If you're interested in reading my threads, they are:
Forgive and Forget? Insecurity? What should I do? I've been feeling kinda blue the past few days. We had our first joint session with our sex therapist yesterday and at first it felt a bit awkward. We both had a difficult time answering her when she asked how we've been. H answered, "Not bad" so when she looked at me, I offered that I haven't turned H down for sex. I've made a conscious effort to go to bed each night, fully prepared to ML and initiate much more often. I've also been more affectionate outside of the bedroom to reassure him of my love. I just have been feeling so hopeless. I'm afraid resentment is building and I need to get out this mindset.
Just before we had our second (and last) baby, we went over our finances and agreed that I could stay home with the kids until they started school. After listening to Dr Laura stress the importance of staying home for your kids, I was determined to "do the right thing" and made every attempt to keep expenses low. I even tried to get my home based business (graphic and web design) going again and managed to make a bit of money, but it's difficult to work while you're refereeing toddlers! I went through a phase (and it was at the height of our SSM) where I was going to bed at 2am. We had discussed that maybe I should find a part time job just as a break from the monotony of being at home. That has now become the focus of our discussions except now, I am being encouraged (or urged) to find work to help with the finances.
We've had problems communicating difficult issues to one another. I tend to bring up my issues, and H usually hears me out, agrees or discusses them with me but they don't always get resolved. For example, last summer we agreed to help out H's cousin. He was going to live with us for a month or two until he found a place for him and his son to live. One month had passed and I noticed the cousin, let's call him Steve, seemed rather comfortable with the situation of me being at home, watching his kid and cooking. A few times, especially on Fridays, Steve would show up after 8pm. I explained to H that it was not acceptable for Steve to assume this was ok and that he was expected to come home after work and make arrangements if he wanted to go out. I also told H that I could no longer watch Steve's S7 before and after school because it was too much on top of our D3 and S1.5. In my mind I wanted Steve to have to find a daycare so that he would have to be responsible for his son. Somehow, H managed to address the coming home right after work, but failed to mention that he needed to find care for his son! I was left to "confront" Steve and tell him it wasn't working about 2 weeks later. Steve finally left our home last month, owing us hundreds of dollars.
When H brings something to my attention, he does so in such a serious manner that I take a defensive stance. He seems to hold things inside until he has to let them out and by that time he's at end of his rope. Picking up on this, I acknowledge the issue and try to explain my perspective if it differs from his and at this time, if we're going around in circles, he ends the conversation. I try really hard to validate him and offer resolutions and need to work on following through.
I've been struggling with this for weeks, months really. I plan to start applying to jobs and landing one, but I know that this will only breed resentment for me. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions to help me not feel so disappointed that my marriage isn't living up to what I wanted? I have always felt very strongly that the man should be able to provide for his family, so this is hard for me to swallow. The way I feel is if I'm working (especially full time), then I might as well be a single mother. I know I sound ridiculous, but I can't seem to dig myself out of this self pity.
Hi Pam,
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Does anyone have any advice or suggestions to help me not feel so disappointed that my marriage isn't living up to what I wanted?
That seems to me to be the essence of the problem. Your expectations are not being met. I think what I would suggest is that you try not to continue having expectations, especially unrealistic ones, for your marriage...as it stands, you appear to hold the belief (through what you've heard from Dr. Laura and perhaps what you observed growing up) that your husband OUGHT to be able to provide the family's entire financial support. Even if he could, though, is it fair to hold him to a standard that HE does not totally support? Perhaps a re-assessment of your priorities (together with him) might be in order, as well as a hard look at what your expectations are for a marriage to see if maybe it's time to adjust your filters a little and start looking for ways to improve relations and not hold him responsible for your expectations.
I think you know my sitch...my W is having an affair, in fact is on the way to Las Vegas right now with the OP for three days. That is not at all the standard I would expect in a marriage, but clearly she is not willing to practice fidelity right now. The reasons for that are many, but in our case I would say that her expectations of me were profoundly unrealistic, as were mine of her. Both of us expected the other to alter their fundamental personalities to better fit the other's, and when those expectations weren't met it caused us both to behave in ways that hurt and belittled the other. For years I had a way of talking to her and behaving judgmentally when she would do or say things that I thought were embarrassing or potentially confusing or inappropriate in front of our families or children; so over time she felt like she had to repress her true personality to "keep the peace". Now, she has snapped out of that pattern and the pendulum has swung her all the way into a torrid affair. And in my case, she expected ME to be as relaxed as she always was, to get down on the floor and play with our daughters (like her dad did), which I have NEVER done and never even desired to...it just isn't my way, and it was never done with me when I was growing up. Our family was simply not as touch-oriented (other than hugs and spoken words of love) and physical affection was a private matter so I never lavished it on my kids as much as she EXPECTED me to. So eventually I came to feel as though she felt I was an inadequate father while simultaneously overprotecting and over-disciplining our kids when they misbehaved. Ah, geez, it was a mess.
So what I'm saying is...EXPECTATIONS get you into trouble. Better to assess your needs in the relationship and teach each other how to get them met so that you never feel that you need to go outside the marriage to find it. And, as Michele said in DR, you'll never reach those wonderful 4th and 5th stages of marriage unless you resolve the conflicts in Stage 3 (Everything would be alright if YOU changed) by setting expectations only for yourself and accepting your partner the way they are. In my case I still have hope that my wife is not truly as shallow as she is acting (hanging out with twenty-something single girlfriends, having the affair, refusing to do the hard work of reconciliation) and that her true, beautiful self will once again be the person I am happily married to. But there is always the chance that this IS the person she always wanted to be. If that is the case in the long run I will have to move on to a relationship in the future with a more mature individual, but at least I will know how to approach a relationship without placing unrealistic expectations on my partner.
Good luck Pam...I hope that you can find some quality in your counseling and I hope that you and your H can find the center soon.
Love to you! 
Thank you Dan, I appreciate you stopping by with your words of wisdom
It's not so much that I think H ought to be able to provide, because he does! I'm going to work on an updated budget, (part of my therapy homework) and see what spending can be decreased. I've been trying to encourage him to quit smoking for years now to no avail. Not having any expectations is a hard thing to do. It makes perfect sense, but how in the world am I supposed to do that without feeling resentful?
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...so over time she felt like she had to repress her true personality to "keep the peace". Now, she has snapped out of that pattern and the pendulum has swung her all the way into a torrid affair.
Interesting. I said something very similar to my sex therapist in one of my last sessions. I told her I felt as if my spirit was being broken and I'm not being true to myself. BTW, this was in regards to our differences in opinion on various issues, NOT sex.
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Good luck Pam...I hope that you can find some quality in your counseling and I hope that you and your H can find the center soon. Love to you!
Thank you, I hope so too. Our counseling (hmmm $1,000 since Dec 
) seems to be focused on better communication at the moment. *sigh* I wish I could just snap my fingers. Thanks for the love too!
Acquarian:
Is the part-time job a solution to bring in more income, because you need it at this time, or is it to get you out of the house? I wasn't clear on that issue.
I think what you are going through is completely normal. It seems to you that YOU are the one making all the effort to improve your relationship, YOU are the one making the sacrifices, YOU are the one who is willing to turn your LD state into something else so you can have a good marriage, YOU are the one at home ALL DAY with the kids, and though you love them dearly and wouldn't trade them for the world, you feel as though you have no personal identity, except if and when you can fit it in, and now, NOW you are expected yet again to rise to the occassion for the sake of family needs and work outside the home -- while to you, it doesn't seem that much has changed for your H except he is getting all ML you can give him, and still, it doesn't seem to be enough.
Have I come close?
First, I can tell you that unless you land a part-time job that pays like a full-time one, you will actually be working at a loss. Meaning, it will cost you MORE to work outside the home part-time than if you stayed at home, ie., paying for day care while away; gas money; travel time; energy levels; the list can go on and on. If I were you, I'd sit down with your H and do the math on what salary level you are going to have to shoot for in order to actually bring in more money to your household in a part-time job. Honestly, you would make more money watching other people's kids in your home. Do you really want to do that?
Second, working a part-time job outside the home I think is going to lead to more frustration for you. Part-time jobs are NEVER part-time; they expect a full-time production in half the time.
With both your kids under the age of five, I think you need to rethink what you realistically expect of yourself in terms of job satisfaction and ability to pull in money. Sure, you could go out and get a full-time job, but then someone else is watching your kids, and I'm sure there is a part of you saying, "if I do that, then why did I have kids?"
An option for you to consider is for you to get a part-time job in the evenings or on the weekends when your H will be around to watch the kids. Working in the evening is going to make you more tired during the day, and will give you less time to ML; working on the weekends is a viable option, but probably not in your choosen field.
I think you really need to talk through this with your H. You going back to work right now is going to take some sacrifices on everyone's part, and I think you all need to really decide if the extra income is worth that. This is not something you should have to solve by yourself. I think your H is not really thinking this through.
And, the fact of the matter is, you can say NO, I'm not getting a job right now. You have that power. You can draw that boundary.
Your resentment, I believe, is coming from a part of you that is feeling unappreciated and not respected for your efforts. If you are going to attack anything with your H, I'd say start there. Until your kids get in school, it is a very simple fact that you are NOT going to have a lot of time for yourself or your own needs. It's okay; it doesn't last forever. Do your pet projects at home in the evening, and continue freelancing for the creative shot you need. Ease up on yourself, girl. It is INSANE to try to be superwoman. Been there, done that. But you must have the courage to stick up for yourself and draw the line with your H. He cannot take advantage of you unless you allow it.
Hope this helps in some small way.
Corri
I was tempted to make a post calling for you! Thank you so much for responding. I was in tears reading your words.
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Is the part-time job a solution to bring in more income, because you need it at this time, or is it to get you out of the house? I wasn't clear on that issue.
It started out as me getting out of the house but now it's both... with an emphasis on more income.
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Have I come close?
LOL don't you always? 
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First, I can tell you that unless you land a part-time job that pays like a full-time one, you will actually be working at a loss. Meaning, it will cost you MORE to work outside the home part-time than if you stayed at home. Honestly, you would make more money watching other people's kids in your home. Do you really want to do that?
Exactly! That is why I know I need to work full time and it's such a blow to my ideals. Running my own daycare is definitely not my style! It was too much simply adding our cousin's child into the mix! What makes this even more frustrating is the fact that I want to rethink my career path and possibly take a course. The thought of just picking a job for the sake of contributing financially when I'm not sure what I want to be doing is kind of overwhelming!
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With both your kids under the age of five, I think you need to rethink what you realistically expect of yourself in terms of job satisfaction and ability to pull in money. Sure, you could go out and get a full-time job, but then someone else is watching your kids, and I'm sure there is a part of you saying, "if I do that, then why did I have kids?"
There's no need for any rethinking 
- you hit the nail on the head on how I feel. I don't understand why it's so difficult to look at the big picture and see this as such a shortlived circumstance but so beneficial to our kids.
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I think your H is not really thinking this through. And, the fact of the matter is, you can say NO, I'm not getting a job right now. You have that power. You can draw that boundary.
I've been doing this and it just keeps coming up and biting me in the butt. It's getting to the point now where I feel like getting a job will make it all *go away*. But what all will go away exactly???
Girlfriend, you need to slow yourself down. I understand EXACTLY where you are. I've been there, I've felt exactly the same way. Know that it is okay to feel exactly as you are feeling, and know that you do not need to solve this overnight. I'm sure you are feeling something similar to experiencing a creative block; you know you need an answer and nothing is coming in, you begin to panic because nothing is coming in, and the more you panic, the worse it gets.
Knowing that the phase your children in right now is only temporary still does not 'fix' or soothe the frustration you are feeling. Topping that off, you don't even really know what you want to DO with yourself.
Girl, you are in a radical state of change. You are on the verge of starting another 'phase' of your life, and when I say that, I mean you are changing and evolving on the inside. Others looking at you may not see it, but YOU definitely FEEL it. It's like trying to think of someone's name, it's on the tip of your tongue, but sill is elusive, and no matter how hard you think, you just can't remember, but you KNOW -- you know?
All I can tell you is, breathe. Stop pushing so hard. Relax your mind, stop trying so hard to find the answer. It will 'come' to you when you are ready and relaxed. Think through this process. Really try and pinpoint what you think is 'missing.' I can tell you how I did it, but it may not work for you, and I'm not sure if this is the appropriate spot to discuss it.
Send me an email if you want:
corri@ftio.comHang in there, you're going to be okay.
Corri
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I've been struggling with this for weeks, months really. I plan to start applying to jobs and landing one, but I know that this will only breed resentment for me. Does anyone have any advice or suggestions to help me not feel so disappointed that my marriage isn't living up to what I wanted? I have always felt very strongly that the man should be able to provide for his family, so this is hard for me to swallow. The way I feel is if I'm working (especially full time), then I might as well be a single mother. I know I sound ridiculous, but I can't seem to dig myself out of this self pity.
Hello Pam,
No, you don't sound ridiculous. We all want the best for our children. They are little for only such a short time and you cannot regain lost time with your babies. You may feel that you don't want to miss those precious years and terrible guilt in returning to work and leaving them in childcare. Staying at home is a wonderful opportunity but not everyone can. However don't be too quick in thinking that you and your babies will be too unhappy in a new sitch where you have to work (if necessary). Do your math and work out all the pros and cons, consider all your options and discuss them with your H before deciding. (Hey, you're both in counselling to improve communication and this is one good area to work on). You might find that eventually you even like returning to work once you have eased into it though it may seem scary and such a big change now. Here is a good link for SAHMs from others faced with the same dilemma about returning to work. Do check it out.
