it is all about me, me, me....or so it seems. I guess I don't really know and will never really know. I'm just pleased that I'm learning to let go of those things over which I have NO control.

Tonight was power tool night again for me. I'm prepping the subfloor and will be heading out to get 1/4" plywood to put over that before the carpet gets here for my bedroom. I'm not sure if my friend and I are going to try our hand at carpet installation or just install the padding....probably the latter and then I need to hire a carpet installer. I'm going to post some pics of bathroom on my space and I'll get some of the bedroom on soon, too.

I'm becoming a whiz at this stuff. Well, if you can call six weeks to remodel a bathroom a whiz but I also had a bout of neuritis in there and I can only work on the house stuff Friday night and Saturday due to work schedule of day job and two clinics otherwise.

I'm glad you and Michele are posting again. i haven't posted to my own thread much lately. No time and little inclination. Not sure what that says about me.

[kml]

. i haven't posted to my own thread much lately. No time and little inclination. Not sure what that says about me.

Uh...it means you've been busy remodeling!!!!! You rock, girlfriend!

Ellie

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Thanks, Ellie. I will honestly tell you my 50-something body feels like it has been hit by rocks many mornings. I am quickly coming up on the one year anniversary of sleeping wherever, on whatever and the desire to get my bed out of storage [no room for it in apartment and here I made decision not to until flooring is in bedroom -- great inspiration to get 'er done] is at an alarmingly high level! I'm back to sleeping on a floor mat. I don't know what I was thinking when I got an inflatable air bed a few months ago to get by. I think the dogs must have used it as a trampoline while I was gone during the day...it's flatter than a pancake and one of them chewed the cord to the pump...not all the way through but enough I don't want to risk a homestyle perm plugging it in.

I'm still going to count the positive blessings. It beats the heck out of a park bench by golly.

My stop tonight between jobs is Home Depot again. They know me on a first name basis. Time to pick up the plywood for the over floor and call to see if the carpet is in.

kc

[koshka]

Betsey,

Happy Annivorcery! Leave it to you to find a way to make this a celebration!

I just want to say that paying for D12's braces is not going to be a problem.

Shouldn't Mr. W be kicking in on that? Seems to me that you should be able to use the hot tub money to take yourself somewhere you wouldn't need a hot tub, like, say, Jamaica? It's like when XW started talking about the porch swing in our D negotiations, and her L turned to her and said, "Who gets the porch?" Your house is your house, and D12's braces should be a shared expense, shouldn't it?

Anyway, again I say, "Happy Annivorcery!" Does Hallmark have a little card I can carry in my wallet listing the "traditional" and "modern" annivorcery gifts?

Thanks,

Joe

[Underdog]

Joe-

Okay, you got me there! If they made a line like that, I'd probably buy one... it doesn't seem like all that long ago that Meredith and I were shopping for birthday cards for our XH's in a mall (they weren't X then). We were both searching for a line that addressed birthday cards to estranged husbands. Alas, we didn't find any.

Rest assured, Mr. Wonderful and I are splitting the bill for D12's braces. It's just hefty, and requires a $1K down payment to proceed. I let him know that I could cover the deposit, and he could take over the payments after I complete my half (a month or 2 at most).

After 3 1/2 years, I don't think you have to worry about me having to go after Mr. Wonderful for money on behalf of our girls. He's been fair and equitable all along. Oh, and he's also been happy to agree to consult with my friend on the hot tub installation. It all worked out, and probably will for the indefinite future. (Plus he doesn't need to know about the hockey bets I make on the side, does he???)

Say, instead of keeping a wallet sized reminder of the type of annivorcery, what about we make a pact to get rid of a marital asset every year? I'm starting by ridding myself of the hot tub! You might consider getting rid of the porch...

Okay, time to prod D12 up to bed. We've just had a grueling evening watching hockey (can you tell Mom's bet was NOT on the Oilers?) and finishing out American Idol. She's crashed on the couch, and I need to make sure she has all her volleyball crap for her games tomorrow.

Now that's been even more entertaining than the thought of celebrating my first annivorcery.

Party on!

Betsey

p.s. Pam, I'm glad you're just slow. I'm happy this isn't a dilemna for you, so thanks for your imput.

[MicheleTW]

Okay so who had summer soltice as an annivorcery? Was that Michele? I'm not at that point yet.

Yes, it was summer solstice. The perfect time for the pagan ritual of divorce.



The shedding of marital assets is such an interesting point, B., and, like usual, you and I are on the same wavelength.

I participated in a neighborhood yard sale last Saturday. Made $435. But... sold a bunch of stuff I no longer needed. The things I chose to sell represnted a life I'm no longer living, and it felt good to get rid of it. I am truly in the purge mode.

I have all of XH's old law books in the basement. He doesn't want them and I haven't had the time nor inclination to tote those suckers up and put them on the curb.

But it's on my to-do list!

Anyone else shedding?

-- Michele

[wonder]

Michele was the solstice survivor! And Betsey the spring fling. (party on there, Bets).

Is this the date of the court deal, or the final date on the piece of paper we're talking about? Mine were in mid-March and mid-June.

The first one slipped by this year unnoticed... and last year I spent the June date lounging on a beach with friends who seem to be quite easily able to say/show they love me. So... I may be celebrating that. Or repeating it. We'll see.

Ahhh... shedding.

I did a lot of this a while back. There's still some sports equipment he doesn't want in the basement and his old printer & scanner I'm donating on Saturday. And a box of photos I've let sit down there because I haven't wanted to throw them all out or sort through them. Um, and the wedding dress in the closet, which I've tried to sell to no avail.

I'm in the process of selling my house, but that feels much more mine anyway since he only actually lived here 6 months and gave it to me free and clear in the D.

But XH loves to cook and has always loved to buy kitchen paraphrenalia... and I have all of it here. Some of this may well get shuffled off to new owners when I (someday) start packing.

Here's a little story for you:
Last week, I found a heavy sweatshirt that XH bought for himself and I to share on our first-ever weekend trip to Maine together (that would be in 1990!). For some reason, this 16 year old piece of clothing still looks like it's new.

I wore it to yoga class. Kept me warm in all this rain. And that felt fine.

~ wonder

p.s. Michele, will you come run my next yard sale? I had one last fall and made $70... only by selling stuff to my helpers.

[therabbithole]

Hey Wonder!

