Moving on to new R's.... can we talk?

Hi SC
I haven't read the book, so I can't comment on it specifically. But what I can say is that I agree that there are a mine field of issues that can take a toll on the relationship if you are not careful.

Let's not forget that he is not the only one with the baggage. As divorced women, we have our own fair share of baggage and problems. There are the insecurities, the trust issues, just to name a few. We too have the guilt, the ex's, children (in some cases) and a past. This is why I think it is so important to take care of our own stuff and be vigilant for when our own ghosts pop up. No matter how "enlightened" we think we are, the ghosts are still there and pop up at the darnest times! If we don't know to watch for them, we'll interpret things the wrong way and make mountains out of molehills. I cannot tell you how often I have reacted and then caught myself once I realized where my feelings were actually coming from. Fortunately, I have an understanding guy, who sees when it's just baggage and doesn't take it personally. It is just an opportunity to lighten the load and get rid of more stuff.

Quote:

I'm not sure I agree with her on taking such strong control/charge of some things-- she has the tone of a woman out on a mission to land and manage a husband.

I agree with you on the control issue. I think for a relationship to be mutually fulfilling, each one has to be free in a relationship to be themselves and not be controlled by the other. We have clear expectations for one and another for what we need from each other. From my limited experience, what works actually is letting go and letting him handle his own stuff and me handle mine. (This is easier said than done, believe me!) We do consult each other and talk about it, but have the freedom to do what each one feels the most comfortable that will work. Afterall, when it comes to the ex and the kids, each one knows their ex and their kids best. Divorce does reak havoc on the financials and it has been in our best interest for each to worry about their own. We have some common goals, but need to have the freedom to do what we need to do there too. There are past obligations that cannot be ignored. This too is part of the baggage. For example, I have no intention of giving up my alimony anytime soon, until certain goals I have set have been met. We came into this with our own messes to clean up and it is unfair to put them off on the new person.

Control has the downside of added stress and responsibility. Who wants that? I have enough of my sh!t to worry about to take on responsibility for someone elses. I will be supportive, but the buck doesn't stop with me when it comes to his stuff. I don't know about you, but I don't want a wimp or a guy that has been p.whipped. Know what I mean? I want an equal partner, someone that is together enough to handle his own stuff, and for us to be able to count on each other. I don't want to be his mother or his keeper, and I want to be able to keep my independence too. I do believe that you can be there for each other without losing your self and becoming dependent.

When it comes to our kids, at least in my case, our kids are teens and adults. They've been raised by different set of values and rules. It would be crazy to impose my will and my rules on his kids. Having said that, both his kids and mine know that there are certain minimal expectations in our home that were derived from the blending of our beliefs, that everyone is expected to abide and they have always respected that. Why? Because we've picked the battles to what is really important and let go of the rest.

I do agree that men and women are different. I agree with the fog part and that this whole divorce experience blindsides them and breaks men a bit differently. We all have the scars and sometimes healing them takes different form for them than it does for us.

There's another great book I found. It doesn't relate to divorced people, but to couples in general. It's called "The 8 Essential Traits of Couples who Thrive" by Susan Page. I found it very helpful in building my current relationship. Some of the stuff in it like sections on goodwill and boundaries have even helped me to improve my relationship with my ex because I have been able to let go of resentments and stuff that kept interfering with the task at hand.

There's also a book that Clark gave me to read early on in our relationship about dating and relationships written by a few guys from a male perspective. If I recall, it was a little self-serving for guys but none the less it covered everything from phone calls to sex and it was pretty enlightening to read a candid viewpoint written by guys. They are wired differently, what can I say. LOL I can't remember the name off hand, but I'll try to find it and post it here.

MC

Hi SC!!! WOW - you just wrote what I was going to write. About the list. My C asked me to do it more than 2 years ago. At the time I wrote it with H in mind and me very much wanting to work things out with him. I have only pulled it out about once every 6 months and compared it to a couple of guys I know. INTERESTING....

Well, new guy, Josh, rates quite high, though there are things I enjoy that he doesn't and things he prefers that I don't. None of them are biggies. For example - I love to JetSki. Although he DID go for a ride on mine - I can't say he loved it. I like pop and rock music - he prefers classical, but the more we listen to his classical (during dinners at his house) the more I am appreciating it. So it goes...

I never knew much about chemistry before, but I can say with certainty - I felt it when I met Josh. This is good. Yes, we kissed on our first date - it felt right - actually we kissed 1/2 dozen times. All the things that I had worried about before or with previous dates vanished when I met him. It just feels right. For right now. You are so right about not wanting to look too far into the future. We have basic differences in lifestyle. The most important 2 are: I have children and he doesn't. He lives in Toronto and I live 75 min away. Neither seems a big deterent to us.

I read the following this week...

"Stop looking for Mr Perfect. If he is 80% what you are looking for - then that is great. It probably doesn't get much better. You can work on or work out the other 20%" I think this makes a lot of sense. I also agree with not looking too far ahead. We plan about a week ahead right now in consideration of our distance thing and the fact I need a sitter for my disabled son. He always makes plans and gives me lots of notice - I really appreciate this consideration.

High on my list has been honesty. I am finding I have trust issues. Josh is SO honest. He also tells me about the things he does after work every day without me asking and he doesn't phone me EVERY day. We don't need daily contact. Although he doesn't have children, he does place a high value on family and calls his parents and sisters often. I think that says a lot about him as a person.

Anyway, its hard not to look to the future too much, but I am trying to live in the moment. I really enjoy my "Mr. Right Now". Works for me!!!

Barb

Second,

I'm gonna keep following this thread because hopefully soon I'll be "out there" again. Scary, too.

JoJo

JoJo, since I'm here first, maybe you can learn from my mistakes and mis-steps.... I'll save ya a spot, and be waiting for you!

Maybe one night we can just go out and survey men to see who can live up to the 25-50 times a month requirement? Research, for the other thread? LOL

"...survey men to see who can live up to the 25-50 times per month requirement"
_____________________________

ROFLMAO!! (and standing up intermittently to bang my head on the computer)

Aw Barney, I just feel the need to know what percentage can live up to my wants and desires. I'm hoping it's not a scant 2-3% of the population, as I am so picky on so many other things that it would be like finding a needle in a haystack!

I'm thinking if JoJo and I surveyed say, 100 men, that would be a good enough sample. And I'm HOPING that at least half of them give affirmative responses. That would mean maybe you could count on half of the half... or 1 of 4?

I guess we could have follow up Q's for the "maybe's"....

SC wrote:
I'm hoping it's not a scant 2-3% of the population, as I am so picky on so many other things that it would be like finding a needle in a haystack!
_______________________

It might be 2-3% if you could get honest answers. Don't be discouraged, though. Just look for the needle that's standing up.

I'm a long way way off; I'm trying to figure out the soon to be post-D R with WAW. We have 3 children.

I know trust will be a HUGE issue. There are/were many unresolved trust issues with us.

I also wonder if we DBers won't be hyper-sensitive to people who do not meet our new expectations. I hope in the future,I will change my more of the same behavior that brought me to this point in my life.

Will we analyze every behavior we see from people in our post-D life? Comparing it to our DB knowledge base?

Wow. A life I never imagined I would contemplate.

I think it's perfectly natural to have trust issues when you are still healing. After all, you've got a painful injury and it needs to be protected from reinjury until it heals.

But once there has been some healing, most of us want to venture out and take a few risks again. I look at it this way - what's the WORST thing that can happen? You can get hurt again but the good part is that you know now what you didn't know then - that you won't die! You'll not only live through it but you'll be OK again. I think it's a little like being stoned to death with popcorn - realistically - it ain't gonna happen! It might be uncomfortable and sometimes painful, but not fatal.

Trusting others is relatively easy - first by not holding all accountable for the actions of one. Not everyone is like your ex spouse (thank gawd, you're saying). It's a big world out there with lots of people. Observe and make sure the words and the actions match. Then decide accordingly. It's not fail proof but it's a good start. It's trusting ourselves that often presents the problem. Hopefully we're wiser and we've learned from our experiences but can we trust ourselves to make a decision that's any wiser the next time around?

I think we have to be careful not to get hung up on the idea of guarantees. Because the only guarantee is that there is no guarantee. None of us want to go through what we've been through again but when you're dealing with us flawed human beings, it's always a possibility. Unfortunately, people don't come with a written guarantee of the integrity of a product and of the maker's responsibility for the repair or replacement of defective parts. LOL But wouldn't that make it easy?

Nice post, Dulcie.

Johanna

I agree, Dulcie.. I really like your point about realizing that even if we get hurt, it won't be fatal. I guess that's one good thing about the hellish experience of getting divorced. It's so bad, that once you live through it, there's not likely to be anything else that ever hurts as bad.

Reading your words made me realize, that while I've had my feelings hurt a couple times by men post D... that I was pretty damned resilient. I can honestly say that I'm willing to risk the hurts for the good times-- because the good can be very very good, and the bad is not fatal.

