Okay, I know I'm going to regret the stupid subject line, but I don't really have a subject at the moment. It seems my previous thread no longer works, therefore I have to create a new one so that MPT can post the reply that she was unable to post earlier. Of course I welcome advice and comments from anyone, I've just singled MPT out because she specifically stated in AchingMan's thread that she tried to post and couldn't.
Now that I've figured out how to do this, here are the links to my previous threads:
Sex-starved and looking for advice Is there such thing as a walk-away husband? Guess I should give a brief update. I decided a couple of weeks ago that in order to someday see some improvement in my situation, I need to do two things. First, I absolutely have to stop putting pressure on my wife by trying to talk to her about the lack of intimacy in our relationship, pouting about how it's affecting me, suggesting that she read the SSM, and most of all having the sex argument. Second, I feel like I need to stop initiating anything even remotely sexual. I've basically stopped touching her with the exception of innocent goodbye kisses. After two weeks I'm actually doing pretty well. I've remained fairly upbeat and for once I don't feel like I'm on the verge of breaking down and saying or doing something that would set us back. She seems to be happy at the moment although there's been no sudden increase in her desire for romance. But I'm determined to stick with my plan because I really think it may just take some time to get past the anxiety and hurt feelings from previous arguments. I'm leaving town Sunday to work out of state for a week so I should easily make it through that without any screw-ups. I just have to make sure that I keep it up when I get back because she expects me to either get pouty or blow up soon after returning from out of town. I've done so several times in the past.
Anyway, that's about it. I'll have a computer with me while I'm out of town so keep the advice and comments coming. Hope everyone has a great Fourth of July.
Sooner
Hi sooner,
How about THREAD-O-LUV?
Sounds like you're holding on pretty good, which is encouraging to all of us. I think it might be all we can do.
Whatever you do don't break down when you get back. I know for me that would be the toughest point too (just before leaving is tough too). What's strange is that I know I could be somewhat non-chalant or indifferent to my wife's advances if she were regularly hitting on me. This may indicate a frustration not only in the sexual realm but also a control issue; who's holding the reins?
I wonder if anyone knows about about something you can take to lower your libido? That would shift the center of power. If you dont' want it how can someone control you with it?
Good luck, man, have fun on your trip. Solitude can be a great nurturer.
AchingMan
Thanks for the support AchingMan. Guess my Thread-O-Fun isn't turning out to be so fun. Is it the silly name? I know there's nothing really to respond to in my earlier post in this thread, but I was still hoping for some responses from the end of my last thread. Are you out there MPT?
I'm here in my hotel and somewhat enjoying the fact that my wife couldn't have sex with me now even if she wanted to. I just imagine that she's sitting at home dying to be with me. Yeah right!
I think I'll be okay when I get home with regard to not breaking down and leading into the sex argument. It'll be tough though. Hope everyone is doing well.
Sooner
Hey Sooner,
The fact that we haven't heard from you and the fact that you could not think of a title for your new thread is a good sign. It shows that you are sticking to your new goals.
Remember to stick to it when you get home.
LH
Sooner,
The post I've been trying to post is cursed. Couldn't originally post it to your other thread because of lock out. Pressed a wrong button somewhere along the way the first time trying to post it on this thread, lost the whole long thing (
). Lost power TWICE while trying to post it at other times. At least I hadn't typed the whole thing out when the power went out both times. I've gotten superstitious about that post.
Time issues going on here as well. Trying to squeeze my work in between home stuff. It's even more challenging now that the girls are on summer break. I've been a work-outside-the home mom, a stay-at-home mom, and now a work-from-the-home mom. This one has been the most intricate of the juggling acts!
I'll be on vacation next week. Need to get ready for it today. I'll touch base with you when we get back.
Take care, MPT
Hey LH,
I've been thinking about you. Thought I'd post to you here 'cause I'm not sure where else to!
Your h and my h are in similar situations. I understand what you're feeling. My h's long work hours and stress have an impact on how he interacts with me. It doesn't affect his sexual desire, but it affects his ability/motivation/desire to do many of the other things which are as important to me as physical intimacy is to you. I too have had the thoughts of "is this temporary or not?"
An approach which has worked for me is total empathy for him. It's not always easy. But when I think about how much I love him, his pain becomes mine. I mostly just want to make him feel better. Can't say I don't have moments of "but what about me!"
The thing is I feel really crappy when I feel that way. I feel really good when I nurture my empathy for him. His joy at my making him feel better becomes my joy. When I remind myself of what the empathy approach does for me compared to the "what about me" approach, I guess I selfishly focus on empathizing with him...an interesting paradox
! Did that make any sense at all?
Best wishes, MPT
Quoting MPT:
An approach which has worked for me is total empathy for him. It's not always easy. But when I think about how much I love him, his pain becomes mine. I mostly just want to make him feel better. Can't say I don't have moments of "but what about me!" The thing is I feel really crappy when I feel that way. I feel really good when I nurture my empathy for him. His joy at my making him feel better becomes my joy. When I remind myself of what the empathy approach does for me compared to the "what about me" approach, I guess I selfishly focus on empathizing with him...an interesting paradox ! Did that make any sense at all?
Hi MPT,
Oh yes! It makes perfect sense to me. Sometimes I have to struggle really hard at empathy though but I like what you said about
"His joy at my making him feel better becomes my joy." In fact I just gave him a hard time with the
"What about me?" approach. The poor fellow. My Hs love language is "Acts of Service". Not only does speaking that language makes him happy. He speaks that language to me as well. He is constantly doing things for me and when he feels it is not appreciated than he becomes unhappy. I'll have to listen harder, I guess. Physical touch certainly isn't one of his love language. My H is so busy he feels intimacy is not too important to show love. He tells me I am too free and if I have so much extra energy, I should channel it towards the home and family instead. (But I already do, 24 hours a day!
) Got to go channel some of that energy into feeding the baby now.
Thanks for checking in on me. BTW, when you lose your posts by accident, have you tried hitting the back button on your PC. Sometimes I get to retrieve it that way, than I just cut and paste.
Take care,
LH
MPT,
Sorry about the cursed post! I understand how hectic things can get so go have a great vacation and save your wise words for when you have some time. No problem here.
Thanks for your supportive post luvhubby. I think you're right that my slacking off on the posting is a good thing from the standpoint that I'm not trying so hard to find some magic way to fix my wife's lack of desire - I'm basically just trying to control my own actions and feelings. But it helps to hear someone else confirm that. I'm going home tomorrow after a full week away and I'm planning to be on my best behavior. Wish me luck!
Sooner
Hi everyone,
Well, I stuck with my plan for over a month - not putting any pressure on my wife and not making any advances - but unfortunately I screwed up tonight. We went to Dallas this weekend with our girls and stayed at my brother-in-law's house. It was a nice weekend although not the least bit romantic. I honestly don't remember when we last had sex, but it was a long time ago and I'm so horny that I'm about to explode. So after getting back this afternoon, I told my wife that I'd really like to make love to her tonight. She rolled her eyes and started making excuses right away, but didn't actually come out and say no. I took the girls to bed around 9 and had them to sleep before 9:30. My wife was already in bed so I crawled in and tried to cuddle up to her. She basically freaked out and the usual argument began. It didn't get too bad - no outright yelling or anything - but nonetheless it happened and I'm sure that she's added a few months onto my sentence because of it.
I know that I screwed up and I suppose the thing to do is to just pick myself up and try again. But that's so hard to do because I have no idea how long I might have to suppress my feelings and desires before things will get any better. I want her so badly and I hate that I may have to wait months or years to even touch her in a romantic way, much less make love to her. Knowing that there's nothing I can do to speed up the process only makes things worse.
Sooner
Sooner:
I've been keeping up with your thread(s), and my heart goes out to you. I'm an LDer, my H is the HDer.
I don't know that you 'screwed up' this weekend...you tried and I don't think anyone would blame you for that. Pick yourself up and go back to your plan. Get out of the house as much as you can this week, with or without your kids...but go do stuff...and smile even if it kills you.
As an LDer, I can tell you that when you told your wife you wanted to make love to her that night, you left a big 'ole expectation smack dab on her shoulders. And if she had any inclination at all, you probably killed it with that announcement.
Is that fair? Hell, no. But I can tell you as someone who has been through this, I resented the heck out of my H's expectations...and if he told me he wanted to make love to me, it KILLED whatever miniscule amount of drive I had left.
Now that I've read the book, I understand that sex goes well beyond the physical release for him. I can deal with that. What I find very, very sad, is that he has not spent one/tenth the time on his part of the book...to understand me.
When our numbers start to fall, I can tell by his actions and words that all he is trying to do is figure out a way to get me to want to have sex with him. He is so transparent it hurts. Even though I think I have tried to turn myself inside out to increase our frequency as much as possible, I can't tell you the last time he called a sitter for us to go out on a date. Now, can I do that just as easily as he can? Of course. But it's the effort that counts with me...that speaks to me. Not necessarily the date itself.
I guess I don't really have any advice for you, and I'm sorry for it. There has to be giving on boths sides in order to solve a problem. And if she is unwilling or unable to understand you, then all you can do is work on yourself and your own happiness. The one road that would take you directly to Happiness Central is closed to you. So start focusing on exploring other avenues, other roads, and turn all your attention onto yourself and your kids. That's all you can do in this sitch.
The only other choices you have are to have an affair or get out of your marriage. I hope you resist both of these options because the reprecussions of both are extraordinarily painful. The reprecussion of the first option...well...I think it can only bring you positive results, regardless. (Of course, it's the hardest option, and probably the one that will take the longest in bringing about results, too).
Good luck to you.
Corri
Hi Sooner
I totally sympathize with you. Most guys can not go on a starvation diet forever, we are just not built that way and sooner or later we are going to fall off the wagon. I can not help in my case think that my wife has been somehwat selfish for not even being willing to try to address the situation and/or consider a compromise, but I know there are a lot of factors at play and she can not help loosing her sex drive.
I would assume that your wife loves you and cares about you, but this is not entirely clear from your posts. In my case, I know my wife loves me and does care about me. I believe that a change in her hormones is the root cause of her dysfunction. However, in some way that I don't understand, she seems to be afraid of being further rejected or afraid of being considered to be an inadequate wife which causes her to set up barriers that prohibit a meaningful dialogue and resolution to the situation.
You and I seem to be in a similar circle of frustration that overwhelms us at times. How can we not dwell on our situation and feel anger, frustration, confusion and guilt all at the same time?
For what it is worth, I have taken your approach of trying to put no pressure on my wife for months on end, only to "fall of the wagon" and start the cycle over again. I see recent signs that this may turn around after years of trying. I think that a break through may have occured when she slightly opened the door about sex and I reassured her that I didn't believe she could help her lack of sex drive and that I felt that she probably would like to have one. We actually had a good open and supportive discussion and the forum was right. For the last two weeks she has been a little more open on the subject and we did have sex a week or so ago. I think that it is important to nurture this situation and be very very supportive to her in all aspects of her life. I am not expecting any miracles, but any sustained improvement in this area will be a positive foothold to build on.
Perhaps if you are patient, your opportunity to have a meaningful and supportive discussion will present itself and you will be ready to find a way to keep the door open for further improvement. I wish there were other approaches that I could recommend, but the alternatives appeared to be more negative than I would felt comfortable purusing (usually involving some threat of loss of the relationship).
Sooner, I generally think you are on the right track for now and hopefully your opportunity to have a meaningful discussion will present itself.
Regards:lr.
Corri,
Thanks for your support and understanding. I've been following your threads as well and I wanted to let you know that your "Food for Thought" post was helpful and gave me a lot to think about.
My wife stated last night that she feels like we're not even friends. I don't understand that because I think that we're great friends - just not when it comes to the intimacy issue. That's apparently all she sees. Doesn't she understand that if she would only do something to try and address that issue there would no longer be any threat of an argument over it? We can go a month getting along wonderfully, with no mention of sex whatsoever, and when the subject of sex does come up I find out that none of my efforts to be a friend over the past month have even been noticed. She has a lot of stress at work right now and I've concentrated on being supportive, just listening, and not offering advice or trying to fix her problems. On the rare occasion that we've gone to bed together, I've just laid there with her and talked, without laying a hand on her. She knows that I'll do anything she ever asks of me without complaining one bit, and I do a lot of things for her that she doesn't ask for. How can I be any better friend? It seems to me that the only way I can be the friend she wants is if I can lose all desire to be intimate with her - and I can't do that!
I don't feel like she's a friend to me - my friends care about me and hurt with me when I'm hurting. But if it weren't for the impact that it has on her, my wife couldn't care less that I'm hurting. I'm tempted to say "Fine, if you won't even consider working on our intimacy issues until we become better friends, then consider me nothing but a roommate from now on". I'm tempted to move into another bedroom so she'll never have to go to bed afraid that I might touch her. I may even take a week of vacation and just go somewhere nice by myself. I've let her know that I'd love to take her places so that we can spend some time together without the kids, but what's the point if she can't even have fun because she's so afraid that I might want to have sex with her. I'm just so sick of hoping things will get better only to find that I'm still doing everything wrong! For her to care enough about me to work on what's bothering me, everything in her life must first be perfect. But it never will be, and I can't do anything to change that. If I do everything possible to make her life perfect, she'll still have problems at work, get mad at the girls, not get enough sleep, not feel good about half the time, etc. Sometimes I feel like just giving up.
Guess I'd better get back to work. I apologize for ranting.
Sooner
Thanks lowrob. At the moment, I feel completely hopeless, but your post helps me to see that there actually may be some hope if I can learn how to stop shooting myself in the foot. Like you, I do believe that my wife loves me and cares about me - it just doesn't feel like it sometimes.
Sooner
Hi Sooner,
Sorry to hear your latest update. Nevermind, just pick yourself up and go again. Anyway here's my 2 cents.
"she feels like we're not even friends"
"I don't feel like she's a friend to me "
Sounds to me like you have to work real hard (even harder than what you have been doing) at having fun again as a couple, without the intimacy issue in the way (for now) of course. Tough one this, since you do sound like you have been trying.
"I'm tempted to move into another bedroom so she'll never have to go to bed afraid that I might touch her. "
You know this is going to just take you further away from each other. My guess is you probably just said this in frustration, right? (I hope.)
"I may even take a week of vacation and just go somewhere nice by myself. I've let her know that I'd love to take her places so that we can spend some time together without the kids, but what's the point if she can't even have fun because she's so afraid that I might want to have sex with her. "
She might not be having fun for other reasons. You mentioned once that she feels guilty spending her free time away from the kids because her work takes her away from them. This doesn't combine well with romance does it.
"I'm just so sick of hoping things will get better only to find that I'm still doing everything wrong! "
Hang in there, Sooner.
"! For her to care enough about me to work on what's bothering me, everything in her life must first be perfect. But it never will be, and I can't do anything to change that."
Maybe you can. Do you know what will make her life "perfect" It has something that will make life good for her and not something which you think will be good for her. You mentioned once that you were working towards making it possible for her to be a stay-at-home mum so she can spend more time with the kids. How is that coming along. Maybe a real big change in her life will make a better impact than all the other things you have been trying. Maybe quitting that stressful job of hers and spending more time with the kids will free her to concentrate on other areas important to both of you. This is not easy but its just a thought.
L H
Hi Corri,
Quoting Corri:
I can't tell you the last time he called a sitter for us to go out on a date. Now, can I do that just as easily as he can? Of course. But it's the effort that counts with me...that speaks to me. Not necessarily the date itself.
Have you read the Five Love Languages? Its a powerful book of simple concepts. It sounds to me like your husband is not speaking your love language which is "quality time". Try to read it together as you did with SSM. It will be good.
Have you told him how you felt about this issue. Sometimes keeping quiet and thinking "But he should know" doesn't help because he can't read your mind.
Gosh, its equally frustrating to be on the other side of the fence isn't it especially if you're trying but feel like your H is not trying to understand you. I totally agree with you that there has to be giving on both sides to solve a problem.
Good luck to you.
LH
luvhubby,
Thanks for your post. Don't have much time to respond as I'm headed out to catch a plane, but thought I'd try to quickly answer a couple of your questions
You're right that my comment about moving into another bedroom was just out of frustration, as was my comment about taking a vacation by myself. I really wish that we could afford for my wife to stop working - I think that would help a lot by relieving her of that stress and letting her spend more time with the girls. Unfortunately it's not an option at the moment - the payments on our house and her new Expedition pretty much rule that out. But I'm hoping that it will be possible within a couple of years.
Gotta run - just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your input.
Sooner
Hi Sooner,
I promised you a post a while back about what I've been doing to be happy and satisfied with my H and my marriage without needing him to change. (I'm hoping the computer gremlins are asleep since this is the cursed post....shhhhhh.)
1. I've been focusing my attention on myself rather than my H. Am I loving enough? Am I making loving choices in how I think about him and respond to him? I want him to think of me when he thinks of who brings out the best in him, who he feels best being around.
2. When I start to think about what I might like to be different about him, I bring out a big portion of humility I keep stored nearby. If I'm going to be working on "improving" someone, I have enough to keep myself busy with just me.
3. Gratitude. It is truly an amazing honor, luxury, gift...pick your word...to have someone to share your life with. I'm not going to do or think anything which trashes that gift.
4. Assume the best, not the worst, about my spouse. Give him the benefit of the doubt when he does something or doesn't do something I think he ought. I'd want him to do the same for me.
5. Make the decision to love unconditionally.
6. Reminding myself that when I'm too focused on myself and my "needs," I usually feel pretty bad. When I change my focus to others, I feel much better. The good feelings seem to last longer under those circumstances than the good feeling I get having my "needs" met. It really takes some conscious effort on my part though to remember that when I'm feeling bad.
Best wishes, MPT
MPT,
I want to print this out and hang it up somewhere. These are exactly the kind of things I need to be doing, too.
This is good stuff MPT. Maybe you should write a book....
LH
MPT,
Thank you so much - I'm glad that we finally got to see the cursed post. You have some great suggestions that I will certainly try to implement.
I'm reading the Five Love Languages right now - I think I'm through Chapter 9 - and something that I read today while flying home gave me an idea that I thought I'd throw out here for comment. I'm fairly sure that my wife's love language is "acts of service". I've tried at various times in the past to do things for her that I thought she would appreciate, but I think that maybe I haven't picked the things that really help her to feel loved. Also, I mentioned the other day that she surprised me by saying that she didn't even feel like we were friends anymore. Therefore in order for her to feel loved, and to feel like I'm her friend, I thought this might help. On a piece of paper, I'd write the following:
1. List five things that I could do on a regular basis which would help you to feel that I love you.
2. List three ways that I could be a better friend.
3. List three things that the two of us could do together which you would consider to be really fun.
Those are a little rough still - I can probably come up with a better way to word them - but I'm sure you get the idea. I'd ask her to take some time and think about her answers because I'm going to do my best to follow through on them. And of course she could always add more later - I just threw out some numbers to give her something to shoot for. My thinking is that if I actually knew the things that would help her to feel loved and to feel that I'm her friend, I could do a lot better job of "filling her love tank" than I can by guessing.
Please let me know if I'm onto something here and if anyone can think of any better way to go about this.
Sooner
All:
MPT's and Sooner's posts have really made me think hard about myself...they usually do...and I'd like to throw out a question here for all of us.
I think that we will all agree that humans need to be touched. A lot. In sexual and non-sexual ways.
I don't know if this is me, or if it is an LD type behavior, but I tend to be very...mentally active. I THINK a lot. This tends to push my focus inward...to varying degrees, depending on what thought has my attention at the moment. I notice that I do this when I am feeling emotionally overloaded. I think it may be my way of creating 'space' if you will. When I begin to disconnect in this manner is usually the time when my family needs my attention the most.
I have to tell you that getting myself out of this mode can sometimes be very painful for me it takes so much effort. Forcing myself to come out of this mode can make me cranky, waspish, snappy, you name it. And like I said, this is usually when my H needs my emotional attention...which he usually intiates in a physcial way. If I snap...well, of course he interprets it as a rejection of physcial intimacy.
I think sometimes I mean it that way, though not to be mean. A little crisis is going on inside of me because I am feeling overwhelmed. By everything.
