Emerald City is Great!, but its still not Kansas..

Hi all,
Well it been awhile since I've written anything significant about my sitch, which actually has been puttering along pretty good all along. Actually, what delayed the start of a new thread for a while was coming up with the title. Posting to Jethro's thread today, I heard LL's "wanting to go home..." theme and inspired the title.

However, there are just those couple of things that just won't go away and continue in some form of nuisance, like a hair seen dangling from the corner of your eye.

As I wrote in my previous thread, Get out of jail FREE! , I felt I was able to stuff all my demons back in a closet, but there been some stirrings going on and I can't quite put my finger on them.

First a little background ... one year ago I was under the impression that my wife's state of mind is that we were working on rebuilding M after first bomb that she wanted a seperation in Nov. 01, but decided a month later to decided to recommit. (She picked out new wedding bands which I bought for Christmas.) So next week will be one year from her first attempt at a physical seperation when she stayed at a motel for a week.

On top of that of thinking about the above, this time of year always seems to bring on her worst symptoms of depression and she still has been having trouble with obtaining a steady supply of her medication. I've learned that intervene on her behalf only makes it worse, so I have backed off, but i wonder if its the right thing to do as she seems to be on the verge of a real bout of depression??
Then there's dealing with the increasing withdrawing and distancing.

Two weeks ago, my wife received a phone call from her best friend, in which the conversation on her end seem to take on a strange air about it with her friend seem to press her for an answer to somehting. A little while later, I asked her nonchalantly asked what her friend wanted and she reply "It's a secret, what I can't have those anymore?"

I haven't heard that tone in over six months! and I was caught offguard by the question, so I dropped it, but its been nawing at me since.

Then last week, we were invited for an evening with this very friend and her spouse for the first time. We had a nice time, but my W and friend kept whispering in each other's ears like two little schoolgirls while I had offered to "fix" their computer. That just made this "secret" issue pop into my head again. What kind of secret does she need to keep from me? Last year, it was that she needed to move out. Is her depression affecting her present state of mind? As the visit continued, my W started to get more and more anxious to the point that she decided to cut the visit short and go home.

As this week goes on my W's spirits seem to be rising again and she is a little more attentive, but as LL says, "WTF?" ... is going on?

'til later,
KAW

Ahh...KAW...sorry to hear about this mysteriousness. I have to wonder, aren't you on good enough terms with your W now to simply ask her about this stuff? I mean, let's face it, you've shoved a lot of junk into the past and have been a rather BIG person about her wanderings. I would think that she'd be somewhat open to discuss any concerns you might have about your R? IMHO, you have absolutely every right to inquire about these types of things, especially since you guys have been on a positive path for some time. What do you think would be her reaction (other than the "secrets" comment)?

Just my .02.

jethro

Quote:

but as LL says, "WTF?"

I must say I get a real kick out of everybody quoting my fabulous phrases!

KAW,
I don't know anymore than you know WTF is going on with w. could be her typical seasonal down mode, could be anniversary of the bomb bringing her down (I'd tend to think it's not just us that get effected by the timeline)

if her spirits are rising and she's becoming a bit more attentive again then why not just roll with it?

the "secret" could be anything....really anything...need not be something bad could be something good. Hate to say it but even the most mature women can act like school girls when they are with a very close friend.

re w's depression and your interventions... are there ways that you could intervein that may not be met with advisary??
I don't know maybe a gift cert for a massage or something, some bright cheery flowers? just a thought.

take care.

LL

Well I tried to squeeze that post into a break, so I apoligize for the quality of the grammar and I didn't quite get to all I wanted to say.

Jethro, since my W was diagnosed with depression eight years ago, she feels no one (even the therapists she has seen) will ever understand her feelings/thoughts, so she won't talk about them. All approaches I've attempted so far haven't worked. Every now and again, she will blurt out a phrase such as "Life sucks! or "I'm feel blue/bitchy."), then drops it ... any inquiry by me is met with silence. If I presist, she becomes iritated. Same goes for R talks most of the time. I had a narrow window shortly after her coming back in June in which she opened up, but now feels we are to move on now. I have yet to find what works here.

LL, I would tend to agree about the timeline can affect them to, but she seem to have so effectively blocked out any reference to the first half of 2002, that I would believe she has selective amnesia.

Quote:

maybe a gift cert for a massage or something, some bright cheery flowers?

I do give her flowers fairly regularly, but I like the idea of the GC for massage. Hmmm...

'til later,
KAW

Quote:

I like the idea of the GC for massage.

Or give her one yourself after a nice romantic dinner?

jethro

KAW -

I have to say that I really feel for you when it comes to dealing with your W's depression. I'm in the same sitch most of the time, and the most effective ways of how to handle it is a constantly moving target for me.

For each individual "episode", there seems to be a different set, and different varieties of ways, for "US" to work our way through it. (Emphasis on US, because the fall-out to the depressed person's partner can be devastating, as you well know).

Of all the things that I have to do, the "get a life", and "act as if" techniques are the most valuable. These things help me to not get too wrapped up into my wife's gloom as she's working through her despair, and helps to give her a solid foundation to lean upon.

Walking on eggshells just seem to help feed her "little dark man", and make her feelings of worthlessness grow even stronger. Even though I do put in some extra effort on being a care-taker, I try not to take over the whole load.

"Going dark" seems to push her further into the abyss, also. She admitted to me when we got back together, that all the times she insisted that I just leave her alone, to not come home and stay out and have fun, she told me the wrong thing to do.

There has also been times when I've had to give her a "short, sharp, shock", and let her know that I can't spend the rest of my life like this, and something needs to be done about it. Setting the boundaries on the quality of our life together.

KAW, if YOU had some answers for ME, I'd just LOVE to hear them! I'm still searching for the answers myself. I, personally, don't believe in medication being the sole answer. In my situation, I've seen some BETTER results with the meds, but it still doesn't help to take care of the underlying problems.

P.S. I'm not quite sure if I was helping you here, just venting, or maybe just letting you know that you're not alone!

Well I'm home now and my W's asleep when I got here, so I guess I have the time for a more detailed response.

So Jethro, some more detail to your inquiry about whether I can ask her. There have been a few times recently were I tried to encourage her to open up by asking how things are going with us or what's she thinking about?, but it doesn't get very far and she ends it by trying to assure me "It has nothing to do with you."

However I don't take much comfort in that because a year ago, she wanted to seperate and pursue a R with OM and she told me THAT had nothing to do with me either."

I still haven't quite figured that one out and doubt she will ever explain it to me.

LL,
It wasn't so much that she had a secret that upset me as it was her question, "Can't I have any of those?" (Talk about a loaded question?!)

While I don't expect to tell me everything she's doing, let's examine some the secrets she did have last year...and some of this ties into above as well:
Why she was unhappy with the marriage...
Why she was unhappy with her life...
... that she felt lonely ...
... that she felt that I was depressed ...
... that she developed an EA with someone at work ...

(she didn't keep PA a secret because she felt that would be the sure-fire way for me to grant her the D she wanted then.)

So back to her question ... "Secrets, can't I have of any of those?" Well, if they are the kind like above, the answer is NO! ... as they are detrimental to our M.

Well I better stop, I haven't gotten this worked up in a loooooonnnng time and I hear some stirring going on. Don't want to confront her feeling like this.

'til later,
KAW

P.S. I'm goiing to have to check out the marriagebuilders.com site Zebra has mentioned.

Kaw,I love the title...sorry that you have these feelings cropping up again...I am not going to go into any preaching mode, as I do not know what to say that is going to help you at this time, except that you have been strong through all that has occured this past year, depression can be a nasty infection in anyones life and also a marriage..my sister is on medication for it, and I really don't know all the details except she has made comments that no one can inderstand your feelings..of panic, sadness, despair, ..so I hope and pray that your w can get the help she needs to handle this and that you can find some peace too, knowing that you have been patient and understanding and there for her. Take care
Sue

P.s guess I kinda got to preaching...sorry!!

Quote:

she ends it by trying to assure me "It has nothing to do with you." However I don't take much comfort in that because a year ago, she wanted to seperate and pursue a R with OM and she told me THAT had nothing to do with me either."

Oh my goodness, KAW, boy does this one ring true for me. I had the exact same experience too.

Honestly, KAW, is your R not yet in a place where you can just say these things to her? Like what you wrote to LL in your last post? I mean, I know she might try and not "go there" because it's painful for her too, but c'mon, you have a right to know her thoughts given your past, don't you? Why can't you "insist" a bit more? Have you two ever gotten to the point where you can discuss WHY the M went where it did? Did you ever discuss the negative, repetitive patterns that led to your situation?

I don't know, my friend. It just seems like after this much time you ought to be able to be a bit more forthcoming, and she ought to understand the reasons you are asking questions. I know I already asked some of these questions, but I wasn't entirely satisfied with your answers...

jethro...just lookin' out for you...

^bumpety bump^

Kinda used all my time to catch up with everyone else, sure was a busy weekend, so I don't have enough time to post an update, but want to say thanks for dropping by and I will post an update soon.

'til later,
KAW

Just stopping by to say hi...hope things are going as you would like..
Sue

Checking in on you and saying hi. Sorry things are
a litte rough for you this week.

You always provide me such a nice pat on the back
would love to return the favor.

So here's a solid rap rap rap on your shoulder.
Strong shoulder -- bears a lot.

Hug hug hug.

You're amazing! You show awesome
patience and loving-kindness (as the Buddhists say),
and these are healing your family.

Hope your W's spirits lift a little.

Meanwhile, keep your own spirits up
with what makes you happy and keeps you sane.

Did you get over to marriagebusters.com?
I'm slowly letting some of that wisdom sink in.
I like the uplifting tone of the articles but get
a little sad that (around my house) we can't
have "radical honesty" yet. My H keeps his
little secrets, too. Keeping secrets is a marriage-buster.

Slowly. Everything happens a lot more slowly
than I like to operate. But I will list and count
the positives (like you do, KAW) and let some
"areas of the painting" remain unfinished for now.

There will be time to fill them in later.

I liked the best-seller "Feeling Good" too --
about handling depression. It helped me cope
as I dealt with being an LBS this year and became
depressed myself.

Ah, bibliotherapy -- one good reason to read!

I'm thinking of you and will check in again.
Keep in mind the days are lengthening already --
more sunshine is in store.

Bridget

JJ, I was too busy cross-posting to notice you massage on Friday. I regret I haven't yet read any about your sitch, so I hadn't realized you too are coping with a depressed spouse. I'm sorry to hear you seem as much in the "dark" as I am. I certainly can relate and agree to much of what you said.

This time around, I have learned how not to contribute to her dispair by being much more available, supportive and affectionate so she doesn't feel so alone. It seems to be making some difference, but I wonder if it is enough? I really don't think so. Now that she decided to stay in the M, I see her settling back into some of her old attitudes and I don't know what I can do to change the pattern?

My W believes there is some magic pill that will cure this, especially for her panic attacks, but I been surfing the net to get a better understanding and show her there is more she might be able to do for herself. I been focusing primarily on diet, because she really doesn't eat well balance meals and she is diabetic too, so that must contribute much to how she feels. She just started this month taking a multi-vitiam after I started three months ago. Slowly she starting to do things for herself, but I have to emphazise slooowwwlee.

She had been postponing since September some of the tests the doctors have been wanting her to take. She basically gang them all together last Monday, then asked if I go with her, so I took the day off from work. Now we wait for the results. Finally, we took one step closer. She has been searching for a new psychiatrist since December, because she doesn't feel the one she is seeing now is helping her any, plus he is 40 miles away. There are only two others that are closer that participate in our insurance plan, but she has yet to make a decision and move forward on this.

What exactly is the "shock treatment" you've done for those quality of life boundries you mentioned? My W has expressed frequently of late her fear that I would leave her because of her condition.

Never in the last eight years since she has been diagnosed with depression have I ever thought of leaving her because of it ... now after fighting to save the marriage from her independance streak and A, she would think I would leave because of a relapse of a medical condition? I've told her countless times that I take the vow "...for better or for worse..." to heart. Boy she has certainly tested me on the for worse part and she is still not convinced.

Lots like I turned this into another vent ... oh well. JJ, anytime you feel the need to vent, you're welcome to do it here. Maybe together we can figure some of this out...