I also agree that it's important we NOT hold others accountable for our ex's sins. In terms of trust, oddly I find that I'm doing the opposite. He was SO untrustworthy, that I seem to have associated lies with him exclusively-- and am finding it quite easy to trust other men just because they are not my wasband. I know that's totally screwed up, but in a way I'm just relieved to know that I still have the ability to trust. I can become more discerning and shrewd if I need to-- or I can eliminate from my life those people who turn out not to deserve my trust. I lean to the latter. I think I will be willing to just dump those who lie to me, just like writing off a loss in a business.

Very cool thread.

The trust issues.... that's a tricky one. I've had 2 post DB R's (not post D because that drug out for 3 yrs, so yeah, technically I wasn't D'd yet but was sure done with DB!).

The first R was rebound, plain and simple. Loneliness and severe lack in judgement. But trust was a major issue and I couldn't trust him. I thought maybe it was just because of all I'd been through with the XH and tried really hard to have an open mind. But it was my intuition kicking in and I should have listened to it... he cheated on me too and even gave my XH's OW the link to my thread. So listen to your heart - if you are having trust issues maybe there is a reason bigger than just the baggage issue. There is such a thing as trying too hard to not repeat past mistakes or not hold new R accountable for the old.

I'm in my 2nd post DB relationship now... been together a year and happy and engaged. I went into this relationship with a totally different mindset. It wasn't my first post DB R, it wasn't rebound, I was 100% over my XH and all his antics. And I was a new person thanks to God and DB so I approached this R as a NEW PERSON in a NEW RELATIONSHIP. Kept an open mind, took my wisdom from what I'd learned but went into the R as if it was my first R ever with no scars. If you go into a R with your guard up or giving only half your heart, you're not being fair to you or the new person. After all, they aren't the ones who hurt you, they deserve the best you can give and not the pieces of what you have left.

Of course all R have issues and the old ghosts do creep up now and then but DB has given us new skills and we are all older and wiser. If you analyze it too much or compare it to the past, you're dooming it from the start. You have to trust yourself enough to know that you know what you want and need and wouldn't be attracted to this new person if he/she didn't have the potential to meet those needs and be the partner you're looking for.

Geez, I can totally relate to what you're saying. I've been divorced since Dec, separated a year. Have gone out with several men and nothing seems to click. I did the online dating too and had mostly good experiences but did not feel a connection with anyone. I get what you're saying about the sex issue too!!!! After being sexually dead with EH for many years, suddenly sex is of great interest to me. Who'd of thought?!!?

I'm now in a spot of great discouragement about the dating thing. When I was first separated, I had two or three dates a week. Now, it's Friday night and I'm sitting home wishing I had something to do. GRRRRRRR!!!!

Anyway, I'll be checking in on your thread for more good advice!!!!

This is truly a wonderful thread and I am so glad I found it when I did!

I always say.....that as I look back at my separation, D etc...things tended to happen when I was ready for them. I feel the same about a post D R!! When I least expect it, it will happen!

Second Chnaces ~ I love the idea of "Mr. Right Now". I mentioned the "perfect guys" in a tongue in cheek manner. Sometimes people think just because you are both single, then you have enough in common ~ therefore they are "perfect" for you!!! LOL!

Barbie ~ Sounds like you are in a great R right now!

I like that you are both adjusting to each other's interests!
I agree that chemistry is very important. If you find you are trying too hard to like someone, then there is probably no chemistry there! Who wants to work too hard at something that should be enjoyable, right??!

Savedwoman~ congrats on your R and engagement...you sound very happy!

I really like that you mention knowing how much to take. We all did take far more than we should have in the name of our marriages....yet will we be super sensative and walk on the first red flag?

I honestly think that after the experiences we have had and the lessons that we have learned...the majority of us will know when that line comes.

The only advise that I can think of is this, we know ourselves, what we have been thru and what baggage we may still need to resolve in ourselves. But since the chances are that we would be dating other divorced people, did they come thru their experiences in the same way?? Did they learn and grow, or are they still stuck in the same pattern. Taking your time to find this out seems to me to be critical.

Stateflower

The important thing though is that you know that you are progressing forward and processing all the crap that you know to look for now. If we knew HALF of this crap when we were younger, we might have had vastly different lives. Oh, the stupidity and inexperiance of youth!

JoJo

This is a good thread.
I'm very worried about a future relationship with a man.
About a lot of things.
Mostly, I know that I 'm not as willing to give as much of myself as I gave to my X.
The things I gave were very special, and if I don't give them, how could I ever expect that a man would be willing to want less than that? So it is sort of a catch 22 I guess.
It isn't only trust, but I suppose a childish response to giving so much and getting kicked in the teeth and transferring that to ANY guy...which isn't fair, but I suppose natural.

I suppose I am in the 'why bother' stage. But then, my heart was made for sharing and giving so it isn't natural for me to withhold. I suspect that means I will sabotage any chance at a future relationship, cut off my nose to spite my face etc.etc.

I've gone out to dinner, tennis or skiing with 3 men since my divorce in August. It took so much EFFORT. There are a few guys that want to go out that I have kept at bay: meaning we may have something in common and there might could be a spark, so I want this ugly trial behind me so I don't let them in on my worry/obsession/upset at getting my financial life in order before I feel free enough/confident enough to get involved with someone else's life.

I think I'm being selfish and self absorbed but I'm not sure I want to give any of me away ever again...I kinda feel that I have so very little of me left. I suppose, as Dulcie said, I am healing and protecting the scabs. Maybe so, but it sure feels empty. THose of us who really DBd for years and years ...maybe we have gotten so damn empty that we are afraid of the flood that will happen if we open our hearts again. I guess my longwinded drivel is mostly that it is all so damn overwhelming that it feels easier to pull the covers over my head.

OTher than that, I'm doing fine

.
gd

gd1,

I think if you find the right person, you will be willing to let your guard down a bit. If you build up a wall, so as not to be hurt, it keeps you from getting what you need also.

I think you will find that most men will treat you as you want to be treated.

For gosh sakes, give those guys a break!

Sometimes a friend can turn out to be someone rather special.

rayanne

Great thread! I'm dating someone now who I met many many years ago at my cousins wedding - timing wasn't right then for either of us but we are both divorced now and we met up last year and the spark was still there. I have developed strong feelings for him over time - not sure he is on the same page as I am. I know I have to have that "talk" with him to see if he feels the same but I dread it - not sure if is the reality that maybe he doesn't? Fear of rejection again? Or not wanting something to end that I am still enjoying but I guess if it is one sided than really what am I enjoying right? We don't get to spend as much time together as I would like since we both have young children and he is also very involved in his career at this time. Our kids get along great which is a huge plus. But we don't get much alone time GRRR. What I'm trying to say is I'm not wanting more out of the relationship (i.e. marriage or moving in) but I guess what I'm searching for is affirmation from him that he is on the same page as I. How would others approach this - sometimes men hate these mushy, feelings talks (right Soupman?) - don't like to be held to anything right?

Missy

Missy,

Don't think I'd come right out and ask how he feels. If he's just slightly behind you, it could scare him off.

You could say something like, " I'm sure glad to have you around." and see and see what he says.

Are you sure you aren't just worried about his leaving? If he keeps coming around, that should tell you something. I doubt that he would keep asking you out if he didn't like you and enjoy your company. Right?

You going to Florida this year?

Have you heard from GG lately? I emailed her, but my email was bounced back. Not sure what happened.

rayanne

Rayanne: That's what I'm afraid of too - going to a place that he is not close to. He recently moved closer to me (not for me - his job) but since then we hardly see each other - this new job is very tenseful for him and takes extremely seriously and I'm okay with that plus he is trying to work out a new schedule with his kids, thus I have to be more patient.

I have talked with her - she is doing okay but busy. Not sure why her email bounced back.

Not making it to the FL party - just bought a house and too much money tied up there right now. Bummer! Go and have fun for me and take good notes

Missy

As some of the oldtimers know, I've been in a post-divorce relationship for four years. Things are going extremely well and in many ways it is a better relationship than what either one of us had with our exs. It is an honest, straightforward and intimate relationship. I am free to be me and he is free to be him. It is very liberating but intensely close at the same time. I think what we have has evolved in no small part because of the work we have done within ourselves, the lessons learned from the failure of our long term marriages, as well as just the life experiences that you have had as a result of just being in your 40's. I think you mellow out more, sweat less of the small stuff and have the maturity to focus on what is really important.

Rayanne had an excellent point when she said a friend can turn out to be someone rather special. That was exactly what happened with us. For those that don't me, he was a fellow dber. Missy and Rayanne were around back in 1999, and Linda has met us and knows our story. For those that don't know us, we both had long term marriages, 19 yrs for him, 23 for me. Both exs were involved with other people and our dbing efforts to save our respective marriages didn't save it. Our divorces were final within a week of each other. We were just friends helping each other through the worst times in our lives, not looking for anything, and in fact even repressing "those funny feelings" when they first surfaced. As time went on, we found that we had a great deal more in common than just the exs.

