Hi All,
If you want to, you can revisit my 15 months of posts under the newcomers thread. I'm not going to revisit it except to say "I'm Done!" I have done everything could, worked as hard as I could and tried everything I could to save the M. I no longer want to be married to her.
So now, I am the one pushing forward with the divorce - as fast as I can make it go. We had our first meeting with the mediator yesterday, and although he seems to be GREAT I am strapping in for a very bumpy ride. My STBXW is hanging on to a fantasy view of her life after D which is not only unreasonable, but impossible given our finances and cost structure. Behind the mediator, she has consulted with a big name aggressive lawyer....and so have I.
We are still living in the same house, but have separated bedrooms and are alternating weekends with the kids.
I'm going to try to stay off the boards as much as possible - it starts to consume me and I have a huge amount of work to do to get ready for the divorce. My w is emotional and tries to win arguments by making grand, vague and accusatory statements. My plan it to remain unemotional and have facts and figures available to counter any accusation she makes. ("You make WAY more that THAT" - "No, here are my pay stubs, all tabulated and summarized", etc.)
In parallel, I am trying to plan a new life, separate from her - and looking forward to it. This weekend, the kids and I are going to have fun together. Next weekend, I'm going on the hunt for a smaller cheaper house. The weekend after that I'm taking the boys camping.
Life is Good.
Take care
-Thinker
Glad that life is good.
Yeah, the mediation is rough, but you will come out of it on a new trajectory. Yes, documentation is key.
Sounds like you're in a good frame of mind.
Guiness, BTW...
He thought; therefore he am!
My STBXW is hanging on to a fantasy view of her life after D...My w is emotional and tries to win arguments by making grand, vague and accusatory statements.Read you lima-charlie. And if you Think it was bad before, you ain't seen nothing yet.
I'm going to try to stay off the boards as much as possible - it starts to consume meFortunately we all seem to have a slower pace down here at the bottom of the webpage
I agree with SP, it is a tad slower over here, but you will be in good company here Thinker. Good for you on moving on and doing fun things with the kids. Good luck on the mediation, I never had to do any, but I am thinking that it may happen soon as some changes need to be made in my sitch..
Shock
Thinker, you and I have very similar sitchs although I must say my STBXW is being much more fair. That almost hurts -- she so wants to be away she's giving away stuff she could win in court.
Or perhaps I'm just looking for things to complain about.
Good luck Thinker.
Welcome man. I get the not allowing the boards to consume you. But, this area is a slower paced one.
Hang in there. You and I are in the same place.
Hi. Thinker. Welcome...kinda
My w is emotional and tries to win arguments by making grand, vague and accusatory statements. My plan it to remain unemotional and have facts and figures available to counter any accusation she makes. ("You make WAY more that THAT" - "No, here are my pay stubs, all tabulated and summarized", etc.)
"Is that so?," "Uh huh," and
silence also work well at times.
Good plans, good PMA and, yes, "Life is Good."
Good Luck.
I keep hearing two statstically based recommendations:
1) You should wait at least a year after a d before getting involved in a new R.
2) It takes 3-5 years after the end of a significant R before you can comfortably exist in a new one without the old one impinging.
Any comments?
From what point do the stats measure these things? From the bomb? From the point where the LBS gives up? From the final divorce decree?
Yeah - as an engineer I think my first question is "what is the source of your data?"
My guess is I'm going to spend close to 3 years from Bomb to final D decree.
Wow, that is a frighteningly accurate article! Fits my ex, too. The land of "If Only" must be densely populated with WAS's...
Wow. I have no words.
I think the author met the SG.
From the article:
She admires and respects people who actually treat her badly. This is a fascinating aspect of the professional victim: They defend those who harm, exploit and bully them and vilify and lash out at those who want to help and care for them. She may fondly describe a relative or ex-boyfriend who sounds like a real S.O.B. and follow it up with, “but he’s such a good person.” Meanwhile, you bend over backward to tiptoe around her extreme sensitivities and she accuses you of “beating her down” and “not being supportive.” Huh?
Wow - does this strike home!
Thinker, I've wondered about my STBXW. All of her previous relationships ended as soon as they hit the sheets. I'm the only one who ever put the time in to get past her wall.
She's always admired her mom because she was the rock of the family while her dad worked two jobs but never brought any money home because he always stopped at the bar first.
So she grew up watching her mom play the martyr -- and she played it to the hilt.
Our M was reversed. I increasingly did the cooking, cleaning, running kids around so STBXW could work more and more.
I thought I was helping, but it isn't what she grew up watching.
I'm wondering as the years go on if she will be -- maybe not happier -- but more comfortable being the put-upon mom. Cooking, cleaning, handling the bills all on her own.
In a way it's going to be fascinating to watch. Of course, I'll have to lead by example with D7 and D11 to show them that's now how you "have to" live. That's her choice. It doesn't have to be theirs.
I keep hearing two statstically based recommendations:
1) You should wait at least a year after a d before getting involved in a new R.
2) It takes 3-5 years after the end of a significant R before you can comfortably exist in a new one without the old one impinging.
Any comments?
From what point do the stats measure these things? From the bomb? From the point where the LBS gives up? From the final divorce decree?
I am not really sure when the stats start measuring things but I do have to say even though I went through a lot prior to the divorce(2years of cr@p) I still wasn't ready to be wiith anyone else. I thought I was but looking back...I wasn't. I suggest you get really comfortable with yourself again.
The "guidelines I heard was 1 month for every year of marriage. That just about fit my timeline. However I believe everyone is different. Don't be in a rush. So I am currently 21 months post divorce and only really started getting out about a month and a half ago. We were married 19 years. Oh and having primary custody of 4 kids doesn' make that any easier.
kat
Thinker,
I keep hearing two statstically based recommendations:
1) You should wait at least a year after a d before getting involved in a new R.
2) It takes 3-5 years after the end of a significant R before you can comfortably exist in a new one without the old one impinging.
Any comments?
From what point do the stats measure these things? From the bomb? From the point where the LBS gives up? From the final divorce decree?
I'm all about 1) wait a year. I am not relationship-ready (sometimes wonder if I'm casual-dating ready!) One year alone. Just me. Rediscovering me and healing me. I gave your second point some real thought a while back: The Bomb? When she left? When she said she wanted a D? I'm going with the D date (2/09), but I'll remain open to serendipitous possibilities. Like I've said many times, I'm not gonna go looking. Just gonna live my life and see who shows up.
I've read this and thought about it and my feeling is why close any door? I mean if I'm out tomorrow and someone beautiful catches my eye and we somehow hit it off, I think it'd be silly to say to myself "hey, it hasn't been enough time yet."
That being said, the first few months we were separated I was DESPERATE to find someone and I'm guessing women can sense that.
A friend said as soon as she stopped looking for someone, he usually shows up.
CTH I have been told that very same thing many times.
Love will find you when you stop looking and slap you upside the head when you least expect it LOL.
I can relate to being desperate myself. Been looking for a replacement for something that is almost impossible to replace. Feels like I am trying to put some square blocks into a round hole at times.
Wait a year? Pffft! One year brings me one notch closer to being half a century old. I aint getting any younger or better looking LOL. So I can relate to you being desperate.
You made a good point about women sensing us being desperate. Never really thought about it. Any women here that can comment on this? Would like to hear your input. Are us recently divorced guys really that transparent?
As a rule of thumb, I instinctively disregard all rules of thumb.
1 month to a year -- c'mon, what's the rationale for that, apart from the fact that it makes division easy?
Just be honest with yourself. If you're into the lady, for who and what she is (as apart from being into her for who and what she isn't), then forward, onward, upward. If you're just out to do the Wild Thang, and she's okay with that, then buy the ticket and take the ride.
But to set some kind of arbitrary functional relation, be getting to know someone and liking the getting-to-know, and then go, "Whoa! Now, I was married 18 years, and it's only been 17 months. Call me the Hi-Dee-Ho Man, but I'd better put the brakes on," just flies in the face of all human reality.
I keep hearing two statstically based recommendations:
1) You should wait at least a year after a d before getting involved in a new R.
2) It takes 3-5 years after the end of a significant R before you can comfortably exist in a new one without the old one impinging.
Any comments?
While statistics are good... don't forget what statistics really are >>> GENERALIZATIONS. Mathematically computed.
IMHO, I think that people who have taken the time to correct their mistakes, done their 180's and learned their lessons... these people can exclude themselves from generalizations >>> provided they HAVE done the work.
