Dear everyone,
This Thanksgiving season for me is one to be really thankful for. We are officially piecing!
I have posted in MLC that we went to Retrouvaille, the first week of November. It was the start of a trickle of hope for my H. I have posted all about our experience in my MLC thread.
We have attended two post sessions now, and last Saturday, the topic was on love and committment.
I got the courage to ask H if he is firm in his commitment to restore our marriage, and he said yes, that is why he is attending with me. He also told me that he has decided to go for loving me. He made sure that I understood that love this time is not "romantic" love that I was looking for in our past years, and I told him that I know and want perfectly the real, deep, mature love that means we will be kind to each other, care for each other....
In a moment of reflection, I thought back to all that we have been through, and realize that had I not listened and learned from what people here on the boards have been posting to both to me and to others, our M, and our life, might have had a very different outcome.
This is just a new start, and I have to make sure that the changes I have made are for real, and that I will keep improving everyday, to be the best person I can be.
((((( )))))
Hey 25, yes! I finally get your stamp of approval! That makes my heart swell! I know how hard you worked to explain forgiveness, and detachment, and how to lose the anger. I have repeated your words (the one about lighting yourself on fire) to other people, both in the boards and out of it. And I also now know how frustrating it is to teach those concepts - so I really appreciate your patience!!!!
Also special mention to Cyrena, Grace_O, Lorie, V, Alb...
Its going to be a long journey, I know. Picking up the pieces is not easy. I know that probably, at this point, I am just doing the "whew, finally" feeling of relief kinda thing. But I kow, H is still in the tunnel,still has quite some way to go. I will have some examples for you later. My mind is occupied with a work dealine right now so I can't seem to focus on deeper stuff.
Although he has been doing such a good job, I am not pattng myself in the back or allowing myself to backlide or be complacent.
Just letting you know.....
Hi Angel,
I'm so happy for you! I'm also glad to see that you're proceeding with a good attitude, of recognizing that you both still have a way to go and will require time, space, prayer, compassion, and an ongoing commitment to making positive changes.
Be aware that the darkest time comes at the dawn, or however that sentiment is worded--it's often much harder to deal with the lingering depression as the MLCer drags towards the end of the tunnel than it was when the bombs were being dropped, and this is where your changes will really be tested.
You really are doing great!
Thank you, Cyrena.
Right now I feel like my defenses are still up, I actually have difficulty dropping it so that I can connect with him. I suddenly realized just how much I have changed.
I also suddenly feel like I don't know how to interact with him any longer.
Thank you, Cyrena.
Right now I feel like my defenses are still up, I actually have difficulty dropping it so that I can connect with him.
Do Not sabotage this w/your doubt or your isolation. Open your heart to him. (Remember that You are married.)
Can he hurt you again? YES...and the reverse is true too.
We all risk it every time we let our guard down.
But keeping our guard up - keeps others from reaching us - and then we never connect.
Never connecting means we never feel truly intimate, truly loved, truly known...
That's a guaranteed lose lose. Why choose that?
It's NOT safer...it only appears that way.
I suddenly realized just how much I have changed.
I also suddenly feel like I don't know how to interact with him any longer.
Be Here Now...no futurizing, no history reviews. Stay in the present. LIVE.
This is going to be long, so bear with me. Had a big bump in my piecing story. Let me know what you think – lessons learned, 2x4’s, things I did right and wrong, what you guys think about where we are headed…. Everything welcome…..
Yesterday H told me that when OW goes back to her home country (apparently she is still here till next week) she will continue working part time with H’s company, handling some aspects of the research being done by H in her homeland.
I went crazy. I told H that I could not accept such a set up, that it was going to cause failure of our reconciliation. That I will be hurting every time they had to speak. That I felt that it might make him feel for her again. I did not want him to ever have contact with OW again. I said he should do everything not to re-hire her. He said she was the most qualified person to do the job, and that it was not his decision alone.
H got mad at me. He said I should not have brought up the topic of OW in the first place because we were doing so well with our reconciliation efforts. He felt that I was being demanding and controlling all over again, and he said that he no longer felt anything for OW and knew that what he felt was wrong. He also said that he had defriended OW from FB, and never texts her anymore or writes. But he did admit to the occasional phone call, but that was more to make it easy on himself. He said that I should believe him when he says that he wants our marriage to work and that he would not do anything, and even if he were in contact with OW it no longer meant anything to him. He also said that he and OW never had anything remotely physical, not even in the past.
What hurt me though was that he said that if I view things that way, it would be the cause of our M’s failure, and that we should rethink our commitment to the M. I told him that I did not feel I was being demanding, just that I wanted to protect our M. He pointed out he wanted to do the same, and that I should try to see all our improvements - we are talking, he has committed to working on our M, he has realized and accepted that we do love each other, and that we did love each other in the past, and we are even sexually intimate now, after 5 months on no ML. I told him I do realize and see all of those and that I am very thankful,
We both decided at that point not to talk further, as we were just making things worse. He assured me that he would never leave us for OW, or for anybody else. We then left the house to pick up D in a friends house, and while we were there, I could see that H was doing his best to act sweet to me, sending me loving looks, talking nicely to me, sitting beside me.
I tried to be responsive at that point but was too shocked and was into the downward spiral of depression. I have to admit, I sabotaged his efforts by even implying during our conversation that he went to OW’s country in the past not because the company sent him but because he wanted to be with OW, of which he really got mad at me and told me that of course not, that was all the decision of his boss.
Anyway, by the time we went home we alternately having normal conversation and loaded ones, mostly with me being in the attack mode.
He finally said at 9:30 PM that he was emotionally exhausted and wanted to sleep. On the other hand, I was so overwrought that I could to sleep and even had nightmares when I did. I even dreamt of being suffocated and woke him up by struggling against him and hitting him with my elbows.
I lay in the dark afterwards, finally calm enough to pray. I needed to think clearly and rationally, to process what I just learned. Suddenly I felt that things were clear… and I woke him up (OMG) but I felt it couldn’t wait. Things he had been telling me suddenly became clear to me.
I told him that now I realized what our barriers where for committing fully to our M. His was thinking that we had no love in our M in the past. He struggled with thinking that he has made a mistake, married his best friend. But last week, at our post session, he had a breakthrough. He realized that we did have love in our M, and that we could bring back that love by deciding to commit and love. H, now fully awake, told me “you finally get it! And that is why I am no longer worried about OW! I thought that the emotion I felt for her was love, but realized it was not! It is just the stereotype brought about by movies and books! True love is what we have!”
For me, I explained that my barrier to commitment was OW. That I still felt hurt and was afraid to be hurt more, that is why I my reaction was so deep to the news. I asked that he understand me, and accept my feelings as such.
We discussed how OW’s are actually a symptom of what is missing in a relationship, and he told me that now, he is confident that we understand what is missing in our relationship and that I should strive not to think about OW.
Somehow, after our conversation, I felt so reassured and open. I don’t know if that is the right thing to be, but almost all of my fears were allayed. I hope to God that my intuition on this is right and that I won’t be disappointed again.
To end the night, H suddenly turned to me with a twinkle in his eye, and said “now thats all resolved, and here we are, wide awake at 3AM, why not ML? and I laughed too and told him – ready when you are!”
LOL, rest of the night was fun and games…..
Hi Angel,
I think things are moving in a good direction for you and H--the making love, the discussions about how to improve your M, and your understanding of his feelings are such important steps.
That said, I believe he's still fooling himself. The phone calls indicate that he's not ready to cut off contact with the OW. He's also not ready to admit how much he has hurt you, or that he was going to her country for more reasons than being sent by his boss.
In his way, he's still cake-eating, and still needs to go through the process of ending their relationship, then grieving that, acknowledging how he's hurt you, then forgiving himself for that, and clearly examining what his R with the OW was about, then making the necessary changes in himself to prevent another EA. My own H did eventually do all these things, but the process seemed even slower than it was!
The important thing is that you're both progressing, your communication has improved dramatically, you have shown your willingness to understand each other, you are redefining what your love will look like in the future--I see so many positives. Keep up the good work!
Angel,
I'm going to offer a few thoughts. First,I disagree with Cyrena to an extent. I don't see him talk to OW as cake eating. In an ideal world, he would cut off contact, but we don't live in an ideal world. I think Angel's H has started to do what you suggested.
I do see him trying to minimize their contact. I do see him letting go, at least from a guy's perspective.
Angel, as a suggestion, is there anyway they could communicate though an intermediary?
I think your do your recon serious harm with stuff like this. Believe me, I know. part of the piecing effort is to show him you've changes. Your episode was probably more like the old Angel.
I also think that at some point, in your mind, you need to make a deal with yourself to STOP bringing up the OM or not having a reaction when he does. I'm sure he doesn't want this being held over his head for the rest of his live and it's not part of true forgiveness to do so.
I also wonder if you fully understand why it happened from your H's perspective.
You said it very well. The OW is a barrier to your commitment (Not his) Translation, you are asking him for help with working on your issue. Go work on it...by yourself.
Obviously, you know that bringing up the past didn't help. Like 25 says "from this day forward.'
You cannot change the past or what happened. You can change your future.
Dear Cyrena and Harrier,
This back and forth is good. I like it that I have POV's from both the male and female sides. My thought processes agrees more with Cyrena's, but I also did think about me being the old Angel with the reaction I had, that is why you will note that the way I wrote the story, I was self-depreciating, with me saying that I was in attack mode.
The more I look at it, the more I realize that both H and I are developing our patience and our willingness to understand each other and not act (or react) impulsively. We both initially did, but we both backed off, and the result was good.
As they say, the strength of a relationship lies not in not having conflict, but in dealing with it. We must be learning!
I agree with Harrier.
I work with mostly men and It would be very very difficult for me to have ZERO contact with someone I'd already worked with on a research project.
It would look very weird for me to ask for an intermidiary AND besides, OW never reciprocated his feelings so he'd look extra stalker-ish.
He opened up to YOU about what was having to happen with her at work and how limited it would be. He hid nothing.
You over reacted big time and then, thank God, you let the divine in.
Keep that up.
Two and two now.....
Oh well, let me clarify a little....
H's traveling in the past - I think he is powerful enough in the company to lessen the amount of travel he was doing.... had he given them enough justification. But he didn't. Put two and two together. But thats past now and I understand that was the time he was falling for OW really hard.
Present situation - if H really desired so, he also is powerful enought to say that OW is no longer needed. Truth to tell, I think they could survive without her, but she would be the most logical choice as of now because she performed well during the time she was working for them (before she went to the US for her post doc leave).
Caveat: The research project won't last forever, give or take another year or two and they will be done with OW's country, and they will be starting studies in Europe and the US. Hopefully then OW's role will be done by then.
Intermediaries won't work, I agree with 25.
And oh, by the way, even if OW says now that she is not interested because H is married (notice the qualifier, if he were not married then what?), initially she did reciprocate in a sense by acknowledging that there was something special between them (soulmate or something similar, as H described to me long ago). I doubt she ever said ILY to him though. They cut it off after Thanksgiving last year, then when their contact resumed it was more friendly in character, from what H explains, and that gradually, the emotional flavour went away. from my snooping, I know that as late as August, there were still some emotions mentioned on my H's part (he sent an email to her saying that he was overwhelmed by memories when he went to OW's home country sometime end of July) but OW replied simply, can't remember what.
As of now, two forces are at work within my H:
One is the waning force of OW attraction, and his dependence on her to give him the "high", even if its just friendhip.
The other force is that of him wanting to work on our M, his commitment, his realization that we do have love and can learn to love more, and that he wants to keep his family intact and do the right thing.
His actions show that regarding the first force, he is letting go, albeit slowly and in a manner that is easiest to him (cake eating maybe, I don't mind as long as it works and as he says, it keeps him sane).
I have to hang my hat on the premise that as a good person with the right upbringing, morals and values, he will let the second force ultimately take over.