Quoting jethro:
Honestly, KAW, is your R not yet in a place where you can just say these things to her? Like what you wrote to LL in your last post? I mean, I know she might try and not "go there" because it's painful for her too, but c'mon, you have a right to know her thoughts given your past, don't you? Why can't you "insist" a bit more?

Exactly how do you insist to a shrug of a shoulder or just a cold shoulder? I use to insist, which is why I know that is a cheeseless tunnel that ends with her getting angry with me. So how do I insist and get different results? I've been struggling with this one for a long time...

'til later,
KAW

KAW.

Quote:

Exactly how do you insist to a shrug of a shoulder or just a cold shoulder? I use to insist, which is why I know that is a cheeseless tunnel that ends with her getting angry with me. So how do I insist and get different results? I've been struggling with this one for a long time...

I can only imagine how frustrating that is for you. She expects reassurances from you, yet she is unwilling to provide some of the same reassurances? That seems a bit...slanted... I'm sorry, KAW. I hope that one day she will be in a place to share some of these things with you.

jethro

KAW,

sorry that things are not going for you the way you would like. sounds like "dealing" with w's condition wears on the both of you.

I would not give much meaning to her constant question of whether you'd leave her due to her condition, looks to me like you've done plenty to assure her you aren't going anywhere. perhaps it is just part of her depression to think that you would.

sorry I don't have much to add for you, feeling a bit down myself these days.

LL

Hi KAW!

My W believes there is some magic pill that will cure this, especially for her panic attacks,

Damn, I hate this part. My wife comes from a background of "take a pill, and it'll be ok". I'm totally the opposite, and we can go round and round about this one. I think that most pills can be ok for a temporary band-aid, but the side-effects can be devastating, and they usually tend to only mask the real problems. In the process of her search for the "magic pill", my wife got pretty addicted to some of the stuff she was taking. I've grown to really hate doctors that freely write prescriptions for all of our ailments.

I'm a very firm believer in the "mind/body, body/mind" connection. I've noticed the patterns of when anyone one in our home gets to feeling bad physically, their mental and emotional state follows suit. Also, when their mental and emotional states become askew, they begin having physical problems. This shows up heavily in both my wife's depression problems, and my son's epileptic seizure problems. I would suspect that the same is probably true with your wife's diabetic problems.

I think that your idea about the vitamins is great. I often have to ask my wife if she's been taking her's lately when I see the mood shift! Now that we're talking about it, I think that the most productive action I could take would be to become more involved with making sure that we have a more nutritional diet in our house. This makes it more of a win/win situation!

What exactly is the "shock treatment" you've done for those quality of life boundries you mentioned?

I've noticed that a LOT of my wife's episodes come from "life" situations that occur. One of her biggest depression triggers come from the trouble we are having with my step-daughter. We have allowed her actions to devastate our family. It often works for me to just listen to my wife talk about her feelings of guilt, sadness, anger, etc. Then there are times when the cycle of emotions just overwhelm her, begin cycling in her head too much, and I have to put a stop to it.

I have to remind her that our daughter is making choices for herself, and that I WILL NOT allow her choices to effect the quality of MY life, or of OUR life as a family. That when she allows our D's actions take control over her life, that it effects ALL of our lives, and that I won't allow that to happen to US again. That I can either be her husband or her counselor, but I can't be both. The choice is hers.

Then, it's time for me to just step away from it, and let the pieces fall into place as they may.

Usually, there's a short aftermath of silence and sadness from her to deal with, but she eventually starts to turn things around in her head.

Our situations are different, KAW, so this "technique" might not work for you. It's usually a last resort for me, but I've found that, in my situation, it's much better for me to do this than to keep building up anger and resentment over the situation. If I were to let that happen, I would begin to distance myself too much, which in turn seems to push my wife deeper into her funk.

I DEFINITELY know that the "walking on eggshells" thing doesn't work for either of us. In fact, she has told me more than once that it just makes things worse for her.

By nature, I am a better "provider" than I am a "caretaker". Although I can do both, TOO much caretaking for TOO long of a period, especially without seeing any progress, affects me adversely, which in turn affects our relationship.

The more I've been "talking" here, the more that I realize that I need to take care of things better on the "front end". I've been doing this fairly well when it comes to the general mood of our home, but it may pay for me to concentrate on the physical aspect a little more!

At least until THAT stops working, then I'll have to "do something different"!

P.S. KAW -

The "shock treatment" that I gave an example of above is used by me only in extreme cases, like when she gets bed-ridden for more than a day or two.

JJ, my W has been spending a lot of time in bed recently. I come home from work to find her there, sometimes asleep, usually watching the game channel. It doesn't help to suggest going out somewhere, because she hates going out in the dark. Its amazing how the darkness affects her mood. You know the cliche about being a morning person, but I didn't associate this until this year how it relates to the amount of daylight. Every morning, she is upbeat, even playful. By evening (which when I get to spend most of my time with her) she settles into a funk and ends up being too tired and ready for sleep by 9:00pm.

With some mild coaxing from DD and myself, she does participate more in card games and such. My DD has decided to enter a project in a local science fair, so that has been helping in spending some active time in the evenings.

Actually this leads to some strange moods she has been in lately I haven't seen before. Last night as soon as I got home, we had to go out to pick up her car from the repair shop. When I arrived, she was anxious and when I commented, she responded, "What else, I don't feel well." I made sure we stopped at the pharmacy on the way, despite her protests, because earlier in the week she picked up the wrong test strips for the new blood tester we purchased and now she was out. (Anyone with diabetes knows how important it is to monitor their glucoselevels regularly to avoid seizures.). Before I left our street, I had asked if she remembered the strips to be returned. She said no. I was about to turn around then to go back but she barked she will take care of it at a later time. I got annoyed because we are currently short on money and now she is tying up some more, (At nearly a buck a strip for a box of fifty and she has yet to straighten out the insurance coverage on them lke she said she would, so have to pay in full.), but I dropped it and kept going. We then picked up the car (I won't go into how much that was)

and then she followed me to DD's school for a PTA meeting on the science fair. She was visually having a rough time while we were there, but we manage to get through it. When we got home, she went to the bedroom, I started to clean the kitchen/dishes and prep my lunch and coffee for work the next day. She came out to help me as I was wrapping up my lunch. Started humming and being upbeat again. Now usually this goes along with her being affectionate too, but last night she kept a distance and was kinda cold, like "I'm happy in my own little world, but you are not invited." Never experienced this before.

She got in bed and read, while I checked out the mail, then had to use the bathroom. When I got out she was asleep already (about 9:00pm) , so I installed some more memmory for the computer I received in the mail and putered around for a while. When I came to bed she was having a panic attack. I consoled her as I usually do. When she settled down, we went to sleep. This morning I got out of bed she greeted me with "How you doing, Lover?", but no kiss or anything else. Its been years since she called me that and there goes that morning chipper thing again vs. the evening duldrums.

Guess I'm mostly journalling here, because her moods seem to be more hot/cold and she is acting in some ways I haven't seen before. Guess I should mostly lay back and watch the drama unfold and she where she takes this. The problem is the hot/cold mood swings reminisce of those "dark" times and that bothers me.

'til later,
KAW

Its amazing how the darkness affects her mood.

It's the same here on my end, my man!

My wife is strongly affected by that "Seasonal Anxiety Disorder" you hear them talk about. It seems like she often looks out the window first thing in the morning, and if the sky is gloomy and gray, she is certain that her day is going to be "gray". Whether or not it's an actual "disease" with her, or whether it's more of a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'll never be certain.

I try to shortcut her morning mood a bit by providing as much sunshine as I can with my mood, bringing her coffee, and just generally trying to get the day off to a bright start. It doesn't ALWAYS work, but it works often enough to keep doing it. It IS a strain for me at times, but it does help ME to be conscience of trying to start my day out in a good mood.

Living in the Pacific Northwest, we can have a LOT of cloudy, rainy days during the winter. It makes me often consider moving to a sunnier location to the south!

Quoting KAW and JJ:
Its amazing how the darkness affects her mood.

Guys, I used to live in AK and understand how people tend to hybernate and get down during those winter months. I know it's not a cure or anything, and I don't know much about it (risks, etc.), but have either of you considered some kind of artificial sunlight lighting in your homes?

jethro

Hello KAW,

I wanted to suggest something that has helped me, and perhaps might help your wife.

I have become a member of www.flylady.net who helps people break down house cleaning into baby steps. This helps my depression because if I keep up with whatever goals I've set for myself, with Fly Lady's help, I feel better a lot of the time. Between Fly Lady and Michele, my life is changing for the better!

Also, I find that taking my Omega 3, 6, and 9 really helps my moods.

Also, for me, fearing that those I love would leave me because of my depression, was something I had to deal with, and still struggle with. I suspect it's a common symptom of depression.

I hope some of this helps.

In any case, HUGS!

Quoting PhoenixNTraining:

Also, for me, fearing that those I love would leave me because of my depression, was something I had to deal with, and still struggle with. I suspect it's a common symptom of depression.

I do think that this might be a pretty common symptom, at least from what I've seen.

So, I have a question for you, Phoenix!

One thing that I found with my wife was that, in spite of her fears of being left, she was doing things to push me away at the same time. She has admitted to that being the case, but has never been quite sure of the reasons why. Whether it was feelings of unworthiness, out of guilt, to protect me, or whatever.

On some of her bad days, she would call me at work, and tell me to go out for awhile, and not worry about coming home until late. So, I obliged her request, thinking that was what she really wanted, for me to just leave her alone. However, in retrospect, she tells me that this was a mistake on her part, that those were the times that she really needed me to be around.

Have you ever experienced, or maybe done, this? Do you think that this is something that might be common in depression? Do you think that this might be something that the spouse's of people suffering with depression might want to consider as a possibility?

Quoting jethro:
but have either of you considered some kind of artificial sunlight lighting in your homes?

jethro

You know, Jethro, that IS a great suggestion! I've never really looked into getting something for the home, so it might be worth checking out some more! I DO have a lot of windows and skylights in my house, but sometimes that's just not enough!

I DID buy my wife a bunch of sessions at a tanning place one time, and it really did seem to help her quite a bit.

The only problem with that was, at the time, I had a helluva time getting her out of the bedroom, let alone getting her to go out of the house!

I'll look into that some more. It could be a great investment! Thanks!

Hiya JJ,

I can remember doing things like that with my husband. For me, I think it may have been my weight that I was using to push him away from me. On the one hand, I was mad at him for not being able to help me, (irrational and unfair, I know) and on the other, I think that somewhere inside, I thought that if he left me for my weight, then it wouldn't be a blow against my personality. So, I guess you could say I was trying to do a preemptive strike. Of course, my efforts at pushing my husband away, only made me feel worse.

Perhaps the best thing you could do for your wife is to do some research about depression's effects on loved ones. Or maybe get some counseling to help you deal with the effects.

If nothing else, maybe these will reassure you that you aren't alone and that these are common actions.

Now for my disclaimer.

I'm speaking from my experience. I'm not qualified to speak for anyone else!

Again, I hope this helps.

Hugs.

Wow, thanks everyone for dropping by ... lotsa good ideas to ponder about.

jethro, I haven't consider "daylighting" the house. I was considering incorporating lots of plants and the associated lighting that would be needed to support them, but our cat would have a feast. When I bring home a flower arrangement, I have to "lock" them up at night or there will be pedals all over the house when we wake up. Even with artifical plants, she narls at the leaves. As it is, nearly every light in the house is on at night, even when we turn "lights out" to go to sleep, there is a nite light in every room and hallway ... but I could certainly check into perhaps finding lightbulbs that give off a more "warmer" sunshine effect of light.

Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
Perhaps the best thing you could do for your wife is to do some research about depression's effects on loved ones. Or maybe get some counseling to help you deal with the effects.

PnT, thanks for dropping by. While I thought I was supportive of her by providing any service she requested, (ie, taking her to doctor visits, being with her for tests, picking up prescriptions, etc...), the biggest mistake I made to contribute to the decline of OR was not getting involved to understand her condition. When it came to participating in counseling, I declined believing the problem was in her head, so why do I need to be involved. Now I'm doing that researching to get a better understanding, however there is still much damage to repair, in that she seems to have lost trust in me to confide about her inner thoughts and feelings which contributes to her feeling she's all alone with her issues. She also must have had some bad sessions with her counseling as she dislikes the idea of going back, even when I brought up that I be intrested in going with her now.
No matter what, I come to accept it will be a long time, if ever, before she will trust me enough to open up on such an intimate level as sharing her inner most thoughts with me again, but I will never cease trying.