Generally, it is good to take some time off to discover yourself. Make sure you know what you want. Hold onto your changes and discoveries. If you can do that... then the time limits do not apply. Here's the thing that people forget: time limits are man made restrictions. You will be ready for another R when you're ready. This depends on the person i.e. YOU and on the circumstances. Do not restrict yourself and do not have the expectation that when X period finishes a new R will simply pop up.
What you will find Thinker is that when you're busy enjoying life, and your surroundings, women that want what you've got will pop out of the woodwork. No need to write them off prematurely.
Enjoy life and take advantage of the opportunities.
CTH,
I've read this and thought about it and my feeling is why close any door? I mean if I'm out tomorrow and someone beautiful catches my eye and we somehow hit it off, I think it'd be silly to say to myself "hey, it hasn't been enough time yet."
I agree. That would be my example of someone "showing up."
A friend said as soon as she stopped looking for someone, he usually shows up.
I believe this is true. And I believe when one stops looking (i.e., stops
needing an R) one is truly
ready for one again.
Gnosis, I agree with
everything you said except this:
While statistics are good... don't forget what statistics really are >>> GENERALIZATIONS. Mathematically computed.
Staistics are facts. Individual facts compiled into demonstrated evidence of across-the-board, common fact.
I suggest you get really comfortable with yourself again.
^^^
Love will find you when you stop looking and slap you upside the head when you least expect it LOL.
Yep.
Wait a year? Pffft! One year brings me one notch closer to being half a century old.
Hey!
Good posting Gnosis.
I have corrected my own mistakes and own them.
I have a lot of 180s but you cant completely change who you are over night. But the bad parts are gone.
I have done my homework about myself and my XW and can see where things went wrong.
I never got the whole "discover yourself" thing. That may be what my MLC batchitcrazy XW is doing now but I knew who I was way before then. I just didnt own my flaws like I should. "finding yourself" sounds too much like tree-hugging hippie crap to me LOL. I have my latitude and longitude. It's where I am.
Now I will be honest. Am I over my ex-wife? Yes and no. I will always think of her every day for the rest of my life and it will always hurt me until the day I die. BUT I will not let that ruin the fact that I can love another woman just as much if not more and be happy with another and make another woman happy. I can also function perfectly as a husband to some one else.
I love women. Ironically I love them even more now that I am divorced and have been hurt by one. Crazy right? But it's how I feel.
And hell YES I am ready to fall in love again. My X is never coming back. That is clear now. So I am sitting here waiting for my mathematically computed generalization of love to come true LOL. Damn, time to lay off the Kentuky whisky and coke zero LOL.
Sorry for the rant and sorry for the hijack.
To paraphrhrase SP, I'm hanmging out in "big EAST coast city for the night"
lots of fun. Not missing stbxw at all, but definitely noticing all of the local lovelies.
Following up on the discussions above, however, I don't think I'll be ready until I have at least established myself in my own house. Hard to feel independent when one is "separated in house"
Hey Thinker, good to hear from you again! I was following your thread for quite some time and then you went on break from the boards. Your wife seems really messed up and probably hanging on to the fantasy relationship with the om, just like my wife! I saw how much time and effort you put into your marriage and how she never tried at all. Again, just like my wife.
I decided to move on and I proved it to myself and her when I forced her to speed up the last paert of our final decree. She was confused but it did not really phase her. 2 weeks later I started seeing a woman from my divorce group. It is very refreshing to be with someone who actually understands how to work in a relationship. I am a hot commodity and she knows it! We both have an understanding about infidelity and we have both been through it. It has been about 13 months since the bomb and it feels ok to me.
Last week, on the instructions of the mediator, we met with a realtor to discuss what we would have to do to sell our house. Her instructions gave a list of things to fix, and rooms to clean out in preparation for staging. Today, I started that process - packing my books on some of the shelves into packing boxes.
And got a look at the future...
STBXW hovered over me while I was packing - picking through the books as I packed them to make sure I wasn't secretly stealing any books that she considered hers.
I offered her some of the boxes so that she could do the same - all of the books on that shelf have to go - but she refused. Instead of packing up her books she was straightening them out on the shelves to fill in the holes made when I had removed mine.
She still doesn't think that she is really going to sell and move out of this house - or should I say that in the back of her mind she is still holding on to the idea that she is going to keep the house (and I am going to move out).
The math is pretty blatant and obvious - neither of us is going to be able to afford this house. Unless she wins the lottery, there is no way she is going to be able to afford to buy me out of the house, get a loan for the remaining principle, and make the resulting payments. The mediator has even told her that, but she is still playing her favorite game - acting naive and helpless and confused whenever she has to make a decision that she doesn't like.
thinker,
not sure if you remember me. Our situations were similar. I haven't posted in months, but I would stop in from time to time to see your status. I was hoping for your success, but I must admit, I gave you a 20% chance....
I too had enough around christmas time and started the divorce process. What has happened since then:
I bought my wife out of our house, gave her half the equity. She wanted out, I wasn't moving.
She bought her own house a half mile away. She moves out on May 21st. Looking forward to it, but will miss my sons..
Custody: I have our boys every saturday, sunday and monday. Wasn't going to do this if I didn't have my 3 sons close to 50% of the time.
Try to get as much handled between you and your wife before the lawyers get involved. I am already 12k into this(6k for me, 6k for her). And most of the negotiation has been between my W and I(custody, vacations, holidays, etc..)
Last thing we really need to negotiate is my pension, 401k, alimony(maintenance).
Rise above it all, it will get nasty...The hatred and disdain for her is still there. It will subside over time, I am sure. But for my sons, I have risen above it all. Even though she is out most weekends till 3am with god knows who..
I act as happy as I can be when I am home. Your kids can pick up on everything. Don't fight at home..That is the part that hurts them most. We told them about a month ago. They are doing ok--it is a concept to them now, reality comes in another couple weeks.
Remember, right now it is about them, not you. I see your mind is on the dating piece already..You need to be there for them now. That adds an extra headache that you don't need right now. The best advice anyone has gave me is, "I you are ok, your kids will be ok." So far that hasn't failed me.
Forget trying to figure her out. You won't. I married a nut, so did you. It is what it is. Time to move on....
Good luck...
So, 1 day before the next mediation session. I've been working to collect all of the calculations, budgets, documents etc that I had as homework from our last meeting...
...and she hasn't even started yet.
...and then she asks if we should just cancel because "there's just so much else going on..."
uhhh...NO!
She's not changing her mind. She just doesn't want to face the realities or do the work that goes along with it.
Frustrating!
I guess it's no surprise that after making me do all the work IN the marriage, and then making me do all the work ON the marriage, she's now making me do all the work to get OUT of the marriage.
Thinker,
I guess it's no surprise that after making me do all the work IN the marriage, and then making me do all the work ON the marriage, she's now making me do all the work to get OUT of the marriage.
Unfortunately, sadly well put.
Well, it is now looking like the Thinker vs. Mrs. Thinker mediation is going nowhere and is about to crash and burn.
So far we have fundamentally managed to agree on NOTHING except that we are getting divorced and are going to have to sell the house.
The core sticking point - Custody. I'm not backing down from full joint custody (no way, no how, I'll take that to court), and she refuses to discuss anything except "every other weekend and one evening a week"
Her argument..."I'm the mother" (yea, and I'm the father, so get over it)
She refuses to have any discussion on the topic - just clams up and sits there.
The only thing she wants to agree on is that we are going to have a "transition period" where she remains the full time stay at home mom and the kids live with her. Her definition of a "transition period" is 3 or more years! I am refusing. My stance is that we make the transition when we move out of the house.
She's also balking on any sort of employment for her. She's currently employed part time and working a large number of hours (supported by me) on her own startup business, but she is refusing to commit to having any income from either of those sources because "the kids need her as a full time mom" (Yes, I know - contradictory)
In parallel with mediation, we were attending joint C sessions to work out how we were going to coparent going forward. Yesterday she pulled out of those sessions because (in her words) she "just can't stand to be near me any more"
Basically, she does not want to have any more discussions regarding the terms of divorce with me, especially not with a rational 3rd party observer in the room.
Time to batten down the hatches. I just asked my L to send me the final retainer agreement.
Does anyone else have experience in a situation where the W was contesting the H's claim for joint physical custody?
(ie I DO NOT want to become the "Non-Custodial" parent, but my w is unwilling to agree to join/joint custody)
Yes, my wife did the same thing. In the end she had more money than I do so I decided to settle out of court. I ended up with every other weekend plus one overnight during the week plus one night a week of visitation for 2 hours. I just could not bare going to court and possibly losing more than what I already have. Call me weak or whatever but I do not and did not have the cash to drag it out any longer. My state is "pro mother" too. So I cut my loses and ended the fight.