We were friends first and valued that friendship. Because of that, I think some things were easier since we never set out to "date". He knew all my crap, I knew all his. No secrets about anything. And its been that way ever since. We always figured that if it ever was to end, it should end sooner rather than later. I guess neither one of us felt desperate to BE in a relationship, so we were relaxed enough to just go with the flow. So neither one ever held back anything. We were honest with all of our emotions and feelings, including the lingering feelings that we both had early on for our former spouses. Neither one took it personally, we saw it all part of the natural healing process. Believe it or not having the freedom to share something like that meant we could share our inner most feelings without fear, and that actually brought us closer. In essence, I let him into my world and he let me into his. In doing so, we created our world, which we deeply cherish and realize that total honesty is the only way to preserve it. We place a high value on it, and have a pact that no matter what we never hold back anything. All the cards are always on the table. You can't deal with what you don't know. So we always agreed, we'd rather know, no matter how hurtful. This has allowed us the opportunity to nip issues in the bud while they are small annoyances and before they develop into bigger problems.

One of the things that I think helped us immensly, both as individuals and as a couple was that we were apart in a long distance relationship for two years. It allowed us the opportunity to be on our own, to work on ourselves, to focus on our children and to clean up the messes that our exs left in their wake. It allowed us to focus on the friendship part of our relationship.

I think it is really important to look at the baggage that you have not only from your marriage, but also from childhood disappointments, past failures and your own self-portrait or self-image. We have to understand very well who we are, how we relate to others, and the part that we played in the demise of our marriage, so we do not repeat the same patterns of behavior in a new relationship. We are all used to doing things in a way that is comfortable for us, even if those ways have evolved from a dysfunctional past or a flawed image of ourselves. It is hard to let go an image we have painted about ourselves and of the behavior patterns that have emerged in the way we relate to others. I think books are great in helping us to understand behavior, gain insight both into ourselves and others.

Understanding at the intellectual level is the easy part. The hardest part is taking that information with all of the understanding about past behaviors and hurts and then doing something about it by implementing this newfound knowledge in real life experiences. I believe that we can in the present, by changing our perceptions about ourselves and others take the actions that will change the results we will get in the future. This is where being in a loving relationship is essential. It allows you both to try out new patterns of relating.

I think you can heal hurts from the past by replacing them with positive experiences in the present. You can in essence heal and resolve the hurts of the past in the present, by the way you resolve issues now within the context of a present relationship. In the process of doing this, you become closer.

So many post divorce relationships fail because people have new partners but still are stuck at an emotional level with that false picture of themselves as in someway undeserving and stuck in the same old behaviors that simply never worked for them. Then, when the realtionship fails, all they did was confirm that distorted view they had of themselves to begin with. I think people reach a point where they �get it� at an intellectual level, but not necessarily at the emotional one and this is where the gut responses come from. The more of those flawed images and patterns that we can replace with healthier ones, the better we will be as individuals and the better we will be as a part of a couple with our partner.

Change is difficult. But it�s worth the risk. Why? Because you already know you get hurt the other way, but with the new way there is a chance, a good chance that you won�t get hurt. So what really do you have to lose? It all boils down to trust. Trust that this person in this relationship will not hurt you as others in other relationships have. The thing that I have discovered about trust is that the more you give it, the easier it becomes to give, and more you do it the more you can do it. Same thing happens with new patterns of behavior for relating with others. You start with baby steps and before you it, you are off and running!

I guess the most important thing that I can say is that there is hope... lots of hope. You just have to believe in yourself and let go of the fear of getting hurt. We can't be foolish and give our hearts away to just anyone, but I believe that when it is the right person, it will all fall into place. In the meantime, my suggestion is pursue your interests, cultivate friendships with the opposite sex, don't be in a rush to make it more, take your time, and finally in my book, honesty is always the best policy. Just go with the flow and let things evolve. If they are meant to be it will be. I think the more relaxed you are the better you will feel about yourself and the more attractive you will be to a potential partner. You know guys, we can't forget that we are the ones that are the catch!

Hi Missy,
I agree with Rayanne and just keeping it to a simple statement that let's him know you enjoy spending time with him. It does sound from what you say that he has his plate pretty full right now. You certainly don't want to add to his stress level. Sounds like you both enjoy each others company. That's a good start. Focus on the friendship part and see what develops.

MC

Missy,

He might not be where you are at now, but that doesn't mean he won't be in the future. You don't want to scare him off if there is a chance for something more.

I think most women put R's before their jobs, but often it's the other way around for men, especially if things are really intense at work.

Perhaps you should hold off a bit on any discussion till things calm down for him.

I imagine it is a bit unsettling to not know how your
gentleman friend feels about you.

I owed GG an email for quite a while. Was hoping to connect with her when she came to Oregon in May. She was going to be about three hours away. Didn't happen though. When I finally emailed her, it bounced back. Perhaps her inbox was full.

I'm not sure that I can get to the Florida Party this year.
I want to, but not sure I can get time off. Have a summer job. Last year I had all the time in the world, but no money.

If I go, what is it you want notes about?

Congrats on the new house!

rayanne

P.S. I definitely would have fun for you!

As always you are exactly right! Sometimes my patience level gets the best of me and then I start second guessing everything - not sure what I'm in such a hurry for - I plan to be around for many more years - okay I feel better now! Just that darn self esteem creeps in and gets the best of me. Have a great weekend!

Missy

Missy, I hear what you're saying, but I think you should hold that thought. If at all possible, go with your heart. Behave as seems appropriate, based on what's in your heart.

You can't control what's in his, so don't fret over it. Just act according to your own heart, and be glad that your heart is healed enough to feel/love again.

My experience is not vast, but it seems like it never works out well to try to "define" or "label" what's going on in a relationship. It can be frustrating, limiting and I'm beginning to think it's just not worth the bother.

My modus operendi right now, is to just enjoy what is... without trying too hard to figure it out, or define it, or project it into a possible future. If I'm glad a man is part of my life right now, then I'm content-- more than content. I don't want to have any R talks unless I'm sure we'll get it right.

It sounds like your guy is pretty stressed, pretty busy, pretty much up to his a$$ in aligators. Don't add to it with R talk. Just be the best thing in his life.

Living Well, thanks for sharing your story. Your post D relationship exemplifies what I see as the key to success in post D relationships-- unfailing honesty, and understanding what you/your partner have been through so you can deal with the whole person, scars and all.

I have a couple close man friends, both divorced, and our friendships started with comiserating, sharing stories. In each case, I feel that we have a closer, more honest relationship than I ever did with the man I was married to for more than two decades!

I also think the long distance factor can be a good one, as it allows emotional intimacy without the confusion of chemistry/physical involvement. I'm a huge fan of sex, but even I must admit it can make things murky if you're not careful.

Each time I learn of someone who moves on, into a healthy, loving and fulfilling post D relationship, it gives me such hope for my own future. When I was first divorced, I swore never again-- no to marriage, no to relationships, no to risking caring for anyone. Naturally, I've mellowed from that stance-- hearts are meant for loving, caring, sharing; we are no designed to be alone. I totally expect to make more mistakes, and to live through them even if they hurt. But stories like yours make me look forward to the future, and know that somewhere, somehow, things will work out for me too.

Thanks - you gave a new perspective on my situation - that's why you guys are so great! Interesting though because my friends who don't partake on this board (home grown friends) say that I should definitely approach him - I agree with everyone here though - I think that would put him way over the edge and rock his world!!! Then I would be the one who lost!

Missy

hi SC

Sometimes I think we are our own worst enemies, in that we want that instant gratification, we want that great relationship right now and then blow it. We have to remember that the kind of relationship that we want is one that TAKES TIME to develop. It won't happen overnight and if we rush things, we run the risk of destroying it in its early stages or winding up with the wrong guy.

I speak from experience here. Early on I was pretty intense, because hey I had found a great guy! Almost scared him off too! Except that I had enough sense to back off and give him space, so he was the one who came to me. Hmmm, sounds like a little dbing on my apart there, doesn't it?

LOL

I think as women we tend to be "ready" for the next step quicker than the guys, so when we find a gem, we need to give them the chance to catch up to where we are. This is where for us that long distance helped. It was easy not to be as "available". It is amazing how much they end up missing you and wanting that contact when it's not there. There is some truth to the adage "absence makes the heart grow fonder".

I think some of our impatience comes from our own fears. Fear of perhaps being alone forever and not finding that special person. The way I dealt with that was by coming to the conclusion that I just didn't want anyone, I wanted the RIGHT one for me. If he was, fine we'd go on, but if he wasn't we wouldn't. And that would be ok. It didn't HAVE to be HIM. I was testing him out for me. I guess that helped me relax and go with the flow. I had figured out already that with or without him, I was fine and had my goals.

MC

Awesome post! What you said is so true and I think that is where my fear lies that if I don't contact him he'll forget about me all together. How childish is that? Plus the fact that it comes across as needy as heck and I don't want to be that way at all!
Missy

hi Missy,
I think SC put it well when she said to "be the best thing in his life" This is so true. Have fun and enjoy the times together, even with the kids. It's important that this part be cultivated too. It will be one less worry for the two of you if things go further. It also allows both of you to see a different side of each other and gives you another opportunity to get to know him better.

