OK, am starting a new thread, just for my records really, feel free to comment but it's not expected.
Synopsis and links:
1st bomb - Sept 2005 - ILYBINILWY, 2 month separation
2nd bomb - March 2006 - ILYBINILWY, can't stay married to you, my feelings have gone. Stayed in the house, sep bedrooms for about 3 months, no cuddles for a further 3 months.
Thread One Thread Two H finally recomitted in Oct/Nov 2006, but by Spet I was sinking into depression. Had C sessions to get through my low self esteem. All OK by Xmas.
The first few months of this year have been a continued upswing. I have made a few mistakes but I know how to put these right. My H and I now have the kind of R where we both realise that if something is wrong/not OK then we can work TOGETHER to find a solution we BOTH like. As H said the other night, "there usually is an answer, it's just a matter of finding it". Music to my ears.
What got me here? Patience, a commitment to stick with it even when times were tough, realising that it's not all about me, that there were many things H was going through (now pretty sure it was a mini MLC) that I really had no control over.
I've learned to depend on myself for my happiness, that I can't fix everything, and that it's very important to keep assuring H that if I'm in a mood it's not because of him, and if it is I will tell him. Clear communication wins for me.
I've learned that my way isnt' always the right way. That I should consider others, they might not always agree with me and if they don't it's not a personal insult.
I've learned that giving is important, and that what you give out will come back to you. So I try to always give out good things
Finally, my H is now a want in my life. I don't need him. I won't crumble without him. I want him in my life and this is more flattering for him than me needing him!!
So - just wanted to keep posting, I've had my fair few wobbly days and I still want the security blanket fo this site. I know my M is strong but the bomb hit me by surprise - I never want to be caught napping like that again!!!
Hope all are well and remember that by coming here you are making a stand that many, many others don't.
I've learned that giving is important, and that what you give out will come back to you. So I try to always give out good things
I've seen so many people say this lately. I sure hope it is true. Sometimes I feel I give and give and get kicked in the but anywas.
You are very honest in your post. Some of what you said really hit home for me. I have not read all your posts yet, but will. It sounds like you are in a good place in your R.
cissy
You sound wonderful jenny. You are a success and I am so happy for you. Keep going.
all right! I'm glad you are here :), you are starting w/the right foot, give specially when there are bumps, (there will be many!) congrats
Just watched the Empre Strikes Back (for the umpteenth time, I'm a huge Star Wars fan)
One line struck out at me (said by Yoda about Luke Skywalker):
"All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was."
Made me think of baby steps, of small goals. For me, keeping my mind on the present and not on the future helped.
You're my hero, Jen. Really. We have to meet someday!
SD
Hey SD - you're mine too!!!!
I would love to meet up, short of cash right now but planning a US trip next year. In the meantime, you can get me on jenjamhelp@yahoo.co.uk if you fancy a few emails
You're my hero, Jen. Really. We have to meet someday!
Just want to record this for me ...ala good though
I managed to get myself really fat a few years ago, I went to a slimming class and managed to lose 4 stone. BUT I did regiment my life a lot, refused invites out in case they impacted on my diet etc etc. H saw a woman very unhappy with herself that he could not fix. It helped contribute to our problems.
So - now I am getting fat again. I have issues with food in that I use it to destress/relax myself and I want to resolve that. I'm not sure how but I will. I've been afraid to diet again because of the above, last night I told this to H.
H listened!!!
When I said I was afraid to diet in case it made our lives regimented again and brought the problems back he stated VERY clearly that the feelings of being "regimented" he had didn't all come from me, some were from him (showing me it wasn't all me who caused our problems). He asked as well if I could accept that the feelings he had of being too regimented are now gone. I said I would (and now I have to rmember that, practise a bit of thought stopping).
The upshot (and here comes the REALLY good part) is that he stated how he likes his life to be in terms diet and exercise, and I stated mine. TOGETHER we came up with a workable diet plan which includes takeaways/high fat meals like macaroni cheese but we only have these once a fortnight. We limit as well our alcohol and chocolates. But it's something we deided together and i am so happy, and I made sure I did plenty of cheerleading to H and thanked him for coming up with this.
I'm really pleased cos I was getting worried (silly really) that I couldn't lose weight and stay married.
That's all I wanted to say - no great rellevations here, but thanks for reading.
That great! You were able to communicate and resolve as a couple, and thats huge!
Good lines of communication is what we all need!
"All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was."
This describes my H (who is way way deep in MLC) to a tee!
Another thing - I don't often post song lyrics but I LOVE these!!! OK, the song is about Bush's refusal to sanction gay marriage, BUT it was also written to encourge people to not give in - I love it!
Your back's against the wall,
There's no-one home to call,
You're forgetting who you are,
You can't stop crying.
It's part not giving in,
And part trusting your friends,
You'd do it all again and I'm not lying.
Oh-whoa-oh, oh-ooh,
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa-ooh.
Standing in the way of control,
You live your life,
Survive the only way that you know.
I'm doing this for you,
Because it's easier to lose,
And it's hard to face the truth,
When you think you're dying.
It's part not giving in,
And part trusting your friends,
You'd do it all again but you don't stop trying.
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa,
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa.
Standing in the way of control,
You live your life,
Survive the only way that you know, know.
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa,
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa.
Standing in the way of control,
We'll live our lives.
Because we're standing in the way of control,
We will live our lives.
Because we're standing in the way of control,
We'll live our lives.
Because we're standing in the way of control,
We will live our lives, lives, lives.
Ooh-ooh-ooh-oh,
Hey, yay, hey, hey.
Your back's against the wall,
There's no-one home to call,
You're forgetting who you are,
You can't stop crying.
It's part not giving in,
And part trusting your friends,
You'd do it all again but you don't stop trying.
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa,
Oh-whoa, oh-oh-whoa.
Standing in the way of control,
You live your life,
Survive the only way that you know, know.
Hey BND, long time ... been seeing you about though!!
And a very Happy Easter to you too ... a time of new beginnings, of hope for the future (and chocolate eggs yum yum!!! )
What an inspirational thread! It gives me hope! Happy Easter!
Matilda
and chocolate eggs yum yum!!!
Ok, I've got my eye on ya now!!
I wanted to share this song with YOU as you've REALLY been an inspiration to ME and many otheres here & here's praying we can ALL sing this too one day:
You're Still The One = Looks like YOU made it JJ
Woo HOO!!! H and I booked our summer hols (well, in September)
we're off to a music festival - have a look
http://www.bestival.net/I went there in 2005, the weekend after H moved out, my friends took me to try and cheer me up. Then H and I went last year but it was the start of my own depression. This time I'm hoping it's 3rd time lucky!!!
But it's just SO NICE to be able to make plans for 6 months in the future knowing H will be her with me :). it's been a long slog, at times a horrific rollercoaster but well worth it.
But it's just SO NICE to be able to make plans for 6 months in the future knowing H will be her with me :). it's been a long slog, at times a horrific rollercoaster but well worth it.
You lucky lady!
One weird thing - I've been having nightmares about Bestival (where we are going in Sept, see previous post).
I wored it out that so far I have been there twice, once 2 days after H walked out and the second time when he had only just recomitted. In these nightmares I feel lost and alone in a big crowd of people, and that's exactly how I felt both times at Bestival.
I was worried for a bit, then realised it's because it's only been a couple of weeks since I've felt truly "there" in my M. I've only just started to feel that we have the ingrdients for a happy M. I am still a little fearful that another bomb could come from nowhere, but that fear is getting less and less.
In recent weeks I've been introduing back some "old me" things, like budgeting and healthy eating. Of course I am scared that these could cause problems. But the way I am going about these things now is not the old way, it's more flexible and less staunch. H is agreeing with me on them so far, I have said if he doesn't like something he has to say, and I make sure I check things with him now rather than bulldozering him and telling him that's the way things are and he has to like it. I am putting over to him that I have ideas but I am more than happy to negotiate if there are things he's not so keen on. So far so good, wait and watch.
So I suppose I'm just taking the first steps into that happy future, I know I have it now, my worry is maintaining it. I'm not sure I'll ever get to a point I can fully sit back and relax, but I'd love to get to a point where I only have to worry about my M say once a month, rather than every day. I don't mean not be considerate etc, I mean I'd like the DB'ing to be more automatic for me, then say do a monthly review with myself and ask myself if there was anything I'd done/said over the past month which could have come over as bad, ask myself if H had done more compromising than me, just a health check really. I don't intend to sit down with H and have regular, scheduled R talks, I'd like these to be more spontaneous (H prefers that too).
Just journalling really, it's funny to feel "normal" after 18 months of watching what I say and do. Got to be patient and get used to normal and accept that I've changed and so has H. (yes it's my old fave, the P word!!!)
Hope all well and remember the way of the DB'er is long and hard, many don't do it at all. everyone here is to be congratulated for being willing to put the time and effort into saving their M.
Jen,
It's great to see you back on the boards more regularly. We missed you!
Keep up the fantastic work - you and SD are
both my heroes!
Rob
You sound wonderful Jenny. Just catching up. Take care.
It looks like you've done a great job, congrads on being able to make plans with your H that are 6 months away! Whoo Hoo!
Just wondering Jen...are you happy? How do you "feel" about your H? Only asking because my feelings are absent...not really feeling much about H one way or the other. Normal?
SD
Haven't posted for a bit, but I thought recently it might be time to broach with H the subject of intimacy. He's quite LD which I'm fine with but I like the hand holds, the compliments, the kisses (smackers rather than dry pecks).
He always said if I had a problem just tell it to him straight - so I did. I wasn't critical, I said I understood it would take time and that a solution would be out there somewhere, it may just take it a while to find.
Then on Sunday we got slightly drunk and had a silly row - bad things were said on both sides. We talked the next day and I asked if we could forget it, H agreed.
But I don't think he has
I am worried I'll put him right back to his ILYBINILWY and so for now I'm backing off all R talks, making sure I cheerlead him when he does something well, making sure too that when I'm around him I appear relaxed and happy. It seems to be going OK, I'm hoping he's just in his "cave" and he'll come out in a few days.
I suppose I'm posting cos I STILL need you guys!!!
Why do I manage to royally mess things up? I always seem to be getting it wrong. Life was SO HAPPY then I try to improve our R and H feels got at (despite me telling him that everything else in our life together is great and that he DOES make me happy). I feel like I can't win here, that to stay married I have to pretend everything is fine all the time and have no complaints and make no attempt to improve things.
Sorry - getting a bit dramatic here
I'll be OK - and I'm looking forward to the phone call to Memphis and also CM - I'll be back on the phone to you too, been hiding out a bit over this issue.
Take care all
I felt that way too. I didn't feel like I could actually have any sort of R talk! Unfortunately, my H was leaving for a year deployment and I finally had to get up the nerve to talk to him and I did and it was ok. He's gone now and I'm sure glad I actually talked to him. I think there are 2 things: (1) you can either keep this up for awhile longer until you feel like things are truly going to be ok and then talk to him or (2) decide that you need to just get it out -- either we're going to be ok or not and I'm not going to walk on eggshells anymore & this is how it is, but in a nice & gentle way, you know? I kept putting it off -- I was scared that it would send things right back to the D bomb stage, but like I said, it may have to be like this for awhile, but sooner or later, you may have to finally just air everything out and it's going to go one way or the other.
Jen, you're falling into a trap that's really easy to do - believing that the fate of your R hangs in the balance, hinging on the impact of a single action (particularly a backslide). But backslides ALWAYS happen - even in the best Rs, there are mistakes from time to time. When they occur, it's not important that you and H can
forget - it's important that you both can
forgive.
