NikkiB #15 (moving to Piecing) - DivorceBusting.com

Hi everyone!!

Wanted to start my very own thread over here in Piecing land.

I've actually been piecing for a little while now - 3-6 weeks depending on what date you go by. I hadn't joined all of you here yet for fear of "jinxing" it though. My last thread's about to lock, so I took a deep breath, and I'm finally officially moving over from Newcomers.

Look forward to meeting/getting to know you, learning, and sharing.

Here's my Prior Thread (which I'll keep posting to til it locks).

Nikki,

Welcome! Looking forward to following along....

Sven

yay nikki welcome over here hun. Well done on getting to the picing stage. i hope you have lots and lots of sucess. Will keep popping in to see how things re going with you and yours lol

Hugs HB

Go Nikki go! Keep pointing out the potholes for me $;\)$

-JDK

hope everything went well for your pup!

about your H being strangely curious of the phone calls. ya, my H does that a little still. Just remember, you will have to prove your trust to him as well. I know that doesn't seem fair, but because of what he did, he is going to have those concerns for you. I forgot what someone else called it.

So just be careful, don't get upset, but just know you both will be building trust together.

Congrats on making it to piecing Nikki $\:\)$

Sven, HB, JDK, ST, UA - hi!!

Thanks so much all for the very warm welcome!! I like it here. $\:\)$

JDK - doin' my best on those potholes... I'm sure I'm missing a few, but hopefully you can miss some of the biggies at least!

ST - good reminder on the phone calls. I know we've both got some trust to rebuild - although I must say, at least for my side, it's coming back a lot faster than I could have imagined. Hope it sticks!! It feels like it will but we know how those emotions can pop up when we least expect them.

My pup's doing pretty well, thanks! Unfortunately she had more bad teeth than they thought and the 'usual' dental tech was out... soo, it took way longer than expected and they only did HALF of her mouth so far. Poor dog. She seems much better today though, just sleeping a lot. She has to go back in a week or two for them to finish the job. I feel awful but I guess that was better than keeping her under anesthesia for 6 hours, since it took them 3 just to do the first half. It also nearly doubles the cost... uugh.

I posted this on my old thread too but hope you guys don't mind a small repeat - I thought this was so touching. ST I know you've seen how my H kind of tells me things "through" other things - talking about movies, other couples, etc.?? Check out the latest one...

Last night we picked the dog up and she was still VERY loopy from the anesthesia, just looked downright miserable. After we got home she kept going from room to room - she'd stand there and whine, sit down and whine, lay down and (you guessed it) whine, then walk to another room and do the same. Then she went outside and did the same thing. I commented to H that she was kind of restless, and he said "Not really restless, she doesn't like how she's feeling and she's trying to get away from it. She hasn't figured out yet that it's her, not where she is." Then gave me a big hug, followed by petting the dog more and telling her "It'll be ok, you'll feel better again."

Interesting comments from a recently returned WAS...

wow. your H is smart! you can tell him I said that $;\)$

Hi all - long time no check in!

First things first, for those following my poor pup's last few weeks, she's doing great. Recovered from the anesthesia and acted totally normal all weekend. Still has to go back for round 2 of mouth surgery, though (shh don't tell her.. $;\)$ ).

I had a pretty good weekend overall, although having some things crop up that I'm having some trouble dealing with. Maybe (probably?) normal piecing stuff... any advice??? Here goes:

First a little history since I'm new to the Piecing board. H became "good friends" with a woman at work last year (sound familiar?). I tried to be friends with her as well, pretty much destroying my self esteem and self worth in the process. I believe my H that nothing physical ever happened but there was definitely an EA and a "friendship" that went way too far. H acknowledges that the friendship was inappropriate but still seems to feel I kind of overreacted to the whole thing, that she was "just a friend." One thing I will need at some point is for him to acknowledge how deeply the whole thing hurt me, as opposed to trying to minimize it, but I know we aren't there yet.

The bomb dropped in October, DBing since then, H moved out in January and back in April... and just now we're kind of starting to talk about some of this stuff (barely). He seems very commmitted and is doing a lot of things right, very clearly really trying to get things to work, with one exception.... PW.

So... H claimed he and PW ("problematic woman") were no longer "hanging out," but of course he still has to deal with her since they work together. A group of them will often go out after work too. Thursday night H came home kind of late, and I kind of snapped a bit. All last year Thursday night "happy hour" after work become longer and longer and eventually became kind of his "date night" with PW. So basically, him going out Thursday night and getting home late feels to me like "oh no it's happening again."

Oh also a few weeks ago I saw some calls to/from PW on H's cell phone and we had a talk about it. The calls weren't that long but also not necessary, and my understanding was that they wouldn't be calling each other anymore. But since then I've seen a few calls back and forth - and they are getting longer and longer (20 minute long call this past Saturday). Yeah I snooped.. I'm done with that now, I just had a gut feeling something was wrong and I checked the phone.

Anyway, back to Thursday night, I came right out and asked who was at happy hour. He said "Andrew and Steve" - which have pretty much become his standard answer whenever he's doing things with PW. I said "And...?" and he said "Well [PW] was there too." I didn't respond much then, trying to give myself time to process, just kind of said "Oh."

Later on, he asked me if I had plans Friday night. I said no, that I figured the dog would need lots of care still so I hadn't made any plans. H said "Oh ok well I'll come home then." Huh?? Then he said "Well if you were going out, I was going to play frisbee golf after work with some of the guys." (Yeah "the guys" right?? He thinks I am an idiot apparently.) I said "Just the guys?" and H said no, that PW was planning it. Blech.

So now my "punishment" if I GAL is H will go out with PW??? Yuck yuck YUCK!!! (no, that's not what he said, but it's sure how I feel)

I am still at a point of trying to figure out what truly bothers me and what to let slide so I didn't respond much, although distanced myself from H all night. We went to bed and I realized just how pissed and hurt I was - ended up attempting to sleep on the couch all night, I couldn't even stand to be in bed with him.

Friday I was exhausted and overly emotional. H called at lunchtime and wanted to go for a bike ride together after work, and I agreed. When he got home I mentioned how tired I was and he said he was sorry, then said "I see what's going on - I wanted you to know that." At which point we had this conversation:
(one of our biggest issues was avoiding conflict and avoiding emotional discussions so we're both stumbling around figuring this out as you'll see...)

Me: What do you mean?
H: I wanted you to know I see it. I'm sorry that my actions upset you so much.
Me: I'm sorry they do, too.
[pause]
Me: You know this doesn't have anything to do with what time you got home right?
H: Yeah, it has to do with [PW] right?
Me: Yeah. It feels like she will never be out of my life and it sucks.
H: You want me to be honest with you right?
[looooong pause while I was thinking]
H: Right?
Me: Truthfully? I want there not to be anything that you have to 'be honest' about. Yeah I want you to be honest, but I would rather you not have anything you have to come clean about.
H: I don't hang out with her anymore.
Me: We obviously have different definitions of 'hanging out.'
H: Well, I don't go to lunch with her, and I only see her after work if a group of us are going out.
Me: Yeah, a group being you, her, and hopefully at least one other person. I'm not stupid, I know "Andrew and Steve" means her, and maybe other people or maybe not.
H: But I don't go if it's just her.

... at this point I realized the entire discussion was feeling very stupid and pointless, it's more of "she's just a friend," and more of me trying to make him "get it." I should have turned it around to how it all makes me feel but I wasn't thinking very straight, so I changed the subject. We talked about our days at work etc. When we got to the bike trail H brought it up again:

H: Do I at least get some credit for coming home tonight instead of going to the frisbee golf thing?
Me: Yeah. I'm sorry, I should have said that earlier. I'm glad you came home. You get a lot of credit for that. Thank you for telling me the truth and thank you for coming home.

... rest of the night was good, we rode bikes, went out to dinner. Saturday night he hosted a bachelor party at our house so I was in a hotel, didn't really see him much til a mother's day BBQ last night. Overall a really nice weekend, but this PW thing just keeps nagging at me.

I feel like their "frienship" is starting up again, that they are having more contact, that he's making excuses to see her but just more "appropriately" than he was before. We have talked about it, I've told him it hurts me, he's acknowledged that he SEES it hurting me, and yet he continues to be in contact with her. And now I feel this veiled threat that if I do things on my own, he's going to spend MORE time with her. Sucks. Is he testing me? Seeing how far he can let the friendship go before he starts to have feelings for her? I really don't know, but something's just NOT right.

So I guess the point of my long ramble here is - what now??? Is this my problem and I'm overreacting and need to get past it? Is it an issue I need to push further with H? Do I ask him to go back to MC and we can hash it out there??? I am just really, really lost. EVERYTHING else is going so well, why am I so hung up on this, am I crazy???

Whew... thanks everyone who makes it this far!

Criminy. Just tell him it is NOT OK with you for him to have nonprofessional contact with PW.

Thanks Oldtimer. I think what hurts is I thought I DID tell him that and he's doing it anyway. It went from him hurting me but maybe not realizing it to intentionally doing something he KNOWS hurts me. And I don't know what to do about it.

Maybe the boundary just needs to be repeated.

Yes, and it's NOT an unreasonable boundary!!! This woman almost destroyed your marriage, it is NOT okay for him to be going out in these small groups with her. Either you go with, or he doesn't go.

I know we get caught up in trying to be "reasonable, trusting" spouses, but I'll say it again, this is NOT an unreasonable boundary. She shouldn't be calling him and he shouldn't be seeing her outside of work. Period. And even if this request WAS "unreasonable", your H should be happy to accomodate it just so that you don't have to worry.

Ellie

I totally agree. HE is the one who made the choice to cross the line... and believe me he did, no matter if it was a PA or not. This is his fault, not yours. You have every right to feel how you do. I would be sick to my stomach just knowing my H was still working with the woman. well, more so if there was a PA, but still.

It is bothering you because it should. It wasn't right in the beginning, and because he crossed the line of friendship, it's too late. If he really wants his M to work, he needs to keep her out of his life and yours as much as possible.

Why don't you ask him what he thinks is acceptable? If your positions were reversed, what would he expect you to do if you were in his shoes? You need to find out what he really expects out of this now. Either he can't help himself and does still have a little feeling for her (my H kept trying to put the friends thing on me too, and I'm like, I'm not stupid, you thought you loved her and she was perfect for you, that just doesn't go away overnight), or he really really thinks that nothing is going to happen again so why is it a big deal, or he's kinda feeling left out at the functions at work and thinks do I have to stay home just because she's there.

yes this totally totally sucks. you know I've been thru this time too. H txt to OW for like 4 months after he came back to me. maybe I need to ask him, what was it exactly that made you stop txting OW back? was it something I said or did, or something that you realized? I'll try to ask him. He hates it when I bring this stuff up, but I'm just like, gosh, if only he was as open as I was about this...just think how many people, especially men, he could help. oh well. he doesn't think it's his job.

like I said, I think you need to sit down with him sometime and ask him what he really thinks is appropriate. Then whatever he says, you can either say, yes, that is what I want, or this is not appropriate to me and as long as you attend functions, alone, with her involved, in my eyes, the EA is not over.

Have you said to him, okay, there is a guy in the singles group that I really enjoyed talking to, would you think it was appropriate for me to go hang out with him and some other girls or men sometime? If he says no, well then I'm thinking "DUH", but if he says ya, if your just friends and your with a group why not, well then say, okay, what if me and this guy had previously had an EA (or however you want to explain how he acted with OW). SURELY he would hate that.

