I left your thread yesterday, not feeling so good. Even when I write a sentence to tell other readers the advice in that particular post is going to sound different from the usual or initial advice we give when one first joins the board..........I think many people must only read a portion and aren't acquainted with the history of the sitch. More importantly, I kept thinking about you, 44, and what you said about everyone telling you how your W was crappy, and how that effected you. Then I remembered I had made the statement that I didn't like your WW. I should have said I don't like her ways.
I am guilty of trying to get the LBH's eyes open to see the wayward attitude & behavior in his W.......and how their dynamic has to change before he can have a healthy MR....and, I probably don't sound very compassionate. I'll be the first to say a lot of my posts have a harsh edge, b/c I can identify with what sets WW's apart. I'm trying to get the LBH to see that he can't be a wimp with a WW-- and believe she's going to change how she feels about him.
You asked what if your W just needed help. Well, let me ask a question in return. What do you think it would take for her to seek psychiatric therapy that dealt with whatever she claims happened in her childhood? I'll ask an easier one..What do you think it would take for her to stop her bullying/controlling behavior?
You are not the bad guy, 44. That does not mean you've been perfect. I think you enable a lot of your W's behavior, by simply allowing her to control your actions. Anyway, I'm going to end here. Hope you have a decent weekend.
What a great idea Peace, I certainly think it could be a very interesting read for many of us. The MLC is a very complex process and info on the later stages with much detail is certainly harder to find. I have no idea as to where my H is the process but I can say with certainty that the self absorbed behaviour is showing little sign of changing. Although on a plus side he does seem to exhibit less of this behaviour towards our D these days.
Yes, Chimp paradox was a good book. Lent it to my S (who is now 19), who managed to let his dog destroy it
How's your life panning out?
Believe it or not, I'm still muddling through this situation - I guess we've been officially separated for a couple of years now, although living under the same roof. W built a cabin in the garden with some inheritance she had, so she moved into that last weekend. She's in a position where she wants to start dating, after a spell on tinder. OM in America was still on the scene until a couple of months ago, but they've argued and stopped talking.
Looking at selling the house again in 2020 - last sale attempt fell through last year when the buyers pulled out.
I'll check back in... hopefully won't be another 18 months!
My friend who went through a custody trial (in a different state) said hearsay is completely admissible in court. So it is wise to document what you can, save texts/e-mails, etc. It almost sounded like anything is admissible. In the end, with all the false allegations his XW raised, the judge saw through it and he got 50/50.
I know Iím not supposed to, but I just snooped through his computer😕 He has set up a PO Box that has his credit card bill and our rental property info going to. In his search history I found searches for divorces in Al, apartment listings, should I hide money in a divorce, and divorce before big bonus, etc. I know Iím not supposed to snoop, the open computer just got the best of me since heís giving me the silent treatment. A little side about some of his shady searches as that is not the man Iíve known for 20 years. But not surprised as he has turned I to a jerk the last two months and rewritten our history.
There are moments when I think we can ride this out and work on rebuilding our marriage down the road. The next thought is he will walk out next week.
Please do not insult my intelligence by trying to defend that as you having pure motives. You did try to embarrass her.
No. She has made a massive habit out of stretching the truth and denying reality. I'm not dealing with just a WAW at this point, I'm dealing with a full-blown narcissistic abuser. She was trying to make herself look good and blame me for the issue. She was attempting to derail and force them to enter her drama world. I stopped it with one sentence.
This isn't insulting your intelligence. The game has changed. I'm not trying to fix a wrecked marriage anymore, I'm trying to survive and abuser who is purposefully skewing the story to S's doctors, teachers, and school staff. I'm not allowing that. If she wants to play games for sympathy, I won't allow that because she's literally using S as leverage to get attention and sympathy for herself.
Things are far different than they were when I first started posting here. I came here with the intent of saving the marriage. Every time there was progress, I would learn that the "progress" was just her messing with my head.