I have discoverd about myself that I need physical 'touching' as much as my H does....but I can't enjoy it really until I'm through my internal crisis.
There was not a lot of touching in my family...hence, I retreated into my own thoughts and daydreams for comfort.
My H grew up in a family that did even less touching than mine...but I don't think he ever found a mechanism for comforting himself...he just craved more touching and became despondent from lack of it.
One of the things that I have found to help me through getting myself 'out' of my internal crisis is for me to make lists...lists of what I am thinking about, lists of what I have to get done in a day...and the list that lets me off the hook: what do I think absolutely has to be done, and what can I let go til another day? I can then begin to relax...I've got a plan to get me through my day.
So after all this, here is my question. MPT, do you ever feel this way? Do any of you HDer's spouses seem to exhibit the same type of behavior?
I'm wondering, Sooner, about your lists. I'm wondering if this might be a method to help you get closer to your W. I know that when I make my lists and my H helps me take care of my lists, I damn near weep with relief. He can have anything he wants from me my relief is so profound. And it's because he has helped me not feel so 'overwhelmed.'
Thing is, I just don't know if this type of behavior is 'typical' or if it's just my own quirkiness.
Thinking about it right now, it would be wonderful if my H even helped me with my lists...talked me through it, if you will, in a non-judging way. Was just quiet, listened to me talk through things, made lists as I talked, then help me whittle things down into manageable chunks. And the most critical list of all is, if we can only get x, y and z done, what is x, y and z? (That's the one that let's me off the hook).
You may not think this is any big deal, but for me, like I said, the times we've managed to do this just by accident, I can remember feeling so much 'love' towards him...once my lists are done, I can open myself up to the closeness we both need....
I think that's why when my H has say, cleaned my car for me, and I don't react the way he wants me to...it's usually because whatever he has chosen to do for me wasn't real high on my priority list. But if he knew what my priority list was....
I don't know. This may not be anything at all....just wonder what you all think.
Corri
Corri
Once again you’ve brought up a picnic for thought.
It is appearing to me that you may be more similar to my wife than I previously thought. I will need to pick your brain for ideas when I get a chance to describe some situations to you and direct some questions to you. I hope you don’t mind being probed for ideas; I’m at the end of my rope!
AchingMan
AM:
Fire questions when ready. I'll be back Wednesday afternoon. It would be really cool to know that exploration of my personal quirks might in fact be useful to someone else!!
You've certainly helped me along my path.
Corri
Corri,
Your post was really helpful because it basically told me that my idea has some merit - in your case anyway. Of course I have to keep in mind that you're actively working on the intimacy problems in your marriage while my wife is not. I'm somewhat afraid that after writing her a couple of relationship-oriented letters in the past 2 or 3 months, she'll immediately go into defense-mode the moment that I hand her something in writing. Also, I'm a little concerned about asking her to tell me what I can do for her because she seems to believe that if she has to ask me to do something it no longer means anything to her when I do it. But unfortunately, her priority list (sometimes written but more often mental) changes every day and no matter what I do for her I always seem to miss whatever happens to be at the top of her list.
You're absolutely right that my idea is a method to help me get closer to my wife - and to help her feel closer to me. Besides our intimacy issues, I feel like we're extremely close, but she obviously doesn't feel the same way. If I could get some guidance from her concerning what I need to do to show her how much I love her and to help her again feel close to me, then I'll gladly do those things. And if she starts feeling close to me again, maybe she'll eventually want to work on fixing our intimacy problems. Does that make any sense, or will my efforts still come across as "he's only doing these things for me in hopes of getting sex in return"?
Sooner
Sooner:
Remember, life is all about action and reaction. If you don't like her reaction, change your action.
Call your wife's bluff. If she accusses you of just wanting sex, then ask her: "Is this going to get me sex tonight?"
And when she says no, say, "Well, now that we have gotten that issue out of the way, let's get back to making our list." (And make sure you don't initiate sex that night).
If she has a sense of humor, say, "Jeese, all you ever think about is sex. Can we just get back to the list please?"
But she's probably very sensitive to the sex issue, so this may not be the best route to take.
If she changes her list every day, ask her for a new list every day.
Take care of things on your own just to relieve pressure and see how long you can go without asking her for sex. (I know...I know...)
You can only do what you can do. If she doesn't want to give you a list every day, make one of your own. TAKE ACTION. And leave her the heck alone as much as you can stand.
Corri
Sooner:
P.S. Keep in mind that just because your actions may not bring about immediate results does not mean you are trying the wrong action. Think of placing a pot of water on the stove and turning the burner on high. The water does not boil immediately. It takes time to warm up.
You will need to give your new actions time to take effect.
Also, your wife will probably continue to treat you in the same manner for a while...and she's doing it out of habit. The two of you have created a dance together, and she knows it so well, she's on autopilot. It will take her some time to realize you aren't doing the same dance steps anymore.
Also remember that when she does push your buttons, you have the power to control your reaction to her. You do not have to get pissed if you choose not to. (That's a kicker, isn't it?)
Try to live in the conscious moment, understanding that every action you take, and every reaction you might have are under your control. You cannot control her actions or reactions to you. You can control yours. If you continue to act and react in unexpected manners, she will eventually notice. And she will change. She has no choice.
But remember, too, that as she gradually begins to change, you will, too.
You are now in unchartered water, my friend. You must make your own map...there is no right, no wrong. Sometimes you'll run aground, and you'll learn not to run aground anymore.
Oh. And one last thing.
Stay away from the icebergs.
Okay, NOW I have to go.
Corri
Sooner,
Ditto to what Corri has said
. I really like her idea of responding with humor. It is really hard to have a good argument with someone who refuses to take the bait and stays in a good humor (even if you may have to fake some of it.) Even if it seems like she gets a little miffed at you when you joke about it, that doesn't necessarily mean you should stop the light-hearted approach. It could just be "miffness" at you not playing the game by the same rules anymore. Maybe she'll even wonder why you're staying in such a good mood about the whole thing.
Quote:
Also, I'm a little concerned about asking her to tell me what I can do for her because she seems to believe that if she has to ask me to do something it no longer means anything to her when I do it.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to let your W know that you can't read her mind. She can't read yours either. How often has she been wrong when she's thought you were just doing something to get sex? I'm sure she has misread your motivations often in that regard.
Perhaps you can gently joke, without a sarcastic tone, that you are merely mortal and are not as good at reading minds as she is. So she will need to step down to the human level and communicate with words. You're terribly sorry you are so sadly afflicted by such deficiencies in mind-reading. You can be sure she must be sorely tried by it all.
Corri,
I know exactly what you mean about the thinking and the lists. There's just alot of stuff I'm responsible for. I have 3 young children and I sometimes joke that a large part of my job as their mother is to be their brains. I refer to lists as my extra set of brains. I too appreciate it a great deal when my H takes an interest. Essentially, he's expressing an interest in what I do when he does that.
Quote:
...I notice that I do this when I am feeling emotionally overloaded. I think it may be my way of creating 'space' if you will. When I begin to disconnect in this manner is usually the time when my family needs my attention the most.
I have to tell you that getting myself out of this mode can sometimes be very painful for me it takes so much effort. Forcing myself to come out of this mode can make me cranky, waspish, snappy, you name it. And like I said, this is usually when my H needs my emotional attention...which he usually intiates in a physcial way. If I snap...well, of course he interprets it as a rejection of physcial intimacy.
I can relate to this very well too. When you need to recharge your emotional batteries what sorts of things do you like to do? The more depleted my energy level the more I turn to activities which involve few if any other people. I tend to turn inward and want space. I enjoy the activity and social interaction when I'm feeling rested and well-energized.
My H is a little different. He'll come home after a hard day and crank up The Who. Activity re-charges his emotional batteries. He wants social interaction and turns outward.
Not too hard to see the conflict when it comes to sex when you look at how we recharge differently
. What has worked for us is understanding and accepting the differences. I take a read on my emotional energy level and if I think I need some space, I state that need and don't apologize for it anymore. Fortunately, my H has come to realize how he benefits when I'm emotionally recharged.
He's often as eager to help me get my space as I am.
At the same time, I try to return the favor by going the extra mile, even when I'm moderately depleted, when he needs to recharge. When I'm feeling impending "wiped-out-hood" though, I'll defend my boundaries. It doesn't do anybody any good for me to get emotionally run down. Too many people depend on me for emotional support. The key is recognizing the need to re-energize
before I get to that point.
Establishing the clear boundaries has actually helped me feel less like I have to defend the boundaries as much. When I didn't respect my need for space and didn't provide for it, it seemed like my H's desire for sex was always an invasion.
MPT
Corri and MPT,
Thank you both for your input. I really like the idea about handling the situation with a little bit of humor and light-heartedness. Corri is right that my wife is very sensitive concerning the sex issue and therefore won't have much of a sense of humor about it, however if I were to be upbeat and slightly funny when a potential sex argument begins I think it would throw her for a loop. It certainly can't hurt! Every time that we've had the sex argument before I've gotten frustrated and have been anything but light-hearted and funny. I've basically felt that I couldn't control my reaction when in that situation. However, if I look at it more like a game (I hate games by the way, but what the heck) where we could actually make some progress if I can only keep my frustration from showing through while remaining upbeat and jovial, then I think I stand a chance. Having said all of this, I really hope that the sex argument doesn't happen again. But the odds are against me and at least I have a new approach if it does.
For the sake of my "records" I should point out that we did get into the argument on Sunday. I know - I'm not doing well am I. I guess the "possibility of intimacy clock" has been reset yet again. I haven't followed through yet on my plan to ask her to list five things I could do on a regular basis which would help her to feel that I love her (along with the other questions), but I did send her an e-mail today that I thought I'd share just to see if anyone has any opinions. I forwarded one of those weekend getaway e-mails that tells you about several good deals and asked her to take a look at one that was within driving distance. Here's the gist of what I said:
--------------------------------------------------------
...I think that we could have a great long weekend at this resort. I know that you'll probably say that we can't afford it, but give it some thought anyway. The resort has several nice restaurants and bars, boat and wave runner
rentals, parasailing, multiple swimming pools (one is heated), nature trails, and a full-service spa and salon with lots of services and some full-day packages that I think you'd really enjoy...
Here's what I was thinking. We could have someone keep the girls and go on a long weekend together with the understanding that there would be nothing romantic between the two of us the entire weekend - no sex, cuddling, kissing, etc. If I had no expectations concerning romance, I can promise that I would not react the way that I have in the past when I'm hoping for something to happen and it doesn't. This would allow us to just spend some time together, have a lot of fun, and hopefully become close friends again. I think that such a weekend could help us enormously.
Let me know if you have any interest. If you're not particularly interested in this specific resort, but might like to try a "non-romantic" long weekend somewhere else, just let me know and I'll start looking into it.
--------------------------------------------------------
When I got home she told me that she doesn't want to spend the money right now - which is what I assumed she'd say. When I asked what she thought about the idea in general (referring to the "non-romantic weekend" concept) she said that she didn't know because she hadn't read the whole e-mail. I assume that she'll read the rest at some point and maybe I'll eventually get some feedback. Personally I thought this was a great idea, but I've learned that what I think is usually wrong. Any opinions? By the way, when she said that she didn't think we should spend the money right now I remained upbeat and told her that I understood (and basically agreed).
Sorry for the long post.
Sooner
Sooner:
If you want to take your wife on a weekend getaway, make the plans, arrange for a sitter...then tell your wife you'd really like it if she went away with you for this weekend getaway you've planned. Tell her you've taken care of everything, there is nothing for her to do or plan except pack her suitcase. Period. Don't bring up what you expect, what you're not expecting, whether you can afford it or not....just do it. And then when you go, don't make any moves. Give her time to enjoy herself, and give yourself an opportunity to enjoy her. But don't tell her before hand that you won't be making any moves...just don't do it.
Don't worry about how long it takes you to get there, how many times you have to stop for potty breaks, how long it takes you to eat your road-side meal...there's no opportunity on this trip to beat your all-time low travel record, after all...
You sending her the email you did...while sweet...well, in my opinion, you were looking for her to let you off the hook...[I know you probably won't want to do this and you'll probably think we can't afford it...I won't do anything you don't want me to do...but I'd like to take you on a weekend getaway.] God...could you put any more preconcieved expectations onto that one? Guess what? Her answer to you was exactly the answer you were hoping she'd give you.
You knew she was going to say no, yet you still wanted Good Will points for coming up with the idea in the first place. But I bet you don't really want to go if you think before hand you aren't going to get any loving on a weekend away alone with your wife trip.
Stop that.
You be you. Let her be her. If after you've planned everything, you've arranged for a sitter, and she still doesn't want to go...then take your girls and leave her at home. She's not ALLOWED to go. And if she won't let you take the kids, call your best buddy and the two of you go. And if he's got plans, then go by yourself.
As for thinking of a way to ask her to help you make a list of 'the 10 things I can do to make you feel loved list'....well, don't do it like that.
On Friday night, ask her the things she wants to get done that weekend, listing them out in order of preference for you. Ask her to split the list in half so that you can help her. If she wants to go grocery shopping, make sure you keep the girls so she can go by herself. And while she's out grocery shopping, do the things on your list you can get done with your girls home.
Don't look for accolades, don't look for thanks, don't give her the big hound dog eyes when she doesn't say a word to you about your good deeds. She probably won't. Make sure you fit into your weekend time for you to do the things you'd like to do (besides sex), and keep on keeping on.
Period.
And if after a month or so of doing this she doesn't say anything, thank you in any way, then tell her you really think it sucks that she can't even say thank you.
Then keep on making the lists, keep on doing your half, and keep on keeping on. Keep busy. Keep planning. Keep telling her you love her, keep on smiling, enjoy your girls...and keep your attention focused on your concious moment.
But for God's sake, quit looking for the banner to hang on the wall that screams at her "see all the things I do for you to show you how much I love you?"
For once in your life, put yourself and your own happiness first. It's okay.
Sorry if I have come across as harsh. I don't mean it that way...I'm actually rooting very hard for you.
Corri
Corri,
You kick ass...and it hurts, but I think it's good stuff. Your advice to sooner applies to my sitch somewhat so I'm trying to think about how it applies. Mostly, getting your thoughts may be like actually getting my wife to tell me what she wants (which she won't do, I dont' think she even knows what she wants). anyway, I think you know what I mean.
guys like sooner and me have something of a "hey I'm a sweet sensitive guy so why don't you want to give me some lovin?" complex. We're frustrated and bewildered. It's almost like we need to learn how to be assholes instead of nice to get our wives to respond. Is it possible that the sensitive guy myth is not really an attraction for some women?
AM
Corri,
Your post made me think about the difference between my cat and my dog. They both have decided I belong to them. The cat is independent and likes to cuddle. She shows up periodically during the day to touch base with me. If I don't pet her, she just goes on about her business and comes back later.
The dog follows me around constantly, looks to me for approval, and anytime she catches my eye she rolls on her back to be petted. If she doesn't get my attention she droops and looks at me most reproachfully. Even when she gets petted, she goes back to following me around, looking at me reproachfully, etc.
The cat and I get along great. The dog drives me crazy. I think the cat actually gets petted more even though the dog is working harder at getting petted.
Thanks for helping me figure out my reactions to my pets!
AM, I didn't see anything in Corri's post that told you to be an [censored]. You can be sensitive toward your partner and independent too.
MPT
Isn't that interesting. How come AM's a--hole got through and mine didn't? Must be the "s" at the end of his.
Corri,
I'll be rereading your post a lot in the next few days. Sure, it came across as a bit harsh, but that's okay - I think it was exactly what I needed to hear. As much as I'd like to hear that I've come up with some great idea to solve all of the problems between myself and my wife, I'd much rather hear what I'm doing wrong and how I can fix it. That's the reason I'm here and that's exactly what you've done. I greatly appreciate the thought that you put into my situation.
A little background for you on the weekend trip issue. Whenever my wife and I have gone anywhere without the kids in the past couple of years I've always hoped for something to happen between us. Halfway through the trip when it hasn't, I get utterly depressed, say something to her, and all hell breaks loose. I really don't blame her for not wanting to go anywhere with me because that's what she expects to happen every time. So I thought that by proposing the "non-romantic getaway" I could convince her that an argument was not going to happen, thereby easing her mind and allowing her to just have fun without any relationship worries. Nonetheless, after reading your post I agree that I probably went about things the wrong way. Of course you're right that I don't really want to go away for a weekend alone with my wife without any chance of romance. But I would have certainly made the best of it if I thought it might eventually do some good.
You also have some really good points relative to "the list". My thinking on that one was that her list could include whatever I could do to show her that I love her - which very well could be helping with or taking over various tasks, but also could be something less task-oriented, such as calling her for no specific reason, sending flowers, etc. But I agree that the way I had intended to go about it could give her the impression that I'm wanting to "hang a banner on the wall saying see all the things that I do for you...". Based on your input, I'm scrapping that idea.
With regard to your recommendation to put myself and my own happiness first, I feel like that's a big part of what got me into this mess. I thought that trying to put her first might be the best way to make some progress. However it obviously hasn't worked. And although I have been trying to put her first, I doubt that she'd see it that way. I think she sees me as being completely selfish in this whole pursuit.
AchingMan was right by the way when he said that guys like he and I have something of a "hey I'm a sweet sensitive guy so why don't you want to give me some lovin?" complex". I know exactly how you feel AM.
MPT, I take it that your post was a subtle way of telling me that I'm acting like your dog when I'd probably have a lot more success if I could learn to act like your cat. I agree with you. I'm actually trying to become more cat-like, but I'm having a hard time doing so obviously. Anyway, as always I value your comments - even when they're creatively disguised as being revelations about your pets. In the spirit of becoming more catlike, I am trying to develop some outside interests/hobbies. I started running this week - hadn't really done any exercise to speak of since college and I decided at 34 I might need to start doing something to stay in shape. So I'm planning to go for a run three times a week after getting the girls to sleep. That will keep me from following my wife around like a dog - at least on the nights that I run. Also, I'm trying to learn how to play golf. When my wife was about to take the girls upstairs to get them to bed tonight (it was her turn) I told her that I was going out to hit a bucket of balls. How things like that will ultimately affect my situation with her remains to be seen.
Thank you all.
Sooner
Sooner,
It was actually a combination. Only you know if you've been behaving like my dog. But she nailed my dog's behavior. The jingling keys she mentioned in another post started me thinking along these lines. Reminded me so much of the jingling of dog tags, which causes me to cringe.
I think Corri is going to be able to help you out a lot. I think she has had a similar experience with what your situation may be like. She'll be able to recognize dog behavior very quickly. My H is decidedly a cat. I don't think she's going to pull any punches with you either, so be very careful about "yes, but-itis." You might get hurt.
I'm off for another trip.
Best wishes, MPT
Sooner:
Gentle tact has probably never been one of my strong points. Blunt-as-a-butter-knife is more my norm...I try to be gentle, I do, then WHAM! I lower the boom...with good intention, mind you, but that doesn't mean it feels too good to the recipient. My apologies for my bluntness and if I trod a bit too heavily upon your feelings.
HOWEVER....in your post you said:
Quote:
With regard to your recommendation to put myself and my own happiness first, I feel like that's a big part of what got me into this mess. I thought that trying to put her first might be the best way to make some progress.
Ahhh...now the light is beginning to flicker on.
Having a 'need' fulfilled (sex), and having fulfilling happiness are two completely different things. You may experience happiness, or feelings of wonderful contentment when your needs are fulfilled, (I personally am wonderfully happy and enormously content after a good italian meal) but personal needs and personal happiness in and of themselves are two seperate....things (for lack of a better word).
Let me ask you. What is the most attractive quality a person can have? Now before you go spouting off 36-24-36...think carefully.
Have you ever met a person who just radiated happiness? Those people seem to always be wearing a smile, their eyes contain a certain light, they just enjoy the hell out of whatever they are doing, no matter what it is, their positive attitude seems to know no limits...they laugh easily, they cry easily, they're out there living life, rolling with the punches, having a little party of one every day of their existence. Know anyone like that?
Don't you just love being around people like that? Have you ever noticed that people like that always seem to have other people around them, drawn like moths to a flame...regardless of their shape, size, coloring or looks...they may not have the 'most' in life (they usually don't), they may not be the 'best' at anything (they usually aren't)...and they
don't care one whit if they are the best or if they have the most because they are just too happy to give a second thought to it...
