STILL Morphing 5

[debcb]

I see my thread locked, so guess I'll start a new one. I don't seem to get much time to post anymore, but I don't know what I'd do with out the support and input of all of you here, and heaven knows how badly I need it, so, anyway, here's to more morphing.

Link to my old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=860740&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1

at least I think that will work!

[psluke]

Hi Deb,

# 1

[psluke]

Your link works fine.

[debcb]

Hi Pam! good morning to you! It's nice to hear from you! i'll try to get over to your place today. I do lurk on your thread (and several others) with out saying much, because I don't have much to add, but obviously I would be a better pal to say "hi", huh?

[psluke]

Hi Deb,

I mostly lurk now days as well, don't really feel I have anything to add, but I wanted to say, Hi.

Sometimes I think I should leave or move to Surviving but here is where everyone knows me and knew D when he posted.

[debcb]

MollieW, Hopeful Scared, and Padawan, thank you all for your posts on my last thread. they are helpful, important reminders to me, and you are all so right. I know a big part of the work ahead of me now is to manage to somehow give H the benefit of the doubt. That is a HUGE challenge for me, because frankly I did just that before, time after time, and he was being deceitful and dishonest...it's really difficult to get over that...hard, hard work to do!

[debcb]

Frankly Pam, it wouldnt be the same with out you being HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[psluke]

That is a HUGE challenge for me, because frankly I did just that before, time after time, and he was being deceitful and dishonest...it's really difficult to get over that...hard, hard work to do!

But in the big picture, if you want to chose to give it a try then you know you will be alright either way it works out.

I think that is the thing realizing it is a choice and it is your choice and having the knowledge that you will be ok either way it goes.

I was hurting the other day over my trusting D on some things and knowing he must have been lying to my face. But, it was my choice to trust him and try and it was his choice to lie and go away. That doesn't make my choice wrong, because it is how I want me to be. Does that make any sense or help at all?

[debcb]

I guess I'll post/journal about the weekend & up through today. Some different/interesting things happened, and I'm not quite sure what to think of them. I keep mulling them over in my mind, wondering if H is trying to tell me something, or if I'm reading to much into the "happenings" because of my "wishfulness". They are SO unusual though (at least one part) that I don't believe they can be coincidence. In fact they can't be coincedence, which means they have to have been purposful acts by H, which means he must be trying to tell me something he can't say???? geez, I can even get myself confused.

the last thing I posted about on my last thread was when I accused H of not going to annual meeting at work so he could be w/ow, he kept yelling at me that it was over, then he actually came to the kitchen and held and kissed me and apologized for being so angry, and comforted me when I said it was still a struggle for me....this in itself is a first, VERY new and unusual behavior on his part.

OK, backwards to last Thursday nite...H slept in just his "whitey tighties"...he usually wears a t-shirt and shorts. I like it when he sleeps with his shirt off so I can snuggle up to him. No big deal, I know, just nice. no sex that night, just some nice warm snuggles. I've told him often how nice it is when he does that
Friday afternoon, H initiated ml.....it's nice to be home alone on Friday afternoons!
Now here comes the really different part. On Friday evening, H worked out some, I was in the living room cleaning and rearranging when he came in from his workout and doing the chores. I had the big stereo going... H brought in his CD case, said "I want to see how some things sound on this one for just a minute before I go mow the yard"...then started to play his CD's ....some he seemed to just pick randomly. Then, he began to pick them out, saying "there's something here I want to listen to"...and go through to certain songs. (I'd dropped what I was doing and sat down to join him in listening)...ok, here's the "odd"????part....the songs he picked out were love songs. Really love songs. and I know he picked them on purpose, because we'd been listening to Dire Straits and talking about some of the intricacies of the music and lyrics in their songs. so I KNOW he knew exactly what the lyrics were. and he CHOSE these songs. The titles stuck in my mind like neon signs, so H sure sent a message. I guess my hope is it was an intentional one. Actually they are some of my favorite songs, and the lyrics REALLY stood out to me, I think they had to to H...they were "Stand By Me" by John Lennon, and "Woman" by John Lennon, as I recall he played that one more than once, and "Miracles" by Jefferson Starship, and then the last one he put on was "Count on Me" by Jefferson Starship (yes, I know, we are terribly dated by this) That was the last one he played, and I was actually starting to get a little teary eyed. The dog started whining to go out when it came on, and I told it "just a minute"...then something else weird happened, H got up without a word and took the dog out. H NEVER takes the dog out. it was almost like he wanted me to hear that song. When they came back in I told him thanks and he said "I couldnt stand the whining"(???dog wasnt whining any more than he always does, and H doesnt take him out then!)...The words to that song seemed like such a message:
Precious love
I’ll give it to you
Blue as the sky and deep in the
Eyes of a love so true
Beautiful face
You make me feel
Lite on the stairs and lost in the
Air of a love so real

And you can count on me girl
You can count on my love woman
You can count on me baby
You can count on my love to see you through

Emerald eyes and china perfume
Caught in the wheel and lost in
The feel of a love so soon
Ruby lips
You make my song
Into the night and saved by the lite
Of a love so strong
See you thru
You can count on me girl
You can count on my love

I dunno, the words to "woman" stick in my mind also:
Woman I can hardly express
My mixed emotions at my thoughtlessness
After all I'm forever in your debt
And woman I will try to express
My inner feelings and thankfulness
For showing me the meaning of success

Woman I know you understand
The little child inside of the man
Please remember my life is in your hands
And woman hold me close to your heart
However distant don't keep us apart
After all it is written in the stars

Woman please let me explain
I never meant to cause you sorrow or pain
So let me tell you again and again and again

I love you, yeah, yeah
Now and forever
I love you, yeah, yeah
Now and forever
I love you, yeah, yeah
Now and forever
I love you, yeah, yeah

I won't do the words to the others, I almost get teary eyed. H never did mow the lawn that evening. I mentioned several times how much I enjoyed the evening listening to music with him, and he said that he had too.