I agree that cake eating isn't quite the right term, but couldn't think of one to cover that period of time when the person who has had the EA is still minimizing their level of emotional involvement, the amount of choice they had in making contact, and the effect on their spouse. They seem to hope that they can have 2 things at once: a great marriage AND good feelings/friendship/memories with the OW.
My H also insisted that it would be unavoidable and necessary to keep in contact with his OW for work projects; however, once the emotions which drove him through this period changed, he made arrangements so that they would never have to work together, or be at conferences together, again. Then, he had no desire to see her again, and stopped envisioning her as a completely innocent party in their EA.
Angel, I think that, the better your R becomes, the more your H will lose his need for the OW. But you need to let him come to that place--pushing him faster than he's ready to go will just backfire on you because it is controlling. So keep giving him the space to work on himself, and try to work on your sense of trust that your H (and God) will deliver, without needing you to push as well.
My dear Cyrena,
I am so amazed at how we think alike, and how our H's react in the same way. Cake-eating was exactly the words that popped in my mind when I was re-analyzing what happened yesterday. You are so right with the minimizing actions that H is doing. H does think that OW is free of fault, and even once said she is part of the solution because she rejected him and made him thnk what a fool he was to be a middle aged, married man trying to run after a single, young woman. And although he knows how much his actions hurt our family, he is avoiding facing it by saying that the past is past.
.
Angel, I think that, the better your R becomes, the more your H will lose his need for the OW. But you need to let him come to that place--pushing him faster than he's ready to go will just backfire on you because it is controlling. So keep giving him the space to work on himself, and try to work on your sense of trust that your H (and God) will deliver, without needing you to push as well.
I think the best way to approach all this is exactly how you worded it above.
I will keep on praying and curb my controlling instincts. I hope that when the time comes that H will travel to OW's country for the first time I will be able to keep from pushing, that I can maintain my calmness. It gets harder as we go along with the reconciliation, because I can't help but develop some expectations....hey, that's it, thats what made me pushy! But I will keep posting and with everyone's help, and with God, I know that someday we will get there.
Two and two now.....
Oh well, let me clarify a little....
H's traveling in the past - I think he is powerful enough in the company to lessen the amount of travel he was doing.... had he given them enough justification. But he didn't. Put two and two together. But thats past now and I understand that was the time he was falling for OW really hard.
Present situation - if H really desired so, he also is powerful enought to say that OW is no longer needed.
so b/c of Your fears about your h's possible behavior, she should lose her job? Am I really the only person who thinks that's unfair?
Truth to tell, I think they could survive without her, but she would be the most logical choice as of now because she performed well during the time she was working for them (before she went to the US for her post doc leave).
Caveat: The research project won't last forever, give or take another year or two and they will be done with OW's country, and they will be starting studies in Europe and the US. Hopefully then OW's role will be done by then.
then there's an end in sight anyhow.
Intermediaries won't work, I agree with 25.
And oh, by the way, even if OW says now that she is not interested because H is married (notice the qualifier, if he were not married then what?),
3 men overtly sought me when I was in the military. I said I was married. I guess I COULD have said "and even if I were not married I would not be interested" -- but I left it at "I'm married."
I would NOT read into what she said and assume she implied anything. She didn't need to.
He was not available so she didn't consider him as an option. I see that as totally reasonable. It's the normal thing to say. She MAY have had feelings for him OR she may have tried to let him down gently...
I mean, she needs the job, right?
initially she did reciprocate in a sense by acknowledging that there was something special between them (soulmate or something similar, as H described to me long ago). I doubt she ever said ILY to him though.
They cut it off after Thanksgiving last year, then when their contact resumed it was more friendly in character, from what H explains, and that gradually, the emotional flavour went away.
I follow this...fyi...given the givens, I'm still not alarmed.
from my snooping, I know that as late as August, there were still some emotions mentioned on my H's part (he sent an email to her saying that he was overwhelmed by memories when he went to OW's home country sometime end of July) but OW replied simply, can't remember what.
As of now, two forces are at work within my H:
One is the waning force of OW attraction, and his dependence on her to give him the "high", even if its just friendhip.
If it's just friendship, like it now sounds, there won't be much of a "high". You give it too much power.
The time I had what MIGHT be described as an EA (20 some years ago while h was an intern, grouchy and never around and we were both military and the Gulf War had begun--pretty stressful, )
I recall having a crush on OM who worked with me. He paid A LOT of attention to me at the exact time h was too busy and tired. I was lonely and vulnerable and OM looked like Kevin Costner.
I almost thought I was "in love"...took me about a year or TWO, to get through all that and then I stared at myself and wondered what the heck I was thinking...I then realized I had been sort of crazy to think I felt "love" for OM. I barely knew him!
Thank God I worked through it all without ruining things in the m. IN some ways I learned so much, including not to be so judgemental...things are not always black and white.
If h had found out and tried to shame me, I would have left him. Not "For OM" but b/c I would justify my "almost" affair. I'd blame h. And if he tried to corner me I'd be so angry b/c I DID feel lonely in my m then. and I did blame h, b/c he chose medical school AFTER we married and changed our lives forever.
I did not choose that. He did. He put me in a position to be alone at night MANY nights, for YEARS...raising our kids and taking care of the home and finances AND working full time at my own job which always always took second to his.
So yeah, I'd be mad as heck if he tossed that in my face when I myself had worked it out as your h has.
Your h feels foolish as it is, why must you keep at this? It's like you want him to justify it and trust me, if you force him to, YOU won't end up in a better position. Let this go.
The other force is that of him wanting to work on our M, his commitment, his realization that we do have love and can learn to love more, and that he wants to keep his family intact and do the right thing.
THIS IS WHAT YOU PRAYED FOR...RIGHT?
His actions show that regarding the first force, he is letting go, albeit slowly and in a manner that is easiest to him (cake eating maybe, I don't mind as long as it works and as he says, it keeps him sane).
This is NOT cake eating...Angel, seriously...let this go.
I have to hang my hat on the premise that as a good person with the right upbringing, morals and values, he will let the second force ultimately take over.
I agree w/this^^^-
but I can see how your fears and anger could push him away...don't blow this.
You must LET THIS GO...now.
Thats all I can tell you.
Angel,
I have no wise words of advise for you. I just wanted to let you know that when I read your post here that I cried. The things that you are going through are just like what I am doing and feeling. Just always remember that when you fall of the track pick yourself up and dust off the emotional baggage that we carry and look forward to today and your future. You have to be a strong and caring person to get where you are in your relationship at this time. I do believe that forgiveness will help. That is where I am at I truly need to forgive my husband not just say it.
My thoughts are with you. It will not be an easy road but one that will be worthwhile.
Thank you for all the advise and encouragement.
I did see the bad effect of what I did yesterday. Harrier, you are right when you said that what I did was damaging. When H arrived back from his trip, he seemed distant and withdrawn. I already had a feeling (judging from the different reactions I saw here) that he was now seeing how I regressed. In my panic, I asked him what was wrong, and boom! That created instant problems! His response was
"Nothing. Can't I have bad moments?" and instead of cutting it off at that point, I retorted:
"I was just asking. Why bite my head off?" to which he said (this was bad)
"well, I know what you are thinking.... I am in a bad mood because I talked to her while I was away..."
I started saying "I was not thinking that way..."I bit off my answer at that point, and tears sprang to my eyes, and just rushed to the bathroom (we just got to the gym at that point).
The rest of the evening was again on and off good and bad interaction. This time it was he who was in attack mode.
I guess I deserve it.
Anyways, by bedtime we were in full fighting mode, with me being petty and banging stuff around to attract attention, acting out like a kid, and him attacking everything I said. I finally told him that I was just being immature and needing attention, and that I was not mad, and that I had no intention of bringing up OW in conversation as we already had ironed that out two nights ago.
We decided we really needed to go to this coming weekends retrouvaille post, which is on conflict management. Even if its eating up our Christmas shopping time. We have been so busy with Retrou that till now, we have a Christmas tree with only half the lights on and no ornaments!
We finally went to bed, and I tossed and turned the whole night, berating myself for my actions, and telling myself that I should really make a big effort to just let go, stop reacting, go back to find my center which I had before all this.
I was laughing when he woke up, cause I was thinking of rules for fighting, and wondering how to implement them when we are in full fighting mode. I shared this with him, he said I overthought everything, so I should just shut up and give him a back massage.
Pray for me, friends, that I find my happy place again. This is tiring.
oops, edit
he said I was thinking that he was in a bad mood because he probably talked to her while he was away. I did not try to confirm anything. I just put in my mind that from now on, I wont care of they talk or not.
By the way 25, I really enjoyed your post to me.
Regarding OW and the job .... no, she does not need it. Its an interesting side job for her - she is freakin' rich, just to let you know, and could survive without working for the rest of her life. She is a doctor too, and just finished her post-doc, so she does have a few years where she won't be so busy. Also, re-hiring her means firing the guy who has filled in for her position while she was away, and this guy needs the money as he just got married!
I like how you dissected your EA.... and I also have something to share. At work, there is also this guy (married too, much younger than me) who likes me, and he does show his appreciation and attraction. He would sometimes come over just to tell me I look great. Honestly, it flatters me, and I do chat with him, just enough to keep his attention. I do tell him though that I am commited to my marriage so he doesn't get any ideas. But his admiration is something that does strokes my ego. Maybe that is what my H is to OW.
I am letting go. I just need to control myself. Can't blow this -so near, so precious, so much work done.
I saw MZ had a little list of things to do while in piecing. Let me make mine too.... and note, this will be subject to change as needed!
1. Say Good morning and good night everyday
2. Give him a 3 second hug every evening
3. Do not ask "what's wrong", allow him his down moments, let him have his space
4. No why questions (for now)
5. No snooping
6. Do not mention OW - she is a non-entity. This is funny, let me share this. In H's phone, OW is listed as "nobody".
7. No defending, demanding or judging allowed.
8. Pray, pray and pray
[/quote]Be Here Now...no futurizing, no history reviews. Stay in the present. LIVE. [/quote]
This is so true and so hard.
This is funny, let me share this. In H's phone, OW is listed as "nobody".
Well there you have it! The Freudian "slip" of all obvious slips. This is NO accidental cutsey name.
Let this whole thing with her
burn itself out. YOU stay out of it, OK? I heard and agree that it takes about 2 months after no contact with ow to start him losing interest in her.
Remember, you are the incumbent. If he hasn't left in the first 3 months, chances are he won't.
MZ ... tsk tsk...The incumbent....can we make a movie of that? Yeah, makes me think of politicians who hang in there in spite of all the mud slinging,etc. When you are powereful you get enemies , eh?
Yes, she is a NOBODY and not worth my time and aggravation (self fulfilling prophecy.
Update: So on Friday I zipped my lips. H was still quiet and withdrawn, I left the house to go Christmas shopping and cried in the car to let my feelings out. Same routine as before.
Saturday we went to our Retrouvaille post session, this time on conflict.
At sharing time on how we were doing, H said that though we did not do most of our hoework, he felt that we were getting better and able now to share more, not just pleasantries but deeper convo. I felt that was a good, objective assessment.
It was a good presentation and all but what we mostly found out was that we have a come a long way with our conflict management as compared to before!
Anyways, at the end of the day, H told me that his real take home for the day was something one fo the presenters said: That our old M is dead! and that we are now at the start of our new M.
And he also said that more and more, he is realizing that happiness is something that is attainable, that is not dependent on other people.
I think he is slowly coming along....
Hi Angel,
Your H has made some good realizations. For yourself, while your H is coming to understand that happiness isn't dependent on others, keep working on the corollary, that we needn't be affected by the unhappiness, anger, withdrawal, etc, of others. It's such a relief when you reach this point, and can watch your H express any negative emotion without getting sucked in, as women tend to do.
In terms of your "new" M, you'll want it to be one in which either of you can express your concerns without feeling the other will judge/dismiss/criticize/etc them. There's no time like the present to work on those skills!
