Post Divorce Life...At least it�s Better then BD

Previous Thread:

Making sense of nightmares

Hey Juju,

I just saw the title of your new thread. Totally how I am feeling right now.

Originally Posted by Twofeet

I just saw the title of your new thread. Totally how I am feeling right now.

Got to agree, it's a very true title and I'd say at least for me it's a whole lot better than BD - a whole lot!

Before your last thread ended and locked there was a great discussion about you and current BF. Good or bad or whatever, the more I read, the more I can see at least a decent portion of myself in him. That could be good for you in helping to figure him out. The thing is, I'm not sure you guys are a match.

One of the best comments I remember reading was from someone who said, he's not going to change and you either can accept him as he is or not. That is so true. I can tell you I've mellowed a whole lot - Yeah imagine that, the version you guys are all getting of me is a MELLOWED version of who you would have gotten 20 years ago. I let way more things go but I still am who I am and am not likely to change.

What you can change is you. What jumped out is your very honest and self-aware comment of if he tells you to do something you do the opposite just to spite him. Interesting that my exW used to do this as well. She too knew that what I had said likely had merit yet... That's not good for you. You are better than that JuJu. I think part of the problem though is you can't beat him in a debate so this is how you try to beat him - it's very passive-aggressive.

It may well be that you have more to work on with yourself. After all, that's the only person you really have any control over. You did get involved rather quickly with this guy. There might be more to that than you realize. Even now, you seem to be more comfortable being in an R with someone who might be the wrong guy than in no R at all. Yet, from everything I can tell, you'd be just fine by yourself. It's not like you need this guy. I do think it's great that you are taking your time with deciding. However, what I'd really encourage you to do is to have more of these difficult talks with him. Doing so will help you to decide much easier. If you pick a topic even once a week (a couple times a week would be better) and sit down and talk about it for 30 minutes - then let it go. Agree to discus for 30 minutes and then go do something fun. It can be anything - finances, raising children, drug use, religion, abortion - whatever. Even lighter topics could be okay - like music, movies, food, vacation spots. I think if you did this, you'd either see, wow, we have a lot in common, or you'd see, yep, this guy is just not for me.

I very strongly encourage you to consider this. I'm betting even the suggestion makes your stomach crawl but pushing yourself will help you to grow and also help you decide.

In the end, if he is like me, I can totally assure you he is not trying to be a jerk. He's not playing games or any of it. It's just who he is. And who he and I are, just may not mesh with a personality that needs a like of positive and a lot of reassurance. It's okay to need those things - you just won't get them, at least in the quantity you require, from guys like us. It's not in our nature. For me, I know that. I know I need a strong woman with high self-asteme who is willing to call me on my crap. When called, I respond very well. I don't do well with subtle - most guys don't. You need to be very clear, very direct and do it right away or at least as soon as possible. Waiting days, weeks or months will only feel like you are bombarding with months of stuff all at once.

My last comment is this... if you do decide to end things, you did not fail. Don't take this like a D. You dated someone and are finding they may not be a long term match. That is not failure - in fact in many ways it's success. The only thing worse than being in a bad R for 2 years is being in a bad R for 2 years and 1 day. (yes I totally stole that from a national expert - as I do much of my stuff - but it makes great sense.)

Actually yes I�m seeing some similarities. I�m not saying this to be rude, cause I do enjoy your posts and you do point some good stuff out Don. But you call people out on everything! You notice everything and call people out on it. Now on a forum it�s great. It sparks debate. It�s entertaining . Most of us that post on here have a bit of an obsessive personality and we enjoy dissecting ourselves and others. We are anonymous posters so for the most of us little offense is taken.

But IRL to have someone point everything out that I�m not doing right is exhausting. I�m just trying to share an event or feeling or frustration with him and he�s pointing out something. When Ginger was talking about her daughter, I think she was just telling a story. But you found something to correct her on. That�s exactly what I feel like I am going through. Now it was a good point for me cause my son does the same thing but when he does that constantly it makes me feel critiqued . Like doesn�t he realize all the 100 other things I have to contend with? Doesn�t he realize that sometimes I just have to let things slide and pick my battles. It doesn�t feel helpful. It feels adversarial.

Now there was only 1 time that he was 100 percent right and I did the opposite. But that was after a lot of other debates that sure I could see his point, but I think my point was better for my situation. I just start to feel like I want peace not a constant banter over small things. I have been through a lot of trauma and arguing - with my ex, with my lawyers that were overcharging me, with my sons school district. I don�t want to argue about things like who to ask for directions from or which clothing rack I look at or whether I�m walking in a straight line or whether my son should be on meds or whether I brag too much about my son and my parenting . I just want peace. He feels like A.I. want things sugar coated and that I say I want honesty but can�t really handle it. But just cause it�s his honest opinion doesn�t make it truth or real either.

I don�t think he�s a bad person. I just think he�s coming at me with too many critiques and not enough good stuff. He�s my boy friend, not a poster on a forum. It feels like he�s creating drama.
Your right. I have no issues with being alone. I actually do better when I�m alone. But I do feel bad and o don�t understand why. I just don�t feel like I�m getting anything great out of this relationship any more to warrant the criticism

But I�m also wondering if I am particularly hypersensitive or if he has been out of line. I am a fair person

So during a texting conversation, STBX bf made a comment about how I needed to be more humble regarding my parenting skills and son. He went on to say how I should know I am a great mom and should not need to tell others how great me and my son are doing and that I should not need accolades from others. So it was like a criticism mixed in a compliment or vice verse.

It made me mad. His wording was �the issue her is lack of parental umuility�. I just felt like, who says that to someone?

He prides himself on his honesty and told me he does not like to sugar coat. he sees absolutely nothing offensive to a comment like that.

I talk about my son and my parenting in a very positive way. It�s true...

1. I struggled so much with my son when he was younger and I am really proud at how great things are going now. I was taking him to special OTs 3 x a week in rush hour traffic - it could easily take 45minutes to an hour to get him to these places. It was tons of wear and tear and mileage on my car. We were both exhausted. But my son is now able to not only join karate but he�s in the middle of the other kids in terms of coordination and skill. That is huge for us. I make it known about his academic skills because his behavior and social skills and physical skills were so under developed. I visited specialists and read a lot and made sure I was proactive with the school. I did not wait for them to come to me. I set things up myself and made sure they knew his strengths and weaknesses and how he excels from day 1.

I did all this while I was going through a divorce and dealing with corrupt lawyers and finding out my ex was a secret addict and depleting marital funds for years.

2. I think that when it comes to children, lots of positive reinforcement is the way to go. Consequences didn�t work for us. Love and positive reinforcement did. So even when my son is not in my presence I speak positively and the negative stuff is said with humor. I know that his authoritarian approach doesn�t work and I know meds didn�t work cause we tried it already. These are 2 things he debated with me over.

That comment about my lack of humility was meant to undermine all that. it didn�t undermine it for me. I do know my worth as a mom. but makes me mad that my partner would attempt to undermine.

That shows who he is not who I am and that�s what I do not like. I am not insecure or suffer from low self esteem. I am not hyper sensitive to feedback or jokes made in good humor.

I am sensitive to my boy friend not being a kind person. That he�s incapable of recognizing something I value and capable of being so insensitive about it. I�m sensitive to him being an a$$hole and not realizing it. I would never comment poorly on a car he worked hard to rebuild. And I certainly would not tell him he lacks humility if he was to talk about how much work he put into that car and how nicely it runs. That would be rude. that would not be constructive or honest.

I want to end things today but i have so many errands to run. I avoided him this weekend so I�m sure he�s pretty aware.

Quote

I�m sensitive to him being an a$$hole and not realizing it.

Bingo!!!!!

Also, he's a major league gaslighter.

Your instincts have been right all along.

Kindness is now priority number one for me in any future dates.

With all due respect, there is a difference between being honest and being an a$$. You can be honest with someone and �not sugar coat� things without being a complete a$$hat. I personally discount it when men tell me they don�t sugar coat things because in my experience that translates to �im going to say whatever I want and I don�t give a d@mn if it hurts your feelings or not.� It has also been my experience with sugar coaters that while they are fine with saying whatever to someone, if someone talks to them without sugar coating, they get all pissed off and offended. Don�t fish it out if you can�t take it!

Having said all that, juju, I�m so sorry you are having to deal with all this. I admire your strength, your honesty, and most of all your mothering skills. I think it�s great that you put a positive spin on things. If more parents patented the way you do, schools would be a better place for everyone. Big hugs to you and positive vibes coming your way. Also, kudos for not correcting his grammar on his spelling of humility. I would�ve been tempted to be all over him about that. Lol

Sorry for the typos in my post....I�m on my phone and have fat thumbs but hopefully you get the gyst. A$$holes = bad, sugar coating = not bad, if tempered with common sense,

Thank you kml and Dawn...he spelled humility correctly. I did not because I am typing from my phone and for some reason, I cannot get these forums to Zoom in correctly, so the print is super small.

My friend thought that perhaps, guys do not like to hear about someone else�s kid as much. it�s a topic that bores them. He was ok listening to the negatives because it offered him a way to problem solve, but me talking about my son became too much for him? And perhaps I should not do that it the future. These guys are not his dad. At the same time, my son is basically my life so it�s easy for me to go there in conversation after conversation.

His delivery is bad. I do not know if his intent is. He says it is not. But I just do not want to be around him anymore.
I have been depressed and unhappy. I read about you and Ginger and Focus� relationships and I realize that mine is not making me feel that way at all. There was not anything super great about our relationship to balance out his poor delivery or the banter that he seeks.

It�s getting later in the day and my son will be here soon and I still haven�t done it. It�s obvious for both of us at this point. But I know it has to be done in person.

Your instincts are correct. This is not a good guy who just happens to be a little blunt. This is a guy who is gaslighting you, who slips a jab into a pseudo compliment, and who doesn't seem capable of looking at himself. And if a guy has no interest in hearing you talk about your kid he's not a candidate to be his stepfather.

I wouldn't go on and on about my kids on a first date but as long as you've been dating, he should be interested because in your life and that in life's your child.

"He should be interested in your life and your child is an important part of your life"

Btw my crazy ex boyfriend had some trouble relating to my Aspergers son at first, then someone wisely told him if he loved me, he needed to love my family. He made the effort and they ended up friends. He may have been crazy and a bit of a sociopath but he was good to my family always.

Ugh. Things are over. I�m going to just take some time and heal. I feel horrible and left feeling like I was overly sensitive and unrealistic about relationships and like I was a poor communicator. I feel like I was unfair to him. like I misunderstood his comments and intent. I Feel like I�m doing wrong by a guy that is good at heart.

But I know if I end up back, I will probably feel like this again and it will repeat itself into another cycle. My friends that met him thinks it�s a way to make it look like my fault for the break up and that everybody does that and that�s the reason people often get back together

I just read an article about hyper sensitive people...

And it could have been written by me.

With ex bf, it was not the Jab or the statement being made. My friends are all pretty blunt people. I have never been upset or taken to heart any comments written here.

It�s the emotion behind his jabs that�s i am responding to. Those emotions were anger and impatience for me. And that�s exactly what they were. The airport story, the shopping story.

He's still gaslighting you! HE'S not to blame for anything, you're just too sensitive etc. etc. If he WASNT a gaslighter, his response would be something like "gee, I had no idea I was affecting you that way, can we go to counseling to work this out?"
Instead his response is that you're overly sensitive.
I believe your instincts are correct about him.

Sorry J......I would never criticize the parenting skills of anyone that I dated nor ever say anything about their child unless I was directly asked for my opinion. Even then I would tread very lightly as it is one thing for the parent to make comments but completely different for me to do so. I think you made the right choice. Hang in there!

Sorry things went this way Juju. You handled the situation like a boss. I am a perfectionist and second guess myself quite a bit because you can never be SURE, ya know? But I've learned that while I don't often feel sure of myself, when I DO feel sure about something in my gut, it's usually best to act on it. You never know something for sure. Only enough to make decisions and act. And my gut is sure that your gut is right on this one. Hang in.

Thank you KML, TBSAKA, and Zues (would love an update)

This has been hard. I have been crying a lot lately. it�s not like there were all bad qualities in him and I understand you guys are hearing my version of events. Maybe he was gaslighting. maybe that�s just how I am describing it, because obviously I need to feel I did the right thing and was justified? Or maybe not.

His point of view was that he says things without malintent. That he is trying to help with his advice. And that I hold everything in and throw it at him after 8 months and that I waited till stage 5 to bring this up instead of stage 3.

Each incident that occurred, I did not have a response for him.

