I have been asked this question by h many times...."are you happier now than you were a year ago?"
part of me says yes...
why wouldn't I be happier..I no longer have to deal with the anxiety over the "what will become of me and my kids" there was never a question of "how will I survive without h" my threads are scattered with statements like "he's not really taking much away from me anyway" or "there really isn't much to miss as he wasn't really "here" anyway"...but yes I am happier in that at least my "family" is whole...I don't have to ponder...gee what if I meet someone...how will that effect the kids..who will "get" the kids for this or that holiday...what about vacations etc.
but am I truly happier than I was before????
I try to answer this question to myself and I'm not sure I can answer it...
if none of this (ow, seperation) had happend..would I be happy with the way things are now?
would I be able to say..."that's just the way m is"
is it this r that makes me dissatisfied or is it this r compounded with the fact that h did lie, did abandon me etc that make me look at the current state of my r through mud colored glasses?
some days I feel good about things..as if "sure I can be happy with this m" and then there are days that I feel like taking him back was a royal mistake.
LL's at a loss....I don't know how I feel about h anymore...don't know if I like him let alone love him...and that scares me..what if I'm just pretending and now know that h is just pretending as well...
just feeling blah about my m latley...as is typical...there is no consitancy with h...all seems to be an attempt to win back my good graces only to then retreat back to his sleep or his watching sports or chatting with buddie. a never ending cycle that is wearing my patience thin.
my old thread was locked out...there are some interesting points made there that I will bring here when I have more time.
LL
LL,
I know that there are some days I feel very much like you. DID I make the right decision with fighting for this m. Why this and why that. Then other days things are great and I feel really happy. I think m is a lot this way it has its ups and downs. Some days I think to myself do I really love my W. Then I remeber that love is a choice and the only way that I can get those feelings back is doing the things that helped create them in the first place. Maybe try doing those things and your feelings will come back and you wont have to question them very often.
Lee
Quote:
Then I remeber that love is a choice and the only way that I can get those feelings back is doing the things that helped create them in the first place. Maybe try doing those things and your feelings will come back and you wont have to question them very often.
but to me the "doing those things that bring about the feelings" part isn't happening...no matter how many times I try to "ask for what I want" no matter how direct or evasive I am about it...it just doesn't seem to happen....
it will be almost a year from the time that h said "I think I'm confused" and then proceeded to start spending time with me working toward comming home...during that time I asked that we do something once a week...or more specifically that he ask me to go out somewhere anywhere...that never happend...so since then I've reduced my request to something like...can we set asside one night a week that is for "us"...we don't have to leave the house..we can just get the kids to bed on time and play cards or darts or rent a movie or something....his response to that request..."I don't want to commit to something like that..because what happens if I can't" in other words..what if he runs late at work or if something comes up...to me that's a sad sad exuse and leaves him doing nothing instead letting weeks go by...me never knowing if tonight he will choose to go watch football or something by himself or if he will grace me with his presence somewhere else in the house.
I'm tired of making suggestions...
I'm tired of making requests...
I'm tired of being told to have patience...and things just never seeming to happen.
I'm tired of feeling like things are not much different than they were...and we know where that lead.
LL
my browser is playing games with me so bringing over the posts from sage, jethro and shiny from the locked thread to here aren't doable right now.
wanted to note today...
today I was just feeling crappy about my sit....
dd handed me the phone at 8am and said "hi daddy" (she's 2) so I dialed the # to let her say "hi daddy", then son (4) spoke to daddy...then of course I said hello to daddy, (I very rarely if at all call him) he had to get back to whatever he was doing and said he'd be in touch...
it was a rainy crappy day and I'll admit I wondered what he was doing. He had an appointment sched for 6pm...
it got to be 4 and I still hadn't heard from him...the kids were restless and I was annoyed so I packed them up and decided to go to the book store and pick up the book for this months book club...then to toysrus for a new booster seat for dd, then thought maybe I'll take the kids out to dinner. My cell phone never rang. It was 6:30 by the time I got home. There were 4 messages from h wondering where we were...(why doesn't he just call my damn cell phone?) though someone did call shortly after six...a private number....no one was there???
h arrived home at about 7:30..dd was already in bed and son soon to go as he has his first official day of pre-school in the am.
h was hungry (ok that's a good sign, can put thoughts that he was going out to dinner with ow out of my mind) so I made him an eggplant parm sub, wich sat on the counter while he looked up either the weather or football stuff. I then took son to shower and off to bed. H came up to read a story but I had already started. H asked me if I wanted to watch football....sorry folks I declined and read my book instead...he'll have to come up with a better crumb than wanna watch some football.
h is now asleep on the couch.
he has fallen asleep on the couch a lot lately....just shades of the past.
things bothering me....
h's waivering...inconsistancy.
h falling asleep on the couch with seeming regularity.
ow is still a customer.
ow's house is no longer on ismh.com and it never showed up as sold nor does it show up any place else. I was left under the impression that she was only going to stay a customer til the house sold...if the house is not selling should she not be dropped...even if it means the two other houses on the street go too?
LL
LL - Just a curiousity question here for my benefit...
Would you say that how your day goes has a direct impact on how you feel about your relationship with your H, or would you say that how you feel about your relationship with your H has an impact on how your day goes?
Maybe neither? Maybe both?
Again, just curious. Just me always wanting to learn more about relationships.
LL, when was the last time you sat your H down and made the request for a night out once a week?
I somehow get the sense that you just might get a different response if you tell him that his "answer" (what is this "can't commit" bullsh!t?) is unacceptable?
It sounds to me like your H "gets his way" a whole lot in terms of how he spends his time. I THINK in part you've put up with this in the past because, perhaps, of the earning inequity in your M. "He" works hard to keep the roof over your head...he gets to call the shots.
I wonder if part of your H's current pattern of approach/withdrawal might be in RESPONSE to how he feels YOU are feeling about the M?
What could you do DIFFERENTLY in bringing up this vital need this time? Perhaps offer flexibility? (Hard with kids, granted)...so that if the "planned night" is bumped for LEGITIMATE reasons (what might those be?...certainly not a "better offer" from buddy or watching sports!)...there can be a fallback plan...a "let's do it tomorrow for sure".
I get the strong sense that you feel he puts a lot of things ahead of your needs. I too would be irrate to say the least if my H couldn't bend his schedule (in the business HE owns!!!) to accommodate watching the kids while I went to school!
There NEEDS to be more equity here. I'm sure he rationalizes it by pointing out that his working hours are what pay for everything....that's a copout. As you said, while you were Separated he MADE time on a regular basis.
But I wonder if NOW he might be more receptive to a slightly different approach?
If he "can't commit" to a night set aside for the two of you (in or out of the house) then how about putting your foot down and saying that then YOU would like an evening every week to do whatever YOU would like!!
Please tell me he's not the type who would consider this having to "babysit" his own kids!
And as for OW...she's a ghost...if her house is going to be sold, how much longer is there yard work to do?
Oh wait, that's right I'M the Canadian with only a couple of months before the snow flies!
Sorry hon!
Shiny
Quoting Jamesjohn:
LL - Just a curiousity question here for my benefit...
Would you say that how your day goes has a direct impact on how you feel about your relationship with your H, or would you say that how you feel about your relationship with your H has an impact on how your day goes?
Maybe neither? Maybe both?
Again, just curious. Just me always wanting to learn more about relationships.
I'd have to say maybe both....
I know that there are some days when things seem a bit brighter as a result of a pleasant evening spent with h the night before...or I'm in a better mood because h has called often during the day or heck just early.
there are some days when I am in a bad mood...the kids are acting up and I start thinking it's all h's fault...if he were doing more for the r and not just for the house I'd be in a better mood and the kids wouldn't act up so much or I'd have more patience.
but then there are also days when it doesn't have to be h...if a friend calls...or comes to visit...or I have plans with friends...or I come here and find a few posts on my thread...
thing is I'm lonely....I'm home all day alone with two kids...don't get many calls and don't call many people cause they're at work...neighbors houses are not within earshot and they tend to stay inside anyway...at night I look forward to h comming home...an adult to spend some time with...some interaction...h sometimes gives it...but sometimes hides in his own world...before all this I would comment...I would seek him out...now I just leave him alone...heck when he falls asleep on the couch now I just leave him there.
LL
Quote:
thing is I'm lonely....I'm home all day alone with two kids...don't get many calls and don't call many people cause they're at work...neighbors houses are not within earshot and they tend to stay inside anyway...at night I look forward to h comming home...an adult to spend some time with...some interaction...h sometimes gives it...but sometimes hides in his own world...before all this I would comment...I would seek him out...now I just leave him alone...heck when he falls asleep on the couch now I just leave him there.
oh gosh, i could have written these words. altho i have three kids (two in school) one is still home and sometimes i have felt so trapped. and couple that with the fact that for almost 11 months we were operating with just one car and i felt like a caged animal.
i have in the last three weeks called some friends and have had lunch with them. lunch, just once a week. 5 dollars at a buffett - these friends don't have children, but they HAD them and know what it's like so they don't mind me bringing my little one along.
ll, i think you really need some adult stimulation besides your husband.
do you know what feels good? being able to talk about something DIFFERENT about my day instead of the same old, well, i did the laundry, i washed the dishes, i made the beds, i mopped the floor. i can now talk about INTERESTING things. HA!!!
is there a chance you can get out more? forgive me if this has been brought up before, i am relatively new, and altho i have read your sitch since i started here, i still don't know your whole story
peace, kitti
omg! cainer horoscope for today.
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What if it all goes horribly wrong? What if your astrologer’s optimism proves misplaced? What if the voice of doom and gloom turns out to be right and real? After all, bad things do happen in this world from time to time, don’t they? Pessimism is a bit like quicksand. You take one step too many in that direction and you end up getting sucked in so fast, you just can’t get out! Negativity is a bit like a single cell amoeba. It hardly needs any help at all to breed like billy-oh. I have already told you that everything is going to be fine. I suggest you believe me.
kewkitti,
as far as getting out??? well I can go out with the kids...there are some moms I know in town that I can meet up with too..but they tend to get busy droping kids off at this class or that class or food shopping or cleaning the floor etc. I did start a book club during the seperation last summer...took a bit of time off from it with my emt class. I may go down (I live about 40 miles north of the area I grew up in) and visit some friends tonight...thing is when I don't also have some interaction with h I start to feel resentful. Sure I can make plans with friends or go scrapbooking or all the other grand things that women do to keep busy, but if that is what my life becomes with h still not making a night for me then what's the point really?
LL
Quote:
but if that is what my life becomes with h still not making a night for me then what's the point really?
i sure do hear you woman!
again, i don't know your sitch well enough so if i am out of line, please tell me.
BUT - if you did manage to start doing things without him on a very regular basis, could he possibly end up resenting it enough to do something about it? i get the feeling that he does things sometimes but not for the duration. this is a hard one
i did read somewhere tho that if he handles your requests ok then keep requesting. i heard it used in the "take out the garbage" routine. we as women HATE it when we have to remind someone to take out the garbage, it should be something that could be remembered. BUT they don't always remember but they also don't mind being made aware of it either. so, keep making them aware even tho WE THINK it shouldn't have to be that way.
ugh, i don't know if i am making myself clear.
all i know is that it is helping MY pma to get out with other ADULTS and i continue to do more of it.
i am even gonna start a spanish class, and leave the kids with HUBBY in the evening. oh boy, i can't wait!
ok, hit me with your best shot...LOL
kitti
Quote:
my browser is playing games with me so bringing over the posts from sage, jethro and shiny from the locked thread to here aren't doable right now.
Coming up! (but didn't see anything from Sage)
I actually wanted to continue this dialog because I felt we had not finished...and I want to "finish," as the examination helps me too...
Quoting Shiny:
think Jethro has something here LL.
First let me say that it would drive me NUTS if my H were undermining my ideas, dismissing my thoughts and feelings in such a manner!!!
That is arrogant, pompous, belittling, and a whole host of other nasty sentiments!!!
However, I think that beneath most arrogance is FEAR. Fear of being wrong, fear of having to reveal oneself, fear of allowing someone else to have a valid point that may conflict with one's own fragile ego.
Yes, LL the most arrogant, narcissistic people are usually hiding insecurities and low self esteem.
When someone is confident in themselves, in their views, they have NO REASON to belittle another person's view in such a manner.
Does HE realize this...I'd bet NOT....it just "works" for him to dismiss your feelings/views in this way. If it's just "junk from other sources" then it's not really valid and he doesn't have to give it due consideration!!!
So what to do about it?
Well I know that CJ has shown me the light a fair bit in pointing out when my comments are dismissive (not in the same manner, but still).
Would that work with your H? Not so sure, as I don't think he has a lot of insight into this.
How about spelling out to him, maybe in a letter? How his dismissals make you feel? I know you've probably already TOLD him this lots of times, but perhaps NOW he might be more willing to hear and validate you?
Reminding him of this tendency of his will open the topic and perhaps allow you to start calling him on it when it happens. He's probably not nearly as aware of this as you are!
---SNIP---
Hi LL, things are slow on the boards and CJ's calzone's are taking longer than anticipated so I checked out "smoochie's" thread.
I just love you girl! Not afraid to ask what many of us think when we read her posts. So....making enemies on the BB, huh?
Seriously though, I have to wonder at her motivation too. I did ask her what kind of warning she gave her H about her unhappiness. Added my own nearly total lack of warning about CJ's unhappiness.
Probably fruitless, but oh well.
Quoting jethro:
Quote:
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what ways might you suggest I help him to realize what he is doing in communicating this way?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestions. How do you coax someone into truly examining themselves and their motivations? It usually takes something rather drastic to "force" this change...kind of like our Ses telling us to take a hike. Thing is, one has to be "open" to hearing this stuff and I don't get the impression your H is in a place to do so.
Has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL? Perhaps if he has, you can draw on this to support your efforts. Thing is, reading a couple of R books should help, but I know what you're going to say about his response to that...
He's stuck in his ego, LL...like many of us tend to do. Fortunately, many of us here on the BB (through Michele's help) see that our ego drives much of our thoughts, so we work through those things to try and make it so they have less impact on "reality." I know, if you asked me three years ago, whether I needed to change, I'd say that perhaps I was over-stressed, but other than that I'm good. My point is, I wasn't even in a place where I could even think that I wasn't "on top" of things.
I imagine your influence is working, LL, but ultimately it has to come from him. This reminds me of something my W shared with me from a seminar she went to last weekend...which I'm going to paraphrase and adjust to this situation. We understand what it takes to make a M work, and in this knowledge, we try to share our insights with our S. Many times our S is unwilling to "accept" what we have to share. Thing is, the influence may still be there. It's like an assembly line for ketsup...the bottle has to be made, the label put on, the ketsup inserted into the bottle, and the seal put on the bottle. You just might be the label in the process of his self-examination. So, who or what will be the bottle? Who knows...
Like SB said, he is being arrogant. IMHO, intelligence doesn't hold a candle to wisdom. I like to think wisdom comes from knowing that you know very little.
Sorry that was so long-winded.
So???
jethro
Quote:
ok, hit me with your best shot...LOL
ha! just waiting for LL's infamouse but are you?
truth be told...I honestly don't know anymore how h would react if I kept myself busy with other things...
I did just finish an emt course that kept me out of the house two nights a week...didn't seem to make a diff to him.