I'm glad you went to the Post session. that checking in once a week with people who are able to guide you is so important. The insecurity is normal. You're trying to get over this very quickly, and it takes time. It takes a lot of time. Are you doing the extra nice things that Retrouvaille suggests? There's a list of suggestions in the book. For example, I started giving him a welcome kiss each night when he came in the door. It didn't feel natural, but I made the effort, and it made a difference. And he made the effort to kiss me goodbye each morning when he left, even though I was asleep. And that meant a lot to me, too. It's funny how those little niceties are meaningful, and they get dropped so easily!
Cyrena, thank you for the wise words. My downfall in this period is expecting that with his realizations will come the actions of reparation. I have to remember that there is a lag time between realization and implementation - the very same things happened to me when I was struggling for detachment, for forgiveness, for loving unconditionally. I will concentrate on not being affected by his mood swings.
Lotus, I keep reminding myself that I have been so patient and that I should be more so now that we have made so much progress and not expect that he turn on a dime. I do try to do those but I think H is not there yet. I just chose saying "goodnight" and a 3 second hug in the evening, he does respond to my goodnight but does not initiate it. I will not pressure and let him be, but will work on my own side. Neither does he want to dialogue but he did say that we will, one of these days. And our dialogue during the posts keep us going through the week, gives us something to go back to. He easily gets overloaded, I think its because he still is partially in the tunnel, and when things get to intense he withdraws.
I want him to feel safe enough to stay outside longer and longer....
And some other news.... I know OW matters less and less, but of course no matter what H says I am sure he still is affected. She left yesterday.
And some other news.... I know OW matters less and less, but of course no matter what H says I am sure he still is affected. She left yesterday.
Angel I know exactly what you mean about H still being affected. My H and I had a convo the other day about OW, and I had told him that since he'd just "ended" it with OW only 2 1/2 weeks prior, that he still had to have feelings for her. He said that of course he did, but little by little they are fading...doesn't make it any easier to deal with.
On the other hand, I'm so glad that you and your H are working towards healing. I know what you're going through believe me, and I hope that the downs get less and less and the ups become overwhelming (in a good way) for you.
My thoughts and prayers are with you both!! BIG HUGS!!
FB
Hi Angel, thanks for suggesting I read here. I have no words of wisdom since I'm going through this myself, but I find in your posts, many similarities in the emotions I deal with. Even 25's post about letting go spoke to me and what's going on right now.
Thank you!
CT, I do think you belong here as you are already in that process. The reason why it is so helpful to be part of this community is that we all have commonalities in our sitch, we have similar feelings, and it helps us when we know that a. we are not alone b. others have trodden this path, and we will be able to see what works and what does not from their stories.
I posted in May's thread that I almost feel like we are all holding each others' hand (virtually) in here, leading each other or at least just being there.
OK, now on to my story for the day:
Right now I am here in the city where OW did her post-doc fellowship. I visited the hospital where she went for the course. I know the people there because thats the same place where H and I did our post docs, and had arranged to meet with a couple of my closest friends. My H did the same program as OW just finished; he actually recommended her to this position.
As luck would have it, I ran into OW's and H's ex-boss and mentor, the section head. After exchanging pleasantries, he asked me to say hi to H, then suddenly brought up OW, saying she was leaving that very day (coincidence?). I just smiled and said some more polite replies, saying something like "Oh yeah! I hope she enjoyed her stay here! How is she?" and he replied "she was OK. I think she learned more about flying than the medical stuff she was here for...."
I got the feeling the he was not impressed! And yet H seems to be still so impressed with her, saying that she's the best qualified person to do the job in his research.....
The other doctor OW works for in her home country also says he same thing.... that the interim doctor H hired is better than OW.
Obviously, one can see here that in spite of H's committmnet to me, he is still in denial when in comes to OW. So definitely he is not out of the tunnel.
The process really does take time. I can see H is still struggling, but I know that one of these days, he will realize all this. He has gone this far, and everyday, he learns something new. I always just have to remind yourself that I have to be patient. I have to learn to manage my expectations, and not to overwhelm him at this point with all the questions I have. maybe I even just have to bury those questions and take our M as it comes, trusting that as he gets more and more comfortable, all of those hidden feelings and thoughts will come out.
The difference between before and now is that with the assurance of his commitment, I am more able to step back and not be affected by his negative modds. I just tell myself that he is working on those feelings. In the meantime I am working on mine, because I do have to get back those loving "feelings", which I have put in a box on a shelf for the meantime during the height of the pain in our situation. Even if I have made the decision to love, it still has not really kicked in yet. And I imagine all the more so with H as he still has to let go fully of OW.
Its a process, my friends.
Hi Angel,
Ah, infatuation--my H also initially saw his OW in much more glowing terms than all his colleagues, and as being insanely intelligent. You have to feel sorry for these women, though, who are so insecure in their abilities that they have to charm a male "friend" to manoeuvre them into a job.
Yes, it does take time for this infatuation to subside. Long after my H was out of the tunnel, committed to our M, generally free from the depression and acting like an improved version of his "old" self, he clung to the idea of her as having been perfect, blameless, etc. It was only after 6-12 months that the occasional "down" periods when he clung to her memory ended, and he was able to let go of her completely by forgiving himself. So hang in there--it takes time for them to give up their crutches and other aids even when they're working on the M.
It is very hard to bring back those feelings you put on the shelf--that takes an equally long time. But it's important not to let yourself become someone who has been diminished by the EA: someone who is less loving, less trusting, etc. You want to have emerged from the crisis a stronger, more loving, more trusting, more compassionate person. It is a process ... and it is worth it.
6-12 months.... dang!
I know about the crutches .... H himself seems to be self aware and he said that for the sake of his sanity, he is taking it easy, doing it his way, gently. I think people all have built in crutches, and the more unstable they are, the more "walking aids' they have for navigating through life. Part of our role in this mess, especially if our ultimate aim is the preservation of our M and our family, is to try to understand at what level our spouses are, how stable their own thinking and emotions are, so that we don't pull out the crutches from them and cause them to fall all over again.
I'm back. H was a bit depressed last night when I got home, not too communicative. He said he was tired, so I let him be. My instinct was to try to get him to talk, but I was able to control myself. He was watching me intently when I told him about my visit to OW's training grounds, but I did not mention OW at all. I think he was anxious that I would bring up that topic.
This morning he seemed better.
I saw that he had his retrouvaille notebook out on the table with him, so I am guessing he was rereading it when I was gone. I think thats a good sign.
Just came back from another Retrouvaille post. I actually was the one who wanted to miss this one because I am so far behind our Christmas preparations. But H insisted we go!
The topic was intimacy and sex. We both agreed that we have a long way to go with developing real intimacy in our relationship. He also let me know that he is happy that we have restarted our sexual relationship, but that he was also anxious and worried that I might expect too much from him.
I have to remind myself to be patient.
H still cycles. The other evening, he again was acting withdrawn. I got irritated because he was not even answering my questions and acting like it was only him, D and the dog in the house. I finally told him Friday AM that I felt ignored. He got all defensive. I reminded him that I was just using our dialogue style to let him know how I feel. I also told him that we should start using the "stranger rule" (see MWD's piecing rules) in our household. He was not too convinced, saying things like "but do we really have to greet each other Good Morning, etc...? Sounds so artifical...... I let it go for now.
He did come round, as I knew he would, and called me several times at work. He also invited friends to come over in the evening (I think its his usual tactic when he feels a strain in our R) and of course, the preparation of food, fixing the house up, and the conversation between us and friends, along with some wine, restored the atmosphere at home.
After our friends left, I brought up the post session for the next day and told him it was OK for me if we didn't go, but he was quiet about it. In the morning he told me we were going. Good thing we found friends for D to stay in.
OK, talking about feelings:
I am very grateful and happy about where we are now. But my feelings ...... I almost feel like a third person, observing my own situation in a detached manner. The small hurts do feel magnified, the disappointments are acute, and I have to struggle to contain them. The happiness and love are blunted. Even my sexual drive is not as high as when we were not ML...and so I sometimes get a feeling of panic that he might think I am no longer interested in him, that he might see through me at those moments. I keep on working a getting those feelings back, but I know it will take time. As I know it will take time too for H.
I do want to emerge from this crisis a stronger person, more loving, more trusting,as Cyrena describes, and I know I will.
One day I will reread this and will see how hard we worked for something that is precious .....
Oh, I just got to post this. I think I am starting to get that loving feeling again! And it feels good....
H left for a trip again. Just two days, but instead of feeling relieved like I usually do when he is gone, I suddenly feel sad. And I am starting to miss him.
I am thinking of how much H has been changing lately. Last night, driving home from Christmas shopping (and yesterday was one of those days I couldn't think of what to talk to him about, and was bored by what he wanted to talk about) we had a little argument. I brought up that I wanted us to go to the symphony after Christmas for D's birthday, he said something about expenses. I got upset, as its D's birthday as well... and even before I could voice out anything, he stopped and said Oh no, you are right, its OK. This morning, I engaged him about some other thing and again, he became defensive.... BUT.... he caught himself in time, acknowledged that he was being defensive, said he has to change, and also when I brought up last night, said he was WRONG!
This is really new for me as usually H is NEVER wrong. Remember, he is a huge perfectionist!
I gave him a huge hug to show him I appreciate it and felt that he was responsive to me.
I think he is learning to face and accept his imperfections.
I have so many answered prayers....
That's wonderful, Angel. I remember my H doing the same thing, where he was actively changing how he reacted. It shows how the MLC can lead to introspection and growth ... and hopefully to a truly wonderful marriage!
Going now into the frantic, hectic Christmas days.....
Mght not be able to post updates until after all of the craziness subsides.
But just to let everyone know, you will all be in my Christmas wishes and prayers.
May God bless you all with hope and peace.....
I'm still checking in on your thread. It's nice to see progress, yes?
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas Angel:
Hope it was blessed with love and happiness...can't wait to hear how you're doing!!
HUGS!!!
FB
Thanks all!
My Christmas was a mixed bag of emotions....One thing I found out about piecing that it is to some degree getting back on the rollercoaster. And its one where both of you have to ride it , because now you are in this journey TOGETHER. No jumping off this time; though time outs are possible
First of all, the good stuff. H gave me a fantastic gift, probably the most expensive ne he has ever bought for me. A pair of gorgeous diamond earrings! In the morning of the 23rd, he did ask me what I wanted for a gift, and I said not clothes, or purses, I have too many. An inexpensive piece of jewelry would be appreciated, but I knew they (D and him) already had bought me a Juicy necklace, so I said that was enough.
Family came over to visit, H cooked Christmas eve dinner, we went to mass, opened presents, he loved the designer jeans me and D bought. It was nice.
Before Christmas, I was feeling blue.
The 22nd, we had a work party. He came and joined us, but he was distant and did not really interact with me.
The 24th AM, we started talking about finances. He explained a lot to me about our expenses, and we were doing fine, until we started talking about our acounts. He was actually the one who brought up the fact that we have to close all our extraneous accounts, and mentioned his account with a credit union he opened when he was alone here in the US before I arrived. I then had an idea that we should just withdraw all the money in it and went looking for our debit cards. Suddenly, he got angry at me, and started to accuse me of starting to investigate!
This was a sore point with us before, he had always taken the stand that he would never spend on an OW, and I did told him I trusted him and backed off from asking about that particular account of his. I knew he used it for small expenses related to OW during the time he was still in his EA, and for me that is already in the past!
I got mad at him, telling him that we had already settled all of that, that the past is past, and that I already told him I trusted him. I cried and had a minor tantrum.
He still insisted I look at all the accounts, and I did, so that everything would be finally laid to rest. I didn't see much, except expenses for some flowers for OW's birthday and a concert ticket I knew about and that we ended up watching anyway (OW did not show up).
Afterwards, we agreed to close the issue. Then we went about our own thing, buying presents, etc.
The incident made me think of some not so good memories....a few tears fell. then I picked myself up, and started to think how lucky our family is.
