Just curious, how many here have a problem getting their SO to discuss relationship issues? I have had and continue to have a very difficult time getting my W to listen. I am careful not to come across as hostile or demanding, and that I'm just trying to tell her how I feel. I even preface the convo with the statement that I don't expect anything from her, just an open ear.
One thing that may be influencing this is my W uses me like an emotional tampon, she unloads on me daily and I provide the reassurance and guidance on the things she is troubled about. But I don't normally do this to her. If I try, she either gets pissed off or acts like a deer in the headlights and changes the subject.
This is very frustrating, it shuts the whole communication process down before it even gets started. I just don't get it.
stu,
Tough issue. I am really careful about what I even try to talk about in the R talks because it has been my experience that they are only effective at me getting something off my chest. In the end, no matter how much my wife agrees with me and commits to act, things don't change as a result of the talks. The tough thing is that if we don't have them once in a while, I build up too much resentment and it tends to come out in a different way than attended, so I do think there is a value in pressure relief, if nothing else.
To your immediate question, I struggle in how to get the talks started and build up a lot of anxiety knowing that she will be defensive. It helps me to have some responses ready to move us past the first minute and once we get talking, we are usually ok. For example, my wife likes to immediately change the subject to something about me that she "has been meaning to bring up" and frequently that succeeds in putting me on the defensive and sucking me into that discussion. I have had some success in saying, "so XYZ is bugging you? I would be happy to talk about that next, but first let's talk about why I get rejected every time I bring up sex and what that is doing to our relationship..."
PF...who is trying to block the emotional tampon reference out of his mind.
Stu,
Try to relay only 1 item at a time. I have the same difficulty with being a "dump site" of issues without an ability to feedback so I try to validate what she says. When I want to bring something up I try to isolate it to one thing and keep the discussion to a few sentences. More than that and she tunes me out, even if she can talk for an hour or more about her issues.
NH
SO!! I am not alone on this one...Thanks for the comments ,I know exactly what you guys mean. Today's search for meaning led me to articles about intimacy, guess what most of said? They define intimacy as the ability for a person to reveal their needs, issues, and fears to another and receive support and understanding. Without intimacy, the couple will eventually suffer from sexual issues, etc etc. I'm paraphrasing a bit but this is interesting as as a potential root cause.
I'm deeply conflicted here:
1. The prevailing theory is that communication is essential.
2. It could make me feel better, but it's damn near impossible, and probably won't lead to any meaningful changes.
3. After communication is intimacy, which is going to be really difficult to achieve given the difficulty in communication)
4. Mutual intimacy requires both parties to actually care about the needs of the other.
It seems so simple to me for my W to just say "Stu, you say you are not happy, why is that exactly". And then "OK, well may be we could try X? How does that sound?". I do this all the time with her.
But no. No response. Ignoring it is the same as saying "f*ck you".
Stu:
Read The Passion Trap. It goes into great detail on how to have constructive R talks.
And... it offers lots of other good information.
Corri,
I assume you read this, was it helpful?
Stu:
I thought the book was absolutely outstanding. I'm glad I read it. Too bad I didn't read it years ago.
So what were some of the highlights, or things that were a revelation?
Stu Just curious, how many here have a problem getting their SO to discuss relationship issues? I have had and continue to have a very difficult time getting my W to listen. I am careful not to come across as hostile or demanding, and that I'm just trying to tell her how I feel. I even preface the convo with the statement that I don't expect anything from her, just an open ear.
I seem to have the same problem. Your situation is a little different. I never said I didn’t expect anything from my W.
One thing that may be influencing this is my W uses me like an emotional tampon, she unloads on me daily and I provide the reassurance and guidance on the things she is troubled about.
Same here. I call it dunping. Using the word tampon will get you in hot water.
One thing is, some people just like to dump their garbage. Stu, never try to fix any of her garbage unless it is truly your problem to fix.
But I don't normally do this to her.
I try to keep quiet about my problems. Most of my stuff, she wouldn’t have the foggiest notion about what to do.
Stu, all this is normal for some people.
I like the idea that Corri suggested.
Lou
If you're depending on a particular reaction in order to carry on any sort of conversation, you'll probably not have a very good one. The other person is very unlikely to follow your script, whatever it may be... that's the reason that the Turing Test works so well. Computers follow scripts in conversation, people don't.
A conversation is a kind of dance. One moves, the other reacts and plays off of it, then the first one plays off of her reaction and so on. You can't really plan it all out beforehand... you've got to get your right brain firing on all cylinders and verbally dance with her.
The more practice you get, and the less anxiety and distraction you've got clouding your brain, the better you become at it. And if you're bringing a hidden agenda (as in, what should I say now to make her smile/want me/do me/love me), that's not conducive to getting her to let her guard down and dance with you.
And it could be that she's just determined not to work with you, and there's nothing you can do about it. Then what?
