I feel so ashamed and pathetic. My wife has denied me sexual relations for over a decade. She had a hysterectomy several years ago, but she has been denying me sex long before that point. She really is not interested in sex, and in fact, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.
It has been 14 years since this started. Is my marriage a fraud? I really don't want to give up on my marriage. I take my vows to my wife, and to God, seriously.
I have tried being a good husband. I has never cheated on my wife, and always been there fore her. I have ceded much of the control of our family to her. She decided what home we live in, what car I drive, what money we spend, where our children go to school.
Maybe I should just give up on sexual relations. My wife clearly has. She is focused really on money, not on God, or her husband. She really enjoys making money, and spending it. Perhaps I have enabled some of her behavior, but again, I have been extremely passive in our relationship.
We stopped having sex when I was in my 20's. I am now in my 40's, and not getting any younger. Maybe the time has just come to completely give up, and live out the rest of my life in this position. Quite honestly, I would almost prefer this, then another humiliating episode with my wife.
I feel like such a loser. Maybe that is the reality of the situation, and I need to accept it.
Your not pathetic! But you have come to the right place. You will get some great advice here, and it WILL be a good source of support for you.
I am in the same boat as you, and have just recently found this site as well. Its been a god send so far, and I am trying one last attempt with the help and advice from some ppl on this site before I give up entirely.
If you read my thread, you'll see what I mean.
So hang in there.
mrpathetic,
The first thing I want you to do is give yourself a new and positive screen name - I am not joking.
Then I want you to read my first few detailed posts to other members such as Tyguy and Tiredofpain - click on my name and you'll find them - you're not the first guy to show up on this board with this problem. I've given in those posts a lot of information already which I've no time to repeat right now.
I then want you have to consider this next point very carefully:
YOUR PROBLEM GOES WAY DEEPER THAN SIMPLY A LACK OF SEX.
As I've said to other guys in your position, the lack of sex is just a symptom (not the only one) of a certain mindset and attitude to life that you have and have probably had for many years.
I want you to start delving into that mindset - passive, fearful, ashamed, impoverished - right now. If you can, write up your thoughts on where it comes from, where you think its taking you right now, and where YOU want to take your life instead.
Have a real brainstorm and post up the results. I will check in later this weekend.
You've come to a good place with some very wise people that can definitely help you.
S&A
Mr. Pathetic.
The previous poster is spot on. Please change your name.
Women are not attractive to male "victims." This includes your W.
It's been forever since I've posted but neither here nor there. Got sentimental for the SSM BB as a single man and came home with one too many pinots in the belly.
Good chance I won't follow up so don't be offended, my friend.
She really is not interested in sex, and in fact, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.
It has been 14 years since this started. Is my marriage a fraud? I really don't want to give up on my marriage. I take my vows to my wife, and to God, seriously.
- No. She love sex. She forgot she does because you are showing nothing but weakness. She does not want to have sex with a weak, passive, self-loathing man. Yes, I'm harsh, but you need to snap out of your victim mentality.
No she won't discuss sex. Of course not. Too icky for the F. They would rather be lead by a strong male who takes control without verbiage. One who is confident and thinks he is a good catch for her.
Don't you know all human communication is 93% body language and tone and 7% spoken word?
Your M is not a fraud. Otherwise she would have left you long ago -- believe me, I know.
I have tried being a good husband. I has never cheated on my wife, and always been there fore her. I have ceded much of the control of our family to her. She decided what home we live in, what car I drive, what money we spend, where our children go to school.
- And this is your demise, laid right out in black and white. Your subconscious is telling you as much and that's why you're agitated.
Ever heard of The Passion Paradox? PhD wrote it. You see, basically he discovered the linkage between love and the feeling of lack of control. They are linked resolutely. The chemicals that feed the feelings of "love" are the chemicals that likewise feed the feelings of being "out of control."
Hence, if your W understands consciously or subconsciously, that you are there for her no matter what, in any circumstance, then her F brain gets bored and is actually mad at you for being such a lack of a challenge. Total control. Boring.
I know because my x ejected me from her life for the same reason ... why, who wants boring reliable me when there are so many alpha males with "edge" out there?
You're not "juicing" her. Start getting mysterious, friend. Pick up something new, find a passion.
But again, I have been extremely passive in our relationship.
We stopped having sex when I was in my 20's. I am now in my 40's, and not getting any younger. Maybe the time has just come to completely give up, and live out the rest of my life in this position. Quite honestly, I would almost prefer this, then another humiliating episode with my wife.
- See? You are telling yourself you are passive and your "man's man" inside is hating you for it. Your W is rapidly losing respect for you for being weak. But she loves you still. Dilemma. Therefore, her only option is to kkeep loving you while turning off her sexual attraction for you -- because that part of her is only attracted to a man who leads.
If you were just dating she would have already left you ore started Fing someone else by now. Harsh, yes, but factual. She's not happy that she's the "man" in your R. Again, yes, it hurts but you need to understand this.
START LEADING YOUR R.
I feel like such a loser. Maybe that is the reality of the situation, and I need to accept it.
You are not a loser. Just frustrated. Be the man she fell in love with. Dangit! Why do so many Ms forget that devil-may-care guy???
That's who they fell in love with!
Take charge, Mr. pathetic. If she only cares about money then find a way to make more and see if you still want her as a part of your life. If she just cares about a paycheck then think about your options in terms of ejecting or keeping her.
Stop making her the center of your universe. Make her a part of it that you want along for the ride. I'm telling you, Fs hate to be in charge of the relationship. They, for the most part, want to know they're with a man who can protect them and take care of them without much decisionmaking on their behalf.
Be strong, guy, you can do it.
Don't let her see any insecurity or weakness or self-loathing. That's a huge turnoff.
Confidence-confidence-confidence. Lead, lead, lead.
-Stigmata-
(Who is sick and tired of seeing the feminization/emasculization of the American male.)
1) you are only pathetic if you choose to be.
2) man up. go to the '[censored]' website and subscribe to the free email their.
3) you are a loser if you choose to be.
I'm hearing a man who has lost his edge nothng more.
Get your edge back. You can do it.
You're getting good advice, Mr. P. Now, I'm going to back off from the good advice you're getting just a little bit.
What these people are trying to tell you is NOT that you are actually a weakling. What they're trying to tell you about is the image you're showing your wife. They're guessing (always keep in mind that everyone here is giving you educated guesses) that this is how she sees you, based on the impression you're giving here. And the point they're really trying to make is that while it's normal and natural and reasonable to feel pathetic and weak when the woman you share your life with doesn't want to make love with you, it doesn't work. It only drives her away. She can't be attracted to a man who believes he's a weakling.
Now, the good news: You are not a weakling. You could be decisive. You could be strong. You could be a leader, if perhaps a quiet one. The reason everyone here is focusing on your self-image and your behavior is not that your wife is necessarily blameless for the state of your marriage--it's only because they want to give you ways that YOU can start to make changes that will help YOU feel better, whether your wife is completely on board or not.
It won't be easy. If your wife has taken over so completely, she probably doesn't trust that you're going to take the lead in your life. She probably figures you'll slack off eventually and she'll be stuck taking care of you again, like you're just another one of the kids. Don't let it happen.
As to where this poor self-image comes from, well, I could write volumes on this. But here is a summary, and I will try to be brief:
a) alcoholic, abusive father, who committed suicide when I was growing up;
b) weak, co-dependent mother, who enabled my father's behavior almost to the very end;
c) impoverished background - my parents were never able to own their own home, for numerous reasons, see point a;
d) Because of my impoverished background, and other reason, I was the school punching bag when I was growing up;
e) women have always disliked me. For this reason, my love live and sex life have always been pathetic. I was virgin until age 23. My wife is the only woman I have ever had relations with. And she would only have sex with me for the first 4 years of our marriage.
So to summarize the situation, I suffer from a whole series of emotional problems, that make me extremely passive and fearful.
Another poster has told me to start acting like a man, and start being a leader - an alpha male, to use his terminology. In order to be that, I would need to become something I am not, and have never been. In fact, this would require me to change my personality entirely - to almost become someone else.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jeckyl, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?
You ARE strong enough to be the leader in your own life. Alpha Male is an overused term . . . . in animals that actually have Alpha Males, there's only one in each social group, and he has to die or be defeated by a challenger before there can be a new one. The old wolf dies, and ONE of the young males becomes the alpha. The rest of the pack aren't worthless or pathetic because they aren't that one leader everyone looks to . . . but the rest of the pack generally know their place in the order.