Ever heard that saying:
The richest people are not those who have the most.
The richest people are those who need the least.
Those Happy People, the ones we all are so drawn to...understand very well the difference between needs and happiness.
I'm not saying that your need is unimportant, because it is supremely important (really). But I do think it is important to make the distinction between the two. I truly believe that when one pursues and fulfills that which makes them happy, having their needs fulfilled takes care of itself.
Think again about that person you know who radiates happiness. And then think of an instance when some hardship befell that person...everyone and their brother who knows that person would probably immediatly drop whatever it was they were doing to somehow rush to that person's aid in whatever way they could. Well, isn't it true? None of us who knows such a person is willing for one minute to risk the dimming of such a light so rare....seriously, the Happy People need for nothing because we who know them won't allow it!
Every single one of us is capable of that kind of happiness. But most of us are so consumed with defining and fulfilling our 'needs' that we never take the time to define and fulfill our happiness.
See where this is going?
Now, if you want to see it, I have this 'chart' I made up for myself when I was pondering and thinking about all of this for myself. It's pretty simple, really. But I'll share it with you if you'd like...for me, it helped me understand the difference between what a 'need' is and what 'happiness' is.
My point in all of this is, when you discover and pursue that which makes you happy, your wife is going to be just sooooo defenseless....
But you must put yourself first in order to discover this. This sounds very ego centered, but it isn't. It's one of those great big stupid-ass paradoxes the universe throws at us for a cosmic giggle, I guess.
You're running. YES!!! If you enjoy it and it makes you happy, keep doing it. You're starting to play golf. YES!!!! If you continue to enjoy it and it makes you happy, keep doing it.
If you want to make a list every weekend with your wife because it makes you happy to talk with her and help her, hey, keep doing it.
If it makes you happy to ride bikes with your girls, or read them stories, or help them with their homework, keep doing it...
If you want to take your wife on a weekend trip because
it makes you happy, then GO DO IT.
See how you must put yourself first in order to pursue your own happiness?
Now...if you were doing these things in hopes of
making another person(s) happy, can you now see where this can run off course almost immediately in all sorts of ways? How all parties concerned can end up on the losing side? How this strategy is a big crap shoot?
How other people choose to respond to your happiness is something beyond your control. But their actions and reactions do not have to have power over your happiness unless you allow it.
Okay. Done rambling. Let me know if you want to see the chart.
Toodles.
Corri
AM:
Quote:
Is it possible that the sensitive guy myth is not really an attraction for some women?
No. Women like guys who are sensitive because it is genuine, not because they are trying to 'get' something in return for their concern.
Women do not like assholes. Women end up with assholes because they got the misguided notion that they can somehow 'change' him. A 'my love will conquer all' type fantasy. Then one morning they wake up to find they are in bed with an [censored].
It's all about giving vs. bartering....
You give because it makes you happy.
You barter because you want something in return.
So start exploring what makes you happy. See post to Sooner.
Corri
Corri,
I've got to tell you - you are my new hero! Okay, maybe that's a little strong, but I find your posts to be filled with wisdom. I would definitely like to see your "chart", if nothing else just out of curiousity.
For most of my life, I have probably been one of those people that radiates happiness. I was always the class clown, always happy and easy to get along with, and people have generally enjoyed being around me. Although I'm a fairly good-looking guy, I've never been so good looking that the women flocked to me just because of my looks. But I've often been able to attract women with my personality - as long as I could get a few minutes to talk to them and just be myself. I'm fairly certain that was the reason that my wife fell in love with me.
But, around her anyway, I haven't radiated a lot of happiness lately. The lack of intimacy in our marriage has for the first time in my life caused me to be depressed - and I know that she can see that, even when I don't say a word about our relationship problems. I'm not walking around in a depressed funk all the time by any means, but she probably never knows when I'll go from being happy and fun to grumpy and pouty. I can understand how that would prevent her from wanting to get closer to me.
Before your post today, I actually realized that being unhappy could do nothing to help my situation. People aren't attracted to unhappy people. But since the source of my unhappiness was the lack of intimacy with my wife, I felt like I could find some magic solution to get her to change, then I'd be happy again and there would be a snowball effect. But it obviously doesn't work like that. I need to do whatever it takes to make myself back into the always happy, always fun guy that I used to be. And if I do that, I'll bet you're right that my wife will want to become closer to me.
Unfortunately, I can't just flip a switch and be "Joe Happy" again. But I can sure try, especially now that I realize how much it might help. The running and golf may be a good start. It's not as if I enjoy running so much (especially after the first week of it), but I need to be getting some cardiovascular exercise and I've known that for a long time. I do enjoy it when I'm done though - stopping is nice! And I'm just learning to golf, being about as far from a natural at it as one could be, but I'm enjoying trying to learn. In fact, I'll probably buy a set of clubs this weekend as I've been using my Dad's old set and they're in pretty rough shape. I'll have to see what else I can come up with. I think that if I can do some things for myself while continuing to do my part around the house and with the girls, my situation could really start to improve.
I had one small (okay, very small) success this morning. My wife doesn't work on Fridays, and this morning she was still laying in bed when I was about to leave for work. The girls were in the bedroom watching cartoons and pestering her. I said goodbye to the girls and gave them kisses and hugs, then leaned over to give my wife the traditional unromantic goodbye kiss, and she pulled me on top of herself and kind of squeezed me as if she was actually interested. I gave her a few kisses on her neck and shoulder and she seemed to enjoy it. Then I got up and left for work, terribly horny of course. I realize that's not much to most people, but it's a lot more friskiness than I've gotten from her in quite a while.
Corri, thanks so much. You've been a great help and I really appreciate it. I look forward to more advice from you in the future.
Sooner
Sooner:
Thank you for your kind words...but really, the stuff I'm spouting to you here is stuff I learned from my shrink and many, many books...more than likely I'm plagerising the hell out of them all...If you find serious flaws in my logic...there's probably serious flaws in my logic. So my disclaimer here is I'm not spouting gospel, I have not spent years of my life researching any of this, it is just my opinion. But it is stuff that has worked for me. If it helps you on your own road, great. If not, well, at least it may be entertaining to read.
Okay, guy, pull out your hip boots...it's getting deep here.
Since I don't know how to attach graphics to this thinga-ma-bob, I'm going to have to describe this chart for you so you can draw it for yourself.
On a piece of paper, draw a circle that takes up about 2/3 of the center. Inside the circle, draw a square so that each corner of the square is touching the line of the circle.
Next, draw a vertical line down through the center of the circle and square, extending the line beyond the limits of the circle.
Now draw a horizontal line through the center of the circle and square, extending the line beyond the limits of the circle.
What you should now have is a circle with a square in the middle of it, divided into four equal quadrants.
On the outside left of the circle, write down Physical Well-Being. On the outside right of the circle, write down Mental Well-Being.
Inside of the circle, but outside of the square, write down Sense of Security (you can do this in each of the four portions of the circle not filled by the square). Got it?
Okay. Now for filling in the square.
Starting on the left side, fill in the top left square with the following:
Physical Survival:
- food/water
- shelter
- clothing
- sleep
In the lower left square, fill in the following:
Physical Stimulation:
- exercise
- touching
- being touched
Now for the right side. In the upper right square, fill in the following:
Inner Stimulation:
- exploration of self
(things like thinking, reflection, prayer, meditation, fantasy, dreaming, creative visualization, etc.)
In the lower right square, fill in the following:
Outer Stimulation:
- exploration of environment
(things like conversations with others, education, you name it...whatever it is with which you engage outside of yourself to stimulate your mental activity).
Now, you are probably thinking to yourself, this is a direct rip-off of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (or whatever the hell his name was.) But I don't see these needs as being a 'hierarchy' or as a pyramid...needing to fulfill one quadrant to get to the next...I see these things as all being equally important to bring about the balance and sense of security of a person. We can argue the point, but that’s not the purpose here.
Each of us needs to determine for ourselves ‘how much’ and ‘what specific pursuit(s) we enjoy’ that brings about the fulfillment of each need we have. I believe we are happy when we are balanced.
This whole chart represents to me the basic 'needs' of a human (or me) to feel a sense of security with themselves and the world. Each quadrant must be fulfilled in order for the whole to be 'balanced.' So for example, if one is receiving over or under stimulation from the exploration of their environment, this circle is going to start tipping, thus throwing off the balance of the other quadrants.
If any of these quadrants are threatened in any way, the entire focus of your being will turn to getting that need fulfilled to the exclusion of all else. For example, if you don't have enough to eat, no place to sleep...your purpose in life at that time is do whatever you must do to find food and shelter to the exclusion of all else. You will probably give a hoot less about 'inner stimulation' until you are secure in the fact that you have enough to eat and a place to sleep. But in the pursuit of finding food and shelter, you are still way off balance.
I personally feel that going for prolonged periods without having each of these quadrants fulfilled can cause serious mental and physical illnesses...but I'm digressing here.
Okay, so my physical and mental well being are wrapped in my personal sense of security and trust. What ‘my happiness’ interacts with on a daily basis is external stimuli. This external stimuli is broken down into two kinds:
Stimuli I can control
Stimuli I can’t control
Everyday, there is a two-way exchange of energy between me and the stimuli. (Action and Reaction).
My experience of the stimuli is colored by my emotional make-up, which include but is certainly not limited to:
Attitude
Physical or mental dependencies/desires
Need to control myself or others
Avoidance of mental or physical pain/unpleasantness
Pursuit of pleasure
Anger/resentment/fear
Exceeding my physical or emotional limits
Unresolved issues
The indication that the balance of my happiness is being threatened is stress. A way for me to immediately deal with a stress is how I choose to act or react to the stress. If I can control the stress, I can choose to stop it (I’m running too fast and I can’t breath; I slow down or stop). If I cannot control the stress, I can control the way I choose to react to the stress (my husband is sending me zingers; I either personalize the zingers and become angry, I or don’t).
Depending on the balance of my happiness when these stresses occur will largely determine how well I act or react. For example, I know if I have been mentally overloaded, I’m tired, I’m late, and the kids are being demanding or uncooperative, I don’t control my actions or reactions with the kids or husband very well. I’m too low on physical and mental energy, and I’m out of balance. I must take the time I need to rebalance or I continue to be a crazed mad woman.
Notice I have been talking about 'needs,' not 'wants.' This chart for me represents basic needs.
How much one needs for each 'need' is the variable, and changes with age and stages of life.
For example, I need eight hours of sleep each night to feel rested. If I go for too many consecutive nights without my eight hours, I start to become unbalanced. When I was younger, I needed more sleep. As I grow older, I may need less.
(I didn't put 'procreation' in my chart either, and that's because it seems to be a very specific need that shows up around puberty. For a woman, she can only procreate for a certain period of time in her life: from puberty to menopause. However, regardless of my age or stage of life, I will always need to touch and be touched. My experience of sex as an enjoyable, pleasurable act will continue my pursuit of it beyond my ability to procreate. Those who do not enjoy sex or experience pain from sex will avoid it. But they will still have a basic physical need to touch and be touched. I was trying to keep adjectives out of my chart, and sex to me is an adjective of a certain type of touching and communication…but if you want to add it, hey, have at it.)
Like I said before, fulfilling needs can be a pleasurable experience. When I have a certain type of meal, I experience great feelings of contentment and what I call 'happiness.' Because I like these 'feelings' when I am fulfilling a need, I can begin to give too much importance or weight to a need.
I need to eat [basic need]. I feel pleasure and great contentment and happiness when I eat certain types of foods. However, my
desire to relive this pleasurable experience can cause me to overeat, and therefore become fat. Once fat, that will cause the entire 'self' to become unbalanced...being fat will threaten my overall physical and mental well being.
I'm not fat...but I do love to eat. How much and how often I want to eat is different than how much and how often I need to eat. And because of the pleasure of this experience for me, I have to keep a very tight rein on this desire, or I will get fat.
Many of us confuse the desire to relive a pleasurable experience as the source of our happiness, and the withholding of that pleasurable experience as the source of our unhappiness.
A want or a desire is the pursuit of fulfilling a specific need. Happiness is the ability to balance the fulfillment of all our needs. When one pursues happiness, one has already done the work necessary to know the ‘what and the how much’ for each need we have.
When the pursuit of fulfilling one need eclipses all others, we have become ‘need’ dependent, and all else falls out of balance. Eventually, the pleasure we receive in fulfilling this one desire becomes less and less, so we repeat or ‘need’ the action more and more to fill us up. And we need to be filled up with this one ‘desire’ because the definition and fulfillment of all of our other needs has been ignored.
Just for clarity sake, I do not think that need dependency is the same thing as addiction (though I don’t really believe in addiction…but that’s another argument).
This chart is far from complete because I haven’t really thought about it for a while. And your chart would probably look a bit different than mine…but the point is, happiness takes a great deal of thought, a great deal of effort, and a tremendous positive attitude. The more we practice it, the better we get at it, and the more automatic it becomes.
Happiness is a choice, an attitude, a way of life. When we know what it takes to make us happy, there are many things we purse to fill up ourselves. I think when you leave this one need you have alone for awhile, and turn your attention inward and onto the other things you need to make you happy, the ‘how much’ you think you have for your need is going to change…if nothing else, you will be looking at it with new eyes.
I can’t guarantee it. But it is a place to start.
Yes, I have thought about all of this. Now you see why I get mentally overloaded.
Corri
Corri,
Thank you for going to so much trouble to describe your chart. The way that you've broken down the basic needs of a human being makes a lot of sense to me, as does the concept of needing to be "balanced" in order to be happy. I've got to admit though that while I'm probably a lot like you with regard to organizing my life through making "to do lists", the chart concept probably doesn't work as well for me. I think that I must handle information a bit differently, and putting my thoughts, needs, etc. down in a chart form as you've done doesn't really help me to see things any more clearly. However, the premise of your chart makes a lot of sense and I plan to spend some more time thinking about the things that you've listed and how each of them affects my state of well being.
Just because the chart concept didn't really click with me, please don't think that your efforts were in vain. You've definitely given me some things to think about and you do a wonderful job of helping me to see things from my wife's point of view. Thank you for caring enough to help me.
Sooner
Hi everyone!
I just hated to see nobody posting on this forum so I thought I'd give a quick update. I've gone over two weeks now without any kind of an argument with my wife and I'm feeling pretty good about it. The last two weekends have been nice. No suddden romance, but I feel like she's becoming more comfortable around me - more open, talkative, etc. As long as I keep my head on straight and don't screw things up I think that things will eventually start improving. It's kind of become a game with me now - trying to make sure that I'm not the one to reset the "intimacy clock".
I've been trying to be understanding, helpful, and loving while also doing more things for myself. Nearly every night after getting the girls to sleep I've either been running or going to the driving range to hit golf balls. Both have been a nice distraction.
Yesterday the whole family went to the lake with a friend of my wife's who has a boat. We had a nice time, and seeing my wife in her bathing suit always gets me a little worked up - especially when the water got choppy causing her to bounce (that tends to put me into a bit of a trance). But although it nearly killed me, I managed to not make any advances last night - that's always tough for me after a day at the lake. My wife's friend (a female), while a nice person and generally fun, is so much like one of the guys that it gets old being around her. That got me to thinking about how happy I am to have my wife. I honestly consider her to be my best friend and I can't imagine spending my life with anyone else. Today I sent her some flowers at work, and on the card I wrote something like "You are my best friend in the world and I can't imagine living my life without you. Thank you for being so wonderful". I truly meant that and I hope that it made her feel good, especially in the midst of all the crap she has to put up with at work. And for once I'm really not expecting anything in return - I just wanted her to know how much I love her and how thankful I am to have her. If I can continue to do that, without expecting her to reciprocate, I think that the intimacy in our relationship will eventually come back. I hope so anyway.
That's about all I have to report. How are things with everyone else?
Sooner
Sooner,
It really sounds like you are in a good state of mind. I've been there before when I had more tolerence for the lack of sex. I applaud your efforts and can only hold out hope for me to return to that state of mind soon.
Right now things remain the same and my anger hasn't gone away. It is very clear to her that I'm not talking about something. I'm just not ready for this conversation again. My wife has a way of making me feel almost solely responsible and I come away feeling like I have more work to do on myself than we have as a couple.
I'm in such a bad state that I'm contimplating a having a PA. I don't know what else to do.....
Thanks for sharing your encouraging journey. Much continued success to you.
w8ting4it
Thanks w8ting. Believe me, I know what you're going through right now as I've been there many times before. I'm not sure why I'm more upbeat at the moment - it's definitely not as though my sex drive suddenly tapered off. I just hope that I can remain in this state of mind because I really think that the longer I can keep my anger, frustration, depression, etc. at bay, the better chance I have of things improving.
Maybe some of the low drive spouses on here can help me out with something. Although I'm doing pretty well at the moment, I've got to admit that I'm curious about what's going through my wife's mind right now. I realize that none of you can tell me that, but maybe someone can offer some insight. Here's the situation as I see it. My wife and I have gotten along wonderfully for two and a half weeks now. Actually, we've always gotten along well - it's just been two and a half weeks since we last had the sex argument. She knows how badly I want her to start making an effort to restore the intimacy in our relationship. I've let her know that I can wait until she's comfortable having sex, but in the meantime it would help me so much if she would just make an effort to touch me occasionally (cuddle in bed, etc.) - but she hasn't made any such effort. I can't understand why, when she acts like the sex argument is the thing that she hates most in the world, she can't put in just a little effort to make it go away. What could be keeping her from trying? Any insight would be appreciated.
Sooner
Sooner:
Not being one to be stingy with opinions, you knew I'd be jumping in here on this one, hm?
I don't know your wife...don't claim to be in her head...but this is my best guess at a situation that sounds very much like my own....
If it has been 2 1/2 weeks since your last sex argument...and you are keeping yourself busy doing other things (YEAH FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!), I'd say right about now your wife is beginning to feel guilty...she's thinking she should have sex with you, but she's pissed that she's feeling guilty. I bet she really appreciated the flowers you sent her the other day, and I bet she was even more surprised when you didn't ask for sex that night.
Right about now, she is waiting for the boom to fall. She's thinking...uh oh...it's been awhile...we haven't argued, he sent me flowers, he's been really sweet...it's coming at any moment now...and more than likely, if you initiated, she'd have sex with you. BUT DON'T DO IT. Please. Pretend like I didn't say that, k?
I'd say she's on the fence right now. DON'T JUMP THE GUN. Remember, you are creating a new dance. It is expected that you would initiate sex now. After all, you've been a good boy, yes? IF YOU INITIATE NOW, SHE WILL THINK THAT THIS WHOLE NEW BEHAVIOR THING YOU'VE GOT GOING IS JUST A NEW PLOY.
But you are a new person now. Your mind set has changed, your motives have changed, your whole reason for being has changed. You are now in this game to make you happy for your own reasons. You know if you do this now, it is just for immediate gratification, not for long term solutions.
Keep going. I know, at least in the back of her mind, she is wondering what the hell is up. I'll bet the farm she has noticed. She may have even said something to you already, if not directly, then indirectly, wondering about you and this, this, new leaf thing you've go going on. Hm?
Keep going. If she doesn't initiate sex on her own, I bet she will at least bring up a 'relationship' type conversation sometime soon.
At which point you can be perfectly honest with her about what you are doing for yourself and why (You are concentrating on making yourself happy and balancing your needs... period. No need to elaborate. Leave her completely out of the conversation). Move on.
Speak honestly and from the heart. This isn't a game. But when this topic does comes up (and I bet it will be soon), talk about what you have been doing for you. You love her, yes, you need her, yes, but you no longer depend on her for your happiness. Kiss her on the cheek, squeeze her hand, smile at her, and head on out the door to go hit your golf balls.
Take care to, uh, relieve pressure so that if the situation does present itself, you aren't so built up with pressure that you, uhm, get ahead of yourself.
And for God's sake let me know if I've come close to predicting this one, would you?
Corri
Sooner:
P.S. Let me know not because I need to be "right" but because if I'm close, I'd say our situations are eerily similar.
And... just personally speaking...the flowers thing would've melted me...and if my H didn't initiate sex after sending that day...or within a day or two at least...I'd be coming unglued inside right about now. But that's just me.
