Here are my other 2 threads:
WAW - We are in a "Hang Loose" mode for nowI am hopeful and will ride this outSummary:
- Great marriage and happy family for over 8 years.
- W gets a job as an assitant pre-school teacher and starts going night clubbing with co-workers.
- W gets addicted to clubbing and flirting.
- W gets genital herpes. She says it was a friends lipstick. I believe her.
- I discover she talks a lot with various OM on her cell phone.
- I confront W and get "I dont love you" talk.
- I beg and pursue stupidly for a month or so.
- I seek guidance and support from a counselor, friends and family. This may have been a mistake as too many know for W to come back, however, I would have had a nervous breakdown holding it in.
- W has no one that agrees what she is doing is right.
- W moves out upon my insistence if she is going to date OM's. The kids stay in the house with me. She apparently moves to stay with co-worker.
- I eventually gain strength and happiness in knowing that I will be ok without W. I still dont want a D because of the kids sake. I leave the door to my heart open.
- W includes our kids as part of her A with rich OM who happens to be 67. She says she is test driving him to see if he gets along with the kids. I file D because this is so sick and twisted and inappropriate to show kids that permiscuous behavior is ok.
- W sees a lawyer, who starts talking her into going after a stake in my ownership of software company (which I had before our marriage) I work at or a portion of any future riches I achieve after the D. This really gets me mad. I talk W into seeing a mediator so as to save us from losing our friendship and lots of legal fees in a D fight.
- We start sharing kids as part of a parenting plan we agree on.
- W includes co-worker as part of her lie that she was living with co-worker, but instead with OM. Co-worker is furious and feels betrayed. W most likely will lose her job soon.
- W finally admits to a "one night stand" which most likely resulted in genital herpes.
- W sees her life falling apart and starts to play the victim.
- W has still never given any indication other than some hugs and kisses that she wants to save our M. I believe she likes me as the security in her life, but will never love me again.
- The door to my heart for my W is closed, locked and the key has been lost. I do not love her anymore and can't see myself loving her deeply again.
W and I had a little argument this morning when she stopped by the house before work. I asked her again that I need her to get our parenting plan file from her lawyer so that we can take it to the mediator. From there, she said crazy things like I have changed, she is going to give me the D I want, everyone including myself is going to have a good laugh at what she has become, etc... I think she wants to say she wants back, but she just does not have it in her to open up.
I ended up writing her a letter saying that we need to not argue and that it was the wrong time to have such a talk. I also told her that it is probably not best for her to be playing the victim card and that regardless of her choices, we need to work together through and after this divorce.
I feel for you. The feeling of being betrayed by the woman you love is about the most painful emotion I have ever experienced. I wish I was able to turn the page on my W & M, move on, and be OK with it all like you seem to. I guess there is no point to my post other than to let you know I have been following your sitch and am thinking about you.
I had some interesting phone calls with W and her best friend last night.
In the first call from W, she was keying off the letter I wrote her yesterday. She said that she had been wanting to talk this weekend about herself returning to our M, but that she can read I have changed and that I am ok moving ahead with the D. I told her to open up and tell my why all of sudden the change of heart. She could not say. She asked what it would take for me to have her back. I told her I need to hear first why she wants back. She would not say as she is stubborn.
I then called her best friend so as to help me figure out my W's motives. The best friend does not approve of what my W has done, however, she does strongly believe that our M can be saved. She told me about some friends of hers that went through a similar problem like ours and saved their M. I kept telling her that I just did not have any love for W anymore and it would be up to W to convince me otherwise. I told her that my family and friends want me to just move on and that I feel that I can find someone better than W. She pleaded with us to wait it out longer - she said that a D is just a piece of paper. She told me to think deeply about what is in my heart.
I called W later in the evening to try and see if she would open up more. It was probably bad timing as the kids were still up, however, she did talk about what has been happening with her mind over the last week. She said that each time she wanted to talk to me seriously about the possibility of coming back, something would happen (ie. her teacher friend getting outraged). She also mentioned that she got some encouragement from another teacher about her seeing a counselor to help in dealing with her inner self. I did not hear anything from her where she indicated that she loved me and that she wanted to return to being a good wife. As far as I can tell, I think that I have been the safety net and now that she has messed up her life so bad, that she wants to come back to me wanting me to fix everything for her.
We may have a face to face talk tonight. I will listen. My feelings now are that I hate getting a D for the fact that it splits the kids time with each of us, it makes it more difficult for one parent at a time to raise the kids, and the financial situation gets hit hard. I miss the family bond we once had. However, I am now the WAH and it would be up to my W to convince me that our M could be reborn. I know that there is a way back, but I dont think she has the strength or couage to do that. I think that it is her culture and pride which prevents her from seeking redemption and admitting she has done wrong. She knows that members of my family will never look at her the same and that she has betrayed my trust.
As a start, I think she would have to promise to never go out to night clubs without me again. No girls night out either. She has shown that she cant be trusted. Also, she would have to severe ties with all the OM she had met in the bars, including the one she is living with now. She would need to go to a personal counselor, marriage counseling, Retrouville, watch Michelle's "Keeping the love Alive" dvd, and read R books. She will need to learn to open up to me and not keep secrets to herself. She will need to try and patch up her relationship with her mother and brother. Most of all, she needs to convince me that our family and myself are the most important thing in her life.
It would take quite a while to rebuild by love for her and I dont know if it can be done. She will need to change. She will need to show me that she wants to do something with her life and that she can make herself happy on her own. The biggest hurdle she faces now is that I know that there are much better ladies out there that I can fall in love with. She needs to be one of those ladies that a man would consider a keeper.
We all went to the Cub Scout Blue and Gold dinner tonight. I think W actually enjoyed it as they had a cool chinese dragon dance. One big thing I noticed tonight was that she was wearing the big diamond ring I bought her a couple years after we got married. Afterwards, when we got back to my house, she did not have time to do the talk she wanted as she needed to get the kids back to OM's house and to bed. She said that OM was out doing stuff with his granddaughter so she could not come back to talk. We had a big hug and kiss at the door. It was a good night doing things as a family again. I kind of forgot that we are going through a D.
Sounds like a nice night. I fantasize about the first kiss with W - I'm jealous!
You sound resolute in your feelings about wanting to go ahead with D, though if the tables were turned would you have taken that night as a baby step back to R/M? Maybe if you looked at your list of things W would need to do for you to take her back. Those are a lot of pretty monumental requirements. But pick a few easy steps that would bring her in that direction, and just ask if she would do it? The most neglected chapter in DR, I believe, is the one about asking for what you want. If she succeeds, then think about what the next step would be, and the next, and so on. Then gauge whether that is enough for you to keep your family together.
I'm no pro at all this, just my thoughts. I am thinking about you.
Wow Kerry,
What an interesting turn of events.. now your WAW is interested in returning home and you're not sure if you want her. That's amazing. Well only you know what's best for you and your kids (which your kids are gorgeous).. I'm sure you will weigh the options and come to the right conclusion for everyone...
It is nice for a LBS like me to see that your W is making comments about wanting to come home.. It gives some hope.
All the best to you.
W2G
It would take quite a while to rebuild by love for her and I dont know if it can be done. She will need to change. She will need to show me that she wants to do something with her life and that she can make herself happy on her own. The biggest hurdle she faces now is that I know that there are much better ladies out there that I can fall in love with. She needs to be one of those ladies that a man would consider a keeper.
Your W is obviously in a position where she really needs to show you that she wants back in the M - I'd say first step would be to move out of OM's place and find somewhere of her own... Kind of stupid that she asks about reconciliation, then has to go back to OM's house to put the kids to bed.
Sounds like you've raised the bar quite a way and your W is just smacking her head off it right now
I've chewed over the same thoughts a lot in the last month or so - I certainly have not experienced the same hurt and distrust as you, but in many ways my W is a 'known', where as someone new might have just as many stupid problems that they're not dealing with.
W just called this morning asking if I wanted to spend time together today as a family. I declined as I have too many other things I needed to get done and I just need some time to myself.
I dont know what she is thinking now. Does she want back for convenience and to save her face or because she loves me? She had told me on Friday that she returned a lot of the things that were bought for the kids rooms at OM's place. She also did not know how she was going to pay OM back for the furniture he had bought the kids. I get the feeling she thinks that she can just move back with me and everything will be as it once was.
I believe that if one were to talk to couples who have long (50 year) M's, a lot may say that they had at least one big problem in their M, and that after getting over it, they were able to get to stage 5 which Michelle talks about in the marriage map. However, my grandparents were M'd for over 50 years and towards the end they sure seemed to hate each other with quite a passion.
I agree with BritInOH that my W is a 'known' and we do have a history together. There is a lot of good in my W and we have had a lot of fun times together. Finding someone new for me is going to have its own pains and frustrations. I dated a lot of women before I found W, and I suspect the same would be true now. I never had any doubt in my mind when I decided to marry W. I figure that if I find someone else, and am sure she is the right one, I at least will have the advantage this time that she will be older and past any MLC stage of her life.
