Okay, time for an update on my sitch. Not sure if there's still anyone here who remembers me, but I haven't posted in a while (2006). I was a pretty active poster from about '03 till '06. Just so you don't need to wade through all my old posts, here's my story outline:
Married in '79, we were each others' first and only significant attachment. Courtship ('76-'79) was a heavenly time for both of us. We did do sexual things during courtship, but didn't go "all the way" till after the wedding. Looking back, things started to go south right after the wedding, from what I remember. I know now that she was LD from the beginning, and she started putting up walls almost right away, because as she put it, she felt somewhat overwhelmed at the depth of my desire. Perhaps I was clumsy, also, but I have always made sure I'm an attentive and generous lover, and I always wanted to make sure she was satisfied. She just didn't want it nearly as often as I did. So there were problems from the start.
When we started trying to have kids, we discovered that fertility was an issue, and we ended up having to use fertility drugs for the first 2 kids. That made the sex thing difficult, because for months on end, it was pretty much "on demand" when the "time was right", and not at all at other times. That led to negative feelings about sex on her part. After the second was born, she wouldn't let me near her for over a year, and even after that, things in the bedroom were far from good, and we ML very seldom for a long time. Eventually, we had a heart-to-heart (me instigating), and she agreed to once a week. A month or two of that, and the third was conceived (surprise, surprise!), and immediately after finding out she was pregnant, she would no longer ML with me at all till after (LONG after) the baby was born.
I lost my job 2 months before #3 was born, and the following years were very hard. I was trying to rebuild my career, and she was emotionally dead. After 5 or 6 years, I finally got back on track career-wise, but the bedroom sitch never really recovered.
Over the past 10 years or so, mostly at my insistance, we've been trying to improve our relationship, but it's been a very long and frustrating road. We saw a counselor in 2000 (neither of us was impressed with him), then again in '02 (I liked her a lot, but W felt she was taking my side over her). W saw a counselor alone in '04 (I was posting here a lot at that time), but for the past few years we've been occasionally trying to work on the R with no real progress. In fact, a couple weeks ago, I found and read a journal the '02 counselor had us do, and I could write the very same things right now - nothing has really changed.
So what's been happening with me in the past few years? Well, when I went back and reviewed my last few postings from '06, I was fairly optimistic that change was at last at hand, but alas, I have to report that once again, years have gone by with no progress at all. I've spent the past few years once again pretty much on autopilot, visiting the "palmer twins" on a regular basis.
In '07, I had a colonoscopy, and the doc removed a polyp. A week later, it started bleeding, and I went into emerg at 10:00 pm. Overnight, I lost a lot of blood - they gave me 2 units the following day, and during the night there was a bad spell where I lost consciousness and woke to find a team of worried docs working on me. I was in hospital from Monday night till Thursday evening that time, then the very next week I had an inflamed galbladder, and ended up having emergency surgery. I was off work 2 weeks, and couldn't do any lifting for 3 months (they also fixed a hernia while they had me on the table). All in all an interesting adventure. Since then, I've just been busy at work, and nothing much happening on the home front.
Last October, we spent a weekend in Niagara Falls in a fancy hotel, 39th floor, overlooking the falls, it being my hope we might begin to rekindle things if we were away from the kids/house/hassles for a couple days and nights. No real luck. We did ML, but the sex was lousy.
So, we've ML exactly 3 times in about the past 18 months, and things finally came to a head (again) around New Year's. One thing that came out of that was that we're making one more attempt at counseling, and we've had one session so far (Jan 12). The second session was supposed to be 2 weeks later, but W got a bad cold, so we had to reschedule. The second session is this coming Tues. I'll be posting here how it goes. One assignment we had after Session 1 was to each draw up a list of "We" statements describing the Ideal Relationship - i.e. what we want our R to look like going forward. Then take our individual lists and combine them into a master list, that we both agree on - i.e. a "Mission Statement" for the R. Well, I had 24 statements in my list, mostly things like "We laugh together" and "We go on a date at least once a month", but two of them were "We make love often and joyfully" and "We have make-up sex when we argue". Guess which ones didn't make the master list, lol...
Anyway, that's the story in a nutshell. At this point, I'm thinking that really our issues aren't about sex at all, but perhaps the real issues go very deep, and are perhaps fundamental to our R. Maybe I was actually fooling myself all those years ago, and maybe we were never really meant to marry. Dunno. I'm looking back at a very long history of not having the R I want, although she's mostly seemed satisfied with it, so if past performance predicts future behavior, maybe I've been flogging a dead horse way too long. I'm hoping this next round of counseling will help to clarify things. I do know I can't go on the way we've been going.
Oh, and just so you know, I've been working really hard over the past 10 years to resolve this situation. W and I have read a small library of books, including those by MWD, Gottman, Schnarch, Suzanne Somers, Gray, etc., etc...
I have tried seeing things from her perspective, working to give her what she wants, doing nice things for her, etc, etc...
I've always been the "romantic" one - writing love songs, giving nice gifts, poetry, etc. The kids see this also. Truth is, I've pretty much concluded there isn't anything I can do to make anything different, it's really up to her at this point. I intend to make it clear in our therapy sessions that I really cannot live this way any more, and we either find another way to be together, or we'll have to learn to live apart.
My heart goes out to you. On the one hand, it sounds like you are doing everything I have tried to do and am trying to do and it has not worked. That frightens me deeply that you have been doing these things for year and not yet reached a level of "happiness" that you can live with.
On the other hand, I have made a commitment to myself that things (frequency of sex and touching) are going to get better this year or I am going to end my marriage to the woman that I deeply love. The sex therapist we have has heard this and walked my wife right into that "reality" in a way that my wife cannot avoid that it is now her choice as to if this marriage survives or not.
Last night my wife asked if I would really leave her and I told her yes, that I had not felt loved for a long time and that I am a person who feels loved primarily by sex and touch. If that doesn't happen, then I don't feel loved.
We talked about what we each needed and she asked again if I really needed sex and being touched. I told her that yes I do, that is who I am and I can't change that. She then told me that this is emotionally tearing her apart. I told her that I was sorry for that, but that I really do love her, but I also need to feel loved.
There is another thread where someone said that you need to come to the point where you need to be ready to leave your marriage in order for your spouse to initiate changes.
Since you have read Schnarch and the Passionate Marriage, he talks about marriages that reach a crisis where your integrity (and self-knowledge) requires you to speak up for what you need and must have. He talks about that being a very frightening and difficult discussion with your spouse, but one that you, because of your self-knowledge must for your own sake, make. It also goes to the heart of the "marriage as a crucible" theory where marriage grows people emotionally.
Truth is, I've pretty much concluded there isn't anything I can do to make anything different, it's really up to her at this point. I intend to make it clear in our therapy sessions that I really cannot live this way any more, and we either find another way to be together, or we'll have to learn to live apart.
Again, my heart goes out to you. I hope that your wife will be able to hear you and decides that she is willing to change in order to keep you.
Your comments also make me afraid, as my wife is now struggling with whether or not she is willing to change in order to keep me.
I wish you the best of luck in telling your therapist how you feel and in allowing your wife to understand your basic needs that must be met within the context of a committed marriage.
Good luck!
Thanks, YoungAtHeart. Schnarch also says "It's never too late to sell yourself out", and boy, do I know what he means. That's what I've done time and again, and it really sucks. The thing that makes me sad to think about is how many years W and I have wasted, which will only be NOT a waste if we can finally turn things around, but against that is the fact that we've raised 3 fantastic kids in the meantime, so nothing can take that away. I have been holding the marriage together as long as I have mainly for that, but that job is pretty much done now. They're 18, 23 and 26 and all still living at home, and I know if I finally break up the marriage, they'll see me as the bad guy, and there's no way they'll be able to understand, but eventually I do need some chance at happiness, and can't go on living in a dead marriage. As I said, I will keep updating my sitch as it unfolds, hopefully it'll turn out to be a success story and not a cautionary tale. I do hope your W decides to change to keep you, it sounds like your issues don't go anywhere near as deep as ours. Keep the faith!
Your words again scare me, although, I think that my issues aren't as deep as yours or others on this forum. Thank you for your support and wishes.
My two children are now adults and we are mostly empty nesters except during the holidays and for the moment.
The part about selling yourself out, rings true to me as well. Last night my wife lamented about 15 lost years due to our not being able to be close to each other. As you say better now than never.
Good luck to you and your wife.
Tim,
I've not read very much of your sitch, but certain things stand out:
(1) A marriage that's been sex starved for years.
(2) You do all the romantic work in the relationship, your wife does zip.
(3) I'm only guessing here, but I predict you work very hard, keep your wife and children in all the material comforts they want? Do you do lots of housework? Are you constantly thinking of "the clincher", the action that will truly demonstrate to your wife what a great guy you are? And will make her love and be attracted to you?
(4) Your three adult children all still live at home. A side issue, you may think, but IMO part of the overall picture of the kind of life and relationships you have created for yourself.
You have Nice Guy Syndrome. Right now, you should forget about your marriage - mediocre though it undoubtedly is - and start working on yourself. Get No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover - today - it will be the best $10-15 you've ever spent. Get it. Read it. Then post again.
