More reading - which one are you?

[MrsNOP]

I'm reading "The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner. It's geared toward women, but the subject is a "guide to changing the patterns of intimate relationships."

One of the sections I have found particularly interesting encourages you to observe your characteristic style of managing anger. However, reading it, I don't think the observations are limited to styles of dealing with anger, but I think they run into being styles of dealing with life in general. Here's 3 of the categories listed:

Pursuers

* react to anxiety by seeking greater togetherness in a relationship.
* place a high value on talking things out and expressing feelings, and believe others should do the same.
* feel rejected and take it personally when someone close to them wants more time and space alone or away from the relationship.
* tend to pursue harder and then coldly withdraw when an important person seeks distance.
* may negatively label themselves as "too dependent" or "too demanding" in a relationship.
* tend to criticize their partner as someone who can't handle feelings or tolerate closeness.

Distancers

* seek emotional distance or physical space when stress is high.
* consider themselves to be self-reliant and private persons - more "do it yourselfers" than help-seekers.
* have difficulty showing their needy, vulnerable, and dependent sides.
* recieve such labels as "emotionally unavailable, withholding, unable to deal with feelings" from significant others.
* manage anxiety in personal relationships by intensifying work-related projects.
* may cut off a relationship entirely when things get intense, rather than hanging in and working it out.
* open up most freely when they are not pushed or pursued.

Blamers

* respond to anxiety with emotional intensity and fighting.
* have a short fuse.
* expend high levels of energy trying to change someone who does not want to change.
* engage in repetitive cycles of fighting that relieve tension but perpetuate the old pattern.
* hold another person responsible for one's own feelings and actions.
* see others as the sole obstacle to making changes.

I can easiliy see which one I identify with the most.

MrsNOP -

[Underdog]

Mrs. NOP,

I know which one I am too... and this is a terrific book. I'm glad to see someone else discussing the merits of this little gem.

Are you planning on posting more of your findings here? I'm voting for a yes!

Betsey, the pursuer but sometimes a distancer too

[mqo]

Pursuer no doubt. and W is a Distancer. No surprise there.

The more interesting question is. I would guess most HD people are pursuers, and a fair amount are blamers. And how many (HD) pursuers turn into blamers? LD people I would mostly categorize as Distancers, and some might be or turn into blamers, but I think they are predominantly distancers.

Generalizations. *shrug*

How many Hd distancers would there be? How many LD pursuers?

[MrsNOP]

I don't think it breaks out that easily in general.

MsHD & MsOgLOU strike me as blamers.
Mr. Corri and NOP strike me as distancers.
I am a pursuer and I perceive that NG is as well.

Apologies in advance for any possible offense made by my armchair therapy. No offense was meant and I will glady take it all back.

I think we see a higher preponderance of pursuers here because the board is self-selected toward people who have a problem and are desperately looking for a solution. I don't think HD/LD outside of this board would break out into pursuer/distancer as easily. HD folks who would be distancers aren't as apt to be looking for a solution online.

MrsNOP -

[Greeneyedlass]

I think I may be a blamer (although I don't like that title LOL)....MrGEL is a Distancer.

To be honest though....there are things out of each that I do, but settled on blamer as there is more than 1 thing in that category that fits me.

GEL

[desdamona]

This book is on my reading list.

I am mostly pursuer and some blaming
Husband is totally distancer and totally blaming.

Therapist recommended an older book and I love the title
"The Dance Away Lover" (Goldstein or stine)

desdamona

[sat567]

I am a pursuer, and to some extent, a blamer. Ms Hdog is both a distancer and a blamer.

We already own this book. Maybe I'll bring it with me this weekend. Although, I also have John Irving's new book and really want to get into that.

Hairdog

[CeMar]

MrsNOP:

I see myself mostly as the blamer(surprise, surprise). But I also see a lot of the other styles in myself as well.

[karen1]

Mrs. Nop,

I am definaetly the pursuer and H is the distancer. Neither of us are blamers. The dynamic this sets up is a mess sometimes.

Karen

[MrsNOP]

I agree that there is overlap, Cemar.

I started as the "relationship" pursuer in our marriage. As my resentment and hurt grew at feeling that I was unimportant in our relationship I moved into what the list calls the " tend to pursue harder and then coldly withdraw when an important person seeks distance."

That withdrawal took place over a few years and I fought it with limited success on occasion. I stopped pushing for what I wanted from our marriage. My openness toward NOP dried up. And with that, any thought of giving much of a rip about what he might be wanting or needing disappeared as well. NOP felt the withdrawal and eventually tried to put things back to right again. And for a time became the relationship pursuer. But the distance was too far for gifts to traverse.

Of course, we were both doing our "blaming" at each other, whether or not it ever got expressed verbally.

I think it's based on what your first initial reaction to anger, or those disfunctional circular patterns into which relationships can so often deteriorate.

Blamers are the ones who respond to most overtures by coming out with guns blazing. You don't strike me as a guns-blazing sort of guy. When you and your wife have an argument, do you chase her trying to make it right and talk about it, do you respond quickly with the list of things she's failing in, or do you want to get away as fast as you can?

