I kind of get the feel for the shape of it, but ... it may help to define: What parts felt productive, to what end?
Originally Posted by MrP
not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair
These feel like WAS reoccurring themes, especially after many years and perhaps complacency that comes with it. My W pointed out that although I would do things for the family, I would more rarely do things for her alone. Times when I would deliberately exclude everyone else. It seems all Ws compete in some way with their MIL. As far as money, my W says now I was always hard to talk to about it. From my perspective I almost never said no to any request. I just made it happen though she could see the stress it caused me. I think I should have said NO much more often.
Are they really root issues? Or just things more easily talked about or easily identified? Seized on justifications to walk away?
Originally Posted by MrP
I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation.
I considered then rejected MC because my W hasn’t ever really wanted to try since BD1. Well before I found MWD’s books and this forum, I recognized it takes two to be useful. That said, everything I read here shows that which MC you have and their approach makes a tremendous difference. I think my reference standard is MWD own thread here:
Originally Posted by Michele
Hi Everyone, Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented
Thanks for responding. I'm just so ready for this to be over, I'm wishing for withdrawal.😉 He did have a rough childhood, his mom had him when she was 17. She was very promiscuous until he was 10 and she met his step dad, his dad was in and out his whole life. He spent a lot of time with his grandparents and his uncle which were great people. He lost his uncle/best friend in 1997 and his grandfather in 1999. His dad never treated him like a son, he was more like a buddy. His dad passed in 2017 and left him nothing after promising him certain things that were special to him.😢 He's never dealt with anything he's been through and there may b more that I don't know abt.
As for me I'm still living in the camper, working 2 jobs he gives me no financial assistance. Hoping to find a better job this summer so I can afford to get out and just work 1 job. It's kinda hard to find a job that pays good when u don't really have any skills. I mean the last 30 yrs I've been a wife and mother, but I have some leads. There hasn't been anymore action as far as the "D" word is concerned, we're going on 8 months since papers were filed.
My boys are all doing great. The oldest is 30 and moved to Nebraska when all of this started happening. He doesn't have a relationship with his dad 😪 our middle child he's 25 and is in North Carolina working and the youngest he's 22 lives in Auburn(WAR EAGLE).
I don't really have any hobbies, however I love sports. Hopefully I will b going to the beach a lot this summer.
Thanks for responding. I'm just so ready for this to be over, I'm wishing for withdrawal.😉 He did have a rough childhood, his mom had him when she was 17. She was very promiscuous until he was 10 and she met his step dad, his dad was in and out his whole life. He spent a lot of time with his grandparents and his uncle which were great people. He lost his uncle/best friend in 1997 and his grandfather in 1999. His dad never treated him like a son, he was more like a buddy. His dad passed in 2017 and left him nothing after promising him certain things that were special to him.😢 He's never dealt with anything he's been through and there may b more that I don't know abt.
As for me I'm still living in the camper, working 2 jobs he gives me no financial assistance. Hoping to find a better job this summer so I can afford to get out and just work 1 job. It's kinda hard to find a job that pays good when u don't really have any skills. I mean the last 30 yrs I've been a wife and mother, but I have some leads. There hasn't been anymore action as far as the "D" word is concerned, we're going on 8 months since papers were filed.
My boys are all doing great. The oldest is 30 and moved to Nebraska when all of this started happening. He doesn't have a relationship with his dad 😪 our middle child he's 25 and is in North Carolina working and the youngest he's 22 lives in Auburn(WAR EAGLE).
I don't really have any hobbies, however I love sports. Hopefully I will b going to the beach a lot this summer.
First, how do I thank you for the detailed response? This forum is nothing short of amazing. Sincerely grateful.
H bought a house and moved out minimal items - his closet and bureaus are still mostly full. H didn't take much summer clothes but has stopped in for a handful of summer clothes in the last week. It hurts every time I see him grab more - it's like he's moving out more and more and a reminder that he's not ready to move back home. Other than clothes, most of his belongings are still at home - he didn't take much more than necessities, our framed wedding picture, pictures of the family/kids.
When you say, "A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority.", could this be a very controlling and particular parent who dictated his decisions instead of considering his opinion? Or would it be more of an absent parent who didn't play ball with him because they were working? Recently, he mentioned that he attempted to commit suicide at 16 (I met him at 17) but I don't know what drove the attempt. Thankfully, he didn't. Should I try to probe to learn the reason? H's story to his family (back in Oct) was that he's D because he won't be controlled anymore. H won't be a 'yes man' any more.
When you say, "The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.", I am being logical and can't make sense of the running. We've held each other's hands and gotten through all struggles together. What is the reason for not letting me help? Not trusting in me to help? I'm not taking it personally, although I did at one point. Rather, I'm trying to understand how to let someone (even if its not me) help him. H is so depressed and alone.