Corri
Corri, just curious about your thoughts about my post to Johanna, Patsi
Corri,
You are again my hero! Actually, you haven't been proven right yet, but you basically told me exactly what I thought might be going through her head although I couldn't have described it that well. I will definitely take your advice on this one - what you said just makes too much sense!
The flowers were beautiful by the way - she brought them home today. I'd already seen them as I picked them out, and I wrote the card myself while at the flower shop. I felt like I'd done well not to initiate sex or act like I was expecting something since sending them, but it's so reassuring to hear you say that. I've remained really upbeat lately around my wife, and I can suddenly hit golf balls pretty well too (just got back from the range a few minutes ago). And believe me, I've been "relieving pressure" every chance I get.
Corri, thank you so much. I really hope that you're right about this, and I honestly think that you can't be off by much, if at all. I'll keep you posted.
Sooner
Sooner:
Okay, now I need some insight. I feel like I "screwed up again."
Last night my H wanted to have sex. I wasn't there. I couldn't get there, mentally or physically. And I know he felt hurt, frustrated, etc.
I HATE hurting him. But I just didn't want to have sex. We didn't argue, but we were both angry when we went to sleep.
This is not a good thing.
What do you think I could have done differently in this situation for him? I would have done a BJ, but at that point he'd say to me, "no, you're just doing it because you don't want to have sex."
Well, yes, that's correct. I'm not doing BJs FOR ME....
What's going on here that I'm missing?
When you and your wife get to this point...you know it isn't going to happen, and you either roll over pissed or you have the argument....what do you wish she would do differently at that point instead of what she normally does?
When we get to this point, I feel like I'm the one completely responsible (which I think sucks...but it doesn't mean it isn't true). And because I feel like I'm the one responsible for either having 'good' sex or sparking the Anger Train, I feel completely manipulated and resentful.
I think I feel like this because at the crucial moment it seems that there are only two unsavory options for me. And I'm sorry, I just don't buy that.
There has to be other ways of looking at this, there has to be more options. Got any suggestions?
Corri
Corri,
Before I launch into my problems I wanted to acknowledge your last post. I’ve had a couple instances where my wife didn’t want to have sex but (feeling guilty, no doubt) offered to give me a HJ (no BJ offers around here!). I felt a bit of disappointment knowing that she was jsut doing it to appease the beast but then excitement to get anything. I wish I had the strength to turn her down, saying I’d wait until she was ready to give herself fully to me. Of course, I could never turn her down, I’m too hungry. If she offered a BJ....I would be so overjoyed I would probably cry. Anything is sex. HJ, BJ, whatever. I don’t care what Clinton’s definition is. It may not be intercourse (by far the most profound expression of love and intimacy) but I, personally, would be thankful for anything. If I never got anything but HJ’s and even BJ’s I would, after a while, get hungry for more variety and profoundity.
What I would suggest in that moment that you turned him down is to conjure up the sweetest voice you can muster saying that you just couldn’t make it very good tonight but offer a HJ or BJ immediately or the full package tomorrow night. The thing is you have to make good on your offer the next day or he will lose faith. It is powerfully devastating to be rejected so you have to make the let down as soft as possible. At least if you have a day to psyche yourself up for sex maybe it will be easier. I’m not sure how women work with this, it would not work with my wife but then you are a lot more open and willing to put effort into your relationship. If my wife took this approach to my advances I would be happily waiting for the next day. In fact, I would be probably whistling and walking on air. Remember how excited he got when you emailed him the other day with a BJ offer. Your situation doesn’t sound that tough. Just appologize for not being able to be as accessible and try to enjoy your man’s virility. The fact that you are even interested in having a better relationship with him is a huge plus. You’re already 3/4 of the way there.
I think you are right on with your advice to Sooner. The key is his being strong enough in his weakest moment to keep his mouth shut and hands in his pockets, which, from my experience is painfully hard to do. I bet Sooner would agree. If he has found some balance outside of the relationship he is doing very well. Getting away from the object of desire in that moment is the safest way to hold on.
I just got back yesterday from a week long business trip and was doing quite well emotionally, even though it was exhausting. I had a lot of time to think and talk about the relationship issues with a close friend (in a functioning relationship with his wife). As soon as I got home a severe depression hit me, a deep sadness. I so needed to be kissed and held and made love to, not just a peck and hug but really welcomed with passion. Not totally unreasonable expectation after being gone for over a week. When I got home the hug and peck were there (which I am actually grateful for) but I did not press for sex and she did not initiate anything. Usually this just makes me irritated, frustrated and lightly bummed out. For some reason my emotions are on the floor right now and the aching is so strong I can’t bear it. I feel so down I’ve decided to go the doctor for antidepressants. I can’t hardly work, I’m tired, headaches, lightheaded, listless, chest pain, questioning reality, insomnia, nightmares, unable to focus on tasks, unmotivated to do anything. I’m having a lot of problems at work right now that are unrelated to my relationship troubles (other than my inability to cope with everything) that are compounding my crisis panic mode. I don’t want this desire for intimacy to dominate my life but I can’t help it; I’ve always been this way.
I did tell her that I was feeling down, then she said she was too so I’d have to deal with it myself. That did not help. I just need to have my batteries recharged and the only person who can do it for me refuses. I know I am a needy person and I put too much emphasis on the importance of a relationship. I am not happy without her. My many hobbies have no attraction for me right now. I have no energy to put into them and they bring little joy. What can I do? I’m even forbidden from discussing this frustration with her. I think this is just wrong, plain and simple. The last time I brought anything up she was ready to leave me so I quickly backed up and smoothed it out. I feel like it was wrong for me to do that but I can’t bear the idea of not being with her. I’m not sure I can survive being alone with her either.
No doubt that my being down is a turn off for her, but then again, everything I do is a turn off for her. What is strange is that she professes to be happy with me and we get along quite well as long as I don’t show my horniness or look at her with “those eyes”. How many women would die to have their husbands look at them lustfully? Well, at least there are a few like Johanna out there.
I’ve tried everything I can think of to become more attractive, attentive and caring. She appreciates and enjoys all of that but it is not enough for her to love me like a husband instead of a cousin or housemate. She doesn’t realize what a wonderful relationship we are missing out on. I am capable of giving so much, just not being allowed to express it.
My soul’s joie de vivre is slowly being extinguished, I must find a way to survive this before too many years are wasted and my life is shortened by depression. I feel like my whole life is so far out of balance that I’m hanging on the lower end of the scale above the abyss.
Any words of encouragement greatly appreciated,
AchingMan
AM:
You've got a lot of things going on right now that have nothing to do with you being a 'needy' person. You are looking at life with the panoramic lense on the camera, and you are not liking what you see, my friend.
I see two significant things going on with you right now. You are overwhelmed by work and home life, and you are feeling helpless. A dangerous combo.
Time to switch lenses and put on the zoom lense. Focus on a tree right now, rather than the forest. That is in part what Sooner is doing. He is focusing on the things, little by little, that are well within his control. He is finding his own victories. As these small victories build, he will begin to feel more in control of his own destiny. He will little by little understand that he is in control of his own happiness. He is out there practicing it right now. This is hard stuff. Remember the old chineese proverb: The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step (or something close to that). Yes, he may be at the beginning of the journey, but hey, he's not standing still! He'll hit hills, he'll hit valleys, and everything in between, but he isn't standing still looking at the same scene day after day. This guy is moving!!
Anyway, my point here is, he has an action plan. He is acting. Acting, doing, being, striving, trying, then trying some more...my goodness, man, get up!! Move! Even if it isn't all that 'fun.' GET UP AND MOVE!!
Focus, AM. I don't have any doubt that you are depressed. At least you have aknowledged it. Now that you know you are, you are going to have to force yourself to get up and get moving. One of the best things you can do for yourself is start exercising. Run. Swim. Lift weights. Roller Blade...whatever. Exhaust yourself physcially. The endorphine release is its own anti-depresant.
Go to the video store and rent funny movies, and watch them each night before you go to bed. Bill Cosby and Robin Williams are my favorites. Laughter also releases endorphines. This is what you can focus on immediately. Small, easy little things. LAUGH.
I know you don't
feel like it. Do it anyway. Make yourself. You have to, 'cuz I don't know you, and I don't live anywhere near you to drop kick you in the ass.
So in the absence of me planting my foot in the nether regions of your buttocks, you will have to ACT in my stead.
Now, go out tomorrow to the bookstore and buy this book: The Power of Your Subconscious Mind, by Joseph Murphy. Read it. Cover to cover. There will be a quiz. I'm going on vacation next week, so I'm going to be asking questions when I get back. You have one week to get it finished.
This is yet another thing you can DO. Read it at night time until you fall asleep in your chair -- after you watch the funny movies. This if nothing else will keep you from fighting with your wife.
You are focusing on you, now. Your entire being, your entire purpose in life is to get you back into anti-depressant mode. When you've reached that point, which of course you will, I have absolutely NO doubt about it, you will then begin to take tiny little steps each day to find out how you are in control of your own happiness and your own destiny.
Each day when the dark thoughts begin to roll in (they will do this, so be prepared...it's comepletely normal), you will stop your thoughts immediately, and turn them into positive thoughts. (Positive thoughts, not sexual fantasies
And you will get busy doing something so that they can't rush back in. Stop living life on auto-pilot. Engage your mind and your heart each day in life. Process what is coming in at you...you will be surprised at how much you've been missing.
Go see your doctor. You must have contact with someone who is in your corner. He may refer you to a counselor, and if he does, I'd highly recommend going. Because, again, it is something you can DO. For you. No one else.
This is YOUR life. You love your wife and you want to stay married. GOOD. That's a positive. Now, within that one boundary, you have limitless potential to improve YOUR life.
Your action plan beginning tomorrow:
Exercise for 1/2 hour, and you must sweat.
Rent two funny videos, one for tomorrow night, one for the next night. I'd recommend a video of a stand-up comedy act. No risk of sex scenes to distract you.
Buy the book, The Power of Your Subconscious Mind, by Joseph Murphy. Start reading the book.
Make an appointment to see your doctor.
Post progress reports here nightly so I can catch up when I get back from vacation. Don't want to hear about your wife (not that I'm not interested, but we're not talking about her right now, we're talking about YOU). I want to hear about your small victories each day. NO MAKING STUFF UP. You're on the honor system, k?
Get where I'm going with this? And if in the midst of reading all this you've thought, "Man, Corri, I don't want to hear this happy horseshit stuff, make lemonade when life hands you lemons' crap..." Well...you have your first opportunity to convert a negative thought to a positive one.
Why are you still here reading? You've got work to do. Let's go. Chop, chop. You're in training now. Sex must take a back seat. No distractions. You've got WORK to do fella....and I promise you this will be the toughest thing you've ever done in your life. And all of us here get to do it with you. So let's go. Move. I'm going to pack now, and give my H a BJ tonight because you took the time to help focus me again...thank you. We had a nice conversation today to clear the air.
Look forward to seeing all those posts when I get back. I will be checking in tomorrow before I go for one last pep talk.
Uhm. Okay, like, you're still here reading...have you NOT been paying attention!? GO! BE! ACT! DO!
Corri
Corri,
I apologize for not responding until now, especially since you've been so helpful to me. I started to type up a reply today at work but then got too busy with work stuff to finish. From your latest post it sounds like you may have worked out your problem, but I'll give you my insight for whatever its worth. Sorry if I'm too late to get it to you before you leave for your vacation.
Quote:
When you and your wife get to this point...you know it isn't going to happen, and you either roll over pissed or you have the argument....what do you wish she would do differently at that point instead of what she normally does?
Man, you know my situation well! That's exactly what happens. When it does, my wife never does anything to make me feel that she cares - she just rolls over and falls asleep, leaving me to lay there with the hurt and frustration building up. I honestly think that if she were just sweet about it, saying something like "I'm so sorry but I'm just too tired (or whatever) right now" then asked me if we could do it in the morning, the next night, or whenever, I would feel so much better. If she would cuddle up to me really close and fall asleep holding me, that would help too.
Quote:
I would have done a BJ, but at that point he'd say to me, "no, you're just doing it because you don't want to have sex."
In that regard, your husband is obviously very spoiled compared to me. My wife would never say that - and if she did I would feel completely loved, especially since I'd know that she was doing it just for me. Sure, I'd rather be able to make love to her and have her enjoy it as much as me, but in a situation like you were in last night, I'd have no complaints whatsoever if she offered to do that.
I'm sorry that I probably wasn't much help relative to your current situation - I think the fact that my marriage is currently so much more sex-starved than yours makes me see things a bit differently than your husband does. I hate to turn around and ask for you insight at this point, but you've been so helpful that I can't resist providing a little more background into my situation.
When my wife and I were dating, the sex was wonderful. However, besides the occasional change of location, she was never much on trying anything new. She's never once given me a HJ. She's given me a BJ once - before we were married - and we've now been married over six and a half years. It was outstanding! But I've never known if she's never done it again because she just absolutely hates doing it, or if she's afraid that she's not any good at it, or some other reason. It's not as if I'm not willing to do similar things for her - I'd absolutely love to, but when I've tried she doesn't seem to be comfortable with it. Granted, I didn't really know what I was doing in that regard until fairly recently, but I've studied up a bit and I'm fairly comfortable that I could become quite good at it. Unfortunately, with the situation as it's been, I never get the chance to try out any of my newly acquired skills. Sure made all of that sound technical didn't I! I'm actually trying to remain as tasteful as possible here.
One other thing that I can't understand. We talked previously about "relieving pressure". I am quite the expert at doing so, and have been for a long time. However my wife claims that she has never in her life "relieved any pressure". Considering what I've read, that seems to be quite unusual, even among females. I mention it because it might tell you something about her sexuality issues - and if it does, maybe you can clue me in. Let's say all of this sex-starved business eventually goes away and we are again having sex frequently. That would be wonderful, and things would certainly be tolerable if that were the case, but I'd like some variety as well. Is there any hope? I realize that there's not much need to be concerned about variety until the frequency issue is resolved, but at some point I'd like to know if there's a way to bring my wife out of her shell and have her become interested in more than just the missionary position. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Gotta go "relieve some pressure" now. Have a great vacation.
Sooner
Sooner:
Thanks for responding...and it does help to know your opinion on how I can respond differently to him when this issue comes up again. It will because that's life. But it's good to know from you and AM what's going on at the moment it happens so I can try to be more empathetic.
Anyway...I'm going to ask a pretty bizarre question here. Is your wife by any chance a Southern Baptist or maybe even Catholic? Barring any particular religion, is she religious -- a frequent church goer?
Sounds like she has some real sexuality challenges...and I can certainly relate to that one...and alot of it stemmed from when I took so many things from the bible and from various churches I attened way too literally. I'd say that only in the last few years have I become more comfortable with the body God gave me, and all it was intended to do.
I won't speak on this any more until you respond. One step at a time, Sooner. Stay focused. Get a little further down the road. Patience. The road of patience, by the way, is paved with tolerance and empathy. The things your wife is facing and thinking, believe it or not, have little to do with you. She's grappling with her own stuff.
Take care. I'm headed to Margauritaville.
Corri
Hey Corri,
Actually, my wife was raised Catholic and I was raised Southern Baptist. Our children are Captists! We now attend a non-denominational church, but I wouldn't say that either of us are overly religious. My upbringing taught me that sex before marriage was wrong (not that I didn't do it), but I've always felt that a vibrant sex life was critical within the confines of the marriage relationship. And the Baptist church doesn't have a lot to say about masturbation, specifically anyway. I don't know a lot about the Catholic church, with regard to their teaching on sexuality anyway, but I do suspect that my wife's Catholic upbringing has a lot to do with her sexuality issues. I'll leave it at that for now and wait to see how you respond. I realize of course that I may not hear from you until after your vacation, but that's fine as this is obviously not a pressing issue - just more of a curiousity issue at this point.
Thanks. Enjoy your vacation.
Sooner
Corri,
Thanks, I actually cracked a genuine smile. I realized that getting my ass kicked by you wouldn't be so bad; it would be nice if some of us here could hang out and hash some of these issues out over a beer.
I will follow your suggestions although my first reaction is "Hell, just what I need, more obligations. Couldn't I just get a BJ like Corri's hubby (lucky bastard!)?"
I have been wanting to get back to the gym; summers always mess up my regimen.
I don't have much time to myself (another aggravation to my problems) so it may take me more than a week to read the book. I will look for it today, though.
You are a studdette,
AM
Corri, in one of your previous posts, you said that you HATE HURTING your husband when he wants to have sex and you do not, and if you turn him down both of you end up going to bed angry. Why not subscribe to Michele's motto, "Just Do It". When he makes it obvious that he is in the mood, rather than deciding instantly, nope, no can do. Why not be receptive to his advances and foreplay, give it some time, and let your body decide what the outcome is. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results and the satisfaction to both of you will be worth the effort. Just a thought, Patsi
Just thought I’d update my situation, for record keeping purposes if nothing else. I’m now approaching 4 weeks since my wife and I had any kind of a fight (the only one we really ever have being the sex argument). We’ve gotten along great, I haven’t initiated sex or put any kind of pressure on her, I’ve been in a great mood around her, haven’t pouted, etc. However, there’s still nothing happening in the intimacy department – no attempts whatsoever by her to cuddle with me, touch me occasionally, etc., much less have sex. Nonetheless, I’m still doing pretty well mentally and don’t see myself screwing things up anytime soon. I’m still trying to exercise about every other night although I had to take a break from the running as my knees and ankles were killing me. I guess I’m starting to get old, although I think my aches are mainly from not using any running muscles for lots of years – as well as cheap running shoes, which I’ve now replaced. In the meantime I’ve been riding my bike, but I plan to resume running within a day or two. Also, I’ve continued to go to the driving range fairly often and I actually played a round of golf (first one, unless you count some par 3 rounds in high school) on Sunday afternoon. I was bad enough to not keep score, but I got better as I went along and actually had some nice shots. Anyway, it was fun and I’ll definitely keep working on my golf game (if I can call it that yet).
Corri, I’m anxious for you to get back from vacation since your input has been so helpful to me lately. I’d still like your take on the upbringing issue that I mentioned previously, although it really isn’t critical at the moment. In the meantime, I guess I could throw out the questions that are going through my head for Corri or anyone else who would care to offer their insight (are you still out there MPT?). Here’s what is floating around in my mind:
1. After 4 weeks (almost) of getting along great, what is my wife thinking? Could she be anywhere close to getting past whatever resentment she’s harbored towards me, at least to the point that she might start making a conscious effort to work on our problems? Corri gave me a great answer to this question before, and I doubt that my wife’s thinking has changed much since then. Nonetheless I’m curious about what could be keeping her from trying.
2. I sent my wife flowers at work a little over a week ago for no apparent reason and afterwards I didn’t initiate sex or do anything that would give her the idea that I expected something in return. Corri stated that the flowers would have “melted her” – and I think that my wife did really appreciate the gesture. However, I assume that any melting has worn off by now. Does anyone have any other suggestions of things that might again “melt” her? While I’ll continue to occasionally send flowers for no specific reason, I assume that doing so too often would become unappreciated or begin to look like a ploy.
3. Is there anything that I can do at this point (besides what I’ve been doing) that might have some positive impact on my situation?
4. When things do begin to improve, I realize that progress will probably be slow – for instance I doubt that we’ll go from virtually no sex to a steady 3+ times a week right away. But if I go about things right, how likely is it that we’ll get back to having sex regularly – multiple times a week – at some point in the near future? I sometimes worry that by going to all of this effort my wife will finally regain enough desire to have one nice “romp in the hay” (no, I don’t actually live on a farm), then we’ll be back at the same point that we are now. I dread the possibility of going through all of this again, over and over. Anyone have any thoughts?
Guess that’s about it. I’m a bachelor with two kids tonight as my wife is out of town overnight on business, so I guess I should get to sleep as one of them will surely wake up soon and keep me up the rest of the night. Sweet dreams!
Sooner
Sooner,
Been on a trip, had a computer virus, and honestly I need to cut back on time I spend on the BB. I'm posting something to Cloudnine's thread ("They keep pulling me back IN!"
) which may have some relevance for you.
