Well, the roller coaster ride has brought me to my 5th thread.
I started posting my story in newcomers on
Andy's Story which describes my struggles to break out of the rut by becoming the person, husband and father that I thought I was.
I thought I was doing great, only to discover that I hadn’t accomplished anything. So, I started freaking out in
We don't know how the future will turn out.
So, it was back to the old chalkboard in
Bringing the Walls Down with a Teaspoon.
I made a lot of headway there, but realized that my efforts were still being misinterpreted. I was still
Struggling with Perceptions.
The latest development was that after a 3-month hiatus, we decided that it was time to be more direct. We had another OR talk. Then another. As usual (for me), this brought out wild emotional swings as I tried to understand W’s perception and make her understand mine.
She gave me a litany of actions (mine) that have consequences (her word) today. She insists that she doesn’t resent these things or blame me for our current sit, but is only trying to make me understand how we got to where we are.
She has the perception that I have unresolved issues which she can’t identify, but that I need to resolve.
However, we both agree that we’ve stopped the adversarial posturing that we engaged in previously. We both feel like we’re on the same team, and as such, we should keep the lines of communications open.
We don’t agree whether or not we can bury the past. I think we must. I’ll have to convince her somehow.
Andy
Burying the past. Well, I don't know how to do that. In my sit, i am trying to get my W to think about the past,and all the good times we have had. But, then again, I'm trying to get her to see that the bad times really weren't so bad. And they weren't.
She says that she can't remember the good times, adn that she knows there haven't been hardly any bad times. When we went to the C together, he told me that W has said that I am a remarkable man, and that any woman would want me in their life. She can't figure out why she doesn't want me to be intament with her. She has a lot of things to look at in her life that led to this point, and she is definitly looking now.
I haven't read up on all your threads yet, trying to do a little everyday. d2
Hi d2,
When I say burying the past, of course, I’m talking about the bad stuff. I guess I’m taking that slant on it because my W is currently trying to make me aware of all of the krap I laid on her. I can’t make her bury it. That has to come from her. On the other hand, there’s not much I can do to make her think about the good times either.
I think that she felt fortunate when people did like your C. There were people who told her that I was remarkable, too. At some point, she took up with some male-bashers, who showed her the error of her ways. I also went through a depression, which confirmed this view and turned some of my supporters into detractors.
I’m not, nor have I ever been perfect. I’ve come to realize that I’ve made waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many mistakes. I’ve 180’d all over the place and W has noticed. Though she can’t admit it, she just can’t leave the pre-180 days behind. Nor can she see the positives of the pre-180 days.
Actions speak louder than words. I’ve changed my actions and they’ve been noticed. I feel it’s now time to augment the actions with words.
We’ve progressed to the point where we can discuss things. She wants to discuss things.
We’ve just forgotten how to do that.
Andy
ANS,
please don't take this as my being rude, but I'm wondering if maybe you'd be happier with your R if you didn't analyze everything quite so much.
What do you think? Please don't take this as a critisism as I tend to do this myself. I think one can drive oneself crazy trying to figure out what is going on in their spouse's mind. My H has no clue himself, so why should I drive myself crazy? Maybe this doesn't apply in your case.Just a thought...Hope I didn't offend you.
rayanne
Bury it? Maybe! How about starting by letting it go. I can atest that it's not always easy. Those nights when I lay awake in bed, sometimes, the past creeps back in.
I'm not sure if there is alot of benefit to discussing it with W unless she wants to vent about it. You can practice active listening without getting sucked in.
I agree with Rayanne. Ya gotta let go and stop thinkin too much. This gets easier as things improve in your R. Force yourself for now.
You are absolutely right. W must learn to let go on her own. All you can do is set the loving example.
K
rayanne, Kent.
Thanks for your opinions.
I can easily let go of the past. I really wish W could.
She says she can't return my affection. The past is blocking it.
It's not really a matter of me overanalyzing. It's W who gives these reasons. I'd only like to forget the whole thing and move on.
I know you've told me to let W do her thing, and I do mine, Kent. I am doing that for the most part.
But W wants to work together with me. We do for a lot of things.
She does her thing. I do my thing. But, we need to find ways of being a couple again.
That's all that's missing.
Andy
I'm in a similar boat. However, I view it a little different. W and I do not get alot of time togather. The time we do get I choose to spend having fun and offering affection. W is not in a position to return in same. For now, I choose to appreciate the fact that she tries. Her mind is so busy with trying to define her own sense of identity. W is back in school at night and has started a gardening business. She works two part time jobs as well as taking care of business at home.
If your W really wants to pursue OR talks, why not find yourself a good C to faciitate things and keep a positive direction. I would also recommend one of Micheles KLA seminars (getaway weekend) and/or Retrovaille. If your gonna talk OR, keep it focused on the future.
I know all about the waiting game my friend. Been at it Since Oct of 2000. You survive by finding joy in other places. It does not mean you pull away from W. It only means you take care of yourself.
I'm tryin to talk my brother into another fishin trip to Park City in the Spring. I hope to be walking by then and I can already feel the trout hittin my fly. This is what I call takin care of me. I am also planning to build that rose garden this spring. The one I always put off to spend the $ on higher priorities. This is the year my friend.
Start small buddy. Doing stuff for you will feel strange at first.
K
Kent,
Yeah. We’re in a similar boat.
quote:
Originally posted by KentS 08-15-2001 08:09 PM on Andy's Story:
Are you my brother-in-law?
Our W's could be sisters. I had similar experience after 7 years of M. I ended up in the same hole you did.
But though our paths have been different, I don’t think our views are as different as may appear in my posts. I do choose to spend my time with W having fun and offering affection. And, if one thing has changed, it’s that W has fun with me.
That leaves affection.
I offer it. She rejects it. Why? Well, my W considers the past 10 years of our 22+ year relationship to have been on my terms and my terms alone, and as the title of my thread implies, I think that that aspect of our past has to be buried. I cannot bury it for her. Only she can do that.
quote:
Originally posted by KentS:
I know all about the waiting game my friend. Been at it Since Oct of 2000. You survive by finding joy in other places. It does not mean you pull away from W. It only means you take care of yourself.
Funny. I’ve been at it since Oct of 2000, too. Of course, I wasn’t doing a very good job of it since that’s when my depression started, but even before I discovered DB, I found out that I couldn’t push things. Also, since I was depressed, I couldn’t find joy in anything. But, that’s changed too. I do take care of myself. If I didn’t, then I most certainly wouldn’t be posting in the piecing forum!
So, the waiting game continues. The most recent development is that W has indicated that she considers us to be on the same team. She says she’s open to suggestions, and wants to keep the lines of communications open.
What I have to figure out is how to make my needs known to her w/o looking like I’m trying to get OR back on my terms.
The waiting game doesn’t finish with a siren or a referee’s whistle. It has to fade out, along with the bad memories of that past.
Andy
I hope I finally have something to offer you, Andy. Gary Chapman wrote "The Five Languages of Love". It's an easy read and has quite a few words of practical advice. Dr. Harley's "10 emotional needs" is similar but not quite the approach my H and I need. Please look at it and I hope it will help you figure out how to make your wife feel loved enough that she can 'get past her hold on the past'.
I can't seem to shake the cobwebs I'm feeling from our trip to Florida. I need coffee and chocolate and sugar and my pillow. I missed our waterbed so-o-o-o-o much. I guess I'll level out in a day or so.
Good luck in your communicating in her love language!!!!!!!!!!
Hi guys...finally back...it finally got me - and how. Family has been sick for darn near 3 weeks, thought I'd been spared....anyway -
Been thinking about your OR talks Andy, and I dunno if it's just me or if anyone else noticed that it sounded a whole lot like the last one y'all had....and it sure sounds like she's still blaming you and even tho she says she does not resent you, I beg to differ.
*************************************
"She gave me a litany of actions (mine) that have consequences (her word) today. She insists that she doesn’t resent these things or blame me for our current sit, but is only trying to make me understand how we got to where we are.
She has the perception that I have unresolved issues which she can’t identify, but that I need to resolve."
*************************************
She keeps bringing up the same things...and I know you will say "rightly so", but I also know you have to agree that at some point, she needs to get over it. (OMG, did I just say that?-if that isn't like the pot calling the kettle black, eh Kent??!!) I ALSO know that you know that you cannot do it for her. No one can.
I hate to say this, but does your W know just how lucky she is? To have you, I mean. I know it has not always been a picnic with you - and some times it downright SUCKED...but here's the thing....YOU DID NOT CHEAT ON HER. You may have ignored, pulled away from, resented, made her feel useless and not needed....but, at least IMHO, I feel that those are not nearly as bad as broken vows, your spouse having sex with another, or your spouse telling another person 'ILY', and etc. etc.
I know it is in no way my 'job' or even my business to sound as if I'm belittling how your W. I do not mean to and I am sure she is more than justified in how she feels, as you have attested to many times, but I just hope she knows what she has, and could have....before she no longer has it.
To that end, I give you credit Andy. Credit for being faithful and not bailing out, I am also sorry if I sound cynical here, but you are a rare breed (and you Kent). Sure, the grass is always greener, I know. I know there are a lot of people who would trade what I've been through (A) with what they've been through (abuse...).
Just wanted to get that out there.
L
p.s. btw guys, I also know that you are not perfect either....didn't mean to make it sound as if you were blameless, cause I know (all too well-just by looking at myself) that you are not.
Hi, Andy,
I agree with Me2. Your wife is very lucky. You said before that looking for affection outside of your marriage or even threatening it is out of the question for you. I thought it was for my H, too. I would have bet my life on it. Now my life is forever changed. The pain will always be there on some level. I know we will make it, we are making it, but the A will always be there to some degree no matter how hard we try to push it away.
No matter what I did to contribute to the failure of our M (and his A did mean our M was a failure at that time), it is nothing compared to cheating! All of the other stuff could have been worked out, was being worked out. Breaking vows, lies, deception, betrayal are never truely "gotten over." We just learn how to live with it.
Heads up, Andy. You're a good man, not perfect, but certainly a good man.
Matilda
Thanks Everyone,
lily… I had a look around, and couldn’t find the books locally. Will keep looking.
But right now, I think it’s time for me to let go. It’s hard for me to say it because my W has never said the words. She’s never said she doesn’t love me. On the contrary, she’s always – even at the worst of times – said that she does.
But her behavior contradicts this. I think she wants to get the love back, but only by passively waiting for it to return. I can’t fight it anymore. It’s time to admit that – at least for the time being – this is as good as it gets.
In her v-day card, she wrote, “I am sorry I hurt you. In spite of everything you are still by best friend.”
I guess that’s it. This morning, I made peace with this. Now, I’m a little sad, but I can tell that I’ll regain the peace.
I was once told by an aquantance whose son has cerebral palsy ( see
So... you think YOU have problems? ) that life is not about being happy. It’s about finding peace.
I’m at peace now. My W is my best friend, and she says I’m hers.
She’s right that I have to live with the consequences of my actions. I’ve been working for quite some time now, at reversing these consequences by reversing my behavior, but not nearly as long as I’ve been doing the destructive behaviors.
My #2d, at the ripe old age of 5 once said, “Ca, c'est comme ça, parce-ce que c'est comme ça. C'est tout”
Translation: “That is like that because that’s the way it is. That’s all”
Hey No Fair Matilda....
You were reading my mind (again) when you wrote that last reply...weren't you....
That's it. EXACTLY.
Hey Andy-that kid of yours is pretty darn smart, you know?
And you are right too; finding peace in what you have is the key. Not living in the past or hoping for things you may never have. The struggle here, for me, is that although I may make 'peace' with things the way they are, I will always on some level wish that they could be the way they were before the A (when I thought, as Matilda said-I would have bet my life on H's fidelity)....which means I have NOT really REALLY made 'peace'...huh.