I am keeping an open mind for now and will let W know that she needs to convince me why she thinks our M will succeed.
W stopped by this morning before we both went to work. We had another long embrace with kisses. There still is something between us, but I dont know what it is.
I reminded her that this Wed we are seeing a mediator to negotiate and finalize our D papers and asked her what she thought. She said she had talked to her best friend and now thinks she should move to an apartment so as to live on her own for a while. Oh joy, that means that I will be paying spousal support, but that will proably lower the child support. We will see what the mediator recommends.
Hi Kerry,
The thing with all that bar hopping (believe me, I have been through it) is that it gets old. W will burn-out on it sooner or later. She will start arguing with the other barflys (alcohol and her M sitch tends to incite that)and be less inclined to go to those places. You are probably seeing signs of that already.
Best,
--Chris
We had our meeting with the mediator. It went well and my W liked the mediator, but we each need to get a detailed budget so as to come up with a fair figure for spousal support. The mediator feels that our case will be no problem as we both seem to be so friendly to each other
Now that W plans to move into an apartment, our finances will be really stretched. Oh well, it is only money. I will make more.
W and I went to lunch afterwards and then came home and had a good R talk. When she left to go for major dental surgery, we both had a very passionate kiss at the door.
Question...and I mean no offense by this so don't take it that way Kerry...
but why in the world are you so worried about W's living arrangements...isn't she the one that left? She has made her bad and now has to lie in it. I am assuming she has the kids most of the time and that is why? Could you get the kids permanently for the time being anyway until W gets her head back on straight. I mean it just seems like you could easily get them given her lifestyle now and poor choices such as getting a STD.
I only ask because I need to bank the info. incase I come accross this at some point since my MLC H left to fulfill all that was unfulfilled and feels the partying, clubbing, and bar hopping is the only life he has ever truly wanted and our life was a farce, all 19 years of it.
Thanks for stopping by Heather - good question. I am indeed worried where W lives because the kids spend 50% of their time with her. The local apartments I reviewed have comments about shady tenants and bad managers. That is what you get with apartments I guess. I probably will give W back her guns for protection.
I am going to suggest to W that she move to an apartment and that we should hold off on the next mediator meeting as it will take time for her to figure out her living expenses. Also, I believe she wants to date me (and OM) while living at the apartment. There is no hurry to finish the D yet. Part of me wants to move on in life without her, but there are the voices of Michelle and LadyDi in my head reassuring me that no marriage (without violence) should be given up on. I want to have more time before throwing in the towel on my M. I can still see a life together with my W and cannot just give up on that now.
This morning, my W brought me Valentine chocolates and a balloon on a stick, along with some things from the kids. I gave her a card I made up this morning on the computer. We hugged at the door. W did not want to kiss in front of D5, but we still got a short kiss and I looked at D5 who had the cutest smile on her face.
You MLC H will come to a point where the partying, clubbing and bar hoping is going to wear down. How long this takes is the hard part for you, but I really believe he will change with time. You have way too much time in your M to give up. Just keep reading back to what LadyDi said as inspiration in Johns thread. Continue on with patience and do things for yourself and kids now. It is all so very tough, but you can do it. If not for yourself now, do it for your kids who are about the same age and gender as mine. They deserve to have both a mother and father living together with love guiding them along their path to adulthood.
It is all so very tough, but you can do it. If not for yourself now, do it for your kids who are about the same age and gender as mine. They deserve to have both a mother and father living together with love guiding them along their path to adulthood.
Kerry-
Thanks for the honest reply and the advice. So do you think with the above quote you SHOULD indeed practice what you preach...lol. Don't give up on your W just yet either.
Dude you are doing great...I have the same feelings about my wife....if she wanted to come back(she doesnt)I would have a hard time trusting her again...but when we hug I feel the embers still glowing...its confusing.......getting yours out of OMs place is a first step.....praying for you.....
So do you think with the above quote you SHOULD indeed practice what you preach...lol. Don't give up on your W just yet either.
I am ready for either a D or to reconcile. It is up to my W. I would prefer to rebuild our M and I want to still take our time before the D becomes final. I know there is a path back to making our M better and I am going to be patient to see if W will choose that path.
I agree with you 100%. I am waiting also for the day we reconcile and rebuild our marriage and family together. Fortunately in my case H has made no attempts and has not even mentioned legal sep. or D. I was the only one talking like that trying to support him and then realized I was planting the seed in his head and stopped. I don't know how it play out but we all need to keep looking to God for help and answers and pray for him to help us be patient and strong.
I got home tonight after golf, working out and shopping for a special meal (steak, crab and aspargus) to make for myself - walked through the door and noticed there was a potted flower plant and and an envelope. After making my meal (microwave went belly up on me), I sat down to eat and read the valentine's day card. It was from W and this is what it said:
Dear Kerry...
Thank you for the card this morning. I'll keep it in my mind. I honest with you I've thought about our time together as a family. But I don't know... Somehow... There're something else in there. I'll figure it out. Thank you again for being here for me. I'll talk to you later. And, you can count on me.
Missed you...my everything.
Nui
So I ended up calling W and told her I was surprised to get a card and thanked her. I told her that I thought it best that we cancel our next mediator appointment on Mar 5 so that she can have more time to determine her budget, and also more importantly, figure out whether she wants to stay in our M. She said she would think about it.
Also, I discussed this idea with her friend this morning and her friend agreed that W just needs time on her own. Her friend told me that various people that have found out about our pending D have actually cried when they found out. Apparently, our M and family was quite the envy of others.
So my plan is to just continue as I have been - keeping myself and kids happy and busy. I dont intend to push W to make up her mind. I want her to figure her self out on her own time. I might suggest that after she gets her major dental surgery taken care of, that I would be supportive of her seeing a psychiatrist which she had suggested wanting to see recently.
That card sounds like a good positive step from her, a baby step. I sure hope she comes around and realizes what she is about to give up. Best of luck to you.
So my plan is to just continue as I have been - keeping myself and kids happy and busy. I dont intend to push W to make up her mind. I want her to figure her self out on her own time.
Hey Kerry,
I think this is exactly what you should do. Your W seems so incredibly confused, I don't think she really knows what she wants. If you push her to choose you'll just push her away. It's good that you're ready for either path, but it sounds like she can earn your love again if that's what she chooses...as they say, patience can be your best friend.
Kerry,
It sounds like things are moving in the right direction. You are doing something right. Pulling for you
Not much going on with my situation. W agrees we should cancel the next mediator session so as to not rush the D. She also wants me (and the kids) to go out to dinner on her BD. Baby steps and I am very patient right now.
Not much going on with my situation. W agrees we should cancel the next mediator session so as to not rush the D. She also wants me (and the kids) to go out to dinner on her BD. Baby steps and I am very patient right now.
Cool! Sounds like things are pretty calm - Hopefully she will take some time for reflection.
Sorry if I missed this - Is she seeing a C or a psych? Other than the obvious, is there anything going on with her? Depression, etc?
My W has mentioned recently that she would like to see a psych. The teacher she works for thinks it will do her a lot of good. I sent W a link to the web site for the author that wrote the "Walk out woman" book who practices nearby. My mother has even mentioned that my W should be checked to see if she is bi-polar.
My W has mentioned recently that she would like to see a psych. The teacher she works for thinks it will do her a lot of good. I sent W a link to the web site for the author that wrote the "Walk out woman" book who practices nearby. My mother has even mentioned that my W should be checked to see if she is bi-polar.
Great first step - Make sure she sees both a psych and a C. It may be helpful if you can get the two to share information so they can help her more. I'm sure there is a load of stuff going on behind the scenes that you don't know about and she has no clue how to deal with... Maybe like my W it's really old stuff that just built up over time.
Somehow I injured my knee working out on Sunday. So I stupidly went and worked out yesterday and made it worse. I could hardly sleep last night as the pain was unbearable like a sprain. So I ended up calling W and asked her to come over in the morning to help me get the kids ready for school as I could hardly walk.
I called today and cancelled our next mediator session.
Last night I had a good long talk with W's friend and she said to just give W time. During our talk, W kept trying to call me. When I finally picked up, she asked who I was talking to and I told her it was her friend. I told W that I want to give her all the time she wants in figuring out life. She thanked me and said right now she just wants to concentrate on getting her teeth fixed and then will figure out about seeing a counselor/psych. She also got the bill from her L and it was over 2000 for just some talking and filing out of a parenting plan. She is so discusted with the wasting of our money on this.
Also, last night when I was putting the kids to bed, S7 said he did not think mommy was going to come back to me as she has quite the long kisses with OM. I told him to not worry about that and everything will turn out ok one way or the other.