He took his shirt off again that night at bedtime, I told him how nice it was/is, and he said "that's why I'm doing it"

Saturday, he went to do his "paperwork" in the morning that always makes me nuts. When he came in the door, he came to me and gave me a nice, long, passionate kiss. Stopped, and then did it again. he did mow that day, got his rider going instead of pushing.

Sunday AM H initiated again, sometime in the afternoon, I gave him a passionate kiss in passing, told him "I love your kisses", and he said "I love your's too" and kissed me again....
He also commented sometime that afternoon about getting a Harley and a 'Vette! Gosh, sound familiar, as is MLC? it would take a huge miracle for us to afford either of those. However, I know better than to argue now, I just said, "sounds like fun, but if you go to Sturgis, I'm going too! and H said I'd be the oldest woman he ever knew that rode to Sturgis...I just laughed and told him I'd also be the most fun!...

Yesterday, Monday, S told me unsolicited that he had seen his Dad come from the direction of his office (not ow's house) when he came home on Saturday, and that he has seen this several times in the last 1 - 2 months (darn kids, you don't ask them stuff, so they dont tell ya). I'd quit paying any attention, but this is good news!

Also, last night H wrote out the phone bill, it is actually dropping at tiny bit back towards "normal". and in all fairness, I've been known to call D and talk for an hour, so that could be part of it.

Today was the hated staff meeting. H sat with his back to me, (I got there almost late), and ow was kind of in front and to the side. I think she was making obscene gestures to me, I did look right at her quite a bit. topic was sexual harrassement, the speaker was from the state agency that handles such complaints. he talked about consensual sexual relationships in the workplace, and that judges recognize that anger when a relationship ends can be underneath some of the complaints that are filed. speaker made the comment that some people were "doing that (having a sexual relationship with a coworker) who shouldnt be (just a general comment based on what his office handles). I couldnt help but think "yeah, duh, H, are you listening"...at the end of the meeting, I was almost first out the door, walking talking and joking with a male coworker who was commenting that staff meetings rank right up there with having bamboo shoots put under his toenails...H was out of his seat and out the door like a shot, actually came out the door immediately behind me and talked to me a little...where ow could see , god forbid. I noticed her leaving the building some time later, as I was going into the building where my office is she was crossing the street from where the meeting had been, almost as if she had hung back. I mean, she was only one table away, so she had to have hung back.

So, that's my novel. I can't help but believe that H selected those songs to try to tell me something. I could be reading too much into it, but I don't think so.

Lord knows how much I wish it was really and truly OVER between them and my H was truly back with me. MAYBE that is what he's trying to say in the only way he can.

[debcb]

. But, it was my choice to trust him and try and it was his choice to lie and go away. That doesn't make my choice wrong, because it is how I want me to be. Does that make any sense or help at all?

Yes it does, Pam, and it helps alot! thank you!

[psluke]

Hi Deb,

Glad it helps and you are most welcome.

I think it is a good possibility your H was trying to tell you something. I mean can you imagine having to try to sit down and have that conversation if you were in the WAS shoes? Easier for them to look for more indirect ways to get the message across. Just my guess.

[kml]

"Woman" by John Lennon, as I recall he played that one more than once,

Let me just say here, that a guy who WASN'T turning back to his wife would have shut that song off in a HEARTBEAT!!!

Ellie

[debcb]

a guy who WASN'T turning back to his wife would have shut that song off in a HEARTBEAT!!!

well, Ellie, you put my meandering thoughts into concise words! Lord knows, I've heard him take songs off in a heartbeat before...especially the one by Bob Seger that goes "trying to live my live without you babe, is the hardest thing I'll ever do"...way back last spring in the midst of one of their "breakups"...H flat out said "I don't like that one" and hit the remote. Guess I shouldnt have danced to it, huh

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I think H was trying to tell me something. it's also dawned on me that some of the phrases in the songs have come out in things he's said before...

Besides, H is a Master of the Mind Game...he would be acutely aware of messages he's sending. hmmmm, I don't think it was an accident.

[debcb]

i'm a little anxious...Friday AM I have to have surgery for this sinus infection that I've had for months, maybe even years. I had a ct scan last week, and it turns out part of what they've thought was an infection on xrays is a tumor or cyst that shows up on a ct scan I had done in ----get this----1993. I am rather irritated that the specialist who ordered the ct scan back then didnt follow up on it. I never heard one single word. I remember wondering about it, but I figured if they didnt call you, results were normal. I should have followed up, but S was a baby and I was busy so dismissed it. sheesh. That specialist no longer practices here, I wonder why? Current specialist believes it is not malignant as there is not evidence of bone erosion on the current ct scan, but it still makes me a little anxious. However, I vary between thinking i am one tough cookie to have lived with this for so long, and being irritated that it didnt get taken care of sooner, and looking forward to not having the constant head aches and ear aches and even tooth aches on that side of my head, and then worrying about "how bad will it hurt"

Hmmmm, Ellie, what is your take on it, is this a real painful thing post op? it's a "bilateral nasal endoscopy w/sinus surgery as indicated & possible septoplasty". It's anticipated to only take an hour.

maybe I'll really be hot if I can get rid of this constant darn infection.