I look forward to hearing from you.
S&A
S&A, I get what you're saying, but I think I've actually been doing that for the past 10 years or so, even without realizing it. On my own, I decided that it was silly to keep focusing all my attention on W and F, to the exclusion of anything for myself, so about 10 years ago I started building and flying model airplanes. This gave me much joy and feeling of accomplishment, and it continues to do so to this day. It also proved a way to meet other men and develop outside friendships. I also brew my own beer, and in '07 I took on another lifelong dream and made a violin from scratch. These activities are not shared by W, but if she chose to take the slightest interest, even peripheral, they could add to our R and improve our sitch. However, she sees these more as a threat to the status quo rather than as added interest and new things to talk about. Anyway, I'll consider looking up that book...
Not sure how many folks here will recall the movie "Shirley Valentine", it's a very old British comedy about a woman who's dissatisfied with her marriage and her life in general, who goes on a holiday to Greece. I actually think of it as a tragicomedy, because in the end she does find happiness, but it's because she decides to stay in Greece and leave her husband. Anyway, early in the movie, when she's just planning her getaway, she spends time explaining her dissatisfaction to the camera. One thing she says has always stayed with me - she says "It's not that he's a BAD husband, he's just no bloody good." That pretty much sums up my own feelings about W. She and I saw the above movie on TV many years ago, early in our marriage, and she found it quite funny. I might use that line in our C sessions, with explanation for the C, and I'm quite sure W will get the reference...
One assignment we had after Session 1 was to each draw up a list of "We" statements describing the Ideal Relationship - i.e. what we want our R to look like going forward. Then take our individual lists and combine them into a master list, that we both agree on - i.e. a "Mission Statement" for the R. Well, I had 24 statements in my list, mostly things like "We laugh together" and "We go on a date at least once a month", but two of them were "We make love often and joyfully" and "We have make-up sex when we argue". Guess which ones didn't make the master list, lol...
Why would you agree to a list that didn't include them?
(I couldn't choose which expletives to put between why and would so you get the safe for work version.)
Until you are willing to grab your brass ring and stake your claim to a fulfilled marriage, it won't happen. You *have* to be willing to throw it all away.
Wife, I have decided that the list is not satisfactory. I won't agree to it. When you are ready to renegotiate, let me know; otherwise, I will rip it up in front of the counselor.
SpinFree
Why would you agree to a list that didn't include them?
(I couldn't choose which expletives to put between why and would so you get the safe for work version.)
The reason is because this was just an initial exercise to get us talking, and I'm sure it's also meant to be a "first draft" - there's no way we would get to a final list after only one session and one try, that seems obvious to me. I'm also pretty sure C will want to see our individual lists at some point, because there's much discussion to be had around what didn't make the list, and whether either of us felt cheated by it. So I didn't get all emotional or react in any way - one of the rules at this point was that either of us could nix the other's item without explanation or defence, so it's pretty clear that this is just a groundbreaking exercise to dig up some crud for discussion. As such, it worked very well, as far as I can see so far. Next session is tomorrow evening at 6, I'll let you guys know how it goes...
Good luck on your next session!
Hi, Tim,
I remember you. Back in the days of Corri, Hairdog, and Mojo and Honeypot. OG Lou and Karen. I remember and I'm back, too.
I'm not sure if I'm more cynical or just more realistic. I'm certainly older. I've done a lot of thinking and would like to share with you some of my conclusions.
Marriage Counseling ... I was looking for a referee. I wanted someone to tell my wife that she had to have sex with her husband. I never did get my wife to go to counseling, but I did go myself. The counselor said my wife did not feel sufficiently empowered. I thought what a bunch of bull. W holds all the cards, all the power. But the counselor was right. Funny thing, though, you can't empower someone. You can, however, step out of the way. W wanted a new, bigger house. I said we can't afford it (we can't). I said we can't take care of it (we can't). I said we don't need it (we don't). But she wanted it. I stepped aside. We moved. She's happier, now that she has her new toy.
As I listened to the posters back in the day, I felt that some made much ado about very little. There was talk about setting boundaries. There was a good deal of self-pity. I came to the conclusion that people do indeed change, but that the change has little to do with one's own efforts.
In also learned that no doesn't always mean no. W and I ML yesterday. It was great. She sent the kids to a sleepover. She drank an extra glass of wine. We were snuggling (we almost never sleep together). She made one excuse after another, but she didn't push me away like usual. I would say we ML 8 times a year. This is not enough to provide sufficient nourishment, but I would say that we are no longer "sex-starved." Very lean, though.
I have managed to control my resentment over the issue. This has helped me greatly. W still throws tantrums, but they don't last as long as they used to. In a way, I have come to see it as a sign that she trusts me not to leave. She has no idea how close I came!
Hey, nice to see a familiar face (yeah, with the attendant sorrow at seeing we're both still here). I fondly remember all those folks, and the Daves as well. What you say is very true. One reason I stayed away from here the past few years is because it sort of became like a drug, I couldn't trust exactly why I was here. I'm sure some part of me wanted to join the pity-party and have someone tell me it's gonna be okay, and some part of me wanted to watch the show. I do recall, however, that there was a lot of genuine support, and a lot of really great advice.
Like you, I'm now older, and probably not much wiser, but I am definitely more ready to take responsibility for what I want. I will readily admit that I'm as much responsible for my current sitch as W is. I've been every bit as good at avoidance behaviors as she has, and probably for many of the same reasons. I just was NOT ready to risk it all to take a stand. I do think I am ready for that now. As far as what's the C for? No, I don't need a referee, but since we've been on autopilot again for the past few years, and our past two efforts with counselors were unsatisfactory, I guess I just want one more kick at the can, just so I can say I did indeed try everything. Maybe that's cowardly, I dunno. Truth is, there's a BIG part of me even now that's scared that it'd be a HUGE mistake to end the marriage before I'm REALLY sure there's nothing else to do. I'll also admit that if I were reading those words written by someone else, I'd probably be quick to say "No-brainer, Bro..." especially knowing all the history. The past few weeks, while waiting for this next session, I've been going back and reviewing the past 10 years, and I really am starting to feel like a chump for hanging on. The pattern really becomes evident in hindsight, and it's not pretty.
As for resentment, that's the funny thing - I don't sit around and dwell on it or mope around. If we have a "real" moment, where we're being ourselves with each other, it doesn't get in the way. But when she once again confirms that she just doesn't see sex as important to her in any way, then yeah, I do feel it, and I do allow myself some bitterness, but that's why I don't spend much time dwelling on it as a rule. But I can easily see how it could destroy me, if I let it, so I won't. That's why I've got to hold out this time for the marriage I ultimately want, without compromise, knowing there may be no marriage at the end, at least with this woman.
Coun. session #2 tonight, interesting. More interesting what happened on the way home. One thing, we're not allowed any TV for the next 30 days. I can tell you that there will be at least a **little** cheating on that, but I'm determined to abide "almost" completely by it, more than W, that's for sure. Anyway, I really think this C is wise, and has a lot of good stuff for us. I do hope we'll take full advantage of what he has to offer. More tomorrow.
Anyway, he started off reading through our "We" vision exercise from last time, and we talked a bit about that. He asked us each how we felt about it, and the exercise, and explained that it's a living document, meant to be reviewed on a regular basis, and updated from time to time, just like a corporate mission statement or strategic intent statement. In addition, we're to make a firm weekly "date" to spend the time it takes to read it aloud with each other, and also post it on the fridge, the bathroom mirror, etc. Just like a corporate mission statement. I can't remember exactly how we got onto the next topic, but suddenly he was asking me about my childhood family and those dynamics. We talked a bit about how Dad treated me, and what Mom was like, and he drew parallels between the fact that I had a hard time being heard by my parents as a child, and the difficulty I've had in communicating with W. We also talked a bit about methods by which each of us can connect with the other - for example, he asked me what would make me feel most loved, and of course I answered "physical affection and closeness", and of course W's answer was "to have me do things for her, or to help more around the house". He then mentioned that if she observes me being attentive to her needs, like doing the dishes or other chores (and it makes her feel more loved), she should respond by giving me a hug and kiss, instead of just saying "Thank you." Pretty basic stuff, but pretty powerful, potentially.
The real kicker was when I described a typical evening, where we sit like zombies in front of the TV, she falls asleep, and I'm basically alone. THAT led him to challenge us to go without TV for 30 days - cold turkey. As soon as he said that, I'm thinking, "[censored]! Why did I have to mention TV???", lol. On the way home, W was feeling rather incredulous and intimidated at the thought of absolutely NO TV for 30 days, what with the Olympics coming up and everything. I should mention that lately, we've both gotten quite interested in a number of shows, and Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights have been really big TV nights for us (Desperate Housewives, The Middle, Modern Family, Cougartown, Biggest Loser, How I Met Your Mother, Two and a Half Men, The Big Bang Theory). Plus, a couple years ago when the writers were on strike, we "survived" by watching season 1 and 2 of Lost on DVD, and finished just in time for Season 3, and we've been faithful watchers ever since. And last night was the second episode of the Last Season. Not to mention the last episode of The Jay Leno show. Anyway, W was pretty nonplussed, but I said if we cheap-out about THIS, then how will we avoid cheaping out on the really HARD stuff? We might just as well save our money on the counseling, because it isn't going to work if that happens. It was only a 10-minute drive home, but I initially agreed that we could make an exception for Lost, at least.