Sorry to hear you messed up your knee. Those things are made of glass or something.
It is crazy how your positions have almost reversed now that she's slowly becoming the LBS. I've read about it here b4 but it seems preposterous to me right now as I see my wife being so cold and distant and me wanting her back so much.
You've made amazing progress.
Did you get a lot out of reading that "Walk out woman" book? It certainly sounds like the right subject matter and it has great reviews on amazon.
Amazingly, the knee is back to normal now. I must be eating something right or the heating pad was the trick.
I am not going to be the WAH as I value marriage and my family too much. I also am trying hard to continue to love my W unconditionally. My attitude now is that even though she is no upholding her vows in our M, that does not mean that I should discard those vows myself.
Right now, it feels like we have a good chance to bust this D. We hugged tightly at the door this morning, but I know she has a long way to go. First thing she will need to do is move out from the OM place.
I did not really get that much out of the Walk out woman book as it did not give me, the LBH any solutions - just understanding of what she is going through. I did give it to my WAW a few months back as it is really something that the WAW would get more benefit from. Of course, the WAW is not in a state of mind to read such a thing. Maybe I will try to give it to her again to see if she might read it as her attitude is different now.
Maybe I will try to give it to her again to see if she might read it as her attitude is different now.
I wouldn't. Anything that comes from you is likely to be disregarded and it just pressures/shames them.
Hold onto your hope and keep your expectations as low as you can.
What are your plans for the weekend?
Grace -
You are probably right - she is not a book reader anyway.
I am taking the kids swimming Friday night as W has to work as a waitress, but have the rest of the weekend to myself. I will probably get some workouts in, hit a bucket of balls, and finish my taxes on Sat or Sun (which ever one is yucky weather). I actually am considering going out to a bar (I dont drink and I dont like bars) to see a guy I work with play in his band. That would be something different to keep me out of my lonely quiet house.
I also have a couple emails received and sent on plentyoffish.com as I have a profile on there of just looking for a friend/someone to hang out with. I was specifically looking for others there that are seperated so as to have someone in a similar situation to talk face to face with. I just dont have any other friends that have time to do things with me now. I do need to use caution as I dont want to go out with anyone looking for an R since I am still committed to saving my own M.
I think I will also look into joining some of the outdoor/hiking groups at meetup.com to keep myself busy during this lengthy time of waiting for my W to figure out what she wants in life.
I agree with Grace. She will come around in her own time. My sitch is about the same as far as her turning around in her own time. In the very beginning she was making all sorts of changes, being more attractive to em in the process, and was telling me that she was the happiest she has ever been... free, etc.
Then she started looking like she was not sleeping. Wehn asked why, she said it was because she was worried about me... the LBH! Ha! I think it was more because she was feeling guilty. Anyway, sorry for the digression. I had made an appointment for a mediator for me and my WAW but she never responded for the best time for her. She felt it was something that would benefit me and interrogate her. She was totally wrong there. But it serves as an example. I did notice that the last visit to the house, she has a lot of the books that I was reading about parenting the children after divorce.
I hope that it is not firming her view on D, but that is up to her not me. Anyway, i know how things can seem to others, i have had that happen.
I would caution you to be careful with the plenty of fish contacts. I know that people say that want "friends". I also know how vulnerable we all are. There's nothing wrong with having women friends, but you need to be careful of the situations you put yourself in (IMO). I know that there are groups around me of men and women respectively that get together for different activities. You can even find them on craig's list.
An intersting read (no, don't recommend it to your spouse) is "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by judith Wallerstein. It is based on a 25 year (limited) study. I found it a worthwhile read.
Enjoy the weekend and do get out some. It's good for the soul.
Yes, indeed I must use caution with the fish contacts. I have gotten so patient waiting for my W to come around and I dont want to blow that by getting a girlfriend now.
Thanks for the tip about craigslist. They have all kinds of groups there (laughing group, satanic breast feeding group, etc..). I should be able to find something of interest.
I would much prefer to find some group that is all males.
The "Hold onto your N.U.T.s" book has as one of its 8 betterman tools to develop trusting relationships with other men. Maybe I should look into something like the Mason's.
I just noticed that I will be receiving "Why Did I Get Married" from NetFlix tomorrow. Has anyone seen this movie before? Apparently it deals with various marriage problems and it is supposed to be quite good.
I think I'll check out the book just for giggles. Afterall, with a title like that.....
I haven't seen the movie, but I've heard it's pretty funny. I've found that some movies get to me in a negative way. All I do then is turn it off. Then again some have had a surprisingly positive effect. I hope it's good.
Now, what are your plans for the weekend?
Hi Grace -
The "N.U.T.s" in the book title stands for "Non-Negotiable Unalterable Terms". Basically, it is the personal things us guys can't give in on. The second half of the book is all about the 8 betterman tools which are really great. This is a book that probably is not that useful for women. It is my favorite of all the R books I have ever read. The author has a very interesting web site:
http://www.bettermen.org/I have decided to go skiing by myself tomorrow. I will probably blow out my knee as I am a telemark skier, but what the heck, I haven't been skiing by myself since I have been married.
I have decided to go skiing by myself tomorrow.
Very good. Have fun with that and don't blow out your knee.
Watch those knees. I've been doing smith squats and aside from building up my quads, it's really helping my knees. Enjoy the skiing.
Thanks for the inside on the book, but I'm always up for learning something new. Even if it doesn't apply to me. I'm just a squirel that stores stuff away. You never know when you'll be able to pass along or use a peice of info.
Hey kerryK!
Haven't checked on you in a week. Glad W seems to be coming to her senses, even if only in a baby-step way. Hopefully she can do some C to get herself straightened out. Our MC says H and I can't progress much further until his does the same. A lot of his "stuff" is "His Stuff" and he has to work on it so we can work on us. Maybe you are going to be the same way. Sucks for your kids to be pointing out W's kisses to OM, for them to have to be in the middle of things.
I agree to be leery about the online friends thing. I want friends, too. My sister is no doubt sick of hearing about my troubles. But I know personally the lack of FEELING loved by H has me vulnerable. I am actually worried that when I go back to work full time I will be leaving myself vulnerable if someone (male) starts to give me attention, make me feel special, etc. The only man in my life I want is my H but I know that 8 months of desperately wanting to FEEL loved may make me weakened if I am around a guy who wants to give that to me. So just guard yourself in your discussions with others and I am sure you will be fine.
Good luck and I will check back soon!
Well, I had wanted to go skiing, but W had to work last night as a waitress fill in at her friends restaraunt. She also has tremondous pain from 2 root canals and she was going to load up on vicotin after work, so I have the kids. I took them swimming last night and now and in limbo today trying to get a hold of W. If she does not call soon, I am taking the kids out to teach them some golf and then maybe to the zoo.
W's friend (who she worked for yesterday) called me late last night. Apparently, W showed up real early to talk with her and started talking all about ME! However, the cook came out and they had to stop their conversation. He friend really thinks that it sounds like W misses me a lot and that things look very hopeful.
I hope to be free tomorrow to go skiing although today was supposed to be nice and sunny. I just hope it is cold enough tomorrow so that it does not rain up on the mountain.
Hope things are looking up for you. Good to hear your W is talking about you and seems interested again. Hope you get to go skiing, too. I am off to rest my stupid foot, what a pain in the butt........
It was a pretty good weekend for me. I took the kids golfing (putt putt and driving range) on Sat. W showed up as we were finishing the putt putt and I ordered up some lunch for her and the kids next to the windows at the driving range. I practiced hitting some balls and the kids came out and I helped them hit balls. I looked several times throught the window at W and she was smiling and laughing at me and the kids.
After I had my workout in the afternoon, I stopped at the Big 5 sporting goods to buy some golf balls and ended up buing a set of beginner clubs and bag. I am excited to try doing a full game of golf this spring. At least now I have some more things to practice with besides just an 8 iron and a driver.
I went skiing by myself on Sun at Timberline on Mt Hood. I had not been to that place in a very long time and it has changed a lot. A lot of nice long runs and no lines. I like it and will probably take D5 there next weekend while S7 is in chinese school. When I got home, W was there and saw me in my old fashioned ski outfit (knickers) and had a big smile on her face.
W came by this morning and saw me practicing chip shots in the house and had a big smile on her face. I told her that I was doing some collection of Goodwill items in some bags on behalf of the Cub Scouts and I would like her advise on what we dont need anymore. She wants to help out. As we both left to go to work, she came over to my as I was getting in and we had a big hug.
W has 2 more root canal operations and is totally focused on that now. I have myself into a mode where I am just going to be patient and wait for her to tell me what she wants to do - continue D or try reconcilliation. I talked with her best friend on the drive home from skiing and she is really hoping that W and I get back together. This friend has a lot of influence on W, plus she has seen other couples like us that experienced a rough spot in their M get back together.