Sometimes people just can't "see" it until they are put in another persons shoes. I did that with my H, but you know that I really did have someone else at one time, and I think he understood. But it did take a little time for him to stop txting her back. But for him, he had the PA and I think he had been really really pulled in to the A, not so much as your H.

okay, that got really long. Glad to hear the pup is good, and you just keep taking care of yourself. You are still on the right path.

Ellie and ST - thanks.

Ellie maybe that's it - I'm trying to be TOO "reasonable and trusting." And I guess I'm still a little shaky on fully trusting that he's back, so I worry that pressuring him on this point will make him run again. Gotta work on that.

ST - NOT that I wanted it to be a PA, but I've read a lot of times that men are more hurt by a PA while women are more hurt by an EA. Sometimes I wonder if it would be easier for him to understand my feelings if it HAD gone even further over the line into a PA and removed this "But nothing happened" element.

I think you probably called it and it's a combo of both of these things:

Quote:

he really really thinks that nothing is going to happen again so why is it a big deal, or he's kinda feeling left out at the functions at work and thinks do I have to stay home just because she's there.

But you're right, I should ask and see what his response is.

The after work stuff is hard. A big part of me thinks it's unfair to ask him not to go at all just because she happens to go too (they're all mechanics and several are friends outside of work - the after-work beer is kind of a bonding thing for them). It's the intent behind it that I actually care about. As in, would he go anyway whether she was there or not? Then I'm ok with it. But if he's going because she's there or it's basically them going and 1-2 people tagging along, it's NOT OK with me. Seems like an awfully blurry boundary though.

I have thought a lot about whether it should be "not OK unless I'm with you" but ugh.. I'm really not sure I want to put myself back in THAT position again.

I am still kind of hung up on some of the things he said shortly post-bomb I think, too. For example encouraging me to go out with other men so I could find someone else and make it easier for him to leave. So I have this fear that if I mention the scenario you described, about the guy in the singles group, that H would go "Oh great, so glad you have alternatives in mind, I'm outta here!" I need to keep in mind that we're both in a different place mentally/emotionally than we were in those days.

I was thinking more about it and realized why the whole "I'm being honest" thing got to me so much. He's trying to get off the hook for things he knows will hurt me and make it OK because he's being honest about it. ST I tried your "put myself in someone else's shoes" idea and turned it around - it's not OK for me to go jump in bed with some other guy just because I tell H about it later, right? I mean can you imagine? "But honey why are you upset I slept with another guy? I'm being honest! Don't you want me to be honest?" And all last year he was honest with me... heck a lot of the inappropriate crap took place right in front of me, literally! That doesn't make it OK. It's a step up from hiding or lying about it, but barely. I deserve better than that.

(1) You don't need to repeat the boundary, you need to enforce it. "H, it is not OK with me for you to be involved with PW outside of the office. If this continues, then I will be very hurt that you are risking the health of our M and an exciting chance we both have to build a wonderful M for PW. For me, this will certainly undermine our M, and I am scared that I will quit wanting to be in it with you."

(2) Can you check in on Donna? I won't be around much and she is having a tough time. H has been lying about PW again (uggghhh, gut punch).

Thanks Oldtimer. I checked in on Donna just now and will continue to. It's very sweet of you to mention that and help find extra support for her - thank you!!

I think I see what you're saying on the boundary. It's kind of repeating it but with more emphasis, especially on the possible consequences. I am so frustrated to even have to be talking about this. There are so many positive things we could be working on together, and going over and over this PW situation is just aggravating.

"I am scared that I will quit wanting to be in it with you"

that was a good line OT

Hey Nikki, sorry to hear you're faced with this PW crap again, hope you can work thru it with your H and use it to build your relationship instead of tear away at it.

-JDK

Thanks ST and JDK.

ST - yeah, I liked that wording too.

I realize I only posted some of the negative stuff here and really things are going SO well, except for this one issue. Lots and lots of positives all weekend long.. <sigh>.. just wish I could erase this one issue completely.

Maybe I should just work on getting her fired so I KNOW she won't be at work related events. $;\)$

Maybe H should find a new job.

That would be nice OT wouldn't it? Or could he move to a different department? I'm sure though that he may have resentment if you told him you wanted him to leave.

I think that would need to be a decision he would need to make though?

Nikki...wouldn't that be such a blessing for you though if she got fired or left or transfered?

Oldtimer and ST - yeah, I've thought about it.

Unfortunately there's not really another department - he's a mechanic, she works in parts, so they pretty much have to interact.

The reason I haven't gone there with his job is that where he's working now is SO MUCH better than any other shop he's ever worked at, and nicer than anywhere else around here. It's clean, good management, excellent pay (about 30-40% higher than he'd make anywhere else), good benefits, retirement and pension plans, enclosed shop with heating and air conditioning... LOTS of extras that most shops don't have. He told me once last fall that he'd almost left specifically to get away from her, so I know it's crossed his mind. I won't be the one to bring it up though (at least, not yet).

I know that she was looking for a new job - I generously offered to help with her resume last summer

. The mechanics are paid well but not the parts people, and she could make probably twice as much money somewhere else. I know she's been on some interviews at other places, and also know that her income dropped dramatically after her separation/D, so I keep hoping. I also know she'd be fired in a heartbeat if management found out about the sexually harassing things she does, not to mention dating one of the other mechanics.. so maybe I'll get lucky on that.

I can hope. $\:\)$ But will get up my nerve to talk to H about it (AGAIN) in the meantime.

What a temptation huh? to give an anonymous call! but don't do it. $;\)$ I think that is what I will pray for now, is that she will find another job and be distracted from your H.

Have a great night!

I can't imagine that they have any professional need for contact outside of work.

H can also take the initiative and quietly invite a few of the GUYS out for a beer when nothing has been planned. No one is going to question him excluding PW. They aren't dopes.

The fact is, there is no reason he can't have a life that exclues PW outside of work if he chooses to do so.

He can block her phone number on his phone. When he starts in on his crap about not understanding you why it bothers you, stop that cold:

"H, you and I both have acknowledged that your R with her was inappropriate and damaging to our M. Cut the crap. I am NOT willing to accept you continuing to interact with her outside of the office. It is inapproprite for you to be her friend or rescuer. She is not a friend to our M, you should not be a friend to her. I am not willing to negotiate about this. Your contact with her hurts me and our M. Your lying about it and concealing it is doubly undermining. That is sufficient reason for it to stop completely immediately. I want you to call her on speakerphone and deliver this message to her crisply and directly. Then, stop contact as you have agreed to do."

ST oh yeah - it is very tempting!! I think even the managers are kind of aware of it but aren't doing anything unless/until someone complains. <sigh> Maybe the boyfriend's wife will do it. And ST thanks for your email, sorry I've been delayed replying back! Crazy few weeks, but I will reply soon.

Oldtimer - you make a good point, he can make that choice. There are some things about it that'll be awkward but I need to stop "protecting" H from that... that part of it's not my problem. I also think I need to make it crystal clear that's what I want. I thought I had done that before, but may not have made it clear enough. In hindsight he may think he "won" the discussion about how it shouldn't bother me (I know it's not about "winning" but couldn't think of a better word to use). I like your wording - thanks.

It's funny what you said about the speakerphone. My first reaction was "I'd love to hear that!" followed VERY quickly by "But NO WAY, then I'd have to hear her voice again!" I'd be happy to hear his side of the conversation, though. It's weird how the stronger I get the more I realize just how deeply all this stuff hurt me. I guess I must have brushed a LOT of it off before, or thought I did... seems I buried it, instead.

Journaling about last night - which was WONDERFUL! LOTS of big positives.

I was catching up on chores when H said "We should go to [restaurant]." This restaurant/bar is where we had our first date, which we've celebrated all 12 years we've been together except for this year. The first year H was so proud that he had remembered our first "anniversary." To this day he can tell you that date, but has trouble remembering my birthday and even our wedding anniversary - so this anniversary has always been a pretty big deal for us. We usually go for drinks and appetizers, reminisce a bit, and "re-enact" our first kiss out in the parking lot. (ok call us silly if you must

)

Anyway it was on May 3 and somehow this year we both forgot about it. I noticed it last weekend and said "Oh wow, we missed May 3...oops" (in a casual way, didn't want to make it a big deal). H said "Yeah I know, can't believe that, I was even thinking about it when I was at [friend's] house" (the house where he lived while we were separated). Interesting.. then he said "Well we could still go, it's not too late." That was early in the weekend, so I was pleasantly surprised and happy when he brought it up again last night.

I went to get ready, came back and H had poured us each a drink. He handed me mine, then held his glass up for a toast. He held it up with his left hand - he's a "righty" - and said "To us!" That's when I saw his wedding ring, for the first time in a very long time. I didn't say anything at the time but know I got a goofy grin on my face and teared up a little bit. At the restaurant I touched his hand and the ring and said "Looks good on you" (along with goofy grin and a few tears again). H said "Thanks" in a very sweet tone. We had a great time - I was surprised how much H was into the reminiscing as I had thought he probably wouldn't want to bring up the past too much, but he did and it was all positive memories. Yay!!!

I think almost 2 hours passed without feeling like much time at all. We couldn't believe it was getting so late... did our parking lot kiss, cruised around for awhile and then came home. It was soooo nice!! I won't get into too much detail but we had a lot of fun and adventurous ML after we got home, too... $;\)$ . I joked about "So this is probably what you were HOPING would happen 12 years ago but all ya got was a kiss that night" - we both got a good laugh from that.

All in all just an awesome night - one of the best we've had in a really long time!!

And H is wearing his ring again. YAY!!!

Sounds great Nikki, keep it up! $\:\)$

-JDK

Oh wow nikki his wedding ring is back on wtg baby. I wish ours was but cant see that happening ever lol.

You are making so much progress you deserve a big pat on the back hun. i also would keep that validated about pw let H know exactly how u feel on the matter.

Keep up the good work hun
Hugs HB

ps send me the works number and i'll call and make complaint and get her fired lol

pps please visit my thread

Thank you HB! Yes, it was really exciting for me to see that ring - and even more exciting for him to seem kinda proud of showing it to me, based on the way he did it. I had some kind of weird thing pop into my head today that maybe I was just dreaming or it was only for one night, but it's still there. Yay!

haha don't tempt me on the work number HB.

I visited your thread and posted there, but in case you need an extra hug... ((((HB))))

That is soooo cool Nikki! you know, it's aweful, I have the worst memory, and usually the memories I keep are the bad ones! so i can't remember when my H put his on again. I know I told him that when he put it on, that would tell me that he wanted to be M again.

You may just wait a little on the OW thing. he may have gotten the point and may slowly start doing what he needs to do.

But what OT said about him making plans instead and not inviting OW, is a really good idea. Then he's not "missing out" if that's how he feels.

I went back and forth on the "making H end it in front of me" thing. I know some counselors make their patients do that, but I seem to think that my DB counselor wasn't for doing that. In a way, it makes it seem like your their mommy telling them what to do, you know? I really wanted my H to do that for me, but I wasn't about to "make" him do it.

maybe think about what you think is best for your sitch and see if H makes any progress in the right direction regarding this. The ring might be a good sign $\:\)$

oh. I did ask H about what he thought made him quit txting back OW. Well, he said a combination of me talking to him, and knowing what he needed to do. ug. He's so vague. I really wonder why it's so hard for him to talk about this stuff. Maybe it makes him feel less of a person because he screwed up? or maybe he really does hate that he did it, and wishes he didn't have to think or talk about it. I don't know.