I think I snapped and then sulked a bit and stored it up. He did not think these incidents were anything big. And the incidents were based on jabs directed at me. The jabs don�t bother me if done with humor. But like I said, there was anger and impatience behind his jabs and that�s what bothered me. I�m positive of this.

My thought was that, we don�t see each other that often and had only been dating a year, so to feel anger and impatience towards me now is not a good sign. In general He yells a lot and gets angry a lot (not at me. At things I view as little though like the dogs or dishes not being done) He says he is never that angry. That expressed emotion was a lot for me though.

Someone else might have responded to the jabs with humor, or rolled their eyes and said something and just forgot about it and moved on. Because that�s life. That�s reality. It�s accepting people�s flaws or mistakes. it�s being familiar and intimate with someone maybe?

But I couldn�t do that. it bothered me. I felt like he was causing conflict and drama when there didn�t need to be any. I felt like he was disrespecting me. It felt like it was too much of what you get in a 15 year relationship when you live with person and have little kids running around and your just exhausted. Not what you get when that date or outing is supposed to be your nice time out away. If that makes any sense.

He feels like I�m just looking for someone that will always agree with me and just keep quiet.

I think maybe he put me into 6 year relationship zone too early without building enough of that good feeling - honeymoon portion. We didn�t have enough history to be at that level. I think for him, it was settled. he loved me. Would deal with my flaws and wanted investment. Figures you can�t have it all and accepts to be in a relationship.

There are definitely going to be somethings I really miss and worry I will not find in someone else. I did love him. I will really miss his daughter.

I think something else that�s hard is being on the other side of things. It�s tough cause I�m seeing how my ex must have felt about me. He never voiced his issues with me just like I never did with bf. I�m experiencing what it feels like to be the leaver.

Ugh.. this just really [censored]. It�s really hard.

Well jabs arent good and storing it up isn't good either. If someone jabs at you in a joking manner generally they are serious about it and really it is more than a joke. That said even if you would have communicated more clearly with him when it was a stage 3 would he be any different? I am not a yeller nor a screamer but I do tend to hold things in as well and also sacrifice my own feelings for someone else.

I dont think you want someone to always agree with you but maybe be a little more diplomatic and open to hearing/understanding your way of doing things? Also maybe only offering advice or comments when solicited?

Originally Posted by TBSakaJ9

I would never criticize the parenting skills of anyone that I dated nor ever say anything about their child unless I was directly asked for my opinion.

Never? Really? Never? So if after you start doing things with doctor and her son, son interrupts her while she is talking to you and you see her haul off and smack him in the head so hard he cries or draws blood, you won't say anything? If the three of you go to a restaurant and you see her son take cash tips off of a table and put it in his pocket - you won't call it to her attention? What about if she just shrugs and says "ah he's just a kid." I mean, my point is, I don't think to never say anything or never criticizing is the answer either - is it?

My real point of posting, however, is to say JuJu I can tell how difficult this is for you and how much you really are willing to look at it - at least with us. It also reminds me how very difficult all of this is - likely yet another part of why I'm hesitant. I would not want to be either the dumper or the dumpee. I think you are trying to look at all sides here and you are so correct, there always are two sides and we are only seeing one. He might have a very different viewpoint in all of this. Maybe he is gaslighting - maybe he is not. Maybe he is being critical, maybe he is not. Maybe you are being too sensitive and really don't want to hear anything negative, maybe you are not.

But let's say, both of you are... he is critical and blurts out what comes to mind with little filter, and you don't want to hear circumcision, believe in positive feedback over discipline and don't want either in your life. Let's say that is the case for both of you. If it is (and I think I'm at least more correct than not in this) the two of you are just not a good match. He needs someone that will ignore him or give him his crap right back and you need someone who is going to be your number one supporter and cheerleader. That's okay - for both of you - you are just not each other's match.

In the end, I don't think he is a bad guy, he's just not for you. I think you need someone who is going to be very supportive - kinda a "yes dear" type of guy. And there is really nothing wrong with that either - it's just not this guy. I think you need to keep this in mind with the next guy. I think you focused so much on who is not your ex that these other things were both unknown and overlooked. Now you know. You need a really positive guy that will let you do things your way and at least not criticize it but hopefully praise it. That's just not him.

Don't beat yourself up over it all. Don't blame yourself. You will likely start to feel better over the next couple of weeks. More importantly, you have learned a lot over this past year. You are so much better off in not trying to continue with someone that may not be your ultimate long term match. There is nothing at all wrong in that - in fact, I so wish more people had the guts to do it. I am very impressed by how you have handled all of this and that you were able to see it through - VERY IMPRESSED.

Quote

he is critical and blurts out what comes to mind with little filter, and you don't want to hear circumcision,

Hahaha DonH, this goes into the Autocorrect Hall of Fame

Thanks Don

He is not a bad guy. He would have been really really loyal, like loyal through thick and thin. Which is a quality on the top of my list. I felt safe with him in that respect. I too pride myself as being loyal and a part of me feels bad that I was not like that with him. He was ok with my flaws and issues and having a young child.

I have only been in 2 serious relationships prior - my ex husband (you guys know the story) and a super jealous, controlling cheater when I was in college. With them it�s more black and white. They did some serious shi!t and I never broke things off with them. This guy did not do anything seriously wrong. He didn�t cheat, he didn�t lie, he did not physically assault me. So this is not black and white.

I hate the idea of discarding people out of my life. It�s elective death and mourning. It feels bad. And I�m really depressed. I kind of wish I had went in to this screening better. I ignored this stuff and focused on the positives and then eventually the negatives go to be too much for me to want to be around. But I do love him.

I think my story is an example of why you shouldn�t exclusively date and get serious immediately post DB.

Well dh the examples you gave were pretty extreme but if something like that did happen I would have a conversation with her when the kid was not around and just end it.

Juju your two serious relationships were abusive. Maybe that's why you missed the red flags with this guy - it felt familiar, and his type of controlling behavior at least was less than previous relationships.

Don't feel bad about ending it - this is what dating is for, to get to know the person and find out if you're compatible. You weren't.

He's a grown man, not a 16 year old boy. He can handle the disappointment of a dating relationship not working out. Don't make yourself responsible for his feelings. You are STILL putting more effort into this relationship even when you're broken up!

You had every right to make this decision and your instincts are right. He's a big boy and can handle it.

As I've pointed out earlier, he didn't own his part of this relationship not working. Stop second guessing yourself.

I am sorry Juju you have been so upset. I agree with both don and kml. You sure didn't reflex break up with the guy. You thought it out, you gave him the benefit of the doubt, you tried to figure out ways to make it work. But in the end, I do agree with KML. He is abusive in a sense. He was a gaslighter big time. You did the absolute right thing for yourself.

You are an absolute fantastic mom. Never should anyone, especially someone you trust and love ever make you doubt that, criticize, or stop you from being proud of yourself and son. I think he might secretly doubt himself as a father. A partner should be someone you can share your love and pride of your kids with.

As far as never criticizing anyone's parenting? I wouldn't unless it was for extreme reasons like the ones Don used as an example. Something harmful, yes. Criticizing really good parenting? No way. I remember FF criticized my parenting, A non-parent, A young non-parent who thinks they all have it figured out before they become one. That put a bad taste in my mouth. Dating someone who isn't your kids parent is hard. When they come in later, they don't know all you have been through, the child's sensitivities, their quirks, which battles you choose. When my daughter was extra bratty right after she came back from her dad's, i cut her some slack. The transition was rough on her. I got that criticized and did not like it.

Regardless, this is a sad time, and I think you will be starting to feel better soon, even relieved. I do think you focused so much on how he was the opposite of you ex, that you thought he had to be a perfect fit. It takes a heck of a lot more than them being the opposite of our ex's. I appreciate that M is totally calm, empathetic and laid back, unlike my ex, but that doesn't make him the perfect partner. It's a trait I regard highly and is very important to me. Just in a human being and not because he is opposite of my ex.

One thing I would love to see for you (and for myself, actually) is to stop doubting yourself so much. I am going to post about that in my thread, because I am equally guilty, But we need to really trust ourselves a whole lot more.

I swear, one of these days we are getting together!

Oh, and P.S>, I caught the circumcision comment too and I couldn't stop laughing. I am the queen of autocorrect mistakes, but that one takes the cake!

Don - I am gonna consider putting in my next OLD profile "Looking for the Yes Dear Type"...

KML - He was over the top. It was not me. His comments were not just nicely stated opinions. They were rude and insulting. I do appreciate honesty. I am not looking for someone to agree with me on everything. But there is also a way to say things to people. I

Ginger - We definitely have to get together! Maybe later this spring? Its an easy train ride for both of us. I agree with you about not trusting myself.

Regarding commenting on another's parenting... Its a sensitive topic. What Ginger said all the way. Sometimes kids sense something askew when meeting a new boyfriend or girlfriend - and they act out - become attention seeking, take advantage of their parent whom they can tell is trying to make a good impression on a new person. One day of your kid being bratty, does not indicate that someone is slack in their parenting. Or not raising their children well.
It is easy for someone that is not there every day to judge. I personally, do not want to feel judged.

Now there is a way to go about it if you are a step parent or living with the family or an intimate partner and you feel that you have advise that might help. You really do need a tribe to raise a child. I think Dawn has it mastered. But I think the key is that the person making the suggestion really should love your kid first before they say something. It is obvious that Dawns suggestions have been made out of love for her kids. Her suggestions have been made with sensitivity and thought and on her background in education and motivated by love.

BF was debating with me because I chose to not put my son on meds. There is no debate. Its my decision and I made that decision based on our experience with meds and based on my sons improvements without the meds ( his argument was made off of what worked for his child). There was another debate over a surgery that was not even recommended by the doctors - just an option for my son. Ex BF was pro surgery - yet he has no medical background. He was arguing how my son will get made fun of when hes older if we do not get this surgery. I honestly felt like he did not know what the hell he was talking about and was basing his argument off of god knows what but not on the facts or research or data. I started to feel like his advise was more ego driven, not really thought out in a way that was tailored to the individual. I felt like he was just trying to assert authority over a child's best interest And that's when I started to dismiss even the potentially good advice. And here is the other issue, I never asked him for his opinion in those cases.

Now if the child is interrupting or being rude to the boyfriend or girlfriend on a personal level it is OK to state your boundaries..."I am talking. Can you please wait your turn" is acceptable if the other parent did not say anything (sometimes we just tune out and I know I am not on top of everything) or if you see the kid about to put a bottle cap in their mouths - please by all means! But different parents have different rules and its best like Joseph said - to maybe ask the parent privately instead of correcting the kid... Like "hey, is it ok if your son is climbing on the wall like that. I see he is scraping up his sneakers" and I could respond with either "good point, Son get the hell off that wall!" or "nah, its ok. I intentionally put him in his old sneakers so he could climb and play and get some energy out". Don't just call out to the kid "Get off that wall, your ruining your sneakers" when you are the boyfriend or girlfriend. That is making assumptions and establishing an authoritarian role you have not been given yet. (yes BF did just that - and I had to cut in, no its ok. Hes allowed. And then he debated with me about ruining clothing articles and I had to explain I do not spend a lot of money on quality clothes for my son cause I know hes a wild beast and my priority is letting him just get his energy out and thats not a battle to pick with a hyperactive kid)

I think leave the correcting and disciplining up to the parent until you have connected with the is child better. And observing the rules and parenting style before you inflict your own is crucial as well.

Also- ginger My son gets bratty and emotional and snotty when he comes back from his dads as well. He usually has to sit and watch tv and I sit next to him and say little.

J.....I agree with everything you just said. Some people just can't keep their mouths shut and think they know everything or at minimum have an opinion. I am making an assumption here but I assume he never did anything wrong correct?

So as the days go on, I am really confident that I made the right decision. I do feel depressed and low energy and even a bit sick. But I can�t say that I think we would work as a couple.

I do feel bad about myself though. I feel old. The demand at work recently exploded and we have a bunch of new hires that are all starting their lives.. getting married, buying homes, getting ready to have kids, or even dating to find someone to start a life and family. The other group of coworkers all have spouses and kids.

I just feel old. And pathetic.

Oh girl, who put that negative voice in your head????
Would you REALLY want to go back to being young and dumb in your 20's???
You're a vibrant woman at the peak of your powers - start acting like it! Stop comparing yourself to others and start enjoying your life. I know single motherhood is hard, but how about putting a little more focus on making or spending time with good friends.

Ok. Ok. You are right. I have went through some really hard a$$ experiences that have certainly given me greater insight, empathy, and understanding for people. I can relate to others better. I see through some people much better as well.