Humans lose that sometimes. You don't have to be the one leader everyone looks up to, the big man on campus. You just have to find where you fit into things. You have to make yourself happy, and truthfully, your wife might or might not go along with that. You can't know for sure.
I haven't had the background you had. I won't kid you; that's a very hard start you had there. But I did come here having spent ten years in a sex-starved relationship with my wife. I hated it. I was furious at her constantly, and I was sure I was a pathetic loser. I was sure she was punishing me for a hundred different things, and what I hated most was when she would tell me that it wasn't me, she just wasn't interested--anything intended to spare my feelings only made it 100 times worse. I was sure she knew how I felt and just didn't care (and who cares how a pathetic loser feels anyway, when no one respects him?)
The truth was she didn't respect me.
I listened to people here (well, usually) and I did my best. I'm still working on it, but our life is very different now. It's not just the sex; I feel like I can earn her respect, now. I respect myself, and the truth is, I didn't before.
You might want to start by thinking about what would make you happy. If you were happy in your marriage, what would that look like? What would be happening? What would be said? Then you can worry about how to get there, but for now, think about your goals.
Have you read The Sex-Starved Marriage? I detest self-help books, but it makes a HUGE difference to read it. You'll see yourself in it, and you'll see her in it. It will help you realize that she might be just as trapped as you are. Just because she's the one who says "no" doesn't mean that she feels like she has any control over anything, either. Please read it.
Path.,
I too think the use of "alpha" male is extremely overused and misappropriated. If the world were full of so called "alpha males" in every species it would be a complete disaster.
Don't worry, you don't have to be BMOC stud suddenly. You just have to be able to lead your wife.
Embracing an image of yourself as, as your Topic Title says, "Ashamed and Pathetic" is not going to get your W's amorous attentions. A friend of mine on here once labeled it aptly: "psychological stench."
If you loathe yourself then you have to understand your W has no choice but to also loathe you on some level. It's in her biology. Yes, we're above the animal kingdom proper but her genes still drive her to feel safe with a man who can guarantee the survival of her offspring and be strong when it's required.
Feeling weak and powerless and/or psychologically impotent sends a very repellent message to her and, *flip!* switches off her attraction for you.
As Bear said, it also causes her to lose respect for you and that's the deadliest consequence of them all. And you can't blame her. It's hard for humans to respect someone if he/she doesn't respect him/herself.
Your background sucks in terms of developing a healthy sense of self worth. If I could urge you to do something it would be to dissociate yourself from the guy in letters AD in your list.
The past is past. Gone. That's not who you are; so try not to punish yourself by continuing to associate with that image. You can change your self image any time you want in your life so why not now? You're in charge of what you do today, not that guy in the past. Not some punching bag outcast from the 9th grade.
Remember: it's not what you dit; it's what you do next that counts.
e) women have always disliked me. For this reason, my love live and sex life have always been pathetic. I was virgin until age 23. My wife is the only woman I have ever had relations with. And she would only have sex with me for the first 4 years of our marriage.
- I would argue this first part. I would guess you felt they never liked you because you never liked yourself much nor thought worthy of their attention. Hence, they had no choice but to shun you.
You can't go back and change your sexual history/feeling of inadequacy but you can try and gain more confidence right now one step at a time.
Listen. It's very, very hard for a woman not to, again, on some level, want to jump on top of a man who radiates he hasn't a clue in the bedroom in terms of taking control of the situation.
I heard it from a hotti's own mouth recently. She said even if she's really into a guy or even dating him, if he says he's only slept with say 3 Fs in his life she says something inside her twinges and she thinks to herself, what? 3? Why? Is there something wrong with him? Said she couldn't explain it exactly but that it was almost better to hear about a guy who had a lot of encounters with women as she can forgive his playing the field since he obviously has what "it" takes to attract enough Fs to sleep with him.
But don't beat yourself up. You're fine. Your W knows you're not a Don Juan. If she were after that, she wouldn't be with you. You obviously have some very attractive qualities of your own for her.
Just gotta start believing in yourself so she can get on board and believe in you too and find herself sexually attracted to you.
So to summarize the situation, I suffer from a whole series of emotional problems, that make me extremely passive and fearful.
- Immediately remove the word "suffer" from your vocabulary. This is self-imposed and pointless self-torture. Remember, your W doesn't want to feel she's with a man who thinks of himself as a fearful "victim"
Start today and tell yourself you are no longer that guy. Continuing being passive and fearful in your R is forcing your W into a role she does not like -- wresting control of your household from you so everything in your lives -- heck, and your future -- doesn't sink into a morass of fear and powerlessness at all levels.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jeckyl, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?
- Not a complete personality change. Small steps, pal. Dr. Jekyll is a great guy. He has a career path and a passion. Your image of yourself is already Mr. Hyde. Pretty ugly view of yourself.
Come on. You gotta start seeing yourself as something valuable for your W to hold onto. A real catch. Trust me, it will make her feel much happier and grateful to have a guy who is so self assured and even the envy of her friends.
I know. That seems scary impossible right now. But you gotta take that first small step.
I might suggest starting by being decisive in your R. If your W asks you what you want to do, eat etc. be the guy who already has the answer...
NOT: "Sigh. I don't care. What do you want to do/eat?"
YES: "Hm, I suddenly have a craving for Mexican food. Get ready, babe, we're going for Mexican."
W: "But I don't want Mexican."
You: "O come on, it will be fine. You asked, I'm choosing. If you hate it we'll we'll wing it and go somewhere else."
You can do it, Im Pathetic. God, I hate your screen name.
If I were to give you one last word of advice it would be to start being positive and do this one thing for your W every single day, no matter what:
MAKE HER SMILE.
At least once each day. Not gifts, etc. Just let her know she's sexy and fun. Hang in there.
-Stigmata-
Dude (you REALLY do need to get a better screen name),
I've read about your background - that was tough - but... everyone has had some kind of childhood problems. Very few men (or women) don't feel they have some kind of inner unhappiness or wound or hole inside them. It is these issues that can sabotage our adult relationships - if we let them.
A painful but very necessary lesson I've learned is that a man can't look to his wife for love he didn't get from his parents when he was a boy. He mustn't expect her to tend his childhood wounds. He has to do that himself. He has to fill the emptiness inside himself. Once ful(l)filled, he can then love his wife from strength and want and desire, not weakness or neediness or fear. If he's with the right kind of woman, he will then get womanly love back.
I see definite positives in your situation - despite your difficult start, you have a job, a wife and children. You write honestly and do have insight into your current situation. And you do want it to improve.
But you clearly suffer from low self-esteem, see yourself as a victim, and are disconnected from your inner masculine spirit. I very much used to be in that (mental) situation. The good news is that your problems can definitely be solved - IF you are willing to take responsibility for yourself, work HARD, and do the things I suggest for YOURSELF first and foremost. By that I mean that you must not improve yourself in the hope that your wife will "reward" you with lots of sex (you probably know that that kind of thinking has got you nowhere, but I emphasise the point).
What your life must be about from now on, is being the best man you can be. If you conscientiously set about that task and STICK to it, you will inevitably alter the dynamics of your marriage, your relationship with your children, and probably every other relationship you have.
I'm going to post again with some more ideas, but for now there are four things I want you to consider:
(1) I wouldn't normally suggest this, but have you had therapy or counselling for your childhood issues? In other words, have you had these wounds tended by a professional, or are you expecting (even just subconsciously) your wife to do it for you? Sex makes a lousy bandage. Think about it.
(2) I understand you are probably filled with all kinds of fear at the thought of changing yourself, of confronting (and being rejected by) your wife. But fear is an integral part of human existence, and a man must learn to confront his fears if there is to be joy in his life. The very worst thing that is ever going to happen to you is that you will die. Well, you're going to die anyway, right? Its guaranteed. So, your immediate concern must be how you're going to live up until that inevitable moment of death. And it makes no sense for fear of lesser things than death - disapproval of others, rejection by your wife etc - to stifle you.
(3) This next thing is going to sound a bit weird. Start smiling frequently. When you feel depressed and unloved this is the last thing you feel like doing. It feels forced, even fake. But the very act of smiling does actually release certain chemicals which have the effect of lifting the mood. Start smiling throughout the day.
(4) You asked:
"Another poster has told me to start acting like a man, and start being a leader - an alpha male, to use his terminology. In order to be that, I would need to become something I am not, and have never been. In fact, this would require me to change my personality entirely - to almost become someone else.
Is that what is required? Do I need to act like Dr. Jekyll, and find the potion that transforms me into Mr. Hyde?"