I don't know if he would resent my being busy with other things or if he would find it a relief...then he wouldn't have to feel any pressure to spend time with me.
so last night I bought the new book for book club and started reading...I'll continue to read each night unless asked otherwise (I don't care much for tv that's h's thing) tonight I am going to hang with some girlfriends...and tommorow night believe it or not h and I will be going out to look for a big screen tv for the basement.
oooops...gotta go pick up son from his first day of school!! and yes the seemigly oh so tough LL shed a tear as he walked away holding the teachers hand and turned back smiling to say "bye mama"
LL
truth be told...I honestly don't know anymore how h would react if I kept myself busy with other things...Instead of considering it being "keep myself busy with other things", what if you were to look at it as "filling my life with other things"?
Big difference there.
Many thoughts about this, but will just throw this out for discussion right now.
Quote:
Instead of considering it being "keep myself busy with other things", what if you were to look at it as "filling my life with other things"?
well my oh my, that must be why jj gets paid the big bucks! LOL
thoughtful jj, very thoughtful, that one hit me like a 2x4, what about you ll???
kitti
Quote:
Instead of considering it being "keep myself busy with other things", what if you were to look at it as "filling my life with other things"?
Big difference there.
a rose by any other name is still a rose. call it keeping myself busy..implies I'll still make time for him...call it filling my life with other things and there'll be no stopping me from filling it all up and leaving no space for him.
Many thoughts about this, but will just throw this out for discussion right now let's hear them!
btw...I do so appreciate your stopping by every now and then.
LL
Quoting jethro:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
my browser is playing games with me so bringing over the posts from sage, jethro and shiny from the locked thread to here aren't doable right now.
Coming up! (but didn't see anything from Sage)
I actually wanted to continue this dialog because I felt we had not finished...and I want to "finish," as the examination helps me too...
and that is what we come here for after all isn't it? or are we here to discuss KAW's fancy methods of waking up his w?? 
Quoting Shiny:
think Jethro has something here LL.
First let me say that it would drive me NUTS if my H were undermining my ideas, dismissing my thoughts and feelings in such a manner!!! can you say hair pulling frustration!!
That is arrogant, pompous, belittling, and a whole host of other nasty sentiments!!! a huh!
However, I think that beneath most arrogance is FEAR. Fear of being wrong, fear of having to reveal oneself, fear of allowing someone else to have a valid point that may conflict with one's own fragile ego.
ok so we all have an ego but for pete's sake...let it go already...if I can humble myself why can't he (more often)
Yes, LL the most arrogant, narcissistic people are usually hiding insecurities and low self esteem. often was guilty of that myself...I recognized it...trouble is I recognize it in h but he doesn't always see it in himself
When someone is confident in themselves, in their views, they have NO REASON to belittle another person's view in such a manner.
exactly!
Does HE realize this...I'd bet NOT....it just "works" for him to dismiss your feelings/views in this way. If it's just "junk from other sources" then it's not really valid and he doesn't have to give it due consideration!!!
So what to do about it?
Well I know that CJ has shown me the light a fair bit in pointing out when my comments are dismissive (not in the same manner, but still).
Would that work with your H? Not so sure, as I don't think he has a lot of insight into this.
How about spelling out to him, maybe in a letter? How his dismissals make you feel? I know you've probably already TOLD him this lots of times, but perhaps NOW he might be more willing to hear and validate you?
I never actually can tell if h HEARS me or not, sometimes I get a verbal response to such things and other times he seems to try to apply what I've said....maybe he knows maybe he doesn't, maybe he just feels justified in being a poop the same way I feel justified in asking for what I want. or in other words...most of his arrogant attitude stems from the fact that most of my "complaints" are the same old same old ones..thing is h has never actually "tried" to address them ie. the one night a week thing.
Reminding him of this tendency of his will open the topic and perhaps allow you to start calling him on it when it happens. He's probably not nearly as aware of this as you are!
I hope not cause if he is then he really isn't thick he's just a jerk.
---SNIP---
Hi LL, things are slow on the boards and CJ's calzone's are taking longer than anticipated so I checked out "smoochie's" thread.
I just love you girl! Not afraid to ask what many of us think when we read her posts. So....making enemies on the BB, huh? no, not making enemies just saying it like it is...I don't know her...but I know people like her..we all do..was she my personal whipping boy...certainly not..she obviously knows not the wrath of LL, if I really wanted to be mean and nasty to her she would know it and a whole lot of jaws would drop reading what I'd have to say to her.
Seriously though, I have to wonder at her motivation too. I did ask her what kind of warning she gave her H about her unhappiness. Added my own nearly total lack of warning about CJ's unhappiness.
Probably fruitless, but oh well. with her, yes definately fruitless, she doesn't get it yet and of course will be flocked to by all the flailing lbs's who want her councel and advice.
Quoting jethro:
Quote:
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what ways might you suggest I help him to realize what he is doing in communicating this way?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestions. How do you coax someone into truly examining themselves and their motivations? It usually takes something rather drastic to "force" this change...kind of like our Ses telling us to take a hike. Thing is, one has to be "open" to hearing this stuff and I don't get the impression your H is in a place to do so.
Has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL? Perhaps if he has, you can draw on this to support your efforts. Thing is, reading a couple of R books should help, but I know what you're going to say about his response to that...
He's stuck in his ego, LL...like many of us tend to do. Fortunately, many of us here on the BB (through Michele's help) see that our ego drives much of our thoughts, so we work through those things to try and make it so they have less impact on "reality." I know, if you asked me three years ago, whether I needed to change, I'd say that perhaps I was over-stressed, but other than that I'm good. My point is, I wasn't even in a place where I could even think that I wasn't "on top" of things.
I imagine your influence is working, LL, but ultimately it has to come from him. This reminds me of something my W shared with me from a seminar she went to last weekend...which I'm going to paraphrase and adjust to this situation. We understand what it takes to make a M work, and in this knowledge, we try to share our insights with our S. Many times our S is unwilling to "accept" what we have to share. Thing is, the influence may still be there. It's like an assembly line for ketsup...the bottle has to be made, the label put on, the ketsup inserted into the bottle, and the seal put on the bottle. You just might be the label in the process of his self-examination. So, who or what will be the bottle? Who knows... I've been standing here with the damn bottle buffed shined and labeled waiting for h to poor the ketchup in...little drips is what we've got...someone needs to give that little 57 a whack and get things flowing..I thought that his experience with ow taught him some things..woke him up a bit...but it seems he's slumped a tad again.
Like SB said, he is being arrogant. IMHO, intelligence doesn't hold a candle to wisdom. I like to think wisdom comes from knowing that you know very little.
I totally agree with that sentiment!!
Sorry that was so long-winded.
So???
jethro
of course there's more to say but that's about all I can get in right now!
LL
Hey LL.
Quote:
I've been standing here with the damn bottle buffed shined and labeled waiting for h to poor the ketchup in...little drips is what we've got...someone needs to give that little 57 a whack and get things flowing..I thought that his experience with ow taught him some things..woke him up a bit...but it seems he's slumped a tad again.
I know... Each difficulty in our life provides us the opportunity to change...for the better. It seems your H perhaps at first was on this road, but yet again, got mired in his own muck.
You know, I've been thinking about you and your H a lot the last few days. Let me ask you something... It seems your H is always busy. When he's not busy, he's chilling out (practically sleeping) because he's tired from being busy. I know people who busy themselves into exhaustion. Why? Because they are trying to distract themselves from something hidden underneath that they don't want to face. My MIL is very much this way. I think your H is hiding in all the work he does. He's not hiding from you, but from himself.
People distract themselves in different ways, of course. Here, our Ses are distracting themselves with OP. My W certainly did because she was fearful of dealing with those raging feelings that were all clogged up inside of her. Her interpretation of the junk inside of her was that she wasn't happy because of our M, not herself. Naturally, it took time for her to realize this...and to realize that all her pervassive sweating, anxiety attacks, nervous energy, etc., all resided inside of herself...which was contrary to her outward appearance of strength and control.
So, it seems to me your H is afraid to "be," just wind down, chill out, and take some time to think. Again, I ask you, has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL?
It saddens me that people can go through their entire lives without realizing this dynamic in themselves. I pray that your H comes out of his "protective" shell. I pray for him to have peace.
jethro
Quote:
I know... Each difficulty in our life provides us the opportunity to change...for the better. It seems your H perhaps at first was on this road, but yet again, got mired in his own muck.
perhaps he might think it's me who's mired in muck and he is just peachy.
Quote:
You know, I've been thinking about you and your H a lot the last few days. Let me ask you something... It seems your H is always busy. When he's not busy, he's chilling out (practically sleeping) because he's tired from being busy. I know people who busy themselves into exhaustion. Why? Because they are trying to distract themselves from something hidden underneath that they don't want to face. My MIL is very much this way. I think your H is hiding in all the work he does. He's not hiding from you, but from himself.
I think he'd disagree, I don't think I do though.
Quote:
So, it seems to me your H is afraid to "be," just wind down, chill out, and take some time to think. Again, I ask you, has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL?
I don't think so...I know that during our seperation he did go to a c...how often I don't know..but I do know that his last visit with her was when he started to consider comming back home.
he did spend alot of time before seperation (or heck maybe before I discovered ow) playing horseshoes in our backyard...sometimes he'd even be out there at night just throwing shoes by himself...or sitting in his truck listening to a ball game on the radio...I know that during seperation he spent some time playing pick-up basketball at a park somewhere...
at times he makes statments that lead me to think that he does reflect...ie. when he noted that as a result of starting his company at a young age he took on an arrogant persona that bled into the rest of his life and that he see's it's not productive and not the only way to display confidence or get things done...but I at times still see that persona.
Quote:
It saddens me that people can go through their entire lives without realizing this dynamic in themselves. I pray that your H comes out of his "protective" shell. I pray for him to have peace.
I prayed the same for him many many times...even before ow...before seperation...heck any time I passed a wishing well or saw a star...I wished for a happy healthy family nothing more.
someone played a trick on me and made a muck of things perhaps in hope that they would get better but I'm not convinced it worked yet...the tools and ability are all there...they've made themselves seen time and again...but I would like for them to remain a tad more constant. not at all saying I'm looking for or expecting some fairy tale life but....well...by now you all know what I'm about.
the real kicker for me is that I accept my shortcommings...have since an early age...is part of why the majority of my electives in school were the pshychology courses that others dreaded (family diversity and dynamics, abnormal phych, family and childhood in contemporary cultures just to name a few ok so I did wimp out and opted for one true elective and took piano) I know the effects my life have had on me...I know how I have been shaped..maybe it's easier for me to see these things in myself because there source is so easily read...parent stress, abandonment, alchoholism, abuse, sexual abuse etc....while h had the quant little suburban life.
if you asked h...he'd see it as he's "normal" fine and balanced and I am a total basket case who needs help.
LL
My general thoughts......
One of the biggest areas where I see people getting stuck here at the piecing stage is by working too hard to try to make their relationship better, and not leaving any room for their partner to pick up any of the slack. If you don't "enable" your partner to take some ownership in moving your relationship forward, they usually won't. Why should they? After all, you're doing all the work for them!!
A lot of times, once we begin to drop the rope a bit, they WILL pick up some of the slack.
Usually, by the time we're posting on this forum, we've got a lot of momentum built up, and have been working very hard to get to this place. It's hard to slow that pace down. Often times, once we do, it's easy to forget that some of the things that helped us get here, and we fall back into old patterns.
LL, in looking back at your threads from a year ago, it kinda looked to me like the more things that you did to be independent from your H, the closer he got to you. I think I'm seeing some of this now, too, when the less that you want from him, the more he'll give you? And the better you feel about things?
Gotta run now, more later!
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LL, in looking back at your threads from a year ago, it kinda looked to me like the more things that you did to be independent from your H, the closer he got to you. I think I'm seeing some of this now, too, when the less that you want from him, the more he'll give you? And the better you feel about things?
it is a terrible cycle that just seem to have no end...I try and try to get h to "be present with me" and when I finally "give up" and start to take steps toward making my life "full" regardless of what he is or isn't doing for the r...that is when he starts with phone calls and a bit of attention...would it be possible to have some stability and not have this constant cat and mouse bit going on??? should it be possible?
LL
Quoting lostlove:
it is a terrible cycle that just seem to have no end...I try and try to get h to "be present with me" and when I finally "give up" and start to take steps toward making my life "full" regardless of what he is or isn't doing for the r...that is when he starts with phone calls and a bit of attention...would it be possible to have some stability and not have this constant cat and mouse bit going on??? should it be possible?
LL
Is it possible that you revert back to old patterns once h starts being responsive to you?
I'm paraphrasing here but something you said h said on an earlier post caught my eye...when you asked him to commit to a date a week he responded with something like...I can't do that ... something will happen and we'll miss a week and ....sounded like his issue was less about doing something with you and more about being held accountable for a standard/schedule that he wasn't sure he can maintain.
What if you took it a week at a time? or, as someone else suggested...plan a night out a week...if he can come, great, if not, you go do something. Not entirely what you were hoping for but maybe a step in the right direction?
Sage
Yes, it SHOULD be possible, LL!
And hon, I'm only empathizing with the crappy stuff your H does. I don't hate him or not like him....I don't even know HIM...I only know how his behaviours or lack thereof affect someone dear to me...YOU!
Shiny
Hey LL.
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the tools and ability are all there...they've made themselves seen time and again...but I would like for them to remain a tad more constant. not at all saying I'm looking for or expecting some fairy tale life but....well...by now you all know what I'm about.
Well...then...there's hope.
Something just needs to "move" him...
You know, I'd like to expand upon JJ's comments. I know for myself, I DB'd hard...gained an almost militant-like intensity that I took with me into Piecing. I also began to create a grandiose vision of what I expect my M to be like in order for me to be satisfied with our "new R." Well, many months later, after finally chilling out, I realized that my utopian vision will never be realized and that where I have backed off in my intensity, my W has picked up the slack.
I guess, LL, I know it's frustrating because you've done many different things to engage your H. Perhaps you are trying too hard as well. Let your H make his own eggplant sandwich once in a while. He learn to appreciate those things a bit more.
Take care...
(((LL)))
jethro
Ditto on all of sage's thoughts!
The "one week at a time" concept might be something worth experimenting with.
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The "one week at a time" concept might be something worth experimenting with.
and of course I will come up with why that too doesn't work...and to be honest I would be ok with it that way.
a while back...probably last month...emt class was every tues and thurs night...one of my gf's asked to do something with me over the weekend...I figured fri would be better as h does work a full day...so thought sure I'll do something on fri with gf and then sat h and I can do something...on wed I said to h...gf called and wanted to get together this weekend...I thought fri would be best as you work and may just want to relax then we can do something together on sat night...h's response..."why don't we just take sat as it comes" and if I recall sat came and went probably with him sleeping on the couch...the other couch!
so you see I can't even make plans one week at a time and that is why I would like to schedule a specific night for the week...and sure I'm ok if say wed night is card night but wed night this week he has an appoinment or a bad day and isn't up for it..heck there's always thurs.
LL
Quoting lostlove:
so you see I can't even make plans one week at a time and that is why I would like to schedule a specific night for the week...and sure I'm ok if say wed night is card night but wed night this week he has an appoinment or a bad day and isn't up for it..heck there's always thurs.
LL
I wasn't so much suggesting that you don't plan a specific night...as much as I was suggesting that something about your wording to h "a date a week" seemed to freak him out a bit.
In other words...yah, definitely say "sat. is the night of doing something" and then decide on a weekly basis whether he's going to be able to do something with you or not. If it's NOT, then you go out on your own.
I realize this is asking you to be super flexible and super understanding of his "commitments". I just think that if h doesn't feel hemmed in to something he's not sure he can commit to...he'll be a lot more willing to make plans. Especially if he sees you going off to a movie or dinner either on your own or with friends..