Narcissistic abusers are sick. I don't have to say anything to her to make her go into a rage and start petty (and sometimes not petty) attacks, and a lot of that hasn't been posted here because of ongoing legal issues. Whenever she feels like I'm not doing what she wants (when I'm GAL or anything), she amps up the attention grab...even if it's negative attention.
She's now scheduling S's dr appts on my parenting time on purpose so she can take more time for herself. And if I don't like it, she's telling me I can skip work and handle it. I gave her rights to make appointments, but she's doing this to put me in a place where I have to choose between making enough money for S and I to survive or getting him to the appointment and struggling. In fact, the appt date/time isn't necessary, but I won't get into that right this second.
The bottom line is she IS abusive, and I'm not letting her walk all over me.
I have, in our court-monitored communication app, folders for messages she refuses to read and also for messages from her trying to say she wants to come back. It's a hoover/devalue/discard cycle.
Of course it wasn't 100% your fault!! Even though it is sad that he's wrecking all aspects of his life, it also shows that there is something incredibly destabilizing and destructive going on inside of him. Of course you may have areas that you want to work on for yourself that he may or may not hit on in his rants, but knowing that you can't fix his issues and that most of the garbage that he's spewing is just a reflection of his own insecurities and self-loathing-- and that his destructive behavior isn't confined to his MR-- might help you to detach from caring too much about what he's saying and doing.
Guys, thank you for responding! I'm just in a weird spot right now. I'll check out Esther Perel. I certainly have a thing for people with funky names!
Originally Posted by BluWave
She believes that most of us will have several Ms in our lifetime and for some of us it will be with the same person. It sounds like you and your W need to figure out how to build this next relationship together. I think in order to do that, there may need to be some remorse and atonement for past actions. Have you said this to her? Because you canít go forward if you are building resentment for past hurts.
I have not. I know the resentment thing is a big deal for me. I shoved a lot down over the years and I think that was not good in the long run. But I see some wisdom in the several M's, because people change and your R dynamic changes... it's something to think about and read about certainly.
IronWill, yes it was not bad overall. Sorry to hear you had to go through something similar!
Kristin, I can't believe you read that whole thing! Thank you! Blu read it all last year (or at least early this year) too. It's a mess. I'm scared to go back and relive those moments and feel my weaknesses and fears again.
My W has been a fervent supporter of mine when "stuff" hits the fan, whether it was with my dad or brother. She did support me a lot recently. She also did that last December at a wedding, even though she had just come home to work on things and ran back to OM, she was very much sticking up for me in front of people when they were asking what happened to me and my brother (I'm an identical twin FYI). It's very strange in my opinion.
I'm glad I can help you out a little. I just think you are hurting, I've been there, but that you really are stronger and better than you know.
I'm just over hear trying to figure who and what I am, without overthinking it and driving myself nuts.
Since last update I had been giving W and I some space. It seems like she hasnít been receptive to this and has been hot and cold. Sheís not mean or disrespectful but the intimacy has died down and she said something was bothering her but didnít know what. She said she was tired of us arguing or bickering and wants a reset. I do too.
Last weekend instead of going with her to the reception for her friend prior to that I suggested if she wanted to go with her boss to have a girls night and then later she could meet me back in town and we have our time to party. So last week she agreed. Went out and celebrated her friendís wedding with her boss. They got back to town later that night and my wife met me up and we spent time together all night. We had a good time partying all night to early in the morning. Crashed and went to a baseball game the next day.
I thought everything was getting better but that night talking she said she wasnít happy when we argued. I felt like I failed at validating, I also wondered if this was part of some grander scheme of her exit. I thought it was the talk from a few Thursdayís ago. Thought we had talked that through.