I've read comments like the one you share: Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. I just can't apply this thinking because since Nov, he is sooo depressed. Doesn't go anywhere. Man of few words. Keeps to himself. But has started to drink (not excessively but he never drank so he's drinking which is a change) and continues to smoke pot and started to use nicotine pouches to relieve stress. If he went back to 16 (attempt to end life), it would make sense that he's drinking, using pot (yes, I know it's legal in many states), behaving like a teenager. I remember him having a 11:00 curfew until he was 21 and HATED it. Often got angry at parents, but obliged. H wanted to stay in dorm with me but was required to go home every night. H was 17, 18, 19 then but still coming home for 11 resentfully. Could he be trying to relive those years without the curfew? And, that's why H would come home at 3 or 4 am in Oct? H LOVES his mom who passed 6 years ago next week. I would be surprised if any trauma is related to mom based on how he loves and misses her. Thoughts?
H doesn't call me names. H doesn't mistreat me unless I include abandonment. H is loving, soft spoken, caring...just doesn't say much. Oddly, since Jan, he's begun to reach out to the kids - sometimes with odd things. H didn't wish them a HNY either. But, he got a tattoo and sent a pic of it to them today - kids didn't know he was getting one. On the other hand, I knew he was getting one to honor his mom but didn't reach out to me today at all, and that includes no pic.
Love the lighthouse story - really resonates! Like I say, I don't always know how to apply knowledge learned. For instance, is me asking H to take a vacation with me smart? Is me 'letting' him take me to cancer appts smart? And, why is he the perfect husband on cancer days? Why does he NEED to take me to appts? "Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to." This makes me think that having a family member take me to cancer appts would be wiser. Not letting him in the house would be wiser. Yet, none of that feels right...
In my situation, what are some examples that I can use to 'stir the pot' as I've read about?
Lastly, I've initiated R talks with lots of caution and he doesn't seem opposed, but doesn't embrace a scheduled conversation. Just yesterday on our way to cancer appt, I mentioned that he asked for space in Sept and that most people need 3 to 4 weeks; not 3 to 4 years of space ((I know that to not always be the case but go with it). He chuckled at the 3 to 4 years part and agreed not that long. Then I played along and counted how many months it's been since Sept as if I wasn't keenly aware that it's been 7 months. Cautiously, I then said, at what point do we talk again and determine if we should go in opposite directions or commit to our relationship? He nodded with no words. After waiting a bit, I said, "I feel like if I wait for you, you'll never approach me." H corrected me with a soft voice and said he will. I asked him if he was scared to talk or scared of me. H said no. I thanked him and asked if this conversation was making him uncomfortable. H said: "no, conversation is fine. " I then asked if he felt like I have been pressuring him. Again, he said, no. Based on yesterday, I was led to think that he's grateful that I put into words what he may be thinking and that he's looking for assurance that he can turn to me. How do you read this?
Sorry for a delay in responding to your post. My best friend was out for a visit and I was unplugged for a few days.
The Midlife Crisis forum is less active than the forum For Newcomers. However, this forum is more for the MLC situations, which are pretty darn slow. (My XW will be coming up on seven years post BD and she is still exhibiting major running behaviours.)
A new poster, MamaG, just joined on For Newcomers. Her H is exhibiting crisis behaviours. You might want to check out her thread. Even offer some encouragement and advice for her.
As for MLC stages, the post replay stages of depression and withdrawal are deep and dark. The MLCer pulls away from everything and everyone. Lots of brooding and self blaming.
To me, your experiences with H only withdrawling from you, sounds like replay. H is presently on his portion of flight when he ignores you. And like a boomerang, in a while he likely will circle back reinitiating some level of contact again.
I do think H is dipping into depression and withdrawal somewhat, and then running back into replay. As odd as it is, replay/running feels safer for him. He doesn’t have your knowledge and logic about the situation, and can only amble along at his pace and his direction. Whatever that may be.
Remember, H is emotionally driven. His decisions and behaviours stem from his emotional side rather than logic or reason. It’s hard to make sense of such nonsensical behaviour. Even H doesn’t have solid reasons for what he is doing, he is more reacting to how he feels at a given moment.
Please don’t fret over what you did or didn’t do, or worry about if you prolonged his crisis. H is broken. You didn’t break him, so you cannot fix him.
H needs to heal and grow up from when he was emotional hurt and stunted all those years ago. And he is, unfortunately, an ill-equipped man for such an undertaking. Not to mention he is running from diggin into it, and doesn’t really see or believe he is the source of his pain and torment.
The likely cause of H’s torment is an authority figure from his childhood, yet H is present day source and reinforcement of his own feelings. And that is a hard lesson to learn, especially for those souls so very lost in crisis.
Time and space my dear. Give H lots of each.
How about you. Are you living the trailer? Or have you moved somewhere? Has the divorce proceeding stalled or is H still pushing them along? How are your finances? H providing his share, if applicable?
How is work? or retirement?
How are the kids? How old are they?
What hobbies you into? Any plans for gardening this summer? Travel?