MrsNOP -

[Webermiester]

Um....I answered "That's me!" the most to the Distancer statements and yes to just a few of the Pursuer statements. And I'm definitely the HD person in the R. Still have to figure out where she would be in this.

Maybe I'll have to read the book to really understand.

WM.

[Bube]

WM,

Me too. Heavy on the Distancer with a bit of Pursuer thrown in. They seem diametrically opposed, but who said I made sense?

Anyway, W is without a doubt, a Blamer.

ZB

[cinemanymph]

I tend to have persuing emotions, distancing actions tweaked with a bit of blaming.

[grislen]

Holy COW im a Blamer and I don't like that. I don't think im a blamer to the extent of Mrs. HD but dang it I still don't like it.

Lee

[CeMar]

MrsNOP:

Guns a blazing, that is definitely NOT me. If anything I need a little more of that kind of stuff. I am a conflict avoider. We hardly ever aurgue. That is part of the problem, we need to get tings in the open more. I am a pursuer though, I thikn a lot of us HD's are. In our relationship, at least physically, it is all from me to her, she does not persue me at all in a physical sense.

[Underdog]

Cemar,

This book is not about the type of pursuit you are imagining. It's about how we work out conflict.

If you tend to be a conflict avoider, I'm going to venture a guess and say you might be a distancer. You really NEED to read it to understand the concepts and how they apply.

In my earlier days, I was a distancer. I grew up in a really verbal and emotional family. Sometimes we were combative. I learned that I got hurt by engaging that way, so I chose to distance myself rather than pursue it.

It has NOTHING to do with sexual needs or desires. And I agree with MrsNop that it's not wise to label HD's as pursuers--from the context of this book.

Mr. W. and I were evenly matched sexually, but we had very different styles of managing conflict. That's what this book is about.

Betsey

[honeypot]

I am a PurBlamer and he is DistaPurser.



Seriously, we began this R as a blamer (picture me as a female Yosemite Sam with my hands on my guns), and him a distancer. While we still have many of those characteristics, we both now jointly move in and out of the Pursuer stuff, too.

[karen1]

BTW - the book (the Dance of Anger) itself is a great one. There is much to be learned from how we handle anger and conflict. In my R - our habitual methods of handling conflict happen to match our physical styles but that isn't always the case.

For those of us that are emotional pursuers and are married to distancers it is easy to understand how we get at such odds. For my H, the more I pursue him emotionally, the less he is able to emote. I KNOW that but yet the pursuer in me has trouble letting things lie for long.

I think it might be time to grow up though. Yesterday I had my latest R book open on the kitchen counter and H stopped by and had a look at the page which happened to be about controlling sexual impulses. The look on his face was "Oh no. What have I done this time" or "Oh no. She's not happy again." I felt embarrassed that once again I wasn't "happy" or "satisfied". I'm thinkin that it is probably time to do less reading and more talking or even more journaling (haven't written in that thing for a LONG time). H actually appears to be in a receptive mode lately and I will waste that if he feels as if I'm just complaining because I read something in some book somewhere.

I've also come to conclusion that H doesn't see himself as lacking in desire. He sees himself as overwhelmed which "can't be helped." I don't care about the label but it does affect how he views my reading that kind of literature - stuff about "rekindling desire" and so forth. He thinks that we both feel passionately for each other so therefore there is nothing to rekindle. The difference is that he has the luxury of "knowing" that I feel that for him whereas I don't "know" that he feels that for me.

This has been both on and off topic. Anyone who has any thoughts can share them here or on my other thread.

Karen

[mqo]

Karen: "time to grow up"

Well, I wouldn't say 'gro up', but I am now determined on making a change. Being a pursuer got me nowhere. I am conciously seeking the path of the distancer. Freely taken from the list, this means:

* I will seek emotional distance and physical space
* I'm going to do what I want, and deal with my own emotions (or not) my way.
* I will not show my needs, emotions.
* I will not be emotionally available.

Driven by resent perhaps, but I think it's the only language she understands. Communication didn't get me anywhere, witholding physical attention and affection worked for a short moment, so pulling out emotionally on all levels is the only tool left at my disposal. Yes, I am at breaking point.

[Bube]

I've also come to conclusion that H doesn't see himself as lacking in desire. He sees himself as overwhelmed which "can't be helped."

That describes W as well. But what they don't seem to understand, is that while their point may be valid, it just doesn't hold up after years upon years of being overwhelmed. I could buy it for a couple of days, for a week, maybe even a month. But when it stretches into years, I have to belive that there's something else going on.

ZB

[Greeneyedlass]

ZB,

In our C session yesterday....my H started out (when our C asked how we were) talking about everything under the sun going on, the house, the acreage, work...everything but us....and said "we've been busy". I interjected, "we're always busy H, that's our life....we're never not going to be busy, we have to learn to work around that for us."

It goes along with your wife feeling overwhelemed I think. My H gets so preoccupied with everything else that he forgets to even take the time to think about us....it just doesn't occur to him. Our C told him yesterday he's going to have to learn to turn off the other things for awhile....mentally set them on a shelf and concentrate on us from time-to-time. Perhaps that's what your W needs to learn to do...of course she has to be willing to do it.