[totallyconfused]

Hi Deb,
I think you said it very well in what I pulled from your last post (directly below):

I gotta keep my mouth shut and keep focusing on positives, drawing him to me...

I have been trying to keep up with your sitch and personally (I think) there are many positives going for you right now. I think that you need to drop any conversation/insinuations, etc.. about ow or your H betraying you. From different things you have relayed here, it is sounding like he is trying hard (as hard as he is able to right now) to get back to where he should be. It will take time. Things will definitely "pop up" that might make you "wonder". It doesn't matter .. you have to keep looking at the whole picture and knowing that it is gradually getting better.

While doing that .. you need to continue "morphing". Continue working on you! Keep doing "something different" .. that may catch your H off-guard. (Of course you'll make sure the "something different" will be good things!)

Keep On Keeping On, Deb. I really think you are getting there.

Take care,
TC

[41dk]

Hi Deb-

I have been out of town this past weekend and then I lost you! I hope this finds you feeling better physically and emotionally. I hope you got all the TLC that you deserve! Please update us on your surgery when you can.

I, too, thought it was very touching that H played those songs for you. It was probably all the things he wanted to say but didn't think that he could say it as well himself. And I do think that he wanted you to stay put when he let the dog out. All good things here Deb.

Try your best not to over-analyze and just go with the flow and enjoy life as best you can.

I am proud of the way that you handled the close encounter with ow. She was probaly so blown away by your proud stance that she nervously (and without thinking) gave you that "hi".

But our first concern will be your health. Please let us know how you are feeling....

Dawn

[debcb]

Hi all...Pam and TC and Dawn and Padawan and all of you for your support and {hugs} and prayers. It helped more than you all will ever know to know you were thinking of me. and I thought of that many times, I swear I could FEEL your prayers. I am so humbled by and grateful for your support.

Actually the surgery went quite well, what the Dr. thought was tumor(s) were actually some polyps. He drained those and the rest of my sinuses, and so hopefully these ugly chronic sinus infections and related headaches will be a thing of the past. I've been surprised, actually the pain post-op is less than what I've gotten used to with the headaches. I have been incredibly tired, though, which caught me off guard. I didnt expect this, I mean it was just a day surgery, for heavens sake, but the Dr. says it's from blood loss (sorry to be gross) and to be expected to last about 2 weeks and actually I'm doing fine.

Emotionally, I'm kinda weird, I'm sure it's related to being so tired, but some of it I'm sure comes from my sitch. Which, if I were able to be more objective about, I think is probably, maybe, actually doing some better.

last weekend was very stressful for H, he had to take D on a 2 hour drive to pick up a car the night before my surgery, and then the day of and day after were kinda draining for him. At points he felt kind of distant to me, probably partly because he was, and because I would have latched on tight given a chance.

I've been working hard to keep a grip on myself, not pushing or demanding of H, but warm and pleasant and inviting even though I've had some hugely anxious moments. I've chewed the end off of my tongue to avoid making any mention of ow, altough in my anxiety I've come so very very close to asking him if things were back "on" between them. What I see is that his distant times are terrifingly like the "just before the bomb" days, and they still have the power to elicit terror in me. Hard to deal with.

OK, so to explain some of these ramblings. The evening of my surgery, H left for about 2 1/2 hours to go to a co-workers going away party. I never saw any notice of this party or invitation to it, it would not be unusual for it to have been circulated just in their department, but that still raised my anxiety a notch. H did mention it several weeks before my surgery was even scheduled; when the surgery was scheduled, I told him I'd be fine, to go ahead and go......so, he did . I actually was fine, mostly asleep that whole day, and I could have dialed 911 had I needed. H came home about an hour earlier than I expected him, and wanted to know if I was ok, said he'd had his cell on but never got any calls. Maybe part of his distance was guilt, I don't know, but I havent thrown it up to him, I see it in part as an opportunity to out-GAL ow (she's the one who cant' mow her own yard, etc....). Of course, I agonized and had a hard time not saying anything, worrying about if ow was at the party. Weirdly, H wanted to ML that night. Worked for me, but just struck me as odd.

Saturday morning, H went to work (?) as always, made the comment that he wouldnt if it wasnt the end of the month ??????; however I do know there's a lot more paper work to be turned in then. I commented about him not wearing his ring (he hasnt worn it for 2 weeks now, which sets my anxiety level at about a fever pitch) and he said he couldnt because his finger is still swollen and sore, and he'd shown me that (true) and that the fact that he wasnt wearing it didnt mean there was anything going on or wrong between us (????????? maybe not but it sure did before????). I told him I could get it stretched, and he said then his finger would go down and it fit. I said I wasnt going to bug him about it, and havent said a word since. It has occured to me that h has gained a little weight in the last year (maybe that means the A is over/ending?) and his ring probably is tight. In fact he commented once in the last few months that he wanted to lose enough weight to have it fit again rather than having it stretched. So, maybe...but regardless, I have to let go of it. I cant control it, so why bother with it?

Sunday, I felt well enough to plant a few flowers in pots while H walked. It was nice to get some fresh air, and he always comes up and hugs me anymore when I'm out planting flowers. Have no clue what that's all about. Sunday night H initiated ML again....???...

Monday I stayed home from work, Monday evening H did invite me to walk with him, but I declined, because I just didnt feel strong enough to keep up with him for 3 miles. I did tell him thanks for the invite, and that i'm looking forward to going with him next week.