Now I need help here. Prior to getting a hotel room for this past Saturday night, she was looking for rooms when I was doing something and I told her I was going to look into it. She said she didnít mind because she usually is the one shopping online for deals when we go on vacation. She got two places and we talked about it. I chose a room at the Marriott which I didnít know was at the Marriott at that time. Chose the better of the two rooms. and she said she could check the discounts but she said the password to her marriott app was at work. She said she couldnít log into Citrix from the iPad and didnít have her laptop. She asked me if I wanted to make a account for the discount then did she was able to check and it was like a 16.00 saving so I just got the room as a guest and sent the reservation to my email. The thing that bothers me is how it felt like a secret of why her password would be at work.
I havenít confronted or asked for this password because Iím not sure how to go about it. Forget it? Could be nothing or ask? Could there be more I should be trying to look into and why ?
So besides that, yesterday I figured out what could still cause my wife to be in her funk. Maybe it was two weeks ago after she said she was still mad about our convo of her going out to be a friend to her boss in a time or need, one night I left and said I needed space because we had a party and we all were drinking. Her family was over. We went to bed and I couldnít sleep. I said I was leaving and she said where and I said out. I went driving around that night to think about things like when she said some space would be good for us so I went to the apartment to sleep. She texted 3 times and I later went home around 5pm the next day. I didnít respond to her texts asking me how I was.
So going back to yesterday, I brought this up and asked if this was why she was still upset and I think i hit it on the nose she said I could have had the decency to let her know I was safe or here I wa out to. I told her she has the 360 app to see where I was. She said she doesnít use it for me and I said that was one of the reasons we agreed to get it and thatís not my fault if she didnít want to use it to see where I was because she could have. I admitted I was wrong to leaving the way I did and I apologized but I also said she was still angry so I didnít feel like she deserved for me to do or say things to try and appease her. Told her if the shoe was on the other foot she would feel the same way and I said she has been like this before where some of her remarks come across as a double standard.
I am confused . She wants us to go back to a normal life and I told her I want a normal life but since she brought that guy into the fold the day she lied who she was out with, I donít know how I am supposed to move forward with trust.
Told her I am going to get therapy to figure out my feeling to see what to do about us.
I am actively looking this week because I am strongly on the fence if I want to be with her. I have a long list that my insurance have in network. I am looking for gottman and other areas like anger management, family/ marriage, and some other specialties as well.
Time for work.
Currently reading/rereading what women want in a man. Open to other books. This feels like another limbo. Still trying to be patient and from the few Thursdayís ago Ive felt better that my happiness isnít all wrapped up in her. If we donít make it I will survive. I do sometimes struggle to be patient with her because signs from her I think should be there arenít so I am not sure when I should expect certain things from her.
She did say this. If we both go thru counseling she can see us going to marriage counseling In the future.
Thanks to a recent post by DnJ, I looked into Ďcompartmentalisationí. This really seems a good fit too for why they are so distant. Looking at the way my XW treated me, I feel like I had been compartmentalised. Before encountering this word, I had often felt my XW had a Ďcircleí, that if you were in, you were all good, but if you fell outside, you were in a bad place with her, and there forever.
For a WAS or MLCer the approach is the similar. The spouse has made a statement of it being over and wanting out.
Time and space, digging deep for patience, focusing on you and kids. These provide the best chances at things turning around. Your W needs time and space to change how she feels and thinks.
It is staggering how many MLCers have affairs. The OP meaning nothing. That relationship is build with lies, deceit, cheating, etc...; itís built upon sand, and that is a very poor foundation.
Originally Posted by WMLC
I do not want D and prefer to try and work it out. I have zero proof, but feel very strongly she is having an A. First question is, should I try and get proof of A? I feel like I can't have any honest discussions about our situation unless I know for sure.
You do not want a divorce. Ok. You canít control not getting D. You can control - you not pushing for D.
This is a small but accurate detail. ďI do not want to push for divorce.Ē This you can do something with. The other way leaves it up in the air, and focuses on what she is doing. Focus on you, and what you can do.