Why is it that we seem to always be in a rush to get somewhere? It seems sometimes that we tend to plan and prepare too much for the future and forget to enjoy the moment that is.

When I look back, I see that a lot of my life was spent preparing for the future and along the way I missed some of the scenery. I can't go back to recapture that, but what I can do today is enjoy more what I have and not be so worried about what will or will not happen. Life is totally unpredicatable and there is just so much we can plan for. I see it more as a constant re-grouping based on the circumstances that evolve.

I think we stop being needy when we quit worrying, realize that we have all that we need to be happy and start enjoying the life that we have.

MC

Thanks Livingwell! I think I need to print off your post for my fridge as a daily reminder to myself! You hit the nail right on the head!!!! Thanks for bringing that all into perspective.

Missy

Hi all! Just a couple of comments here. I have a library of R books here and of course as I evolve, the titles change. I also own Mars & Venus Starting Over & Mars & Venus on a Date. Both have been helpful at times. I don't agree with everything in them either. About a year ago I bought the Surrendered Single by Laura Doyle. Previously, the Surrendered Wife had been recommended to me while I was still actively divorce busting. I'm finally ready for Surrendered Single and strongly encourage any DBer who is interested in starting to date to take a look at it. Its all about healing yourself, being comfortable in your own skin before you are ready to start sharing part of your life with someone else. It REALLY discourages any kind of manipulative or controlling behaviour, however discreet. I think it makes a lot of sense.

I continue to date Josh after several months. I have learned that by saying very little, I usually get what I would like, because he wants it to. For example - we will not be together next weekend. I was hoping we might get together one weeknight instead. I considered asking him. Instead, I just mentioned that I will miss him next Sat. He told me he wants to take me out for dinner on Thurs night. I'm sure he already had it in mind, but it was so much more rewarding to have HIM do the asking rather than the other way around. Somewhat old fashioned I suppose. I DO ask him out sometimes.

My new R is proceeding slowly, but consistently. Like everyone else here, I have major trust issues. But always being able to count on his phone calls, reassurances & dates are how I am learning to trust in him. Not looking too far ahead. Not beyond a week or 2. For now - that is key.

Sounds like you are all doing well in your post-D Rs too. Its nice to be able to read and post about it.

Take care all!

Barb

In the book I mentioned earlier, I found a checklist. It says before you really commit, let a divorced man into your life, you need to ask some really pointed questions to balance out your emotions-- and get a realistic idea of what you are signing up for.

Here's the list (form How to Marry a Divorced Man, by Leslie Fram)

1. How long has he been divorced?
2. What are the ways you are similar to the X?
3. What are the ways you are dissimilar to the X?
4. Can you how see the real reasons for why his first marriage failed?
5. what are they?
6. Does he still possess all these traits that caused his first marriage to fail?
7. Did he act honorably during, throughout, and after the divorce?
8. Is his X antagonistic, potentially posing a problem for you in the future?
9. Does he have any children?
10. what is his relationship to them?
11. What is the frequency of his involvement?
12. do you feel this is too little/much/just right?
13. are his kids antagonistic, potentially posing a problem for you in the future?
14. would you want to have a child just like this with him?
15. would you want to have a child with him?
16. do you want to become more like him?
17. given that his loyalties and resources are split, is he loving enough? rich enough? will he want a child with you? will he do so within your bio clock?
18. Can he separate from his past?
19. Does he want to, and is he capable of evolving as a couple with you?
20. If yes, what makes you think so?
21. Has he been self-reflective and/or in therapy since the divorce?
22. Is he open to couples therapy with you, if need be?
23. Would you want to spend the rest of your life with him if he never changed from the way he is now?
23. Given all of the above, can you live with the package deal?

It says to ask yourself these pointed questions every so often (since your answers will change as the relationship evolves).... to check your emotional pulse against the hard facts... only then can you decide if he's worth the effort/trouble.

Says that if the answers don't please you, maybe the timing is wrong (not the man). He might need more time/developing before you totally take him into your life... and if this is the case, take a hiatus until he's ready. Unless he has PROVEN that he is capable of, and wants to change, don't look at POTENTIAL. (we're all born with it, but we don't all opt to achieve our potential). If he shows no/insufficient signs of advancing in the proper direction, get going. Direct your love elsewhere, lots of people need it.

They said the key question is "did he act honorably during his divorce". If yes, he might be marriage material. If no, his past behavior may be an indication of future actions with/against you.

(of course that's just another verse of the song about if he's cheating on his wife with you, why would you think he wouldn't cheat on you later on....)

Anyway, I thought it was a pretty good list, much more objective than just swooning and saying you love him and you'll find a way to work things out...

Did he act honorably during his divorce????

Interesting question and one that I think many many women who are dating divorced men need to ask themselves. But here's the big problem....can you believe what he tells you about his divorce?

In my case I am confident that I have the truth because I have known my special guy thru his divorce processes and I was not a love interest. I believe that my knowledge of his divorce is completely true...

But what if you meet a man now. Can you believe what he tells you about his XW? I guarantee you that my XH tells horrible stories about me. And I'm willing to bet that all your Xs are telling horrible stores about all of you too!

Remember there are always three sides to every story - hers, his and the truth. How do you get to the truth??

Stateflower

So, would you like to see a movie on Friday night with me? I'ld love to, but I'll need references first....may I contact your XW??? LOL LOL LOL

Stateflower

Flower,

I'll be in Boston in late August. I'll be with my mom and daughter. (LOL)...Actually we will be traveling up to Maine and then back.

This is an interesting thread. Someone pasted a list to consider if dating a divorced person. At my age if the woman isn't divorced or widowed, I have many more questions.

As far as past relations, just listen to the language. If it's "I learned a lot from the experience." then I'm interested. But if it's "He's a creep and the cause of all my pain" I would take pause.

Now as to my wife..."I learned a lot from the experience with that creep who caused me so much pain!"

I have been following this thread for some time now and I just want to say that I think it is great. There is so much support on the board for saving your M, but as we all know you need support when you let go of your M and move on to a new R. There is so much great advice here.

I just have a couple of questions, does anyone ever worry that the person they develop a new R with (assuming that they too are divorced) will want to return to their old partner as it is natural to still have lingering feeling there? Also, is this something that you would bring up in a conversation or would you just leave things alone?

putter

SC
This is a great list! Thanks for posting it. I think it is very valuable to answer these questions honestly for him and for us. They force you to look at the reality and see if you can live with it.

I think the last one is the best of all. He is a package deal, and indeed can you live with that? If you can't, then it's time to give the relationship some serious thought before making a life commitment.

MC

Putter: Oh my gosh how are you doing? What is your status now? By your post I would gather things didn't turned out as you hoped and for that I'm sorry!

In answer to your question - I guess it all depends how long they have been divorced, how much they talk about their X or dwell on their X? How much control their X has over their life? This would be potential red flags for me. For me - I don't know that I would bring it up in conversation unless you really suspected that something wasn't right - otherwise it may appear that you are insecure?

Great to read your post - give an update okay.

Missy

Good question Putter and one that I am more concerned about the other way around. I talk about my impending Divorce too much with Josh. I am trying to curb that and in fact said NOTHING last night and intend to again say nothing tonight. H phoned while I was with Josh last Sat. I guess he must wonder.

I am lucky in this regard since Josh has never been married. Though, over 40 and never married one must wonder whether they ever intend to settle down. For now - its not my concern. I'm living one day at a time with Mr Right Now and enjoying every minute of it!

Glad to see you post, Putter

Love Barb

SC ~ THANKS for the checklist--it is EXCELLENT!!

Thanks also to you and to Barbie for the book titles...time to go to the bookstore....do you think they sell these in plain brown wrappers? LOL!!!

Really good point about trying to gauge the new person's reaction to and behaviors during the D... I agree that if they constantly blame the other person, it is time to lace up your running shoes!!!

I also like the suggestions of NOT trying to controol things...I had enough of that in my first M!!

c'mon, anybody?

Alright SC...I'll take a shot a this...maybe we should come up with our own list of dealbreakers??

Here's a start....

Angry/disparaging about ex
Any kind of abuse (of course...)
Bad financial habits
Overly possessive
None of his own friends/interests (therefore too needy)
Dishonest

Okay, they are not in order of importance...but it is a start!!

Hey Second,

on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" they keep waxing different parts of the male anatomy. I thought that the guy with the really hairy back was going to come off the table and deck of few folks when his back got waxed. The look on his face when the wax pulled out all of the backhair was exquisite. Pain in the extreme. So that's always an option for you if you find a fuzzy one. Maybe not an option for him, though... LOL

JoJo

Nah, can't do it. Even if they wax, it grows back as stubble... just can't do it. I can handle the few odd hairs at the sides of the shoulders, but those that are hairy like a bear, are just not my thing.

Of course, it's been mentione to me on many occasions that I am unreasonably picky!

After all of this I think that we can be picky and not think twice about it.