As always, I try to be careful to put it from my own perspective...sometimes it just comes out way to general. I don't believe for a second that all WAS feel the same way and all LBS feel the same way...because honestly, each realtionship has it's own quirks and dynamics.

By no means did I mean to imply and LBS's don't want to work on the R nor did I mean to suggest they don't work their butts of. My point was that (in my case) at a time in which the words or the actions got through to the LBS, the WAS is in a whole different mind set with a a lot of anger and resentment, not to mention hurt.

That may not be the case with your XH. But I don't know how one can work on something effectively without addressing it upfront and fully. Otherwise isn't it all just a bunch of assumptions being made about who wants what?

Actually, my XH did tell me that he wanted to work on the R, after I announced we needed to spend some time apart from each other - but not ONE second before he thought I was serious about leaving him. Again, we had severe communication issues. I felt like I had tried and tried to no avail to talk about things and being open and upfront. How I felt at that moment in which he was "willing to do anything", I had thrown in the towel. Now, he said he was willing to do anything, but still was relying on my to have the solution. Not once did he suggest we talk about what's going on, he left it up to me. I felt as the WAS that I had been unhappy for so long and I he knew I was unhappy, just not THAT unhappy. Again, he knew I was unhappy, but failed to do anything about it because he was just fine and dandy. I tried to talk to him and it always ended up in a fight...somehow when I communicated that I was unhappy and I needed X, Y, and Z he felt as though I was blaming him for not doing X, Y, and Z, and he felt that because he didn't need X, Y, and Z it was easier to try and convince me that I didn't need it either, rather than just giving me X, Y, and Z.

So here we are, I just made him severely unhappy by announcing that I wanted to leave and spend some time apart, and he says "I need X, Y, and Z." Yeah, well I was so far down the path of being hurt, angry and resentful that X, Y, and Z were no longer even on my radar screen for wanting from him nevertheless to give him.

Although a WAS might want to go off and do whatever and just find their way back, I think it's important to note here that to some LBSs, this is simply unacceptable behavior within a committed R.

You're absolutely right. But note, that you say "committed R". And in my world there's more than just affairs and leaving to do whatever to find your way back as unacceptable behavior in a committed R. In my world, the fact that my XH emotionally withheld from me was unacceptable in a committed R. The fact that I told him what I needed that instead of talking with me about why I needed it or working hard to give it to me, he instead tried to convince me that it was useless. He devalued how I felt because it meant it was too much work for him. He made me feel bad about needing him. That to me is unacceptable behavior in a committed R. And it's not like I wasn't around for years with those violations, because I was. I guess in my mind, I gave him some time because I loved him and things didn't change. I didn't violate the committed R during that time, I was busting my ass. On the other hand, the fact is if he was busting his ass after I left and put everything into learning, communicating, etc...then as the WAS I'd have been there listening and discussing. Make sense?

For me, I'd rather not be in R with someone who needs to skirt what's real for me to make himself comfortable....Maybe, to feel safe, some WAS need to start over and not be willing to have frank and honest conversations about the reality between you until it's resolved.

Wonder, I never wanted to skirt the issue, I wanted to let be what happened. I left for us to get some perspective here, to get some distance...and I couldn't do that with him constantly panicking about me not coming back. I just wanted him to sit quietly for a while, I wanted him to be the person I fell in love with. I wanted to find that person again. (granted, i know he was always there), but because he constantly wanted to talk about the issue, we had the same conversations over and over the same way. It's different if my XH had taken the time to say "hey, we've got something really wrong here, I know I love her, why doesn't she know that?" Then take some action. Instead it seems my XH (still stuck on this today) thinks "the problems we had weren't that bad, I was good with the way things were, what did she think was so wrong about our marraige, so wrong about me?" There is a huge difference in thought there. One is all about him and what he's lost, the other is about him and what he wants.

Really it wasn't about feeling safe, it was about breaking out of the pattern we were in. I was guilty of communicating the same way because I still saw him the same way. Again, the biggest difference for me NOW, and that happened quickly after my divorce was final, is that my XH started behaving like himself again and I got to see it. I started rethinking my life and my values, and my beliefs...I couldn't do that with him constantly wanting to talk to me about how he felt. His tactics weren't action, they were words. "We've been together 9 years.", "We've had some really great times together.", "I cant' believe you're going to throw this all away." Again, it wasn't that I didn't feel safe talking to him, I just had nothing to say anymore. Years of talking, telling him what I needed, and years of him telling me that's not what I needed and that I live in a fantasy world...blah blah blah. I continually had this itch for more in our relationship, and KNEW he was witholding it from me.

Shirley Glass, Michele and others talk about this with As, but I suspect that for some people, the very act of leaving the M feels enough of a betrayal where some of those same feelings would surface. It can be very much a trauma.

Sure, some people do get stuck in that trauma place. But many just need their time to process it, and to decide if they want to take a risk with someone who's already hurt them, especially if there are other options (and really, there are always other options).

I have no doubt what I did causes him severe trauma. He and I talk occasionally, and I've seen first hand how sad, depressed, hurt, angry, and resentful he is. But again, I've been spending the time trying to break through that and communicate differently. The difference is that he is where I was emotionally when I left. Trying to decide if I even wanted to work at it because it just seems so much easier to start over with someone else...no baggage. It's funny, because he's using my own tactics on me and I know how he felt before. We've switched places. He's got a GF and he's struggling because he loves her, yet when he goes to think about his future, his heart hurts - physically hurts, because all he pictures is me and him and our kids and grandkids. He doesn't feel like he loves me the way he should, "he'll always love me", but he feels something different for his GF. He feels comfortable with her, and he can't ever imagine feeling that way about me again but doesn't understand why if that's the case why his heart hurts and why he thinks about me when he pictures his future. I tell you, I've been there, it's a sh!tty place to be....but I'd describe it differently now that I have some clarity. I say it is the most awful pain, to FEEL like you love someone so much, and not understand why you don't want anything to do with them. The head and the heart...the best of friends, yet the greatest of enemies.

[Underdog]

Wonder,

I was talking about the decree day, which also happened to be the court day for me. I know your sitch was a little different, so you're fortunate enough to be able to pick the date of your "celebration". Or should we be calling this a "salebration" from now on?