A Time For Work
You asked how to get rid of feelings of resentment. I would say replace it with a good dose of empathy. I too am a SAHM and I know my H would probably prefer it if I worked and contributed to the expenses. I can see the stress and burden he feels in making sure that we don't lose that one income. He works really hard and has to take on a lot of crap at the workplace just to make sure that we are all well taken care of financially. (Maybe thats why he is now LD) I really wish I could help take part of that stress away. My H leaves the house really early, deals with a lot of stress at work and comes home to more stress seeing me all hassled my being 7 1/2 months pregnant and chasing after my 20 month old dd. He tries his best to help me out and cheer me up but I can see he really needs the rest himself and sometimes he is just so tired he falls asleep right after dinner. My contribution is to take good care of him by making sure he gets good food, good sleep and by giving him foot massages and an old fashion back scratch which he loves, for now and later on consider going back to work to share the finances.
So Pam, next time you feel resentment or self pity building up, think instead of your H and how he must be feeling. Shift the focus away from you and to him. You will find the resentment floating away. Yours (being a SAHM) is a tough job having the toddlers follow you around 24/7 but its richly rewarding when you see that lovely smile and get to witness all the wonders of their milestones development yourself. But what sort of reward does your H get at work? Is he doing something he loves? Does he work long hours? Does he have good employers? Does he face a lot of stress at work?
Oh and BTW, I am not sure he will be all that keen on you returning to work if he learns of your building resentment. Studies have shown that working mothers with young children face the greatest stress. You are both working on your desire descrepancies now. Has he ever considered how the stress of change and returning to work and your even having less time than before with your time divided between work, children and him and how this will affect your SSM sitch?
Have you told him how you feel about returning to work? If you do talk to him don't forget that dose of empathy. Discuss how your returning to work will affect the BOTH of you AND your toddlers rather than how dissapointed YOU feel that he is not living up to your expectations of how you think your M life should be and that he should be the provider etc etc.
Just my two cents. Hope this helped and hope you get out of your rut soon.
LH
Aquarian,
I'm sorry to hear that you are feeling blue because your posts to me have certainly helped me to cheer up.
I have an idea you can consider. You do graphic and web design but have you considered a change of direction? My W was a fashion buyer before we started a family. She stayed at home to look after our children and although money was not really a problem she always hankered after a job. In London there is a shortage of childminders and for a year or so she looked after our nephew for my sister. He was the same sort of age as our toddler. After a while a neighbour asked her to look after her two sons and all of a sudden she had a new business. If you love children, child care is ideal because you do not have to commute, the costs are low and the money is good if you have two children. Now that ours are older (youngest is 11) toddlers just aren't part of our scene anymore but because she has had so much contact with the childcare world she now has a job as a classroom assistant at a local school which she absolutely loves. It also gives her a lot of pleasure telling me about her school day so we have a good line of communication there. Perhaps a change of direction is what you need too.
I hope this helps,
SD
Corri: Thank you again
I will take you up on that email offer! Your journal entry to CeMar helped too.
LH: Thanks for the link.
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I would say replace it with a good dose of empathy.
Yes, I try to do that.
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my being 7 1/2 months pregnant and chasing after my 20 month old dd
Brings back memories Our dd was 20 months old when our son was born. *sigh* Take good care of yourself and your little girl.
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I am not sure he will be all that keen on you returning to work if he learns of your building resentment. Have you told him how you feel about returning to work?
Yes, I have told him. The issue keeps coming up though, so it's time to stop beating a dead horse and contribute! H browses the board from time to time and reads my posts, so we had a discussion last night.
SD: I'm so glad to be able to cheer you up. It really does make me feel good to reach out and help others.
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You do graphic and web design but have you considered a change of direction?
Yes, I am trying to figure out what that change should be. I'm tired of design as a career. I just want to do it as a hobby now. I do have some ideas but most of them require going back to school and that's not currently feasible. I applied to a few jobs yesterday and came across an ad in the paper that piqued my interest as a seemingly perfect solution, but H made me promise not to apply. I'll just have to give working a shot and see if our finances improve. Unfortunately I don't have the patience or desire to watch other people's children.
Thank you for taking the time to help me out guys. I'm not feeling as blue or hopeless today.
I hate it when I feel like that! Every now and then something gets me down and it seems like the end of my world. Thanks for your kind words and suggestions.
Well, this is just a diary entry really. Just have had some thoughts in my head lately and figured other perspectives may help... that is if anyone even wants to comment!
I thought we made a great couple and that's why I married him. I grew up as a girl next door type who loved playing with boys and tomboys. Romance wasn't a huge issue for me back then. It wasn't necessary to shower me with gifts. I still feel this way, however there is something that is missing or lacking.
My therapist called me yesterday to see how I was doing since we've reduced our sessions from bi-weekly to once a month as a couple. She seems to be pushing me to come in every week and we just can't afford that. She backed off and asked if she could followup with me every Monday. Fine with me, I suppose. I don't know. It's been on my agenda this week to sit down and really think about what I need from my husband and now all of a sudden that is my "homework"??? Hmmm.
I was on a web site yesterday and copied these quotes because they struck me somehow. Here they are:
"Very early in our marriage we posted a piece of wisdom that has helped us through good times and bad. It read, "Marriage is like running a farm, you have to start all over every day." It takes work to have a good marriage and lots of it! (Saul, 66, married 41 years)"
Isn't that so true?! I keep thinking about this quote and can't quite put my finger on whether we're both running the farm or not.
"Look at her - a lot. Let her "catch" you staring, glancing, etc. It shows her you are noticing her doing normal everyday things - it makes her feel special. She in turn will notice you. It's that simple. Once you stop looking, she'll look around to see if anyone is noticing her. And the first person that does could cause a potential conflict in your marriage. All women want to feel special. If a husband does not, will not or can not make his wife feel special, she will fill that void elsewhere. (Sharon, married 7 years)"
This hit me in the forehead! I feel taken for granted for the most part, as if I'm a glorified roommate who should be a nimphomaniac. LOL... a bit sarcastic!
"Support your wife in her life's work and hobbies. Celebrate her individual successes. She then will support and celebrate yours. Help your wife to become her own unique and powerful individual. She will help you. Two heads are better than one. Listen to your wife; mine is more often right about which direction to go than I am. Don't make a big deal out of little stuff, save your "big deal" reactions for the big stuff. Have fun together. Avoid jealousy. Set her free and she will be there with you; she will be grateful you are not controlling her. Your own freedom comes from being together when you support her. (George, 44, second marriage of 14 years)"
That hits even harder. My husband lacks in this department. He doesn't really seem to have hobbies other than watching hockey. He likes to play golf... and I don't share his enthusiasm for it. I go with him and enjoy the sunshine and challenge, but it's not an activity I look forward to or even think about. I encourage him to go with friends as much as possible and love to pat him on the back when he's had a good round. I wish he encouraged me more than he does. He compliments my aquarium once in a while, but complains when I buy stuff for it... like plants or pricey fish. He also pouts over my need to communicate with people. He absolutely hates that I am so open and he feels like our life is an open book.
I've hinted in a few of my posts that he does this and I've even discussed it with him, but he just doesn't seem to get my POV. It makes me feel as if he doesn't TRUST me. Like, I'm only doing it because I'm secretly hoping to find someone better than him. It drives me crazy! Why can't he just understand that I NEED to communicate and help people? Why can't he just understand that the board is theraputic for me? And... why does he insist on checking up on me by seeing who I've posted to and what I've said to them? I guess that's a bit of a vent!
I feel like I'm always the one to fix the problem. I have a very difficult time feeling entitled to the "extra" things especially now that our money depends mostly on him. One of H's suggestions was that he work a second job... at night. That struck me as a jab instead of a solution! I mean, how sane would I be without a break? I really look forward to him getting home at 4:30 every day! Not just because it relieves me from full responsibility of the kids, but because I love being around him. I wish he was more excited to see me.
{{{{{{{{{{Aquarian}}}}}}}}}}
SD
awww thank you SuperDave! I needed that
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MPT, you are a genius! Thank you for that post! I believe that is what I'm reaching for in my therapy sessions and the way you put it, it seems silly that H and I should be shelling out $$$ to get there (as slowly as we are). Why did it take your post for me to *see* this?
Hey Aquarian,
Feel free to send some of the $$ my way if you really liked what I had to say. I won’t mind. Wish I could take full credit for the idea, but it comes from several wise people in my life.
Seriously, I hope that approach works as well for you as it does for us. It really does turn the whole thing around. It’s energizing. It also has the extra benefit of giving your HD spouse more of what he wants than the self-sacrificing, “I’m doing it for you” approach, (hereafter referred to as IDIFY.)
When I first found this site, I was in the place you and Corri are now. I’d been having regular, frequent sex with my H, for his sake for several months. I was feeling resentful. I felt I was the one putting in all this effort. I was losing my motivation. I found the site when I was looking for ways to increase my libido so that I would want sex the way I used to. The book SSM didn’t really provide the kind of information I was hoping for, although I got some useful stuff out of it. It isn’t really written for that purpose.
It isn’t surprising the first approach an LD spouse would take is the IDIFY. Afterall, the request comes in as “I’m unhappy. Take care of my needs, make me feel loved and desired. Do it for me if you really love me.” Even the book presents it from this angle. So that’s what the LD person does. But that doesn’t really work for long before the HD spouse says, “That’s not what I really want.” And the LD spouse is thinking, “I give so much and it’s still not good enough! Why do I always have to be the one putting in all the effort for him/her. I’m not getting what I need either!” Then the ledger book opens up.
The IDIFY approach also leaves the HD person in a position of “owing” the LD person something. It doesn’t give them an ego-boost. The person who gets to feel good about themselves is the LD person, ‘cause they’re doing so much for the sake of their spouse. It doesn’t even sustain the LD person indefinitely and without potentially building resentment, especially if the LD person sees no corresponding effort from the HD spouse. And they will need to see that effort to sustain the IDIFY approach. But that keeps the ledger book open.
So now that you’ve decided to get sex back into your life, do it as much for yourself as for your spouse. You’ll become a person who is in control of your sexuality, without being HD or LD. You will no longer be at the mercy of your libido. And you will have another pathway to feeling connected to your spouse. The more pathways the better.
Its like taking a course just for the purpose of learning, not the grade. You just can't lose with this approach!
You can take all of this and flip it on its head for the HD person showing a true interest in their spouse in ways other than sex. It's not just about LD and sex. When they approach this with the idea that there is a real benefit to their own growth and development, then they will begin to put in the self-motivated, sustained effort that it takes. They’ll want to explore new ways and depths of knowing their spouse and finding out how their own life can grow as a result. The criteria for success will be developing more pathways to feeling connected to their spouse and growing within themselves, not more sex. (And the added benefit is that the "LD" spouse will start getting more of what it is s/he really wants from their spouse. Not a tit for tat (no pun intended, maybe ) exchange, but real interest.)
There’s more than one way to get out of the “Center of the Universe” seat. Its not just about looking at what another person seems to need and trying to put them before yourself. It’s about being open to new experiences and new ways of looking and thinking about things. It’s about wanting to get out of the ever so comfortable seat and wanting to explore new aspects of yourself and your spouse!! You can’t do that sitting in the same place day in and out, looking at the world through the same old lenses.
Best of luck to you, MPT
Holy cow, MPT.
I get what you are saying, and I'm supremely thankful you showed up to share that. I'm thinking over the last few weeks, and I do remember a few nights when *I* said to myself, now what if I did this.... and I did that. I did that for ME. Yeah, he got jazzed by it, but *I* was my motivation and it did something radically different for me. Can't really explain it, but I think I really get what you are saying...
Huh. Well, sheettt, what a great, new and different way of looking at the world....
Hey. I understand you have to get on with your life, but please pop in every now and again... you can wave your fairy wand of wisdom and depart, I won't mind....
Corri
I've been dying to respond, but my kids kept me really busy this morning! I've been trying to post for hours now!!
Thank you so much for that post MPT! I will be reading that a few times and letting it really soak in!
You know, I've been trying to put my finger on something. Every time I read a post from CeMar saying how hopeless an LD/ND spouse is, etc... I can't help but think that the DESIRE/DRIVE discrepancies many of us are facing are not just about sex. I believe MPT has just nailed that. CeMar, you're on the right track with the "improving your marriage" vs. sexlife approach. The problem is, "improving your marriage" is such a generic goal, isn't it?! I think the marriage will be improved if both spouses are willing to take a good look at the whole picture, and the emphasis shouldn't be LD or HD!! That just sets us up to have our ledger books open! Thanks MPT!
Bear with me, just thinking out loud... Both the HD and the LD spouse wants/needs more of whatever it is that attracted them in the first place (I think is what it boils down to). When we met our spouses and were in that "infatuation" phase... what made them stand out? What made us anticipate our dates together? What did we visualize our futures would be like with them? Why did we exchange marriage vows? What was it about them that made them the best candidate to parent our children? What was it that made them our best friend AND lover? Somehow one or more of these qualities has been diminished or nulled over time... or perhaps, just forgotten?
I'm going to answer all of these questions (from both perspectives... that of me and my H looking at me) and hopefully I'll get a little closer to finding out what my actual goals are, rather than simply ML more often.
Aquarian:
Yes, I want my WHOLE marriage to improve. I want my wife to get all of her needs met. But I also want ALL of my needs met. In the long run, a great marriage will require PASSION for sex.
CeMar, I believe passion for sex is the ultimate goal for ANY couple. I wasn't implying sex should be overlooked. I think that, as MPT pointed out, exploring all the pathways to connecting with your spouse (again or further) will be an aphrodesiac so to speak.
Ok, here we are mid March and I figured the easiest way for me to figure out what was missing, was to recap my sitch... go through my posts and comment on anything that jumped out at me. Amazingly, it has helped me, so I hope it helps anyone to see this "LD"s perspective.