'til later,
KAW

PNT -

Thanks for your openess about this! I appreciate your thoughts!

I have done a lot of research, and still get pretty confused! It's a hard subject to really understand until you've been there/done that, I'm sure. Even then, I can't imagine there are any good answers. They closest that I came was having a couple of small panic attacks a few times, and some brief periods where I "might" have been "depressed", but was able to come out of it. I KNOW that this can't come close to comparing what a full-fledged state of depression can feel like.

You have my heart-felt sympathy on what you must have went through.

KAW - There IS a very good book, and web-site, about the "depression fall-out" that PNT was talking about. The book is entitled "HOW YOU CAN SURVIVE WHEN THEY'RE DEPRESSED", by Anne Sheffield. The website is www.depressionfallout.com

There's LOTS of good stuff in the book, and the website will give you a good synopsis of what the book is about.

I REALLY liked the book, the author is writing from her first-hand experiences. However, the first couple of times that I read was in my pre-DB'ing days, and it almost left me with a feeling of helplessness. I think, though, that combining this book with the solution-oriented techniques of Michele's is a great combination.

In fact, I think that I have to take the time to read it again, to see if I might be able to pick up some more good stuff from it, now that my situation is a little different than before!!

KAW,

I think for me, the biggest betrayal I felt by my husband in regard to my depression was due to his insisting that 'it was all in my head'. That I could somehow snap out of it if I just tried.

GRRRR!

Heh. I guess I can laugh about it now...

You see, I was trying everything I knew of to make myself feel better, but in reality, I was just doing more of the same, which led to a downward spiral.

I'm trying to DB my depression, although I WANT to divorce my depression!

I think that the web site JJ recommended would be really helpful to you and anyone else trying to deal with someone else's depression.

JJ,

I think that website will help me too. Thank you for posting it!

Now, I've been to my share of psychiatrists. But, I have to say, 2 of the 3 kept falling asleep on me. I finally figured out that I needed to schedule my appointments early in the morning rather than right after their lunch. Sheesh!

As for the 3rd, he wasn't Solution Based. Just talk talk talk....bleh!

I've found that Michele is right...whatever you focus on expands. So, I know not to focus on my bad feelings! And so, I hated having to pay someone expensive fees to do just that!

Double Grrr!

Now, I try to stay focused on what works. And what works for me:

Baby Steps!!

Hugs!

Have a good weekend.

Quoting PhoenixNTraining:

Now, I've been to my share of psychiatrists. But, I have to say, 2 of the 3 kept falling asleep on me. I finally figured out that I needed to schedule my appointments early in the morning rather than right after their lunch. Sheesh!

I MUST say that the rescheduling of the appointments is an example of "solution-oriented thinking" AT IT'S FINEST!!!

Blush...

Giggle!

hey KAW,

not much to add to the conversation as you are getting some great advice and valuable info already. just wanted to pop in and say howdy!

LL

Oh boy ... I feel like hibernating for the rest of the winter 'til spring, when the windows can be opened ... to be able spend time outside after work as the sun shines so I can counter my W's moods that have been sucking me down lately. This past weekend has been the worst so far this season. Nothing I've tried lately been working and out of frustrations, I allow some old behavior to come back yesterday, and that sure enough just made it worse. Sheesh!

Actually, I've been letting my expectations get the better of me. Despite my insecurities six months ago, my W's attention and affections were at a peak I hadn't seen in years. Now, during her better days, I'm expecting them to return, but they are just not there and been allowing that to affect me lately in how I act.

I guess as far as where to go from here, I need to wipe the slate clean again and eliminate my expectations from W until she decides to change something about her condition. (She hasn't listen to any of my recommendations lately...especially to make an appointment to get medical evaluation by a new psychiatrist, since she doesn't believe the one she is seeing is helping her any.)

Sorry for the downer of a post. One reason why I haven't been around much lately ... haven't felt like I have had much to contribute of late.

Open to suggestions if anyone has any?

'til later,
KAW

Quote:

Open to suggestions if anyone has any?

don't really have any suggestions other than to find some way to keep your spirits up despite the season...w has to come around in her own time and keeping the focus on her and your energies on her is not helping her and seems to only be bringing you down.

try to keep your chin up spring isn't all that far away..seems like we are all having a bit of cabin fever let's be glad we don't live in one of those places where it's six months night and six months day...(god I'd die there)

get back to you make you happy for you if wife wants to follow that will be up to her...you can't help her she can only help herself!! she knows that you are there if she needs you (or maybe you can simply let her know that you are there if she needs you, her plan, her idea, her goal, you'll do it her way instead of "telling" her what to do)
that is really all you can do.

LL

Hey KAW.

Quote:

Open to suggestions if anyone has any?

I wish I did, my friend. I guess it's like LL suggestion, just do something nice for yourself. You have no control over your W, but you do over your own happiness. What has KAW been wanting to do lately that he hasn't been able to?

jethro

Hey, Kaw..great to hear from you..you need to come by and vent..sorry about the down days...wish there was some magic cure for it all...hope your w realizes that maybe she does need to seek help elsewhere..but as you are so patient..it has to be her choice..keep doing the things that work..and keep doing for you!
Sue

Thanks all for dropping by and for the support.

Well, I'm a bit better today. Yesterday, I felt I had to regroup my efforts and focus on what needed to change to make myself feel better. Yesterday's post served as a send off in that direction. Apparently, my W has also recognized her part to contributing to the streak of bad days that led to last weekend. When I arrived home yesterday, she was definately putting in an effort to make the evening better than recent days past. In return, I let her know how I appreciated her efforts ... so there were lotsa hugs and hand holding. So my PMA is doing better.

'til later,
KAW

HI...who would have ever thought that hugs and holding hands would sound like heaven!!! We take so many things for granted...enjoy...
Sue

Well I feel like a ground hog who just popped out of all the snow around here and its gonna take at least six weeks for it to disappear.

After I was done shovelling this evening I saw a wall of snow 5 feet high all around my driveway and it hasn't stopped snowing yet. Temperatures got so cold this weekend, that I had some pipes freeze.

With the blizzard, I guess everyone has nothing to do but get online, so the phone lines to my ISP have been busy since yesterday. So this is my first tie back to the outside world.

Valentine's Day was dismal. When my W takes a shower in the morning she takes her rings off. While she dried off, we were sharing the bathroom. I took her rings from the countertop and placed them on her finger again and gave her a Happy Valentine's greeting with a kiss & a hug. She then commented on she was worried at first when I picked up the rings that I was taking them from her?!

It's been nearly two months since we've gone out for dinner because she doesn't like going out while dark, so I called around lunchtime to sweet talk her into going out for a V-day dinner. She seem favorable to going, then at 4:00pm, she called and backed out. I said OK and that I'll be home soon. Now for weeks, I been pondering what to do for a gift as she has been adamant about not wanting anything. I decided to go with a miniture rose shrub and a card, plus stopped at the market for some essetials (milk, eggs, bread, etc...). When I got home she was in bed...(again). I gave her the card and the rose shrub. She read the card and then put it down without reaction, and turned her attention to the shrub. She genuinely seem to like the miniture roses and how it would look great in the garden. She kept them near and smelled them often. She hadn't prepared anything for dinner, so I asked her what she wanted. She said hot cereal and toast. I made it and served it to her in bed. I kinda lost my appetite, so I just forgo making anything for me and made up something quick for my DD. My wife started to claim I will now be angry at her. In prior years, I propbably would have been, on this day I was not and emphasized I wasn't. The anger really is gone, but has been replaced with a sadness that must be how Charlie Brown had felt on V-day.

Soon after my W went to sleep.

Saturday was just too darn cold to go out to do anything, so we stayed home and did some chores. I decided to call my sister, whom I hadn't spoke to since the holidays. It turns out she is going through a crisis, so I tried to be as supportive as I could over the phone as it definately seemed she needed someone to talk to. My W was in earshot of most of it. When I asked why sis didn't call me to talk sooner, she replied that because of the hard time I had gone through last year she did want to impose. I replied I was always here to talk no matter what and that things were getting better in that regard too.

While filling in the details to my W, she deduced the meaning behind my "getting better" statement and she got upset and replied. "Its only getting better? I thought we were passed all this."

This led to an OR talk which help clear the air about some of what has happened the past couple of months and managed to get her to talk about some of her feeling of depression of late. She also wanted to know why I felt we still hadn't "made" it yet. Well for starters, she was the one who last said we were still working on M and she never told me she felt we "made" it and was secure in R. Add the distancing, decline in affection and her depression, I still feel a bit of insecurity about her commitment to M based on some similar behavior I had seen last year. I brought up I didn't even receive a V card yesterday. She answered she did get me one, but she could find it to give to me.

In the end, it turned out to be one of our most productive talks we have ever had and yesterday and today, she has been much more responsive, attentive, spent less time in bed and putting more of an effort to fighting back against the feeling of depression. This week I will get some of the books I had mentioned during our talk for recommended reading to find more ways to help turn our life around.

'til later,
KAW

Wow KAW!

That's a lot of positives!

First, your wife is now the one insecure...watching you closely, looking for meanings behind your words.

She was afraid you were taking her wedding ring away???

Giggle!!!

That's great!

And she was disapointed that you only saw your relationship as getting better, she obviously hoped you see it as 'fixed.'

Perhaps she's been so wrapped up in herself lately that she hasn't realized how she looks from your perspective. It sounds like that Relationship talk gave her some insight into how you are seeing things.

I bet you feel confused..but I see lots of good things going on for you!

Huggles.

Hi ya Pnt. Thanks for dropping by.

Quoting PhoenixNTraining:
...And she was disapointed that you only saw your relationship as getting better, she obviously hoped you see it as 'fixed.'

Yeah to keep with the theme of this thread, I guess she felt she was back in Kansas, but I didn't get a "Honey, I'm home" from her. So as she seemed to depart from Emerald City, I began to wonder if she was getting lost in the forest again.

'til later,
KAW

Hey KAW.

Quote:

While filling in the details to my W, she deduced the meaning behind my "getting better" statement and she got upset and replied. "Its only getting better? I thought we were passed all this."

You know, my W kind of has this attitude...that we need to just move on and forget the past. I'm sure they both feel quite guilty about what happened and don't want to be reminded about the damage they have done. Heck, my W wonders why I can't just trust her.

Give me a break!

I'm glad you had a productive conversation with her. I've been wondering about this from you because it seems like you've made some great sacrifices, swallowed a lot of pride, and let things go without conversing with her very much about it (at least, it's always been my impression that you've yet to really have a BIG R talk about everything and how you feel and where you stand, etc.). I'm happy for you.

What books were you thinking about getting?

jethro

Hi Jethro,

As I had mentioned when I tried to initiate a discusion on the subject, it was like knocking on a closed door and she wouldn't answer. Its the first time since last June that she had opened the door again herself, by directly asking, "Can we talk about us?"... The question now is, will she be willing to keep the door open so I can come back and get some answers to the questions I may feel the need to ask down the road or is this still a one way street? ... but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. (Alright, enough with the roadside metaphors!)

My W has developed a pessimistic frame of mind and I believe is the main source that keeps her in the cycle of anxiety. It is going to take more than me saying it however to convince her. The books I'm hoping will help are:

"Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by David D.Burns, Md.

plus Michelle's book: "Change Your Life and Everyone In It"
I would like her to understand that even on a personal level, the pattern of what hasn't work can be broken and with "butterfly" effect, 180's and acting "as-if", etc... she can change her perception around which will result in her feeling better about herself and expand from there. While all this is in DR, she is intimidated by the title and won't read it. With the emphasis of this book being more on the personal level than on the marital relationship, I would hope she would be more open to reading it.

There is a book I want to get for me called, "HOW YOU CAN SURVIVE WHEN THEY'RE DEPRESSED: Living and Coping with Depression Fallout" by Anne Sheffield. I hope this will help me continue in keeping the positive changes going.

Anyone else have others they would recommend, I would love to hear about them ...