I said Earlier I was ok being alone. But I don�t think that�s true. I think I was so unhappy with ex bf, I would rather be alone then continue on with him. My brother came to visit with his wife and they have a really really great relationship despite hardships. I would like a healthy relationship. I see that it�s possible. They both had a lot of things in common and maybe that helped them stay bonded and attracted for longer. Both liked dancing and hiking. And my brother is more of a quirky hipster that she had fun with.

Someone told me that the only man in my life should be my son right now. I don�t necessarily think that�s healthy either. They did tell me I need to date myself and that I need to know myself better so I know what I want.

I think I�m taking a bit of a break. I need to get back into exercise, work on setting up a little part time niche business I have had in the back of my head for a while. I do want to date again though eventually.

I think I will try to look for someone that has more in common with me next time around. Maybe someone that is a bit more active and maybe more young at heart would work better. Ex husband and ex bf were both home bodies
And for them going on a small walk with me was a compromise. Someone that already likes to explore and see new things might be a better fit. Someone that enjoys spending time with me and my son would be ideal. Someone that can just connect and joy feel the need to establish some weird authoritarian role from the 1950s.

My love languages are verbal affirmations and time spent... so maybe I�m going for the wrong guys

Hey juju - I am on the Newcomer board but I was surfing over here to get a preview of things because I will probably be over here full-time pretty soon....anyway I read your thread and thought I might pass along a few thoughts because your XBF has some similar qualities to my STBXW and your exhaustion due to the negativity and criticism is exactly what I have been going through for 6 YEARS. On my journey I have found the following to be true:

People that describe themselves as "brutally honest" are often more about being brutal than honest. They "tell it like it is." The don't "sugarcoat" things. Basically they give themselves carte blanche to say just about anything without repercussions, because hey, they're just being honest, right? And if you can't handle it, you're "too sensitive" or "butthurt" as my W would say. It's BS. They have a problem - it's them not you. For them there is no line between being candid and being a rude a$$hole. And they are absolved of all responsibility for their speech, it's just "who they are". It's BS - did I say that already?

The fact that your XBF had a lot of great qualities is not enough to overcome the toxic nature of criticism in a R. There is a very well known researcher who in 30+ years of studies has clearly found that when someone harshly criticizes their significant other and it becomes a habit, its begins a toxic chain reaction that will almost certainly kill the R. No one likes to be criticized - "gee, thank you so much for educating me on my flaws, please tell me more!". Right. Criticism leads to defensiveness, naturally, and the building of resentment and contempt, and then it's game over for the R.

My STBXW has a lot of great qualities, probably 90+% good stuff, but the nasty tone of her criticism, the attacks, the snide and sarcastic BS, is highly concentrated toxic stuff was enough to drive me away and shut me down. She can wreck an entire evening with a few seconds of toxic BS. And often these people can just move on within minutes and act as if nothing happened or nothing is wrong. It's weird.

So I feel you on your BF sitch. I stuck it out for YEARS because I had very young children. I stood up for myself every single time the criticism was fired off at me, but it is exhausting. I would actually say to my W "are you trying to make me feel bad about myself?" and "it's not necessarily what you're saying, it's how you are saying it" and "do you think it's right for a spouse speak like that? where did you get that idea?". And of course from W I got the "i'm just blunt, I don't sugarcoat things" BS routine in response.

Sorry for the semi-rant but I just wanted you to know I have lived that life and I can relate, it's effing draining beyond belief, it's very likely not your fault, you're probably not "hypersensitive", you just got linked up with a guy who can't control himself and drawn a line between honesty and a$$holery. Best of luck to you in your journey, beautiful clear days lay ahead.

Thanks for posting Gekko. Your right. I did start to feel like I was on defensive and then I just stopped bringing him around with me cause I did not want to worry about being put in that position. And his criticisms were over really small, stupid things that he wrote off as innocent jabs at humor...

He was meeting my friend for the first time and he had to make fun of me because I did not include enough cups in the picnic basket I had worked hard to prepare. It went beyond a �hey is that enough cups� it was more like a �seriously. What? are we all gonna share a cup that you pass around ?! Haha. Get more cups. What are you thinking. Why would you just pack these?� But he was dead wrong as the drinks were all individual cans and bottles and I was only bringing the cups just in case. It was just annoying that he wanted to constantly banter about every thing. Especially calling me out in front of friends he never met. I could have argued and got real nasty, but I didn�t want to because it was all my friends and I didn�t want him to feel bad or ganged up on. But I was really annoyed.

But here�s something I started to notice. He only did these things when we were out places. When we were in his house everything was fin. And they were in places that there was an unknown. I actually think it was a form of anxiety. I have a sense of humor. I really do not get super offended at things....

The jabs were not funny. There was anger and Impatience behind each comment. That�s what upset me. He was losing his temper with me over things that were really minuscule and done in a way to take the discomfort off of him and on to me. That�s what I think anyway. But it got to the point where I was thinking, �I�m not gonna invite him cause parking can be tough at that place and if I miss a parking spot and have to drive around he�s gonna start harassing me�
Seriously. Who can live like that???

My ex husband told me I was critical and negative and verbally abusive. I cringe at the thought that I could have been like ex boyfriend. If that�s the case, this is my Karma. But with my ex husband the things I complained about was more about his sleeping till 3 and money and him being late. I didn�t make jabs like that over small things. But I don�t know if ex was gaslighting me..perhaps doing things he knew I would complain about and then using it as an excuse to break up with me or if so was really as bad as ex bf to him.

Originally Posted by JujuB

My ex husband told me I was critical and negative and verbally abusive. I cringe at the thought that I could have been like ex boyfriend. If that�s the case, this is my Karma. But with my ex husband the things I complained about was more about his sleeping till 3 and money and him being late. I didn�t make jabs like that over small things. But I don�t know if ex was gaslighting me..perhaps doing things he knew I would complain about and then using it as an excuse to break up with me or if so was really as bad as ex bf to him.

Hmmmmm so being late was worthy of criticism but not packing enough cups or driving habits are not? I sort of see them as at the same level. Not trying to be critical and I do not think you are getting carma back but have to careful of thinking it's okay to be critical when it's things that matter to you. Perhaps the cups mattered as much to him as being late mattered to you? Do you see what I mean?

Now, him complaining so he had a reason to break up with you. Where did that come from? Do you think he wanted to break up with you? You must, otherwise why did you say that? What makes you think he wanted to break up with you?

What I'm really curious about is, have you heard from him at all? I don't know why but I would think that you would by now. Have you? If not, that might make me consider he might be okay that this has ended and perhaps he was maybe picky so you'd break up with him. Perhaps thats more of what you meant?

Hey don -I�m home sick today and I�m now taking a trip down memory lane.

My ex�s lateness was beyond the norm. It was not someone that was just 15 min late. Here are some examples.

I remember how early in our dating history on we almost missed a flight to the Caribbean. He has trouble waking up in the mornings (alarms would blare for hours) and we didn�t live together and I kept calling him and calling him cause he was so late. His friend had stayed the night supposedly to help him wake up for this early flight. But his friend slept through the alarms too. Almost missing the flight put me on edge the whole vacation.

Another example is my wedding shower. My mom wanted to throw a surprise wedding shower for me at this very expensive venue. My ex got me there over an hour late. I missed the cocktail hour and my mom was so upset because she put so much work and money into it. . I remember prior to the shower, he had us stop at a bank so I could take money out to lend him for his luxury car (which I disagreed with cause we were spending money on a wedding he wanted - I did not) God this was such a red flag - but I was used to this at that time and it just didn�t register.

My ex was 2 hours late to my sons birthday party. We were having a barbecue at a local park. My parents had helped me pack all the stuff, make everything, set up and bring it over and my mom helped watch my son. My ex slept in late. All I asked him to do was pick up the cake. He left to get the cake and I have no idea why it took so long. Me and my dad were waiting with all the stuff at the park and I was calling up guests and my mom to tell them to come later. Ex had all the barbecue gear. Ex got mad at me for getting mad at him. He acted like I was a nag and had no right to be mad at him for this.

My ex was invited to a fishing trip by my brother. (I didn�t go) my brother said they were trying to stall to get the charter boat to not leave without ex. He was so embarassed and annoyed.

He would get to work after 12 usually. His bosses would get upset but over looked it cause he took on their responsibilities. He�s smart, so maybe he knew how to do things for them that they needed. But he missed lots of meetings and it was a problem.

I did not mean my ex boyfriend complaining cause he wanted to break up. I meant my ex husband doing things like not coming home so that I would complain and he could say I was nagging and abusive and critical. BD happened cause he told me I used his dads death to instill guilt and I felt so bad about that for so long. It was Father�s Day. My son thought he was going out with his dad. My ex slept all morning and then went to visit his dads grave with his mother. I took son to the park and my son was 4 and crying cause he thought I left without his dad. My ex did not get to the park till 5 30 pm at which point we were leaving. I told my ex �your dad was a generous man. He would have rather you spent the day with your son� My ex told me that was the cruelest thing any one ever said to him. That I was using his dads death to inflict guilt. And I was verbally abusive and critical and he was moving out....

Btw he stayed with us in my parents house for a few weeks because he did not want to move back in with his mom cause she was too stressed cause his grandmother had died and he didn�t want to be around her. When my mom heard that... she packed all his stuff for him in a box. Which pissed him off cause he didn�t like people touching his stuff. (I told him she thought she was helping)

Now regarding ex boyfriend - I don�t think he was critical of me because he wanted to break up. He was like that with his daughter too and The two of them would engage in a banter and yelling matches. It was their norm (try to imagine an old school Italian family in a movie that takes place in the 1950s or perhaps George costanzas parents from Seinfeld) , but something I just couldn�t cope with. I think his jabs and criticism stem more from anxiety and an anger issue more then anything.

One of the things that made me feel safe with ex bf is that he�s not the type to break things off. Like I know if I had gotten sick or old or needed surgery or gained weight he would be ok with that. As long as someone met a certain criteria, he would make it work. Almost like an arranged marriage. There�s safety to that, but it certainly did not make me feel good. I probably could have been anyone that wasn�t a complete shmuck and he would be ok with that. Now perhaps, he stopped putting in effort because he subconsciously wanted to end things. That I could understand.

But he�s very sensitive to someone ending things with him. He felt abandoned by many of his exes and he said once someone leaves him that�s it. He�s done. So I know he would never fight for this relationship, once I told him I wanted to be myself. He did tell me that he didn�t have to voice his opinion about my son and that he could learn how to adapt to me. But it did not feel right. It felt like we were walking on egg shells. Me to not have someone criticize, him to not have someone end a relationship.

He won�t call to try to reestablish a relationship. If I wanted to go back to him, he wouldn�t have that either. He said one of his exes tried and he just felt too hurt and abandoned to give it a go. . To be honest, If someone broke things off with me at this point, I would be the same way. My pride would be wounded and after what I went through with ex, I would just move on. So I get it.

And I just do not think we will work out. He is friends with his exes. So maybe that�s a possibility. But we did not date as long either. I don�t think he�s a bad person. I would be happy for him if he met someone nice. I think he is going to have a hard time though with women if he continues to act the way he�s acted with me. Or perhaps he will do Better with a gruffer more masculine female who likes that type of arguing - or maybe a woman that will tell him exactly what she wants.

Because of my history with my ex, I�m not comfortable telling a guy what I want. He left me because I expressed anger about rude things he was doing. And that�s something I have to feel more confident about with future guys.

That made much more sense now JuJu - much more. Of course, there are always two sides to every sitch - and his might be far different. For example you "almost" missed a flight - but you didn't. You made it, yeah there was stress. People just all look at things like this differently. I'm rarely if ever late and rarely if ever early. If you say be there at 7 PM I'll be there at 7 PM. Now some people would start to panic at 6:45. When we went on the cruise the wife of the keyboard player - also leader of the band - insisted we get there TWO HOURS early. The flipping airport was not even open as we sat their at 3:45 AM waiting for people to show up behind the counter to check us in for our 6:00 AM flight. To her - almost missing the flight would have been showing up at 5 AM which is totally what I would have done.

But, that's where my benefit of the doubt starts to end. People sleeping through alarms like that is just not normal. I'm putting on my medical hat now - it's just not normal. I know you have suspected or perhaps even confirmed alcohol or possible drug use and THIS just SCREAMS of it. Something is up with that for sure. Yet, he seemed to get away with it - in part because people let him get away with it. If this was me and he had a history of being late, the fishing boat would have left and he would have been waving from the shore. That's the only way people change their behavior - is when consequences are put on them. And his way of not having that happen is to treat the person applying those consequences through hell so they were afraid to do it again. See, I'm not that guy. Get mad at me, I don't care. I have you a 15 minute grace period - you were not there - we left.