I suspect you are right and H is in his "cave". My suggestion: Act As If all is forgiven on both sides and be your normal wonderful self around him. I bet he'll let it slide if you do.
Looking forward to talking to you this weekend!
Thank you both SO much!!!
Cadesmom - you are absolutely right and it's a decision I've come to. What works for us is me leaving things for a while. I know the times H is receptive to talks and it's when he's relaxed, we've talked of "safe" things and he's laughing and in a good mood. Then I approach him with a kind of "there is no way I want to hurt you and I really regret our argument" and he's usually open then.
Rob - i hadn't thought of it as a trap, but now you've said it YES I do see it like that. I realised I was keeping my focus on the negative, I said in my previous post I was getting a bit drmamtic and you know what? I had gone right into PANIC!!!! mode, and that never gets anyone anywhere.
There are planty of positives, but I was overlooking them. H HAS been holding my hand, he HAS been giving me a few more hugs. It's not much, and it's not all I want, but I will accept it's a small step towards a larger goal.
One of my H's biggest "things" (for want of better word) is to feel that he makes me happy. He has said many times he likes it when I am happy. It's very touching. SO - when I've caught him in the act of taking one of these baby steps toward more intimacy I've shown my appreciation - not too over the top, that would look false, but a simple smile works wonders for him.
I've realised as well I need my old friend patience. I have very little and like things to be resolved quickly, and am happy to take charge of something when I feel it's not moving along. Now, at work this is a GREAT trait for me to have but it's the complete opposite for my M. So I have been "acting as if" and cheeleading H. Tonight we are both staying out with friends (different friends) so I'll see him tomorrow, and although my heart feels it would be nice to be together my head tells me "don't be silly! it's ONE night, you'll both have a great time and come back to each other refreshed". H and I do need the odd times apart (nights/days out I mean) because it IS good for us.
OK - I'm back on track. My diary helps A LOT!!! I filled in 4 sides of A4 yesterday, but better to sort my thoughts out on paper than try to explain them to H when they are really muddled. Which leads me to the last point, I didn't feel I expressed my "I would like more intimacy" very well. I wasn't goal orientated enough. I will sort that out when H is open to talking and tell him some of the things I like - for example, when he scrubs my back in the bath, or when he tells me I look lovely. Concrete things he can achieve - at the moment I feel he is trying to work out what I want and fretting that he's going to get it wrong. The time to talk will come, but I will wait until he's rceptive.
OK - gotta go, Friday night awaits
Take care all - the way of the DB'er is not an easy one but it IS a noble one.
Well.....life was great again then I got another curveball ... don't think it's a biggie but I need my DB head on.
H wants to give up smoking, in fact he's adamant about it. So far, so good. he says he feels unhealthy and has problems breathing. he says he feels bad. He has his constipated face back on. He then thinks "all the other things" will fall into place - by this I am assuming he means the fact he wants to ML only once in a blue moon and then if I'm lucky.
Oh ... I'm getting this so wrong. I begged and cried and asked him not to leave - he says he isnt' leaving but the ILY's are not really forthcoming. I'm starting to wonder if it's all just too much for him and he's too weak to be married. If there is a problem he seems to want to put his head in the sand and hope that it will go away. I'm staring to wonder if I wouldn't be better off leaving.
I dunno, I'm confused so no action right now - just back to focus on me, I know for the next few days H will be going through nicotine withdrawal, I will be joining him on Saturday, so I know giving him some space would be good. I just don't know what to do after that. maybe my old friend Patience will turn up to keep me company - god knows I need her now!!!
just a bummer that I thought we were doing so well and now H is "unhappy" again - seems I can't do anything right for him
I know it won't be the end of me - but I do feel if he could just see things my way then all the problems would go away - and he probably feels exactly the same, so I know forcing my view on him is worthless. I dunno ... confused, a little left out, bewildered, all I wanted was some more physical affection and now he's withdrawn again ... I just hope giving up smoking will help it all fall into place .. maybe if he has more energy and feels better about himself... it just annoys me to see his miserable face moping about when I KNOW the key to happiness lies within oneself and to get happy you GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO SOMETHING!!!
OK, I'm ranting - he IS doing something. Ah well - put up and shut up time for me.
Jen, I've sensed something was up at your end of the world * I'm REALLY sorry to hear this news
Coming from a real "doofus" (according to Amy
) what immediately came to mind is
THIS so I'm not sure if you have it already or know about it?
Stay strong Jen, [you've come too far to turn around now anyway]
(((((JEN)))))
Thanks CM - I think I may well be taking an online trip to Amazon soon (book website)
And ... now the good news... he comes home and it's a complete 180!!!! He's smiling, handing out hugs and complimenting me on my cooking .... THUD..just fell over...er....180's are amazingly powerful.
If this is the effect one day of not smoking has on him then bring it on!! But we'll see... changes may not last
Thanks CM - I think I may well be taking an online trip to Amazon soon (book website)
Kewl, I recommended this one to Faerie Mist & last time I spoke with her she was getting some useful stuff from it
And ... now the good news... he comes home and it's a complete 180!!!! He's smiling, handing out hugs and complimenting me on my cooking .... THUD..just fell over...er....180's are amazingly powerful.
Yes, and therefore I look forward to implementing your 180 for me (tomorrow)
But we'll see... changes may not last
Hey
that's speculation and being negative
Stop hanging around me so much
Seriously though, just keep working on you and maintain your newfound confidence AND esteem
((((Jen))))
Oh girl, do I know how you feel. Sometimes I think this is harder because our hubbies didn't have to DB like we did. It makes you stronger and teaches you how to think. I think sometimes they don't get how much easier it would have been to just tell them to p!ss off instead of standing for our M.
The thing is, all things in life seek balance. The strengths we gained have a corresponding weak side. We over-analyze. Over think. Over.
And, to be honest, I think some of it is a lot like PSD. We're still hearing gunshots long after they've ceased firing.
48-hour rule. Journaling. GAL/PMA. These things are pretty much the staple of my existence...and well, I'm seeing they'll have to be for the rest of my life.
ALSO: YOU are not responsible for H's happiness. I know you know that, but given one of your comments, I felt it bore repeating. :-)
SD
You sound good Jenny. Any R has its ups and downs. SD says some good things. DB has many good tools but the trap is we over focus on the M. We walk on eggshells too much and look for "results".
Someday, we will "just be". To be ourselves. To be in a R and give in that R and expect nothing in return. To allow our partners to be who they are. That is far easier said than done.
But you are on your way to that goal.
I hear you all ... still in my cave about this a bit. But I can't live my life waiting for the next bomb... it will drive me crazy. I DO NOT want a R where I constantly have to watch what I say and do for fear of making him walk off. I cannot have a R filled with fear.
This is one thing I will have to work on for myself .. SD I really identify with the PSD - it IS like waiting for the next gunshot. I cannot live like that. I choose to live my life differently. I hope H will be with me.
Someday, we will "just be". To be ourselves. To be in a R and give in that R and expect nothing in return. To allow our partners to be who they are. That is far easier said than done.
This is my ultimate goal. Right now I have to break that down into baby steps.
H is being really nice to me again tonight ... not all I want but he's trying, he's heard me and that's really important. I would do well to focus on the positives. I'm trying not to become a WAW because I could not put my hand on my heart and say a D would make me happy, Sure, it would be the easier option but if I did it I know I would, in years to come, think "what if?".
Jenny, darling, I'm sorry to hear you feeling so down. However, I think this is more about your reaction (what YOU can control, right?) than about his action (what you CAN'T control, right?)
Let's go back to the beginning here. You said,
H wants to give up smoking, in fact he's adamant about it. So far, so good. he says he feels unhealthy and has problems breathing. he says he feels bad. He has his constipated face back on. He then thinks "all the other things" will fall into place - by this I am assuming he means the fact he wants to ML only once in a blue moon and then if I'm lucky.
First of all, it seems like you both agree that H's smoking is impacting his health and is making him feel physically bad much of the time. You agree that him stopping is a good idea, and you understand that stopping is difficult, and will make him irritable.
OK, so here's what I want you to do. Even though H has kind of led you down this path, DON'T make his stopping smoking be about the R or about you. Be supportive and be understanding. Don't leap to conclusions. If he is crabby, just say to him "I understand this is tough and I'm going on a walk, I'll be back when you are feeling better." Don't take it personally, because his feeling bad is not about you.
Next, regarding the ML issue you raised. Well, let me ask - is it possible that he's right, that feeling physically bad himself IS hampering his sex drive? That seems very possible to me, although I doubt that's the whole story. However, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and agree with the idea that it IS a part of the problem.
And even if there are more issues to deal with (hey, this ML stuff can be complicated, right?) - well, if he's taking one step to try and improve things, assume that's the beginning of something GOOD, not something bad! Thank him for taking that step, and ACT AS IF there will be more steps.
Do your best to encourage and support him in this. I'm not saying that for H, though - I'm saying it for YOU. Get your PMA back in gear, my dear!
Jen,
Is your H going 'cold turkey' on the cigarettes? This will only make his 'black' days worse. Try and encourage him to go to a smoking cessation clinic. They are avaiable in several places from GP surgeries to community pharmacies. They can either be in a group session or if that is not for him by himself. He wants a one on one he would be better going to see a pharmacist. Not all offer it but most of the big multiples do. All he has to do is ask. Maybe you could show your willingness to help by finding this info out for him.
Just a thought.
Keep smiling
Jen_Jam, kudos to your supreme efforts to keeping the M alive.
It's interesting when you say the H is a "want," and no longer a "need." After what you've been through, aside from saving your marriage, you have also saved yourself. And perhaps now you're even a better you (with or without him).
My congrats to you both. Lots of luck.
ACj - H is going cold turkey. he's tried gum and patches before and they make him feel worse. I have pointed out there are quit smoking support groups but I can't push him on this one, he hates being pushed. So I've left it to him. he has got the ASH website stop smoking factsheet - he'll do it in his own way.
Nara - I haven't read your sitch (sorry) but on the want not a need thing - yes H def is a want, and if you think about it it's more flattering to be wanted rather than needed. To be needed implies a lack of choice, and no-one wants to be in an R where the other person feels compelled to stay with them when they don't really want to. it's funny how all those great love songs talk about "needing" someone - how wrong they are. Listen out for the lyrics and laugh the was a true DB'er only can!!
OK ... long post alert after a few days of looking into myself.
I spent the start of the week in fear - fear that H would feel good about himself then decide he didn't want me anymore. When I was previously bombed H had been very down, almost depressed. If he bombed me when he was clear, calm and happy with his life I think there would be no way back.
BUT - then I thought "yes this is one possible future - what are the others?"
I hated being in fear of another bomb. I cannot live my life like that so have chosen not to. This requires work on MYSELF - there is little H can do to help me with this, this one comes from me and me alone. As Rob1231 wisely pointed out, I cannot fall into the trap of thinking each little downer is the start of another crises. A downer is just that. Only a downer. And I am well equipeed with the tools to get through it now.
I feel too that I don't listen to H properly - often I hear what I want to hear, then he tells me again a few more times and it's like something clicks and I finally "get" it. I need to work more on listening and really hearing what H is saying, and not jumping to awful conclusions. I had a course a week or so ago and it included something called "Active Listening". I have been trying to use these skills in all conversations I have right now, trying to develop the habit with everyone, not just H.
