Making a list of my needs when I dont know what they are.

[Sue]

Okay the good news is My H is looking forward to us making our lists of our needs and going over them tonight during our solution oriented talk. He has his list ready!
I still am at a loss as to what my needs are!!! I told him I thought we could just go through work book together at the end of the five love languages book. Maybe I should stick the DB book in the bathroom for him to read as well, being he never did finish it. we could work on that together as well.
Why is it so incredilby hard to figure out my needs??? I keep comming up with things I need him to stop doing... can I list those?
I am going to go over some of my old threads, I just wanted to get a new one started since my "Guys, help me understand my H" has gotten so long and that crisis has come to an end pretty much as far as the fight and now its time to move forward with solutions.
okay I have really put no info here for those that dont know my story, but Chris does so Chris, when you dont have a job you can give me some thoughts from our past exchanges maybe? I am going to work on figure things out more today though.

right now one of my biggest problems is just getting him to understand what I am saying and not twisting it to mean something else then not believeing me when I explain.

this is an exerpt from my other thread:

" He just does not know how convert his feeling for you in the actions and behaviors that are positive in your eyes. HE WILL NEED YOUR HELP." (from Chris's post)

I dont know how to comunicate it in a way that he wont twist it to mean something else. I try to give examples of how I react in similar situations that are reversed, and point out that I would like the same courtesy in return. He just says well he is not me and thinks and feels diferently. My counselor said the same thing. So I feel kind of stuck there.

Sue

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

Glad you posted over here. I even started to feel confrontational over in newcomers. Not that anybody was saying anything that was not "right". It just really does not get down to getting things on track. I too feel concerned about your personel safety and actually I trust you to know what your limits are there.

Your needs?

I think it is important that you both realize that there are needs that each of have met outside your relationship. This is healthy.

From your posts you do seem to get overwhelmed by the events of the day. How can your H help? Think about what would make you feel better. Would it be better if you did not feel judged by your H when he came howm from work? This then could be turned into a specific positve. Your H could compliment you as soon as he steps in the door. No complaints, No fixes, just something like "It's good to be home".

The calls throughout the day are very important to your H. It carries him through and gives him strength to get through a job that he does not like but provides for you and the kids.

Find away to make sure that he does get through.

Set up schedule for any being on-line and agree to it with your H.

Tell him tonight that you will like help from discovering all your needs. Talk about them and openly and brainstorm solutions.

I do hear you when you say you feel stuck. Ask your H for help.

Sue, It took me a couple of months to figure out what was important to me. Don't get frustrated it will come. Do try to involve your H.

One thing that you might want to consider is setting some specific goals (DB has a good chapter on this). Try some solutions for a week and reevaluate how you both have done.

Sue its good to have you over here.

Chris

[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-09-1999).]

[Zyg]

Sue,

Ok, now that I think I have myself clarified (see my stragler post to your old thread), I think I may have some insight to determining your needs.

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that your having problems defining your needs, because your definitions have no meaning. To illustrate what I mean look at the following examples.

I want to be happy.
I want to feel wanted.
I want to feel appreciated.
I want to be satisfied.

Is that the kind of answers you are comming up with? If so, that is your problem and it is a sticking point for a huge number of people. The above 'needs' have no substance, no 'meat'. They are just 'fat' or 'fillers'.

What I mean by that is that the words 'happy', 'satisfied' etc are subjective, they have no 'formal' meaning. Everyones perception of those terms differ and therefor if you state your goals in that sence, you are selling yourself short.

You need to break needs/desires down further and that is where many people get stuck. "how can I break it down farther, I want to be happy, how hard is that to understand" many may reply. Well, what I am getting at is the state of happiness need to be clearly defined. I cant ask you what makes you happy becuase the meaning of happy can vary from minute to minute. Instead be very specific and define what happy is. You need to ask yourself how happy feels, what it looks like and what it sounds like, and in addition, you need to put things things in terms you have control over which can be very hard to do since we often think others have a huge affect on our happiness. We need to create an achievable outcome under our control.

Here is another way to look at goals that seem out of your control. Lets say one of the things you look to accomplish is to change your husband, so he is not always late. You are tired of appologizing to hosts and having to sit in the front row at the movies for arriving late. If you could magically change him this instant so he was no longer late, what would that do for you? How does this change the way about your evening now that you are no longer late? ARe you more relaxed, smile more, softer less iritated voice? What his change in behaviour has done is change your attitude and your mood. You would be feeling the way you want to feel. The above exapmle is not feasable of course since you cant change your H, but there is still a lot you can do. You start by changing the desired outcome of one where you change your husband (since you cant) to something under your control such as the goal of feeling more relaxed and calm when you go out with your husband. Now simply think of ways to achive that goal since you actually have control over it.

The above stuff is the kind of thing I find very lacking in all of the relationship books I have read. Defining your needs and change is very specific and the process to do so, control yourself and propel yourself to your goals after identifying them is scarcley touched upon. That is one of the main reasons I have delved into psychology and various self help studies, they complete the tool kit for reconciliation and success in life.

Have you ever heard of the saying, "give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime"?

Well, when we 1st came here we were looking for someone to give us a fish. We have since learned to fish and are eating, but there is more too it. Our fishing poles, lines and hooks will not last forever. We still need to learn to make those things so we can continue fishing and feeding ourselves for a lifetime.

Anyways, I hope that was easy enough to understand

Ayg the Zealot.

[Sue]

Zyg,
thanks!
my problem is not that I come up with vague anwsers like those, its that I am trying to get the perfect detailed answer imediately. Perhaps if I start vague then I can go from there like fine tuning a rough draft! thanks.

Sue

[Michele]

Sue,
Ask yourself the question, "What will my husband be DOING when I feel _____(happier, more respected, more understood?" What are the behaviors? IF I were a fly on the wall in your house, what would i see the 2 of you DOING when you feel you are on track. Would he be complimenting you, sitting down and watching television with you in the evenings, and so on.. What will he be doing differently when you feel better about your marriage?

Also, read the section in DB about the miracle question. that should help you as well. Don't tell him what you are unhappy about, tell him what you rather have happen instead. When you discuss what you're not happy about, men take it as criticism and they often shut down. You don't want this to happen, so be positive. "when you do ___, it makes me feel good." That goes a lot farther.

If he twists things, it just means you need to explain it in a different way. Don't get mad or frustrated. Just try again. When your kids don't understand something you're saying, you don't take it personally, you try again. The same theory applies. Good luck
Michele

[Sue]

Michele,
thanks!
I have been thinking of those questions and for me I am happy as long as he is not mad at me.
I cant say my need is for you not to get mad at me when I let him down.

if you saw my thread in Newcommers
"Guys, help me understand my H" you can see how he dosnt understand what I say and when I try to explain it diferently he says he dosnt believe thats what I meant but what I was saying and insists I meant it how he interpreted it. I really dont feel like there is anything specific he can do for me to make me "happy" I am happy most of the time.

there are ways he reacts in situations that I cant stand, and when I try explain how I would prefer he react then he tells me I am expecting him to think like me and behave like me and he dosnt and cant.
He is very explosive and dwells, I am not. He thinks that when I dont get all wound up and react like him it means I dont care and I do care, I just do not see the point in blowing up over everything, I tend to slow down and think about the situation, more of the Serenity prayer kind of attitude. I think he is very mellowdramatic and he thinks I am just too unemotional and analitical. However I know he apreciates my attitude when he is the one that screws up I wish he could reciprocate that attitude to me when I screw up.

What I take personally about him twisting what I say is when he refuses to believe me when I explain it diferently for him to understand. I have asked him to tell me how to say certain things to him so he will understand what I mean. For ex. when he cant find something (he can never find anything!) he naturally asks me. The way I look for things is I first figure out the last place it was seen and try to retrace steps from there. This infuriates him he feels its telling him he is on his own. like recently he was looking for something and the last time I had seen it was in his hands saying to me oh good we have more of this. so I asked him if he remembers where he set it down after that and he decided I was saying you were the last one with it so its your problem not mine and thats how I get out of helping. when I explained to him thats how I start when I look for something I cant find etc. he said I was lieing and he then repeated what I said, except he completely changed the words and the tone to sound like how he interpreted it. I said no thats not how I said or meant it I reiterated again what I said and meant by it expalining it as I said it and he said I dont believe you why esle would anyone say ____? So I ask for him to tell me how to say it so we dont continue to have this problem and he refused just kept insisting on I was lieing. basically this how it seems to go most of the time and its so incredibly frustrating to constantly have things you say changed and then told your lieing and thats that.

I almost wrote you to ask you to read my crisis but I did get a lot of great suport and advice and the thread is incredibly long.

thanks for your time!
Sue

[Zyg]

Sue,

Unfortunatly we are not the best ones to help you understand your H, because most of us have grown, we have seen the effort you have put forth and we are on you side. Therefor we can not truely relate to your H, especially since many of us were never that bad.

As to your needs, no need to rush. Pose a question and let it sit. For example, I often post part of my feelings one day but wont complete my thoughts till a few days later. This is because, like you, I ask my self a question one day, but the answer may hit me many days later. I get struck by lightning on an almost regular basis. The clarity hits me out of the blue and I make notes of everything.