The thing is JuJu, the more you talk about this and reveal the details, the more I'm certain you did the right thing with your ex. I'm really wondering if it should not have been done much sooner? Or perhaps you never should have started with him? Not sure. I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes. If this were me and if I really was in love with you and missed you, I'd at least give contacting you a try. The fact he is not - no matter the reason/excuse further convinces me that you made the right decision. Again, I'm not saying he's a bad guy. He's just not your match. More-over, I continue to maintain you did this very well. If anything, you hung on longer than could be expected. He didn't rush to judgement. You have him opportunity. Perhaps when you started not inviting him places was the time to start thinking, hmmmmmm, this is not working. And you were - you were even telling us about it.

In all, I think you handled all of this really well. You learned some things about what you do and do not want. You (hopefully) had some fun. No real damage was done - that I'm aware of anyhow. This really is a no harm, no foul. You dated, and that's it. Next. Use anything you can to make changes for the next time. I think you should be very proud of yourself. Stop second guessing. And I'm a tough grader so hopefully it means something when I say, I think you did well - for whatever it's worth - that's my input!

Thanks don. I think in hindsite, I should not have gone for him. We were too different. It was apparent after that first vacation. I just went into it thinking that because we were both committted and loyal types that we could make it work. I didn�t think compatibility meant as much as shared morals. But I was wrong.

Ex bf went through similar relationship h@ll that I did. That was part of the apppeal. I felt like he would get me. But i am not sure if 2 people that were traumatized can love someone enough again to go through the loss of pride of chasing someone that ended something. He already did that in the past as did I. I will never do that again and he won�t either. He didn�t do it with his other exes. I don�t think love like that is possible. We didn�t have just normal, mutual break ups. There was deception and gaslighting and double lives and the big one being abuse. It kills a part of your ability to give yourself fully to someone.

I�m sad and I do want a partner but I have to get my confidence back. Get out of the depression I guess. Today I was home sick and that certainly didn�t help. Thanks again! I appreciate your input and honesty.

Originally Posted by JujuB

And his criticisms were over really small, stupid things that he wrote off as innocent jabs at humor...He was meeting my friend for the first time and he had to make fun of me because I did not include enough cups in the picnic basket I had worked hard to prepare. It went beyond a hey is that enough cups it was more like a seriously. What? are we all gonna share a cup that you pass around ?! Haha. Get more cups. What are you thinking. Why would you just pack these?

So he would poke fun at you for a perceived mistake or shortcoming. This kind of stuff is just veiled criticism and disrespect. Playful banter is great, even some occasional gentle pokes, but this guy sounds like he did not know where the line was and that is a problem, whether in front of a group or just the two of you.

My response probably would have been "OMG! We don't have enough cups? What are we going to do? We can't just drink straight of the cans and bottles, that's illegal! I guess we're just going to have to cancel the picnic. What a disaster - not enough CUPS!" All with a smile.

Originally Posted by JujuB

The jabs were not funny. There was anger and Impatience behind each comment. Thats what upset me. He was losing his temper with me over things that were really minuscule and done in a way to take the discomfort off of him and on to me. Thats what I think anyway. But it got to the point where I was thinking, Im not gonna invite him cause parking can be tough at that place and if I miss a parking spot and have to drive around hes gonna start harassing me

LOL I feel you on the driving thing. My W is the worst at that, it always lead to her saying "do you need me to drive?" I started responding with "no, but I need you to find the passenger seat mute button" or "where is that passenger seat eject button again?" and that would shut her up until the next thing came up.

Even if you have a snappy comeback every time, it just gets exhausting after awhile because some people cannot control their compulsion to jab and criticize, so it never ends. It just chips away at you. And I love to banter, but it's just so obvious to me where the line is with everyone - love interest has a way different line then a lot of my guy friends.

Here's one for you:

BF: I think that was a parking space right there.

juju: Oops I didn't see that, shoot.

BF: No problem babe, another one will open up.

Doesn't that sound nice.

Gekko - The last dialogue sounds peaceful. For me, I have been through years of fighting with my ex, then divorce with my ex, battle with my attorneys, and I didn�t want more banter just for banters sake. At this point in my life it�s not fun and endearing to me.

I�m not good at quick come backs like you or it might have been different. I also need to think the comment over to see if I am being fair or unfair before I respond. like I�m careful to not just snap back. And I think that�s something that i picked up from divorce busting - but maybe too much in the oppposite extreme of what�s healthy.

I have more of a quieter or maybe a daydreamer personality where I�m not really even paying attention to someone that missed a parking spot. It doesn�t register to me as something to even bring up. So when he would comment on things like that, I was just surprised it even bothered him. I was surprised it invoked anger and frustration when to me it�s not really a big deal. I don�t want to be someone that annoys my partner.

My friends were surprised at his comments too and they are more of the loud say it like it is type. So I don�t think it�s me being completely on one scale of the sensitivity spectrum.

Anyway, as the days go on I do feel good about my decision. I�m certainly not ready to get back out there and date but I still want to find someone I can connect with. This time, I will do things different. Not get exclusive with someone so quick. Date a bit. Not try to conform to someone that might not be a good fit.

So, I did hear from ex via text but in a how�s it going sort of way - he did remain friends with his exes so I would like that for us maybe. I don�t think either of us like the idea of discarding people from our lives. I know we won�t work as a couple though. I felt anxious and depressed the last months of our relationship. But it�s weird for me to not have someone to do things with.

I got my hair cut and balayaged, signed up for some yoga classes, signed up for a monthly massage service. I feel a little guilty spending like that but It falls under a self care thing and I pick up extra cases to cover it. I do feel a bit lonely. My friends are al at busy times in their lives so I�m not really socializing.

So, i was talking to my best friend (who has been the leaver in many of her relationships- not marriage). She was asking me how I felt and if I was ok and I told her how I felt fine. A huge sense of relief and no doubt or desire to go back.insteqd, I feel like I should have ended things even earlier then I did. How I was looking forward to moving on after taking a break. She told me that�s how the person that wants out usually feels. That by the time they get to that point of leaving, that they are done. She reminded me that she had told me that back when my ex had left me...

When my ex husband left me , there was no temperature taking. No trying to sleep with me. No calls to me. He was done. I pursued and that made it worse. But I doubt not pursuing would have helped either.

I told her my ex husband leaving had to have been different. We were together for over 15 years. Had a kid together. That he was hiding a habit and tons of debt he had in secret that I was asking questions about after seeing our tax statements. But from my ex�s perspective - it wasn�t. He wanted out.

I know with my ex bf I am not gonna regret it in 5 years. Yet I keep wanting my ex to one day regret it. And it makes me feel really rejected and unloveable (that�s a corny word but I can�t think of something better) that my ex left me that way. It makes no logical sense to feel that way. My ex was an a$$hole. All the selfishness. I wasn�t like that at all. But when he left, I felt like it was all me. How could it not me cause people don�t just leave good relationships. Our relationship was really bad. I resented his selfishness which really was extreme - not just little stories that I cherry picked. He wasn�t a partner. Yet I was the one rejected.

So how do people get past the feeling of being rejected? How do you not take it personally when it�s from a spouse (versus dating- which is bound to have rejection) I�m even wondering if I went for someone that I would not have cared so much if he did reject me? So I feel all types of messed up.

Originally Posted by JujuB

When my ex husband left me , there was no temperature taking. No trying to sleep with me. No calls to me. He was done. I pursued and that made it worse. But I doubt not pursuing would have helped either.

My XH was the same way. He said he was done and that was it. In our case, though, I did NOT pursue because I'm pretty stubborn and I just thought after all I had done for him if he could so callously drop me, I didn't want to pursue. A few weeks after he'd moved out, he called me for something and more out of habit than anything, as we ended the call, he said "I love you". That got my hackles up in a big way and I just responded with "no you don't" and hung up the phone. I found this site pretty early and saw all of the advice about not begging and pursuing and honestly, those things just never occurred to me. Once he said he was done, I wouldn't have gotten back with him if he'd showed up at my house with 10 million dollars strapped to his body.

Originally Posted by JujuB

I told her my ex husband leaving had to have been different. We were together for over 15 years. Had a kid together. That he was hiding a habit and tons of debt he had in secret that I was asking questions about after seeing our tax statements. But from my exs perspective - it wasnt. He wanted out.

I know with my ex bf I am not gonna regret it in 5 years. Yet I keep wanting my ex to one day regret it. And it makes me feel really rejected and unloveable (thats a corny word but I cant think of something better) that my ex left me that way. It makes no logical sense to feel that way. My ex was an a$$hole. All the selfishness. I wasnt like that at all. But when he left, I felt like it was all me. How could it not me cause people dont just leave good relationships. Our relationship was really bad. I resented his selfishness which really was extreme - not just little stories that I cherry picked. He wasnt a partner. Yet I was the one rejected.

So how do people get past the feeling of being rejected? How do you not take it personally when its from a spouse (versus dating- which is bound to have rejection) Im even wondering if I went for someone that I would not have cared so much if he did reject me? So I feel all types of messed up.

It is hard not to take the whole thing personally. My XH and I had been through a lot of crap. Now, granted, mine wasn't an addict who was straight up hiding money, but mine had some serious medical issues and actually almost died about 6 months into our marriage. He was in and out the hospital and had countless surgeries over the years. In our first year of marriage, he spent nearly 6 months of it in the hospital. I was the caretaker, nursemaid, EVERYTHING. I was the cheerleader when he was down. I was the breadwinner. I did everything for him and the girls to the point that I was totally drug down and worn out. But I did it all because I loved him and I loved the girls. So, when he told me he wanted out, my instinct was to shout "how dare you?" He even said to me on more than one occasion what a good woman I was for sticking by him through everything. Then, in the end, he was the one who walked away. I don't think he ever realized (and I STILL don't think he realizes) how taxing it can be to be the constant caregiver for a spouse, particularly when that spouse is super emotional and prone to great mood swings. Granted, I have never stared death in the face like he did, so I would imagine that somehow gives you a different perspective, but I did the best I could through all of that and then he walked away. I kept wondering why ALL I had done wasn't enough.

I think everyone copes with things differently, but for me, counseling was the key to get past all of those feelings of inadequacy and guilt and all that negative baggage. The other thing that helped me was NOT dating. I had to focus on myself in order to get back on track so that I could, some day maybe, focus on someone else again. I don't necessarily lose myself in a relationship, but I do tend to put other's needs before myself, so in not dating for awhile, it allowed me to just solely focus on me. Ultimately, my XH left me because he found someone else and while that didn't come out until after he was gone, it hurt and I took that personally, but again, counseling helped. The other thing that still helps is knowing that now that I'm a few years out from the experience, XH is finding that life with his new partner is not all sunshine and roses like he thought it would be when he walked away from me. Just like ANY relationship, there are ups and downs. I think sometimes the WAS forgets that because they are in that glow of "the grass is greener". Once the glow wears off, they realize that the grass is pretty much the same color everywhere.

You are a strong person, Juju, and I have no doubt you are going to come out on the other side shining as brightly as the sun. I wish I had a magic pill to give you to help you get there, but like I said, everyone copes differently and different strategies work for different people. I'm very stubborn, so that actually worked to my advantage in my case. You just have to find what works for you and roll with it.

Hey Juju - I totally empathize with how you're feeling.

Just like Dawn said, counseling helped tremendously in the beginning just to get me straight and out of feeling continuously blurry. I haven't been to counseling for the last five months because I got out of it everything I needed to. However, it helped me get good grounding for sure. I have a research background and so I sought out everything - from clinical studies to personal growth books. I focused a lot on emotional health and how to stabilize life by working through past traumas and also BD. I learned a lot about myself, my behaviour patterns, and where they were stemming from. Once I got to the root causes of my behaviour - abandonment and rejection - I was able to really work through a lot of my built in instincts and move from living in survival model to just breathe and live life with a sense of calmness. Also helped me to re-story my life and truly figure out how much strength and resilience I have after all that I've been through for the past few decades. I was able to understand and name my depression and its roots.

The other major point, which is so counter-intuitive, is that I haven't dated yet. Just as Dawn mentioned, I needed to take the time to focus on myself and get my life on track before I opened myself to the world. I did get a dating app to survey the landscape and I wasn't too impressed. I also didn't get any hits on my profiles, which was super annoying. I realized that the dating apps weren't for me right now because it was fueling my rejection traumas and that wasn't healthy for me. I have gotten quite a bit of interest in-person from women. This is partly because I come across a lot differently than an online profile. I also don't know if me mentioning I had kids was a turn-off for women on the online apps. Anyways, I am not dating right now but I tentatively plan to dip my foot back in sometime in the fall of this year. I still need time to get some things right in my life and I want to dedicate time to that.