The short answer to your question is YES. If you are deeply unhappy with your life and marriage, then yes, be prepared to make massive changes. Your personality is not some hermetically sealed formula, nor is it set in stone. Its a product of all the experiences you have had so far, your mental reactions to them, and the beliefs you have as a result. Your personality, your values, and the image you show to your wife and the world, are all under YOUR control. No-one else's. Your personality is a product of your own willpower. If you really think that people are just "born" happy or strong or successful, you are wrong. Such people are in touch with their inner spirit and desires, and build everything else, including their personality, thoughts and actions, around it. Ask yourself what you current personality has brought you so far?
I will be back a little later.
S&A
Back again.
I've actually just adapted the following plan from one of my earliest posts which you've probably already read.
(1) Your wife currently has little respect and therefore attraction towards you as a man. Over the years you have been far too "nice" - as in weak and placating. That is something you are going to have to remedy as a priority. Find and read no more mr nice guy. You'll realize several things: you need to stop being "nice"; you need to become an "integrated male" i.e. more masculine. Also, if your wife is ultimately unwilling to work with you on a passionate and loving relationship, you may even have to end your marriage. However, there's no reason yet to suppose that she would not be motivated to change her own attitude and behaviours, if she sees that you have have made lasting changes yourself.
(2) When my own marriage was in dire straits, I found it actually very instructive to step back and contemplate how I would go about life if my marriage was already over. I realised that my life would go on. No matter how distraught and depressed I might be. If not for my sake, then for our child's. There would be living arrangements to sort out, property to be sold and bought, contact agreements to make regarding our child, and if this couldn't be agreed amicably, this would all have to be decided by a court. It would all be very stressful and expensive and time-consuming. Very. And then what? Perhaps after the 6 months or a year that this all took, I would at last have some breathing space - time for myself and to plan my future. I would inevitably start thinking about my career - which I'd neglected because I was so depressed about my marriage. I would want to do other things that I'd not been able to do before - sport, pastimes, travel. I would also start thinking about dating again, and of starting another relationship. But this time I'd want to get it right. I'd want to be the very best man I could be, in order to recognise and attract and keep a healthy attractive woman. This whole train of thinking put my marriage in a proper perspective.
(3) With that new sense of reality and perspective I then started working on myself and my future as if I were already divorced. In other words, I devoted myself to a 12-month plan of improving every significant aspect of my life. I suggest that you do the same:
(a) Focus on your career - stop thinking of it as something you are just doing to earn money for your wife and children. Start looking at it as an expression of your true self - something that allows you to come alive and show the world what you're really made of. Work hard, push ahead, and don't coast. If what you're currently doing is not what you want - change jobs. If you're not already, get on top of the family finances - be aware of what's coming in, what's going out, that you're getting the best deals on everything.
(b) Get yourself in top physical shape. Start going to the gym regularly, lose the excess weight, become physically stronger. It will really help your self-esteem and of course your work.
(c) In addition, start spending some time with male friends. Preferably, strong successful men with happy marriages. If you don't have such friends, start making them, either from work or the gym, or the fathers of your children's friends at school. Meet up once a week to play sport or have a drink. Don't spill your guts to them about how awful your marriage is - just learn to relax in their company and have a laugh about other things. You will over time absorb some of their male energy and confidence.
(d) Pick one more thing - an interest, pastime or hobby - to pursue. Something that's close to your heart or that you've dreamed about, that you would definitely want to try if you were no longer with your wife.
(e) Start doing all these things. Not for your wife (or even your children), but for you. Only you. Mentally sever yourself from the expectation that your wife is at some point going to turn around and thank you for any of this. Whatever happens in your life, whether you stay with your wife or not, its your destiny to be the very best version of yourself that you can be. Have a good long hard think about what that best version would look, think, sound and act like. Bringing out that best version - day in, day out, no matter what the outside world throws at you - should always be your life's quest, its spritual content. That's your sole responsibility but also your great freedom. It means doing these things for yourself, with no expectation of any thanks or appreciation or indeed any response at all, from your wife or anyone else for that matter.
(f) Here's where it will get interesting. If you stick to your programme, after some weeks you'll start noticing changes in yourself. You'll feel mentally sharper, stronger, more emotionally stable and much more at ease with yourself. You will start to feel and look and act like the man you were always supposed to be. People will definitely notice. Your wife will notice too. I'm telling you so that you are not surprised when people notice. They will. But do not do these things for that reason. And do not stop doing them if they don't.
(4) Your children. You love them a great deal and they are your responsibility to feed, clothe and bring up as strong and decent young men. Their greatest chance of all that is for you to be mentally and physically (and economically) the best that you can be. Again, you do these things for you, but that helps them as well. Given your own very difficult childhood, I think you'll realise how important this question is? What kind of father do you want them to see? I would suggest one who is strong, heroic, relentlessly optimistic and loving. So make efficient use of your time to ensure you are able to do for yourself the things I've suggested above. By fulfilling yourself you will enjoy the time you spend with them all the more.
(5) Sex. At long last I get to sex. Sex is fun and exciting and exhilarating. Except when it isn't. Sex can be intense and emotional and intimate. Except when it isn't. Sex can really make a man feel he's a man. Except when it doesn't. In other words, sex is like any other activity - it can be good or bad, depending on the situation. Don't get me wrong, I like sex as much as the next man (probably more) but you will never have a truly satisfying sex life unless you can get the whole thing into perspective. Sex is a celebration of your masculinity, not an ingredient. Sex is a desire, not a need. You do not need sex, from your wife or any other woman, in order to be a man. If you were marooned on a desert island with no female company for years, you would be no less of a man. Make that one of your new core beliefs. Believe it and act it.
(6) Finally, your wife. The sex issue can wait a while longer until you have started making the other changes to yourself. But your interactions with her are going to have to significantly change. Start having and expressing your own opinions without fear or favour. Do not do things for her unless (i) you objectively should (ii) you genuinely want to (i.e. not because you want to get in her good books). Start learning to say "No" to the rest of her requests. Start listening to her calmly and attentively, without frantically trying to "fix" whatever problem you think she has. Think of yourself as the rock against which the sea of her emotions needs to smash - you don't crumble!
(7) I appreciate that all the above seems like a helluva lot of hard work. So it is. But you've probably worked hard all your life. And if you completely ignore this advice, you will no doubt continue to work hard for the rest of your life. One way or another, life will always be hard work. The key difference is that you have the choice of working hard on and for yourself. As a former fearful/nice guy myself, and who has been doing all of these things for about 2 years now, I can absolutely assure you that there is nothing more satisfying. That does not however mean I've become a selfish and insensitive macho jerk. It means I have a sense of masculine strength and self-esteem that is completely independent of my wife, my marriage and sex. Because of that, I am able to love her in a far healthier way, I am better able to meet her emotional needs, and the dynamics of my marriage have considerably improved. And I'm still learning.
So that's the "man up" stuff from me. Make a start on it and stick with it.
You will soon get a lot more advice from the other posters on the marriage itself.
Good luck!
S&A
To respond to some of your points, Strong&Alive - and I do appreciate all of your advice and feedback:
"When my own marriage was in dire straits, I found it actually very instructive to step back and contemplate how I would go about life if my marriage was already over."
Honestly, I haven't put much thought into this. My intention is to remain married to my spouse, for life, because I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable. But if I did lose my wife, for whatever reason, I would probably give up on women, entirely. Honestly, I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc.
If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celebate, committed single. I would support my 2 children in whatever way I can. One is age 17 and the other 15, so they are not far off from adulthood. I would probably work my job, which I despise, until they were adults. Then I would probably start from scratch.
(p.s., I positively detest the job I work today. I mean, I really, really hate it. I do it to pick up a paycheck, in order to keep my wife in the extravagant lifestyle that she enjoys. I have given up several career opportunities at my wife's insistence. She wants a steady source of income, so she can spend all the money she wants.)
Some of your other points:
"In addition, start spending some time with male friends."
I already do this, although none of them know about the marital issues I am having.
"Pick one more thing - an interest, pastime or hobby - to pursue."
Already there. In fact, this is the one outlet that I have used to maintain my sanity through this situation. In fact, I have won awards for my volunteer work with my children's school district. (When my wife found out about my award, she commented "I wish you would volunteer more around the house, and do more chores." Obviously, she wasn't impressed. She is only really impressed when I make her more money, or help her do less work.)
"Your children. What kind of father do you want them to see?