JoJo

One thing on my list of deal breakers is not being a good parent. I know that I'm chiming in a bit late here, but if the guy is not a good parent and we don't have similar ideas on how children should be raised, that will cause alot of problems in the relationship. I don't want to be fighting about how to raise kids.

I've seen too many marriages with stepchildren and children that were not given a chance because of the "your kids, vs. my kids, vs. our kids," mentality that sort of thing. It should be a FAMILY, not an us vs. them type of thing.

Other deal breakers:
The kids always come before the marriage.
A nasty ex that you have lots of problems with.
Intrusive inlaws or other family or friends.

Short list that I wanted to contribute.

JoJo

Quote:

One thing on my list of deal breakers is not being a good parent.

Other deal breakers:
The kids always come before the marriage.
A nasty ex that you have lots of problems with.
Intrusive inlaws or other family or friends.

Short list that I wanted to contribute.

JoJo

-------------
Jojo, good thoughts! I had not put the parent thing, since I don't have kids and am too old to start now-- but if I were really being honest, I do care about them being a good dad, and I think I give bonus points for a man with kids, since I could sort of share?

But I also agree that you can have too much of a good thing. A good dad does not mean that I should always have to take 2nd place, whatever is leftover.

I am on the fence on the wicked ex or crazy family/friends. I guess it depends on how he handled it, and whether he let it affect me, us, him. In one way, I'd hate to drop a great guy because I don't like dealing with his ex. (hey, they're divorced, he doesn't want to deal with her either....)

But if he was always getting wound up, and it affected him, me, us... well then I'd drop him because his lack of being able to cope, not really because of her.

Maybe it's just semantics...

Oh, thought of another thing. A man who maintains close friendships with ex wives, ex lovers... this would weird me out.

I've been divorced almost a year. I haven't felt like dating. But the few times I've 'gone out to dinner' there is one main question on my mind: Who was the WAS in YOUR marriage? I don't like quitters. And if someone walks away from a long term marriage, I really don't want to get into a relationship with them...cause if he can't face issues, he's gonna run when the going gets tuff in our relationship too.

Just my thoughts.
gd

Love your pig saying at the bottom. You made me LOL. I needed that.

I have to comment on the chemistry thing. That is what I have w/ my WAH and still have after 30 years - most of that not being together. So don't go for just chemisty. You gotta have someone who understands the give and take in a relationship and who doesn't quit when they don't get there way. Look at the little things: how do they treat a waitress in a restaurant if they don't get their order right. Pay attention to the way they treat others and if they have humility. Being humble is very sexy.

I'm not even D yet and I'm already thinking...
Thanks for the laugh!

I can't believe I didn't think of the dysfunctional family or nasty in-laws....it definitely was a deal breaker for me this time!!!

This is a really good point too.........

Quote:

Look at the little things: how do they treat a waitress in a restaurant if they don't get their order right. Pay attention to the way they treat others and if they have humility. Being humble is very sexy.

Okay, lets also talk about the deal makers.... the things that make you think they might be a keeper.

In no particular order:
-kind to animals
-great smile, not just their mouth but also the eyes-- a real smile
- not only obliges when you ask for help, but spontaneously offers help
- follow through on what they say
- calls for no reason, just to keep in touch
- makes coffee in the morning
- will watch a chick flick with you
- appreciates and thanks you for little things
- will fix things without complaining
- when you say "we need to talk" they listen, and talk.
- will be honest and tell you stuff instead of being a different (better?) person when they are with you.

Just a start, let's keep it going.

You just described my new man, Josh. Except for the "we need to talk" - I have avoided that.

I'd like to add a couple:

"He is good to his Mom and Sisters and phones them weekly"

"He loves to cook for me"

"He makes an effort to see me weekly even though we live 90 min apart"

Barb

More from my list:

Great kisser.
Comfortable with his own body and sexuality.
Confortable with my body and sexuality.
Willing to explore each others bodies and minds.
Willing to wear something because it makes him even more attractive to me.
Good traveling companion, willing to explore those out of the way places.
Laughing at the stupid things in life that are funny just because.
Sharing inside jokes with each other.
Desires me and lets me know that he does in a variety of ways from overt to subtle.
Willing to be close without being clingy.
Offering advice but backing off with the advice if I ask.
Understanding that I am a flirt and very open but that does not mean that I would ever cheat on him.
Strong when I need strength, soft when I need tenderness.
An intelligent and active mind.
Has a wide variety of friends and aquaintances but some friendships that are special and he nurtures them.
Willing to host parties.
Tender and caring with children and compassionate with older people.

This is going to be a long list.

JoJo

These are great!!!
A few more........

*Appreciates me for who I am
*Good sense of humor
*Can go to a party and meet new people easily
*Affectionate in an appropriate way ~ holds my hand, kisses me hello, etc.
*REALLY listens when I talk about work, how my day was, etc.
* Nice to my friends and family
*Makes a good martini (or whatever your favorite drink is...)

*worth millions
*drives a porsche

Okay....the last two were a joke....but they WOULD be acceptable!!

LOL!!

wow -

I think I fit the bill for you, sun

Hud

Speaking of their interaction with your family - when do you think the time is right for them to meet? Josh met my kids in the first month (it was difficult for him NOT to), but we haven't talked about him meeting my parents or siblings or me meeting his. Any thoughts on this. I was thinking the 6 month mark might be about right. Its been almost 4 since we started dating.

Barb

Whenever you would feel comfortable. I don't think that you need a set time period for meeting each other's family. You will know if and when it is right....

JoJo

Ugh. I typically wait till it comes up naturally. Ie, a holiday or family gathering... at a point in the R when you plan to spend that day together. (like Thanksgiving?)

In my case, my family is a little weird, well perhaps weird enough to scare people. I'm upfront about it, so no one ever expects a "normal" mom...

Actually, in terms of someone needing "approval" from people who are important to me... it's not necessarily my family. There are about a half dozen people that are important enough to me that if they liked (or had misgivings about) a new R, that I'd take it seriously. Only one of those people is related to me by blood.

Meeting family does have an air of making things "official". It also gives you insight to him-- by seeing how he treats, interacts, etc with them. Or even if he changes, say from a grown man back to a more childlike role with his parents.

I'm not sure the calender matters as much as how the R is going. If you are exclusive, the R matters, you think you have a future... well it's time to get legit, which includes meeting important people in each others' lives. Just my opinion.

Quote:

More from my list:

Great kisser.
Comfortable with his own body and sexuality.
Confortable with my body and sexuality.
Willing to explore each others bodies and minds.
Good traveling companion, willing to explore those out of the way places.
Sharing inside jokes with each other.
Desires me and lets me know that he does in a variety of ways from overt to subtle.
Willing to be close without being clingy.
Strong when I need strength, soft when I need tenderness.
An intelligent and active mind.
Willing to host parties.

Oh yeah, these are some I want too! And while I'm thinking about it...

Brings a warm washcloth to bed afterwards for cleaning up.
Wants to cuddle or have body contact while sleeping.
Someone who can take you to the party, and is attentive-- but not like a barnacle. The two of you can mingle seperately, then come back together periodically.
Someone who will help host an event-- from planning, prep, to cleaning up afterwards.
Someone who is okay with me being the expert in my areas, and doesn't feel threatened. Ie, we compliment rather than compete.
Someone who is okay with my horse habit. Maybe even proud of what I accomplish and happy for me.
Someone who will volunteer to rub my shoulders, back... without even being asked. Ahhhhh.
Oral inclinations. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh

Enough for now, more later.

2nd,

Let us know when you find this guy and ask if he has any brothers, will ya?

JoJo

I haven't posted before - but I have been following this thread! It is a great thread!

I had a very clingy X. When we got M, he wanted us to be Siamese twins. I had all the romance and flowers a girl could ask for - but the foundation was weak from the very beginning... If I disagreed with him - he usually interpreted that as my not loving him. So some of my requirements are based on the shortcomings of my last R. I am sure there will be new and improved R problems that I have yet to encounter!

How does the potential P handle himself during a conflict?

How do we work things out after a heated/emotional conflict? I use the word we - b/c well it is a together dynamics. There will be times when I am really hurt - others when he is really hurt.

How does a potential P react when I am not necessarily at my best - e.g. stressed or dealing with my own stuff? does he personalize it? Or can he handle that there are times that I have off or really bad days.

Does he have his own hobbies? Is he his own person? Can he handle that I have my own interests too? Can he handle that we are not clones - that an R is just a part of my life (although a very important one) - not my entire life.

Can he say no? Can he set boundaries? Can he accept that I have boundaries? That sometimes I will say no - b/c I have my own limitations and they may not always make rational sense - but they are real to me.

Can he handle that I work with a lot of men w/o being jealous?

Does he trust me to be able to take care of myself? Does he trust me to ask for help and/or support when I need it? Does he know how to ask for support/help when he needs it? (I can be pretty dense and insensitive sometimse...)

Does he enjoy physical intimacy? Is he also into hugs? Is he okay with me not being big on cuddling when I go to sleep (I tend to sleep hanging off the edge of my side of the bed! LOL!)