So last evening we did watch Lost, and I felt pretty bad about it, and worse about it this morning when I woke up. W had to leave about halfway through the episode to pick up S18 from the bus (he had a late evening at University), so I taped it, and I was all set to watch the rest of it with her, but she didn't sit down, so I watched Leno instead. D26 was also watching, and it would have been somewhat awkward if I'd simply said "No, we've decided not to watch TV for the next month." Anyway, the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was another violation of my integrity, and this morning when I woke up, I decided I was NOT going to watch any more TV for the next 30 days, I'm going to commit completely to the process we've begun, because to do anything else is to admit that a) I don't really buy into the process (and this is costing me $90/session), and b) my marriage really isn't more important than what's on TV. So for my own sake, I have to draw a line in the sand and give myself completely to this process and just see what happens. What W decides to do is up to her, and I will indeed be very interested to see if she rises to the challenge. I'm not going to nag her about it, or mope or fume, or argue about it, I'm just going to observe, and do what I need to do. And the "We" vision is going to be posted on the bathroom mirror, and the fridge, and of course the kids are going to see it and ask about it, and I'll say W and I have decided to work on our marriage. We've even decided not to continue hiding the C sessions from them, but to present it as a positive thing that we're doing to make our marriage better. That can only be a good thing, if we present it properly.
I was also somewhat ambivalent about the approach of V-day, wondering what I could/should do, if anything. Like should I get her a card, or (given what we're going through, and have been for years) if that would seem lame. But in light of the knowledge that her major LL is Acts of Service (really, REALLY no surprise to me), I've decided to give her a REAL gift, of myself. I'm going to make up a series of coupons, with acts of service on them, that she can present to me at any time, in any situation, and I will follow through. These are going to be things like "Clean the bathrooms", "Vacuum the house", "Fold the laundry" etc., and some of them will be WAY outside my comfort zone, such as "Plan and prepare an entire meal" (she will immediately recognize THAT one as being COMPLETELY out of character for me, as I NEVER cook). Along with these will be a card, containing my commitment to actively looking for ways I can do things for her that will help her see how much I love her, and I will act on that commitment. It will be very interesting to see how this goes over. I intend to keep it up at least for the 30-day no-TV commitment period, just to see what effect it has. I'm also going to get that Love Languages book and read it (it's one of the few I haven't yet read).
Our next session is about 3 weeks away, and it'll be really interesting to see how things go during that time. I will journal about it here. In fact, that's one thing I just realized this week - that by posting here as regularly as I did between '03 and '06, I was keeping a journal of sorts, and I can go back and refer to that, and use it to gauge progress, and remind myself of what hasn't worked in the past. I do realize the only person I can change is me, and I have at least a short-term plan now for doing that. A sense of purpose can go a long way, and there's a sense of freedom in giving myself over to the process and trusting the C knows what he's doing. I feel like I'm either on the verge of watching everything I've worked for and dreamt of all my life dissolve before my eyes, or I'm on the verge of the most amazing adventure ever. Either way, it won't be boring. I really hope W will rise to the challenge.
nd some of them will be WAY outside my comfort zone, such as "Plan and prepare an entire meal" (she will immediately recognize THAT one as being COMPLETELY out of character for me, as I NEVER cook).
Why not just do that for V day? I've never had much success with the coupon thing in the past. To me, it comes across as 'I'm not thoughtful enough to do something real - so you need to nag me to do it.' Ultimately actions mean a lot and words mean very little. Just my 2c though. She wants you to DO things for her - not talk about things you're going to do.
You may be right, but I will also be attentive each day to things I can do, and doing them, so I guess I'm planning to do it both ways. With the coupons, she gets a chance to give me a "please do it now", which I think might be something she'd like, although if I'm doing my job, she may not feel the need to use them...
...So for my own sake, I have to draw a line in the sand and give myself completely to this process and just see what happens. What W decides to do is up to her, and I will indeed be very interested to see if she rises to the challenge.
...And the "We" vision is going to be posted on the bathroom mirror, and the fridge, and of course the kids are going to see it and ask about it, and I'll say W and I have decided to work on our marriage. We've even decided not to continue hiding the C sessions from them, but to present it as a positive thing that we're doing to make our marriage better. That can only be a good thing, if we present it properly.
...I've decided to give her a REAL gift, of myself. I'm going to make up a series of coupons, with acts of service on them, that she can present to me at any time, in any situation, and I will follow through. These are going to be things like "Clean the bathrooms", "Vacuum the house", "Fold the laundry" etc., and some of them will be WAY outside my comfort zone, such as "Plan and prepare an entire meal" (she will immediately recognize THAT one as being COMPLETELY out of character for me, as I NEVER cook).
....I'm also going to get that Love Languages book and read it (it's one of the few I haven't yet read).
Congratulations on your therapy session and your commitment to the process!
Also +1 on Chapman's the Five Languages of Love. It along with the SSM, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Hold Me Tight and a few others really impressed me and helped me better understand what was going on.
Make sure you are both absolutely 100% behind sharing your therapy vision statement with your kids. An alternate would be to put it in a wallet card you each carry. Not as good, but I don't know your wife's sensitivity.
As to coupons to do household chores as acts of service. I would like to just urge a little bit of caution. Coupons for acts of service, might or might not go over (in my opinion) depending upon the "motives" you wife assumes in your gift of them to her. My fear in giving those as a Valentine's Day gift, would be that they could make her feel like she needs to remind you to perform acts of service and the statement of love that your acts of service coupons represent are temporary and will expire when coupons are all used up.
An alternate suggestions would be to give her un-requested acts of service that she can recognize as extra special. For example, do what group of household chores you can and then something extra special for just the weekend:
- get up early on Saturday or Sunday and get your wife's car washed/waxed/vacuumed or detailed;
- do the unplanned meal, like was suggested, but tell her in advance so she doesn't have something planned where the food will spoil;
- give her a coupon at a salon for something that will allow her to feel sexy or pretty-but not overtly sexual (examples are peticure/manicure, massage. etc.).
If you do give he a card (I think it is a good idea), a "killer phrase" I saw in a relationship discussion might be...."Let's stop fighting. I really love you. I know what you need in this marriage. I'm gonna try my best to give it to you. If you're not getting what you want let me know what I could do better …"and I really appreciate you and I'm glad I married you."
Actually, yes, I have reconsidered the AOS Card idea, it might be a lot more special if I simply make Sunday "Her Day", and seek to do everything for her, all day. At least to the best of my ability. On Sundays, she usually makes something like pancakes, waffles, etc. for breakfast, on V-day it's likely that she'll get croissants or something instead. I'll suggest it just to make sure. Then for the rest of the day, I'll be in charge of cleaning up, making supper, cleaning up, etc. Plus a nice Valentines card. All of that together probably adds up to a good baby-step that doesn't go off the deep end into unbelievability, and doesn't demand anything in return. And then, of course, continuing with my commitment to look for ways to make her feel loved by doing things for her, again with no expectation other than to make her feel loved.
Also, I have to give W credit, so far she has not voiced any misgivings about the C, even though she has indeed expressed misgivings about our no-TV assignment. And in-session, she takes responsibility for her own contributions to our sitch, at least so far, although she is also so far unwilling to face some truths about her birth family. She characterizes her birth home as unremittingly warm and loving, all sweetness and light, yet she's always been afraid of her own shadow, and reacts very badly to raised voices, so the evidence suggests otherwise. But still, she's been a trooper so far...
Well, evening 1 of the new regime went pretty well. Soon as I got home, I saw a couple of baskets of laundry, which I folded (over W's mild objections), and got a nice hug and kiss in return. I also checked the kitchen when W wasn't looking, and tidied up, emptied the drainboard, and ran the dishwasher, because it was full, and we wouldn't have had enough dishes for supper, and no room to put more dishes in after. Then I sat down and read a book for a while. W prepared supper (tacos), and after supper we had an epic game of Trivial Pursuit that lasted 2 hours. Lots of fun. Now it's just about time for bed (no, get your mind out of the gutter - I mean to sleep). Typed up the Vision Statement also. It reads pretty well. I may post it here tomorrow. Nice evening, even without TV...
AND... we both went to bed early, and the goodnight kissing was longer and sweeter than it had been. The kids were mostly still up, and no doubt noticed that we went to bed early. I can only guess what they would be assuming, but if we make a habit of it, we can assume they'd draw conclusions about it, which would mean we might as well be doing it, since they'd be assuming we are anyway. At any rate, it'd be easier. They'll soon notice we're doing things differently anyway, and the C sessions won't be possible to hide either. I'm thinking it'll be a GOOD thing for the kids to see their parents working to enhance the marriage!