Best, MPT.
Quoting MPT:
"They keep pulling me back IN!"
Reference to Godfather (III, I think). Not title of Cloudnine's post.
MPT
Hey Sooner,
I know the questioning you are going through right now. I have been taking a similar road of not pressuring, occasion random acts of giving flowers, steering away from “the argument” with no difference in her attitude or willingness to recognize my problem. I am oddly afraid to have sex at this point, contradictory to the fact that I want it so bad, because of the proberbial “resetting of the clock”. I almost don’t want to have sex again unless it is the beginning of improvement, of real change (I should really emphasize “almost” because I’m so hungry I’d take anything she’d offer). Even if it was reasonably good sex, the fear is that her attitude will be “Well, that was nice; great! now we’re caught up on that for a month or so.” and the couple days after when I’m still glowing with joy from the lovemaking I tend to be still romantic and I always hear “we just had sex a few days ago or last week and you want it again!” I can’t take a mediocre sex life. It is simply not acceptable at this point in my life. Lack of romance is lack of vibrancy and one of life’s greatest joys.
I fear all of that. The weight of rejection is almost as great as the pain of marital celibacy.
I’m wandering a bit here, sorry to get too negative. I think too many gestures of kindness (flowers, etc.) could eventually backfire. Our spouses could get bored with it. A guy that is a typical jerk gets a ton of attention from his wife if he sends her flowers a couple times. Nice guys that do it too much seem to appear soft and boring.
Sorry this isn’t much encouragement. I do think you are doing great, better than I am with the attitude right now. If you can hang on long enough I think it may pay off with the melting of her icey heart.
Good luck to you, my brother in pain,
AchingMan
Sooner - I have been lurking on your thread. Great to see you back. For some background on me check the 180 backfired thread. I am really impressed with everything you and AM are doing for your wives. I'll tell you -if it was me you'd be getting some major great sex after all that emotional attention. I don't know how old your kids are but I have to tell you that as much as I love them - they killed my desire for sex. I have a 10 and 4 yr old., I work full time and do the bookwork for my husbands business. For years I felt like I just could not give anymore. I was pulled in every direction. It is getting better as the kids get older and I had a few things shock me into reality. I just forgot what it was like to love sex.
Keep doing what you are doing. I don't know if she will read SSM. It changed my perspective on everything although it may have just been the right timing in my life for it. I too am struggling how to approach my H on the sex thing as he has been uninterested because I have not been there for him for so long. It has been about a month for us too. I got some good advice from a db coach.
Tonight I am going to ask him if he is wants sex. If he says his typical "it's your choice" my reply will be a casual, upbeat "ok, I understand, just let me know when you are interested". I know he wants it but does not want to give in to his stubbornness. In the past few weeks I have continued with sex after his reply and he would just receive. I understand he doesn't want to get rejected again.
As for your wife - give her time - especially with kids. It took me a long time to realize that there even was a problem. I let my feelings for my H slip to the bottom of the priority list. How does that go - you always hurt the one you love most.... It took me letting go of a lot of resentment (why do I have to do it all.....) it also took me getting jealous of my H's friendship with a co-worker.
Be a chameleon - keep her guessing and keep doing what you are doing.
Dreamit.
Good to hear from you MPT!
I did read what you said on Cloudnine's post - as always excellent, sensible input - and it actually started the wheels in my head turning. I'm too tired right now to sort out my thoughts, but I'll post them soon. Glad you're still around, although I certainly understand feeling that you need to cut back on your bulletin board time. Thanks for stopping by.
Sooner
Thanks AM. Looks like we're still living parallel lives - I just hope that the positive attitude starts to produce some results soon because I know that I can't keep it up indefinitely. Good luck to you as well.
Sooner
Hi dreamit!
I just wanted to thank you for your input and let you know that it was very encouraging. I consider advice from low desire, or previously low desire, wives to be extremely valuable in my situation. My girls are 5 and 2, and like you my wife works full time. Whatever energy she has left after a day at work is quickly taken away by the girls. I'm hopeful that things will start to improve as they get older and become more self-sufficient. In the meantime guess I'll try to be a chameleon. Glad to see that your situation is slowing improving. Best of luck!
Sooner
Sooner,
I took a page out of Corri's book and went with the "lay it on the line" approach. Oops.
Where is that girl, anyway?!
I don't really want to speculate too much about what could be going on in your wife's mind right now. The issue of time is interesting. Time is relative. In your mind, it has been awhile since you guys have had an argument because you're noticing and working hard at not arguing about sex. For her it may not seem as long because she isn't paying as close attention to the passage of time as you are. Kinda like that saying about how slowly a watched pot takes to boil.
Corri is right about upbeat, happy people being attractive. You want to be around those people; you want to be like them; you want them to like you. I think you're doing good there. That is your typical personality for you anyway, isn't it? I hope you feel better getting back in touch with your true self again.
I'm also going to say something I said to you awhile back, to give you hope. As my children have gotten more and more independent, less needy...the sex issue has gotten easier and easier.
Best, MPT
Sooner!!!
I'm back from vacation, and I'm proud to say that I did very well! My H and I had a great time together, and we had a wonderful time with the kids...now I have to concentrate on not letting the routine of my life get in the way of the progress I've made.
So, how is it going for you? I've caught up on your posts...how is your wife acting of late? What are your conversations like? How does she speak to you? What kinds of things are you talking about? Has she initiated any physical contact with you whatsoever? A back rub, a hug, anything?
How's the golf game?
Corri
Hi Sooner,
You're sounding and doing great. All that exercise is going to improve your health too. Many of my girlfriends complain about being "golf widows". Your W doesn't know what she's in for :-)
I'm glad you have not let comments by others derail you from your plan. I personally do not feel that what you're doing is pathetic or as someone put it "what people will do to themselves". What you are doing to yourself is great. Not only will you become more healthy as I stated earlier, you will also become a better husband and father as you practise more patience and tolerance. You will become a better person overall and the fun person you used to be as you let go of your resentment and pressures you have placed on your W and yourself too. (And hopefully the rest will follow, although we don't know this yet) You can't lose out anyway because you will become a better man for it even if intimacy doesn't follow.
You have made a choice to be happy and have fun no matter what. Happiness is really a choice. You can choose to seeth in resentment or choose to be happy with the M that you have (because you did say that other than this issue you have a good M). You will find that intimacy is no longer the ultimate goal as you set about changing yourself and discover that you are having a good time and becoming a better person for it. Keep up the good work man. Believe in yourself and your goals for you are the one closest to your problem and you know your sitch and your W like no one here does. Only you will know what works and what doesn't. We can only give ideas. We are here to support each other not to put each other down or pass judgement on someone else's handling of their sitch. No one is more correct that the other and there in no one magic method that can be applied to all sitch. The M relationship is dynamic and each couple operate differently. What works for one simply doesn't for someone else.
All the best to you and BTW, my H has been very affectionate lately
Can you hear me singing? I guess he's happy now the pressure is off and so am I.
Hi Corri, MPT, just saw your posts. Good to hear you people had such nice vacations and are keeping well.
LH
MPT, Corri, and luvhubby,
Thanks for your kind posts - I was needing them after the lashing I took over on Cloudnine's thread.
Corri, I'm glad to hear that your vacation went so well. Keep up the good work! With regard to my situation, I've definitely noticed that my wife is feeling more comfortable around me. Our conversations have not been relationship oriented at all, but she has been opening up to me a lot more about various things (problems at work, issues with the girls, etc.) that she tends to keep to herself when we're not getting along as well. She's acting like she knows that I'm on her side finally. The physical contact changes have been more subtle, but there have definely been some slight improvements. Longer hugs, more hand holding, a little bit of cuddling, and even a couple of times during the past two weeks that she's seemed to enjoy, and even encouraged, letting my hands and lips wander a bit. There's obviously a lot of room for improvement - I kind of feel like we're on a second date rather than married - but I've resigned myself to the fact that getting back to a normal, intimate relationship is going to take some time.
With regard to the things that I've been doing for myself, I ran Friday night and my knees and ankles were much better, although still a little sore afterwards. Tonight I rode my bike 5 miles (at 9:30 p.m. in a black t-shirt - not the smartest thing to do from a safety standpoint) in order to give my running "injuries" a longer break. I hit golf balls Wednesday night and I'm continuing to improve. I plan to go to the driving range again tomorrow night so we'll see if that trend continues.
Corri and luvhubby, I greatly appreciate your support relative to some of the statements made on Cloudnine's post. You both seem to have an excellent understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish. Corri, you described quite clearly what I meant by "the big picture" when you stated "I think he would be very willing go without sex for a period of time if it indeed is the thing needed to bring about permanent change".
luvhubby, I'm excited for you that your husband is suddenly being so affectionate. Sounds like you're doing great! Keep it up.
Sooner
Sooner:
Man, I have tears in my eyes. Congratulations to you. From a woman's perspective, or at least from my own, how your wife is beginning to respond to you is HUGE.
Quote:
She's acting like she knows that I'm on her side finally.
That's exactly what this is all about. Her opening up verbally to you means she is beginning to let down her guard. And yes, you are correct when you say you feel like you are on a second date...you
are dating your wife again. Just be careful not to rush it. Though the physical signs you've noticed seem subtle to you, they may not be all that subtle for her. They may in fact be very huge for her.
Are you hanging in there okay? Do you mind dating your wife? How does it feel for you, as a man, to see yourself as you are now through her eyes? What does this new trust she is finding in you feel like? How does it feel to you when she opens up to you about her day, about her feelings, etc., that she used to not share with you?
Corri
LH:
Which is your original post? I'm trying to remember the particulars of your sitch...it sounds as though you are making progress!!!! How does it feel? How has he started to change? What have you been doing?
Corri
Sooner,
YES!!! Doing a little happy dance for you.
I know it doesn't seem like much and you feel you have a long way to go, but this looks like progress!
Corri,
Welcome back! Glad your vacation went well. My kids don't go to school for another week. I feel the same way you do
.
LH,
Good to see things looking up for you too!
Best wishes as always, MPT
Hi Corri,
My original post is
here but don't waste your time going through it. I went through some of it myself and can't believe I sounded so whiny. No wonder H felt so pressured. I was full of negatives always second guessing myself. It must be me. When H was not intimate, I did not feel loved etc. Well, I decided to get rid of all that negative self talk and concentrate on accepting and listening harder for Hs love language which is Acts of Service. He did plenty of those for me. I just didn't see them as acts of love before.
When I began to feel assured of his love, I was happy again and stopped all pressure on him. I bought the Love Languages book for him to read hoping that he would speak my love language. He never did (read the book) but strangely he began to be a lot more affectionate (which is my love language of physical touch). I got a lot more back rubs, arms over shoulders, hand holding, etc. He also gave me a lot more validation about his feelings telling me I was a great wife and how he looked forward to the evenings and weekends when we could spend more time together. (I try to validate every chance I get too thanking him for things which he did for me so he would feel appreciated).
We always did have a lot of good times, laugh a lot together (but I was too busy feeling sorry for myself to enjoy them). I decided to enjoy those instead of starting the sex argument and its paid off. H felt less stressed to the point he was even able to joke about it. He would say "Hmmmmm better not stress you up too much or else I would be getting long letters from you." I feel better too working on myself, being less naggy etc. Will update you more if theres more, don't worry but how have you been doing Corri? I see that you are back from your vacation in full force caring about others but what about you? How about an update on your sitch? Start a new thread just for you, we'll all hop in there for you.
LH
Wow, LH!
Seems like things are more than just "looking up!" You sound really good! I'm so glad for you. You may still feel like things could be better or there may be dips in the road, but it sounds like you've got a good handle on what you need to do for yourself. Feels really good, doesn't it?
Best, MPT
I'm picturing MPT doing her happy dance!
Thanks MPT and Corri for being so supportive. I'm by no means out of the woods, but I'm encouraged that the two of you see the minor improvements that I described as being somewhat significant. Getting your perspective helps me to see that my wife is probably putting more effort into our relationship than I've given her credit for. I previously would have broken down and said something to start the sex argument by this point due to the fact that the little improvements that I'm seeing don't seem to be getting us any closer to sexual intimacy. But I now realize that they probably are getting us closer - just a lot more slowly than I'd like. You've both given me some excellent motivation to stay the course.
Corri, I'm hanging in there okay and I don't mind "dating" my wife. Actually, I'd give anything to have those first 5 or 10 dates back right now. It probably would have been more accurate to say that I feel like we just met and are in the "getting to know each other" stage where I flirt with her occasionally and try to make her laugh. If history repeats itself, we'll be making out in a parking lot soon!
It feels good that she seems to be trusting me more and is opening up to me. She's the type that has a hard time opening up to anyone, although she's extremely personable and well-liked. She just handles problems differently than me in that she's not likely to buy self-help books, go searching for answers on the internet, or seek help from another person, even a close friend.
That reminded me of another sign that she's been thinking about our situation. She's always acted like I'm a complete idiot for reading relationship books, looking for answers on the internet, etc. But a week or so ago she forgot to clear her internet history on the computer after reading (I assume) an article about sexual desire gaps in marriages. I wasn't actually prying by the way, I initially thought it must have been a page that I'd been looking at so I went there to find out what it was. Anyway, I thought that was quite positive.
Hitting golf balls went pretty well tonight - less distance but better aim. Thanks for everything and please keep the great advice coming.
Sooner
Hi MPT,
Yes, it feels great and this beautiful phrase you used really helped.
The love was the central core to our marriage. That was firmly there without question. Because of his understanding of that core, variations in behavior (including sexual interest) were the branches blowing in the wind or the leaves budding, growing, changing color, falling away and then returning. PS. Had to go searching for the actual phrase just to reproduce it here. Its in my head but can't quite put it into words the way you did.
How have you been doing lately?
LH
Just wanted to report a little more success. I made love to my wife last night! And for once my wife was truly into it!
Now that I've cleared the first hurdle, I need to make sure that I continue to do the right things in order to keep making progress. When I've reached this point before I've made mistakes and ended up right back where I started. One of those mistakes was to assume that I was out of the woods, either initiating again soon and being rejected or becoming depressed when my wife didn't initiate within the next week or so. Another thing that may have been a mistake was to send my wife flowers the next day. My intent in doing so was to show my appreciation for starting to work on our problems, but in hindsight it may have come across too much like a "payment for services". My wife never actually said anything to make me think that, nonetheless I don't think it's the right thing to do at this point. Here's what I think I should be doing. Corri, please set me straight if I'm off the mark.
First, I plan to keep doing what I've been doing. Being upbeat and helpful while continuing to do some things for myself. Since I'm fairly certain that my wife's love language is acts of service, I thought that after getting home from work I'd try to do something above and beyond my normal responsibilities around the house in order to provide some subtle positive reinforcement. Of course, I won't make any big show of it or act like I'm doing it just because we had sex last night - I basically want her to think to herself "make love to husband, husband becomes more eager to do things for me, hmmmm". Then, as usual I'll probably go hit golf balls when my wife takes the girls up to bed. Also, I don't plan to resume initiating sex at this point. In fact, for the next couple of nights I'll probably make sure not to even touch my wife while in bed. I don't want her to think that any time she makes an effort she'll suddenly get pressured for sex more frequently. Who knows, maybe she'll wonder what's up and initiate again soon. But if not, I'm okay with it. Otherwise, I'll just try to increase her level of trust in me by showing genuine concern about her problems (situation at work right now mainly) and being there for her when she needs someone to talk to.
Am I on the right track here Corri? Let me know if there's anything else that I should (or shouldn't) be doing. Thanks.
Sooner
That's wonderful, sooner! She's a pretty special person, isn't she? So are you! I've got a good feeling the two of you are going to work this out. Keep doing what works!
Best, MPT
Thanks MPT! Yes, she is a very special person. By the way, I didn't specifically request your input only because I know that you're trying to spend less time on the BB, however I hope you know that I consider any input that I can get from you to be quite valuable. You're advice and comments are always welcome. You've been my most enduring advisor and I appreciate you.
Sooner
LH, Thanks for posting that. It reminded me again of how special my H is. I needed that.
Things are going pretty well here except that he's in a crunch time at work. I think we're due for a really good conversation again, but I can wait until things settle down at work for him.
Back in April we also had a very big, unexpected surprise...I got pg! After years of infertility, my current age, and bc(!), it was quite a surprise. I had a sense from the beginning that there was something not quite right though. At the ultrasound in May, my suspicions were confirmed. I chose to let nature take its course (unless a problem arose) and let my body take care of it, but it has now been the longest mc in history as a result!
Last blood test revealed that it's almost over.
Emotionally, it has been a mixed bag. Time has helped straighten it all out. I'm just really ready for it all to be done. And apparently, I needed to tell someone about it because I hadn't planned on mentioning it when I started this post.
Best, MPT
MPT:
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Corri
Thanks for the thought, Corri, but I'm afraid at the ultrasound there was a very nice fetal sac, but no baby in it. But I appreciate the sentiment!
Best, MPT
You're a very considerate man, sooner.
Of late, I've been spending lots of time on the computer though, cleaning up after the virus
. There is a lot of waiting for things to finish running, etc.
MPT
Sorry to hear about the longest mc in history MPT. I was about to offer my congratulations as well as I hadn't yet figured out what mc meant. Anyway, I hope that you're feeling well both physically and emotionally and that things get back to normal soon. By the way, knowing what you've been dealing with I appreciate your happy dance on Monday even more.
Sooner
MPT:
I feel like an ass. Sorry for misinterpreting...too many abbreviations I guess.
My sincere apologies.
Corri
Sooner:
High fives all around!! Whew Whew!! Oh, I am so happy for you!! She initiated, too!? Fantastic!!
Yes, yes, yes, continue what you are doing!! And I think your attitude about immediate future endeavors is a good one, too. Preparation and a solid mental attitude is the best.
You know, I was wondering if you know what your wife really means when she says she feels pressured? This is what it meant to me (still does), and I wonder if it could be similar for her and others (MPT, LH?)
When she says she's feeling pressured, what that means is she truly is feeling pressured...not by you, per se, but probably by her desire of wanting to please you and the anxiety of failing you...again...polar opposite feelings warring inside.
Does that help at all? Knowing this, do you see why her knowing you are on her side is so important to her? She wars with herself emotionally, and you war with yourself physically...the emotional strain and pain that comes from "pressure" is every bit as deep as the physical and emotional pain you feel when rejected.
I'm not saying this as a criticism of you or anyone else. But I believe being empathic and tolerant of our spouse’s feelings and experiences, though very different from our own, teaches us patience and compassion. And through patience and compassion for our spouses we learn trust and how to express love.
Though your wife has not brought it up, I think she does know how important it is for her to understand the significance of your desire gaps (hence you finding the web site bookmark). You continuing to act in an empathetic and tolerant manner towards her, and continuing to be the upbeat and happy guy you are, I believe will encourage her to continue to find the answers she is seeking, and act in an empathic and tolerant manner towards you.
This process you and she are going through doesn't mean that you won't ever feel angry or frustrated again...but it does mean that when you do feel this way the next time (because you will), you know where it's coming from and why it is happening. It doesn't end the anger or frustration, per se, but you will now consciously understand, where before you didn't necessarily, that you are at the crossroad again...will you follow old patterns of response, or new?
Being able to act or react consciously instead of impulsively is sooooooooooooooo much more empowering. I mean, anger is typically a defense mechanism to keep someone or something from hurting us....and typically when people lash out in anger, it is because a nerve has been hit...it's the signal a person has been hurt.
My point being, if you initiate, she says no, allow yourselves the freedom to initiate and decline and end it right there. Do not allow misinterpretation of natural impulses and freedom of choice to spiral into anger and hurt....because they simply don't have to.
I think it is crucial for her to understand how important physical communication is for you, and I think your best shot at encouraging her understanding is through your own efforts.
I think I'm getting preachy here...and probably repeating myself from earlier posts, sorry. I'm trying to be encouraging and I don't think it's coming out correctly
Regardless, I am so happy for you
Keep us posted.
I have to go soak my foot now...can't tell you how much it hurt wrenching it out my throat earlier with MPT.