Hi Thinker,
>>T="Does anyone else have experience in a situation where the W was contesting the H's claim for joint physical custody?
(ie I DO NOT want to become the "Non-Custodial" parent, but my w is unwilling to agree to join/joint custody)"
Even though I was the W in this situation, I do have some experience in going thru the courts to determine custody %.
I'll leave you my # in the alt.
>>@T="...she's now making me do all the work to get OUT of the marriage."
You're right, no surprise there!
Take Care,
Sunny
Thinker ~
Dig in on those demands. You are doing the right thing. The. Right. Thing.
Cheers ~
Greek
Just signed the retainer agreement with a pitt bull L and put it (together with a large check) in the mail.
Let your L work for you now. It is futile for you to try and negotiate with your wife the way she is now (illogical and selfish). You are doing the right thing by spending the big bucks so as to get equal parenting time. It is what is best for the kids most of the time.
I went through a similar thing and ended up getting a superb lawyer who filed with me as the petitioner in the D. I believe that being on the offensive gave me better negotiating power even though she was very angry. I was then able to have her agree to a 50/50 shared parenting plan that we signed off on pretty quick. And, by my taking a stronger stance to protect myself and the kids best interest (equal time with both parents), it caused her to rethink some about our marriage. She noticed a change in me - I was not a pushover whimp. She was then on the fence for many months before I realized that I would not want her back and I finally had my L complete the financial negotiations with her L and the D was finalized.
Sorry, I did not realise that you didn't have a L yet. I got a L right from the start and that is probably the only way I ended up with an overnight in the middle of the week. The mediation was court ordered before we could go to court. What a waste of money!
I meant to say... good job on getting a pitbull lawyer!
I've consulted with several lawyers as early as 8 months ago, and had picked this one out. So far I've been paying by the hour rather than forking over the retainer.
Now I've gone the rest of the way.
One thing I learned to make the retainer go further was to work with the paralegal on many of the minor details. She was $120 an hour and the L was $300 an hour.
I hope your L is not a shark, but someone who will work first with the welfare of the kids in mind.
Thinker,
You're sounding strong and determined.
Joint custody?
Stand. Your. Ground.
In your corner all the way!
My God she's been making me crazy.
It's only as I step back during this process that I see how badly I've let myself be gaslighted for the past X years. I've been listening to her negative views of me and her unfailing status as a victim for so long that I find it hard not to believe it myself.
But it's all bull.
This morning she went into victim mode once again - blaming me for being unreasonable and selfish and for causing mediation to break down and for throwing out money and risking the future of our kids - all because I refuse to agree to less than joint custody.
It's hard to believe she can be that one sided. She truly sees a fair arrangement that is in the best interest of the kids as being one sided and selfish on my part.
I can't even discuss it with her because she is so fixed in her opinion and locked into her own crazy belief in her status as the victim.
This morning I had to stop the argument she started and walk away. Discussing things with her reminds me of the old "War Games" quote: "The only way to win the game is not to play".
She visited her L yesterday. I called this morning and scheduled a meeting with mine.
Crazy.
She is only throwing a tantrum because she is not getting her way. My wife has done the same things. You are right... just don't play the game with her. Let the lawyers do the talking for you.
I have struggled all morning to think of something to say that doesn't sound highly critical of your wife and can't think of anything. So, I will just say that I am sorry you are going through this. I wish she were a more reasonable person for the sake of everyone involved.
The L's are the best way to negotiate. It gives both of you a much better chance of coparenting amicably after the divorce. My XW and I have no conflicts now and life could not be much better.
She's just pissed because you're messing up her game plan.
She's just pissed because you're messing up her game plan.
Dead on, Antlers. Dead on.
Thinker ~ she's in full tilt entitled princess mode and you are not going along with it as you once did. It's rocking her world. Big Girl Panties...
Greek
Greek,
I think you are right, except that I don't think she is capable of feeling her world rocking or of putting on the big girl panties.
I predict she's going to bunker down in victim mode and call in air strikes from her L until the money runs out.
Such is life. I can handle it.
Act like you are writing a story -- one that you'll read in 10 years and be proud of.
That kind of attitude is strength...a healing medicine. It'll get you through it.
And any other damn thing you ever have to deal with!
Do you know what the usual settlement regarding custody is in your state?
There doesn't appear to be a "usual" settlement. From what I have been told the guideline is "in the best interest of the children". Until recently the courts often interpreted "in the best interest of the children" as meaning that the kids stayed with mom. In the past years, however, things have been changing and joint legal / joint physical custody has become more normal.
Courts have recently been deciding that "in the best interest of the children" means equal access to both parents.
Demand that you have the right to be their father. Just because she doesn't want to be married doesn't mean they should lose their father, too. D*mn that woman.
It's stbx-Mrs. Thinker's night with the kids, so I'm out at a local bar, drinking a beer, eating fish tacos, and filling out the paperwork to file for a divorce...
Life is good!
My wife filed on me last month, it sucks but not allot you can do but go with it. I tried for four years, I still do not understand how they just can't forgive, let go the past and work on things. But that's there choice.
Thinker,
You won't be able to get full custody. You will always lose and cost tens of thousands. Unless you can prove an unfit mother...
What you can get is joint custody obviously. You have no choice but to fight for extra time in court. I told my wife, no divorce unless I get 50% of the time with the boys. We are splitting the week, every week. Stay strong.
My wife filed on me last month, it sucks but not allot you can do but go with it. I tried for four years, I still do not understand how they just can't forgive, let go the past and work on things. But that's there choice.
It's simple. She needs to justify what she is doing in her own mind. Wrong or right, it is her excuse to forgive herself for destroying a family.
In my case she really did not have any excuses at all because I was always a good husband to her.
So what did she do? She Used the old MLC standby "It's not you it's me". And "I just don't love you anymore".
What a freaking joke. Don't try to apply logic to it. There is none in their mind. Logic goes out the window.
Just understand that there is little to nothing you can do about her. Just take care of yourself and stop trying to figure her out. You will only drive yourself insane. Ask me how I know.
Hi Thinker. I hope you get joint custody...THAT, I believe, is in the best interest of the kids. Chillin' with a brew and some tacos...sounds relaxing...even though you're working on the paperwork that you are.
It's stbx-Mrs. Thinker's night with the kids, so I'm out at a local bar, drinking a beer, eating fish tacos, and filling out the paperwork to file for a divorce...
Life is good!
OK, this sounds suspiciously like you are doing an internet based divorce. If this is in fact the case...STOP RIGHT NOW!
You will regret this years later when she goes for your retirement when you least expect it years down the line.
If you need details then ask but DO NOT do the cheap internet divorce thing! Big mistake.
Ask me why if you are not familiar with them. They are a joke.
Nope, no worries. The forms were information that was requested by the expensive pitt bull of a Lawyer to whom I have already paid a large retainer.
Has anyone seen a study or a good article on why full joint custody is good for the kids?
I am doing my homework and am looking for material to support my position that the kids need both of us on an equal basis.
http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/jointbenefits.phpThere seem to be some references and links there...
That was an awesome link BobbiJo!
Also, I cant imagine how a single parent that has full custody has any "adult time" for themselves.
No problem! That link itself connects to several on the importance of a father in kids' lives, which is always a good thing!
Thanks for the info.
Where I live, joint legal custody is almost a given. I am fighting for joint physical custody. The law here states that there is a "Parent of Primary Domicile" and a "Parent of Alternate Domicile". The assumption is that the children live with the PPD, the PPD does the general parenting, and the PAD has scheduled visitation days.
from my part...no way.
The alternative is to legally agree to 2 Parents of Primary Domicile. In other words, both parents are equal and the kids live alternately with both parents.
Unfortunately, since I worked to support the family, the presumption is that my W is the primary care giver and therefore would be the PPD - even though financial reality says that we will both have to be working full time after the d.
I have to fight (and win) in order to get equal time with the kids...(and I will)
I can handle it.
Thinker,
I have to fight (and win) in order to get equal time with the kids...(and I will)
Damn straight.
Damn straight.
Lurking, pulling for ya and praying for ya!
This morning I met with my L and signed the papers to file for a D.
It's a relief.
The process has now officially begun and the clock is ticking on the courts mandated timeline.
Mrs. T was never going to file. She has too much invested in continuing to blame and project at me, while continuing to have me support her. -- No more.
Sorry for the outcome. You know you tried.
Strength and Honor
So, this morning I file for D...
And then this evening, as I'm boarding a plane for Germany, I get upgraded to business class because economy class is full...
Karma?