My children are teenagers, and like most teenagers, they want absolutely nothing to do with their parents. I can understand and accept that. They want to be out on their own, with their friends, and set up their own identities. They both have turned out to be very good kids, and for that, I am very thankful.
I have tried to do this arrangement, while setting a solid example and role model for them. I tried to show them what I thought a father should be - loving, supporting, selfless, commited and completely faithful. These were the ideals that I tried to exemplify. This is what I didn't get from my father, who was a total degenerate. I tried to be the exact reverse of my father (see my description above.)
I realize now I may have gone too far. My children pretty much regard me as a joke. They show the same lack of respect for me that my wife does. At first, I took this to be normal teenage rebellion. Maybe it is really a symptom of my own lack of stregnth. Perhaps they disrespect me for the same reasons that my wife does. Maybe my personality problems run even deeper, and are having even more consequences than I thought.
Honestly, I haven't put much thought into this. My intention is to remain married to my spouse, for life, because I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable. But if I did lose my wife, for whatever reason, I would probably give up on women, entirely. Honestly, I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc.
If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celebate, committed single. I would support my 2 children in whatever way I can. One is age 17 and the other 15, so they are not far off from adulthood. I would probably work my job, which I despise, until they were adults. Then I would probably start from scratch.
Start "putting thought" into it. Now. A lot.
You are enmeshed in a passionless marriage. Neither you nor it will get better by you repeating the same thing year after year.
"I take my marriage vows as sacrosant and indissoluable." Really? Does your wife? Has she stuck to
her marriage vows? The Bible has a lot to say about the physical passionate side of marriage. No religion that I'm aware of requires a couple to stay married no matter what, no matter how unhappy they are. Get real.
"I have practically had it with women - with the manipulation, exploitation, humiliation, etc." I understand your pain, believe me. But... a woman can only be as manipulative, exploitative and humiliating as her husband permits. You have not set her any effective boundaries.
"If I had to start all over again, I would probably just become a celibate, committed single." I mean this in the kindest possible way - but this just reeks of self-pity. Stop it. Of course you want to be feel alive and in a warm and loving marriage. That's why you're here. (And on a side-note, according to the earliest versions of the gospels, the word is "celebrate" not "celibate" - it was unfortunately mistranslated - hence for centuries now priests and monks have gone without sex for no good reason at all
)
"my job, which I despise" So do something about it.
"Then I would probably start from scratch." And what I suggest to you - very strongly - is that you "start yourself from scratch" without getting divorced. Give the plan 12 months and see what effects it has on the dynamics of your marriage.
I positively detest the job I work today. I mean, I really, really hate it. I do it to pick up a paycheck, in order to keep my wife in the extravagant lifestyle that she enjoys. I have given up several career opportunities at my wife's insistence. She wants a steady source of income, so she can spend all the money she wants.
I repeat, you are a nice guy. Get no more mr nice guy by robert glover. Today.
S&A
Greetings, Mr. P (please, do change your screen name to something positive!);
The others above are giving you excellent advice. The first step towards fixing your Sex-Starved Marriage is to focus your efforts on healing YOURSELF, for YOUR own benefit.
The good news is, that it CAN be done. There are plenty of men here who can attest to that.
The 'bad' news is, that it will take a lot of time and concentrated effort on your part to affect the kinds of changes that will make a positive difference in your life.
But the rewards are well worth that effort.
In addition to this little on-line support group, I would strongly recommend finding an individual counselor that you trust and confide in --> you have plenty of issues from your past, and issues with your current relationships, that need to be delt with. Your attitudes and reactions to women, in particular, are unhealthy to the point of keeping you from ever achieving a happy and fulfilling relationship.
You might also want to look for a "Nice Guy" support group in your local area, which would give you a chance to meet and share experiences with other men who are dealing with, and struggling through, circumstances similar to your own. You most certainly are not alone -- as the rapid replies to your thread have indicated -- it's a common theme on this board.
The most important message to you right now is: Change your marriage by changing YOURSELF in a positive way. NO ONE is advocating that you become a selfish jerk, or a bullying, domineering ass. What is being suggested is that you begin the steps toward giving yourself the respect that you deserve, and expecting that same respect from others --> not in a mean, angry way, but in a calm, assertive fashion. You can continue to be loving, caring, and supporting, but do so from a position of strength, rather than feeling like a 'doormat.'
* A 'doormat' feels used and trodden upon, and resents being TAKEN FROM.
* A man who comes from a position of strength gets a great deal of fulfillment and satifaction out of GIVING to those he loves.
This is the critical difference, and what you need to work towards. I know: easier said than done, but it CAN be done.
Bagheera
Several posters have advised me to get a new screen name. OK, this may a step in the right direction. And if this name is causing you embarrassments, I am sorry.
How do we do this? Is there instructions on how to change this? I looked in the Profile screen, from the My Stuff command, and I couldn't do it. Does an administrator have to do it? How do I contact them?
Thanks.
Hi mr P,
An Administrator will have to do this for you. On the
FAQ page there is a link
Contact Us it's the link to email an admin, just tell them your current screen name and the "new and improved" name that you would like instead. It may take a day or 2.
I have been reading your situation and these guys are giving you some great advice. Before any positive action can take place you have to first start with a positive thought to make it happen. All action starts in the mind that God gave to you to make things happen. You can do this man!
Cinco
I'm bumping this.
MrP - what's happening - are you getting a new name? - have you had a think about our suggestions?
Let us know.
S&A
Sorry, folks. It has been a while since I have been back. I have been travelling extensively for work, and haven't had time to respond to some of the last posts.
I am seeing a marriage counselor in my area. He runs a Christian-based counseling service not far from my home. I am getting good, solid advice from him. He is echoing many of the points of advice that I have seen in this forum.
Yes, I have been far too weak, passive, and inadequate, and I have ceded much of the control of my marriage, family, and life, to my spouse. Yes, this is my fundamental problem, and this has to change, if there is to be any improvement in my marriage or sex life.
In my drive to be the "anti-father" - the exact reverse of my own father - I have gone to far. In my desire not to be him, I have gone too far to the opposite extreme, becoming thoroughly weak, passive, and ineffectual. (And this is common for children from grossly dysfunctional families. My counselor has explained this to me, and it makes perfect sense.)
Growing up, I had no male role models to base my life upon, so I come up with my own template. Predictably, I became a person who is more feminine than masculine, since the only role models around were female. Hence, my wife sees me as weak, unmasculine, and effeminate, which is why she despises me so much, and treats me with such contempt. This is the problem that has to be fixed, before any other issue in my marriage or sex life can be addressed.
My next session with my counselor is next week. I will try to keep everyone advised of my progress. And I am grateful for everyone's support up to this point. Thank you very much.
Hi mr.p.,
Your thread caught my eye, and it sounds like you are off to a good start with the advice you are getting here and in your counseling. And yes... please change your name!!! Thoughts can be very powerful...what we think and say to ourselves can bring about health, or can become toxic.
I know you are going to be learning a lot about becoming a healthy man, but here's the cool thing...your health will result in changes in the marital dynamic that may awaken your W. I have been in her shoes ( losing my sexuality by becoming overcontrolling)...it may have appeared that I was strong and doing well, but I was miserable. I've had the incredible opportunity to become more in touch with my femininity, and I feel so much more integrated and whole. Your work will not only help you...you will also be doing your W a favor!!
Good luck to you.
Good start, but not good progress.
My wife is telling me emphatically that she wants a divorce. She is not willing to attend any marriage counseling sessions, nor read any of the marriage books I have bought her. She just wants out.
I am trying to change myself from the "doormat" described above. I am trying to establish boundaries within my relationship with her, and take control of my life, and my portion of the relationship. I have tried only small steps so far. But they have not gone over well.
Unfortunately, my wife will not accept that. She expects the doormat back. She has screamed at me, ranted and raved, and used every type of obscenity imaginable, as I try to do this. She has used expressions such as "f you" and "stick it up...." You get the point.
Now she has hit me with an ultimatum: either I need to leave in the next 2 years, or she will throw me out. Effectively, she has given me a timeline, until she will divorce me. I have two years left, and after both of our children are out of the house, she is going to toss me aside. She doesn't care what I think, at this point.
What should I do in these circumstances? Should I go back to the weak, passive man that I was before? Is this the only way to save my marriage, under these circumstances? Or should I continue this process, and see my marriage slowly deteriorate to nothing? Those seem like the only 2 options at this point. Any other suggestions?
Myself I think there are a lot of other options. However, one thing I was not clear on.... whats the ultimatum exactly. What do you have to do in those 2 years, or are you out anyway??