And don't make the mistake of thinking that my current optimistic mood indicates any supposition on my part that I think everything is solved now - far from it. This is just the beginning, and I know we have a lot of work ahead of us, and a lot of crap to still resolve, but this does feel like a different sort of progress than we've ever managed before. I have fundamentally changed my attitude, and I think that changes everything. I will continue with the acts of service, and look for every opportunity to make her feel special by doing things for her. I know that this won't result in an immediate change on her part, but I've already begun to notice a definite thaw, and my own outlook is a lot rosier than it was just the other day. Onward!
Well, it is interesting to watch how things develop. This evening after work, once again I started looking around the house for things I could do as soon as I got home. For one thing, the dishwasher needed emptying, and there were a few things on the drain-board. So I emptied the dishwasher and put the stuff away, and grabbed the few dirty dishes from the counter and put them in the dishwasher. W came into the kitchen as I was about halfway through this, and thanked me (verbally). While she was there, I started to say I really think we should go ahead and post the Marriage Vision on the fridge, the bathroom mirror, etc. I'll post it in a separate post below so you can see it - there's nothing there I wouldn't be proud to show my kids and my parents. I made the case to W that in fact I think the kids will be proud of us when they really start to see how we're working on the M, and in fact they're going to start seeing changes very soon, because I, for one, am not going to be watching ANY TV, including the Olympics. I also said I think we should go ahead and tell the kids that we're seeing someone to help us make our M better, and if we present it in an upbeat fashion, I'm sure they won't react badly or get scared or anything - they're adults, after all. They don't at this point have ANY idea how bad things are between me and W, so I think they'll totally buy that W and I are just feeling kind of stale on things, and in a rut, and want to recharge our marriage.
Anyway, W started pushing back on a few things almost right away.
First of all, she doesn't want the Vision statement posted on the bathroom mirror, she said she didn't want to have to take it down every time someone comes over, at which point I countered that I don't see why we'd feel inclined to hide it from anyone. Anyway, she agreed we could post it on the fridge, and in the bedroom, and if I want to look at it while shaving, I can tape it up before and take it down after. Okay, I'll do things that way to start with.
Secondly, she wanted to say that she, for one, doesn't see why we should have to miss the last season of Lost, and she fully intends to watch it, and she also intends to watch at least some events in the Olympics, because that's a once-in-a-lifetime thing, even though it comes back in 4 years, this particular olympics will never happen again. I said I can understand that, and she's free to do what she wants, but I said I feel strongly that if I cheap-out on this task, I'll want to do it again, and before long, the process will certainly break down. I stated that this is really important to me, and I intend to trust the process and do what the C says we should do. I also said I did watch TV that first night, and felt bad about it after. So she's obviously going to not follow the process entirely, and this will undoubtedly come out in our next session, so that'll be interesting. Am I surprised? No. Somewhat disappointed, but not crushed. After all, the next session is only about 3 weeks away, and we'll get a chance to talk about it then, if we don't before, so that gives me the freedom to simply observe this and wait and see. This also tells me that I am changing things in a meaningful way, because it's already starting to bug her - it's touched a nerve. Since this will initially make her uncomfortable, this kind of push-back is to be expected.
After checking my email briefly, I came back to the living room and sat down to read. She was ironing, and she immediately started talking about another thing that happened in the last session - how the C had questioned her about her childhood, and expressed disbelief that it had been as rosy-sweetnes-and-light as she had described in her intake questionnaire (she apparently used the word "Loving" twice in one sentence, and listed nothing even slightly derogatory or upsetting about her parents). Anyway, she started saying how she felt the C was trying to get her to say that her father had been some kind of horrible monster, or looking for some kind of dirt, and that there just wasn't anything of the sort - her entire childhood had just been completely wonderful and perfect. She even used the word Perfect, I think. She was an only child until 14 when they adopted her brother at 4, so she got good and settled in that "princess" position, although she was always afraid of her own shadow, for some reason. Hmmm. Anyway, we talked about this topic for at least 45 min or an hour, and she was vigorously defending her position (to ME, her H of 30.5 years). I'm not a psychologist, but I know enough to suspect that a vigorously-defended position (pro-actively, when there's no attack anywhere) may indicate something one doesn't wish to examine too closely.
Anyway, we had a good long discussion, and I reiterated several times that I really trust this C, I feel he really has something to offer us, and I intend to follow through with what he recommends, and do his exercises fully. I'm also going to keep up with the AOS, to show her I am fully committed to changing things between us. I really do want to connect with her, and I want her to see that in a way she can fully trust.
W and I went to see Avatar a couple weeks ago. One of the phrases the characters used (the natives) was "I see you," which had many deep layers of meaning, but generally was used to mean "I understand you and know you deeply and completely." I want W and I to be able to say that to each other...
Okay, here's what W and I came up with for our Vision Statement for our Marriage:
1. We talk about our hopes and dreams for the future.
2. We are patient with each other when we are speaking and if it is not clear what the other one is trying to say, we ask for clarification calmly without jumping to conclusions.
3. We laugh together
4. We listen attentively to each other when recounting events
5. We share our innermost thoughts
6. We discuss relationship issues as they come up so they don’t have time to fester
7. We share many inside jokes
8. We don’t use condescending tones with each other when speaking
9. We take delight in making each other happy
10. We kiss and hug each other and say “I Love You” daily
11. We give each other gifts on special occasions
12. We never resort to name-calling
13. We give each other gifts “Just Because”
14. We do something fun together at least once a week (board games, walks, etc.)
15. We are completely honest and up-front with each other when issues come up even if we feel the other person is not going to like what we have to say
16. We go on a date at least once a month
17. We sing together
18. We have at least one hobby we do together
19. We enjoy each other’s company
20. We respect each other
21. We seek friendships with other couples
22. We take fun trips together without the kids
23. We each allow ourselves to be influenced by the other
24. We talk on the phone during the work day to keep in touch
25. We make time for each other
Just an FYI, Tim .... watch how you question her characterization of her childhood. Maybe you have a basis, maybe you don't. Your description struck a chord with me, because I also grew up in a very loving home; not perfect, but warm and loving. There were no raised voices, ever. Thus, when I encountered raised voices in my marriage, it seemed like the end of the world, since I had no frame of reference nor any experience with people who could love me and still yell at me. Also, it wouldn't be unfair to characterize me as "afraid of my own shadow" since childhood. Other than a fairly minor incident of sexual abuse by a neighborhood teen, nothing "bad" happened to me, certainly not within my own home. It is what it is. She ain't necessarily repressing anything. I know if my husband were to begin questioning my memories and my reality the way you apparently are -- even if he were to do so sincerely and out of genuine concern -- it would piss me off intensely pretty quickly if he wasn't taking my word. She was there; you weren't. Even if you happen to be right, I doubt you'll be able to argue her into admitting it.
Thanks, Kettricken. Of course my intention is not to question her childhood memories, or attack her home life, and it's hard, when writing about as much as I did, to include everything. My main point is that there's quite a lot of meaty stuff in my own childhood, which was not abusive by any means, but definitely had its unhappy side (absent/bullying father, moved frequently, etc.), and I can definitely see the parallels between how I grew up and who I am today. Confronting those issues is still very painful and difficult for me, even with all the years since then. Yet I'm working with the C and being very open and confronting what I need to and not holding back. But this just CAN'T be all about me. Or at least that would be VERY surprising. And if I'm going to go through the pain of confronting all of my demons, for her to hold back and not do likewise just adds to the pain. I don't have a "vested interest" in seeing that she had an unhappy childhood, I just want her to invest as much of herself in this process as I am.
Just a bit more on the subject of our respective birth families, as it happens, I know her parents very well, as we've mostly lived close to them throughout our marriage, and have spent a lot of time with them. In our early years, we lived very close indeed, and saw them regularly (more than once a week, for perhaps the first 8 years of our marriage, and of course for the 3 years before marriage). No, I wasn't there during her childhood, but certainly I have observed their family dynamic on many occasions. She was an only child until they adopted her brother when she was 14. Her father was an aircraft mechanic, her mother was a stay-at-home mom. Her father is generally a warm and thoughtful man, but some of the words I'd use to describe him are "Stubborn", "Opinionated", "Pig-headed". He also "ruled the roost" to the extent that her mother didn't dare readjust the seat and mirrors when she drove the car. I suspect also that he probably always wanted a son, and even if he wasn't overt in his disappointment, she would probably have sensed it. When she talks about her childhood, she often mentions her father being upset with her for spilling her milk. So, no, I really doubt her entire childhood was one of loving sweetness and light devoid of conflict. It was not abusive, neither was my own, but that doesn't equate to a totally non-toxic environment...
The sad thing is (I'm not saying this is true in her case, obviously) that there can be a massive amount of covert conflict without any honest forthright communication of same, at least "in front of the child". As I'm sure you're aware.
I agree that without serious buy-in from both parties in terms of facing and smacking down their respective demons, real lasting change is unlikely. (Although it's amazing how much movement one person can produce.) My caution is, don't get married to any one theory (especially, out loud to her) about where the nest of her demons might reside ... for one thing, that can be a little bit too up in her mental/emotional business, but also it might blind you to other clues.