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How am I supposed to try to save our M and work on my LD when I can't even imagine ML anymore. How can he ever make me trust him again? How can he be so sure that he can make me fall in love with him again?
These are my words in January 2004. I've come a long way baby! I have not rejected H and imagine ML quite often now, to the point of initiating more often. I trust him again since he has not disrespected me. What I AM having a hard time with is the fact that he doesn't seem to be putting much visible effort into making me fall in love with him.
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I think part of the problem (in general) is the fact that H only seems to engage in foreplay in bed.
This hasn't really changed either. Sure, we hug and kiss but I don't get the impression that he wants to ML to me or finds me attractive outside of our bedroom or when it's not evening. I need more words of affirmation during the day. His emails really helped but I haven't received one now for about a week or so.
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Morninglory said: I had to analyze why I felt attracted or repulsed by my H, what specifically were triggers.
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I said: He treated me like his Queen; he didn’t drink or do drugs; he didn’t go out with the boys; he wanted to spend any free time with me; he wanted to be a family man and devoted husband; he wanted to be my best friend; he was a hardworker. He was the boy nextdoor, without a nasty past. He was innocent and pure. He was worthy of my full love. I completely trusted him. I knew he would be a loving husband and a doting father. He would be a father that our children could go to and feel safe and loved with. He would take care of me and always love me.
Qualities that attract me to H are:
-Sends me an email or calls me from work (from time to time) to let me know he's thinking of me
-Respects my sexual hangups (doesn't ask for bjs, initiates majority of the time, more later...)
-Perceptive of when I'm feeling down and comforts me
-He's a hardworker with a strong work ethic
-He's somewhat firm and doesn't do things just to please others; he's true to himself/his values
-He doesn't go out with the boys; he's not a drinker
-Encourages me to be a good mother
-Compliments my aquarium, how well the fish look, etc.
-Encourages me to find more hobbies
-Supports my aspirations
-His sexual stamina and desire to please me 
-His acceptance and love of my post-babies body
-His acceptance of my quirks
Qualities that need work on are:
-"Forcing" me to spend time alone for myself instead of me feeling as if I need to make sure it's ok.
-Taking the kids out so they can spend time just with daddy
-Spending more quality time with just me
-Letting me know he loves me with words of affirmation rather than just wanting to ML
-Trusting my intentions
Qualities that repulse me are:
-Procrastination
-Laziness
-Insecurity/Mistrust 
-Questioning my intentions
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I feel loved when:
I am shown appreciation and affection. I am romanced and wanted, trusted, listened to, and my feelings are validated. I am treated as a woman and not a possession. My expectation in regard to this is that it should not have changed when I accepted his proposal.
Hmm. Again, I don't feel loved when the only affection I seem to get is sexual attention in bed. I'll have to expand on this.
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He mentioned that he's felt good for the past few weeks and isn't necessarily going to cancel his therapy, but doesn't think he needs it. He thinks he's figured everything out and he knows what he has to do. I just listened and was saddened that my fears were coming to light. I was afraid he wouldn't think his past behaviour was a huge problem. I was afraid he'd think the only change he has to make is to give me control of our sex life. I was very afraid he wouldn't finish the books our therapist suggested.
This is big for me. I discussed this "issue" with my therapist on Monday. I told her how I resent feeling like the one who fixes things. It's always up to me to do something. Even when I do do something and work towards a goal, it seems like H just continues without any change or effort. For example, back in December, we discussed how we needed to reconnect by going out on dates. We couldn't think of anything to do other than dinner and/or movies, so I suggested we each make a list of 10 things we like to do and then we could compare our lists and figure out what would be fun together for our dates. I've suggested "lists" like this before but nothing ever makes it to paper... so I'm waiting for his list and I guess he's waiting for mine. This is very frustrating. It's always up to me what I want to do. I was telling my therapist, I would love H to surprise me and be spontaneous once in a while. He has mentioned a few things he wanted to do, but they never pan out! I love skiidoing, but we've never went. He talked out going to a dinner theatre for Valentine's... but we didn't do that. He needs to stop talking about things and just do them. That will turn me on.
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He validated my feelings by saying that all these years he'd been listening to me, but he just wasn't HEARING what I was telling him. He thanked me for carrying the burden of our sexual crisis for so long and told me how proud of me he was. He knew I was a strong and determined woman when we met, but now he really knew it! I explained to him that in December, when he had apologized (so genuinely) I thought he was where he is today (January). That is why I was so devasted and unsure of our future. He understands finally and we're working together now as a team rather than opponents.
These must have fed my words of affirmation because I reverted to a full fledged HD until I realized my love tank needed more fuel.
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From H's letter:I was starting to feel self-conscious about my role as a lover and inadequate. I told her that I don’t know how to turn her on anymore and that I need her to tell me what it is that gives her pleasure and will turn her on. I don’t recall what her response was but I know it never helped us. We began to talk about our lack of love making, she again insisted that it was not me, that it was her and how she wasn’t feeling sexy about herself.
It's too bad he saw this as solely a sexual problem and not a relationship problem. I wasn't very good at communicating that my needs weren't being met (QT and WOA) because I didn't realize it then... all I could tell him was that it wasn't him, I found him attractive, but I didn't feel sexual/sexy. This seems to be a common pattern in this forum. I honestly thought it WAS all me back then.
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I have just come to realise that I’m the luckiest guy on the planet as I still have a beautiful, sexy, loving wife who still wants to work out our problems. I had feared that I might have screwed things forever, but her courage, determination, love and her will has given me hope. I have given her a mountain to climb and I’ll be damned to let her do this on her own. We will climb this mountain together, and I THANK her for that.
What more could a girl ask for?! 
That went straight into my love tank! I don't feel like he's not letting me do this on my own though.
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MPT said:The criteria for success is no longer whether he feels loved, but whether you feel your sexual self growing and developing. If it's not, then use him some more. But you're the one who hired him as your personal trainer and you have some expectations of him. The big question is do YOU want to develop your sexual side more fully and completely for your own sake?
I definitely do, and that is precisely why I chose to see a sex therapist. I missed being sexual! I knew it wasn't normal or healthy. I also wanted to dig in and find out if it really was just me or our marriage.
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MPT said:You can take all of this and flip it on its head for the HD person showing a true interest in their spouse in ways other than sex. It's not just about LD and sex. When they approach this with the idea that there is a real benefit to their own growth and development, then they will begin to put in the self-motivated, sustained effort that it takes. They’ll want to explore new ways and depths of knowing their spouse and finding out how their own life can grow as a result. The criteria for success will be developing more pathways to feeling connected to their spouse and growing within themselves, not more sex.
I love this quote - thank you MPT!
When we met our spouses and were in that "infatuation" phase... what made them stand out?
He called every night just to hear my voice and ask what I did and how it went. He cared about what I was doing. He was interested. Lots of words of affirmation were used.
What made us anticipate our dates together?
The buildup of not being able to see or touch him everyday. The anticipation of spending the weekend together in orgasmic bliss!
Well that's all for now. Thanks for reading.
Aquarian:
I read through your post and it strikes me as being so similar to the way my wife probably feels. It is enlightening to see a little more prespective from a LD. One thing stood out at me in your lists of your husbands qualities that attract you:
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Respects my sexual hangups (doesn't ask for bjs, initiates majority of the time, more later...)
From a HD perspective, this is usually the OPPOSITE of what we want in a relationship. Here is what I and many HD men want from our wives, women that LOVE to initiate sex, women that Love to give BJ's, especially without us having to ask. We want women that have no sexual hangups.
If you want to make real deposits into your husbands love band, YOU MUST BE THE AGRESSOR. When the woman is the agressor, the sex counts for about 10x more then when I am the agressor. Womens sexual hangups are THE CAUSE of SSM's.
You truly can not love a man the way he needs until you love his penis. Read the "Secrets about every man that every woman should know". You really do have to get very cozy with a mans penis to have a GREAT marraige.
Cemar, you said:
Quote:
If you want to make real deposits into your husbands love band, YOU MUST BE THE AGRESSOR. When the woman is the agressor, the sex counts for about 10x more then when I am the agressor. Womens sexual hangups are THE CAUSE of SSM's.
You truly can not love a man the way he needs until you love his penis. Read the "Secrets about every man that every woman should know". You really do have to get very cozy with a mans penis to have a GREAT marraige.
I don't necessarily agree with everything you say here, which is why I'd urge Pam to check with her H to see if this is really what she wants. I like to be the aggressor (sorry, I like "initiator" better) about half the time, as long as when I initiate, it is met with loving acceptance. And I knew from the start that my W didn't like to give BJs. I accepted that. What I didn't know or expect was her rejection of my giving her oral sex (which I love, and miss) and her general LD/ND problem. It's been six months now, and I miss it so bad.
Hairdog, who snuggled with his wife this morning and avoided touching her erogenous zones, as directed.
Hairdog:
I have read some experts that say in many marriages, it's not the frequency that is the problem, but who initiates it. Initiating sex SHOWS that you are desired. My wife has not initiated sex in 8 years. If I have to initiate the sex, I will hardly even give her credit for having sex. In terms of the love bank concept, I would say that if my wife initiates sex, she gets a +10. If I initate sex and she allows it, I give her a +1, if I am rejected, give her a -3. So the only real way for my wife to actually get positive units for the love bank is for her to initate. Remember, this is not about sex, this is about "Complete Sexual Fullfillment". The "DESIRE" of the wife is FAR more valuable to me then the actual act of sex.
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The "DESIRE" of the wife is FAR more valuable to me then the actual act of sex.
But can't she show her desire in other ways besides initiating? In SSM, Michelle says that a lot of women don't feel any desire until after the foreplay begins.
Seems like it's a pretty hard target for Ms. CeMar to reach. Maybe you ought to cut her some slack, pal.
CeMar
I'm confused, does that mean you never want to initiate sex again? You want her to do it all the time? Whats wrong with both of you initiating at different times?
Annette
CeMar,
My wife is like yours and has never initiated (except once on a hillside in Yorkshire in 1980). Recently while trying to talk about SSM subjects she told me that she has often initiated sex but I have not responded. I tried to press her on exactly when this had happened because surely I would have noticed. She said "oh it happens all the time" and would not be more specific than that. I have given this some thought and come to the conclusion that she must occasionally feel in the mood and lie there waiting to see if anything happens and this feeling feels to her as if she is initiating even though there are no outward signs obvious enough for a man to read. Because I have had so many knock backs I daren't initiate anything unless it is a) The last friday in the month. b) The month has an "r" in it. c) we hav'nt had an argument in the last few days. d) Her bath water was sufficiently hot and bubbly. e) I hadn't given my self an HJ in her (slightly less hot by the time I get in it) bathwater etc.etc. so on those occasions when she feels receptive and in her mind she is initiating, I have left her wanting. So I guess if I initiate and she accepts then it must mean that she has initiated herself internally - if that makes any sense - and so should she score perhaps as much as +5?
SD
SD
I think you hit one nail on the head here. Alot of people don't give very clear signals. Maybe thats something alot of couples should talk about. I know my H isn't very clear with his signals. There were times in the past when he just gave me a little peck (kiss) and to him that was initiating.
Annette
hairdog:
Since I make all the moves in regards to sex, how would I ever know if she desires me (i.e. Loves Me)? Remember, I see desire and love as the same thing (like most HD men). I am not expecting miracles, but some initiation is really necessary for the health of the marriage. My wife sees sex as her wifely duty, and I do not want this at all! Willingness to have sex is actually a turn-off for me. Heck, it almost begins to feel like rape. It's really all about desire!
annette:
I initiate 100% of the time. People that desire sex, initiate sex. SO when a women does not initiate sex with her man, she is sending a VERY clear signal that she does not desire him, and therefore she does not love him. This may not be what she intends, but this is the way most men actually see it. I could not possible love some woman and NOT desire them sexually. So since she does not desire me, I will always see this as not loving me. So initiating is the most important way to show that you DESIRE your spouse.
SD
So that was you and Mrs. SD on that hillside in Yorkshire 24 years ago. I thought it was a couple of odd looking sheep.
I know when my wife initiates, because she either 1)grabs Mr. Happy; or 2) says, "do you wanna fool around?" Actually, the last time we ML was in September 2003, right after my vasectomy, and she grabbed Mr. Happy and said, "let's see if this thing still works." I thought that was actually pretty cool.
But I don't get the "internal initiating" thing your W does. I'd either let it drop, or say, "If you ever initiate sex, and I don't seem to be responding it's because I am not aware that you are initiating sex, or I'm asleep, or I'm dead. If I'm not aware, please make me aware. If I'm asleep, wake me up. If I'm dead, call the undertaker."
Frankly, when she told you this, I'm surprised you didn't let the teddies fly out of the pram!
We've established that we will try to be together once on the weekend and once during the middle of the week. Because it's rare that we can be spontaneous, she will need to agree to a time. She's against real "scheduling" like "every Sat pm". So I said, then let me know which night or let me know a window of time for me to initiate.
I did ask that at least once a week, she initiate by giving me a warning hours in advance. My story was that it would drive the "anticipation" levels up, but the real reason is that it will get her into 2 habits...1. thinking about sex earlier in the day. 2. Learning to to "mentally" prepare herself and psych herself up throughout the day. This will increase the "sex thinking" during the day
I think the overall goal of the LD should be to increase the amount of "sex thinking".
She said that if I want to initiate, that I will basically need to ask "which night this weekend?" or something. Hmmm. Once again...the anticipation is there because it's known in advance.
You know, I think that a lot of women initiate in very subtle ways, such as jutting their bottoms out so that contact is inevitable..or positioning their bodies in such a way that their breasts are rightthere. Or they put their legs up on their husbands. Or rub their husbands stomachs, things like that.