Sage
Hi LL,
I feel I have a lot in common with your sitch. My kids are same age s(4) and d(2). And I have a workaholic husband who spends a lot of time either sleeping or fiddling with the computer. I too am feeling like DBing wasn't really worth it and not sure whether I actually like H much. We had a great 6 weeks together following his return home in June but this past month has been really crappy and I feel like we are back in old R.
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Usually, by the time we're posting on this forum, we've got a lot of momentum built up, and have been working very hard to get to this place. It's hard to slow that pace down. Often times, once we do, it's easy to forget that some of the things that helped us get here, and we fall back into old patterns
These seem like wise words from JamesJohn kind of hit me like a 2X4.
I agree with Sage and others who have posted to say you should schedule a night out a week and just do it whether he comes or not.
After H read 5LL he finally clicked that my LL is quality time so now we go out one night a week to a salsa class. I swear it is the only thing keeping our marriage together. If it weren't for that one night out together I think I would be throwing in the towel by now. Maybe it would be a good thing to schedule something where you don't have to talk face to face, like dancing or bowling or something. Maybe your H is fighting shy because he thinks it will end up being R talks all the time?
The time you mentioned when he asked you to watch football on TV with him and you turned him down. Maybe that was a babystep? Not ideally what you would like - a crumb as you put it - but maybe you have to build the cake one crumb at a time?
BTW on the question of loneliness and being stuck with the kids - I hear you, although I do have a couple of girlfriends in same sitch and we get together. You mention you're gf's are busy with chores etc. Can this work: I alternate one morning a week minding my friend's kids for her and vice versa then we have lunch together. I also alternate dropping off and picking up S to pre-school with another friend and then we usually at least have a cup of tea or something when we drop the other child back. It works because we are helping each other out as well as just getting together to chat.
take care
Fran
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Quoting lostlove:
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it is a terrible cycle that just seem to have no end...I try and try to get h to "be present with me" and when I finally "give up" and start to take steps toward making my life "full" regardless of what he is or isn't doing for the r...that is when he starts with phone calls and a bit of attention...would it be possible to have some stability and not have this constant cat and mouse bit going on??? should it be possible?
LL
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Is it possible that you revert back to old patterns once h starts being responsive to you?
hmmmm, what am I doing when h starts with phone calls and attempts at getting closer to me???? being distant, not talking much, not initiating any conversations, not initiating any physical contact, basically just going about my business and trying as hard as possible to just treat him as if he's a roomate.
what "patterns" do I fall into when he's been "trying" to draw me back?? talk a bit more, lose a bit of the edge that keeps me silent, become not as afraid to sit down on the couch next to him without an invitation.
so basically the only way to keep h consistantly engaged in the r is for me to just back off, stay queit and just not care go about my business and "fill" my life with other stuff...hope that at somepoint he may "get it" and if he doesn't well then either accept that half life or leave?
LL
here's the kicker,
I am begining to thing that h and I just have different ideas about what m should be.
m for me...sure there's the house and kids and bills and all that stuff. but m more importantly is sharing life with another, being friends, being lovers, being a part of eachothers lives.
it seems to me that h's idea of m is..
man goes to work, pays bills, takes care of the yard, occassionally listens to w talk about life stuff, goes to football games, watches sports, occassionally to keep w happy spends time with her.
thing that throws this theory out the window is h's r with ow?
if h is a loner, content to work, eat, sleep and watch sports and only on occassion have an intimate r with a woman...then why was he spending so much time with ow? what were they talking about, what was their r that he would go to her house 3x a week? 3x a week even if only for 45 min or so is far more than I get here...unless of course I am to count the time that h simply spends in the house doing his own thing? I doubt very much that h was simply doing his own thing when he'd visit ow.
it appears that ow's house is no longer for sale...the fact that her house was to sell was the supposed only reason she was still a customer..I've finally questioned h about this and he still has no answer about removing her from his customer list...did state that when he does have to go to her house to service it he calls ahead to let her know when he will be there and she is not there when he goes and he is not alone going there anyway. claims that he'd be more likely to bump into her driving around that town than he would servicing her house so what's the difference...big diff to me!
the longer ow is a cust...the longer part of me stays away from h.
h has really screwed thing up...he was not ready to come home when he did...the appologies I got in the begining mean little to me because he still talked to her afterward...she is still a customer. Is it all about ow...no...it is about the fact that h either just doesn't want a r or he doesn't want one with me.
LL
is it safe to assume that when most of you got married...things were good? you were "in love" with eachother, you we're friends etc?
these are not the words of a waw....listen....I was not "in love" when I got married, my h and I were not friends, life was not fun, h had his secret life and I had mine...I developed my own to counter his...I didn't intend to keep it that way but I suppose I should have known he wouldn't change with m.
h is never going to be a person who wants to do anything other than sit and watch sports. h is not going to be a person who enjoys talking...why he did those things with ow is beyond me.
we probably never should have gotten back together after our first break up.
we were kids when we met and it all fell apart long before we got married...long before we had kids...I kept trying to make things better but it just didn't seem to work...aparently it only made things worse...h's choice of action has changed my perception of him...before I could accept his shortcommings because I could at least say to myself...he's honest, he dedicated, he's compationate, he's loyal, he's ambitious, and he's a hard worker.
I've discovered...
he's not honest
he's dedicated to himself.
he's not loyal
he has compation but he chooses who to have it for.
I don't see him as ambitious anymore
a hard worker....maybe...I don't know what he does all day.
LL
Quoting jethro:
Hey LL.
So, it seems to me your H is afraid to "be," just wind down, chill out, and take some time to think. Again, I ask you, has he ever done any kind of serious self-examination, LL?
It saddens me that people can go through their entire lives without realizing this dynamic in themselves. I pray that your H comes out of his "protective" shell. I pray for him to have peace.
jethro
at the very begining of our seperation...we did go to a c together...not because h wanted to but because I went on my own and the c wanted to talk to him to get a sense of things...the c then suggested we go together for a bit and h agreed..that lasted two sessions.
the c tried to address with h the fact that his life seemed to revolve around the business or work aspect h fully admitted to living his life wrapped up in getting the business set.
so the c pointed out...well now you've got the business all set so when are you going to get to the other parts of living life?
h's response..."I've been waiting to be pulled out"
heck I've been trying for years to get him to live a little.
who pulled him out?
ow!
h started listening to music more (before that it was all talk radio, sports, weather etc)
before I had asked h once if he'd ever be interested in getting one of those of road vehicles or snowmobiles (we do have trails right off our yard) h said no...during our sep when one drove by one day he said..maybe I'll get one of those someday.
during our sep..he seemed a bit more alive...
dressed a little neater (well ok he wouldn't just come here in work clothes...he'd shower and put on a different tshirt...even bought himself sneakers a man who wears work boots everywhere) wore cologne.
heck I even found a deck of cards in his travel bag.
h is not alive when he's with me.
h should leave me again...I'm starting to think we'd both be better off that way...and if we are happier and better off without eachother than the kids will be better off too.
all the little things that h does that are supposed to show me that he loves me....hmmm let's see...
when h first moved out after telling me he didn't want to be my h anymore...
he called every morning to say hello and see how we all were.(only stopped because I asked him not to call me)
when he was here he did the dishes and played with the kids while I went out.
he bought me flower seeds for my wild flower area.
he bought me morning glory flower seeds, a flower I had talked about wanting to put in since we started building the house.
he put the airconditioner in MY bedroom (not the kids) and for some reason didn't bother to this summer.
if I did happen to be here while he was here he would offer me a soda or some of his drink.
if I mentioned wanting to take a tree down he immediately went out and pushed it over.
he took care of the yard.
he took my car and had it cleaned.
he payed for me and sil to get a massage.
he planted my flowers for me on mothers day and gave me cards from the kids.
and those are things he was doing while he was adamant about not loving me...being in love with ow...and clear that he was never comming home.
so how can I now look at the same things comming from him and accept that they mean he does infact love me and does infact want to be with me??????????????????
truth is I can't...all those things show me is that he does care...that I never doubted.
what I want is what he gave to ow...friendship.
h has never (and yes I know that's a strong word) truly let me be his friend. it's all I've ever asked for...I began to accept that perhaps h was just incapable of friendship but now I know that he is capable....he just doesn't want me to be his friend.
LL
Quote:
After H read 5LL he finally clicked that my LL is quality time so now we go out one night a week to a salsa class. I swear it is the only thing keeping our marriage together. If it weren't for that one night out together I think I would be throwing in the towel by now. Maybe it would be a good thing to schedule something where you don't have to talk face to face, like dancing or bowling or something. Maybe your H is fighting shy because he thinks it will end up being R talks all the time?
hey haphazard,
I think I'd be happy if h just read or pretended to read the 5ll's or any of the other many books I've got lying around the house that I've mentioned to him.
I think I'd drop dead of shock if h agreed to take a dance class or anything like that with me.
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The time you mentioned when he asked you to watch football on TV with him and you turned him down. Maybe that was a babystep? Not ideally what you would like - a crumb as you put it - but maybe you have to build the cake one crumb at a time?
tired of taking crumbs hoping they'll lead somewhere only to realize that crumbs is all I'll get. plus truth be told..though there was a time when I would watch football with him, after c's suggesting perhaps since football is one of his main interests he could share that with me and take me to some games h's response was "that's just the guys" so F him when it comes to football..perhaps if he said...wanna play a game of cards and watch the game (most people can multi task can't they...I mean after all he can sit and talk on the phone with buddie while watching the game) but anyway.
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BTW on the question of loneliness and being stuck with the kids - I hear you, although I do have a couple of girlfriends in same sitch and we get together. You mention you're gf's are busy with chores etc. Can this work: I alternate one morning a week minding my friend's kids for her and vice versa then we have lunch together. I also alternate dropping off and picking up S to pre-school with another friend and then we usually at least have a cup of tea or something when we drop the other child back. It works because we are helping each other out as well as just getting together to chat.
that sounds nice...and in theory I do have a friend in town to do that with and we've talked about it..despite the fact that our sons go to different pre schools we still could get together with the littler ones while they are at school but it never seems to pan out...even when we try to make the plans to do so...one of her kids always seems to get sick or her h needs something.
maybe things will be better for me when both of my kids are in school all day.
LL
my h is nuts!
after not speaking to him for two days other than social niceties, my taking off and going to the movies (and obviously distanced from him) alone last night....
h just asked me if I want to go to the drive-in theater on fri night....
why the hell couldn't he have taken action when I simply asked nicely???
wtf is this?
I'm going to lose my mind!
LL
LL,
Are you going to go and have a good time? Or are you going to go and resent it because it wasn't on YOUR timeframe, or H is just asking after you hounded him into it?
I sense a lot of pressure and unhappiness from you on many different fronts. I'm sure that H does too.
A man (or any person) can only take so many times of hearing "you should do this", "you need to...", or "that's nice, but if you only did it this way..." to have their self esteem punctured. This kind of "helpfully suggesting" comes across as a criticism. It damages the ability to have any confidence that anything that is done will meet your expectations. This is strictly about the R skills - I know from your description that H can do many things, and do them well. But when it comes to R skills your H probably feels that he can do nothing right in your eyes. He can't reach the bar that you have set for him, it's too high - and there is nothing in between. So (speaking from personal experience here) H's alternative is simply to do NOTHING. He can't jump over the building in a single bound, so he's not going to try.
Have you noticed that when you back off -
Quote:
after not speaking to him for two days other than social niceties, my taking off and going to the movies (and obviously distanced from him) alone last night....
that H felt it was OK to try something?
Try enjoying the fact that H had the courage to ask - he's putting himself on the line there for you to choose. "Reject me or accept me." That is a very vulnerable place for a man. After being met with backhanded compliments and criticism for so long, I just shut down on my STBX. There was no way I was going to risk the rejection again. It also meant I shut down her "suggestions" too. Not the best move on my part, but it gave me some room to breathe. I would not choose that path again, because now I have learned alot more about myself and how the communications and mechanics of an R work.
You can lead a horse to water...
Relax, enjoy the evening. Let H know that you appreciate his efforts, positive strokes, not sideways ones. No - "Well this is what I was talking about before" - that takes away ANY initiative H may have had to do it again. Let H know you are having fun - and have fun!!
Less overanalyzing and more realizing!
Greg - Patient, vigilant, hopeful
I don't reject h....he rejects me. it is not until I all but give up and pull away from him that he makes attempts...as soon as I relax and am comfortable being near him he pulls away again.
him asking me to go to the drive in is huge...I'll admit that...but it's certainly not comming simply from me backing off...I backed off this time as a result of arguments about ow still being a customer and his indecisivness about what to do about that with blatant disregard for how it effects me and thus our m, a confrontation about son picking up h's bad habits (convo brought about by mil), h's falling asleep every night on the couch, h's distance becomming annoying to me etc.
so though it was nice and thoughtfull of him to recall that after I took cousin and son to drive-in my saying...we should go some time it's really neat, almost two months ago.
h is not the one who should fear any rejection...I am the one being rejected.
if he would attempt to take steps up and not continuously just get comfortable on one step only to then go back down....I don't understand how he thinks he'll ever reach that very low bar without trying?
LL
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h is not the one who should fear any rejection...I am the one being rejected.
I wonder how he would respond to this?
I only ask because it has become blatantly clear to me that CJ perceived all manner of rejection from me, when I couldn't see it at ALL.
Couldn't your "pulling back" and distancing be felt by him as a rejection? I KNOW it's in response to his behaviours, but does he know that??
And as was said, your unhappiness is pretty apparent, if I were your spouse I'd be on pins and needles.
Shiny
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And as was said, your unhappiness is pretty apparent, if I were your spouse I'd be on pins and needles.
perhaps then I should not have a spouse...then there would be no one rejecting me and taking me for grantide leaving me to feel unloved and boring so they could then blame me for the tension in the r.
a viscuous circle...I'm better when I don't care what he's doing..trouble is when I don't care what he's doing that is when he suddenly cares what I'm doing.
LL
Quoting lostlove:
h just asked me if I want to go to the drive-in theater on fri night....
why the hell couldn't he have taken action when I simply asked nicely???
Because he wants it to be HIS idea? Not in a bad way...(like I don't want to give her the satisfaction...) but because don't you think it feels MUCH better to him to have come up with the idea and executed it on his own.
Sage
LL,
Come on girl, not gonna give up on you. I'm really pulling for you to make it here. Is your glass half full or half empty?
All I'm saying is that looking at this from your H's viewpoint is that you are on him about something all the time. Especially this R stuff that H may not have the skills to cope with. He obviously didn't learn them while he was away, and he may never. You have to decide for you if that is acceptable or not.
Obviously from your view the OW has to go as a customer. I would support this too, but look at this from his view for just a sec - "I'm not gonna let LL tell me who I can and can't have as a customer!" He can't see the personal side versus his business side. I really don't think it's about the OW. It's about you telling him who HIS customers for HIS business can and can't be - your comments are like crabgrass in the middle of his lawn. It doesn't matter to him that you are right from a personal standpoint - H sees it as an invasion of HIS business. People have the ability to compartmentalize these kinds of things, that doesn't make them right - they just are.
I know in my own sitch that STBX was not sending anything but putdowns and rejecting me. And anytime I did get something right, it was either ignored or complimented in a lefthanded fashion. I never felt that STBX was proud of me or my accomplishments - professional or otherwise. After awhile that can drain you dry - both of you.
It would seem that there is alot of mindreading going on here too - both of you. You say that you ARE telling H what he needs to do - think that goes over too well? - can you say cheeseless tunnel?
Ultimately LL you have to decide for YOU. There seems to be an elusive spark there somewhere deep inside of H that draws you to him. Do you see this as potential - if H would just change this or do that I could be happy kind of thing? Men - in general - do not like to have the love of their life try to change them. And some men are so thick they think nothing needs to change - and if it is forced upon them they simply shut up and dig in their heels and do everything to stay the way they are - even if it hurts them and those they love.