If that's the case, then Id say option #3 is take your power back! From the sounds of it you are emotionally abused. I'm sorry if that is harsh, but no one has the right to talk to anyone that way, no matter the circumstance. :S
Ask yourself, is this the life you want? Is this how you want to be treated, and how you want your marriage to continue. Can you settle?? Is this what you want for the rest of your marriage?
Lots of questions you have to ask yourself...
Why the ultimatum? In 2 years, our youngest child will graduate from high school, and presumably move off to to college. At that point, my wife will no longer need my income. So at that point, in her estimation, I am a disposable asset - and she will dispose of me. She is using me to pay for the upkeep of her children, and once that task is done, she is done with me. That is the harsh reality that I am facing.
No, I do not like being treated this way. No, I am not a masochist. Yes, I want to take back my power. Now, how do I do this? I have been trying for several months now, and I have made little or no progress.
"Now she has hit me with an ultimatum: either I need to leave in the next 2 years, or she will throw me out. Effectively, she has given me a timeline, until she will divorce me. I have two years left, and after both of our children are out of the house, she is going to toss me aside. She doesn't care what I think, at this point.
What should I do in these circumstances? Should I go back to the weak, passive man that I was before? Is this the only way to save my marriage, under these circumstances? Or should I continue this process, and see my marriage slowly deteriorate to nothing? Those seem like the only 2 options at this point. Any other suggestions?"
No, you should not go back. You and your self-respect are far more important than your "marriage". You must never trade the first for the second - or you will end up with nothing. What's so great about this marriage anyway - what joy, happiness, fulfilment etc has it truly brought you? As you will have read in nmmng, becoming an integrated man is NOT about trying ideas out for a few months in the hope that your wife will notice and reward you (covert contract). Its about taking back control of yourself, your thoughts, your manhood and your whole life. Now that you are doing this, now that your marriage is being steadily stripped of all your niceguyisms and denial, its becoming quite obvious that your wife (previously put on a throne by you) is in reality a bitch.
"Why the ultimatum? In 2 years, our youngest child will graduate from high school, and presumably move off to to college. At that point, my wife will no longer need my income. So at that point, in her estimation, I am a disposable asset - and she will dispose of me. She is using me to pay for the upkeep of her children, and once that task is done, she is done with me. That is the harsh reality that I am facing.
No, I do not like being treated this way. No, I am not a masochist. Yes, I want to take back my power. Now, how do I do this? I have been trying for several months now, and I have made little or no progress."
Harsh reality ? No, exciting. You are on the threshold of momentous life-change. Harsh reality is what you were before i.e. fearful, desperate and emasculated. You really don't want to go back to all that do you?
Little or no progress? No, you have made tremendous progress. You know it. Your wife cannot handle the fact you are changing, because it puts the onus on her to deal with her own issues (which until now you had been excusing her for). So she is squirming big time and trying to threaten you. Your wife clearly has no interest in any kind of a proper marriage with you, hence she is not worthy of you. She is showing her true colours. Its not pretty, but its better than living in delusion. You can either tolerate this bull for another 2 years (giving your children an appalling example for their future relationships), or you can be strong and start talking to an experienced and tough divorce attorney.
If its any consolation, the marriages of all recovered nice guys either develop into healthy and fulfilling ones, or they end because their wives don't have the courage to work on themselves. It looks like yours is the former - but that's a reflection on her not you.
You have to keep going.
S&A
Good morning, MP;
I'm not nearly as pessimistic about her reactions as S&A seems to be: she's been at the helm of the relationship for a long time, so it's not surprising that her initial response to your taking some of that control back would be anger and rebellion. I would take her reactions right now as temporary and somewhat knee-jerk: I'm not excusing them or saying that you should just roll over and take being cussed out by her, just that this initial 'storm' on her part may blow itself out once she realized that you *really mean it* and that these changes are permanent.
Can you tell us what changes you have made so far? What is it that has her so up in arms? Either way:
KEEP IT UP MP -- YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!
I'll offer you the same advice that I gave to StillHope:
(1) Continue your reading, and continue to look for and meet her needs in the relationship: show your love for her in the language that SHE best understands it -- i.e. don't withdraw and isolate yourself (retreat into the 'man cave').
(2) Continue to listen to and try to understand her complaints and criticisms. Acknowledge them and even repeat them back to her -- without being defensive or argumentative. Just accept her point of view (POV) as such, and make sure she understands that you accept it.
BUT, but, but:
(3) Stand up for yourself (WITHOUT being angry, critical, or defensive) and tell her your point of view: quietly, calmly, confidently. If she starts to raise her voice or become too demeaning, tell her to stop or you will leave the room, and if she continues anyway, disengage from the conversation. DO NOT let her abuse you verbally or draw you into a shouting match or battle-of-criticisms. Simply, listen to her POV, let her know that you've heard and understood her, state your POV (calmly), and let it go. Address her concerns and accept her influence/suggestions when you can, but firmly stand your ground when you can't. Admit and take responsibility for your mistakes, when you make them, but then learn from them and move forward. Be the bigger person and stay 'above the fray' as much as possible, keep your cool and your confidence, and stand strong.
(4) Continue living your own life, for YOURSELF. Every one of us here on these boards has a tendency to make our ->spouse<- the center of our universe and focus so much on them that we lose ourselves, but this is very unhealthy and unattractive to our spouse. Set up a GAL process and stick with it -- start doing things for YOU, for your own benefit and pleasure. The more you do, the better and more confident you will feel, and the more appealing you will be to your wife.
A two-year window isn't really a bad one to deal with -- it gives you both plenty of time to make and adjust to this new life-style you are trying to adopt: one in which you have reclaimed your life for your own benefit and happiness, and one in which you are inviting her to join with you in. It will be HER CHOICE as to whether or not she accepts the new, stronger you, or not. Keep making positive changes in yourself, and put that ball back in her court.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Mr.P.
I agree with Bagheera on this one. Your wife sounds like the girl in the Exorcist as the priest was getting closer to success. The only thing missing is her head turning all the way around...
From what I have read of your situation, I don't know that there is any hope for your marriage or not, but I think you need to proceed with becoming Mr. NotPathetic for another reason. Assuming your marriage ends, do you want to look back and be ashamed of not being the man you could have been? Also, if it does end, if you don't fix these self-esteem habits now, you are going to likely end up connecting with another woman who will treat you crappy and let you be Mr. Pathetic in your next relationship.
Either you save your marriage by changing your ways, or you re-enter the single world a better man. Either option is better than continuing as Mr. Pathetic.
CB
Hi Mr. P.
DOOOOOOOD!!!! I don't post too often but your sitch has drawn me out of the wood work. If YOU don't leave in 2 years SHE will kick YOU out!!?? Hold on. You work a terrible job to keep her in her extravagant lifestyle!? How about telling her, if she doesn't lose the attitude SHE can LEAVE? If you are the provider, you are the MAN. It is YOUR house. How can she kick you out of the extravagant life....THAT YOU PROVIDE? Has it occurred to you that perhaps your wife is nothing more than a bully and if you stood up to her she might crumble like a house of cards?
What do you provide exactly? How about taking the next bunch of cash earmarked for her extravagance and buying a Harley for you...and parking it in the garage where her car usually goes.
How about quitting that crappy job and doing what makes you feel good.
I might sound a bit militant but you are married to a school yard bully. I suspect if you manned up, and really believed it, she would change and quick. You have nothing to lose. You are miserable now and have no self-respect. Grow a pair, and stand your ground and see what happens. At best, she straightens out and you have your self-respect. At worst, she leaves and you have your self-respect. The current course will result in her leaving in 2 years and you have NO self-respect.
I am so pro-marriage but your case is crazy, though, I think possibly solveable. Have you read divorcebusting? There is a story of guy who took it for so long and then finally blew his stack. His wife fell in love with him....
Good luck, please, please keep us posted on your situation.
PS, I am wondering, you were good enough to marry and have two kids with. You WERE good enough at some point, what changed?
Hi Mr. P.
DOOOOOOOD!!!! I don't post too often but your sitch has drawn me out of the wood work. If YOU don't leave in 2 years SHE will kick YOU out!!?? Hold on. You work a terrible job to keep her in her extravagant lifestyle!? How about telling her, if she doesn't lose the attitude SHE can LEAVE? If you are the provider, you are the MAN. It is YOUR house. How can she kick you out of the extravagant life....THAT YOU PROVIDE? Has it occurred to you that perhaps your wife is nothing more than a bully and if you stood up to her she might crumble like a house of cards?