Is he an animal lover? I have four cats! LOL!

Does he want kids? I do.

And the most important one of all: Does he know the right answer to the question "Do you think this bathing suit makes me look fat?" LOL!

Manisha

2ndC listed:
- will watch a chick flick with you
__________________________

That's porno right?

Mike -

(notice my great smile)

Hi Second Chances & JoJo: Thanks for your input on the "family" meeting. So far he has met a couple of my close friends and passed their rigourous standards. One of my sisters has been asking to meet him, but with him being out of town it has been difficult. I'm not ready for the "parent" thing yet and with his parents in Montreal - its not likely to happen for a bit anyway. Guess I'll have to follow his lead on this one,

Barb

Hey Manisha: I asked Josh about cats the first time he was coming to my house. He told me he was allergic - "great, I thought - that's a deal breaker since I have 4 as well". Turns out he adores my kitties. He's even thinking of getting a kitten now since he has not reacted to mine.

Hud: Mine has watched Chick Flicks with me. One night we watched "Under the Tuscan Sun" so the next night I agreed to watch an adventure film. He chose an adventurous Chick Flick "Thelma & Louise". Go figure.

Barb

I forgot about the need to be a cat lover....good point!!

Another one....several of my friends "hide" purchases from their Hs...my ex never had a problem with my shop-a-holic tendencies....I definitely need that type of understanding from a man!!

PS......Hud, when are you picking me up in your porsche so we can go drink martinis??? No, seriously, how are you? I hope things are going well and that you haven't been posting because you have a very active social life!! (((((HUGS)))))

2ndC listed:
- will watch a chick flick with you
__________________________

That's porno right?

Mike,

No comment. We will just leaving you hanging on our every word.....and leave you wondering.....

JoJo

Quote:

2ndC listed:
- will watch a chick flick with you
__________________________

That's porno right?

Mike - (notice my great smile)

Aw Mikey, don't be silly. No you cuddle and watch the chick flick. You act out the porno.....

Take notes, if needed, okay?

Actually I bet I could get into watching a porno with a man. What I can't get into, is someone sneaking porn, or getting to where they miss the differences between a real woman and good sex, and what they see in the pornos. That's just icky... deal breakers, for me.

Quote:

I forgot about the need to be a cat lover....good point!!

Another one....several of my friends "hide" purchases from their Hs...my ex never had a problem with my shop-a-holic tendencies....I definitely need that type of understanding from a man!!

Oh yes, a keeper will like pussies. I have two furballs myself....

And, I insist on having my own discretionary money. Whether I blow it on manicures, at Victoria's Secret or on my horse habit, or invest it.... it's my perogative. I expect not to be questioned on it, or criticized. I will always pay my share of living expenses... but what I do beyond that is my business and I won't take any cr@p about it.

I am not secretive about it, and won't tolerate a man being secretive about how he spends either. But as long as it's not hookers, lap dances or drugs, he can buy what he wants... and I expect the same.

Jo and 2C,

The porn comment was really just a joke. More accurately, it was an attempt at a joke. I know what a chick flick is. I've watched Sense and Sensibility, Somewhere In Time, While You Were Sleeping, et al many times. And I think watching porn would be the ultimate low for a man. Why wouldn't he instead take time to touch, massage, cuddle, and ML to the RL woman he loves? Sheesh, what jerks guys that need porn must be! And to attempt to get his W to watch, too? Yuck!

Mike

Barn is revealing himself to be a sensitive man that watches chick flicks and even remembers which ones...
Careful there, Barn, you are in South Cali, BTW.....Don't start any rumors about... anything....

JoJo

Did we marry the same guy? That disagreeing thing is a nightmare isn't it?

Here is my short list:
NOT WHAT I HAVE NOW or WHAT I HAVE HAD OVER THE LAST YEAR.

Other Deal Makers:

- Good conversationalist. Is knowledgeable and can comfortably converse about current local, national, and international events, entertainment, and a wide variety of other topics, including sharing his day with you.

- Willing to cook together and do the associated clean up. A man that does dishes is sexy. All those suds, warm water....

- Will shower with you.

-will help with laundry and other household chores. Sharing those duties so you can have more leisure time together.

- Is not afaid to show intimacy in public and understands when it is not appropriate.

- Enjoys a wide variety of music and entertainment and willing to experiance new things.

Just a few additions that I thought of this weekend.

JoJo

Cool thread. Been reading it., How about a couple of other deal makers?

- Doesn't always look like he just woke up--neatly dressed, maintained hair, not dressed like a bum. (My ex got to that point... gross! Wouldn't even buy himself underwear... ewww).

- Flexible, can go with the flow. Isn't upset if friends drop by unexpectedly, can deal with any situation with grace and humor.

- Doesn't always talk about his ex when you're together! (Dated one of those not long ago --- bye bye

)

- Jockeys, no shorts. Ok, so I'm picky.

- Doesn't know what a couch potato is!

- Has no hang ups about long hair. (Ok, got into one of THOSE situations once before... and no, I won't grow the hair, it just doesn't "work for me" -- my hair gets wild when long and looks more professional on the job short!)

- Open minded, doesn't apply a lot of stereotypes (see item before, have been told women with short hair meet certain stereotypes lol and I've never once rode a harley or owned a big truck if you get my drift...

)

- Isn't threatened by independence.

- Creative problem solver, likes win-win situations.

- Isn't upset when I get carded still in bars and he isn't (ha ha... had a bar tender ask me once if I was a date's younger sister

Ego booster for me, but I doubt that helped the evening along...)

Hi all,
I've been reading this thread for weeks because not only is it helpful but very entertaining!!!! Now I have a question: I've been dating someone for about 6-8 weeks or so....we have lots of fun and he makes me laugh like no one ever has before. The thing is this....I don't feel a romantic or sexual chemistry with him. I mean, we hold hands, we're very affectionate with each other it's just that when we actually "make out" he just doesn't excite me. I have no desire to go further with him and do not think of him romantically. I told him after our last date that I just didn't feel any "chemistry" and he was very sweet about it but I think he still wants to date me. I said "fine" but I'd feel more comfortable if I paid my own way when we hung out. Is this stupid or what? Should I be more open minded about the "romance" thing or what? I mean....I'm just not feeling it. I've been separated for 13 mos, divorced for 7, he is not the first person I've dated.....but I swear, it's like kissing my brother!!!!

I wouldn't want to date someone that I didn't have some "spark" with. Since you've told him and he still wants to date you, I've come up with some thoughts why he would:
- he thinks he can create a spark if given long enough
- he thinks you'll eventually settle for his sense of humor
- he's too nice a guy to say goodbye
- he's trying to save face by dating you one more time
- he likes a challenge
- he likes a constant reminder that he's not sexy

The bottom line is (IMO), without an understanding that you're an occasional escort available in a pinch, you're doing yourself and him a disservice by dating. A man that you'd be interested in would have a hard time explaining to himself why you'd hang on to that guy. ("She's either taking advantage of the poor sap or is afraid to be alone.") And if you were another woman meeting him, would you respect him for dating a woman who said she's not interested in him?

Mike - glad I'm M and not dating

Yes, Good advice....not sure I would want to continue dating without a "spark"!!

I thought of two more deal makers....

1. holds my hand!! This is a simple, but very sweet gesture IMHO!

2. is comfortable in many social situations and gets along with my friends!

WOW, this dating stuff is hard!!!! I honestly don't know what to do about this guy. He's so much fun and so sweet and I did tell him that if he wanted to continue to hang out, that I would but I insisted on paying my own way. It seems that since I told him this we're talking even more than ever and I have to say that I hate the idea of not seeing him anymore. I do wonder, however, if now he thinks I'm a challenge because I'm not romantically interested. I don't know if given more time I could feel that way or not. I don't remember dating being this confusing the last time I did it (23 yrs ago)!!!! In the mean time, I have a date with someone else this weekend so maybe that will give me something to....hell, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how I feel!!!!! Is anyone else out there in a state of flux?
JILL

Hi there!

In response to Qoe...

I suggest you give it a bit more time. Sometimes feelings need a chance to grow. I am no expert, though. Remember - we call them "Mr Right Now" for a reason. Maybe he's just in your life for a little while. As long as you continue to be honest with him - what harm is there in continuing to see him. We all need different people in our lives for different reasons.

OK, folks, I have a question for all of you too. I have told you about Josh. Been dating him weekly for 4 months and everything is going very well. He calls me 2 or 3 times a week (he is out of town on a work project) & we get together on the weekends here, in his city or at the cottage. All is romantic, sweet etc. BUT...

A couple of times he has said "I'll call you on Monday" and then he doesn't. OK, in the scheme of things - how bad is that? Its the ONLY minor thing that has gone wrong, BUT...

I get so upset. I try to hold it in, but I don't sleep well that night. I worry that our relationship is over. I think I just imagined how good things were going. I convince myself that he is history. I agonize. I realize that these are trust issues carried over from my most deceptive marriage and the infidelities and lies of my H. I didn't see our split coming AT ALL!!! I keep control and remind myself not to get upset with Josh.