I feel you on the rejection from the angle of a spouse. My exW is already dating someone and it really stung in the beginning when she told me. I had to take a week for my emotions to settle and reflect on this new turn of events. It was like getting rejected all over again - but now with a name and a face. The only way I have been able to fortify myself is working on my self-value and worth. There is no way to directly attack the sense and feeling of rejection. My path has been to do things that bring me joy, happiness, and a sense of personal value to mitigate rejection. Cultivating emotional fitness and trust that you have value and self-worth is the path. I crush it at my work, my health, my parenting etc and those give me data points to tell myself that I am worthy and that I have value. So, when I see rejection in my face, I know that it is just exW's preference, not an indictment to who I am. I also remind myself that I don't want her back which helps.

So it's a lot of things done daily and over time that builds that self-value. I know that it doesn't make me immune to feelings of sadness, hurt, anger. But I know how to navigate them better now.

I wish there was a simple answer to it, but life is way more rich and complex. All I know is that I have the ability to change my narrative and the perspective that I can take on any given thing. I always listen to what my initial feeling and response says, but I choose to take a wider perspective.

As Viktor Frankl says - "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." I wholeheartedly not only believe that, but I have seen it through personal experience the power behind it.

Quote

How could it not (be) me cause people don�t just leave good relationships.

Oh yes they do. My ex and I had a good relationship. Intellectual companions. Great sex life. Yes, in retrospect he was a narcissist but I was a good match for him because my strong sense of self could withstand that. Of all our couple friends, we were probably the couple people would have picked as having the strongest relationship.

My marriage didn't break because the relationship wasn't good, it broke because my ex couldn't be satisfied. Nothing made him happy enough - he always needed new challenges, change, including new young women so he could fool himself into thinking he wasn't aging. I think my marriage lasted 24 years precisely because it WAS good - I doubt he could have made it nearly that long with anyone else.

Stop second guessing yourself- you're a good mom and partner and this last guy wasn't right for you. You made the right decision.

Originally Posted by kml

[I think my marriage lasted 24 years precisely because it WAS good - I doubt he could have made it nearly that long with anyone else.

I never looked at my own marriage like this kml. Boy oh boy does this make perfect sense in hind-sight. And also why my ex seemingly can't capture the OM she left me for and why her prior relationships exploded so dramatically. Everyone always said that we seemed like the perfect couple - obviously devoted to each other.

Sorry for the thread-jack - but this stood out for me - and perhaps will resonate for some others here regardless of what our actual realities were.

Dawn - I really wish I had more pride when dealing with my ex at BD. He was distancing for a while, and I was chasing and appeasing him and not complaining about disprespectful things like coming home at 2am or disappearing to help with son when I had kidney stones. I was following all these relationship books that were not geared for people in my situation. He had twisted things around though, so I thought that my needs in a marriage were too much and unfair. He was gaslighting. And I love hearing stories about how things aren�t quite the paradise our exes thought they would have.

Marika - thanks for posting. I think for me, I used the dating apps and dating as a form of ego gratification and as a way to prove myself as not being this abusive, difficult person to be married to. Problem was, I didn�t communicate and argue. I just accepted too much.

I think my issue is that I am really acceptable to gaslighting. I remember a year into our relationship with ex husband, I was upset that he wasn�t making much time for me. He broke up with me cause he said I was being too controlling. I was questioning why when we barely saw each other he wasn�t making more time. He broke up and I was in tears begging him to give me another chance (we were in our early 20s.) A recent therapist pointed out to me that I had communicated my needs to him and he handled it by breaking things off. I felt like I was the one that was wrong. I felt like I should not have needs in a relationship. It makes me easily manipulated and complacent and I became the perfect companion for a secret addict that needed to disappear and hide stuff. Cause I believed that I should have no needs. Then when I became pregnant and had our son, I had very appropriate needs again (help and someone that could partner and be responsible) and that�s what ex could not handle.

(Reviewing this makes me disagree even more with that Stanley video on YouTube. You shouldn�t just accept someone when they tell you that you aren�t worth compromising for. That you should not have needs and if you do they will break things off. . )

Also you are on point with the rest of your advice as well. I don�t want my ex back. He is beyond selfish and only looks good on paper. He is a liar in a really deceptive slow boil sort of way though. I know my current state is a matter of perspective. Sometimes I find it hard to change perspectives when I get caught up in that � woe is my life�state of mind but it�s something I have been working on.

KML - thanks again. The last guy definitely was not a match for me. I was trying so hard to change my perspective - focus on good things about myself and my son because of everything I said above - and there he was - criticizing me for it! I should have ended things earlier. And will hopefully do so in the future. I am not doubting my decision only wishing I did it much much earlier.

I wasn�t like you and Andrew though. I didn�t have a good marriage I was satisfied in. I think I knew things didn�t make sense. I just didn�t have the vocabulary to recognize a lot of crazy behaviors. And I didn�t have the power or the thought even that I should and could leave.... You know how children act out when something is seriously wrong in their family - cause they don�t really have the ability to know what�s wrong as they haven�t seen enough or experienced enough yet had the bad luck to be born into a bad family? The difference between me and a child is that I have the ability walk away from a guy. I just never saw that.

Originally Posted by JujuB

Dawn - I really wish I had more pride when dealing with my ex at BD. He was distancing for a while, and I was chasing and appeasing him and not complaining about disprespectful things like coming home at 2am or disappearing to help with son when I had kidney stones. I was following all these relationship books that were not geared for people in my situation. He had twisted things around though, so I thought that my needs in a marriage were too much and unfair. He was gaslighting. And I love hearing stories about how things arent quite the paradise our exes thought they would have.

Well, I'm pretty freaking hard-headed so this was one time when it truly worked to my advantage. It is not always a good thing, but in this case it helped a LOT. I'm definitely one of those people that if you tell me I can't do something, I'm going to do it, just to prove you wrong. So, it was like "you're done with me, ok, screw you, I'm done with YOU." And I never looked back. To this day, honestly, I couldn't care less if my XH burst into flames walking down the street. I would feel bad for the girls because they love their dad (as well they should), but I wouldn't give 2 sh!ts for him or his skanky new wife. I don't talk about him often, but when I do, I usually find myself referring to him in the past tense as though he's dead and it strikes me that, in many ways, he is dead....at least to me.

I think you handle yourself beautifully.

Thank you Dawn - I still wish I had more of your pride during BD though. I�m gonna try to go easy on myself though cause I did not know about all ex�s secrets back then and he had been gaslighting.

So journaling cause I�m home alone on a Saturday night. I kept myself happily busy during the day. Homecares, a yoga class, bike riding and a trip to Trader Joe�s (my favorite store ever). But now I�m feeling lonely. My friends all have babies or IVF treatments or live far away (although maybe a few are always looking for nights out) and I haven�t really reached out to them.

I�m gonna have to date soon just for the socialization I think. But I need to get myself in a better place. I have been comfort eating and I am now almost at the same weight I was after my son was born. I need to lose 7 pounds and i will feel much more confident and I will fit in a lot of my post BD clothes. Not all. I actually dropped down to my lowest weight ever post BD which was less then when I ran track in high school. I remember my boss was begging me not to lose anymore weight. And going back to that weight would require starvation and I was losing my hair at the time so that�s not what I want. But I actually liked how clothes looked on me at a closely anorexic weight. That�s not mentally healthy. Now I�m in the opposite where the numbers on the scale keep going up. I notice I am eating when I am not even hungry. And I read cook books while I eat which is like eating pornography and makes me over eat. I do fine during the day and then it�s when i come home from work. Or when I�m stressed at work and people bring in bakery goods.

The truth is, guys don�t seem to mind weight and sometimes prefer more weight and curves but I feel so much more confident when I have low body fat. I know that logically it�s a stupid thing to focus on and my confidence should not be based on my weight. It�s always been the 1 thing I could control though.

I also need to become fun and happy again. I have been depressed the last several months and just feeling unsettled. I feel better now that I am single but still not quite there yet.

I was looking at the potential people on the dating sites. I feel like I would have a better selection if I was younger, so that�s a bit frustrating. I am realistic. A successful guy that is good looking is gonna date 10 years younger. I get that. I go more for morals and personality then for looks. This time around, I want to date someone that is more compatible with me in terms of activity level and interests. I never end up dating guys that like to read or hike or bike. One of my friends said I need to date an athletic guy, another one said a soft spoken nerdy type. The last guy I dated and my ex husband were more blue collar background, into mechanical things and very arrogant.

OLD is really the only option I have to meet people. The activities I like tend to attract all females or really weird effeminate guys or younger guys and it�s really hard for me to make time for meet up groups. People always say work on you. I don�t even know what that means. I�m just doing nice things for myself - like yoga and exercise and reading for enjoyment. My attention span is only allowing me to reread favorite books I find around the house though. But that�s better then a few years ago. ( I used to be an avid novel reader prior to BD and then became hyper focused on divorce and cheating)

Ok. Sorry for boring everyone l. Maybe in a month or two I will have some interesting stuff to talk about.

If you have time to date why don't you have time to attend a meetup? What about a hiking group? Sounds to me like you could use a larger group of friends right now.

Also - if a mere 7 pounds is making the difference between feeling good about yourself and not, you're still stuck in anorexic thinking. Do you think you could benefit from some therapy around this?

A guy who reads and hikes sounds perfect btw. Funny, I was commenting on another thread about compatibility, and about the two most compatible guys I'd dated since my divorce (both of whom were Love Avoidants though and ultimately not available).

Both of them were very interested in books and good movies though. Smart and good conversationalists. It was nice.

Originally Posted by kml

Funny, I was commenting on another thread about compatibility, and about the two most compatible guys I'd dated since my divorce (both of whom were Love Avoidants though and ultimately not available).

Sorry for the hijack juju and this may be obvious and self-evident, but what made them unavailable? Would they simply not go out with you again? Or as often as you'd like? What was missing? I ask because you say you don't want to get married again and don't need soneone everyday, it sounds like either of these guys might have been a good fit / unless it was them breaking it off rather than you wanting more than they could give.

I agree with KML on the meet ups. It's not like you have to attend every event. You can just attent one here and there. Why not, juju?

I might keep an eye out for some meet up groups. I had forgotten about them and I never actually tried one. I had my eye on a indoor rock climbing one but they always met on evenings I had to work. My brother joined a meet up group that visited different donut shops in his area. That sounded like a fun bunch. Not too many quirky ones in my areas though. I have some good ideas , but no time to organize.

I see they have single nights hosted by the meetup groups. I would feel kind of weird attending one of these by myself. Kind of like being the new kid walking into the cafeteria at lunch but different. I think a pre arranged date via OLD is easier and less awkward no? It�s harder for me to socialize in group sessions. I�m better one on one with someone.

Anyone here try this? What did you think?

Are love avoidant more like friends with benefits?

Don, t Love Avoidant is a type that feels overwhelmed at the thought of a real relationship and has to keep everyone at arms length. Sometimes they grew up with an overwhelming parent and they fear being engulfed in a relationship. In both these guys cases, I think it was more that they had suffered traumatic losses in the past and used distance as a way to feel safe from the risk of incurring that pain again.

The first guy dumped me when his long list childhood and high school love found him. She predates the trauma in his life and I think nostalgia for that time played a big role. She doesn't seem to have gotten much more from him than I did though. They are still together 8 years later but it's still long distance, looks like she still travels to him not vice versa, looks like she only sees him every couple of months.

The second guy told me up front that he didn't "do" relationships so it was always a casual thing. I stopped seeing him when I took up with crazy ex BF, although he would occasionally text or call me during those years, just as a friend. Dated him briefly again before CMM but he disappeared shortly before I met CMM and haven't heard from him since. I worry about him because I know he suffers from depressive episodes but he hasn't returned texts or calls. I don't know any of his friends to check on him and short of driving to his city and parking outside his security building and watching for him to appear - which I wouldn't do - I really have no way to check on him. But an item mailed to his condo was not returned to sender and no obituary has appeared so I assume he is alive and has just crawled into his cave for whatever reason.

Obviously neither were compatible from the standpoint of me preferring one steady monogamous partner. But they were both very intellectually compatible and I greatly enjoyed their company.