Kerry! My heart goes out to you, man.
Your situation sounds so difficult, but you seem strong, determined, and you seem to be acting with principle. I really admire your strength and perseverance. I admire your attitude. I am impressed by your patience!
I am glad to hear that W has remained friends with people who respect and honor marriage. Some WAS's withdraw from their old friends - my wife is like that. She has put distance between herself and anyone else who has a pleasant, good marriage. In the past, meeting or spending time with a couple with a functional marriage - not perfect you see, just "good", like most marriages - she would only see the bad, the negative. She would tear down the couple to me in private, comment on how the husband was not attentive or the wife was not respectful. Now, all the people she hangs with are divorced, or separated. All the old friends are gone.
As in your situation, our friends were shocked and dismayed. Many people told me they cried when they learned of our situation. Too many.
On my thread you said my wife does not deserve me. That may be true. She certainly is not behaving very well. What would you say about your own wife? Why do you continue to wait for her? I am in a similar place, I think.
Do I deserve better? I think of marriage as more than an agreement between two people. It is a social contract, something to be honored above individual whims and moods. It is a pretty big responsibility, and I take it seriously. maybe too seriously? The point is, W has no one to rely on at this point. If she is off the deep end (and I think she is), who will help her now? Her father left her when she was a child, when things were difficult. Shall I leave her, too? I don't want to be an enabler for her poor behavior, but at the same time I don't want to abandon her or "close the door," as you say, either. I won't give her free rein to the money, but I won't get bitter and acrimonious about it either.
Patience is the name of the game.
sir, i admire your attitude concerning being there for your wife. i find myself in the same situation. as far a i am concerned you cannot not take marriage seriously. right now our wives don't feel that way. that is obvious. that is why we have to stand in for our wives and children. it is tough!!! i could not look myself in the mirror if i just gave up. i am willing to take it on the chin, so to speak, to give us a fighting chance. i have a hard time , at times, of not seeing coming from my wife. i just call on the name of the Lord for help. which is very often. dont give up, you are doing the right thing.
You are both so amazingly patient SPM & KerryK.. Why can't I be more patient like the two of you??
Kerry things seem to be really going well for you. I love that your wife smiles big smiles when she looks at you. That must really fill your heart. I know it would mine!
On my thread you said my wife does not deserve me. That may be true. She certainly is not behaving very well. What would you say about your own wife? Why do you continue to wait for her? I am in a similar place, I think.
I am thinking like you. I wait because I hold the commitment I made to my marriage highly. My W and your W could be going off the deep end at this point in their lives. A true friend would not discard them for that, just as a friend would not discard another friend that was an alcoholic. I need to stand by and give her a chance to come back. Patience is indeed the name of the game.
My W's BD is this Thursday and we will both go to an Egyptian night at S7's school so we cant go out to dinner like she had wanted to (free buffet on bd). I am wondering what I should get her?
I had asked my mom for a suggestion and she said to offer her a trip to Vegas with myself if she comes back to me. I had to explain to my mom that would be too controlling and I would need to have a lot of time to rebuild the trust in my M before I go galloping off to Vegas with the woman that has torn my heart apart.
I just spoke with W about whether she was working again as a waitress this Fri. I asked because I needed to confirm if I would need to take care of the kids again, but I forgot that I have them anyway this Fri-Wed. W said that she will probably not work as she would like to make plans on her own to celebrate her BD (I assume with OM). I hurt a little knowing that someone else will be celebrating my W's birthday with her. I will just need to make my time with the kids enjoyable and get my mind off what my W has planned.
Kerry-
See those BIG smiles and the feedback the friend of wife is giving you should all be seen as baby steps for you from her. Now granted if W knew the friend was relaying these things to you she would probably flip out so don't ever say anything.
Keep it up. Don't sweat her Bday. She will have another next year and you can doubley celebrate then since I know your situation will be better then.
Heather
I would say the time together and big smiles are both awesome positives. Keep doing what you are doing! You seem to be making progress here.........
Kerry,
Thank you for the link to the articles on infidelity you posted on my thread today. They are helpful. I've had a difficult time dealing with H's EA/PA. From reading your sitch, you are also dealing with OP. You've done a great job detaching, taking care of your children and taking care of yourself. Your W is showing some positive signs. Keep doing what you've been doing.
Kerry, for W's birthday,
I'd say, get her a card, and maybe a simple inexpensive gift. Something you would give a friend.
I definitely agree with you on the trip to Vegas. Also I think jewelry is probably too much. Maybe a book or a puzzle or something like that, not too personal.
Kerry, I know it will be hard going through the weekend thinking about the birthday celebration she is having without you. I know that is hard. But, ... keep it cool. Stay patient. Think long term. You have regular communication, which is good. You have a future to think about! Don't get anxious about this week - think long term.
I know you dont know me,but I just had to comment.Your story is a really uplifting.Outstanding you can be so strong and commited!I hope i have a chance even close.thanks for posting this sitch.It really helps me and hopefully everybody else!!! thanks very much.Tom
A card it will be from me. I tried shopping with the kids last night for them to get something for her, but we had limited time and I am not much of a shopper. I will have more time tomorrow to go by myself to get something for the kids to give her.
My weekend is going to be ok as I plan to take D5 up skiing and take S7 (along with D5) to a birthday party. I will probably take them golfing again to see if they improve.
Kerry, Just read through your threads. I see lots of positive things that you have done, are doing, and are going through that I am dreaming about. I am just now starting the second month of my separation and am hoping that things improve quickly without me rushing them.
The card is a good idea. It is not pushy but tells her you are thinking about her. Stay strong for the kids and yourself. I will be thinking about you.
I just got back from having lunch with W (at a Thai restaurant). We talked mostly about the kids. She mentioned that a guy and gal we used to know who had opened a restaurant together are now lovers. The guy is married. Pretty weird hearing someone who is in an A herself talking about someone elses A. I told her that from reading in the "Just Friends" book that A's are quite common in marriages.
I asked W if she was still planning on moving to an apartment. She said she would like to but that she is worried about the expense. I told her that it might be better for her to just stay where she is at and come to her own conclusion in time. I told her that I am ok waiting for a long time. She was concerned about me and wanted me to get out and do other things in the meantime. I think she was suggesting that I find a friend that is a girl to do stuff with. I told her that I doubt that I could find any ladies that would want to do stuff with me just as a friend because I would be honest with them when we met and let them know that I am a married man that is having trouble in his marriage and hope to have it work out.
W asked me what I was getting for her BD. I told her I dont know, but that I tried to get something on behalf of the kids last night. She also commented about the nice shirt I was wearing and thought that it did not match my pants. She thinks I should be wearing blue jeans.
As she was driving me back to my office, I told her that I was optimistic that our M will be saved, but that I dont want her to be pushed at all on any timeline. When I was dropped off, she thanked me for lunch and we bumped heads together (she did not want to kiss in public). I told her that she needs to pay off her lawyer soon before there are late fees and she agreed.
I now wish I had not brought up our situation in the conversation, but I cant go back and undo it. It was just one of those nervous moments when you dont have anything else to talk about.
That was nice that the 2 of you could do lunch alone together. I can't get my H to do that, I think he is worried it will be like a yucky date...ewwwwww...lol.
Yeah, you probably could have gone all year without the R talk during lunch, pressure from you. However it doesn't seem like she was put off by it. You didn't mention her mood changing for the worse after you mentioned those things. However just leave it alone now. You gave her food for thought so let her think.
Lots of luck and keep us posted.
Cool!
Hey Kerry - about her comment on the shirt and jeans. Do you know any women who could give you some fashion advice? Maybe they would go shopping with you and help you pick something out? Wouldn't that be a 180 for you, in front of your wife? Would she like it?
could be something to think about.
Actually, I got a comment from 2 guys at work this morning that they liked my shirt. I think W just wanted me to wear the shirt without tucking it in. I tried and it makes me look like a gangster rapper priest. I used to wear all my shirts untucked because W liked it that way - maybe because I had a little belly. I have lost the belly and now feel confident looking fit with a tucked in shirt.
I have noticed that a lot of my shirts are L (wife bought them) and I used to wear an M before I married. I am now in pretty good shape. I should go through my wardrobe and get rid of the stuff that looks like I am wearing a bag. That would be quite the 180 to get more fashionable.
I agree Kerry. I think the "Bag" look is out for Spring...
Lunch together, that sounds like a nice time. And you didn't seem to do any damage w/R talk. Just leave it alone for awhile and see what happens.......
I have noticed that a lot of my shirts are L (wife bought them) and I used to wear an M before I married. I am now in pretty good shape. I should go through my wardrobe and get rid of the stuff that looks like I am wearing a bag. That would be quite the 180 to get more fashionable.