What do you provide exactly? How about taking the next bunch of cash earmarked for her extravagance and buying a Harley for you...and parking it in the garage where her car usually goes.
How about quitting that crappy job and doing what makes you feel good.
I might sound a bit militant but you are married to a school yard bully. I suspect if you manned up, and really believed it, she would change and quick. You have nothing to lose. You are miserable now and have no self-respect. Grow a pair, and stand your ground and see what happens. At best, she straightens out and you have your self-respect. At worst, she leaves and you have your self-respect. The current course will result in her leaving in 2 years and you have NO self-respect.
I am so pro-marriage but your case is crazy, though, I think possibly solveable. Have you read divorcebusting? There is a story of guy who took it for so long and then finally blew his stack. His wife fell in love with him....
Good luck, please, please keep us posted on your situation.
PS, I am wondering, you were good enough to marry and have two kids with. You WERE good enough at some point, what changed?
What changed? The key event was this. My wife, circa 1996, began having extramarital affairs, with another woman. I found indisputable evidence of this, circa the spring of 1997. I never confronted my wife about this, or even mentioned it. I made the calculation, that I did not want to destroy my marriage. So I took the physical evidence, and threw it away.
In retrospect, it was a bad decision. I have forgiven my wife for what happened. But ever since then, her behavior has become increasingly more brazen. She routinely spends nights away from home, with her female paramours. And she takes trips with them, to which I am not invited, of course. She didn't even bother to tell me about the last one; I only found out about it, when I saw the bill for the plane tickets.
When this all began, I didn't want to destroy my marriage, because I still had small children. I didn't want to see them grow up in a single-parent household. And maybe from that perspective, it was the right choice. I have 2 children that are both intelligent and self-sufficient, and both are entering adulthood soon.
However, my relationship with my wife is a train wreck. There is no trust or intimacy, and my wife is resisting efforts to make changes. She already is calculating that she is better off single, so she can spend more time with her lesbian friends.
That is what happened. Sure, other things transpired, but this is at the core of our problems.
You my friend, I think, have been "living in limbo". You should google that phrase. More than ever, I think you need to make a stand. 14 years of the same cheesless tunnels has led you nowhere. You need to try something different and perhaps drastic. It may work, it may not but in 2 years you are out of luck if you do nothing.
I think you should get your affairs in order. No matter what happens, you should get yourself in a position to defend yourself legally and financially so in 2 years, or sooner, she doesn't surprise you with divorce papers and a well thought out case to take WAY more than the 50% she might deserve.
Stand up for yourself. It may save you. Both of you, or at least yourself. Either way, it won't be pretty but your current sitch sounds pretty "unpretty".
You need to set some limits and boundries and take back some of your dignity. You need to start putting your money in your own account ASAP to prevent against things like her using your money to buy tickets to visit lovers. Be careful, she could wind up using YOUR money to hire a laywer to take the rest of YOUR money.
I know this sounds harsh but I am really, really, feeling for you.
Wow, MP, simply wow.
You really and truly have to keep standing up for yourself and protecting yourself. Even if you opt to keep the marrage together "for the sake of the kids" for another two years:
(1) Start protecting yourself financially, as DNO suggests.
(2) Don't take ANY abuse, verbal or otherwise. If she gets verbally abusive, give her a warning, and then walk out. Don't engage in it yourself, simply dis-engage from her.
(3) Keep your own behavior stellar, towards her and the kids, as well as maritally. If you stray now, it WILL be used against you, no matter *what* she's doing.
(4) Collect the evidence of her own overnight trips and infidelity, and don't throu it away this time.
And above all, start living your life for YOURSELF. Get yourself into, or continue to stay in shape. Pick up some new or old hobbies and keep yourself occupied in your off-time. Set new goals and apply yourself to your work. Nurture your relationships with *other men* and develop some new ones if you're missing in that department. Stop focusing on her, and focus on YOU for a change.
And no, you aren't a laughing stock of a man for having your wife give you up for other women. If that was her nature from the beginning, then she hasn't been honest with you. If it's something that developed over time, she's still been the unfaithful one, and she has handled it VERY, VERY poorly. Hold your head up, get up, and dust yourself off....life goes on, so start making a better one for yourself and your kids.
-- B.
What changed? The key event was this. My wife, circa 1996, began having extramarital affairs, with another woman. I found indisputable evidence of this, circa the spring of 1997. I never confronted my wife about this, or even mentioned it. I made the calculation, that I did not want to destroy my marriage. So I took the physical evidence, and threw it away.
In retrospect, it was a bad decision. I have forgiven my wife for what happened. But ever since then, her behavior has become increasingly more brazen. She routinely spends nights away from home, with her female paramours. And she takes trips with them, to which I am not invited, of course. She didn't even bother to tell me about the last one; I only found out about it, when I saw the bill for the plane tickets.
-- OK, I am dropping by again even as I thought you were well out of the woods. Are you even stil reading this thread???
Let's get real for a minute. I see you are stil with the moniker "mrpathetic" and that makes me displeased to say the least.
I have forgiven my wife for what happened.
When this all began, I didn't want to destroy my marriage, because I still had small children. I didn't want to see them grow up in a single-parent household.
-- This refers to her so-called possible lesbian affair you built up in your head, right? Again, excuse me but I am going to say in a quite stentorian voce: "BS!
You did not forgive her. Your lingering resentment is quite clear. STOP being so damne dself righteous. Did you confront her with your discovery? Did you verbalize this so-called "indisputable" evidence?
No. I thought not. You "threwe away" the "evidence." Hence resentment. Hence her feeling an ill wind from you probably.
Mrp,she may have actually felt respect for you had you taken her to task with your so-called indisputable affair evidence.
Why not: "Hey, what's this plane ticket expense? Hmmm? If I'm going to jet off somewhere on our shared dime you cqan be damned sure I have enough respect for you to discuss the matter first."
I was glad to see you seeing a Christian counselor and assumed you were on that path but your words say otherwise.
Listen to me. This is going to sting. You are ... STILL a DOORMAT. WAke the F up!
Two years? Sez who??? Her??? Of course, cuz she can push you around like a littel boy. Stop that! Be the man!
She wants two years? Hm, well baby how about two weeks? "I'm sure I can have plenty of willing females helping me get over you in that time frame."
Do you understand me? Women normally like men who are in control of their own sexual/overall attractiveness. Not some sap who is willing to sit there and take an unfair and irrational beating and some ridiculous two year time frame that she yokes onto you like a good little plow horse.
Look dude. I am not saying you must threaten the woman you love so much. I am saying you need to be the man. She is rebelling and throwing a tantrum b/c you have distanced yourself from any type of leadrship role with your woe-is-me and my issues attitude for so many years. She had led your household longer than her subconciousness felt to be rightt or fair and she has awakened.
And guess what??? Her subconscious is right. It feels cheated she linked herself up with a man who is not leading the way as master of his own kingdowm and domain. Can't blame her. What woman wants a milquetoast for her man?
She has zero respect for you mrp. You need to understand this right now.
And maybe from that perspective, it was the right choice. I have 2 children that are both intelligent and self-sufficient, and both are entering adulthood soon.
However, my relationship with my wife is a train wreck. There is no trust or intimacy, and my wife is resisting efforts to make changes. She already is calculating that she is better off single, so she can spend more time with her lesbian friends.
That is what happened. Sure, other things transpired, but this is at the core of our problems.
-- Look mrp, this pains me to the Nth degree. I hear you. You are so worried about the nuclear family structure remaining intact that you are willing to put up with ANYTHING. Do you see? She may not even be interested in other women but because you have such an insecurity over it she chalks you up as a garden variety insecure man who won't take charge no matter what ridiculous scenario she throws at you.
What you think she thinks is fantasy. You say she is "calculating she is better off single?"
Really? Do you have a pocket "my wife is gay" MRI? Unless she has said this in no uncertain terms I wouldn't recommend you attempt to mind-read my good man.
What is at the "core" of your problems is your apparent inability to stand up for yourself in your own R.
MRP, who the hell were you before she came into your life? Did you not look after yourself and direct your goings-on? Self-directed/driven?
Why the hell are you ceding control of your owhn wants, needs, desires to a woman who doesn't want to be in charge, dammmit?
Sack up. Tell her to stop with the ultimatums because she is hnot the boss of you and your family. Period. Life is preciouss and fleeting. If she can't work with you then she is wasting your time and your children's time.
Stop letting her dictate any terms. You are an equal partner at the very least. Give her a piece of your mind for a change instead of lolligagging around in this passive-aggressive resentment muck in which you find yourself mired.