'til later,
KAW

P.S. Oops, didn't mean to imply I wasn't going to read the other books. Do plan on reading these with W, but the last one is to help me with my personal goals.

I read "Change Your Life and Everyone In It" and thought it was great. I actually gave it to MIL and she's reading it right now. I also want my W to read it, but she's reading "Love Languages." When MIL is finished, I'm hoping my W will read the other one.

I'm glad that door was opened to you KAW.

jethro

Hi..KAW..I really feel for you and the wonderful job you are doing with coping with your wife and depression..my sister is on medication for depression and panic attacks..she is single..never married and whiel I am not that close to her to talk about it, I know she has suffered..society still does not totaly recognize beyond thinks people just make it up or they are crazy.I think you mentioned your w is on medication..does it seem to be doing any good? There is so much more hope out there..she seems like she has a ways to go..again though you sound like a saint to be able to cope and have the paitence..that's what I call tru love for someone..to stand beside them through the bad times.Glad to hear you are reading things for you...you need outside support to keep up the strength to give your w support..never ending circle.
Take care
Sue

Thanks for visiting Sue and your too kind to make the reference to a saint. I feel far from it. While I always felt I was being supportive for my W, I've learned I didn't give nearly enough which contributed to her feeling she wanted out of M. I feel very fortunate to be given a second chance to learn from my mistakes and be able to do it right this time.

My W has been on Prozac. About a 1� years ago the insurance company switch it with the generic brand. In three months, she was back to having anxiety attacks. The doctor put her back on prozac, but this time the attacks didn't go away. Doctor called it "Prozac Poop-out" and upped the dosage twice, but she continues to have attacks a few times a week.

Speaking of which, I gotta go, she just woke having another one...this...after having a real good eveining.

'til later,
KAW

Good morning folks,
Got through another episode OK. Last night's attack wasn't as bad, however they always manage to get her quite down after they occur.

But to get her mind off it, she decided to do a little reading before trying to go to sleep again and we managed to settle in for the night...

Getting back to Sue's post, I just wanted to comment in addition that this board has been a tremendous support for me. Just visiting other theads is a great reminder to me not to take her actions so personally and let any resentment go. I can believe that the outcome of our sitch would have been quite different if I hadn't discovered this site.

'til later,
KAW

Quote:

I can believe that the outcome of our sitch would have been quite different if I hadn't discovered this site.

I can definately say you are not alone in this thought! I know for sure that had michelles book not been recommended to me back in june h surley would not be home right now!! and even if he came back he surley would not still be here.
it's a blessing to have such a place with people who understand what we are going through.

always remember to take care of you!!!

LL

Quote:

Maybe they're right ... I've haven't tried acting "as-if" it never happened. Would like to try, but wonder how to pull it off?

most days I try to act as if it never happend...but honestly that can't be the way to do this....I saw once on an episode of dr. phil..(don't watch that show often as it interferes with sponge-bob square pants) a man had an a...they decided to stay together, h ends the a...but they never talk about it...h trying to just move on..w trying to move on but slowly dying inside from the pain...wanting to work it out..dr phil..says there really is no way to heal the r without talking about what happend.

most days I try to act like it didn't happen like the whole past year was a wash...but it wasn't there is a whole lot of resentment and bitterness resting inside and it has nowhere to go...I've told my h that I would like to seek c to at least talk about things..not that I want to dig up old trash or open closets or anything but to learn to understand eachother better etc...

I don't know how long the acting as if can really work...if it works for them thats fine and dandy but I don't really think it's healthy. you have to face your demons at some point don't you???

LL

I know its a cliche, but I have found most cliches really do apply to DBing ... Time heals all wounds. Acting "as-if" is not suppose to be a permanent solution but only a temporary measure during the transition until the healing has occured, then it shouldn't be needed anymore. How long it takes it different for each person and the deep emotional hurt will take longer to heal ... awwaah he!!, I don't know. I'm still searching for answers myself, but I am in awe on how our S's make it work for them...

'til later,
KAW

Hi, Kaw. Thanks for stopping by my thread.
You're always a sane and supportive voice!

I admire your patience and kindness.

I also enthusiastically agree that this forum
has kept the light on for me. I would still
be in the dark about what hit me if I hadn't
picked up Michele's book a year ago.

It's also reassuring to see others have
ups and downs, and to share the struggle
to continue DB-ing when you're hurting.

My confidence faltered today on a simple
dog walk -- in the park sat a grrrllll who
looked like the OW, laughing on a blanket
on the grass. I wanted to strangle her.
Suddenly I was in pain.

Yet when I got home my H wrapped me
up in a big hug and teased with me.
He left his email open to view, humming,
promising he'd finish the dishes later.

He doesn't have a clue about my broken heart.

Well, you know, it's best not to call it a broken
heart now. It's a RE-BUILT heart, and it's gonna
go for millions more miles. It's better not to pick
at the glue, handle the senstive area, open the
wound.

Better to LOOK AT THE GOOD.

KAW, you told someone recently not to talk/think
in "all or nothing" terms -- and I agree. Also,
let's not catastrophize.

Those panicky fears bubble up, but I'm trying
not to give them credibility or focus.
Still, ya gotta weather them somehow.

And that's where you guys save my life.

Thanks, and happy sunny cheerful musical day
to KAW.

Bridget

Kaw..sorry about the attack..we have no idea what they must be like...it must be a constant fear of what if it happens..or when..I hope your w will be able to improve as time goes on..
I too, agree with everyone..if I had not found the books and this site. I am almost sure h and I would be heading into d court..(It may still happen)but I know that I would not have handled myself in the way that I have...there would have been things said that you can never take back, and that is what would have pulled us apart.Sometimes I think I should not be here, as I don't have any big things going on, but I need to connect to others, if only to say hi, and have someone who knows how I feel care.
Hope your night is better
Sue

KAW -

Have you ever tried reading out loud to your wife to help avert the attacks? My wife found it very soothing to hear my voice as I was reading to her. No "get smarter" types of books, just some of her favorites, to help take her to a different place. My wife's favorite was a silly Bette Middler book. Just a thought if you haven't tried it.

Also, prozac was a very, very, very bad med for my wife. It did wierd things to her both times she tried it, and didn't help with her panic attacks at all. In fact, I think it may have contributed to her having more! I know that different meds work for different people, and sometimes it might be a combination that works best. To be honest with you, I've heard a lot of bad things about prozac, and there are a lot of other, newer meds out there. "We" will never take that one again.

Hang in there, buddy. I/we just got through riding out another wave, brought on by some old family issue demons, which I think she has hit bottom on. We'll hopefully never be plagued with this situation, for that cause, again. I think that things are at a better place now for both of us than they were before. So, it CAN happen!

Quoting BRIDGET:
Better to LOOK AT THE GOOD.

All to true. Thanks for the gentle reminder.

Quoting hoping :
...it must be a constant fear of what if it happens..or when..

Thanks for dropping by Sue. You are always welcome here. ... and that sums up the vicious cycle in a nutshell!!

That constant fear is what triggers the majority of the attacks ... a self-fulfilling prophecy in its purest form.

JJ, alway glad to see you stop by. In general, my W has told me several times she doesn't like being read to, but it might be something to explore as it relates to her attacks. (Jethro, also mentioned how his W likes to have him chatter about nothing of real importance but the sound of his voice soothes her.) She does get a premonition that an attack is coming on. Often she tries to keep it to herself, but if we can find something that soothes her during this phase, perhaps we could ward off an attack.

My W had three really good years when she first started taking Prozac, so she is convinced that the med is the main reason for when she does feel good, but those time have gotten to far between to say it really working. You're right there may be something new out there that may be more effective. This is why I would like her see a new psychiatrist, but she has been procrastinating on this front. My biggest fear now is she might have to be hospitalized again. She mentioned this past weekend that she has had thoughts of suicide again. Not that she wants to act upon them like she did eight years ago when she had it all planned out, but she is afraid that they may persist, now that they have surfaced again. The problem here is she has such a BIG fear of being admitted into a hospital again that she has stated she would rather face death than go back in. Last year during the time when all I ever saw from her was a lot of anger towards me, it was in an early MC session when she admitted to thoughts of suicide at that time. By law the C has to make sure the patient follows up immediately with a psychiatric session. My W just crumbled with the possibility of ending up being admitted that she just clinged to me and pleaded with me continuously not to have her locked up. The follow up only turned out to be an adjustment in her medication, but that wasn't entirely effective which is one reason I would like her to seek a second opinion.

Anyway, JJ, I'm glad to hear that you came out on top of your most recent "surfing" adventure. I do look towards you for inspiration.

'til later,
KAW

Just real quick here, KAW, 'cuz I need to tend to more "preventive medicine" at this house!

Often she tries to keep it to herself, but if we can find something that soothes her during this phase, perhaps we could ward off an attack.

I don't think that the "keeping it to herself" thing could ever be good. I've found that when my wife does this, it just keeps cycling in her head, and growing. This is one area that might take some thought on how to either divert, or release and process, her thoughts.

The suicide thoughts is a very touchy area. Just went through that, too, but fortunately it was just feelings, and not a whole lot of efforts towards action. I wasn't sure what to do, but felt that hospitalization might have made matters worse at the time. We were VERY lucky that I was right. Does your wife do any journaling? This helps my wife to release some of her thoughts, and get them down on paper, no matter how ugly they are.

Meds for anxiety and depression are kinda funny, in the fact that it seems that what works well for awhile often loses it's effectiveness. Don't know if it's a biological, physiological, psychological, or illogical thing. Just seems to be that way.

Gotta run, but will get back to you later, my friend! Hope your night goes well!

Hey KAW.

Quote:

Jethro, also mentioned how his W likes to have him chatter about nothing of real importance but the sound of his voice soothes her.

What're you tryin' to say?

Sorry to hear your W is having an especially hard time lately. When my W had her attack, I simply kept talking about home improvements we could make, trips we could take, etc. Fun stuff. But she wouldn't let me stop! I'm not really a chatter box, so to go on for a couple of hours was a challenge! In any case, maybe give it a try to see how it works. Good luck, my friend.

jethro

Quoting Jamesjohn:
This is one area that might take some thought on how to either divert, or release and process, her thoughts.

This is where I am hoping the book "Feeling Good" (still wanting for delivery) I mentioned before will help out.

Only when my W gets into a constant state of dispair does she journal.

That's one of the reasons why I'm a "snooper", because new entries are a key flag for me to know she is preparing to act upon how she feels. She never journals when she better about herself.

Jethro, I was just making a connection between your experience and JJ's in how the sound of your voices seem to sooth your S's. For the most part, I've trying to coach her thru them. Gentle reminders to breath thru it, telling her it will pass and she will be alright, but for the most part I try to be quiet to allow her to focus on keeping her breathing regular. Maybe its time to take a different approach.

'til later,
KAW

Quote:

Jethro, I was just making a connection between your experience and JJ's in how the sound of your voices seem to sooth your S's.

I know...I was just ribbin' you!

My W didn't really wanting me to coach her. She didn't want me to mention her anxiety AT ALL...just wanted me to chatter away... Not sure which method would be better... Perhaps a combination?

jethro

Quote:

Gentle reminders to breath thru it, telling her it will pass and she will be alright, but for the most part I try to be quiet to allow her to focus on keeping her breathing regular. Maybe its time to take a different approach.

not that I know if I suffer from depression or anxiety or not..(think sometimes I do get overwhelmed with life) but when I get in a mood..especially at night trying to fall asleep and things are spinning through my head...h has always told me to breath and relax...and honestly it does about as much good as a man telling a woman who is in labor to breath...I know h is only trying to help but most of the time it only serves to add another item to the list of thoughts running through my head...like why does h tell me to just breath and relax instead of "activly" listening to me??

I wonder KAW if wife journals...is there anyway she could verbally journal to you?? without you trying to "fix" everything for her...but simply listening and trying to understand and validate her feelings? even if they have nothing to do with you or you don't fully understand them?

I know my h has never fully understood my feelings..because for the most part I simply let too much effect me...the days interactions run through my head and I sit and wonder did I say the right thing..did I offend anyone etc...h doesn't think in this manner so thinks I should just be like him and shrug it all off...and breath...doesn't work for me...all I seek is some affirmation..validation...understanding...

do I make any sense??