Then I got to thinking "I am taking the blame for this downner again". And H isn't blaming me, **I** am. So who's got to work on that? We used to have a horrid cycle in our R when I would approach H with somthing I didn't like (pre-bomb in a BAAAD way, I mean I was a total bee-ach!, post bomb far more calmly) then he would feel bad cos I felt bad, I would end up comforting him and telling him it didn't matter. I became resentful cos I felt I was the one with the problem first, then I was apologising to H for being upset. So - that cycle needs to be broken. I've managed it before and I will again. Last time I took the blame for all our M problems, in time I came to see that it wasn't all me, and that sometimes things just WERE, without blame, that we BOTH got things wrong. My taking all the blame led to me being depressed and having individual C, which actually was a good thing as it did bring up a lot of my self esteem issues and I feel I have the tools now to conquer that, and have done well so far on that.
I had approached H about his LD. I stated calmly that if nothing got done somewhere down the line I would be at risk of having an affair, and that isn't something I wanted to do. This has made H upset and I was thinking of comforting him BUT he has been trying (hading out cuddles, sending texts messsages, small things and not all I want but it's an effort so has to be applauded). So I thought "well, if I comfort him that's just going back into the old cycle". So I have decided to say no more on the LD issue. I have made my feelings quite clear, I think labouring the point would be detrimental to my goal of building intimacy.
So - that then leads me to my new DB strategy - Do Nothing. Now is the time for H to step up and I will see if he will take up the challenge. Last night I detached myself emotionally and viewed my R though very objective eyes. I decided I cannot be happy with this lack of intimacy. I have asked for what I want and I have given in my head H 3 months to show baby steps. I'm afraid that if by mid Sept this year if he has shown not one baby step then I will cut my losses. I cannot force H to change, and although I can help him by Cheerleading when he does take a baby step towards more intimacy I cannot really guide him on this. The work has to come from him, and it's up to me to create an environment where he feel comfortable to do that work. me being needy and clingy is not that environment. I have not told H about the 3 months, that would be putting pressure on him and in a way forcing him. If I get my "prize" by forcing it then it isn't worth it - I do NOT want a R where the other person feels in any way compelled to do things they really don't want to.
So - in summary I am rejecting fear, I have realised I need to listen better, I am rejecting being too hard on myself. Instead of telling myself off for getting it wrong I have decided to step back and look at how I can get things right. I have DB'ed well, and I have learned a h3ll of a lot. It's time for me to get out of my pity party and to apply those skills.
One last quote which I am remembering now - "behavioural change is a journey, not a destination." I don't know who said it, but I like it.
OK - now I'm off to get drunk. I feel stong and confident right now.
WOW Jen. You got a lot going on girl. Listen...something that kept ringing out to me as I read everything you wrote...and you seem to come to it at the end a bit...DETACHMENT! Worrying about another bomb is your own insecurity. If he leaves, he leaves. You can't control that. And you should know by now that you will be ok without him anyway. Right? I know you worked hard to get where you are right now...but it is not about winning or losing it is about what is right for YOU. That doesn't mean stick by him but it means stop worrying about losing after putting in so much effort.
As for the smoking thing....I dunno. Glad he's quiting. You know a M is a like a see saw - expect him to be down for a bit and expect to have to be up for a bit. Hopefully, he'll be able to do it and come back up and feel better than ever and then...if you need to be down...he can be up for you.
As for the intamacy thing. Nothing is more attractive than a strong, independent, detached woman. SO...see my first paragraph again.
Your good Jen...I just feel like you have gotten to wrapped up in him and your M and you are starting to lose YOU a bit. Go find you. Once you have that...all else will fall into place.
"I agree with Scott!"
hey - I agree with Scott too!!!!
Yep, i HATE being needy and desparate and clingy - so I'm going into TFM mode. What's that? You ask. It's Time For ME!!!
Easier said than done though ... so what's my first step?
Well ... today is day 1 for me of no smoking. I have my nicotine patch on, I have a cigarette sized straw I am using as a placebo ciggie (just a plain drinking straw, I like the breathing action of smoking, but I can still do that without the smoke).
Today is day 1 of TFM too ... so i'm going to take this one day at a time. Today the nice thing I am going to do for myself is .... go to the garden centre and buy myself a basil plant. In a few days my sense of tast will have improved so I can enjoy some with tomato and a bit of mozarella cheese ...yum yum!!!
Your Hs smoking may be contributing to his LD. Hopefully if he manages to conquer the nicotine monster he will have more desire. Good luck to you on your own quest to quit.
Well ... broke my rule and had an R talk!!!! Don't scream at me
I kept it short, calm and to the point and it was well received. It went something like this:
I stated I was feeling needy and didn't like feeling that way. I asked H if he'd noticed and he hadn't.
I explained I was fearful and waiting for the next bomb but that those feelings weren't his fault and I had to work on that myself.
I asked H if he was comitted to this M and our R, with the caveat that I realised it wasn't going to be sweetness and light every day. He says he is. I believe him.
I then ended the conversation, asked H if he had anything he'd like to say. he said he realised that cuddles were important to me, less so to him, and he said he would try to give me more of them. I thanked him for that and for listening. We agreed slow and easy works best for us.
He's now gone out to the gym and to meet his brother - of course I said I was fine with that because I am. he'll be back in a few hours.
So - me getting myself into a tizz .. oh ACJ I did ask if his stopping smoking might alleviate his LD he says he is hoping it will.
I'm sorry for going off on the deep end ... been reading other posts here and see there are a lot of people in far worse sitches than mine, I feel a little like an ungrateful spoilt brat. So for now I'm quitting the analysing, kicking back and just being ... thank you all for listening to me, Mrs Panic-Wobble!!!!
I feel a little like an ungrateful spoilt brat
Don't you dare! A R is a two person play. A R must meet your desires or there is no R.
Also Jenny, you do know the difference between a "R-talk" and telling your partner how you feel. You shared your feelings with H. That is great. Your broke no rule.
You did not try to change him or the R dynamic directly. You shared; now it is up to him process your feelings.
I'm with Jeff! I'm certainly not in piecing...but I have to believe as the two of you re-build this R you will both need to learn how to communicate your needs better than you have in the past. Big difference Jen. That doesn't imply nagging or being needy. What you did was state how you have been feeling...and even took ownership of those feelings. Good for you! And I hope you enjoy some Basil real soon.
Oh Dear. Now I'm on a new part of the Piecing Rollercoaster - the one where I give up trying.
I tell H straight that i'd like more affection and i still get ignored.
So I've given up. I've told him I've given up. He asked me to tell him things straight, I did and it still has no effect.
So I've given up. If H wants this M to work then i have asked for what I want. There are a lot of things I can let go but show stoppers for me are:
1. I want hugs and kisses
2. I want to be told ILY
3. I want to ML
I am not getting a lot of these. It's up to H now. I've given up trying. If he just can't do this I will walk. I cannot live like brother and sister for the rest of my life.
I'm fed up pandering to HIS ML, to HIS depression, to HIS needs. I'm not bitter, I'm just detaching. He can take care of himself right now. I've asked for what I want, if he isn't going to give me this then I'm off. He has roughly until the end of September to make at least a couple of baby steps. After that then I'm afraid it will be too late for him. Part of me wants to go now but I've been though the bomb and I know enough now to give people a bit of time.
Coming from a real "doofus" (according to Amy
) what immediately came to mind is
THIS so I'm not sure if you have it already or know about it?
JJ, sorry to see you feeling this way about things
Have you mananged to get hold of the "suggested" book at all yet??
Chin up, this can be done
(((((JEN)))))
Jen,
Your post stung a little b/c that is exactly what my H did. The difference was he didn't tell me straight what he wanted and as I was just relieved to have him home the first time I didn't feel strong enough to ask.
Now he is well and truely off in la la land. I don't want you to find yourself there it's not a very nice place.
Oh Dear. Now I'm on a new part of the Piecing Rollercoaster - the one where I give up trying.
I tell H straight that i'd like more affection and i still get ignored.
So I've given up. I've told him I've given up. He asked me to tell him things straight, I did and it still has no effect.
So I've given up. If H wants this M to work then i have asked for what I want. There are a lot of things I can let go but show stoppers for me are:
1. I want hugs and kisses
2. I want to be told ILY
3. I want to ML
I am not getting a lot of these. It's up to H now. I've given up trying. If he just can't do this I will walk. I cannot live like brother and sister for the rest of my life.
I'm fed up pandering to HIS ML, to HIS depression, to HIS needs. I'm not bitter, I'm just detaching. He can take care of himself right now. I've asked for what I want, if he isn't going to give me this then I'm off. He has roughly until the end of September to make at least a couple of baby steps. After that then I'm afraid it will be too late for him. Part of me wants to go now but I've been though the bomb and I know enough now to give people a bit of time.
You know, I think this is the biggest danger area when piecing. We are pouring our heart and soul into this. While our W/H seems to just sit back and take it all in. I have been honestly struggling with my feelings and thoughts regarding how much do I have to give without any expectation of a return?
I wish I had some words of encouragement, some insight. I don't. I think the key lies in what you posted regarding detaching. I know from my experience, when I my mindset is, 'I don't care what she is doing, I'm doing this for me' everything is so much easier. My PMA is unstoppable, I enjoy my day and I can "thought stop" anything that tries to creep in.
However, when I begin to think about us, what she is giving or not giving, my needs that aren't being met.., that's when I just want to run, not walk, to my attorney and tell him to fire off the paperwork sooner rather than later. I want to get out of this and find someone that will actually be in to me, dig having me around and enjoy doing things with me.
For me, I think about my kids. Realize that before I met W, I was happy, did outdoorsy stuff almost non-stop, spent my weekend nights dancing, checking out live music and having a blast.
What would be different now compared to then? My weekend days would be spent having a blast with my kids. Which, in retrospect, is how I spent my life before W. The weekend days I would take nieces, nephews and little cousins rollerskating, skateboarding, bike riding or any of a hundred other things you can do.
Not once during that time did I grieve the 'lack' presented by her inattention. Shoot, I didn't even know her! LOL. I try to take that approach now. I do all those things. Yes, I abso-frikkin-lutely would love for her to come along. That would be my perfect world preference. Yet only I can control the amount of pain her nonparticapation can inflict on me. I would prefer that she touch me, hang out with me, go do things with me, it doesn't happen even though that is my preference. It can only hurt me when I allow myself to substitute the word NEED for PREFERENCE.
She can't hurt me any more. I prefer her, but I don't need her. Like you Jen, I told her what I want, she knows. I won't repeat it. I haven't heard the words, I love you, from her mouth in all of 2007. It only hurts when I think I need that. I don't. I'd prefer to hear it from her, yet I do hear it from my kids, other family and friends.
I know you know my point by now. You've been doing this longer than I. As a matter of fact, I've printed out numerous posts by you to read while commuting.
Detach, detach, detach. It only hurts you when you need it. When its a preference, like a chocolate bar or milkshake, if I can't have it right now, it won't kill me, I can live without it and it will just make it that much better when I do finally get to have it.
Tyler THANK YOU!!!! This is exactly what I needed to be reminded...detach, take care of me, remember it's a priviledge to be married, not a right, and that my H only hurts me as far as I let him.
I suppose when I said "I've given up" I mean I'm giving up trying to cajoule him, make changes in me, ask him, in any way try to influence him at all. I have no control over him, it's up to him to take these steps. I'm not upset, I'm not crying or feeling depressed, I'm just waiting.