I simply hope you understand my stance on your safety, physical abuse is one of my weak spots. My mother was beaten before my eyes at a time I was too young to do anything about it. Now I simply disdain those that feel physical violence is the key, especially in a supposed marriage, that is simply unacceptable to me. I just wanted to make sure you know that my main concern is in your personal safety first.

I have faith in you Sue, you have a strength within you I can sense from your posts that very few people have, but as in everything, balance is the key. Unselfish giving can lead to resentment if not carefully monitored and that scenario is no good either.

I just hope your H reasizes the truely rare treasure he has in you before it is too late.

Zyg the Zealot.

[Sue]

Zyg,
I know and I hear you.
It must be very hard to deal with those memories. I hate what my kids have seen. He didnt "beat" me but he was pretty rough when he lost control of his rage and the kids saw some ugly seens that were quite scarey for them and I get angry at myself for not leaving when I should have but that time is past now and I have let it go. I wont go back! I do get frightend when he gets angry because there were so many times when he was so angry he almost choked me to death, I think having that past will make me get scared more easily and I am sure it will take time for that to go away completely if at all. Just like your sore spot with that issue because of your past experience with it, it will always be a sensitive issue for you even though that time is over with. I believe anyone can change if they want to and I know he wants to and inspite of where he is at now, I can see he has come a very long ways in the last year and half, if he can go that much farther in the next year and half the rest of our lives could be wonderful.

I have to know I gave my all. Just like you were talking about in the "hell" thread. You cant just give up saying well theres nothing we can do, we have to try and do what we perceive to be the impossible because there is so much at steak. If were just about me, I would go, because I got really tired of being the one paying for his lessons a long time ago, but I dont want the kids to be paying for more.

take care
goodnight
Sue

[Sue]

Good morning all,

okay we didnt have a chance to have our talk last night, too much going on with the kids.
I did however get a chance to tell him what my thoughts were about attacking some of our biggest problems that cause chaos in the house, first then working down towards the smaller things. We discussed on how to handle these things and are going to start doing those things right away.
I have made some plans of my own regarding my online time, I didnt however share them with him, because then he gets upset anytime I slip from my set goal so its my problem Iam going to keep to myself for awhile and really try to enforce those goals. So I do have more time to make my list

take care all!
Sue

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

I don't have any advise this morning mostly because I think that it is only a matter of time now.

One thing that has worked for me in the past is to schedule some time to really think. For me that time is when I run. About 15 minutes into my run I start to get to get alot of clarity in my thoughts. Its not that it was not there, it's more stripping away the things that don't matter.

I also weight train but thats less thought provoking and more about taming my aggression beast.

Michele's post had me thinking about my situation. For us whenever we are doing just about anything together we are happy. This would work except that for my W right now (and the filter she has on) its not enough. She says that she could be doing this as roomates. I think she is waiting for a "love obbsession" to mysteriously return. Perhaps it has returned but for me and not for her!

Sue I like your idea about the on-line schedule. I also think it is important to communicate more openly about it. Maybe its a bit like the pants... Its not so important how long and when you are on-line but that you validate your h's feelings regarding your on-line time. He is not critical of you not sticking to a schedule, he just wants to feel heard.

Funny I thought I said I did not not have any advise today

Chris

[Sue]

Chris,
thats like me when I say I am going to keep this short, it still ends up long

I know what you mean about the runs, thats when I did my best thinking I dont know why that is. Yep and when weight training I am too concentrated on what I am doing to be doing any phylosophising or reflecting.

the thing with the online time. The reason I dont want to give him planned schedule is because he will get mad at me if I stray from it and call me a liar for going on line during a time I said I wouldnt be and I dont want to be that rigidly tied to a schedule. I think its fine to try to stick to certain times but occaisionally I should be able to look something up or just get on when I feel like it with out having feel bad like I am doing something so terribly wrong. basically I am going to continue to avoid the use of it when he or the kids are home/awake.
I need to make sure I dont get on when he is home because then he feels I am choosing others over him, which is how I think he feels when he trys to call me and cant get through.
He has decided I am addicted so I see it as kind of a trigger for him, when I fail at controlling my "addiction" he is angry because he gets angry with himself regarding his addiction. what do you think?
Because when he gets yelling at me about it sure sounds just like he is talking about himself and the alcoholism.

" For us whenever we are doing just about anything together we are happy."
same with us!

You know what though, I like that great friendship feeling of just having fun and being happy together whatever were doing together. I dont think you need to have that intense passion for each other all the time. Its nice once in a while to feel that and really thats something I miss, and I dont know if that is something to expect to come back. But I think it only does happen when you completely share your true inner essence of who you are with one another.

Sue

[This message has been edited by Sue (edited 12-10-1999).]

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

I think that when you run you rach a state where the combination of chemicals in your brain allows you to relax your thinking. It other words in just seems to come to you. I know that for me I have to wait for about 15 mins until this happens and once I'm there I become free to explore lots of different ideas and also seem to problem solve very well.

My rational is that problem solving involves first identifing the problem then thinking of a broad range of solutions and lastly seeing which one may best fit the problem.

I think that as you run you detach from the emotions and preconceptions of the problem and you then can see with clarity what is going on. The same with solutions.. You tend to let your mind wander through a greater range of possibilities (you find a better fit).

Anyway it seems to work for me (good DB ing ).

I agree with what you are saying about time together and it's those thoughts that bring me tremendous comfort. I really like doing things with my W.

Perhaps this is the key to both our situations!

You asked about your on-line time and addiction. I still think that is really more about his insecurities.

I think it would be useful to be very clear with him that your on-line time is not a threat in any way to him. I don't know how you do this but he does respond to words. Be proactive. Tell him that you are limiting yourself and tell him why.

I think his insecurities are the key to diffusioning the "problem" areas in your relationship. Every oportunity you can get to squash them will strengthen him and cease the symptomatic behaviors.

Must go (job stuff the MC)

Chris

One last thought.... I think you might respond to affirmations????

[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-10-1999).]

[Rich]

Sue,

Alert: Thread Buster

Posted this in Cheers but just happy to see you're back in the solution focused mode.

I don't have first hand knowledge of substance or physical abuse. I share some of Zyg's concerns but its your choice to make. Be careful.

Anyway Chris I love when you get fiesty over in Newcomers. Good luck at the marriage counselor. Take the reins.

Rich

[Sue]

Hi
okay H and I went out and ran some errands together last night, I decided to hire a sitter to make the experience a little easier. It was fun just hanging out together.

heres the thing. we were just talking and had a typical miscomunication and this happens all the time. He says it dosnt happen when he talks to other people and it dosnt happen to me when I talk to other people so we are trying to figure why it happens to us.

we were talking about Theressa and how I post for her being she cant post anymore because her boss said no more posting or chatting from work.
He asked me if she would get introuble from her employers seeing what we are doing via email because companys check the email.
he said where does she work?
I said I didnt know.
He said dosnt it say on her mail.
I said no it says what department she works in but not the name of the company. He said what is it?
I said I dont know for sure which dept, I didnt pay attention it just says dept something.
He said well what is it?
I said I told you I dont know where she works or the name of the department.
He said well if you dont want to tell me then just say so. are you afraid I will call her or something?
I said no I just dont know where exactly she works.
He said if you dont want to tell me her email address then just say so its no big deal.
I said I dont know her email address, I dont have it memorized.
he said well why didnt you just say that when i asked you what it was?
I said I didnt realize you were asking what her email address was.
He said if you didnt know what I was asking why didnt you ask me.
I said I thought you were asking me where she worked and what dept she worked in.
he said we were talking about her email address and I asked what is it how could you not know what I was talking about.

he said I needed to work on my comunications skills, and if I dont know whats being asked of me then to ask to clarify what it is you want to know. rather then try to muddle through it when you dont know what you are answering. I said well I thought I knew what you were asking me I thought you were asking me where she worked and when you asked what is it I thought you were referring to what dept does she work in. I didnt think I was tyring to muddle through any thing and I think you read into things when you were accusing me of just not wanting to tell you and trying to sidestep your question.
I said also rather then repeating the same question the same way when I didnt answer you right you could change the way you ask it. if someone misunderstands you you just explain it diferently rather then get mad and keep repeating the same thing

see how its such a dumb little thing but it gets frustrating.

I think with other people if you answer their question wrong, they will rephrase their question. thats what I do and I dont have problems with other people. also there have been times I have misunderstood what my counselor was asking me and when I answered it was not what he was after and he would say what I mean is and then ask it diferently and I would say oh I see what your asking and then answer and its no big deal no one is upset.
but with my H it happens like above.

so what do I do?

Sue

[slone]

Sue,

this is not meant as a criticism, but you DO spend an ENORMOUS amount of time online! I decided to follow just one day of your posting...and you are online virtually ALL DAY! It is no wonder you don't get much accomplished around the house.

I understand the temptation and the lure of the computer, but I cannot believe that you can't exercise more discipline. Exactly HOW gigantic IS YOUR house that you cannot catch up?

I had an over 10,000 Sq. ft. house, and two sons, one who was severely retarded and handicapped. He needed virtually 24/7 care, and I did it all myself. And, my house was always in order, in fact, it was on house tours! I also sit on several boards, and have run many fundraising campaigns for my community. YOU just DO it!

They say that the state of your home and purse reflect your inner-state, this is what you need to work on. Once you come to terms with that, the rest will fall into place.

And, I know lots of people, with FAR more challenging situations, than having been blessed with 3 healthy, active children, to be lucky enough to take care of, who somehow manage to accomplish everything that they need to do.