I realize that H is really, really serious about this when he was able to recover from the incident, even when I was having a tantrum. He calmly just said for me to stop it, that we should look into it calmly. Then he went and got me my nice gift.
It wasn't a wildly intense time.
But it really was a time of giving.... to each other, of our patience, and committment, and effort.
There are so many lessons to be learned this coming year, as we step into out new M, and close out the old. I am looking forward to it, at the same time, am praying that I will be able to handle it right and not mess up or backlside too much. That I will keep the chages I have made and add more to them.
I have a feeling that next years Christmas will be even better.
The thing about piecing is that it's hard not to just focus on the day or where your feet are at the moment. It's easy to try to look to the next step.
But I think that is where I got into most of my troubles. I was too busy focusing on what wasn't there to appreciate what was.
I see so much good in your situation. The fact that it was important to H to show the the accounts.
HI Harrier,
I like that statement - focus on where your feet are. I will remember that!
Easy to say, hard to do.
I keep reminding myself to just focus on the positives, but its so hard when we seem to be getting into each others nerves again. maybe its just the stress of the holidays, who knows.
New Years we went to Vegas and I was determined to have fun with D. Problem with H is that he was so worried about everything. So we go out close to midnight on the strip where there were thousands of people. I was taking pictures and suddenly, H snaps at me that he was getting annoyed with me for taking pictures up close. I got annoyed to and started arguing with him. It ended quickly but I just felt pissed and did not enjoy the rest of the night.
This is the start of several more incidents which looking back, I should just have shut up and ignored him.
When we got back to the hotel again he picked a fight with me. I was acting a little moody, of course after the incident in the street.
H: Why are you throwing a tantrum?
M: I am not, just annoyed that we don't have nice pictures. Why don't you smile when we have pics together?
H: I don't like it when you post my pics on FB. YOu are not respecting my wishes.
M: You never told me you did not like me doing that, in fact you ask me to post stuff on FB for you! And I do choose those in which you look OK!
This ended up with me so annoyed I wanted to toss our camera out of the balcony. I know, I was being dramatic, and that is one of my faults. But the point is, our little arguments are making me backslide.
The next day, all was fine again. H woke up happy, as though we had no fight, even wanted to ML. So I just put it behind me.
In the car going home though, I made a little discovery. I had his iphone with me to keep track of directions, and he would ask me to call people every now and then. I saw in his contacts that OW number was no longer there, and that he had deleted all of the pics with OW in them. Good, I thought. But suddenly, I had an intution that one of the entries there was not real (it was the name of a girl he had hired prior to OW, same position) and I looked at it. True, it had OW's phone numbers!
I was so bothered that he was hiding OW's number. I wrestled with myself on whether to confront him or not.
At first, I just decided to let it go. But when we got home, that evening before sleeping, I decided to confront him about it.
I approached it by first talking about how I felt comfortable that we were progressing in our relationship, that I did not anymore focus on OW as a threat. He said he knew that. So then I asked him why he had to keep OW's number hidden, I felt there was subterfuge involved. He said that was so I would not see OW's name and feel bad, to remove reminders. I said that I would rather see OW's name than think he was hiding something, because then what other things would he be hiding? He said he had not called her at all, and didn't even know if that number was active. I said OK, I believe him.
I decided to end it there, just to keep from having more dicussions.
To be continued.....
OK, here's the continuation of my saga:
So we did lay to rest the OW matter for now. Although that is only outwardly, inside me I notice that I do seem to get more episodes of memories returning to haunt me, I remember the things they texted to each other, I think about what my H wrote in his journal about his feelings for OW, I wonder why he cannot say the same things to me, or text or write me in the same manner as he did OW.... and I feel anger and resentment welling up inside me. It sometimes takes so much for me not to confront H, ask questions. Couple of times I have cried out loud in the car, or when I am alone.
Another issue that is surfacing right now is financial.
During the time that the sitch was going on, H was working 2 jobs, and we had a lot of money, and so I decided that engaging with him on money matters was not going to be worthwhile. He did spend a lot of designer clothes and hunting trips, and I just told myself to not add to the problem by pointing it out.
Last Christmas, my H and I had this nice talk about how we were going to organize our financial lives. I was assuming that we were getting back to normal footing and that his gesture was proving that.
We decided that we have so and so extra money each month, not much really.
But.....as soon as we got back to the house after NY, H disappeared and came back with a new hunting rifle. A custom built rifle costing 2 thousand dollars. Wow! I never knew he had ordered one. He was excited but I could not help but be a bit pissed that he did not tell me about it, considering that it was a big expense, after we just had all that money talk.
And then, he bought himself another jacket - an Armani!
I do believe that he is still in MLC, and this time, its all of these things that he is using to self medicate. At least its no longer OW....
Oh well.
There's more, but suffice it to say that at this time, it is really a delicate balance of taming expectations, recognizing what phase the other person is in.
On the bright side, we have continued going to our retrouvaille post sessions. The last time we went, he even said we will join the CORE groups (consisting of retrouvaille graduates) so that we could continue our growth in our M. He also wants to volunteer to help in future weekends for other couples.
We have restarted praying together as a family, and I am also going to start on doing daily devotionals for the two of us.
Since I am having trouble with anger and resentment, I have decided to go back to DBing and trying to detach a bit while H continues with his struggles.
Right now, I have centered myself again and am trying to concentrate more on work.
I think we have a long way to go.....
Angel,
I felt the same hurt as you that my H was different with OW than he was with me, even after the MLC ended--he even composed 2 piano pieces for her! However, you have to remember that MLCers are essentially having a "redo" of their teenage years, making extravagant gestures and statements that they really wouldn't feel comfortable with when they're not running purely on their emotions. Research has shown that the teenaged brain is wired differently, and so is the brain of a depressed person.
So, just keep remembering that the OW he wrote to was only ever a fantasy, the soulmate he felt that he wanted at that point, but he never knew her in the way he knows you because he never really saw beyond his own needs. My H admitted, near the end of his OW obsession, that on some level he'd picked a person who lived in another city, etc, because he probably would have become bored with her if they were constantly together.
MLCers do spend like teenagers as well, and mine spent the most as he was in withdrawal from the OW. Keep an eye on his spending, if it continues as it has been, to make sure you're not going to be in financial difficulties down the road.
I'm glad you've continued with the Post sessions, and that your H is willing to help other couples--this is huge!
Meanwhile, though, do everything you can to keep your hurt and anger from spilling into your interactions with H. Do whatever you can to self-soothe and detoxify yourself from those negative emotions. And yes, detachment is required for Piecing, since your H has a lot of processing to do still and will not be available to be a real companion to you for some time yet.
Still, when you think about how far you still have to go--remember how far you've already come!
I/we have come a long way. I only have to think of last year, how much pain and hurt it was at this point, and I am thankful that I am here now.
Its true though, my H was never to me how he is with OW. I am looking at our pictures from before the bomb, and I am thinking that although we were quite happy then, I don't really recall us being romantic with each other. That was what caused a lot of friction in our M, actually, was that I demanded that he be affectionate to me physically, and it seemed like he just could not be so. And yet I can't say either that my H did not love me. He was one of the most caring husbands, my friends always told me how spoiled I am. I told myself at that time that he was not just the romantic type, and accepted it. He is also such a good father. As we piece, those aspects of him are coming back. Sometimes I do think he makes himself do stuff for me because he wants to restore the M, not because he is feeling it, but just knowing that he wants the restoration to continue is enough for me most of the time.
Somehow though, because I know now he has the capacity to be that way (romantic) with a woman, I cannot help but wish that some day he will be that way to me too. I feel that he still, for some reason, is denying his true feelings for me. Or maybe I still am doing things that are somehow pushing him away, preventing him from fully loving me.
Today, I brought up OW again. Darn, I couldn't help myself. I asked him if their company has rehired OW, and he said no, as they still don't need extra help for now. WE talked a little about them having any communication, he denies it, but honestly I do think they email, I then shared with him what OW's ex-boss said when I met him, letting him know that I never asked about OW but that he volunteered the info that OW was more interested in flying than in her post doc fellowship. H told me that OW wasn't really an academic person. Thats the first time I heard him say something negative about OW. Hey, I started to wonder if he is starting to face reality!
He got pissy though that I brought up OW. I told him that ultimately, I wanted us to be able to talk about this time in our lives without feeling the hurt or anger, and be able to look at it more as a life lesson. He said he still is trying to forget, and that it rocks his boat to talk about it. As you said, Cyrena, it does take time. I do wish though he was more of a cold turkey type of person, obviously, his selfish nature makes him more self protective.
This time is geting to be a more quiet, slow phase for me. It is a time for me to think about what do I really want/need in this M, and work for it. However, if he never becomes the husband that I need him to be, (romantic? physically affectionate? Verbally reassuring? ) and yet I know that he is a good person and takes care of our family, shows me love by taking care of me, will I be able to accept that? Will I really be able to love him unconditionally for the rest of our lives?
Oh well, I am rambling a bit here.... maybe I should just go and eat lunch now!
H and I have prayed together a few times for our M. How does it feel when you are praying together? The feeling is somewhat powerful, as if I can feel a light or protection.
I was wondering--is praying together something your husband suggested or which you requested, and whether he indicated that it had a positive or bonding impact on him?
That's good news, that OW has not been re-hired. About reaching a place where you two can talk about her "without hurt & anger," remember that those are the emotions which you feel--his will be shame, confusion, and also some happy memories of the intensity of what he felt (like good feelings about having enjoyed cigarettes even after quitting). That time will never mean the SAME thing to both of you, even though you will be able to look back on it without pain at some point.
If your H is doing nice things for you for the M instead of because he really feels them, at the moment, it is fine to "fake it until you make it." As for all the questions you're asking yourself, definitely think them all through because once he fully commits will be the time to start implementing the changes you need (as opposed to want).
With my H, I usually go by his actions rather than his words. WE had agreed to put God in the center of our lives at Retrouvaille. I know though that he would never be the one to lead, but if I did lead on something he doesn't want to do, he's either not going to participate or he would ask me to stop, like he did months before (prior to retro). I tried then to get him to pray with me, he said he preferred to pray by himself.
This time he does so wholeheartedy. I do feel like it has a great impact on him.
I guess it is shame that my H feels thats why he does not want to talk about OW. He also feels the pain still of OW rejection (I don't believe OW rejected him, I think she was doing a negative psychology approach but he took her words at face value, or else why would she have kept up contact and even be the one to re-establish it after they had agreed to cut off?) I don't have problems though with him interpreting it as such.
He said "I want to forget".
Good enough for me, given that he wants to work on making our M successful. He still is holding back though, thats how I feel.
Just wanted to drop by and say that I have felt the same way in regards to how my H was with ow. The jealousy I felt. Also, my H was so shamed by his A that he would too grow angry with talking about her. And yes, he did start to come out of the fog and see her for what she truly is. He is so deeply ashamed. We had a family incident not too long ago where an nephew was having a really hard tome of things and well, my H saw himself and it was really hard on him. I do think we learn a lot when we see our faults in others and realize it's just ourself with another face on.
Hi MZ,
I can see from your posts that in some ways we are similar, we don't let things stew too much before moving. Also, you do believe like me that the truth will set you free. That is why now in piecing I am working on being able to talk (and think) about our whole past sitch (not just OW but the whole thing) without it throwing us into a tailspin. True, there will be the anger, hurt, shame and pain, but everyday that passes seems to throw it further and further away.
Updating:
H and I have started reading the Love Dare and we are in Dare #1. It is about patience with each other and not responding negatively to one another. So far its been good, and we have brought up sensitive topics in the past 3 days without flaring up.
WE talked about OW and how they were both in a vulnerable place when they met, and how they sort of fell into this "taking each other's side against the world (or spouses)", as OW was just newly divorced from a physically abusive M, and H was miserable from my controlling and demanding nature. He explained to me how they never really had a physical relationship, no kisses or making out, and I did believe him. He explained to me how he no longer even misses her, and how he could look back objectively to what happened, and all I felt was a twinge of jealousy. We both agreed that things happen for a reason, and that what happened has taught us a lot of things.