Just curious is all. You know, filling in some of the blanks.
Very good summary. You sound quite balanced and grounded. Well done! Good for you. You’ve definitely been getting a life and detaching to get where you presently are.
A question:
Originally Posted by MamaG
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted.
Did H buy a house? Or a rental? Did he move his stuff out?
I’ll see if I can shed any light or share some insight on your particular questions.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is this MLC?
Short answer, in my opinion, yes.
You touch on MLC not being that Hollywood “get a new red sports car comedic version”.
Real MLC is a consuming decent in to the abyss. A person in crisis is driven by long ago, unrealized, unrecognized, unreconciled, trauma(s) which were inflicted upon their young self by a person in a position of authority. These traumas are significant and of such magnitude to be quite unable to be understood or accepted by such an emotionally/mentally immature child/teenager. As such, the trauma is buried, along with the young person’s self blame, guilt, shame, and so on; as they will, and do, blame themselves. This emotionally stunts them, not allowing the person to mature and grow as they should have.
As life progresses, various triggers occur, stirring up this long ago torment. And usually, the crisis person buries it again. Until mid life.
At mid life, pressures mount. Family and employment responsibilities, mortality, kids growing up and leaving the nest, aging parents, friends passing away, etc, all start to build. A triggering event occurs like has occurred before, yet at mid life the feelings cannot be ignored.
Long ago pains grow and pressure upon them. The person is entering their crisis, and is quite unaware of it. Literally, they have no conscious awareness of their past traumas, and they have no lexicon for how or why they feel as they do. And those feelings grow and grow.
MLC is emotionally driven. Some triggering event occurs, a wedding, birth of a child, a car accident, falling off a cliff, something that underscores their own mortality. They own aging and life’s sand slipping through the hour glass.
We all experience life transitions. And mid life transition is a difficult one to find peace and acceptance with. Likely the most difficulty of life’s transitions. Perfectly normal and healthy. Enter a person with past traumas and that transition goes right off the rails. That is a crisis.
That which is buried alive, will come back to haunt.
The MLCers is under constant and ceaseless torment. Unrecognized torment. They cannot figure it out. They cannot rationalize it. Yet, they feel and suffer it. Those long ago demons, which until midlife could be re-buried, no longer remain silent.
MLC is horrible! Absolutely horrible!
The crisis person is in such pain, is so desperate for relief. And desperate folks do desperate things. So they run.
They run from their ceaseless pain and torment. Lots spend money, do drugs, drink, have affairs, partake in illegal and illicit behaviours and activities, and so on. They are trying to recapture their youth, which they feel they’ve been rob of. Any and all activities to both mute what they are feeling, and to try to feel something. A person in crisis is very lost.
Replay and running are one and the same. The MLCer is replaying their life. They need to. They need to go back and grow up from when they were emotionally stunted. You’ll likely see, or have likely seen, time travel. The MLCer becomes, is, their younger self. A teenager. Much more brash and rebellious. And with a fat wallet. The most rebellious teenage kids is say a 10/10 on the scale, a MLCer is a 15.
A crisis is not rational. The MLCer makes emotional decisions. They are driven to. Their emotions are cranked to eleven, and they have no bandwidth for their spouse, kids, friends, or anyone.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer?
Both!
Drop the rope. Or be dragged. That’s your choice.
Let go the rope and give him to God. Let the big guy work on H for a while.
You didn’t break H, therefore you cannot fix him.
As for time with H, invite him to some family events and such. Not all, some. And have no expectations.
H may, or may not attend. Doesn’t matter, keep your expectations dialled to zero. Unmet expectations lead to resentment. And resentment is like acid to love and relationship.
A MLCer has the attention span of a gnat. They will flake or forget appointment, or simply cannot handle some interaction and will run. Like New Years for example. (Hence, the replay stage, running behaviours.) Do not take it personally. This is H’s journey, and it will be at his speed. You go about your activities regardless of his attendance or not.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay?
Still in replay.
Tattoos, driving around for hours, moving out, and such. H is looking for time and space. He needs it. And he will take it.
Give him lots of time and space. Focus on you! Live and love your life! Let H figure himself out, and run to catch up to you. You don’t sit around waiting.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)?
Read the lighthouse story in the welcome thread. (Link here as well: Lighthouse Story)
As long as interactions are not disrespectful, and you want to see H, having him come and go can be helpful.
This is H’s journey. Nothing you do can speed it up. At best your efforts will be neutral, at worst it will stall him completely. Focusing on you and the kids is your best course.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What boundaries do I establish?
Boundaries are premeditated actions you will take for disrespectful behaviour. Boundaries are for you. They are not some tool to entice behaviour modification, nor are boundaries punishment or a form retribution. Boundaries are for your emotion and mental health. Are actions you enact.
Let’s say H swears at you on the phone. Calls you disrecptpful and derogatory names. You state your boundary, and enforce it when he displays the unwanted behaviour.