The problem with such actions is that there is too much room for misinterpreting it. And what on one night would be considered her initiating would some other night be considered her just wanting to cuddle. The line is too blurry.
So we HD people misinterpret the signals and either miss out on an opportunity (WHY they can't just say, Hey I was trying to initiate but you're missing it, silly!) or we read too much into an innocent affection and then look like an ass for trying.
I know that my H gets a lot more affectionate when he wants sex. I usually realize this after the fact, I am sorry to say. Because it is the usual affection--pecks, hugs--just more of them. So I think he is just being lovey dovey. You'd think I'd catch on but I have conditioned myself to NOT read sex into his every move so that I am not continually disappointed.
One of these days I will get my nerve up and when H starts kissing me more I will realize what he is up to and suggest we make love that night. Keep your fingers crossed that I am not wrong about these signals of his!
HP
hd:
I'm ashamed to say that I turned her down on that hillside (Ilkley Moor) but then there was this hairy guy walking a Boxer dog and watching...
SD
Hairdog, you said:
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What I didn't know or expect was her rejection of my giving her oral sex (which I love, and miss) and her general LD/ND problem. It's been six months now, and I miss it so bad.
Wow, that hit me like a ton of bricks. For me, though, it's been more like 8 years (and counting). She just informed me one day that she didn't want that anymore. Ever! Talk about rejection!
This was one of my favorite things, and I would gladly engage in this for as long as she could stand it! I would happily take direction, because that meant I'd get to do it longer! Man, how I miss it!
If she instead restricted me to just that one thing, I'd be a happy man! I know there's a lot more I want to say on this topic, but I can't think at the moment...
Hey Honeypot,
Are you thinking that LD women initiate that way?
Actually Dave, some HDW initiate that way too. I guess its more subtle but at least my H usually gets it or used to but I don't initiate anything anymore because I am too afraid of rejection. Hey, even my words get rejected and my sexy emails ignored. My self confidence gets a nose drive and these days I dare not even say anything anymore let alone initiate!
LH
I definitely agree that when my wife initiates, it makes me feel desired. Unfortuately that's almost the only times in the past 10 years we have done anything because long ago i stopped trying to avoid the pain of rejection.
Many times i would hear "i woke up kind of horny last night but you were sleeping". Geez. I have had standing orders to wake me up in that situation and reinforce that each time...still...i think that only happened once in the past 5 years that i was woken up.
More recently when i brought up the topic of her initiating, i was told that she doesn't like it. It makes her feel 'manly'. Geez. This from a very fit woman with an hourglass figure. Who also feels fat when her waist is up 1/2 inch from ideal. ugh..sorry for that rant..sometimes we need to let it out.
If i try and initiate with something obvious "lets have sex" its too crude. If i get grabby, its either rude or taken as just playing around.
If i get lovey and touchy...its a nice touch.
A few weekends ago we were on a trip and on the way there i mentioned that i was horny. In bed the next morning i was very affectionate and loving with touches and carressing...nothing...later when asked about it she responded "well you've told me that i have the right to say no". Sure...but thats been exceptionally excessive.
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CeMar said: Here is what I and many HD men want from our wives, women that LOVE to initiate sex, women that Love to give BJ's, especially without us having to ask. We want women that have no sexual hangups. If you want to make real deposits into your husbands love band, YOU MUST BE THE AGRESSOR. When the woman is the agressor, the sex counts for about 10x more then when I am the agressor. Womens sexual hangups are THE CAUSE of SSM's.
I disagree. You can't pin the cause of SSM's solely on sexual hangups! What a bold statement for you to make. So many people have some kind of hangup... and not everyone is or can be an "agressor".
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I said: Respects my sexual hangups (doesn't ask for bjs, initiates majority of the time, more later...)
Somehow, I knew that line would cause some grief! I admit, when our R was "new" I masked my hangups so I guess you could call me a bait and switch. However, we lived together for almost 3 years before our 1.5 year engagement. I'm pretty sure it became apparent during our first years that I preferred to offer BJs. I've also never been very partial to the taste of ejaculate, so I prefer to take it or wear it. My other hangups include not enjoying cunnalingus. I never have. I've never been able to let go and relax enough to enjoy it. I'm sure my H misses our 69 days, but that was fairly rare even in the beginning. This is deep rooted from walking in on my mother while my stepfather was "going to town" on her, when I was 9. I prefer to be in darkness but have ML in candlelight. My body image has also contributed significantly to my hangups; as I gained weight I felt less attractive and less sexy. I felt ridiculously inferior to porn stars, as silly as that may be. As for initiating... I believe in the very beginning, H did the initiating. I began to initiate about half of the time and then I think there was a short time when I was mostly initiating and he rejected me because he had acquired a friction burn! Over time, I think I got comfortable with him being the initiator simply because I felt that was the man's role... as silly as that may sound. I don't know. Maybe it's due to my religious upbringing? Maybe it's due to my dislike of porn? Maybe it's my little girl mentality that good girls don't ask for sex? Maybe I just prefer to be somewhat submissive? I am working on all of these and hope to one day be able to be completely uninhibited.
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CeMar said: Since I make all the moves in regards to sex, how would I ever know if she desires me (i.e. Loves Me)? Remember, I see desire and love as the same thing (like most HD men). I am not expecting miracles, but some initiation is really necessary for the health of the marriage. My wife sees sex as her wifely duty, and I do not want this at all! Willingness to have sex is actually a turn-off for me.
Well Geee. I sure hope my H knows that I desire him when I have an orgasm, make sounds, look into his eyes, suggest a position or jutting my bottom out to him. I sure hope he knows that I desire him when I tell him that was great!! or that was nice!! or ask for a smoke afterwards!! If the only way your W can show you desire is to initiate... I'm really sorry. That's sad.
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Honeypot said: You know, I think that a lot of women initiate in very subtle ways, such as jutting their bottoms out so that contact is inevitable..or positioning their bodies in such a way that their breasts are rightthere. Or they put their legs up on their husbands. Or rub their husbands stomachs, things like that. The problem with such actions is that there is too much room for misinterpreting it. The line is too blurry.
Maybe we should have another survey to see how LD spouses initiate, successfully. Myself, I initiate by caressing my H's inner thighs. I come right out and ask if he wants to ML. I stroke his penis and give him a (mini) BJ and then tell him I want him inside me.
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SuperDave said: I'm ashamed to say that I turned her down on that hillside (Ilkley Moor) but then there was this hairy guy walking a Boxer dog and watching...
Thank you SuperDave and Hairdog for the comic relief! You two are such a hoot.
Pam, you said:
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My other hangups include not enjoying cunnalingus. I never have. I've never been able to let go and relax enough to enjoy it. I'm sure my H misses our 69 days, but that was fairly rare even in the beginning. This is deep rooted from walking in on my mother while my stepfather was "going to town" on her, when I was 9. I prefer to be in darkness but have ML in candlelight. My body image has also contributed significantly to my hangups; as I gained weight I felt less attractive and less sexy. I felt ridiculously inferior to porn stars, as silly as that may be.
I hope I won't sound fatuous if I point out that to know so much about yourself and your own motivations and hangups, and the trouble they're causing for you, and be willing to live with them instead of doing something about them is something you might want to think about...
CeMar
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it's not the frequency that is the problem, but who initiates it. Initiating sex SHOWS that you are desired. My wife has not initiated sex in 8 years. If I have to initiate the sex, I will hardly even give her credit for having sex
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I don't think this is very fair, sorry, its the way I see it. All I was saying is whats wrong with both of you initiating sex? If you could get her to the point of initiating sex say about 30% of the time, wouldn't that show you she loves you? If you could get her to that point, would that not be a BIG improvement? The way you were talking sounded like unless she initiated sex 100% of the time you would still not be happy? Is there no compromise with you?
I understand the need for physical fulfilment, believe me, I know, but there has to be a compromise somewhere in the equation between 2 seemingly different people. You have to be willing to come down just a little and she has to be willing to go up some. Wheather we like it or not people and situations change. Change happens everyday. We, as intelligent humans have to be willing to make changes to deal with it. I'm not saying you have to learn to live without anything physical, just that maybe you need to compromise with her to make it better for yourself.
Annette
annette:
I would be incredibly happy if the wife initiated 30% of the time, currently it is 0%. It will never get to 30% of the time, as that would probably require REAL DESIRE from her.
Now for compromise, I would like my marriage to return to the wa it was during the first four years. Lot's of kissing, snuggling, sex everyday, wife initiating sometimes, lot's of naked time together, multi orgasmic sex that takes and hour or two, and most importantly BJ'S. Now the sex is once a month, I start it, I give 45 minutes of foreplay, then she gives me 5-10 minutes of just straight sex. THat is sex 12 times a year. If I cut MY needs by 2/3, that still means sex more then 100+ times a year. And the toughest part of all, I want to know that she WANTS to have sex with me, no more of this "Hurry up and get done so I can get to sleep" crap.
By the way, why does it seem that ND/LD spouses always seem to value sleep over sex? Why are these people always tired? I am NEVER to tired for sex!
CeMar
I have no idea why they (LD) spouses seem to be tired alot. I have come to the conclusion that sex will almost never be during the week for me. H is just always too tired for anything after working during the week. Very seldom have I ever been too tired for sex also.
I don't know what to say CeMar, you seem to be totally depressed about your sitch. I've been reading here for several months and have seen some very good advice put out. Do you and the W communicate at all on this subject?
Annette
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I have no idea why they (LD) spouses seem to be tired alot. I have come to the conclusion that sex will almost never be during the week for me. H is just always too tired for anything after working during the week. Very seldom have I ever been too tired for sex also.
BINGO!!! She's tired all the time - she complains about it constantly! Seems to be her main complaint. Wow - could it be an avoidance mechanism, I wonder???
Sure seems spooky that there are so MANY common things with LD spouses. Doesn't fill me with hope, exactly.
Tim
It could be. Being tired all the time could be any number of things. Including, depression. Now thats not a very good thing, huh? Depression meds? UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
Annette
Dave, are you an engineer or a psychologist or something? You are a man with a plan. I hope it works.
On the subject of initiating I think that you have to be a lot more patient. If it has been 8 years then a full scale HD/HD relationship is not going to happen suddenly. In my sitch W has never initiated (apart from one time but that was interupted by hairdog out poaching and watching us through his binoculars) but I guess I can live with that because I can see love in her eyes during "Quality Time" and I know that her agreeing to once a week is an act of love and a sort of initiation even though it will probably always be me who makes the first move. If she doesn't resist then I see that as love. Who knows, after a few months when she is comfortable with it she may start things off sometimes - I can dream at least.
SD
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(apart from one time but that was interupted by hairdog out poaching and watching us through his binoculars)
Hey, I resemble that comment!
I wanted to comment on the sleep thing. WTF is up with that, anyway? Man, I could have suffered from insomnia for a week, finally gotten to sleep, and if my W woke me up and said, "Do me", I'd gladly oblige. Meanwhile, she's too tired, or too stressed, or too hot, or too cold, or too itchy, or too ticklish, or too.....
HD
Thats the difference between us HDs and the LDs......... we would gladly give up sleep for a roll in the hay. Its not that important to them, but seems sleep is
Annette
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I wanted to comment on the sleep thing. WTF is up with that, anyway? Man, I could have suffered from insomnia for a week, finally gotten to sleep, and if my W woke me up and said, "Do me", I'd gladly oblige. Meanwhile, she's too tired, or too stressed, or too hot, or too cold, or too itchy, or too ticklish, or too.....
You are forgetting that the faze of the moon isn't correct they were stressed for 5 seconds during the day. The house isn't perfect. They don't have the car that they want. Their hair is a mess. and any number of things.
Lee
Guys, guys, guys, there's too much anger and resentment in your hearts to let the love shine out. Lose that anger and you may get more success.
SD - Not angry anymore - ALRIGHT!
Hey, I resent that. I am HD but if you come snuggling up on me after a hard day you may get punched. I drive a bus over some of the worst roads in the USA and after I have bounced 9 to 12 hours on my butt I am tired and sore. Yeah, I need some d--- sleep and I will be a lot happier about screwing around if I can get some sleep first. I need about 2 hours, just enough to let the muscles relax.
CeMar is just depressed and he is hurting. I know how it is to live with someone who is depressed and those anti-pills are worst than the disease. But depression left unchecked can kill you and I've made enough funerals to know that as a truth as well as a fact. Depression may not be contagious but living in that environment daily can affect and color how you yourself react to events. In other words, crazy sitch can make you crazy too. CeMar, go do something silly.
I think you are on to something about the missed signals and the misunderstood ones. I look deep in my H eyes trying to communicate sexy vibes and he thinks I'm mad about something. I thought by playing role games during sex that I was telling him I like having fun and can be adventurous he said I was being childish and he wanted a grown woman not some silly child playing games. His telling me to roll over and open my legs, after a day when he hadn't said a kind word to me, was too much like being scolded and punished. He thought, I would know that it was his way of apologizing. So I think we need to identify signals and help each other figure out what our mates are saying. Do you think same sex couples have this much trouble talking to each other?
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Do you think same sex couples have this much trouble talking to each other?
Interesting... the other night Leno told a joke about that very thing. The punch-line being that gay couples would have nothing to fight about - it'd be boring. As in "Hey, let's watch figure skating tonight." "Okay." "Hey, do you want to take in an opera tonight?" "Yeah, that'd be great!"
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I hope I won't sound fatuous if I point out that to know so much about yourself and your own motivations and hangups, and the trouble they're causing for you, and be willing to live with them instead of doing something about them is something you might want to think about...
I am seeing a sex therapist to work through all of this, yes.