Corri
Hey LH:
Sorry I'm just now responding to your post. I am SO GLAD things are working better for you and your H. It sounds like the Love Language book is one that really triggered answers for you, and that is awesome. Isn't it amazing to take a few mintues sometimes to look back at where we were, compare it to where we are now, and realize just how far we've come? I think it is important to do that sometimes.
Thanks for the welcome back and for asking how things are going with me. My situation has improved like 5,000% since last February. We've hit a few bumps, but I think that had more to do with outside stressors (new jobs, etc) than us regressing. I think we're back on track now...and when we do hit the bumps, I immediately go into 'fix it' mode rather than 'complain' mode because I don't ever again want to be where we were.
I quit my really well paying job in June because my H got a promotion at work that allowed for me to do so. I had no idea how burned out I was until I finally had the courage to just walk away...I wanted to spend more time with my kids and slowing my life way the heck down. It took some time for me to adjust because I was so used to running at 500 mph all the time...and then when I didn't have to, it caused me some bizarre stress.
But I was never, ever bored like I was afraid I was going to be...I've been a web designer for the last 10 years and it has been an enormous creative feed for me for some time...now, it's like if I never design/code another web page again in my life it will be too soon.
So I'm in the phase of my life of redefining what I want to do now...what will feed my creativity, but not take over my life. I do freelance web work just to make some pin money, but it isn't really 'feeding' me if you know what I mean.
So I've been dabbling, doing a bit of writing...got a new dog (oh THAT went over well with my H...slept on the couch with the new dog last night
) I'm trying to get into some kind of lasting exercise regiment for myself...I'm thinking of taking guitar lessons 'cuz I always wanted to be able to do that... and then when my kids get home, I am so much more relaxed that family time is something really, really enjoyable again.
So, in a sense, I'm kind of doing a personal wandering right now, trying to figure out what I want to do with my life...and I can't tell you how much I've surprised myself to find I'm not really in that much of a hurry to figure it out.
I've never been so relaxed in my entire life. I'm enjoying it thoroughly because I'm very well aware of the fact that I have to take advantage of it while I have the opportunity.
I'd like to create my own web site...one that helps people... kind of like this one...but more, too. I'm still dabbling with the idea...if anyone wants to brainstorm, I'm all ears.
You know, I would so like to meet all of you one day...just to talk face to face...put a real person with these code names...wonder if that's healthy?
Anyway, that's where I am right now...thanks for asking. I'm taking up Sooner's thread here...I think he might be getting close to having to start another!
Take care. Talk soon.
Corri
Hello Everyone,
I do feel like I've missed out on a conversation here. You see, I live about 12 hours ahead of you guys (in another part of the world - these problems are universal you know) so when I log on in the morning (thats your night), I see that you've been busy while I was asleep!
MPT, so sorry to hear about your MC. I hope you are recovering well. We know you are cos you sound like a strong lady.
Sooner, Good to hear of your progress. Maybe, now's the time you can leave the SSM book somewhere accessible to your W so she could have more reference material but PLEAAASE don't be obvious about it (Just don't hide it in your drawers is what I mean, put it in the common library/study where you both use). Just a thought, but keep up what you're doing. How's the golfing. Any improvements?
Wow Corri, you are making real changes in your life and loving every minute of it aren't you? I love the idea of your personal website. Would love to see your creativity.
LH
Hey Corri,
Thanks so much for all of your support and for helping me to better understand what my wife might be going through. It actually does help a lot!
For the record, our "session" last night was more of a mutual initiation, if that's possible. I came to bed late, long after my wife had fallen asleep, and her arm was sort of stretched out towards my pillow. So I just laid a hand on it and was about to go to sleep. She sort of moved and made an mmmm noise like she liked it, so my hand slowly worked its way up her arm (over the course of probably 20 minutes). Upon reaching her body the mmmm's got louder and things began to progress a lot faster. Does that sound sort of like a mutual initiation? I suppose that I was technically the initiator, although that hadn't been my intention at the outset.
I think I did pretty well tonight. This will probably be really boring, but I wanted to remember what I did for future reference - just in case it does any good. First, I offered to pick up the girls from day care - which I do most of the time anyway. After getting home, my wife needed something from the store so I went out and got it - again nothing unusual. She made dinner (I had offered to grill but it started pouring outside before we started cooking), and after dinner I did all the dishes. Again, nothing really unusual. As I was finishing the dishes, my wife started giving the girls a bath. I took out the kitchen trash and remembered that it was trash night, so I went upstairs to see if the cat box needed to be cleaned out. If so, I could clean it and use the excuse that I just wanted to get it done before putting the trash out. As always, the cat box was gross, so I cleaned it up, vacuumed around it, added more litter, and took out the trash. The cat was my wife's, so besides when she was pregnant she's always taken care of the litter box. I clean it occasionally, but not often - so that was something different. Then I went around the house and gathered up all the trash, took it out to the garage, then put the trash can out on the curb. Then I helped get the girls upstairs and said goodnight to them, at which point I headed to the driving range. Didn't do too bad (for me) but no major improvements tonight. Trying to correct a bad slice with my woods.
Sorry to put everyone through all of that. I have a habit of making a short story long. By the way Corri, I think you'd do well with your website idea. You always give very sensible, down to earth advice - and you don't pull any punches. I'll let you know if I come up with any brilliant ideas for you, although that's probably unlikely.
Luvhubby, thanks for your encouragement as well. I'd like it very much if my wife would read SSM. She knows where it is - she tucked it away in a cabinet the last time I asked her to read it. I won't even mention it, but I'm hoping that she'll eventually become curious enough about it to read it.
I'm playing golf on Monday with my two best friends from elementary school. I'm sure the course will be busy being a holiday, so I'm just hoping that none of my errant shots hurt anyone. I'm off to bed!
Sooner
MPT:
I wish we could send private messages with this BBS, but...
Anyway, I'm really embarrassed that I misread your posting and offered congrats to what must have been a very painful experience.
Please accept my apology and heartfelt condolences.
Corri
Hey Corri,
If it makes you feel any better, I misread MPT's post also and would have done the same thing had you not done it first.
Sooner
Please do not worry about it! Really. I'm terribly sorry I didn't write my post well. I use "mc" in another context and it just slipped in over here, w/o my even realizing I was using an abbreviation!
Best, MPT
Hey:
How are things? Still doing okay? Any trouble with coming down from the high of the other day?
Thanks for the support the other day...MPT is very gracious, though, so thanks to the both of you. I'm a little bloody from another thread, and I'm thinking that MPT's idea of creating a little distance from the BBs might not be a bad one...
Keep us posted.
Corri
Hi Corri,
Thanks for checking up on me. I'm doing fine - although a little taste definitely does get the mouth watering, know what I mean? Things continue to go pretty well with the wife. She's quickly becoming more comfortable with occasional flirtatious touching (mainly away from the bedroom to keep her from feeling pressured) and she's continuing to open up to me. My 2-year old got sick last night before I went to bed so I brought her downstairs and put her in our bed - pretty much ruled out the possibility of a repeat perfomance. But I'm hopeful that it might happen again soon - my wife is kind of starting to get that look in her eye.
I've kept up with the "bloody" thread and I think you've done fine. I had written up an argumentative reply to a couple of the posts that were directed at me, then I decided that posting them wouldn't really help anyone. So I've kept my mouth shut. My intention with my one post on that thread was to stir things up a bit and get the dialogue going with those who could really help. I think I succeeded in that respect.
I know what you're saying about getting away from this BB for a while - I've been thinking the same thing. Hope you have a great holiday weekend.
Sooner
Hi everyone. Just a quick update for lack of anything better to do at the moment. I'm starting to worry that the look in my wife's eyes that I mentioned the other night is already gone. Granted it's only been a few days, but right now I'm dying to make love to my wife and she doesn't seem to be the slightest bit interested. I'm still trying to stick with the no pressure approach, but it's hard (literally! - sorry, couldn't resist).
We've been busy since Friday - 50th birthday party out of town for an uncle Friday night got us home late. Saturday around noon we headed to my wife's parents house to drop off the girls then the two of us went to see my Sooners play football Saturday night. We ended up so badly soaked from the rain that we bought clothes at the bookstore on the way out of the game and changed before stopping off for a late dinner. We stayed the night at my wife's parents then came home today. I met my Dad to hit golf balls late this afternoon (supposed to play tomorrow with some buddies if we don't get rained out) and after getting the girls to sleep tonight I went and ran. After I got back my wife was still up, which is unusual for her. She eventually laid down in bed with the TV on, and I laid down beside her (still clothed and not really ready for bed) kind of rubbing her back and hoping to spark an interest in fooling around. But she acted annoyed that I was touching her so I said goodnight and here I am. Not really the progression that I'd hoped for. Needless to say I'm a little down at the moment.
Wish I had something more exciting to report.
Sooner
Sooner:
If it makes you feel any better, I got shot down last night myself.
Since your wife is still exhibiting behavior outside the norm, my guess would be that she probably wanted to continue 'hanging out' with you. Your night sounded kind of cool to me, so maybe she just wanted to be near you.
Corri
Sorry, I meant to say your weekend (instead of 'night') sounded really cool to me...like the two of you really enjoyed yourselves together doing things outside the norm.
Corri
Corri,
Sorry to hear that you got shot down, but I see that you made up for it the following night so I'm happy for you in that regard.
Yeah, my wife and I actually had a pretty nice weekend together. I enjoy doing things like that with her, but it would sure be nice if romance could again be a regular part of our life together. I miss so much the times when she initiated regularly, and when I could initiate knowing that she would be responsive rather than annoyed. Maybe we're slowly making progress, but it sure doesn't feel like it sometimes.
I see that you hate golf! I played yesterday (my second time now) with my two best friends from elementary school. It rained on us nearly all day which didn't help anyone's game very much, but we still had a great time and it was nice not having to fight any crowds. Both of my buddies are fairly regular golfers and I was encouraged that they both seemed to be impressed by how well I was doing for just having taken up the game - even complimented my swing which was a surprise. I actually outdrove them occasionally and had quite a few good shots throughout the day. But I'm quite inconsistent - I can't seem to string together many good shots at this point. Also, I definitely need to learn how to chip and putt. Anyway, it was a lot of fun and great exercise walking 18 holes through a "swamp". I'll definitely stick with it and try to improve.
Hope all is well with you.
Sooner
Sooner:
Quote:
Yeah, my wife and I actually had a pretty nice weekend together. I enjoy doing things like that with her, but it would sure be nice if romance could again be a regular part of our life together. I miss so much the times when she initiated regularly, and when I could initiate knowing that she would be responsive rather than annoyed. Maybe we're slowly making progress, but it sure doesn't feel like it sometimes.
I know, I know... take it one day at at time...
Hey, I'm curious how she has been this week since you gave her that backrub the other night and you felt her tense up... has she withdrawn at all, or is she still doing okay?
On to golf...
Quote:
I actually outdrove them occasionally and had quite a few good shots throughout the day. But I'm quite inconsistent - I can't seem to string together many good shots at this point.
Welcome, my friend, to the wonderous game. Ah, golf, where we pay to be frustrated, willingly humbled, and all it takes is ONE brilliant shot to convince us to come back out and do it all over again.
It's a great game... at least it is on the days we score well. Does your wife play?
Corri
Quoting Corri:
Hey, I'm curious how she has been this week since you gave her that backrub the other night and you felt her tense up... has she withdrawn at all, or is she still doing okay?
I don't think that she's withdrawn at all - but she's not advancing any either. I could use a nice advance about now! In your opinion Corri, should I just stick with what I'm doing or is there something else I could do to make this whole process move a bit faster? Just curious if you have any more ideas.
Sooner
Oh, forgot to answer a question. No, my wife doesn't play golf although I know that she played a little bit years ago. I don't think that she has any desire to play at the moment however. I'm sure she could pick it up easily if she wanted to - she was a star athlete in high school and went on to play one year of college basketball before deciding that it was too much work when combined with classes.
Sooner
Sooner:
I'm thinking deeply about your recent posts...I'll post thoughts as soon as they have geled into coherency.
Corri
Quoting Corri:
I'm thinking deeply about your recent posts...I'll post thoughts as soon as they have geled into coherency.
Thanks Corri - I always look forward to your replies. Just make sure that you don't break any blood vessels on my account - I'd hate to have that kind of guilt hanging over me!
I need some help here. I've been awake since around 3:00 a.m. and can't go back to sleep - having a "mini relapse" with regard to the "plan" that I've been following. Here's some background - sorry that I tend to provide more details than are really necessary. Can't resist for some reason.
Got home from work last night and took my oldest daughter to dance class. We got back about 7:30 and my wife had most of dinner ready except for some stuff that I needed to grill. Grilled, ate dinner, and cleaned up the dishes as my wife got the girls ready for bed. Then around 9:00 when she took the girls upstairs to bed, I headed up to the driving range. Got back around 10:30 and as usual my wife had fallen asleep upstairs. I looked at the newspaper, read through some posts on this bulletin board, etc. and went to bed around Midnight. So far, nothing out of the ordinary as of late.
At some point after I was asleep my wife got into bed, still wearing jeans and the shirt (top?) that she'd worn to work yesterday. We woke up a little after 3:00 a.m. to my 5-year old crying after falling off her bed and hitting her head on the nightstand. We both ran upstairs and a few minutes later I went back to bed as my wife laid down with the girls to get them back to sleep. A few minutes after that my wife crawled back into bed, still fully clothed, and we small-talked briefly. As we were trying to go back to sleep my leg brushed against hers just barely and she scooted away from me. This started to make me feel like she can't stand to even touch me (and remember, she's wearing jeans still). After laying there hurting inside for a few minutes I asked her if she would just cuddle up to me. She made an aggravated hmmmph! sound and scooted just a bit closer so that she was barely touching me. Trying to keep from starting an argument, I moved away as it was obvious that she didn't want to touch me and I layed there until I thought she was asleep. Then, I got out of bed. My wife wasn't quite asleep and asked what I was doing so I told her I couldn't sleep, turned off my alarm, and started to walk out of the room. She said "yeah you can, come back to bed" and I briefly explained that I was a little upset over what had just happened, couldn't go back to sleep, and didn't want to start an argument. I tried to hold back any emotion but I'm sure she could tell that I was getting teary-eyed. Then I came in here and got on the computer.
Just after I started typing this post, she came in to see what I was doing, then sat down and we talked briefly (and calmly - no arguing). I explained in a bit more detail how much it bothers me that she won't even touch me and that I feel like our problems go beyond sex but don't understand what is causing them. She proceeded to explain how much stress she's dealing with at work, how from the moment she gets home the girls are climbing all over her, how she never gets any time to herself while I do, etc. She went on a bit and basically justified why she never touches me (never gets enough sleep, can't sleep well when we're touching, etc.). I basically told her the same things I've said before - how much the lack of touching, etc. hurts me, how I hold everything inside day after day because I don't want to add to her stress by making her feel bad, how I've been doing more things for myself lately basically out of necessity, how much I've tried to be supportive of her in her situation at work, how hard I've been trying to avoid getting into our usual argument, etc. With nothing really resolved, she left to go get in the shower.
Sorry for the length of that. I understand my wife's problems and I sympathize with her, but I honestly think that there will always be some sort of problem in her life that, in her mind, will justify us not having the intimate relationship that we should have. I also think that our marriage will not survive if that's the way things stay. Beyond that, I'm at a complete loss and need to know if anyone sees any hope for my situation or can tell me what we can do to resolve our problems. Correction - what I can do to resolve our problems since I'm the only one that see's our current situation as being a problem. By the way, I really do believe that my wife loves me but that she is completely clueless as to how much this is hurting me. Telling her that I'm hurting doesn't seem to make her understand.
Please give me some advice.
Sooner
Sooner:
I hit an enormous low point last night myself. Jeese, maybe it's the moon...we all seem to be hitting rock bottom.
If you need to bail out and cut your losses, Sooner, no one is going to blame you. Man, you have tried, God knows you have.
Hang with me. I'm going to ramble for a moment.
I think one of the reasons I hit rock bottom last night is because when my husband got home, I had been thinking of all you on this board who are so like him, and I asked, "honey, what made you hang in there? What made you change?"
And he looked at me and said..."Nothing made me hang in there. I was as close to the end of my rope as I could get. I think you were the one who did the changing."
Well, hitting me across the face with an ice cold wet towel couldn't have been more shocking. I can't verbalize why this was so disturbing to me...it didn't really hurt, per se, but it knifed through me. I don't know why, but it's irrelevant anyway. But I did do a tailspin into the deep blue.
My dog woke me up at about 4 a.m. this morning, and damn near pissed a river all over my house before I could get his butt outside. It wasn't his fault...he's not used to holding it and being an indoor dog...but that didn't make me any happier to be cleaning up dog piss at 4 in the morning.
But as I was scrubbing and cleaning, I did notice that I wasn't feeling despondent anymore. And then I wondered why...
I remember my shrink telling me once in one of our sessions, "all it takes is for one of you to make a change...sometimes a significant change, to save your marriage. I can't give you a specific time frame for it to work its magic...all I can tell you is that if you are committed to change, it will take as long as it takes. And once those changes have occurred, the time it took for you to get there will be worth all the struggles and pain you've faced...you will look back on it and say to your spouse, remember when we were there? You will appreciate and revel in the happiness you now share."
I thouht he was spewing a bunch of sh!t at me at the time.
Then I realized, as my H said, I probably was the one who changed, where all along I had thought it had been him. Right now, I understand it doesn't matter a fig who changed first. The fact is, one of us did, and it was enough to bring about change in the other. We almost didn't make it. But 'almost' doesn't count...except in horseshoes and hand grenades.
I read an article about Mother Theresa once...I cannot fathom that woman. She's going to be named a saint one day, I'm sure. Anyway, I only remember the gist of the article. It was something along the lines of her talking about her 'calling' in life...and the most difficult things she had ever faced. One of the things she mentioned was when she worked with the third world AIDS children. Emotionally, it was a very difficult thing for her to deal with. Day after day she was there until one night, she cried herself to sleep wondering how she was going to get up and do it again the next day. She didn't think she had anything left to give.
But the next morning she got up, and she gave some more, thinking surely it was going to be the end of her. "In giving, when I thought I had no more to give, instead of finding the pain and desolation I was expecting, I only found more love."
I don't know what to tell you, Sooner. There may be no resolution to your situation. You may in fact have nothing left to give. I think your wife hears you, and I think you hear her.
But maybe in the moment of asking her to cuddle, rather than asking something of her, you can offer something to her. "God, you are a great woman. But you look exhausted. Come here, honey, and just let me hold you for a few minutes. Nothing else. You just look like you could use a hug, and I know I need one."
I don't know, Sooner. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes it isn't.
The road you are on is a tough one, and you will continue to experience ups and downs. It is going to take as long as it takes to get to the end of it. If you can't make it, you just can't. But hang on as long as you can. That's all you can do.
Corri
Corri, this is just a guess but I would imagine that the reason that your husband's comment hurt you was that he was saying, "Nothing made me hang in there." I think that all women want to hear, YOU made me hang in there--because I love you to the ends of the earth, dear!!
Also, this may not apply to you, but I would be a little resentful of being the one who changed, ya know?!? Because, by definition the changee is the one who must have been 'wrong'. In real life, there is no right and wrong. Well, that's not true. There is right and wrong, but it is usually both parties that are right and wrong.
He was brutally honest and I can totally see how it would sting a bit. Congrats to you for working it out in your head and turning it into a positive.
Thanks Corri. I'm not bailing - not right now anyway. I'm committed to change and I suppose it will take as long as it takes. And I agree with your shrink that if my wife and I ever get to where I'd like us to be it will be worth every bit of my struggles and pain. But sometimes I wonder if getting to where I'd like us to be is even possible. Right now I'm lonely and I'm hurting inside - but I haven't given up. I just need a boost every now and then, and the only place that I know to find one is on this bulletin board. Thanks for all the boosts that you've given me Corri.
Sooner
Sooner:
Quote:
Thanks Corri. I'm not bailing - not right now anyway.
Good! Glad to hear it!
Quote:
But sometimes I wonder if getting to where I'd like us to be is even possible.
Haven't we all...buy the book, "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind," by Joseph Murphy. It's a short book, but an awesome read. It'll give you something to do, if nothing else.
Quote:
Right now I'm lonely and I'm hurting inside - but I haven't given up.