And, the solution, to your H not being able to reach you during the day, when you are online, is to invest in having another phone line installed. Whatever the cost, it is worth it, because the cost, is outweighed, by the benefit in the reduction of tension that will exist in your life.

You have to start CHOOSING to take charge of the priorities in your life. You spend alot of time on this board, making excuses, and explaining your positions. Your time would be better spent, on honoring your family responsibilities first. You shouldn't be online until your housework etc. is done.

You have to decide to change yourself, and not keep blaming others and your situation. You cannot change anyone or anything else. But, once you start taking action, things will improve. Talking online, while a pleasant diversion, is not going to solve anything. You need to balance your time more effieciently.

Less talk, and more action, is all that is called for here.

Good luck!

[Sue]

Thanks Slone,

I hear what you are saying. I always had an impecable imaculate house and EVERYTHING in my life was organized to a T.
Its not that I dont know how and need to make excuses being I have been there.
Life was worse then than it is now!

yes I do on some days spend a lot of time on line, no I dont sit here the whole day.
I work on things and then pop in here and go back and work more etc. On the times I have been here a lot in the day is when I have been so upset with things going on I turn here and feel like screw everything else. I end up getting the suport and advice I need to get back on track.

When I used to kill myself keeping everything perfect I negelected myself (not my appearance, my inner self) and catered to everyone elses needs. I started from 5 in the morning and went non stop until 11 at night. I didnt sit down I even only used the bathroom 1 time when I woke up and 1 time before going to sleep. I ate my meals as I worked. I took care of everything the only thing my H did was go to work. after years of this wore my self down and with the abuse of my H I mentally wore down and fell into depression, do you know whats it like to suffer from depression?

I have a cousin who is much like me has a large home and 3 kids and keeps everything imaculate she says she sees the diference in our h's and the way we are treated and says she knows thats the problem. she went into more detail but I dont think its really necessary if you have followed my posts you know what my life has been like.

working on yourself is very important. I put a lot of energy into working on myself and tyring to change a lot of learned behaviors. I also learned a lot from this site that I just didnt understand before that helped me to understand my H more and myself. I think now I am actually in more of a "normal" place of problems and issues. I have been trying to cut back on my time here and only come here for a while in the mornings before my kids wake up and thats it. It seems as soon as I decided that, people were asking for my help and I have a hard time refusing to help people when I know how much they are hurting and I know I can offer insight from when I was there.

Since you have kids you should know there is never a time when the work is done. I have a friend who used to come over at 11 in the morning just finished cleaning her house that was much smaller then mine and 1 child, say you are not done yet. she would hang out and watch me go all day and just figure there must be something wrong with my system. Well now she has 3 kids and she calls me saying oh my gosh I cant believe you didnt used to ring my neck! I now know what you were going through and I dont even have it as bad because my oldest is 6 years older. Mine are all close in age and I had 2 in diapers for a long time! the first 2 then just one for alittle while when I was pregnant with the third and then the middle one and the 3rd one. And she now knows what its like to be cleaning all day and having the kids going behind her undoing all she does as she goes. thats why its never done.

Many would ask me how I do it? so many would say I couldnt do it. Its not just the house and the kids its how incredibly disruptive an abusive alcholic can be in your life. I would reply you just DO it, you have to you dont have a choice.
So believe me I know what you are saying.

I must admit to you, I know you are trying to help with constructive critism and I do agree with you. However I have read some of your posts, the first one being to Tina, and I do think what could be helpful is to maybe take some of the unecessary attitude out. It was reflective in Tinas reply to you going further into detail then you had take back much of what you said. I was quite impressed with her for not letting you have it, but that really dosnt solve anything, and I hoped you might have learned from that situation.
I guess it reminds me of those people who have no idea what it is to walk in your shoes but tell you how it is.
Yes its posible to be superwoman for awhile and it certainly sounds like you have done it. I think thats great you manage to do all you do and I commend you. when you are looking down at others saying well hey I did all this and I did it, perhaps there is more to take into consideration.

I hope you dont ever have to do it all while fearing for your life and being woken up and thrown around and punched in the legs for refusing to have sex, have a gun at your head when you say you are going to leave, and being discustingly sexually assaulted on a nightly basis, being choked to the point of starting to black out for saying a comment your H didnt like. I existed years like that and it broke me down. the last year and half has been much better in comparison but still incredibly dificult while trying to recover and learn tools in dealing with his behaviors. I am not trying to get your pitty I dont want it. for a long time I kept my life private for a big part of not wanting anyone feeling sorry for me or having to watch what they say around me or just feel bad. I guess what I am trying to get you to understand is, some people go through a lot and it takes time to recover and heal and they have a really hard time being perfect during that time of getting back on track, and they have to finaly put themselves first to get themselves back before they can take care of everyone else you must take care of yourself first so you can. Maybe you can keep that in mind as you help others at this site. Because most people that are here have been through plenty and arent working on 100%.

I chose to let my house be the sacrafice being I still give 100% of myself to my kids. I tried to go out of my way to take care of my H, and help him with his insecurities and fill his needs so he could stop being so emotioanly abusive and this has worn me down. Yes I should have left a long time ago! my mind was not thinking very clearly I was trying to do the best I could for my children and having grown up with pretty much no parents around I wanted to give my kids both parents, I thought I was sacraficing myself for the benefit of the kids. I was wrong. There is so much I just didnt know and am still learning. So yes I did put a lot into this site to help the people going through a hard time to understand and in return I got a lot from it, but now it is interferring with where my life is now and thats why I have said I am cutting down and trying to just work with my thread. I realized this has become an escape for me when I am hurting, I also realized I am not totally over the past as much as I try to keep "acting as if" I am. I am getting somewhere with the help I am getting here.

well there now I have already spent more time then I wanted to and my goal is to get caught up this weekend by pulling the old go day and night till its done and here I am not just "doing" it!

I hope you didnt mind my constructive critsim, because I didnt mean to be offensive either.

I do apreciate you spending the time to point out some things that could improve some of the problems I face.

Sue

[slone]

Sue,

I had to think back to what, Tina's reply, you were referencing, because she and I have become such good friends now, off the board. And, you are right, I did not know her whole story. And, I immediately apologized to her, which she graciously accepted. Your need to criticize what I posted to someone else is interesting. Tina and I handled it between ourselves, and she understood my heart and motivations.

I don't think I have an attitude. What I have is an impatience with people, who constantly claim, that they are looking for solutions, yet do nothing BUT complain. They never seem to actually implement, any course of action. That is not necessarily directed at you. I understand why you come to the board. And, I am glad that it has been such a place of solace for you.

I feel it is inappropriate to try and compare people's degree of tragedy. Pain is pain, and everyone's pain is valid. We all have our challenges, and we all do the best we can, just with varying degrees of grace.

I only posted to you, because you seem so overwhelmed by life's ordinary daily chores, that I pointed out the obvious...less online time. But, you took it as me looking down on you. I was not. It was just a suggestion.

You will obviously get a handle back on things, when you choose to, because the issues are not about housekeeping.

[Sue]

Slone,
thanks again, you helped me to figure something out.

first I will address your post.
" Your need to criticize what I posted to someone else is interesting. "

the reason I mentioned your post to Tina, was because it was the first one of yours I recall reading and honestly not many others. When I had first read it I was shocked at how in your face you were to her and so presumptious of her situation. When she replied to you the way she did I was very impressed with how she handled it however I wondered how she personally felt when intially reading your post to her. considering all she was going through and comming here for suport and advice and getting what she got. When I received the post from you the other day on the thread I started asking the advice from guys to help me with comunication with my H. I was very very upset to say the least and I truly just wanted another way to phrase things so he wouldnt take what I was saying the wrong way again. Yes I was venting at the same time but I truly was looking for solutions. When I read your post it hurt to read and I felt defensive. then I rememberd a post Michele had written the other day
where she said:

quote: Why do some people read feedback as critical while others hear it as helpful. I think it has to do with the strength of our "emotional immune system" at the time. If we are feeling defensive, hurt, lost, we are more likely to interpret things from a negative perspective. If, on the other hand, we are feeling clear, strong and centered, we are more open to hearing even somewhat challenging feedback. In favct, when we are at our best, we can let "inhumane" feedback roll off our backs.

so I read and reread your post taking out the parts I felt as unecessary attitude.

All that was called for, was an apology, and for you to accept the responsibility, without trying to shift the blame back onto him, for "forgeting" to remind you...come on!

I already tried to aplogoize to him and take responsiblity. It fell on deaf ears and he kept on and on at me I began to feel very upset by this and pointed out he forgot as well, so why couldnt he be more understanding of my forgetting. I dont believe in blaming someone for not reminding you to do something they requested, he and I have agreed to remind each other when we ask for it when things get hectic. I wasnt trying to shift blame I knew I messed up and was not denying that, I was trying to get him to quit yelling at me and being so mean to me when here he forgot about them as well.