Tuesday I stayed home again, feeling really pooped. H seemed "distant" in some odd, intangible way, perhaps due to my own weirdness. I broke down and asked him as he was leaving if he was irritated at me for some reason, and he seemed surprised and asked why, I told him it just seemed that way...managed to not say anything about ow or my fears and anxieties. H said he was sorry, he wasnt irritated, he was just rushed and trying to focus on getting out the door.

I just read some of Sage's thread, and i had to laugh, because she identified what I think must be the same feelings and anxieties. It helps so much to know I'm not the only one with them.

I felt pretty down and anxious all day Tuesday, frankly I stewed and fretted (that's the day he's here w/ow)then about 6 pm I found a message on the answering machine that made me cry...he had called about 5:30, evidently I was out feeding critters or sticking flowers in their pots. I have the message memorized, although it wasnt all that big a deal to the "untrained ear". H simply said "Hi, it's just me, I was just calling to see how you are doing today Deb. I'm waiting for my client to get here and thought I could talk for a minute if I caught you. well, I guess I'll see you later tonight" (he gets home about 9 on Tuesdays) I actually leaned against the door frame and cried and thanked God when I got that message. For some reason it meant/means so much to me. When h got home, I told him thanks for the message and that I was really sorry I'd missed his call...he said "you should have answered". I still don't know what that meant????

Sometime Tuesday evening after he got home, and/or Wednesday morning, he started complaining about the medical staff here at work...why do we even have them if they can't do such and such and help us, and do you know what happened to (another clinical staff member) because of what they didnt do...just real irritated towards the med staff. It was interesting to me that the staff member he was standing up for is a young single mom that he's accused of "whoring around" on weekends. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what he's heard of her activities (at least she's SINGLE!) has to have come from ow...so it struck me as interesting that now he's taking this other gal's side.

Last night I took S to religion class, and H had to work later. I left him a note to not erase his answering maching message. I actually plan to tape it, his voice is just so sweet in it. It's a real keepsake to me. now is that adolescent or what? We were both really pooped last night, but a bedtime H surprised me by intiating ML again, and he was very enthusiastic. I am still confused by why he seems to want sex so often. However, that's one flow I can go with, so i don't worry about it much, just ponder sometimes. He held me very sweetly and tenderly afterwards, which still strikes me as being night and day different from how he used to be.

Today is our 26th wedding anniversary. I'm just kinda blown away by that, for MANY reasons. I hadnt heard from him this morning and was feeling kinda down, then about 11 I got this email:

Hey you, I’ve only a second as my client’s out in the lobby. Man, one after the other again. I just wanted to wish you a happy anniversary. Thanks for 26 years!! Love you D--

It's only a few words but it meant so much, I got kinda teary eyed. It truely seems miraculous that we've ever gotten to this point, especially given the last 2 years. but maybe they needed to happen for us to be able to get here.

I've had several other "chatty" emails from him today. We will go out to eat to celebrate our A and Mday this weekend, with S12 in tow I imagine, but that's ok. Probably doesnt seem like much of a celebration to a lot of folks, but it feels pretty much like an almost-victory dinner to me.

So, here's volumn XIIIVII of my saga. guess I'll stop, although I have a little more to post.

I dunno, any suggestions for what to do next on my part????

WHY is he so into sex these days? I can only hope for good reasons!

Do you all think the phone message and todays email are good signs, or am I reading too much into them????? I want so much to be able to believe that the teeny tiny baby steps are about to turn into giant (well, at least big) strides.

[kml]

I have been incredibly tired, though, which caught me off guard. I didnt expect this, I mean it was just a day surgery, for heavens sake, but the Dr. says it's from blood loss (sorry to be gross) and to be expected to last about 2 weeks and actually I'm doing fine.

Try taking a good multivitamin (1 a day) an extra iron pill (2-3 times a day) and an extra B complex (like a "B50" or "B100") once a day for the next 2 - 4 weeks - that will help speed up the process of your body replacing those lost red blood cells (note- make sure to stop the extra iron after a month - too much is not good).

Ellie

[debcb]

Thanks Ellie, I will do that. I guess I knew blood loss could make a person pooped, but didnt realize how pooped and didn't really understand how much bleeding there is with sinus surgery.

I have to say, it is not on my "things to do again" list!

[41dk]

Hi Deb-

See I told you....real soon! LOL Just finished up some yard work and am taking a break before yet ANOTHER shower today....sigh.

I can see that H did try to tell me how unhappy he was.

Hmmmm....possible translation: H was trying to make YOU responsible for his personal happiness AND make you responsible for his consequential actions. We can not do either of these things for our spouses just as they can not do this for us. It creates a co-dependent atmosphere and hinders our GAL plans!

Be happy Deb. You are no longer walking a tight-rope. One mis-step is not going to destroy everything for you.

Again, I will point out that your h seems to be drawn to you when you are doing your own thing (not temperature-taking) ie, planting the flowers.

Talk to you later.

Dawn

[debcb]

Hi Dawn...you made it back long before I did! If you get done with all your yard work, I have some you are welcome to do! LOL!

This is going to sound like a really stupid question, I know, but does it look/sound to you like I'm no longer on the tight rope????? I guess I ask because I'm no longer sure what to believe, and I'm afraid that if I let my guard down, I will slip back into my "old" self, and down we will go again. Plus, I can't see things objectively from the inside.

I thought a lot last night about your comments about trust being such an issue for me, and it obviously is, huge. I guess one thing that makes it so big is that I chose H in part because I thought he would never be the cheating kind. I had been through being cheated on by a guy I was engaged to, and NEVER wanted to go through that again. So, here I am, twice bitten, four times shy, I guess.
And I don't know how to get past it.