Anyway....I want to say what Matilda said....
L
Peace is kinda elusive, and transitory, Me2. I guess the trick is to have it as much of it as possible.
C'est la vie.
ANS,
I absolutely agree with the suggestion that you read "The Five Love Languages"! I was actually thinking about that one day while I was reading your thread, but for some reason was thinking that you had read it. I got my copy from amazon.com. I found it extremely enlightening!
I would be willing to loan my copy out if you want, but first I would have to get it back from another DBer. Let me know if you'd like me to do that, okay?
I hope I didn't hurt your feelings the other day while putting my 2 cents worth in. That sure wasn't my intent!
It sounds like your W wants things to be better between you two. That's definitely a start.
rayanne
Hi gals,
I really appreciate your support and advice. Thank you so much!
And rayanne, you couldn’t possibly hurt my feelings. A friend who gives her honest opinion is not being hurtful. Besides, you’re not the first one to accuse me of being over-anylitical
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
I guess that I analyze things because I used to brush off my W’s complaints. Many of her complaints weren’t valid, and instead of “analyzing” them, I lumped them all together, and dismissed them.
So, now that I’m listening, I take everything she says seriously. Some of her complaints are still valid, some aren’t, but I always try to do something about them. If she has a valid complaint, then I try to 180. If they aren’t valid, then I try to find ways of changing my behavior so that she won’t perceive it the same way. Just trying to change my image.
The reason I haven’t ordered the book is that if W saw it, she would think I’m trying to find ways to change her. She tried the book route on me, and I didn’t bite. I don’t want her to think I’m trying to manipulate her.
But, you’re right rayanne. W does want to make things better.
She has no sexual feelings for me, and I see no evidence of affection. She told me that she’s trying not to “lead me on.” She made a big effort to choose a neutral v-day card for that reason. That hurt so much! She told me that the reason she hurt me on v-day is so that the next one will be better.
I hope so, too.
Andy
Hi Andy:
Betcha thought I'd died or something!
I've been really busy at work. Had to move all the furniture, etc. out of my office last Friday so new furniture could be moved in on Tuesday. Since that day I've been moving all my stuff back in, putting it away, trying to remember where I put it, etc. My computer was in a heap on the floor for about 5 days.
Anyway, I just caught up on your thread. I'm trying to find peace right now as well. I can't and won't continue to allow this drama to affect every aspect of my life every minute of every day. Stress is a real killer.
If you figure out how to gain that peace we're all looking for, please let me know?
Here you are Andy! I wondered what happened to you. I hopped over here to catch on to some people that have gotten back together after being separated to ask what they did while they were where I am now. He's still gone after 4 months.
ME-trying still to DETACH. Some days good, some days, impossible. I still have a problem not contacting him, waiting on him. It's called fear.
Fear that he won't, but I am getting better-I'm going for longer periods of times w/o contacting him. When we are together I am learning to shut up and listen to what ever it is he has to say no matter how ludicrous it is-and that is no easy feat. SO.....for all you that were separated and wondering if you were EVER going to get your S to come home, please tell me, in your opinion what was it you did or did not do that was most instumental in getting your S to reconsider and give your R another try?? RACHAEL
andy she actually gave you a card. . . . . . . .
How many times in the past would we zip into a card store and buy one that fit the Holiday and not worry about the message inside the card? I had a hard time at Christmas and V Day finding cards that didsn't infer to much yet had a touch of my perspective on R (PMA). The one card my H bought was (he says) thrown in the trash 'cause he didn't "feel" the emotional sentiment of the card.
Appreciate that your W took the time to look at the cards. She bought it. She gave it to you.
This is good.
Andy, I don't know how long you've been reading my posts. At some point, when I'd read enough of the R books, I realized that I had been a potential WAW. Yeah, me.
I was stressed to the max, tired to the max, physically ill, and my H conflicted w me at every emotional turn. Two summers ago he hurt me to the core of my being and I emotionally shut-down. I was just going to be the mother of the children and be the wife who worked her butt off to keep us financially well-off and not get in her H's way. Unlike you, my H had stuffed years of anger and his pride wasn't about to let him try(care) to fix our M. If I hadn't shut down, H wouldn't have stepped out of our M until S graduated then he would have left. Because of the way things went H wanted the D two years early. I think that he figured that he was going to hurt me for hurting him (my withdrawal).He's the one who trashed the marriage but I'm the one who gave up first. I have to trust me to trust him so he can trust me.
Andy, sometimes you just gotta analyse things.
I've been able to accept my responsibility in our current situation because I did my mental/emotional research.
Other times, you just gotta duct tape your thought processes and go with the flow.
Hang in there and build the trust!!!
Thanks, lily.
You’re right about the card. She’s trying. I know that. I don’t think we need to build the trust anymore, though. I think it’s there. Of course, it has to be maintained.
Like I posted before, the only thing that seems to be missing is the affection. And, I have to say it. The sex.
W is trying to make things easier for me by “not leading me on..” She says she’s trying not to encourage me. It’s very discouraging. She withdraws from me when I attempt physical contact. She wears the most horrible sexless flannel PJs and changes into them in the bathroom. She avoids anything that could be construed as flirting
It doesn’t make it easier. It’s just a constant reminder of what’s missing.
I recently asked her if she wants to stop any physical contact (cuddling, etc.), or just sex. She said she never asked for either to stop.
She once told me that she totally lost her libido, and that she didn’t miss it. On another occasion, she told me that she was as surprised as I was that her libido is gone. I think the spate of criticism that’s been coming out of our OR talks are not intended to cut me down, but rather to try to make sense out of this, and perhaps to preempt any attempts by me to blame her.
She no longer feels pressure from me, but it’s hard to accept her lack of affection and desire for me. It’s not like I can work on this myself either. If I wanted meaningless affection or meaningless sex, I could just go out and get a $10 hooker. Or maybe an A would be more convenient. Would that be good DBing? “What have you done for yourself lately, Andy? Take care of you! Let W do her thing. You should move on.”
I don’t think so.
Andy, I can remember wearing awful things to bed and dodging H by saying stuff like I haven't showered and I want to be clean, etc. I started dressing in old stuff that really wasn't attractive. I rationalized that I was trying to save money but truth was I didn't want H getting any ideas. Why did I do this? H was not fulfilling me emotionally. I wanted his quality time and I wanted him to listen to my ideas and I wanted to have the stimulating conversations of our early years. He'd withdrawned those from me so I consciously withdrew my availability for sex. (He'd hurt me so' now I'd hurt him). I really did not want him to touch me. Bad move on my part. Then my libido took a hit as I slowly went hypothyroid. I also started gaining weight and feeling exhausted plus many other symptoms. I would advise any woman who suffers low libido to have a simple blood test done to rule out thyroid dysfunction. Once I returned to a healthy range I felt 110% different.
It has been difficult being the affection initiator/ sex initiator but somebody has to start building the bridge.
I don't know what to say that will help you. I just know that I want out of the emotional withdrawal phase of this M so I have to figure out what my H needs so that he will trust me again. Since the bomb we don't fight about prebomb stuff so I don't feel any conflict coming from H. He treats me like he would our sunday school teacher. I can approach him and not feel shut-out which frees me to do what I have to do to work in the R. As I work on us I realize H doesn't care (he told C that on a scale of 1 to 10 he's at a 7 as to his feelings of committment/passion toward me; I'd put it at a 4. Just goes to show perspectives. but---hey---he's here. I've lost my train of thought so I'll stop for now. Take care!
Lily,
Our sits sound the same, but at different stages. For me, I’d love to pass on your suggestion. In fact, I’ve considered it. W is in peri-menopause. Her Dr. subscribed HRT, and it helps somewhat. Obviously, not in the libido area. But, I can’t ask her to go back and ask. This morning, she complained about a backache that she’s had for at least a week now. I suggested she se her Dr. Her response was “Why? She’d only prescribe pills.” Imagine her reaction if I asked her to see the Dr. about libido.
For you, I’d just caution against making assumptions. You say he doesn’t care. I’m sure he’s said a lot of stuff to indicate to you that he doesn’t either. Y’know something? My W thought I didn’t care either. She’s told me about a lot of things I said, and when I heard it from her, it sounded like I never cared. But I always did care. Oh how I regret some of the things I said!
One of the things I told her was that I didn’t want to “work” on OR. Sounds pretty clear, doesn’t it? But, my point was that OR was a joy to me. Not work.
As stupid as my statement was, it stuck, and I’m stuck with it’s consequences.
Yup. Perceptions.
Have a good weekend,
Andy
Hi, Lily and Andy:
Hey, Lily, are you sure you're not me? My sitch exactly. H wasn't there for me emotionally (my perspective). He felt showing his love physically was all that mattered. For a MAN, yeah. For we women we need that emotional bond and intimacy more than the physical. We went round and round for years. He ended up thinking I didn't love him because I wasn't there for him physically; I felt I was being used because he only wanted me physically and forgot about the emotional stuff. Which, like you, all the emotional lovey-dovey stuff was there in the beginning. Anyway, I ended up rejecting him, too, and I also paid dearly.
So I've been doing pretty well in the meeting of the needs department, but now I'm starting to feel he's slipping back into his old pattern of "it's okay for me so it must be okay for you." I can't for the life of me get him to delve deep down inside and share with me is deepest feelings, fears, needs. He told the MC that he feels he can't ask me for anything right now, that he doesn't deserve to have me meet any of his needs. MC told him enough already. That's not healthy for our marriage.
I think I've really got to discuss this with him this weekend. It's getting very frustrating to be doing all the "need meeting," and getting nothing in return.
Andy,
I know you'll say forget it to this suggestion, but have you ever thought of just being a "little" more aggressive? Start with a back rub and run your fingers lightly up and down her arm. Even when I was really perturbed with H whenever he'd start just touching lightly so that it felt really good and I'd start relaxing, it would be very hard to make him stop. Also, sometimes my pride wouldn't let me "give in" enough to initiate or "let go." But if H was more persistent (and he usually was!) and took a lot of time (he's a very considerate lover), I'd end up getting into it. Just a thought! Maybe on some deeper level your W does want you to attempt to be close.
Also, DO NOT suggest W see doctor for low libedo. Bad, bad, bad. My H did that on numerous occasions and I was highly offended and angry. My reply, "Did you ever think it's YOUR problem and not mine?" (Way before DB'ing days).
Ya, know, Lily, my doc told me 4 months ago I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'm not on thyroid medication yet cause I really don't have all the symptoms (except libedo is low). I just went in for another test yesterday and we'll see if the thyroid is still functioning before I decide to start medication. With what you said about it helping your libedo, though, maybe I'll call her and have her write me a prescription right now
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
See you guys,
M
Thanks for the input, Matilda.
No. I won’t forget it. I never toss advice aside. However, I think I’ll have to shelf it for now.
I enjoy running my fingers up and down her arm. But, I have to stop myself because it tickles and irritates her. I like to take my time, too. She doesn’t. Don’t know if it’s fatigue, but whether it is sex, or just cuddling, she acts like she’s waiting to get it over with.
But, when I back off, she seems to appreciate it. I’ve backed off a little lately, and lately, she’s been lingering a little – even pulling me towards her, when I hug/kiss her. I make sure I pull away before she does. Don’t want to overstay my welcome, so to speak. But, she is trying. In view of the fact that she’s trying not to lead me on, I think this is good. I don’t think its pride that makes her hold back. It seems to be more a matter of fear that I’ll start pushing again.
I have to admit that I’m having a hard time understanding the “emotional stuff.” W used to want the physical “stuff.” By that, I mean caresses, hugs, kisses, holding hands, etc. Not just sex. I thought we were supporting each other emotionally, too. I supported her when she felt criticized by her parents, by society (for being “only” a mother – not working), I told her ILY a lot.