I dont sit around blaming others for my life, I have often been told by the people close to me to quit being so hard on myself and quit blaming myself for everything. I really dont see where blame or fault really matters, to me its more about this is the situation now, what can we do about it now to resolve it.

anyways I was able to find the majority of your post very very helpful, except for the "come on!" I think that I just felt put down when I was already feeling really miserable.

so when I critisized your post to Tina, it was because I thought from what happend in that situation and after finding out the whole situation and having to apologize, I thought that would have been a learning experience for you to not post as if you have all the answers and you are telling some one how wrong they are, or perhaps to maybe think more of others feelings when replying. there are ways of saying what needs to be said with out being so "in your face" (for lack of a better term at the moment)

To me I had just been through a rough couple of days and was trying to get back on track. This morning I posted a situation that was a misomunication that happend last night that my H and I tried to resolve. we both were trying to figure out why we have this problem with only each other. I was hoping for input on how to communicate better in that situation in the future so it dosnt end up a frustrating experience.

I already am frustrated with my house situation and have to compete with the past me who was so perfect it makes me sick. I talked to my counselor a little about it the other night. I said I have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other. here I was always known and made fun of for being overly organized and never forgetting anything to now I am a wreck and cant remember a darn thing! I am constantly forgetting things. He sugested it could be my medication and that it has been known to cause forgetfulness. I laughed and said I would love to just use that as an excuse but I know I just have not been implementing my organizational skills.

I know I get so emotionally upset by fights with my H it throws me out of wack and I feel like I just cant function. I am not blaming him. I am trying to learn how to not have the comunication problems to begin with where Isee the same arguments occuring I have tried to explain things diferently and he dosnt believe me so I feel like okay now what. so I come here to ask for diferent ways of phrasing things that maybe men interpret better in some situations I dont know. I am trying to really practice detachment and sometimes I am feeling really focussed and centered and manage to get through disagreements unscathed. Its hard because he is very ilogical at times and I try to listen and understand him and I have a hard time deciphering when its just him being irational or its just a situation where we need to negotiate or agree to disagree. I think about it so much and get so frustrated.

here you said"
"I don't think I have an attitude. What I have is an impatience with people, who constantly claim, that they are looking for solutions, yet do nothing BUT complain. They never seem to actually implement, any course of action. That is not necessarily directed at you."

well I did feel you were saying that I am constantly claiming to be looking for solutions yet doing nothing but complaining. because in the previous post you said this:
[i]You spend alot of time on this board, making excuses, and explaining your positions. Your time would be better spent, on honoring your family responsibilities first. "

and I am suposed to believe that was not directed at me.???

one of the ways to find solutions is to figure out what the problem is, and its not always obvious. many inventions are made simply by listening to complaints.
I have been trying so many diferent solutions to problems I have with my H to no avail I got very frustrated and vented.
I dont believe all I ever do is vent. However even though I did a whole lot of getting my frustrations out and venting and complaining during that thread I also did a whole lot of solution figuring from the feed back, if you read through that entire thread you might see that. My H complains that I am too solutions oriented, always trying to solve problems. this is where I have been practicing active listening! thats been a solution to stop being so solution oriented with my H

When someone is very upset and venting their frustration I dont think its fair to make a judgement of them at that time. I think there are suportive ways of giving advice to people who are already down.
You dont know all I have been doing,I dont think, as far as implementing solutions. Chris has been helping me for a while. yes I complain when they dont work, we should feel safe to vent here and let this stuff out rather then hold it in. the way I get it out is write it out and I feel better. however posting it is more constructive because then others can look at it see things from the view of not being emotionally and see things I dont. I also reread my writing and am able to learn things from my posts.

I had already come to the decision it was time to cut way back on my online time. and I had posted a while back when I was still in I need suport that I wasnt going to be posting on others threads only mine because I just didnt have the time. Then others were posting questions to my threads. I have gotten so much here I dont feel right about not giving back. I still managed to do great for a while but then when I have a major upset I come here and I know spend way too much time here. I love learning things though and love to read as much as I can and reflect on things. both reading and writing here is great because you learn so much for yourself even when trying to help someone else. So I felt okay about being here so much when I am very upset because I feel like I get the most out of my dificult situation. But now its also contributing to problems, just like you pointed out.
Anyways I just thought if I could find better comunication alternatives to use to not get stuck in the same traps I could avoid having days like I did last week.

here you said:
"I understand the temptation and the lure of the computer, but I cannot believe that you can't exercise more discipline. Exactly HOW gigantic IS YOUR house that you cannot catch up?"

Its really not about temptation and lure to the computer and I think I have more then explained that already.
So you were not being sarcastic and putting me down when you asked how gigantic my house is that I cant catch up?

its large but not gigantic. my problem is, I am working hard and right behind me is the undoing working hard. It takes my constant effort all day to just do regular cleaning and upkeep. then trying to do the extras of having to reorganize literally everything in my house. I had the kids clothes organzied. off season stuf packed, out grown stuf packed to give away or to be grown into by a younger one and all the things they curently wear put away. then they decided while they were suposed to be cleaning their rooms to undo all the totes I had packed and mix them all up! they took everything out of the linen closest and proceded to do the same thing every where. many of these things happend while I was cleaning elsewhere or cooking. when I spend the time reorganizing then I fall behind on other things. I felt so overwhelmed by it all i just felt like forget it all. I have been through this countless times. I would rather come here and learn to deal with my other situations. well I felt like I got to a point with my relationship with my H to where I could take days off and not come in and I find myself thinking about everyone here and wanting to know how they are doing. Anyways I sat down wrote out all my problems and solutions (as far as the house is concerned) and was so excited and geared up and felt totally empowered. Then I had that blow up with my H and I let it break me down and disrupt everything I was geared to do. Anyways I feel a back on track pretty much and am attacking it all again. today I accomplished alot! I feel good pretty much on schedule. I felt bad about my post and wondered if I misinterpreted your post (in thining again about what michele had said to jude the other day) I wonderd if I came accross offensive in my post. so I came in during a quick break to find yep it appeared I offended you.
So I am very sorry about that.

Okay now here is where you really helped me realize something.
earlier I mentioned I found it hard to believe you were not looking down at me etc. when you said I misinterpretated what you had posted. I thought does she realy expect me to believe that??? then it hit me, hey thats how my H must feel! When I say something he misinterprets then refusing to believe me when I explain it another way so he can understand me.
then rereading that part I posted by Michele it totally made sense!!!
I was thinking I know you were only trying to help me from what you could see was going on with my life and you were merely pointed out what I had already come to the decision of. And I was defensive anyways.
I honestly wasnt tyring to be offensive to you in my post to you, I really felt you come on a little strong and presumptutious and perhaps you could work on that a little and take into consideration most people here are not really at their peak and are feeling down and warn thin, they could use more "suport" when giving advice. after you get to know that person and their whole story and you feel they are in need or recptive to in your face advice then give it to them.

"I feel it is inappropriate to try and compare people's degree of tragedy. Pain is pain, and everyone's pain is valid. We all have our challenges, and we all do the best we can, just with varying degrees of grace."

this is true, however sometimes when dealing with people they are situations where there is much more on some plates then others and fortunately I dont have any more time to go into that because breaks over I have to make dinner and I wont be back for a couple days.

so to anyone who made it through this, could you please offer me some solutions in the comunication question I had form my first post this morning... please thanks in advance!

Sue

[slone]

Sue,

thank you for further explaining your position and thought process. I see your point. But, believe it or not, most people I post to, actually find me very supportive and insightful. But, you are right that my style can sometimes be VERY direct. I usually get very positive feedback from my postings, but obviously, as with you, not always!

I think that a diverse board, is what makes it so effective. And, I do agree with what Michele said, it does probably depend for all of us, on our frame of reference at that moment.

I was being tongue-in-cheek with you, when I said, "come on". But, someday when you're abit more distant from the situation, if you look back at it, I think you will see what I was commenting on.

And, I was using the same "technique" with you, in commenting on why you weren't getting the house cleaned. I know that you know, it is not an insurmountable task, and I hoped that you might see, how it sounds to make it seem, as if the issue really is the house, that's all.

We all post in different styles, and I respect everyone's right to do just that. If I post to someone, and my attempts to offer help and insight, are ineffective, due to my style or a personality difference...I move on.

Our individual energies, just connect better with some people than others...there is flow. Clearly, you and I do not share that. My posts were not meant to upset you, but, perhaps just jolt you abit, sometimes hearing things from a different perspective, can be useful.

I really do wish you only good things, even if that did not come across, in my posts. Good luck.

~Slone

[This message has been edited by slone (edited 12-12-1999).]

[Sue]

Okay I tried to not come in here this morning and talk about what happend last night. I was trying to have the attitude of today is a new day and I am going to let it go. A big part of that was to not let my emotions get to me and slow me down because I am on a mission and have my schedule and list of goals to accomplish around here. I am trying to employ slones advice of less talk and more action. I just cant stop thinking about it and how to handle it. I hope by just writing it out now will make it stop, it usually does.

heres what happend.

last night H got really drunk, obvioulsy he broke a boundary rule of no drinking here at the house. I waited till I went to sleep, then went out and got booze, I know it was the hard stuff I could smell it and he was very drunk and sluring his words.
He woke me up all mad at me because our front doors no longer squeak. He wanted to know who fixed them and why and if I really think I am fooling him. who was here was there a man here etc. I said I dont know anything about the doors, no I didnt fix them, and no no one was here goodnight. (this was at 2 am) he wouldnt quit, kept at me getting angrier and angrier asking the same questions over and over and saying the same things getting louder. I said I am not listening to this anylonger I am going to go sleep downstairs. I went downstairs and tried to fall asleep. he followed me and kept at me and would not leave me alone. I promised him I knew nothing of the front doors. He said obviously someone fixed them and he wants to know why! I tried just ignoring him as to not engage hopeing he would just give up and pass out but when I ignored him he escalated. finally he did pass out. I was laying there with those awful feelings comming back from how things were before. I kept telling myself he is just drunk dont listen to him just like I used to. However I cant help but wonder if the things he was saying were feelings he is holding in.