We'll both hire Michele to host our yard sales! I didn't even make $70 the 2 times I had them, and I had a ton of stuff out there for sale. Of course, it didn't help that I had the gypsies present, and they stole a ton of stuff. The sad part is that it was D12's--and I had told her that whatever she sold, she'd keep the booty since we were moving.

Nickel is an e-bay person, and I'm considering going that route next time. Maybe a good place for your wedding dress? I'm keeping mine, as D12 says she'd like to consider it some day. We'll see.

I haven't gone through the photos yet, as I'll be having to divide them into 2 piles, and I just won't muster the energy to devote to that task right now. I have some painting to do and that really is my top priority.

I see no reason to discard stuff for the sake of discarding or to make a statement. So I can completely understand your willingness to keep a marital souvenir. I have plenty of them myself, and most of them are absolutely fine with me.

I think it's just something for me to consider, because it's consistent in the theme of letting go and moving on--to be able to let go of things that used to matter or mean something but no longer do. I like this idea myself.

Any chance your celebration might move to the Rockies in June? I've got some wine with your name on it (red and white), and a trip to the metaphysical store as well as some sightseeing and the offer to borrow a car to go off on solo jaunts. I can also book you a session with our favorite psychic friend.

Nickel and I did a free online tarot reading yesterday. Man, that was spooky! Try it at facadedotcom... I'd be interested to hear what you receive if you're willing to share.

Michele and everyone else who I didn't address last night--it's so nice of you to visit and offer your kind words. They're always appreciated.

Okay, must get to work. It's going to be a busy day, and I need to leave early to watch D12's middle school volleyball game. It's more fun than I can express because it's like watching Bad News Bears. She has the patience of a saint, and I find that even more entertaining. Today she's playing the school of one of her club teammates. I asked her if she and T were going to have a one-on-one game and all she could do was grin. I wouldn't miss it for the world!

So, let's all show the love today. I'm still feeling good about having last year behind me once and for all. Life is finally feeling happy to my pores once and for all. Who'd have thunk?

Betsey

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Nickel, I so appreciate that you share your story. Much as I say I'm not analyzing anymore, that isn't totally true.

In my world, the fact that my XH emotionally withheld from me was unacceptable in a committed R. The fact that I told him what I needed that instead of talking with me about why I needed it or working hard to give it to me, he instead tried to convince me that it was useless. He devalued how I felt because it meant it was too much work for him. He made me feel bad about needing him. That to me is unacceptable behavior in a committed R.

When I read that statement, I felt like I should have been the one to throw in the towel. XH worked remote and was gone for 3 weeks and then home 3 when he first met his on-line honey who turned into the real thing later. I dealt with everything while he was gone including grown daughter and kids who had moved back home, my own work, school, house, etc. Had a lot of troule keeping up, particularly with the house, always felt it was my responsibility as the "mom and wife." And, he withheld his emotional and physical affections from me at times, I guess as a punishment. He would express to me he needed X, Y, Z, and for anything I said he would tell me I couldn't possibly feel that way, etc.

I know I've said before I was a mess. Now, that I have been on ADHD meds, sorted out a bunch of stuff in counseling, and done biofeedback therapy, I can see exactly how I would have handled the situation differently. I would ask him for a specific action plan. At that time, I didn't ignore him as he says I did, I just couldn't ever figure out how to do X,Y,Z all by myself and he never offered to help or offered a solution to help, he just offered that this was a problem for him and left me with the impression that I needed to fix it and that I could fix it "if I wanted to." I beat myself up so badly over that.

Don't know if you know anything about adults with ADHD [or any age with it I suppose] but the more stressed you become, the more overwhelming everything becomes, and the less able the person is to function in anything.

I know not all WAS are the same. I think women and men are totally different in this. I've heard or read somewhere that whether or not a marriage has a chance to be revitalized after a split depends more on which gender left than anything else. Don't know if that is true, i.e. there is more chance for a reconciliation if the woman left than the man.

Sorry, Bets for hijacking your thread. I guess I should take this over to my own and invite Nickel or stop back by her's. I have been so busy I've just stopped analyzing. I don't think it is because I have figured it out but because I'm just to tired to think about it most days. Perhaps I will yet get to the point I feel I am better off without him and my family but I don't think I'm there yet.

kc

[The_Colorado_Bulldog]

Bets,

How are you?! I'm glad to see you posting again!!!

We need to get together for a lemonade, aka a four gallon margarita (you know the ones I'm talking about), sometime while it's hot outside.

Hope you are well!

p.s. I'm worried for BVP since the Broncos drafted this Jay Cutler kid! Guess he's not the QB of the future like I'd hoped.

[wonder]

Nickel,

Thanks for shedding more light on your story... though I hope you know I was speaking more generally rather than analyzing your personal behavior.

That said, what you say here is exactly what Michele writes about in DR/DB/etc:

The difference is that he is where I was emotionally when I left. Trying to decide if I even wanted to work at it because it just seems so much easier to start over with someone else...no baggage. It's funny, because he's using my own tactics on me and I know how he felt before. We've switched places.

She says this is a very common occurrence. You actually hit on what I meant about wanting to find their way back being an unrealistic view in many cases-- that it's a one-sided view based on what one person wants.

My XH wanted me to sit patiently as well... I think he actually said that to me once and I believe I told him where to go, got quite upset and asked him to leave. The last time we talked about this, he said he couldn't believe he actually asked that of me because it seems like such a bad idea now to think I'd be up for that plan.

To me, the whole run away and come back to find the shoe on the other foot (or vice versa in the LBS case) is a great example of letting emotions run wild and make decisions for us... it doesn't strike me as maturity. And I'm saying that as someone who's been there, done it personally, so not casting any stones by any means.

As a yoga instructor I recently studied with put it recently, a spiritual relationship (marriage, friendship, etc) is one in which both parties make a commitment that, no matter how bad it gets, we'll figure it out and we're not going anywhere.

I hear what you're saying about the emotional withholding... about it not being acceptable. But I also suspect it's quite often not intentional or even something people are aware they are doing. I'm not saying anyone should accept this if it is harming them... only that my personal experience has been that those on the receiving end are quick to assign motives and intentions that are usually not even there.

Bets... Ahhh. Now, I get the date thing! Here we have the wait period and so the decree isn't valid until then-- you know how we are out here in MA-- we think everyone does things the way they do in Boston.

I've decided any "marking" I do (and I'm not one for that--you pegged me right) will be about me and my growth and definitely not the end of the M. That works for me personally... but then I don't have your stellar & quirky sense of humor!