This also acknowledges and readies your mind for the possibility of her pushing for D.
I would not suggest snooping for evidence regarding an affair. It will not alter her path, and quite likely have the opposite effect you are after. Not to mention it is going to hurt.
Yes, truthful conversation regarding R will require open and honest admitting of an affair, along with a great many other things. However, those days are a ways off at the moment.
Originally Posted by WMLC
I am prepared to lock-in to either approach. Understanding my preferred result is to R, which path should I go down?
The general advice, and my recommended course of action, is save yourself.
Find detachment and indifference. This is the single best thing you will do for yourself. Uncoupling your emotional attachment to W might sound wrong, it is not.
W needs time to fix herself. She is not in a place to work on R right now. You detach, let go, forgive, etc... all that inner work. Give her plenty of time and space, while you keep busy, active, and live. The roommate approach for example.
You grow, heal, become the best version of you - all regardless of what she is doing. That will possibility attract her, cause her to become interested, maybe even follow that beacon you become. However, those are her choices. And you have your choices.
Stand until youíre healed enough to not stand. Then you can decide further choices. That time is further down your path.
You have the gift of time, use it wisely. Use it for you.
Andrew - Yes there is lots of moisture and most of the crops are off. I have water in my yard like I do in spring. Could be an interesting winter around here.
DV - Thanks. Iím looking forward to the weekend. D17 and I are performing a piano concert for the folks at Dadís care home. Mom, Dad, S22, S18, and of course D17 and I will be there and have the turkey dinner after. Still waiting to see if S22ís GF has to work or if she can attend.
Gerda - Glad you liked the metaphor. And yeah, when waist deep in snow, it is hard to realize that spring does return.
Thanks for the comments regarding S22. Letting go of our kids, is a tough thing to do, and tough to assure them it is ok for them to let go as well. Kind of hurts and proud all at the same time. W / Mom would have been happy with how her kids are doing.
job - We will enjoy the dinner and the gathering. Even with the touch of sadness. Thank you.
bttrfly - Socks in the gutters.
I didnít get home in time to use my roof rake and the snow ripped off a couple of gutter from my house. Fun times. Lol.
Iím pretty proud of my little girl too. Who, I reluctantly admit, isnít so little anymore.
On the one hand I have wonderfull news in that I got offered a position as an engineer with a great company back in the USA. But I keep thinking of my toddler that I will leave behind with the divorced wife.
We are divorced half a year now. I dont feel bad when I am not with her. I have made my peace, sort of. I cry less.
But most of our interactions are her attempting to bait me into a fight. It is unrelentless and full force. I really dont know how much more a man can take. Many of my friends and family have said that I have been too patient thru all of this. Well, its not like we have a choice when you have a kid. I dont want to leave my little man behind so to say. So I deal with her crap to be with the kid.
Once I move for work next week, I will be gone for a long time and will not see the little one and will be dependent on her good will to skype so i can see the kid. I was at her new place earlier. Pure madness. A new dog, pooping all over. The kid being happy and jumping. My only reason for being there was to return the kid to her and to deliver her groceries (extra good will effort on my part). I also want to invest some time on child proofing the place, I added window bars the other day since they are on the 3rd floor and the window swings open and a toddler can easily fall out. Tonight I was looking at her electrical panel to make sure there was a power relay to allow for leaks or short circuits. Its a life saver and mandatory but these old houses dont usually have them.
While I am trying to put in good work for them, her insults came hard. "Why are you in my house? Dont you think its time you left" she said.
I picked up my stuff and left.
2 minutes ago she was telling me about her day and to work on the computer later.
2 days ago she was trying to convince me that I am probably gay.. which I am not. The attacks are laughable.
Fathers LBS my heart goes out to you. We didnt sign up for this crap. We have to raise a kid dealing with a madman.
At first, no I really didn't have any idea, either one of us did. After she started talking to the OM is when she really opened up to me and the pain. Before that it seemed like we had slowly progressed over the last year and things got better and better.