LL

Barrie Konikov has some really good meditation tapes.

http://thepotentialsunlimited.com/tape-stress.htm

I've listened to his 'relieve stress and anxiety tape.' It's pretty good, but lately I've been sticking with his weight loss tape and his astral projection tape. I like the astral projection tape because it gets into the relaxation exercises right away. I think the relieve stress and anxiety tape starts with an exercise in which you re-create in your mind a nasty situation. His point is that it's in your mind, and your feelings react to what's in your mind, rather than the other way around. However, I don't find it very relaxing and if she is in the middle of an attack, I don't think it would help! If you decided to buy this tape, you could record a copy of it without that first part so that she'll have the relaxation exercises.

Every tape of his starts with, "Hello, Greetings...and Welcome." My dad hears that and he falls asleep instantly...talk about trained!

My mom bought a whole bunch of tapes back about 15 years ago. I've listened to most of them. He has a really calming voice.

I also like his psychic protection because it walks you through creating a 'safe place' in your mind.

Perhaps this would be a good alternative to babbling?

I find it calming to listen to the same tape again and again. And it trains my mind to know that when I pop in the tape, that it's bedtime.

I hope this helps.

Hugs.

Gonna crosspost this to my thread to 'remind' myself of another tool that works for me.

Hugs!

Quoting jethro:

My W didn't really wanting me to coach her. She didn't want me to mention her anxiety AT ALL...just wanted me to chatter away...

Same here. My "coaching" is seen as intrusive to my wife, and she sees it as me going into my "counselor mode". It seems to make her feel worse about herself.

Just time together seems to help, along with dragging her butt out of bed to watch some of her favorite videos. A good dose of "Rocky Horror Picture Show" can take her into a happy place most of the time! The only problem with that is she scares the hell out of the son and the dog when she gets up and starts doing the "Time Warp" again!

A bump for my friend.

So, one year ago this week the A and D bomb hit, KAW. Your thoughts?

jethro

No really sure Jethro, they're kinda in disarray ... more of a feeling of wading in the surf trying to avoid the undertow. So I've been trying to keep preoccupied and why I haven't added anything here in a few days. I guess I need to get myself a virtual surfboard...

'til later,
KAW

KAW..just wanted to drop in and say i am thinking about you and your wife...you have a heavy burden to carry..has your w ever tried any kind of yoga..I took a class and it is sooo relaxing...you can get books on some of the simple poses..just a thought..wish there was something magic to help you and her on this unknowing journey that you are on..
just know that we are here for you.
Sue

KAW,

I think you are doing great.

I'm sorry you are going through a rough patch. I think your wife's comment about you working so hard last year so that you don't become separated was a nice acknowledgement of your efforts.

Hugs!

Quote:

I guess I need to get myself a virtual surfboard...

Consider the virtual surfboard provided...a 10' banana board that's unsinkable, my friend.

jethro

Thanks, J ... now I'll need to learn how to ride it ...

I'll be OK, I can feel I won't get swept away with the undertow and I already feel myself heading for the shore.

I don't know if my W is being intuitive about my thoughts or what, but she made a difference this week. She's much more positive lately despite some pain (pulled her back out - the "... in sickness & in health..." part of our vows have been thoroughly been tested though out the years)

, and has returned some acts of service that she hasn't done for nearly a year.

Gotta cut this short and I gotta go on an outa town business trip tomorrow, so I won't be around much for a little while.

'til later,
KAW

(((((((((((((KAW)))))))))

Have a good trip!

I'll be thinking bout you.

Hugs.

Well the trip was postponed...

The trip was to a not so nice part of New Jersey (Newark area - hope that doesn't offend anyone here? ) so I was not looking foward to the drive, especially with the threat of the starts of yet another storm tomorrow.

... but still gotta go, have to get to bank before it closes tonight.

'til later,
KAW

Just checking in..haven't heard from you for awhile..did you end up going on your trip?
Hope your w is doing better..or at least not so many panic attacks..does she ever want to seek out other areas of help?
Acupuncture, yoga..support group..something new to try. I give you so much credit for having the strength to deal wiht this..but then marriage vows are for better or worse..in sickness and in health...wonder if too many couples forget those vows that were made..
Check in when you have time..
Sue

Well, I'm back here again.

I was beginning to wonder if it was me that was holding us back by not trying to completely let go of what occurred last year. I began to feel that by visiting this BB nearly daily, I was in a sense picking at the scab. So I decided to go on hiatus from here for a while. (I do have to admit to lurking occasionally.) It seemed to be working until last night.

I had just tucked our DD to bed and was working on cataloging my photographs on the computer, when I needed to look at a map that was in our bedroom. When I walked in there was W journaling. (As I have mentioned, she only journals when she feels her worst.) I went over and held her in my arms and she broke down into tears. I gently asked what was wrong. She said she didn't want to talk about it. I told her I was worried and concerned for her. Then she tried to brush it off. Saying she had to work some things out herself. WAW flashed across my mind! I said, that was very reminiscent of what she said last year, then I asked if this was related. She gave a short no and remained quiet. (Now thoughts of OM are running thru my head.) I asked directly, does she feel we are in touble again. See said no again, then added, "Its me. I just need some time to work some things out that's all." Que: Don't press anymore. So I let it go, but she could tell I was not comfortable with that. She kissed me a couple of times to try to make me feel better, but I told her it really didn't help. So I left the room.

At bedtime, I told her it really hurts that she still feels she can't confide in me. She replied simply, "I just don't want to talk." So that was it. This morning before we parted for work, it was tense and distant, but I kept my mouth shut and tried to play it cool.

So nine months of "piecing" and I feel like I'm right back in the hole!

The one major obstacle that always kept us from getting closer is still there. She won't talk to me about what really bothers her. I'm no closer than before to to finding my way around this one. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

Sorry I haven't posted much to other's threads. Its just I don't seem to be lost without any answers, so don't feel I could be of much help to others now. Sorry to be such a downer, but this feels like a major backslide after so much rebuilding. Are we still rebuilding now? How can we as long as the old walls remain standing?

'til later,
KAW

Just ride it out, KAW. That's all you can do.

After over two years of piecing, my W recently brought up the spectre of divorce.

She doesn't want to talk about it either, so all I did was offer to talk to her if and when she ever decides. I offered to honestly answer any questions that she might have about my feelings and intentions.

If she wants to know how I truly feel, she'll ask.

Sometimes you can rebuild together. Sometimes it's all up to you. Right now, it's all up to your W. In times like that, you have to keep your nose out of it.

Sucks, doesn't it, KAW.

Sorry, my friend. All you can do is bide your time until she invites you back into piecing.

Just be the fantastic KAW/husband/father that you are, and wait.

TTFN,

KAW - reading yours and Andy's posts just reinforces the need for me to keep at this and be patient.

Hope that all of our sitch's get on the upswing soon...

Well, KAW, I'm sorry you're back, but selfishly, I'm glad because I've always valued your advice and insights.

Out of curiousity, how would this conversation with your W have gone in the past? Is it noticibly different today than it was a year ago? I'm trying to figure out if there's a different approach you can take that would facilitate her opening up to you...change the dynamic yet again. What has happened in the past to get her to open up? For example, does it require spending an entire afternoon having fun and joking around to get her to feel comfortable enough to tell you things?

Can I assume her depression is getting the best of her because it's winter? You know, KAW, I certainly understand you wondering what she's thinking about. I think it's entirely possible she's feeling guilty about what she did as much as anything else... My W journals too when she's feeling crappy, but I'd venture to guess that much of the time it's guilt-driven.

Stay strong, my friend.

jethro

not much more I can add...

{{{KAW}}}

LL

The one major obstacle that always kept us from getting closer is still there. She won't talk to me about what really bothers her. I'm no closer than before to to finding my way around this one. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

KAW, take a step back for a second, and look at this in a different way.

Instead of thinking that she knows exactly what's bothering her, and won't tell you, assume for a minute that she's NOT sure exactly what's bothering her, and she CAN'T tell you, doesn't quite know how to put it into words?

How would looking at the situation in this perspective change what you are thinking, how you are feeling, and what you are doing? How would you approach the problem in a different way?

Just food for thought!

Andy,
It always gives me a boost to hear from you.

Quoting Andy:
Just ride it out, KAW. That's all you can do.

Sounds simple and think I can manage that. Like you say, what choice do I have ... and yeah it does suck!

I'm beginning to wonder if she will ever be comfortable enough to talk to me on this level and that hurts!!! To knew that for whatever reason, she can't share her inner most feelings & thoughts with me.

Would like to hear from ya about what's doing lately?

Bob, thanks for dropping by. Have been keeping up with your thread. Just wish I had some helpful words for ya.

Jethro, thanks for the kind words. Last night was pretty much a blast from the past. The only difference was before I not accept she would keep stuff from me and kept after her to tell me. Last night after she said she needed to work it out for herself, I stopped asking questions, but still let it be known that I was not happy with her decision. The only times she has opened up is when it is her intension to do so. I have yet to find any thing that works to influence her that she can confide in me when she feels like she can't.

Quoting Jethro:
Can I assume her depression is getting the best of her because it's winter?

A few weeks ago, I would have thought so too, but as I said the last couple of weeks, she was seem to be getting a better gasp on her attitude. (unless it was all a facade?) If it is guilt, why would it be so hard to share she feels guilty. What is so wrong with that? Wouldn't they want us to know they feel guilty as this would be reflected by us as being remorseful? ... something we would like them to share with us. I hate to say it, but what kept crossing my mind was a resurgence of feelings for OM and her feeling lost with how to deal with them.

What else is there that she would be so reluctant to let out? ... well there is that independence thing that can be rearing its head again...

Who knows, but that's the whole point of all this... Why can't she let me know?

LL, thanks for the hug. Been dropping by your place too from time to time. I can certainly feel your frustrations of late, but I sense your R is about to experience a growth spurt, perhaps to coincide with the sunshine of Spring. Just a premonition I have...don't know it I am all that accurate with those, but hang in there...and remember if it happens, you heard it here first.

'til later,
KAW

Hey JJ,
I missed you in what I just posted.

... then what were the words she was writing on paper at the time? While I tried not to pry, I couldn't help but read what I coud see...

"... just want to curl up in a ball and go away... " the word "lonely" stood out at me on the page as well!?

I will continue to try to think of a different approach? Is it keyed around a different word? Maybe about "sharing"?

'til later,
KAW

KAW.

Quote:

Wouldn't they want us to know they feel guilty as this would be reflected by us as being remorseful?

I don't think so, necessarily. I believe that many previous WASes can barely deal with their infidelity, and to talk about it dredges up even more pain. It may be that she feels badly about it and doesn't want to share her guilt with you, as it will bring you down. Have you ever told her that it helps you when she's remorseful?

jethro

KAW -

I don't think that the words you saw written would be uncommon for a person in depression to write, or to feel. "Lonely" is also very common, I think.

I think that the real key is for us to learn how to "de-personalize" all their thoughts and feelings, and go beyond assuming that it's because of us, because of our relationship, and that we can fix it. More often than not, they might just be hiding from life in general, and not from "us".

I will continue to try to think of a different approach? Is it keyed around a different word? Maybe about "sharing"?

Yup, I thinking that "sharing" may be the key word here. How often do you share your non-OR heavy thoughts and feelings with her? Have you ever? If so, how did it work?

Or do you put it off because you think she can't handle it at the time because she's in the middle of a funk? Or put it off because things are going well, and you don't want to take a chance of ruining a good run? I know that this can be one of my downfalls, and have to be careful of this.

You being the first to "share" can be a good way to teach her what you want by example. A way to show her that it can be done. The tough part can be actually figuring out how, and doing it ourselves.

More later.

well I did have a nice long post written to you but as I was finnishing it up h bumped me off line (at least I know he is at the office. ha ha)

any way the gist of what I was typing then is that though she may have the words to write in a journal they may not be clear thoughts...but simply an out pouring of many emotions that she can't express to you because she herself is not clear on them...try not to be threatend by her journalling but instead look at it as her way of trying to work through things within herself.

the statements you read could mean anything...could have reference to you and could also have absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

I really wish my other post didn't get lost...

hope I made some sense and possibly offered a little comfort.

LL

KAW..sorry you are feeling like you're at square one..only difference is you are much stronger..wiser and better able to pick yourself up and keep going then you were a year ago.
Maybe your w truly is not sure what she is feeling..and can't share with you what she's not sure herself..