I am looking at June dates most definitely. We open the summer exhibition this week at "the office," so between this and a bunch of client work, I'm a bit behind in my R&R planning. My coach gave me "homework" to squeeze in that planning and some F-U-N this weekend, so you'll be hearing from me.
~ wonder

[slowly]

Hi there Betsey - Just bookmarking your awesome thread!

Good to see you here again. Slowly

[MicheleTW]

Bets, I am going to write down what I just read to you from "Why Is It Always About You?" by Sandy Hotchkiss, because it might be helpful to others:

When deflecting the shame projected by [another person], resist the urge to retaliate. Don't try to challenge or enlighten this person either. The [other person] has a lot at stake in keeping unconscious processes unconscious . If you try to tamper with this, you may escalate the situation to your own detriment or discomfort.

This was written about narcissists, but I think it's true with all people who are tormented by shame or crippling self-esteem. Some people would rather remain safely unconscious than risk the heartache and change consciousness might require.

The book goes on to suggest that you work with a person such as this as if they are two or three years old -- not talk down to them, but speak clearly, firmly and with respect.

I really love this book and have found it really useful.

Your pal,
Michele

[Underdog]

Michele--I wrote it down right after we got off the phone! Plus I forwarded it in a message to H2H (which I was composing when you called). Thanks!!!

Nicola--Welcome! I love Laurie! She's an awesome coach, and I found her dose of realism and optimism exactly what I needed when I needed it the most. You're in great hands! Please tell her I send my regards, because she's an awesome woman.

Gosh, your posts to MH have been great.

Thanks. I love to help others, especially if I can help them shortcut some pain and agony that might be avoided.

I am in the space of really feeling compassionate towards H most of the time (still angry sometimes), but like you, not wanting to be with someone who truly cannot love me. He says himself that he can't feel love for anyone but his kids, and doesn't even know what it is.

Boy, I understand, Nicola. The anger part is about how I feel, but everything else can muster some compassion. I figure it must be very tough to be so confused and so unable to choose a path which might help heal and foster a happier outcome (even if that means taking the steps necessary to end a marriage in a kind, adult fashion).

Well, pretty sad...and to be honest, pretty annoying if love is a choice (which I believe it is). But that's where he is and I can't change that.

It IS sad. And definitely annoying when you're standing on the side of the fence that can offer a better vantage point. I felt that way for a very long time. Actually, I still do.

For example, Mr. Wonderful had a fishing trip this past weekend with his buddies. They took the motor home up to the mountains and got a head start on Friday. So when he called me last night to tell me he was home, I was more than a little surprised to hear that sullen attitude pouring forth in our conversation.

I'm seeing concrete evidence that pretty much everything we do reflects a choice or series of choices. How hard would it be for him to come home and say to me, "I had a great time!"??? Instead, I heard how hot it was, how the fish weren't biting, how poor he slept... all the things that I had pretended weren't issues before but really were.

He is in counseling, and I do hope he gets some peace from that.

That's a wonderful thing to pray for, Nicola. I still find it in my heart to pray for the father of my kids as well. I honestly don't want him to be so unhappy.

Ten months isn't that long in the scheme of things. Maybe his C will help him own some of the unhappiness he's slung your way? Hope for the best, Nicola. Not the best outcome you want, but the best outcome that you need. Then you'll win 100% of the time.

Even though I never imagined my D being a positive thing, it turned out to be a very positive outcome. I don't make excuses for his piss poor attitude anymore, and I don't have to feel as though I need to downplay my attributes and strengths so as to make him feel better about himself.

And it took a lot of hard work to get to that point.

I'm glad you popped in... please feel free to drop in with comments anytime!

Betsey

[Underdog]

Nicola,

One other thought that some distance has given me personally. I'm not saying this is true for anyone else but me, though... so please know this post script isn't any type of projection or other form of backhanded implication.

Now that it's been one full year since my D was finalized, I've had plenty of time to think and mull. I've had the chance to go back and take another look at a puzzle--where for the longest time, the pieces didn't fit, but I had jammed them in to make them seem as though they fit.

What I see now is that they had not fit for a really long time, if ever. And as I ruminate all the years where I felt an uneasy sense of foreboding and despair, I see that I had every reason to feel that way. He offered me comfort in the way of the words that I wanted to hear, but his actions clearly spoke to an alternate truth.

Now this puzzle might just make others here very uncomfortable. It made ME uncomfortable even thinking about it. But I'm getting more bold in my self posed questions, and I'm forcing myself to take a good hard look at the person I was and the feelings that seemed to dog me around every corner.

I know I was a self-professed crazymaker (which was true), but the most pervasive feeling I can remember about our marriage was that my XH didn't love me.

There, I said it.

I often felt as though he was keen on the idea of what a good marriage looked like, but lacked the feelings required to make a real marriage happy and healthy. I'm not saying I didn't have my own poop to put on the table, but I did love him. I didn't love the idea of him, but him. And my most uneasy feeling for months now has been the fact that I honestly don't think Mr. W. ever really loved ME. Yes, Me=Betsey.

The thought used to cause me despair and anguish. Oddly enough, it doesn't do that for me anymore. The truth no longer holds power over me, and it no longer hurts. It's a little uncomfortable admitting this now, but that's all that I left in my head to wrestle with.

Now, I'm free to find something special with someone who wants to love me--and definitely vice versa.

Life is odd...

Betsey

[MicheleTW]

What about arranged marriages?

I think people in arranged marriages go in with different intentions. They may not have the intention that this is a romantic relationship. They may not expect a "love connection" but a practical connection. They may not look to their spouse to meet their emotional needs.

They may grow to love. They may experience romance. They may find their emotional lives richer. But I doubt they go into with those expectations.

While those of us in non-arranged marriages expect the romance to last, for our spouse to be our soul-mate, our "better half", for them to meet our emotional needs -- even if we can't define exactly what that means to us.

As a rulz girl, let me say that an arranged marriage might work because both parties know the rules from the outset -- "We must stay in this marriage because it means so much to our families." That's a big, honking rule, if you ask me!

It was all about what others perception of him/us was. I will have to examine that statement. I don't think I really give a whit at this point but Michele might gently point out I should give that closer examination.

Ah, you know me too well!

Your lower-48 pal,
Michele

[Underdog]

Hey Glenda,

I didn't mean to ignore your interesting question earlier... was pressed for time. But I say what Michele said!