But, she said that I did all of this in accordance with my schedule. On my terms. It makes it kinda hard for me to reintroduce any lovey-dovey stuff because it’s what I want.
I think you’re right, Matilda. I think that deep down, she wants to be closer, but at the same time, she doesn’t want to feel used.
I also think that she’s still afraid that if she gives me an inch, I’ll think I’m a ruler.
Andy
Are men all that different than women in regards to our emotional needs? Or, do we just show it differently?
For years, I felt that my W couldn't have cared less about how I am emotionally. She never asked me. She just felt I didn't care for a relationship with her because I didn't blurt out my emotions.
Men don't blurt out emotions. Men don't use conversation to transmit emotions (although some methods of talking are emotional. Men don't hear emotions in conversations. For men (at least the ones I know) conversation is for facts, action, decisions, critiques. Emotions are to be private, for a special person that knows how hard it is to show emotions and pulls them out with love and compassion.
On the other hand, women (at least the ones I know) use conversations for emotional expression. The want to know through this emotional conversation who and how you are. Unless their is an immediate problem to be resolved, facts, action, decisions and critiques appear to be BTW to the purpose of conversation.
Emotional connection is their goal with conversation.
My dilemna is how to separate the emotions my W is telling me in conversation and ignoring the "facts, actions, decisions and critiques" she is giving me. It turns me OFF emotionally. During my "poor me" minutes, I wish she would just hold me before talking, so I can feel how she is feeling. THAT's IT: Men need to physically feel how their W is feeling to be able to emote in safety; women want us to emote before they are safe physically. Vicious circle.
It is hard, at least for me, to be patient while my W continues to physically withdraw, to find a way to emote to her that is safe for her and for me. Right now, I don't feel safe around my W and it is difficult to share anthing with her.
More to learn!
Matilda!!!!
Go to --- About.com thyroid disease. Just about the best thyroid bulletin board I've found. I don't post there anymore 'cause I tend to gravatate to this site but I do check the info.
I have a little story re thyroid dysfunction. Last year I prepped our taxes but opted to stay home and rest while H took them to our CPA. He inquired as to my absence and H mentioned my being dx as hypo. The CPA shared that his wife was hypo and asked H to give me a message. The message was "take care of your health". He then gave H some advice. . ."don't even think about divorce". This was before H crossed the line, guys!
That little thyroid is the cause of many many woes. I even went through a period of paranoia (H and both kids had mentioned this too me. I was flabergasted that they didn't see things the way I viewed them. Looking back I realize how my perception was out- of- kilter. I am so thankful that I was dx and received that vital to life hormone BEFORE H had a meltdown.
Andy, don't mention low libido. Mention her fatigue. I had extremely dry skin and achy muscles and my sciatic nerve was out of whack. There must be at least 117 symptoms related to thyroid problems. Check out the symptoms and encourage her to have the blood test. Shoot! Depression is a sympton so maybe you should have the test run yourself!!!!!!!!
My H will have his tested when he goes for that 'Now that you're 50 exam.
Thank you both for your encouraging words posted to my thread!!!
Don’t have a lot of time to post, but I just wanna say a couple of things…
Laurin,
quote:
Originally posted by Laurin:
Are men all that different than women in regards to our emotional needs? Or, do we just show it differently?
I think the answer is both, and neither. There’s no doubt that there are genetic, cultural, hormonal, and a lot of other differences between men and women. These differences predispose us to act/feel in certain ways, but in the final analysis, we’re all individuals.
I don’t think we should fall into the trap of over-generalizing, but at the same time, the generalizations help us to understand, as long as we don’t jump to conclusions that “men are like this, women are like that”.
We also have to realize that these influences (and others) are not constant. If someone feels a certain way today, it doesn’t follow that they’ll feel the same way tomorrow.
Lily,
I wouldn’t dream of bringing up low libido. We had discussed it before (when she brought it up), and she did get defensive. I don’t think I can bring up the fatigue either, though. She has lotsa reasons to be tired. Stress, lack of sleep. I guess if we ever get into a discussion of her symptoms again (which include dry skin, hot flushes, moodiness, etc.), I might be able to ask her if she shouldn’t talk to her doctor about it again. But, I have to avoid anything that would look like finger-pointing.
TTFN,
Andy
W bought a book yesterday called The Wisdom of Menopause: Creating Physical and Emotional Health and Healing During the Change. She hasn’t started it yet, but I thumbed through it, and read the preview at amazon.com.
It seems to convey the attitude that women aren’t their true selves until the perimenipausal lifting of the hormonal veil. In other words, they are conditioned into the nurturing role by hormones and societal norms. Now that these hormones are no longer obscuring their vision, their inner wisdom surfaces to show them the injustice in their lives.
I’m going to have to read the rest of this book. The first part is pretty scary (for me), but my W has a good head on her shoulders, and hopefully will see that there’s more to it than that.
We have a friend (MF from previous threads) whose W has multiple sclerosis. She’s also going through menopause, and making MF’s life miserable.
There’s always two sides to every question.
Read some more of the book. Boy! it really is one-sided. But, having said that, I do see some truth in what she says.
I think that hormones affect us all, and perhaps women more than men. Does that mean that when the hormones disappear, the "true" person emerges?
I don't think it's that simple. I think that perhaps the hormones (along with societal influences) tend to make a woman more nurturing, and even feeling guilt for not being nurturing enough. So, she buries parts of herself to better fulfil this role. When the hormones diminish, these parts surface and become more important because of all of the years of being overshadowed by the “false” self.
But, I don't think that these menopausal attributes are the only true person. That view is too one-dimensional. It seems to me that it diminishes women who are in the first half of their lives. I can’t believe that a person is in a “hormonal fog” until they reach mid-life.
Anyway, I haven’t read the whole book yet, and it appears to get a little more balanced later. It does discuss hormones – including hypothyroidism (apparently hits 26% of menopausal women).
W started reading it this morning. I mentioned that I read some of it and found it interesting.
Anyway, I know this stuff sounds over-analytical. Perhaps it is. But, I’m feeling a little more detached in my analysis. I don’t think there’s much I can do right now except to keep up what I’ve been doing.
So, in a practical sense, there’s nothing more to analyze. Intellectually, I’m still learning.
TTFN,
Andy
How dry is your W's skin? My skin started being dry about 21 years ago. I thought it was due to our moving from the south to our present, colder climate. Our D was born in Mar (one of the times when your hormones go out of kilter) and the dry skin was here by October. I would use moisturisors and Head n Shoulders. My feet have those yukky dry skin/cracks. The day the nurse drew the blood for by TD test my arm itched and I was so embarrassed by the fine powdery dry skin that sorta floated off my arm. That symptom dissapeared the third day after I started meds. No dandruff either. No more itchy back (ah-h-h-h-h). Seems like you could find some way to lead into a discussion about thyroid dysfunction.
Her peri-m could go a little easier if the thyroid were ruled out as a possible cause for her back pain. Any wierd menstrual problems? That was what finally sent me to the doc. Wish I'd gone years earlier.
Lily,
W has a lot of symptoms, and history of “female problems.” Dry skin is one, but not dandruff. I followed the thread you provided, and also looked through
Power-Surge. Any of these symptoms could be thyroid, menopause, a host of other glandular problems, or just plain stress.
I agree that she should go back to her doctor. In fact, she probably should ask for a referral to a gyno or an endocrinologist. But, I’ve recommended it before, and she resented my interference. There may come a time when I can discuss it with her, but I’m going to have to bide my time for now (sigh).
BTW, I found a discussion forum transcript with Dr. Christiane Northrup ( author of
The Wisdom of Menopause )on
Power Surge Live! With Dr. Christiane Northrup. Haven’t read it, but I will. Looks interesting.
TTFN,
Andy
[ February 27, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: ANS ]
Andy:
This book is outstanding and perhaps better than the one you are reading. Sheey is a legend. Here is the review: "New Passages" Gail Sheey
Sheehy's Passages (1976), in which she counseled thirtysomethings about the onset of midlife, went straight to the top of most best-seller lists, and her last book, The Silent Passage (1992), in which she schlepped women through menopause, did almost as well, despite the fact that females had been navigating the change of life for a millennium or so without Sheehy's help. Rapidly running out of passages, Sheehy now takes the obvious next step: edging her loyal readers, now entrenched in midlife, to the precipice and helping them face their mortality. Arguing that middle life is the "most unrevealed portion of adult life" (not once the Boomers dig in), Sheehy is here to tell you that the years from 45 to 65 are "not the stagnant, depressing downward slide we have always assumed they would be." Although she intends this book to be a "gift" to her anxious readers, it mostly fails. Before hearing about middle age's upside, we must wend our way through seemingly endless pages about women losing their spouses, men losing their jobs (to say nothing of their hair), and both men and women contracting enough diseases to make even the hardiest souls hurry in for a checkup. There is some good news. Women who make it to 65 can expect to live to 85, and if they've survived divorce or widowhood in midlife, they come to enjoy their own independence. Still, the overriding sense of this book, whether Sheehy admits it or not, is that everybody gets hit, everybody gets hurt. You don't need passage counseling to know that, and if you don't have the inner strength to endure, you might not even get to enjoy those upbeat nuggets Sheehy has gleaned from her surveys.
Good luck.
Nicole
Thanks Nicole,
Perhaps your book is better, but I'm reading the other one because W bought it (for herself). I guess I just want to be informed about what she's reading, and trying to get a handle on her feelings.
I think W is looking for the upside of meno. I don't know if either of us are ready to "wend our way through seemingly endless pages about women losing their spouses, men losing their jobs (to say nothing of their hair), and both men and women contracting enough diseases to make even the hardiest souls hurry in for a checkup." until we get to the positive stuff.
I guess we - and especially W are looking for PMA.
I guess I don't want to start obsessing over menopause either. W got very tired of being blamed for everything (her perception), and I sure don't want it to appear that it's all her fault (again!!).
Andy
Thanks for the b-day wish. Yuck, 30 years old. AHHH!
Anyway, from reading all your posts, you and your family desserve a vacation. So when are you going?
Have a great day!
It's not so bad, Nicole. I got 13 years on ya.
No vacation in sight. Don't think it would help much anyway. S#2 has a way of making family vacations into an ordeal (sigh). Sometimes it sounds like I blame everything on him, but when you get kicked out of places, it's kinda hard to take him out later.
Same goes for a vacation with W. She's so distant right now that I wouldn't enjoy it, and I doubt she would either.
TTFN,
Andy
Sorry things are not the greatest now. It is even harder with a special needs child. I find this book helped me a lot: "The Art of Happiness" by the Dali Lama. Also, Conversations with God. Both kind of put things into the lessons we learn on Earth idea. I know this is a bad time, but things will get better. Once you two make it out of this, you'll be stronger for it and for the Marriage.
Thanks Nicole,
I’ve told so many people that time is on their side, I feel like a hypocrite when I feel as low as I do today.
But, like I told you in my last post, W is very distant. Sure, we make small talk. There’s no hostility or anything. She just has no affection, and when I kiss her, she looks like she’s been fed worms.
She’s very tired lately. When she’s like that, she just wants space. Of course that’s only natural. I know that. But it seems like there’s no light at the end of the tunnel. She chalks her fatigue up to the time of year. I tend to think it’s adrenal exhaustion. If I’m right, then we’ll never get out of it.
Been reading more of W’s book. Seems like the basic premise is that perimenopause isn’t so bad unless you’re carrying emotional baggage into it. The emotional baggage is invariably caused by the H. the book also stresses that a woman has to deal with the anger against her H by following her “true” feelings. If the H can’t accept that, then maybe it’s time to end the poisonous M.