So, sorry that didn't help much! $;\)$

Hiya Nikki! Just wanted to congratulate you on your move to piecing

I seem to be the one who locked your thread in newcomers with my last post

so I'm not sure if you got some of the info for your pup that I put in there?

Take care, you're doing GREAT!!
((((Nikki))))

C_M - hi! Thanks for checking in. And yes, I did get that info about my pup, thank you!! I tried to reply over there and realize it was locked, then forgot to post a thank you over here. The pet food recall is SO scary. Hope your kitties didn't get any bad food.

I actually ordered a sample pack of the kibble they mentioned on the food page, to see how she likes it. She eats Innova now, which is already a really high quality food (lots of human grade ingredients, low grain content, etc.). It was kind of good timing to feed her home-cooked chicken and rice for awhile, helps me not to worry as much about the food. I'm sure she needs a more balanced diet for the long term though.

Hi ST - thanks for posting!

Yeah, I decided to hold off on bringing up OW/PW again for the moment. Like you said I get the feeling he's slowly moving in the right direction, so I decided to give it a week and see how things go.

I do know the happy hour thing will be awkward. He can pro-actively invite other people to go, but she works right next to his spot in the shop, and all the guys congregate there before going out. So she'd know, and it would be pretty obvious he's excluding her. Most likely she would assume she's invited, and he'd have to actually tell her NOT to go... which kinda sucks for H. This happened at New Year's believe it or not - I had told H and he had told her in October/November that I was done with the whole thing, I had no control over him but I was not subjecting MYSELF to being around her anymore. She STILL tried to invite herself over for New Year's when she overheard the guys at the shop talking about our party, and she pouted when H told her no. He had to repeat it several times that she was NOT welcome and would be kicked out of the house if she showed up (I had already told H I'd call the police if he didn't handle it himself).

But anyway, I finally have realized THAT part of it is not my problem... that part's on H to figure out. I'm waiting to see if the problem happens again and will address it then, if it does.

ST haha thank you for asking your H about that, but no worries. I can see why it'd be hard to talk about and he'd rather leave it in the past.

your welcome Nikki. I wish H was more open, maybe someday, or not. Even so, I've learned a lot and I feel I can help others with that even if I don't have "his" side of it.

Thanks again ST. Absolutely, you have been a tremendous help to me and I know to many others. Don't worry about your H - your M is a lot more important than helping us here, as much as I appreciate your help!

Hey I realized the "haha" about asking H may have come out totally wrong in "web speak" - I hope not! But wanted to clarify. I didn't mean it as funny that you asked or his response, as I really appreciate that. I was "laughing" at your comment/wink about it not being much help. My H gives vague answers like that too where I walk away going "Wait WHAT did he just tell me??" so that's what got me laughing.

Quick journaling...

Things seem good with H. He's not home tonight but called very early to tell me he was going to a (male) friend's house to work on a hobby car. Happily I believe it and am not even doubting that he might be somewhere else.. feels good.

Had a funny conversation with a mutual friend tonight (will call her J to avoid total confusion). J came into our lives as a friend's (I'll call him M) girlfriend at a time when H was "hanging out" with OW/PW a lot and trying to get me to be friends with PW. So a few different times it was me, H, OW/PW, J, and M all packed into our little boat. J FLIPPED OUT when she found out that OW/PW was H's friend and not mine - said she wanted to kick PW's a$$ and honestly gave me most of the strength to cut ties with PW. She flat out said (in her very strong Welsh accent) "You deserve better, don't let him disrespect you like that, it's disgusting!" - and the same night gave a similar spiel to H. During the separation she told me that she loved us both and would support us both no matter what, but she really took me in and tried to help me quite a bit.

So anyway tonight J skeptically said "So I hear you're back together. Is it going well?" I said yes, and she said "Well is PW out of the picture?" I said "Mostly." And she said "Don't do it. Don't tolerate it, it's disgusting, it's disrespectful and you don't deserve it.." .. went on for probably 5 full minutes about PW. At the end I told her I knew, and H seemed to be breaking ties w/her, and that his personality had changed back to normal almost like a switch had flipped. Very cool reply to that - she said "Well can't wait to meet the real man, then, I only knew him when she was influencing your lives but I do want you both to be happy." Cool lady eh??

And I know even with all my GALing it's kinda silly, but I was proud I called her... it's STILL hard for me to proactively call people.

NikkiB, i am glad i found your thread. My h is back after PA/EA, and by his definition "dumped" her (meaning he said it will not work out between them). we are piecing but H is still talking to OW (claims he is not seeing her but i do not know). We are due to move FAR AWAY soon so h is saying it will only be a short so why can't he just talk to her (so she does not hurt so much?). According to him "it will be over soon". I have trouble accepting that. Reading your situation, I can seeing my own situation better and hopefully i will find a way to handle my own feelings better. thanks.

Ourcrisis - glad it has been helpful.

I really have tried to see this from H's side and it is TOUGH... I get that it's awkward and all but it's really hard for me to understand how he can't just say "Get out of my life" and then DO it. And it's even tougher to find any kind of empathy for the OW, that's for sure. I'm supposed to care if SHE is hurt???

But - now that they are back and trying to work on things, I am seeing more and more how important it is to keep expressing the hurt it causes when they're in contact, if you know about it. It hasn't come up again but I am fully prepared when/if I find out that H has called or "hung out" with her - "Wow H that really hurts, we've talked about her not being a friend to me or our marriage and it's very painful to me that you continue to have any non-work contact with her. I want to build a great M with you but I can't be sure of us doing that if you won't cut off contact with her." Or the short but sweet version - "H it really hurts that you continue to contact her outside of work. Let me know when you've fully cut off contact with her so we can continue to rebuild our M together."

I may work on Oldtimer's "cut the crap" too. I like it. $;\)$

It's a balancing act for sure... letting yourself trust as much as you can vs. knowing when you're being "played" and addressing it.

no misunderstanding the laughter! ya, I do the same thing with my H..."ok...wait, what?" $;\)$

"H it really hurts that you continue to contact her outside of work. Let me know when you've fully cut off contact with her so we can continue to rebuild our M together."

I like how you worded that last line. or maybe even say "start" instead of "continue". ?

I know this leaves a time span open of when will he do it, but after reading For Women Only, I really feel we need to let our H's make the decisions for themselves. Plus you WANT to let them make it. you don't want them to do it because you TOLD them to. You want them to do it because THEY wanted to. That is how I looked at it, and I'm so very glad I let it happen that way.

Thanks for checking in ST!

I like that wording, too. I think I like "continue" because it acknowledges all the OTHER positive steps H has been taking, but yeah, at some point this will be a critical issue if we're going to keep moving forward.

I haven't really addressed the OW/PW thing again. I need to but frankly I'm just tired of it and decided to give myself a break. I know the contact continues (not sure of the extent but I know there's still some), and I'm not ready to do anything yet. Sooo trying to ignore it for now but I know it's impacting how I'm acting around H.

I originally had a bunch of plans this weekend so I'd be pretty busy - kind of back to GALing and focusing on me. But they ALL fell through, so I've spent a lot of time with him. Most of it's been good but three different times yesterday I got hit with really bad memories of time spent with OW/PW last year and I know I was completely grumpy by last night. I found some new plans for today to get out on my own for awhile so I think that'll be a big help!

It's frustrating because I see him trying so hard 95% of the time but it's that 5% (the contact w/her) that I'm allowing to impact me too much. Yesterday he invited me to the hobby shop with him, told me really excitedly about all the stuff he was working on in the garage, asked about my day... all good stuff. We went to the races together last night and our mutual friend did great, lots of fun!!

But then... I'll flash back to the race we went to with OW/PW last year and just want to cry. Or H will mention "Hey remember when we went to XYZ" and I'm racking my brain thinking "How could I not remember doing that together?" Then he'll quietly realize "Ohhhh wait that was with OW/PW." It's so weird because he'll apologize for stuff that happened last year, but then he continues talking to her or seeing her at happy hour and acts like it's a whole different thing. I realize the contact is a LOT less (1-2 short phone calls a week at most), but it's almost like he cut off contact for a month and now thinks he's got a clean slate. Like all of the crap last year was inappropriate, but now he can somehow "start over" having an appropriate "friendship" with her. Bleh.

I DO think he's back to appropriate boundaries with her and what COULD have been a friendship that was OK with me IF 2006 never happened. I guess somehow I need to get the point across that in my mind it's too late to have an appropriate friendship with her. Sorry babe, I'm just not THAT stupid. And like Ellie said earlier - even if I AM being irrational about it, too bad, if he wants to work on our M, cutting off non-work contact w/her is a must at some point.

Anyway sorry, just rambling and doing some venting!!

Now off to go do something FUN and get my mind off it for now.

I just realized how negative most of my last post was - so wanted to journal some positives too since there are lots of them!!

- Friday night I was kind of restless - plans fell through, was still irritated about Thursday night's happy hour, etc. So I started looking up movie listings and figured I'd go either with H or by myself. H was working on car stuff and came in and said "I was thinking about going to a movie, what do you think?" I said "I was just looking up times! How funny." Then H said "I was thinking Shrek3 but maybe a late showing so it's less crowded." Completely funny, he practically read my mind. So that was kinda cool.

- Also Friday... H had mentioned a couple weeks ago wanting to go back to this really good hamburger place. I suggested it for dinner before the movie and he was all excited that I had even remembered what he said. Very sweet.

- Saturday as I mentioned he included me in a lot of stuff, and he also thanked me profusely for every little thing I did (seriously, you'd think no one's ever done dishes as wonderfully as I did yesterday $\:\)$ ).

- Last night went out and watched a friend race. She's not a great driver but getting much better, and she is such an excited and enthusiastic person it's nearly impossible NOT to join her up on Cloud 9 after a race. So that was lots of fun.

Ok.. done rambling and off to have fun as I mentioned, just didn't want this to all be so negative!!

Hope everyone's having a good weekend.

Hi Nikki...

Just wanted to stop by. I do try to stop in every once in a while and see how you're doing and I'm glad you're doing so well. My point is that even if I'm not posting much, I am thinking about you and happy for you. Take care.

Julie

hey, remember when my H cut off contact, and it probably lasted a month too! I didn't even think they were talking until I checked his phone. ya, couldn't help it. I think sometimes it's okay...I mean when they decide to commit, and then going behind your back, well something needs to be addressed.

anyways, I really believe that your H will eventually cut all contact, but it's going to be a lot harder for your H than it was for mine. All mine had to do was not txt back. Your H sees her every day. I'm sure it was her trying to talk to him again and trying to make him realize that she wouldn't do anything either, and that they're just friends and what's the big deal...so he's trying to justify it in his mind too. But he can't, and your right, it is too late, too bad.

welp, gonna read your more positive post now. $;\)$

Aw thanks Julie!! I follow your thread, too. I really admire how you deal with everything! (speaking of which.. think you're locked up girl). I still vote we all make that house in SD an annual trip... $\:\)$

The rest of this is all just some random journaling...

Had a really nice day today and boy did I need it. I was really getting caught up in a negative cycle, yuck! So today I jumped in the car to go "run some errands" - had some fun and some "chore" errands to do. Cranked up the music... but I kept thinking about H and OW/PW and just getting myself more and more upset. I need to figure out how I FINALLY flipped the switch in my head, but I did, and had so much fun the rest of the day.