Funny, I went through the same thing. Lost about 15 lbs after the bomb was dropped, so I had to buy some new clothes (but I am far from fashionable). Then I started going to the gym more regularly and now the new clothes don't fit quite right. It feels nice to be fit again. And I know it was one of the things W noticed as a sign I was coming out of my funk.
Good for you Kerry! Getting in shape! Re-doing the wardrobe. All right now.
Um, the rapper gangster priest look - is that not "in" now?
(heh heh. I don't know fashion either)
I saw W briefly last night before I took the kids to the fire station (cub scouts activity). I reminded her that this Sat was the first "Kids Turn" class of which 4 classes are required in our county to get a divorce when children are involved. She had forgotten all about the class which is typical for her to forget appointments since becoming a WAW. I mentioned that it might be that we dont even need these classes and she replied that we should still take them regardless of whether we get a D or not since we already pre-payed for them.
The classes have 2 simultaneous sessions so that spouses who cant get along are not in the same room. I am kind of hoping that there are some arguments between couples in the class as it might make W realize that her and I are actually pretty good together in comparison to others going through a D. Also, the kids have classes they take so as to understand what divorce is and how to cope with it.
Our mediator agreed with me that the classes are a waste of time for W and myself as we already have the best interest of our children worked out well between us.
I will be scoping out some of the soon to be single women in the class if my D comes to fruition. Just kidding. I am going in with an open mind and maybe I can learn something from the interactions of other couples.
I will be scoping out some of the soon to be single women in the class if my D comes to fruition. Just kidding.
Sounds like a good plan.
Ha, don't let the WAW catch you!
Glad to hear you guys are getting along well. So are me and my WAW. Not the ideal situation, but none of these are.
Keep up the positive work. And find someone that knows fashion before you go buy a lot of stuff. I am doing that myself. I only have t-shirts and jeans.
W called when I was driving home last night to tell me that S7 really liked a new Picachu stuffed doll she got him off ebay. At the end of the call she said "thank you" to which I had to say "what for" and then I quickly said "no, thank you" in a funny way. She laughed. I wonder why my W says thank you like that at the end when she talks to me.
On a sad note, I had to put my cats (Donny and Marie - yes they are brother and sister) back out in the garage and close the cat door. The friendly cat Donny, who is fixed, was spraying too much and squating a urinating on the carpet. The kids were really liking having the cats in the house to play with (and torment Marie). W knows that I had to put the cats back in the garage, so that may give her one more incentive to come back. If she does not come back, then when these cats (15 years old now) are gone, I will probably get new kittens and train them properly to live in the house without urinating everywhere.
The thank you is a nice touch. It sounds as if you guys are getting along pretty good overall. Keep doing good man. I have been thinking of your sitch.
Keep doing good for the kids and cats as well. Mine is a 16 year old. He stays outside mainly at the house. I miss him dearly as he would not take to apartment life.
So today is my W's birthday. I got her a simple card, a balloon and a $25 Starbucks gift card.
I picked up D5 and another girl like usual from school today and as I was pulling into the driveway of their afterschool teacher, D5 blurts out that OM bought mommy a really pretty new car. Somehow I think their R is quite a bit further than I suspected. The afterschool teacher heard this repeated and will probably mention it to my W later this afternoon which means my W will know that I know.
I called W's friend immediately to ask her what I should do. Should I ask W about the new car? We both agree to let W tell us. She felt so sorry for me.
Well, I figure that there is a silver lining to all bad news - if he did buy her a new car, that is some pretty good evidence for me to use in showing that she does not deserve any spousal support if the D proceeds. Also, it means my W will be pretty close to making a decision about whether she wants a D or a chance again in our M.
Tonight we are all (not OM) going to an Egyptian performance for S7's school. I need to get my mind off of this new development.
Good luck tonight Kerry. I know it's going to be tough to not bring up OM's gift.. but you can do this.. Let her sweat it out.. 'cause I would think that something like that should be tough to tell you!
One possibility I was thinking about... since my W seemed to be on the fence, maybe OM detected she might be considering coming back to our M and got her the car out of desperation to win her over. My W may look at this as pursuing too much on his part. Who knows, this may backfire on him.
My coworker thinks my W is stringing me along too much and is having her cake and eating it too.
W just called and aparently the afterschool teacher told her about D5 informing me of the new car. W says it is just a loaner (rental) from the OM for her BD and it is a new Cadillac SUV (Esplande?). That was quite the emotional thrill ride for me.
We had a nice time at S7's Egyptian night for his 1st grade class. When we left, I gave W the balloon and card. She gave me a kiss (in front of the kids). Five hours earlier, after hearing what D5 said about mommy getting a new car from OM, I would have never guessed that the night would end this way. I think we need to revise the phrase "Dont believe 100% of what they say, dont believe 50% of their actions, and dont always believe what your kids tell you".
I watched the "Why did I get married?" movie tonight. It was an excellent movie and I enjoyed it very much. It was the best drama movie I have seen in a long time. It did hit close to home because it was about 4 different marriages with troubles. I highly recommend it to anyone going through marriage problems.
Towards the end of the movie, W called me and asked me if I would like to go out for coffee tomorrow morning. I did get her a Starbucks gift card for her BD and she wants to use it. W would like to see the movie too, so I will give it to her tomorrow. Baby steps.
Met briefly with W this morning for coffee. Apparently, she had a nice call with her mother yesterday. She came in the big SUV loaner and still does not know whether it belongs to OM, but she does not really like it that much as it is too big. I gave her the movie, and as we parted, she gave me a nice kiss on the lips. I dont know where this is going, but I like it.
It should be interesting tomorrow at the "Kids Turn" parenting classes if W and I actually get close to one another in class.
Now I am a little confused. I dropped D5 off at the afterschool teachers house and the teacher mentioned that the Cadillac SUV was a gift from OM to my W. W had told her that it was for long trips as he only had a sports car convertible.
So why would W tell me it was a loaner and then this morning she said she thought it might be OM's? I am thinking that she is so on the fence right now. D5 told me when I picked her up at school that mommy was thinking about coming back, but she also said that mommy and OM still kiss. I really believe this is my W's theme song right now:
Torn Between Two LoversThe weird thing about that song is it was popular when my mother had her A with my fathers good friend. My father said that song hit a little too close to his heart.
I wish for you Kerry that what your D5 said about mommy thinking of coming back is true. I also hope for your D5's sake it is true so she isn't being strung along like you. That would be crushing to hear that as a 5 year old and get hopeful just to be dashed again.
I read in a MLC book that you can't believe any of what they say and only half of what you see. I always remember that if I hear H say things like ILYBNILWY or I am never coming home. And when he looks SO happy...haha, I remember to only believe half of it.
Try to have a good weekend.
W and I had a good talk today while getting things in bags for Goodwill (on behalf of the cub scouts). She thinks the gift of the $50K plus SUV by OM is weird because she has not committed herself to him. She also feels bad for putting me through all this, but indicates she does not know what she wants yet. She even acknowleged what I had told her long ago about new relationships and passion - she said this thing with OM may burn itself. We agreed to continue to wait and see. I think I threw out a date like July and she thought that was acceptable.
One interesting thing she mentioned was that she had thought if she divorced me that she could be with OM until he died from old age (he is almost 68), and then if I was still unattached, possibly get remarried to me. I think she got this idea from her best friend. What a plan!
We had our first "Kids Turn" parenting class today. When I filled out the forms it asked for primary language and I put down Thai for my W but mentioned that she spoke english just fine. So in typical government fashion, they brought in a Thai interpreter which W thought was ridiculous. When she said hello to the interpreter in Thai (Sawadee Ka), he did not know what she was saying. Turns out the interpreter was from Laos. He still tried to do his job (showing W how to sit in a chair) even though my W and him were not speaking the same native language.
They ended up splitting all spouses apart into 2 different classes and the kids had there own 5-9 year old class. This first class was a waste of time because it was all talking about required attendence and introducing each other. They did give us some homework which was to think of things we can do on our own as individuals to keep our minds off the divorce / seperation. Three more classes on Saturdays this month and we get our certificate.
W took S7 for tonight and I have D5 because I am taking her skiing early tomorrow. Next weekend, we will probably reverse that so I can take S7 skiing. Even though we have a parenting plan, W and I both are flexible and are not following it strictly.
One thing W and I both agreed on in our talk today was that divorce / seperation is bad because each of us lose half the time we normally get to be with the kids.
So my plan remains the same. Just keep being friends with W, have fun with my kids when I have them, work on myself and do things I enjoy on my free time and wait patiently for W to come to a decision on her own time.
One of the biggest things I have to work on is the hurt I have when the kids blurt out things they do with the OM. It is so hard to hear that another man is doing things with my kids that I used to do. I wonder how W would feel if this situation were reversed.
I am sorry you have to go through these classes, they sound like a waste of time for you all anyway.