Now what I am thinking about today is...
should I try some sort of 180?
I always forgive him and drop it, I dont keep at him. I would think by now he would have learn that behavior from me but he hasnt so I was thinking of giving him a taste of his own medicine and seeing if he learns from it. Not accept his apology let it fall on deaf ears and just keep at him. Oh man I dont know I have the energy to act like that but it would be worth a try if it sinks in.

I was thinking of it because it worked for me here. When I misinterpreted slones posts, I learned how I make my H feel and think I got some understanding about how he is thinking and feeling and perhaps can think of a diferent way of handling things when he misinterprets me. Also I learned how I felt when I was frustrated with a situation I was in and I felt put down when Slone pointed out how much more her and others she knew accomplished...That helped me understand how my H feels when I use an example of how I handle things that I wish he would reciprocate with the same considerations. it makes him feel like I am looking down on him and makes him feel defensive, so I need to state things diferently and not use myself or other people as examples because it makes him feel like I think less of him and more of others.
Thats why I was thinking if I reacted to him the way he usually reacts to me then he can feel what I am feeling and perhaps learn a diferent way to handle things?

However I good be wrong, because I dont necessarliy believe in the addage fight fire with fire. Clearly what I am doing is not working so maybe this would grab his attention and make him think. well I supose I could try it and see what happens...

chris I have been opening up to him a lot and sharing my feelings and asking him for help as far as input and insights and perspectives from his view. so far its really hurting my feelings, because he listens and seems very suportive and understanding and later when he is upset with me he throws at me, and I know I am not misinterpreting this, its pretty obvious. and its bringing me back to wondering about the break me down to come to my rescue thing. just thoughts. I will keep trying it for a couple weeks to see if there is a change, I guess I need that armour you have.
okay I feel better, I feel calm inside now.
I am also going to really try and not come back until my house work is done! thanks slone

Sue

Slone thanks again, and yes I know you are trying to help, I dont think you would waste your time and energy posting here if you had ulterior motives. I have a friend who used to be very frank and speak her mind as she put it and anyone who didnt like well thats just too bad thats who she was and she wasnt changing for anyone. I cared for her but she drove me crazy! she didnt understand things I was dealing with and had surface answers to problems. My H said either accept her for who she is or stop being friends with her. so I did I just accepted that was the way she was. I learned about her, you couldnt speak to her the way she spoke to others, she would get her feelings hurt and become very defensive. so I communicated with her in a gentle and understanding way and she changed and became the same way. She couldnt understand before what everyone elses problems were and now she looks back and is thrilled with her changes. She has learned to be direct and speak her mind and phrase things in a more carring and suportive way.
I hoped my H could learn by role modeling as well but its not working. so now I am having to learn to change the way I comunicate with him and I am just having a really hard time figureing out how, he is another one who cant take what he dishes out and yet sees no reason to change how he dishes things out.

[Michele]

This is a heated thread, for sure. I hope a lot of learning has gone on here. Rather than comment on slone v. sue interaction, I want to say something to you,Sue. One thing I learned a long time ago, don't use logic with a person who is being illogical. It's like trying to speak French to someone who only speaks Spanish. It's a waste of time and it's frustrating. Even if you speak louder, they won't understand.

If you are talking to your husband and he acts like he's not hearing, not agreeing, not even understanding, stop talking. He understands, even if he doesn't agree. He hears, even if he acts deaf. Admitting he understands or agrees is like admitting defeat to him because he's insecure. Quit talking.

I know there are times where he is relentless. You need to do the best you can to escape his grip. Get away from him. Unless you can do this, you shouldn't remain in your marriage. And that's from the divorce buster.

But that's not why I'm writing. I'm writing because I know how important understanding and communication is to you. Well, my friend, there are times with that husband of yours, you are just not going to get that. So stop trying. If things are better, that's great. But there are certain situations that, no matter how you say something, he just won't get it. So quit trying.

Hope you understand what I mean here and know I know how hard you've been working on yourself and your marriage. I admire you for your effort and for standing your ground with your husband. Just don't let him take your soul.

Michele

[wesse]

Sue, It has taken me more that a year in recovery to learn some of what Michelle posted. My H & I have spent countless hours arguing about his feelings and reactions after his EA. He would get so argumentative and was a master at sending our conversations off on tangents. He spent 99% of his energy ducking and dodging real communication. The harder I pushed, the more he'd nit pick on syntax. We are both lawyers, so it was totally illogical for him to think I wouldn't see through his shenanigans with syntax. Nevertheless, logic failed me miserably.

Now that we are further into recover and the pressure is off of both of , it is amazing how much better I am at receiving his thoughts and recollections about his EA and how much less evasive and "less illogical" he is.

My H is an extremely bright man, but, during the months after his EA involuntarily ended, you would have thought that he did not have enough common sense to come in out of a rain.

As long as he was emotionally defending himself, he was totally illogical & my attempts at reasoning just aggravated the tension between us when any mention let alone discussion of the EA came up. His evasiveness together with all the other emotional trauma nearly drove me nuts.

Good luck with being the strong one who just backs off when H gets noncommunicative by being argumentative. I'd love to see what Michelle would say about how you address your need for honest and open communication under these circumstances. I, too have that communication need near the top of my needs list! My H has great difficulty meeting it because being open just doesn't come easily to him.

I'll pray for you, Sue!

[Michele]

Wesse,
One quick thought. Here's what i have to say about open communication. Like I write in all of my books, become a solution detective. No matter how illogical or uncommunicative your husband is, there are times when he is more so, figure out what accounts for the difference. Also, once you truly accept the fact that some of your talks are going to be less than satisfactory, you will find that the better ones happen more and more.

If not, try notes, phonecalls and email messages.

Just a thought. and one more thing. If he's willing, there are great courses to learn how to communicate better. Go to one together.
Michele

[Sue]

thank you thank you thank you!!!
Michele,
I must print that out and put on every wall in my house as a reminder! you have said something to me about that before when I was feeling so frustrated over my H saying I was lieing about the EA being a PA and the battle went on for over a year! its true I knew it wasnt and there was no convincing him of the truth so quit trying to convince him!

I guess I am just so caught up in trying to work things out because I really want out so bad sometimes but I remind myself we can work together and make things good if we try and I just feel it my responsibility to try being we have children. Knowing when to quit has always been a problem for me so there is a behavior for me to work on!!!
accept what I can not change!
learn the wisdom to know what I cant!

okay so here is how I handled my H yesterday.
I cleaned the house all day and just really didnt talk to him unless I had to. I put him in charge of the kids when he finally got out of bed!!!! I my 7 yo really wanted to help me clean so I gave her jobs while we worked and talked together it was fun and ofcourse we took breaks to make and color little paper kites and play barbies. I was not going to stop to do those things but she wanted to so bad and my mom never played with me at all so I thought whats a few minutes here and there. It worked in fine and meant the world to her, and me too.

so last night I decided to check in and I read Micheles post. I was reading it for the 3rd time when my H walked in and said
"Iknow I messed up really really bad last night. I am sorry and I didnt know what to do today, I thought you wouldnt wnat to even look at me so I tried to not bother you and I made a nice dinner for everyone"

okay I was thinking all about how in the world I was going to pull the 180 and react the way he usually reacts when I apologize for somehting. I had been thinking about everyhting all day. I was going over in my mind all the advice I have heard from everyone here and trying to figure out how was going to handle things that would get the best results. I thought about what Michele said in the above quote how things are interpreted have a lot to do with how you are feeling. I thought a lot about the exchanges between slone and I and what I stated I learned from that as far as how my H feels.
My heart told me not to react like him it just wasnt right, I cant kick someone when they are down even if its to give a taste of their own medicine.
( It worked for me before when I was at a loss in how to handle his tantrums. he used to acidently spill a plate of food when walking with it then get so mad and yell and cures and feel sorry for himself and walk out leaving the mess for me to clean, it infuriated me and there was no talking to him. So I decided to do the same thing one day. OH was he steamed and really gave me a lecture. The next time he did the same thing I repeated his own lecture to him. and it worked! he recongnized his own words! so I thought this time since he refuses to give me the way to say things to him I would make him give them to me the same way I did last time.)

But after thinking through things all day I decided to handle it diferently.
I decided I would NOT becareful to use the "I feel" rather then "you".
so I said you hurt me alot, you put me through something I didnt deserve and now you are saying you are sorry and you feel terrible and you are feeling horrible for your failure and for hurting me. So should I now react the way you have to me, should I let your apology fall on deaf ears and go on and on about how you hurt me and how you screwed up. would it solve problems if I start to yell at you now the way you do to me when I am in your place?
He said I am really sorry I really messed up bad and I dont know what to do I dont know why I am messing up so bad I dont know .....
I said do you know today I was going to react to you the way you usually do to me I was going to put you through what you put me through so you could learn to stop doing that. But I know what its like to be where you are, I know what it feels like to feel so down and frustrated with your self and to have the person you let down really let you have it. It dosnt help it dosnt fix anything hurting someone who is already feeling miserable will only make them defensive and not hear what you are saying even if its meant to help.
I said you twist the things I say doubt my words and feelings and refuse to believe my explainations when I just try to make you understand me. so I am going to let you read my thread so you can see what my thoughts and feelings are and know I am not trying to minipulate you with my words.
we read through it together, I know it was hurtful for him to read but I think he could see where I am comming from and I am being honest with him with my feelings.