I'm in Germany next week for work, but I'm flying on friday because this is stbx Mrs. T's weekend with the kids.
This weekend in Germany is MINE!
Spent the weekend in Germany hanging out with old friends. Most of them were friends of ours as a married couple, and strongly friends of Mrs. T's. I was a bit apprehensive that I could lose this group in the D, but nope, that's not happening.
It seems that when they figured out what she was doing (a while ago), they tried to talk her out of it. When they did so, she dropped contact with them. As most of them have themselves also (in the past) gone through a crazy divorce, they are completely able to understand what's going on.
It was a great, open weekend full of support, relaxation and good German beer.
Mr. T:
Glad that you had a good weekend but sorry that you had to be the one to file. I suspect that when the year long physical separation in my sitch expires later this year, I will likely be the one to file as well. But I suspect that you and the kids deserve closure on this - just as my kids and I do.
But you have put the effort into trying to make things right. In the future, you can look your kids in the eyes and say with all sincerity that you did all you could. I seriously doubt your W could say that and mean it from the heart.
BTW - which part of Germany are you in now?
On my way home from the big beer drinking city in the south of Germany. It's good to be going home to see the boys.
While I was there stbxw sent me a proposal for a 2 week rotating 50/50 parenting schedule that she wants to try out starting as soon as I get back. In her words, this is a proposal that is "reasonable" - unlike those "ridiculous" ones that I want - funny thing is that it is EXACTLY like one of the schedules I proposed
She also worded the proposal with a bunch of demands and things she refuses to do to support me on the days that are mine - except that everything which she is "demanding" is stuff which I planned on doing anyway. They are just normal things like "if it's your day, then YOU are responsible for feeding them" - no! Really??
. Basically she is rudely demanding that I accept exactly the agreement that I would have proposed.
So...I accept.
Part of me is just wondering what she is up to.
That is good! Get that thing signed right away, after talking to your lawyer, of course.
Nothing to sign yet. This is just an agreement to "try" a 50/50 split while we are still negotiating the D.
But it's still a step in the right direction.
So word has been getting around about our D, and my STBXW heard of a neighbor of ours gossiping about it and is now (rightfully so) worried about our kids hearing about the D first from someone other than us.
So now she wants to tell them -- as soon as possible.
Tomorrow.
I'm hesitant.
So far we have not settled anything about the D. We will have NO answers for the kids on any of the questions that will be important to them: where are we going to live, when, etc.
I have also been contemplating how and what we are going to tell them. I really do think that she should own it, but I know that she won't and never will. She's not capable of taking responsibility. I'm not trying to DB or get her to look at herself and change any more. I just want out in the way that causes the least damage to my kids.
Also, it's not true that she is the one who wants the D right now. I also want it, for my own sake. Anything other than "We have just decided that..." will just result in us fighting over the issues of the past, but this time in front of the kids.
I don't want to expose them to the adult issues any more than I have to...
So "we have decided that..." it is.
Any suggestions from those of you who have been there?
As far as I know, the kids still don't know for sure. D11 has figured it out, I think, especially with STBXW doing so much work on the house to fix it up.
We haven't had that big "We are getting D talk."
I was not going to be a part of it because STBXW is the one who wants it and she filed. I think I can answer questions later.
I've never brought it up and she hasn't either.
I also haven't seen anything on it in four weeks now -- but I'm not thinking anything has changed. I have the kids for the next seven days and I'm betting she has a couple of L trips to make.
Doesn't matter who wants the divorce. Mine wanted it. I didn't. Have the talk together with the kids. You don't want them in the middle. They will figure it out someday. Right now they need to happy parents or a least two parents that are acting happy...
We haven't had that big "We are getting D talk."
I was not going to be a part of it because STBXW is the one who wants it and she filed. I think I can answer questions later.
Man, I'd be there. Let her talk to the kids with you there, and then you talk to the kids with her there. Don't lie to them to appease her, and don't let them think you want this if you don't! Even if it makes her mad. Tell them the truth...don't let them think you want this if you don't!
That's what I did. I'd do it the same way again too. She got pissed when I told the kids that I did not want this. So be it. I was gonna be honest with them. It was awful...it could have been worse though...we could have slpit them from crotch to eyeball with a dull deer antler!
Yes. Be there.
For us, we did not talk about whose decision it was.
I did let her really say much of it, though.
Yes, they had all sorts of questions. And they asked questions that they hoped would have the logical answer "oh, we shouldn't get divorced after all."
"Do you love each other." Yes, we do, but the marriage wasn't working.
"Am I going to see you." Yes. They were afraid I think that I was going to disappear from their lives. Tell them that isn't going to happen.
At some point they asked HER if I had a girlfriend. Nice. She handled it gracefully though - I know I can trust her when it comes to my relationship with the boys.
Tell them what you know - someone's going to move, but you don't know when yet. Give them a lot of advance notice for the changes that are going to happen.
They caught on to our money worries too. The boys' "family therapist" said that they would ask questions about the basics. Food to eat, etc. (Actually, if WE would be OK).
I guess I think the best thing is to tell them the basics of what's going on - we are going to get a divorce - without a lot of detail. Then let THEM ask questions about what they're concerned about. Address their questions and fears.
Yes, be there. These are your kids. Their well being is first, they have nothing to do with the divorce or who initiated it.
Thinker - how's it going?
I'm doing OK. A bit tired and distracted, and wishing that I could hurry the divorce along, but otherwise OK.
I hate this "In House Separation"
Better than limbo
but...
Yeah, I bet that does suck. I had the benifit of moving out 2 days after the bomb.
I could leave any time I want to, but doing so would jeopardize my chances of getting 50% custody and would give her an argument that I am agreeing to her keeping the house.
I would also have to continue to pay all expenses for this house with her living in it, while I additionally pay all expenses for myself living in a separate place. This would break me while giving her exactly the sort of "divorced" but all-expenses paid lifestyle she wants.
Nope, can't move out.
I would not move out in your sitch either. My wife makes a lot more money than I do and I could not afford the house on my own. Of course, now I have no house.
Stbx Mrs. T is so determined to angry and resentful that I am finding it comical.
She's angry because it is 'her weekend' with the boys and Iam in the house this weekend instead of dissapearing somewhere. (It's my house too)
She's angry that the boys want to spend time with me.
She was angry that I went to S7's baseball game this morning, and was angry that S5 wanted to come with me.
And then she was angry this afternoon because I was leaving the house to go out and she had suddenly decided that she wanted to go out and needed me to watch the boys.
She's even angry because I'm working to fix up the house for sale and this is disrupting things in the house a bit.
What a miserable path she's choosing for herself.
Had a great fathers day - just did all sorts of stuff with the boys: breakfast, pet shopping, swimming pool, movies.
While at breakfast with the boys at a diner on Fathers Day morning:
S7: "I Spy with my little eye something that is gray"
me and S5: "is it near? is it far? is it big? is it small? etc..." trying to guess.
Me: "OK, we give up. What is it?"
S7: (giggling loudly) "It's your hair!"
Predictably but painfully, stbxw is now denying (once again) that we have agreed to a 50/50 custody sharing. She is bitterly claiming that the current 50/50 schedule is only a test, not an agreement, and that it "isn't even working".
Her reasoning for why it isn't working...? because I still expect her to be responsible for the boys during normal business hours when I am working.
I've told her that I support her going back to work at any time, and that we'll find a way to pay for child care so she can do this, but she doesn't like that answer. She wants me to try to care for the kids during the work day and work full time to bear 100% of the financial responsibility at the same time (and of course to fail at it).
+
She wants me to try to care for the kids during the work day and work full time to bear 100% of the financial responsibility at the same time
= Entitlement Program
Right Coach,
It's that, plus she is trying to set up 50/50 custody to be such an impossible task for me that I fail at it (or admit failure and quit)
Thinker,
I pick up the kids on saturday morning. I have them thru tuesday morning. so the only day I have to worry about child care is monday. Somedays I can work from home, somedays I will get after school care. Seems to be working so far. People say I am giving up my weekends, however, I have the best kid time. I still have friday nights to go out..
I wouldn't have any trouble giving up my weekends like that. How does your stbxw feel about it? she's giving up the fun time with the kids.
So here's one out there for anyone who is reading and wants to weigh in.
My stbxw just threatened to use her L (and in her own words, to "spend thousands of dollars of our money") to prevent me from taking S2 with me and the other 2 boys on a camping trip this weekend.