I hope W doesn’t buy all of it. I think there’s some merit to what she says, but I still can’t accept that this way of thinking is innate wisdom. I hope the tone of the book changes too. Putting the anti-male rhetoric aside, there’s a lot of good stuff in there.
I have so many hopes.
ANS,
Sounds like a lovely book.
Not too helpful to the cause, huh? ((((ANS))))
rayanne
You're always there for me when I'm down, rayanne. D'you got radar or something?????
Thanks for the cyber-hug.
No. the book doesn't sound too helpful to the cause. Like I said, though, I'm hoping it'll perk up later.
And, I'm also pinning my hopes on W's intelligence. She's not stupid enough to blindly follow a book. (she's accused me of the same with DB).
Andy
ANS,
Yep, got radar.
The book kinda sounds like male bashing to me.
Makes one wonder what the author's personal history is.
HI Andy - just checking in. Hope tomorrow is a better day for you.
FS
quote:
Originally posted by rayanne:
The book kinda sounds like male bashing to me.
Makes one wonder what the author's personal history is.
Yeah. It sounds like it. The author is divorced (happened when she "woke up." Other than the male bashing, though, there is some sense to it. I don't think W will buy the male bashing any more than she now does, though.
I've been reading some more. Still going along the same vein, but I know it gets into other things later.
An interesting thing happened yesterday. Don't know if I'm reading this correctly, but we were chatting about the book, perimenopause, etc. W said she'd like to re-establish contact with my step-mom. I'm hoping W is looking for another perspective, and some advice - either on how to "handle" me, or on how to handle peri.
In any case, my step-mom is very "liberated" and liberal minded. However, she's also very balanced in her views. She once told me that she'd gone through a "radical feminism" stage, and would be willing to discuss it with my W. I'm hoping that this discussion will come to pass.
Right now, I'm just feeling rejected and lonely. Whether it's hormones, or W's burgeoning self awareness, she just doesn't have (or at least show) any feelings for me.
TTFN,
Andy
ANS,
Probably would be good if W would talk to your mom. It would give her another female perspective.
I'm sure her discontent really has very little to do with you. That still sort of leaves you in the same place at the moment, huh? Sorry you are feeling so down! ((((ANS)))) Hope tomorrow is better!
rayanne
Hi, Andy.
I haven't been posting a lot lately. Sometimes I just don't want to think about all the negative stuff and I need a break from the constant reminders that my life is such a mess. (Now, how's that for being negative!!) Really, things are not so bad. At least H knows what a jerk he was and is trying his best to make things right. He's still as much of a mess as I am, but I'm really trying to not say anything about the A or our R. I think that's been working pretty well.
I hate to hear you sounding so down. There's not much I can say -- no words of wisdom -- to ease your pain. Just know that we're all here to lean on. That's why I keep coming back. I really need everyone's support.
Have you left yet on our business trip? Is that why you're so down?
LOL,
M
Rayanne,
Thanks for the cyber-hug.
Right now, it’s my greatest hope that W gets another female perspective. Particularly my step-mom’s. She knows me. She knows my W. She knows menopause. And, she knows relationships. She’s an amazingly wise person. But, like I said, I may be reading too much into my W’s desire to contact her. I really hope not.
It’s so difficult to determine how much of her discontent has to do with me. She tells me that she spent a lot of time crying whilst I was gone. I was gone a lot in the past 10 years. I worked very hard. If it wasn’t overtime, it was weekends (and weeknights) away with the Naval Reserve. All of this work was exhausting, so I wasn’t “there” to help around the house, or help with the kids. When we went on vacation (her parents’ cottage), I didn’t feel at home, so I retreated into computer games and books. It’s only now that I realize how much she wanted me to “be there.” At the same time, I wasn’t meeting her needs for affection. She asked for it… holding hands, a “one-minute kiss” when I got home from work, etc. I was happy to accommodate, but she sees this as giving her affection on my timetable.
I know it wasn’t as bad as the way she paints it, but this is the way she remembers the past 10 years. How can I argue otherwise?
Saturday, she was out for most of the day. I spent the time washing floors, doing dishes, etc. with S#1. These are the types of things that I never did for her, so these are the types of things that I’m trying to do more of. Sometimes, it seems like too little, too late.
And, one thing that is a big possibility is that her book is correct with respect to perimenopause heightening her sense of injustice. The book calls this wisdom. A woman who has buried her own needs because she’s been conditioned by society and hormones to be the nurturer/fixer must listen to the wisdom of her body when it rebels against this. The funny thing is that over the past 10 years, I’ve told W that she should take care of herself first, OR (and me) second, and the kids third. My reasoning was that the kids will be happier if they see their parents in a good R, and we can’t have a good R if she’s not happy.
So, yeah. I guess all of this leaves me in the same place. DBing over the past year, I’ve taken great comfort in the baby steps. Looking at the long term, I’ve come a long way. For example, yesterday, we went to a movie with MF and his W. Seems like we can only go out if it’s with them, or at least him. But next week they’re going to be out of town. W thinks that maybe we should see a movie. We could ask TF and his W. “Or”, she said, “We could go alone.”
Yes, things have improved. But, it’s not enough. We were on my timetable. Now, we’re on her timetable. I only wish I knew how long it’s going to take to establish
our timetable.
Matilda,
I know exactly what you mean. I haven’t been posting much to other threads lately. Partly because I don’t want to spread my own negativity, and partly because I don’t want to “catch” negativity from others.
Thank you very much for dropping by, despite my negative outlook. I really appreciate it.
It doesn’t look like the travel will happen. Seems like I can do most of my work from here.
On a happier note, S#1 won his first karate tournament medal. He got a silver in katas (forms). My karate is getting better, too. I was complimented by a sensei on Saturday. I don’t do tournaments, still have a long way to go. I had injured my leg, and am playing catch-up in the flexibility department. Doesn’t help to be 40-something, either
TTFN,
Andy
ANS,
Oh please don't start believing somebody else's propaganda.
I think female hormones are blamed for way too much! I'm 50, haven't gone through menopause and don't feel like me hormones have given me any false impressions of anything. Women are meant to be nurturing for crying out loud.
Not yelling at you, just stating my opinion, okay?
![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
Congratulations on both your and your son's Karate
accomplishments! Actually forty something sounds pretty good to me!
You have a good day!
rayanne
Rayanne,
I'm not so much buying into the propaganda as yearning for it. Not the part where everything's my fault, but I'm so desparate to believe that when W steps off the hormonal roller coaster, we can re-establish our R. Even if it's a completely new R.
My W is 41. She's been having the physical symptoms of menopause for perhaps 10 years. Could be something else (like thyroid), but if it's not at least partially hormonal, then it really is me.
ANS,
Something is wrong for sure, but I really doubt it is you. ((((ANS)))) I agree that hormones can play a big part in physical things, but I think sometimes they are used as an excuse for emotional things.
Thirty-one would have been awfully young for W to be going through too many hormonal changes, but it does happen sometimes.
I had a close friend that had a real problem with a hypo-thyroid condition. I'm not going to discuss her sex life, but it did have some implications. She also got very depressed and gained weight.
I think often just depression makes one not very interested in sex.
I really don't think the problem is with you, Sweetie. It hard not to take some of this stuff personally sometimes though, huh? ((((ANS))))
rayanne
rayanne,
I’m trying to keep an open mind. If it’s not me, and it’s not hormones, what’s left? My W? I tend to think it’s a little of all of them, but we all know that there’s only one of these things that I can work on.
You’re right, rayanne. It’s hard not to take it personally.
I’ve heard a lot about hyperthyroid. Some posts on this thread as well as emails from DBers. I’m also wondering if W’s perimeno is a misdiagnosis. I can’t discuss it with W since she already told me that she considers this a very personal matter.
I guess that right now, I’m pinning my hopes on the possibility that as W educates herself, she’ll consider getting a complete set of hormone tests. At the same time, I’m hoping that my efforts to become a good H and friend will help bury the hurt (real or perceived) that I inflicted on her. Finally, I hope that I’ll have the strength not to hold my hurt against her.
Andy
ANS,
I'm probably not even in a position to speculate about anybody else's relationship. After all, I basically don't have one at the moment. Therefore I wouldn't worry too much about I have to say.
My friend had hypo-thyroid (slowed down) rather than Hyper-thyroid (speeded up). The effects are different.
You're right. You can only work on you. I just hate to see you take everything so personally.
Some stuff your W will just have to figure out on her own. I think things will work out if you can just hang in there.
My H on the other hand, is off in his own little world. Oh well...
Think I'll go take a walk. Bye for now.
rayanne
Thanks again, Rayanne.
I don’t worry about what you have to say, or anyone else. We’re all different. However, that doesn’t mean that I don’t value your advice. You don’t have to be involved in my sitch to have insight into it. That’s the value of this BB, and you’re a valuable friend.
I actually meant hypo rather than hyper. I’ve been doing some reading, and hypo is more common, and fits my W’s symptoms better.
It’s getting hard for me to “hang in there” ( yeah, like you didn’t notice
). The more I read, the more I suspect that W is suffering from some sort of hormonal depletion; whether it be thyroid, adrenals, or whatever. The problem is that I can’t approach her about it because she’ll see it as me wanting to ease
my suffering. And it’s true, too. That’s part of it.
Will she figure it out on her own? I don’t know. I think her book is pretty clear that if you have symptoms, you have to tackle your emotional issues. It also seems to be clear that hormonal testing is important, and that if you’re deficient, you should do something about it. Not necessarily HRT, but diet, acupuncture, etc. etc. etc. But, she is tired of doctors. She’s spent a lot of time “being poked and prodded” (emotionally) when looking for help for our handicapped son. I just don’t know if she’d be willing to get poked again.
I think that I’ll have to approach her about it at some point (despite the warnings from Matilda and Lily). But, the way things are at the moment, it’ll have to wait.
Andy
ANS,
One of our fellow DBers just told me I should find myself a 29 year-old. I'm not entirely sure he was joking.
rayanne
Since I’ve been feeling excessively fragile lately (anyone notice?), I’ve been a little more distant from W. It’s easier to avoid the feeling of rejection. So, I may as well let her sleep in (instead of our morning coffee).
She called me at work today. Wish I could say that it was social, but she wanted something. But, I took the opportunity for some chit-chat. She slept well last night. Well enough not to notice that I touched her foot with mine as she slept (no rejection. Wheeeeeeeee). But, she did notice that I left quickly this morning. She thought I was mad at her for something.
Nothing earth shattering about all of this, but at least it shows that she cares about me. It also shows that she’s less defensive. She believed me when I said that I wasn’t mad.
BTW, rayanne. Did I mention that I’m 29? (just kidding)
Andy,
You're a bad, bad boy
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
You know, you might be on to something. Try a little more distancing, with love of course!!
M
Yeah, but bad boys are kind of interesting.
Sorry ANS, but you already spilled the beans about how old you are.
Your W obviously cares about your feelings. I think things will work themselves out. It seems like there are a lot of those "fragile feelings" around the last couple of days. I've kind of been feeling like that too as have several other people I've talked to.
We must all be due for some better times, huh?
You have a nice evening, okay?
rayanne
Just dropping by to read your threads, say hi, and many thanks for your help. I appreciate the time you have taken to offer advice. Hope you are having a good day.
Daisy
Been all over the boards today, spouting my usual claptrap about not showcasing your changes. “Eventually your spouse will notice.” Also told someone (sorry, don’t remember who), that it’s OK to mention it, but only occasionally, and after a long period of doing it.
I’ve never been all that secretive about DB. I’ve always told W that I was changing. Trying to be a better father and H. For the kids, for W, and for me. I’ve told her that I had no intention of showcasing the behavioral changes because I know she’d just think they were for show only.
So, I’ve been doing this – sometimes not so successfully – for over a year now.