Stu - I am in a similar situation. At first I was so angry at my wife for pulling away from that we could not talk without it escalating into an argument. I finally learned (slower learner that I am sometimes) that I was not going to be able to restore our closeness by yelling at her and pointing out all of her flaws. So I just completely backed off and agreed with whatever she said and did. This helped becuase she showed at least some interest in me and the marriage again. The problem with this, however, is that it will drive you nuts because you are really not in the relationship any more and your resentment at being shut out will build. I have recently begun initiating dicussions about our relationship. My wife clearly does not like these but she will participate at some level so long as I remain calm, stick to discussing my feelings and acknowlege her feelings when she decides to share them. My challenge is that I want to do this often and with intensity because, like most men, I like to fix things and it drives me crazy to just stand by and wait for things to fix themselves. But you have to be patient and pace yourself. I try to have no more than one relationship conversation a week and always try to refrain from the expression of anger, from judgment and from seeking to control. It's not easy but I think it is the only way as far as I have been able to discover this far.
esquire:
Do NOT try to fix things. Women don't want fix it advice, they want to be known, they want to have you listen, but DON'T offer advice.
Stop the relationship talks, makes you sound desparate. If you were just starting to date her, what would you do? WOuld you get into deep relationship talks, or would you try to earn her desire by being attractive?
cemar2
After two years of silent treatment, including her sitting in marrige counseling sessions (a) saying that she finds it very difficult to be there and (b) not responding (as in total silence) in response to most questions from the therapist including (1) W, are you finished with this relationship or would you like to work on it? and (2) W, what do you want, if anything, out of this relationship at this point? So if my W wants to be known and wants to have me listen, this seems like a pretty strange way for her to go about getting that.
Stu, Esquire,
Are you familiar with the concept of avoider/pursuer? If not, you need to understand how that dynamic works and why. It is a FOO issue and it comes from some form of childhood abandonment/abuse. By that I do not necessarily mean your spouse was literally abandoned or beat, but that she did not get her needs met in the way that she needed at that time. It might be that she got more attention than any of her siblings, but if something was missing that left and emptiness in her, then she would have started to create defenses to protect against that.
You two are both the pursuer, like I. My wife is the avoider. She was overwhelmed and engulfed with abandonment issues as a child and the only way she could relieve the stress was to pull away. It is a fear reaction. I am the pursuer because I had to walk on eggshells with my parent’s fighting. I fear losing a relationship so I pursue. We make for the perfect match, as far as our issues are concerned. Both of us have come a long way in recognizing and breaking this cycle. I no longer pursue as I did, though I still get angry at times. She has learned to not avoid and to talk about things, even though she may need a cooling off period first, and even if she does not feel like talking.
So you can see that you both probably have abandonment issues that cause you both to pursue, and that feels like engulfment to your wife, so she pulls further back, you pursue harder, and the cycle gets more intense. You contribute 50% to this dynamic.
What your wife really wants, like mine does, is to be held and comforted. But if like my wife, she did not have that modeled for her and does not know how to accept such intimacy. It is too scary. She is stuck in limbo, and while not happy, she is at least safe. Your counselor is asking the right question as to whether she is through with the relationship. That will cause her to have to face what it is that she wants, rather than what she does not want. But beware that if her fears issues are intense enough, it will seem safer to her to end the marriage rather than face her fears.
The key IMO is to give her loads of empathy and focus directly on her core fears (which means you need to identify what those fears are). She will avoid, deny, deflect, get angry, do anything and everything she can to avoid the topic and turn the focus and the blame back on you. So to disarm this, you deal with your issues openly, in depth, and in front of her. By you going first, she will see your vulnerability, develop some compassion for your fears, and take away any excuses not to work on herself.
This book by Steven Stosny, “You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore” uses this compassion approach as its core theory. It think he has the right isea on how to deal with marriages. For more severe cases and to further increase your understanding, read “Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors: Strengthening Attachment Bonds” by Susan M. Johnson.
“Facing Love Addiction : Giving Yourself the Power to Change the Way You Love” by
Pia Mellody and Andrea Wells Miller as well as “Addiction to Love: Overcoming Obsession and Dependency in Relationships” by Susan Peabody will help you see the catch 22 cycle you are stuck in. I think these later two books are good for your wife to read as well.
To finally slay the demons, you will need to face some of your FOO issues, and “The Narcissistic Family : Diagnosis and Treatment” by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman, Robert M. Pressman do a good just of explaining where all this comes from, why it is so destructive and what different type of abuse and abandonment actually look like. They are not necessarily what you think.
Quoting Cobra:
"So you can see that you both probably have abandonment issues that cause you both to pursue, and that feels like engulfment to your wife, so she pulls further back, you pursue harder, and the cycle gets more intense. You contribute 50% to this dynamic.
What your wife really wants, like mine does, is to be held and comforted. But if like my wife, she did not have that modeled for her and does not know how to accept such intimacy. It is too scary. She is stuck in limbo, and while not happy, she is at least safe. Your counselor is asking the right question as to whether she is through with the relationship. That will cause her to have to face what it is that she wants, rather than what she does not want. But beware that if her fears issues are intense enough, it will seem safer to her to end the marriage rather than face her fears.