I've looked at my M with detached, objective eyes and well, I like ME a lot, but I'm not sure about my M. I don't want H to have to be someone he's not and I don't want me to have to be someone I'm not. Maybe this whole bomb disguised the problems that ALREADY were there - lack of intimacy, lack of ILY's. I had demanded these before, been sarcastic etc (pre-bomb, before I knew better). H got depressed because he couldn't "make me happy".
it's weird.... it's important to him that I'm happy, but he seems unwilling to do what I ask. On Saturday I got flowers and last week I got bubble bath ... but gifts, while they are very nice, aren't really what I was asking for (we've both done the 5Ll quiz and gifts are very low down for both of us, although H has probably forgotten that). h's next step will be to go into a depression because he can't "make me happy" at which case it's my role to step in and comfort him. Well STUFF THAT .. that's an old cycle which does neither of us any good. (I have told him that he cannot "make" me happy and H himself has even stated he believes happiness starts with oneself. I could be guessing about him going into a depression here, making assumptions, so I will bear that in mind).
It just seems that H could lose me and doesn't seem to care... oh well, whatever, nevermind. His loss.
Sweet sweet Jen, Tyler pretty well covered anything that I would add to your situation....
Just know that you are certainly loved by many on these boards and we are all so proud of all you have done even to get where you are today. You are a blessed person Jen....
Get yourself back into line now and finish what you have started.....
Ian
Hi Jen
Haven't been on the boards for a while now and decided to read yours to see how you are doing. I seem to be feeling like you in that I can really feel myself getting angry inside because after all my hard work to stop the D I feel I'm "owed" something - I seem to keep needing to talk about how much H hurt me when he left. I also feel exhausted from walking on eggshells and not being able to say what I feel or think and am also utterly sick and tired of worrying that he is going to leave me again. Maybe like you say it is an inevitable part of getting back together. It feels to me that things will never ever be the same in my heart again because I know he is capable of causing me so much pain.
Anyway....enough about me agreeing with you - what I wanted to say was something about your ML troubles. It seems a bit wrong offering advice as you have been my "sage" throughout DB and you are a DB hero but when reading your words about the ML issue you don't say what you do. (apologies if you have said any of this previously btw) What I mean is you are saying you want H to hug and kiss and ML to you. I know where you're coming from because that is my LL and I prefer to have H approach me. What I mean though is do you try to ML to him or kiss him? If you do does he brush you off with an excuse or does he respond? All I'm thinking is if you don't tend to approach H how about trying that for a while. It is very hard for someone not to respond and start wanting it more (unless there is a medical problem) when their partner is always showing them how desired they are. Maybe when he goes to just peck try to turn it into a really great proper kiss. When you're in bed cuddle up and try to do something you know gets him going and tell him how much you fancy him. I just know that my H tends to get a bit like yours and since I've been doing things like that and showing him how I really feel about him
there seems to be no stopping him now!
Hope haven't offended you and hope this may be an option to try out rather than waiting to see if H does something. Just get on in there and get what you want!!!
IP
OK, I have promised an update and been meaning too... a lot has happened in the past week, all of it good (I think).
So I was in the "I've given up" mode. What I meant by that was I have given up trying to work out where H's head is at and I've given up letting his moods affect me. I call that part of detachment and it feels good.
I feel now I am truly happy with myself. I like the way I deal with things, I am very self aware, I am different to the person I was 2 years ago, not completely, I feel I've become the person I've always aspired to be (well - almost, but hey change is a journey, not a destination). Right now there are no major aspects of me that are destructive - I can now manage my anger and jealousy well. Yes, I still feel them and that's fine, but now I know a LOT more in how to deal with these in a way that doesn't p!ss off others.
OK - so onto H. Somehow on Monday night we ended up having a talk - where I again stated my feelings clearly. On Monday night I was tired and a little grumpy (in fact, on Tues night I came down with a cold, I often get grumpy just before I get ill). So H wasn't hugging me. As I went to bed I gave him a hug and he looked relieved, turns out he wasn't hugging me cos "I wasn't sure if you wanted me to or not".
At this point let me scream - SDFound girl will understand how I feel here - AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
That's better
I then stated calmly that I had already asked him for more cuddles, etc and that was what I wanted. I pointed out that these were very important to me and I asked my H if he wanted to help make our M a happy one. He said yes. Well, his exact words were "I am not going to let all of this go, I am not a person to say I'm bored now and walk of". So I'm happy with that. I then pointed out that the cuddles etc were important and that if nothing changed then there was a risk of me becoming a WAW.
I said a few things, can't remember the exact words, in fact I didn't say that much, so different to my old R talks, this talk was very to the point. My points were:
1. I want cuddles, ML and ILY's. These are vital to me
2. I am happy with myself and feel there is little "work" I can or want to do on myself right now
3. H has stated before his LD is all his problem, thus I said it was up to him to work on it. I was not going to dictate to him what to do or how to do it, he would need to figure it out, but if he wanted help from me I would be happy to provide that.
4. If he didn't do this he risks me becoming a WAW. I said this was not a threat, but I had seen it happen a lot of times.
5. H then said "let's have a talk tomorrow" and I replied that I'd done all the talking I wanted to, I had nothing more to say but would listen to him if and when he wanted to.
And that's it. Some might say I was demanding and threatening, I tried hard to present this (and even said it) not as a threat but as a warning. I told him so many LBS's get bombed in what they feel is "out of the blue" and that they wish their WAS could have sat down with them and communicated very clearly what was wrong. I was trying to do just that. i also stated right now I have no intention of becoming a WAS, that it's not what I want.
Then I dropped it - no mention of it since, the ball is in H's court, my task is to encourage the positive steps he makes.
And - he's made positive steps!!! I have been getting cuddles and I got TWO!!!!!!!!! ILY's last night - that makes a total of four this year. We were sitting outside drinking and talking and he had dug out all the music we played at our wedding (we have it on CD's). Then as a couple of tracks were playing he said "this takes me back to that day, it was one of the happiest days of my life and listening to these songs again makes me realise how important you are to me". Then I got an ILY. Also - when we went to bed I think he was trying to initiate but ... I wasn't in the mood, I've just got over this cold, had had a bad day at work, just needed to sleep. I didnt say anything but I will encourage his next attempt (no point me saying I want more ML then turning him down all the time!!!). H had also tidied up the house and done the shopping, which makes my day today a little easier (he has Fridays off work, I have Saturdays off, we both get Sundays off).
So - all in all I have asked for what I want, stated it clearly a few times, I think it's FINALLY sunk in - so now, what do I do? I'm going to sit back, enjoy this, not be bitter about what didn't go on in the past but look to the present and the future, encourage it, I feel that the final piece is going into place. it's funny - i've stopped trying to guess what H is thinking, it feels good. I criticise him for trying to guess what i'm thinking - ha ha, seems we BOTH fell into that trap
Anyhoo- waffled enough. I hope all of you are doing well, and would like to finish with a quote I found inspiring for me at this time:
"Goals are a mean to an end, not the ultimate purpose of our lives. They are a tool to concentrate our focus and move us in a direction.The only reason we persue goals is to cause ourselves to expand and grow. Achieving goals by themselves will not make us happy in the long term; it's who you become as you overcome the obstacles neccessary to achieve your goals that can give you the deepest and most long lasting sense of achievement."
(Anthony Robbins)
Hey Ip - thanks for the post - we cross posted!!! You make a LOT of very good points about ML ... will have to have a think about these questions, please bear with me, I'm glad you're with me on this cos I could use your advice on the ML issue especially (you and I are now full members of the DB Councel and thus can advise each other ebing full DB masters now
).
I;ll have a think today and post a reply today/tomorrow
PS am hoping ML might not be a problem this weekend - I am having an Anne Summers party tonight, got the chance to buy a few naughty treats!!!
So - all in all I have asked for what I want, stated it clearly a few times, I think it's FINALLY sunk in - so now, what do I do? I'm going to sit back, enjoy this, not be bitter about what didn't go on in the past but look to the present and the future, encourage it, I feel that the final piece is going into place. it's funny - i've stopped trying to guess what H is thinking, it feels good. I criticise him for trying to guess what i'm thinking - ha ha, seems we BOTH fell into that trap
Hey Jen, That's great - just want to remind you that he may backslide a bit over time. Hey - it happens to the best of us, right? If/when that happens, don't panic - just help him get back on track. After all, there are no "final" steps to this - it is a never-ending journey.
And good luck with the party and afterwards!
Awesome Jen!!! A few weeks ago we talked on her about the difference between R talks and communicating your needs. That is what you did and it seems to have paid off nicely.
Oh Jen...no advice dear, just a ITOTALLYUNDERSTANDYOURFRUSTRATIONHANGINTHEREDRINKLOTSOFWINE/BEER/SHOOTERSUNTILHECATCHESUPWITHYOU.
I think this is our opportunity to see the sitch through our H's eyes when they were the WAS. I keeps us from demonizing them and gives us a sorely needed perspective. We're also more aware of how we're feeling and why because we have to be...and this little bomb for our H's also helps them do a little soul searching, see the sitch through our eyes.
I think this process is repeated throughout a marriage to a lesser degree. We want the fairy tale, but the fairy tale doesn't exist. Marriage is hard, hard work. Worth it? That still remains to be seen.
Hang in there sweetie. Sorry I've been an ostrich lately...just having a rough time as I navigate the end of the school year and my feelings about my H.
Wanna spend a couple weeks in Guatemala? I'm looking for a traveling partner....
SD
Just stopping by to say hello.
(((hugs)))
hey BND thanks for the shout!!
Quick update - the past few weeks have been FAB!!!! I feel "there" right now. I feel comfortable enough to voice my feelings, I have a little DB voice in my head which keeps me on the straight and narrow, I've learnt to back off sometimes and apologise when I'm wrong.
H's LD is on the way out, which is great! I'm getting flowers, ILY's, friendship, everything I could want. I've even felt brave enough to bring up moving to the coast. H's job may be relocating, there's a chance we can move to Brighton. I'm really up for it, my family live nearby (which can be a good or bad thing, ha ha!!) and it's a more relaxed way of life. Basically, I'd like to go cos I'll be 37 in December and where we live now I feel like I'm wasting away. Woo HOO!!! MLC for me - ha ha!!!
The good thing I've noticed is that when I get an idea I will throw myself into it 110%, which is good cos it gets things moving. H is more cautious, which is good as it means things get done properly and we can be sure it's the right thing. My way is bad cos I can bulldoze people, H's way is bad cos if left to his own devices, nothing would ever get done. What I'm saying is I've noticed the good and the bad in both of us and how well we compliment each other - H reigns me in, I give H the push to get going he sometimes needs. The result is well balanced.
Ok - gotta go, h back and we're off to get tiddled!!! Love and sloppy kisses to all. M-WAH!!! M-WAH!! xxxxx
What a beautiful post, Jen. SOOOO happy for you - keep up the terrific work and the frequent tiddling!
Awesome, Jen! I love that you see that you & H's strengths also have corresponding weaknesses. It's a good reminder for me!
Have fun getting tiddled...I got tiddled last night and I'm paying for it today!
Glad things are working out for you!!!
SD
The good thing I've noticed is that when I get an idea I will throw myself into it 110%, which is good cos it gets things moving. H is more cautious, which is good as it means things get done properly and we can be sure it's the right thing. My way is bad cos I can bulldoze people, H's way is bad cos if left to his own devices, nothing would ever get done. What I'm saying is I've noticed the good and the bad in both of us and how well we compliment each other - H reigns me in, I give H the push to get going he sometimes needs. The result is well balanced.
That is so true of many here, only most (like me) find it out too late. The "dominate" partner takes control to get things done but then is considered *controlling* by the other partner.