A year ago, W basically avoided me. From there, she moved to allowing me to do things with her and her friends. She would only deign to be alone with me as a “gift” such as my birthday or X-mas. Roughly once every 6 months.
Last weekend, she mentioned that we might go to a movie (possibly alone). We’ve chatted on MSN a coupla times (initiated by me), and she’s called me at work a few times. Twice today. She’s thinking that maybe we can do the movie thing tonight.
Hmmmmmmmmm….
D’ya think she might be making concessions to me… Not showcasing them… Waiting for me to notice?
I can’t assume this, but wouldn’t it be ironic?
Stranger things have happened.
There is just way too much thinking going on here
I know, because I'm guilty of the same thing -- over thinking and over analyzing. Relax. Just be you. Let things happen and see what happens.
Love ya,
M
Thanks, Matilda.
I know it sounds like I’m over-analyzing, but…
W and I are trying to open up to each other. It’s tricky at this point because we have so little time to talk, and we’re misinterpreting each other a lot. I think we’re both trying to understand each other while not giving false impressions about our own feelings. I’m trying to “just be me”, but the “me” I’m projecting is not me.
Friday night, we went to a movie. On the way back, we were just being ourselves. I’m not quite sure what happened, but in the middle of some chit-chat, there was a palpable tension that arose. Some innocent statement got misinterpreted. I’m not even sure whose statement or whose interpretation, but things fell into sullen silence.
Last night, W was very empathetic about how hard it must be for me to always be the initiator. I replied that at least I can still ask. She said “Well, that’s one way of looking at it.” Later, we cuddled for quite awhile. We both want things to get better.
This morning, she kept asking me what I was thinking. She seemed to feel that I had something to say. I didn’t really. She then told me of some of the things I’ve been doing that makes her angry. We started to talk it out, but were interrupted by the kids.
So. You see. Just “being me” doesn’t work! It’s too open to interpretation.
This morning, I emailed her to clarify my feelings. Was that bad DBing? Perhaps, but it’s something new for me/us, so I just gotta wait and see if it works, eh?
Andy
Good morning, Andy!
I wish I had the solution for getting your wife to go for a T panel. If she's having any menstrual problems that could be the window of opportunity. The thyroid plays havoc w the length and frequency of the menstrual cycle. If there's any irregularity there then you could encourage her to go in and get that documented. You have to go 12 entire months without a period before you can check off menopause. My gyn is in the process of determining where I am in the game. I wish I'known about T panels when I was your wife's age; I could have avoided a lot of suffering.
Thinking about ya and hoping ya have a good day!
Thanks, Lily.
One of the issues that made W mad was that I had made a comment about her book that turned her off of the book. She said that she had to stop reading it. In my email, I told her that I’m more open minded than she gives me credit for. I also told her that I’m not “spying” on her by reading the book. Only that I care for her very much, and want to know more about what’s happening with her. She seems to have accepted this.
The book discusses HRT. It recommends that if a woman is considering HRT, she should get a complete set of hormone tests, and replace only the ones that are low. I believe this includes thyroid. I would very much like W to take these tests. She’s currently taking BCPs, which she says are “somewhat” effective. I think that perhaps, they have put her hormones even more out-of-whack, and therefore has decreased her libido even more.
She has said that her peri is a very personal thing, and therefore doesn’t tell me much about her symptoms. I told her in my email that I would be interested in discussing this with her if SHE wants to.
So, the way things sit right now, I have to respect her privacy. And, if I were to bring up testing – even in the context of the book – it would be obvious that I’m only thinking of myself. I don’t know how she would take that. (sigh)
Well, shoot, get your step-mom in on this! I am able to say to some women friends, quit trying to figure it out and go get a T panel. Your W expressed a desire to reconnect w the step-mom who is familiar w menopause. She can bring up the thyroid as a cause of a lot of needless pain and aggravation. If the T panel comes back normal then she has established her base line.
Your step-mom could do this, Andy!
Hi Andy..just checking in over here.
It's so hard isn't it when we think we know what's best for our loved one they just don't do it. How wonderful though that your W at least knows that you understand. My H always had trouble with menopause explanations.
It makes sense thata woman should be screnied for all hormone levels. I never thought about it that way.
Do you ever get a chance to get away for a night or two..just the two of you?
Duchess
I’d love to involve my step-mom, but if W is going to talk to her about it, it will have to come from W. I cannot manipulate the sitch through a third party, can I?
I would love to have a night alone with W but I think it would put too much pressure on both of us.
Boy! I’m really stuck! I think W and I are so close to the emotional intimacy that I’ve been striving for, but I can’t jeopardize that for physical intimacy.
What makes it even harder is that I don’t really know how open W is. The only thing I can think to do is to keep an eye out for signs and hope she’ll initiate dialogue.
This morning, she noted that I’d read more of her book. Was this an opening? Perhaps, but I can’t just pounce on any opening w/o looking opportunistic. (sigh)
HI Andy - just stopping by and catching up on your thread. Sorry - can't add any advice on the medical stuff.
FS
Hi, Andy,
One thing that always bothered me about my H (and others, too), is that he considered my PMS or perimenopausal symptoms, whichever was happening at the time, to be the cause for my unhappiness or anger or whatever. The truth is that the problems were there before the symptoms. The hormonal fluctuations only tend to "highlight" the problems more and maybe also give us less emotional control how we handle our feelings.
As far as emotional intimacy vs. physical intimacy, you know the answer to that, my friend. If you truely want the physical part to someday be as important to your W as it is to you, you need to nurture the emotional part first. It sounds like you're on your way. Take it easy. It's worth the wait!
Thanks for your post on my thread. Please ready my reply. I have a question for you in there. I've reached 100 over there. Maybe now it's time to move my carcuss over here!!
Matilda
Hi Andy!
A post at the end of your page 1 had a comment in it about guys and their emotions. Something about how emotions are to be shared w one special person who knows how to pull them out w love and compassion. It was like a light being turned on for me. Thank you!
Nurture that emotional bond like you've been doing. The physical part is the icing. I'd rather have the cake. (Gathering the ingredients, one by one.)
Andy,
Just want to let you know that I still followed your thread from time to time to see how far you have gone to “bring down the wall with the teaspoon”. It seems to me that you are getting there slowly. I’m there with you when it comes to emotional and physical intimacy issues. It might take me forever to get to that point. I’m trying to create the emotional intimacy with my wife right now and it is very hard. I don’t know how far I can go with that. My wife is somewhat open up for that but is still cautious about it.
In a sense, I think we will be dating again even though it might be awkward at first, but we will see. Like you said, “bring down the wall with the teaspoon”. In my case, I’m bringing down the wall with the toothpick because my teaspoon broke a while back and I couldn’t find the way to replace it yet. In a nutshell, sometimes I feel like giving up because it is so hard. So many times, I wasn’t even digging at all because I have no energy left to do so. I want to "bury" the past too but it is hard.
LAN
Thanks, Matilda.
I agree with you completely. Part of my email on Monday was:
quote:
I’m not so afraid of new ideas. Like I said, I do see some validity to what she says. It takes a fresh look at perimenopausal “moodiness”. I found it quite enlightening. Classical thinking is that swinging hormones cause swinging moods. The idea being that the bad feelings are caused by hormones. A woman goes periodically “crazy” at this time of life. The flip side of the coin is that these periods of “craziness” are really periods of clarity. If you’re interested in my view, I think that there are perhaps periods of thinking one way, and periods of thinking another way. The overall effect is clarity. Does that make sense?
But it’s hard to take, Matilda. I find it so hard to believe that I was such an horrible S.O.B., and for so long that it affected my W’s physical and mental health so adversely.
And, I’m trying to nurture the emotional part, but I don’t know how. My recollection of the past 10 years is that I was there for her emotionally. I thought I did a pretty good job of balancing my needs with my obligations to her, my family, and my financial responsibilities.
For the past year, I’ve been subverting my needs (most of the time) to hers. It seems to be working to a degree, but I sometimes get the impression that W figures I’m only doing it as a ploy to get what I want. Of course, she’s right – to a degree. I want my self-esteem back. I’ve always considered it to be one of my best features that I’m a giving, caring person. I’ve had to adjust my behavior to match that admittedly egotistical self-image. At the same time, I want love and respect from my W.
They say it takes one month of recovery for every year of a relationship. I don’t know when you start the clock, but I hope it doesn’t take another year or two.
Lily,
If you like Lauren’s comments on page 1, have a look at Struggling with Perceptions. There’s lotsa great stuff from him and others. Well, at least at the beginning – before it degenerated into “Struggling with Andy’s whining.”
LAN,
Nice to hear from you again. Sorry you don’t feel like you’ve found your spoon yet. I think that it may lie in the dating thing. Yeah, it’s awkward at first, and to be honest, dating isn’t a magic pill that fixes everything, either. My W and I have had a few “dates”, and they just aren’t what they used to be. But, ya gotta start somewhere, eh? Then ya gotta start again. And again. And again….
Maybe the spoon you use to bring down the wall can be used to bury the past?
TTFN,
Andy
Andy,
I know it's hard. There's only so much you can do, and that's frustrating. Ultimately, it will be your wife's decision to become emotionally intimate again. There's just no getting around that. All you can do is continue to show her that you are available for that intimacy and that it is as important to you as the physical intimacy.
I really admire you for all that you're doing to achieve those goals. Don't give up!
Matilda
Andy,
Something I forgot in my post -- don't forget perceptions. You perceive that you were there for your W emotionally. She obviously feels otherwise -- or at least she is concentrating on the times when you weren't and can't remember the times when you were.
Of course you weren't such an S.O.B. to your wife. It's her mindset. Please try to understand that. I was in her place. Your W got to a place where it didn't matter what you did, everything was wrong, everything had an alterior motive (if my spelling is off, please excuse me. It's cocktail time!).
Does this sound familiar -- you'd try to hug her and she'd pull away, afraid that it would lead to something else? Did she not want to kiss you anymore? Did she not even want to hold your hand? If so, she was thinking you only wanted one thing, and it wasn't emotional intimacy.
It sounds like you guys are on the same team now, walking the same path. It'll come back. Believe me, it will.
Matilda
Thanks again, Matilda.
quote:
Originally posted by matilda:
I know it's hard. There's only so much you can do, and that's frustrating. Ultimately, it will be your wife's decision to become emotionally intimate again. There's just no getting around that. All you can do is continue to show her that you are available for that intimacy and that it is as important to you as the physical intimacy.
I really admire you for all that you're doing to achieve those goals. Don't give up!
I really don’t want to give up, but I’m starting to wonder if that’s all I can do. Maybe this is as good as it gets. Maybe this is my success story. Like you said, we’re on the same team, walking the same path. Maybe it’s not the path I want, but maybe it’s not for me to decide which path we should take. Maybe we did take my path for the first half of our lives and it’s now W’s turn to decide.
All I can do is to continue to show her that I’m available for intimacy and that it’s as important to me as the physical intimacy. Maybe, but I just don’t know how anymore. I know exactly what you mean, Matilda when you describe that “she was thinking you only wanted one thing, and it wasn't emotional intimacy.” And I’ve changed my behavior to belay that perception.
But W knows me well enough to know that I’m not happy this way, and all the as-if behavior I can muster won’t fool her. In any case, I don’t want to fool her. Is that intimacy?
We have a friend (good ol’ TF from other threads) who is trying so hard to win back his W that he’s become a doormat. My W thinks that he’s gone too far, and I have to agree. Sometimes, I think that W feels like I’m doing the same thing.
Where’s the balance?
quote:
Originally posted by matilda:
It'll come back. Believe me, it will.
I wish I could believe that.