DRIVE your life pal. Bring her along for the ride. Stop being such a whipping boyy at the expense of keeping your family and M intact at all costs. Criminey!
At the very least you owe it to your children. There's no excuse for one parent to steamroll the other parent when it boils down to generating a child's respect for his/her mom and dad.
Get mad mrpathetic. You have the balls in your family so use them. Lead your family my good man.
-Stigmata-
I have requested for my screen name to be changed on a couple of occasions. I have gone to the FAQ link, and requested this, of the moderator. They have not changed this, so far. Should I have just re-registered with a new name?
Well, here is the update on my siutation. I continue the boundary-setting and self-respect exercises. Well, change has come - but not the one that I had expected.
I tried taking back control of my own master bedroom. I tried sleeping there, for the first time in ten years. (Since 1998, I have slept in a guest bedroom in my own home.) I thought this would be a last step, to get back some semblance of a real relationship with my wife.
I went in my own master bedroom, and slept there, over my wife's strident objections. She views that as exclusively her room, and I am generally not permitted to enter there. My wife is physically repulsed by my presence, and patently refuses to sleep in the same bedroom as me.
BAD MOVE.
This has all but finished my marriage. That night, my wife gave me an ultimatum: 1) leave the master bedroom now, and get divorced in 2 years; or 2) spend the night in the master bedroom, and get divorced now. I chose option 2. I thought I could call her bluff, and she would back down. She didn't. Now I am paying the price for this.
Now she is contacting the divorce attorneys. She has advised me to do the same. I live in a no-fault divorce state, so it appears that I will be forced to accept the ruling of the courts. I am contacting my own attorney, but this is just to protect myself, my parental rights, and my assets.
I really do not want to divorce - I have stated this emphatically in the past - but she doesn't seem to care anymore. Nor is she willing to attend any counseling sessions, read any of the marriage books I have purchased, or do anything to save our marriage. She simply wants out.
It seems like I threw away my marriage, for no good reason, whatsoever. I am now sinking into a deep, deep depression. I am now focusing what energies on trying to survive the battle of endurance, that I know is coming.
I have forgiven my wife for what happened.
When this all began, I didn't want to destroy my marriage, because I still had small children. I didn't want to see them grow up in a single-parent household.
-- This refers to her so-called possible lesbian affair you built up in your head, right? Again, excuse me but I am going to say in a quite stentorian voce: "BS!
You did not forgive her. Your lingering resentment is quite clear. STOP being so damne dself righteous. Did you confront her with your discovery? Did you verbalize this so-called "indisputable" evidence?
No. I thought not. You "threwe away" the "evidence." Hence resentment. Hence her feeling an ill wind from you probably.
Mrp,she may have actually felt respect for you had you taken her to task with your so-called indisputable affair evidence.
-Stigmata-
I did confront her about this evidence, about 3 weeks ago. She did not deny that it was in her posession. She claims that it was given to her, but was never used, and doesn't even recall who gave it to her.
Her story just doesn't hold water. I'm sorry, but if someone gave you some gay paraphenelia, would you remember who it was?
I suspect that this person is someone who is close to our family - very close. I also suspect that my wife is trying to protect that person, who is also married.
Yes, I realize now I should have confronted my wife about this 11 years ago. Bad choice. Bad decision. Now I need to live with the consequences.
What you think she thinks is fantasy. You say she is "calculating she is better off single?"
Really? Do you have a pocket "my wife is gay" MRI? Unless she has said this in no uncertain terms I wouldn't recommend you attempt to mind-read my good man.
-Stigmata-
She has actually told me on several occasions, that she thinks she will be better of single. This is why she has worked 2 full-time jobs over the past 5 years. This way, she can be totally financially independant, and won't need me, anyway.
These are her exact words, Stigmata. I'm not making this up.
You DID NOT, NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT throw away your marriage. You stuck up for yourself and your wife made a decision, or is still bluffing. Don't you dare blame yourself for taking back a little of your manhood. Nothing is done until it is done. Talking to a lawyer does not mean a marriage is over.
No fault doesn't mean you can't defend yourself in court or that you have to accept anything other than the D. Also, even if she files no fault, there is usually like 6 months that have to pass before it becomes final. YMMV per state.
What is going to be better in 2 years than it is now? Another two years of her squashing our testicals sounds fabulous.
DO NOT give back that master bedroom. She keeps threatening. Answer me this, why hasn't she left already? Why didn't she leave earlier? Threats, if she was so serious, why is she still there.
I re-iterate; you have no wife now, only an abusive, cheating, exploitive house partner. Stand up to her, get a lawyer now. Protect yourself. Get a bulldog attorney. The no sex for all these years and the lesbian stuff will help your cause.
She could still be a wife, perhaps, if you become the strong, attractive man you could be, you are, if you just let him out.
BTW, we warned you that standing up for yourself and/or creating boundries would piss her off monumentally. Eventually, she will respect it, if you reclaim your territory firmly and calmly. You need to be like the dog wisperer, calm and assertive.
Now all that said, what have you done for you? You haven't posted in 3 weeks because you have been at the gym this whole time right? You've been busy with the tailor, fine tuning your new cloths, right? You've been out on your new Harley, that is parked in YOUR garage, right.
Brother I feel so badly for you. I want to give you a big hug...and then take you to a hockey game so we can drink a few beers and start a fist fight in the stands (my treat).
Mr. P,
I could not have said it better than Down, he hit it right on the head! Your marriage as it existed was a sham and from what you have said, you know it. You had to do something and you made the right decision. Saying the emperor has no clothes was not the easy decision but it was the right decision.
Hang in there.
CB
Greetings,
If I were you, I'd simply register under a new name, and then come let us know it's the new, improved you.
DNO and CB have it right --> you're standing up for yourself, and starting to insist upon a REAL marriage, rather than being a live-in maid, babysitter, and ATM machine for your wife. SHE'S the one choosing to make where you sleep in the house a marriage-threatening event, not you. If sleeping in the same bed as her is a deal-breaker for her, then you really don't have a marriage at this point anyway.
Pick up a copy of Michele's Divorce Remedy and start applying it's guidelines ASAP. If you really want to try to save your relationship, then you're going to have to get your wife to see you in a **completely** different light. You've got time, and you're on the right track so far.
KEEP AT IT! DON'T STOP STANDING UP FOR YOURSELF!
As I said before, DO NOT put up with any abusive language or behavior on her part --> walk out of the room/house if it starts to occur. Do not return fire, either: keep the moral high ground. Let HER be the one who rants and raves, NOT you. And yes, easier said than done.
-- B.
I agree with what was said above. Your wife was gone a long time ago and it seemed like she was just stringing you along for some twisted satisfaction. She sounds like a typical bully. And the one thing we tell our kids about bullies is to stand up to them.
If she files...so what? She was going to anyway. Take control of your own life and don't let her pull your strings.
I'm back. Sorry, I wanted to have something to report, before I posted again.
I am still seeing a registered psychotherapist/marriage counselor. He is helping me through many of my issues. I am trying to determine why I have put up with this all these years.
He helped me determine the root cause: I have a pathological fear of intimacy, that was created in childhood, through an extremely poor self-image. I have a complete lack of self-respect, that causes me to engage in one exploitive relationship after another.
This is at the core of my problems. Until I resolve this, I will not experience any real improvements, in any facet of my life - especially in my marriage.
So I am not gong to take any actions to endanger my marriage, until my own personal issues are resolved. Quite frankly, I do not have the confidence or self-esteem to attempt anything like this, at this point in time.
===================================================
I had a checkup last year, when I had a testosterone test done. This was on the recommendation of my therapist. I received bad news. My testosterone count is extremely low, and my estrogen count is very high. I likely suffer from some sort of pituitary or testicular deficiency. (This is part of the explanation for my weak sex drive, and lack of self-esteem/self-worth/confidence.) So the causes of my problems are not 100% emotional or psychological - some are physical.
I am receiving hormone replacement therapy, from my doctor. I go back in a couple of weeks, to see if there is any improvement.
Just caught up on your situation man. I encourage you to keep posting here, I will add your thread to my watch list.
Good decision to work on you, and just let the R be for now.
So what's the plan?
The plan?
1) Fix my hormonal deficiencies through HRT. That should take a relatively short amount of time. I already feel my sex drive returning.
2) Fix the screwed-up problems in my head. That could take significantly more time. I just hope that time doesn't run out.....and my wife hits the door, before I can produce any substantive change in myself.