“H, when you swear at me, and call me a b!tch, it really hurts me and is very disrespectful. When you do that, I am going to hang up the phone and not speak with you.”
And you enforce said boundary, rock solid!
Rebellious teenagers, especially 15 on a scale of 10, will test your boundaries. It’s normal when our teenagers do it, and so aggravating. One’s MLCer spouse is super aggravating. And they will smash against your boundary looking for weakness.
It’s part of growing up. They, teen or MLCer, needs to know, needs to believe, in your rock solid strength.
Originally Posted by MamaG
Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt?
Do more of what works, and less of what doesn’t.
Not being glib here. Every situation is different, and yet similar. However, you are living it. There is no magic answers or bullets, though we can tailor advice to your individual situation the more we know about it.
In my opinion, with what you’ve shared, H is in crisis. And a crisis is a long journey.
The basic path is to give time and space. Let H feel the loss of you and the relationship. He needs to.
A person in crisis has so much feelings of torment, and they incorrectly blame their loving spouse. Realize, the MLCer cannot blame themselves. They truly cannot! Their psyche cannot handle it.
So, they look around their life and see their spouse. In their mixed up addled mind it must be the LBS’s fault. So, they dig and dredge up every corroborating deed and word and action of the past that you did to justify their position. They’ll also twist, fabricate, make up, outright lie, to further their narrative and justifications. They have to!
Like I said, MLC is horrible! The MLCer lies to themselves so very much.
So, with time and space. Other feelings will/can rise in the MLCer. Other feelings like guilt, shame, regret. Other feelings that are useful to your goal.
In time, and with some good fortune H may consider something like:
“Hmmm. MamaG has been bothering me for a long time. And I’m still unhappy. Hmmm. Perhaps it’s not her fault. Perhaps it’s me.”
Most MLCers run from such. The MLCer will bait and goad their LBS into arguments and such to resupply their justifications and narrative. Do not take the bait. Let go the rope.
With time, and fate, and karma, lots of intervention that have absolutely nothing to do with you, H might see it differently. And might look inward.
It’s possible. And I hope he does. And it’s well out of your hands.
Focus on you and your kids. Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by MamaG
What can I change to move us along
You cannot move “us” along.
You only control three things in life. Your thoughts, your actions, and your reactions.
You can move forward. You cannot move, nor force H to do so. In fact, he will fight against such.
Originally Posted by Mama2
Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
Follow H’s lead in these type of things.
MLCers cannot handle pressure. Any pressure and they bolt. Pressure, trying to change them, forcing them, pushing the, right out the door.
Me suggestion. Get a card. A generic card. Not a lovey-dovey card for sure.
If H gives you a card, you’ll have one for him. If he lets the day go unrecognized, do the same.
It’s like relationship talks advice. Initiate no R-talks. Not for quite some time. H cannot handle the pressure. If H initiates an R-talk, proceed very very carefully. Let him do the talking.
That’s a lot of stuff to sift through and process. I do hope some resonates with you.
Thank you! I've read through most of this. Starting to read the 1st chapter of the book now. Any direction on how to live day to day? Do I ask him why he avoids me and my texts? Do I stop pursuing him? H seems to be coming out of fog and showing interest. I'm I mis-reading the situation?
Do I need to move to a different forum? I joined this thread hoping to talk with people who have either already been through MLC w/ their spouse or people who are currently going through it. I posted a few days ago and have had no response. Just wondering if I'm not doing something right???? I know I don't post a lot basically only when I have questions.
I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. However, you have landed in a really good place here, IMHO. This site is full of kind compassionate folks with much hard earned wisdom.
Do you have a copy of Divorce Remedy by MWD? If not, do get one, and read it cover to cover. There is lots of really good information in there.
Do keep Divorce Remedy, Divorce Busting techniques and strategies, this site, and such, close to your chest. This information is for you, not H. H would very likely see this info and efforts as manipulation and trying to just get him back. (Here’s a quote from a wise poster, which I agree with:)
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Below, is a copy of Cadet’s welcome thread for your reference. It has a bunch of links to a trove of useful information as well.
I look forward to conversing with you.
DnJ
- - - -
Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
A couple other key points: - H jumped off a cliff while on vacation in Aug 2021; fractured his hip and nearly didn't make it. H recovery was for 6 long months of doing very little and not getting off the couch much. This traumatized him. - H and I have had a beautiful and happy marriage (or at least we thought). We built a home to our liking in an elite neighborhood, two beautiful children who are well mannered and behaved, two dogs and a desired life filled with laughter and joy. We were looked to for advice and admired for the love we demonstrated with strength and faith.
Thank you all so much for your words of wisdom and encouragement. He showed good emotion and even some empathy (of course this was after being caught in a lie) but non the less more than I have got since this started. And of course is cycling back this last week to jerk mode. Hopefully those cycles will get less and less and shorter like they have been. I remember seeing a thread that amyc posted about here story when she was in her mlc. Does anyone have a link to that thread. I cant seem to find it now. or any other threads of people coming out of their mlc. It helps me a lot mentally to read these stories.