I am very sympathetic to how you feel about the OM being with your kids. My H still insists there isn't anyone else, which could be true, but if there was and it was known and my kids were around her...well let's just say for me that all DB'ing would probably go out the window. Mainly because it is too damn soon and the kids should not be subjected to that nonsense anyway, I feel the OM/OW stuff is too confusing for the kids especially the younger they are.
Classes? Ugh! I feel for you on that. And both you and mymonkeybug are right... an OP so soon... I don't think so. I have broached that with my WAW and she blew up! Thought I was calling her a slut and told me that I made her feel cheap. Whatever.
Anyway, keep up the work K. Hopefully things will get better and easier for you. How many of these classes do you guys HAVE to take?
kturernc and mymonkeybug, I think the next 3 classes should start getting better. We break into groups. I think I will try to determine those who are WAS and those who are LBS.
I wonder what the "Kids Turn" instructors (counselors) have to say about kids living in the house with OM half of the time? I may bring that up as W is in a different classroom.
I am keeping a close eye on the kids and they seem to be doing ok with living 50/50 in two different places.
I always have to see a silver lining to bad situations. Now that my W seems to be accepting a very expensive SUV and is still living in a luxurious lake front home, if she does decide for a D now, she wont be getting any spousal support.
BTW...During the class, I did notice several attractive ladies.
Hi Kerry,
I haven't posted on your thread for a long while(In fact you were the first person I offered advice to) cos you seemed to get you act together pretty quickly and have remained solid and consistant in you approach to your W and DB in general. Anyway this little sequence below grabbed my attention especially when W said to the SUV was a loaner, cos I immediately shouted at my computer screen "No Way !!" and I waited with anticipation for your next post.
D5 blurts out that OM bought mommy a really pretty new car.
W says it is just a loaner (rental) from the OM for her BD and it is a new Cadillac SUV (Esplande?).
She came in the big SUV loaner and still does not know whether it belongs to OM
I dropped D5 off at the afterschool teachers house and the teacher mentioned that the Cadillac SUV was a gift from OM to my W
She thinks the gift of the $50K plus SUV by OM is weird because she has not committed herself to him.
One interesting thing she mentioned was that she had thought if she divorced me that she could be with OM until he died from old age (he is almost 68), and then if I was still unattached, possibly get remarried to me. I think she got this idea from her best friend. What a plan!
I know you are very keen for reconsiliation with your W at some stage but all I'd say is make sure you go into it with your eyes wide open, cos this little sequence would have alarm bells ringing in my head.
Lan
Hi Kerry,
I thought it was about time that I found your thread since our posts seem to end up side-by-side on some other theads.....and we seem to see things alike. You have been very supportive of what I have had to say and I wanted you to know that I appreciated it.
I read your thread tonight. I can understand how a H could reach the place that his heart closes to the love of his life b/c of her complete turn around in her lifestyle, personality, and everything. She does become a completely different person.
I am pulling for you. I hope that you get what you want. I also want your wife to find peace, b/c I know that she is so miserable now. She is confussed and lost and she knows she brought it all upon herself. She has to live with that fact forever.
"Time and Patient" seems to be the motto for all the LBS......but you have to either ride it out or call it quits. I don't see you calling it quits.
I am going to start a new thread under the Piecing forum, so anytime you want to visit, you can find me there. In the meantime, we'll be meeting up on other threads.
Good luck to you.....and please let that knee heal up before you try something else. You men! (lol)
Sandi
Thanks for your perception Lanzo. My W does know and acknowlege that she would not come back for convenience, but because of love. She admits that she does miss me.
I talked on the drive home from skiing today with W's good friend, who also was a betrayed spouse once. She has the same good feeling about our situation and thinks July is a good cutoff date. She said she talked with W this morning and said that W talked a lot about me.
When I got back from skiing today with D5, I was showering and W came home with S7. She walked into the bathroom right when I was toweling of in the buff. I did not try to hide anything and she acted just like normal while she sat down on the toilet just like H and W sharing the bathroom later. Then after putting on some short and laying on my back the bed to rest, W came in and wanted to talk about my ski trip today with D5. I did notice her eyeing me a bit while we talked. Who knows, maybe she is seeing the difference between a fit 47 year old and a flabby 67 year old.
Thanx Sandi, I will check in on the piecing as that is where I utlimately would like to be.
I see my W as a very confused woman right now and I want to give her every chance right now to make the right decision.
Wow, funny that W walks right in the bathroom while you ar ein the buff like nothign has happened. Glad you didn't spaz and act uncomfortable. She saw you as normal and that I am sure was a big comfort to her. Hell my H when over won't even use our master bath anymore but the kids hall bath which he NEVER did before leaving.
I wish you the best of luck and do forsee a turn around in your future as you keep up the good work.
KerryK, I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but wonder why the teachers are involved with the SUV, who owns it, etc?
Also, I chuckled when you mentioned her sitting on the toilet like nothing. My H was at the house yesterday, I walked by the kids' bathroom and he was on the toilet. He said something to me, then I shut the door and started walking away. He called me back to continue talking! Had to tell him to finish and then find me to talk to me.
KerryK, I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but wonder why the teachers are involved with the SUV, who owns it, etc?
The after school teacher confided in me that W had told her that the SUV was indeed a gift from OM. My W has since told me so, but she does not know if it is in her name.
I had a look at this monster SUV in my driveway last night. It appears to be a real gas guzzler, but very nice on the inside. It even has cameras in the back for when you are backing up.
I'm thinking that involving the teacher in details isn't that good of an idea. They should be concentrating on your children and putting them in the middle will place them in the position of taking sides between the two of you.
Yes, I agree that the teacher should remain neutral and not feel nervous like she did when she told me about what my W had told her.
Kerry,
This is really weird....your whole situation. Take or leave these observations/opinions/advice, but to me, knowing only what you post, it seems you are a bit of a pushover. What do you say when your wife talks about getting back together when OM dies? That's really icky. Personally, I'd probably say, "not likely". Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like she's basically with him for his money. She probably is hoping she'll get an inheritance from him. That doesn't sound that desirable/attractive.
Does she just come right in to the house? Do you get to swing by and walk in her house/OM house whenever you want? Your separated...you have your place and she has hers...she doesn't have two places. Personally, I would have covered up. While OM is in the picture, what you have is yours. Let her use her imagination.
Maybe this seems harsh, but it sounds like you are her for sure backup plan. Are you? Do you have some say on whether you want her? I'm not saying don't be friends for the kids' sake, but as long as she's living at OM's house, it just seems a little bit wimpy to not set more boundaries and at least make some statements that let her know that a relationship with you in the future isn't a given. If you've done this already...maybe you could stand to reinforce this a bit.
JM -
I do feel like I am being used.
My W has told me that she is not after him for the money, but that she is worried that others might view it as such.
I think now is a good time to ask her for the house key along with splitting our checking account and vehicles. I dont care if she gets mad and it causes her feeling to move more towards the OM. The more she moves towards living permanently with OM just means that I will have less possibility of paying spousal support if this ends in a D. I want the final D papers to show no spousal support, because even if you have a little spousal support, it can be changed in the future if W were to fall on hard times. If there is no spousal support, she cant add it on after the D is final.
We have 3 more Saturdays of parenting classes before we can get a D finalized. During that time, I will try to find a realtor to get a fair market value on the house so I have a better figure for splitting the increase in value on the house.
Even though most my friends and family would like our M to be saved, it is quotes like this from my brother's email last night that really puts some of my inner feelings in perspective:
There are truly good women out there that treat their men with respect. I think you deserve someone better than W will ever be.
The hard part is that I am not really ready to throw in the towel as I so very much miss the good times we had as a family. I still feel like I owe it to my children to not give up just yet. But I have my doubts of whether we can rebuild our M. Her contracting genital herpes from a one night bar stand and staying in an A are making it hard for me to see our M making it.
Fortunately, I found out a couple of days ago from a blood test that I am STD free!
The hard part is that I am not really ready to throw in the towel as I so very much miss the good times we had as a family. I still feel like I owe it to my children to not give up just yet.
I hear you. And I wasn't saying to throw in the towel. It was probably more throw your gauntlet in the ring. If she wants you, she should be winning you, not waiting for OM to die and see if you're still available. Kerry, I've read enough of your advice to others and enough of your own thread to know that YOU AREN'T ANYONE'S FALLBACK PLAN. She doesn't deserve you at the moment (and may never unless she gets her head on straight)...on that I agree with your brother.
I think now is a good time to ask her for the house key along with splitting our checking account and vehicles. I dont care if she gets mad and it causes her feeling to move more towards the OM
I whole-heartedly agree with this. Just handle it matter of fact if she gets mad (ie "We are separated and getting divorced. It doesn't make any sense for you to have the key or to share accounts".) It might be a dose of reality that she needs.
I agree with the getting the house key and seperating accounts at this point.