I read Micheles post out loud to him and at the end where she said dont let him take your soul. I paused on that and said you know, I wonder if I should just stop trying to work things out with you or if I am just losing myself on something hopeless.
he said I dont know, I really dont know, I dont know whats wrong with me I dont know why I am screwing up, I know where we are at is because of me I see things going back to where they used to be and I dont want that and I know everything was my fault.

I watched my tone, it wasnt hard I wasnt feeling defensive or mad.

I think it went well there was no fighting no yelling just very calm talking and mostly by me and him listening.

then last night he came to bed really late and he was drunk again but didnt say anything but I love you.
I didnt take his drinking last night personally Iknow he is in a lot of pain and I know that he is trying to numb it the WRONG way however thats HIS problem to deal with.
I dont know what I am going to do or more like say to him now because he is breaking boundary rules of no drinking at home. He is trying to get away with it by doing it when I am asleep.

Wesse,
thank you for words!
sorry I have ran out of time I have to get the kids up now for school.
then I will be back in full gear to finish taking my house back!

Michele thank you so much!!!!
one of my problems is I lack the self confidance in myself to truly know when he is being ilogical, I mean it sounds it to me but then I dont feel certain until my counselor says its completely ilogical what he is saying and I cant win because he has it all mapped out.

take care all
Sue

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

I do not have any experience in drinking problems and do not feel comfortable offering any advise.

Michele has given you some great thoughts and hopefully provided you with some focus.

What I do see is that possibly for the first time in a while you have managed to take charge of the relationship or at least take responsibility for it. Your H may realize now that there are consequences if he treats you badly.

Sue I need a bit of time to think about all I have read on your thread. My first impression if that maybe this is what had to happen before your H started to change himself rather than try to change you.

Sue you handled things very well.

Chris

[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-13-1999).]

[Sue]

chris thanks and I am looking forward to hear your thoughts.
great news, John V replied to my Detaching with love vs controlling thread, he was the alcoholic H. hopefully he will have some time to help with insights on mysituation from the other side just like Ihave given insights in the mind of a WAW.

here is what Theressa sent me in response to Micheles post. I sent it to her becuase I thought it would apply to her as well.

__________________________________________________________________
Michele's reply is very helpful, thanks for sharing it with me.
Michele was spot on, I hope you heard what she said and will take it
on board, I definitely will. This is what walking away is about.

I agree there are times when my husband is also relentless, What did
Michele mean about escaping his grip? Any idea?
>
I think I agree with Michele when she says that both myself and you
may not always get understanding or communications. What's the
alternative, I guess I don't know, maybe Michele could answer this
one, how can you have open honest communication under these
circumstances?
How can you sort things out without communicating and understanding?
What I would like to say here is to retiterate something that
Covenant said to me (Do you remember covenant, he used to EA his
wife) He said "You are only responsible for what you do, you can't
contol the outcome of what others do or how they react and vice
versa. He said sometimes action speak louder than words. You need
to not listen and get out of the house when someone is acting
irrational and not listening to you and yes stop talking.

I would stop talking about your marriage for a while with your
husband.

Here's another suggestion that Dr Harley gives, you can write your
spouse a letter with the following contents however, you need to be
ready to do this, it means following through if things aren't
favourable,

Here goes:

"Listen, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If
you do you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want
to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be
unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are
not doing things I admire, you're doing things that I find
disgusting!"

If he says "fine lets separate and end it all"

Say: "Its up to you. I wanted to be with you for life, but if you
want to end it all, its your call. If you want to be in a loving
relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much
better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will
never try to force me to do anything I do not want to, you will give
me your viewpoint and let me decide if I agree but he choice has to
be mine.
If you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect
until we can solve the problem by talking about it and coming to an
agreement which we both agree which is best for us both. I will
agree to do the same with you. I refuse to be treated this way even
by a man I love."

Coveant said he agrees with the above suggestion, he also said
leaving is sometimes all one can do. I find it hard to contemplate
right now, actually getting up myself and leaving, I haven't ruled
it out though. I am being told many times how lucky I am to have
him, (This is his opinion) Then he is leaving, then he wants me to
leave, I respond by saying, If you feel you want to leave, I cannot
force you to stay, its up to you." (I told him the other day "I will
not do xxxx for you if you speak to me that way". and I have also
said "I will not listen to you if you speak to me this way".

I think for now, I would not mention problems I would just
concentrate on being polite and respectful but not bring up any
problems for a short while and see how things go. I think sometimes
if we keep at things we become too emotional and taking a break can
help.

I hope this helps. I will write about me soon.
Theressa
_________________________________________________________________
I am gong to give our conversation time to sink in before I attempt to talk to him further on our issues he usually takes a few days.

Sue

[Sue]

Okay, yes I am taking a break from my house work for a moment, sheesh I havent even gotten to house work yet, its hard to not "clean" thats one of my probs right there, anything that needs cleaning I clean it and it takes no time for things to need to be cleaned again! so everyone is just going to have to live with dirty floors until I finish organizing things then I will "clean".

so heres what happend. I messed up but I learned some things I think. 1 stick to original plans!
this morning when H woke up he said can you take 5 mins to spend some time with me, I said sure. He said okay how about a quickie? I said I really dont feel like having sex right now. he kept trying to talk me into it saying only five mins. so I said I told you I do not feel like it and started to leave. he said you gave time to that pointing at my computer but you cant give 5 mins to the man who loves you. I said I gave time to myself yes, and I am willing to give you the time you ask for however I just do not want to have sex and I started to walk out. he got mad. I went about working on my house projects and bathed my Munchie then went down stairs to make her lunch and went back to sorting all the clothes.

He came to me and said I would like to talk to you do you have time. I said sure.
I went to sit with him and have a talk. I guess I should have realized he meant he wanted to talk at me not with me!!!

He said you know I wanted five minutes of your time and you wouldnt give me that. How are we suposed to move foward and backwards at the same time? you say you want to work on things and move forward yet you bring up the past and all my faults.
I said you asked me for sex and I didnt want to. he said you stated that so I dropped it and just wanted to spend 5 minutes with you. I said you didnt say that I told you I would spend the time with you but not have sex and you pressed on for please just a quickie I really want you. He says he decided to just spend time with me because he wanted to talk to me. I said well I wish you would have told me that. He said well you kept saying you didnt want to have sex and then left. I said well usually when you get mad that I say no you say fine get out then. He said why do you have to throw the past at me and my faults and whats wrong with me. I said I am not doing that, I am stating you didnt tell me that you decided to let go of the sex issue and that you just wanted to talk to me I offerd that early in our conversation and I never knew you changed your mind to agree to that. I think that was a miscomunication problem again. I cant know what you are thinking and I need for you to tell me and express with a little more words as to what you are talking about rahter then assume I know. He said well if you dont know what I am talking about why dont you ask then? (you see same miscomunication problem as the other night when running errands and talking about Theressas email) I said I really think we need to be more explanatory with each other to avoid this. He said you just need to quit telling me my faults and what I need to change! you could tell he was really angry. I am quite proud of my self I didnt get stirred up at all and felt focussed and calm inside. I tried to just realy hear what he was saying rather then get caught up in his tones and anger.
I said you know what, this is just like what Michele was talking about in how you are feeling making a diference in how you interpret things. I think you are upset right now about how you feeling about your failures and therefore feel I am throwing the past at you. He said hell ya I am upset I am really upset and I have the right to be. I try to make a change and you bring up the past. I said I am sorry you felt thats what I was doing, I was using the example as to why I didnt realize you changed your mind and decided to change. I didnt know that this morning you woke up and decided to make a change. up until today its been the same thing for 14 years, so it will help me to know when you decide to make changes. remember when you used to tell me negatively "where did you get that from" when I would tell you what my personal thoughts were, becuase you didnt think I could think up my own oppinion and then later after some months of working on yourself we were talking about something that was troubling you and I talked to you about some personal thoughts I had. You were very touched by it and it helped you a lot and you said "where did you get that from" it hurt my feelings because I opened up to you something from deep inside me and I felt you were having the same negative remark becasuse it was the same words, however you meant something diferent by those words you meant since I was reading so much and realy working hard on myself you wondered if I read it somewhere because they were such great words. It was then I realized you were making changes I wasnt aware of and needed to learn to here certain phrases you used to say and know you now have a diferent meaning to them. I think it was something similar to that that happend this morning. I can see where we both can make changes to help us not have these blocks. right now we have to learn each others thought process and new ways of thinking compared to what we were used to before, we knew eachother so well it was simple to comunicate with few words and finish each others sentences but now we are both really changing and trying to grow and we both have diferent ways about us now and we need to get to know them.
He was too mad to hear me. got angry and yelled at me. I said listen I am talking nicley to you and really trying to find solutions here for us and I feel I see somehting that can help us. obviously you didnt learn a darn thing yesterday and I should have just really let you have it and I still could being what you did last night. he said what did I do last night I didnt even talk to you.
I said you were drunk, he insist he was not "drunk" (we have diferent interpretations, he considers falling down drunk to be drunk, I feel you can be drunk before you reach the point you cant walk)
I said well you did talk to me a little and no you were rude it was the fact that you are breaking boundaries about not drinking at home. He said I didnt drink in the house I drank outside. (theres a technicality for you!) I said I still had to smell you and see you that way and it dosnt feel good for me.
He said oh so now you are getting into my business. I said no, your drinking is your issue. I feel you are really hurting right now and are numbing your pain the old way because you dont know what to do and I feel for you. Its up to you to deal with your feelings and figure out what to do about them.
right now I feel you are too emotional for us to really have a constructive solution oriented talk so how about we talk later when you feel you have cooled down, because I am not upset right now and I feel it would be better for both of us if we could talk while neither of us is upset.
He got mad and yelled at me for not listening and being too busy solving problems and diagnosing to let him talk about what he feels.
I said I am sorry I thought you wanted to have a talk I took that to mean us exchanging ideas and talking about solutions for things. I accepted that I need to change the way I talk with you I realize now I cant use examples to explain things to you I need to find another way to comunicate then. I didnt realize you what you wanted was to get all your feelings out and for me to just listen. So I guess I did a bad job at doing active listening! I didnt recognize that thats what he was after. As soon as he said he was upset I should have realized thats really what he was after.