Of course he calls the next day and he fell asleep early or had too much work to do or got in late. I have absolutely no reason to suspect anything is not kosher. This has only happened a couple of times in 4 months. I just say something simple like "I missed you last night" - I don't get angry or upset since I think he would be turned off or see me as clingy or needy. Sometimes I say nothing. Once he said "Was I supposed to call you last night?" OK, this is a man who has NEVER been married before or even in a long term relationship.

Do you think I'm handling this right or can you suggest better ways. I almost think that too much honesty too soon can damage a relationship. He knows I have some baggage from my lousy marriage and I don't want my "Trust Issues" to scare him off.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Barb

Jill,

This is just my opinion of course, but if I don't get that spark...............it's not good for me, and I don't continue to date. I want that spark, I don't want to be feeling like I'm kissing my brother. lol

Barbie, wow, what a dilema, you've come such a long way. I think your deffinitely nervous because of everything you've been through. Divorce just ruins trust........especially what we have gone through.

Try not to worry, enjoy yourself, there's no need to get so upset, just date, have fun...........if and when you really know there's something to worry about, do it then.

Remember don't sweat the small stuff. If that's his only problem, count your blessings. lol

Wish you were going to Tampa, can't wait to see everyone.

Love,
Friend

Too top heavy to stand on her plastic legs said:
OK, this is a man who has NEVER been married before or even in a long term relationship.
-----------------

I think that you should consider this more than the "he didn't call me" thing. Of course, I'm assuming that he's older than 25.

You could solve the phone thing by simply saying, "It makes me wonder why you don't call me when you say you will. It's OK that you don't call everyday, but when you say you will and don't it raises trust issues for me. I thought you should know that, since it probably stems from my previous M."

You'll either see smoke coming out of his shoes as he runs away or he'll realize that his promises count, even the small ones. If it's #1, the sooner you find out he'll run the better. If #2, he'll take his words more seriously to show you that you can trust him.

Mike - Relationship Counselor with all the answers (I have them stored up since none are used in my M

)

Thanks Barb & Friend,
Barb, I know exactly how you feel!!!! Because my ex was such a lieing, cheating &*$&#!, I tend to not trust anyone. It's very hard to get a grip on the fact that there really are some decent people out there. Like you, I'm always looking for ulterior motives, are they really telling the truth, do they care, etc. Every little thing makes me put up my guard. It was awful being in that kind of M and now trying to keep it out of present/future relationships.

One of the things I've said that I want in future R, is to feel "safe". That is a hard thing to explain but I think most everyone on this board knows what I'm talking about.

Also, it's great to have this thread to learn from. You guys are the best!!!!

JILL

Hi friends & thanks for your input.

Friend: Yes, the trust issue is a tough one for us. Its not based on anything Josh has done - its based on my history, both with Ex and the few subsequent Rs/ guy friendships I've had since the split. Guys tend to disappear with no warning. This is only MY experience and not intended as a hit to all the wonderful guys out there who would never do such a cowardly thing.
Have a great time in Tampa. It feels weird to me that I'm not going.

Mike: I love your Barbie description. Do you know that to have the proportions that the real Barbie has - I would have to be 9 feet tall. Well, I'm only 5'5" so I guess my waist is a bit larger than hers and my boobs might not be as big (can't say!)

Anyway, your point about telling him is well taken and I've been thinking about it since last week. I did tell him about a dream I had where he didn't call and he just disappeared. Thought I made my point but he did it again on Monday (told me he fell asleep which I believe). I do think it needs to be addressed, but its not the same, talking about Rs with someone who has been in few and not experienced what I have. I just hate to sound too needy. I'll take it slow. Thanks for your input.

Jill: I'm glad you found the board too. Its a great place to share thoughts and feelings with others who understand. You are right - we've been burned by the liars and cheats but must remember - its about them - not the new guy.

I'm off for a week's vacation. I'll check back in next week.

Barb

qoe100,

I would continue to hang out with your MF if you both want to. I think male friends can be just as important as serious romances. Perhaps that's all you need right now.

Perhaps you will feel differently about him later, or maybe now, but why not just have fun with him? After all, you don't have to sleep with him.

Of course, a lot depends on how well he can handle just being friends. If he keeps hoping for more and you don't feel it, you may have to break things off.

Just my opinion...

rayanne

Quote:

A couple of times he has said "I'll call you on Monday" and then he doesn't. OK, in the scheme of things - how bad is that? Its the ONLY minor thing that has gone wrong, BUT...

Barb,
I have a close female friend that does that and it drives me crazy! Of course I'm not worrying about our friendship being over, but I've taked to her about it a few times.
She is also perpetually late. Just kinda decided to overlook it, as she has a heck of a lot more good points than bad.

However, I think if something like that bugs you, it can slowly erode a R. Perhaps you could say something like,"I know it's silly of me, but when you say you'll call and then don't I get worried about you." You don't really have to say it is the R you are worried about.

Frankly, I would rather have somebody not say they'll call than to tell me they will and then not.

Two times really isn't very many and Josh's probably on "guy time"

. It sounds like he may be working long hours at the moment. Know it's nerve-wracking, though.
He probably thinks about you and assumes you should know that.

Guys are just different.

rayanne

Ok, it's still me, but a slightly different user name, I had to re-register.

Anyway, I know exactly what you are talking about. I handled it this way. First, I said, you don't have to say you're going to call, but once you say it, you need to follow through and do it. That's just how I am. You don't have to offer, but once you do, I need to be able to count on you doing what you say you will.

In my current R, that he accepted that-- but he still gets all tied up at work. He'll say he'll call in a couple hours, then gets tied up. I've either learned to ignore it or just call him. Hey, I'm not a teenager, I can call if I want to talk to him. No biggie. It's just him, there are enough good things that he averages out just fine.

I am a bit late in this post, but I wanted to add my experience. After my D I had a somewhat easy time meeting guys. Unfortunately, they were the wrong guys. I was married for 16 years and had not dated much prior to that so I felt like I was just starting out. I found out rather quickly what losers there are out there (especially for newly divorced women - it is like they prey on us). My cousin, who was also divorced, told me she met some nice (and not so nice) guys through online dating. I was hesitate to do this for quite some time. Finally, I decided to just check it out. I found this nice looking guy who lived in my town so I decided to join so I could email him. He responded and we emailed for a few days. We decided to meet at a local restaurant for a drink one weekend and completely hit it off. He was also divorced and has an 8 year old daughter who lives in another state. That was almost two years ago and we have now been married for 9 months. I am sure this doesn't work for everyone, but at least online you can remain anonymous for a while. You can email each other to find out more about that person. Yes, they may not all tell the truth, but you have to really listen to the content of the email. It is like you can prescreen the guy before you even meet. People still laugh and are suprised when they ask how we met. I will say this, though. After being through infidelity and divorce, I am still feeling the effects. I worry that it will happen again, etc. It is quite a struggle, but at least my husband is understanding. My best friend went through the same thing as I did and she said it took several years with her second husband to feel completely comfortable. I guess we almost suffer from post traumatic stress disorder. Hopefully it won't take too long for all the wounds to heal. The problem in my situation is I am constantly having to deal with an unreasonable X because my son moved in with him last year. Now he is brainwashing him to blame me for everything also. My daughter got sick of my X's girlfriend and stopped seeing her father a year and a half ago. My X has made practically no attempt to reconcile with her either. Very sad to see a somewhat nice guy turn into this.

You know what? I've always heard that when you aren't looking, then you'll find "him". It could be true. I tried some of the online dating sites, with results ranging from funny to depressing and worse.

On the other hand, a totally unsuitable, totally not-my-type, totally inappropriate man ended up being a really good thing in my life. I wasn't looking for a R, nor was he. It's quite possible that I'm as bad a "match" for him on paper, as he is for me. But, we're having a great time.
Go figure.

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in such a long time but this title kinda caught my eye. This isnt a good post...maybe a what not to do post. Its been 3 years since my divorce and im still learning things. There are still afew familar names on here who think im such a nice guy....im not feeling to nice right now.

The last 2 women i have dated haven't turned out very well.
The 1st i was crazy about...she was really attractive...funny...outgoing...and she really liked me. She was also very high maintence...and i was the first guy she was with since her ex. After seeing me for a few months...she dropped me to play the field....which she has done quite well i hear. I felt that strong attraction to her....even though she wasn't my type...that spark you talk about.

The next girl i didnt feel that spark. She was a widower with 2 small kids. I really liked her...country girl...attractive...down to earth...and she also liked me.
She hadn't even dated in years...and after a while of getting to know each other she was taking the sex plunge...i guess i was more then happy to accomodate that.
Well after that started things just got to rolling to fast for me. She would talk of me moving in...her kids asked if iwas going to be there dad....her family had us getting married....all these things scared the crap out of me. We talked about it and she backed off. I did tell her that i wasn't her knight in shining armour...ready to swoop in and be the replacement...at the time they seemed so needy...and iwasn't ready for it.
Here's where i messed up....it just stayed like that...i was scared to get more involved....of all the people inthe world...i didnt want to hurt her or the kids. I have 2 of my own and am going through many problems there to begin with....i have been focused on that. She on the other hand really fell for me but knew she scared me....so she didnt really push after that.
So for more then a year...there we were....i didnt commit to anything...she didnt push...we kept each other at arms lenghth...went out on occasion...talked on the phone all the time...i didnt realize it...took itfor granted...but she was there for me through all the bad times with the problems with the ex. Sex was the constant through all this...that never stopped...its like the only thing that kept us coming back.