WE even managed to laugh about ourselves; yesterday H was putting on the expensive jeans I bought him for Christmas, and he said "boy, I love this jeans. I'm glad I didn't return it when I was being emotional! " I responded by laughing at him and calling him drama king, he in turn teased me about being such a cry baby.
WE attended a talk about the 5LL's and found out that both of us have Quality time as the first, but whereas I rate physical touch highly, it is the lowest for him. No wonder his EA never became a PA! I overheard him talking to another couple, and he was saying that he felt that although it was up and down in our sitch, we were making a lot of progress and at least we knew where we are going! That is so positive as he never really talked about our sitch to other people before!
He will be traveling soon to OW's home country for work. He tells me not to worry, and I am already preparing myself for it. BUt really, all I could do is pray and hope that in between now and then, we will be cementing our relationship and bringing it closer and closer to being not only fully reconciled but more than that.
God has been good to me, and I credit Retrouvaille as well with helping us. I think that sometimes, we have to hear about reconciliation from others to believe in it.
I know it is far from over, I still have not heard any heartfelt ILY's from H, and he is still in denial on some issues. But its been going faster than I thought it will. Its gathering momentum, actually.
So my friends, don't ever give up, when I think of how I had to hold on literally to my seat to keep from going home and kicking out H from our house many months ago, and how many of you here told me to count to a hundred and not to do it, I am so thankful. Many times, 25 or Cyrena or Grace_O or Lorie told tell me to keep my cool.
We are getting ready to read five love languages. I hope it's going to be helpful! I relate to much of what you write. My h has noted that he was in a vulnerable place as well when his EA started.
It is good that you two are gathering that momentum.
HI CTflor,
Yes, I do see a lot of similarities in our sitch. Including the fact that the OW's are from different countries!
Yes, they were vulnerable because of things that were lacking in our marriages, and whenever I feel bad remembering the EA I just think of how much I have learned about myself, and our M in general, and know that it will lead to a better M in the long run.
Reading the 5 LL's is just one of those .... it does help, because now we are able to explain why certain things affect us more than others.... and stops the "I don't understand why that matters so much to you...." kind of useless argument!
But Love Dare is helping more.... because once you decide to love and learn to love unconditionally, then everything else falls into place.
I am glad that you are moving forward. I tell you, it will be two steps forward and one back, so don't get discouraged if you backslide!
I haven't been posting that much lately, although we have had a few ups and downs I find myself able to cope more and more.
Yesterday, H left to go on a business trip to xOW's country. Its a short one, 4 days, considering that it takes 30 hours by air to get there. He is with his boss. Its something that they have to do as one of the patients in their research needs surgery.
When he first told me, around a month ago, I couldn't help being freaked out. All sorts of things entered my mind. He told me not to worry, he was not going to do anything to jeopardize our M.
Since then, I'd had a few anxious moments, but nothing that shows outwardly. I am generally calm, and have decided to trust my H, although I know that I still have doubts. To allay my fears, I am leaving it up to God, and I do trust God 100%.
The past weeks have been generally good, although we have had a few ups and downs. It was our anniversary the week before Valentine's and we did have a backslide then. The he night before I tried to initiate R talk and H refused to discuss, saying he preferred to do so later, and it made me angry. I almost lost it, then later I backed off. H reminded me that one of the things that drove him away from me is my unpredictable and volcanic temper. I did realize that and apologized, and we ended up having a good celebration. I bought champagne, he coooked a special dinner and bought me flowers!
Vslentine's day we had plans but he got sick
But to his credit, I actually forgot it was Valentines that morning, and he was the one who reminded me as soon as he woke up!
This Saturday was xOW's birthday. I couldn't help it, I kept monitoring my H's reactions, trying to see if he was thinking of her, but couldn't get any clue. We watched the movie "Fireproof" in the evening, and he was very attentive and made all the right comments.
I think I am starting to see what the bridge between DBing and piecing is.
I think the main thing really is forgiveness. Being able to make things work in the future, especially in the early part, is not about communication, nor is it about meeting each others needs. Usually during the first few months, you are too wounded, emotional, hurt, angry and attempts at communication and digging could still reult in huge backslides. It really all starts with forgiveness, and then acceptance. The others then follow... communication becomes more open, blaming is lessened, anger and resnetment gets under control.
This week will be a test of our piecing. On my side, I have to continue to work on not getting angry, believing the best of H, continuing to forgive and accept, and not let what happened in the past influence what I say and do.
I hope H does his part too, but that I cannot control.
I can only pray that both of us can do our part. Friends, pray for us too!
Hi Angel,
Glad to see you doing so well. I agree, forgiveness (and compassion) are a huge part of getting the M back on track. I think the forgiveness has to be unconditional (not just based on the fact that things are currently going well), and that the LBSer's ability to forgive influences the WAH's later ability to forgive himself as well.
As you state, you can't control your H's thoughts or actions ... so do your best to focus on yourself and your D having a good time while he's away, so that you radiate a positive energy when you communicate with him/welcome him back.
Thanks Cyrena, I am glad you are still around posting to me.
I have been OK, had a few moments of doubt about whether H is getting in touch with xOW while in her country, but no signs of it, and I am starting to sound too nosey in my phone calls/textx so I am trying to not ask about what he is doing there. Since we are reading Love Dare together (2nd time for me), I sent him one of the articles in an email, about believing the best of your mate, and I am trying my best to follow it.
Its been a few months now since we started on our journey back. It started in November during retrouvaille, after which things started to go rapidly in a good way.
The thing is though that I am starting to feel that we are getting stuck. We are now having fun, happy when we are together, and I would say almost at the same level pre-bomb.
H doesn't seem to mind staying in this level - I don't see him initiating much effort in increasing our level of communication. he still seems to be afraid to go deeper.
Sometimes I have this urge to stir the pot just to see some reaction out of him. Last time I even went so far as to tell him that I wasn't sure that he wanted things to work out between us, and that I was afraid that I was putting my 150% into making this work out and he wasn't. He just looked at me as though I was crazy and reminded me of how far we have come.
I do remember you said it takes months, even a year or so. I really just have to be patient.
It does get easier.
I'm not sure if this pertains to you Angel, but when things are going on an even keel with my H, and things seem calm, I feel anxious at times. Almost wanting to stir the pot myself. I guess there are times when I want more from H, but I am trying to be patient and let him work at his pace. It was touchy through November - January, then February he seemed to pick up the pace on working on the M.
Maybe your H is going at his pace? Just a thought.
Hi everyone.
Its been quite some time (2 months almost!)since I have posted in my thread, so I am here to give an update. I had some distressing times and had to stay away for a while (although I kept reading and in some cases, commenting on other people's posts), while I sorted myself out. I'm OK now, and am on my journey again (sort of like a detour though) but picking up more wisdom as I go along.....
My last post was when H went to OW's home country. Let me start with his coming back (and I may divide my posts into parts, as they may be long)
Part I. OW strikes again! OW went on a date with H's boss. H did not know and just learned when she showed up at their hotel. The next day, H and OW had lunch together.
No wonder, when H came back he was out of sorts. I was not going to ask, but when I went back to our routine of praying and reading the Love Dare, he was so uninterested and even complaining about it that it made me lose my resolve and asked him what was wrong. Our discussion rapidly spiraled down, wih H dodging my questions, making me feel that he was changing in his resolve to reconcile, until I asked the dreaded question: Did you see OW? and got the dreaded answer.
I was angry. All the bad feelings came back again. H was protesting that they talked about work, etc, but really - just the two of them? why not bring the other two people involved in it? She's not really hired yet, what do they need to talk about?
I snooped a bit and saw a fragment of an email from OW saying "that is such a beautful story...." - obviously not work.
I felt that OW was making a play at making H jealous by dating his boss. H told me that he did not even let her know that he was going to be there. The boss also had his eye on her even before so maybe he called her up. But obviously that encounter shook him up. Whe I looked at our phone records, I saw that H first texted OW the morning of the next day after she dated Boss.
Instead of being reassuring in our ensuing discussion, H was obviously unsure again, I told him that if he wasn't really going to work for our M, then he just let me know and we should just call it quits.
Of course, whenever we come to that point, H just could not committ. To anything, for that matter. He was just all "I could not make that decision, because I don't know. If you want that, it is YOUR decision." Of course, throwing it back at me.
I just shut down after that for the next few days. Cried to death, felt so depressed. It seems like the closer you are to an R, the harder you fall. I think thats what makes piecing harder. The ups and downs are more acutely felt.
I prayed for guidance.
And I did get my answers.... I got emails from some of the Christian sites I am subscribing to that were so appropriate.
One that really struck me was one about praying with your hands off.
It made me realize that truly, I was taking God's work into my hands again. I had to step away.
After 3 days, I decided to stop and not let anything matter. I put away all our prayer books, the R books we were reading together. I resolved to stop any form of pushing, even the things we learned at Retrouvaille.
I realized that I had started expecting again. I realized that I had stopped DBing in many ways. That even my resolve to put away the anger and resentment, and to truly forgive, had all flown out of the window. I was way off the track I had set for myself.
Slowly, I got back.
I realized my H is not ready yet. He may have started turning, but only started.
I have to draw on more patience.
To be continued......
Hi Angel,
I'm glad to see that you've done a good job of getting your composure and detachment back, after this setback. I was afraid this might happen, because, despite going to Retrouvaille, your H didn't seem as if he had come far enough in his own journey.
It's true about leaving them in God's hands--if you truly turn them over to God, then continuing to try to "control" the outcome suggests you're questioning your decision/God's ability. Plus, you need to be ready to accept that things may not go exactly as you were hoping.
Also, snooping will not get you where you want to be, partly because you really cannot gauge what significance to put on anything you uncover--only your H can do that, but he doesn't sound ready to be completely honest with himself (or you).
When my H contacted OW again after several months of no contact, it led to greater feelings of guilt than he'd had before, and sent him into the Depression stage, so in that way it helped him move along.
I look forward to reading your continuation....
Thank you again for posting, Cyrena. It’s so uncanny how similar our H’s behave.
Part 2: Consequences
The next couple of weeks after our big “fight” I felt like our relationship had gone back so much, not exactly to square one but to somewhere almost like our pre-retrouvaille mode. We barely spoke to each other, looked at each other. The walls went up high. The pain was back. I felt at that point like I just wanted to give up, to walk away. I was thinking at that point that I could actually be happier without H. The first Saturday, he and D13 went out to go shopping, and it was such a huge relief to be alone that I ate in the backyard, enjoying the beautiful spring day.
The next day, H brought us along for a nice drive along the coast. I was quietly observing H, and saw that he had withdrawn again into his “miserable” shell. He wouldn’t smile when posing with us in pics, not even with D13. Poor kid, she has this radiant smile and a morose dad beside her. That’s one of my “benchmarks” of my H’s emotional status….the no smiling thing in pics (he had huge smiles right after Retrouvaille in our Hawaii pics, and also during our Christmas party, just to compare!). Just in pictures though, because he does smile and laugh in regular conversation!
My feeling at that point was that he was back in his “I am trapped” mode.
This was all confirmed in the next few days/weeks. One time, he told me that he had an unexpected trip to make and because it fell on a day when we were having a school volunteer meeting in our house, I reacted (very mildly, to tell the truth, something like Uh-oh!). He blew the thing out of proportion, claiming that he felt that I made him feel bad ‘cause I was disappointed, that it made him feel like he couldn’t do anything, what could he do it was work, blah blah… I tried to explain calmly, but in the end had to yell at him to stop and let him know that yes, I was a bit disappointed but please could he stop it cause I am perfectly capable of handling it by myself!
A few more incidents …. He once told D13 to not marry early and have kids, that having kids takes away your freedom, so D13 commented that “Dad is so weird, hello, I am a child so he should think first before telling me that….” I did tell H about it, and he spluttered and said ….I didn’t mean it that way…..just thinking about teenage moms, etc….. Another time when I asked him what flight he was on and he accuses me of being in his business all the time…. All the generalizations…..