I ran about half the "need to do" errands and some of the fun ones and was still just caught up in this funky cycle, then decided to really be crazy. So... background is H and I are invited to a "Pimp and Ho" theme party next weekend. Putting aside the theme for a minute (cause I do think it's kinda yuck) I decided to just have FUN with it. I've been fishing through my closet for stuff and finding nothing - H and I have been joking "Well it's probably good not to have a closet full of 'ho' clothes" - of course you KNOW I am thinking in the back of my head "Yeah unlike OW!" Anyway I stopped at a couple costume stores and didn't like anything, then finally went into this lingerie/"adult toy" store and picked out one of the only tops I might wear in public. I thought "naaah... but well.. maayyybe..." so I tried it on. It's this suede corset thing that laces up the front and back - got it all laced up and looked in the mirror and dang!!! I liked it. $\:\)$ Oh and the one that was my size also had a broken leather lace-up piece, so it was half off - and I can easily replace the broken part for probably under $1. nice!!

So I got that, and will wear it with some cut-off jeans and fishnet tights. It would actually look cute (in a good way) with a black skirt, but thought the jeans and fishnets fit the party theme better..

. I am of course now going "OMG I will never wear this in public!" but I modeled it for H and his jaw dropped, after which he said "Oh YEAH you will wear it!!!" Pretty cool.

There's a slight chance OW/PW will show up at this party too.. yuck, but it's kinda fun to think I will be lookin' sooo much better. And probably get attention for it since it's out of character for me. $\:D$

I was excited to finally get my PMA back today and need to work on keeping it, now - and figuring out how I flipped that switch, for future reference.

your positive post sounds great! keep focusing on that. When your thinking about the bad stuff, just do something to distract you. Don't focus on thinking less about it, or getting mad that your thinking about it, that will make you focus on it more...just distract yourself instead.

When he's not involved socially with her anymore, this will go away.

ST think we cross-posted - thanks for stopping in. And good point! I did just that this afternoon and I think you're right.. once I was DISTRACTED instead of forcing the "stop thinking about it," I felt much better.

Ahh I dream of THAT day when he's no longer socially involved at all...

Nikki, just want to say that your "negative post" describes a lot of my feelings towards my h's contact with OW (his is PA back to EA, and we plan to move this summer, so his excuse is even this limited contact will not last much longer, so "I should just not push"). Anyway, just want to say I have the same feelings about how now it is too late to even just have a normal "acquaintance" type of friendship because of "2006". These h, for some reason, thinks time can just roll back and act if nothing has happened.

Just want to acknowledge your feelings. And it is helping me to know someone else is feeling the same.

Ourcrisis - thank you! You're absolutely right, it helps knowing we're not alone.

So... it's confession time. I finally talked about the OW/PW issue again and I'm not proud of how I did it. I guess I didn't learn my lesson last time. I thought I was giving myself a mental "break" from the issue by not bringing it up but really, I was letting it build to the point of exploding, which it did last night. Reminder to self: address things when they happen, don't let it fester!!

Although in good news, I think it's ok. In fact I admire my H more than ever for HOW he handled my tirade. Not trying to justify how I approached this but in hindsight, me HAVING a tirade instead of bottling things up is sort of a 180, I guess. I need to find a happy-medium, but I do kind of wonder if it helped emphasize to H just how important it is to me - maybe moreso than my logical "telling" him "XYZ hurts me" - he really SAW how angry and hurt it makes me.

Long post warning... partly to fess up, partly to journal, and partly as a reminder to myself in the future.
--------------------------------

So first some good journaling - after I went out most of the day I was feeling MUCH better last night and more relaxed, just all-around better mood (yay!). H and I were having a really nice night making our traditional "Sunday steak dinner" and watching movies. At one point I was working on dinner and H made it a point to come out in the kitchen and tell me "I really missed this. This is one of my favorite things." I said "Me too - and thanks for telling me that. I'm glad you like it so much too." Very sweet, kind, loving conversation... more of him making a really big effort, too, which meant a lot to me.

Later H alluded to the time we were separated again, and for some reason it prompted me to ask "So you're glad you're back?" (wish I could remember the context, thinking about it now what a weird question to ask, but it made sense at the time). He said "yeah I'm very glad." I said "Me too." We have talked SO little about him being gone and coming back that even though this was short, it meant a lot to me. I get these nagging doubts that he came home because of money, familiarity, fear of not finding anything better, settling, etc. so hearing him genuinely say he was glad he came back was very nice.

I also got a couple of ILYs last night. H hasn't initiated saying ILY much but on a whim a few weeks back I said it when I felt it, and he did say it back in a very sweet tone, didn't sound "obligatory." So now I do say it if the mood hits me (never "obligatory" on a call or anything though). He seems to like it, and usually says it back - often with a hug or hand squeeze. Last night it was during the movie and he pulled me over to snuggle up with him on the couch. Very nice!!

... and then, the bad.

Shortly before bed we were talking about the upcoming party and I asked what the odds were that OW/PW would be there. He said he wasn't sure but probably not. Then, I just flipped. I can't even believe the stuff that came out of my mouth. I don't even remember all of it and most of it was repetition of the same few things just phrased different ways anyway. The gist of it was "I hate that f'ing woman and what she does to peoples lives, I can't stand her, she's a disgusting whore who gets off on ruining people's families and making women feel like s**t..." and it went on and on. Seriously NOT like me, I honestly don't know where this rage against her came from because I haven't felt much of that towards her in a long time (usually it's more pity than rage).

... and then without so much as a pause... "I can't believe you still hang out with that b**ch after what she did to you and almost did to us, and after how rude and disrespectful she was to me. How can you be friends with someone who treated me like that? I'd never hang out with someone that treated you the way she treated me, it's disgusting. And yet you go out to happy hour with her, talk to her on the phone... "

I went on, and on... probably 2-3 minutes but it felt like an hour. I didn't even shut up long enough for H to get a word in edgewise. (no, I'm not proud of this at all). When I finally stopped for a minute:

H: But she's just a friend.

OMG.. I thought I was going to scream.

Me: That's bull***t and you know it. If you have to justify a friendship then there's SOMETHING WRONG. Do you think I'm stupid? All of this STARTED as just a friendship. So now you're starting again? How long before you're convinced again that you're miserable with me and moving out? And besides you already TOLD me it went too far. You don't get to start over being friends now.

H: I barely even talk to her. I only see her at the happy hour thing because it's a group.

Me: There's no reason to see her outside of work AT ALL.

H: I don't go to lunch with her anymore, don't plan to do things with her, don't really talk to her...

Me: STOP lying to me. I saw your phone bill. You talked to her for 20 minutes last Saturday. Why?

(H looked like he was fumbling and about to make excuses or tell me that I was wrong and he didn't talk to her)

Me: Nevermind, it doesn't even matter. It's disgusting, it makes me sick that you care more about being so called friends with that b**ch than you do about building a marriage with me. I don't even care if you like spending time with her, she was rude and nasty to me, I hate her, and I will not have her back in our lives. AT ALL.

H: I know you hate her but I'm not going to stop going out with friends from work just because she's there. And besides there were 5 of us. I thought before you were mad because it was only 3 of us but last week there were 5.

(...and this would be where I get fuzzy on my "boundary" because while I'd prefer he not go at all, reality is there are functions that they'll both be at due to them working together. But I don't want to turn this into "how many people were there" because it just seems stupid! Makes no sense "it's ok if there are 5 but 3 is too few" - it just doesn't. THEN I realized and brought up the next point...)

Me: But you're going BECAUSE she's there. You don't call ANY of your other friends to see who's going and who isn't. Look at your phone bill. You call her every Thursday on the way to happy hour, HER, no one else.

(H again fumbling)

Me: And seriously, you can't f*ing drink beer with anyone else or anywhere else, you HAVE to go with her, and to the place you two went all last year??

H: It's not "you two," it's not like we went on dates or something.

Me: That's not the point.

H: Fine, I'll stop hanging out with my friends.

Me: That's not the point!! The point is find other people to drink your damn Thursday night beers with.

... this went on and on, round and round in the same argument. Finally it was bedtime and I said "Forget it. I'm done talking about this. I'm not ok with you talking to her on the phone, I'm not ok with you hanging out with her outside of work. I hate her, I'm done dealing with her, done thinking about her, done having her influence MY life."

H seemed pretty taken aback (gee wonder why huh?). He didn't really reply.

(and yes, I realize that out of all this the ONLY part that needed to be said was "I'm not ok with you talking to her on the phone, I'm not ok with you hanging out with her outside of work.").

I got in the shower, he went to bed. When I got into bed he did grab my hand and held it for awhile, which surprised me. I honestly expected him to be PISSED or at least pull away from me for awhile. But today, he called while I was in a meeting and left me a voicemail that said "It's pretty windy today... call me" in a kind of fun and flirty tone. I called back and he said "So I was thinking we should go fly the kite, it's really windy out. I might get off work early, how about I go get us some snacks and stuff and we can go have a picnic and fly the kite?"

Wow...

So... I am NOT proud of what happened, but it doesn't seem to be all bad. Like I said, need to find a happy medium between "happy go lucky nothing bothers me" (while 'stuffing' the emotions) vs. "freaking out yelling screaming banshee" though.

Now I just hope it actually leads to some action on his part... we'll see.

I am not ready to take action in terms of kicking H out, moving, giving up etc. but I AM ready to go back to something more like early DB'ing if this contact doesn't stop. GAL, focus on me, make plans on my own without worrying about H's plans, those kinds of things - and I'm prepared to tell him exactly why, and "Let me know when you've cut off all non-work contact with her so we can get back to rebuilding a great M again."

Whew.

Thanks to anyone who actually read all that!!

You did okay, girl. The only real mistakes you already know:
- don't let things build up, speak up about them when they happen
- don't pick bedtime as the time to have these conversations ( I can't EVER think of a "discussion" with my H before bedtime that didn't go awry.

Ellie

Thanks Ellie. Good point about the timing - I am pretty aware of the rest of my mistakes but hadn't thought about that one. You're right, not a good time for these things!

Nikki, I have those "blow out" sessions. I try to control it but that does nto work. H does not want to discuss anything. I have now resorted to letter writing when I feel I cannot talk to him in a sensible manner. Probably not a good DB technique but it is better than blowing up at him and I can gather my thoughts in a more logical manner.

I think it was okay. totally went overboard, and didn't have to go that far saying the same things over in different ways as you said. But it definitely was a 180, and he noticed.

Now if you noticed, he was saying things to defend himself, but because you were able to think of the thursday nights and him calling her only...that was very good....he couldn't say anything back.

So, I agree that it didn't turn out bad. It would be something you would want to do all the time, but if your very passionate about something, show some emotion! $;\)$ I think having that concrete evidence, something more direct, made the convo better. He ended up saying "fine, have it your way" and you really don't want that. My H did that too, and it didn't work. But I think you bringing up the calls and why they are happening makes a difference.

It will be interesting what he does from this point on.

Yes, I agree that if things don't change, you start GALing as you did before.

bedtime always seemed to be the time I would bring things up. I don't know when else you can? Definitely not when they come home from work. And if you have kids, not at the dinner table.

when else? Guess you need to make that decision yourself. Figure out whens the best time to talk to your H.

OurCrisis,

I do the same thing!

Nikki,
You're doing great girl! I know it is easy to get down on yourself for how you could do this better, but think about this:
1. You are telling H what you need.
2. Your H is to a point where he is willing to respond to what you ask for (even if not 100% yet).
3. You are learning from your mistakes and making changes based upon this knowledge.