I 've had a hard time last night and this morning over that dang ll bean womens clothing catalog. What if he is getting ow a gift from it? you see, her bday is 5/21, and H is going out of town to a workshop on 5/20. coincidence? I hope. Hard for me? oh yeah. big time.

I have no clue how to reassure myself, and it seems like since my surgery, H is kind of "backed off" after his sitting beside me and playing music, etc. I know better than to pursue, but it is still difficult.

I am feeling better this morning than I have in a long time, I think because I slept well last night for the 1st time in I don't know how long. not sure what made the difference, considering I was anxious about H last night already.

[41dk]

Hi Deb-

Sitting here waiting on some rain....it will give me an excuse not to work outside! LOL (You'd think I would have this gorgeous lawn/yard, now would't you? Think again!)

I know, but does it look/sound to you like I'm no longer on the tight rope?

I know this may sound like I am playing head-games with you and I apologize if I made you THINK that you were walking a tight rope because, honestly, I don't think you ever were. You created (like all of us here) the tight rope. I think that you had more power and control over this situation (namely yourself) than you ever thought you did.

As far as sliding back into your old self, well, I am sure that there are MANY qualities of that OLD self that your h much admired and was attracted to. I know that personally I find a woman who can install her own dishwasher extremely attractive! LOL (And I am a hetero!)

But if by OLD self you mean some of your bad habits and routines that could have caused your h to feel left out, well, Deb I think that you have learned that particular lessen the hard way. BUT (big but) I honestly do not think that you pushed him to the ow. I think that you THINK that, I think that h would like to blame you for it, but I do not think that it's your responsibility.

Your h has to own up to that and deal with it. He has to deal with the fact that you have forgiven him. I think that accepting forgiveness in the face of what he has done is probably the hardest thing he will ever do. It will at times make him bitter, angry, resentful and you will feel all of that from time to time.

It all goes back to patience, patience, patience. (yuck, yuck, yuck, IMHO) What other choices do we have other than divorce?

As for the catalog, who knows right now? But I guarantee you that you will know in time....credit card statements come every month! I guess you just have to ask yourself, "is it really worth it to torture myself until I find out?".

And I don't know how to get past it

Ahh, I wish I had the answer for this one. Trust is a big issue for me also. We become so bonded to our spouses that we look on them as extensions of ourselves. We feel that their behavior(s) reflect on us. And it becomes a issue of pride when they screw up.

Have you thought about taking these questions and doubts to a counselor? Can you explain again the pitfalls (in your particular situation) of going to a counselor? I know there are some issues there for you but I think that if you could work around them, a C may be helpful.

I hope some others here can also give some input on the whole trust/duped scenario.

Take care Deb!

Dawn

[debcb]

gulp, the "what-ifs" are all over me this morning...fanned by the upcoming workshop & bd of ow and catalog H took to work and the email I just got from him asking me if I could get directions for him. plus the thought that he's probably having a great old time w/ow over in the other building.

This is what makes me feel like throwing in the towel...dealing with all this anxiety and uncertainty. Maybe it's not a snake. I have to keep telling myself that, I guess.

[41dk]

Deb-

Had to laugh at the image of me following you around your yard and smacking you up-side the head! .....But if it's what you need....then sure, I'll do it. Send a plane!

I like that you are thinking more about things being your h's responsibility. He has to OWN it before he can come to terms with it. Can you improve as a partner? Sure! We all can. Continue working on yourself in terms of what makes Deb a better person not in terms of what will solve all her husband's problems. Lead by example.

You are right, I truly do not think that your h had any intention of leaving. I think he just wanted to spread his misery around for all to share! I think he knows what a great thing he has at home. I think he knows that you are a special person and that he could never, never find another like you.

Thanks for telling me about the C situation. I thought this was the case but wasn't sure. I do think that the 60 mile trip would be worth the trouble. Maybe just go every two weeks?

As far as the credit card, ugh, I have to be honest and tell you that if I did not get a pair of LL bean boots, steaming the damn thing is exactly what I would do! (lol...actually, I would open it right in front of him!) But still, that would not solve anything, would it? Could be a gift for his mom or a gift for you for later on. Better probably to wipe it out of your mind and stop looking at what he is carrying into the office!

"what if she's making a fool of me, here i am all cheerful and happy and she's still carrying on w/H, pulling him away with all of her crap????

You are cheerful and happy because that is how you choose to live. SHE has made a fool of herself. Anyone can see that.

Hope you are feeling better-

Dawn

[debcb]

Hi Dawn, I am feeling better, in large part thanks to you. I tell you what, If I could send a plane and have you come follow me around for as-needed whackings for a couple of weeks, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

i dunno, I guess a person has to reach a certain point before things start to sink in, but in thinking back on our R, I've always been puzzled at H's A...I mean, to this day, every once in a while I speak to some of his previous clients and they will say how he always spoke so highly of me. It always puzzled me and brought me to tears, because I could never figure what I did to change all that (ok, gaining a lot weight didnt help either of us, but still) and why he turned so cold and distant for a while. But in looking at it from this different perspective, and from what I've read about mlc being a time of "life review" and examination, then it makes sense. I have to lean towards thinking that's it, because it is the ONLY thing that makes any sense. I mean, we've had our share of challenges over 27 years and 2 kids, but considering what some people go through, we have had a pretty smooth ride. and H has to see that and know that as well, he sees even more of peoples difficulties than I do.

This helps me a lot to see the importance of GAL, even more so.