Your H simply needs to figure it out - himself, in his own way, in his own time. Only you can decide if the time has run out. And LL, you've been here long enough to know that alot of us men will do nothing until the time has run out. Myself included.
Greg - Patient, vigilant, hopeful
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it seems to me that h's idea of m is..
man goes to work, pays bills, takes care of the yard, occassionally listens to w talk about life stuff, goes to football games, watches sports, occassionally to keep w happy spends time with her.
You forgot scratching.
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I think I'd be happy if h just read or pretended to read the 5ll's or any of the other many books I've got lying around the house that I've mentioned to him.
How many times do I need to tell you he will not read, you promised me you would get the audio, I don't think you are serious, cause you ain't trying everything.
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Are you going to go and have a good time? Or are you going to go and resent it because it wasn't on YOUR timeframe, or H is just asking after you hounded him into it?
I have to respond to this one!
of course I wont go and resent his waiting so long to ask.
I wont take a stance of see I told you so after we enjoy ourselves and feel closer. I will simply say thank you and let the evening show itself for what it is...let him enjoy and see the benifit of making time to spend together.
I will do my best to get a babysitter incase he cannot.
I will go food shopping and make snacks to bring with us.
and if for some reason we cannot get a sitter I will go rent some movies and set up the snacks in the family room after the kids go to bed and treat the evening with the same significance as if we did get out. (and hope that the kids stay in bed)
I don't take an I told you so tone with h when he does act...I do my best not to show any such tone. In fact h's asking me to go to the drive-in stemmed from him asking me where I had gone to the movies sun night and what I saw...I didn't respond with an attitude...I went on line to the drive-in site to see what was playing this weekend with excitement despite the fact that though I have wanted a "date" with h for a long time what I really want to hear from him is ily and I'm sorry for causing all this grief and I'm actively trying to find a productive solution to the customer issue.
I am not "telling" h who he can and can't have as customers...I'm simply letting him know how I feel about her still being a customer.
LL
Quoting poepad:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think I'd be happy if h just read or pretended to read the 5ll's or any of the other many books I've got lying around the house that I've mentioned to him.
How many times do I need to tell you he will not read, you promised me you would get the audio, I don't think you are serious, cause you ain't trying everything.
it is not likely that h would listen to a tape either...but if it will make you happy I'll go buy the damn things and give them to him...but alas isn't that again saying to him...look you're not doing a good enough job so here listen to these tapes so you can have someone tell you what you should be doing?????????????????
LL
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t is not likely that h would listen to a tape either...but if it will make you happy I'll go buy the damn things and give them to him...but alas isn't that again saying to him...look you're not doing a good enough job so here listen to these tapes so you can have someone tell you what you should be doing?????????????????
NOW, I can see what you H is dealing with.
Simply ask him to listen to
"MEN ARE FORM MARS AND WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS".
in his truck while he is running around. Ideally you listen together. Not the whole tape just small chunks at a time.
Present it as these tapes tell the difference between male and female, and it will make it easier to understand me. And you heard from others it is like a like bulb going off. A lot of things get explained. And his life would become easier.
In my case I finally understood why she was saying you are not listening to me. I was not listening I was in my fixer mode. I did not understand all I had to do was listen.
I did not have to fix anything.
I have 2 copies of M/V and I would be glad to send you one at no expense to you. And I would be glad to talk to your H and tell him how simple it is to keep LL happy.
Quote:
And I would be glad to talk to your H and tell him how simple it is to keep LL happy.
Quote:
NOW, I can see what you H is dealing with.
well wich is it poe,
am I unreasonable or am I simply a woman and h is simply a man????
LL
Quote:
am I unreasonable or am I simply a woman and h is simply a man???? Lucy, you are the only one with the knowledge to fix this, so give you "50's" thinking H the tools to fix this.
OW-Have you ask H to get rid of OW, and what reason does he give for keeping her.
Quote:
OW-Have you ask H to get rid of OW, and what reason does he give for keeping her.
upon first discovery of their "friendship" I asked that she no longer be a customer...that didn't fly.
after seperation when h came home I asked that ow no longer be a customer...that didn't fly...or rather h was considering how to do it...sent out season proposals and one for her house...I questioned...his reasoning...there are three other houses that he works for on the street...if she was planning to sell the house then it would be foolish to drop all of them and then have her not even living there.
well it appears to me that ow's house is no longer for sale...I ask h and his response to getting rid of her is still...not sure (but sways more toward keeping her and the others on the street some justification that it's $ gee h not as much $ as it will cost if this m fails) and gives some other exuse that he calls before he has to go there and she leaves and he is not alone when he goes, oh and as if this is supposed to offer comfort..."there's more of a chance for me to bump into her on (main road) then there is for me to see her at her house" that's comforting isn't it???
ow needs to go. it's humiliating to me and it should be humiliating to h to still work for her.
LL
Quote:
ow needs to go. it's humiliating to me and it should be humiliating to h to still work for her.
I agree, this should be a non-negoiatable item, tell him in a quiet time and quiet voice how you feel and that OW has to go off his jobs list. And agree on a time limit.
William Harley talks about joint ageement , here is a good chance to use it.
Quoting poepad:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
ow needs to go. it's humiliating to me and it should be humiliating to h to still work for her.
I agree, this should be a non-negoiatable item, tell him in a quiet time and quiet voice how you feel and that OW has to go off his jobs list. And agree on a time limit.
William Harley talks about joint ageement , here is a good chance to use it.
the time limit has come to an end.
ow's house WAS up for sale..was listed with ismh.com, did have open houses...did have the house as available as of june 30th (how kind I assume to let her kids finish the school year) it has not appeared as sold it has been dropped from ismh.com and does not appear with any other realtors, there is no sign infront of her house...I am assuming it's no longer for sale and heck even if it IS why should h keep her on for another year? in accepting that she stay on this year I was under the impression that the house would sell and she would move away...didn't happen..school has started and that would probably mean she'll be there till at least next summer...the school year not ending til june with the season starting in may? I can't go through another year of waiting for her to move...the only other option is for h to stop waiting for her to go away and to simply make her go away..there is no valid reason to keep the street....he has plenty of business and will not loose any as a result of it...if he wanted to be kind he could set them up with a company that he contracts some of his lawns out to.
he is aware of the fact that he created this problem (bet now he wishes his a was with a floozy in a bar instead of a floozy in his customer base) and now it would seem he just doesn't know what to do about it.
btw it should make you happy to know that I've looked up the audio for mars and venus...attempted to order two copies (they are only 10 a piece on the gray site) but my puter is acting up so I'll have to try again later.
if I do get them (one for me and one for h) how might I present them in a way that will not seem pressureing or demanding????
LL
Quoting lostlove:
if I do get them (one for me and one for h) how might I present them in a way that will not seem pressureing or demanding????
LL
Why not start listening to them yourself first...then when you get into them say to h "I've been listening to these tapes to see if I could understand how we could meet each others needs better. Would you mind listening to them as well and letting me know if you think the author is on the right track in terms of describing men?"
PS I know you were asking poe but thought I'd throw my 2 cents in...it wouldn't work on my h, though..I'd have to glue the walkman to his head!
Sage
Hi..LL..I have been lurking..I hear your frustration and I don't know what to say.. I do know that I am not sure that h and I have ever bben "friends"..he has always provided..great father..lover..but as far as friend..no..to just sit and talk as friends do..no..he is kinda like your h(hmmm..all men!!??))pay the bills..then sit and watch tv..I have always asked him to do things..and he usually did..I guess you have to really dig and find out what you really want from a h..your h..the way he is. You know you can't change them and thinking so is only setting yourself and the m up for problems. When I now look at h or think of little things he did do, I discover that I have not taken the time or PATIENCE all these years to see all the good that he has in him...I am hoping that it is not too late...stop and look at your h..reflect back to all the good years that you have had...we might just be expecting too much now that the boats have been rocked.
I know you will do what you need to do for you..and that is the ultimate goal..to make you happy with your life.
Sue
LL,
Forgive me if you've answered the question I'm about to ask on one of your other posts but, would it be possible to type up an end of contract letter for your H to present/MAIL to this OW/client. Offer one final month of free service and dissolve the contract as of December 1, 2003. The letter can claim that in your Hs revised biz plan for 2004 he will be scaling back his service area and customer base. He can recommend his competitor(s) as alternate service providers. That would be a professional and impersonal way to END the continued association with her.
Just a thought (and lord knows I'm to nuts lately to give sound advise).
T2
Quote:
btw it should make you happy to know that I've looked up the audio for mars and venus...attempted to order two copies (they are only 10 a piece on the gray site) but my puter is acting up so I'll have to try again later.
Best Price: $1.94
Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus : A Practical Guide for Improving Communication and Getting What You Want in Your Relationship (Audio Cassette, 1994) Other Editions...Author: Gray
Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus at HALF.COM
puter still not allowing me to process an order...but I will...or ok at least I'll pick up the written copy that I already have and read a bit more of it!
still feeling a bit of yuck...
still feeling like ow should go...
been pondering how the heck I'm supposed to trust h when I've already learned what a good liar he is and how easily I can be fooled by him.
still wanting to sit down and hash some important crap out with h but don't have the energy to or much desire to really do so productively.
h sat in the basement watching the sox last night while I sat upstairs...
tonight I'm going out with some friends..
tommorow night I'll read or work on a pooh & friends latch hook rug for dd's room.
fri night I'll do whatever I didn't do thurs night and
sat night we'll go to the drive-in.
I'm sure h wont mind me keeping myself otherwise occupied until sat and then thereafter until some other issue that he chooses to aviod by asking me on a date arises.
here's a strange note...h had some gravel delivered for the end of the driveway...I assumed the man driving the truck knew him because he stood there talking and talking to me after I told him where h wanted the stuff dropped...turns out he doesn't know h at all...but he stood there talking to me for at least 15 min...odd if ya ask me...should I have shut the door in his face and said ok dump it there good bye? would I be as foolish as ow and let him come back again to just talk to me??? certainly NOT! but I suppose I can see how easy it can happen to a pathetic person...guess I'm not nearly as pathetic as I sometimes think!
LL
LL,
Quote:
I'm not nearly as pathetic as I sometimes think!
You? Pathetic? Never!! You are a goddess--believe it. What's wrong with a conversation as long as you know where to draw the line. I have conversations with OM all the time, yet I too know where to draw the line.
Cathy
Quote:
h had some gravel delivered for the end of the driveway...I assumed the man driving the truck knew him because he stood there talking and talking to me after I told him where h wanted the stuff dropped...turns out he doesn't know h at all...but he stood there talking to me for at least 15 min...odd if ya ask me..
Make sure you tell H about him!!!
PS:We have a pool going on on when you will it 5000 replies, do you want to get in on it.
Hi LL,
Just checking in to see how you are, I have been thinking and thinking about your sitch. For some reason it has me hooked (I guess because of similarities to mine). I keep thinking of stuff and wanting to post but never get a chance to be at computer. When kids are not around then H is and he hogs it.
When you say H and you have never been friends this rings a bell with me. My H is just not the friendly type I guess, he does have friends (male friends) who he bonds with over a beer but as for hanging out and chatting with me - I don't think I ever see a more desparate or bored look on someone's face than when I am just there trying to have a friendly chat about nothing much. So I think we need to broaden our lives out LL. In the past people didn't rely so much on their spouses to provide everything in their lives. I think our society has become too closed in (having to drive everywhere, nuclear family etc). So especially women stuck home with the kids NEED their H so much more for company than used to be the case. I think building up our friendship base (both male and female as long as you know where to draw the line) and letting H's get on with being who they want to be within M is the way to go.
As you have already found he comes running when you withdraw, the more you have a life outside of M the happier you will be as LL and the more attractive to him you will be.
On the OW question - she has to go. Maybe you should ask him what he's afraid of by ending her contract. Men hate being told their afraid of something.
take care
Fran
what it all boils down to is I don't trust h...at all..every thing he tells me I question in my mind..
ie..this morning he called to say hello and see how we all were doing and to pass on the very sad news that one of his football going friends lost a young child to drowning...he was letting me know so that if he tells me he's going to a wake I'll know who. sick person that I am a part of me says oh ya sure you're going to a wake and another part of me thinks what a horrible person I must be to think that he would lie about such a thing.
I don't know how to get the trust back, I just don't. Some would say I shouldn't trust him..but if I don't trust him then what the heck is this all supposed to be??
LL
Quoting lostlove:
what it all boils down to is I don't trust h...at all..every thing he tells me I question in my mind..
LL -- Is it that you really don't trust h? (Like, you honestly think for a second that h would lie about this kind of thing...) or is it that your brain is on autopilot questioning everything he says? Just out of habit or fear...like "he could be lying about this".
Do you see the difference?
One is related directly to h and your ability to trust him.
The other is sort of a defense mechanism...a running commentary in your head...that probably has more to do with the overall situation than with how you currently feel about H in particular.
Sage - who KNOWS what she means but isn't all all sure this post made sense.
sage,
it's all a defense in some way or another isn't it?
Quote:
LL -- Is it that you really don't trust h? (Like, you honestly think for a second that h would lie about this kind of thing...) or is it that your brain is on autopilot questioning everything he says? Just out of habit or fear...like "he could be lying about this".
it's not so much I think that h would lie about such a thing, it's more that I now belive he COULD lie about such a thing..not that the child died any one who would make up such a lie is just twisted, but more that he would use going to the wake as a cover to go anywhere and not tell me..and not especially anything to do with ow or any w.
I want to trust him...but when I did trust him after first finding out about ow...I was a fool..he lied to my face over and over again...so I don't know that I can or should trust him now.
LL
Quote:
None of us likes to feel at risk. We all take different steps to protect ourselves from potential loss. Some, for example, are so afraid of failure that they avoid it by never attempting anything difficult. That's rather like being so worried about a burglary that you refuse to accumulate so much as a single possession. You are now being very brave. In the process, you are undoubtedly exposing yourself to a possible let-down. But you are also preparing yourself for a much more possible (and likely) moment of triumph.
horoscopes can be so bizarre can't they?
LL
((((((((((((LL))))))))))))),
I am so sorry to see how you are feeling.... I'd been avoiding your thread because my own M is over, and I thought you were doing great...
I think I know how hard this is for you. My H's internet porn/phone sex habit destroyed the trust between us, and it was only when he left that I realized how I had never really managed to totally let go of that and trust him. I think that played a big role in the breakdown of our M. It scares me to see you stuck in the same kind of place I was for 7 years. It isn't good for your M, but more importantly, it isn't good for you.... So, if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about my sitch a bit, hoping it will help you...
Not trusting my H undermined my self-esteem, made me feel insecure and unsure of myself, and haunted me as I fell asleep, and every time there was some missing time.... It kept real intimacy from returning to our M. Unfortunately, I didn't find the resources to let the past go until the bomb. I was always waiting for him to prove me stupid for having trusted him again... To pull my world out from under me once again... Once the bomb fell, I got over it, I don't know how or why, but it is different now.
This makes me think that the trust issue was about me and my fears about being duped. There has been a real shift here with me about this. At the end of July, after things had been looking up, H got involved with another OW, lied flat out to me about it, asked for a D, and moved in with her a few weeks later. Now, the thing is, he had promised to be honest about what was going on with this stuff, I chose to trust that he would be honest, and then he lied again. But, my reaction was totally different. I was not devastated by his lies, I did not feel like a victim, I did not feel like I was stupid for having trusted him once again. It was my choice to trust him again. I did it for myself and for our M to have a chance. I recognized and accepted the risk. And, when he lied again, my reaction was something like "too bad that didn't pay off, but it was worth the risk..." This was huge for me, and so very different. Why? I think because I gave him trust without also putting my world in his hands. DBing helped me take responsibility for my own happiness, so maybe that is why I could do it.