You have found balance and that is wonderful. Wonderful, but SO SO difficult to maintain b/c of our very nature to keep things moving.
Give when you can but set boundaries. Not many boundaries - life is too short to sweat the small stuff. Let your H be who he is and I think you both will do well. Continue to share your feelings - discussing feelings is the best way to avoid the "bulldozing".
Hey Jen--
Great advice from Jeff. You need to go read his post...he is being mean to himself. Please tell him to love and be kind to himself.
SD
Awesome Jen! You sound wonderful hun. YAY Jen. I too like Jeff's advice. Be careful...just because you see and can appreciate the balance doesn't mean H does. So he could see it as being pushed if not done correctly....but I am sure you will.
Brilliant news Jen. Congrats
Hope you are out getting tiddled sweetie!
Hey Jen--
Would you go check on BiscuitMom in newcomers? Wallowing wallower...she needs some help.
SD
What's up with you Jen?
Hey--I'm wondering....did you get angry with your H when he was trying? I guess some context would be good...I've been working my butt off lately to deal with LW and my feelings about last summer. Because of that, I've been pretty much in my little cave. I've explained this to H, that it's b/c I'm taking care of this issue so it's not standing between us. Anyway, now H is sooooo far up my crannies it's making me crazy. Maybe he's feeling a little afraid, but it's making me nutso. Anyway, H taped a show for me b/c I went out for a while, and when I asked him which performer he liked best, he wouldn't tell me b/c he didn't want to ruin the suspense. I wanted to rip his head off...I mean, who is he to decide for ME? I didn't yell or do any of that old stuff, just told him I wouldn't have asked the question if I didn't want to know the answer. I wish he would just focus on his own crap instead of hovering all over me...grrrr.
Thoughts?
SD
Well, journalling really ... nothing good nor bad to report.
H has been dishing out the ILY's. We talked of his LD ... sometimes my weight has put him off. ouch!!! But I did ask the question ....
Last pieces .... there are 2 big things wrapped up in my mind with my M crisis - smoking and losing weight.
In 2004 gave up smoking, great! By November I was really fat and hated it. I joined Weight Watchers, and really regimented my life.
This upset H, I regimented him too
Silly mistake, but it did happen to co-incide with his mini MLC (he was saying things like "I don't feel I can go out like I used to" "I miss being in my 20's" (I didn't occur to him that a man of 18 can drink 10 pints, get 4 hours sleep and be OK in the morning, but a man of 36 can't .. and it's just a fact of life he wanted to rebel against... he had to come to terms with it. He thought I was holding him back, so I dropped all control and he saw his MLC for what it was, ie NOT MY FAULT). Anyway ....
So now on a subconcious level I'm thinking I can have a happy M OR I can lose weight and not smoke ... this is nuts! So I've decided now is the time to LET GO of that subconcious link ... and lose the flab. Not easy for a girl who loves her food (luckily I like exercise too, but if I wanted to eat all I want to I'd need to walk for about 10 hours a day, and I have an office job ...)
I told H I'd like to lose weight, I've found a great book about using CBT (cognitive based therapy) for it. It advocates examining your eating and exercise habits and making minor, manageable changes, monitoring the results and adjusting where you need to. Sound familiar?... yes I can DB my own body!!!!!!
H asked how he could help, I said serve me up smaller portions, don't put butter on my toast, a few other things. I suggested if he wants chocolate he brings home ones I don't like (with fruit and nuts in) and I won't feel deprived.
I have also quit my job (I have a new on starting next Monday - I have this week off). I felt I was gettin no-where in my old job, I am like most people in that I like to feel I'm achieving something, my old job was bringing me down. So roll on the new one. And this week I'm cleaning the house top to bottom - really feel like I am DOING something, rather than just letting everything build up. Cleaning therapy, if you like (and no, I am NOT available to clean other houses, before you ask LOL
)
So .. to end this post yes my M is good but it isn't automatically so. The big honeymoon period - well there are honeymoon days, there are days H and I are just friends and there are days I want to wring his neck. I suppose this is normal married life.
But I fully agree love is a decision .... on my low days I could ride off into the sunset with a good looking stranger but my M is worth more than that. To keep it happy and good I need to look to myself first. All of my happiness starts within myself, this is the biggest lesson I have learned from all of this.
Oh ... and housework ....
I liked to keep the house tidy, this used to stress H out (another part of my "regimenting" his life, you see")
So ... I dropped the housework for ages ... not difficult ... but now it's back.
I'm keeping an eye on my weight
I'm not smoking
I'm making sure the house is clean, the bills are paid etc
I don't see anything wrong with me living my life like that. So I'm going to start my life again. H will stay with me or he won't. I'll still be living my life (btw, he is very much WITH me!!). I'm controlling what I can, dropping the rest. Sometimes I have to put some control over the joint account. It affects me. H used to see this as me getting in his way ... he has finally realised I'm only saying "maybe we shouldn't spend £4,000 on more hi-fi equipment when we have £6,000 on a credit card. Once upon a time this piece of perfect common sense would be me ruining H's life, bringing him down.
It's amazing what MLC'ers will think
But the bad times are over ... best not to dwell on them, only learn from them. I see H changing now, it's good. He's said it himself, when we discussed me losing weight, he said "I'm in a much better place now to be able to deal with it if you wanted to go on a diet". Fact is, I don't want to diet, just make small changes and gradually lose a little at a time.
But the alien that invaded my H has now left ... time to let in this new and improved H. My old M is dead, long live my new M!!
You have come so far. Remember this from 4 June 2006 in a response you posted to a post I made to you?
Unhappy in 2004 - purely being fat. When I was growing up my Dad used to tell me I should never get fat cos then no-one would love me. H never thought like this - he had no issue with me being fat, but he didn't like to see me unhappy. He is happy I feel better, but he found our life during the diet to be "too regimented". Pre diet, we used to have a lot of fun drinking cans of beer then getting a pizza or Chinese, then eating chocolates after that. We used to eat a lot of cheese too - macaroni cheese and feta cheese caneloni were our favourite meals, and I refused to cook these or let him cook them.
Why last Sept - his response was "I feel trapped". He seemed in a mini depression - "I have no enjoyment of anything in life".
Blame - I was the selfish and thoughtless one, in my mind I was unhappy with myself but I could have dealt with it a whole lot better. I told him that I had to change and our lifestyle had to change. OK, maybe that's not such a bad thing but what he heard was "our life together is making me miserable". I can be a bit of a drama queen and shout a lot, crying to get my way. I probably did some of that too.
And now:
So now on a subconcious level I'm thinking I can have a happy M OR I can lose weight and not smoke ... this is nuts! So I've decided now is the time to LET GO of that subconcious link ... and lose the flab. Not easy for a girl who loves her food (luckily I like exercise too, but if I wanted to eat all I want to I'd need to walk for about 10 hours a day, and I have an office job ...)
I told H I'd like to lose weight, I've found a great book about using CBT (cognitive based therapy) for it. It advocates examining your eating and exercise habits and making minor, manageable changes, monitoring the results and adjusting where you need to. Sound familiar?... yes I can DB my own body!!!!!!
H asked how he could help ...
Same person? I think not!
Same H? Yes, only more lucky
Yes, you have grown so, so much.
You sound great, Jen. Having to separate actions for ME, because *I* need them and H's reaction to the way I did them in the past has been an issue for me, too. I realized there were things I was doing/not doing b/c of H, and in the longterm, that's just not healthy. I've put some boundaries into place, making sure H knows it's not about him, it's about me.
You sound just wonderful. And thanks for the feedback on my thread...your wisdom is always much appreciated!
SD
Hi jeff ... thank you for the observation ... and of course thanks to the fabulous SD too, it's been good and it continues to be good to have you along, our H's and sitches are so spookily similar at times.
Jeff.. I think H is changing too. I find myself sometimes expecting the old him and get pleasantly surprised...opps, he's home, more later
Right ... as I was saying, H has changed too.
SD you will relate to this cos I asked him what it was that brought him out of his mini MLC and he said "I don't know it wasn't a concious decision" GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
But I find him repeating some of the things I have said over the past couple of years ... eg "people make themselves happy", "life sometimes isn't fair" ... so it looks like it's been some kind of DB osmosis.
He's not a quitter. He said so himself. He def went through some kind of MLC or depression. He doesn't like people who give up too easily .... he believes that each problem DOES have an answer, it's just that some answers are harder to find than others.
At times I find myself reacting to the old H, at times I have to force myself to rememeber he's changed. I must say it does take a long time of consistent change to convince someone you have changed. I remember early on in my sitch I got discouraged cos H didn't accept I'd changed. Now I realise it's taken me most of this year to accept H has changed. Patience ... slow and steady wins.
So - in essence both H and I have changed and the way we interact has vastly changed. Life is good.
At times I find myself reacting to the old H, at times I have to force myself to rememeber he's changed. I must say it does take a long time of consistent change to convince someone you have changed. I remember early on in my sitch I got discouraged cos H didn't accept I'd changed. Now I realise it's taken me most of this year to accept H has changed. Patience ... slow and steady wins.
Ohhhhhh.....do I get THIS. H *does* slip, but don't we all when we're learning a new habit or behavior? Didn't WE do that ourselves in this process? Yet...I still look for those slips and have been focusing on the slips rather than all the wonderful things H does differently 90% of the time.
Thanks, Jen, for posting this. EXACTLY what I needed to see this morning!
And be patient with yourself regarding H...like you want him to be with you as you occasionally slip...
SD
Jen,
Although I am unlikely to be in the same position as you it is comforting to know that at least some MLCers do finally get clearer vision!
You sound great. How's the stopping smoking going?
Hi Jen! You sound so good hun. Head is certainly on straight. YAY!
Hi Jen, Just wanted to say, I appreciate that you and SD continue to hang around here with us, sharing the ongoing process of Piecing. The fun never ends, eh?
You've been an inspiration for me and many others, and continue to be.
I've found a great book about using CBT (cognitive based therapy) for it
Hi JenJam! Just catching up on your sitch, and wondering what is the name of that book to help one lose weight? I lost about 32 lbs (the ol' MLC diet), and put back 20 lbs since being in Piecing. I really would like to lost that and another 30 lbs more.
You seem to be doing well with your M, and I can only hope to get to your level one day.
Oops, the book is this one
Oercoming Weight Problems Sorry for the delay in the reply!!!
Update - life is wonderful, my M is happy, my H is freely handing out kisses, cuddles and ILY's, he is being supportive and listening to me.
In turn, I am remembering to appreciate him, to accept him and to sit back and fuss less. I have had a horrid work situation of late and a couple of times have snapped at him - I've made sure the apology isn't far behind!
So - all in all life now is excellent. We have managed to not only rebuild our M but it's better than it was before. We have a better understanding of each other and a far greater acceptance of each other - we are far far less judegmental than we used to be. We have a lot of fun together too, that's very important.
Jen that's fantastic news. Hows the quitting smoking going?
Jen that's fantastic news. Hows the quitting smoking going?
Errr.....it was good, then I'm back to "social" smoking.
We are off to the Isle of Wight for a week on Thursday, we have both decided we will not beat ourselves up about having a few cigs there (going to Bestival, it's like a mini Glastonbury) the when we come back I'm not smoking. I am also getting back to the gym as I'm getting flabby again.
Life's been a bit up and down for a couple of months (I changed jobs then realised I'd made a mistake, got my old job back though and H has been really really busy with his job, loads of overtime). Once we come back from holiday it's clean slate and healthy living for us both. In the meantime I'm making sure the smoking does say social only, a few cigs with a beer.