Yep. Yes you are. Wish I could make it go away for you, I really do. Please know that if I could, I would. Small consolation, I know.
Quote:
I just need a boost every now and then, and the only place that I know to find one is on this bulletin board. Thanks for all the boosts that you've given me Corri.
Ask any time.
I gotta take a breather for a few days and get some work done. Keep posting...
Corri
I think you deserve a breather - get away from this stuff for a while. Don't worry, I'm sure we'll still have problems for you to solve when you decide to come back.
Sooner
Quoting sooner1992:
She proceeded to explain how much stress she's dealing with at work, how from the moment she gets home the girls are climbing all over her, how she never gets any time to herself while I do, etc. She went on a bit and basically justified why she never touches me (never gets enough sleep, can't sleep well when we're touching, etc.).
Hello Sooner,
I can totally identify with what your W was saying. In fact I just told my H the very same thing yesterday! I have no more time for me. Its really very exhausting. I can't sleep, eat, read or do much of anything uninterupted. No matter how much "daddy" helps at home its usually the "mummy" who gets the burdened with most of the load.
We don't sleep touching either because you get poorer quality sleep that way. I am not in the least bothered by it. Sleep is serious business here especially when we're both so sleep deprived so we do our cuddling at other times.
I think you have made great strides. Previously you would have said, we had the sex argument again. I feel unloved because my W can't bear to have me touch her. Now you are well aware that your W loves you. When she turns away from you in bed it is because she NEEDS to have better sleep, that is all, it has got nothing to do with not being able to bear your touch and you know it. You did not even have an argument. (So I wouldn't call it a mini relaspe, I would call it a positive move forward) You both spoke calmly and told each other what were your individual issues. Good for you. Whats even better is you did not add to your Ws stress by starting an argument and she was concerned enough to get up and check on you although all she must have wanted is to get some much needed rest) You heard your W. I am sure she heard you too and has noticed all the changes you have been making. The fact that she has even started to read up about SSMs shows that she is concerned about the issue as you are too. Be patient. Things won't always be this way. Your kids WILL grow up and prefer each others company than you and your Ws and won't be "all over her when she gets home" in no time at all. You WILL have more time for each other.
Continue to be affectionate out of the bedroom when your W is not looking busy/stressed. How does she react to those times? Your Ws job sounds very stressful. Is switching or quitting a possibility? It is a major change but sometimes all that stress isn't neccessary and not good for health and relationships (as we know only too well). The money isn't worth the stress unless you absolutely need it and the best job is no longer the best if its so stressful. Would she consider a change? (although change is in itself stressful too and you may have to bear with it for awhile too) Sooner, you know your Ws stresses. It has got nothing to do with you. If you could help resolve/remove some of those areas perhaps it might help? Don't take the negative stand that there will always be some problem in her life that justifies the lack of intimacy. It may not be the case at all.
LH
I would like to add that I think your W also needs help on how to manage work and family life and other stresses. How not to let stress overwhelm and affect your R with your spouses etc. If you could find some reading material on those areas she might be more inclined to read them than reading about lack of intimacy etc and I think it would help her get into the correct frame of mind to manage her problems.
luvhubby,
Thank you for your post and for helping me to understand what my wife is going through. There's really nothing she's told me that I don't believe - I can tell that she's overwhelmed right now - but it helps a lot to hear it from someone else. Gives me a slightly different perspective. And I agree that no matter how much I help, or try to help, she's the one bearing most of the burden around here.
When my wife and I first started dating, she loved to sleep holding each other and I didn't really care for it. Not that I minded the cuddling one bit, but I couldn't get good sleep. So I definitely know where you're coming from, and for that matter where my wife is coming from. If it weren't for the fact that she doesn't seem to have any interest in cuddling at other times I probably wouldn't mind at all. But anymore when we're in bed together that's the only chance we ever get to be alone. And we don't really spend that much time in bed together considering that my wife always falls asleep upstairs when it's her turn to take the girls to bed. They always seem to outlast her, where with me they usually fall right to sleep. I guess it helps though that I'm a night person and don't have to get up quite as early as my wife. I'd gladly take the girls to bed every night, but they want their mommy and she likes taking them to bed and reading them stories. Anyway, I've digressed, but I just wanted to point out that I know where you're coming from on the "touching while sleeping" issue.
I appreciate your encouragement relative to how I handled the situation last night compared to how I would have previously handled it. One positive, besides the fact that we were able to discuss some things calmly rather than having an argument, was that by the time I finished my post (around 6:30 a.m.) she acted as if everything was fine. After our typical argument there's usually of couple of days (at least) of tension and resentment before things get back to normal between us. And I'm fairly sure that she took some things from the discussion rather than just forgetting about it. I hope so anyway.
My wife is becoming more comfortable with me being affectionate out of the bedroom, although we still have a long ways to go. But we're making progress at least. Her job is stressful, although it wouldn't be if not for having to deal with a crummy boss and a lot of politics. Switching jobs or quitting really isn't a possibility at the moment, but we hope that it will become a possibility in the near future. I agree that quitting, or at least doing something less stressful with shorter hours, would be wonderful for her and for us as a couple. Her being able to make some sort of a change is definitely on our wish list.
I agree that my wife could use some help concerning how to manage work, family life, etc. Besides being very skilled at her job she tries to be Supermom - and does a pretty good job. Unfortunately she has a hard time saying no - wish that carried over to the bedroom! Tonight she took our 5-year old to an introductory meeting about Girl Scouts (Brownies, Blue Birds - whatever it is at that age) and guess who's the new leader. Just an example, but a pretty good one. With regard to reading material, she heard about something called "Hurried Woman Syndrome" and thought it sounded like her. She bought the book and read at least some of it, but I don't know if she ever finished it. Ironically, it included some chapters on loss of sex drive - that's probably where she stopped reading.
Sorry I've gone on so long. How are things going with you? - haven't heard much from you lately. Give us an update when you have a chance.
Sooner
Sooner, I could have written this last post at one time, except that I am the mom in our situation. But I feel for ya! It can get awful lonely when your spouse wants to sleep instead of cuddle, and there is no time during the day carved out for you two.
We also experienced the dilemma of him falling asleep while putting our daughter to bed. Then he was so groggy that sex was out of the question. It took a long time but I finally got him to agree that us spending NO time together was not healthy for our marriage. I would shake my head and wonder, Does he really think that we will just pick up where we left off in 20 years after the kids are gone?! We'd be strangers!
So we had an intense conversation one night and we made some changes. The first is that I now put the kids to bed, because I can stay awake easier. The second is that he must spend 15 minutes with me at the end of the day to reconnect. We can read together, watch TV together, talk, whatever, but it has to be just us ALONE (that heavenly word for people with small kids). We don't always do this, for one reason or another, but it is a good practice to get in.
These two changes alone have made a big difference in our lives. I realize that they might not be applicable to you, since guys are a lot easier to boss around than the ladies. Your wife might put up a fuss over giving up the bedtime routine, for example, but what we did is that H still reads the stories but then I come in for the actual sleeping. And, like you, I can get them to sleep in a jiffy.
I had to finally get serious with my H and tell him that I was fearing for the future of our marriage--and that if we did not start investing more of OUR time and energy (didn't want him to feel that I was pointing too many fingers at him alone) into it, I was afraid of what we would end up with when our kids were grown.
Now, it is not all roses and sunshine...I still have to remind him to spend time with me and the cuddling thing I just gave up altogether. I know that he can't sleep and, truly, I want him to have a good night's sleep. It has become a whole lot easier to take since he agreed to give me my 15 minutes per day! I have to know that I am on his list of priorities, ya know? I can't spend the next 20 years, always feeling like there is something more pressing than me.
Regardless of what happens at night, I am thankful for his willingness to hear me and to understand that this is important to me. Don't get me wrong, I still want some booty, LOL, but I find it easier to take the rejection if he spends time with me in other ways. Good luck with this!
All the best..
Hey honeypot,
I like the idea of me putting the girls to bed every night while letting my wife continue to read them stories at least some of the time. I'm not sure if she'll go for it, or if the girls will go for it (my 5-year old has her own ideas about how things should be), but it's worth a try. I really think that would help matters a lot by allowing my wife to get better sleep, so I'll look for an opportunity to work in the suggestion. I also like the idea of spending at least 15 minutes alone together (that sounds funny doesn't it - alone together
) at the end of the day to reconnect. That may be difficult for us since my wife often goes right to bed when I take the girls upstairs, but something similar may be workable.
Better get back to work now. Thanks for the input.
Sooner
Hey Sooner!!
Looks like you've been getting some really great advice. I agree with all of the above...how are things?
Corri
Quoting sooner1992:
But anymore when we're in bed together that's the only chance we ever get to be alone. I guess it helps though that I'm a night person and don't have to get up quite as early as my wife.
I am the night person and my H the morning one. (Although with the toddler around my time has gone all haywire now). We often joke about how nice it is to have the other watching over us as we sleep to make sure everything is alright but it does reduce our time together as you say. If you wish to spend that extra 15 minutes a day alone with your W maybe you will need to get up a little earlier so you could have some together time before you go to work for instance? Its just a thought.
Besides being very skilled at her job she tries to be Supermom - and does a pretty good job. Unfortunately she has a hard time saying no - wish that carried over to the bedroom!
Ah ha! The supermom syndrome. Give of yourself to all others until you have no more energy or time for yourself and your spouse. We all suffer from this - ie. taking our spouses for granted. One day as I was in the midst of throwing a big tantrum at my H, he very calmly and gently reproached me. He said he did not understand how I could be so sweet, nice and considerate to a stranger, a neighbour, or friend but so different towards him. Why is it that we often treat an outsider nicer than our own spouses who deserves the best from us not the worst? Hmmm... I didn't even realise that I had started to take him for granted a little until he told me this. It is so true isn't it. We put on our best face and behaviour for a stranger but not to our own spouses because we are so comfortable with them. Familiarity does breed contempt after a while if you are not careful. Similarly your W by not being able to say No to others but to you is doing the same thing. Maybe she needs a gentle reminder from you too. My H has this very good ability to stay very calm even when I am very emotional and shouting. I can tell you that it works very well.
With regard to reading material, she heard about something called "Hurried Woman Syndrome" and thought it sounded like her. She bought the book and read at least some of it, but I don't know if she ever finished it.
Great! It shows she realises her weak point and is willing to work on it.
Ironically, it included some chapters on loss of sex drive - that's probably where she stopped reading.
Don't assume. Says something about your frame of mind still.
I'm doing well Sooner and will give an update when I have more time. Take care.
LH
Sooner:
Okay, I'm sure you're busy and you have a life and everything, but could you just drop a REAL QUICK hey, how ya doin' line so I don't start making [censored] up in my head of all the things that could possibly be going on?
Corri
Hey Corri! Sorry to leave you hangin' like that. I actually managed to stay away from this bulletin board for a couple of days. After doing so well for quite a while, something set me off Friday night and I reacted - bad Sooner! Had the argument with my wife which continued into Saturday off and on. For once I actually don't feel like telling the whole story - nor did I feel like even getting on here for a while. I initially felt like I'd completely blown all of the effort that I've put into my marriage over the past month and I didn't know if I could go though it all again knowing that I might again screw up again just as we start making some progress. It was as if I'd been climbing Mount Everest for a grueling month, then just before reaching the summit I tumbled back down the mountain to Base Camp where I had to start climbing all over again. But after thinking about it some more, I think it's more like each time I nearly reach the summit and tumble down the mountain I end up one camp higher than the previous time. So this time I landed at Camp 4 (okay, so I read Into Thin Air - although it was several years ago and I've probably forgotten all of the lingo). Anyway, in case my attempt to put my relationship into mountain climbing terms failed, I feel like I'm still in better shape than I've ever in been before following the sex argument. As of Sunday things were back to normal and I started right back into doing things that I enjoy by playing golf with my best friend. My third time to play and I'm still not any good, but the rare good shot is enough to keep me coming back for more. Plus it was a beautiful day here Sunday. Plus my Sooners won on the road Saturday night, thus remaining the top ranked team in the country - so I guess life could be worse.
luvhubby - thanks for your input. Staying calm when my wife is emotional and shouting would definitely work in my favor. I'll try to keep that in mind the next time I'm tempted to shout back. I'm glad to hear that you're doing well and look forward to your update.
I'm headed out of town tomorrow and Wednesday without a computer so I'll check in when I get back. Have a great week everyone!
Sooner
Hey Sooner,
Long time, no chat. How are you doing? I've been thinking about you and hoping all is okay...
Corri
Hi Corri. Thanks for checking up on me. Not much new to report unfortunately. I haven't been on here in several days as I found out Wednesday morning that I needed to be in West Virginia by that evening. I got back late Friday night then left again early Saturday morning for the OU/UCLA football game
(which made me happy if you didn't guess). We stayed last night at my in-laws' house and just got back home this evening.
There's been no progress to speak of with my wife although we continue to get along fine and haven't had any arguments. To make matters worse, my wife is on a diet and has lost 18 pounds in the past three weeks. She looks so terribly hot that I'm about to explode! I've become a bit more flirtatious with her as a result, although not to the point of initiating sex, and that little bit of flirtation only seems to annoy her. It's as if she'd prefer if I wasn't the slightest bit attracted to her. I don't understand it one bit, but in the long run I'm hoping that the improvement in her self image will help matters. At the moment though I'm getting really tired of thinking in terms of "the long run". Know what I mean?
Sooner
Quote:
At the moment though I'm getting really tired of thinking in terms of "the long run". Know what I mean?
God yes, I know what you mean!
Had this wierd thing with my H (LD) last week when I gave him some letters telling him how I feel and even got him to look at the website. It was very emotional I have never really said any of this to him so clearly. I guess I knew I couldn't expect any miracles, but I must have been hoping for one. He's been very good about it really, saying he will try and sort things out so he is not so tired. But somehow I feel a lot more frustrated just now. I want to be nice but at the same time I want to say (with great sarcasm) "Oh great, so in a few months time you might feel like it, wow, fantastic"
Don't worry I didn't say that. I know he is trying. It's just hard for me to empathise with him sometimes. He's just not interested, I think he sees it in the same way I view housework- an annoying necessity that he must get round to some time. That doesn't exactly make me feel great. How depressing we are. Feeling a bit negative right now tho - poor us. 
Quote:
He's been very good about it really, saying he will try and sort things out so he is not so tired. But somehow I feel a lot more frustrated just now. I want to be nice but at the same time I want to say (with great sarcasm) "Oh great, so in a few months time you might feel like it, wow, fantastic"
Are you inside my head? Seriously, these same exact thoughts have run though my mind on occasion, although I'm sure it's just frustration getting an upper hand once in a while. I think it's normal, Jiji and Sooner.
Quote:
I know he is trying. It's just hard for me to empathise with him sometimes. He's just not interested, I think he sees it in the same way I view housework- an annoying necessity that he must get round to some time. That doesn't exactly make me feel great. How depressing we are. Feeling a bit negative right now tho - poor us.
I, too, find it hard to empathise but I know he's trying and I've got to hand it to him, he's been a trooper about going and getting checked out by the doctor and then agreeing to see a C. And yet I can't help but feel a bit down, which I also think is normal, Jiji and Sooner.
The weekend was very nice and we were able to get away to my FIL's, but again another weekend went by and nothing happened, even though H told me "I guess I'm a once-a-week-in-the-morning guy." Sundays are usually the only free morning we have and now I'm SOL for another week.
GR
Hey Sooner!!
So good to hear from you!! Don't you just hate it when work gets in the way of your LIFE? Jeeze... what's UP with that!?
I'm having a serious internal war right now... half of me wants to be really, really indignant on your behalf because your wife is still stuck... and the other half of me is dying to know how she's lost 18 pounds in three weeks. That is some serious, serious weight to drop in a very short amount of time. The Adkins Diet? Stress?
Have you thought about having the MeatPuppet Talk with your wife? Or are you not to that point yet?
Have you been through counseling yet? I can't remember if you said you had or not. If not, do you think it might be time to go down that path? If you did go, what came out of it?
My numbers seriously fell off this month. Only three times so far. My H has been so stressed with his newish job that for the last four weeks he's been walking around like a zombie. He's past his stress point now, but he's really shot himself in the foot with me because in the last three days, he's been such an unbearable pig, telling me how unsupportive I've been, how I don't appreciate him or anything he does, all I want from him is blood... well, he could have flattened me with a feather I was so stunned.
Right now I'm fighting really hard with myself not to turn this into a major mud slinging event. I keep thinking to myself, do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem?
My point in telling you this, Sooner, is I understand how you must feel like a 'whipping post.' For different reasons, maybe, but I understand the feeling. First and foremost is the niggling thought, 'how long am I supposed to take this?'
In my case I let my H know that I was really sorry he felt the way he did, pointed out some things I had been doing that I thought were glaringly obvious in the 'support arena,' and decided that he can be pissed until the cows come home, I feel completely at peace, and actually feel very good about, the role I have been playing in our marriage. And knowing this, really knowing this has allowed me to retain my sanity and sense of happiness.
I did apologize about the dog. I was wrong on that one. I told him if he wanted me to find another home for the dog, I would. I got blasted for such a sentiment, because now that our son is attached to the dog, how could I even suggest such a thing. Then I told him I could schedule a blood letting for myself... maybe that would make him feel better.
I also have an entire arsenal of [censored] I could throw back at him if I really wanted to go to WAR... but I am in the middle of resisting this very sweet temptation... it would feel really good right now to score 'zinger points' because I think I am completely justified. But being justified makes a cold bed companion, so I've been keeping my mouth shut.
I think you are getting close to the point of taking your wife out for 'a talk.' Not an arguement, but I think she really does need to hear you say some things to her. It may not help anything one whit, but if some day you ever do come to that crossroad of having to decide whether to stay or go, knowing that you have been honest and as communicative with her the best you knew how will I think help you find your peace.
Do you think your wife really understands how serious the problem is here? Do you think she understands how deep in 'crisis' your marriage is? It doesn't sound to me like she does, and I think it is up to you to make sure she 'gets' it. You don't have to threaten her, but I'd be real interested to know her reaction, thoughts, feelings, to a life without you in it, shared custody, single parenthood, etc.
I'm rambling. I'll shut up now. What do you think?
Corri
Corri,
I am writing this from an HD perspective, so take that for whatever it's worth!
HD's tend to feel unsupported, and unloved in general, if the sex falls off for whatever reason. It is the way that I decompress, de-stress, and unwind. If I was having a bad month at work (which I do all the time, since I am a SAHM, lol) and could not decompress by making love with H, I would be very short and snippy. I am not defending your husbands actions at ALL; I don't really think it's that attractive when I do it either! But I am hoping to present the other side of the coin, which is that if your H is having a stressful month, there is NO OTHER time in which he needs your love more than then. I betcha he'd say that he'd rather be a sexed up zombie than a frustrated zombie any day!
I know that making love with a mean zombie probably is not all that attractive to you, but the rewards that you could reap by lovingly offering him some restorative sex are immense.
Ok, I'm most likely way off on my interpretation of your situation but I just thought I'd throw it out there anyway!
All the best,
Honey
Honeypot:
(Great 'handle'!)
You know, I understand everything you've said, and more than likely this is the case for my H...
However, it does not exonerate his responsibility to our relationship. I am not a mind reader and I do not communicate by osmosis.
I am more than happy to help out with his physical needs, but I need
something other than a glazed over appearance and gruntal noises to let me know that he even recognizes that I am in the room with him.
I don't mean to be snippy, but you know, I have turned myself inside out and upside down to do my part in pulling us out of the 'unhappy relationship swamp.'
I believe the last time he took me out on a date was in... let's see... jesus... April. Now, I am the biggest supporter of doing things for someone because we want to 'give' not because we expect something in return. However, there are boundary issues at play here, and though I want our marriage and relationship to be happy and thrive, I will not become a door mat so he can feel 'loved.'
In this instance, all he has to do is say he misses me, or that he wants to be close to me, or GASP!, take me out to lunch... maybe dinner?... call me from work to just say hi and tell me he's thinking about me and loves me?... rather than piling on the criticism, telling me
I've shut
him out of my life, I'm withholding, I need to step up his TLC and affection, and be supportive, and do this, and do that...