I regret that I couldn't do it before, I think it could have made all the difference. You want your H to be your friend and lover, but these things won't come without trust. You might think you hide it well, I thought I did. But, maybe I didn't so well, and it certainly blocked me from taking the leaps necessary for the intimacy in the kind of R I wanted. I wanted to stay safe and have my H cross the intimacy divide alone to get to my side. I felt it was his responsibility to do all the work, that he owed it to me for causing the rift to begin with. So, think of a tightrope. I wanted H to cross the tightrope alone to get to my landing, and thought then we would be where we should be. But, true intimacy only comes when both people take the risk, walk toward each other on the tightrope, and help each other balance in the middle.
I so hope you can find a way to meet your H in the middle. I know you feel that you've done more than your share. I felt the same way. Again with the tightrope--I fooled myself into thinking I'd stepped out, but my lack of trust kept me firmly tethered to my landing.
OK, this is getting way too rambly. I'll just close by telling you what I wish I'd done... Rather than trying not to rock the boat and assuming time would be the solution, I wish I had said "H, I have to lay it on the line. This M is not what I want. I want a vibrant, healthy relationship with a man who is my best friend and lover. I believe that we can have that kind of R, but not until trust is restored. This will take work, it won't happen without work, and I don't want to stay in this M unless we commit to doing the work together. Get the damn "After the Affair" book (which we had gotten) out of the closet and lets work through it together. Let's read the stuff in DB on rebuilding trust after affairs, and discuss what works there for each of us. This is not something that can fall by the wayside. We need to reevaluate each month to make sure that we continue to make progress. I am scared to death to tell you all this, I am scared that you will leave me and think this M is not worth the work, I am scared that you will agree and then nothing will happen. My fear comes from my lack of trust. So, telling you all this is a big leap of faith for me. I am taking a big risk for myself, for you, and for our M. So, what do you say? Can you take the leap with me?"
OK, rambling again.... I guess the main point is that my fear and lack of trust got in the way of my even being honest about the lack of trust, and of insisting that I would only remain in an R in which the trust was rebuilt.
Whew. Sorry for the stream of consciousness thing... But I've been worried about you and this trust problem for some time... I hate to see you make the mistakes I made... I think it is time to tackle this trust thing head on, either make it happen or get out of the R. You deserve the kind of R that can only come with trust.
Hugs,
Acorn
Acorn -- what an astonishing, insightful, wise and wonderful post. I'm glad to see you back...and very, very grateful that you have shared these thoughts with us.
I hope you don't mind but I feel as though I MUST copy this post to a thread we have regarding "advice to newcomers to piecing".
Sage
LL,
I 'feel ya,' as the kids say today.
It is haunting ghost we live with, those bold faced lies, the deception so easily run past us....I know that I 'question' a lot of what my H says, no matter how 'innocent' the statement I find myself LOOKING for the hidden agenda behind it.
All the second quessing we do is our FEAR and our SELF PRESERVATION trying to kick in to keep us from being 'conned' again. It will probably take many months to years to get over those feelings completely.
As an example of my 'craziness' just this morning, the 'bug guy' came to spray all around the outside of the house (we live off the water so spiders are an issue). When I brought him his check, I realized the "bug guy" this time WAS a guy that lived w/H when H was first thrown out. This guy knew about OW etc. My H hasn't told me this guy now works for the bug company OR that he's now living with another of my H's AA buddys. When he began talking to me and I suddenly realized WHO he was, my heart sank, my stomach went into knots and I thought, "How come when my H called to say the bug guy was coming he didn't tell me it would be this guy OR that THIS guy now lives at his other friends house where my H likes to hang out.
Although none of the above makes a hill of beans in my life, it was just another example of my H leaving me out of the loop...keeping the activities of his AA circle of friends "secret" from me. Ugh...
It's all this petty little stuff that adds fuel to the fire.
T2
Acorn,
You sound very strong and introspective about your current M situation and I applaud you.
In some ways, I have taken the same position you did. While I remain vigilant and watchful for the "hidden agenda" in my Hs words and deeds, I have actually told him that THIS TIME if he's lying, or being deceptive, the ONLY ONE he's really lying to is himself because I'm not going to be in the "You've been conned again" loop anymore. I've told him that I am not taking what he says on face value, I am looking for action/proof that what he is saying and doing now are REAL. BUT, the truth is, that if I were to find out he was continuing to deceive me and has just become an all time pro at it, I will be devestated if the reality of that comes to light.
I don't want to look over my shoulder, read into everything he says for double meanings, second guess his every action or inaction....but that is the fallout of this adulterous hell we've all lived through AND it does fall to them to reassure us that we can begin to feel 'safe' again.
JMHO
T2
acorn,
as always nice to hear from you!
I know that I have general trust issues with the world but I did for whatever reason trust h at one time...but then again maybe I never did fully trust him...and now that I have reason not to trust him or rather that he's proven himself to be untrustworthy...I'm at a loss.
Do I just trust him blindy and not protect myself?
Do I trust him but keep an eye out?
I just don't know HOW to trust h even when he's under the same roof with me or in the same room. It's not so much a matter of where he goes and what he does now (though that stuff creeps in too) it's him in general...now he's joined the rest of the world in being untrustable and there to just take advantage of me if I'm foolish enough to allow it.
crimeny!! I guess I have some issues.
LL
Hey LL,
I know what you mean about not knowing HOW to trust again. I tried so hard and couldn't until it was too late. But, that played a big role in why my R never truly healed. I don't know exactly why the shift happened for me as it did. I just hope you can make the shift sooner
I think, at bottom, it has something to do with the idea that my choice to trust him (post bomb) was a risk I was willing to take for my own reasons. And, I finally got that if he betrayed that trust, it was about him, not about me. It didn't mean that I was a stupid person, a door mat, a desparate person with no self-esteem. On the contrary, I chose to take the risk for the best reasons, I did the right thing, It was he that didn't. Before, the breach of trust was not only hard R-wise, but personally. I felt like sh*t about myself beyond the heartbreak of the R stuff. But now, hey, I'm a good person, with a good heart, who tried my best, who is willing to take a risk on someone. Yay! People will always let you down, sadly enough, but we let ourselves down if we let this keep us from putting ourselves out there...
Hugs,
Acorn
Quoting Trying24now:
... if I were to find out he was continuing to deceive me and has just become an all time pro at it, I will be devestated if the reality of that comes to light.
...AND it does fall to them to reassure us that we can begin to feel 'safe' again.
The old "conned again" loop... Being devastated if they do it again... Their responsibility... Boy, does that sound familiar. Exactly where I was stuck for years and it sucks.
I think the reason I didn't feel conned again this last time, (though I did have a thread called "done being duped", lol), is that I made the choice to trust fully recognizing that I might be let down. So, I really wasn't conned again, I was disappointed. This is a big difference for me... Before, when I tried to trust, I thought that meant I had to have blind faith. This last time, it meant that I would not bury my head in the sand, but that I would have the expectation that he would be honest with me. Hmmmm. It is so hard to describe....
Suppose you hire a shoplifter to work in your store who is supposedly reformed. You might have no doubts about them, and be devastated when they steal from you. You might not ever really trust them, be ever watchful, and no matter how you tried to hide this, they will know, and likely wind up stealing from you as a result, a la self-fulfilling prophecy. Or you might choose to trust them, but in a realistic manner. This wouldn't mean that they wouldn't have to work on keeping and increasing your trust. You start small and increase the trust as they earn more. But this is a mutual effort... Unless you take the risk to let them unpack stock, without assuming they will steal it, they'll never succeed in earning your trust so that you are comfortable letting them run the cash register. Now, suppose you took that risk, and then they stole from you. Would you feel conned? Or would you feel disappointed, but glad that you did the right thing in helping the person?
Yeah, another hokey analogy, but my point is that trust is between two people, one person can destroy the trust, but one person cannot rebuild it, no matter how unfair that seems... Waiting for them to do so sets you both up for failure.
Now, I don't mean that the person who broke the trust doesn't need to do a lot of work. In DR, I think, there's an example of a S who had an A who made themselves an open book. I think that is a wonderful act, and one that you might reasonably ask for. But, when I was stuck in the old conned again loop, my H did this for a long time, and it still wasn't enough. If he took to long at the store, I would worry years later. Poor guy. Yuck. As long as rebuilding trust is one person's responsibility, it is an impossible task.
A final thought: LL wrote that she didn't know HOW to trust again. I felt the same way. I also didn't know HOW to forgive. I'm doing much better with the trust thing, and am getting closer to the forgiveness thing. But, they both turn on doing it for ourselves. Michelle tells us that forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Trust is also a gift we give ourselves.
Boy, am I wordy today, lol.
Acorn
wow acorn
what a clear headed response to an age old problem. you see i am stuck in the "feeling like a fool" mode, and this really helps out with that problem. i have been wondering lately "how can i ever trust again" - and this certainly helps
sorry ll, to hijack your thread
kitti
Some say love, it is a river
that drowns the tender reed.
Some say love, it is a razor
that leaves your soul to bleed.
Some say love, it is a hunger,
an endless aching need.
I say love, it is a flower,
and you its only seed.
It's the heart afraid of breaking
that never learns to dance.
It's the dream afraid of waking
that never takes the chance.
It's the one who won't be taken,
who cannot seem to give,
and the soul afraid of dyin'
that never learns to live.
When the night has been too lonely
and the road has been to long,
and you think that love is only
for the lucky and the strong,
just remember in the winter
far beneath the bitter snows
lies the seed that with the sun's love
in the spring becomes the rose.
excellent time for me to read those lyrics, thanks for posting them...
i am bringing this over from shiny's thread so i wont hijack her thread any more than i already have.
Quote:
don't know how specific you are being with the word "intimate"
sex, plain and simple. LOL
Quote:
but I will tell you that when my h first started to come around...and was trying to come home...though he would intitate physcial contact he would not intitate the actual act itself...he knew how I felt about it...and left it to be my decision when I was ready for it.
hmmm, my hubby is not initiating anything, despite maybe some hugs goodbye or some good morning hugs.
Quote:
I'm saying this because you may be making some assumptions about your h's thinking and why he may not be initiating things...since he was the one to stray perhaps he's leaving it to you to inititate he may not feel it's his place to do so.
about two weeks ago things got a little hot and heavy while we were in bed, during the night. he stopped cold turkey and said he couldn't, that it didn't feel right yet and that he wanted me to be patient with him. he more than knows i am ready to "consumate" this thing, but he is not ready. i could be negative and say that he is holding back so that i might leave and find it somewhere else, but the truth be known, i really feel like he is holding back because he wants ME to be sure, and he won't do this until he is straight with himself, and he isn't yet. he has told me that.
i appreciate the insight, but i do believe he KNOWS i am ready to jump his bones. one - because i haven't had any for a LONG while, and two - cause i want this new r to start and this to me is where the healing begins
kitti
Quote:
i appreciate the insight, but i do believe he KNOWS i am ready to jump his bones. one - because i haven't had any for a LONG while, and two - cause i want this new r to start and this to me is where the healing begins
why does the consumation of the r signal the start of the r and the begining of healing?
LL
Quote:
once we have been "intimate" that to me would show that we are ready to work together on this marriage. he knows that step means we (me) cannot go back, we have to make it work.
in my head, once sex has taken place (which to me is the outward manifistation of the inward feeling of forgiveness) that is when we can leave the past behind and get on to a newer and better relationship. it would be like starting over.
now of course you have to realize these are my "feelings" - so they may sound crazy, but that is how i feel. i won't think we are BOTH working on this until sex has taken place.
weird?
kitti
Quoting kewlkitti:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
once we have been "intimate" that to me would show that we are ready to work together on this marriage. he knows that step means we (me) cannot go back, we have to make it work.
in my head, once sex has taken place (which to me is the outward manifistation of the inward feeling of forgiveness) that is when we can leave the past behind and get on to a newer and better relationship. it would be like starting over.
now of course you have to realize these are my "feelings" - so they may sound crazy, but that is how i feel. i won't think we are BOTH working on this until sex has taken place.
weird?
kitti
not weird at all...but if I'm reading what you are saying..it is not that the act has to take place for the r to begin or for the healing to start..but that the act is a display showing that the r has started etc.
I'm just trying to understand what you are saying...I think I get it...but the way you are putting it almost sounds like the r starts with sex...rather than the r grows and leads up to sex.
LL
ok ll, i see where you are...
Quote:
I'm just trying to understand what you are saying...I think I get it...but the way you are putting it almost sounds like the r starts with sex...rather than the r grows and leads up to sex.
no...the r doesn't start with sex, and i see where i was confusing on that issue. all the things i am doing (the db'n and goals and things) are all going to lead up to the act (well i hope so anyway) which would then signify we are BOTH working on this r together after the act takes place.
so you are more then correct when you say that it grows and leads up to sex. as it should be in any lasting relationship eh?
a r based solely on sex from the very start isn't a r at all - but that is up to interpretation LOL
i think we are clear now eh?
kitti
Quote:
i think we are clear now eh?
yup!
but, what if you tried not to put so much emphasis on the act...and just looked at the progression of the r itself for what it is. Is it possible for the r to get to where you want it before the act happens...is it possible to know that you and h are working on it with out the act?
if your goals all lead up to the act then what after the act is all I'm asking?
I understand where you are comming from...I'm just trying to understand where it is you are going.
LL
good questions all of them...
i think my original point to shiny was that i don't think i would be "piecing" my marriage together and so belong in this forum until i knew in my heart that i was actually PIECING - and that wont come until i feel that we are doing this together - and then the point i see us working on it together is the act.
HA
ok...but i like your question here
Quote:
if your goals all lead up to the act then what after the act is all I'm asking?
well ALL my goals don't lead up to the act, i haven't really focused in on "what happens after we ml" - my goals right now are "what can i do to make myself more desirable to my husband"
i haven't crossed any of my smaller goals in that regard yet, so i am not even focusing in on what happens NEXT...LOL
thanks ll for taking the time to walk me thru this
peace, kitti
Kitti, LL,
My two cents, my H and I have ML more than a couple of times since he left and to me that means he still doesn't know what he's doing, that he's probably coming back. So as long as he's still wanting me, there's still a chance for us. After we make love he's more open and talkative and caring. So this is a good thing for us.
Cathy
cathy,
there is no doubt it's a good thing...well most of the time..depends on where it is comming from.
when my h first left he did initiate a few times..and I of course accepted...but then he decided it wasn't fair to me and stopped...stopped everything..I didn't even get the obligatory kiss everyone else did when I'd see him
.
anywho...
deciding that perhaps I am expecting too much from h....
why can I not go to him and greet him cheerfully without fear when he comes home????????
there is no reason...so why don't I???
well LL get over your fear of rejection and greet the man....heck run with the kids to greet him!
so that's the new plan.
throw caution to the wind.
LL
Quoting lostlove:
well LL get over your fear of rejection and greet the man....heck run with the kids to greet him!
so that's the new plan.
throw caution to the wind.
LL
YEEHAH!!!
Sage
LL,
Quote:
why can I not go to him and greet him cheerfully without fear when he comes home????????
there is no reason...so why don't I???
well LL get over your fear of rejection and greet the man....heck run with the kids to greet him!
so that's the new plan.
throw caution to the wind.