2020-2023: H would say he was sad but didn't know why. Some reasons I suspect contributed to his sadness: H's mom passed unexpectedly April 2018; S23 moved out to college dorms 9/2019; D21 moved out to college dorms 9/2021
Feb 2023: H came home from work in deep anxiety attack and tears. H doesn't cry (Ever!) so I immediately consoled him to learn that he was confused and afraid to tell me that he had been eating daily brownies with pot for the last two years. Two days later, I asked him to move out because I can't live with an addict. While I regret this now, at the time, it felt right. H didn't move out. We talked and connected deeply over the next 6 months, including several vacations/getaways. H 'proved' he wasn't addicted by not having any edibles for 2 months but celebrated with one on 4/20/23. From then on, he kept craving and needing the fix (I assume to medicate the sadness that he still carried)
July 2023: H suggested he see a therapist - never did. H's friend passes of heart attack
Aug 2023: H going out with friends until late hours and drinking. H's childhood friend passes of cancer
Sept 2023: Bomb drop requesting space because it's not going to work - H shouts out reasons: H will never take something out for dinner; H will never remember to take out the dog; H will never come up with his own todo list; H will never plan a vacation; I shouldn't tell him what music to listen to; H doesn't like how I manage money tightly. We didn't talk for 3 days until he called me from work to tell me that he's sick of being controlled and is filing for divorce due to irreconcilable differences. H goes out every night and reports back that he drives around for hours on end listening to music. H cringes at me saying "I love you". H can't be hugged or kissed. Started sleeping in son's bedroom. Asked me to not refer to him with pet names. H be called by his name only.
Oct 2023: H looks at houses and offer is accepted. H can't look at me; can't be touched; doesn't want to talk; H behaves as a teenager, coming home from bars and beginning to vape. H never drank other than socially; didn't vape or smoke since he was 20. H contacts mediator and we hold an intro session where H is very engaged in how fast can D happen. H still drives around for hours, can't be hugged or kissed. Still sleeping in son's bedroom. H is visibly depressed and cries 8 to 10 times a day in front of me. Pretends to be happy with others. H gets a tattoo because that's his therapy - when I asked him what it meant to him, he couldn't provide any clarity. I think he realized that as he tried to put words together.
Nov 2023: I learn I have cancer and he softens. Wants to take me to all doctor appts, oncologists, etc. Not sure why the interest in my well being. H agrees that it's not wise to come home at 3 or 4 in the morning and agrees that he'll sleep on friends couch if coming home before 11 isn't going to happen. He slept out a couple nights at most. H still drives around for hours, but can now be hugged with prior permission. Still no "I love you's". Still sleeping in son's bedroom. But, for 6 weeks, at my request, he'd come into our bed to hold me as I was having panic attacks. H embrace was calming. Sometimes he was very uncomfortable but did it anyway. Until one night we had an intimate moment that was repeated often for 6 weeks...until he moved out. Thanksgiving was very hard - it also happens to be the anniversary of his grandpa passing when he was just 8. H struggled (as did I).
Dec 2023: H moved out and goes pretty silent for most of Dec. H comes around to wrap kids gifts, grab wrapping paper and a couple items he's forgotten to pack. H came over xmas morning and it was very hard. H held me, kissed me and committed to talking really soon. I thought this was it - he's come to his senses. WRONG! No texts; No calls; no Happy New Year.
Jan 2024: H wants to talk every day. Called me a couple days and then that ended. Only time we'd talk is to align on time for the next day's doc appt that were 2 hours away. I looked forward to my cancer appts so that we could spend the day together - it took an hour to warm up to each other but the rest of the day was comfortable like we didn't miss a day in each other's lives. Sometimes holding hands and embracing (mostly for support). H is visibly depressed and confused. Although I rarely call him, if I do, it's during work and he picks up and carries on for about an hour - mostly about work. H is excited to talk (not sure if its excited to talk with me or to just simply talk to someone). H gets 2 tattoos and reminds me that it's his therapy. H sends occasional texts to kids that don't ask questions and kids aren't sure how to respond. Text will say something like, Today is going to be a better day.
Feb 2024: I had surgery and he came by daily to care for me for about an hour. H and I agree to try dinners twice a week. H suggested Wed which I reminded him was Valentine's Day. H said, how about Thursday then bc he's not comfortable with 2/14. We had a few dinners but it was too difficult with late nights at work. That stopped. Cancer appts continued and provided 1 or 2 days a week of connection. Things were great when we were together....just like old-times. One day, as we enjoyed dinner after an appt, we stared into each others eyes with warm tender love while holding hands. I told him "I love you" and tears started rolling down his face. WHY? Later that week, on 2/14/23, I learn about MLC reactions (not the red car definition) and unresolved grief impacts on the psyche. It was eye-opening. H is still depressed and is quite forgetful but now I'm beginning to understand why...I think. H is not as anxious nor stressed to come by. Leaves our home one afternoon "to do laundry" and instead goes to get a nose ring and pierce his ears.