Initially, I was blaming myself for blowing it. We were in a good place, where we were starting to connect, talk a little more, then I started expecting again. I should have just kept quiet, not asked questions, let him work it out.
But later, I just realized that it was bound to happen, sooner or later. And that whatever happens, its all part of the journey.
To be continued....
Instead of being reassuring in our ensuing discussion, H was obviously unsure again, I told him that if he wasn't really going to work for our M, then he just let me know and we should just call it quits.
Of course, whenever we come to that point, H just could not committ. To anything, for that matter. He was just all "I could not make that decision, because I don't know. If you want that, it is YOUR decision."
Angel,
I'm sorry for your setback. I know this isn't easy, but you've got to make it clear to your husband that "no decision IS a decision" . . . and it's HIS, and he needs to own it.
"I cannot, and will not, remain in a marriage where my husband is still having inappropriate contact with another woman" is either a real boundary with you, or it's not. Throughout your ordeal (and yes I've followed along), I think your husband has come to the conclusion that the status quo -- the dreaded "limbo" -- is acceptable to you. He knows that you'll SAY that it isn't, but other than a lot of tears and anger, I think he knows you won't DO anything about it.
And upon the fence he sits.
Starsky
Hi Starsky,
I understand what you mean, but no, I don't believe this is the best for us.
Its hard to explain, but what Cyrena said is true - my H has a long way to go, and so have I, and actually, I was afraid we were going a bit too fast right after Retrouvaille, but when we lost our momentum, both of us started going back to our old ways.
I do not want to control the situation any longer. Pushing im for a decision will only force things.
Besides, its had to gauge the "inappropriateness" of the contact with OW. First of all she is 6000 miles away and H will only be going to her country 2-3x a year. Even phone calls are hard because of the time difference. When OW was here for a whole year, they only saw each other 5x, and 3 of those were because of conventions. I know that OW kept up contact with H for help in her paper (actually I just saw the paper H helped her write tonight while cleaning up H's desk).
I don't think he is fence sitting, he has told me many, many times that he is staying, and that he cannot leave us. Problem is, he is somewhat still holding on, prolonging the agony. He knows what is right, but he still cannot get himself to feel something for me.
But the vauable thing is I now know what MWD and what many people mean when they say patience, lose the anger, and be a woman only a fool will leave.
And I am working for that.
I didn't think you would (agree), but I felt compelled to speak my mind. What you're doing is a recipe for "limbo," and he's absolutely fence-sitting. You seem okay with that, and that's fine -- different people move at different speeds. When you're NOT okay with it, then it will be time to try something different.
I personally could never abide continued contact of my wife with another man, and "only" 2-3x/year visits. I value myself more than that.
You cannot "control" the situation -- only what YOU are willing to (or not willing to) put up with. Boundaries.
Starsky
That's the strength of this site, that different people can post from completely different perspectives, allowing posters to be challenged by opposing views and then make up their own minds.
My H, like yours Angel, had infrequent face-to-face meetings with his OW, in public places, and no physical affair. His obsession with her (whether he was phoning her or just mooning around our house playing a song he'd written for her), was the issue. I do not consider that I valued myself less for having given him time to work through Counseling and the latter stages of his MLC; in fact, I'm extremely proud that I learned to be loving and detached towards him. It helped that I could see he was in huge mental pain, that the OW was NOT making him happy, or even "real" to him--she was just a projection of what he wanted to see.
Also, I believe that neither of these OWs was actually interested in a relationship--they're just looking for someone who can help them with their careers, and for the pleasure of feeling that they control a man's heart without having to care for him in turn.
The first time my H "broke up" with OW, it was because I was pushing him too hard, demanding he respect my boundaries. Of course, after a few months his teenaged mind decided he'd only done it because I forced him to, and he needed to resume contacting her. He hoped, briefly, that he could have us both--but knew I would never allow that, because I'd made it perfectly clear that was not a longterm option. I believe Angel's H is also perfectly aware that he'll have to make a choice.
I know that people here say that WAS will sit on the fence for as long as they're able, but I didn't find that to be true of my H. He made the most progress, in dealing with his childhood issues, working through the depression, learning to use his rational mind instead of emotions again, connecting with his children and learning to feel for me again, in the approximately 3 months after he'd re-contacted her.
I know what you mean, Angel, about feeling things have gone too fast. I felt that after my H gave up the OW the first time--I knew I hadn't made enough changes yet. By the time he was ready to recommit to the M, I was prepared to let him go, knowing I'd be just fine without him. I didn't have the slightest desire to control the situation any more, only to do what was best for myself.
I agree that people can only move at the speed which is right for them, can only change in their own time. One day, Angel, you may decide you need to do something different. But for the moment, as long as you know that you're constantly growing, and are proud of how you're handling the situation (as opposed to feeling like a doormat), then your dignity is intact.
That's the strength of this site, that different people can post from completely different perspectives, allowing posters to be challenged by opposing views and then make up their own minds.
Absolutely agree, Cyrena. And I don't mean to be an ass, Angel, I really don't. I just hate seeing someone struggle in limbo, nearly two YEARS post-bomb.
Us humans are, at the end of the day, pretty simple creatures. At least I know us MEN are. And most of us are of the "body at rest tends to STAY at rest, unless acted upon by some outside force" thing. FEAR OF LOSS is a very powerful emotion, and my fear is that my husband DOESN'T fear losing you -- even if he maintains contact with his OW. And if he does that, I get concerned about your long-term emotional well-being.
Starsky
I know that people here say that WAS will sit on the fence for as long as they're able, but I didn't find that to be true of my H. He made the most progress, in dealing with his childhood issues, working through the depression, learning to use his rational mind instead of emotions again, connecting with his children and learning to feel for me again, in the approximately 3 months after he'd re-contacted her.
I'm genuinely happy this worked out for you, Cyrena. Lord knows, we need more success stories -- they're encouraging. I do think that this is NOT a typical situation, however. Any good IC worth their salt will try to get a wayward patient to be free of BOTH relationships (separate from your spouse, if you must, but ALSO go no-contact with your paramour), to get into the proper decision-making frame of mind and emotion.
It's a physiological fact that contact with OM/OW juices up the PEAs in our brains, and blocks us to most if not all of our spouse's genuine efforts to meet our emotional needs.
Starsky
Hi Starsky,
Our C was actually a MC, who we'd gone to together just after (as it turned out) H had recontacted OW. The MC worked with my H alone for 3 months, until they were ready to "invite" me back. Of course, there was always the possibility during therapy, including EMDR, that H would choose to end the M, but what H asked the C for at the first meeting, and later, was how to get the OW out of his mind and feel a connection with me again.
I gather that PEAs work the most strongly for 6-24 months; after a while, my H felt more guilt than pleasure from contact with OW--kind of like someone might feel after gobbling down dozens of cookies in secret....
Gotcha, Cyrena -- thanks!
Starsky
No problem, I appreciate it. As you said, each to his own, and we all have caveats in our situation that leads us to make certain decisions. Its always good to see how others think and do things..... I believe in havng a lot of options open.
There was a time when my self esteem would have taken such a nosedive contingent to what my H does. But one of the lessons I have learned through many people on this site, is that a lot comes from within ourselves - happiness, love for ourseves, etc. and that we do NOT need other people to complete us. And that is what I am working on, and believe me, I am making a lot of progress in that direction. That is why yes, I am doing fine - I don't even think of it now, I am able to work well, have a lot of happy moments with H and D together as a family.
There are caveats of course, in every relationshp that would determine what the actions of the LBS are, I think, and how much they are willing to take - if my H were physically abusing me, or mentally and emotionally abusing me on purpose, yes, I would not tolerate that. But he really does not. At this point, he does not really feel anything much for me, so could I force it? We have openly talked about how to work on gettng those feelings back. We both know it will take time, especially on his part. He knows having feelings for someone is wrong, and he has asked me to let him work on it, give him time. He once thought that he would never have a chance at happiness, because he was unhappy in our marriage, believing that there no longer was a chnace for love, but that he could not leave because of how his values and upbringing are. But after retrouvaille, he felt hopefull that one day those feelings would come back. But inspite of having no feelings for me at this point, he does take care of me.... he cooks for me everyday, even buys my favorite food, serves me at the table, is the breadwinner, doesn't spend on OW at all (the last time was more than a year ago when he sent her flowers on her bday).
What I have been told is piecing is hard. Expect many bbumps, expect backsliding, setbacks. Perhaps this is just one bump, among the many, that we will experience. But I do believe that he also has to suffer be able to see what the consequences are of setbacks, so I am not smoothing it out for him by not saying anything. I don't want to jump forward with my story, but I could see that H is now attempting to make amends and get back to where we were.
Oh, one more thing .... he does not go to OW's home country to visit her, it is for work. They have a research site there, and OW was one of their consultants who helps them recruit research subjects. I think she wants to go back to working with them, maybe an alternative motive for dating the boss.... I do not think well of OW obviously but I will let H find out about that on his own.
Anyways, I will soon post part 3, which I am working on.
Hey, I didn't even see that while I was typing out my reply there was some going back and forth between Starsky and Cyrena! What you wrote about being proud resonates with me, because I do feel so proud that I have detached, and that I have learned to go back to being a strongly independent, outgoing, happy person!
You know, my H and yours could be soul-twins or something.
How you describe your H's obsession with OW is how I feel too. He did not write songs but he wrote "romantic" letters he never sent - I think more as a form of journaling. (I found those out by snooping). NOte: H is a well know unromantic person!!!!
Just a few days ago, H made a cryptic remark about journaling - he said that wthe feelings people write in a journal may seem so true at the time they are writing it, plus seeing it in a written form gives permanence to it, but that feelings are still just fleeting......
Ok, got to go back to work now.....
Never got around to writing that part 3.... at this time it has become a moot point, as it seems like our M is going in a different direction.
A week ago, we were doing OK, then H mentioned that he needs to go again to OW's country. I was crushed, but tried to recover and then assured him that I promised not to be difficult regarding his work and that I trusted him to do the right thing.
However, H started acting paranoid, and we ended up in endless, circlar arguments that never got anywhere. I won't go into details, just thinking of it all is tiresome. One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdarwing from me, and he answered that he did not want tomake me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting towad me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
We had originally planned to attend a post session we missed on Sunday, and in site of what we were going through, he still wanted to go. When we were asked to share what we learned from retrouvaille, he said that now that we had been doing this for several months, he thinks that finally we are able to face our "ghosts" and accept what made our marriage go down.
I don't know right now where we are headed. Many times I had actually either asked him if we should just part, he tends to project on to me, saying that he doesn't think I could take it, I might become suicidal, and even when I tell him that I would survive, he still doesn't want to believe me.
His only commitment is to take it one day at a time. He still always says that he doesn't know if we will survive this or not, but that he is not saying we should go our separate ways.
We the realized that we were so negative, and I suggested that we should try to think of ways to be positive, and surprise, he agreed. So now we have an agreement to write down one positive attribute of our marriage everyday, and so far so good.
I am so confused, but all I could think of at this point is that it probably is part of the journey.
To add to my confusion, just when I feel that we are really very unsteady right now, he started talking last night about his lifelong dream of opening a restaurant, and was plannig for us to open one with a portion of our 401 K's! Wait a moment, I thought we were taking things one day at a time....
Crazyland still, as one of my friends would say.
Cyrena, if you are out there, what is your take on this new development?
Never got around to writing that part 3.... at this time it has become a moot point, as it seems like our M is going in a different direction.
A week ago, we were doing OK, then H mentioned that he needs to go again to OW's country. I was crushed, but tried to recover and then assured him that I promised not to be difficult regarding his work and that I trusted him to do the right thing.
Angel,
You guys have this exactly backwards. It is your husband's job, at this point, to reassure YOU in the relationship. If he can't see that -- and if you can't -- I don't know what to tell you.