I think there are just as many expectations for arranged marriages (if not more) as there are for love matches. Besides, I think that element of disappointing my parents makes me a little sick.

All I can say is that it's a good thing I was born in 1962 and not 1762. Well, unless I was a boy... and marrying a girl with a big dowry. The other side of that coin just sounds so hideous.

That's what we get for being modern girls. Now we get to deal with the aftermath of women's lib, changing gender roles and finally seeing that there is natural world order in them.

Arrggghhh.

[wonder]

It IS sad. And definitely annoying when you're standing on the side of the fence that can offer a better vantage point. I felt that way for a very long time. Actually, I still do.

Me three. Seriously, I think a lot of people go through those feelings for a while. And... eventually... let them go when we're ready, when it's time, when it makes sense.

Now this puzzle might just make others here very uncomfortable. It made ME uncomfortable even thinking about it. But I'm getting more bold in my self posed questions, and I'm forcing myself to take a good hard look at the person I was and the feelings that seemed to dog me around every corner.

Isn't it the things that make us uncomfortable that are most worth exploring? That's where we're out of the comfort zone... and often hitting something.

You have come a long way, baby.

~ wonder

[koshka]

Betsey,

the most pervasive feeling I can remember about our marriage was that my XH didn't love me.

Ain't hindsight grand? I did my own crazymaking, too, and ya know what? XW still didn't love me, either.

You have a great thread going here (as usual), but at some point I need to sleep.

Thanks,

Joe

[WindyCityBeth]

Betsey -

I hope that you don't mind me hopping on here and posting a quick note to you! I read your post today about your realizations about your XH. Thank you for posting that! You have made me think all day - and in a very good way! I too think my STBXH loved me but only in a very selfish way. I never felt like I was in a partnership. Life was always about him. And I lost myself. Completely. Gained alot of weight. And that is the reason he had the affair. He resented me for the weight - because it reflected poorly on him. I've lost most of that weight now (the bomb diet does wonders) and he still decided that he couldn't leave the OW. But, after reading your post and really thinking about that puzzle, I can now really start to put the pieces together. I am still very far from being done with that task but at least I have a good start. Thanks again for sharing that.

Also, I think I am going to copy and paste some of your comments in my thread. I hope you don't mind - I promise I'll give you all the credit!

WCB

[koshka]

Very long day at work today/tonight, and I still hope to post some more thoughts over here, but this rings a bell:

Did you know it's a bonafide side symptom of menopause? That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Where have I read a post like this before? Was it something to do with a gall bladder last fall, perhaps?

My thread...must post....

[Underdog]

Welcome old, dear friends and new!

Looks like you've all managed to carry on without me today... always a good sign. I'm so happy to hear from Meredith!

I just want to check in and say hello, because I'm heading for CA on Friday and work is going to be crazy busy for me tomorrow.

So ya'll have a happy Memorial Day weekend!

Betsey

[MicheleTW]

don't you think it is unethical for yoru T to be saying that
"it would take years for H to change and that he would never be as good a partner to me as I could find in someone else"?

I disagree. I think this is exactly what a therapist should do. My x-SIL was told something very similar by her T after couples and individual work. She said x-BIL had such a poorly developed sense of self (and alcohol and gambling addictions) that, "For a patient like this, it generally takes 5 years of very hard work for them to develop the sense of self which should have been constructed in the teen-young adult years." At x-BIL's rehab place, they told ex-SIL that he had a 15% chance of remaining sober, due to his cluster of other issues.

x-SIL took all this info and gave it a lot of thought -- and then ended the M. It was clear that x-BIL could be anyone or no one in 5 years, and x-SIL didn't want to live her life on hold, only to find she didn't like the person he became. The input of the mental health professionals helped her find clarity about what the M really was and what she needed to have in her life.

Since their D was finalized three years ago, x-BIL has struggled with addictions and depression, found a girlfriend and moved 1000 miles to be with her, sold a house, enrolled in grad school and withdrew, and is now kind of out of touch with the larger family. I think he's really in flux. And I think x-SIL did the right thing.

In my case, we saw a very respected psychiatrist for a consultation. I'll never forget it. At the conclusion of our time together, this white-haired, avuncular expert leaned with his hands on his knees and looked XH directly in the eyes: "Mr. XH, it's so interesting to me... that you are as old as you are and still so unformed." I was stunned. XH started to laugh. We never went back to that doctor. But I have come back to the word "unformed" time and time again.

T's aren't there to just sugar-coat and make nice. It's a tough job and the best ones go right to the point.

Off the soapbox, once again,
Michele

[Meredith]

PAM!!!!!!!!!

I posted on your thread too, my peanut butter friend!

Email me…

[e-mail]

I lost my previous yahoo account and found myself without anyone’s email addresses!! So prettttty please, email me!!

And yes, hi Bets!

[princess_nic]

T's aren't there to just sugar-coat and make nice. It's a tough job and the best ones go right to the point.

But he should have told H, not me. He apparently never told H that he thought H was a narcissist. It's also his opinion. Granted, he may be right, but I also believe in God's grace and in a person's ability to make big changes in their lives. I don't know if my H will be able to do that, or if I will like the person he becomes, but I'm not willing to give up just yet.

Thanks for your thoughts, Michele. The stuff about your x-SIL is interesting food for thought.

~Nicola

[MicheleTW]

But he should have told H, not me. He apparently never told H that he thought H was a narcissist. It's also his opinion. Granted, he may be right, but I also believe in God's grace and in a person's ability to make big changes in their lives.

Honey, I know what you're saying. I, too, am a firm believer in the power of God's grace in one's life. Heck, I'm a living example.

Narcissists are different breeds. If someone suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, there is no pill they can take, talk therapy won't work... the only thing which is proven to slightly change them is cognitive behavioral therapy. That just gets them to take the edge off.

Because narcissism cannot be cured. It's the hardest psychological condition to treat.

My guess is that your T told you because telling your H wouldn't make any difference. However, telling you might just change your life.

A narcissist has a compromised sense of self. In fact, the process which gives us a Self -- which usually happens in our childhood -- is stunted in a true narcissist. It's greatly affected by how the person was parented.

A narcissist is greatly motivated by shame. He or she wants to run from shame, which they see as humiliating, and often shift shame to those closest to them. For instance, a narcissist who cheats on his wife will say he did it because she got "too fat", thereby shifting all shame to HER and HER body image, rather than the cracks in his own character.