Andy
Andy, In '89 or '90, my H told me that I started "to change" after my dad died. That also tied into the period of time when my H was laid off; got stuck w a less than desirable job for a year and we had a fiancial control power play. I know I felt incredibly driven to take the financial load off my H. One little stress on top of another; one little disappointment after another tucked in the crevices.
Our dance of conflict didn't help us any. Two conflict avoiders are not going to clear the air in a healthy fashion.
Somewhere my hormonal problems kicked in and that wasn't noticed by my H. He just figured it was something else to stuff. I was one of those 'fix it myselfers' who tried really hard to take care of myself by not going to the doc's.
I can remember feeling like the doer of redundant chores and feeling unwanted, unneeded, unloved. I think I could have simplly said 'taken for granted' but I got going with the 'un's', sorry.
I didn't want H to touch me cause it seemed like such another. . .demand . . .of my being. I can remember being alone on the stairs and saying to myself "something's gotta go. I guess I (the me of Lily) have to die. I began the slow, painful withdrawal from things I couldn't control.
It must have been 2 or 3 summers ago, both kids and H said I'd changed. I was experiencing a mild form of paranoia. I remember the things they thought were perculiar in my thinking seemed so right according to my perception.
Oh! The summer of 2000, after a particulary cruel R talk by my H, I officially --in a private manner--- emotionally withdrew from my H. It occurred to me to leave him but was never really a viable option so I internalized it (never dreaming that H wanted out as well!!!!!!!!!)
Only when I was dx and started getting enough T3 to my brain was I able to snap out of the emotional withdrawal that I had toward my H.
Had he dropped the bomb 6 months before or even 1 week before he did, I would not have been able to cope.
Please hang in there. Your W doesn't know how blessed she is to have a H who is in a caring mode. You've done so much to give her body, mind, and soul the rest it needs. She's so lucky not to be alone in this.
Andy, I can't say your W's emotional state is tied to her hormones. Mine were. I can say that my H was not tuned in to me and I sure could have used his support. I am not casting blame, just observing.
When I think of the years that I caused me to suffer just because it never occurred to me that what was happening to me physically didn't have to be. Geez!
[ March 15, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: lily ]
Lily,
Your story sounds waaaaaaaay too familiar.
My W is a stay-at-home mom. Ever since our first child was born 16 years ago, she has had no financial input. She’s been the emotional caretaker for the entire family. She often told me that she felt all of the “un’s” that you described. I’ve always told her that despite what society may think about her role, I’ve always considered it vital. Maybe those were only empty words to her.
Her life with me has always been stressful. Four kids; the youngest being autistic. Except for the period of time when I was clinically depressed, I don’t believe that I’ve contributed to her stress to a large degree, but in retrospect, I should have done more to alleviate it. Maybe I leaned on her to fulfil my needs at a time when her needs were greater.
Also in retrospect, her hormones have been a factor. Several years ago, I had to rush her to hospital because her entire body felt like it was on fire. I mentioned this on another thread, and I believe it was Wintergirl who told me… Thyroid!
Well, every doctor she saw patted her on the head, sent her home, and told her it was nothing. The only doctor who gave her an explanation was an MD/acupuncturist who told her that her body was rebelling against the demands that I was putting on her. He said that men were takers, and I was no different.
About 1 ½ years ago, she started to “change.” I thought so, the kids thought so, but W didn’t think so.
Lily, like you, my W is a fix-it-yourselfer. I don’t believe she’ll have her hormones tested. After all, if her hormones are fluctuating, it’s only a natural change that women go through. If there’s a problem, it’s my ability to adapt to this.
So. Has her perception changed because of hormones? I think it probably has, and W probably recognizes this. Is it hormonal imbalance or the natural progression of her personality to which I must adapt?
I don’t know. All I know is that I’m having an hard time adapting. I also know that I have no choice.
Blame doesn’t enter into it. It’s just the way things are.
Andy
Andy:
I've also been a stay-at-home mom all these years - with one exception. I started a business at home almost 16 years ago when my youngest was just 3 weeks old in order to take some of the financial stress off my H. So I had 3 kids under the age of 7, the youngest two were only 18 months apart, staying at home to raise them all the while trying to run a business. I would spend 14-16 hours a day for the first 5 of those years working, even on weekends. My H felt "neglected." That was when he had his first A. Did it ever occur to him that I was neglected? That I was doing everything for everyone else and had no time left for myself? I really thought he valued what I did. He always said he wanted me to stay home to raise the kids. That was what I wanted, too. And I really thought I was being a wonderful partner by trying to help in whatever way I could to take the financial stress off of him. Now to hear him say that he felt "neglected" and turned to another is not only heart wrenching, but deeply disappointing.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with all this. Maybe just needed to get it off my chest. However, one thing I'd like to say is to make sure your W knows just how much you value her for her role in bringing up your family. I truely believe this is the most difficult and most important job in the world. Just make sure she knows you feel that way, too, and truely appreciate her for it.
M
Hey Andy, I'm bout half-way thru. Just wanted to tell you that your voice has really changed. REALLY CHANGED!
Excellent for you. Makes this nutbird happy as heck. She sees it Mister. She sees it. She may not trust it a whole lot but I bet to herself she's a happy girl. At least happier.
Only thing I can toss in so far is don't make the mistake of trying to bury anything. It's there. Whatever it is it's there. It doesn't have to take up center stage in the living room but it's part of the history. Back corner of the basement is a good place...
Again, really glad to see this stuff. You've really pulled yourself around. Congratulations!
Matilda,
It’s amazing how we see our own sacrifices, but not our spouse’s, and we feel neglected, but we don’t see our own neglect of our spouse. It occurs to me that we make sacrifices and are so busy waiting for appreciation that we don’t see the sacrifices our SO is making. And, all the while, they’re doing the same thing.
Lily,
W mentioned to me that she has had her thyroid tested. Though that seems to rule out thyroid, I guess it still doesn’t rule out hormones. TF was over at our place yesterday, and mentioned that his W isn’t affectionate enough for his liking. He supposed it was hormones. My W said she’s too young for that, and implied that the lack of libido was very hard for her (i.e.: hard on my W). In the past, W has said that she doesn’t have sexual feelings towards me, and doesn’t miss them either. I don’t know it this extends to any kind of affection. Maybe we’re just kinda brother and sister. I don’t know. At least she recognizes that this has had an effect on OR.
Hi Fille,
Thanks for dropping by. Have I changed? I guess I have, but my sitch has changed enough to allow me to change.
I have no intention of burying the past. At least not wrt the lessons I have learned. All I’m referring to is that the present is so different than the past, and I want to use the present as a reference point for building our future. I want to bury the bad feelings – both hers and mine – and I don’t want to periodically dig ‘em up, dust ‘em off, and rehash ‘em.
The past is the route we used to get where we are, but regardless of how we got here, we have to deal with the here and now.
Ca, c'est comme ça, parce-ce que c'est comme ça. C'est tout.
Andy
"I have no intention of burying the past. At least not wrt the lessons I have learned. All I’m referring to is that the present is so different than the past, and I want to use the present as a reference point for building our future. I want to bury the bad feelings – both hers and mine – and I don’t want to periodically dig ‘em up, dust ‘em off, and rehash ‘em."
Hi Andy-I really like what you say here....I wish it applied to my sit. You see, H says that I bring up old stuff and he doesn't appreciate it. I know I do. The reason I do is because I do not have any resolution to them. It's like my feelings get brushed aside and and I don't get any thing 'solved' or 'fixed' or 'changed'. Things start to build up and eventually I blow my top. Yes, I have explained this to him. He has nothing to say. I really want those 'learned lessons'. I am not a stupid woman (stupid is as stupid does) but I cannot figure out a way to get this resolution I so desire. I am trying, not too effectively, to resign myself to the fact that I may never get it. It's usually only once a month (cycle) that things get overwhelming, I have only blown my top 2-3 times in the past 6 months. Usually I just go dark for a week or so and he seems fine with that. Thyroid isn't the problem-had that well tested in conjunction with a cyst that was removed...I think it's a cycle thing, either that or I'm just plain nuts!
Gonna think about what you said some more and try and find those elusive resolutions....who knows, maybe they're right there staring back at me-like I can't see the forrest for the trees....
L
Hi, Me.
I'm rereading DB. What you are doing is making the solution the problem. You internalize 'til you can't hold it in and then blow; and are frustrated when that doesn't bring resolution. It doesn't work but you do it again and again and again. Your solution becomes part of the problem. Michele calls that "more of the same".
I spent about 14 years of our 28 year marriage internalizing then blowing. I always -ALWAys-felt better afterwards 'cause I'd cleared the air. What I was clueless about was that my H wasn't listening and was just agreeing w me to get me to shut-up.
So-o-o-o-o-o-o. . .guess who isn't doing any internalizing until she blows anymore?
I'd like to encourage you to think of 'something' different.
Probably your behavior affects his behavior and his behavior affects your behavior. It doesn't matter who started it , you are doing that circular loop Michele talks about. What small change could you introduce that would be a different reaction on your part. Remember the butterfly effect?
Me too Me2.
I used to internalize until I blew up. W always told me that she would rather get things out in the open. So, eventually, I decided to be “completely open.” Woooops. Not such a great idea either. So. What do I do now? I suck it in and never let it out. I’ve found that “honestly” expressing my negative feelings only causes resentment – whether expressed immediately or in a blow-out. So what’s the point? I know that this attitude makes my W sound intolerant, but isn’t that the way we all behave? Thinking back on it, I never used to accept our differences very easily. No wonder she got her back up.
I know that people will say (and have already told me) that I could be honest if I phrased things properly. Maybe that would have worked at one point, but once the pattern is established, changing the wording doesn’t change the perception of finger-pointing.
Of course sucking it in has a downside. Like I posted earlier, sometimes it affects my sleep. Sometimes it ties my stomach in a knot. As-if behavior has – in some cases – helped my PMA. Sometimes it’s not so good. Guess there’s no perfect answer.
And, I guess I'm looking at the long term. I'm still hoping that eventually, I won't have to act as-if. I'm hoping that the things that I have to suck in are just small stuff that shouldn't be brought up anyway.
Andy
Dagnabbed French Canadians...
Did the situation change enough for you to change or did you change enough for the situation to change.
Did the situation change enough for you to change or did you change enough for the situation to change.
Did the situation change enough for you to change or did you change enough for the situation to change.
Infinity
You still ultra analyze and I still talk too much
![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
ME2's discussion grabbed me tho (per usual - hi doll). Cause that was what dragged out the Swan Song. I couldn't talk about anything to even start thinking about the next plane. He was back into protecting himself and forget it. Been working too hard and too long to even listen to it.
So two things. One - You bring up the past because there's no resolution. This last go round seems to have made me a real zipit sis. I won't talk. I won't let him talk. Period. Believe it or not, this is really bothering him. He likes it to a point but it's bugging him quite a bit because my user's manual has changed and he doesn't know what to do.
Two - Is it really that you keep bringing up the past (IGgy always said living in the past) or does the past include current actions? Cause to IGgy, anything 10 minutes ago is the past.
Gonna update my old thread in the old location. I don't fit in any of the specialty sections. People would argue I don't fit in anywhere
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
...
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
Did the situation change enough for you to change or did you change enough for the situation to change.
Probably both. Doesn’t really matter. I wasn’t so much analyzing as just musing. I’ve seen sitch’s on these boards that haven’t come as far as mine, and I don’t think I could handle things as well if the sitch didn’t improve. Of course, it wouldn’t have improved if I hadn’t handled it… Infinity.
But to be completely honest, though I think I'm handling it on the outside (i.e.: doing what works), it's not always so easy on the inside.