Glad to hear it, Pam. I'm going to be VERY interested in any info you can give me on that, as I'm hoping W will see one also, but I don't really know much about them. I'm not worried about it, I just would like to know what kind of things they work on...
BTW, I am also learning MUCH about myself these days, most of it right here. I do agree, tho, I will probably be in therapy myself before too long...
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I wrote: I admit, when our R was "new" I masked my hangups so I guess you could call me a bait and switch.
When I met my H, I was at a low point in my life... as silly as that may sound considering I was only 21 at the time! Every relationship I'd been in went bad and I was afraid that I'd never meet the man of my dreams. I was scared, insecure and impatient. I wanted to be married before having children and I wanted to have my children before I turned thirty. I'm a bit of a plan freak, I like to map out my life to a fault. I'm begining to realize that I need to chill out and just live like everyone else. It must be part of being a survivor of sexual abuse.
I met my H through a telephone dating service. We both had ads in the singles looking for a monogamous relationship section and we instantly clicked when we first spoke. His voicemail style ad stated his height, weight, hair colour, etc. and that he was looking for someone to sweep off her feet. I couldn't resist that and left a message. We moved in together three months later and have been monogamous since. He proposed 2 years later and we got married 1.5 years after that. We had our first child two years later and then another two years later, our last child. Sounds perfect.
I never realized until about a month ago that I was kidding myself. I haven't been honest with my H nor myself. I've been living a fantasy; something I thought I wanted and needed. I'm now at the point where I'm ready to really wake up and get real. Why waste my H's life and happiness as well as mine? I've been selfish, controlling and dishonest for the past ten years. I don't want to go on for another ten, twenty, whatever. H deserves to meet someone who isn't going through the motions for the sake of saving face, for the kids, for security. I've been living in "quiet desperation" and trying to keep the peace as much as possible.
Following some of the threads on here has been heart breaking. Dave36 strikes me as such a loveable guy, but his latest posts have made me step back and really look at myself.
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Dave36 wrote: I'm now asking myself a very hard question...why do I love someone I'm completely opposite of. I set goals and achieve them. She has never set a goal, but whines about not achieving anything. Her kindness and niceness have made up for all of these things. She runs the house better than anyone I've ever met and she's a great mother. I should consider myself lucky for these good things...but I would trade most of these attributes in for a passionate love-life. At this point it is strictly out of duty as a father, peer pressure, fear of the uncertainty, guilt, lack of money to afford a D. In the WAW examples, the W nags, then stops, then the H thinks everything is great...then bam, the W leaves. I'm seeing this possibility because I think my "effort" is essentially the same as "nagging" because she is interpreting it as "pressure" to do something.
This aspect is killing me...I'm trying to reconnect with W only to find out that she's not someone I should be interested in.
This effort might have been a mistake. ...now I just want to unleash a holy hailstorm of angry words in her direction and have her feel the pain inside me.
I still just cant understand why a person wouldn't want more of that "tingly" feeling you get when you kiss and touch each other. Why deny it. What the F! Are you just plain stupid?
I'm sorry to be such a bummer on here when I was trying so hard to be a good wife, but I just can't do it. I give up.
{Aquarian},
You know better than any LD what you have to do. You've read the books, been on this forum and posted 228 messages and that is enough theory. It's time to put it into practice. Bite the bullet, take Michele's advice and "JUST DO IT". We all love you to bits Aquarian and desperately want you to find your way. Once you are "Just doing it" bring all your worries here and me and the 'dog, CeMar, Dave36, Corri, Tim47 and everyone will be here to help you.
SD xxx
{{{{{Aquarian}}}}}}
Hey, are you absolutely certain you aren't kidding yourself now?? These dark feelings can be brought on by depression, or any number of things. Believe me, I KNOW how hard it can be to carry on when it seems like things are hopeless, but you MUST not give up!
Questions: Do you love H? Does he love you?
"He'd be better off without me" is a dangerous conceit. Yes, things may not be a bed of roses at the moment (understatement of the CENTURY), but KEEP TRYING!! Go and read in the Divorce Remedy forum - read the first chapter (I bet you even have the book, don't you?) Do you REALLY think that giving up will solve the problem? Are you SURE there's nothing left to try?
You seem really motivated to improve things, at least you did up until this post. I always felt you really had things together. Please tell me you're just in a funk!
Well this is the second time that I've posted and I'm having a hard time with this one. You see my wife feels like I would be happier with someone else and she feels like she has been not true to herself. She made reference to living in "Quiet desperation" trying to make it all work for the kids sake, security or due to finances. Our mariage has been missing something for a long time that both of us seem to be missing (passion, communication, tenderness, quality time together). Because our sexlife is suffering, the focus seems to be on this which maybe too soon and too fast. We need to go back to the basics. I'm HD and W is LD, I really thought that my top love language was pyshical, but I've been giving it alot of thought and now sure that WOA is number one. You see, I cherish the little gestures like a soft carress, a rub on the back after a hard day at work, a warm heart felt embrace. As an HD, if the physical is only sexual and not really mutual, that is not fullfilling, but if it is pysical was mutual and passionate inside and outside the bedroom them that would be fullfilling. I Love my wife with all my heart and soul, my happiness comes from her so it's been hard lately for both of us. I wrote my wife a letter not too long ago saying that I would do whatever it takes and that we would climb this mountain together. I guess I should have also told her that there isn't a rush as I'm willing and wanting a life time of happiness not a few quick moments. So I'm here to ask you "Aquarian" will you climb this mountain with me to happiness? To all the other members of the board like HD, SD, Corri, any suggestions that might help me try to better understand my wife.
Aquarian I LOVE YOU!
ConfusedH
Pam,
Don't give up now!! You're just having a down day. Everyone has that and you have been doing so well. Don't read too much into what Dave36 says. He was just venting. This is our ranting place so don't be too disheartened by what you read. I am sure he loves his wife dearly or he would not be here trying so hard.
Step back and ease off some of that pressure of yourself. What matters most is that you are trying. As you know, most HD spouses we have around here are in total denial and therefore not even trying. We'd all give anything to have our Hs/Ws just TRY!
You said "I'm trying so hard to be a good wife but I just can't do it."
Don't be so hard on yourself. Although this is an SSM forum and discussions are focussed on this area, I am sure you know deep down that being a good wife is so much more than just working on this area of your life. And we all know that you are working hard in trying to understand your Hs POV, in trying to communicate with him, in understanding his LL and trying to fulfill those. Intimacy is an an important area to work on but then so are being a good companion, confidant, good mother, I could go on and on. So don't be dishearted and keep up your good work.
LH
I knew who you were before I got to the third line of your message.
The message from Pam sounded so different from the messages I've been reading over the past couple of months (after her initial problem with you being naughty after she went to sleep). She has been so upbeat. Suddenly, she's talking about leaving. WTF? You guys must've had a fight, and that's none of my business, but the two of you seem to have come so far in just a couple of months.
Pam, chill out. Don't do anything rash. Remember that one of the only things within your control is your attitude and the reactions you have to what happens around you. You can choose to see everything as bad or dark, or you can choose to see everything as a lesson from which to learn. This guy obviously loves you. It took him a lot of courage to come on here, in the middle of a bunch of Pam supporters, and admit who he was. I give him big gobs of credit. In fact, since I am unable to, could you give him a big sloppy kiss from Hairdog?
Mr. Pam (I'm not going to call you "confused H" because, face it, we're ALL confused), stick with her. The biggest virtue we HDs can have is patience. Treat her with respect and loving kindness. Be confident. Take a shower at least once a week whether you need it or not. How can she resist you?
With {{{{}}}}} to both of you,
Hairdog
Confusedh:
What you've said means a lot. I'm glad to see you're supportive of Pam, because I was worried that the reason she was giving up had to do with a non-supportive or demanding spouse. I'm glad also to see that you've been lurking here, as that is a great way to truly understand her. I wonder how many of our spouses are lurking here, reading our posts? It would be good, I think, if there were more. Maybe the thing you both need to work on more than anything at this point is the issue of trust. If she's afraid you can't "control yourself" (re the sleep-attack thing) she may not be able to be responsive. Maybe she feels she's doing all the work, and needs more of a committment from you to working on the real issues. I don't know...
Not to tout "yet another book", but yesterday W showed me a book she bought a while ago (which I knew nothing about!) by Dr. Phil, called "Relationship Rescue". Yeah, I know, Dr. Phil is sort of like the McDonalds of psychology at the moment, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have something meaningful to say at least once in a while. Also, as good as Michele's books are, they can't be the ONLY resource we make use of. Anyway, I had a look at Dr. Phil's book and it looks like a GOOD one. One section deals with "Exploding the 10 myths of a great marriage". One of those myths is "Sex has nothing to do with a great marriage" (or is it, "A great marriage has nothing to do with sex"?). Anyway, I naturally read what he had to say about that myth, and found it very wise and profound. One thing he said was that when a couple has a good sex life together, that issue might rate as a 3 or 4 on the scale of Importance in the relationship, but when the sex life is suffering, it becomes a 9 or 10 in importance. It becomes the main focus of the relationship, for at least one of the partners. I know that's abundantly true in my case. I didn't read any further than that, but I'm looking forward to reading that entire book - it may be of help.
I'm not sure at this point what can be done about it, as you can tell from reading my other posts. However, I do know that if Pam does truly Give Up, it will leave me and a lot of others with a LOT less hope for our own situations. If someone as committed and motivated as Pam gives up, what hope is there? That would be a sad day indeed.
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However, I do know that if Pam does truly Give Up, it will leave me and a lot of others with a LOT less hope for our own situations. If someone as committed and motivated as Pam gives up, what hope is there? That would be a sad day indeed.
Well now, Tim, let's not put any more pressure on Pam than she already has.
Pam: Just remember: WWCD. What Would Corri Do?
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I wrote: I was scared, insecure and impatient. ...His voicemail style ad stated his height, weight, hair colour, etc. and that he was looking for someone to sweep off her feet. I haven't been honest with my H nor myself. I've been living a fantasy; something I thought I wanted and needed. Why waste my H's life and happiness as well as mine? H deserves to meet someone who isn't going through the motions for the sake of saving face, for the kids, for security.
How do you tell your H that you need a little romance to feel special, wanted, needed, longed for? How do you keep telling him after he hasn't heard you? How do you tell him when you're finally at the point where you don't even want it anymore? My first birthday with him, I received a card and a pack of cigarettes. I was in shock. I was in love with him, so I tried to break it to him gently how disappointed I was. He seemed to feel so bad about it that I felt bad for not being happy with what I got and opening my mouth. As far as I can tell, this has been an ongoing pattern that we both have been dealing with over the years. I kept waiting for him to "sweep me off my feet". I would rush right home after work excited to see him and spend the evening together, but I never got the sense that he felt the same way.
I had to ask him to delete his xgirlfriend's and her parents' phone numbers out of his speed dial after living with him for at least a month. I remember feeling jealous and sad when I happened upon an old receipt for a dozen long stemmed roses for his girlfriend's birthday, before we met. I felt like I was second best and that he wished things had worked out between them. I found a photo album which consisted of only photos of her. I asked him if he could throw them away and he did. Then, he asked me to throw away my photos of a past boyfriend and I couldn't even though I agreed that it would only be fair. The difference to me was that my photo album was a timeline of events, not just a boyfriend. His was just of her!
He always assured me that he loved me, but I had doubts in the back of my mind. I certainly wasn't feeling swept. In fact, the only "romance" I received was seemingly when he was horny. I remember telling him when we were dating that sex wasn't everything to me, and he agreed saying he felt the same way. I also remember him pushing for us to have sex and feeling pressured. He told me his feelings get stronger when he's in a sexual relationship. I decided to take my chances and see if his feelings would get stronger, but I don't really remember any significant change. I was the first to say "I love you" and was completely devestated when he couldn't respond... for months.
I fell out of love with him when I was going to a night class just before he proposed. I would go there right after work and wouldn't get home until 11pm. Every night, I'd pray that he'd be up waiting for me... to greet me with a hug and kiss. Every night, I'd get home and he'd be snoring logs in bed. It hurt. I remember wondering how long it would take for him to find out that something had happened to me. Would he be woken by a phone call? Would he find out when he woke up to my not being there in the morning? I felt taken for granted and used.
Enough of the past. That was just the beginning, and it doesn't get much more romantic. Did I have a warped sense of what romance is? I don't think so. Am I needy? I don't think so, I'm quite independent. I married him because I thought I would be foolish to pass on the chance of becoming a wife and mother. I thought time would make him more receptive to my needs and that I would grow to accept him more and more each day. Here we are, about to celebrate 10 years this August, and I'm tired of hoping that tomorrow will be better. I'm tired of having to worry about his feelings. I'm tired of not being myself. I know marriage is work and compromising, I truly do. I just don't want to do it anymore. I was fooling myself to think I could get over the fact that he was disrespecting me and hurting me (mentally) by trying to be sexual with me. I wanted to prove to myself and to him that I could and I think I did a pretty good job of it, but it wasn't making me happy.
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SD wrote: Bite the bullet, take Michele's advice and "JUST DO IT". We all love you to bits Aquarian and desperately want you to find your way. Once you are "Just doing it" bring all your worries here and me and the 'dog, CeMar, Dave36, Corri, Tim47 and everyone will be here to help you.
That's what I was doing SD and believe me, I've loved the suggestions, advice and support I've received on here. You've all been so helpful and caring. I truly appreciate every one of you and wish like hell that you reach that happy medium with your spouses.
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Tim47 wrote: Do you love H? Does he love you? Do you REALLY think that giving up will solve the problem? Are you SURE there's nothing left to try? Please tell me you're just in a funk!