Well if it helps this is a fairly typical scenario. Thing is now you know you can do it if you want to so next time should be easier.
And one other thing that is helping too is the smoking ban. We've had a bad summer but it's still to easy to go and sit outside the pub. Come October when it's cold, dark and pouring with rain the attraction in nipping outside for a smoke will disappear. So - I hope that after autumn, winter and spring of not smoking I will finally have it licked.
And the most important thing about giving up smoking - don't give up on giving up
Jen - I have read through your posts and you are truly inspirational. I am so happy for you that you & your H are in a good place and that you have such a positive outlook on things. It is stories like yours that give us all hope that we can come out of this insanity that we are in with something better. If you have time, I would love any advice that you could give me - I am over at newcomers. Thanks!
Well... I have been meaning to update for some time but never got round to it ... blame it on an addiction to Facebook!
I always thought as well that there was no point me posting when things are good... then i realised that's EXACTLY when I should be recording it ... so that I can have a record of what works!!!
So .. all in all life is getting great and the memory of the bomb is fading. I will never forget it but it doesn't cast its shadow over everything I do and say like it used to. I've noticed a lot of the things I did when I was DB'ing now come naturally .. letting go of control, stepping back and allowing others to just be, choosing my battles wisely and if all else fails well just ring up a good friend and arrange to go out and have some fun.
looking back, my H was in a mild MLC/depression. There was no OW thankfully, he would just sit about and look depressed. Life held no enjoyment for him. Yes our R was bad, **I** was doing things wrong (shouting, demanding, pressing the guilt button) but those things I manage to avoid on the whole now.
I've noticed about me as well ... I'm a massive procrastinater. I used to blame other people/things for getting in my way, stopping me doing things. Now I realise the only person stopping me getting off my butt and cleaning the house/filing those bills/painting the hallway is... ME. I fully believe my first stop in solving any problem whatsoever is me. I will look to myself to see what I need to do, then if I need help from others I will identify what that is and ASK for it. Not demand, ASK.
H .. well as I said he used to be in a mini MLC/depression. He felt all the fun was gone from life. He felt regimented by me. Well ... I dropped all control yet he would still ask me "what should I do?" about various things (where to go out, what to have for dinner etc etc) and I would just feel angry - he got what he wanted and yet STILL he wanted to shove responsibility my way. How did I best deal with this? Weell, I think I refused to take the responsibilty, but I didn't do it in and angry way, just a very non confrontational way. There is a story about anger being a gift and refusing to accept it. I would view H's attempts to put responsibilty back to me as a gift and I would gently refuse it.
So .. he came round. He realised now my attempts to pay off our credit card bills, to budget effectivly etc are not to spoil his fun (as he used to view it) and he actually thanked me for sorting out the finances. I pointed out I didn't want to spoil his fun and his words? "they were my deamons".
He is handing out the cuddles and ILY's .. I did ask for these quite a bit. One of the probs I felt was H didn't make time for me, that I ame a poor 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc in his life. What came first was the gym. That is now changing. I needed a lot of patience there!
And I had another ah-ha moment of late. I realised in all things I had been going about my life and thinking "what is the right way to act? How should I deal with this?". now, in a tricky situation that is a good thing to do. But I was doing it for EVERYTHING, I mean 24/7. So I realised I was reacting to a situation that has now passed, and I thought "let it go". I have a new mott in life, I got from a wise man on these boards:
Just be.
i can now just be. It feels good. I am aware things could go wrong again, nothing in life comes with a guarantee, but then the sky could fall down tomorrow, it could rain, Scotland might not get through the Euro 2008 qualifiers ... all these things are in the future and also out of my control. My focus is on the present and what i can control.
Hmm... I think I will update a bit more regularly. I do lurk a lot and jump in if I can help.
If you're reading this and in newcomers, well it does take a long time but if you work at it there is a good chance you will feel happiness, whatever happens with your M.
If you're in piecing I would say .... Piecing is SO LONG! For me it took a good year. And I always thought I was further ahead than I actually was!
'Just Be'
I like that....
A good and wonderful friend of mine said this to me when I was stressing about what to do about h and my sitch. He said...
"We are human beings, not human doings"
Very wise man.
looking back, my H was in a mild MLC/depression. There was no OW thankfully, he would just sit about and look depressed. Life held no enjoyment for him. Yes our R was bad, **I** was doing things wrong (shouting, demanding, pressing the guilt button) but those things I manage to avoid on the whole now.
I've noticed about me as well ... I'm a massive procrastinater. I used to blame other people/things for getting in my way, stopping me doing things. Now I realise the only person stopping me getting off my butt and cleaning the house/filing those bills/painting the hallway is... ME. I fully believe my first stop in solving any problem whatsoever is me. I will look to myself to see what I need to do, then if I need help from others I will identify what that is and ASK for it. Not demand, ASK.
I am just so proud of you. It seems you were both in depression back then and I remember your self-esteem was low then. But YOU decided to do something about it. And you did. That took so much courage and determination.
That determination was not matched at first by H - that caused him to lag behind. Plus I bet he did not *trust* your changes or maybe he even *feared* them b/c we all fear change to some extent.
But now he is doing better. And so are you.
Go girl.
And DO keep posting.
huggs.
I think getting on and at least journaling what's going on and how we're feeling and dealing w/ certain sitches that are going on NOW not only help ourselves, but help others going through their own sitches as well.
This might sound horrible, but a lot of times when I'm feeling down or frustrated, etc., I think about other people's sitches here and remind myself where I WAS and where I/we are NOW and just feel grateful and blessed that we made it through and aren't back where we were almost a year ago.
This might sound horrible, but a lot of times when I'm feeling down or frustrated, etc., I think about other people's sitches here and remind myself where I WAS and where I/we are NOW and just feel grateful and blessed that we made it through and aren't back where we were almost a year ago.
that doesn't sound horrible AT ALL. I do that a lot - it helps me so much to see the progress made.
1 year ago - i was in IC, depressed, hated myself, felt like life was hopeless and everyone hated me. Now I really do like myself and it feels so good.
I guess I just don't like feeling like I'm somehow getting some "good" out of other people's bad. As in I read some of the people here that are still having such a hard time and think "man, I'm glad I'm not there anymore," but I still feel bad that they are still there.
Just to record a positive....
On Friday, I finished work and was ready for a BIG unload of "what a week i've had, blah blah blah" etc etc. Poor H was ill with a cold and wasn't in the mood for talking, just schlomping on the sofa.
I had arranged to meet a friend in town for a couple of drinks and a meal.
Old me - would have stayed at home with H, trying to "make him feel better" and not getting my need to chat met.
New me = left H at home, went out with my friend, got my need to chat sated, H had a good time at home with the TV and a nap.
Result = everyone wins!!!
I am glad now I don't feel i "have to" do things like stay at home with H when he's ill, that by going out I'm not being a bad W, in fact quite the opposite!
Good for you! Honestly, piecing or not, your number one priority MUST be taking care of YOU. If YOU aren't meeting your needs, you cannot be of use to anyone else.
I still feel guilty sometimes, but then I remind myself of how resentful, impatient, and uncompassionate I am if I'm not in a good space. The best way to be loving to my H is to be loving to ME first. It's only then that I have anything to give.
SD
It just shows once again - a good marriage isn't a destination, it's a journey. Good job, Jen!
Oh dear - guess who thought they were emailling one friend with the words "I incurred a lot of credit card debt when H decided he didn't love me and wanted a D - thankfully that nasty episode is behind us now" and accidently hit "reply to all"?
EEKK!!!
OK, I am feeling a lot of bad feeling towards H. He's done nothing wrong lately, but I KNOW he did "nothing concious" to get himself out of his depression, while I worked SO DARNED HARD on me ... I can hold my hand on my heart and say that I will never again be that horrid, mean, scared, lowly person I once was and when i feel myself slipping back there I have the tools to get me back to my wonderful self pretty quick.
I can't say the same of H. What on earth is to stop him slipping off into another alien baby mode? it's all going great for him right now, but I just wonder what will happen when the [censored] hits the fan again - will he just fall over?
he's just come up while I was typing this and asked what was wrong, had he done anything etc etc. i told him I would tell him in 2 days (the 48 hour rule, no point me making decisions of any kind when i'm like this, I need a cool head) then he started apologising that we're not going out and he's watching the rugby world cup final ... I just told him that the rugby is no problem and asked him to stop trying to guess what the problem was, i'd tell him in 2 days as I promised. ARGH!!! Whay does he STILL think he's a mind reader?
Sorry - I feel a bit bad posting this when there are others on here still trying to cope with having their still beating hearts ripped out of their chests (I have yet to come across a pain so intense as when your spouse tells you they don't love you and want a D). I suppose I am posting as a piecing record, I notice not many hang about after piecing, could be "woo hoo I'm happy don't need that site anymore" or could be "i just want to forget it happened and focus on the future". Am I clinging to the past too much? Or is this just a symptom of H's method of "no talks" during our bad times, when I had to push all my needs aside. Am I just bitter? Am I clinging on to the past? Do I want some kind of revenge? ARGH!!!!
I'll post more later, but I've been "reliving" my whole D sitch lately too. It seems nice for them to just go on "as if" nothing ever happened and we are/were the ones to work so hard to keep it all together and still have the recurring "nightmares" of what happened.
I'm sticking around too in piecing, as I don't ever want to forget the lessons I've learned, although it is kind of difficult at times b/c, like you said, I don't want to step on any toes by being so incredibly happy that my M got a second chance as others are still going through what I went through.
I think we have a fine line to walk as far as "clinging to the past," as we don't want to continually dwell, but also don't want to ever get ourselves in the rut we were in which led to the whole nightmare to begin with.
I think we have a RIGHT to be a bit bitter at times
Revenge, nah, but at times I think we wish they had even the slightest idea of the feelings we had to go through during the whole D sitch. It was entirely different for them.
Hi Jen Jam -
I've never posted to you before, but always appreciate the insight you offer - great stuff!
I can't help but jump up and down to your post and scream yes yes yes! It is so easy to hold this stuff against my H. I have come to understand though, in terms of my sitch, that I hang onto that stuff as some sort of protection. If I let it all go and forgive him completly and leave the crap in the past that means I'm opening myself up to possibly being hurt again. This is the most painful stuff of life and by totally forgiving we are vulnerable and have to trust that they won't hurt us again - crazy, right? In so many ways the hurt spouse has so much more work to do than the offending spouse. I know that I hold onto the past and the hurt and I know I do it because it's easier to hang onto it then it is to trust him again. I don't think you want revenge, I think you want to trust your H and you're scared. If you wanted revenge you would have Carrie Underwood-ed him by now.
One more thing to add that I thought about is that the pain WE felt is totally different than anything our spouses will ever understand.
I do validate my H's feelings in the fact that he obviously felt hurt, anger, etc. which was what led him to wanting a D in the first place and I make sure I remember that he had his pain as well, but I cannot imagine it even comes close to mirroring what we went through.
Yes, yes yes.........
Saffie
(((jen_jam)))
Please don't feel bad.. it's all part of what we go through!
I wonder how many stop posting and are embarassed because they don't make it... I was that way for awhile, thought "I'm a success story, it's busted!" And then was almost embarassed to post when it was obvious my sitch was falling apart.
Not saying that's happening with you, just saying it really could be anything. And even if it's all great...
I know for me personally I appreciate those of you who still post to give everyone hope!! Yes there are bad times but there are so many good times, too.