Sorry, I don't mean to rant at you. But sometimes, I think the HDs need to be a little understanding themselves.
Corri
Quote:
Sorry, I don't mean to rant at you. But sometimes, I think the HDs need to be a little understanding themselves. Corri
But, Corrie, what happens when the HD turns herself inside out suggesting ideas, trying to help, being available and upbeat. I never criticize, am happy to listen to his work woes and give him a safe place to vent. I make sure I tell him I love him, kiss/hug him every morning before and after work. I've wracked my brain. What else can I possible do or say or offer? We have a C appt on Wednesday, but what happens if the C suggests the same sensual turn-on ideas I have?
This HD is at her wit's end. My self-esteem is in the toilet. I feel worthless and undesireable. I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I honestly feel my only lot in the M is as household drudge and source of income, although I'm sure that's not true.
I don't want to hijack Sooner's thread, but I couldn't help but respond to that line in your reply.
GraniteRose
Gigi and GraniteRose – thanks to both of you for your support. If nothing else, it’s somewhat encouraging to know that someone else understands my frustration. I’ve been keeping up with your threads and I think that both of you are taking steps in the right direction. But I certainly know how frustrating it can be when progress seems to come so slowly. I’m pulling for both of you and will gladly give you my input if I ever have any worth giving.
Corri – I can help out with half of your internal war. My wife is doing the “South Beach Diet” which is similar to the Adkins diet. The main difference is that the Adkins Diet is extremely strict on carbohydrates and doesn’t really limit fat & cholesterol, while the South Beach Diet employs more common sense with regard to fat & cholesterol while being a bit less strict on carbohydrates (lets you eat the good ones even during the strict phase of the diet). It encourages eating low fat meats (lean beef, chicken breasts, fish, etc.) and cooking them in healthy ways (in olive oil, on the grill, etc.). I’ve been eating the dinners with my wife, and sometimes breakfast, and you actually eat quite well. I’ve lost about 7 pounds myself, although I also started running recently so my weight loss is probably a combination of diet and exercise. I really need exercise more than a diet as I’m not really overweight, just a little more flabby around the middle than I’d like to be. But I do think there’s a lot of benefit to eating healthy, which is what the South Beach Diet really emphasizes.
With regard to the other half of your internal war, I’m right there with you. Let me try to answer some of your questions and fill you in a bit more about something that isn’t helping matters one bit. First, I haven’t thought about having anyone talk with my wife as I’m fairly certain that it would only make matters worse. She’s not open to talking about sexual issues with anyone, including me, so I don’t really think that’s an option. Now if I could get you and MPT together, find some way to have the two of you accidentally run into my wife then gain her trust and admiration, then over the course of a couple of months explain to her what you’ve learned from The Sex-Starved Marriage combined with your own personal experiences, I think she might begin to understand. Unfortunately, however, that scenario is a bit far-fetched.
My wife and I have never been to counseling. I’ve really never felt a need to see a counselor for any reason and I suppose I’ve always seen it as a waste of money. However I’ve reached the point where I think that some kind of marriage counseling could have some benefit – if nothing else the counselor could serve as a mediator so that maybe we could get to the bottom of things without getting into an argument. I’ve suggested counseling to my wife and she’s completely opposed to it – probably because of her inability to open up to anyone combined with thinking that it wouldn’t do any good. I would consider seeing a counselor alone, and I feel like doing so might help me deal with my own emotions, but I doubt that seeing a counselor on my own would really help the situation with my wife. I really think that she has to want things to get better before they will.
Do I think my wife really understands how serious the problem is? No, I don’t think she has any concept of how much I’m hurting or how much the lack of intimacy is hurting our marriage. I’ve tried very hard to communicate that to her, but she still thinks it’s just a matter of me being horny and selfish. I honestly think that the possibility of divorce, single parenthood, shared custody, etc. scares her to death, and I really don’t want to threaten her with those things as I don’t want them either. Also, she’s so stubborn that if I were to give her an ultimatum she’d probably divorce me before she’d admit that she’s part of the problem and needs to put some real effort into fixing things.
The issue that I mentioned which isn’t helping matters is her job. The situation there has gotten worse lately and she’s an emotional wreck because of it. I’m just now starting to understand how bad it is, and how she often lies awake at night dreading going to work the next day. She’s basically being harassed and threatened when she’s done nothing wrong and is actually a huge asset to her company. I personally think that she has a pretty good case for a lawsuit, or at least for getting the jerks she’s dealing with fired, but she doesn’t think she has enough evidence and doesn’t really want to fight for her job when she can’t possibly get rid of all of the jerks. Anyway, I feel terrible for her and I’m trying to be supportive. I can understand why intimacy is not really a priority for her right now, although I honestly believe that having a passionate relationship with her husband would make her happier and more capable of dealing with any other problems that life throws at her. But this obviously isn’t the time to try and convince her of that. Anyway, she’s started looking for another job and I’m hopeful that she’ll find something soon. Until then, I feel like I’ve got to back off with regard to the intimacy issues and just try to show her that I’m on her side. What do you think?
Sooner
Corri,
I understand completely what you are saying. If it's any consolation, my LD husband is crappy at the romance too.
Here is a thought for ya, though: I'm sure your husband thinks that YOU are not being very understanding. Meaning, sometimes it is a situation of "I'm withholding cause he's being mean" vs. "I'm being mean cause she's withholding."
Know what I mean? I think that Michele does a good job of describing this in her books. I play this fun game with my husband, also, and it is soooo frustrating. Both of us are completely convinced that the other is the originator of Crappy Time in our house. I love to cite examples of how he is definitely the one who has caused the rift, but he is just as adamant that he is reacting to ME.
So whaddya think? Is it possible that you are both reacting negatively to the other and both thinking that the other has originated the negativity? Is there any way to just say, Ya know what...forget it. Let's start fresh.
I know it's easier said than done but I've been following your situation and it seems that you've been on a roll lately. It would be a shame to have a setback now.
One more thing: What does he say when you point out that you have stepped up to the plate re: the sex and he has yet to do the same re: more affection and quality time with you?
Honey
Hello Sooner, Corri,
How come everyone sounds like they are in a rut here? Sooner, sometimes I really feel like shaking your wife and telling her to wake up. Why can't she see how this is affecting you and your M? Anyhow, you sound a lot better than in your earlier posts. Then, you would have said how unloved you feel by your W etc but now you are able to step back and see how perhaps her work situation has somehow added to the sorry sitch. Hopefully, if and when she finds a new job, she will concentrate more on you instead. Although a job change is a stress by itself too so you'd probably have to brace yourself for it. Good luck to you anyway.
I did promise an update. Well, the update, is I'm pregnant.
I did mention earlier on that we're trying for a second. Well, we "worked" very hard indeed and I tried to make "making baby" an event to be enjoyed by H with sexy lingerie, perfume etc and he really seemed to enjoy it too.
Well, I am about 9 weeks pregnant now and like my previous pregnancy, I feel awfully sick. Why do they call it morning sickness when it lasts all day, every day??!! I will probably feel this way till December at least judging from my previous pregnancy. H has conveniently stopped being passionate (now that his job is done) and just assumes that I am not interested since I am feeling so sick. I am not really complaining though because I have little energy to, its physically exhausting to be pregnant at 37 and with a one year old to look after. So I'm just going to hang in there for another year. It helps that H is much more affectionate now than previously. And like you Sooner, I no longer feel inadequate or sorry for myself that H has no desire for me etc. I know there is nothing wrong with me and I am confident of Hs love for me. There are just other issues at play here and I am also confident of being able to overcome it in time with understanding and patience.
Corri, you're sounding great. You are really doing well to be able to hold your tongue and not go to WAR. It takes a lot of control and I am sure it will help your R in a big way and your H will notice the difference and stop complaining too. How could one possible go on complaining at a loving spouse who smiles at you and holds back what she wants to say even though she thinks its justified? So keep at it.
Uh oh...Got to go visit the sink now folks. Take care.
LH
Hi Corri and Sooner
Hey I'm gonna look into this South Beach diet thing!
Anyway since I came on here I have been reading a lot of the divorce busting threads. It's really interesting, I suppose every marriage needs a little DBing.
Anyway Corri I was thinking you could try the detaching and acting as if techniques on your H. Stop over reacting to his over reactions, just be your normal cheery self. If he says something just validate it and then move on. Don't have R talks, just get on with your life making it more fun for yourself in the process. At the same time act as if he is being the way you wish he was. I think the idea of this is that if you act as if something is a certain way it becomes a sort of self fulfilling prophesy.
Well not sure if I described them properly, but I expect you have read the books and know what I mean. So just an idea for you.
Sooner, I have never been to a c but am a lot less against it now than in the past. I think you need a good one tho trained in solution based therapy the way Michelle advocates and pref with a knowledge of Michelle's work. Maybe you could try a phone consult from this site? Having some c on your own is definately a good way of doing it. I think one of the principles of DB is that one partner can change the whole marriage because you can't stay the same if your partner changes. So although I think your W could do with some help herself, if you are better and stronger ect that will help her too, and they may have some ideas for you about how to talk to her.
Mucho congrats on your pregnancy!!!
My only 'little one' is off in grad school working on her doctorate.
37 isn't too old for a second. I wish we could have had four or five. I am extremely proud for you!!
-NOPkins-
Hey luvhubby!
Congratulations! I'm so happy for you. You seem to be doing great (except for the all day morning sickness of course) and you definitely have that "glow" even in your writing. I hope that you get to feeling better soon. I'm swamped so I've got to get back to work, but I wanted to let you know that your post put a big smile on my face.
Sooner
Sooner:
I'd concentrate your sexual frustration helping your wife find a new job. It sounds really, really serious.
I'd find a counselor if I were you and go by yourself. You don't even have to ask your wife to go with you. You going by yourself will be statement enough.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how it will help you and your marriage. There are just WAY too many people on these boards who have gone and benefited from the experience. You do need to keep an open mind, however. Counselors do not listen to you for a few weeks, then hand you a list that says, "if you fix this, this and this, your problems are solved." It doesn't work that way. You'll see what I mean WHEN you go.
It takes some really hard work, some serious introspection, and a belief that you can come out on the other side.
You and I once talked briefly about your wife's reluctance to talk about sex... we even hit upon the religion thing. Does she not talk about it
at all? Does she think its something perverse that must be endured? Does she seem to experience pleasure from sex, but feel guilty for experiencing pleasure? Is she comfortable with her nudeness?
You get my drift. Do you want to revisit that conversation? Maybe there is something there?
Corri
Hey Corri,
Okay, I'll give some thought to the counselor thing. I actually don't doubt that it would be beneficial. My main concerns are finding time to go and the potential cost. I have no idea if my insurance covers such things - guess I should check that.
Now to revisit the conversation that you mentioned...
Quote:
You and I once talked briefly about your wife's reluctance to talk about sex... we even hit upon the religion thing. Does she not talk about it at all?
She very seldom talks about sex - although I don't consider that too surpising since it seems that she wants to avoid it. But when we did have a good sexual relationship, she never talked about it, and she rarely communicated what turns her on, what feels good, etc. It was as if she felt that if she had to tell me it ruined the effect. This left me trying to read her mind, which of course didn't work. I don't think my wife realizes how different every woman is with regard to their sexual tastes.
Quote:
Does she think its something perverse that must be endured?
No, I don't think she sees sex as perverse. Granted, she won't open up and talk about it, but then she has difficulty opening up and talking about anything personal. I think she actually wants to have a good sexual relationship with me but has simply lost all desire, doesn't know how to go about getting it back, and doesn't want to go to any effort to find out how she could get it back.
Quote:
Does she seem to experience pleasure from sex, but feel guilty for experiencing pleasure?
She definitely experiences pleasure from sex, and I don't think that she feels guilty at all when she does. In fact, I'm fairly certain that she would always prefer to reach orgasm, although for some reason she's not very open to achieving it by any means other than through intercourse. I mentioned before that she claims to have never masturbated, and I think that she probably has some guilt issue with that. But she's also not very interested in me using my fingers, tongue, etc. Sometimes she's go for the fingers, but she pushes for intercourse pretty quickly once aroused.
Quote:
Is she comfortable with her nudeness?
She hasn't been since since having kids, but she's been unhappy with her weight since then too. Maybe her success with this diet will help. Prior to the kids, and marriage for that matter, she nearly insisted on sleeping naked. We'd often lay around naked holding each other while watching tv. Now she barely gets undressed to shower.
Gotta go - she's home! 
Sooner
Quote:
I wish we could have had four or five.
lol My H is delighted and says he wants three now. That would be lovely but oh so very tiring!
Sooner, thanks. I don't think my H sees any glow though. He only hears the complaints. Poor thing. What he has to put up with for the next few months.
As with regards your W's change in being comfortable in the nude, I think it affects a lot of women. I am that way too. These days, I feel really uncomfortable being in the nude and try every possible way to hide from Hs eyes. Really silly huh? Even previously, I never felt that comfortable as your W in that I never walked around openly although I would sometimes "reward" H with the occassional peek when he thinks I don't know. Seems more mysterious and exciting that way. Hmm I really am interested to find out how men feel about this issue. Would you be turned off looking at a slightly overweight W when you're not in the mood for some loving? (I know when one is in the mood than it doesn't matter that much as you're wearing horny goggles - as someone once put it but what if you're not in the mood, would it be a turn off? Would you start comparing? Just curious.
LH
Hey luvhubby. I was anxious to get on here and see how my last post turned out as I didn't have time to proofread it before hitting "Continue". Not too bad I suppose - I only noticed one glaring error. Of course with my tendency to ramble I'd have probably gone into even more detail if given the chance. I just thought I'd give you my answer to one of your questions.
Quote:
Would you be turned off looking at a slightly overweight W when you're not in the mood for some loving? (I know when one is in the mood than it doesn't matter that much as you're wearing horny goggles - as someone once put it but what if you're not in the mood, would it be a turn off? Would you start comparing? Just curious.
Personally I don't think I'd ever be turned off looking at my wife naked, even if she was overweight. I'd actually feel good knowing that she was that comfortable around me. Now if it were someone besides my wife (assuming that some form of illicit fooling around wasn't involved - which I only mention because you're right that perceptions change when you're about to get busy) yeah, I'd probably be a bit turned off by an unattractive figure. But keep in mind that unattractive is in the eye of the beholder. For instance, I personally don't get very turned on by really skinny women - I like a little meat on a woman. And there are some women who would probably be considered a fair amount overweight, yet are shapely and have a somewhat sexy look about them that drives me crazy. My wife, right now after losing 18 pounds, looks outstanding to me. But I think that she still compares her body to the skinny, athletic build that she had in her late teens and early twenties. I prefer the way that she looks now, but I'd bet that she hopes to slim down quite a bit more before she's done dieting. I just hope that the boobs she developed during pregnancy don't go away before I've had a chance to touch them! Okay, maybe that's a slight exaggeration.
Guess I'd better go to bed before I get myself into trouble here. Good night!
Sooner
Quote;
---------------------------------------
I really am interested to find out how men feel about this issue. Would you be turned off looking at a slightly overweight W when you're not in the mood for some loving?
---------------------------------------
When are you ladies going to learn. It's the curves that count, not the weight. Realistically, if you weigh in at twice what your normal weight would be, then it is probably something of an issue. But 20 or 30 pounds? I don't know any man (in a relationship) that would even notice. I am sure it is an issue for some men, but I am also sure that it is NOT for most.
Want to knock him for a loop, then BE sexy. Sexy is an attitude and has little to do with how you look naked.
I like naked women - all different sizes and shapes. I like to look, even when I can't touch. Most men are the same in that regard. It would be fine with me if my wife spent most of her time naked (she did when she was pregnant). I could get used to that in a hurry :-)
-NOPkins-
Quote:
Sexy is an attitude and has little to do with how you look naked.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I think that very few women understand this. You don't have to look like a model or have a perfect body to be sexy.
Okay, better get to work now.
Sooner
Sooner:
I personally think you have a 'control' issue going on in your house.
The fact that your wife enjoys sex, doesn't seem to have a problem with it when it does happen, etc., but refuses to speak with you about it speaks to me that she is 'controlling.'
This could be a by-product of her rotten job. She can't control the 'caos' and demands the kids bring to the table because she loves them and to feel resentment toward them is something deep down inside no mother can adequately handle, she is unable or unwilling to face the stresses in her life the job is bringing (and I think she has a male boss?)... so that leaves you, bucko. The only thing she 'can' control in her life is frequency of sex. I doubt she is even aware she is doing it. Because if she were, it would be WAY too painful to admit.
Is there any chance that your sex began to falter when the problems starting occuring at work? Was her father or her mother, or both, a 'control freak?'
Sometimes I think wives lose their libdo when children come along is because they create such havoc in our lives. I think if anyone knew what was coming by introducing children into our lives, the world wouldn't be quite as populated as it is. No offense to kids... I love both of mine dearly... but they did turn my world upside down.
That alone can affect the libido. But when you introduce into the mix also a power struggle at work, and she continually feels 'powerless,' I think she will gravitate toward controlling whatever it is she can in her life, consciously or not, just to have a feeling or measure of 'control.' You know? Hence, the diet. She is probably manical in her decision to lose weight, and nothing or nobody is going to stop her from reaching her goal... whatever that goal might be.... she may not even know what her goal is. I'd watch her... losing 18 pounds in three weeks is more than unhealthy. It will affect her period, her thinking, her quality of sleep... all sorts of things. I'd be careful when you 'do' have sex, too. There is a good chance during this time, even if she is on the pill, that she'll get pregnant again.
A woman in crisis is a very, very fickle and dangerous being. SHE IS IN CRISIS. Do you hear that?
I'd get yourself to therapy, pronto. Because if she won't go (and I doubt she will because she does not have the emotional staminia right now to deal with things going 'wrong' in her marriage as well), you can still benefit from the therapy and introduce things that can help her out.
Just my opinion.
Corri
Corri,
You may be right about the control issue. At least what you said definitely makes a lot of sense. And as you guessed, she does have a male boss. There's actually 3 guys involved - one being her boss who offices in another state and gets fed bogus information by the second guy who is a real jerk that works with my wife and has basically made it known that he's trying to set her up. The third guy also works in her office and is essentially just a brown noser to the jerk, but he's a big part of the problem as well.
To answer a couple of your questions, our sex problems really started during her first pregnancy somewhere on the order of 6 years ago. At the time she was working for the same company but in a completely different role. She has two fairly different bachelor's degrees, one of which is the same degree that I have, and about 3 years ago she switched from one degree field to the other. However, in the previous position she had a boss that gave her grief as well, and those problems began sometime around her first pregnancy. So it is possible that our sex problems are tied to her problems at work.
With regard to her parents, her dad is about as easy-going as they come - probably a lot like me in that sense. However her mom is definitely controlling. I like her very much, but she definitely has her moments when she can be quite overbearing. My wife's brothers often joke about their mom being somewhat "Hitler-like" when they were growing up.
I don't think that my wife is particularly overzealous when it comes to things like her diet, although it is true that for her to do something that takes some effort, like the diet, she definitely has to set her mind to it. But, using the diet as an example, she does occasionally "cheat" by eating things that she shouldn't be eating, and even did so during the first couple of weeks when the diet was really strict. However, I'm not ruling out your theory about her - you could very well be right.
I'll keep the therapy thing in mind although I can't seem to get overly excited about it. I do however agree that it could be helpful.
Thanks for your opinion Corri. I really appreciate it.
Sooner
Sooner:
I hope I didn't come across too dramatically. When I said that your wife is in crisis, I didn't meant to imply I thought she was ready to jump off a bridge or something. I just meant that she is on emotional overload, and has been for an extended period of time.
When I said she was 'controlling,' I don't think she is doing anything controlling on purpose; rather it tends to be more of a subconscious thing we do when we feel we don't have 'control' over our lives.
Even though your wife may cheat on her diet, and she may not seem 'manical' in losing her weight, diet is one thing that is readily controllable, see? She spends 80% of her waking day at work -- in an environment that causes her an immense amount of stress -- the other 15-18% she probably gives to the kids... and then you might get whatever is left over. She can say 'no' to you because she feels safe in doing so.
So that's really all I meant by it.
Corri