Good for both of you for committing to the process .... she might be resisting still, but at least she's not running away screaming. It IS hard, as you know.
I like your list.
The sad thing is (I'm not saying this is true in her case, obviously) that there can be a massive amount of covert conflict without any honest forthright communication of same, at least "in front of the child". As I'm sure you're aware.
... My caution is, don't get married to any one theory (especially, out loud to her) about where the nest of her demons might reside ... for one thing, that can be a little bit too up in her mental/emotional business, but also it might blind you to other clues.
I hear you, and I agree. That's one reason why we're working with a C, and why I'm working so hard to trust the process - the determination of what's important and how to probe it is HIS job... MY (OUR) job is to work with him as best we can, and be open, forthright and honest in facing what we need to face. My expectation going in was that she would find it very difficult to face certain things, and would put up a lot of resistance, and this is indeed what I'm seeing. The thing that allows me to deal with the disappointment without coming unglued is the knowledge that in a couple of weeks we'll have another session, and another chance to deconstruct what's happening, and hopefully move closer to the truth. We've only had 2 sessions so far, so I'm being careful not to expect too much, and indeed what has come out so far is very encouraging. But the fact that she's willing to cheap-out on the first difficult task (no TV) is a sign that we have a long road ahead. Still, I'm keeping the faith, and doing what I can to work on myself and show her how much I love her. I will keep up the AOS faithfully, and without resentment, and with kindness and attentiveness, and hopefully my love for her will come through...
Sorry in advance for the length of this post...
So how was everyone's V-day weekend?
Valentine's Weekend at my house - an AOS extraveganza.
Saturday: We always have bacon and eggs for breakfast on Saturday, it's the only day I have this (I have cereal and coffee during the week). While W was making breakfast, I emptied the dishwasher and put everything away, then set the table (I always set the table anyway). W also had to take S18 to a dermatologist appointment after breakfast, so I did all the dishes (washed/dried/put away) and made sure the kitchen was spotless when she got home. I also emptied the wastebaskets throughout the house, something I almost never think to do. After lunch, I went out to get her a really nice Valentine's card, which was really perfect, because it spoke about my longing to find new ways to say "I Love You". In the afternoon, W baked a cake for V-day, and while she was doing that, I cleaned both bathrooms, dusted and vacuumed the entire house. The kids sat around all day watching the Olympics on TV, which made things difficult for me because of the no-TV challenge from the C, but I've been doing a really good job of holding onto myself (Schnarch).
Actually, Saturday morning while W was preparing breakfast, we had another conversation about the whole no-TV thing - I started by saying I felt we were going to have to "come out" to our kids about seeing a MC, because they were bound to start wondering what's going on with Dad not watching TV like usual. I also pointed out that if she's serious about not going along with it, insisting on watching TV like the Olympic coverage, and Lost on Tuesdays, the kids were also going to have questions about why Dad is following it and Mom is not. This argument didn't faze her - she was adamant that she's not going to miss the Olympics or Lost just because some C says we should give up TV for a month. Whereas for me, it comes down to a question of what's more important, my marriage, or what's on TV. I even put it to her that way, but she was having none of it.
The interesting thing about that conversation was that I remained completely calm and rational, whereas she got progressively more hot under the collar. I think for me, the fact that there'll be another session in a couple weeks is a really good pressure relief valve - I can stay calm in the face of difficulty because I know we'll be reviewing what's happened in the next session, and it'll be interesting to see how things go. I think W is backing herself into a neat little corner, where she'll find it almost impossible to defend her decision. But I digress...
I did the dishes again after supper, but this time she insisted on washing while I dried. After the dishes were done, we played Trivial Pursuit again, this time with S18, and it was pretty fun, but afterwards we just read for a bit and went to bed.
Sunday morning we had croissants for breakfast - my suggestion so she wouldn't feel the need to make anything (she usually makes pancakes, waffles or scones), and I did the dishes (there weren't many). I showered before breakfast, and when I went back into the bedroom to get her card, I noticed she had given me a chocolate airplane (rather large, and solid) but I didn't notice the card underneath it. I went back out to the kitchen to give her her card, and thanked her for the airplane. She gave me a really nice hug and kiss. Thinking once again about the no-TV thing, I said maybe we could go see one or two of the events on the big screen at the movie theatre (thinking that way, I could see some of it, since I hadn't promised to give up going to a movie), but she batted that idea away very casually ("I'm sure not going to pay to watch something I can watch for free at home"), without even considering the consequences for me. I did the lunch dishes also, and we'll be having steaks (on the BBQ), and I'm preparing the rest of the meal also.
The supper meal was a huge hit. I prepared the steaks and the potatoes (microwave), and the salad (although W made the dressing - she has a dynamite Cesar recipe), and I cooked fries for myself. The steaks were perfect (T-bones), and we even had wine. I set the table (dining room, good china, silver, crystal) - even a lit candle. Nice tunes on the stereo (Cuban - Buena Vista Social Club). We had a great meal. Afterwards, I sent W and D26 to the living room to relax while I did ALL the dishes (leaving the kitchen spotless).
Before supper, W informed me that because D26 is home for the evening, we'll be renting a movie or two (Video On Demand), because otherwise, D26 would have no option but to either sit in a silent living room (or one with music) with her parents, or hang out in her room, because S18 and his GF were hanging out in the family room. S23 is out for the evening with his GF (six months coming up soon). So if I hang onto the no-TV thing, I look like a real schmuck, so I capitulated. We watched "The Invention of Lying" with D26. After the movie, D26 was like "Turn it back to the Olympics so I can see what's happening." S23 came home while the movie was on, and informed us that we had missed Canada's first Gold medal. I left the credits running till the end, then handed the remote to D26 and left the room.
I went downstairs to check my email briefly, then came upstairs and said "I'm going to bed now," and went to bed. W followed shortly after, and thanked me for making the exception to watch the movie, and I said I still felt it was the wrong thing to do - we could have played Scrabble with D26 or something, she wasn't even expecting a movie, and that would have been more in keeping with what we're supposed to be doing. W still doesn't agree. Then we went to sleep. Still no loving, even with everything I did for W this weekend. She had said flat out in session that the thing that made her feel most loved was me doing things for her, and I've been doing that in spades, with a smile on my face, and not expecting anything in return, but I think in her mind at the moment, I'm only doing it so she'll have sex with me. The thing is, I need to connect with her on some level, and I'm doing my best, what else can I do?
Plus, the no-TV thing is now turning into a power struggle, I think, but I'm determined to see it through, if only as a demonstration of the lengths to which I'm willing to go for her. And I'll keep up the AOS, still without calling her attention to it, to see if she might eventually thaw. Just 2 and a half weeks till the next session...
Oh, I forgot to explain about the chocolate airplane. Thing is, building and flying model airplanes (Control Line, not Radio Control) is a major hobby of mine. Homebrewing is another. She said she had wanted to get me a "discovery pack" of beer - basically a six-pack of samples from local craft brewers, but the liquor store didn't have any left, so she got me the chocolate airplane instead, to show she's thinking of me. Yes, it's sweet that she thought of something like that, and the card she got me was very nice, but a little hollow given how little else she did (i.e. just a couple of tepid hugs and kisses, nothing that really said "I Really do love you"). So I'm feeling a little blue this morning...
I've also decided that this evening, I'm going to explain to the kids that W and I are getting some coaching on how to improve our marriage, and that as a result, they'll notice that things are a little different, or very different, around the house. I'll also be saying that one of the challenges we've been given is to not watch TV for 30 days, which is why they won't see Dad in front of the tube. Not that I don't want to share times with the family, but that I've committed to seeing this through.
T2,
It really sounds like she is testing you.
I can outlast you.
You will get over it.
Things will go back to the way they were where I am comfortable.
Stand up for yourself. You are on a journey of self-growth.
Wife can invest and climb on board or be left behind. Her choice. You win either way.
SpinFree
Spinfree: exactly. I'm just going to stay the course, and let the chips fall where they may...
You are doing great. I don't think you should talk about the no TV thing anymore, it's making you come across a little holier-than-thou I think. And she'll be feeling that. Carry on with the AOS because that is a commitment you've made to yourself. She most likely hasn't made a commitment to herself about getting physical with you. She is doing this at her pace, and you are doing it at yours. Don't be watching what she's doing all the time (I'm sure she feels like she's being watched).
The perfect childhood thing is something my H (the alcoholic) also claimed to have - which I didn't really buy. But there was no point ever trying to raise that with him. In fact maybe he did have a great childhood and maybe that was part of the problem. Complacency and never having learned that you have to work for things. He just expected a great M like his folks had was going to fall into his lap as his birthright. Whereas I knew that my folks had had their problems and I wanted to work at having a better M than that.
Also I believe he used my disclosures about my own upbringing as "proof" that I was the defective one. Whereas he had a perfect upbringing and was therefore fine.