So this was a rough week. Sons adhd behaviors were pretty rough. In some ways he acts so immature...non stop talking at full volume. Getting really silly for attention or just to hear himself talk. I lost my temper yesterday and feel horrible. But in other ways he is so smart and profound.

Son is 8 now and before we go to bed is when he has serious conversations with me. Tonight, He was telling me how he feels like he is the glue between 2 families. And how if he died or if something happened to him, neither family would be families with each other any more and this really bothered him. He told me if something happens to him, he wants me to get back with his father. He actually told me that he knows I won�t be able to trust him in the beginning but I would have to give it a long time. Like longer then before. He tells me he talks about this with another boy whose grandparents divorced and got back together. I tell him that it will not happen for his dad and I and he says �I know�

He also was upset that he wasn�t strong enough glue to keep us together. He kept saying that. And I feel bad that he recognizes that he wasn�t enough to make his Dad fight for our marriage. He does know his dad left me. He knows I did not want to divorce and that I disagree with divorce.

I feel so bad that he has to deal with this. Me and my siblings never had to go through this. It�s really hard on him to love me and want to be with me but also want to see his dad. It must be hard to have 2 separate families.

When he gets older, addiction issues will possibly come up. They are already teaching them about drugs. But am I gonna have to keep his dads issues a secret from him. If he knows will he be more likely or less likely to try them? Addiction is hereditary and it�s a disease. Does he have the right to know what I know. How will that effect him? Will not knowing make it worse? Drugs and alcohol are so bad that they make people act in ways that hurt their kids instead of he wasn�t worth working on a marriage.

What do I say to him?

Last night he asked me about Santa. Kept asking me to tell him the truth. I told him there was a real st Nicholas at one time. But it�s kind of like god. We don�t really know but I am the one who puts the presents under the tree. He told me �the joy of Christmas is real and that�s what matters�

I can speak to the addiction issues. I knew growing up my mother was an addict. She went to rehab twice. Second time when I was 8. I knew she had a drug addiction. I was there for her 90 day narcotics anonymous meeting where she got her coin.

Knowing what I knew, I knew I did not want to do drugs. ( I don�t consider pot a drug, but that�s a whole other debate) but I was very careful my whole life in touching anything. I never did anything more than drink or smoke weed. You are raising your son and you are raising him well. I wouldn�t bring it up. But if it ever did come up, honesty is good and something to learn from.

I am so so sorry your son feels like he wasn�t strong enough to keep you and your ex together. That�s not his job. That�s on his dad. Your son just sounds so emotionally intelligent . You are doing such a good job raising him, I think he will be just fine.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

I don�t consider pot a drug, but that�s a whole other debate.

It sure is and it sure is. We can certainly debate if it's harmful, how harmful it is, if it's useful, for what, when and how much. Certainly all of that is up for debate. But if it's a drug or not????? You're a nurse for crying out loud. Certainly you know it meets criteria to be classified as a drug.

Rationalization really is one of the strongest human drives.

Juju your son is clearly very wise. It's so common and uncanny for kids to blame themselves for things that happen. I don't think many of us realize how common this is. Please reassure your son that he was not the glue and is still not. Reassure him that everything that went on would have happened even in his absence. Please let him know he is in no way responsible for any of it.

As for addiction and heredity, you are correct about all you state. However has your ex h addiction ever been confirmed? I know that you strongly suspect but has he ever been diagnosed or do you have actual proof? If so, later in life, likely teen years, telling S that addiction runs in the family may be prudent - but only if confimred that it really does. And yes, pot very much does count.

Don.. this is the proof I have.

1. 5 years of credit cards showed he purchased from 3 different liquor stores every one week and averaged between 250 and 350 per month. I also found times that I remembered we were on vacation and he told me he was going for a drive to see a mountain and really it was a liquor store.

2. He didn�t wake up in the morning to alarms blaring.

3. ATM withdrawals for 3 years back showed he was leaving work at really weird times of the day and driving to bad neighborhoods sometimes an hour from his job to withdraw 700 dollars a week. That�s in addition to 100 dollars a day.

4. He had depleted his IRA and had credit card debt that made no sense. He had just been paying off the minimum for years.

5. I found tons of empty jack daniels bottles (12 to 15) in his desk and my parents found a bunch hidden in the trash. I actually took pictures and showed it privately to our marriage counselor and she told me she didn�t think he was an addict. Just that he was using alcohol as a crutch because of our marital problems. I also showed it to his mom who told me that he always liked to collect bottles. I tried to tell her later about the money so that if there were problems she could stage an intervention but she didn�t want to get involved and my guess was scared about custody loss (he didn�t want much custody but I don�t know if she knows that)

6. I confronted him and he admitted to a drinking problem. I asked him to take a drug test and he declined. He told me that if marijuana showed up I would use it against him ( I would not have cared about marijuana) . He asked me what drugs I thought he was taking and I told him coke. And he laughed at me and said with his heart issues?? And then told me if I mandate testing he could lose his job.

If you ever met him, or saw him you would never ever think he was an addict. He comes across and humble and responsible. He has a really great professional job. He is super smart. Went to top schools. Well dressed. Drives a luxury car.

When I first met him when we were in our early 20/ he didn�t even like to drink (liked pot). Round time son was born I noticed he would drink at night and just thought it was a night cap. He would be up till really late like 3 or 4 and would tell me it worked better that way with work and dealing with clients in different time zones. I also remember once when we first started dating that a friend of mine told me he did coke and I asked him and he said he just tried it. So I believed him. I experimented in my youth as well (not with coke). I do remember that right before son was born he had a back injury that needed surgery and it mysteriously went a way the week before his surgery. So maybe he was taking pain meds.

So I don�t have actual proof like an admiral or drug tests. Just this info. We kept separate credit cards and bank accounts and I just trusted that he was saving like me.

He was always a late riser and his mother backed up that he had been like that his whole life so I just thought it was some sort of sleep disorder. I thought he had ocd issues (which his mother also told me) and that�s why he was always in the bathroom or couldn�t leave the house. It would take him forever to actually just get out of the house.

I was also really overwhelmed with son and work and I am disorganized and probably have adhd as well so it was really easy for him to deflect my money questions.

$700 a week cash in bad neighborhoods - oh yeah, probably coke or heroin (causes a lot of GI problems).
I can;t believe your marriage counselor was so obtuse!

So it�s been a while. Nothing eventful to really post. I�m kind of on a plateau in life. No conflict or issues, which is good.

I�m feeling the desire to get back out there and date again. I would like to have someone to share my life with and talk to and think about.

I want to put a dating profile back up, but I�m gonna be super busy the next couple of weekends so I should probably wait. I think it�s safer to go with a paid for site then a free one? Maybe it weeds out people that are not really serious - although I heard that often time, the same men I would meet that sign up for the paid also sign up for the one you don�t have to pay for so I could potentially save 20 bucks a month doing the free one?

I have been reading some of the profiles (both men and women) to see what�s out there. Very few people put out unique profiles. They all kind of say the same thing. And then others write that they are not spending time writing up a big profile - as the only way to know if you will like someone is by meeting them. Which is true too. Someone could just be a really good writer or have a friend that�s a really good writer. But a hood profile hooks me more then good pics do. Ugh. I�m gonna have to start collecting recent pics of myself too. I always worry that people at work or patients are gonna recognize me from an OLD site as well. I feel embarrassed.

I did it once before but met someone super quick and never went out on more then 2 meetups. So it will still be new to me.

There may be more scammers on the free sites but then again, I think more newly single people are on the free sites, and the good ones probably get snatched up before they get to the point of paying for a site.

I'm a sucker for a well written profile, with good vocabulary, spelling and punctuation AND a good sense of humor. They don't have to write a novel but what they write should be entertaining or interesting. No pictures with their ex obviously cut out. No selfies in the bathroom mirror. And NO to the one guy who was wearing a bathrobe and holding a duck (a live one!), I still don't know what that was about hahahaha.

When in doubt, ask a good girlfriend to read them with you - she may see red flags that you do not.

I spent about a year or so (I don't remember) lurking on both the POF and MATCH sites. I originally thought like you do Juju that the paid sites imply that the person there is more serious. I don't know.

I found just lurking with a hidden profile for a while was a very healthy thing. I saw the people who cycled in and out. The ones who would have new profiles every month or so. The ones with the well written profiles, the ones with long lists of demands, the ones with the long list of complaints. The latter was a good guideline about what people were "not" looking for.

What I didn't have experience with was meeting the actual people. I'd done a fair bit of flirting and also dated a couple of women that I'd met the "old fashioned way".

As a guy especially in a rural area my experience was undoubtedly different than what you would have as a woman in an urban environment.

B and I have talked a fair bit about her OLD experience. Now her profile on POF was undoubtedly very low end. 2 pictures, one of which given her posted age looked like an old one (it wasn't) and one that was just badly copied off her phone. Her summary was 2 sentences including bad spelling (she has horrible spelling). But she got a lot of hits. She texted with and met a number of men. I believe only one (other than me) made it past the first coffee date. From what she told me, and I'm not too surprised, the bulk of mature men on there who would go for a profile like that are either desperate and clingy, or a 'player" who spams everyone hoping for a hit and a quick lay. As you may not recall, when I met B for the first time, she only looked vaguely like the profile picture she had - an immediate "no" for most of the guys who post on here at least. A number of the guys immediately acted as if connecting or one coffee date created an instant relationship and became quite demanding and controlling. Many were just looking for sex or an appliance that would cook and clean for them. A few of them ghosted her - IMO probably in part because of the profile mis-match.

The one that disturbed me and her the most was a guy who was very charming and said all the "right" things on date 1. Then on date 2 he essentially date raped her. I say essentially because B presents it as consensual even though she said it wasn't her idea, she was uncomfortable with it and didn't enjoy it. It turned her off OLD until February when she opened it on a whim and some pressure from friends and found me - who she had met briefly in person about 6 months earlier and remembered. She blasted me with messages in the middle of the night, the last few of which were - TBH - kind of sad - the "sorry for bothering you" sort. I took a fair chance - mainly because of some input here from KML - to look beyond the superficialities - and well - I just kissed her and sent her off to work. I'm working from home today.

I know of others who have had a good OLD experience connecting through there with people that they had met / knew outside and I know that's rare as unicorn f@rts.

---

In my own profile which got only a few hits after I unhid it, and B didn't even read other than double checking that the person she remember was me, was humourous, had the suggested types of photos, made it obvious that I was a stable guy with an appreciation for theatre, the outdoors in moderation, was a couple of extra pounds in size and that I liked pie. If I had worked it longer, would I have gotten more hits? No clue.

---

Where I'm trying to go in my usual meandering style is that OLD is risky, especially for a woman. One site vs another is no guarantee. The cost barrier is minimal and IMO meaningless. I've had single dinner dates that cost more than a year's subscription. Lurking I think is a good idea to get the flavour of who is out there on the different platforms in your area. And maybe guys who have a fondness for ducks can also be sweet, caring, responsible and funny. I like pie.

I met Sparky on POF. I think, for me, the key to OLD was to be very wary of who you were talking to and watch for red flags. My good friend college guy, who I posted about, also popped up on POF after his divorce and I KNOW he's a good guy because I have known him since I was young. Sparky is a good guy or I wouldn't marry him. So, my point is, good guys do exist on this dating sites...even the non-paying ones (neither Sparky nor I ever paid a dime for subscriptions to dating sites). You just have to be choosy. Like kml said above, I was a sucker for a good, well-written profile and I didn't like bathroom selfies or pics wearing sunglasses (what is it with guys wearing sunglasses in EVERY pic?). I'm educated and like to think I'm fairly intelligent so I wanted a profile that at least had some indication that the writer was the same way. Sparky's was excellent. It was witty, a bit sarcastic...right up my alley. He had 3 pictures, as I best recall: 1 kind of close up with a goofy expression, 1 of him in a boat fishing, holding a fish he had caught, and 1 full body pic that his daughter had taken a few months prior to his posting it.