He's playing you, and yet YOU are trying to reassure HIM that you're not "paranoid." There's something horribly wrong with that.
I'm so sorry, I really am.
Starsky
Oh, I forgot to include an observation: I had always seen anger in H before, short temper, irritability with me.
Not this time. He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
In the evening, he even decided to cook and have friends over, so that we would have a good end to our weekend.
In the morning, he asked me if I slept well, because he said I was having nightmares and he could not sleep, he kept on getting up to look at me.
I could not figure it out, but whatever it may be, it made me feel better and I was able to start my work week in a good way, functioning well and feeling cheerful.
So I just figure I still have something to be thakful for. And I am hoping that whatever it is, this changes means that my H is moving through the tunnel.
I don't know if I should still be here in piecing, or go back to MLC.
Oh, I forgot to include an observation: I had always seen anger in H before, short temper, irritability with me.
Not this time. He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
In the evening, he even decided to cook and have friends over, so that we would have a good end to our weekend.
In the morning, he asked me if I slept well, because he said I was having nightmares and he could not sleep, he kept on getting up to look at me.
I could not figure it out, but whatever it may be, it made me feel better and I was able to start my work week in a good way, functioning well and feeling cheerful.
So I just figure I still have something to be thakful for. And I am hoping that whatever it is, this changes means that my H is moving through the tunnel.
Well, he cares for you, I think he really does. He just hasn't experienced that "fear of loss" that I keep talking about that he needs to. He doesn't want to hurt you, but that feeling isn't as strong as his selfish desires to keep doing what he's doing, and so he keeps both plates spinning on his little sticks, like one of those circus acts.
On one level, it's compassionate. But when you REALLY look at it, it's cruel.
Starsky
Starsky, I know that, but what could I do? Its not like its a script. All I could do is work on my part. And for me, what I learned is that I should try to relearn to trust, and thats what I was showing him. I feel like I am taking the high road. I am not going to demand things from him, like reassurance. That is his choice.
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
You know, I was really trying to put together a plan for ending our marriage at one point during the week. I told him that we should plan to sell our houses in the next two years or so, and get our finances in order. I reminded him to pay for the company stocks, so we have college money for our D. I even had a plan in place for my returning to practicing my profession.
and also, he did agree to us going to IC. Thats a big step.
Starsky, I know that, but what could I do? Its not like its a script. All I could do is work on my part. And for me, what I learned is that I should try to relearn to trust, and thats what I was showing him. I feel like I am taking the high road. I am not going to demand things from him, like reassurance. That is his choice.
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
The following is not a criticism, but just an observation. And I will preface it by saying that I BELIEVE in "the high road," and I try to take it in my own personal life whenever it's reasonable to do so, and whenever it doesn't violate my own personal boundaries of personal integrity.
But it has been my observation that about 99% of the time when someone POSTS about "taking the high road," they in fact have weak boundaries, and struggle in that regard.
There's nothing "high road" about allowing yourself to be walked on, Angel. You deserve SO much better than this.
Starsky
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
But he still gets
YOU.
Remove YOU from his list of options, and I believe he just MIGHT do the right thing. And if he doesn't, then he wasn't a man of quality with whom you should be with anyway.
In my opinion.
Starsky
Starsky,
You are right about this being limbo, thus I have to say we are not in piecing. I think it may have been more of a false start, but nevertheless, at least it was a step towards reconciliation and not separation. One realization I have is that in piecing, couples start having expectations of each other, and I can't yet, as of now, expect anything from him.
As for me being part of the options - I think he is well aware that just like every human being, I can only take so much suffering, and one day, I too will break.
See, that's just it, Angel: I DO think that two years in, you DO have a right to expect something from him. If he wants to remain married to you, ABSOLUTELY you have that right.
There is a huge myth that says "marriage is unconditional love." It is not! LOVE is unconditional, but the marital relationship is FILLED with reasonable expectations and conditions that each partner should have upon each other. To be loved, cherished, to remain faithful, to make reasonable efforts to meet each other's physical and emotional needs, etc., etc., etc.
God and dogs display unconditional love. And maybe mothers. For the rest of us, it's FILLED with conditions, baby.
Your husband will begin to respect those conditions and expectations no sooner than YOU do, Angel. I can't guarantee that he will if you will (although I highly suspect that he will, as he obviously loves you). But I can pretty much guarantee that he WON'T, if you won't.
Starsky
Great post.
I'm becoming a bit of a follower of yours Starsky!!
V
One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdrawing from me, and he answered that he did not want to make me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
Your husband is not feeling attracted to you. His visit with OW probably rekindled in him what he was attracted to in her, and it reminded him that it’s not there with you.
You can rebuild attraction – but just like DBing it starts with rebuilding you. It’s about putting down all those strongly held “yes, buts ….” And remaking yourself into a woman that is OK whatever her husband decides to do. Because you will be OK if the worst happened and you separated.
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting toward me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
This stuff is all about his lack of attraction. “feels like he married his best friend” = lack of passion.
It is also about shame. I read an article recently that MLC men ultimately live, because of the shame of what they’ve done to their families. I read it from a link someone (Kimmez maybe??) posted on MLC forum.
It’s good that he’s opening up to you about how he’s feeling – but it also means that his emotional maturity is developing and he’s reviewing what sort of emotional connections he wants in his life. Often when one partners emotional maturity and search for emotional/physical intimacy outstrips the others – this disconnect occurs.
He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
Angel - He’s patronizing you. I suspect in his head (if not in reality), he’s getting ready to make a break, he knows that he’s got all the time in the world to get his ducks in a row because you are going to be there no matter what, arguing and being part of the “pain and hurt (of) the day” that requires a “ceasefire” (strong and pain filled words Angel, when you think about it) and making life generally unpleasant.
In his head, you are not strong and can’t handle yourself or him – the arguing and freaking out are indicators that you are letting your feelings dictate your actions, rather than your rational thought. He sees that – and it’s unattractive. He’s talking you down, like you would an agitated child. I agree with Starsky – he’s playing you.
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
Not only is that statement really judgmental and unloving … what is it 25yrsMLC says? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Do you want a husband who stays in a marriage because it is the “right” thing to do. It’s going to be a pretty lonely and soiled up place in 20 years when you guys are retired and sitting on your verandah … with nothing loving to do or say to each other … but “right”????
And him suffering from guilt and shame (?) … not likely to be a big reason for him to stay in the marriage. Remember, some schools of thought indicate that “shame” is what makes them leave in the first place.
You know, I was really trying to put together a plan for ending our marriage at one point during the week. I told him that we should plan to sell our houses in the next two years or so, and get our finances in order. I reminded him to pay for the company stocks, so we have college money for our D. I even had a plan in place for my returning to practicing my profession.
Because you wanted to separate, or because you were trying to scare and manipulate him? Games won’t work Angel. There’s a big difference between this and what Starskey is suggesting. This is a threat. What your husband needs to see is that you will not tolerate his uncommitted attitude to the marriage – but it needs to be real, and you’re not there yet.
and also, he did agree to us going to IC. Thats a big step.
But Angel, again, this is you trying to offer solutions and engagement to manage and control the outcome. You hold on to his agreement to engage in these marriage building ideas you come up with (that's what's going through his head, because there's no evidence he's been any ways to make the marriage better) This is all about you. He “agreed” to go to counseling. Far out, the man is so confused and messed up he should be begging you to go to counseling.
You can’t do all this for both of you Angel. Take care sista. This is tough stuff.
((Angel))
Great post.
I'm becoming a bit of a follower of yours Starsky!!
V
Acccck! I'm being stalked!!!! LOL
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
Your husband is not feeling attracted to you.
.
Starsky
One important point I remember is once I asked him why he was withdrawing from me, and he answered that he did not want to make me expect or hope. I felt so hurt, that at one point I was feeling so low and even suicidal.
Angel – the most attractive women are those who know themselves and understand their own strength sufficiently, so that when tough stuff comes up in their lives, they do not get low and suicidal … they get on with it. They smile, do their hair, accept that hurt happens – for without hurt how can we know happiness – and they make the best decisions for their life based on all the information before them.
Strong, smart, independent, happy women are the women men want to spend time with.
I think some women have a view that the strength of the commitment is sufficient to maintain attraction. It’s not. Attraction is something totally different to commitment and even love. Google “attraction” you’ll see what I mean.
Your husband is not feeling attracted to you. His visit with OW probably rekindled in him what he was attracted to in her, and it reminded him that it’s not there with you.
You can rebuild attraction – but just like DBing it starts with rebuilding you. It’s about putting down all those strongly held “yes, buts ….” And remaking yourself into a woman that is OK whatever her husband decides to do. Because you will be OK if the worst happened and you separated.
However, after a few days, things began to change. For some reason, H started answering my questions more directly. The things he said were very hurtful, like how he felt that in spite of our going to retrouvaille, nothing had changed in his feelings for me. How he felt that our foundation was really not solid, in terms of loving. How he still feels that he married his best friend. But I saw a change in how he was acting toward me. He started to tell me about how he hurts too when he sees me hurting, how he blames himself, how he cannot forgive himself for causing so much pain and hurt.
This stuff is all about his lack of attraction. “feels like he married his best friend” = lack of passion.
It is also about shame. I read an article recently that MLC men ultimately live, because of the shame of what they’ve done to their families. I read it from a link someone (Kimmez maybe??) posted on MLC forum.
It’s good that he’s opening up to you about how he’s feeling – but it also means that his emotional maturity is developing and he’s reviewing what sort of emotional connections he wants in his life. Often when one partners emotional maturity and search for emotional/physical intimacy outstrips the others – this disconnect occurs.
He seemed to have become incredibly patient this weekend. He looked at me, made his voice sound soft and even, even while arguing. He would catch himself. Even when I was pushing him. He would just say: enough, enough pain and hurt for the day. Lets call a ceasefire.
Angel - He’s patronizing you. I suspect in his head (if not in reality), he’s getting ready to make a break, he knows that he’s got all the time in the world to get his ducks in a row because you are going to be there no matter what, arguing and being part of the “pain and hurt (of) the day” that requires a “ceasefire” (strong and pain filled words Angel, when you think about it) and making life generally unpleasant.
In his head, you are not strong and can’t handle yourself or him – the arguing and freaking out are indicators that you are letting your feelings dictate your actions, rather than your rational thought. He sees that – and it’s unattractive. He’s talking you down, like you would an agitated child. I agree with Starsky – he’s playing you.
He knows what is right, he has told me so,
Now if he messes that up, its his choice, and ultimately, he will be again suffering from guilt and shame.
Not only is that statement really judgmental and unloving … what is it 25yrsMLC says? Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Do you want a husband who stays in a marriage because it is the “right” thing to do. It’s going to be a pretty lonely and soiled up place in 20 years when you guys are retired and sitting on your verandah … with nothing loving to do or say to each other … but “right”????
And him suffering from guilt and shame (?) … not likely to be a big reason for him to stay in the marriage. Remember, some schools of thought indicate that “shame” is what makes them leave in the first place.
You know, I was really trying to put together a plan for ending our marriage at one point during the week. I told him that we should plan to sell our houses in the next two years or so, and get our finances in order. I reminded him to pay for the company stocks, so we have college money for our D. I even had a plan in place for my returning to practicing my profession.
Because you wanted to separate, or because you were trying to scare and manipulate him? Games won’t work Angel. There’s a big difference between this and what Starskey is suggesting. This is a threat. What your husband needs to see is that you will not tolerate his uncommitted attitude to the marriage – but it needs to be real, and you’re not there yet.
and also, he did agree to us going to IC. Thats a big step.
But Angel, again, this is you trying to offer solutions and engagement to manage and control the outcome. You hold on to his agreement to engage in these marriage building ideas you come up with (that's what's going through his head, because there's no evidence he's been any ways to make the marriage better) This is all about you. He “agreed” to go to counseling. Far out, the man is so confused and messed up he should be begging you to go to counseling.