I've been planning a trip for the past month. It's an easy one - drive to a flat, pine-wooded state park near us, pitch a tent near the car, and hang out for the weekend. I want to take all 3 boys because I think it will be fun for S2 to come along. There's no rivers or lakes near our campsite, no traffic since we are at the end of a dirt road, etc. A friend of mine is coming with me, so there will be 2 adults.
This evening, a month after I originally told her I was taking them, she said "I'm not comfortable with you taking him and I see no reason for him to go". When I replied that I disagreed and was going to be taking him, she threatened to go to her L to get her L to stop me.
As an aside, just what does she think the L is going to do?
When I brushed that off she escalated to "If anything happens, that's IT!"
That's what? if he get's hurt then you'll ... divorce me??
But this leaves me between a bit of a rock and a hard place.
Do I want him to come with us? Yes, I think he'd have a great time and be perfectly safe. Probably safer than he would be at home where there are cars, stairs, doors that slam, and pools to fall into.
Am I concerned that she will use this (Endangering him by taking him camping) as an argument in the custody case? YES!
Am I willing to leave him with her? Yes. In the grand scheme of things it's not this one weekend is not that big of a deal. I'm willing to be flexible, but...
Do I want to set a precedent that she can dictate what I can or can't do with the boys during my time with them? NO!
Do I want her to be able to argue during the coming custody battle that I don't really take care of ALL of the boys during my time with them, since I "ALWAYS leave him with her"? - NO!
It's kind of like whether or not to negotiate with a terrorist.
Anyway, I'm interested to hear what any of you think...
Take all of your boys camping. Be careful and have a great time!
Take him!! You're damned if you do (your exposing him to "untold" risk), damned if you don't (you never take him anywhere). Do what you think is right. To he!! with what she thinks!
Take him (she is bluffing) and next time do not tell her what you will be doing with your time with them. I never tell My exW what we are doing.
This I agree with
...do not tell her what you will be doing with your time with them.
This I don't agree with, but just for my own reasons. I want to know where my kids are. I would expect either of us to tell the other if we are taking the boys out of town for the weekend.
I mean, go ahead and tell her, if she asks.
Thinker,
I agree with gima, v1olin, and bright.
Take them all.
She is trying to intimidate and bully.
Without a leg to stand on.
And that intimidates her.
imo
I went middle of the road. I didn't back down, or even discuss NOT taking him. Last night I did, however, print out the info from the park and show her where we were going to be camping (no nearby water, no nearby roads, etc.) and described the basic safety precautions I'll be taking (ie 1 adult always with the kids, no camp fire with a 2-year old walking around,etc. - nothing more than I would have done otherwise).
She's a bully. Good job standing up to that. Have fun camping!
Greek
Yes, she is, and since threatening to D me no longer works, she has switched to using her L as the threat.
It's like she has latched onto her L as a protective parent figure who can make it all better.
...doesn't bode well for our future coparenting relationship.
Do you have a current visitation agreement in place? If so, is this weekend yours to have with the kids? If it is and you aren't taking them across country or even to another state then I don't think she has a leg to stand on in telling you that you can't take them camping. In fact I don't think you even had to tell her your plans in the first place.
Is she always this paranoid about everything? Yikes!
BA
Thinker,
She doesn't see it as giving up the fun with the kids. I do alot of coaching of sports with them. She has never had much interest in sports. She is trying to get her realestates license. (she has failed the class and has to take it again) Most of that work is done on the weekends. She really doesn't get that is when most of the quality time happens.
As far as the camping trip: My wife is taking our 3 sons to italy in August. i could try and stop it. I don't really trust her right now in her state of mind. She is going with her parents. i spoke with my lawyer and she said you would lose. Camping won't do anything, she can't stop it and a judge would laugh her out of the courtroom....
I'm in the car headed out on the camping trip - all 3 boys in the back.
Yes, she is, and since threatening to D me no longer works, she has switched to using her L as the threat.
It's like she has latched onto her L as a protective parent figure who can make it all better.
...doesn't bode well for our future coparenting relationship.
Mine did the same thing. Whenever things didn't go the way she wanted them to, she always threatened me with her lawyer. She drew him like a gun!
I finally started telling her to take her threats and shove em'!
Been there.
This phase is pretty rough, things can smooth out afterwards.
Back from the camping trip - safe and sound and a good time was had by all.
I am, however, unfortunately starting to see the influence she has on the boys. The older one takes responsibility for her emotions, and the younger one tries to tell her what he thinks she wants to hear.
On the way out of town, S7 asks me "Why are we taking S2?" When I answered "Because I want him to come" he responds "But it is making Mommy sad, so you should have left him at home"
On the way back from the trip I overhear S5 on the phone with her. He said "S2 was unhappy all the time and he kept getting hurt" - a complete fabrication on both parts (S2 did bump his head on the picnic table once, fall while running, etc - but no more than a normal 2-year old gets hurt during a weekend of playing hard - and he was happy and smiling through the whole weekend). I called him on it - loud enough that she could hear me through the phone, but It frightens me that he thinks this is what she wants to hear and is willing to say it.
This is how things get fabricated and used against you...
Hi All,
Wow, has it been a long time since I've been on here. In the meantime, life has been great (with a few tough moments such as when we told the kids).
STBX Mrs. T is still angry and bitter and projecting it all on me, but I pretty much ignore it now. I've taken 2 awesome vacations in the last month - one with the kids and one without. The D process is moving ahead, and I am finding myself shocked at the mountains of paperwork it is requiring and generating.
I had to attend a mandatory "Parenting Education" seminar in at the courthouse this evening. State law mandates a 2-hour course for everyone who has children and is getting divorced. It's a pretty good session focusing on keeping the kids out of the middle of the divorce. The interesting thing about the class, however, was the demographics...
In order to keep tensions in the room as low as possible, they separate the class - some sessions are for Plaintiffs only, and others are only for Defendants. The material is the same, just the audience is different. As you may remember, even though I fought the divorce forever, I was the one who finally ended up filing, so I am the Plaintiff.
There were 27 people in my class.
4 of them were men...!
Does this mean that 85% of the divorces in my county are filed by women???
I was shocked when I looked around and realized it.
---
On another, positive note, I had a pleasant surprise when I joined Match.com a couple of weeks ago. Within a few short weeks I have been approached by and asked out by more attractive, educated, intelligent and fun women than I can possibly fit into the short times that I have between work and my days as a parent.
This is probably one of the primary reasons I haven't been on this site in a while - I've gotten too busy answering their mails...
Hope all is well - I'll stick around. It just may not be that often.
Does this mean that 85% of the divorces in my county are filed by women???
Seems like "newcomers" is the majority men right now.
This is probably one of the primary reasons I haven't been on this site in a while - I've gotten too busy answering their mails...
Well then get off the computer, call and set up a date.
My oldest son is on a three week hiking excursion out West currently.
Cheers
Well then get off the computer, call and set up a date.
Already done that too!
Thinker,
Just my opinion....I would wait a bit to date, until the dust settles from this mess.
In my 10-week rebuilding class they suggested you wait at least a year. You have to learn to be alone again before you really know who you are and what you can give to a relationship and what you want out of a relationship. I've found that to be true. I separated in May of 2009 and divorced in May of 2010. The wisdom and knowledge I've found in this time has been amazing. I can say I know who I am, I take responsibilty for my faults in the marriage, and my heart is no longer broken.
I don't think I represent the popular opinion either "here" or in society where it seems to be "move on and find someone else." You have to find yourself first.....
Good luck in the days ahead.
So just a quick update. Not much has really happened in the past month or so. The court timeline is ticking away. STBX and I are still living together - mostly amicable. We cooperate well (as we always have) where the day to day raising of the kids are concerned. We are following the basic rotating pattern we have been on since April: she cares for the kids during the day while I'm at work, and then we split the evenings and weekends 50/50. I'm with the kids on the weekend, she takes over Monday and Tues, then I have Wed and Thurs, then she has the weekend, then I have Mon and Tues, etc. It all seems to work well, EXCEPT when any discussion over the future occurs.
She has remained emphatic that this pattern can in no way work once we are no longer living in the same house. Her lawyer just filed an official proposal for parenting time that gives me visitation only every other weekend (Fri PM to Sun PM) and on Wednesday evenings. I've maintained that I won't accept anything less than 50/50 shared parenting.
Any attempt to discuss shared parenting ends up with her going from calm to angry in 0.5 seconds and using any tactic in the emotional abuse book to end the conversation in her favor - yelling, blaming, mimiking (yes, like a 4-year old would do), belittling, name calling (Yes, I'm a %^^%$#@@#%^&*), gas-lighting (yes, I'm the narcissist).