Mar 2024: We talked for an hour about grief and impacts grief can have on someone. I told him that I'm not suggesting our relationship was perfect but that it's understandable what he's going through - it was presumptuous of me but it seemed to resonate and he didn't combat my thoughts.. I ran through the above timeline and traumatic events. H was very attentive and it felt like he was surprised that I get it. I told him that I will stick it out or give him the D he wants. I just want him to be happy and let him know that for this reason, I didn't shed a single tear through the conversation. H cried a couple times. H left and appeared to be in deep thought - not much talking from his end. He managed to 1. express fear that I'm just faking my positive changes and that if he returns, it'll be bad again because anyone can be fake for a couple of hours. 2. note that he has many bad days (depressed?) but they're not all attributable to me. 3. share that he doesn't want to rush into D but in Jan he had second thoughts which is why H suggested daily talks. He's trying to figure it out. 4. Remind me that he's still leaning towards D but isn't sure. (My response was to schedule time with mediator for this week. He suggested we wait until after Easter 3/31). There's been no mention of D since. H also happened to mention that he's not sure God can help him. H is sure he needs to do this alone. At end of talk, he said he'd need a couple days to recover and connect. Still hasn't brought any of this back up.
Apr 2024: Early in April, for the first time, I shared how this is impacting me. I let him know that he abandoned me, the kids and the house. It's hard to maintain everything with 2 dogs while going through medical issues. H initial response was to walk out but he caught himself and talked it out. I thanked him and acknowledged that he had made a positive change. H was happy to see that I noticed. H agrees that I haven't been pressuring him nor do I give him anxiety like I did. He's gotten more comfortable with holding hands and spending time together, but still doesn't suggest dates. We only get together for cancer. I asked if he'd reach out when he's ready to talk again and he said he would. I asked him if he was scared to talk to me - H said no. I think he's begun to awaken and feel ashamed...and scared to admit it/apologize. I could be wrong....and hopeful. I sent him a text after spending happy hours together - no response. Why is he a picture perfect husband through cancer appts days and then a stranger?
Our anniversary is in 2 days. We haven't made any reference to it yet. He's taking me to a cancer appt that day. What do I do?
All this time (Dec 2023 through now): H pulls into the garage like he still lives here. H wears his wedding band daily. H comes into the master bedroom and chooses to use the M bath. H provides hugs willingly if requested and approved. H ghosts me between appts - and if I reach out with a rare text, he doesn't respond. H has no interest in repairing nor maintaining our home. "I have my own to take care of". H will suggest we play cards (like we would) or binge watch Netflix for an afternoon (like we would). H refuses therapy. H knows I love him and will never give up trying...but will give him D if that's what he wants. I (and kids) have been in therapy since Sept 2023 I have learned about codependency and tried to go dark in Feb/Mar/Apr but it's hard with cancer and I'm not convinced that I really want to drop the rope. I still wonder (without evidence) if there is an affair that I'm not seeing. I continue to offer a listening ear and to help him at anytime. I have GAL to a larger degree than I thought I could but find myself addicted to learning about where he is in the MLC phases (and if it's MLC that he's going through). I think of his wellbeing before mine and some days, still cry OUT LOUD for hours like this happened yesterday. I turn to God often and try to honor "Thy will be done." but don't always know how to implement this in practice. I've read many many many articles, including HB and some DB. Still, I struggle to apply what I read. I can't always connect the reading to my situation and timeline.
Is this MLC? Do I need to drop the rope or continue with enjoying as much time as he'll offer? Is he turning a corner and beginning to 'accept'? or is he still in replay? Do I continue to embrace him coming into the house as he does (comfortably)? What boundaries do I establish? Am I doing this right? wrong? What can I change to move us along as I feel like he continues to escape/avoid when there isn't an appt? Do I acknowledge our 26th anniversary in 2 days? If so, how?
While continuing to read through T2's threads, this resonated. My W hasn't gone for the crazy spew for she is too smart and introspective on her own. The dissonance and conflict within does generate warped thinking and feeling though. With detachment now I can more clearly see it. To me, the warping was too subtle to see at first when delivered by the person I trusted most in the world.
Originally Posted by Kimmerz
But this time around, I was able to read that without taking it personally and looking at it objectively, as if maybe it were a friend asking me to read this from her WAS/MLCer. This time what I saw was someone taking absolutely no responsibility for their issues or emotions. Someone playing the complete victum. It was almost as if he were in complete denial of his very own life that he chose to partake in. Also in complete denial of how he sabatoged many things, yet pointed the finger at me.
W, "G, you know I never went looking for this." Because I wasn't the initiator, I'm justified accepting OM's attentions.