You can’t do all this for both of you Angel. Take care sista. This is tough stuff.
((Angel))
Angel,
Walking has given you a GIFT here -- this stuff is GOLD. DAMNED, TOUGH gold, but gold nonetheless (and no, I'm not just saying that cuz she said she liked my stuff).
I hope you will print out her post, and save it somewhere, and read it OFTEN. Within its wise and loving words is your pathway out of your pain, when you're ready to walk it.
Oh, and I'm not much of a hugger, but ((((Angel)))),
Starsky
Hi Angel,
I think Walking's post is excellent, and hope it will offer you encouragement as well as food for thought.
I think one of the problems that has arisen because of going to Retrouvaille so early, is that you've been encouraged to talk about the M with your H. However, neither of you is really at the point to be able to do that. He is still in MLC, which means he's led by his emotions, not reason, and emotions can easily change, even in the course of a few minutes. You are deeply affected by his words, whether they're positive or negative, but there's no lasting intention behind them. By all means, validate his emotions--they're very real--but don't plan your future on them.
The most important lesson we can learn during a marriage crisis is to "hold on to ourselves," to learn to understand and soothe and respect ourselves to the point where we can't be thrown off track by another person's anger, depression, demands, etc. If you find yourself feeling suicidal because of H's words or actions, you need to keep working on yourself to get to the point where you love and accept yourself, regardless of his choices.
I agree, nobody can make any changes until they're ready, but I think that's still the target you want to aim for, to stop trying to control the endpoint of his journey in any way, while getting yourself to the point where you genuinely don't NEED anyone outside yourself. When you reach this point, he will notice, and know that for the first time he is really risking losing you.
Hi Angel,
I think Walking's post is excellent, and hope it will offer you encouragement as well as food for thought.
I think one of the problems that has arisen because of going to Retrouvaille so early, is that you've been encouraged to talk about the M with your H. However, neither of you is really at the point to be able to do that. He is still in MLC, which means he's led by his emotions, not reason, and emotions can easily change, even in the course of a few minutes. You are deeply affected by his words, whether they're positive or negative, but there's no lasting intention behind them. By all means, validate his emotions--they're very real--but don't plan your future on them.
The most important lesson we can learn during a marriage crisis is to "hold on to ourselves," to learn to understand and soothe and respect ourselves to the point where we can't be thrown off track by another person's anger, depression, demands, etc. If you find yourself feeling suicidal because of H's words or actions, you need to keep working on yourself to get to the point where you love and accept yourself, regardless of his choices.
I agree, nobody can make any changes until they're ready, but I think that's still the target you want to aim for, to stop trying to control the endpoint of his journey in any way, while getting yourself to the point where you genuinely don't NEED anyone outside yourself. When you reach this point, he will notice, and know that for the first time he is really risking losing you.
That's an excellent post, Cyrena. I think the bolded part, especially, very intuitively hits the nail on the head as to why this is so difficult right now for Angel.
Starsky
Thank you all, Walking and Cyrena, and Starsky.
I am reading and rereading your posts.
As I am having more time to digest what happened over the weekend, I am realizing how true all of what you are saying.
Walking, the way you explain things really does make sense to me. I know I am stubborn, and still in denial, but the harsh and hurtful words from my H did make me see and and accept reality. I have became a clingy wife, the exact opposite of the person he first met and married.
I think I was suicidal more because I finally had backed myself against the wall, and could no longer find any excuses. That was MY rock bottom. For my H, nothing has really changed, and at that point he had to face my self-destructive phase and had to be the strong one at that point. Thus he became the patronizing parent.
Its a long process for me too. My masks are being ripped off, even to myself. I have become an expert in self soothing but did so by over analyzing and using all sorts of "buts".
I don't think this process can be measured by years but more by milestones.
Hi, Angel! I wanted you to know that I've been checking on you since you commented on my thread. I am sorry you have hit a rough spot with your piecing. If anyone knows how you feel, it's me. It took three attempts at piecing to REALLY get it right in my marriage.
What finally made our reconciling work? It took me adhering to my boundaries and letting my husband know I fully expected him to respect my boundaries as well. Without them, I wasn't me and the marriage on his loose terms didn't work for me. I was never going to happy, even if we remained married, if he were to stay in contact of any kind with ow.
Therefore, I told him that without total transparency and honoring one another's boundaries, he could leave. You know what? He did, and filed for divorce....for a third time. Once again, my kids and I had to go through the pain of separation and preparing for a divorce. As much as it hurt, I knew that I wasn't compromising my values anymore. In the beginning after he dropped the bomb, I did all the wrong things again...begged, cried, pleaded, made deals, asked for more chances...but in the end, it just wasn't going to work out unless there was change. Once I got back to DB'ing, I worked on ME. There was no sense in trying to fix HIM in my eyes; one can only control themselves, and he wasn't interested anyway.
When he did start showing interest in reconciling, I made it very clear to him that it was going to be on my terms: total transparency and absolutely no contact of any kind whatsoever with ow. I wanted honesty and friendship and love and respect and trust to return to our marriage, and as long as she kept rearing her ugly head into the picture, that wasn't going to happen. I made it clear that if he wasn't willing to agree to these terms, then I was fine to proceed with the divorce. I put it all on the line because I knew that I would never have true happiness if I didn't honor my boundaries. Yes, life would be different if I had to get a divorce, but after all the work I had done on me, I knew that different would be okay...even a little exciting...definitely pretty awesome at some point.
The past 7-8 months of piecing haven't always been easy, only because I have allowed anger and fear to overcome me at times. I've learned to get it under control, and thankfully my husband has been very patient and loving with me during those very few times. Things are so very, very good now. But again, I know they'd be okay if I were divorced or almost divorced by now, too...because I had stuck to what was right for me and us as a couple.
Angel, you are a wonderful woman with a beautiful soul. You know what is needed for this marriage to really work...not just stay together for the sake of whatever, but really work and bring you and your husband happiness. Stand by what you know is right for you, and please take this opportunity to really focus on you making yourself the very best you can be...a woman only a fool would leave, as we say here.
Starsky hit the nail on the head here:
Your husband will begin to respect those conditions and expectations no sooner than YOU do, Angel. I can't guarantee that he will if you will (although I highly suspect that he will, as he obviously loves you). But I can pretty much guarantee that he WON'T, if you won't.
Starsky
Hang in there, and know that I am thinking of you and hoping for the very best for YOU.
hugs, ncl
What finally made our reconciling work? It took me adhering to my boundaries and letting my husband know I fully expected him to respect my boundaries as well. Without them, I wasn't me and the marriage on his loose terms didn't work for me. I was never going to happy, even if we remained married, if he were to stay in contact of any kind with ow.
Therefore, I told him that without total transparency and honoring one another's boundaries, he could leave. You know what? He did, and filed for divorce....for a third time. Once again, my kids and I had to go through the pain of separation and preparing for a divorce. As much as it hurt, I knew that I wasn't compromising my values anymore.
To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I like to call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.
And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost?
All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.Starsky
Angel, how are things going? You've been awfully quiet this weekend . . .
Darn the internet connection at the hotel'm staying in....thanks for thinking of me, starsky. I'm doing well, attending a convention right now. I am having fun, presented two scientific papers, meeting up with old friends and colleagues, wining and dining important people- really, not much time to dwell on negative things.
I do believe I turned a corner. I don't know yet how I will approach it, and have not given much thought on what my boundaries are, but I know two things: I will be OK no matter what, and that I will do what is right.
I will be OK no matter what
Yep. You will be.
Hello Angel, Just stopping in to see how you are doing and catching up. (((((((((Angel))))))))))) big hugs.
There are some incredible insights in the last few pages from everyone!
I'm not sure if this helps Angel, but H told me in MC a couple of months back that he was very turned off by the begging, pleading, the attempts to set counseling dates, or articles I would email to him. He told me he didn't realize how much he was still in love and attracted to me until I finally detached and began taking steps to move forward without him.
I think what attracted him again was my attitude toward the end when he kept threatening to go. Finally I was like, fine, go and I will be OK without you. He saw that I was a strong woman, and that he was not just my caretaker.
I'm keeping up with my changes too. I keep myself up more, I keep doing more GAL, and things that show him I can be independent.
There are some incredible insights in the last few pages from everyone!
I'm not sure if this helps Angel, but H told me in MC a couple of months back that he was very turned off by the begging, pleading, the attempts to set counseling dates, or articles I would email to him. He told me he didn't realize how much he was still in love and attracted to me until I finally detached and began taking steps to move forward without him.
I think what attracted him again was my attitude toward the end when he kept threatening to go. Finally I was like, fine, go and I will be OK without you. He saw that I was a strong woman, and that he was not just my caretaker.
I'm keeping up with my changes too. I keep myself up more, I keep doing more GAL, and things that show him I can be independent.
Starsky
Yes, Angel, you WILL be fine--and believing that is really the secret to life, because it means that you no longer depend on others for you happiness, but have found it in yourself.
As for doing the right thing, that's a bit of a tricky concept. I remember the first time I came on the words "Be right or be happy" on this website, and realized that's where I'd got caught up during the first few years of his MLC. As H became angrier and pulled away from his children, responsibilities and me, I knew he was doing all the wrong stuff and tried to pull him back at first, then gave up on him for a while--but it was all done with anger, hurt, righteous indignation, and the feeling that he was the "bad guy" forcing a terrible situation on our family. I may have been "right," but I was consumed with anger and felt like a victim.
Then came the day of the bomb, when I asked myself if I still loved him, and resolved to act out of a loving place--towards him and myself. Whether he chose to stay in the M or not, I would stop behaving in any ways that didn't make me feel I was acting from my best self. I went through what I felt was "right" for me in all my relationships, forgave myself for not knowing enough to do better, and envisioned how I would behave in the future. And I became that person, knowing that all my changes were right for me.
Eventually, I got to the place where I knew I could be fine without H, where I could visualize life without him without pain or distress. But it wasn't about doing the right thing--which is difficult to gauge, because everyone has a different perspective on it--it was about finding and embracing my strength.
So perhaps what you're saying is, you will do what's right for you--and that includes honouring the boundaries you have not yet explored or articulated?
I have come around full circle.... I am once more reading the same old familiar advice from 2 yrs ago. I used all those, and they did work - in a sense, because we did not get divorced, life became tolerable because I learned to detach and work on myself.
So its not that I did not learn anything.... Yet here I am, back to looking at these all but at another level.
Still trying to figure out how I got here and what next to do. Yes, I know the principles, but what I am not sure of are my objectives. Whats the use of a methodology if there is no hypothesis, no purpose? I know what I need to do for myself, but at this point, not for the M and the family.
Perhaps for now things will be in a holding pattern. And that is what my next thread will be called, as i am guessing i am coming close to ahundred posts.
I know it's hard to see the forest thru the trees, and ALWAYS easier on the outside looking in, but . . . if it were me . . .
My purpose would be something along the lines of "To finally have the courage to hold up the kind of marriage I am willing to live the rest of my life in, and hope and pray that my husband comes along and joins me in working at that and abiding those boundaries, but if he doesn't, to be strong enough emotionally, spiritually and financially to know that I'll be okay."
Something like that.
Starsky
Angel, it sounds like your thought process is a very good one. I am a big believer in writing out both your personal goals and relationship goals. Check yourself weekly to see what you have accomplished to work toward achieving your goals and what has set you back. And know what is important to you and the dealbreakers of a happy, healthy marriage.
Remember, it's taken me 3 tries to get it right, and I believe achieving "happily ever after" is a process you work on for a lifetime. Piecing is hard work, but oh so worth it!
Hugs, ncl
It's taken me 5 years this month, and we are still a work-in-progress. It ain't for sissies, as they say!
Starsky
It's taken me 5 years this month, and we are still a work-in-progress. It ain't for sissies, as they say!
Starsky
4 years this month for me...the last three being absolute hell. Glad to know I'm not in this alone!
We've been going good for about 3 years now, but the first two years of piecing were rough!