I also makes me really po'd, I mean REALLY, at the ow again. the trollup (or troll????) went after someone who was as caught up and lost in their personal angst as any woe begone teenager. what a b---h. It may be a cold day in hell before I ever stop looking down my nose at her at this rate.

anyway, I'm finding myself oddly becoming more and more focused on GAL...but still committed to being more "there" with H, and making our M a priority (I didnt put it as highly as I should have) I'm still thinking on my personal goals, but I am determined to move forward with more of them. I would love to get my weight down to where it should be and truely get into shape, to ride a bike to work some and go bike camping with S (and H if he would ) to hike more in the mountains this summer (we don't go till mid august this year, so if I get moving, I can probably make progress), to screen in the back porch (H can help if he wants, if not, I'll do it myself, said the little red hen) and about 50 jillion other things. In fact, I just saw an ad in the paper where they are selling family memberships for a recreational park near here where we used to canoe and camp w/D when she was little. Then it kind of went to the dogs, then was bought by a group home for troubled youths, now I guess has been bought again. It would be so cool, it has campsites and a lake and pool and club house and golfing and tennis courts. If I got my own membership, S and I could ride our bikes to there with tents (it's only about 5 miles from our house) and we could do parties there for S and every thing. I just gotta scrape up a couple hundred bucks to join...and of course H could come or not, but we would have a great time. hmmmmmmmm

I feel better today physically than I have for a long time. I am almost afraid to hope that this could be something permanent, but boy do I wish. It's probably partly due to sleeping well last night for one of the 1st times in a long time...no sex, but the sleep was good !

oh, about steaming open the envelope with the credit card statement. It works. I did it not to long ago, I cant remember what I was fired up about, but I'd seen it on I Love Lucy as a kid (yes, sigh, a jillion years ago) and recalled it in a moment of stress, and by golly! Lucy was right!

[41dk]

Deb-

I'll do it on one condition....I get to smack your h a few times too! Oh what fun!

So glad that you are feeling better. If I did something to help you on your way, then that makes me even happier!

I blamed myself in the beginning too. I took everything on my shoulders. When I got past the panic mode and started to think about it, I realized how self-centered that really was. I mean, did I truly think that I had the power to initiate my h's crisis? Wasn't he his own person with his own thoughts and feelings? He did have a life before me? Sure, it was a short 17 years but a lot can happen during that time.

All that considered, I felt relieved not being responsible for his actions but at the same time it makes me thankful that this happened. It caused me to really look at myself and start to make some changes in ME....things that I always wanted to work on to make ME a whole person outside my M.

I still have a long way to go and I still catch myself being co-dependent. But I am determined to make my 40's a hell of a lot better than my 30's!

went after someone who was as caught up and lost in their personal angst as any woe begone teenager. what a b---h.

That says it all for many people on this bb. It really tells you what kind of person this is...parasitic B#tch!

Stay strong Deb!

Thanks for the tip on steaming! I WILL use it if I want to! LOL (I have always opened all mail no matter who's name is on it....never even thought that I was stepping on toes here...will have to think about that one.)

I really do like your GAL plans, especially about the bikes and your s. It will keep you off the rural roads! I am glad that you see the importance of being an individual in your marriage and how GAl can help you do that. Have fun with it!

Dawn (Happy to hear that you are feeling better physically too....always helps!)

[debcb]

Hi Dawn!!!! Actually, you can smack H several times!!!!!!

S and I drove out at looked at the little recreational park last night, S was excited. I didnt realize the poor child has never been there. It would be a fun place to take him some this summer, and it is exactly 5 miles from our house, actually on the same road that we live on, I was thinking it was on a different one, but it isnt. I havent broached the Subject of getting a membership with H yet (timing is everything, as I've learned here!!!!) but i will

this morning I was talking about biking, and H mentioned that it isnt good for men...I did read something about that in the paper, but sheesh....I didnt say much, just agreed that I had heard/read some info to that effect. Talk about being hit by middle-age though, not so long ago H was absolutely convinced he was indestructible. All of him, if you get my gist. I wish he would go biking w/S and I but then we havent even started yet, so again, timing, timing, timing.

Also this morning h was asking if I could get directions to the location of his workshop next friday, I told him I could, but I thought he should just stay home with me...he said he couldnt because he needs the hours. Then...H said "I guess you could come with me,the only problem is having to get up and on the road at the crack of dawn". I thought for a minute, told him that wasnt a problem, it being S's last day of school and he gets out of noon makes it a problem. H agreed...I've been debating about trying to find a place for S to stay that after noon, and going with him. it did my heart good, however, that H even mentioned the possibility of me going. surely he wouldn't have done that if ow were going....he commented last week that he thought he was going to have to drive early in the morning and not stay overnight...I would have been incredibly upset if he were gone overnight.

[sage]

Deb,

Hey, listen, try NOT to read into the performance problem thing...heck, that's temperature checking to the nth degree and it will drive you CRAZY!

As for the phone bill, I would say leave it for now if you can...you are rebuilding and while it stinks to high heaven that he's still calling her, you are making positive steps every darned day...I dunno...leave it for a bit? (Not necessarily saying forever...just for a bit).

As much as I hate to say it --admit it, I guess, denial seems to be a happier place to live--

Denial or "conscious forgetting" can be a happier place to live for a while..AND it can be key for both of you getting over the hurdles.

That being said, I expect to be in the minority here...I just think not doing something right now...and particularly not doing it when you're feeling emotional is a good idea.