An interesting dynamic is starting to become apparent. Last evening when I got home from work, I saw that there was a basket of laundry sitting there unfolded. All 3 kids had been home all day, because yesterday was a provincial "holiday" (non-mandatory, I had to work), and still nobody had folded it. So after I changed out of my clothes, I went into the living room, grabbed the basket, and started to fold (it was just a few towels and washcloths - wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to fold and put away). W came in and saw me folding, and immediately said "Don't fold those - I'll fold them later." She even grabbed the basket and started taking it down the hallway. I protested that I could certainly fold the towels and it would only take me a few minutes, and it isn't that I don't do it well, either. She then dumped the basket on the floor and started folding them herself, somewhat exasperated. I calmly helped her fold them and put them away.
I'm thinking there are a couple of possibilities here. First, I'm thinking that with me doing all these AOS for her, giving her what she said she needed to help her feel connected with me, she realizes she'll have to step up to the plate and reciprocate with me, and she doesn't want to. I think she actually liked the status quo, and isn't ready to give it up. Also, if I'm looking around and seeing things like this that aren't done, and doing them, perhaps she feels that reflects on her as a housekeeper, even though the kids were also home all day and could have (SHOULD have) folded them already. It does seem like she's starting to push back against my AOS campaign.
Last night after supper, we sat in bed and read till bedtime. We were both kind of tired, and I thought it would be a nice low-impact way to spend some time together. As for the supper dishes, I let the kids help her with that, because they should. In fact, after supper, they jumped up right away and started clearing the table, which I took as a sign that they wanted to do that, but when W was preparing to wash the dishes, they all disappeared, such that she had to go after them and ask them to come dry. Interesting. Anyway, reading in bed was nice, but it was still more of the same, in that there was no physical closeness, and she dozed most of the time, but baby steps...
This morning, I saw that the dishwasher was clean, so I emptied it and put the dishes away before breakfast. She was out of the room. I also made sure that all the dirty dishes were in the dishwasher before I left for work. The campaign continues...
This is interesting Tim. I think there is a m/f thing going on here. Something that men tend to be very good at is single-minded focus and commitment to doing something well. Women are (generally) more distractible and spread themselves thinner.
So you are single-mindedly focusing on improving your M, you've committed to doing certain things like No TV and AOS so you will do them and not be deflected. I think this is making her feel uncomfortable. I think it makes her feel like she is failing in some way.
I remember way back when, having argument after argument with my H about the household chores. He was just not pulling his weight and we had no kids back then and both worked. We finally figured out that we should each have a week on and a week off. In his week nothing would get done until the final day when he would blitz the place with incredible energy and commitment and hand over a perfect house for my week. On my week I would do a bit here and a bit there knowing that I wouldn't have enough energy to do the whole place in one hit and also knowing that I didn't like leaving things to pile up. On the last day I would (somewhat resentfully) rush around ticking off the last few things on the list. In the end the arrangement broke down because of my resentment of him doing it so well!
I think she needs you to still have a few faults, so she can feel at ease with her own. It's not all roses being married to Mr Perfect if it means you have to be Mrs Perfect.
I hear you, and I think there may be some merit in what you say, except that I'm not conveying any judgement or expectations, I'm simply doing what I feel is necessary to reconnect, given what she has said would make her feel special. And the C did give her a specific instruction that when she felt I had done something to make her feel that way, she should show her appreciation by physical means (hug, kiss, etc.), which is MY way to feel special. It's just that we've been on autopilot for SO long, I know it'll take a while to change course. I'm being patient, and I'm not feeling or showing (or implying) resentment, I'm just going to keep it up until she can trust that I'm not doing it just to manipulate her.
Tonight will be interesting, because "Lost" is on, which is one of the things W is determined to watch. We mentioned last evening that tonight we might play Scrabble, so it'll be interesting to see if she cuts the game short to watch Lost. If she does, I won't say anything, I'll just go into the bedroom to read. She's clear on the fact that I'm committed to the no-TV challenge, and I've said she's to do what she needs to. I also decided last evening not to follow through with announcing to the kids that we're seeing a C (I had decided to state it as "We're getting some coaching on improving our marriage") - I ultimately decided that it might make them nervous, and they might want reassurance that we're not going to split. It's much too early in the game to make that determination, and if I reassure them now, and then we do split, that might be doubly hurtful to them. Also, I decided that the whole C thing is actually between me and W, and while it does ultimately affect them, it doesn't include or involve them. So for now, I'm not going to call attention to it, or announce it, even in the context of the different things they now see going on in our home. If they ask me about it, I'll be up-front with them - they're adults, after all, even though they do still live at home.
Tonight will be interesting, because "Lost" is on, which is one of the things W is determined to watch.
We'll be taping it, as it turns out. So at least she's willing to meet me halfway - that's promising! It means that the "spirit" of the challenge will be met - we'll have to figure out how we're going to spend time together, which was the point. I suspect it'll be scrabble tonight...
That is wonderful! It is a sign that your wife is starting to realize that your relationship is a priority for her. As they say each action can either work to bring you together or it can work to tear a couple apart.
It also sounds like you are finding ways to work together to compromise (taping the show to watch later) and do things as a couple (scrabble) in the mean time.
I would be encouraged! Good luck.
I suspect it'll be scrabble tonight...
How about strip scrabble
I suspect it'll be scrabble tonight...
How about strip scrabble
Yeah, I WISH... but the kids are home, and S23 will have his GF over. I think she'd be a little taken aback...
Well, no scrabble last night, we just read in bed again, and went to sleep early. No conversation or closeness, she just dozed while I read, for the most part. Scrabble=Sex=Scrabble? Seems like she's tending towards avoidance behaviours, just different ones, which was kind of the point of the experiment. At dinner last night, it came out that we were taping Lost, so S23 asks "Where are you going to be?" The answer was "Here.", so he asks "Then why are you TAPING it?" So I just said Mom and I are cutting down on our TV watching in the evening and left it at that. But obviously, the kids are starting to notice things are different, which I think will lead to GOOD things...
As she was driving me to work this morning (a 5-min drive), I suggested that we should sometimes go to bed early just to be together, cuddle and talk. We used to chat in bed sometimes, like we were having a sleepover, and that was nice. We seriously need to reconnect on many levels, and what with the kids, and the housework, etc, etc, it just never seems to happen. I'm hoping we can create, at least occasionally, a sort of cocoon-like atmosphere, where we can start to regain some of that "us against the world" feeling...
EDITED - ADVERTISING is NOT ALLOWED. You must comply with the DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here.
Where did Hairdog and rest of the gang go to? I haven't posted in years, but wondering where they are...
Hopefully they're doing better than me...
Some are on ftio. Hairdog isn't posting much there anymore either.
ftio? Good to see you again, GGB, I do remember you (feel like I'm gonna go blind soon, too - I already wear bifocals, lol!)
Never mind... found it...
Had a REALLY fantastic weekend! I kept up the AOS campaign, and I also went out in the morning and bought the 5 Love Languages book, which I read from cover to cover that same day. It turned out that all the kids were out on Saturday night, and we had the house to ourselves. I really wasn't expecting anything much, but W really surprised me - as soon as she got home from driving S18 and D26 to their respective destinations, she announced she was taking a shower, which is her way of saying "Let's ML". So after her shower, I took one too (she appreciates this, not that I was smelly or anything), and then we proceeded to have one of the ALL-time sweetest LM sessions ever! I mean it was REALLY great, which really surprised me, because the last few times we've ML these past years, it has been really tepid and not much to write home about. THIS time, however, it REALLY knocked my socks off! She was really participating fully, and the whole experience really made me feel her love for me. WOW! Afterwards, we both filled out the Love Languages profile questionnaire, and it turns out that for her, both AOS and Quality Time are equal primary LL's - she scored 10 on both. As for Physical Touch, she's a 3, and I'm a 12 (big surprise there?). I'm also fairly high on Words of Affirmation, which also didn't surprise either of us. So now I know I'm on the right track with my AOS campaign, and I can also broaden it to include QT. Sunday I helped with the cleanup at breakfast, leaving the kitchen spotless while she was in the shower, and again in the afternoon I helped with the cleanup (she made pizzelles), and I barbecued hamburgers for supper, and then shooed her out of the kitchen and did the dishes myself. After that, we had a Boggle tournament for an hour or so, then read for a while and went to bed (to sleep) early. All in all a GREAT weekend! I sure hope we can keep up the momentum, but yes, I do realize there will be some backsliding, and there's still a lot of work to do, but what a GREAT start!
That sounds wonderful. Congratulations. It sounds like you are filling her love bank in the language that she needs to be told you love her in.
At some point when you feel that you have made the transition from a SSM to a "normal" sex life with the standard amount of marital troubles and challenges, maybe you could add some comments to Bagheera's sticky topic, "The Four Phases of SSM Recovery." Your post makes it sound like you have made some breakthroughs and significant progress between you and your wife.
In particular information that shares the time it took you and your wife to reach those phases that Bagheera describes and any key events, books that helped you at various stages.
Until I started seeing progress with my wife (I still feel like I am in an SSM, but just not quite as starved as I was a few months ago), one of the things that I really struggled with was how long change takes (if one is lucky enough for SSM recovery to happen) and what were reasonable goals.
Hi Tim,
I was skimming your posts and wondering if I could ask you a question for my own sitch...Did you ever try Retrouvialle or other courses? Did they help if you did, or was it just a waste of time?