Andy
Hey there-
I have to concur with what Andy said....this keeping things inside stuff is a huge 180+ for me, see, before in OR, I told H everything. I thought that's the way marriages were. I kept pretty much NOTHING from him. It caused him to overload-this was a major part of why he had A, at least that's what I've been able to figure out. He was unable at that time to "be" there for me and be my fixer-even tho I told him over and over I only needed him to listen and tell me he loved me. My problem is that while I can keep things in that bother me, it only lasts for a time and then I over-flow and it all comes spilling out. I am a very reaction-ist, meaning that I usually have an immediate and passionate reaction to things, a lot of the time my mouth would start to function before my brain had fully engaged.
So in following the DB practices/principles I decided to try something different. Most of the time it works like a charm, H has noticed that I am calmer and not so reactionary to most things. I just can't seem to keep it up for very long which makes me wonder if the 'change' I've made in and of myself is just that-a change. Or am I just going through the motions? Like Phoe says (hey there girlfriend-good to see you out and about again!), I am not sure if the situation has changed exactly, but it is pretty apparent that I have not changed enough for the situation to change. Like the merry-go-round Andy spoke of on Matilda's (hey to you too-I know you're out there!) thread.
I have tried the no OR talks, but for some reason I just can't keep it up. In the early part of OR we told each other everything. I don't know when or how that changed-but it did. Now that I am not speaking my mind so much, it bothers H. He gets frustrated that I won't finish sentences or thoughts, for fear of bringing up 'old stuff'. (my fear-so I just drop things) I have not initiated an OR talk since the melt-down on our anniv. It was fueled by a loss I just experienced, or rather, just learned of recently that hit me in a very unexpected way. My first love, the man I was going to marry and had lived with for a time in my 20's, passed away in Sep of 2000. I just found out. It hit me pretty hard, which was unexpected. He and I have a LOT of history together and even more unresolved issues...'nother LONG story. H was pretty understanding and compassionate about it, even tho in the past he has expressed a great deal of jealousy about my e-fiance'. There was just too much 'stuff' I'd been holding in and I let fly. Shit happens.
So now that I realize that the holding things in deal isn't working, and the telling everything doesn't work-I need to explore and find my happy medium...much like Andy says.
How do we get there? It's a very personal and individual ideology and I'm sure it's gonna take a lot of time, trial and error.
Any suggestions? I know, if it doesn't work-try something else....right?!
L
[ March 19, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
quote:
Excerpt from DivorceBusting:
The worst advice a newlywed couple could be given is: “It is important to be open and honest with your feelings at all times.” Although the open expression of feelings is a prerequisite for any successful marriage, there are definitely is a time and place for it. Intense feelings often cloud perceptions, making clear assessments of problematic situations difficult.
We want OR to be a safe place where we can express our feelings. We feel we should be able to vent when we feel frustrated, and our spouse will understand. There are two things wrong with this.
Firstly, negative feelings beget negative feelings. I have a book (forget the title) that discusses the use of SBT to fight depression. In it, the author notes that when we are depressed, we want someone to sympathize with our hurt. But, whenever we lean too heavily on someone for this, they back away.
Misery loves company, but company doesn’t love misery.
The second thing that goes wrong is that our spouse will not understand. Therefore, the way they react isn’t what we want, and we get even more frustrated.
The other extreme is when we keep everything to ourselves. Going dark. If our spouse doesn’t even know we have issues, then how can they even try to sympathize or change their behavior. Sometimes, they would be willing to change to accommodate us, but don’t know what to do. Even worse, they start trying to guess what the problem is, and either act inappropriately or simply resent the fact that you don’t trust them.
I want to get to a place in my R where I will keep transient negativity to myself. I want to be able to bring up larger issues with my W in a non-confrontational way. I want to be listened to even if she doesn’t agree with me, and I want her to have an open mind about what I say.
And I want W to feel the same way.
This begs the question… How do I get there?
The only solution that I can think of is to act as-if this is already the way things are. At this point, W will not play the as-if game, but I’m hoping that it’ll rub off. The biggest impediment to this working is that I’m way too sensitive right now. I can act as-if something isn’t bothering me, but it eats me up inside.
Just gotta keep at it, I guess.
Andy
AMEN to that Andy. That's it.
But how to do it and MEAN it eludes me still. I'm pretty good for a while...but then whenever something bugs me and I act as if it really does not, while I search for the time/place/method of bringing it up, H is fine. When I do manage to find the time/place/method of broaching the subject in a non-threatening way (we have actually done this once or twice) the problem is that there is still NO RESOLUTION. H just says "I know" or "I don't know" or "nothing". It seems that of all the things I've tried, nothing works. I get so frustrated sometimes at his lack of anything.
AMEN to that Andy. That's it.
But how to do it and MEAN it eludes me still. I'm pretty good for a while...but then whenever something bugs me and I act as if it really does not bug me to while I search for the time/place/method to bring it up I also get eaten up inside. When I do manage to find the time/place/method of broaching the subject in a non-threatening way (we have actually done this once or twice) the problem is that there is still NO RESOLUTION. It's like I tell him how I feel, ask how he feels and I get no answer or "I don't know" and then he acts like 'ok, your feelings are noted' and that's it. And, yes, I have asked him specifically to do things, I've also tried to let him come to a decision himself-which he does not (or can not?). I have tried the 'when you do XXXXX, it makes me feel XXXX and I think I'd feel better is you were to XXXX' or 'what do you think would help me not to feel XXXX'...still the same pat answers: "I don't know" or "nothing". It seems that of all the things I've tried, nothing works. I get so frustrated sometimes at his lack of anything.
One of his soldiers' wives died today, long battle with breast cancer-it had been coming for a while. He was there with the family to provide whatever support (he could) that they needed. I asked him on the phone how his soldier was doing and his reply was 'well, how's he supposed to be doing-his wife died'. I had to bite my tongue NOT to say, 'gee H I don't know-why don't you tell me how you'd feel' but I didn't because I know it's not a fair question and it is rather morbid. Thinking of myself when his soldier is in so much pain....besides, before my surgery for my throat I told him that if anything were to happen to me I did NOT want 'that woman' anywhere NEAR my kids-I wanted them to go to my parents if he chose to go back to her. He was pretty pissed. Understandably so, that really was a pretty shitty thing for me to say-but I needed to say it. It's how I felt-who knows what could have happened? I don't like to leave things un-said which is another one of my 180's, I have been trying not to open my mouth in that way.
Ah well, I am rambling now. I am overanalyzing this WAY tooooo much, y'think? (hey Phoe-I know you're out there....wouldn't you agree??!!)
going home to hug my kids and my H....he's had a rough day....
L
Me2,
I guess the next step to acting as-if is believing as-if. In other words, acceptance of what we can’t change.
You act as-if something doesn’t bother you until you can “manage to find the time/place/method of broaching the subject in a non-threatening way.” Then you broach the subject, and if there is no solution forthcoming, accept it.
Sounds simple, doesn’t it. But… if you’re talking about your spouse’s behavior, you know they can change it if they want to! How do you accept it when they won’t change their behavior?
The tough part is accepting our spouse’s weaknesses.
Growth is a detox process, as our weakest, darkest places are sucked up to the surface in order to be released. Often, upon seeing the weaknesses in each other, we have the tendency to go "Yuck!" and walk away on some level. But often it is not a change in partners but rather a change in perception that delivers us to the love we seek. When we shift our view of the purpose of intimacy -- from serving our own needs as we define them to serving a larger process of healing -- then an entirely new opportunity presents itself. Our wounds have been brought forward, not to block the experience of love, but to serve it. It is in the forgiveness of our weaknesses that we are healed of them, and the tenderness of a forgiven heart is a tenderness that will ultimately heal the world.
--From Enchanted Love : The Mystical Power of Intimate Relationships, by Marianne Williamson. © February 2001
Pretty much what Andy said.
K.I.S.S.
Maybe it's just adjusting to the 180s. It's tough enough for us and we know we're doin em. Get discouraged when they act the same/step up the negative. Hard to wait it out.
I wonder ME2, do you feel different from when before? Before the A, after the A, after coming here, now? Because to me it seems as tho you're still pretty close to the same circles. I know I've had distinct, noticable changes throughout the process and was curious.
Hey Andy
Hi Andy,
Just came to visit, take my shoes off, and rest my head for a few minutes.
I just erased an entire paragraph.
It was a bunch of wishful thinking and assumptions about H and me. Part of my control habit was I was forcing H to conform to my ideal of what a perfect marriage should be like. I seem to be living the 180 here as well as in the real world.
I have to go slowlee. Gracefully.
Erased more stuff. Geez.
Busy days in front of us.
We have CS tomorrow (duct tape packed), then the dress rehearsals and 2 Easter Cantada performances. Add to that D comes home and H and I are going to have D and S follow clues to their Chocolate Easter Bunnies---what fun! Family time on Sunday, then I think S will go for Driver's test next week.
I am amazed that this is happening! I hope to be over here by April.
Andy, I do not take any of this for granted. God is Working. I'm DBing in the wings.
Hi Andy- How is it that you manage to read my mind so well? You just said exactly what I need to do (again), and mind you-I know this too-it's just the doing it all the time part that I'm chasing my tail on....
"The tough part is accepting our spouse’s weaknesses" and may I also add 'accepting our own'
Now that I have had my eyes opened (wide) I understand what the weaknesses are, and even tho I knew about the procrastination before we were together (as a couple), I didn't think it would bother me so much. Once again, I am proven wrong.
Phoe-you ask an interesting question that I will try to answer, but probably need to sit and really hash-out how I feel now as compared to before A, after A but b/f DB and now with DB. Before the A I thought we were 2 of the lucky few. I thought we had a good marriage. Not great, we had our problems but hey, who doesn't? I always thought I could talk to him about anything and felt he thought he could talk to me as well. I noticed a change after the kids were born but we talked about it and unless he was outright lying to me, we both recognized how our lives would change and had already changed but we agreed to always to put the kids first-and still try and maintain the 'us' in OR. I believed in his fidelity above anything else he could have ever done. I never thought him capable of cheating on me. He has always been very jealous of me (he is almost 10 years older) and he always worried about me finding a 'younger stud'. When I was in the military and was usually the only female officer in a whole slew of men, rarely did I ever work with another female and while I had a few female soldiers, they were subordinate and could not be my "buddies". He was always jealous of me being around all those men (btw most-not all-men in the military are in really good physical shape and don't look all that bad in a pair of PT shorts). We had a number of arguments about how he felt I was flirting with all the men I worked with. I think this might be siginificant to his A b/c once in a C session he said that during his A he figured I was already cheating on him, so why shouldn't he? C asked him if he had any proof that I was cheating and then suggested that maybe he was trying to justify his A by thinking that way. So then I (rather loudly) pointed out- how could I have been? I was in a new state, new house, new job, 2 dogs, freshly moved-in-to and yet unpacked house, caring for 2 kids under the age of 5....like I had TIME to cheat on him....not to mention the fact that since I met my H, I have not met another man I'd consider being intimate with-the desire for that just isn't inside me-HE is who I want.
Ok, about half way through his deployment I find out about him 'chatting' with a woman on line-he lies for almost a year saying he'd never met her, it was just friends-just someone to talk to-nothing sexual, claims he didn't even know what she looks like, met her in a chat room and that she lived in CA. It was all BS. I knew it was a EA/PA but couldn't prove it. I was miserable during that time. Did all the wrong non-DB things. I had gone to see a solution-based C after I found out while he was still deployed and it helped some, but I never got to the point where I trusted him about the whole thing and it was slowly ripping me apart. Since he wasn't here he couldn't go to C with me, it was all about how I could deal with what he told me vs. what I believed to be true. How not to snoop and how he deserved the benefit of the doubt, how to start taking care of and focusing on me and the boys....Accepting what they tell you when you know in your heart it's BS was something I never did master. Even after the deployment was over he acted like everything was fine and that it was all in my head-I was the one with the problem.