I read this and it sounds exactly like me. I was the same way I wanted to be at the door to greet him when he came home from work everyday, to give him a hug and ask how his day was, but I never did. I was afraid or just plain lazy and this is something he would have loved for me to do. It's definitely something I need to work on and even now that he's not here, when he does come over I have great big smile for him and make it a point to say Hello. At some point the hug will come, also. I'm learning this from my son. When dad comes over, he's the happiest little boy in the world, his smile lights up and he runs and hugs him!!
Cathy
Cathy
Quote:
I'm learning this from my son. When dad comes over, he's the happiest little boy in the world, his smile lights up and he runs and hugs him!!
We have a great deal to learn about unconditional love from the innocence of our children don't we. Love with NO agenda but the love itself....where did we all lose that?
Thank you for sharing your son's perspective, it reminded me of something very important.
T2
All Right LL!!!
I just had an "aha moment" myself. CJ tends to pop into whatever room I'm in when he gets home to say hi. I sometimes just come in, change, turn on the computer.
I'll bet anything that this little change in my behaviour would mean a lot to him. Thanks!
Excellent food for thought on these posts, huh kk?
Shiny
ok so...h arived home last night and I greeted him...or at least met him half way...wasn't feeling all that bold...so maybe I had a little extra excuse as he was to get ready to go to a rather depressing wake for a 3year old boy.
so I snuck in a hug...as he hugged me back it seemed as if he needed it...I wanted to cry...but instead said..."I don't always hug you or greet you when you come home...it's not that I don't want too it's just that I'm afraid you may not want me to."
h's response was rather comical..."ya I know..I'm not always huggable...I'm a moody bastard" (I'm not certain that he said bastard but it is something he would say..he did once leave a message on my cell refering to himself as "your misserable bastard h" again not in a way that indicated I think so..but perhaps a realization that at times he gets so wrapped up with what's going on in HIS day that he can be short and irritable with others...and it isn't fair to ME.
so I think that went well...better than I expected actually.
so h went to the wake...I took care of the kiddos...h called on the way home...I can't believe they had an open casket...I would not be able to get that pic out of my mind..heck I wasn't even there and I have the image in my head..so very sad...so when h arrived I gave him a hug and let him know that son was still awake upstairs that he wanted a kiss from daddy (think it may have been a good idea for h to be able to say hi to his son while awake after such a wake) I got h's dinner heated up and sat back on the couch...h joined me and talked a bit about the wake and the "guys" that were there...he couldn't believe that some of them were actually drinking beers in the p-lot..ugh! at least h comments on it as if wtf guys? glad they are just the guys that he goes to the games with and nothing more, not bad people just well you know...somehow we started talking about memories and school and what teachers we had etc (we didn't go to the same schools so it was more a re-sharing of our own stuff) we both went up to bed at the same time and it was comfortable...wich hasn't happend in a while as h's been falling asleep on the couches. I had hoped for something but I suppose the fact that we were both there is enough.
so tonight we go on our "date" to the drive-in...I've made a dip to bring along and some popcorn, should be nice to get out...
h is talking about using one of our time share weeks to take a mini (sat-wed) vaca for our anniversary...I think it's a great idea, however...I don't much feel like celebrating our anniversary as the day honestly means little to me now.
. I don't want a new anniversary but I would like a re-newal of our vows...h knows about my desire for that to happen but I don't know if he would ever initiate it and if I initiated and he simply accepted how would I then feel???
just blabing now...
LL
ps. my h just smiled at me!
he's outside cutting the lawn and as I walked across the yard down to the play area to get a wagon for a friend to borrow he looked over and smiled at me....
such a simple act yet so powerful!
LL
LL,
Quote:
ok so...h arived home last night and I greeted him...or at least met him half way...wasn't feeling all that bold...so
maybe I had a little extra excuse as he was to get ready to go to a rather depressing wake for a 3year old boy.
so I snuck in a hug...as he hugged me back it seemed as if he needed it...I wanted to cry...but instead
said..."I don't always hug you or greet you when you come home...it's not that I don't want too it's just that I'm
afraid you may not want me to."
h's response was rather comical..."ya I know..I'm not always huggable...I'm a moody bastard" (I'm not certain
that he said bastard but it is something he would say..he did once leave a message on my cell refering to himself
as "your misserable bastard h" again not in a way that indicated I think so..but perhaps a realization that at
times he gets so wrapped up with what's going on in HIS day that he can be short and irritable with others...and
it isn't fair to ME.
so I think that went well...better than I expected actually.
This is great! You did it and it wasn't that bad. Now keep it up even if you don't want to, do it anyways. It will make a difference and be a 180 on him. I hate to keep bringing up my s3, but there are times when I hug him and he doesn't want to be hugged or pushes me away and it never bothers me. But, if that were to happen with H, I would be very hurt and it would be enough for me not to try again and to pull away from him. I've also never told H that I've wanted to hug him, but didn't think he wanted me to and it sounds like it worked for you. There have also been times when I've wanted a hug from H but never asked. It's funny how once you do something or ask for something and you get it you wonder why you didn't ask sooner.
I wasn't brought up in a "hugging" environment and so hugging was always very uncomfortable for me. I am getting so much better. One of the signs or tests for me when my H decided he wasn't happy was that he hugged me one night and made eye contact. I was feeling such intense emotion and love for him that it scared me and I broke it off. But to him, it meant I didn't care about him. And because of this incident, at this point in his mind he decided he was going tolook for happiness elsewhere. He told me this not too long after the bomb and I then told him about my perception...but it was too late.
Okay I'm rambling at your post about me....have a great time tonight!!!!
Cathy
Yeah, have a great "date" LL!!!
What are you going to see?
I haven't been to the drive-in since I was 15...we went to see the Exorcist whilst in a drug induced altered state...not my greatest idea. Especially when I spotted a huge spider on our speaker!!!
(Yes this was back in the day of the window speakers...our drive in was torn down decades ago
).
Shiny
P.S. Wonder if he picked a drive in so's you could make out a 'lil?
Quote:
One of the signs or tests for me when my H decided he wasn't happy was that he hugged me one night and made eye contact. I was feeling such intense emotion and love for him that it scared me and I broke it off. But to him, it meant I didn't care about him.
Cathy.
This seems to be recurring theme, this hugging is powerful stuff, how come nobody included in the marriage manual.
I read somewhere else, how a WAW would have been swayed, had her H hug her in her moment of indecision.
Also this eye contact , would like to hear more opinions on that from the group.
I think I got it now, when in doubt, HUG
I have spent the last hour or so reading this entire post. I have been DBing for about a year and a half. My H never left or had and affair or anything. Just drifted away and became angry and distant. 6 months ago he discovered he had a hormone imbalance. Since he started the medication he has become a different person. Much less irritable, more loving at times and much more into sex. Unfortunately there are other problems that have surfaced with his renewed sexuality. We have had to work through some things that I would never have anticipated. What we are left with is a marriage where he sleeps on the couch because he has difficulty sleeping and can watch tv without waking me. I go to sleep early because I am tired after working and dealing with house and kids. We have moments of great sex but little else in terms of intimacy. Add to this the fact that I started a new job and he is trying to launch a business. He thinks things are better but I can't seem to stop feeling sad and lonely. We rarely have the several day fights we once had and we do have moments of laughter and talk. He is getting pretty tired of my moodiness. Does this make any sense to anyone? How do I get him to reconnect with me and start creating those rituals? Am I asking too much to soon? I am exhausted. Thanks for your help.
Maddie
I have to agree on the subject of hugging:
Poepad said:
Quote:
Cathy.
This seems to be recurring theme, this hugging is powerful stuff, how come nobody included in the marriage manual.
I read somewhere else, how a WAW would have been swayed, had her H hug her in her moment of indecision.
A hug IS powerful! My WAH is hugging me at times and that gives me hope. Because I know him well, I know that hug MEANS something! His punishment when we would fight was to withhold physical affection, so now he is initiating it, I am confused.
Just my 2 cents...take all the hugs you can get from these aliens! LOL
~~~Debi
Hi LL,
Hugs definitely work! When H and I had the talk which meant he came back the way I knew he was ready was because he hugged me.
You definitely should run and greet him with the kids, it's simple he sees these little wide-eyed kids run up to him all smiles and jump into his arms and W is there somewhere in the background. First words are probably going to be some sort of instruction or complaint. It's weird how we fall into these habits.
Anyhow I read somewhere about a couple who noticed how the most friendly greeter of all in their house was the dog, so they decided to Top the Dog and now run towards each other arms akimbo and whooping then leap at each other for a big bear hug. OK maybe that's a little over the top, but since I read that I have been gradually acting more friendly and excited when H comes home. You know trying to push past the kids and get there first, stuff like that. We make a joke of it by I am sure H likes it and I do too. His reponse has become warmer too. Even when I don't feel like doing it I do it anyway now.
take care
Fran
Quoting shinybear:
P.S. Wonder if he picked a drive in so's you could make out a 'lil?
HA HA!! not so much as a good night kiss...ok well the standard peck on the forehead but that's about it! and it's been two weeks since anything.
we did have a nice time though...
LL
on another note.
regarding the spending of money and how I feel like h calls all the shots...
I didn't use that stance but I did ask if I could get "payed" like fifty dollars a week...
not money to "hide" but money so that when it comes to christmas or his birthday I actually feel like I bought him a gift rather than just went out and picked something up with "his" money...
it matters not to h where the money comes from...
but I think he did get the concept that I would like to have something that's mine...
I also noted that if there get's to be a build up of money and I wanted to get something for the house like say a kitchen island wich wasn't in the "budget" for the time, I could use "my" money to get such items.
h seemed to understand and it sounded like a doable thing...we'll see how it works out...I'll take the new job aproach...typically you don't get paid the first week at work so I'll let a week go buy before I mention it again.
the convo came from him talking about money so I wasn't just pulling it out of the air.
it would be nice to have my "own" money to make decisions with even if only a small stash...I haven't had my own money since we got married...even before the kids arived, I gave my paycheck directly to h to deposit.
LL
Lucy,
This is one I can help you on, during our couseling at the 5 year mark, we explain to the couseler that we argue over pennies spent.
The couselor's solution was simple. Each person gets so much a pay, say $50.00 each in your case and that money cannot be questioned. Does not matter is the others buys $50 of ice cream.
Next we had to ask permission of the other spouse for not normal purchases of $20.00 or more.
And finally, all recepts where placed in a box and a monthly ledger was filled in. This reduced money arguments to nill.
Quoting poepad:
Lucy,
This is one I can help you on, during our couseling at the 5 year mark, we explain to the couseler that we argue over pennies spent.
The couselor's solution was simple. Each person gets so much a pay, say $50.00 each in your case and that money cannot be questioned. Does not matter is the others buys $50 of ice cream.
Next we had to ask permission of the other spouse for not normal purchases of $20.00 or more.
And finally, all recepts where placed in a box and a monthly ledger was filled in. This reduced money arguments to nill.
poe,
we do not argue over money..and there will never come a time when I know what h does with all his money or have a say in how he spends his money...
he is a business owner and therefore has access to "other" money outside of "our" household budget.
fair?? probably not...
but...
I have a credit card...
the atm card...
etc....
I can go to walmart or wheverever and purchase clothing for the children or odds and ends of small amounts for the house without much question...h has never accused me of being a shopoholic has only on occassion asked that I try to keep the spending down a bit to catch up.
we carry no credit card balance...and that is how h likes to keep it.
when it comes to major purchases for the house...when they occur is at h's discretion...does that bother me??? well only if I want something for the house and I'm told "in time" is it hugely important??? no.
if I withraw 60 bucks from the atm to go out with my friends does h question what I did with the cash since that is not "traceable" via credit card?? no.
it is more about me wanting to have my own money just like he has his "other" money...
money that I can spend and know that I wont be questioned about or commented at for because it's MY money to spend however I want...if I want to use it to buy him a gift well then I bought the gift..if I want to buy something for the house that I want well then I can...
that's all it is...a bit of independence seeking is all I suppose it's something that should have existed from the begining of our m but I didn't think anything of it back then..but now that I don't actually bring in any pay it all feels like HIS money...and even though this "pay" would come from him...it is earned...maybe I'd start doing his laundry again.
LL
LL,
It has been a while. It is hard to keep up your thread, lots of good discussion going on.
I don't have much to offer, besides I hear your agony. I share the same emotions as Acorn that I thought you were so much happier than us in that you were piecing. But I guess that was not completely right. Nothing in R is ever easy.
I just have a couple of questions, some of which may be based on some misceptions. So please ignore them if they are way off base.
About $$, about trusts, I see all of them important issues in R, and they seemed to create lots of anxiety in your mind. Do they have something to do with the fact that you chose to stay home taking care of your little ones? I know taking care of your loved ones is gratifying for you, but have you ever clarified with yourself with your goals in your life, and whether the path you are on would lead to a fulfilling life for YOU, LL? This is the life goals of LL we talk about, in regardless of the worldly responsibilities imposed on you. What are some of the life goals that you are in the path to achieve now?
Second, If I remembered correctly, either the father of yours or your H walked way from the family. That was a devastating event. Is it possible that the experience somehow contributed to your distrusts and perhaps other destructive behaviors? How have you come to terms with that experience so far?
That said, I would like to say that you are doing well to practice what you have learned so far, like your ability to share your feelings with your H and us, wherever appropriate. It was a great risk you took whenever you shared that with your H, especially about your fear of rejection of hugs, and it seemed that you got reciprocation. Good for you.
Just a few wild thoughts...
Chuck
hey chuck,
as always great to hear from you and you bring up some valid points...most significantly
Quote:
Second, If I remembered correctly, either the father of yours or your H walked way from the family. That was a devastating event. Is it possible that the experience somehow contributed to your distrusts and perhaps other destructive behaviors? How have you come to terms with that experience so far?
it was my father....
growing up I knew there was something wrong with my parents r but I didn't give much thought to the fact that they shared different bedrooms for a while.
it wasn't until I was about 16 and my mother while I was arguing with my father told h (then bf) that my dad had not lived with us for a while when I was little (til I was about 3 to be exact)
dad had cheated on mom...mom threw him out and eventually took him back (she got tired of being alone with three kids)
dad continued to cheat but mom didn't always know...she knew of some but I suppose chose to ignore it.
eventually we moved to a new house and things seemed wonderful (in my moms eyes) for about ten years..
then shortly after I was engaged I got a call on the 4th of july while at work from my mother that she had caught dad with another woman the night before.
dad moved in and out of the house had several different apartments.
I wathced my mother drown in her mysery...I wathced them go back and forth...pretending to be a loving couple getting over a mistake to fighting and his leaving yet again.
dad couln't make the decision between my mom and the new lady (wich is not a word I use to describe her) even though he supposedly tried to cut it off with her.
mom eventually had enough and filed for d...
my dad to this day says he didn't want a d...but admits he probably wasn't going to give up ow and wanted both.
does this effect the way I now see my h??
it didn't before because I never compared h to my father..they were two different people with little similarities...
now when I look at h there are some and I can't stand it..something as simple as the sniffles makes me cringe as my father often had the sniffles (and no it's not related to cocaine use) I suppose it's just a guy thing.
is it fair that I hold these thoughts of h being like my father..nope...but wtf am I suppose to do with the fear...h started the wheels in motion..
my mother even says they are different...and I suppose they are...it's just hard to trust.
as far as my personal goals...well I know that I can't fully envelope myself in anything for a few years (when dd starts school) but I do have some things in mind...my mother worked hard to put me through college and I will not let my degree go to waiste..I am still young and the kids wont be so dependant forever.
LL
LL,
I realize this is a forum with R or M, so I am glad you did not take offense of my questions, as I have more to badger about your feelings and communications with all of your immediate family members, not just with your H...