You have been a piller of strength here..I have not felt..yet..like I need to take time off..I still need to come here and just journal my feelings..and to offer my support to friends who are hurting too.
Sue

KAW,

You won�t be hearing much from me. I�m mostly staying off the boards. Frankly, I don�t know what possessed me to lurk a little, but when I did, I stumbled onto your latest post and couldn�t resist butting in. You and I are very much in the same place.

How�re things with me? As I mentioned, my W brought up divorce for the first time ever. She went on to tell me that she doesn�t know how she feels about me, and also told me some of the things that she�s trying to come to terms with vis-�-vis how I wronged her.

My response was simply that I love her, and would honestly answer any questions that she might have about my feelings and intentions.

That was two weeks ago, and we haven�t spoken of it since.

Quoting KAW:
I'm beginning to wonder if she will ever be comfortable enough to talk to me on this level and that hurts!!! To knew that for whatever reason, she can't share her inner most feelings & thoughts with me.

Sorry, my friend, but maybe she never will. I have serious doubts about my own W�s abilities in that area.

But I�ve come to the conclusion that there is no way I can influence her to confide in me. I made the offer, and it�s now completely out of my hands.

Right now she doesn�t trust you enough to share her feelings. Yeah. It hurts. I know exactly how you feel, KAW. Believe me!

But you have to learn to trust her too. If you keep thinking that her feelings are a product of depression, you�re basically invalidating her feelings. If she feels that you don�t value her feelings, she�ll never tell you about them. If you were in her shoes, would you?

You have to respect her feelings, and trust her judgement before she�ll reciperocate.

Quoting KAW:
Last night after she said she needed to work it out for herself, I stopped asking questions, but still let it be known that I was not happy with her decision. The only times she has opened up is when it is her intension to do so. I have yet to find any thing that works to influence her that she can confide in me when she feels like she can't.

That�s exactly what I�m talking about. Stop looking, KAW. Just let her do what she has to do, and trust her.

Scary, but IMHO, essential.

Sorry this post isn't much of a boost, KAW, but perhaps it's the change of strategy you need.

Thanks all for the input and support. Its been really helpful.

Quoting Andy:
Just let her do what she has to do, and trust her.

Well, hopefully I have taken the first step in the right direction. I rode it out and last night at diner she said she was doing better and apoligized for putting me through that. She mentioned I looked tired. I replied I didn't get much sleep the prior night. She came back with, "I guess that was my fault". I told her it was no big deal and left it at that. She spent the rest of the evening keeping close and letting me know she wanted me around.

School closed early today. (More snow!) Got a call from W, "Please come home." Spent the afternoon and evening together. She still has an inner struggle going on, but JJ & Andy are right, I have to learn not to take it personally that she feels she has to deal with it on her own and even though I still am kept in the dark, not to let my imagination get the best of me again.

As to sharing, JJ, I do share alot with her. In fact, for the last nine months its struck me odd that as a guy, I seem to be much more expressive than my W wants.

Andy, I'm so sorry to hear that your W still hasn't been able to forgive or let go what is in the past. Honestly, I don't see how any words can say any louder what your actions of the past two years state about your feelings and intentions. I'm truly at a loss to how she can continue to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an Andy who has demonstrated so persistantly that he is no longer the Andy she turned away from. I know you have your reasons for staying away from here, but if you feel you need a sounding board, we're all ears and take care...

'til later,
KAW

KAW:

You've been so great over on my posts, thanks again
for caring!

Dropped by to see how you're doing and say hi.

It's so hard to weather not being communicated with,
isn't it? Frustrating, for sure! And the mind jumps
to awful conclusions, doesn't it?

Ya gotta talk back to the fearful worries,
while watching for hopeful, positive signs.
This is something you've helped me do so
back atcha -- keep up the good efforts, my friend!

Seems like over this W journalling incident you've
been really respectful of your W -- giving her space
is a very a loving gesture -- and she's clearly grateful, rewarding you with an invitation to move closer.

Smile. I'm proud of youse!

You're very good at helping other people "let go"
-- I guess it's because you've had so much practice?

Sending you sunshine (((( o ))))) (or a dog's nose),

BRIDGET

Quoting KAW:
Andy, I'm so sorry to hear that your W still hasn't been able to forgive or let go what is in the past. Honestly, I don't see how any words can say any louder what your actions of the past two years state about your feelings and intentions. I'm truly at a loss to how she can continue to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to an Andy who has demonstrated so persistantly that he is no longer the Andy she turned away from. I know you have your reasons for staying away from here, but if you feel you need a sounding board, we're all ears and take care...

It's quite simple, KAW.

She experiences her life through her own mind's eye. As hard as I've tried, I've done things and said things that to her perspective, are completely contrary to what I've been trying to do.

I've been trying hard. You all know that. I think W knows that too, but in her view, there are basic flaws in my attitude. Trying isn't enough.

I guess the key word in what you said is "demonstrated."

What I "demonstrated" to her was pure selfishness. In her world, nothing's changed.

I'm not saying that she lives in some alien world. All I'm saying is that how she experienced OR, like anyone else, is her experiences. Mine are quite different. Our experiences are our own.

That's what makes trusting our SOs so difficult. We're never quite sure how they view us.

You're going through this too, KAW. I'm glad that you haven't damaged your R to the same degree I have. Your W still empathizes with you (thus the apology for "putting you through that."

Well, I didn't come here to whine. I just hope you realize that as long as you have mutual empathy, there's a lot of hope.

TTFN,

Sorry Andy for not responding right away, but I wanted to give what you said some thought. Not to make light of the title to your last thread, but something is just not adding up right for me.

Quoting Andy:
What I "demonstrated" to her was pure selfishness. In her world, nothing's changed.

Are you saying that after all you have done to sincerely become a better person for yourself, for her and your children for the better part of two years has not touch her in any noticabley way? The 180's you have implemented over those years and nothing has changed according to her?

The total release of control over what happens to R, the steadfast patience of waiting and accepting whatever fate she eventually decides to choose after all this time, the support of holding the family together whenever she felt she needed to escape it all and ride in fellowship of a MF.

She believes these are the continuing acts of unforgivable selfishness on your behalf??

Andy, I'm just dumbfounded... I just don't know what else to say...

'til later,
KAW

Quoting KAW:
She believes these are the continuing acts of unforgivable selfishness on your behalf??

No, KAW. She doesn�t believe that. But you have to realize two things. Firstly, what you just described was your interpretation of what I have done. Not hers. To her mind, all of the things you described are things I should have done from the get-go. They�re things that I shouldn�t have had to change.

Secondly, there is a �new� issue which puts a cloud over our entire 23 year relationship. Please don�t ask me what it is. It�s not something I really want to discuss.

So right now, I must continue to do what I should have been doing all along and trust W to forgive me. It don�t mean nothin� that you may not think there�s anything to forgive. It don�t mean nothin� that I may not think there�s anything to forgive. The only thing that matters is that SHE thinks there�s something to forgive, and that she finds the strength to do so.

And it�s not just a matter of forgiveness. She also has to accept aspects of me that she doesn�t like. She has to learn to look at the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. All I can do to help her is not to throw the bad stuff in her face as a constant reminder.

And it goes back to what I posted to you before. I (and you too, KAW) have to trust my W�s ability to do that.

Quoting ANS:
To her mind, all of the things you described are things I should have done from the get-go. They're things that I shouldn't have had to change.

Yes, many of us have made similar mistakes, myself included. At first, we must have done most of the "right" things or they wouldn't have married us. Many of us are guilty of turning on the "auto-pilot" and when we do our behaviors will change slowly without us realizing it, then we may deny it, but everyone does this to some extent. People make mistakes, no way around that one, but the majority tragically enough never realize, admit or turn off the "auto-pilot" and if you were part of that group, I can see some foundation for your W's perception.

For those of us that have turned off the "auto-pilot", we still can't right the wrong we have done. All we can do is atone by keeping the positives going from here on out and the only tool we have to show our resolve is time. It is the best we are capable of doing and the most that can be expected of us. You're right, she can't expect you to "walk on water" or wipe the past sins away. If your W cannot accept that, then I do feel very sorry for you, for I don't see how this can be overcome until (if ever) she decides to change here POV, but I guess you had already came to conclusion in November. I guess another way of putting it is that she still has her "auto-pilot" on and no matter how much turbulance you create (at least in a positive way that would draw you closer) it won't cause her to turn it off. Although, I thought there were signs last fall that she was beginning to reconsider.

I guess so long as you see hope that it will happen, you will hang in there, but at some point it may become clear that she will not change her expectations. I hope then you will consider what is best for Andy's future.

The sad irony here is she is doing the very thing she is accusing you of ... protecting her self-interests at the cost of forsaking all else...

'til later,
KAW

All true, KAW.

I always consider what�s best for Andy. I cannot, in my particular circumstance, foresee D as something that could be in my or my W�s best interest. There are a multitude of reasons. Looking at it from a cold hard outside perspective, it is not economically feasible. Nor is it feasible in terms of family � especially considering our obligations to our autistic son.

Frankly, if she cannot learn to love me, a loveless M is the best case scenario.

I take some comfort in the fact that this is true not only for me, but for my W. I think that in the same way it forced me to make personal changes, my W may find herself having to do the same thing.

As to the irony part, I have to tell ya, KAW, that the immense stress of our life � especially considering having four children; one of whom is autistic � forces us to protect our self-interests. Once my W came to the conclusion that we couldn�t do it together, she had to do it herself. It�s sad, but not ironic.

That�s why �what�s good for Andy� isn�t my only consideration. And it may not seem like it, but �what�s right for W� isn�t her only consideration either. If it was, and in her current mindset, she probably would already have filed.

KAW,

you da man!!

hey I just realized in once again noticing your thread title...and it correlating to my "wanting to go home" bit...I have for the past several years...long before this sit...had a magnet on my fridge...a pair of ruby slippers!!

how long will it take till we find our way home? do we have to make that trek to oz? can we just click our heals three times and be home, with a new undersanding and appreciation for what we have before us??

LL

Just stopping in to say hi..and happy spring...seems like the seasons are coming and going so quick. It has been a year since things got tense..so I have survived the 4 seasons of unsureness(is that a word?)Now it is the season of new life and growth...
I like LL thoughts on going to oz or just clicking our heels..
hope things are going ok for you and your w..
Sue

There's no place like home...no place like home...

jethro

Stopping by with a coffee cake for ya.
Got time for a cup a joe?

Aw, KAW, once again have to hand
it to you, you've got DB-ing down.

I've been ruminating all week on
the wise words you posted on my thread,
letting me know I can relax a little
cuz there's been progress in my sitch,
and things ARE mending.

Some dark days ya just can't see it for yourself
and it takes a pal to point this out.

Hope things are hunky dory with you.
Hope your W has shown you some appreciation.

You're ACES!

Bridget

You folks make me blush.

Bridget,
I always seem to have time for a cup...more like 8 cups a day, at least during the work week.

Glad I can help in some small way.

LL,
Aren't we all on a trek that seems as strange as the one to Oz?

How long it takes is different for each person. I can't say that I've found my way home yet, but I do believe the means is within each of us. Once we find the answers within that we are seeking, then we will find our way home. Remember the fairy tells Dorthy she had the means to get home the whole time, but only when she was ready to go home would she be able to...

Quoting Jethro:
There's no place like home...no place like home...

That says it all...doesn't it?
To realize that you can find the happiness you seek right where you always had been the whole time, you just need to see, work for it, to want to run towards it rather than away....

Sue, thanks for dropping by. You certainly are a contender for the blue ribbon for patience. I've been anticipating for while now, in hopes of a lot of positive growth to be sparked and nurished this spring season.

In light of that, I took Thursday and Friday off from work as my W had those days off as well. It was pretty much all as I had hoped. Open the windows and enjoyed the fresh air. Worked on some outside projects. Got out and about. Spent some time down by the river, just soaking up the sun. My W still had some bad moments, a really bad headache here, a panic attack there, but instead of making the whole day bad in her eyes, they took up only part of the day as bad and the rest of the time was good. This seemed to open her eyes more to the possiblity of having a good day, inspite of a bad few hours. So things are looking up and are getting better...working ever so slowly towards making each day better than the day before.