Towards he time she pushed the seperation is when she said, "it's almost been a year, I shouldn't hurt this much still, there is no hope". Neither one of us knew how long recovery would be or what we needed to do to get there. I thought we were there, she thought she should be there, and we were both wrong. Plus the OM told her repeatedly that she would never get over it until she got rid of me, and that they could make each other happy. That is what she believed and that is what she did.
So time will tell I guess. I'm trying to focus on me and my girls, but knowing that she's moved on and showing nothing but happiness makes it hard not to lose hope.
At the end of the day I want a happy, loving relationship (and the intimacy that goes with it) more than I want to be "right". As I agree with this now. Unfortunately there is no more intimacy between us, I just want peace I donít want to interact with her anymore.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I do understand that, but what I mean is in ALL our relationships (friends, family, coworkers, clients) it's better to let go of the need to be "right" in favor of maintaining a relationship on good terms. This was a big 180 for me because before BD I wanted to be "right" to a fault, and I wanted to prove my point until everyone admitted I was right. but even when they did it didn't bring any sense of "victory", it just made me realize how stubborn I was being about it. So like I said before, validation is a handy tool because you're not pushing your agenda to be "right", nor are you admitting you are wrong. It's a neutral, non-confrontational stance. It has made my relationship with my GF much better, and has also improved my relationships with all other people in my life.
I agree she will probably end up moving in with him. She is looking for another job but I doubt she will follow through with it. She is only looking for another job to get out of her current situation and this would allow her to be with him. All of this takes time so it is important for me to detach and not speculate.
Iíve realized there is no figuring her out. The only thing that is certain is that she doesnít want to be with me. I guess we will know for sure once his divorce is final but that could take months to happen.
I truly think my only chance of reconciling and healing is to let her go. Divorce is hard but it may be the best option for me to heal and grow.
Iím sorry for the situation you find yourself in. H leaving a pregnant wife and two kids is really rough. My XW left me and my four kids. The day before all fine, then a big announcement to me and the kids, and she left with OM.
MLCers live competing lives, and compartmentalize within themselves. This strategy works for a while, but the pain, pressure, and guilty keep growing. This all happens unnoticed to us, the loving spouse. Eventually a breaking point is reached and their dam breaks. A mistakenly sent text, a chance happening of getting caught, or just too much pressure and they spill their guts.
After that, things are in the open, for them. It is for us as well, since we now know about. However, it is the being open to themselves, those two or more competing lives they were living, suddenly both existing together and in full force. In their world emotions rein supreme, they are ruled by their feeling. This is all about H, nothing to do with you. An MLCer path is emotional driven, and as such is irrational and will not look rational or logical. Their decisions are based on feelings, not reason.
With their still unrealized and unidentifiable pain and torment from long ago trauma, the MLCer with project and blame those closest to them, their parter if they have one. Again, this is all about them, and the justifications are irrational and devoid of sound mind or reason. Yes, sometimes their criticisms are close to the mark, and they sting, and hurt. If there is some truth to them, follow those and make changes to you, and for you. This is a fantastic opportunity to become better and not bitter. You can, and will, emerge a much stronger and healthier person.
Originally Posted by MyHell
does this sound like a midlife crisis...
That is the LBSís burning question isnít it. Validation of what your seeing and relief that others believe you.
In the general population mid life crisis is seen in the stereotypical Hollywood style of guy buys new Ferrari and gets younger girl friend. But as we know, the truth is much much darker and destructive to the suffer and those around them.
So, yes it sounds like your H is suffering MLC, a crisis.
MLC is a long road. Some recover, some do not. The future is unknown. This is the time to focus on you and your kids.
Nothing you do will affect his path, and everything will. That makes much more sense when you are further down your path.
However, everything you do, will affect you. Strive for better and not bitter.
There is a way out of our personal h3ll. I know, Iíve walked it.