Every now and then after a period of cooperation I start to think of her as a rational adult and try to discuss the terms of the divorce with her. (see above). I'm learning not to do that.
In the mean time she doesn't seem to be making any attempt at all to look for work. She's educated and employable and works part time, but does not seem to understand that my salary supports one household, but won't support 2. Legally she is going to have to go back to work, but I know she really doesn't want to. I've offered to increase the amount of child care we have right now so she can get started, but any discussion like this results only in anger and deflection on her part (see above). Oh well. In the long run it's her loss, but it means that she is going to drag the court process on even longer.
She is dating, which as far as I am concerned is a good thing. She's going out frequently and I can bemusedly track the progress of a relationship by her moods. When the relationship is going well she wants to sell our house as quickly as possible - and we start making progress. When the relationship ends she drags her feet on the home sale and any discussion about selling the house results in anger and deflection on her part (see above
).
I've been dating lightly as well; couple of first dates - all of which were fun and light-hearted and enjoyable. So far no significant relationships, but I'm fine with that. I'm in no hurry and I'm enjoying things as they are. I've made a point of telling each of the women I meet exactly what my situation is (Not yet divorced, still under the same roof) prior to any date so that it doesn't surprise them later.
And the court timeline keeps ticking. I've been propounded with massive amounts of requests by her lawyer, so it appears I am going to have to defend my ability as a parent (why should a man have to fight just for equal custody?), defend my income (surely I'm earning more than I am) and defend my assets (those accounts that I had before we were married, never touched during the marriage, and still have - but which would go a ways toward keeping STBX from having to go back to work) all while refuting her claims of unemployability.
Several court deadlines are coming up in the next months, so the paperwork is certainly keeping me busy.
Wow, your W sounds like my STBXW to a T.
One thing I would suggest. Be reasonable in negotiating your D, but don't offer her more than she's entitled to unless you are getting something in return. This is not the time to turn into the "Nice Guy."
Not suggesting you be a jerk or not take care of your kids, just be careful. From where I am sitting (decree should be signed tomorrow), if you give away too much (I didn't) you will regret it later.
Hi Golfgirl1,
I wanted to make sure I didn't just ignore you.
...I would wait a bit to date
...they suggested you wait at least a year. You have to learn to be alone again
... I separated in May of 2009 and divorced in May of 2010.
...my heart is no longer broken.
To respond, I agree that you can't start dating immediately post bomb, and that you need to find yourself first, but... (and I struggled with it myself)...wait a year from what date?
How do you know how long is enough?
At what point does it cease to be productive time spent alone and just become another form of being "in the waiting place" (thx Dr. Seuss).
I got the bomb in November 2008.
I spent a year alternating between finding myself and trying to reconcile.
I gave up on the marriage and asked for a D myself in November 2009.
I wasted months in mediation trying to reach an amicable and equitable agreement.
We formally agreed that we were divorcing in April.
And then I waited another 5 months before going on a first date.
The legal process could potentiallly drag on for another year.
How long do I need to wait?
I've decided that I've waited long enough. I'm obviously not going to run off to get married again any time soon, but I'm more than free enough and whole enough to enjoy pleasant evenings talking to fun, happy and independent women.
Thanks for the feedback.
Wow, your W sounds like my STBXW to a T.
One thing I would suggest. Be reasonable in negotiating your D, but don't offer her more than she's entitled to unless you are getting something in return. This is not the time to turn into the "Nice Guy."
Not suggesting you be a jerk or not take care of your kids, just be careful. From where I am sitting (decree should be signed tomorrow), if you give away too much (I didn't) you will regret it later.
And so far I haven't given an inch.
Think, Do you think you can get some credit for time off in purgatory? I be praying you get a quick and equitable agreement.
Cheers
She has remained emphatic that this pattern can in no way work once we are no longer living in the same house. Her lawyer just filed an official proposal for parenting time that gives me visitation only every other weekend (Fri PM to Sun PM) and on Wednesday evenings. I've maintained that I won't accept anything less than 50/50 shared parenting.
Whatever you do, continue with the 50/50 plan. The longer it goes this way the better chance you have of getting 50/50 in the settlement. You can argue that this is the plan you've adopted and it's working so why change it.
I did not do this. I was the nice guy who let her assume the primary custody and that doomed me.
This is why I am still living here in this house. She has requested repeatedly that I move out - nope, not going to do it.
She also refuses to acknowledge any schedule in writing. I send her one via email, and she responds verbally - of course then I use email to respond to and confirm her verbal response - each time attaching the full updated schedule "for her reference". ;-)
If I were a military man, I'd think: Hmmmm, demands you leave the house; won't look for work; wants effectively 90% custody; has a lawyer; has a lawyer working on the same.....
Rommel, you magnificent bastard! I read your book!
Sounds like the lawyer has it mind to go to court and say, "This Thinker guy works a lot, doesn't have much custody now, so my poor client is a struggling at-home mom. You'd better award us everything we ask for, Your Honor, just to be on the safe side."
It all seems to work well, EXCEPT when any discussion over the future occurs.
She has remained emphatic that this pattern can in no way work once we are no longer living in the same house. Her lawyer just filed an official proposal for parenting time that gives me visitation only every other weekend (Fri PM to Sun PM) and on Wednesday evenings. I've maintained that I won't accept anything less than 50/50 shared parenting.
Any attempt to discuss shared parenting ends up with her going from calm to angry in 0.5 seconds and using any tactic in the emotional abuse book to end the conversation in her favor - yelling, blaming, mimiking (yes, like a 4-year old would do), belittling, name calling (Yes, I'm a %^^%$#@@#%^&*), gas-lighting (yes, I'm the narcissist).
Hey Thinker - I haven't been on ages but when I do i always check in on your thread. If you don't mind, I just had a few comments as your sitch somewhat parallels mine in the fact that you are trying to cope under the same roof.
Regarding the above, don't ever engage in any future talk with her. You both have attorneys, let them handle. It will help keep the peace. By not leaving the house you have made your statement that you want equal time. Enough said. Anything else is her problem, let her stew in it.
Every now and then after a period of cooperation I start to think of her as a rational adult and try to discuss the terms of the divorce with her. (see above). I'm learning not to do that.
Good, don't do it anymore.
In the mean time she doesn't seem to be making any attempt at all to look for work. She's educated and employable and works part time, but does not seem to understand that my salary supports one household, but won't support 2. Legally she is going to have to go back to work, but I know she really doesn't want to. I've offered to increase the amount of child care we have right now so she can get started, but any discussion like this results only in anger and deflection on her part (see above). Oh well. In the long run it's her loss, but it means that she is going to drag the court process on even longer.
I can guarantee you that her lawyer is tutoring her on this. It's to her benefit to show as little income as possible to get more out of you in your final settlement. Fill your lawyer in on her marketability and let your lawyer prove that she can be working and earning an income. This was huge in my case as we were able to prove what my ex-wife was worth. Her lawyer ended up dropping and my ex ended up getting a job for $5k less than we stated just shortly after the divorce. What a surprise.
She is dating, which as far as I am concerned is a good thing. She's going out frequently and I can bemusedly track the progress of a relationship by her moods. When the relationship is going well she wants to sell our house as quickly as possible - and we start making progress. When the relationship ends she drags her feet on the home sale and any discussion about selling the house results in anger and deflection on her part (see above
).
Be careful, there is a hint of not being fully detached in there. You are telling us what she thinks and feels....not your problem anymore, let it go.
I've been dating lightly as well; couple of first dates - all of which were fun and light-hearted and enjoyable. So far no significant relationships, but I'm fine with that. I'm in no hurry and I'm enjoying things as they are. I've made a point of telling each of the women I meet exactly what my situation is (Not yet divorced, still under the same roof) prior to any date so that it doesn't surprise them later.
All good for you. In regards to the discussion about when it is ok to date, I firmly believe that you will know when you are ready. I really think you are in touch with that. It does have to start somewhere. You seem like you are having very casual dates. That's awesome. And even better that you are up front about your situation. I wish you well with all of it.
You will start a new life eventually and I think you already know that you will be fine. And you can do it all knowing that you tried your best to save your marriage and family.
And the court timeline keeps ticking. I've been propounded with massive amounts of requests by her lawyer, so it appears I am going to have to defend my ability as a parent (why should a man have to fight just for equal custody?), defend my income (surely I'm earning more than I am) and defend my assets (those accounts that I had before we were married, never touched during the marriage, and still have - but which would go a ways toward keeping STBX from having to go back to work) all while refuting her claims of unemployability.