Yes, I love him and he loves me. Am I in love with him? No. I haven't been for our entire marriage. That's the problem, I don't want to try anything anymore. I never should have gotten married in the first place. I honestly believe that H has a chance to go on and meet someone that will fully love him and want to grow old with him. The thought of us being empty nesters scares the heck out of me. We have little in common. I want him to find someone more compatible. I don't care if I ever meet anyone. I just want to raise my kids the best I can and finally be myself. Is this considered a MLC? I don't think so. This is me being real and standing up for what I think is right. I love my H enough to set him free. I don't love him enough to hold onto him and overcome our obstacles. Bash me if you want to. I can take it.
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My H wrote: Well this is the second time that I've posted and I'm having a hard time with this one.
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I wrote: My mother always scolded me for masturbating as a child and made a big deal about it. She's got religious/moral issues against it. I ignored her and was just very sneaky growing up. I've always enjoyed masturbating, but while I was LD, I noticed that I didn't feel any urge to masturbate. I'd probably go a few months before it would even enter my mind. Now that I'm "better", I seem to want to masturbate at least *once* every other day... strange huh?
This post angered him. We had a lengthy discussion about it as he thought I didn't MB. Low and behold he finds out that I do and somehow that's offensive.
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I wrote:These last few posts are reminding me of a discussion (argument actually) that my H and I had after he saw my post in this thread. He was upset to learn that I actually masturbate! He had no idea and was hurt that I pleasure myself. I tried to explain to him that I do it for the release, not the orgasm... orgasms are with him. (Oh and I wasn't just saying that! It's true)
He wasn't really comforted by that. I grew up having to secretly masturbate, so naturally it is a private thing for me still. He's upset that I don't want him to watch.
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H wrote: My W has a vibrator, she had it before I met her. W's xb gave it to her, so I've known for a while. I guess for me being HD and W was LD/ND for alot of years and to find out from reading it in a post that she would MB rather than ML to me kinda hurt Now that her SD has increased, so has the frequency of her MBing, and that's OK with me and I'm not mad at her for it. I also would enjoy to watch and possibly have it trun into us ML as there is very little variety these days. But even tho, it's her call and if W wants to share that part of her with me then Grreaat! But if not I respect that.
How does me masturbating translate into prefering it to ML especially when I had just spelled out that it's a release and not an "orgasm"? I also told him years ago, that I used the vibrator once and that I prefer my hand. I guess he wasn't listening.
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H wrote: Our mariage has been missing something for a long time that both of us seem to be missing (passion, communication, tenderness, quality time together).
This is true. I can't help but think that we never really had these in the beginning though. We didn't even ML on our honeymoon.
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HD wrote: You can choose to see everything as a lesson from which to learn. This guy obviously loves you. It took him a lot of courage to come on here and admit who he was. I give him big gobs of credit. In fact, since I am unable to, could you give him a big sloppy kiss from Hairdog?
Yes, it did take courage and I give him credit. I've been giving him credit all along. I told my therapist the other day that I'm tired of not doing the right thing, saying the right thing. I just want to be me.
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HD wrote: Pam: Just remember: WWCD. What Would Corri Do?
WWCD? Hard to say. I think she was wiser than me. She probably didn't marry the first guy to propose to her! She probably married for the right reasons; not out of fear of being alone. I can't say what she would do in my shoes.
Pam, thank you for laying it all out like that... I had no idea. No doubt it sucks for everyone concerned, but at some point everyone has to decide if there is really any reason to keep trying. For everyone that choice is different. I guess I'm just trying to say... whatever choice you make, I understand - not that my understanding needs to mean anything to anyone, but thank you for giving me the chance to understand.
I'm at a loss for words right now.
ConfusedH
Stay with it, CH. It sounds like both of you are really hurting.
I'm just trying to figure out where all this is coming from. Did CH try to do something to you while you were sleeping last night? Did your C tell you to move on? Why are you so pissed off, Pam?
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I honestly believe that H has a chance to go on and meet someone that will fully love him and want to grow old with him.
This is not what I'd expect from you, Pam. This is the old cop-out language, designed to make you look like you're being magnanimous. Well, if you set it free, and it flies back to you, then isn't it your responsibility to love it and nurture it?
And what about the kids?
You guys are tearing me up today.
Pam,
I hope this comes off the right way. I think you have a skewed idea of what marriage is all about.
Please don't think that your situation is unique or special in any way. We ALL think that about our spouses and usually quite often. I think, What drew us to each other in the first place? What was I thinking? I got married for the wrong reasons? And my personal favorite, H didn't marry me cause he wanted to; he just did it cause I told him that's what we would do. He didn't CHOOSE me.
We all have these demons and they don't make a whit of difference in the long run.
I think that you have an idealized notion of what marriage is about and how people feel when they are in it. Believe me, I would love for my H to be romantic but it is not in his makeup so if I want it, I have to suggest ways that he can do it and then "help" him follow through with it. Yes it sucks but I have to accept that he is a MAN who is fallible and has limitations. He is not a god who will never make a mistake or have shortcomings.
This whole "swept off your feet" thing...hmm, I don't know about that. It puts a LOT of the burden on him to make you feel a certain way. That is not real life. YOU are responsible for your own happiness and he is responsible for sharing that with you. He does not determine whether you are a happy person. You do.
By continually coming back to the swept off your feet stuff, you know that you have him where you want him. He will fail you in this endeavor and then you are justified in not doing the hard work of repairing your sexual relationship.
That is not to say that he doesn't have any responsibilities to meet this need of yours; he does. But treating someone special and "sweeping them off their feet" are two different things. You are raising the bar SO HIGH that he has no hopes of ever reaching it.
Is that how you feel in regards to your sex life? That the bar is so high that you can't get there? Do you feel that he will only be satisfied with perfection?
Oh and one other thing. There are many days (usually when I'm in a down mood) that I think that I don't love my husband. Actually a better way to put it is taht I really don't know WHY I am in love with him. By all accounts, I shouldn't be. We share no hobbies or nothing in common. We have had to overcome huge hurdles in our marriage. But the fact remains that I do love him. I want a life with him, even if it's difficult, rather than take my chances with someone else.
I look at these happily married old folks and, Pam, not for one second do I fool myself into thinking that they did not have issues (even big ones) like I do. They just persevered. My girlfriends mother once told me that marriage is like an ocean wave--sometimes it's up and you are madly in love, sometimes it's down and you are not really sure what you're doing with that person.
Is it possible that you are just on a down wave?
Hope your day got better and that you have a good night with CH.
Honey
Pam,
I have to whole heartedly second what honeypot is saying. She's right on and if you think for one second "ya, ya, I know m isn't supposed to always be perfect" take a look around (not just this forum) look at the divorce busting and divorce remedy books...read the quotes in the book. waw's and wah's all seem to have the same things to say (some of wich you are saying). Just take a look, I believe the first chapters are on this site.
what have you got to loose?
oh and in defense of ch, my h is ld doesn't want sex much more than once a month...if I were to discover that he's been masturbaiting a few times a week while rejecting me I'd be insulted, hurt and humilitated.
LL
I also wanted to say, that CH's first post on the Sexual Issues board was in reply to some whacko named Spooley, who taperecorded his wife using her vibrator, played it for her daughter, and was doing this to prove that she was lying to him about NOT masturbating. CH took him to task, as we all did.
Just wanted you to know that there are some real weirdos out there, and CH doesn't seem to be one.
{{{{{{{Aquarian}}}}}}}}} and {{{{{{{CH}}}}}}},
I understand, Aquarian. Sounds like you have alot going on inside you right now. Perhaps you were hoping sex was going to be the magic pill that would make it all better?
I'm asking. I'm not assuming. The issues you bring up are big and complex. Who wouldn't want/hope for a simple solution? But, while TSSM is a very good hammer, everything is not necessarily a nail.
I think you need to talk with someone in person and in depth about everything that is going on inside you, about more than sex or even your relationship with your H. What you're writing about seems like more than those two things.
Give some serious thought to making that person your H. Let
him be your confidant. He may surprise you at how interested he is. Can you trust him enough to really let him in? Maybe it's risky, but give him a chance to show you he can provide the emotional support you need right now. Maybe you need this even more than romance?
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...and finally be myself.
I was originally going to ask you to say more about this, but what if you talk to your H about it instead? Seems like a pretty important issue to deal with.
Best, MPT
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HD wrote: I'm just trying to figure out where all this is coming from. Did CH try to do something to you while you were sleeping last night? Did your C tell you to move on? Why are you so pissed off, Pam?
This is the old cop-out language, designed to make you look like you're being magnanimous. Well, if you set it free, and it flies back to you, then isn't it your responsibility to love it and nurture it?
And what about the kids?
You guys are tearing me up today.
H has been nothing but a great guy. Nothing has "happened" and my therapist did not tell me to move on. I am not "so pissed off". I simply don't want my H to be a member of the SSM "team". I'm tired of trying so hard to be a passionate wife.
I guess I'm a cop out. I'm not trying to be magnanimous, but I don't even know exactly what that word means without looking it up! I'm not trying to be anything but honest and real. We're both young enough to find true happiness. H asked me if there was one thing that could be different tomorrow, what would I want it to be. I don't know.
We both love our kids so much and want the best for them. What that is, right now, I have no clue. I hate to break up our family, but I strongly feel that as long as both parents love the children and can respect one another, that they will be fine.
I'm sorry, again, for being such a bummer.
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HP wrote: I think you have a skewed idea of what marriage is all about. H didn't marry me cause he wanted to; he just did it cause I told him that's what we would do. He didn't CHOOSE me. I think that you have an idealized notion of what marriage is about and how people feel when they are in it.
I don't think so, but perhaps I do. H happened to be the first man to propose to me, but I know that he CHOSE me. He took so long to say "I love you" because he wanted to be sure that he did. That was why I wanted to be married before having kids. I wanted to marry a man that loved me, rather than marry me out of any obligation.
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HP wrote: My girlfriends mother once told me that marriage is like an ocean wave--sometimes it's up and you are madly in love, sometimes it's down and you are not really sure what you're doing with that person. Is it possible that you are just on a down wave?
I've never been madly in love. This isn't a down wave.
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LL wrote: oh and in defense of ch, my h is ld doesn't want sex much more than once a month...if I were to discover that he's been masturbaiting a few times a week while rejecting me I'd be insulted, hurt and humilitated.
I wasn't masturbating when I was LD and rejecting him. I was masturbating when I was HD, initiating and never rejecting.
valuable info
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I've never been madly in love. This isn't a down wave.
what is MADLY in love?
my h during our seperation (initiated by him) said to me that he never was in love with me, never had those feelings for me that "it" was never there and he whole heartedly believed it...I started to believe it too...it's easy to see things in black and white when you get stuck. Eventually h came home and admitted that he was wrong about not having ever had those feelings for me...of course I still doubted it...doubted it for a long time until just a month or so ago when I was cleaning out my closet and came upon a box of old cards from him to me...nothing extraordianry but there was something about them..the occassinal words he'd written that reminded me and him (when I showed them to him) that he did indeed have those feelings once and on occassion still does.
Again I'll ask you, what is MADLY in love?
is there a possibility that someone might just be MADLY inlove with another if upon recieving a gift that didn't meet their expectations was still happy to be with them?
Neither life nor love are easy and they get even harder when you try to combine the two, if you don't think that's true take a look around this bb...see what's going on in the other forums. Read divorce busting and/or divorce remedy not because you want to save your m but because there is a vast amount of basic information hiding in them.
I do wish you happiness and hope you choose the right path to get there.
LL
Aquarian and CH.
Once the butterflies and giggles are all gone, love becomes a choice.
I too would really like to find myself immersed in a relationship where "good stuff" flows through it like a river. Great dream, but it isn't going to happen. Not with my wife, not with anyone else.
Sure, there will be/have been good times and bad, good feelings and bad.
I want to remind you about something you probably already know - feelings, for the most part, are untrustworthy. As intense as they can be, they are certainly NOT a substantial criteria to base the termination of a relationship on. I highly recommend as others here have, that you back up, calm down, and talk to each other. You are unlikely to find the answer to your problems in a separation. Believe me, if CH was abusive and mean, I would be cheering you on to getting some distance between the two of you.
As for masturbating and vibrators, maybe both of you need to realize that there is a lot of potential for fun and good healthy adult interaction BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU in those two words.
When I was 19 years old, my parents called and wanted me to come home to talk to them. I arrived and sat at the kitchen table with them. My father started telling me that my mother wanted to leave him. I talked to both of them for a while. Exasperated, my father said "Son, tell her she can't do this!" One look at my mother told me that she had made up her mind. I knew then that she was wrong, but I didn't try to change her mind, I didn't think she would listen.
Before she died a couple years back, she told me how many times she had wished she had stayed with my father. She married 7 times after she divorced my dad. She died alone, a couple of years after her last failed marriage. I still wish I had tried to change her mind at the kitchen table long ago.
You folks think long and hard about what you are doing.
-NOPkins-
NOPkins:
He has a couple right in front of him, with big problems, and he looked right at them and said that if they divorce to try and find a "Better" mate, that their second marriage would have only a 30% chance of success. It is almost always better to work on your marriage then give it up.
Pam,
Are you still lurking here? Do keep us updated as our thoughts are with you and your family.
LH
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LostLove wrote" What is MADLY in love? Is there a possibility that someone might just be MADLY inlove with another if upon recieving a gift that didn't meet their expectations was still happy to be with them?