Sounds like a recipie for sucess if I ever heard one.

Keep up the PMA and be a perfect Ho at the party !

SD

Great Nikki, I'm glad you finally spoke up and that you called H directly on his BS.

Nikki, while yeah, what you said in the "Discussion" (lol $\:D$ ) may have been a little MUCH at the time, I have the feeling that it was a Good Thing for your R w/H, really. I mean, from what I've gathered, while Piecing involves honesty, it's still a bit tempered & well-thought out. Not so much eggshell-walking but careful. KWIM? What you said (even the cussin') - and how you said it (w/passion) - was like an all-out This is How I Feel, Buddy! kinda thing. You flat-out told H how his current R/interactions w/[that woman] made you FEEL. There is no question about it. This is the Real You. This is Life - sometimes it's loud & ugly, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. . . And I can't help but think that your H can respect the passionate REAL You.

Anyway, just my (admittedly un-Piecing-educated) 2cents.

Hope you enjoy being Ho For A Night. (And Hope H enjoys it as well.

You never said if you found anything else interesting at the corset-store. . .)

Thanks so much everyone for posting!!

I feel a lot better about the whole thing today. It went WAY overboard (and I NEVER swear like that, still feel like I need some mouthwash.. or what's that gum commercial, Orbit, "got a dirty mouth?"... maybe need to pick up some gum..).

Anyway - I AM glad I finally got it out there and I am fairly sure there is no longer any question how I feel about the interactions with her. (if there IS still a question wow, I will be in shock).

Ourcrisis
Interesting idea with the letters. If I find this kind of thing coming up in my head often I may consider doing that. For now I am actually trying to change to where I DO express things rather than say nothing, journal about it, mull it over for a week... but obviously don't want to fly off the handle all the time, either.

ST
haha no worries, I can't even imagine doing this all the time! You're right, I really didn't want to get the "fine have it your way" thing. I do hope the logical points I made in the middle of the rest of it sunk in a bit though (i.e. about the timing of the calls).

SuperDad
Good points - thank you. haha "perfect ho" cracked me up... is there a way to do that?? Hmmm if I'm really good maybe I'll come home richer... $;\)$ (KIDDING!!)

Oldtimer
Wow thank you. I kinda thought you'd be frustrated with me for bringing this up again. Guess I must be doing something right! I am trying to look at it like "This time I said it 'with feeling'" (picture an over-acted play...).

Stillme
Discussion? I think that involves letting the other person talk... $;\)$ . But on a serious note yeah, it felt good to be honest and open instead of walking on eggshells. I need to find that balance, but you're right, I think it's good that I FINALLY removed any doubt. There should be no more question in H's mind about what level of "friendship" I am ok with and what I'm not - I really think he was "testing" to see what would/wouldn't upset me and now hopefully it's clear.

haha well lots of interesting stuff at the corset store, but I didn't get anything else. I just recently got all my stuff from that passion party I went to a couple of months ago - haven't even gotten to try out all that stuff yet so I figure I'll do that before buying more!

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Yesterday was pretty crazy but cool. I had the weirdest ever drive home from work. Always happens when you're in a hurry right? It took me an hour to drive the 7 miles! But all of this happened: a guy's tire blew out and flew off the rim right next to me (you tend to REALLY notice tires flying up in the air when you're in an open convertible), grass fire, and a 3-car accident all in the first 3-4 miles. Sheesh!! Then H called and asked me to stop for crackers - which I did, and got hit on by a guy working at the convenience store - who, I kid you not, was dressed as a woman. I'm talking long hair, earrings, fake nails, but CLEARLY a man - adam's apple, 5 o'clock shadow... the whole thing was kind of surreal but definitely got me laughing and made for a fun story to share with H later!

I finally got home and H had a cooler all packed up. We went to the park and had fun attempting to fly the kite for an hour or two (lost track of time... remember those early dating days when that happened?? love it!!). The wind was really gusty so it was pretty challenging - at one point H said "Man I thought this would be relaxing - launch the kite, tie it to the ice chest, and have a picnic!" We both laughed about that. I complimented him like crazy on his kite-flying expertise and he seemed to really like that. Workin' on boosting his ego the way the whole EA probably did.

We finally gave up on the kite and sat down for our picnic and it was so nice!! H had gotten really good food from the deli and was very proud of everything he'd picked out - "I tried to get the best stuff." Awww. I was really touched and made sure he knew it. So we sat in the park as a "family" (me, H, and the dog) and had our picnic, watched the deer come out at dusk, etc. - wow did all that feel soooo good.

A couple of times the thought popped into my head "Yeah this is nice but it doesn't mean I'm OK with the OW thing" - yuck, why does that happen???? But I pushed it out of my head quickly so that was good.

Today I have to take my poor pup in for round 2 of her tooth pulling/cleaning. Poor girlie! H asked what time she'd be done and said he'll be sure to go with me since he saw how tough it was getting her to stay still last time, so that was very sweet.

I know things are going in a very positive direction - just gotta keep reminding myself of that!

Hope everyone has a good Tuesday.

Sounds like a great picnic Nikki. Hope all goes well with your baby's teeth.

-JDK

Thank you JDK!

Just a quick pup update for those following her dental saga... I picked her up tonight. She is pretty out of it but MUCH less than she was after her last procedure. I think they had a better dental person working on her this time because they did the same # of extractions PLUS a cleaning in about half the time. Sheesh. She's whining and pacing a lot but nothing like last time where she could barely walk. So very glad for that. I bet she'll be good as new by Friday.

H is being oddly grumpy and distant tonight. My first instinct was to rush in and talk to him about it but I've decided to keep my distance - oh, and remember that it's NOT all about me. He doesn't seem specifically pissed at me, just grumpy - and has told me many times in the past to leave him alone when he's in a bad mood. So... little 180... I noticed the bad mood but didn't freak out about it, and have made myself available but not in his face going "What's wrong? Are you ok? Did I make you mad?"... so I'm proud for that. I did ask briefly "You seem kinda down, anything I can do?" - he said no, so I left it. So, yay me! Maybe I'm starting to get this stuff eh?

Good job, Nikki!!! You're a DBing champ, that's for sure. I was so happy you went off on your H, because I know it's not the norm for you and it seemed like it was needed. Sounds like you felt better and are standing up for yourself. You are setting boundaries, and seem to have a healthy sense of what is ok. Good work on giving him space last night while he was in a bad mood too. Enjoy the rest of your week!

Forgot to mention how good it is to hear the update on your pup and that the last appt went even better.

that sounds great Nikki! It IS hard to not think their upset because of us. I think that's a girl thing, or maybe it's just a human thing! So bravo! This also shows your confidence level. When are confidence is low, we immediately become critical of what other people think of us.

Gotta go put the kid in bed now... hope doggy feels better! and the big pup. $;\)$

Thank you f21 and ST!!

Pup's still seeming kind of blah today but getting better so that's good. Thank goodness no more vet visits for awhile.

ST - thanks. Yeah it's sure easy to make it "all about us" isn't it??

H was really grouchy again last night and I think I kinda figured it out. I think the closer we get to Thursday the more he's faced with the Happy Hour coming up... it's the first Thursday since my blowing up at him. I know not to try and mind-read, but it's just kinda the impression I get.

Last night he and a (male) friend from work went out and flew their model airplanes together. He had left me a kind of snippy message saying he was going out "with GREG so I will be home late, but I'm out WITH GREG." And then this morning as he was leaving another kind of snotty tone and "Well I guess I will be home early tonight, see you right after work."

So... on the good side he's making the decision I hoped he would make, to respect my boundary and not go out. But I feel kinda bad about not "letting" him go and a bit like I'm being punished for it. I just keep reminding myself it is NOT unreasonable, and that it's probably going to be difficult for him and I need to be understanding about that while still remaining firm on it. Doing pretty well with it so far, I think.

I'm debating between treating tonight just like a normal night vs. maybe planning something fun for us to do together. Any thoughts?

You don't have to fix it for him.

How about being direct: "Gee H, I feel like you are punishing ME because I am not OK with you hanging out with PW. I know you understand that PW is a problem because of YOUR actions, so I'm sure you don't want to punish ME. But, that is how it feels. I am also very frustrated because I don't know how much longer you are going to allow PW to influence OUR M."

Oldtimer

Please take a look at my sitch if you get a chance. OW is gone but now H feels he still doesn't want to come back... $\:\($

Thanks!

Heartbroken,

I don't really have time to follow anyone else's sitch, but I took a quick look. It doesn't sound as though you are Piecing to me. H is clearly not equally committed to building a strong vibrant healthy passionate M as you are.

Your H is depressed because he is unhappy with his life and his M. The A was a symptom of that. Ending the A didn't cure that. So, if either of you thought it would, you were bound to be wrong.

It sounds like you are pursuing, chasing, crowding H, or your sitch is in some way, so that he does not have space to figure out what he wants.

Thanks Oldtimer. I'll see how his attitude is tonight and address it if I need to. I think I can let a couple snippy comments roll off, just not if they keep on happening.

It's kind of a weird balancing act because I don't want to keep throwing the OW/PW thing in his face all the time... but then I guess if I think about it that way, if I'm right that his attitude is because of the happy hour thing, he's kinda throwing her in my face indirectly too.

Hmm. Gotta think on it a bit more. (I know, I know, I think too much...)

Heartbroken - even without knowing your whole sitch from the beginning, I think Oldtimer's pretty right on with that advice.

IMHO, for me, I would try to say, "Hey, I really appreciate it when you tell me that you are going out with Greg. (may add: then I won't be wondering who you are out with)." And "I would love to see you tonite (thur). Would you want me to <rent a movie or whatever?>"
Ignore the tone, just be glad he is doing what you want. He may feel like he needs to show a bit of "attitude" rather than being the obedient husband.

I like ourcrisis's ideas.

Even though I think what happened the other night..the "blowup", I know this is why he is treating you this way. Not saying this is your fault at all though, but I think he is trying to make you feel guilty or something. That, fine, have it your way attitude. This is what I didn't want my H to have. That's why I gave him what my perfect scenerio was, and that in my mind, the A wasn't over as long as they had contact.

Then, I gave him time to stop. I know, with your sitch, it's definitely harder. And if you never said anything, then he could have taken advantage of the sitch because she works with him and is everywhere.

But when it comes to men, THEY want to make their own decision, not have us make it for them. This is something I learned in "For Women Only". Men really ARE like children. $;\)$

But I also see OT's point of view too.

Overall, I think you are handling things very well.

oh, and like ourcrisis said. If and when H does the right things, make him be glad he chose well.

Kudos Nikki...

Good advice here. IMHO, part of what we all have learned thru this process is the importance of communication or our true feelings and disappointments. So I really feel you wouldn't be out of line to follow OT's advice to let your H know how his words make you FEEL. Keep it at a level of feeling and make it be about you. You know what to do, you're doing a great job. Keep it up!!

Nikki,
I think the "blow up" can be a good thing. As far as not "letting" him go out, not the case at all. He made the decision not to go.
You are doing a great job letting things slide off your back and taking issue with the real things. Keep it up.
btw, I am excited to get the new horse camping. I am hoping she is the perfect lady for beginners like I have pegged. She listens to voice commands, so I can give assistance to others who are mounted on her. Wanna ride?:)

Hope the evening went well, Nikki! $\:\)$ Let us know.