Hang in there, kiddo. Don't lose sight of how many wonderful changes you've made IN you and FOR you and S (and h and M)!

Sage

[psluke]

Deb,

You are sounding stressed and frantic! 24 hour rule!!!!!!

Please try to calm down. Do you meditate? I know from personal experience you can't think when this emotional.

[sage]

I am a mess right now, and can't see much good of anything.

OK, that's understandable but here's the thing...stop looking then, for good, bad or otherwise.

You don't have to ACT now, you don't have to decide, you don't have to do anything. You can choose to back away, do some regrouping, distract youreslf, whatever it takes to make your next move be from a position of calm and strength not reaction.

I KNOW it's easy for me to say but Deb, you have proven over and over of late that you can be in charge of your emotions and actions...you have done a TREMENDOUS (clap! clap! Hooray!) job of really getting a grip on it...don't lose it now. I'm not saying I know what the right next step is for you but I do know it doesn't have to come today.

I am so confused, I don't know what is going on. Is he just using me, stringing me along?????why? because he's afraid? IF HE WANTS HER, WHY THE HELL DOESNT HE GET HIS BUTT DOWN THERE? IF HE WANTS OUR LIFE, WHY THE HELL DOESNT HE LET HER GO?

Honestly, hon, I don't think this has a thing to do with YOU. This is all about him at the moment. So, let it be.

Sage

[psluke]

Deb,

Believe me I'm sympathetic and you have to do what you feel is best for you.

I think he is trying but it will take him as long as it takes him. We each process and handle things differently.

Your choice is do you want to give him more time realizing that right now this is where he is at in his process?

Keep working on your GAL. Something Calystra always asked me and I never realized the full extent of it is, What would I be doing different if I were divorced? Well, I am getting more of a life but I'm not doing anything I couldn't have done when I was still married.

Obviously my detachment hasn't been great lately but it sure is a nice place when I'm there for a bit.

Just try to sit out the emotional storm before reaching a decision on any action or non action.

[psluke]

I am so tempted to send him an email...don't know what I'd say...I'm tempted to do a lot worse than send him an email.

Hi Deb,

Why do you want to send him an e-mail? Have you really examined what and why you are feeling what you are feeling this morning?

What are you telling yourself this morning, will your self talk help you feel better or simply inflame the emotions?

Will what you are feeling help you reach your ultimate goals?

I'm trying to get the logical side to take over from the emotional side of your brain! Unfortunately for me my emotional side gets a lot more exercise and is much stronger!

[debcb]

I guess I want to send him an email because I can be somewhat less emotional, and I want to reiterate that I love him but I am not going to live with this for the rest of my life. I want to ask him what it means...that he is telling me it is over and still in such heavy contact with her.

[psluke]

why do I keep letting him put me through this???????????????

what is wrong with me that I am so weak and spineless that I put up with this?????

ACTUALLY fighting for your marriage is much harder than walking away from it. So you aren't weak or spineless or have anything wrong with you!

YOU are endeavering to better yourself, hold the family together for your children and yourself and have the strength to battle through the emotions and situations you are encountering on your journey!!!!!!!!!!

[41dk]

Hey-

We cross-posted. I can't blame you for what you did but unfortunatley, you just made yourself more miserable by snooping. I have to tell you I would have done the same thing but I really can not advise you to keep doing it unless you WANT to work yourself up into such anger as to kick him out.

Breathe, relax, and calm. Please consider giving it 24 hours. You will have our support no matter what you decide but please do not act out of anger (and fear).

Dawn

[41dk]

Deb-

I need to know from H , honestly, what he is doing/planning with ow, what he intends.

IMHO, NO Deb, you need to know what YOU want and tell him. He has already given you his song and dance...time for you to give yours.

I am going to have to make it stick,

GOOD! I will hold you to that.

Deb, this does not have to be the end. I can be the beginning of you getting what you need.

Prepare a statement, write it down if you need to.

Be back in a few minutes

Dawn

[debra]

Deb
You know I dont come here to often anymore, but I wanted to let you know that I too am here to get you through this day.

You need to talk to your priest because you need someone to comfort you. It will do you a world of good, keep dialing that number and make sure they know you are in great need right now.

Start making the calls you need to get the information you need. Start with a lawyer, find one you are comfortable with and see what he/she suggest regarding moving out. Yes he should go but that will just send him to Donna. If you go it may possibly keep him at home (you could consider leaving S with him for a change depending on what S needs right now) where he can start thinking without her around.

I know the things you found hurt. I am sorry.

I agree with everyone here. You need to stick to what you say this time or else it will just be more of the same. If he says he wants the marriage to work, he calls her today with you there and tells her no more and actively starts looking for another job.

Can you have someone cover your class tonight or reschedule? This needs to be Deb time. Use a charge card and stay in a hotel until you can get your thoughts together and your plans made. He has spent money you didnt have, it is your turn and your right to do so.....

I am here. We all are........

love
debra

[41dk]

Deb-

Caught this before I left. Was very happy to read that you were able to talk to someone. I agree with the priest it is time.

Maybe I will tell him I'm not ready to discuss it.

MHO, not an option. You started this (meant with all understanding and kindness) by sending the email. You need to see it through otherwise you will once again come across as falsely threatening.

I wish the best for you Deb. You have a lot more power over this situation than you think you do.

No reason to get into the nitty-gritty details of the situation just ask for a yes or no answer from him. Be firm and to the point about your decision based on what he has to say to you.

Good luck tonight.

Dawn

[kml]

Maybe I will tell him I'm not ready to discuss it.