YoungAtHeart: I will certainly add comments to that thread if and when I consider my marriage as having been recovered - while we have made some early progress, I would definitely not say we've made any really important breakthroughs yet. I think I've mentioned that in our last counseling session, the C gave us a challenge to give up TV for 30 days. I've mostly held to that, having only watched TV twice since then, and not at all since Valentine's day, which has not been at all easy, given that the Olympics were on, but W has not been so onside with that. For instance, last evening she insisted on watching the closing ceremonies, so I spent the evening alone in our room, reading (finished the latest novel). I had wanted to ML last night, and had asked her earlier in the evening if she thought we could, but at the end of the evening, she wasn't up to it, so we had a nice cuddle-time instead. Meantime, I continue working on myself.
I think for us, counseling is going to be key. We have another session coming up Wednesday night, and I'm looking forward to it. The tricky part with counseling is finding a good C who can help. This is the third one we've tried - the first one neither of us was really impressed with, the second one I felt was good, but W felt she was taking my side too much. That leads me to think that W just isn't very interested in confronting some of the difficult stuff she needs to confront about herself. We'll see - so far we both seem willing to work with the current C, and I really think he may be able to help.
OnTheMountainTop: We haven't tried Retrouvaille, but many years ago (1981 or so?) we did do a Marriage Encounter weekend. It was good, but I think those things should be thought of as a good start, or a tool to get things moving in the right direction, but a weekend retreat isn't going to be a fix for entrenched problems.
As far as how long each phase takes, assuming the phases are a good general description of what actually happens (which I'm not completely convinced of, yet), I think it very much depends on a given sitch, such that there can't even be general guidelines to watch for - each sitch is just too different. Not sure, but I'll let you know...(and I'd ask the same of you...)
Do you think having so many older kids at home are part of the problem? Does she feel 'free' when she's out, but feel tied up to you and the kids (obligated) at home?
PS- thanks for the answer about Retro...
Do you think having so many older kids at home are part of the problem? Does she feel 'free' when she's out, but feel tied up to you and the kids (obligated) at home?
I think having the 3 kids at home is DEFINITELY a problem, but not one I think will be solved anytime soon, unfortunately. D26 has her Education degree, but the job market for elementary teachers is pretty thin at the moment. She is getting work as a substitute, but she's also deep in debt (mainly to us), so she won't be able to afford to move out anytime soon, and there's no BF or STBH on the horizon to sweep her off her feet and out of our hair, either, lol. S23 is just starting out as a sales rep for Xerox, and has yet to find his "sea-legs" as it were, and is also pretty deep in debt, but I think he'll be the first to move out, just not soon enough for my liking...
So, yeah, that's a problem, especially since we live in a 3+1 bedroom bungalow, not large, and not a lot of privacy. Still, we've been seen to go to bed early (around 10:30) lately, so my position is what the kids don't know... (but she's too inhibited).
And, no, if we're out, things aren't much better - we spent a weekend in Niagara Falls last October, and she wasn't too much more "free". (sigh). And it looks like no s-e-x this week, either, but we have a C session tomorrow night, so maybe something productive will come out of that...
There are teacher jobs in Alberta! We're a very clean province if you don't live by any oil refineries~
My 10 yr old said something like "I ignore those sounds at night"...I hope she means the neighbours...!!
Maybe if your kids heard, they wouldn't care. We all say "yuck" to the idea, but if someone asked if they wanted their parents to do it, I think adults understand it is important in a marriage and would feel better about it.
I can't remember if you said you were going to an IC yourself. If you are about to start, maybe you could get one that deals with sex related problems, too. Has she already passed menopause or is it just starting? Maybe there's some reason a doc, or an IC could work out with you or both of you.
Good luck with the MC tomorrow - I hope you can find a way to get your best side out there to sell her on future counselling. I found it hard to not get into an argument with my W. Not helpful at all...
Maybe if your kids heard, they wouldn't care. We all say "yuck" to the idea, but if someone asked if they wanted their parents to do it, I think adults understand it is important in a marriage and would feel better about it.
Yeah, that's the thing - it's not about what the KIDS would think, it's more about what SHE'S worried the kids might think, even if they suspected something, which, given the great lengths taken to avoid it, would be pretty unlikely. Truth is, they consider us boring old farts, and take very little notice of us. We could get away with incredible acts of daring, if only we (both) had the nerve...
And yes, she's well into menopause, and it's actually pretty much a non-issue now. To be honest, I'd be hard pressed to notice any difference in her sex drive between her 30's and now - i.e. it's never been about hormones, and it's never been in what I would call an acceptable range. My position at the moment is that if this round of counseling doesn't get us on track in some reasonable way, i.e. at the end of it, there's no appreciable chance of having the kind of marriage I'm wanting, then we're pretty much done - there won't be much else to talk about. But I work at not thinking in those terms, even now I think it's premature.
There may be some possibility of IC at some point, tomorrow is only our 3rd MC session, which so far have been at 3 to 4 week intervals, but going forward they'll be more like 2-week intervals, so hopefully we'll get to the meat soon. So far it's just been kind of preliminary. If the MC thinks one or both of us could benefit from IC, we'll go that route - we've found what seems to be a great practice here in town, with C's of various specialties working in a group, so I'm pretty hopeful that if there's any help for us, we'll find it there. Thanks for the well-wishes, I'll let you know how it goes.
If the problem has always been there, it might be hormones...Did you read the sexless marriage book?
I barely touched my W for 9 of the 11 years, and I promise you I have no hormonal shortage. Worried about more kids, not connecting with her, the sex was never very good (good at most), and frankly I thought she didn't like it that much. I know her self-esteem was a big part of why the sex sucked. Also, because I wasn't connecting well with her, I didn't feel a love for doing it with her. The book, "Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" was an eye opener that helped me connect better, making her more able to give it better.
The biggest thing to help the sex for me was reading about the problems we were having (don't laugh - but she was too wet..., etc.) and finding some solutions (time of day - mornings are much more relaxed for me, maybe for her, too). Even more powerful was talking out loud about it in a way that was about me and my needs, not about her. Telling her not that I wanted it, dealing with some embarrasments (like admitting some one-on-one over the years). In my religion, sex is something valued for an emotional connection, so it isn't a taboo topic, but it caught her by surprise to talk about it out loud.
Maybe 180s in this area would be valuable. What have you tried that doesn't work (scheduling sex, etc.). Maybe try something else. Someone here said something about hormonal cremes. Maybe that kind of thing could help.
I know you are ready to move on if this round doesn't work, but is it possible to see the round as not couselling, but gradual change with a timeline? MC can bring up old issues that take time to resolve. In the meantime, your hard work might get you a hard reward (:
My W wanted 4-5 week intervals. I said our M was worth the money and change needs to happen for us both to be happy. I got her to 2 wk intervals but she dropped out. I kept going. My changes opened her eyes, as did beginning the D in Oct. Now, she's opening up. Still, one year from when we began, I know I have a deadline - May. If things aren't working out, I'm moving on. I'm putting my eggs into my basket, not into the hopes of a perfect counselor. A good MC can still not hit all the notes for everyone.
Rememeber Tim, I'm 34 and you've got leagues of experiences I don't have. You stuck it out for years more than I. Read what I say with that in mind...~
Can I try another personal question?
What makes you sure that your staying for your kids was worth it? Pretend you had divorced, (I hope you don't, your sitch seems to need sex alot, but I kinda feel you have a real opportunity by doing things a bit differently), you'd likely have remarried in your 40s before menopause and all that stuff. 10 years later, it might be a little more challenging (or easier?) Was her love/your love enough for the last 10 years to satisfy your non-physical needs?
Can I try another personal question?
What makes you sure that your staying for your kids was worth it? Pretend you had divorced, (I hope you don't, your sitch seems to need sex alot, but I kinda feel you have a real opportunity by doing things a bit differently), you'd likely have remarried in your 40s before menopause and all that stuff. 10 years later, it might be a little more challenging (or easier?) Was her love/your love enough for the last 10 years to satisfy your non-physical needs?
Can you imagine how many times I've asked myself that? That's the thing that sucks - I'm not even sure anymore why I'm even still here. Part of it was "going dark" for years at a time - just put the R on autopilot, practice avoidance behaviors, just keep on keepin' on. Work at hobbies so the lonliness doesn't get too bad, but, surprise, it's still really lonely. The kids are a joy, and all looking to be very successful and happy, so nothing can take that away. My big fear always has been when they move out, and it's just me and W looking at each other going "Who are you?" I know I do still love her deeply, or at least it feels like that when we do (rarely) connect, but what we've had is just not enough. Not for the long haul (and I know that 30 years looks like "long haul" to most folks, but I'm thinking 60 or more). I also know that we're both still young enough to find happiness with someone else if it should come to that, but that clock is ticking, that ship will sail at some point.
Yes, we've read pretty much all the books (several by MWD, Schnarch, Gottman, McGraw, etc.), and she's tried hormonal creams. She saw an IC back in '04 for a while, but that one was so supportive of her, she made things worse. W came out of that validated and seeing no reason to be more loving towards me - rather I was being too demanding. 3 other C's disagree, but never mind that.