For me, "madly" in love is the same as "in love". It's knowing that even when or if someone doesn't quite get something right it's still ok. It's easy to overlook it and see that it was the thought that counts. It's accepting someone for who they are, as they are and embracing that. Feeling Madly in love is wanting to put a little extra effort into trying to make the other person feel appreciated and loved. It's wanting to share your time with them and wanting to see them smile. It's longing for the next time you can touch eachother, even if it's just a hug. It's not wanting to go to bed without saying goodnight and kissing. It's looking forward to seeing that person at the end of the day.
Thank you NOPkins for your thoughts. We've been doing alot of talking.
LuvHubby, yes, I am still lurking about, but H has mentioned the board as a negative aspect to my parents. I'm not sure why he's so threatened by a group of "strangers", but he has told me that he will not be posting anymore. I on the other hand, need to communicate my thoughts to my friends and to as many people who care as possible. Not that everyone here cares, but whoever reads and chooses to follow along, you know?
It's been a tense couple of days. H prepared a bubble bath for me, all candlelit, complete with wine this evening. I'm having a very difficult time. He's been validating quite a bit and seems willing to jump through hoops for me, and it's killing me. I want to be his best friend or as close a friend as possible, but no more than that. I know in my heart that no matter what he does, I'll never be able to truly be his lover again. It's gone. It's been gone since 1997. As painful as it is to say that, I know it to be true. I'm sorry.
We watched a movie lastnight, and something struck me afterwards. I cry in almost every romantic story where the man ends up winning the woman's heart. I've always been a bit sappy that way!
I realized lastnight that part of why I cry is because I've never really had that. Sure, I thought I had it, but it's hard to imagine that a man who wins your heart would betray you while you're sleeping soundly in the security of his presence. It's also hard to imagine that such a man could vow not to repeat such a betrayal and then do it all over again one week later. I know many do not agree with my perspective on that, including my own father, but it's still a scar nonetheless and it hasn't healed yet.
I'm honestly not setting out to make H a monster, even if it appears that way. I married him in spite of this, hoping that time and effort might heal and renew my love for him. I then hoped that having his children would help, not to mention how badly I wanted to be a mom. We'll be married for 6 years this August... if I haven't healed by now, doesn't it just make sense that I won't? What I mean is, I don't think it's realistic anymore to hope and try to undo
our past. Geez, I need to see my therapist... I must sound crazy.
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I want to be his best friend or as close a friend as possible, but no more than that. I know in my heart that no matter what he does, I'll never be able to truly be his lover again. It's gone. It's been gone since 1997. so now your admitting that it was once there? just want to be clear because you earlier said it was, then said it had never been and are now again saying with certainty that it ended at a certain point so therefore WAS there at one time. So if we are clear on that, I'd like to ask if when you did feel "madly inlove" or "in love" with h, did you think that feeling would ever go away? And if we assume that you did feel that way at one time why can't we assume that with a little bit of effort (even if most is on h's part to begin with (he seems willing to jump through hoops after all) those feelings could come back again. As painful as it is to say that, why is it painful? I know it to be true. I'm sorry. who are you sorry for?
Aquarian,
I want you to know though you may start to think of me as some overly pro marriage pain in the butt, I do understand how you feel...but I also know that things are not always what they seem.
Not that I think it an end all be all marriage saving bullet but I urge you to take a look at the divorce remedy/divorce busting books, even if you only look at what is available on this site. the divorce remedy first chapter
LL
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We watched a movie lastnight, and something struck me afterwards. I cry in almost every romantic story where the man ends up winning the woman's heart. don't we all? aren't we supposed to? isn't that why they call it romance? I've always been a bit sappy that way! I realized lastnight that part of why I cry is because I've never really had that. most of us never really had that..that's why they are called movies and not realities. Michelle has a section called "the media myth" in divorce remedy that discusses some of this. Sure, I thought I had it, but it's hard to imagine that a man who wins your heart would betray you while you're sleeping soundly in the security of his presence. It's also hard to imagine that such a man could vow not to repeat such a betrayal and then do it all over again one week later. the severity of each persons violation depends upon the person viloated. I never thought my h would have an a or leave me..but he did...I'm working at getting over it..but I understand your feelings of his continuing to do it...so the last violation was the last straw? I know many do not agree with my perspective on that, including my own father, but it's still a scar nonetheless and it hasn't healed yet. does the sentimetn "hasn't healed yet." indicate a small ray of hope that you might be able to forgive? provided of course the violation does not ever occur again.
I'm honestly not setting out to make H a monster, even if it appears that way. I married him in spite of this, hoping that time and effort might heal and renew my love for him. I then hoped that having his children would help, not to mention how badly I wanted to be a mom. We'll be married for 6 years this August... if I haven't healed by now, doesn't it just make sense that I won't? doctors often assume that a person who's been in a coma past a certain point will not come out of it...but they do. What I mean is, I don't think it's realistic anymore to hope and try to undo our past. I understand that..so it's easier to undo the future right? Geez, I need to see my therapist... I must sound crazy. I've been around this site long enough and dealt with enough people to know that you don't sound crazy at all. In fact you sound pretty damn normal for someone who's been hurting for a long time and just can't take it anymore. Thing is I don't think you realize the pill (divorce) you are considering taking isn't going to end your pain and infact may only serve to cause you more.
LL
Aquarian:
All marriages go through some really dark times. But they don't have to stay there. Heck, some couples have built really good marriages after infedility, so if they can do it, so can the rest of us. It takes forgiveness, and a couple that REALLY wants to work together to create a great marriage. Anyone can do it provided they set their minds to it 150%. It will take time, but never give up hope! Possibly the best part, is the journey you will take together in trying to get there. That is all any of us can ask for, is to make the journey together.
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LL wrote: I'd like to ask if when you did feel "in love" with h, did you think that feeling would ever go away? And if we assume that you did feel that way at one time why can't we assume that with a little bit of effort (even if most is on h's part to begin with (he seems willing to jump through hoops after all) those feelings could come back again. As painful as it is to say that, why is it painful? I know it to be true. I'm sorry. who are you sorry for?
I knew that "in love" feeling would go away. I married him when I had already fallen out of love with him, but I went ahead because I figured it had to be a matter of time before I'd fall back in love. I figured I would heal over time. I was apologizing to my H.
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LL wrote: I understand your feelings of his continuing to do it...so the last violation was the last straw? does the sentiment "hasn't healed yet." indicate a small ray of hope that you might be able to forgive? provided of course the violation does not ever occur again.
He hasn't done it since December and I believe it must have been the last straw. That led me to this web site... looking for hope; looking for support; answers. I "forgave" my H years ago. I would not have married him if I hadn't forgiven him or if I felt that he had intentionally done anything to hurt me. I knew he didn't mean to hurt me, and that is why I chose to overlook and block it out for so many years. That is why it was so easy for me to internalise it and claim it as my problem.
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CeMar wrote: It takes forgiveness, and a couple that REALLY wants to work together to create a great marriage. Anyone can do it provided they set their minds to it 150%.
Agreed CeMar. Problem is, I was working on it 80% and H didn't realize he was only working 45%, or so, until the other day. He hadn't heard my pleas for help. He hadn't heard my love for him. He didn't realize that he was trying to keep me in his pocket and control me. He hadn't heard that he was pushing me away. He thought my lack of libido was something he had to correct with sexual stimulas rather than looking at the big picture, including himself.
Aquarian:
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I was working on it 80% and H didn't realize he was only working 45%, or so, until the other day. He hadn't heard my pleas for help. He hadn't heard my love for him. He didn't realize that he was trying to keep me in his pocket and control me. He hadn't heard that he was pushing me away. He thought my lack of libido was something he had to correct with sexual stimulas rather than looking at the big picture, including himself.
What you said above is NORMAL. Us HD guys will automatically keep going down cheeseless tunnels of sex trying to turn you LD ladies on. Heck, until I started reading books, I had no real clue as to how women think, and it still is hard for me to understand. You just now are starting to get to the point where both of you might be ready to move forward into a marriage where yo get far closer together and will team up to tackle the problems you have. Stay the course, you have the ship turned in the right direction!
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CeMar wrote: Us HD guys will automatically keep going down cheeseless tunnels of sex trying to turn you LD ladies on.
I'm really tired of this. I'm not an LD lady. I desire and enjoy sex, which I was able to prove to myself the past few months. Our relationships can't be stereotyped into HD/LD/ND categories! It's also dangerous to "automatically keep going down cheeseless tunnels of sex" because it's a total TURN OFF.
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It's also dangerous to "automatically keep going down cheeseless tunnels of sex" because it's a total TURN OFF.
Agreed. See my post below regarding sexual aversion.
I would like to start off by saying thank you for all of your support, but most of all I would like to publicly thank my wife (Aquarian).
Since I have discovered that my wife was posting on this board, I began reading her posts and was devastated by some of them. I told her that I would like her to communicate her feelings with me first instead of reading them for the first time like everyone else, but it continued. I backed off that request as I was finding this to be her true feelings and felt it was more important to hear what her true feelings were rather than have her close up again, as one of our main issues was communicating.
You see, for the past three months I thought that we were making very good progress. Reading the SSM book was great, as I was starting to feel a connection again. When W began initiating, and ML more often, I took that as everything is going to be fine and I was getting on the right track with what I needed to do to validate her, and she was working through what she needed to.
Last week's post was the hardest thing that I have ever had to deal with. My first reaction to this was utter shock, total devastation, confusion, very alone and helplessness. I spent the next few days crying and confused as I didn’t understand why this was happening. In the last 3 months everything seemed to be getting better. I was so devastated that it physically was making me sick.
For the first time in a very long time I finally heard myself talking and until I started to hear myself I couldn’t her. Although my eyes were blurry from all of the tears I began to see what my wife has been trying to say all of these years. Over time when she would try to tell me anything that infringed on the safety net I would talk her out of what she was saying, out of my own fears until she gave in to my feelings and needs and continued to pretend that everything was OK. The more I cried the more it became clearer. I made a realisation that I haven’t been true to who I was and in fact lost touch with who I truly am.
I am beginning to see our relationship and marriage through her eyes and I am beginning to understand how she must have felt and feel the way in which she does. I have been so focusing on only one aspect of our marriage that I lost touch with the rest of it not noticing this wasn’t the issue to begin with. I may be wrong but believe that when she says “she doesn’t want this marriage” she doesn’t want to continue to try and save what our marriage has become.
For those of you who have been following LDWife/Aquarian's threads, you have a picture of our situation. There may be a loss of intimacy in the bedroom but that is not due to HD/LD/ND in our marriage. I realise that there is a loss of desire to want to be close and intimate due to what is happening outside the bedroom. I know that my wife wants to find herself, find her individuality as a person and get back to being true to herself. I also now can see how the pressures of a marriage can be too demanding to allow this to happen and the need for space is needed.
Just as my wife, I too don’t want what our marriage has become, and feel I need to find myself and be true to myself again. I do feel like we have turned the corner to true happiness, but that must begin with both of us being true to ourselves so we can be true to one another.
I don’t feel anger, guilt, but I do feel remorse for the hurt and pain that I have caused her. I need to learn how to forgive myself for this. I feel humbled and empowered to borrow some of the courage and strength that my wife has shown to allow me to be strong.
I need to take a break for now but do have more I’d like to share.
ConfusedH
ConfusedH,
First, I'm humbled at the thought of being the first to reply to this. But wow, that was extremely relevant. Thanks for coming here and giving us a different perspective on a situation we were already familiar with. You have made the same realizations that I have made and it shakes the earth when you see the marriage through the eyes of your spouse. I look forward to hearing how you guys do. Thank you.
CH:
Your courage continues to amaze me. Your insights into your marriage and the stages it has gone through, the denial, the beginning of both of you admitting that it is not the marriage you had hoped it would be, and perhaps a glimmer of hope that you two can make it a great marriage, provides hope for me, too.
I can understand your ambivalence with Aquarian coming here and sharing her views with us. We are just anonymous strangers. But sometimes it's easier to trust those who you don't see, than to trust those people who are close to you. (Hmmm, kinda sounds like religion. Maybe I should change my name to Hairgod. Sorry
)
We are hear, and I think I speak for all when I say we will do whatever we can to provide support for both of you to make it through this. We hope you come out the other end happy and healthy and married.
Hairdog
Thanks for the support AlantaDave & Hairgod
humor is a great tool, Thanks for yours when I have none. On that note. I wake-up in the morrning not knowing what the day will hold for me, I'm afraid but know that I must face what ever it is. I had a few days off work to help me re-focus but I never would have guess I'd be where I am today. I was very apprehensive to start the day and ended up haveing a incredible day. I will post some more but I would like to share it with my wife first. I will be changing my user name to reflect this day.
ConfusedH
The fact that BOTH of you recognize the problem and feel sorrow for the other in that recognition shows huge promise for a happy outcome.
Please both of you put the past where it belongs...in the past...make tommorow a new day and crack open your copies of dr if you have them and if you don't go buy them...they'll be worth the spare change.
Work together in finding yourselves.
There is no reason you cannot each re-discover who you are and also find again that happines you once sought in eachother. D is not the answer...it is but a temporary fix that only leads to more pain.
LL
OMG, It's Pam and Glenn. Had I known that, I would have told you two to go your separate ways long ago.
Just kiddin'...don't know you from Adam and/or Eve. Glad you're not confused anymore. Wish I could say the same about myself.
I am still a bit confused but each day does get better for me. I changed my user name as to reflect a new begining for me and to stay true to myself and stop hidding. I had forgotten that in a marriage there are times when you need to be that best friend and the other a husband. Today was not so good
I worrie about Pam as she has been fairly quiet. I guess that is to be expected. I hope she and I have a better day tommorow.
Glenn
Well, it's been a while since I last posted, so here I am. I pop on to check up on everyone and find it so depressing, so, I have been forcing myself to limit my reading. I recently finished reading Dr. Laura's new book on "The Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands", and recommend it to any woman. I didn't really learn anything from it, but it was a good read nonetheless. You need not be a Dr. Laura fan to enjoy it, IMHO.