I personally feel her accepting such a lavish and high $$$$ gift by taking that SUV is so unwise on her part. That I don't feel will look very good to a judge and is something in your favor I would think.
I fully understand your desire to continue to try and doing so for your family is a very good reason. You and only you will know when YOUR time is up with trying. Do not let anyone else, not even your brother who has your best interests he feels in mind, disuade you from your stand for marriage reconcilliation if that is what you want.
I had some talks with W's two good friends and asked them how to go about telling W in a nice way that I wanted keys and split checking. They agreed we should be living with those tighter boundaries and warned me to not use the words "I feel like I am being used".
I typed a letter explaining in nice words that I needed some more separation in our separation. In it, I asked for her copies of the house key and that we will split the checking.
We had a short talk when I handed her the letter. She did not take it all that well and I detected several times the "I am the victim" attitude coming out in her. She wanted to know why I changed as she thought we agreed to go as we have been until our cutoff date of July. I told her that we should still have 4 more months of separation but that I needed to change some of the boundaries so as to make the separation more like the living conditions in a real divorce.
I did get the keys from her and we talked briefly about what to do on Mondays (my day) in which W takes D5 to violin lessons. I suggested that I start taking D5 (with D7 along) for the violin lessons. I think W tries to overcomplicate things. For me, it is simple and I would love to take my daughter to those lessons. W can still take her on Tuesdays for the group violin lessons.
We will go in together next week to get the checking split. W is working longer hours to fill in for the head teacher this week.
I offered to retrieve her handguns from the 3rd party and get them back to her as she likes to go to the range, but I told her that she has to take the handgun safe also so as to bolt somewhere in OM's place. She is well aware it is not safe to have handguns out where the kids could find them. Her response to my offer was "just keep them", it is not my house (OM's) and I cant just go drilling holes anywhere. She is so irrational as she and OM went shooting with a police officer this last Friday and used the officers guns. I know that they would love to go shooting more in the future.
I also tried talking to her about the kids and some things we need to focus on in their behavior (especially D5). I told her I found a
motivation/discipline system that sounds very promising. Probably not the best time to talk about the kids, but she agreed that some things in our kids behavior need improvement.
As she was leaving the house, I noticed the SUV in the driveway and I had the mini-van from skiing yesterday, so I asked her if now was not a good time for me to start permanently driving the mini-van and she can keep the car (which she has at OM's house) for easier more economical driving. She barked "you just keep all the vehicles".
W left the house in a bit of a foul mood fury - I did not get a hug which is understandable. We talked on the phone and she still seemed irrational. She was saying things like "just throw my clothes and things away", "take it all since it is all your money", "your the strong one", "you just want to look good to everyone", blah blah blah. I politely told her that anytime she wants to talk to call me up.
It is times like this with her that really make me not desire her anymore as my W.
She will hopefully settle down in a day or two.
Kerry,
When the spouse gets so defensive, in my experience, they are feeling judged. But rightfully so. IT is their feelings of guilt b/c they know they are doing the wrong thing that often make them feel so angry.
I have been following your story for a long time and I feel for you. I want you to get your wife back. But the truth is she is living with someone else, and driving around in a $50K car he bought for her. Kissing him in front of YOUR kids. All of those things are unacceptable. I know it is hard to draw a line in the sand. I have done so and backpedaled before b/c I really don't want to lose my H. But it is perfectly normal for you to set standards and guidelines while you are separated.
If she doesn't like the "rules" you have instated, she can commit to working on the M, cut the OM loose, and work on her situation with you. But if she wants to be with OM right now, then there are consequences to her decision. She is an adult, even if she plays the victim (my H's ex-OW is good at pulling the victim card with him). She could tell OM she doesn't want the vehicle and refuse to drive it. But she has accepted it.
Keep doing what you are doing now and be firm. You will be able to know that if she comes back, she is doing it b/c she wants to be with you. If she wants a sugar daddy, she has one who can give her a fancy house and fancy car. If she wants you, hopefully you can be confident that she wants you just for you....Hope that made sense. Good luck and be strong, I know it is hard for me to do but hopefully you can make it happen!!
Yeah, she's barkign anger at you becaue you are a no good SOB. Not really but you know that is her mindset right now. She again refuses to accept that this is all part of the consequences of HER actions. She wanted to have this new life and not the one she had with you and the kids as a family of 4. She wants her cake and eat it too and most of the time in life that just isn't possible, something has got to give.
You have every right to set these boundaries and make this seperation seem more like a real seperation if that is what you want to do. Lord knows she went and did what she wanted to do.
Don't throw her stuff away just sore it all somewhere, don't keep all the vehicles-she will want hers eventually. But now si the time to do that glorious lovingly distancing thing we hear so much about on here. Give her time and space to wrap her mind around her consequences and I bet she will calm down and be back in touch in a day or 2, maybe 3 or 4. Her flaunting her relationship with OM by kissing in front of kids is totally unaceptable in my opinion. You also have every right to voice that to her.
Keep your chin up, remember only you will know if you still want to stand for your marriage or if you are ready to really throw in the towel.
It's okay Kerry. Let her have her own pity party and feel like the victim. It probably won't last and I think you'll end up ahead in the long run. She just needs a little time to process. The things you asked weren't unreasonable and they weren't vindictive...just reality. Maybe she'll eventually face that reality. She really is living in la la land. Basically I think she wanted it all...OM's house and car and pretty much free access to you whenever she needed what you have to offer. Give it a little time and see what happens...all the while maintaining your friendly attitude.
Good luck.
Me
BobbiJo, MMB, JM - thanks for the support. I am feeling so at ease about getting this D over with.
Here is a little snippet of an email from my brother this morning. It is hard for me to argue against what he says...
My point is...don't you think your happiness counts for something..? I do. I mean come on already. The middle aged man has suffered long enough.
It seems to me that Nui is a gold digger. No other way to put it. Why you would want that woman back is beyond me.
Marina and I tried a little pro vs con. I came up with 1 pro. She is the mother of your children. I got nothing after that. The cons are so numerous to count..just a few.. she got itchy scratchy...she has anger issues..she is a pack rat..no cooky, no cleany..she is a habitual liar ...a bit of a trust issue with her...I could go on, but you get the point.
Step back a bit and look at this rationally. Having her come back is not in Kerry's best interest. You deserve to be a happy middle aged man!! If your happy...your kids will be happy.
When you step back do you feel this way? It's easy for other people to say these things because they are living outside the situation. The choice to stand vs. walk away is yours.
I wish you the best in which ever you choose.
I am done wanting my W back as the person she has become now. If she makes a miraculous turnaround, I may reconsider, but I highly doubt our marriage can be saved.
Kerry,
I am done wanting my W back as the person she has become now. If she makes a miraculous turnaround, I may reconsider, but I highly doubt our marriage can be saved
I can unfortunately relate to your comment. I won't take back the woman my W has become either. However, if she is willing to face her fears and faults and work on them, I'd love to have her again.
However, I too am not sure this marriage will survive. That is very, very sad for me and probably is for you too.
RTL
Just_Me,
Where is your thread? I'm very interested to read your story as I'm almost certain my divorce will go through as my W doesn't want to consider anything else right now (or maybe ever).
RTL
PS - Sorry for jacking the thread, Kerry.
Just thinking of you today. Hope you can keep your resolve if that is what you are wanting. Your brother wants what is best for you and he knows W is making you unhappy right now. But it will be up to you to decide whether or not you want her in your life in the long run. Actually, she will always be in your life b/c of the kiddies. So one way or another, you will learn to deal with her. Hopefully (if you want) she can get a grip on herself and you can get things back on track with time.....
Refuse to lose,
I have no thread. Right click my name, go to show posts, and just go back a long way....it would essentially be 2005 posts would be my threads.
Kerry,
I know this site is supposed to be "divorce busting" and we are supposed to believe that the grass isn't greener, but sometimes it is in fact greener. I've been married to two women and believe me, I don't regret I'm not married to the 1st one. She has a ton of undesirable traits. I just couldn't be able to manage it. My 2nd wife is a good woman with a lot going for her. When we split up it was different. I didn't have kids with her. But I wanted her back not just because I loved her or wanted what I couldn't have, but because she's got loads of positives going for her. Everyone that walks away and everyone that is the LBS goes through things where they don't seem to be the same person, but still underneath it all have the same pros and cons to wanting to get back together. Is that your wife? How were things in the marriage before she split? Would she be the same if she came back? It's only in retrospect that I'm happy I didn't reconcile with my first wife (although I still hate having to only see my kids part time...that hurts), but I realize what I was chasing after was a dream of a good marriage, not reality.
Just_Me,
Where is your thread?
Here is his first:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=59&Number=448300Somewhere in all his threads, you can read that he got remarried in Las Vegas on a weekend.
I know this site is supposed to be "divorce busting" and we are supposed to believe that the grass isn't greener, but sometimes it is in fact greener.