Well a while ago she stops calling(like i should be surprised) But this time i really missed her. I knew before i called that she had moved on...i didnt blame her. Its what she told me that has me at rock bottom. Holding her back....and me holding back all that time made her feel so small...like she meant nothing. I didn't do anything special...was scared to do nice things fearing it would bring her closer...what a jerk!. She told me it was easy for this new guy to better me....she has felt better with him in a month then she did the whole timewith me....that really made me feel terrible....and it should...and i deserve everyting i get.

What i learned is this...and its what i wanted you new daters out there to see. Im not halfassing things anymore....treat people the best you can...if you like each other then give it your all...if you give ityour all...and it doesn't work out...then atleast you can say you tried. We will never know what would have happened...it would have been nice to find out.

I got a headache...bet anyone that reads this has one too.

Sorry for the yucky post....thought maybe what i learned might help someone else.

Good luck guys....buster

Aw, Buster, I'm sorry for how things went. It's clear that you were scared to make things legit... and that is understandable. Up to a point... which for me would have been way less than a year. I think you get credit for being honest with her, about being scared to commit... but both of you must have known that over time, things had to get better or the arrangement would run it's course.

Still, I'm glad you shared your story. It probably will help me stay focused. (my current sitch is a R that feels really good, but it's technically too soon post D and we're both a little gunshy. Well sometimes a lot.) And, as cliche as it sounds, to not take things for granted... which is just another way of echoing your point, that you have to treat people in your life well, even when you have baggage, even when you're scared.

Sometimes it's just hard being a grown up, isn't it? I HATE having R talks, and I never ever want to go through another D. I just want things to magically work, and live happily ever after.

Something that i felt good about through all the time from things that happened before she left...through the seperation...then the divorce was that i did nothing wrong....didn't cheat...lie...decieve...i could look in the mirror and at least not regret my actions....i cant do that now...and it doesn't feel real well. I treated a great girl that had been through hell...like she didn't mean anything...all because of fear. Fear of rejection...of her getting hurt again if i didnt fall in love...i too have an immense fear of divorce again...dont want that divorced twice label.

You cant go on guided by fear....its a shame it took the mess im in now to learn this. This doesn't mean you jump in with both feet everytime you meet someone....but when you are with them...treat them with respect...do all the nice things...dont take them for granted and let the chips fall where they may. If things dont work out you can look in the mirror and say you gave it your best shot.

Back to more upbeat post....allready in progress...

be good...buster

Buster................How are you? I was just thinking about you. I was wondering where you went, where Apeman is, remembering our Gilligan Island story. lol Wondering how Dulcie is?

I can relate to some of your feelings. It's really sad what fear can do to you. My biggest fear is that I won't be able to open up my heart again, something I did so easily, so giving............. now it scares me.

Also I don't want to settle, I want those same feelings I used to have, I know that's a whole subject in itself.
But that's what I want again. I hope I'm not asking for to much.

Buster, don't be so hard on yourself. Just knowing what you did and learning by it says alot about the person you are. It's when you constantly repeat the behavior and don't learn from it, that's when you can beat yourself up. lol That's when it's a problem that should be addressed.

Well, I'm off to Tampa Friday, come join us, it will be great meeting all the friends from the BB. Just think about all the great discussions we could have.

Take care and don't be such a stranger.

Friend (MaryAnn) or was I Ginger????

A prince is the nice guy you probably rejected in high school, the one interested in marriage and who will treat you the way you deserve to be treated. The player, is the guy you dated or longed to date in high school. He�s the one who�s suave and sexy, with all the right moves, none of them putting your interests first. Here are six tips that will help you tell a prince from a player.

A prince calls when he says he will. A player has a long list of excuses as to why he couldn�t call.

A prince puts you first. A player puts everything but you first � work, golf, drinking, friends, you name it.

A prince wants to meet your family and friends and wants you to meet his (when he sees the relationship is moving forward). A player may take you out with his friends (or bring his friends along on your date, depending how you view it), even on the first date. Consider this a clear sign that dating you has little to do with building a relationship. As for family, don�t plan on meeting them.

A prince invests time in you � taking time to find out your favorite song, dessert, etc., a sign of his falling for you. A player puts forth little effort to really get to know you.

A prince is the one who will hand-deliver chicken soup when you�re sick. A player is the one who will be way too busy to see you when you�re sick because it won�t be any fun for him.

A prince will romance you slowly, bringing you a single flower or bouquet when the time is right, sending a romantic card, or going someplace fancy for dinner to celebrate something special. A player will romance you too quickly. He�s looking for a quick payoff.

Remember, tornadoes sweep in, wreak havoc, and disappear as quickly as they came. Slow and steady really does win the race!

Excellent list, Johanna! THANKS!!

Quote:

My biggest fear is that I won't be able to open up my heart again, something I did so easily, so giving............. now it scares me.

I feel this way too, Friend. I think it is a very fine line we walk when we decide to start a R after D!!

Quote:

My biggest fear is that I won't be able to open up my heart again, something I did so easily, so giving............. now it scares me.

Ditto... but let me expand. After 23 years with the wasband, he had done more good to/for me than anyone else I'd ever known... so that made him special. On the other hand, he'd done more bad to me than I'd ever allowed anyone else to.

In the latter part of the M (once I was totally aware I was not happy and never would be) I often wished it was more clear which was this panned out. I typically felt like it was about 49.5/51.5 in terms of good/bad-- and wished it was 70/30 or something more definitive.

After the D, I was pretty sure I would mess up future R's... either by putting up with too much (like I did in my M) or by going to the other extreme, and dumping someone for the first minor issue. (ie belching) I had no idea how to better prepare myself to "get it right".

Now, I'm seeing someone. There are some things that would have been bigger deals, in the context of my M; that just haven't been big deals for me. It's clear to me that there is more good than not, and it helps me keep the "not" in perspective. I haven't worried too much about my heart, like I thought I would. Part of this could be since now that I've survived the D, I can pretty much survive whatever happens to me. Might not like it, but I am confident it won't actually kill me.

He's the same way, after the horrible way his X treated him. We both know we have some baggage, some deprogramming, some healing... we talk about it, and cut ourselves and each other some slack. We're trying not to project our X's sins onto each other... it will take time. But we're each very different from the X's, so maybe we'll figure it out.

Hey Buster,
I'm feeling bad you are feeling so bad...but I realized how much you learned from all this, and that made me feel better. Forgive yourself. I hope your lady friend gets to find out how/why you 'let her go' so she doesn't think it had anything to do with her. And i think you hit the old nail on the head when you talked about how fear screws things up...My guess is that it was mostly fear that screwed up all our marriages in the first place. Fear first, then anger from the WAS. Fear of being vulnerable, fear of needing..and then anger for their needing us. Isn't it ironic?

Be that as it may, it sounds like you are now ready to find someone special and really commit to giving your all to the R. Good for you!
gd

Good thoughts. It sounds like you are taking it slow enough to recognize the dynamics of how our past hurts are still alive.

I like what you said about being careful not to project X on the new one or run at the slight problem. It is true fear probably helped us all get here but I'm learning that acceptance has a bit to do with it too. Nobody is going to be 100% perfect but we have to recognize what we can live with and what we can't. There are trade-offs in everything. Part of accepting though is identifying behaviors or traits which we don't want to accept, maybe like we did before. I've learned that I accepted and ignored a lot of stuff that I shouldn't have. Like accepeting that my WAH rarely had anything nice to say, to me or others. Not good.

You sound like you are moving on well. I hope I can get there.

Z

SC ~ It sounds like you have a very healthy attitude about your new R...good for you!!

Quote:

I haven't worried too much about my heart, like I thought I would. Part of this could be since now that I've survived the D, I can pretty much survive whatever happens to me. Might not like it, but I am confident it won't actually kill me.

This is a really good point...I will remind myself of that when I am ready to start a new R!!!

Hi all! I haven't been around for over a week and thought I'd just check in.

Rayanne: I think your advice is good. It hasn't happened again since 2 weeks ago but then there hasn't been too much opportunity. No phone service of any type at my Dad's cottage. We did speak while I was at my cottage. He was to call on Thurs but I went missing. Well, actually, I knew I was going to be unavailable to chat so I left him a message saying so and thought that was setting a good example rather than playing games and having him worry. I don't think 2 wrongs make a right and although its great to make them wonder - I really HATE these types of games.

Anyway, he called me the minute I got in the door on Friday night (he had just flown in as well) and I am heading off to Toronto today. We are going to an Indian restaurant and to see a movie. Great date!

Hope the sun is shining where you are!

Barb