It is amazing how men are behind the 8-ball when the process starts. But it is not impossible. As far as your pre-marital assets just provide your lawyer with documentation and that really is a non-issue. But you never know, it may come in handy in negotiating things like parenting time and maintenance, etc.. Give your lawyer the ammunition and then let him./her do the work. At the end of the day it is all a formula and negotiating.
Anyway, just wanted to check in and tell you that i think you are doing great. One day at a time.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
Sounds like the lawyer has it mind to go to court and say, "This Thinker guy works a lot, doesn't have much custody now, so my poor client is a struggling at-home mom. You'd better award us everything we ask for, Your Honor, just to be on the safe side."
Yep, no doubt this is what her L is coaching her own.
In the mean time she doesn't seem to be making any attempt at all to look for work. She's educated and employable and works part time, but does not seem to understand that my salary supports one household, but won't support 2. Legally she is going to have to go back to work, but I know she really doesn't want to. I've offered to increase the amount of child care we have right now so she can get started, but any discussion like this results only in anger and deflection on her part (see above). Oh well. In the long run it's her loss, but it means that she is going to drag the court process on even longer.
I can guarantee you that her lawyer is tutoring her on this. It's to her benefit to show as little income as possible to get more out of you in your final settlement. Fill your lawyer in on her marketability and let your lawyer prove that she can be working and earning an income.
Great advice.
Time, as for dating, I think you should date whenever you're ready. Everyone will have a different time for this. It's good that you're being honest w/ people that you see in letting them know that you are still M'ed and living with STBX. Ideally, it'd be best to date when not living in the home w/ her/still M'ed but being hones tis the key. Do you. Live your life.
It goes without saying, but document document document your time with the kids. Every single moment of it. The court generally favors what was in place during the process.
Hang in there!
SD
We had a court mandated "Parenting Time Mediation" session yesterday. Her L mailed in a formal one-sided (BS) parenting time proposal shortly before the session. On the advice of my L I came with a prepared statement (written by me, in English not legaleze)stating why I believed that shared parenting (50/50) was in the best interest of the kids.
Of course, the mediator did exactly what he could be expected to do. He took the two positions and tried to negotiate us toward the middle.
I refused to play that game. Splitting the difference between shared parenting and 20% visitation is still not shared parenting. In my opinion shared parenting is boolean - either we are doing it, or we are not, and I only support an agreement where we are sharing equally.
And of course STBXW got angry, called me a bunch of names, and stormed out.
Once she left, the mediator gave me his $.50 worth of advice. In his opinion she is in an emotional crisis and is incapable of considering shared custody. Working for the court it's his job to get cases to close via settlement. He then asked me to consider being the one to give in and compromise because she would never be able to.
No way!
I'd ask for your advice here.
She has a lot of arguments she uses for custody, but only one that is real. She argues that she should have custody because I have to work during the day.
Since when does having a job and being able to support my kids make me unqualified to be a custodial parent?
Does the court ever take into account that even if she is not working now, she will have to work to support herself after the D. Therefore the choice is between two parents who have to work full time, not between one who does and one who doesn't?
That's emotional blackmail. My feelings trump your needs. BS.
I've discovered that in her game of crazy (and crazy-making), her feelings create the facts that she believes, not the other way around.
She has a lot of arguments she uses for custody, but only one that is real.
That's not a "real" argument, epistemologically, ontologically, phenomenologically, or juridically.
That's not even an "argument." Let us recall Philosophy 101: An "argument" is composed of two or more propositions, a premise, and a conclusion, logically related to each other such that all of the propositions lead to the conclusion, with the transition between premise, proposition, and conclusion comprising the inferences upon which the sum -- the argument -- rests.
What she's got there is a premise that (as you correctly identify) boils down to "daytime employment does not equal parenting capability," a category of premise which is known in the advanced study of formal logic as a
"bullsh*t" premise, which comes, of course, from the Latin for
"droppings-of-a-bovine-male."More problematic, her premise is also her conclusion, a logical fallacy scholars call
"total bullsh*t," from the Latin for
"droppings-of-a-herd-of-bovine-males."There's no incentive at this point that I can see -- not that I have any particular vision -- to be cooperative, insofar as the mediator and/or her lawyer are concerned.
Just keep documenting your time and expenses vis-à-vis the kids. And you might consider having your lawyer ruffle a few feathers and inform
her lawyer that you are considering filing an Order to Show Cause why she should not be subjected to a vocational aptitude evaluation by a court-appointed vocational counselor -- a common-enough procedural request and one which will put the kybosh on this idea that she's just going to float through without pulling her weight.
LOL
I didn't say it was logical, I just said it was "Real". I do work. She does not. It may not be a good reason for custody, and it hopefully does not predict the future, but it IS a fact.
The rest of her arguments are either fiction, are based purely on her own emotions, or are just attempts to discredit me without any bearing on what's best for the kids.
- "I could NEVER be away from my kids for more than a few days at a time"
- "I'm their mom!"
- "You are just doing this to punish me because I don't want to be married to you"
- "You are just doing this because you want to pay less child support"
- "You are just doing this because you are selfish and can only think about yourself"
etc etc bla bla bla
You are right. I went into mediation without any real hope of anything but a deadlock.
And of course STBXW got angry, called me a bunch of names, and stormed out.
Did the mediator witness this??
Once she left, the mediator gave me his $.50 worth of advice. In his opinion she is in an emotional crisis and is incapable of considering shared custody. Working for the court it's his job to get cases to close via settlement. He then asked me to consider being the one to give in and compromise because she would never be able to.
Thinker, if you guys are at an impasse here with the mediator, you may want to consider going to court over this, especially if someone is witnessing this behavior. Does your STBXW act like this around the children?? If so, you may want to hire a law guardian. The law guardian can help decide what's best for the children. The court usually appoints one, but in my case my lawyer had me hire one. It never came to fruition of him actually working,but it certainly scared my XW, who quite frankly didn't have to accept him as law guardian. But she was in such a fog she didn't know any better.
She has a lot of arguments she uses for custody, but only one that is real. She argues that she should have custody because I have to work during the day.
That's a load of crap. All you have to do is show that you are capable of getting the kids to school, home from school, etc..whether it family help or hiring someone to help. The court wants to see that the kids can be put in a comfortable routine that is conducive to a steady lifestyle.
Does the court ever take into account that even if she is not working now, she will have to work to support herself after the D. Therefore the choice is between two parents who have to work full time, not between one who does and one who doesn't?
Yes, that is why I told you the other day to get working on her marketability and provide your lawyer with that info and then turn the lawyer loose on that.
Strength and Honor.
Mules
LOL
I didn't say it was logical, I just said it was "Real". I do work. She does not. It may not be a good reason for custody, and it hopefully does not predict the future, but it IS a fact.
The rest of her arguments are either fiction, are based purely on her own emotions, or are just attempts to discredit me without any bearing on what's best for the kids.
- "I could NEVER be away from my kids for more than a few days at a time"
- "I'm their mom!"
- "You are just doing this to punish me because I don't want to be married to you"
- "You are just doing this because you want to pay less child support"
- "You are just doing this because you are selfish and can only think about yourself"
etc etc bla bla bla
You are right. I went into mediation without any real hope of anything but a deadlock.
I heard every one of these word for word. Part of the script. Don't even engage. Let your lawyer do the work. You be you. It's unfortunate, but this looks and sounds just like mine. You'll be fine. Don't you dare let the mediator talk you into less than 50/50. The settlement you get is the one you have to live with. Fight for what you want. Forget about her emotions and what she wants. When it comes to the kids, I'm sorry, the gloves have to come off. You can still fight for that with Strength and Honor.
Last week during mediation stbx hurled a threat that I needed to accept her having custody with me getting only visitation rights or she would "move out and take the kids with her 100% of the time."
After the mediation, I notified my L.
My L sent a letter to her L.
stbx's L chewed out stbx.
And stbx spent most of yesterday raging at me and trying to goad me into a fight.
Uncomfortable since, because it was my day with the kids, I couldn't just leave the house. She of course refused to leave.
Every time she'd start up with it again, I'd get up and walk into another room.
She'd follow.
I finally went into my room and shut the door.
She opened it and then refused to leave my room - effectively blocking my exit because I refuse to come anywhere near her. There's no way I'm going to let her set me up for false assault charges.
So I ignored her - straighened up the room while she spewed at me - until finally she stormed off.
Her spew is transparent - almost 100% a projection of her own fears and emotions. It is stressful, however, and I'm concerned that she could to escallate it.
I've notified my L.
Use the video camera on your phone to record bizarre stuff. CYA.