So I'm just hoping this MC can help me (us) clarify things in our mind, see the possibilities, challenge us BOTH to work on ourselves, and hope the sum of all that adds up to a dynamic marriage.
Long haul is a good way to put it. I'm 34, so unless one of us dies early, her gma lived to 98!
I've had those "who are you" fears, too. The fact that you've made it till now shows a lot of courage. Yes, your choice of avoidance and 'going dark' didn't seem to be helpful, but you survived. I can't help but wonder if that could have been enough so you could talk to her, listen to her, and make her feel like a respected & cared for person. For me, I've already spend 1 of my 11 years living somewhat apart from her, and the farther apart I got, the less I was able to be patient, kind, etc. to her.
My W felt the IC was on my side more than hers. The counselor did acknoweldge a couple times that she had an easier time understanding my perspective because of a shared culture. I don' think that cut any of the feeling of the MC being a waste of time from her.
It is good to hear that you want to be challenged by your MC, too. There's got to be something that she can notice you might not notice on your own, or her by herself.
Have a great session...maybe it will lead to some "hanky panky"...?
Have a great session...maybe it will lead to some "hanky panky"...?
Actually, the session was very disappointing, for both of us. MC spent most of the session talking, and/or trying to draw W out about her FOO stuff. Didn't even ask for a progress report, "Gee, it's been 3 weeks. How are you kids getting along? Anything significant happen since we last met?" Nothing like that. Thing is, on the way home after the session, W and I started talking about how we were both feeling let down, and we ended up having a great convo about the very topics I had wanted to cover in session. But no, no hanky-panky that night. HOWEVER... last night was AMAZING!! Another evening when all the kids were out, and we had an epic LM session - HOT!! The thing is, we ML 3 times last year (total), and the sex was really crappy. Now, in the past 2 weeks, we've ML twice, and it's the best sex I've ever had - seriously! Well, maybe not the BEST, but way up there. W is not just "there", she's an active participant, and acting like the hot momma I always knew she was (but she's rarely shown me). If we can keep up 2X/mo, that'll be a 1600% increase over last year (or in fact, the last few years!). So, suffice to say that while I know we still have lots to work on, I'm feeling pretty optimistic that we can do so effectively.
That's awesome, Tim! It is weird how ML can be so different when all the stage is set right. Did you think your kids being away was the main factor, or the connection you made after the bad MC, or something else? Was it a self-esteem thing for her (did you complement her in some way like "hot momma" that maybe turned her on)
To me, I found that when I or my W let out some tough emotions on any topic, we connect better physically. Maybe there is something you can figure out that got the mood and moment to match.
By the way, Tim, consider checking out Retrouvaille. Now that I've gone (and another poster, TBL), we've both found some real positives I wouldn't have expected. The marriage encounter may have some overlap, but the focus of Retrouv is when a couple is separated or divorcing. That changes things a lot. Just hearing from people that are a similar boat (presenters, participants keep it all private) is helpful. The method is probably very different because these marriages, like yours, is in jeapordy.
What could it hurt? It is on the weekend, there's a minimum cost but the rest is a requested donation. Getting agreement might be an issue, but your kids are a tool that might convince your W to try it out.
Are things going better now, Tim?
They are, indeed. I'll post more later, but W and I have been seeing the MC every 2 weeks for a while now, and things are definitely looking up. Not totally resolved by a long-shot, but better. We've ML very passionately 3 times now this year, and also a couple of attempts, so not so SS anymore, which is good. We're also working to resolve some of our other issues, such as having 2 adult and 1 near-adult kids living at home still. Haven't felt like screaming in a while now...
Tim2point0,
You got "3 times" this year. Thats terrible! However many of us are worse off.
Hey, that was 3X as of the end of April! Last year, it was 3X for the WHOLE YEAR, and the sex was terrible. It's much better now.
Tim2point0,
She obviously wants to keep you "hooked", LOL.
My wife was under the impression that if she stays mean to me and restrictive that the tussy is going to be better when I do get it. Like its more "top shelf".
I had to explain to her, what makes the tussy good is for a woman to desire you strongly. I guess the stronger the desire the better it is or can be.
Anyway, I'm sure most of you LBH understand this.
I don't even think I got scraps this year. Oh, may be 2x.
in the past I thought dropping down to the American average of 2x a week was terrible... And I SHOULD think that.
3x at the end of April, I'd try to keep that streak going.
3x at the end of April, I'd try to keep that streak going.
You got that right.
In a nutshell: We've been in a nearly-platonic marriage for many, many years. For the past 10 years or so, we've been making periodic focused attempts to resolve the issues and rescue our marriage. When I started this process, we couldn't even agree that there was a problem. During the past 10 years, as each rescue attempt would grind to a halt, we'd go back on auto-pilot for another year or two (the last "dark period" was about 3 years). During the "dark periods", sex would be about as frequent as during most of the "autopilot" years - maybe once or twice (for the year), rarely more often, and usually very sub-standard. New Years' Eve this past year, we spent the evening just as most evenings, even though all the kids were out. We watched TV, she fell asleep, end of story. Except... when midnight came, she broke down and cried, and we had a long conversation, and we BOTH stated that we could not continue living like that, and we agreed to find a marriage counselor and start working to revive our marriage if we could.
Our first MC session was, IIRC, the third week of January. Second session was towards the end of Feb. So, from a sex perspective, Jan was a write-off, but in Feb we ML very passionately for the first time in YEARS. Then again in March, and again in April. And in between were some times that were not quite at the height of passion, but admirable attempts for various reasons.
And we got really lucky to find a GREAT counselor. He keeps us focused on the issues, calls us on our BS, and makes sure we BOTH feel heard. Several sessions have focused mainly on W's issues, and yet she doesn't come away from such a session feeling "attacked", and she has made admirable process in revising her POV. So have I. I now do a lot more for her, and we work together on a lot of stuff whereas in the past we were mostly living parallel lives. We're making great progress. The sex thing is still an issue, and we have other issues besides, which we're now becoming more aware of, which is the first step in solving them.
The best advice I can give is: If you try a counselor, and they don't seem to be helping, try another counselor. And another. And another, if necessary. We first tried counseling about 10 years ago, and that didn't last 3 sessions. We both felt he was an idiot. Then we tried another a year or two later, but that didn't work out, either. I liked her a lot, and felt she could help, but W felt she was just focusing on MY issues, and W didn't feel heard at all. Then W tried IC, but that counselor seemed to just validate W's POV and not indicate any kind of change needed, so that didn't help ME at all. One thing that all 3 of these C's had in common was they were paid for through the EAP at work, which is only geared for short-term issues, and not set up for big problems like ours. They don't let you choose a C, you just have to take what they give you. This time, we decided to go out and find our own C, and pay for it ourselves, so we can continue as long as we need to, without regard to any limits imposed by the EAP. And the C is part of a practice, so if it wasn't working out with him, there are other MC's in the practice that we could switch to. Anyway, so far this one seems to be working very well.
Very proud of you Tim, very proud. A trouper - the effort you have been putting in will be repaid through knowing that you put your heart into it.
I'm sure there'll be bad days...but that is the nature of life. We grow into better people from those (or give up and run away~)
Your W deserves some praise, too. Rememeber how she had pretty much given up. But, with your love and work, she's replacing burnt out cells and replacing them with ones full of life.
Your news made a cloudy day here in Calgary much sunnier!
+1 on finding a good counselor and in sticking with trying until you feel you have made progess or are totally ready to write off your spouse.
I am so happy for you. I'll bet you and your spouse will look back on this as an important year.
Thanks, guys. Not quite time to break out the balloons and streamers just yet, but we're definitely making progress, and I'm learning a lot. About myself as well as about her and our R. For example, one issue we've been wrestling with lately has to do with the fact that we've got, essentially, 3 adult kids living at home, and what with their comings and goings, we have very little in the way of privacy or private time. When the kids are in the house, W feels inhibited WRT ML, so the best (mostly only) times are when all 3 kids are dependably out of the house for a few hours. So we've been discussing what we can do, and one stragegy we came up with in MC this week is that the kids give us one night per week when they will be out of the house - every week. That gives us an opportunity every week, which we may or may not take full advantage of, but at least it's there. We're also going to work out a specific plan with the two older ones so that there's a date in the future by which they'll be living elsewhere. Not summarily kicking them out, but giving them a particular time-frame, so they don't just keep living here in open-ended fashion, and this will help to drive some of the choices they will make in the coming months.
Anyway, there's still a LOT of work to do, and I don't feel we've really begun to get down to brass tacks with the REAL issues yet, but I feel like we'll be starting to get there in the near future, and in the meantime we're able to spend more meaningful time together and start to rebuild the connection. I think the kids-at-home thing has been a smoke-screen, which has helped us avoid the real issues, which we probably both have some reluctance to tackle, as they're likely to be somewhat uncomfortable to deal with. But I think we'll get there. It still could turn out that we ultimately decide to end the marriage, but if that does happen, at least we'll both know why...