Thanks all for your posts!

Ourcrisis
That's a very good point on how I can respond to H's words/actions but ignoring the tone. Thank you!!! I hadn't thought of that and I think that's a great idea. I know I was responding to his tone by kind of "shutting down" a bit and that's a pattern I need to break in myself.

ST
Oh I completely agree that he's likely responding to the way I addressed everything the other night. I do take some of the blame/fault for the way I went over board the other day. Also agree it's kind of tough in my sitch because he CAN'T just cut off all contact period. That would be so much more clear cut.

In hindsight I probably should have had this talk before he even moved home - that way deciding to come home and deciding to cut off contact w/her would have been more on his terms or timeline. I couldn't deal with their Thurday night "dates" (what it feels like to me, I know he defines it very differently). When he wasn't here I was able to just move on with my own life and not care much what he was doing, but when he got home it REALLY bothered me. Ah well... if only we could all rewind our sitches right??

Julie
Thank you very much! Definitely agreed, communication is a key thing for all of us to learn.

Cliffy
True - he did make the decision. I think I forced it way too much, but he DID choose. He could have gone out and knowingly hurt me further and he didn't. That's a pretty big deal.

Have fun camping!!! (and stop tormenting me $;\)$ !) Your new horse sounds wonderful though - hope she turns out to be a good "camper" too!

zuzu
Pretty well, thanks! It wasn't great.. H was kind of moody and weird all night. When he got home I asked if I could take him out to dinner and he said no, he wanted to eat leftovers, so I just kind of gave him more space again. After reading here, next time I think I'll emphasize more thanking him for coming home, giving him the kudos for making the choice (regardless of his mood). I finished up our costumes for the party this weekend while H did stuff out in the garage. We did go for ice cream before bed though, that was kinda fun. Something we used to do quite a bit in the summer.

Had a bunch of yucky nightmares last night, most of them involving me doing very violent things to OW/PW - that was very weird. I really can't figure out why she's popping up in my mind so much lately and I'm finding myself so angry. Playing psychologist for a moment my guess is that I'm "projecting" some anger on to her that belongs elsewhere. Kind of like blaming her for the M issues when it was really just a symptom... but I'm not sure why now, why so intense etc. Will have to do some reading this weekend and see if I find anything in DR or the "Not just friends" book, and some self-reflection after that.

Must say it was very nice to have H here to wake me up when I started to really freak out. It happened a number of times while he was gone and man, some of those nightmares got really awful when they were allowed to "play out" instead of me waking up.

Aside from that, though, looks like it's going to be a beautiful weekend, we have a fun party to go to, have some plans apart from each other on Sunday (remembering to keep on GALing separately too). So I'm looking forward to it. Hope everyone has a good Friday and a fun holiday weekend!!

Any racing this weekend Nikki? Hope your weekend goes well.

-JDK

That sucks that you had the nightmare. At least their fewer and farer between right?

Hey, I think this is totally natural for you to have this anger and hate toward OW. And although I believe we shouldn't have this for anyone, even our enemies, but I totally understand. Now that H is back and saying he is back, it allows us to let our anger out that we had been holding back.

And for what this woman has done? Oh my gosh. She is a M breaker. There's really no reason NOT to be angry at her. Although H did make the choices he did, but I know that she pushed and persuaded her very utmost best, and we KNOW she has no respect for Marriage.

I think the more trust you build with H, the less anger you will feel. It's just going to take some time.

In my O, it may not always be wise to let your anger out to your H, or to tell him how you feel, because some of what you feel is just a symptom and not realy true to you. Does that make sense? I guess what I'm saying, is figure out what is really true to you, and if it does need to be addressed.

Like, before the bomb, I would get irritated by little things my H would do. But that was a symptom due to other things. Now, those same things don't bother me at all.

Not saying you shouldn't be bothered by OW...you DEFINITELY SHOULD!

I think your doing good though. Hope you have a great weekend!

Nikki wrote this on 5/21: "I guess I didn't learn my lesson last time. I thought I was giving myself a mental "break" from the issue by not bringing it up but really, I was letting it build to the point of exploding, which it did last night. Reminder to self: address things when they happen, don't let it fester!!"

... ... ...

P.S. The only things that fester are the hard ones to discuss. The easy ones don't even cause irritation, let alone festering.

JDK, ST, Oldtimer - thanks for posting!!

JDK
Thanks for asking! No racing this weekend. H only races about once a month, and our friend who races almost every Saturday has this week off. Next weekend H races again though, I think (gotta check the calendar).

ST
Yes thankfully they are MUCH fewer and farther between. Actually it's weird, about a month into the separation up until the last week or so the nightmares had pretty much stopped - not sure why they're back now. Maybe timing... I know things started "heating up" with the OW/PW in late May last year. We're starting to come up on a lot of "anniversaries" of painful things and maybe it's bothering me more than I thought it would. Or like you said, maybe now that the worst of the H "crisis" is over, I'm finally letting the anger come through. Dunno. I agree, the more the trust comes back the more the anger will most likely fade.

This really hit home to me:

Quote:

In my O, it may not always be wise to let your anger out to your H, or to tell him how you feel, because some of what you feel is just a symptom and not realy true to you.

Yep makes complete sense, and I struggle with it a lot.

Oldtimer/ST
... and a continuiation of the above.. that's why I hesitated on bringing up the OW/PW thing again. I don't want to keep throwing it in his face all the time. I felt like after my big blow-up, I had said what I needed to say, and it was only fair to give him some time to process and react. I just didn't feel right bringing it up again so soon when he was kind of grumpy those couple of days. Thinking about it from his perspective I felt like it could come off as "Oh great so I do what you want me to do, and now I get bitched at for not doing it the right way.." If it happens again THIS week I will address it, but I felt ok about letting him slide being grumpy a few days (kind of the "he's teething" theory)... does that make sense??

I'll get the balance right one of these days. $\:\)$

--------------------
As for this weekend, just some journaling... has been a good weekend so far.

Friday night was the "Pimp and Ho" party and it was actually pretty fun. Kind of obnoxious theme but what the heck - might's well get into it if you're going to something that outrageous right?? Thursday night I helped H pick out a costume and get it all put together, and I finished mine up too. They turned out pretty good! Both fun costumes. It was pretty funny driving over to the party and watching people very carefully "not" look at us (but keep glancing over out of the corner of their eyes) the whole time, so we had fun with that. Party itself was ok.. I dunno, I really like all these people individually but never have that much fun with them as a group, for some reason. They're all really young and a pretty tight-knit group so I think I just don't really "click" with them that well (H doesn't really seem to either, but he does better just 'hanging out' in that kind of situation than I do). But in good news the OW wasn't there and never even came up, so yay for that!

Saturday I learned how to post a photo album to Myspace so I did that with the party pics - I feel so young and hip now...

. H is all impressed too, "Wow we have a myspace?? All the kids at work have a myspace..." Kind of funny. I've had a page for a long time mostly so I could look up other people, but now I even have stuff on mine. How exciting..hehe. If anyone else is on there too I have a link to it in my profile here now. It's not very extensive but hey, it's something.. $\:\)$ .

H and I also worked on a setup for his racecar so that we can use my digital camera to take movies from the dash (it's more complex than you'd think..). We've always kinda been a good team - he does the mechanical/hands on stuff (i.e. welding the camera mounting plate) and I do the tech/computer stuff (getting the movie to work on the PC) so we had a lot of fun with that.

Today catching up on chores, and I'm going over to BBQ with my dad and sis tonight. My dad's not doing well at all with his sitch so I hope we can have a break from it. He tends to dwell and be really negative so it's gonna take all the PMA I can muster to get him out of that. My poor sis gets bored to death because my dad just wants to sit and mope, so I'm hoping I can get us to do something fun. Dad already shot down a number of ideas so dunno... we'll see.

H went sailing with his dad today and they're spending the night on the boat. I was invited but decided not to go. It kinda seemed like an "obligatory" invite rather than a "really want you to go" invite - I actually asked H directly which it was and he was kinda vague, but I kinda took it to mean he'd rather have some time alone w/his dad. I also noticed he called his dad several times with me in the room to confirm, discuss details, etc. Kind of indirectly reassuring me that he really was going where he said he would, I think. I notice he does this a lot now if he has plans that I'm not going to - he calls to talk about it when I'm in the room (something he never did before).

I told him this morning "I'm getting spoiled having you here, I'll miss sleeping with you tonight!" and he very sweetly said "I know, me too - don't let the dog steal my spot." Thought that was cute.

I need to get back to planning some more GAL stuff I think, way too much free time this weekend, but all in all I'm realy happy with how things are going.

Hope everyone else is having a good holiday weekend!

Hi Nicky

Just dropped by and read this

Quote:

Then she went outside and did the same thing. I commented to H that she was kind of restless, and he said "Not really restless, she doesn't like how she's feeling and she's trying to get away from it. She hasn't figured out yet that it's her, not where she is."

I thought wow! real insightful , I will carry on reading $\:\)$

Oh and I know this is late but you get a standing ovation from me for the blowout thread , that boundary needed to be set or you were not going to progress.

Dave

Thanks Dave!! Yeah my H's comment about the dog was pretty funny but you're right, really insightful! He does that a lot, talks "through" other things. He'll make these profound comments about the strangest things, like commercials or song lyrics or whatever (a new thing, he never used to do this).

I think I overdid the blowout, for sure, but thank you - I DO agree it needed to be said and at least now there's no doubt eh?

A little journaling...

So the rest of today went great!! My H called this afternoon, totally unexpected. He was out sailing with his dad, and his dad decided to take a nap (yes they were docked) so H called me just to say hi. Wow... that was so cool. I know it sounds small but I honestly can't remember the last time he called me just to chit-chat cause he was bored and calling me was the first thing he thought of. He was telling me all about their day and what was going on around him on the island they were docked at. Oh and it was kind of funny - I had gone sailing with them last year (pre-bomb) in the San Francisco bay and was competely terrified. I thought H's dad knew how to sail but he didn't very well, and this is NOT good "practice" water. It became almost a joke because I was so scared. My arms were sore for days from hanging on to the side of the boat so hard and I even started crying at one point (I seriously thought our boat was going to flip and wasn't confident we could get back out before hypothermia set in).

The whole time H kept saying "But this is FUN, it's an ADVENTURE..." At the time I didn't see it but in hindsight he was saying/thinking "she so boring, she won't do anything fun or adventurous, she's too scared of living life..." (there were MANY instances like this, of course all in hindsight). I have gotten a lot more courageous since then, a 180... and it was funny because I told H the other day "Hey at least without 'wimp girl' along you guys can do whatever you want... although I'm not so wimpy anymore." H agreed I'm much braver now, but looked forward to trying new stuff on the boat without worrying about me. When we talked today he was so disappointed "I don't know what happened to my dad, he won't try anything fun, it sucks!" I thought that was pretty funny. I said "Well next time if I go, I'll get you guys to show off your sailing skills to try and impress me and maybe we can do some crazy sailing again."

This afternoon went to my dad's and much to my surprise, he decided to go play mini-golf with me and my sis! I had suggested it earlier in the day but he was coming up with 101 reasons not to go... so I got there and he said we should go, and I was really happy. For those not familiar with my whole sitch... my dad suffers from really severe depression (brain chemistry related, has had an awful time with it all his life). To top it off my stepmom became the WAS in February and my dad has been pretty devestated. From day 1 he's really been a wreck and the DB concepts just aren't sinking in for him, or he refuses to try them.. basically every time I see him I watch him force my stepmom further away, while also wallowing big time.