GEL

[MrsNOP]

Um....I answered "That's me!" the most to the Distancer statements and yes to just a few of the Pursuer statements. And I'm definitely the HD person in the R. Still have to figure out where she would be in this.

It helps to put it in the context of how you deal with anger, not in the context of sexual desire.

I think many of us have a big problem dealing with our anger. Some push it down because of religious beliefs. Some see anger as a bad thing and strive to be nice. Some squelch it enough that it comes back out as depression, which seems to be a more acceptable expression than anger. Some eventually tire of being on the precipice of anger that their emotions withdraw into a nothingness as a form of relief.

Lerner proposes the idea that anger is a signal that something is wrong and that it should be an indicator for examination.

Here's the first paragraph:

"Anger is a signal, and one worth listening to. Our anger may be a message that we are being hurt, that our rights are being violated, that our needs or wants are not being adequately met, or simply that something is not right. Our anger may tell us that we are not addressing an important emotional issue in our lives, or that too much of our self - our beliefs, values, desires, or ambitions - is being compromised in a relationship. Our anger may be a signal that we are doing more and giving more than we can comfortably do or give. Or our anger may warn us that others are doing to much for us, at the expense of our own competence and growth. Just as physical pain tells us to take our hand off the hot stove, the pain of our anger preserves the very integrity of our self. Our anger can motivate us to say "no" to the ways in which we are defined by others and "yes" to the dictates of our inner self."

skipping forward a bit:

"Anger Gone Wrong

If our old familiar ways of managing anger are not working for us, chances are that we fall into one or both of the following categories. In the "nice lady" (my ed. comment - it is geared toward women but the info is really not gender restricted) category, we attempt to avoid anger and conflict at all costs. In the "bitch" category, we get angry with ease, but we participate in ineffective fighting, complaining, and blaming that leads to no constructive resolution.

These two styles of managing anger may appear to be as different as night and day. In reality, they both serve equally well to protect others, to blur our clarity of self, and to ensure that change does not occur.."

++++++++++

In one of the examples, a 50-year old woman whose youngest child had just headed off to college, is seeking anger management help because of the demands of her 70 something year old widowed partially-disabled dad. She has to drive him to various things a couple of times a week, does chores at his apartment every week (which he critiques) and he calls her several times a day.

The question was "what is your problem as you see it?"

The answer was -
My father doesn't think I have my own life.
My father thinks my world should revolve around him.
My father uses me.
My father asks too much.
My father makes me feel guilty.
My father needs to get out and meet people.

Therapist's Question: "Who has the problem?"

Patient's Answer: "My father."

Everything Katie says reiterates that her father has the problem. Lerner points out that Katie's father is able to identify his wishes, state them clearly, and even get what he wants. (I couldn't help but laugh at this, because dad's successfully getting his way, so how's it his problem.)

Katie has the problem, and the chapter goes on to explain how Katie started dragging herself out of the rut.

The purpose of the book is to assist you in breaking out of the circular dance that we all get into in our relationships. The arguments/convos that you have over and over where the same things are said by both parties and nothing ever changes.

Just some food for thought.

MrsNOP -

[MrsNOP]

I've also come to conclusion that H doesn't see himself as lacking in desire. He sees himself as overwhelmed which "can't be helped." I don't care about the label but it does affect how he views my reading that kind of literature - stuff about "rekindling desire" and so forth. He thinks that we both feel passionately for each other so therefore there is nothing to rekindle. The difference is that he has the luxury of "knowing" that I feel that for him whereas I don't "know" that he feels that for me.

Karen, how does he know what you feel for him?

I ask because NOP is quite a passionate man, but this did not equate to me really knowing how he felt about me.

To me, his passion was something that came *from* him, not necessarily something that came as a *result* of me.

Make sense?

MrsNOP -

[honeypot]

To me, his passion was something that came *from* him, not necessarily something that came as a *result* of me.

My husband feels this way too, but I have been unsuccessful in convincing him otherwise. Any thoughts as to how one goes about that?

Thx,
HP

[cinemanymph]

HP,

Being receptive to another persons feelings is a toughy for some people. Some people have faulty emotion receptors.

[cinemanymph]

His answer is that he's a dork, a loser, stupid, slow, awkward, reserved, inadequate, unsexy, is not handsome/rich/smart enough to be my husband, etc.

No wonder your H is having problems with being a virile man. Can you imagine (insert very manly man's name here) ever thinking these things about himself? With all of those negative lables swirling around in his head, it's a wonder that he even gets out of bed in the morning! Even if they are not true for you, most likely your H still believes them. How then does he tell himself that those lables don't apply? How does he turn them around to say, "I am capable, I am a sexy beast, I deserve this passionate woman, I can figure it out, I am irresistable in pocket protectors and horn rims, etcetera?

[GonnaGoBlind]

HP,
is this self flaggelation really how he feels about himself, or is it said in a failed attempt to look humble? Perhaps it started out as deflecting praise and has grown into a monster. When he does that, can you cite specific counter examples and then challenge him to support his assertions?