I found out the whole truth about the A 7 November 2000, about 6 months after he got home. Happy voting day to me. (yes I did still vote) It was about 2 months or so after that when I found DB. I was a mess for those 2 months. I could not keep it together for more than a few hours. I often had to leave work and just go sit in my car and cry or scream. We spoke VERY little, but we did go back to my same C at his request-which helped.
So here I am now, almost 14 months post DB and where am I?
Most days I'm fine and we are ok, not perfect, but just ok-like before A. But there are other days....I know I still have a lot of anger inside of me-after this last melt-down, he now knows it too. I told him I was afraid that he'd wake up one day and realize that I'm not really worth it after all and he'll bolt. I don't trust him. I don't think he's got an OW now or has had another OW since his A and I know he stopped seeing her and stopped all contact with her when he said he did (she confirmed this to me-AND apologized to me as she didn't know he was married). I have a lot of unresolved issues. Accepting that they will likely never be resolved is probably the best way to describe where I'm at right now. I can't seem to do that. I know how to tell myself to do this, let it go, give it to God, truly forgive, accept his weaknesses and my own...I know what the books say and I even carry a copy of the Serenity Prayer with me...but....
....but....(always HAS to be that dam but, huh.)
thanks for the rant!
L
[ March 27, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
You know sweetie, I would love it if you would paste that last post on a new thread here. Really. That would be something new for you and I think it would be something that would be worth your while.
Your heart still hurts a lot. How do you think you can effect change there without pounding him or putting yourself in line for more of the same?
Hey Andy. Sorry to take over your thread. I hope things are well in your world. I did print that quote and I do read it. Sometimes it's tougher than others but thanks again.
I know....I know I should....have my own thread that is, it'd keep me from butting my way in on everyone elses (and...there's that "but" again!).
Thanks for the support Phoe-and of course Andy et al.
I will think about it, I promise. It just doesn't feel right having my own. Like I'm to the point where I shouldn't need one, y'know? Apparently, I do....
But not today-and probably not for the next week or so, my youngest is getting his tonsils out tomorrow....been sick-poor little guy. Gonna go focus on mom-stuff for a week or so.
I'll be back....
L
Time for an update.
I’m not quite sure where to begin. What’s this thread called? Oh yeah, Burying the past.
Some people took exception to the title. Perhaps Kent was more accurate when he told me that I should let it (the past) go. Anyway, bury it or let it go… semantics. My problem is that I want to leave the past in the past, but somehow couldn’t get W’s mind out of the past.
A recent development illustrates my point, and happily, I think shows some headway.
For awhile now, W has been drooling over motorcycles. I’ve always wanted us to get bikes when we could afford them. It’s always been a future dream of mine – for both of us. But, it seems to have turned into something between her and MF (he’s getting one).
Well, a couple of weeks ago, she informed me that she’s been saving for one. Has almost $1,000 saved. Fine. I can swallow that. Maybe by the time she can afford one, she’ll deign to discuss her dreams and maybe even include me in them.
This weekend, she asks S#1 and me to go look at the bikes at the local dealership. Nice. I guess maybe she’s starting to allow me into the club. We can go and drool at bikes together. Well, while we’re there, she keeps saying, “So, do we buy it now?” I thought she was joking around, but on the way home, she asks me how she should pay for it, (our) line of credit, or does she (me) take out a loan. I had no answer so she asked, “Don’t you want any input on it?” I told her that frankly, I don’t think we can afford it yet, but if she’s going to go ahead, it doesn’t matter to me how she (me) pays for it.
We later discussed payment options. I was determined not to get in her way. 20 rolls of duct tape!
I couldn’t believe that she’d unilaterally decide to make a major purchase like this for herself without even mentioning it to me. She just presented it to me as a done deal. Whatever happened to her assertion that we could “talk about anything. The lines of communications are always open.”?
So. Again, I sucked it in.
Well. This morning, she asked me if I felt like she was going after the bike behind my back. I said, “kinda.” She told me that in view of the way things were this summer (between us), she didn’t feel like she could talk to me about it. She said it had become a dream of hers and she thought I would resist it all the way. She said she was “pleasantly surprised” when I didn’t.
D’ya think she’ll finally bury the perception that I’m an impediment to her happiness? Can she bury that part of our past?
I’m hoping that this incident will prove to her that she can bury/let go of the past. Even this past summer.
BTW, Fille. Remember how you laughed when I commented that I was usurping someone else's (tree’s?) thread? Right back at ya
Andy
Andy,
I've been looking for your story & here you are. Sounds like it's been interesting. I'm always amazed at the different things everyone comes up with to handle things, manytimes in ways that wouldn't ever occur to me. Just wanted to stop in since you've been visiting over on my thread. I've had a few new interesting developments lately. Hope things are well with you.
HI Andy,
Just wanted to say hello...re your last post, I hope it is a step for your wife. That would be nice.
I always come by and check out your thread...don't usually post as most of your visitors (and yourself) seem to have pretty deep posts and I don't feel that I have the same experience as some others....but I do come by and keep tabs on you.
Keep up the good 'duct tape' job!
Wow Andy..love the way you handled the motorcycle incident.I love that she was pleasantly surprised.
This reminds me of a time about 3 months after discovery of H's A.(Pre DB) He wanted to go out and buy a convertible. I flipped out.. my approach was "No you've had an A..now you have to do penance and so you can't drive around in what some might consider a babe magnet!!"..( I didn't use the word penance but you get the picture)..how controlling of me..YUC!!..he dropped it..didn't buy the car..
Funny 'cos I've got it in my head now that I want to rent a convertible find some hills and/or coastline and drive up and down 'em.
Duchess
[ April 07, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Sunday, I asked W if the proposed motorcycle was for her exclusive use. This opened a whole can of worms about her “right to have things of her own.” She said that she saved the money on her own, and that if I want a bike, I should save my money. She also said that she doesn’t think it’s right that I take the bike course now. I should save my money. All I could think was “Yes, you saved enough money to buy a good helmet. What about the bike, insurance, shed that we’ll have to build, leather… ca-ching!”
I said that she saved money w/o telling me, and decided to make a major purchase w/o consulting me. From her point of view, she lucked out by already having her license, and why shouldn’t she now use the money for a bike. She retracted her “pleasant surprise.” Guess she felt that nothing’s changed. She also said that she felt that I was waiting for her to change, and that it won’t happen. She also stated that this was just another example of me hiding my feelings.
Last night, she told me that I should take the course whenever I want.
Huh?
She said that she was just being selfish when she said I should wait.
Y’know? I think that – in a sense – I am waiting for her to change, but not in the way she thinks. I also think that, despite what she said, she is changing. She’s starting to consider my POV.
But, the whole bike-course thing may be moot anyway. My practice lead at work is trying to get me back on the infamous project from hell (sigh)
Andy,
Your W sounds a bit like my H in the "right to have things of my own" department. Only his was that he "deserved" to have a motorcycle. He works hard, makes good money, does all of the repairs on house, cars, etc. So he "deserves" a Harley Davidson. Mind you, this was last year while he was having an affair. How in the world does one justify "deserving" anything while being in the midst of destroying the person you supposedly love? I finally gave in to him buying a motorcycle. We've had fun on it together. It is expensive. And it's also a reminder to me of what a jerk he was last year.
I wonder if your W was testing you in some way? Probably a test that you wouldn't have passed either way. Sometimes I think we need to stop analyzing everything he said/ she said. It gets exhausting. And you know what, we usually come to the wrong conclusion anyway. I know this DB'ing works, but don't you get tired thinking about every word that comes out of your mouth -- if it was the "right" thing to say and how will they take it?
I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. My M probably wouldn't be in such a mess if I were smarter.
Keep your chin up. You know in your heart things are getting better. It's just way too slow for you, I know.
Matilda
M,
****************************************
. Sometimes I think we need to stop analyzing everything he said/ she said. It gets exhausting. And you know what, we usually come to the wrong conclusion anyway. I know this DB'ing works, but don't you get tired thinking about every word that comes out of your mouth
*****************************************
Ya sound pretty smart to me.
Thanks for dropping by Matilda and Kent. And, of course a thank you to Esperanza, FS and Duchess, too.
Been thinking about “but don't you get tired thinking about every word that comes out of your mouth.” To be honest, I’ve always thought out what I have to say before saying it. If I’m in any doubt about hurting someone’s feelings, I may choose to not say it at all. This is especially true if what I have to say could be misconstrued as critical or hurtful. I do this for anyone I talk to. For me, it’s common courtesy.
I’m a strong believer that we should extend our spouses at least the same level of courtesy that we would any other person.
The big difference is the level of importance attached to my feelings relative to my W compared to any other person. I may have an opinion on someone else’s behavior, but my W’s behavior directly affects me. I cannot, nor should I just “shut up” whenever my W does something I disagree with. We’re supposed to be a team. We are supposed to cooperate on a lot of things. And, despite her contrary behavior, W says she agrees with this.
For me, the only people whose opinion of me counts is my immediate family. My W and my kids. The only people who I have to cooperate with on personal matters are my W and kids.
When I express a desire or opinion, I have to brace myself for a personal attack from W. Therefore, I have to be careful how I word things, and be ready for misinterpretation. If I don’t express my desires/opinions, then W either assumes I don’t have ‘em or assumes I’m bottling up my feelings to unload them on her at a later time.
That’s what I’m tired of, Matilda.
Is she testing me? Possibly. Or, perhaps she’s just trying to stop me from opposing her by moving to the attack. The best defense is a good offense.
Matilda, I’m trying to keep my chin up, but every time I think things are getting better, it seems like nothing’s changed. At times, I really wonder if things’ll ever get better.
Sunday, after our motorcycle blowout, W started thinking in terms of letting me buy my own motorcycle. Not a new one like hers, but perhaps a “learner”. And, like I posted before, she backtracked on letting me take the course. She also mentioned to the kids – in passing – that she was “neglecting papa lately.”
Does she believe this, or is she just trying to placate me? I don’t know. Should I just let it all slide off of my back? I hear Kent saying, “Just let her work on her own issues.” But, her issues are inextricably interwoven with mine.
I don’t think I’m overanalyzing things. Just trying to figure out how to make my desires and opinions known w/o seeming to stomp all over W’s. Just trying to figure out how we can learn to “play together.”
Andy
quote:
Originally posted by ANS:
When I express a desire or opinion, I have to brace myself for a personal attack from W. Therefore, I have to be careful how I word things, and be ready for misinterpretation. If I don’t express my desires/opinions, then W either assumes I don’t have ‘em or assumes I’m bottling up my feelings to unload them on her at a later time.
How frustrating this must be for you!
This is just a thought. I wonder if you might want to try "echoing" i.e.whatever she says you say "It sounds like------" or "If I got it you said---------"
I have found this to be immensley helpful.
Your W's perception may be that she has to go on the attack to make sure you have heard.
I know I used to do it.
With echoing the other person knows you have heard 'cos you are repeating back. It doesn't mean you have agreed/disagreed with her..just heard her.
When I started doing this my H changed dramatically.It seemed I hadn't been listening all that time
It IS somewhat contrived and doesn't always feel natural....anyway I'm rambling just thought I'd throw that out there.You are probably already doing it if I think I know you
Andy BTW I do so agree with you. In ALL walks of life and with all the people we deal with... we DO have to think about what comes out of our mouths.For the longest time I didn't..I'm learning how to.
Duchess
Thanks for the post, Duchess.
I’ve heard of this technique, but the issue isn’t that she doesn’t think I’m listening. The issue seems to be that I always misinterpret what she says. So she’s given up trying to tell me things. It’s time for this thread to meet it’s maker, so I’m moving on over to
How can I listen if she won’t talk?See y’all there,
Andy