Yeah #2 is more what I was getting at. Perhaps brainstorm some ideas for this? Maybe we can help you come up with some goals/steps?
Mr. P,
I'm sorry for your situation. It is great that you are taking action. Better late than never.
I have hope for you. If the testosterone is helping, it could help more than libido (energy, PMA...)
I can't stress enough: Please exercise. It will help you so much.
Good to focus on YOU now. You'll be a much better man for your family and for yourself.
You're taking charge of your life. That should be a huge boost to your self-esteem. By the way, please stop tagging yourself as having low self-esteem like it's a disease. We all have low self-esteem and demons on one level or another. Tell yourself that you've already overcome it!
You're working on becoming a better man, and that is the most exciting thing you'll ever do in your life. BRAVO!
Please keep posting here, even if you feel lousy. This is your safe place.
Lucky
Hey! Good for you brother! I'm so happy for you to hear you are getting it together. Please keep posting. I want to hear all about how you took care of things, got your balls back and are now king of your castle. I look forward to when Mr. P stands for something completely different than pathetic.
So is your wife still in the house? What happened with her. How is she treating you these days? What is the current situation? How are you treating her? When are we going to that hockey game?
A year has passed, and I have no substantive improvement.
I continue on the HRT. My hormone counts are rising, although I still have very weak sex drive. I almost never generate erections, and arousal is almost non-existant.
My career has really taken a turn for the worse. I now work in a different city from my wife. I live in Florida, and my wife and kids are back in Texas. This gives my little or not opportunity to work on my relationship problems. However, I don't have to face an angry, disillusioned wife every night.
I just had another milestone birthday recently. I realize I am not getting any younger - and my situation is not getting any better. I see little or no opportunity for improvement, in the near term.
The very best I can hope for, is to somehow keep my marriage in one piece. I keep hoping for some sort of a breakthrough - but hope never turns into reality.
Am I really wasting my time at this point? At what point is it simply more practical just to give up?
P,
A year has passed, and I have no substantive improvement.
I continue on the HRT. My hormone counts are rising, although I still have very weak sex drive. I almost never generate erections, and arousal is almost non-existant.
My career has really taken a turn for the worse. I now work in a different city from my wife. I live in Florida, and my wife and kids are back in Texas. This gives my little or not opportunity to work on my relationship problems. However, I don't have to face an angry, disillusioned wife every night.
I just had another milestone birthday recently. I realize I am not getting any younger - and my situation is not getting any better. I see little or no opportunity for improvement, in the near term.
The very best I can hope for, is to somehow keep my marriage in one piece. I keep hoping for some sort of a breakthrough - but hope never turns into reality.
Am I really wasting my time at this point? At what point is it simply more practical just to give up?
Go back and read my earlier posts to you.
Apart from the HRT how are things going with YOU, not the "marriage", but YOU?
Are you exercising, eating healthily, reading mind-broadening books, learning about the world you are privileged to live in?
Are you doing the things in life that you will regret NOT doing when you're on your deathbed? If not start doing them. No-one, man or woman, is going to get you started in those things. It all starts within. What do you want to do.
"The very best I can hope for, is to somehow keep my marriage in one piece."
Why exactly are you so desperate to keep this marriage in one piece? What does it give you that you don't already have, that you couldn't get from another woman. Clinging onto a relationship will literally just drag you and it down.
Be honest, did you stick to the NMMNG breaking free exercises? Or did you stop or backslide.
Be honest, what is it about your wife that you are attracted to? And vice versa?
S&A
My caeer has entered "meltdown" mode. I have gone through 3 jobs in the past year. Things are extremely hard in my profession right now, due to the economy. Quite frankly, right now, I am just trying to keep the bills paid, and my head above water. I had to take a job that is over 1,000 miles away from my home, and quite frankly, I am thankful just to have that.
No, I am not doing the things that I will regret on my deathbed. Quite frankly, my financial situation just doesn't permit that right now. I need to save every dime I can, to keep paying my bills, including my children's tuition. One child started college last year, and another starts next year.
I did most of the NMMNG exercises. But I realized sometime afterwards, that this program was leading me in a place I didn't want to be. Many of the activities in this program conflicting with my Christian beliefs, and I simply could not abide that. This was particularly true of the masturbation exercises, which quite frankly, I found to be extremely disturbing and sinful.
Why do I want to stay with my wife to intently? Out of my obedience to God. I swore an oath to my wife, that I will remain married to her, for life. I swore this on an altar before God. This promise is to God, not just my wife. I can't break a promise to God.
I hope to somehow repair my relationship to my wife, even though she is 1,000 miles away, and somehow stay out of the divorce court. Really, that's all I am focused on doing right now. If we never have sex again, it will be extremely disappointing, but I will find a way to live with it.
Hi MrP,
You have been getting some good advice from the other posters here. OK, what interpretation of obedience to God says you cannot be a man? That in order to stay married you have to have your balls busted? You are not choosing divorce. In your previous posts you say your W has been having lesbian affairs and kicked you out of the master bedroom - who's definition of an M is that? Seriously. So you cannot beat yourself up for failing to keep your promise to God. God never intended anyone to live the life of a meek little mouse.
I did everything I could to stay out of the divorce courts but in the end it was my H that walked. He is an alcoholic and had an extremely low sex drive. There were a lot of problems in the M. I got on these boards about six years ago and tried my utmost to do all the things suggested in DB and SSM. In the end it was his decision not to grow and his decision to walk. That is where your wife is at. You cannot change her but you can change yourself and you have a duty to change yourself.
One thing that helped me enormously was attending al-anon meetings. I would definitely suggest you do the same. You need to because your father was an alcoholic. You will be among people who have lived through the same situations who truly understand where you are coming from. Look up al-anon and find a local meeting. I think this is essential for you.
take care
I will simply say this, Haphazard:
I could never do what your husband did. I could never walk. Sorry, I just can't justify that to myself. I really do believe in the permanence of marriage.
What is my #1 goal right now? To have an obituary, that shows that I was married when I die. Really, that's it. If I never have sex again, I can live with that.
So I will not do anything that will provoke a divorce. I will try to make improvements in myself, and make myself a better husband/father/Christian. Yes, I will look into the Al-Anon meetings.
But I have tried to take back my bedroom, and become more assertive in my marriage. That brought me to the edge of divorce two years ago. Sorry, I tried that, and it simply will not work with my wife. She insists on total, 100% control of our relationship.
Right now, I am really just trying to hang on.
I could never do what your husband did. I could never walk. Sorry, I just can't justify that to myself. I really do believe in the permanence of marriage.
So do I MrP, I was putting myself in your shoes and my H in your W's shoes. What I mean is that you cannot fault yourself if she makes a choice that you wouldn't make. If she makes the decision to split it will be
in spite of you, so don't feel like you could have done something to save the M - you probably couldn't.
Please do go along to Al-anon. I'm sure you will get a lot of support there. And the best thing about it (aside from it being free) is that no-one will try to tell you what to do. They will listen to your story, and they will tell you theirs and you will learn a lot from each other.
A good friend of mine gave me a mantra when I was going through the worst of things with my H and that was just to keep repeating to myself *I don't deserve this*. It made a big difference to my head. I think you should try it. :-)
What is my #1 goal right now? To have an obituary, that shows that I was married when I die. Really, that's it. If I never have sex again, I can live with that.
...But I have tried to take back my bedroom, and become more assertive in my marriage. That brought me to the edge of divorce two years ago. Sorry, I tried that, and it simply will not work with my wife. She insists on total, 100% control of our relationship.
Two comments. First, if you haven't read the book, No More Mr Nice Guy, get it and read it. If you read it a long time ago, re-read it. All of us deserve the opportunity to try to be the best person we can. It sounds like you are trying to be "nice" to your wife in the hope that she will be "nice" to you and when that doesn't work you try to be even "nicer." This book helped me understand something about myself that I use to think was a real strength and realize that it was really a weakness in my character.
My second comment is that 100% total control in a relationship is not a classic marriage. While I am sure that you are exagerating a little, I also sense a bit of edge in the comment, indicating that you know what I am saying. While you may believe in the permanence of marriage (So have I until this past year, when I have contemplated and am still contemplating divorce), it still means that you can push for a true marriage, even if you can't force your partner into any particular action. I think that the key (at least what I am going/trying to pursue) is to find what you need, give unconditional love (but not slavish love), make yourself a better person by getting an interesting fulfilling life, demand to be treated with loving respect and settle for nothing less (as opposed to begging for love).
Good luck to you. I hope you find happiness.