'til later,
KAW

((((KAW)))))

Gotta love the peace found in nature.

Keep up the good work!

Hugs.

Kaw..me a blue ribbon..that is the nicest thing to say..patience is NOT my strong point, but I have been working very hard at it..even with my kids and job..this dbing stuff can open all kinds of avenues in our lives.

Glad you took a few days off, as did I..just to enjoy the trees staring to bloom, tulips are sprouting..and glad your w was able to enjoy the good parts despite the bad. If ever there was a patient h, it is you.
Ironic about the Wizard of Oz, I have always liked the movie, and h and I are in a video club and there is this one bossy guy that always picks the movie..I contain my patience to a point ..he picks strange movies, and I have found out that some of the people don't like to come because of him and how he controls the show, so I spoke up and since we are hosting it, I said I would like to do The Wizard of Oz..I had never really thought about the true meaning of the movie..I went on line and found some neat stuff..is it a favorite of your? So true about wanting so much more from life and finding it in your own backyard.
Do ya suppose h will think about that as we watch it!!!???

take care
Sue

PnT, thanks for dropping by. Sorry I hadn't had time lately for a visit, but will try soon.

Sue, actually the movie is my W's favorite. She has worn out two VHS tapes of it, so for Christmas I got it on DVD for her. I wish I knew how it would affect your H. Maybe you could mention going for a cup of coffee afterwards and discuss the meaning of the movie or what you like about it?

'til later,
KAW

Wow, I had just prepared my post and was about to paste it here, when I read this:

Quoting Jethro from lostlove's thread "trusting that it's for real.":
As our Ses are in pain, so are we...yet we choose to temporarily overlook that pain until the right time. Eventually, we do have to evaluate this pain and our life and decide what actions to take...and if we are getting what we want from our R...or if we expect to get what we want from our R.

I do believe when we get to the point where we are in Piecing that, over some time, we should expect our Ses to come around a bit...to give more to the R...and to "drive" for a while. Remaining sedate just isn't an option anymore because we've worked hard, know what it takes to make an R work, and expect the same in return.

ESP for sure?...

I had come to basically the same conclusion this morning while getting ready for work.

So with that said, I will now paste my thread finale...

===========================================================

Well, I'm ready to put my DBing skills to the test and see how well I have learned to hone them.

This weekend, I'm going to go for what I think is the final piece. Maybe then, I'll get to leave Oz?...

I'll let you all know how it works out next week...

How's that for a cliffhanging thread finale...

'til later,
KAW

We'll be tuning in...

Same KAW Time!

Same KAW Channel!

Quote:

I'll let you all know how it works out next week...

That's such a huge tease, KAW!!!

I can't wait! Hmmm...it makes me want to guess what it is...and I think I know, but I won't post it...

GOOD LUCK!

jethro

OOOO,

You just love to keep us poor cats in suspense!

Hehe.

Hugs.

That is down right mean..to dangle a candy bar and then snatch it away!!!!

Sue

So.........anything we should know!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sue

Knew I wouldn't have much time yesterday and today to post a detailed update, but will try tomorrow. Sorry, not intending to string you guys along, but have much going on right now (mostly at work).

Briefly, you know what they say about best laid plans, but I feel we still moved forward some. I'm also monitoring to see just what kind of results are going to come.

'til later,
KAW

With the two inches of snow today, that makes six consecutive months it has snowed in here in the Mid-Hudson Valley and that's no April Fool's!

OK, W's asleep, so I'll do an update. Things have been moving along pretty good. W has been making a galant effort to fight back the depression...been more upbeat and more active and we seem to be sharing most everything now in a spirit of co-operation towards putting the pieces together. She feels the weakest link now is my insecurity about her commitment to staying in M and feels they are unfounded by this time. Actually, I probably would agree if it weren't for one thing I feel is still not right. I feel in certain ways, she maybe continuing to punish me for those years of neglect. Without going into details, there were a couple of key phrases in the last couple of weeks that have rub me the wrong way..."That she has me wrapped around her pinky". Also in the spirit of co-operation I have attempted to offer help with any aspect, her offerings extend only to certain boundaries with a recent comment last week of "If you can't do it on your own, I guess you will have to do without."

Most of this came out over the weekend, however not quite to the extent I was hoping as my W had come down with a nasty cold which kept her in bed for most of the weekend, but on Sunday evening she approached me about wanting me to set up some C sessions for her.

This is something I'm very willing to do, but she made the request that she would like to go back to the counselor she was seeing last year, who is NOT a SBT and has proven not to be particulary pro-M when it comes to working out issues. When I noted my reservations about going back to her, she replied "but I feel comfortable talking only to her."

So do I honour her request to set up the insurance authorization for this counselor? The other problem is after extensive searching after discovering DR, I could not turn up a SBT in our area. So it seems I have little choice?

'til later,
KAW

Hey KAW. I'm glad to hear that you and your W are communicating well.

Quote:

So do I honour her request to set up the insurance authorization for this counselor? The other problem is after extensive searching after discovering DR, I could not turn up a SBT in our area. So it seems I have little choice?

Well, for you, this is probably a difficult issue to tackle because if you tell her you don't feel comfortable about this C, then your W is likely to point to your "insecurities?"

Is it possible for you to approach this whole thing with a fresh start? Meaning, can you tell your W that you don't feel comfortable with this C because she is not pro-M (which is contrary to what you and your W are trying to fix/improve), and suggest interviewing a different C? You know, in the name of a "new/fresh start"--new C, new R, new books, etc.? It's like I've said before, we come to a point where we can be pretty blunt about our expectations of our Rs. Your expectation here is to improve things and it seems as though this C has not helped in the past.

Did I make sense?

jethro

Yo Jethro,

Quoting Jethro:
Meaning, can you tell your W that you don't feel comfortable with this C because she is not pro-M (which is contrary to what you and your W are trying to fix/improve), and suggest interviewing a different C?

I'm not sure if you missed this...

Quoting KAW:
When I noted my reservations about going back to her, she replied "but I feel comfortable talking only to her."

To elaborate a little more, my W is very uncomfortable opening up to anyone, including several C's she has seen over the years. I had suggested perhaps going back to one of the first ones she had seen, because I had noticed such a positive turn around in her after those sessions, but she didn't like that recommendation without giving a reason. I did ask why, but she came back with "I just don't." Unfortunately, she seemed to develop a rapport with her last C in which she feels comfortable and secure enough to talk about things she wouldn't with anyone else. It would nearly be impossible for her to accomplish this with yet another stranger when she knows she rather talk to this one.

Seems like a real catch-22 even though she did try to reassure me that she will be going in order to resolve her issues in the context of staying in the M, but I just don't trust the influence the C might have over her. I guess though I really don't have a choice?

Since last year I have so wanted to give this C a copy of DR because she went along with my W's feelings at the time that it probably is in her best interest to walk away from M, but have been waiting for the appropriate time. I wonder it now would be a good time?

'til later,
KAW

Hi KAW,

You probably won�t like what I�m going to say, but please consider it.

The only 180 that�s left for you to do is to become secure in your W�s commitment to your M. In order to become secure, you have to act As-if you�re secure. This is a BIG DB challenge.

It kinda goes back to what I posted to you a coupla weeks ago. You don�t trust her to make up her own mind about things. You worry that she�ll be influenced to do the wrong thing by a bad C.

I�m not saying you don�t have anything to worry about. If she�s depressed, she could be susceptible to bad influences. But you can�t control any outside influences on her. You can only affect the influence you have on her.

It appears that you have control (via the insurance forms) over whether or not she sees this C. IMHO, you should not exercise control in this matter or any other. As hard as it is, you have to allow her to control her own destiny. Otherwise, she�ll feel controlled and manipulated by you.

It takes a leap of faith, but it�s only by setting her free that you can draw her back.

I�m not quite sure about the context of the �wrapped around her pinky� comment, but I�d go ahead and let her wrap you. It�s gonna take a long time for her to let go of her feelings of neglect. I don�t believe she�s trying to punish you, but in her mind, she�s kept score, and you have a lot of catching up to do. The only way you can catch up is to throw away your own scorecard and never look at it again.

Support her as unconditionally as you can. Hey. Nobody�s perfect, and it ain�t easy getting over those feelings of being taken advantage of, but if you don�t do it, your W won�t either.

Quote:

I'm not sure if you missed this...

I didn't miss it, KAW. I just did a poor job of prefacing what I wrote. I wasn't sure exactly what you meant about "reservations," so I was just wondering how blunt you were with how you felt, and if you really expressed your concerns. Sorry for the vagueness...I'm kind of busy today...and distracted.

Does your W feel as though this C actually helped, or is she just easy to talk to? There is a difference.

Quote:

I guess though I really don't have a choice?

Well, I suppose you could say we always have a choice. Right? Whether we exercise that choice is another matter. Perhaps it's better to act as-if in this scenario rather than really push the issue, as it only highlights your "insecurities," as they are perceived by her? I understand your concern: old C...old patterns...history repeated... But, I imagine your W is in a different place today than she was the last time she went to see this C?

Quote:

Since last year I have so wanted to give this C a copy of DR because she went along with my W's feelings at the time that it probably is in her best interest to walk away from M, but have been waiting for the appropriate time.

Is this what you expressed to your W? I guess I'm wondering if you said, "W, I'm not comfortable with you going to this C because she told you that it was likely in your best interest to walk away from M. We are now working on things and I feel you may benefit from seeing someone who understands how to make a M work given the particular dynamics of our situation (A, depression, anxiety, etc.)." You know, something like that...

Hope I cleared that up.

jethro

Thanks Andy & Jethro for the input. It did help alot.

Andy, somehow I kinda expected you would say something along those lines, it validated pretty much the direction I felt I should take, now to figure out how to put it into practice. You know, for nine months now, when I come home from work every day, I've still have the impulse to look at her finger to see if her wedding ring is still there ...

Go figure?!...

To start with, I got the insurance authorization yesterday and gave the info so she can make the appointment.

Jethro, as I had said she has a nasty cold, so we didn't quite get into it as much as I wanted to, but her cold is still running its coarse, so I suspect she will make her appointment for sometime next week. This will hopefully allow for some oppurtunity of talk about it some more...
I do want to ask her what it is she is looking for in these sessions? Does she just need a sounding board, validation or is she seeking advise or solutions?

'til later,
KAW

Ah! Putting into practice what you know (intellectually) you have to do.

The age old problem.

Heck! For all I know, my W is trying to figure out how she can D me.

Am I serenely letting it all happen? Yeah. Kinda. I don't know what happened to me, but the whole idea - which would formerly have me in a panic - doesn't.

Oh yeah. It bothers me. I think about it all the time. But I don't know why it hasn't put me in a funk.

I guess my point is that ya just do what ya have to do, KAW.

Not sure if I'd ask to talk about her counseling. It's still kinda like prying, and you may not like what you hear anyway.

The thing is, KAW. If her C tells her stuff that you disagree with, you'll feel even more insecure, and you'll convey the impression to your W that you're still trying to control her feelings.

Talking things out is good. Talking things out while your W hasn't figured things out is bad.

Not sure if I'm making sense, KAW. What I'm trying to get at is that if you discuss something that her C has said - and particularly if it's something you disagree with - when she's still trying to figure out if she agrees with her C or not, you could push the balance in the wrong direction.

Glad to hear about your communication with your w, and happy she wants to go to c..I agree with Andy..you can't control who she goes to..and I don't think I would ask her what is being discussed..but you could try to get her to talk about the visits, knowing if she holds back then you need to back off. Does she agree with you that this c is not too marriage oriented? It is sad to think that a trained c would not try to save marriages..but they must be out there..hope you have a great week.

Sue

Quoting hoping:
It is sad to think that a trained c would not try to save marriages..but they must be out there..hope you have a great week.

The problem is that just because someone is a trained C, doesn�t mean they�re trained in marriage/couples counseling. Counseling has evolved but unfortunately, most counselors are geared towards individual counseling. The emphasis is on how a relationship serves the individual. Even more unfortunate is the attitude that still seems to be prevalent that if a relationship doesn�t serve you, you should get out of it.