A narcissist must preserve his grandiosity and shame-lessness as a shell around him. The typical narcissist will call himself a chameleon or something like that, and sometimes feels like an imposter, this close to being found out.

You can live with narcissists. I did. My father was one. My XH was one. And I was with XH for 20 years! It can be done, but with great sacrifice. The sacrifice of you, your own goals, your own self-esteem, your own life. Because your life becomes in service to the narcissist's.

It was awfully hard for me to break free from XH, because he spun a very enticing web -- he's very charismatic and charming. His life is one great myth, and I was a true believer.

That is, until I got some distance, some therapy, and some personal growth. That's when I realized all I had lost by being his mirror for so many years.

What you do is yours. I just urge you to read up on narcissism ("Why Is It Always About You?" by Sandy Hotchkiss is excellent. I also like "The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists" by Eleanor Payson). And if your T or another T will take time to teach you about narcissism, as my T did, I think you may have a deeper insight into yourself and your own growth.

Much luck and blessings to you,
Michele

[koshka]

Pssst. Is Betsey gone?

OK, let's keep hijacking her thread!

All the talk about marriage, arranged marriages, romance, etc. is very interesting. Obviously marriage has something going for it to have endured as a way of life across so many cultural backgrounds and for such a long, long time.

It's fun for me, now that most of the pain is over, to examine beliefs about love, marriage, relationships, etc. But I'm starting to wonder if I'm in danger of "becoming an expert." Something like what Wes was saying over on Gabe's old thread. (If you missed it, he pointed out that post-D we can watch for "red flags" in every R and still miss important things, often due to blindness to our own "red flag issues.")

I spent way too much time on Yahoo personals, match.com, etc. I see women looking for some very specific traits, eye color, hobbies, etc. And the sites prompt users to "choose" that way. I didn't pick hair color or job title, but I didn't just say, "Show me a warm body," either.

Is it possible that we're all over analyzing? Maybe we'll never really understand the opposite sex. Maybe that's not a bad thing, either, since it leaves the eternal possibility for learning new things about one another. Maybe arranged marriages worked (and work) because some people really enjoy a lifetime getting to know someone as their partner. Yeah, there are love tanks and love languages and love busters and this technique and that theory and the other practice. Waves and caves and gender roles and sexual revolution and on and on, but when we get right down to it, isn't it just two people enjoying one another enough to make a commitment?

I'm tired (25 billable hours and 6+ commuting hours since yesterday morning, coming home to find a dog loose somewhere in the neighborhood or the woods) so I'm not sure I'm making sense, but I do get the feeling that there's both more and less to this whole marriage thing than what I realize, even post-D, and going forward there won't be any more guarantees than there were with XW. I'm going to have to take a woman on her word and I'm going to have to trust.

Goodnight, Gracie.

[MicheleTW]

Joe!!!

Is it possible that we're all over analyzing?

You are such a GUY! Of course we over analyze -- go with what you know! Seriously, I think it's important to come to enough self-understanding that you don't repeat your mistakes.

Folks who conjure up a dream date, and specify someone who's 6' 1, 1/2", with green eyes and a muscle car may just be limiting themselves overmuch -- a way to protect themselves? Or living in Entitlement World? I dunno and don't want to think about it.

All I know is that while you're waiting for Mr. Perfect, you might miss the serendipty of Mr. Pretty Darn Good.

Hey, Betsey! You out there?

Your girly friend,
Michele

[koshka]

A hijack is a hijack.

Nicola,

H and I have a lot in common, we enjoy each other's company, but his parents aren't people I care to spend a lot of time with, and I don't think my parents would have been impressed

How impressed were they when you and H first got together?

I think this is a societal problem: our expectations of married life are inappropriate.

I have a feeling that you're right about that. Look at all the R books, including DB/DR, that decry the expectations under which we marry these days.


Glenda,

My serious response was, when I find someone serious enough about a parternership to sign a prenup that says....if you walk, rather than stand for a marriage and partnership, you forfeit all assets you brought to the partnership. No courts, no lawyers, no judges, no shares, no disputes.

That's your serious response? I know I don't ever want to experience again what I went through with XW, but I do believe I will have to trust any future partner, and she will have to trust me. Pre-nup sounds straight out of Hollywood's seamier rep to me. It goes with the "till something better comes along" style vows. IMHO.


Mighty Michele!!!

You are such a GUY!

Thank you! I think.

Seriously, I think it's important to come to enough self-understanding that you don't repeat your mistakes.

I'm with you on that one. I just wonder if all the reading and introspection and so on will generate in me a dangerous overconfidence, a feeling that "I know this stuff," or some such.

It's not that I wouldn't intellectually know that I don't really have it all figured out. It's a concern that there might still lurk in me somewhere a feeling of "invincibility" or just plain know-it-allness.

I can cogitate all I want and it will still boil down to mutual trust and appreciation.

Or something like that. What do I know? (I know I better get some sleep before the kiddos come home or I'll be one tired Smilin' Dad, sleeping at the grille on Monday!)

Goodnight, Gracie. Err, I mean, Goodnight, Betsey.

Joe

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Joe, Yep...that was a serious response. I haven't had a lot of good experiences with people in my life that are supposed to be able to be trusted, people who are supposed to have your best interests at heart, i.e. parents to start. Not that my grandparents didn't love me but you can only imagine the kind of wow, I must be horrible thoughts that run through the mind of a four-year-old child left at her grandparents with no explanation of any sort and parents don't come back.

This was my second marriage. First was high school sweetheart, very short in that he became very ill, doctors actually said to me that he was going to die. When he did recover and got out of the hospital, he dropped off the face of the earth for over a year. I chalked that one up to being just more than a person could take and still be sane -- I paid all his medical bills (they couldn't find him either and we were married), all of is credit card bills as his only permanent address was our apartment, filed for divorce after the year and I moved on.

Now, I have XH #2 who after 25 years of marriage and over 26 years of being together just doesn't want to be married. So, at 52, I'm taking 1/2 the bills, most of the current ones racked up by XH during his MLC, half of our 401 (k), no spousal support, oh - yeah, and the cabin, 1/5th of our joint income, and I'm trying to move in a forward direction. It is going to take some time for me to dig out of this one. Any reason I should trust another person to not put me in the same predicament?