Unfortunately my phone doesn't even have a camera, but my project for this evening is to get my small digital voice recorder working again. I don't think I can legally record her secretly, but next time she wants to fight I'll take it out, turn in on, set it on the table between us and ask her what she would like to discuss.
Have to check with my L first.
Hi Thinker,
Just catching back up after lots of time at 'recess.'
Sounds like you've spent plenty of time in self-reflection, etc. and are ready to get back out there and have fun again. You certainly deserve it and I wish the best for you. Happy dating!
Thanks Golfgirl!
I have a date tonight, and am looking forward to it!
Just got an email from her, via her L and my L, accusing me of escalating and harassing her in order to frighten her out of the home. My supposed actions include to include recording her, hacking her computer, installing key loggers, etc.
None of which I have done (at least in the past 19 months since I used a key logger to bust her A in January 2008
)
But in her mind, I am now doing all of these things in order to harass and punish her (her words, not mine)
She's whacked!
She is reading your posts my friend - you were just discussing recording her, and now she's accusing you of recording her?
No, because I was talking about starting to record her openly if when she rages. She is claiming that I have been secretly recording her for a while now.
Stbx Mrs. T and I have found a C for our kids - someone they can talk to about all of the divorce related stress in their lives. Yesterday we had to meet (the two of us) with the C as an intro.
Holy Distortions Batman!
It's true to her pattern and her character, but she has completely rewritten our past to suit her own view of herself.
- It's all my fault.
- The affairs never happened (those relationships she had and continues to have with other men aren't "Affairs").
- The defining stress in the kids life is the single time I got angry 12 months ago.
- The daily anger she exhibits is all because of me.
- The frequent times she blows up at the kids are all becaue of the stress I put her under.
- The fact that she ignores the boys all day when they are with her (on the phone with her friends and boyfriends) is because she doesn't have enough support.
- The expense that we have from the lawyers, etc, is all my fault because I was the one who filed
- ...
Aaaahhhhrghhh!! Get me out of this fun house!
I keep the time I am around her to an absolute minimum and this helps keep me sane, but occasionally we have to interract for the D or the kids. Whenever we do I feel like I am in a maze of mirrors where the mirrors distorts my own reflection back in all sorts of bizarre and disturbing ways.
I just want out of here.
You know the WASs are famous for rewriting history in order to benefit them. That is just a fact of life, TH. Get all that paperwork she went you to your L so he/she can review it.
How did your date go?
Yea, I'm just venting.
Every time I am forced into a discussion or negotiation with her I come out having to shake my head to clear it of the FOG and remind myself what the facts really are.
---
I have been having fun on the dates, however.
Hi Thinker,
@Thinker>>"It's true to her pattern and her character, but she has completely rewritten our past to suit her own view of herself."
Leaving the mediator's office last week (practicing C for 35 yrs), I commented on all the distortions & rewriting of history in my H's declaration. His response;
"Yeah, we have a saying in this business, "If we believed everything written by both sides, all children would be in foster care."
Apparently they've heard it all & get pretty good at filling in a more accurate picture of events. (We hope so anyway!)
"Aaaahhhhrghhh!! Get me out of this fun house!"
I hear ya though!!
Take Care,
Sunny
So today, without a lot of fanfare, Mrs. T and I put our house on the market.
We've spent the past weeks working to get it ready, and last night we signed the paperwork.
It should be priced right, and houses are selling in this area.
If it sells, then I'm officially separated!
I'm a bit nervous about the transition. When we move out of the house (but are still legally married), I want to maintain the 50/50 custody that we have now. Mrs. T is going to try to use the change to have the kids move in with her and establish custody for herself -- which I would not accept.
I'm a bit nervous about the transition. When we move out of the house (but are still legally married), I want to maintain the 50/50 custody that we have now. Mrs. T is going to try to use the change to have the kids move in with her and establish custody for herself -- which I would not accept.
Why does she think she can do this? Afterall you both are changing where you will be living, not just you. Does she have a valid reason why the 50/50 custody can't continue once you sell the home? If you are moving to a new place that can accomodate your kids as well, then I don't see why the previous arrangement would not stay the same.
BA
So...
The "marital home" is on the market. The first prospective buyers are supposed to come through tomorrow afternoon.
Sell baby, Sell!
I'm sad to see it go - I've put a ton of work and effort into fixing it up and I'm sorry have to let go of it in such a bad market. I had a lot of dreams tied up in this house at one point.
But I've let go - for the most part. It will be difficult to come by in the future and see other people living in what was at one point my dream. But I can deal with that. For now, I just want out.
T,
You will have a new home and new dreams and they will be far bigger and better than you ever imagined!
Did you *plant* the St. Joseph's statue? Google it...you'll see, it works! I got a contract the day after I did it. Best of luck and keep looking forward.
Hi All,
Things are progressing. We got an offer on the house and are now "under contract". We're supposed to close and move out in a month.
Yikes! Time to move on getting a new place. I've been looking at rentals and potential purchases. I've found a home that I want to purchase, but have run into two stumbling blocks, both having to do with the fact that I'm not divorced yet. I was wondering if anyone out there has had to deal with them.
1) How do I conduct the purchase in a way that the new home is not caught up in the divorce. I'm purchasing the house with my half of the funds from the sale of our current house. She's taking her half of the case and can do whatever she wants with it. Is there anything I need to do? Does anyone have experience with quit-claim agreements?
2)In order to qualify for the loan, I have to have a known income. My income is fixed, but the alimony amounts are not yet agreed, so my to-be income is not fixed and is causing issues with my loan applications. Any experience here?
Thanks
Thinker
2)
Thinker, what about the custody situation. Have you seen an attorney on that?
Custody is and continues to be a battle. We're both heavily "lawyered" right now.
Unfortunately what I'm finding is that it seems to be almost impossible for me to get 50% custody in this state. No matter how involved and active you are as a parent, if your spouse is not employed and you are the presumption is that the unemployed spouse is the primary caregiver.
It's getting more and more expensive for me to keep trying, and I'm starting to question whether it's futile.
She's slowly backed off of her extreme position (which was one of trying to cut me out of their day to day lives), but she and her L have refused to go any higher than allowing me 5 nights out of 14.
My next step would be to engage a custody evaluator, pay another 20K in legal fees and keep fighting.
Thinker,
Been sometime since I have written anything. Don't give up on your sons. They need their Dad in their life. I have three boys as well. 13, 10, 8. Coach as much as you can for them in sports. But it is worth the money to fight for even one extra day. Your ex needs to understand, whether you have them 50% of the time or 33% of the time, her monthly stipen won't change. Trust me, your ex will also find out really quickly that we all need a little time on our own. She should be careful what she wish's for. I have my 3 boys three days per week. My ex has them four. Sometimes that is even a little much for her...
My recommendation as well on your tag line...No resentment-she is in pain too. Look, I don't have resentment. I come to find out she really did me a favor by requesting the divorce. I told her that I forgive her as well even though she didn't ask. My ex still wakes up angry every day, why I am not really sure. I told her Hate is an exhausting emotion. You need to get past whatever you still are harboring...
The she's in pain too line--get rid of that one..If my ex is in pain, I don't really care anymore about her feelings.
Your's clearly doesn't care about yours or your boys. She is using your sons as a weapon. That my friend is just cold and mean.
So again, don't give up on your sons. Think of all those special moments you would be missing if you didn't have the extra day. Isn't that worth an extra $5,000 in attorney's fees??
D1adsl5a, the monthly payment is state to state. If I'd gotten 50 percent physical custody in Ill. then I wouldn't owe her child support. So there was no way she was going to agree to that and I screwed up by letting her have more than 50 percent custody when I moved out.
If I could wave a magic wand I'd have said I'm not leaving unless you agree that we are going to do 50/50 custody.
Instead, I went the nice guy route and it's going to cost me for the next 10 years.
In my case my H was the cheater and I still offered him 50/50 custody bc I know that my kids NEED their dad, not just their mom. He declined it bc he travels so much. However, our custody agreement is that one week he has them 5 days, I have two, and the next week I have them six days, he has one. Still that means he has them 6/14 days which is almost 50%. Then when he travels for work I keep them on his days, but when he gets back I often let him have them for an afternoon/evening during my time. I am just flexible that way...
Hi All,
Just an update.
After months of waiting, the "Marital Home" finally went on the market. It went under contract 6 weeks ago, and after a hellish period of inspections and negotiations with the buyers, it closed last week.
I moved out 2 weeks ago and am now happily living in a large apartment in the same town. Mrs. T. moved out a week ago and now lives in the next town over.
We haven't reached final agreement on any of the divorce terms, but things are much more relaxed now that we are each living in our own places.