I live in a rural area, so meeting people from my local area was difficult and the few I did meet seemed to be looking for a quick, no strings attached sex partner. It almost turned me off OLD altogether, but I hung in and like Andrew said, hid my profile so I could look without being inundated by bots and scammers. I was honest in my profile about being a big woman and my pictures were current and honest so I didn't get a lot of hits anyway and most I did get were some sort of scammer (those become obvious REAL quick). But I persevered and Sparky came along. One thing I did that I know some of the men on this board have posted about hating is, I didn't give my phone number or agree to meet real quickly. If someone wasn't willing to message with me and get to know me a bit that way first, then I didn't want to talk to them. That just didn't work for me. I'm not saying the men on our board are wrong, I'm just saying what worked for them didn't work for me. And, I'm sure it ran a few guys off but oh well. Obviously those weren't the right guys for me. Sparky and I messaged back and forth for several weeks and after about week 3, we exchanged e-mail addresses and communicated that way for a couple of more weeks. At that point, I felt confident in giving him my number and we texted. It was about a month and a half after we initially connected that we talked about meeting for the first time and then, as I have posted many times, his dad got sick and was hospitalized and ultimately passed away so it actually pushed our in person meeting back another month or so. But, during the time he was dealing with his dad's passing, we continued to stay in touch. He even told me that one of the reasons that he liked me and kept reaching out was that I seemed so genuine when I talked to him as he was dealing with his dad's passing, expressing my condolences, asking after his mother, etc.

It is a scary world but there are good people out there. If you decide to do it, just proceed with caution.

Thanks Andrew and kml.

I did start lurking. It�s interesting and I wanted to see if there�s anyone out there I can see myself with. The problem is you really don�t know who someone is till you meet them. My imagination can fill in things that are not real about someone based on a witty profile and that�s bad too. So I�m not gonna read anymore. I�m gonna put myself out there in 2 weeks and see what happens.

This time around, I am not going to write to any guys. I did that with ex bf. He had told me he stopped writing to women cause he never got any responses and just basically took a passive approach and waited. Well, I realized that passive approach means lazy and it carried into our whole relationship. This time around, if the guy does not have the energy or courage to approach me first I just don�t want to be bothered.

I think I am also going to set a certain amount of dates to go on with different men before I settle down with 1. Maybe 10 mandatory? I tend to like relationships so it�s easy for me to get exclusive quick. (I�m not sleeping with anyone unless I sense exclusivity though)

One of the things I read from guys is that they are looking to be friends first before a relationship and I get that some might not want to rush into a serious relationship. But I think that�s code for friends with benefits? Meet ups would be better for friendship as opposed to a dating site, no?

Sometimes I initiated contact but truthfully most of the time I did not. When I was on Match I would sit back and wait for a woman to like me and then if I liked her I would send her an email. I did initiate contact with the Dr after she showed up in my daily matches though. I was dating for roughly 6 months before the Dr. and I met.

My advice would be to just take a date or a meeting for what it is. Don't go into it assuming or thinking it will turn into something more. It's a chance to get out of the house and meet someone out for drinks, coffee, or whatever. Maybe you like them or maybe you don't.

I probably spoke with 20 to 30 women and went out with 12 different ones before the Dr. At our age it is very easy to dismiss someone so IMO it just depends on what you are looking for.

My profile said nothing about being friends first. I also always went for the kiss every single time if I was attracted to the person. If I wasn't attracted they got a hug.

J,

I think you should absolutely write to a man you are interested in if he states what he is looking for and you can truthfully say you meet that criteria. I give a woman extra points for reaching out because most do not like to initiate.

I would stay stay away from any guy who says he wants to be friends first. He�s either lying or he shouldn�t be on a dating site. He should be on meetups.com

As far as paid or non paid I do both and they both seem to fluctuate. You should probably do one of each.

I�m about 0-20 finding someone I want to go on multiple dates with so I definitely don�t think 10 is unreasonable.

Good luck!

J. The woman you initiated contact with, is the woman you ended up respecting and liking the most. I�m thinking a lot of guys (not all) consciously or subconsciously respect a woman more when they have to chase. When it�s not a sure thing. When dr withdrew, you mentioned your feelings for her intensified.

I�m not saying I�m going in with the intention of playing games. Ex bf loved me and wanted a future with me so what I did was not wrong. But i end up getting involved with men that aren�t right for me. My personality is not a personality that�s gonna do well with a guy that needs the woman to do all the work. I also was a bit too accepting of red flags or things that bothered me because I kept thinking, �well he�s not a cheater or drug user�.

This time around, I want a guy that�s more positive and that I have fun with. He would also have to be loyal and commitment seeking and financially responsible but at the same time generous and good with my son. Someone that�s intelligent - likes to read would be nice too (just putting it out to the universe) this time around I think we have to have more things in common. I dated before for the simple sake that ex was committed and loyal - thus safe, not because we were compatible.

I know I sound a little nutty and opinionated on these anonymous forums, but IRL I actually do well with things like dating and making good first impressions. I don�t think I have ever not been hired after an interview - and I tend to not get rejected on the short term (ex husband rejected me big time) . Someone here noted I�m a people pleaser and I think that�s why I do well but also what keeps me in relationships that are not right for me. I�m not a pushy person and I know how to keep things light and fun without pressure.

I think the guy should go in for the first kiss if he�s feeling chemistry but maybe not on the coffee or drink interview.

J - As a woman you can initiate, get the ball rolling, and then let the man do the work from there without pursuing. On Match for example you can initiate with a simple "like" of a man's profile and then let him take the ball and run with it.

I do agree though that being too available and a man knowing he has a sure thing can be a turn off. That is what I experienced with the Dr. which made me question how much a really liked her.

Honestly I would never meet a woman out for coffee on our first date. That said I could also not be with someone who didn't drink either.

Isn�t the first date in OLD more like a quick interview meet up? Make sure the person is who they say they are or fairly normal before you invest in an evening date?

Going out for a drink for me would mean an invested Friday or Saturday evening. So there�s a limit to how often I can fit that in. If I�m looking to meet different guys, a middle of the day coffee meet up or walk in a public area is easier and safer. I would have to reserve the drink evening meet ups for the guys I see more potential in. Or the guys I get a safer vibe from.

Night time Drink meet ups are harder for me as I�m a light weight and would never let a guy I don�t know pick me up or drive me home. I would basically have to nurse a watered down drink and hope the guy doesn�t slip something in it as I would be going by myself - so it does make it more dangerous. In my much younger single days I always went out with friends (guys included) that looked after each other. My son relies on me so I have to be cautious.

I�m just throwing out the female perspective and wondering what other women do.

I met the Dr. out on a Wednesday night for a couple of drinks about 3 miles from our house. We sat at the bar, chatted for about 2.5 hours and then made out in the parking lot for a few minutes. Our next date was 3 days later on a Saturday night. Meet him during the middle of the week for date 1 and if you like each other then have your second date on a prime time Friday or Saturday night.

I don't do coffee dates in the middle of the day because it is not romantic.

You can always Uber if you don't want to drive. I did not suggest to the Dr. or pick her up at her house until date #4.

When I was younger I�m pretty sure I was slipped something. I was casually dating a new guy and we went to a party together. I remember not knowing what the hell happened that night - like I had completely blacked it out and the lm later the guy holding my hair as I threw up in the bushes. But luckily my best friend made a 3rd wheel out of herself and came back with us. I don�t think it was necessarily my date that did that. But I have never gotten that sick from drinking ever as I tend to not tolerate more then 1 or 2 glasses. I barely drink in general unless I go out and when I do it has to be a nice quality wine or liquor or I get sick.

Also night time weekday dates are tough for me as I work a few evenings each week and I have my son every week night. So I understand that it will place limits on the guys Willing to deal with that. I don�t want to invest in a baby sitter or Uber for a guy I never met either.

I do agree with you that an evening meet up is more romantic. It feels sexier to dress up for someone.

I�ll just play it by ear when the time comes. I do like hearing what others have experienced and how others feel. You and the dr seem like you had good chemistry and we do get instincts on who is safe to make out in a parking lot with

I only did coffee dates for the first meeting, and NEVER give a guy your phone number until after you've had a coffee date - that's a good way to end up with dic pics.

You don't want a guy to have your phone number, last name or address until you've at least had one coffee date and feel comfortable he's not a stalker or crazy. Since my email address includes my whole name I never used it until I had met somebody in person.

Men complain in general that they don't get many responses on OLD, so if you see somebody you are interested in, you should contact them. Or at least "like" or "wink" at them, if the platform gives you the opportunity to do something like that. I had generally better luck with the men I contacted (because I already knew I found something attractive about their profile) than with the men who contacted me (who often hadn't even read my profile). Also, some men had their age limit set slightly lower than my age, but were plenty interested in me when I contacted them. So some likely prospects might not even be seeing you because of age, or geographical limits.

Andrew - it wasn't the duck in the picture that was disturbing - it was the fact that he was wearing a BATHROBE while holding the duck.

Personally I found that brunch dates (I have no young kids) worked well for me. No reasonable expectation of an bumping of the uglies being proposed, usually the places are cheery and well lit, easy to explain you have afternoon plans and certainly easier on the wallet.

And I like brunch. They often have pie.

I agree with Andrew, I like the idea of a brunch date or a late breakfast even, but then again, I'm a breakfast person and I like to eat breakfast out. I like lunch dates as well. I am not a coffee drinker, so asking someone for a coffee date seems odd when I don't like coffee, but most places have other options. I get what J said about day dates aren't romantic, but if it is my first meeting with someone, I'm not looking for romance. I also get what he said about going out for drinks. I am a drinker, but I don't typically go out for drinks on the first date because I don't really know that person yet. For me, personally, sticking to brunch, lunch, go grab a sweet tea kind of thing works best.

Brunch or lunch still negates the main point of a coffee date: its short. If you know after five minutes that the person is definitely not for you, or worse yet creepy and weird, you don't want to be stuck for a long meal. Coffee date implies it will be brief and both parties have a plausible out to leave relatively soon. It's just a MEETING, not a real date yet.

I think I was posting at the same time others were posting and missed some advice by LH and Dawn so thanks. I still don�t think I will initiate this time around though with a message. I�m gonna just focus on the guys that make an effort. I think guys say they like women to do that, but then think they don�t have to work as hard (again not all guys) cause it�s a done deal (ex bf ) Or maybe a guy that doesn�t initiate is the type that�s gonna just always allow the woman to initiate out of a passive or lazy personality type (ex bf)

I also reread something about Andrews B that was disturbing and really sad. There�s some great books I would recommend by Gavin Becker - one of them is called protecting the gift (but more geared for keeping kids safe). Any way, the author talks about how many women feel the need to be polite and nice first and how it makes them a prime target. That�s kind of what that situation sounds like. In his books he teaches women that they don�t have to be polite and gives them some really good scenarios and helps them recognize what to look out for by predators and how to respond )

I am certainly not a loud or tough female but I was raised in a pre gentrified area in the 80s where Being �rude� is acceptable and the norm. If I�m not comfortable, I don�t worry about being polite. I shut my window and drive away or shut down a conversation and find someone around I�m comfortable with. I am teaching my son to follow his instincts and if someone seems creepy or gives him the wrong vibe to just get away. I explain to him �that guy gave me the creeps� that�s why I left. And I don�t care whether someone gets offended. I know in other areas of the country that�s not the norm though.

For example, One time some guy pulled up real close to my car and was indicating that he wanted me to roll my window down. He kind of blocked my car to do so and I�m thinking �who the f asks a women with a baby in a car seat for directions?� So I pulled away and almost hit his car and he got mad and was yelling out his window. But I didn�t care. I just drove to a nearby fire station in case he followed me. I think more women need to be ok with being rude to people that make them uncomfortable.

So, I went to pick up son at ex mil�s house and it brought back memories. It really feels like yesterday that I was just hanging out in her backyard by the pool. We went there so frequently and i guess I felt really nostalgic. I have to say, her backyard just felt like a really nice and very positive place. I really get what others feel when they say, �I can�t believe he/she was able to just discard it all�. I just can�t believe how it�s been 4 years, yet it still feels like it was yesterday.

I still feel really traumatized by how ex treated me. Each year it gets better. But to me, it feels like I�m getting over a really bad crime or assault. I have dreams that I am yelling at ex or yelling at ex mil. It�s not that I miss him or want him back. It�s just getting over the feeling that a crime was committed against me. That�s what I am struggling with. What�s worse is that him and his mother try to act friendly and like aquaintances and to me, it�s as if someone�s rapist is going about in society and being friendly and acting like nothing happened. I am only nice when I need something and I have no problem making that obvious.

I decided that I am going to sign up for a paid on line dating site next week. I still have to get recent pics of myself. I feel like I look so much older then I did almost 2 years ago when I signed on the 1st time. I weigh about 4 to 5 lbs more and so know that shouldn�t matter but it does to me. 5 lbs is a lot on me and i know i can lose it in a few weeks with just a really strict diet. But I�m struggling with sugars and carbs. I can go 2 days and then I binge cause of emotions.
Something I never did before.

But I�m looking forward to dating. Last time around i went into it all wrong.