Quoting lostlove:
dad had cheated on mom...mom threw him out and eventually took him back (she got tired of being alone with three kids)
I am sorry about that experience you had about your Dad. How do you FEEL about his decisions and actions? Anger, devastation, fear, or anything else? Did you talk about these FEELINGS with your mom? How does she FEEL? Can you and your mom openly talk about this terrible experience, or you feel that it is a taboo that you are compelled to protect her from getting in touch with this past history?
On the same token, did you share your feelings, in a calm and non-judgmental way, with your dad? Can you talk about this at all with the idea to understand more about the circumstances involved? Can you tell me, in an objective understanding, what kind of person (not the sense of good or bad, but what kind of personality) he is, what his feelings were when he had those cheating actions, what his thought process were, his achievements in his life besides R, and how he feels now towards his decisions over the years?
Quoting lostlove:
as far as my personal goals...well I know that I can't fully envelope myself in anything for a few years (when dd starts school) but I do have some things in mind...
Well, LL, how do you FEEL about this choice? I know you are a dedicated mom and taking care of the kids and your home is a gratifying experience to you. But do you feel comfortable with where you are so far with regards to your plan, or you feel you are imposed with the obligations that inevitably distract you from where you want to be personally? After all, do you feel satisfied to define the life of LL by taking care of family and kids? What are the plans, no matter preliminary or detailed, that you have to define LL's entire life in the future that you can share with us?
How about your mom? Where do you see her, by your OWN standard, in terms of having a successful and balanced life between her career and the kids? Did you share your feelings about your own life plan, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, with your mom? Did you feel you want to do more than she did after you earned your degree, but for some reason your mom’s choice seemed to have become your path?
Again, please just take whatever you would feel comfortable or relevant to share with us, as these questions could very well be off base. I would just like to understand how you look at those issues with regards to who you are and how you feel comfortable with what you have from the prosective of yourself and your family members, not just your M...
Chuck
Quote:
LL,
I realize this is a forum with R or M, so I am glad you did not take offense of my questions, as I have more to badger about your feelings and communications with all of your immediate family members, not just with your H...
<blockquote><font class="small">Quoting lostlove:</font><hr>dad had cheated on mom...mom threw him out and eventually took him back (she got tired of being alone with three kids) <hr /></blockquote>
I am sorry about that experience you had about your Dad. How do you FEEL about his decisions and actions? told him rather bluntly...dad I think you're a jerk for doing what you did, but you are my dad and I'll always love you. I still argue with him about it as he tries to give his foolish justifications...a whole bunch of bla bla bla the same stuff we have all heared from was's nothing very original. Anger, devastation, fear, or anything else? Did you talk about these FEELINGS with your mom? sure..and she expresses her feelings as well... How does she FEEL? she had had enough of my dad's crap..she does miss the "life" they had together..the functions, the people, the places, the vacations, the boat etc. but has her own life now...though it's not what she wanted she is ok with it most days. Can you and your mom openly talk about this terrible experience, or you feel that it is a taboo that you are compelled to protect her from getting in touch with this past history? nothing is taboo in my world. I think that's what intimidates some people when they first meet me.
On the same token, did you share your feelings, in a calm and non-judgmental way, with your dad? Can you talk about this at all with the idea to understand more about the circumstances involved? Can you tell me, in an objective understanding, what kind of person (not the sense of good or bad, but what kind of personality) he is, what his feelings were when he had those cheating actions, what his thought process were, his achievements in his life besides R, and how he feels now towards his decisions over the years? he has had many excuses and explenations as to why and how it happend...I don't know what to believe of him. what kind of person is/was he??? one who knows many and has many to call on when he needs something but not one to call on as he has his own agenda..one who is happy to eat a steak and a can of beans and live alone free to do as he pleases but also enjoys the company of others...he does admit that he misses a lot of things and that he would probably be better off both physically and financially had he stayed with my mom, but never hesitates to add that he never wanted a d..but also admits that he wasn't planning on giving up ow or other ow's...he doesn't even live with the ow that split the family..and yes he cheats on her too...his reply "what diff does that make..would you be happier if I lived with her etc." well sure dad it would make a hell of a lot more sense. but anyway...that's their life..does it effect me?? of course it does..but there's little I can do to change it.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quoting lostlove:</font><hr> as far as my personal goals...well I know that I can't fully envelope myself in anything for a few years (when dd starts school) but I do have some things in mind... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, LL, how do you FEEL about this choice? I know you are a dedicated mom and taking care of the kids and your home is a gratifying experience to you. But do you feel comfortable with where you are so far with regards to your plan, or you feel you are imposed with the obligations that inevitably distract you from where you want to be personally? After all, do you feel satisfied to define the life of LL by taking care of family and kids? certainly NOT. perhaps if I had a better r with h and felt more together I would be more content with giving up "my life" for the short term but where I don't feel a quality r with h or as much of a family I grow at times to resent it. 
and then feel guilty for feeling that way. What are the plans, no matter preliminary or detailed, that you have to define LL's entire life in the future that you can share with us? I just finished and passed my emt course, so I will be volunteering with the towns ambulance co. once dd starts kidnergarten or 1st grade (2-3 years out) I would like to try to get a job within the school system..anything to get in the door and get to know people, heck I'll be the lunch lady to start...I'd like to use my degree and try to get involved in the school guidance or councelors office and eventually when the kids are grown enough that I can work year round I think I'd like to be a family therapist or councelor wich may take getting a masters degree but heck I can do that.
How about your mom? Where do you see her, by your OWN standard, in terms of having a successful and balanced life between her career and the kids? she always had her own life...I feel like I got jipped, I know she tried but she was lost in her own muck. Did you share your feelings about your own life plan, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, with your mom? yup! have to...she worked to pay for half my college tuition so I like to keep her knowing that I do intend to do something with it. Did you feel you want to do more than she did after you earned your degree, but for some reason your mom’s choice seemed to have become your path? my path and my moms path are only similar in that we both married cheaters.
Again, please just take whatever you would feel comfortable or relevant to share with us, as these questions could very well be off base. I would just like to understand how you look at those issues with regards to who you are and how you feel comfortable with what you have from the prosective of yourself and your family members, not just your M...
Chuck
first off let me just say that I don't like the new set up around here!
I've been doing my own thing and trying to keep busy...h still chooses to watch sports every night and fall asleep on the couch..I choose to leave him there.
h has asked me to get a sitter for sat and we can go out again...why don't I really care???
I'm discovering that with all the muck and all the differing attitudes I receive from h...his one day taking full responsibility for things and then another blaming me for his crap...that I'm having a hard time forgiving him.
so let's see...
I am having a hard time forgiving h...(mind you it would also help to know exactly wtf I'm forgiving him for..a little more honesty on his part would be nice)
I'm having a hard time trusting h.
due to the two above..I'm questioning my love for him.
LL
LL,
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I just finished and passed my emt course, so I will be volunteering with the towns ambulance co.
Congratulations! LL.
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nothing is taboo in my world. I think that's what intimidates some people when they first meet me.
Despite that, I'd better tell you what I was thinking with this line of questioning. I just read through a book "Dance of Intimacy" by Harriet Lerner (pink cover for woman readers... I had a hard time hiding the cover on the bus, digression...) I don't think it has all the answer, but it seems to point out some areas that you have repeatedly expressed your dissatisfaction in R. The recommendation the book has is to focus on yourself, including your first family, your own value career, your own value system, and learn to express them in a calm and non-judgemental way, while sharing your own vulnerability. The feeling of emotional intimacy in your R would come after that without focusing on your R.
Again, I can understand your frustration and mistrust for the M, and I realize that many of your expression of feelings is more on venting than a sign of a complete dissatisfaction, knowing you are a person of deep reflections. I don't have a magic solution, nor is the book the answer to everything. Just an idea that I came across and that I hope can be of use to you, who are an envy for many on this BB that you got your M back. After all, we all look for something warm and fulfilling in a R in our life time, even though I realize nothing is happily ever after in life...
Chuck 
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The recommendation the book has is to focus on yourself, including your first family, your own value career, your own value system, and learn to express them in a calm and non-judgemental way, while sharing your own vulnerability. The feeling of emotional intimacy in your R would come after that without focusing on your R.
chuck,
does that mean that my focus should be on my family of origin as my first family? or my current family (h and kiddos) as my first family...my new nuclear family?
it's all so damn confusing...
when I get upset about my family of origin..h tells me to look to and focus on the family that we have...
that was doable at one time...
I have stated before that once (before dd was born but waiting) that after a phone call with mom about a holiday and my inviting dad...I stated to h clearly and exaclty "no matter how bad things get let's promise never to d"...then though I knew h and I were distant (probably not much more so than now but then again I get so lost and confused at times that I can't even tell) but I didn't know of his secret life and thoughts of leaving this family.
I don't know wich to focus on...
I wish that I could look at my current family to keep me from going down that dark tunnel of despair at the lost family...but now part of this family has been lost..and could be lost again...
LL
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I just read through a book "Dance of Intimacy" by Harriet Lerner (pink cover for woman readers... I had a hard time hiding the cover on the bus, digression...)
let me second Chuck's recommendation for "The Dance of Intimacy". It's a tremendous book. I just finished rereading "The Dance of Anger" (same author) a few weeks ago and had strongly considered recommending it to you, LL. Not sure why I didn't...Anyway, both books have a lot of terrific information in them.
Sage
anyone ever seen tim burtons "the nightmare before christmas"
when jack aka the pumkin king...goes to christmas town..he sings a song...the repeated words are "what's this" there's bla bla bla bla bla...what's this..there's bla bla bla bla bla...
that's how I feel when h starts giving...what's this..he's calling me...what's this...he's giving me a hug...what's this...he's asking me to go out...what's this..he's making plans for dinner for tommorow night? what's this...he's thinking of me...what's this????
what is this???
I hate the fact that this always seems to come about with me getting so fed up that I just give up and retreat to doing my own thing...reside to having a roomate with no interest...
I wonder how many times we can go through this cycle before that alien mind of a waw takes over me...
I wonder how to get the cycle to stop...
I wonder how to show h that if he gives a little he'll get a lot...
what's this...another thread full???
LL
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that's how I feel when h starts giving...what's this..he's calling me...what's this...he's giving me a hug...what's this...he's asking me to go out...what's this..he's making plans for dinner for tommorow night? what's this...he's thinking of me...what's this????
Is it "what's this...what a jerk he is for doing this now"? or "what is this...I don't recognize this niceness and love"? or something entirely different?
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I hate the fact that this always seems to come about with me getting so fed up that I just give up and retreat to doing my own thing...reside to having a roomate with no interest...
maybe it isn't that you get so "fed up" ll...maybe it's that when you retreat you give him room to try some things out...? make some overtures of his own?
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I wonder how many times we can go through this cycle before that alien mind of a waw takes over me...
You can stop the cycle I think...it takes two (I think) to perpetuate it.
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I wonder how to get the cycle to stop...
I wonder how to show h that if he gives a little he'll get a lot...
He IS giving a little (a lot?) ... he's asked you to do stuff a couple of times in the last few weeks..what you've been hoping for, right???
What is different about what h is actually DOING vs what you want him to do?? because it seems (in quotes) that he's doing what you're asking for....are you upping the ante????
sage
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that's how I feel when h starts giving...what's this..he's calling me...what's this...he's giving me a hug...what's this...he's asking me to go out...what's this..he's making plans for dinner for tommorow night? what's this...he's thinking of me...what's this????
Is it "what's this...what a jerk he is for doing this now"? or "what is this...I don't recognize this niceness and love"? or something entirely different? perhaps a bit of both....perhaps a bit of who is this guy and why doesn't he stay? I think you'd understand better if you saw the movie....jack finds all the excitement of christmas town over whelming...looking here there and everywhere...what's this...what's this, he likes it, wants it, wants to make it his own.
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I hate the fact that this always seems to come about with me getting so fed up that I just give up and retreat to doing my own thing...reside to having a roomate with no interest...
maybe it isn't that you get so "fed up" ll...maybe it's that when you retreat you give him room to try some things out...? make some overtures of his own? I don't think you quiet understand me sage, I am not at his feet...I am here doing what I do...he is still here just doing what he does..in fact right now he's probably asleep on the damn couch AGAIN...I've decided once again...screw him...I will not spend my life in front of a tv just to spend time with a man who is asleep..I will read or go out or do whatever I want to do and leave him there to catch flies. A week or so of that and I get..."maybe we could go to the drive in sat" I continue to do my own thing thereafter and today I get..."why don't you see if your mom can baby sit and well go out again sat night" so it does seem that I have to be an uncaring, cold typical w who just doesn't care in order for my h to take any initiative. I would like for him to want to spend time with me this all just feels like ok well she's not happy, she's pulled away...maybe I'll take her out and then I'll get myself out of the dog house for a while. to be honest I was shocked at his suggestion for a repeat this saturday.
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I wonder how many times we can go through this cycle before that alien mind of a waw takes over me...
You can stop the cycle I think...it takes two (I think) to perpetuate it. the only way to stop it is to become content with the status quo and never actually become comfortable and feel safe enough to express my love to h..only indifference. because it is when I start to inititate hugs or hello calls or anything that he pulls away.
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I wonder how to get the cycle to stop...
I wonder how to show h that if he gives a little he'll get a lot...
He IS giving a little (a lot?) he is giving just enough to get by ... he's asked you to do stuff a couple of times in the last few weeks..what you've been hoping for, right??? what I've been asking for for YEARS...phases of trying nothing, asking directly, making vauge suggestions etc...all without reading books...now when I'm pretty close to just residing myself to being a wife and mother...sitting in a room alone reading books and thinking of crafty ways to decorate while my h sits in another room and falls asleep watching whatever sporting even happens to be on occassionally talking on the phone to buddie this is when h decides to ask me to do something? but mind you he will sit on that couch and fall asleep every night but that one so I will go out with someone I don't really know.
What is different about what h is actually DOING vs what you want him to do?? because it seems (in quotes) that he's doing what you're asking for....are you upping the ante???? not uping the ante at all...having one night a week that we do something (anything) together is but one of the things I'd like to have in this r...that's enough to get us by for now...
sage
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Is it "what's this...what a jerk he is for doing this now"? or "what is this...I don't recognize this niceness and love"? or something entirely different? perhaps a bit of both....perhaps a bit of who is this guy and why doesn't he stay? I think you'd understand better if you saw the movie....jack finds all the excitement of christmas town over whelming...looking here there and everywhere...what's this...what's this, he likes it, wants it, wants to make it his own.
oh...did I misread your "tone"?
Are you looking at it with awe and wonder and wanting it to last? Or are you doubting it? I think I ASSumed the latter but it sounds like it's more the former?
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maybe it isn't that you get so "fed up" ll...maybe it's that when you retreat you give him room to try some things out...? make some overtures of his own? I don't think you quiet understand me sage, I am not at his feet...I am here doing what I do...
There's a good chance that I'm not understanding.... so bear with me if you want!
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he is still here just doing what he does..in fact right now he's probably asleep on the damn couch AGAIN...I've decided once again...screw him...I will not spend my life in front of a tv just to spend time with a man who is asleep..I will read or go out or do whatever I want to do and leave him there to catch flies. A week or so of that and I get..."maybe we could go to the drive in sat" I continue to do my own thing thereafter and today I get..."why don't you see if your mom can baby sit and well go out again sat night" so it does seem that I have to be an uncaring, cold typical w who just doesn't care in order for my h to take any initiative.
so....I guess the leap I'm having trouble with is how does "letting h do his own thing while I go off and do mine" equate to being an "uncaring, cold typical wife"??
Is it because you're pissed off while you're doing it?