I had already decided I wasnt going to talk about our relationship with him for a few days but I thought he intiated a discussion about it I should have stuck to my original plan. I think right now he is feeling emotionally upset not just with me but himself with feeling so let down by himself. He needs to be heard so tonight I am sure he will want to talk and you can bet I will be activly listening.

What I have noticed though is when I am not a mess inside he cant handle it, when I am strong and in control of my emotions and focused he is angry with me. When I am a wreck he seems to be at peace.
I have always said to him it takes my misery to make him happy. It always seemed he wanted a sacrafice from me to show my love for him to prove he is more important, even if it meant hurting me. I really do think there is something to him needing to break me down to come to my rescue. I think I need to show him I can need him in other ways.

okay wow I have taken too much time out I got to still do one more kid room, the play room and the rest of the laundry, to finish my todays house attack goals.

I have been really thinking about Zyg talking to me about "balance" and slone talking about getting my priorities in line.
I do have to get my home organized again so I can think clearly. I know when the house is in disaray so is my mind, thats what slone meant by the purse and the home. so once I get back on track there I should be better able to figure things out!

I think I have been so caught up in working so hard on problems with my H because I was wanting out and I felt like either I fix things and stay or I tried and the answer is to get out, and I am so eager for the answer whether it be stay or go that I put too much time and energy into and threw my life out of balance.

okay done rambling my thoughts here!
Sue

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

Please get that book! If for no other reason than you can ask your H to read so that perhaps he understands both you and himself better.

When you are in control and calm it makes him angry? No! He makes himself angry.

Why does your being in control stir up negative emotions in your H. Maybe because he feels like he is not in control, insecure and powerless.

When he wants to talk about his feelings does he or does he want to manipulate YOUR behaviors by saying it makes him feel so and so way.

There is a big differnece between I am mad because you do not want to have sex with me
AND
I am frustrated because I treat your not wanting to have sex now as a personel rejection.

Sue, When you are listening to him try not to get manipulated into reacting to his feelings. You can certainly say that accept that he feels that way, you can empathize with him. But don't try to solve him.

One of John's Gray's lines went something like...

When a man wants to talk he has a vested interest in being right

Sue, by staying clam and collected and not engaging you will find more clarity and solutions. If you find your H getting angry then diffuse as best you can and if the talk seems to hostile postpone it to another scheduled time. Then reassure him that this is not a personel rejection of him it is a way to have a more meaningful talk.

Something that I have been thinking about for the last little while about affecting change in relationship is that it is not as important how we think, what we say and how we act, its how this is percieved by your partner that is important.

How does your H interpret your calmness when he is obviously upset...????

Something to think about while you are cleaning the toilet .

Chris

[This message has been edited by ChrisJ (edited 12-13-1999).]

[Michele]

Sue,
I know this is a "hot" subject, but i think that when men want to have sex, it often has alot more to do with wanting to feel connected to their partners than women give them credit for. Women tend to think that men simply have an itch that needs to be scratched. I think your husband was wanting to feel close to you, especially after what happened. When you said, "No," and I understand why you didn't feel like it, I'm sure he felt hurt and rejected. Often, men don't do hurt very well, they do mad. So I think the mad you got was really hurt feelings. And I am convinced if you were to ask him, he might deny it. He might not even be aware of it himself,who knows.

So you can say to yourself, "that's too bad, he hurts me so I'm not in the mood. Why should I care about his feelings?" Or, if you understand why he wants to do a quickie, instead of just saying no and walking out, maybe you could be a bit more creative. Could you please him, even if you weren't in the mood?

I know that your history around sex is complex and that it's difficult for you to leave the past in the past. I completely understand that. But if you had no excess baggage from the past, I wonder if you would be more willing to think about why he's wanting a quickie rather than feeling the instant need to vanish when you're not exactly in the mood.

Anyway, one more thought. I would love for you to get more of your emotional needs met from activites that took you out of your home and into the world. How much time to your spend away from home? You seem to spend lots of time, maybe too much time, worrying about, thinking about your marriage. There's a big world out there, have you stuck your head out recently and taken a peak?

I hope so, Sue,
Michele

[This message has been edited by Michele (edited 12-13-1999).]

[Sue]

Good morning,

okay

Chris,

"When he wants to talk about his feelings does he or does he want to manipulate YOUR behaviors by saying it makes him feel so and so way."

Well, I am begining to believe it is about getting me change my behavior because he gets really upset with me if I dont change a behavior after I know how he feels. For him he wants to be heard yes, but its also about getting me to change what I am doing.

"Something that I have been thinking about for the last little while about affecting change in relationship is that it is not as important how we think, what we say and how we act, its how this is percieved by your partner that is important."

I tried to explain that one to him over a year ago, he didnt get what I was saying. so for the heck of it, I said it to someone else and they got it the first time I said it. this is why I explain my position and thought process, its not about making excuses its about being understood. If I can understand the way another thinks I have an easy time comunicating with them. It was great when I was a dept manager. When I was an assistant I drive my boss crazy with all the questions rather then just accepting the answers, I wanted to know how she worked the equations in her head, then I was able to do the same and be on my own. I also explain how I come to the conclusions I do so someone can point out to me why thats not right if its not.

"How does your H interpret your calmness when he is obviously upset...????"

I think he interprets it as me being cold and uncaring. He has commented on that, and says I am like a lawyer in court, and I am here with all my wisdom.
here is an ex. that is not during a conversation but in other areas he gets upset when I am calm.
The kids had spilled some milk in the family room, we didnt know about if for a few days when we started to smell it. My H was very upset by the smell in our home and was ranting and raving and trying to find it. I was calm and looked around and then when I found the spot I just started cleaning it the best I could with the machine etc. I was calm while I was looking and taking care of it and didnt say much. So he started yelling at me, dont you care! dont you care there is an awful smell in our home. I said yes I do care but I am not going to scream about it it wont help me find it or take care of it and I dont need to feel worse then I already do having to smell it. He works himself up over things and gets very upset that I dont, he hates my calmness, if I am not upset I dont care, but thats not true, I just dont see how that helps. Some times I begin to get frazzled when he goes at me for a while because he escalates himself as he goes. He will start out talking calm and I respond calm and rather then dropping it he keeps going, just like not accepting apologies.

Sue

[Sue]

Michele,

I do understand the whole sex with him. You have explained it to me when I had that thread in "sexual issues" and in a Womans Guide.....
and Chris explained it to me as well.
For the last 8 months I have been avoiding turning him down. in the begining it was to avoid fighting. after you and Chris explained it, I changed my attitude and didnt reject him as an attempt to make him feel loved and secure. He wanted it 6x a day every day! Tempest suggested being more agressive and intiate more over sex him to make him want to cut down. that worked. we have cut down to 3x a day.

I realize my bagage, and I know its MY problem, and when he wouldnt quit having sex because I didnt feel comfortable with it then I decided well its up to me to work through this with out stopping. So I acted as if. That helped but I did however end up angry that he wasnt caring of me enough to listen that hey it really hurt me emotionaly and he still wasnt willing to go with out for a while for me to work through my pain. When I did feel that anger growing I started telling myself, it was your choice to go ahead and handle it that way. So I think I have let go of that anger, it dosnt do any good to be mad about it now we are past that stage. I realize I havent let go of it completely because when he is inconsiderate of my feelings, I get mad that it feels like its always me working through things and sacraficing my needs and feelings because he is unwilling to. So I know I get more angry because of it and I try to remind my self of the why of my feelings, in an attempt to control my feelings.

I was talking to my therapist last Tues night about this. He said that much sex every day for that many months and he still is insecure??? the way my H is so "creative" all the time etc., my counselor said it dosnt sound very pationate and loving it sounds more like a sex addiction.

Last week when he blew up at me and gave me hell for a couple days, I decided thats it, I am so tired of doing everything he says will make him feel loved, because everything he complains about I work hard to make that change and he just finds somehting else to bitch at me about, and I think he always will. He puts me responsible for his happiness. He told me I am the dictator of his happiness. Thats BS. and if I keep not considering myself and keep taking care of everything he wants with no reciprocation, resentment is going to grow, becuase I have to work hard at not letting it.