I feel so nervous. I just submitted my profile on OLD. My pics are really not good compared to other women but I didn�t want to filter and I just don�t have many recent ones. At worst the guys that don�t like heavily made up women won�t go for me (which is probably a good thing) and the guys that do won�t be disappointed if we meet up.

My profile itself is a bit long. But I think it�s good for the people that bother to read it. Do guys even care about profiles? Will see what happens. Im not allowing myself to look until later.

I can�t believe how unconfident I feel. I worry about patients seeing me up there and a little bit about ex bf seeing me there and feeling hurt. He has not been back up on the site.

I only read the profile if I liked the pictures. Do the pictures you posted look like you? If you met someone out on a date would they say you look like your pictures?

I will not reach out to a girl who has no profile. We have to have some common interests.

Don't filter! Post honest pics. And for heaven's sake, do NOT compare yourself to other women. You are unique and special and amazing in your own right. Don't look at other people and try to measure your worth based on what you see of them. I don't wear make-up at all. Haven't in years. When I put up my OLD profile, I chose a couple of close-up face shots (no make-up) and a couple of full-length ones because I had already said I was a big girl, but I wanted them to see what that meant. Men are very visual and "big" is relative.

I understand your nervousness and lack of confidence. I experienced those same things when I first looked into OLD. I, too, had a rather long profile, but to me it helped me sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in that those who had obviously taken the time to actually read the whole thing and talk to me about things contained in it were the ones I would communicate with while those that led with crap like "you are beautiful" (nice try, buddy, but no) or "oh you are a teacher....my mom (grandma, sister, aunt, best friend's sister's husband's cousin twice removed) was also a teacher" (no kidding, Captain Obvious...thanks for the autobiography) got ignored right from the start.

It's a weird world to navigate and there are some odd ducks out there for sure, but think about those of us on here who have dipped our toes into that particular pool. I dare say, at some point, all of us have found quality folks. If I remember their stories correctly, J9 found his doctor lady OLD and I found Sparky that way. I even want to think that Andrew had some online connection to his lady B, but I may be fuzzy on that particular one. My point is that while there are crazies, there are also decent folks looking for love out there. Try not to get too discouraged or be too nervous. You are wonderful and the right person will recognize that whether they come from OLD or you bump into them with your cart in the middle of a crowded grocery store.

Ummmm.... I have met you juju. You are gorgeous and don�t need a filter. And I know guys steer away from filters because that usually means a person is hiding something.

You are going to have no problems with this, that I am sure of

Thanks guys. I�m trying so hard to wait till later to see who responded.

My pics look like me. The lighting is off and not in a super flattering way. Little makeup (I don�t know how to put it on right) and I�m mostly wearing work out type outfits. I had no recent dressy pics of me. Just 1 which is dressy for me (black pants and a frilly tank top) but not comparably. I always feel funny asking people to take pics of me.

I can�t help but look at the other woman�s profiles and a lot of them are very glamorous looking. I just haven�t been to any glamorous places. I�m shocked that 42 year old teachers are posting bikini shots. Yes, they look like they live at the gym. And a lot of them have had work done. It�s ok though. I�m not gonna click with a guy that likes those type of women anyway. I have to stop comparing.

Yes, girl, PLEASE stop comparing yourself. Listen, I (fortunately) learned this lesson a LONG time ago, but you just have to be comfortable in your own skin and confident in who you are and the people who really matter will recognize that you are enough. I don't mean to sound like a self-motivational quote here, but it is true. I'm 5'11" and weigh more than I care to admit which is a turn-off in and of itself for a lot of guys. There are a many, many women in this world who are physically more attractive than I am and if I compared myself to them all the time, I would just have to give up. Don't focus on what they have that you don't. Focus on what you do have that makes you you.

I can tell which ones used the beautify app and who did not. Just make sure your pictures look like you, nothing is more frustrating than someone walking through the door that doesn't look like what I saw online.

Keep us posted.....let us know how many emails you have to weed through!

Ok. So I�ve had a lot of nice messages. There are maybe 5 guys I could see myself writing back to. They were professionals, taller then me, decent looking with normal profiles. I seem to be attracting guys that are active.

I have a good job. . I have money saved. But I love with my parents. (Cost of living is really high here and I don�t want to struggle or throw money away in rent). I worry a lot of professional guys are going to look down on me or write me off when they hear that?

How long is it ok to go before responding to the guys I am interested in learning more about? I�m exhausted and busy too. I think they know I looked at their profile and read their message.

A lot of Guys write messages like�how are you� or �nice smile� which means I technically have to come up with conversation. Or just respond with a �thanks� or �good� and see what they say.

JujuB - The ones who write something generic haven't bothered to read your profile and are spamming at least dozens and undoubtedly more profiles hoping for a nibble or a quick lay. On the guy side it is perhaps considered a "numbers game" so a lot of guys do that. You've seen that on the guy threads here.

I'm not sure what platform you are using - but are you the fish or the fisher? Reach out to guys who interest you - don't wait for them to find you. So few guys get contacted that you are likely to get a positive response if you initiate. B's online profile wouldn't have attracted me. But her message - which admittedly included a reference to an IRL meeting - inspired me to take a chance.

kml also inspired me to look beyond the superficial. Look for honesty first.

I am on a paid site. I agree. I won�t waste my time responding to a generic � hi how are you�.

I went on the site a few years ago but reached out to ex bf who had a really good profile. Other then him I went on 1 date and never responded to the guys that messaged me. I shut my profile down super quick too without dating.

I think I created something in my mind based on the profile for ex bf. (In hind-site, during the early days of dating i was using him as a therapist because he was also a LBS). The reason he never reached out to me was because he figured a woman would message him if she wasn�t interested enough but figured women get a lot of messages so why pursue. He was very attentive in the beginning, but then got really lazy and passive as the relationship moved forward.

I�m kind of figuring that if a guy doesn�t bother to read my profile and pursue it�s cause he�s not interested or has tendencies forwards laziness and passiveness. I don�t want to be a pursuer anymore.

When I would write someone I would usually pick something out in their profile and strike up conversation around that. For example, in the Dr's profile she mentioned she gets her hair cut twice a year at Great Clips. So my first message to her was the following......"Is it a deal breaker if I spend more money on my hair than you?" She responded with "LOL, no it's not a deal breaker...I probably spend more money on ammo".

I would focus more on those that actually say something more in depth an actually ask you a question to generate conversation.

I don't think living at home is a deal breaker as long as you have a logical explanation when the time comes to reveal it. I would also add that when you have to reveal it make sure you come across confident in your explanation as to why.

If you don't want to pursue then don't. If the man is interested then he will do the work.

I only want a guy that�s interested enough to do the work.

How long can I wait before responding back? Is there an etiquette to it?

IMO no rules for a woman just be aware of the vibe you might be giving off. There were times I got in a back and forth with someone at night and other times the woman would take her time to respond. If I got into a back and forth with multiple messages exchanged in one evening usually I would meet them out for drinks faster than I would someone who took a day to respond. It just depends on how fast you want to move. Women that took their time to respond where more intriguing to me.

The DR. read my message on a Saturday, she responded the next day (Sunday) and we met out for drinks on Wednesday.

I expected most people would respond at night after they got off of work. Remember that you control the pace.

Ok. That does help J.

I�m not intentionally delaying responses to create intrigue. I�m just a bit overwhelmed and tired. How do people have time for this? It�s hard for me to work up playfulness for strangers on the internet.

I feel a lot less confident this time around and I�m not sure why. Tomorrow I will write back to the guy I liked the most. He complimented my profile with specific details and complimented my smile. His profile was well written as well. I notice a lot of guys do that and maybe it�s a way to comment on a physical attribute without crossing the line? I think it�s a good idea if mixed in but not the sole message.

I guess to my advantage is I don�t feel like I want it all that bad. It�s almost like something for me to do and think about other then my ex husband.

I never complimented a girl on anything physical during the emailing back and forth stage. There was one girl that had a really amazing smile that I did tell her that on our first date.

I never had the time to talk to or date multiple women at once. Not sure how many people do that these days with work, kids, and other responsibilities.

Just have fun with it, correspond when you feel the need and just enjoy it. Try to not take it overly serious.

Dating is hard, especially when you are getting back into the swing of things. One of the biggest challenges is realizing that you do not have to settle for anyone, you can be a bit picky. For me, the games is what always drove me nuts, these "wait 3 days to call her again" or "don't send her a FB friend request until the 3rd date" "etc" crap was completely insane.

When I got divorced I dated a few girls. First one I dated was amazing, I could have married her, but I realized it wasn't fair. I was just replacing my ex with a different girl. I had to break it off and GAL, because I didn't really know who I was yet either. Looking back, she was amazing, but a few years later, I know we never would have worked out. I would have had to change into what she wanted, which I would have done, but I would have been miserable again.

Best advice, be you. Don't hide it. The girl I have been with for a few years is like that, completely caught me off guard. One of our first dates, she ate chicken wings, like a freaking caveman, I was waiting for her to snap the bones in half and suck out the marrow (do chickens have marrow?), she had buffalo sauce all over her face and I just started cracking up. She said "Yup... This is who I am, I LOVE chicken wings...I am not proud of how I eat them, but I am not ashamed either." I realized right then and there that she knew who she was and I could take it or leave it. So I took it.

Thanks for posting eye tie - a girl that eats chicken wings like that sounds like she would be fun! I love it when women are just down to earth and relatable.

So far online dating has been going well. One guy seems really nice and enthusiastic and seems to be a good communicator and we are trying to figure a time to meet up. Another guy is looking into a dance lesson for us which seems like a fun date.

I wish they had on line dating when I was younger before I met my ex husband. I would have loved it. It�s hard now because of time. And perhaps I shouldn�t speak too soon as i have not actually met up with any one yet. I�m just surprised at how fast it�s moving along. I don�t even have nice outfits any more, so that�s something I have to think about. What do girls wear when they meet you guys? I�ll find out where we are going first.

I think I will do well with dating. I work with people, so I can handle conversation and I am making it out to be about having a good time as opposed to meeting a soul mate.

Coffee date first! Meet them someplace safe and brief before you commit to a real date.

I agree with KML Juju. The one thing that stood out for me with all of my dates is that most people are quite different when you meet them than how they were online. I also figured out that the sooner I met someone, the better...rather than create too much of a �relationship� online beforehand. Makes it more awkward when you meet in person IMO. The exception I made to that rule was with the guy I am seeing now because we texted each other for about seven weeks before we met. But I think the difference is that I didn�t think we would ever meet (because of our age difference) so I was texting him the way I would a friend. We only met because I was bored one night and agreed to meet him up with him on a whim. Best laid plans...lol.

Anyway...have fun with it and be safe!!!

Thank you guys for the advice. I do not have a lot of experience dating - I tend to go straight into long term relationships - so balancing conversations with multiple guys feels weird to me. Not just cause of time issues but I expect getting romantic as well.

I know what your saying with creating a relationship in your head and I�m trying to avoid that as well. Talking on line or even on the phone is completely different from meeting someone. And i don�t want to be influenced by my own imagination and fantasy without looking at the actual real person (I did that with ex bf). The guys I am talking to are interested in texting and talking and communicating and want to know about me and that feels good because of being in a Lonely relationship with my ex husband and in a relationship with someone lazy and passive and rude last time around. I think about how other woman would have cheated on my ex husband or left. I�m glad I didn�t disappoint my son that way though. I am not gonna put up with that in a partner in the future.

It is fun for me though. I like having something to think about and a motivation and place to go to dress up and look nice. I like meeting knew people and it�s nice to have someone to think about a bit. It distracts me from other stuff in life.

I agree meet as soon as possible. I made that mistake one time of chatting it up way too much with someone before I met them. They were not what I expected.

First date should be coffee or drinks like happy hour. Personally I never met anyone for coffee. My reason was if I like them and was attracted meeting for coffee was not romantic (also if i wanted to kiss them it would have to be with coffee breath). If I liked the person and was attracted I always went for the kiss after the date. If I wasn't attracted they got a hug.

No dancing or dance lessons. Way too much for the first date.

I met one person for coffee. Turns out he was a total perv doing a quick once over to see if I had nice feet and I was suitable for a sexual relationship that happened between the houses of 10am and 2 pm on Saturday's. But I digress .

I do like the idea of an activity that is an ice breaker. May my hatchet guy may have not ended up to be quality, it was the perfect first date activity. I think doing something helps. I went to a Mets game on a first date. There was no attraction, but we enjoyed the game.

And I do agree to meeting fast. Better to find out there was no attraction early on rather than later. Or you don�t want to build something up in your mind and find out it wasn�t anything like you imagined

New Thread:

Moving on