I think it was Michele's thread that was talking about goals and I expressed some of what I have done and I'm happy about most of what I've done recently but when she put in the terms of goal #1 being a loving, meaningful relationship with a man...I just had to say that isn't even a blip on my radar screen at this point in time and my walls have grown very tall to discourage anyone from even expressing an interest in me. It's self-preservation as far as I am concerned...and it isn't really totally intentional but I do realize I am doing this. I just truly do not know if I will ever reach that point of trust again and I'm just trying to be steadfast with regard to my life alone being a good life and not a bitter life. I don't feel bitter but there are times when I feel VERY angry with XH's choices. I'm not going to kid myself about that and I'm not going to kid another person that I am trusting and loving...loving yeah...trusting....hmmmmm...that's a whole 'nother ball game.

Glenda

[MicheleTW]

Joe, lean in close, because I want to tell you something:

I'm with you on that one. I just wonder if all the reading and introspection and so on will generate in me a dangerous overconfidence, a feeling that "I know this stuff," or some such.

By doing all the hard work of understanding, the outcome will actually be wonderful.

When you know so much that you realize you don't know squat -- that's what our Buddist friends call "know-nothing mind" -- you are closer to enlightenment.

With "know-nothing mind" or "beginner's mind", you are open to whatever someone or some situation brings you. So, you will meet a lovely woman and, rather than judge her immediately and decide what the outcome will be, you will say, "I have no idea where this is going or who she'll turn out to be (or who I will be when I'm around her) but that's OK. I wonder where it will go." What a cool thing. What freedom. What openness to the gifts of the universe.

Your pal,
Michele

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Michele....It isn't like I'm analyzing this really, just observing myself...I want a know nothing mind! Driving across town today, saw ex- going the other direction. I'm sure he didn't see me or even think about it being me because I was driving son's truck. I've had this huge knot in my stomach all afternoon. I haven't seen him at all since New Year's Day. You would think after six months I would not have that kind of reaction.

Joe, I think it is sooooo great that you have such a good attitude. I know you've been through a lot and worked very hard to get that attitude. Maybe we old folks really do get set in our ways.

Is Betsey on a long vacation? We might just fill up her thread.

[princess_nic]

Koshka,

How impressed were they when you and H first got together?

Supposedly, my mother always hated him (she says now). Actually, they really liked him. In fact, they still do, but they just don't like how he's treated me.

But, dare I bring this up, in an arranged marriage it wouldn't be about him, would it? It would be about a family alliance, about money and, yes, class. Oh, how politically incorrect to even bring that up! As much as we might like to think there are no longer any "classes" in N. America, there are. And I don't think my parents would have chosen someone from a working class background to marry into the upper middle-class. Now, is that even an issue? I really wonder sometimes. (Putting on my armour here!) H is educated, but his parents and sister do not have more than a high school education. They are extremely prejudiced and small-minded. They have a different set of values/expectations for themselves and others. And they think the world revolves around them and their needs. As a teacher, I really do think education plays an important role in worldview.

JMHO -
Nicola

[Underdog]

Yeah, I HAVE been on vacation! I believe my last post mentioned where I was going?

Interesting stuff here. I read Michele's book recommendation (Why is it Always About You? by Sandy Hotchkiss) over the weekend. Damn, was that book a real downer! I'm not saying it wasn't useful, but it sure as heck did not leave me with hopeful feelings about humans... I will use what I learned in managing my own personal boundaries and continue to foster independent thinking and healthy esteem in my kids. It just made me feel like I'm doing lots of stuff right with my D12. So if that's the most positive thought I took from reading, that's definitely a-ok with me. Michele... maybe time for some Nouwen?

Glenda, I saw your prerequisite for marriage and started to laugh until I read the part where you're serious. I know that Joe challenged you on that, and I think I'd have to say I feel the same way. Taking out an emotional insurance policy to insulate yourself from pain is a surefire recipe for creating a R where there is mistrust and skepticism from the get go. It's going to be the invisible wall you construct and it will prevent you from getting the intimacy you want and crave. The only way to get the sort of love you say you want is to make yourself vulnerable and allow yourself the opportunity to get hurt again. I know, I know...

Maybe I'm going to take a more narcissistic stance, but I've got some data that I've stored and that I think I want to get out here for further processing. It's all good and nothing has changed, but I feel it's time to open up the scab, do some cleaning and allow this sore to heal properly.

It took me awhile to get over the fear of going back to the place where Mr. Wonderful and I began, but I chose to do it. That's where I chose to vacation this Memorial Day. Interestingly enough, I stayed with mutual friends who were originally his. I know he was a little surprised about that, but he knows how much I love them (and vice versa)... so he told me he hoped I had a good time.

And I did. I deliberately surrrounded myself with like-minded, spiritually oriented people who would be fun with me and allow me to process and grieve (and there was LOTS of crying... TONS). My friend in San Jose has been D'd for quite some time and I met his LF 4 years ago for the first time and liked her immediately. This trip we became sisters. The 3 of us had such a good and meaningful time that if I didn't believe in this stuff, it would seem spooky. I'm wondering if we haven't all been friends together (with Mr. W.) in previous lifetimes.

We took a road trip down the coast on Saturday and found ourselves on a route I had never traveled. That surprised Mark, because it was a motorcycle route that he and Mr. Wonderful had traveled extensively. It happened to be one of their favorite trips. We wound up in a dive bar along the way--another fave of theirs. So I called him after I got a cell signal. We had the most FUN convo we've had in years... he and I were in hysterics, as were my friends in the car. What was weird is that Mark was reminded of a funny story as we sit in the bar drinking a beer and shared it with LF and me. It was one I hadn't heard before. So as we were chatting, Mr. Wonderful asked me, "Hey! Ask Mark if he remembers the time when..." and it was the same story. They were both giggling, and it seemed a bit surreal that we were all taken back in time to fun memories. Uh, this would be something that Mr. Wonderful doesn't typically allow himself to do much anymore.

I'm also mulling over some information Mark shared with me on Friday night... another weird turn of events. I guess after Mr. W. had learned I was staying with his 2 best friends, he decided to call them. (Friend 2's W said he just left a message on their voicemail.) Mr. W. hasn't called his friends in years... they all have to call him. So this was already a big departure from the norm.