I hope you are feeling a bit better today.
I can empathise with how you feel. All your comments struck a chord.
saffie
Wow - thank you sooooo much for the replies. I half expected a load of 2x4's along the lines of "you've got what you waneted be darned grateful" ... which is what i tell myself sometimes.
RHW - yes I believe too the WAS can never fully understand how it is. I described it to H once as "the most crushing pain anyone can ever have". I'm still not sure he gets it. I feel I gave him a lot of understanding so would like some back. Maybe I'll get it, maybe not.
Ediemarie - "I hold onto the past and the hurt and I know I do it because it's easier to hang onto it then it is to trust him again." OH YES!!! This sums it up very well.
Nikki - I had a lot of false starts on "we've made it!". My thread is entitled "happy together at long last" but I'm not so sure ... we ARE happy now, i'm just wondering if somethign bad in life comes along will H retreat once more into his depression and freeze me out. I've ben asking myself - what will it take? Perhaps I have to wait until a bad situation comes along then see how H reacts ... remember showing is far more powerful than telling.
I've been reading the sticky at the top of this forum too .... seems the LBS's go through this a lot, even if there is no affair (my H had no OW, not even an EA). Everyone talks of the something lost and the rebuilding of trust. The following all struck a chord with me:
"I think forgiveness must come in bits and pieces. And, I think the bigger the lies, the more "acts" of betrayal, the longer it takes to be able to totally forgive. In all honesty, I'm not certain it's even possible to give total forgiveness -- at least in my situation. I'm just aiming for some sort of inner peace for myself and reaching a level of forgiveness that I can live with comfortably.
I think there may also be an element of wanting revenge that plays into the inability to totally forgive. That is also something I struggle with daily. The need for my H to experience the incredible pain he caused me.
Intellectually I understand how counterproductive that thinking is -- really, I do. It's just that sometimes I think I made it too easy for him.
I HAVEN'T said "IFY", and CJ isn't exactly "paying for what he did for the rest of his life"....wait a minute, what if he thinks he IS???
You know, who KNOWS how MUCH the WA feels they "owe" us...if at all ...I sometimes think CJ feels the score is even (that's my analogy, of the two of us I'm probably more of a score-keeper )...because of how controlling, angry etc. I WAS before.
Maybe it takes some time? I don't know folks....I vascillate between being very optimistic and sinking into funks.
Wonder if it would help to track the progress on a longer term basis...instead of all the weekly, daily, hourly ups and downs, what's the overall trend over time...I'll bet in many cases it's a slow rise.....
Has anyone here NOT experienced this???? We're so happy to have our M's "back" at first...then we wonder when it's our turn ...will we always be the ones trying to make it work?
"one of the things I realized is this...for the betraying partner the "healing" process is easier or faster because they actually on some level have been dealing with it since the begining of deceit..now that it's out and done with they can move on. we on the other hand are new to the info and therefore take longer to process it. imagine if you will a time in the future when you no longer even think about this time...when the a is not something that even passes your thoughts...then all of a sudden w starts to want to talk about it...wants to appologize all the time...or let you know when she get's upset with things that remind her of what she did. how would that make you feel? would you not wish that she would just get over it and put it in the past. I know it's hard to fathom a time when we won't want to hear our spouses say sorry and show empathy and remourse for what they've done...but I'd bet it could and probably would happen that way."
You want your H to be your friend and lover, but these things won't come without trust. You might think you hide it well, I thought I did. But, maybe I didn't so well, and it certainly blocked me from taking the leaps necessary for the intimacy in the kind of R I wanted. I wanted to stay safe and have my H cross the intimacy divide alone to get to my side. I felt it was his responsibility to do all the work, that he owed it to me for causing the rift to begin with. So, think of a tightrope. I wanted H to cross the tightrope alone to get to my landing, and thought then we would be where we should be. But, true intimacy only comes when both people take the risk, walk toward each other on the tightrope, and help each other balance in the middle.
it seems most often that the was takes the attitude of "I'm glad that's over and I got away with it now let's keep it in the past"...
but if we listen closely we might actually hear "I don't ever want to revisit that time in my life again"
sure they did someting extremely crappy that we will "live" with for the rest of our lives...did they get off scott free because we accepted them back anyway???
NOPE!
my h is one of those that has the ole "act as if" down pat...so much so that at times I sit and think to myself..what a raw deal I got here..he's happy as can be and I am left with the scars of what he did..sure we have a better r than before and it's improving still but what a price and why should I be the one to feel that pain.
welp guess what!? in one of the few productive "arguments" that h and I have had...I've learned that he does have to deal with it...and will deal with it for the rest of his life..not by my punishing him for it but simply for the shame he feels (and of course I'd selfishly hope a little bit of guilt for the pain he caused me in doing so).
"
RHW - PS I am a red head too!!
red heads rock
Well, and in our sitch's, being the woman, we also know that our husbands are not going to sit there and talk to us about how they are feeling or allow themselves to dwell -- I think most guys want to just get on w/ it and get over it. That's the difference between men & women.
One thing that I hate is that just simple, every day things that happen can remind me of a certain thing H said or did or a certain sitch inside the sitch & it all comes crashing back.
The thing that I am working actively on (and I don't know if you also know that my H is deployed so I'm kind of doing this one-sided), but I get Gary Chapman's emails every day. Each week, he talks about a different topic.
One week, it really hit me hard and, as much as it sucks at times, I am constantly trying to actively keep this in mind: (1) unfortunately marriages don't just toodle along all happy, happy for the most part. They do take work, constant work -- I guess as far as my sitch and probably most other's, we didn't realize this or we didn't put in the work it took and that's how we got to where we were. We need to remind ourselves daily that our marriage is truly the most important thing in our lives (at least that's my opinion). Our spouse is our one constant. We need to always be feeding & taking care of our marriage or it will die.
(2) Truly (and I won't get into religion here), but we as wives are supposed to really be the ones that take care of our husbands and children. Yeah, is it fair, necessarily? Sometimes I think not, but this is what our "role" is. And here's the catch: if we continually take care of our husbands the way we should be, we can *hope* that not only will the feelings, taking care of, etc. be reciprocated, but we won't have a breakdown in our marriage. It will become second nature and maybe one day won't always seem so much like "work," you know?
One more thing to add that I thought about is that the pain WE felt is totally different than anything our spouses will ever understand.
I do validate my H's feelings in the fact that he obviously felt hurt, anger, etc. which was what led him to wanting a D in the first place and I make sure I remember that he had his pain as well, but I cannot imagine it even comes close to mirroring what we went through.
I went back and read some of your early posts and I'm not sure what pain you are speaking of, the pain of the affairs, or the pain of your husband wanting a divorce?
My first wife had an affair with a co-worker and then shortly after all that ended, she filed for divorce. So I know what those pains feel like. My current situation with 2nd wife(which is improving
) kind of mirrors your situation..kids early on, very difficult pregnancies etc.. Believe me, I have sympathy for you, my wife, and any other woman that has to go through that. But let me give you a little perspective from the man's point of view.. I don't know if your husband is like me but I need physical touch, physical intimacy to feel loved. You can buy things for me, do things for me, tell me how much you love me, and while that is all well and good, without physical intimacy, I WILL NOT feel loved....period !
I liken the pain felt from an affair as being similar to the death of a loved one. It's a deep hurtful pain but as each day passes the pain lessens. Personally, I don't feel it ever truly goes away because I still feel pain from my first wife's affair even though I am now happily married to a wonderful woman and have 2 lovely little girls (
) My point is, I still feel that pain but it is less. Fast forward to being in a relationship that lacks the physical intimacy that I need, the pain felt might not be as severe, but it is a CONSTANT pain. It's a constant feeling of being alone even when with the woman you love. Yes, I know she loves me just as I'm sure you love your husband, it's just very hard for me to FEEL it without the intimacy or feeling of neglect.
Just my 2 cents, and thanks again for the posts over in SSM forum
Hey -- don't mean to hijack Jen's thread, but I will respond to what H's pain was and that was exactly what you just described about the lack of physical intimacy, etc. in our marriage.
Yes, he was completely and totally wrong in having the A's (pleural I might add) and I do not place the BLAME on me at all in any way, however, HE felt validated in the A's in the fact that he was not getting what he needed at home and that was not just the physical intimacy, but the emotional connection as well.
Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think H was truly RIGHT in any of what he did. He truly could have gone about the whole sitch in a totally different way. Unfortunately, the A's began way back when our 7 yr old son was only about 18 months old. He was deployed, feeling neglected before he left, therefore cheated (supposedly no sex but WHATEVER at this point).
Anyway, I am just so very glad that I had my wake up call and it was in time to work things out and right now all I want is for him to get home (he's again deployed for a year) so we can get on w/ this wonderful, intimate marriage I now want and will work daily for.
I will also add that your W probably has no understanding of how much pain you truly are in daily by the lack of the physical/emotional intimacy. I'm glad things are getting better for you, but I hope that she truly understands what you have been and are going through as far as feeling rejected, lonely in your own home, etc., because I didn't get that until it was almost too late.
Hey -- don't mean to hijack Jen's thread, but I will respond to what H's pain was and that was exactly what you just described about the lack of physical intimacy, etc. in our marriage.
Yes, he was completely and totally wrong in having the A's (pleural I might add) and I do not place the BLAME on me at all in any way, however, HE felt validated in the A's in the fact that he was not getting what he needed at home and that was not just the physical intimacy, but the emotional connection as well.I don't like playing the blame game... I could blame our problems on my wife's lack of intimacy, and she could blame her lack of intimacy on something that I do or don't do and it could go on and on. The bottom line is, WE had / have a problem...how do we fix it ?
Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think H was truly RIGHT in any of what he did. He truly could have gone about the whole sitch in a totally different way. Unfortunately, the A's began way back when our 7 yr old son was only about 18 months old. He was deployed, feeling neglected before he left, therefore cheated (supposedly no sex but WHATEVER at this point). I agree, I don't condone what your husband did. I can see WHY he did because I've had those thoughts in the past, just never acted upon them. And if the truth be known, I'm sure your husband did not get what he was expecting out of the affairs. My guess is, he was expecting to fill the void left by the lack of intimacy in his R and from what I gather, affairs usually don't fill that void too well. My thinking was / is, "I don't want to be intimate with OW, I want to be intimate with the woman I love, nothing else is going to fill that void"
Anyway, I am just so very glad that I had my wake up call and it was in time to work things out and right now all I want is for him to get home (he's again deployed for a year) so we can get on w/ this wonderful, intimate marriage I now want and will work daily for. I will also add that your W probably has no understanding of how much pain you truly are in daily by the lack of the physical/emotional intimacy. I'm glad things are getting better for you, but I hope that she truly understands what you have been and are going through as far as feeling rejected, lonely in your own home, etc., because I didn't get that until it was almost too late.She seemed to be under the impression that it was just sex I was after. I don't know what made things finally click in her mind. I openly communicated with her how important it was to me, how much it hurt to continue to be rejected, it's not just about sex, it's the physical / emotional intimacy that comes with it.
I'm going to continue this over on my thread -- sorry Jen
Absolutely no problem at all on the hijack...
Been thinking too, been feeling low all day - a bit weepy, no motivation to do much more than slob out on the sofa, a huge desire to stuff chocolate right down my throat ... many women will recognise the symptoms ....
yep I think it may be hormones!!! I get the depo injection every 12 weeks, got my next one tomorrow. I have noticed I get a bit hormonal just before it ... hopefully that is what my low spot has been, or at least my hormones have exacerbated it.