Yesterday morning when he wanted that quickie. I didnt want to have sex or anything to do with it. Yes he did hurt me and I did not want to connect with him in that way. Why?
1 I was sick, have bad sore throat, head and chest congestion, my back ached from all the work I have been doing and I have a bladder infection and all the fun that goes with it.

2 he had just woke up not even got out of bed yet, and wreeked of alcohol.
He knew how sick I was and how I was feeling.

3 I was very unhappy with him and just wanted away from him. I did offer to spend time together just not having sex. we could have just cuddled together, but I really didnt want to smell him anyways.

I decided, I didnt want to do anything with him and I put myself first for once. Putting him first for months hasnt got me far I dont think. I think I have a spoiled brat.

what I didnt consider, what you mentioned, was him wanting to connect with me after all that transpired.

I did however ended up having sex with him later on in the day after he was showerd and a few hours after the disagreement.

I told him last week after all the drama, that I am putting more energy into my own needs because taking care of him and getting no where is wearing me down. of course right away he asked if I was still going to be faithful, first thoughts of his are always about him!

I did talk to him about how about just cuddling and hugging instead. he says well we do that at night as we fall asleep.

I was thinking about how the more one partner does the less the other does. we seem to have an extreme imbalance. It seems we both do all the thinking about him and his needs.

about the other thoughts.
No I just dont get out! I want to and when I talk about doing things and getting involved with things, he gets upset and worries about it interferring with my responsiblities at home to the family.
I am involved with the girls drill team and they needed to earn money so I got involved with planning fundraising and my H brought up the responsibilties etc. At first I was mad but I could see his point.

My closest friends and family all live far away.

However I am planning on going back to school soon, I think that would be good for me. I was an econ major before and loved it but really dont want to go back to the business world. I am thinking more in a field where I can help people.

I do feel like I spend too much time working on my marriage.
I think its because I just want to know if its going to work or not so I can get out if its not. I am tired of being frustrated with him.
When I take care of me and the kids. remember when you said to me a while back to give my love to my kids and friends who can reciprocate.... well I guess I have to go back to that. Okay I didnt say that well but I think you know what I mean.

He was complaining I wasnt working on the marriage and just working on me....
and neglecting him. I didnt neglect him just wasnt going out of my way as much as I was.

Sue

Oh my gosh! I forgot today is my Birthday, I just got a card from a friend. ahhhh I am 31 today!

[This message has been edited by Sue (edited 12-14-1999).]

[Carey]

Sue-
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!

[Sue]

Thanks Carey!!!

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

Someone around here having a birthday? .

No solutions or problem solving today just have a great day and enjoy the special person that you are.

Chris

[Michele]

Sue,
Happy birthday, and I hope it was!!!

Sue, you know it's impossible for me to keep up with all the details in everyone's life on this board. IF I did, I'd be out of work and divorced myself! Although I know a lot about you, I must admit that I didn't know how much sex your husband wants each day. I would have to agree with your therapist's assessment of the situation in that case. And, since you explained how you were feeling in more detail, I really can understand your reaction when he wanted sex that morning.

So what to do. I like your new strategy. YOu need to put your energy into you children, people who love you and into getting yourself involved outside your home. I think that will be your salvation. I think you will be able to see yourself and your marriage more clearly when you are in contact with others. I know the people on this board help you a lot and that is wonderful, but they aren't a substitution for real live friends and/or co-workers and enjoyable activities that you are depriving yourself of right now. Yes, you have responsibilities at home and I'm not suggesting you neglect your children, by any means, but you need to replenish yourself. Stop trying to convince your husband you are a good person (I know this is old news). YOu are a good person. Go take better care of yourself. If he loves you, he will want you to be happy too.

If you're worried about being away from the kids, do some activities with other adults who have children. Just GET OUT OF YOUR ROUTINE!

Happy birthday again. Hope you are happy today.
Michele

[Sue]

Michele,
thanks so much for your help and time.
I dont know how you give the time to this board you do but I know its extremely apreciated.

I was thinking alot about how my life is so routine and I have deprived myself of so many things I really miss, in an effort to "fix" problems so life can be good. In doing that I am putting myself back in my old place of taking care of everyone but me again. I have been getting my emotional needs met here at this board. when I can give to others and actually help them it feels so good to me, and thats why I was thinking of going back to school to do something in a field where I help people rather then back into business.

I was thinking about what I have read about depression. How stay at home moms are high risk for it because they dont have other areas in their lives to counter the areas they are having problems.
this is where I really need to practice more balance. If I have other areas to excell in perhaps I wont be as affected by problems with my H. I noticed I spend pretty much all my time reading and trying to figure out how to fix problems either with my kids or my H. I havent painted, or gone bike riding, or skating for a while. I used to go for runs and when I would get back my H would be going nuts with the kids so I got a treadmill so I could run at home. I find too many solutions I think. Sometimes its just not going to have to be me changing what I do to make everyone else happy.

I was worried about going back to school or work because H is so worried about me meeting someone. I was hoping to get him feeling more secure so I wouldnt have to go through all his drama when the time comes. As it is I hear about everytime I as much as talk about it. I have learned a lot of tools and I guess I just will handle those situations when they arise.

Where I have a hard time is he thinks once I know how he feels about something then I should comply and if I dont it means I dont love him. He says he does want me to go back to school etc. but he is very insecure about it and I should know why and thats what I did. Boy for someone who dosnt want his past thrown at him he sure does a lot of bringing mine up. Thats what bugs me! the double standards! grrr. okay well I just dont have much to add.
I am going to definitly spend more time taking care of me and putting my energy into me at least whats left over after the kids, cant help that, hey they are part of me
I think its time to go over my goals again and make some changes.
Like I tell so many here, their spouses journey is theirs, focus on your own.

Sue

Yes Chris I will get that book as soon as I can, I promise!!!
I was thinking the same thing as well.

[Michele]

sue,
I am glad you are going to put more into yourself. That's wondeful. I really mean it. I want to add one thing about your post.

Stay-at-home moms might get depressed not because they don't have things to distract them from their problems at home, but because we all have to be happy as individuals in order to have happy marriages. Some women feel completely fulfilled being home with their families, and that's fantastic, because in an ideal world, kids do best with their parents.

However, some women don't feel fulfilled and they expect their husbands to make them happy. Ha! It doesn't work that way. YOu have to love what you do and then want to share your life with your partner. Your partner can't BE your life because your partner has his own life and his own needs. Too many people have unrealistic expectations about marriage. I love my husband to death, but if I didn't have the kids, my work, my family, friends and some hobbies,I wouldn't be fulfilled. He can't do that for me. I love being with him, but he can't fill my cup completely. I have to do that myself.

I'm not saying that you are expecting too much from your husband...but I am saying that you need to make you happy. don't let the kids get lost in the process, but Sue is responsible for Sue. I know you know this, I am just seconding the motion. Take care,
Michele

[Sue]

Michele,
THANK YOU!
I know you hear that a lot here, and I sure wish there was words that expressed more then that.
It feels good to know I am on the right track because I second guess my self so much.

I was thinking about everything. I was feeling better when I was taking time for myself. I had added Tae Bo to my regular work out for some change, and I took up painting for a completely diferent hobby. My H's blow ups didnt bother me as much.
Now I am so focussed on him tyring to "fix" his insecurity problem I do get affected by his blow ups more easily. I just felt like his insecurity is my fault.

Here I have been encouraging my H to go ahead and do all his things he does so he can see what a diference it makes in his life and let me have a life. But I should be the one letting me have a life. Even though I kept trying to explain to him your happiness has to come from within, and I am not responsible for making you happy. I still somehow did end up taking it on me. I was doing everything I could to make him feel better about himself and the marriage so he would let me be and instead I quit doing my things and was way too focussed on him and thereby getting frustrated when I couldnt do what I knew I couldnt do, I cant "make" him happy. Well obviously I didnt learn that lesson well enough the first time around hopefully I got it down this time.

I feel better and a huge weight lifted just knowing I am making this change and putting my focus back where I do have control and thats me.

I am going to listent to the Fire your shrink tapes again.

When I told my counselor I was trying to help my H with his insecurity and I am kind of looking at it like a project. He told me as long as you dont stop doing the things that are important to you thats okay.

I do find being a stay at home mom fulfilling but I am naturally an active person and need to get out of the house way more then I do. hey a need!

okay anough babbling.

Sue

[Sue]

Chris,
I am going to get that book today for sure.
there is a bookstore next door to my counselor and I have a session tonight.

Theressa has been sending me information from that book. she just sent me the section on emotional needs.

thanks again for all your suport, advice, male insights, and keeping me looking forward whenever I started to look back too long.

yes I know Ineed to start a new thread because this one is soooo long! one of my new goals is going to be much shorter posts!!! I go back and read over my threads and I feel like saying shut up already to MY posts
anyways I dont know what exactly my new thread will be because I have done a lot of thinking lately and am need for some time to just digest and get my plan together.

Sue

[ChrisJ]

Sue,

I get the last word in on this thread .

I think you are ready for a major break through. Time to "act as if" ????

Race you to the perfect marriage

on your mark
get set
go.

Chris

P.S. I jumped the gun a little