My brother and coworker also have both remarried to much better women and they say that the grass is indeed greener.
I have checked out Match.com and Yahoo personals and can see quite a few ladies my age that have their act together. I know my life will be good after a D and I will continue to try and better myself and understand women more.
That was nice of you Kerry to provide that link, but that person was too focused on his wife. Uggghhh, the early days on here. I really don't like to see that. Notice how I perseverated on every interaction...yuck. I should have just went with what we had.
That is actually my second name on here. I started over from scratch after my wife read the threads under my first name and asked for a divorce. So, that isn't the very start. I wasn't divorced yet either, so it's a little confusing. I did write I was divorced so my wife wouldn't catch on if she only read the initial posting. So ask me if I think your spouse reading DB or your posts is a good idea...I'd personally say no.
If you want the mess I was before this thread, then look up the name phoenixdeux. You'll get a hit within the last year and can follow that to the beginning.
But my word of warning is there isn't any clues in there. I'm convinced that there are very few rules that can be universally applied and the rest is based on your own situation. I did the GAL stuff and LRT occasionally to excess and it had negative results. Others get positives. My thoughts on some of the universal truths:
1) DO WHAT WORKS. If something seems to be drawing your spouse closer, don't suddenly switch gears because of something on here. Keep doing what was working.
2) Focus on improving on yourself.
3) Don't pressure your spouse.
4) Have patience. This could take a long time.
5) You can't control what your spouse does. Ultimately, your spouse has to decide if they want to try again. You can help it along by being someone he/she would like to be with (and that's where learning to listen, validate, being friendly, being confident, etc) come in. He/She still may not want you, even with your improvements, because it's not your decision to make. If you can be happy with who you are, then I guess it's your spouses loss if he/she doesn't want you.
6) Despite how this feels, it isn't the end of the world. Life will be different and painful for awhile, but it doesn't end. Make the most of the time you do have apart. You might not get the chance again to fully take advantage of opportunities to enjoy yourself, learn new things, meet new people, travel, etc.
7) You have to be happy with yourself. I like some song that says, "She said like it or not it's the way it's gotta be
You gotta love yourself if you can ever love me".
8) Expectations will kill you.
Expectations are what you think should happen...but it doesn't work that way. Just accept that the interaction was positive without that expectation that it will lead somewhere. You'll just get disappointed.
9) Don't read my threads for wisdom. I think I have a good grasp on the principles, but I'm not sure I put them in practice. Some of the wisest stuff though was said to me by others. So, read Sage's advice. Sometimes sitting still is better than doing something.
Just_Me:
This list is fantastic! This is what I was hoping to glean from your postings but you summarized it all right here. Thank you very much.
Also, I agree w/ your words to Kerry. We have to look at our lives before the separations and decide if that is where we really want to be again. It is painful and so very different to be in our place now, but it has to get better. I can't see how any of us can feel much worse.
Great words and nuggets of wisdom. Thank you.
RTL
I agree Just Me. That is a stellar list.
Greate list JM.
So ask me if I think your spouse reading DB or your posts is a good idea...I'd personally say no.
Quite a while back I showed my W the link I put in my sig to the pictures of us and told her that she would not want to read my threads as it speaks the truth. She was a little upset that her picture was there, so I took it out.
Even though I know my M is over, I will still treasure the many good times I had as a family. Here is one of them:
Disney 2005
Kerry,
Beautiful family. It makes me sad to see b/c of your sitch, but you are going to be ok.
How did you get the pic to post? Did you have to run it through a web site?
Stay strong.
RTL
Kerry,
That's a great picture. You a great dad. I've been using you as a role model in taking care of my kids through all this
RTL - That pic was from some photo album pages I used to keep up to date on my company's web server so W's brother and mother in Thailand could see us.
Cute pic. Yes, those memories will never go away. Enjoy them, be happy and be sad. I know we all are when we think back to the GOOD times. Hell H and I and the kdis just went to Disney in late Sept. and had a super good time. H seemed so happy there but of course now he has rewritten that as just faking it for the kids sake...what a load of BS. Hell we bathed each other in the 2 person tub and had an amazing first night of passion upon arrival but of course, "I was just acting like a good husband should!" Oh how easily they convince themselves life stunk.
We will all make it through these tough days, weeks, months, and maybe even years but with each others continued support and posts we will all manage and come out better people in the end regardless of whether the ending is of fairy tale proportions or not.
Monkeybug,
I understand this frustration. I'm in the same boat. My W claims I stopped being her friend, partner, and lover after D was born, but she forgets how I was by her side while she was in chronic pain b/c of her endo night after night.
My fear is a lot like Kerry's -- Our spouses will never wake up and take any sort of responsibility. They can't or won't ever be willing to face their role and themselves. That is what is so sad.
However, if we continue to do everything we have to do to become stronger people and better parents, in the end, our children will know it wasn't us who broke up our little families.
I guess that is all we can cling to right now. Doing what is right to show and set the proper examples for our children, regardless of how this all shakes out for us in the end.
RTL
Nice guys and gals finish last. I am done being the whimpy guy that trys to please.
W dropped off D5 outside my house last night. She did not want to come in. She called me from the driveway and asked if I could print out some pictures from her camera. I told her that she should come in and do it herself as I was busy getting the kids dinner and had to go to cub scouts that night. She just said nevermind.
This morning, she wanted me to get some things from the house since she cant stop by on her own anymore. I said no problem. I asked her if she was angry and she said she was not. I told her that I feel our divorce is inevitable as I dont see us working out together. Silence on the phone. I said "are you there"? She just said "whatever" and "bye" and then hung up.
I dont know what is going on in her mind, if anything at all. Nor do I care. She can wallow in her self pity for all I care.
Kerry,
Are you okay with all this? You've been amazingly strong through this, but I could understand if you feel as though you may be moving backwards. As long as you are keeping up being friendly, etc, then her current reactions are her own problem. Sounds like a child basically saying, "I'll show you". She'll work through it one way or the other. You've set a few boundaries and she's overreacted to them (although the "inevitable divorce" part may have been a little over the top unless you really believe that). I personally don't know what to believe. Part of me thinks she'll work through the ramifications of all this (after all this time of not having to face reality) and will eventually move your way. I just don't get the feeling that she's done with you. Maybe it's just a gut feeling, but I do get that sense. I'd play it out and see where it goes. The part-time golddigger, "maybe come back someday if you're available", don't want divorced but don't want you, thing was really pretty much an untenable position for you anyway. Plus, you didn't do anything that most separated and divorcing couples don't do....you asked to separate your accounts and get your house key back. Whoopidy doo.
Kerry,
I can read the frustration in your last post. I'm with JM here that if you really want the D, then go ahead and move forward. That is ok. However, if you still would like for this to have a chance to work, then saying the D is an inevitable situation only amounts to pressure on your W.
There is a thread by Meredith where she discusses how she divorced her husband and they got back together (I think JM did this scenerio as well). In any event, Meredith said she knew divorce was one of the options, but she waited until she was 100% comfortable and calm about it to do it.
Your D was filed by you, so you do hold the cards. I would just caution you to make sure you are ok w/ that step before finishing it out.
Remember I understand your feelings very, very well. I'm not sure my marriage will make it either. I may be ready to chuck in the towel myself very soon. I'm not sure when that will be, but I can definitely sympathize with your feelings, despair and frustration.
Hang in there and whatever you decide, we're behind you.
RTL
Thanks Kerry. I'd asked the same question earlier. I can see how difficult it must be for you to stand my your W given all she's been doing.
JM and RTL - Thanks for chiming in, but I really see very little hope that even if my W comes to her senses that my M will succeed. I have, and am, giving it great consideration, but I have no love for that woman right now. My only reason for holding any hope of preserving my M is for the kids sake. Who knows what will happen, but I feel like I am ready to move on after we finish our parenting classes this month. Maybe I will still wait until July. It will give us more time to determine any fine detail to our parenting plan. However, if she wants to finalize a D before that time, I would be more than willing to do that.
I went out today and opened up my own checking/savings. I paid off D5's kindergarten and got my payroll to go to the new account. I need to change some of the auto bill pays to now be with the new account. Next week, after pending checks clear, I plan to move half our joint checking into this new account and if W does not want to go with me to do this, I will just write her a check and document how the money was divided.
I am not doing this out of spite. I dont want to be financing her anymore since we dont seem to be married anymore. She will remain on my health care until we are officially divorced.
I do want to remain friends with W as it is in the best interest of our children. She is even agreeing to look at some of the discipline/motivation system I just purchased.
Kerry,
I totally understand. We're all here to support you, so please lean on us and let us help in any way we can from our spread out corners of the world.
The banking thing is difficult, but very, very necessary, I'm afraid. You have to protect yourself financially.
Keep fighting for your kids. You are doing the right thing for them.
RTL
Your thread has grown! Please start a new thread!