W, "I can't go back! I have to burn it all down to the ground so I can move forward." My current feelings for OM override values and principles I have lived by. I can see no other path than follow my feelings.
W, "I know I never thew a fit or stomped my feet but...." I just let my resentment build.
W, "G, how long did you expect me to wait?" I'm a passive victim waiting for you to be who I wanted you to be.
W, "I had to do EVERYTHING" I believe all my chosen life / lifestyle choices were yours to do also.
Negative sentiment override. I have the messages where she praises me for taking care of "everything" while she pursues chosen career and outside the home activities for years.
I asked my sister #2 about that last one for a reality check and described what "everything" included. This sister is perfectly willing to 2X4 me over my head. Was I really that bad? Sister, "but G, every one of those things were life and careeer choices SHE CHOSE! Now she is unhappy with the result of her own choices. And she is repeating those same patterns now..."
W, "There wasn't US time. We didn't go out and do things together." You are responsible for US not making time for ourselves.
As W kept the family social and kids schedule. She booked activities for her and kids 6+ days a week. When asked about which thing(s) to give up to make time...I never got an answer. Me? Well, I should have just overridden instead of asked and waited. I had been trying to give respect in our agreed domains.
W, "No one will understand. I'll always be the villian."
I just registered so that I can join this community that I've benefited so much from over the last 2 months. My initial bomb drop was Feb 2023 and after 6 seemingly good (normal) months, a second bomb drop came in Sept 2023. This one was most serious and he couldn't be in the same room with me. Couldn't look at me. Wanted a divorce. My husband bought a house and moved out just before the holidays.
I did all the 'wrong' things (begging, pleading, angry outbursts, etc.) until I learned about existential crisis and midlife crisis ... or at least to the level/detail I've been reading about it since Feb 2024. It hurts - still! The heartache is pain that takes the breath away, that doesn't seem to clear easily, brings on legitimate panic attacks.
He asked for space and that was exactly what he needed. It's not what I wanted and it was a hard gift to grant him because I craved him, his attention, his voice, his embrace, joint dinners... But, with God's help, I have given his space and left him with God to guide. Neither one of us understood why he needed space but I can tell you in hindsight that we've both matured - it's emotional maturity that we observe in each other. Neither one of us is the same person we were a year ago.
In the midst of all this, I learned I had cancer in November. Somehow I no longer had germs that he avoided like the plague, but I was still not someone he could live with. Oddly, he was interested in taking me to cancer appts/surgery/treatments that continue still. The appts are frequent enough that we're able to keep a pulse on each other and sometimes we enjoy a meal together before he drops me off at 'our' home. And then he goes radio silent until the next appt. Before I read about crisis behavior, I would text or call in between doctor's visits but he would ghost me. Now I don't reach out because he's escaping and avoiding me - and I'm reminded that he asked for space.
Don't give up on your spouse is my advice to you. It's a long and hard road to travel, but only you know if your relationship is worth waiting for. Their confusion and fears tend to trickle into our lives, but only if we let them. We aren't confused as people but we are confused by their actions. Take the time to enjoy your daughter (yes, I know it's hard) and do the things that you haven't found the time to enjoy (yes, also hard to do when you want to return to the life you've enjoyed). Underneath that mask and monster is the same person you learned to love. If you believe in God, return to your faith and deepen your beliefs. I'll pray for you tonight.
thank you for the support. i hope things work out for you.
I just registered so that I can join this community that I've benefited so much from over the last 2 months. My initial bomb drop was Feb 2023 and after 6 seemingly good (normal) months, a second bomb drop came in Sept 2023. This one was most serious and he couldn't be in the same room with me. Couldn't look at me. Wanted a divorce. My husband bought a house and moved out just before the holidays.
I did all the 'wrong' things (begging, pleading, angry outbursts, etc.) until I learned about existential crisis and midlife crisis ... or at least to the level/detail I've been reading about it since Feb 2024. It hurts - still! The heartache is pain that takes the breath away, that doesn't seem to clear easily, brings on legitimate panic attacks.
He asked for space and that was exactly what he needed. It's not what I wanted and it was a hard gift to grant him because I craved him, his attention, his voice, his embrace, joint dinners... But, with God's help, I have given his space and left him with God to guide. Neither one of us understood why he needed space but I can tell you in hindsight that we've both matured - it's emotional maturity that we observe in each other. Neither one of us is the same person we were a year ago.
In the midst of all this, I learned I had cancer in November. Somehow I no longer had germs that he avoided like the plague, but I was still not someone he could live with. Oddly, he was interested in taking me to cancer appts/surgery/treatments that continue still. The appts are frequent enough that we're able to keep a pulse on each other and sometimes we enjoy a meal together before he drops me off at 'our' home. And then he goes radio silent until the next appt. Before I read about crisis behavior, I would text or call in between doctor's visits but he would ghost me. Now I don't reach out because he's escaping and avoiding me - and I'm reminded that he asked for space.