Mark said he felt the conversation was interesting enough to tell me. Mark felt it was important enough, as Mr. W. hadn't been drinking (or at least much), so another theory went out the window. Anyway, he told Mark that he really missed him, and invited them out for a visit. He let him know that he would offer his place to stay, and wanted to know if they wanted to borrow a motorcycle and go for a run? Then came the interesting part. He told Mark that he wanted to talk about me. After Mark almost fell off his chair, he listened closely. It wasn't much, but he wanted me to know... I guess Mr. W. told him that we've been getting along really well lately, and he seemed surprised about it. He indicated that we're better friends now than when we were dating, and he realized that he misses me. Mark asked him, "Mr. W., what does that mean?" He said the answer was a very quiet and somber, "I don't know." Mark told me that if he had been the kind of person to tell him how he felt, he would have told him to get into C and work on things with me. But he didn't. He just asked what he was going to do, and Mr. W. just answered again, "I don't know."

Nothing has changed from my POV, though, BTW. I'm continuing my own march forward. Nothing I've heard so far--or seen--has given me any reason to look back.

So if it seems as though I'm looking back, please know that it's solely for the purpose of acknowledging that my past with him was very happy for a long time, and that our friends are just as puzzled by the outcome as I was. At the very least, I know I'm not crazy. PLUS I also know that we can both have these people as friends without feeling awkward or a need to create tension for them. GO US!

So Mark, his LF and I went to mass on Sunday morning--at the church where I was married (my parish church when I lived there). That was VERY hard, but it actually seemed a bit easier because the church itself had been drastically remodeled and there was very little that remained the same. Even the mass had changed. So that's another memory I was able to put behind me.

Next was Friend 2--he's out of town on business, so it was his W and me. (These are one of our couples friends who had 2 very lengthy separations but reconciled.) She took me out for dinner and we wound up sitting at the bar and drinking wine all night. The waiter liked both of us--our nonchalant attitudes--so he bought us our wine for the evening! This was all well and good, but we had to take her dog out for a walk slightly drunk. We also both cried and laughed and it was extremely cathartic.

I had lunch with a friend of mine (who is also a friend of both of ours) on my way back to the airport.

My purpose in making this sojourn was to create NEW memories with people I love and who love me (as well as Mr. Wonderful) and to acknowledge the ones that are equally important and bittersweet as my reality back then. I accomplished every single one of my goals.

Now it's just hard to be back. I never wanted to leave CA, and it's funny that our friends all know this and say that they tried to talk to Mr. Wonderful about waiting until he could get me to ease into the idea. We got back from our honeymoon (a few weeks before Christmas) and then promptly moved here. They indicated that they had told him that my feelings mattered and that perhaps he was being a bit unilateral with his timing? I was a little surprised that they 1) felt that way; 2) discussed it with him; and 3) remembered how I felt. Hmmmm.

They were right. I loved living there, and I miss them horribly. Probably more than I miss most of my family. But then again, aren't friends the family we choose?

Okay, time to get to work. I walked through my door at midnight last night, so I'm exhausted and slightly incoherent. I'll try to venture back here later.

Betsey

[Underdog]

Glenda,

Now why do you want to cease being a sap?

Seriously, I think it's a pretty good indicator that your heart hasn't hardened and you are still very much in touch with your feelings. I'd say it's a terrific thermostat to utilize in all your Rs from here on out.

I didn't mean to sound horribly shocking but the responses from you and Joe have made me think about why I feel this way.

Well, it wasn't as much shocking as it was a warning. I'd pretty much peg your feelings as rational, acceptable and in the realm of perfectly normal. But digging underneath the surface is always a healthy thing to do, especially when the thoughts are really obstacles we set to avoid fear. Oh yeah, I know that drill all too well...

There are a few of "our" friends who still remain friends with me and that is nice considering these people have been my friends, too, for half of my life. They all grew up with XH so I didn't expect any of them to really.

I didn't expect this either, Glenda. But I made it known to everyone--my friends as well--that I desired to keep as many friends as possible, regardless of the origin. Verbalizing that intent, I realized that they would expect me to speak kindly about their friend (without being emotionally dishonest about how I feel or felt) and to be fair. Neither of us has alienated any of the mutual friends we managed to make along the way. And yes, I give myself credit for choosing to behave in a manner where this was possible.

Fortunately, these friends are all pretty much enlightened and have navigated struggles themselves. They knew both sides of the story, and they reserved judgment. They accept him and his choices as much as they accept mine. So much of this "success" is because they have been willing to set aside their own discomfort to be friends... God has blessed me, and I am extremely grateful for this.

I forgot to mention yesterday, but I'm going to mention it today, only to serve as a written reminder of my promises to knock off a few items on the self care list. I'm adding a new goal as well...

Tomorrow I have my first golf lesson! I've been saying for a year that I would eventually do it... it just took awhile. I'm doing it with D9's school speech therapist, who is also a friend. Four lessons, and then I get to go out on the course and hack away, much to the annoyance of all the good golfers out there. I'm not terribly athletically inclined, but I work at stuff, so I'll eventually get it.

I'm also going to be taking up some serious hiking. The W of Friend 2 in CA has decided that for her 50th birthday, she wants to go on a 50 mile hike of the Appalachian Trail (2 years from now). She's inviting me to go along, as well as her H and anyone else who is up to the challenge.

After we gave each other hugs goodbye on Monday, she yelled at me from her front porch, "Get your ass out there and hike!" I'm tentatively planning to begin with some short hikes in the mountains, and gradually build them to the 8-10 miles that she'd like to do on the real hike. Of course, I'll have to ease into carrying a pack...

Fortunately, I have lots of friends who hike, so I guess I'm going to have to let them know that I'd like to train with them. I'm looking forward to doing something new and worthwhile. I might even have to take up snowshoeing or cross country skiing this year to keep up with things over winter.

Exciting!

Betsey

p.s. And to keep all this healthy stuff in check, I feel I must add that I'm participating in a scotch tasting club as well. Working on fitting that into my rapidly improving social schedule.

[kml]

Betsey -
Once you start carrying a pack - you can add weight gradually by putting bags of kitty litter in it.
Ellie

[koshka]

But I have to get through this week first.

Give me a B!
B!
Give me an E!
E!
Give me a T!
T!
Give me an S!
S!
Give me an E!
I just did!

Oh, well, so I'm not a cheerleader.

Have a good week anyway.

Thanks,

Joe