So, it was really exciting that he wanted to go and even more exciting that he had FUN with it. We all did - and I think my sis appreciated us doing something. Usually it's my dad and I having these really serious talks while she's bored to death (she's 10 and very active so sitting around talking's just NOT her thing). When we got back dad cooked ribs, potatoes, and artichokes for dinner. Last time I was there for dinner he nearly burst into tears because he couldn't figure out how to boil water to make spaghetti noodles, so this was a pretty big accomplishment. He even had me go play w/my sis while he cooked rather than help him, another surprise. There was some awkwardness for sure, especially because my dad just seems to constantly kind of pine for my stepmom (putting my poor sis in a really weird position), but it was a huge improvement from the last few times I've seen/talked to him.

So yay... very excited for a great Sunday! Hope everyone else had a good one, as well.

I know that she wrote that OT. But we also need to know what the underlying problem is. We can have a "cancer" in us, that shows itself in symptoms, but until we eliminate the cancer, we will never be free of the symptoms.

It is also important for us not to jump to conclusions immediately, and not to let out our feelings immediately. We could be totally wrong about something, and when we first discover a problem, or have an initial problem, we are usually very angry or emotional at first. It is best to take time to calm down. Even minutes, or perhaps hours, to refocus and decide why we are really mad, is it worth fighting for, is it important to us to resolve, and then resolve it in a reasonable way. Most of the time, when we do things immediately, we are irrational, so it is best to take a little time to breathe, and reflect.

It is NOT okay to dwell, so a problem should not fester in our minds. There is an area of time that we should know for ourselves when it is best to address an issue. When, I believe, is the most important.

That is wonderful about your Dad Nikki!!!! Did you give him lots of praise!?! I'm sure you did.

Also cool that H called you during the sailing trip. Ya, it shocks me too when h calls out of the blue. Makes you feel like they really want to spend time with you.

I know my H probably thought I was boring too. It's just from us loosing confidence in ourselves. We lose our identity, and we become scared about stuff, insecure and all that. We must NEVER EVER let ourselves become insecure again!!!!

Very, very cool about your H calling, especially just to say "hi" when this was never his style. Just goes to show that he is really thinking about you on his free time and is giving a sincere effort. Do you still keep your distance for the most part and let him initiate contact in and outside the house, or is getting more comfortable and mutual?

Awesome about your dad, too! I'm sorry that he's not doing well with depression, the WAS, and the fact that he's not DBing very well (or trying, perhaps). Actually, the mini-golf and dinner sitch sounded like a little bit of GAL for him to me!

Have a great Memorial Day (hopefully you're not working)!

Nikki,
So glad you had a great weekend! You are an inspiration.
SD

Hey Nikki, glad to hear things are going great, may it continue to do so for a very long time! $\:\)$

-JDK

ST, Nick, SuperDad, JDK - hi!

ST
Agree with both you and Oldtimer on the addressing things.. I'm still learning how to figure out which ones really bother me and which ones kind of do. Hopefully this week will go better - if I get snippy comments from H again this week I'll definitely address it, but I'm kind of glad I let it go last week to give him a little time to deal with the whole issue in his mind. I'm honestly not dwelling on it - only mentioning it here again to respond to your comments on it.

And yes - gave my dad lots of praise!! He seemed really proud. I also sent him an email later complimenting him again on the dinner and on how he seems to be slowing down and enjoying the moment sometimes, he thanked me for noticing that.

Agree on the insecurity! It's weird, I used to be pretty daring and I was slowly getting more and more cautious - some of it in response to breaking my leg, I'm sure, but I was constantly worrying and rarely having fun. Not a good way to be!

Nick
Yeah it was very cool that he called. Hmmm I'd say the contact is more mutual now. Inside the house for sure - outside I leave it to H a bit more, but I'm comfortable calling him or initiating things too.

----------
Some journaling...

Sorry I haven't been on much to check in (either here or on others' threads). I've been thinking about everyone as always and hoping that things are going in a positive direction!

I am doing pretty well. Monday afternoon H and I went to our local county fair. We were attempting to go see his cousin's pig - she raised one for 4H. We thought it was there all weekend but apparently the auction was on Saturday so we missed it (although might be a good thing, I guess his cousin was pretty upset!).

I always like the state fair but it's kind of chaotic, so this county one was pretty neat. Same fairgrounds but it's MUCH smaller - you can talk to the animal owners, artists who have exhibits there, etc. I got to watch part of the horse show and also pet a bunch of the horses so had fun w/that. Also got bit by a calf but it was kind of cute - I was petting it and it apparently got hungry. It was licking me, and I turned my head to look at something and next thing I knew it was trying to use my hand as an udder. Ouch!! It was funny though and didn't hurt TOO bad.

We wandered around, watched a hypnosis show, looked at exhibits, played a few games, had some nice greasy food.. $\:\)$ . Lots of fun.

Oh and it led to some unintentional GALing... on a total whim I played one of those "win a goldfish" games. I ended up winning 3 goldfish and a tiny little fish tank (I shouldn't even call it a tank, it's one of those plastic things they sell for kids to collect bugs in, I think). Hey it seemed like a good idea at the time. When we got home I fed them and put in a little air pump knowing they probably needed more oxygen, but by Tuesday morning the tank was disgusting and the poor fish didn't look too good. I'm such an animal lover, even these little goldfish suffering really bothered me - sooo I read up on what they need, and last night off to the pet store I went. They are now in a nice 10 gallon tank with a filter, light, etc. They are some very happy fishies! Tonight's GALing needs to be listing some stuff on eBay to pay for my OTHER GALing I think!

Anyway I've always wanted an aquarium, so this was kind of a cool excuse to finally do it. I read a lot on how to care for them - I had no idea, apparently these things can get to be a foot long and it's common for them to live 15-20 years!! Goldfish?? Who knew! Apparently they also need a LOT more room as they grow (more like 10 gallons minimum per fish), so this will only be a temporary home. If they survive, I plan to make them an outdoor pond in a whiskey barrel when they outgrow the fish tank (another thing I've wanted to do but keep putting off), then get some other smaller fish for the aquarium. I guess there aren't many fish you can put in with the goldfish - the goldfish need too much room and they're also too aggressive, so they kinda need their own tank. I was very proud of myself for getting it all set up on my own. H came home and was pretty shocked I think. He knew I was getting them a tank but he was surprised how big it is and how I got it all set up myself, so that was a cool bonus. Hopefully they make it.. you're supposed to let the tank run fish-less for a few days to get the water balance right and stuff, but I didn't think they'd survive the little tank for that long, so I did the best I could getting the water right and went for it. They look much better today so fingers are crossed!

Great GALin' with the fish and the fair Nikki! You sound great.

-JDK

Nikki,

I LOVE your goldfish story :-D !!!

"I'm still learning how to figure out which ones really bother me and which ones kind of do. Hopefully this week will go better - if I get snippy comments from H again this week I'll definitely address it, but I'm kind of glad I let it go last week to give him a little time to deal with the whole issue in his mind."

This is so great. You are owning your stuff so well, your choices, their consequences. No victim-speak to see there!!!

:-D

Your calf trying to nurse story made me miss my baby, who is at the babysitter so I can work, so gotta go.

Hi JDK and Oldtimer, thanks for checking in!

Still the proud owner of 3 goldfish - yay! They look really happy and healthy so far. H commented last night that he can't believe how playful they are - I agree, they are a lot of fun to watch. I sure hope they make it, I'm starting to get to "know" them (they actually have different "personalities" - it surprised me!).

Awww oldtimer that's sweet about your baby, hope you got back to him/her soon!!

Things are moving along well M wise. It's Thursday and no snarky comments from H, so that's good. Of course now I am paranoid that he's going to go to happy hour tonight... bleh.. but we'll see what happens.

I'm sure this is normal but the more relaxed/comfortable we get the more my anxiety increases - fear of another bomb, H seems happy but is he really, etc. He's only been home what, under 2 months, though?? So I'm sure this will fade over time.

That's cool about your new fish tank. We got one a little over a year ago but it's 46Gal. Looks like you did some research, so that is good. I hate when fish stores don't tell knew owners what to do. AND the fact that they will sell fish together that really shouldn't go together and in a tank that is way too small. The thing with having a smaller tank for a fish that grows too big, is that at some point it will stunt their growth. But that is a great idea about the barrel thing, since your in an area where the climate doesn't change drastically like here in OK.

I know what you mean about being nervous if you'll have another bomb thrown at you, etc. yes it will go away in time. I never think about it now. The longer he is with you, the more time he is showing you by his actions that he will stay. If it really starts to bother you, you may think about talking with him and just sharing him your concerns, that you know he's doing everything to assure you that there won't be another bomb, but your still scared sometimes and it might reflect on your actions towards him and you appologize for that. Maybe think about what he could be doing to make you feel more secure? Would attending some kind of marriage session help? although most guys I think wouldn't go for it, well my H anyways. Or maybe in a month you won't even have these feelings.

You just don't want to start "acting" insecure with your H, thus my comment about mentioning the problem to H if it gets bad.

glad to hear from you, Hope you had a wonderful Thursday!

Hey Nikki,

I think S.T. makes a great point here so I'll just second that motion! Even if you're feeling a little worried, insecure, etc., that things might go south and that same old stuff will rear its ugly head, don't let it be reflected in your actions with him. I think the advice on how to approach him with this concern that S.T. gave you is great -- I would follow that recipe myself if I was in your shoes and my worry was beginning to get the best of me.

It sounds like things are going pretty well for you, though -- keep doing for you as well as for your H & M -- keep us posted on the things and for insight and opinions if/when needed!

Nick

Thanks ST and Nick!

ST
I'll go ahead and reply over here about the fish tank since you mentioned it in your thread. Thanks for the help offer!! As you saw I kinda did things in the wrong order in terms of getting the fish before I had a good "home" for them (bad enough when fish stores do it, but you get even fewer care instructions at the fair. I'm surprised they still give out fish actually.. but that's a whole other topic). I know it's really risky having them in there before properly cycling the tank, but I'm fairly sure they'd have died by now in their original "tank." They still look great, really healthy. In fact one of them had what looked like a bite from another fish on its side, and it's even healing! I got them an air pump and "wand" yesterday to help with the oxygen levels - they seem to love it! Yeah I had read that about stunting their growth, too. I figure if they get to a point where they aren't growing or look like they're struggling it'll be time to set them up with a pond. It does get pretty hot here in summer though, I'll have to see if they're OK outside with the heat.

I was thinking about getting a couple of ghost shrimp in a few weeks if the goldfish are still doing ok. It seems to be the only non-goldfish "companion" you can put in with them. Any thoughts on those?? Or am I nuts trying to put more critters in a 10 gallon tank?

ST and Nick
Thanks for your points about addressing this with H. I agree, I need to do that. I want to make sure we're both being more open and honest with our feelings, so I think talking about this would be good. I don't even need a lot to reassure me, just some type of commitment that we'll talk about stuff BEFORE it gets to that point. I do think he would go back to MC if I asked. I had kind of hoped he would bring it up and was giving it time (trying not to "rush" him), but he really liked her. Our last session was to discuss separation details and we left it that we'd come back either at 6 months to "re-evaluate" where we were, or sooner if H decided he wanted to work on our M. So asking him to go wouldn't be totally out of the blue, at least.