If you have Adobe Acrobat reader, have a look at this:

http://fsos.che.umn.edu/doherty/pdf/hazard%20article.PDF

But as scary as all of this might be, I stick to my guns about letting your SO decide. You have to give him/her credit for some intelligence, and if you work on your side of the relationship, it takes ammo away from the anti-M arsenal. And I think that even an untrained C who isn�t exactly pro-M will have a more balanced view than if your W starts venting to friends and relatives.

Hope you have a great week too KAW.

Hi Sue,
It was never my intention to ask about what she will talk about in C. I do respect she wants to work on her issue and its her choice on whether or not to share them with me or someone else. In general, I was wondering if she would tell what she hopes to get out of these sessions. Is she looking for advise, solutions, just somebody to only listen, what?

Quoting Andy:
Even more unfortunate is the attitude that still seems to be prevalent that if a relationship doesn�t serve you, you should get out of it.

Yep, that hit the nail on the head here!!!

Nothing about working towards changing the R ... cut your loses and run. Sorry, I have a very negative bias against CSW's. At the same time, mine was trying to convince me to preceed with legal actions against W in order not to get burned. When I realized C wasn't going to help me towards trying to save my M, I stopped going and started seaching for self-help. That's when I learned about Michelle's book.

Well if this weekend continues going like yesterday, I'll have a very good weekend ... lotsa cuddles, that is ... between the sneezes and sniffles.

'til later,
KAW

KAW...what up? I see you combing the BB...

jethro

Hey Jethro ... thanks for the bump. Not much to report. W is recovery from cold, so I been trying to help out a little more while she doesn't feel so good. Trying to ignore that barometer so I can keep upbeat and it seems to be working. At the same time, I keeping an eye to see if there are changes in the winds as a result of last week's discusions. There's been some, so that helps validate some of my expressed concerns ... so it seems we both working now to find the balance ... so far ... so good ...

'til later,
KAW

Good to hear. What's the status of the C?

I like your barometer analogy. It's kind of like when the barometric pressure swings one way, we put on extra layers for protection, but when it swings the other way, we put on our swimsuits!

jethro

Nothing new yet. I haven't seen anything on the calendar and she hasn't mentioned anything further. I think she's waiting until she gets her head cleared first ... from the cold that is.

'til later,
KAW

Hi, KAW.

Thanks for checking in on me.
I'm not happy to be over on "we're separated"
so I'm coming back home to "we're piecing"
for some hopefulness.

Your sitch sounds VERY hopeful.
Cuddles, sharing, reassurances -- wow!

I think we can ALL use what Andy suggests.
Let go, trust them, give them the benefit
of the doubt.

But geez, it's like jumping off a cliff.

Got wings?

Some days yes.
Some days no.

Thanks for being here. Sending you
western sunlight to melt the snow.

Love,

Bridget

Love to KAW on a spring day.

Hope things are going well for you.
Thank you for all your kindness
to me and others on the board.

Your words are music to my ears.

Hope the universe is paying you back
with ... pizza ... prizes ... puppies!

Bridget

Well, the board is kinda slow today, so I guess I'll do an update of sorts.

Bridget, thanks for the visits and the well wishes. Anytime you're in the neighborhood, feel free to drop in, always glad to have ya and I keep a warm pot of coffee on at all times...

Things are going well. In June, it will be a year since we started "trying" to piece our M together. Recently, it has been very clear that we both want to stay in this M, but we both still have fears of ghosts of years past creeping back, fear of old patterns returning ... not that they are now, but the fear is still there and it can get uncomfortable.

For me, this fear is the fuel I use to continue to seek to keep the positives going that maintain we continue to draw closer together, but I wonder if that is the proper source to substain my motivation. How can one be so fearful, yet achieve peace of mind that all is and will be well?

Too deep? Well, I probably should journal here what I had already mentioned on Jethro's thread as it is an important discovery towards what works towards drawing us closer together ... How to go about "asking for what you want".

Don't ask for what you want directly (as in, "If you would do...) , for it will be preceived as an expectation for them to deliver upon, whether they want to or not. A mechanism of pressure, that can be preceived as control / trapping, which can lead to feelings of guilt or anger ... frustration for not being recognized / appreciated for what they feel is their way of giving ... and of coarse, this impact us in a negative way as well, as we don't receive validation for something we have asked for.

Instead, express what you want as choice they are free to make of their own accord - "if I received A or B, this is how I would feel".

Utterly summed it up nicely, so I will use his words:

"Give them the information they need to make their own decisions without having to mindread."

I'll cut it off here as I don't want to get to long-winded here.

'til later,
KAW

Hey KAW. Just popping in to say thanks again for coming by my "house." As always, I appreciate the visits.

I'm ever so glad to hear you and your W are continuing on the Piecing path...

jethro

KAw..that is great that you at least know that you and your wife want to make your m work...that gives you the foundation to apply all that you learned...I have read so many different things..come here for advice...searched my soul and heart...asking God for help and strength..I feel like I am becoming a new person..not changing who I really am..but understanding what it takes to have a meaningful marriage...giving your partner freedom to have friends outside of the m..I can't say the past 24 years have been unhappy at all..but there is so much more to a m then either one of us realize.
Keep doing what you are...you have surely helped me to step back at times...and be patient.

Sue

KAW:

Hope your day is going well. Thanks for dropping
by with cinammon rolls over at my place.

(Yum, with icing!)

Can you tell I'm getting my appetite back
after starving myself silly over my ruined marriage?
Hee hee.

I realllllllly like when you ponder and suggest
ideas. You are good at it. More more more!

Yes, journal! You really help a lot of people
when you share your (heavy) thoughts.

That chapter in DR about "ask for what you want"
was never in the scheme for me, for us. We weren't
speaking, he was out there, and when he came home,
he didn't re-commit. My needs were not in the picture.

The only way I'm getting them met is taking
care of them myself.

I'm no longer bitter about that. It's my
responsibility, and it's can become a pleasure,
I think (now that I permitted myself to buy
that cherry-colored guitar).

But if we were to work on our M again, meeting
my needs would be part of the equation. Just
how to do it? Your ponderings are apt, and valid.

What are you doing currently to get your needs met?

Here's the list of needs I copied from somewhere
and organized in priority order for me. How would
you organize it for you? Would your W's priorities
be different?

I'm trying to meet these needs without my H now.
I probably got too dependent on him to meet them
for me over the years, anyway. Maybe we all do
in our marriages, especially if we're together
a long time. It can break you if your needs aren't
met -- a main cause of marital distress, as we know.

Affection
Honesty and openness
Conversation
Admiration
Sexual fulfillment
Domestic support
Recreational companionship
Physical attractiveness
Family support
Financial support

Thinking of you, will play you
a melody.

Your pal Bridget

For the second time this week, I find myself posting to another thread something that is meaningful to myself, so I'm going to stick here to keep my thoughts collected. Maybe my next thread will end up being a compiling of my posts to others...

Quoting KAW:
I finally starting to understand what Michelle means by "Time is on your side." Not only does it take time for the WAS to reallize the M can work and turns back, but it takes time for us to be convinced M can work too. Its just that they go through it first. Yes, we decided to struggle to save our M, but that is not the same as knowing it will work. Our efforts to save our M, shows the WAS it can work, so they come back, but we still have not seen such efforts from their behalf so we start having doubts as to whether it can work. The roles are reversed in a way and as long as it took for our WAS to come back ... its fair to say it will take that long for both of us to get back in sync again in terms of feeling good and comfortable in M.

When you start to take note that the 180's in their actions are real and here to stay, that's when we will know this is all working!!!

Hope all have a Happy Easter and enjoy the weekend...

'til later,
KAW

KAW...you always bring a smile to my face when I read your uplifting posts.Maybe you should publish all your great ideas, thoughts, advice!! You are able to sort through and write in words what so many of us struggle with...and in a caring and thoughful way...Thanks...

Sue

Hello, KAW, got time for a chat?

Been missing you, whassup?

I begin to feel bad -- did my last
post feel like a "lecture" to you?
I certainly don't feel qualified
to lecture you -- you da master!

I hope you are having a happy sunny
spring and that your break from the bb
means lots of sharing with your W.

Thinking of you and sending love.

I agree with Hoping -- KAW's Words
of Wisdom would be a best-seller.
Please autograph my copy...

Bouquets your way,

Bridget

Just checking in to say hi and thinking about you and your wife..hope she is doing ok..thanks for your visits!

Sue

Bridget & Sue ... geesh, you gals make me blush.

Bridget, my absence had nothing to do with what you had posted. Just been busy livin' life. Lurking a bit here, but haven't had much to add, so I've been poking around some in Newcomers. April has been great so far. Been getting a lot of what I want without having to ask.

Sue, thanks for asking about the W. Overall, she's doing better. Now that spring is here, she's been much more active, so we've been doing lotsa stuff together. Panic attacks have nearly subsided. Unfortunately, she had developed a sharp pain in her right foot. Doctor has ruled out bone facture and joint inflamation. Now it looking to be related to her diabetes.

Last week she had the week off from work. Two of the days, she requested that I stay home with her. It didn't take much convince for me to call into work.

The weather finally got nice enough to have the first seasonal toss of the frisbee with D9. After a bit, W came outside and said she wanted to go for a walk with me ... first time in two years.

She held onto my arm the whole time.

In the later part of the week she told me she made an appointment with C for Saturday. She made the comment that she hoped I wouldn't get freaked out and did ask if I'm alright with it. I put a smile on my face to show her I wasn't gona freak out. I reminded her I was initially concerned about the past stance the C has taken towards M, but decided to take Andy's approach and told her I trust her to work out her issues with whoever's help she chooses yet within the confines of wanting to stay in M.

Well since Saturday, I have noticed a shift in her mannerism. Coincidence? Who knows, but I been just sitting back and watching to see if this is just temporary. She is much more low-keyed in her interaction. Has been a little more quiet, has backed off most of her initiations of affection. Has mentioned she feels kinda off these last couple of days and has a sense of laziness. Has gone to bed early the last couple of nights. Not sure what to make of it? Is it related to C session? ... or the start of the blues again? ... or just a temporary setback? Not much to do now but wait and see. In the meantime, there's lots to keep me busy. Yard work (regrading the front yard some & reseeding the lawn), getting my sport truck all spit & polish inside & out, not to mention some more tossing the frisbee ... even a couple of indoor projects for those rainy days.

'til later,
KAW

Hey KAW.

Quote:

Well since Saturday, I have noticed a shift in her mannerism.

Did you ask her how her C session went? I mean, if she's uncomfortable, I suppose you don't have to pry, but as her H, you can ask simply out of concern for her wellbeing...you know? I mean, if my W went to a C, I'd ask how it went. Just wondering...

I have kind of been getting the same treatment from my W. Some days she seems pretty together and other days, quite distant. I hate those distant days, as they are a reminder of the past; however, they, like us, have both good and bad days, I suppose. Also, I imagine they have more "off" days, as they were the ones who went off of the deep end and have to contend with those feelings.

Too bad you don't live closer, KAW, 'cuz I'd help you out with the seeding and you could help me cut back all of our ficus trees!

Take care.

jethro

No Jethro, I didn't ask. I had already taken the stance that if she wanted to share with me anything about C, she would volunteer and that my inquiry would most likely be preceived as being "insecure" or "freaking out" about it. I'm quite OK with her going to C and feel its more important to get that message across. What's bothering me is the "aftermath" which actually started Sunday and continued up to the present. Don't get me wrong, its all relative. At one point this would have been the norm, compared to more recent action, it noticably more low-key and she may not even be aware of it, so based on past experience, it doesn't work to bring it up as she get defensive about it which then festers into resentment. So for now I will ride it out to see if its just a phase. If it persists, then I will need to find a different angle to approach it. Nothing new with that...

Cutting treees down? ... to bad we couldn't transplant some, even tho I don't know what a ficus tree is. All I had in my yard when we first moved here was a cluster of birches. With each passing winter, there would be one less that survived the season until all were gone a couple of years ago...not a very hardy tree...so now we have any shade in the summer.

'til later,
KAW

Hi old friend. Just caught up on your sitch. Well, as you know I'm not in any position to offer advice but I did want to say that I'm keeping an eye on you and in my prayers. Thanks, you're the best.

bb

Hey KAW:

Just wanted to say to you outside of my own thread. Hope all is going well for you. I've been trying to pass on some of your wisdom that i have reaped from your visits. Thanks for all of your help.

bb