But - I have my "fix" tomorrow morning so we'll see after that. I am SO GLAD I kept to the 48 hour rule and thought before speaking !
Hi Jen,
Coming in a bit late here, and I hope you're right that you'll be back on top of things tomorrow.
FWIW, I certainly understand the way you feel. After everything they put us through, it would be nice if they would at least ACKNOWLEDGE it all and grovel a bit, wouldn't it? H3ll, I have never even heard "I'm sorry". Just goes to show - this stuff doesn't just magically resolve itself into Happily Ever After - but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying, either!
it would be nice if they would at least ACKNOWLEDGE it all and grovel a bit, wouldn't it?
Oh yes it would be lovely!!!
But it isn't really the be all and end all - a happy present and future is the goal
(But your post made me laugh right out loud!!!! I love being so non-DB at times, kind of like being a mad teenager, stomping about shouting "I HATE YOU, YOU'VE RUINED MY WHOLE LIFE!!")
Can I join in? I TRULY THINK YOU ARE A REAL A$$ SOMETIMES AND WOULD LIKE TO PUNCH YOU RIGHT IN THE NOSE FOR WHAT YOU DID & SAID TO ME!
Speaking of hormones, here I go through this hysterectomy surgery just to find out that, no I'm not going to have periods anymore, but since he left my ovaries I still PMS! How weird is that?!
but since he left my ovaries I still PMS
but it will probably prevent you from getting osteoporosis and risking getting easy fractures so be glad of the PMS it's presence might save your life one day as people, particularly women, die from hip fractures.
Jeeze without the periods how would I know to use it as an excuse for my behaviour?
saffie
Just read something which made me shout out YES!!!
"Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions."
quote from the Dalai Lama
Happy Birthday to you.
Happy Birthday to you.
Happy Birthday dear Jen.
Happy Birthday to yooooouuuu!
Hope you are enjoying your day darling.
Hey Scott - thank you for the b'day wishes - I had a lovely day!
Onto an update on my sitch - all is still good.
I should have said I gave H a mini bomb in November. I didn't do it out of spite, but I really couldn't see a way through. I didn't say I would leave him, in fact I said I DIDN'T want to, but I said I felt that I was still taking the lion's share of the house admin/work, orgainsing our time/finances etc etc. For example, it's me who opens the post and files it, me who does the food shopping (I have a car, H can't drive so it makes sense), me who tells H when we need to save more money, and it's often me who decides where we go/what we do with our free time.
I was not happy with this, to me it means I'm still in control and I would prefer a partnership. I felt if we carried on like this H would end up in his "I feel controlled" mode (even though he contributed to that by never speaking up and stating what he wanted).
So on Nov 13th/14th I said I'd had enough. The house needs some tlc, there is a wall in the garden where the render has come off and it's ugly concrete blocks, I had been saying "what shall we do about the wall" and no real answer .... so I stopped nagging cos that's a cheeseless tunnel. But - no nagging = H happy, nothing gets done. Not an ideal solution either. So I asked H "what do I need to do? I don't want to nag and you don't like it when I nag, but if I don't nothing gets done. So what is the answer?".
H stated he would make more of an effort, not just with the house but with putting me "first" sometimes (at times I feel I come a poor second after work, the gym, his need to stop for a quick pint on the way home). I don't need to be "first" all of the time, I understand life does get in the way, but as long as I see me coming first sometimes that's fine. H also asked me to look out for the positives and focus on them.
So the deal was - his task was to make more of an effort, mine was to notice the positives and put less focus on the negative. I agreed with this readliy.
So we'd had the talk, and I'd stated what i wanted. Then on Weds night H tells me he has a NY resolution - he wants us to decorate the living room AND he is going to look into sorting out the wall, cos he's fed up with looking at it. H said in the new year we should sit down together and come up with ideas on how we want the living room to look, then really put the time in to create that. H also said he was going to speak to a few builders about the wall. he said he'd like us to do most of the work ourselves as it's more satisfying, but realised some building jobs are best left to the professionals.
Me? I could feel my jaw wanting to hit the floor. I'd been 180'd!!!!!!! Of course I was SO PLEASED!!! I had got what I wanted. Now I will see if he makes good on this, but my gut feeling says yes he will. it's just so refershing that HE took the lead on this. He even said he'd "let things slide" in the summer but now he wanted to get stuck in (with the house stuff I mean).
Contrast this with MLC H in 2005/6 - didn't want to do anything, life was "too regimented", he never had fun anymore, everything was all too much and he just wanted to forget all his responsibilities and go out and enjoy himself. He's gorwing up, realising that there has to be a balance. Yes we can have fun but if it means racking up loads of credit card debt then we have to think of alternative ways to enjoy ourselves. Yes it's nice to go out but if the house is a tip and we don't like living in a tip then if we both put in a couple of hours we can get it tidy enough (just enough, not pristine) and then go out and have fun.
The alien which invaded my H has gone. I can now see the H I always wanted. It took a HECK of a lot of patience to get here though. I hope it stays.
Good read.
Happy Holiday.
Jen--
Will comment more later, but I wanted to make sure I dropped by and 1) thanked you for your comments on my thread and 2) wished you a merry christmas.
Congrats!
SD
Hey Jen - Merry Christmas!!!
Sounds like you are off to a great start for 08.
Jen, What a great way to start the new year. I've been thinking about sitting down with W to make some resolutions, to help us keep focused and on track. (Not exactly The Great Recommittal that I always wanted and never got - but a nice baby step in that direction, eh?)
So, remember, H is likely to backslide a little on his 180 - we all do, right? But his heart is in the right place, and that's the most important thing! Now, I think you don't have to completely sit back and wait for him to follow through. I would say your challenge is to find the right balance of gently encouraging and validating his desire to improve, but not going so far as to "nag" about them. I suspect he might even welcome just a little well-meaning nudging to keep him on track and motivated.
Have an amazing new year - you're a great lady and you have earned it!
Haven't updated in a while ... life is good. I like my life. I like myself. I even like my job!
But H ... I'm not so sure anymore. I've been thinking about this for some time and I believe I have been giving him chances but I'm not sure anymore.
I asked him to step up to the mark and take on more of the household, diurnal stuff. But I still feel like I have a child.
I asked for him to tell me I looked nice at least twice a week. I get a token effort, then nothing.
Hi LD is still there. We ML about a week ago but then he pointed out he always rises to the occasion when he needs a pee, so wasn't it convenient? I feel so ugly.
I don't know what to do. Nagging doesn't work and it's not something I enjoy. Asking calmly doesn't work.
I suppose I'm here as one last ditch. I don't want to get a D but I really miss being important, attractive, loved. I see so many people here who truly love their spouses and it's touching to see the care and effort they will put in. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall at home.
I see I have two choices. Limp on in this M where we are really nothing more than friends or get a D. Neither of them appeal to me. I don't expect hearts and flowers all the time, I realise that being M is not Hollywood. I just don't know what I can do to bring more passion, love and excitement back. I suggested we go out tonight, just to chat and catch up, to reconnect, but it's now gone 10 and he's still at work.
Why do i bother?
I see I have two choices. Limp on in this M where we are really nothing more than friends or get a D.
((((jenjam)))))
Is there something in between that might just work? Something different that would emphasize the seriousness to your H, and might shock him into improving?
Have you read Michele's other book, The Sex Starved Marriage? Maybe there are some things in there that might help you think through this issue.
A question...how are you on the GAL stuff? Because that's a place where I've faltered...and I know that when I am really working on GAL, not only is my PMA higher, but I am more attractive to my H. He is all hot and bothered lately because I have started painting on the weekends...even though I am really no artist. But it makes me happy, and I love giving myself permission to just suck at it. My art has gotten a lot better since I stopped trying, lol.
Refocusing on those hobbies has another upside as well: it puts your attention on you and what you're doing instead of on H and what he's NOT doing. Since I've been working on detaching, since I've re-engaged in GAL/PMA activities more, and since I've given him my boundaries, it's gotten better. Perhaps you could draft a similar list? In writing, what you want and what you're willing to do as well.
I'm sorry you're in this place. I swear, your H and my H ARE twins. Maybe you and I should just go find some hot cabana boys to ride like ponies and maintain a M and friendship with our H's. What do you think? *grin*
BTW, how are you making yourself happy these days?
SD
Julie, Nic and SD (and someone else who emailed me ... you know who you are and thank you)
thank you! I was half expecting a "hey you're lucky, your H is home". And I am. But the probs we had before he left, me wanting more intimacy .. still there.
We are going out in a mo so shall see what H does. Talking doesn't seem to work, so will try action. Trouble is, as long as I am happy and smiling H thinks "oh, Jen's OK, I don't have to make any effort" ARGH!!!!
SD - GAL, yes I have dropped that off a bit. We have guinea pigs, one of them at the moment is a bit poorly, so most of my GAL consists of force feeding her and cleaning her bottom! We've lost 3 since Nov 30th too, so most of my attention has been on them. Not the most attractive of GAL. I think I may try the list in writing though. I've not written H a letter for a bit, good idea to try. So Nic, you're right, the talking isn't working, time to stop that cheeseless tunnel. Trouble is, not sure which tunnel to try next. Will carry on thinking.
How am I making myself happy? Not sure, being appreciative of who I am, realising that my low self esteem is gone, that yes I make mistakes and can't be perfect, losing 21lbs (although I have had a few run-ins with lager and chocolate this week) and mainly guinea pigs. Set up a new, much larger, home made cage for them, done a lot more research on them, got them a lot of toys etc (and mostly from pound shops (dollar stores in the US), having pets doesn't have to be expensive.) We lost 3 but we have 3 new ones from a rescue, 4 girls in total.
If all that fails - I have no idea what a cabana boy is but I DO like the idea of riding one like a pony!!!
Hi Jen Jam
I have no words of wisdomwbut wanted to stop by and say hello. there is a very important person in my life who values you a great deal
and
so
hi!!!!
Hi Jen,
I'm sorry to hear you feeling down these days. ((((Jen)))) I've been reading the SSM book myself, so I'll give you some of my reactions to it. (And now MWD has the new book that's geared specifically for cases where the wife is HD and the husband is LD - haven't read it, but maybe you should!
)
My first reaction to SSM was, SOOO much of it sounds familiar! MWD has her set of tools (which I think are good tools) and a lot of this book is about applying them in different (but related to DBing) ways, to fix a different (but related to DBing) problem.
For example, the whole "if this cheeseless tunnel isn't working, try something else" discussion - from your last post, I see you still remember this, so put your thinking cap on! One suggestion, as the HD spouse, you may find that you have to assume more of the "work" of pursuing intimacy than you think is "fair". If that's the case, try to shake that mindset off - it's not about who gets things going, it's about doing what you need to in order to have the intimacy that you want.
And SD is right, start with yourself (just like in the Good Ol' Days, right?) I am sorry to hear about the guinea pigs - I'm an animal person myself, and my family has always had many pets - but I have to wonder if that's part of your trouble. Don't let your world revolve too much around the pets and the H who works half the night - get out and have some fun with other people!
Finally, try not to take H's inconsiderate "up to pee" remark personally. It was stupid, but I'll bet it was just thoughtless, rather than intended to be hurtful. You ARE a beautiful person, inside and out. But remember - just like PMA and happiness, your beauty is something that YOU control and make happen, not anyone else. When you know that and believe it in your heart, your beauty will shine from you so everyone can see it, everywhere you go. Never doubt that!
Hope to hear more good stuff from you soon!