EXCELLENT point about starting to act insecure, and know what? Now that you say that, I have been doing that a bit. I've been more tempted to snoop, more of a pest about where he's been, who with, what he did... I need to cut that out.

H has another race tomorrow and get to try out our in-car video set up for the first time. Should be a lot of fun!! If I can figure out how maybe I'll even post the video on Myspace (talk about high tech huh??).

Hope everyone's having a good Friday and a great weekend ahead!!

ooh, that would be really cool (the racing video) definitely do that! What does he race anyways? it's probably not drag racing though right? I have a neighbor who has a hundred trophies in his garage from when he used to race. He's got a 6 car garage now that he works on peoples cars in. It's great having a neighbor that can work on your car! And sometimes he just charges us a case of beer!

That's good that you are seeing the snooping, questioning stuff. That's a pretty good sign that we are insecure! $;\)$

on the fish, you have 3 goldfish? a general rule of thumb, more for starters is 1 inch of fish per gallon. And that means the max size of the fish. But since your planning on transfering them when they start getting too big, it should be okay. How big are they now? Adding the ghost shrimp should be okay, they mostly crawl around on the bottom or sides or hide.
I really don't know anything about goldfish, except they are dirty, so you'll probably need to change the water more frequently, especially since there isn't a filter.

thank you Nick

S.T.

Absolutely -- your point seemed to make a lot of sense to me.

Nick

Hi all - ST and Nick, thanks for checking in!

Will reply to you two first.

ST - oh my gosh, your neighbor has H's dream garage. He wants to buy the property behind us, tear down the house, and put in a 6-car garage. And sometimes he only charges people a case of beer. $;\)$ Funny. He has done all kinds of racing and currently owns both a drag-race and a road-race car. The racing tomorrow is road race - much more exciting video than drag racing, for sure. It's at a track that's off in some hilly farmland. Last time I went with him we came up over one hill and saw a bunch of cows eating in a field! Cracked me up (in between gasping for breath from the speed!).

Yep, I have 3 goldfish. They're currently about 2" apiece so that's what, roughly 6 gallons of tank? So I'm hoping they're ok in 10 gallons for awhile. I got a really good filter (BioWheel - at least, seems good from what I've read) and plan to change 20% of the water weekly until they get settled. Does that sound like I'm on the right track?? Good to know about the ghost shrimp, thanks! I heard they help keep the gravel clean so that's why I liked the idea.

I noticed tonight that one of them has fin rot so was a little bummed about that - it's VERY mild, just gotta figure out how to help him/her out before it gets worse. I put in some "Quick Cure" tonight, but any other suggestions? I got mixed advice online about isolating that fish vs. not... most seemed to say the stress from another move would kill it and I could probably cure it without the other fish getting sick, so I left it in the tank for now. It looks happy enough but there's some damage to its tail.

So some journaling... weird night...

I caved on the snooping this afternoon and found out that H has been calling OW again - usually 1 call just about after lunch time and one right after work. They are all short calls, but something about the pattern, I can't help wondering what they're about. What's the point? I mean they work right next to each other... is it "bye" from work? Is it "meet you at XYZ"??? I dunno. Oh and he's deleting it off his phone. I can see it online but not on the phone's call log. Bleh. When I was detaching and in LRT it was easier - just ignore it right? But now, I'm kind of lost. He's not only doing it, he's hiding it. It's so weird because I do feel he's pretty commited to being here but what the heck?? I am just confused.

He came home tonight and was SO excited about racing, practically bouncing off the walls.. sooo I should have said something but all of a sudden I just didn't feel OK about going "Oh BTW I snooped and know you're still contacting OW." I know I was grouchy and distant and I know that's why though. I did my own thing for awhile and then he wanted to go shopping together for "racing snacks" (intead of the $4 apiece waters at the track!) - so we did that and also went out to grab dinner. H mentioned that his sister had called and plans to drop the bomb on her H this Sunday. He told me "It's pretty bad, she said she wouldn't even hang out with him as a friend at this point, but she's upset because she ends up feeling like the bad guy." I did a LOT of listening and validating.

Later in the convo H said "I should have talked her out of it before she even married him" and "Heck I waited until my 30s to get married and..." and just trailed off. Yuck... does he mean "and now look, I'm trapped with you." (I know, I know, I'm projecting...). During this I asked once "Does he even know she's unhappy?" and H said "How could he NOT?" - thought that was interesting. I said quietly "Well, it's possible he doesn't.. hope that she can find what she needs to be happy though." He also commented that she's only 25 and a "pup" and that she has a chance (again, my projecting, I was thinking "oh but you don't..."). He also said during the convo "Life's tough, that's for sure." I asked him what he meant and he said "Well isn't it?"

On the positive side, he gave me a really funny grin one time and I asked "What're you thinking? What was that for?" (kidding tone) and he said "Well you, of course. I looked at you and smiled."

This piecing stuff is confusing!!

I have decided to focus more on GALing again and less on scheduling with/around H.. not sure what more I need to do, though. Thoughts are welcome as always!

Nikki,

H is contacting PW and lying to you about it. What part of that is OK? You set the boundaries of how you will be treated in your M.

"I have decided to focus more on GALing again and less on scheduling with/around H.. not sure what more I need to do, though. Thoughts are welcome as always!"

This seems like a good idea. Perhaps you can go out with your singles group again. I'm not sure why you should be more into the R than H is at this point, it isn't particularly good for you or the M.

Oldtimer... I know, I'm just so confused. Because 99.9% of the time things are SO good. It's like he's REALLY in the R MOST of the time, but that tiny bit where he isn't is just SO wrong. There's nothing OK about contacting PW (and especially lying about it), but it's 2 minutes out of every 24 hours. The rest of the time, he's being very loving, caring, devoted to "us" and I even see him actively fixing things that he needed to. Ugh. THAT is what has me confused.

All day today it was about thanks for coming with me, thanks for being here, excited that I came along racing. Side note... due to various issues we only managed to tape 1 of 4 races, but it turned out quite cool!! I need to figure out how to post it... the file's nearly 1 GB.

So anyway, my question becomes... how far do I go? I have mentally wavered between "just drop it and give him time" to "move 3 states away and start over." It's been THAT dramatic in my head. And of course at this point H has no idea I've seen evidence of all the PW contact. Do I leave a note and the phone bill on the counter? I just don't know.

Think tomorrow I will focus on fixing up my fishie (hope I can cure this fin rot, it's gotten worse today). And spend some time in the afternoon figuring out what I want to do next. I'm out of town for work Mon-Weds - kinda glad for the forced time to think.

Nikki,
I have a similar issue here. H is home and being VERY NICE to me and really trying to change. But there is still that CONTACT with OW (mine is phone/online now which he claims will end soon). Actually my biggest complain is him keeping it secret. I know he is contacting her but I already told him I would rather him let me know and show me his progress towards lessening the contact, than hiding it from me. But he won't be open about it. I have the same mental wavering as you. For now, I am giving him time, except for my occasional explosion in front of him (which is definitely BAD) In order to change that, I am trying to go out more by myself now to see friends.
sorry no advice here just to empathesize. Take care. Hope you can decide or "decide not to decide for now".

Nikki -
My first instinct is to just say wait a little more (BUT be sure you''re using effective contraception in the meantime!!!). It's not uncommon for a returned spouse to still have a little sputtering contact with the OP for a while - whether they're hedging their bets, or just trying to "let them down easy", or whatever. For some it's like kicking a drug habit.

I'd give it another month - see what happens then. I wouldn't say anything to him about it now, only because you still want to know if it's happening, and if you tip him off, he might just hide it better. Over the next month the calls should start to dwindle down.

Everything else in your sitch sounds so good, I doubt this is anything more. You definitely should be setting the boundary of no contact, and it is a little worrisome that your H doesn't get that, but it's a little early to tell if he's just a sneak or if he's just doing that fairly typical "long goodbye".

My H had a couple of phone contacts with the OW after we reconciled, took him 2 months before he finally had a definitive "do not call me" talk with her. It was easier in my case because she was out of town. Must be harder with them working together.

Ellie

So, you are saying that right now you are accepting H's contact with PW and his lying about it for your own reasons. That is fine. Ellie's suggestion of putting a time limit on that is a great one, you can reassess in a month. In the meantime, quit obsessing about it and feeling like a victim. You have CHOSEN to accept that behavior in H for your own reasons, so you also need to accept the consequences of that right now.

(((Nikki)))

Nikki,
I know that it is a bit different when you get to piecing, but snooping can't ever be good. Will confronting H with this information bring you closer to your goals? I think probably not. Maybe rather use this opportunity to "take the pulse" of the R and reiterate your feelings and needs? Just an idea, reread the sections of DR (or maybe talk to a coach?) for other ones and discuss them here!

I know what you mean about LRT being easier than piecing. At least I know in my sitch that pushing W concerning whatever type of EA she is having will bring nothing to our R. I just have to accept that she is going through a MLC and that it will be a tough period for a while. Nevertheless, I would give anything to be where you are.

SD

well, looks like you've gotten some good advice.

You know I've already been in your shoes. I know what you are feeling though. When people say what good is snooping, well, your thinking, if 99% of the time he's acting the "right" way, and we never knew about the 1% he's still contact the OW, then how do we ever really know? How do we know it ever really ends? They say, you will know by their actions, not by their words, but your H IS acting as an H now.

I know it really sucks that he's hiding this now. I know that's what my H did. Once in a great great while I wonder if my H still is, but that's hardly ever. And like someone said, you don't want him to keep getting "caught" because he will just get better at hiding it.

I remember reading something about a parent finding out their kid was doing drugs, then the kid was hiding it, then the parents snooping and confronting, then the kid being even more sneaky. so basically the kid was learning how to be clever because the parents were snooping. So, I'm not really sure what should be done instead. maybe just focusing on the positive with them and giving a decided time to reevaluate and discuss if needed.

I think giving it a month is a good idea, and take what OT said too about taking the consequences with it. I think GALing is a very appropriate decision.

The only thing we have to be cautious of is not jumping to conclusions. He definitely shouldn't be contacting her, but we really don't know why. hey, and you got this far, you can definitely go a month!

about the fish..I'm not sure how fast goldfish grow, so your okay for a little bit. On the fin rot, one of mine had that too, but I never used chemicals. I try to avoid it if I can, and I haven't used any yet. Having the biowheel is a good filter, it actually helps the tank cycle faster. Have you gotten a test kit? it can be helpful. Then you don't have to take your water to the store to have them check it. The strip tests are ok but they are not as accurate as the test tubes. The most important is the Ammonia,Nitrites, Nitrates. The first two should read zero, and the last never over 40. Ph test is also good to have. Depending on your water, whether it is hard or soft can change the Ph. Don't get too attached to the fish though. They don't live quite as long/well as dogs/cats. So many things can happen in a tank that can cause them to die. Stress, disease, agression from other fish, tank water..etc. Sounds like your doing a good job though.

Nikki,

Since I have no personal experience on this one, I'll just keep my mouth shut (I also just received D.R., and am going to begin reading it tonight, so maybe I'll have more professional knowledge bestowed upon me later). However, I agree with the wait a month and reassess tactic and GALing in the meantime -- the reasoning for this sounds sound.

Hope everything goes as well as possible for you -- it does sound like all else is very positive!

And, for the record -- I don't know diddly about fish!

Nick

Hi all - thank you for the support!

I am guessing this will lock soon, so here's a link to my
new thread (#16).

I'll reply to everyone over there.