The key IMO is to give her loads of empathy and focus directly on her core fears (which means you need to identify what those fears are). She will avoid, deny, deflect, get angry, do anything and everything she can to avoid the topic and turn the focus and the blame back on you. So to disarm this, you deal with your issues openly, in depth, and in front of her. By you going first, she will see your vulnerability, develop some compassion for your fears, and take away any excuses not to work on herself."
Nope. Dude, if trying to reestablish a sex life is unhealthy pursuit, then all of us need to be at the courthouse with the attorney. I do so much holding and conforting it's unreal, that's not it. Finally, been married once and the sex life was great, it's not me. My ex and my wife have very different personalities with regards to intimacy, this is probably the root cause. I use sex to relieve stress, to bond, and to relax. Wife uses sex to relieve the pesky bimonthly pelvic congestion. I am not being facetious here, it is really this way. Has been for 15 years, although the congestion occurred more often so it was not a big issue.
I am new at this so any of my opinions are just that, my opinions.
I tend to withdraw from my W in R discussions because they frequently become dumps on me. I will listen for a while to try to hear what nugget of truth might be in the dumps, but eventually I need to walk away from the conversation because the yelling, judging, or criticism is destructive to me. It is actually a technique that has been taught to me by my counselor, a couple of marriage counselors, and my 12 step group.
I am not saying that your discussions with your W match how my W approaches me. But I know that I have now been 'hypersensitized' to verbal/emotional abuse. As a result, my current level of tolerance is very low. I am a recovering codependent and the following is a real good synopsis (from Steve Frisch) of how a codependent responds over time.
1 - Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
2 - Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
3 - Let others hurt them.
4 - Keep letting others hurt them.
5 - Wonder why they hurt so badly.
6 - Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
7 - Finally get angry.
8 - Become totally intolerant
For me, I hit stage 8 and am now in a recovery program. I am trying to learn what is healthy to tolerate and what is unhealthy. I don't know how this might apply to your R. But it is why I tend to avoid R discussions with my W unless there is a third party. Since we are no longer in counselling, I need to learn how to properly set boundaries and not walls. It is a difficult job.
send me an email. My email address is in my profile
Would that be me the thread starter, or the last poster?
I meant the last poster but you can email me too if you want.
I don't see it, I think the admin Hoovered the contact info.
Dear DB'er,
Posting any email address, including your own, is a violation of a policy clearly stated in our board rules, the rules that you are required to honor if you want to continue the privilege of posting here.
We appreciate your cooperation.
But why has it been removed from our PROFILES? I understand you don't want it POSTED, but we've always been able to put it in our profiles, and the board rules allowed it as well. Why has that changed?
There is another site called From the Inside Out that is interesting... it lists a number of books that have been discussed here... has a public BB, article references...
This site, of course. Seems to me if one looks hard enough, there is a place that can best fit everyone's particular needs.
Stu,
Try this site out - might help give you some other good pointers
from the inside out
Stu...why don't you describe how a typical conversation goes...as if we were in the room with you.
I am realitively new to these discussions, but here is my thoughts. Take them or leave them.
I actually set up a new email account to access this board to avoid the 'traceability'. It's pretty easy to do with yahoo and all the other service providers out there.
One of the biggest issues in codependency (and I admit to being codependent) is that it causes people to continually reduce their social circles and outlets. Boards like this help us explore moving out of that isolation. That is also part of DBing if I understand it correctly.
When I signed on up on this board, I didn't include my email because I was waiting to see what type of people were here. (I am an adult and responsible for my own behaviors.) Even that recently, it was an option in the personal profiles, so the argument that it has always been a policy is in fact the exact opposite of the truth, therefore a lie. It may have been a policy for actual discussions, but not the personal profile.
If someone came to a CoDA group and behaved and talked like this, the first thing most of us would think was - how controlling and codependent. The excuses given seem to really be rationalizations as a reason to control others. If there are business reasons, be honest. That is what relationship and taking responsibility for personal actions is all about. You people pay to run this board, so make the decisions. Just please think about the impact that you are having by your communications style. And also think about the example it sets. If we take the example, it will mean that half truth is acceptable in DBing. Is that the example that you want to be giving?
I understand limiting the content of replies of abusive people. But building social circles is a necessity of recovery and also of becoming healthy people, which is (as I understand it) a DB principle.
My 12 step group has a phone list with a policy, put your name on it only if you are willing to take calls. It is how recovery and programs work. Do people abuse it, sometimes. Does that mean that we should stop it, NO. It is essential to the process. One of our group who is also a recovering addict was on travel last week and it was these contact lists that help keep him from falling of the wagon.
If these boards are really for support in recovering relationships, the Google argument is actually a perfect one for allowing, not removing, private contacts. There is a limit to what I will post on a public discussion about my situation for exactly that reason. A private contact would allow me to explain better to those who might really help.
toubled husband
Troubled,
I guess I never thought to look at it from that angle, but I think you're absolutely right. I was merely ANNOYED by the arbitrary new rules, but some people might really be DISTRAUGHT over them.
Sad.
Puppy