Don't give up on your spouse is my advice to you. It's a long and hard road to travel, but only you know if your relationship is worth waiting for. Their confusion and fears tend to trickle into our lives, but only if we let them. We aren't confused as people but we are confused by their actions. Take the time to enjoy your daughter (yes, I know it's hard) and do the things that you haven't found the time to enjoy (yes, also hard to do when you want to return to the life you've enjoyed). Underneath that mask and monster is the same person you learned to love. If you believe in God, return to your faith and deepen your beliefs. I'll pray for you tonight.
I'm glad that I was able to bring you to thought...
I've always been a "teach a Man to fish" kind of poster rather than a "give a Man a fish"...
KWIM ?
Over the years, and because of my friendship with Jack. I have also become friends with Mrs. J3B, and we have had several conversations about her time in MLC, what she was thinking (or lack thereof) , what she was seeing, feeling, etc....
And one reason I bring this up with you, is about the balance of what I speak of....
Nothing...
Everything...
It's a razors edge for sure.
One thing that I was told by her, was that she was always watching, often times not believing even though it was in front of her. And it was the integrity that Jack acted with, that first made her want to watch more closely. And it was his consistency that eventually prompted her to be more inquisitive.
Which is odd, because Jack always said that his pride was his "ride or die"....
Pride was the hill that he stood on, often times for far too long, and one of his greatest opponents. He walked that line daily, between it being motivation, yet not allowing it to become his downfall.
Mrs. Beans said that after her "bottom", she knew that she had 3 choices to make....
She could return the the marriage, hoping that what she saw had become real...
She could continue with status quo, knowing that it never really fulfilled her heart...
Or, she could remain alone forever, because Jack was her one true love...
Jack, on the other hand. The King of "stop snooping" , found her journal one day that she had left during a visit with the boys....
And there were multiple pages with merely....
"I MISS JACK"
In various scripts and colors....
While hopeful...he had DB on one shoulder, and Pride sat firmly entrenched on the other...
What she feared, and the thing that she worked the hardest to overcome...
Was the feeling of being judged..
And the fear of being judged, while it being strong from others....
Played a vital role in her having difficulties with forgiveness....
I linked T2's thread because I see a lot of his posting style in you....
The way he processed, and thought. I see that you could be Kindred posters, and that you could learn from one hell of a guy. He too went through a metamorphosis to become what he should have always been. And I think a lot of us have done that post bomb, and many have been surprised on how instinctively that has happened for us.
I have also witnessed several Men in that situation burn out quickly from doing that. The sustained instant accountability becomes overwhelming if the reason is merely obtaining a goal. When the goal fades, so does the façade of changing because we simply felt the need to change...
Mind you, that has NOT happened with T2, and only time will tell with your story..
This process....DB.....
Is about consistency (as you know by now).....
DBing is a way of life for me now, and why do it at all if I wasn't going to continue it.
You're a deep thinker Grok, and sometimes deep thinkers scare me a bit.
As I think about it , what comes to mind is....
"Beware The Ides of March....."
I see a strong, capable, confident man taking the wheel and steering the ship....
What I also see....
Is a strong, capable man taking the wheel and steering the ship....
Be careful Grok....on which shoulder wins...
Keep reading T2....
Things get interesting around thread 14, 15, 16.....
Some direct advice/suggestions: Do not contact her in an attempt to change her mind. She has to come to that herself.
Your need/idea of getting rejected again, to see her again, that angry emotional person again - little good will come from that.
aph, you are figuring this out. Rationalizing what has happened and W’s behaviours. That is a daunting and difficult task when one’s spouse has/is behaving non-rationally and driven by emotions. Your efforts towards rationalizing is healthy forward progress.
great advice. my wanting to contact her has subsided as i know it would lead to more pain.
Encouraging you to burn every ounce of fuel to outlast her MLC, to find a way through this while causing minimal damage. To find one more day within yourself. He would ask if she was worth it, the waiting for her to figure herself out before a bell was rung that could not be un-rung..
He would tell you that your spouse carried your marriage at times on her back, and that maybe it's just your time to carry the marriage for while.
Originally Posted by J3B
"Today is not the day I quit, maybe I will tomorrow, but let's see what tomorrow brings"
He would also tell you to use your anger as a shield, not as a sword with your interactions....
And that there is nothing that you can say or do to change this, yet everything that you say or do will change this....
LOL, yea....when that makes sense, you will be on your way....
I wanted to tell her its not my problem anymore but i told her what i would do but that didnt work for them. she complained that she broke a nail and it was bleeding trying to start it.
A new behavior that I added to my interactions with women after my divorce:
My lady asked me today: "Can you move my car so it is facing out?" My response was: "Yes, would you mind moving my laundry from the washer to the dryer?"
Typically a yes for a yes.
It started with:
If a woman asks if you will buy her a drink, an enthusiastic "YES, after you buy me one! with a wink."