I'm now reading "I Know I'm in There Somewhere" by Helene G. Brenner. It's a self acceptance/guide to finding your inner voice.
It's been a stressful few weeks around our household. Glenn has been sleeping in our spare bedroom which has helped me, but I feel like I should be the one in the spare room. The only reason why it's not me is because our DS1.5 wakes up and crawls in to snuggle with me and would panic if I wasn't there. Glenn was in overdrive being the perfect husband and trying like hell to meet my needs; he was romancing me with flowers, candlelit dinner, love emails, jumping on any displays of happiness as progress. I was feeling overwhelmed and voiced that in our therapy session on Friday. The questions and flow of the session, not to mention feeling a bit PMSy, backed me into a corner and rather than explaining my need for Glenn to back off on the superH approach, I told them no matter what he does, it's not going to work. This is where things got a little out of control. Glenn suggested I go stay at a friend's for a few weeks to figure out what I was doing because he didn't know who I was anymore and feared I didn't either. He said it is too painful and torturous to live with me knowing that as soon as I find a job, I'd be gone. I took this as him kicking me out. It was a very quiet, stressful day afterwards with him spending the most part of the evening at his brother's while I was seeking advice from friends. Everyone was telling me not to leave because that could be considered abandonment.
On Saturday, we discussed everything and realized our misunderstandings. I explained that I don't feel as if I need a break to think things over but need him to stop his superH role and give me some space. I also explained that my need for employment wasn't based on leaving, but on contributing to the household and our debts. I always was an independent gal and being so dependent on him has been difficult. I reassured him that my working would not make me resentful, even though that was what I feared not so long ago. I wish I could set some sort of timeline for this, but I just can't. I have so many issues to work out before I can even begin to be a wife/lover again. Since that conversation our household has been much more peaceful and comfortable.
Glenn mentioned how uneasy he was that I hadn't posted, because I tend to express myself more candidly on here... so I'll try to keep that in mind while putting more effort into our "face-to-face" communications.
Glen and Pam:
I hope you both understand that you are on the brink of having the most incredible relationship the two of you could ever imagine having.
Trust yourselves. Trust one another. It's going to hurt a bit, and it's going to be a bit bumpy for awhile, but if you learn to deal with truth without making your partner 'pay' for it, you've got the best shot of making it that you could ever have hoped for.
Good luck.
Corri
I ditto what Corri says. I am hopeful you two will work things out and be better than ever.
Hairdog, who wants the best for these two people he's never met.
Lastnight, H wanted to talk about our relationship and how I was feeling about everything. He told me I've disconnected and it feels as if there are three people in our relationship. He brought up a past lover and asked if I had contacted him. I told him that I had a few weeks ago via email. He asked me how he was and I told him that he's fine and that he's involved with someone. He then confronted me on my photos of him. I had taken them out of my photo album and put them away. Last week, I scanned them for the OM and forgot to remove the file from the computer. He feels deceived that I removed them from my album only to hide them.
This OM lives in a different province and is in a relationship. H is jealous and insecure about any contact I have with OM because he was my first love. He has made it crystal clear over the years that he does not like this guy and doesn't understand how I could ever have loved him or connected with him the way I did. I've tried to explain that he will always hold a place in my heart, but the contact was friendly and just out of curiosity. We emailed a few times and are friends, but nothing more. Is this considered an EA? In all honesty, I just asked him what he had been up to the past 11 years. He replied, filling me in, apologized for breaking my heart, explained the past from his POV and that's it... end of story.
H wants to start working on the marriage and doesn't seem to understand that I'm not ready to yet. I'm still sorting myself out and trying to work through my own issues first.
Pam! Great to see you. I was just thinking about you earlier today, and wondering how things are going for you. I don't know to what extent you've been lurking here lately, but you almost can't help but trip over the buzz being created by a book called Passionate Marriage. In the past week there've been a storm of posts on many aspects of it. I've read the whole book, and am about to begin putting it into action. The thought that occurred to me in regards to your sitch was something you posted a while ago about needing to be true to yourself, and not being sure you could do that in relation to your M. The reason I thought of you in that context is that this book deals with EXACTLY that - how each partner in a marriage can be true to themSELVES, while giving the other the room for growth and exploration of potential. It excited me greatly to see the possibilities. I'm not proseletizing here... what you do is up to you, I'm just putting a possibility in front of you.
Thanks Tim, actually H bought the book last week or so and has been raving about it. I'm planning to read it when he's finished with it.
I do lurk pretty much on a daily basis and I sincerely wish you the best.
Aquarian:
Dr. Laura has it in her "The 10 Stupid Things That Women Do". Both husbands and wifes should discontinue any relationship with old loves. It will only cause grief in marriages. I also saw a book about EA that says that women think that they can carry on a platonic relationship with male friends, but that something like 70% of the men in "Platonic" relationships try to make them "Physical" relationships at some point. Why risk your marriage? Why do you need this other guy in your life? I know how it feels, my wife also keeps contact with her ex lover. I know how men operate, and it will always eventually get to sex. Now if you are communicating with OM in a way that should be between you and your husband, then yes, you are having an EA with the OM. Honestly, what is it going to get you besides trouble?
I suppose I was hoping for some validation and closure.
Hey folks! It's been a while. I have lurked from time to time and read a few posts, but mostly tried to avoid the board for a while as I tried to figure out what I was doing. I did have a brief (long distance) EA, but it's been over for a while now. I had a scare back in May - June and it seemed as if I was having some kind of medical setback due to stress. Thankfully I was treated and I've recovered. I'm now just trying to fight fatigue and start jobhunting again. H was wonderfully supportive, accompanying me on hospital visits, tests, and provided many foot massages.
H has been in the spare bedroom now since Spring and a few evenings ago, I asked him if he'd like to return to our bedroom. I pointed out that he could not pressure me to be sexual and that I'm a little uneasy about the fact that I am such a deep sleeper that I don't fully trust him not to take advantage of sharing a bed.
Part of this apprehension is due to some of the foot massages he gave me left me feeling a bit uncomfortable. He'd kiss my feet and legs and sometimes work his way up my thighs to the point that I'd get up and move away. I am aware that this is an obvious problem that I need to work on and have been addressing it in therapy. I tend to overlook my own feelings and consider others feelings before mine, this is why it was easier to move away from being uncomfortable rather than verbally saying so to my H. This is a huge factor in what started our SSM, I believe.
He told me he'd stay downstairs a little longer because he didn't want me to be uncertain. Last night, (the next day) he asked me if I had given it any more thought and seemed disappointed that I wasn't giving him a direct invitation.
I know I am still not ready to dive back into a sexual relationship, so is sharing our bed a mistake at this point? Should we remain in seperate bedrooms until I want to be sexual??
Wow, Pam, that's a tough one. Not the best day to post, as it's slow due to the holiday, and some of the best advice-givers don't hang here much anymore, having acquired a life and decided to live it.
It sounds to me like fusion and trust are still very big issues at your house, and it was probably premature to sound H out about sharing a bed. He gets points for offering to stay put "a little longer", but then loses them for apparently thinking one day met the criteria. It also sounds to me like by offering him a shared bed, but then waffling due to the sexual issues, that you're sending mixed messages. But then your sitch is complex, and there aren't any easy answers. Sounds like you still need some space to deal with the issues around whether you can trust him enough to become sexual with him again...
Pam,
What, in your mind, will jump start those sexual feelings in you?
If you know what the holdup is, then I would personally focus on THAT issue and resolve it prior to sharing a bedroom again.
If you aren't sure, then I would say that sometimes it is beneficial to put the cart before the horse. It might help recreate those feelings. Right now, I imagine that after an EA and the separate bedrooms that intimacy (of any kind, as evidenced by the foot massage) would seem weird. So to think about it now it might be easy to convince yourself that you are not ready for it, when in fact you have just become unaccustomed to it. That is where just doing it would be helpful because it would be allowing your actions to dictate your feelings instead of your feelings dictating your actions.
Also, I had an idea re: the sleep thing. Why not just say to your H that a condition of the marriage continuing is absolutely NO SEX after you have fallen asleep? That way, there will never be any mistaking if you are awake and consenting or asleep and being taken advantage of by your very own husband.
A plan like that assumes, of course, that you will not fall asleep on the couch every night and things like that. It would be contingent on you both going to bed together and mutually agreeing on whether you will be having sex that night.
What do you think of that?
Honeypot
P.S. Good to see you again and it looks like things are on the upswing. VERY happy to hear it.
It's good to hear from you again Pam. I'm going to think about your situation for a while. It sounds really tricky and I might need an update.
My first question is why don't you trust him?
Secondly, are your feelings for your H still good and loving? Are you still attracted to him etc?
Are you trying to simply step up to the plate and "just do it" to hopefully gain the benefits that Michele talks about in SSM but are finding that the "reptillian" portion of the brain is taking over and preventing it? Is your mind ever "into it" when being touched at any point? Are you able to feel horny while alone? Do you "take care of" yourself ever (in a sexual way)? You mention the "give, give give" thing? (this is like my W) Why would you avoid "giving" to yourself?
It might simply be a case where the C might be a good approach.
Sorry for the 50 questions. I've gotten much better at my form of unlicensed-hack-psychology here. I've learned to talk a pretty good game.
But from reading about your sitch a while ago, there is something making want to really stretch myself to help you out.
Hi Pam. I was thinking about you just the other day.
I assume that Glenn knows about the EA...of course, he will, given that he comes to this board, too.
I wish I could wave a magic wand and help the two of you...you seem to be great people. But, I don't have such a wand. I know you both have been through and are going through hell. I'm thinking the "cart before the horse" approach might be a good one.
Hoping for the best,
Hairdog
First of all, thank you ALL for the kind words. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and trying to help us. It's both wonderful and awful to see you still here... I'm sure you understand why.
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Tim said It sounds to me like fusion and trust are still very big issues at your house. It also sounds to me like by offering him a shared bed, but then waffling due to the sexual issues, that you're sending mixed messages. Sounds like you still need some space to deal with the issues around whether you can trust him enough to become sexual with him again...
I still haven't managed to read PM (still only a few pages into it), but I must agree with the fusion and trust issues. I don't want to send mixed messages and wind up rejecting him. My thinking was that I am committed to working on our marriage; I'm not giving up afterall. As helpful as it has been to have solitude at night, I hate that he is downstairs in our guestroom; it also bugs me that our kids seem to think it's perfectly normal for us to have our own bedrooms. Not very strong reasons for it, are they?
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honeypot said What, in your mind, will jump start those sexual feelings in you? Why not just say to your H that a condition of the marriage continuing is absolutely NO SEX after you have fallen asleep? That way, there will never be any mistaking if you are awake and consenting or asleep and being taken advantage of...
Right now, I'm not sure what if anything will jumpstart my libido! I have been focusing on taking better care of myself and I'm ready to start looking for work again. Loosing some weight and being employed will definitely help, I believe. I've been in a rut and am slowly digging my way out so to speak. I thought by inviting him back to our bedroom that things would be more normal around our household. We could make babystep gestures toward being romantic and intimate again, but without pressure. The problem is that the condition you suggest has been voiced in the past, and it wasn't respected. I told him a few months ago that as long as he can't give me a real answer as to why/how he could break that condition that I wouldn't be able to trust him (in bed). I realize that must sound incredibly anal to some, but... as I've tried to explain before, I'm a very deep sleeper, and I'm a survivor of sexual abuse, so my consent is extremely critical. Oh, and btw, I don't have the habit of falling asleep anywhere except my bed!
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AtlDave said My first question is why don't you trust him? Secondly, are your feelings for your H still good and loving? Are you still attracted to him etc? Are you trying to simply step up to the plate and "just do it" to hopefully gain the benefits that Michele talks about in SSM. Is your mind ever "into it" when being touched at any point? Are you able to feel horny while alone? Do you "take care of" yourself ever (in a sexual way)? You mention the "give, give give" thing? (this is like my W) Why would you avoid "giving" to yourself?
I don't trust him to allow me to blossom without pressuring me. In the past, my consent (nor consciousness) wasn't necessary for him to get it on with me, and that hurt me emotionally and mentally. Yes, I still love him and want to rebuild our marriage. I took the "just do it" approach shortly after becoming a member here and it didn't work for me. I'm not making that mistake again. I won't rush myself. I haven't felt horny in quite a while (at least a few months now), to be honest. I'm not sure what you're looking for with the giving question.
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hairdog I'm thinking the "cart before the horse" approach might be a good one.
I somewhat agree Harry, and that's why I asked him about it a few nights ago. I wanted input from you guys here because I know how dreadful bedtime can be for you and I don't want to have H resume his side of the bed just to be frustrated. I'll have to give it alot more thought I guess.
pam,
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I'm not sure what you're looking for with the giving question.
Pam, I was asking this because I had a couple of ideas around this issue. It was mostly rhetorical. But my neighbor is a "giver" and there's a huge relationship between this behavior and her recent D. It's an interesting case because her friends (and my W) think she's a saint because she's such a "giver" but I've now learned that she's "other-validated" and SHE was a major contributor to the failure of the marriage...not just her psycho husband. I've gotten pretty good at doing PMish analysis. The "giving" question might be the most relevant one of all now that you've admitted that all the lowe-level things are in place.
Good luck. I'll cook on some thoughts about your sitch for a while and get back.
Hiya Pam. One suggestion I have about jump-starting your libido is that you should schedule (yes, SCHEDULE) two times a day, a period of intense sexual fantasizing. You don't have to mb during these times, but if you feel the urge, you should do it.
Doctor Hairdog - Take two of these, and call me in the morning.