Because, to me, letting h sleep on the couch or watch sports or relax in some other way while you go off and do your thing could be construed as caring, not trying to change him, accepting him for who he is, all kinds of wonderful stuff...and perhaps THAT's how he's interpreting and responding to it?
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I would like for him to want to spend time with me this all just feels like ok well she's not happy, she's pulled away...maybe I'll take her out and then I'll get myself out of the dog house for a while. to be honest I was shocked at his suggestion for a repeat this saturday.
So...you're making a lot of ASSumptions about why h is behaving in a certain way...I'm certainly doing that too...and goodness knows you'd know better...right??? would you be able to look at h's behavior with an unbiased eye?
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You can stop the cycle I think...it takes two (I think) to perpetuate it. the only way to stop it is to become content with the status quo and never actually become comfortable and feel safe enough to express my love to h..only indifference. because it is when I start to inititate hugs or hello calls or anything that he pulls away.
OK...let me try this...maybe the cycle isn't 2 actions long...maybe it's more than that...so maybe it isn't
LL initiates hugs and kisses
h pulls away
but maybe it's
LL initiates hugs and kisses
h pulls away
LL does XYZ
h stays away
What is XYZ in the above cycle? Do YOU pull away? Do YOU get peeved? Do YOU try harder to get closer? All of those things seem perfectly normal and expected but what if the next time h pulls away, you did a 180?
LL -- I know I've mentioned it before...have you read mars and venus???? It talks a lot about men pulling away...(also women ebbing and flowing, too).
I KNOW for me that when I am affectionate with h and he pulls away I do one of two extremes...either I pursue him with expectations OR I really, really distant myself. Neither works very well... 
what does seem to work for us is if I can stay sort of neutral while he's distancing.
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He IS giving a little (a lot?) he is giving just enough to get by ... he's asked you to do stuff a couple of times in the last few weeks..what you've been hoping for, right??? what I've been asking for for YEARS...phases of trying nothing, asking directly, making vauge suggestions etc...all without reading books...now when I'm pretty close to just residing myself to being a wife and mother...sitting in a room alone reading books and thinking of crafty ways to decorate while my h sits in another room and falls asleep watching whatever sporting even happens to be on occassionally talking on the phone to buddie this is when h decides to ask me to do something? but mind you he will sit on that couch and fall asleep every night but that one so I will go out with someone I don't really know.
so...am I reading this correctly? Are you irked by the "too little, too late" phenomenon?
sage
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Is it "what's this...what a jerk he is for doing this now"? or "what is this...I don't recognize this niceness and love"? or something entirely different? perhaps a bit of both....perhaps a bit of who is this guy and why doesn't he stay? I think you'd understand better if you saw the movie....jack finds all the excitement of christmas town over whelming...looking here there and everywhere...what's this...what's this, he likes it, wants it, wants to make it his own.
oh...did I misread your "tone"?
Are you looking at it with awe and wonder and wanting it to last? Or are you doubting it? I think I ASSumed the latter but it sounds like it's more the former?
the former...you'd have to see the movie to fully appreciate what I mean by "what's this"
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maybe it isn't that you get so "fed up" ll...maybe it's that when you retreat you give him room to try some things out...? make some overtures of his own? I don't think you quiet understand me sage, I am not at his feet...I am here doing what I do...
There's a good chance that I'm not understanding.... so bear with me if you want! gladly
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he is still here just doing what he does..in fact right now he's probably asleep on the damn couch AGAIN...I've decided once again...screw him...I will not spend my life in front of a tv just to spend time with a man who is asleep..I will read or go out or do whatever I want to do and leave him there to catch flies. A week or so of that and I get..."maybe we could go to the drive in sat" I continue to do my own thing thereafter and today I get..."why don't you see if your mom can baby sit and well go out again sat night" so it does seem that I have to be an uncaring, cold typical w who just doesn't care in order for my h to take any initiative.
so....I guess the leap I'm having trouble with is how does "letting h do his own thing while I go off and do mine" equate to being an "uncaring, cold typical wife"??
because I see alot of wives who make plans with their friends or go off shopping or do their own thing and have little regard for their h's, they don't consider them when they make their plans..he is after all just the guy who works and pays the bills, the guy who's underwear they fold.
Is it because you're pissed off while you're doing it? no it's because I'm sad when I'm doing it...I'd like to have a bit more of a r with h than...put kids to bed and retreat to our own corners of the room and my eventually going to bed alone unless of course I decide to wake him from the couch and bring him upstairs like another kid in the house just that he's to big to carrry.
Because, to me, letting h sleep on the couch or watch sports or relax in some other way while you go off and do your thing could be construed as caring, not trying to change him, accepting him for who he is, all kinds of wonderful stuff...and perhaps THAT's how he's interpreting and responding to it? ok so it may be an ASSumption on my part...but sure sometimes he sees it that way but I'd be willing to bet that other times he see's it as...oh crap LL's gettting bothered by my falling asleep so she's ignoring me...I better give a little ie. attempt to make plans or suggest taking the kids out to dinner.
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I would like for him to want to spend time with me this all just feels like ok well she's not happy, she's pulled away...maybe I'll take her out and then I'll get myself out of the dog house for a while. to be honest I was shocked at his suggestion for a repeat this saturday.
So...you're making a lot of ASSumptions about why h is behaving in a certain way...I'm certainly doing that too...and goodness knows you'd know better...right??? would you be able to look at h's behavior with an unbiased eye? I do my best, but there are times when well it just is what it is.
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You can stop the cycle I think...it takes two (I think) to perpetuate it. the only way to stop it is to become content with the status quo and never actually become comfortable and feel safe enough to express my love to h..only indifference. because it is when I start to inititate hugs or hello calls or anything that he pulls away.
OK...let me try this...maybe the cycle isn't 2 actions long...maybe it's more than that...so maybe it isn't
LL initiates hugs and kisses
h pulls away
but maybe it's
LL initiates hugs and kisses
h pulls away
LL does XYZ
h stays away
What is XYZ in the above cycle? LL feels rejected and doubtful Do YOU pull away? eventually Do YOU get peeved? no I get saddend by the lack of mutualness in the r Do YOU try harder to get closer? in the past I would have but as a result of everything it's hard enough to initiate anything in the first place so I typically back off easily at first not mad just well just All of those things seem perfectly normal and expected but what if the next time h pulls away, you did a 180? 180..LL doesn't even go into the family room...LL will take a shower after son and h and immediately go to lr and start reading.
LL -- I know I've mentioned it before...have you read mars and venus???? It talks a lot about men pulling away...(also women ebbing and flowing, too). i used to (long before all the crapola) catch him on tv and I listend, I bought the book as h started to come home...but I'll admit to not reading the whole thing...just kinda skimming.
I KNOW for me that when I am affectionate with h and he pulls away I do one of two extremes...either I pursue him with expectations OR I really, really distant myself. Neither works very well... what does seem to work for us is if I can stay sort of neutral while he's distancing. the neutral feeling is my distancing...but then all my expectations and desires are stuffed almost to the point where I'm not interested even if h does make an attempt. I don't like that feeling but what can I do.
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He IS giving a little (a lot?) he is giving just enough to get by ... he's asked you to do stuff a couple of times in the last few weeks..what you've been hoping for, right??? what I've been asking for for YEARS...phases of trying nothing, asking directly, making vauge suggestions etc...all without reading books...now when I'm pretty close to just residing myself to being a wife and mother...sitting in a room alone reading books and thinking of crafty ways to decorate while my h sits in another room and falls asleep watching whatever sporting even happens to be on occassionally talking on the phone to buddie this is when h decides to ask me to do something? but mind you he will sit on that couch and fall asleep every night but that one so I will go out with someone I don't really know.
so...am I reading this correctly? Are you irked by the "too little, too late" phenomenon? not so much the too little too late....more the too little and not often enough. it seems that our little phases of spending time and h's actually asking me to go somewhere are usually come around after I've decided somewhere in my mind that I'll put up with all this until the kids are grown and then I'm out of here.
sage
finding myself on page three...
finding my time here on this bb coming to an end..I've watched too many people come and go to stick around for much longer.
finding that the more I listen to people the less I like people...
people are selfish and dishonest..
it seems to me that even the "good ones" have something to hide...(this is not in reference to h, but in reference to most of the people that are honest with me)
why?
who knows..
I used to trust my h...
part of me naively still does trust him...
part of me feels really stupid for trusting him in what he claims about his r with ow never reaching a physical point..
part of me knows that my h and I will be just fine...
part of me will always wonder if I'm believing a lie..
part of me will miss the bb...
part of me needs to hang on to it...
part of me knows that it is keeping me back and I must move on.
h and I are going to mass tonight at a small old stone church in our town...we haven't gone to mass together since son was just a little one in the car seat carrier...it will be nice to go with him...but it may also be difficult..I know that he hasn't been to mass himself in a long time (I had started going every sunday during our sep while he watched the kids but stopped when he came home as he became busy in the yard or watching football and me taking two little ones to mass myself would leave me to get nothing out of it) knowing him he will not go up for communion...I think we both need to go to confession (I was always surprised when he would go voluntarily when it was offered after a wedding or other event that brought us to church)
I'm looking forward to the weekend (next) away with him...but I am saddend to say that I don't want to celebrate our anniversary (the reason we are going away) this year..I don't feel married...those vows were broken..not so much the ow but the leaving and asking for d etc. I don't want to buy a card...I will however buy him a new chain for the cross I gave him on our wedding day.
LL,
I wish I could you a great big hug right now. I'm not good at giving advice, but have been following your sitch. Two of my very best friends are in the same situation you are, the H's never left them or have had OW, but they spend very little time together doing things. My friend C and her H pretty much go there separate ways, do their own thing, haven't ML in almost 11 years. My other friend C2 and her H never do anything together either, he does his thing, she does hers. They have a pet and the pet is more important to H then his wife. She's really at the stage where she could become a WAW and there are days I want to call her H and say wake up! She's going to walk on you....I can see it coming. She's told him many times that she's unhappy but he's ignoring all the signs.
My friend P and her H were split but are back together, nothing has changed with them, her H is drinking a lot, being an ass, I think he's in MLC with the way she describes his actions and the way he's treating here. She might walk againg. It's a sad, sad world out there and I guess you just have to live your life the best you can, be happy, and not too needy, and with an attitude of I can make it on my own. Just give up and decide you're going to be happy no matter whay, do your thing, do things that you really enjoy and then see what happens. I bet you could draw your H back to you.
It's his problem right now, he needs to deal with it. I think you worry to much about him and what he's doing, thinking, let him fall asleep on the couch, heck why don't you disconnect the cable service and not tell him. No TV, or would he got to one of his buddies. Instead of him watching sports on TV, why don't you suggest going to a sportsbar and watching the game there, it's a different environment. I don't know if he drinks, but a few beers always gets my H talking. If he lost you he'd lose the best thing that ever happened to him, believe it!
Oh well, I don't know if I've been any help, but I hope I didn't say anything to offend you either. Whatever you diecide I would miss if you left this BB, I really have gotten a lot of insight into things from you and others here and don't where I'd be without this BB.
Have a great day! Cathy
I have wanted for a long time to slap ow in the face or at least to call her and say.."so do you feel like a chump now?" but never did because of the way I was led to believe things were ended with them...h still "in love" with her but needing to go back to his family...
wanted to shove her letters (the ones I found that h supposedly put in a dumpster afterward) in her face and ridicule her for writing such childish things...
well now I know I don't have to do any of that...
I asked h if she was "bitchy" when he decided to come home...yup! she was
h in telling me that she's just a customer..someone he takes money from..he's not thrilled with the constant reminder of his mistake in keeping her a customer and the pathetic way he must now deal with that house (leaving a message when he needs to be there so that she can leave and never going there alone) he told me..you can look at my cell bill, etc even the stuff that you found it's all gone...
get this one..I wish I could have seen the look on her face or her h's face...
h put all her letters and pics and the foolish heart charm that she gave him in a bag with no note no words..in her mailbox.
hee hee hee....
awww poor baby!!
oh well...
LL's gonna be ok...our r still needs some work...
I'm trying to believe h when he tells me their r just never got to the physical point...and perhaps with time I will believe him...or perhaps I will learn that I'm right not to believe him..either way..
h came home because he loves his wife and kids!
even if I were to leave h, decide I've had enough...h doesn't want to be with anyone else.
LL
Sounds like you had a conversation that was a long-time coming. You've got some of the answers you needed and now you can have a very different perspective when he goes to her house (sounds like he's ready to change that anyway).
It must be very satisfying to you to hear these things. Does he know how much that helps, so he can keep doing it?
Who is this?
Who are you?
Boy can things turn around fast, can't they? Good for you! I'm glad you're feeling better.
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LL's gonna be ok...our r still needs some work...
You're doing fine, girlfriend!!!!
Cathy
Awesome, LL!
He FINALLY opened up...I LOVE where that detritus from their silly R ended up!!! She MUST have felt like SUCH a fool to have that stuff dumped off to her that way...what if her H DID find it all first???
I don't think you need to slap her in the face anymore, LL, your H did it FOR you!!!
Shiny
LL,
I am very happy for you!
I think one of the reasons I kept coming back by your threads was the solid introspective analysis you kept pouring out here. The things you wrote challenged us. They made us think. Sometimes the thoughts were - is this lady nuts?? But more often the thoughts were about ourselves and how we each have to walk this path and be satisfied that we have done all that we could to save something that was once precious to us. It made us question our committment at times - or if we should be committed.
LL, you are a bright, funny, insightful, call-it-like-you-see-it Lady.If you leave the board to get on with the rest of your life, you will be missed. But then maybe that will be better for you and your family too. This BB can become VERY addictive, and that isn't good for any of us when we reach that point. At some point I too will reach this crossroads of stepping away and not coming back to this site. I only hope that I can do it with as much class and love and intelligence as you have.
{{{{{LostLove}}}}}
Greg - Patient, vigilant, hopeful
LL,
I can understand your frustrations. You know what you feel inside and it doesn't feel very good to be the one who is always putting out the affection. I can relate. For me what works best with my H is not playing games but being direct and asking for how I want things to be and trying to guide him. In some cases people don't even realize that they need the affection...
P>S>
Hi Greg nice to see you are doing well still.)Lynn)
Hey LL,
Sorry we missed you Friday night.
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LL's gonna be ok...our r still needs some work...
I'm trying to believe h when he tells me their r just never got to the physical point...and perhaps with time I will believe him...or perhaps I will learn that I'm right not to believe him..either way..
I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He came back to you....so does it matter? Keep plugging....lots of folks here would love to have the chance to make their R work.
Take care!
Jim
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I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He came back to you....so does it matter? Keep plugging....lots of folks here would love to have the chance to make their R work.
My thoughts exactly!!
Cathy
HI LL,
I'm just catching up on the board after Isabel took me away from it for over a week but I loved hearing the changes to your R with Hs delivering OWs trash to her mailbox!!! That was great!!!
It reminded me of last Valentines Day. H and I were in reconciliation #1..(which of course failed miserably), I asked him to drive over the bridge near our house and as we approached it, I asked for his wedding ring (which he wore apparently throughout both brief As)...he hesitated but pulled it off and handed it to me, he had a bewildered look on his face. As we approached the center of the bridge, I opened my window and tossed the ring into the river. "Why did you do that?!!! he yelled. I calmly replied, "That ring was given to you as my covenant of faithfulness, you have broken that covenant and even further defiled that ring by putting it on the bodies of whores." He shut up immediately and has never brought the incident up since. I know it hurt his to see that ring go flying towards the river but to me it was an act of cleansing (that river was MY mailbox).
T2