I like this option. Also - how about not coming home right after your class - how about coming home at, say, three am? And being a little mysterious about where you were?

Look - the bottom line is, your H is still really confused. It may be that only the real threat of losing you will wake him up. Instead of kicking him out, or giving him an ultimatum - how about doing something totally out of character? I like the idea of postponing the conversation, then informing him you are going away alone for the weekend. Be mysterious. Let him sweat it. Go somewhere and have FUN for the weekend. Don't answer your phone.

You need to shift his focus OFF of "hmmm, who do I really want, W or OW?" and onto "OMG, I'm not ready to lose my W!!!! What if she sleeps with another man???"

MLC - it's not just for aliens anymore

Ellie

[psluke]

Hi Deb,

About to sign off for the night and wanted you to know you have been in my thoughts this evening.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Deb}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[kml]

there is not a thing left that I can think of to try, so I guess I have that satisfaction.

Deb - reread the chapter on the Last resort.

Ellie

[debcb]

thanks all of you, for your support and suggestions. Ellie, I will reread that chapter, I was thinking this weekend I needed to do it. Except I may have to go buy a new book, I think maybe H has abscounded with mine.

So, to recap and I guess lay out my plans here.
Needless to day it was an interesting weekend. I'm still blown away by I am determined. I've thought and thought about how I might have handled this differently, and I still think I've done what had to be done to have any chance. We had grown so distant that there was really no M to save when the A began. So, we shall see what happens now.

After I left from posting on Saturday, I went home trying to sort out what to do before H got home. I put the copies I'd made of the emails I'd found into an envelope from work and laid them out. I'm certain he was at her place that morning.

When he came in, he came to hug me. I hugged him back, and said quietly and lovingly, no tears (I am proud of myself there..I've pretty much been able to avoid that all weekend, just a few, very few, trickles) "you need to go" he caught his breath and asked what..I repeated my statement. his eyes teared up, and I told him that I had found out more about the situation, that I absolutely can not live with it as it is any more, and I can't live with the sneaking and lies. That if he is not able to cut it off and leave cut off, then he needs to go. i am finished with living with this.

He got defensive and angry, as always. Said it was pretty well over, on the just friends level now.....I told him to drop the BS because I knew better, that I have it in black and white all the hot sweet emails from her on our anniversary one week before. The hot sweet emails from him to her, those about meeting before work, thanking him for all the time they've been spending together and how it makes her feel more secure in their love, from the email on our anniversary.

H got really POd, claimed he didnt know what I was talking about . I told him to quit lying, I have it in black and white. Then he went into a tirade about did I think I was helping anything by snooping and reading all that stuff.

Then I did fib...I told him I didnt have to, that information shows up at work, that I've told him everyone knows.....then he got really pissy, said he didnt believe it and he wanted to see it...so I gave the copies of the emails. He got more angry, went into a tirade about only a few people had access to be able to get that, and he was going to see that their heads rolled. I said, "for what, exposing you guy's violation of company email policy/" and he continued to rant and rave about how he was "going to get some people" and I'd better come clean about how I got those are I'd no longer be the innocent victim because I'd be taking a lot of people down with me???????????????? I just stayed calm, looked him in the eye and told him I didn't know who they came from. He was furious absolutely furious. I don't think he will say a word to anybody about this, because the emails are against company policy enough to get them fired, and people who would have access actually are charged with doing "spot checks" of monitoring. So I don't think there's one damned thing he can do, I'll bluff with that hand as long as I can, I wont let anyone else go down if it comes to that. H was so mad, he actually got out the phone book and called the MIS person...luckily she didnt answer.

I repeated that I can no longer live with this. That either "it" ends or we end. that i don't want us to end, but that the pain of living with the lies and deceit and sneaking is just more than I can handle. That if he needs/choses to be with her, then I need to build a life that brings me joy, that it's his choice to be with her or me, but the choice is "or".

We had a lot of discussion. H kind of started to spill his guts. highlights: Theyve been back together since november; I kinda suspected that; she was the one who broke it off and she then called him up bawling and screaming that she couldnt live with outhim; he worries about her -- she has high blood pressure, migraines, etc.; she has no one else to help her with stuff; Damn, she has him doing chores for her that I don't even ask because I don't want him to be all "pissy" about the imposition...; he had told her he didnt think he could "do it", meaning get a divorce, and she throws fits. He feels incredibly guilty...I told him that I would look at the sitch a lot differently if she had not known he was married, had been married for a long time, had 2 kids....h agreed that yes, she knew. he said "for the record, she's the one who took it to this level, I didnt resist, but it was her initiation. I told him that's what I'd always believed.

Evidently they have helacious fights, she holds grudges on then "pounces" on him when he doesnt suspect there's anything wrong, that the fights they have make our discussion at time look like a normal conversation. That she is undependable, she will change plans at the drop of a hat and that makes him crazy.

I told him the choice was his, but he had to make it, and he had to make it soon, and he had to stick by it. That if I end it, I won't be screaming for him to come back as she did, if I say I am finished I will be finished. h said I couldnt know how i'd respond....I told him yes, I do, I've had a LOT of time to consider this...then he said "I suppose so"...I asked him when he would be able to let me know what his choice was, and he said "tomorrow", then he said no, I've decided, I'm staying. I asked if he realized that means that he is done with her, and he said yes. I told him that I need concrete evidence that he has ended it and I need to know when, and that if he can't do it, I need to know that as well. he swore he would tell me. I told him that if it "fires up" again, I am done.

I wanted to make sure I'd made myself clear, and I brought it up again later...H said "I get it...it ends or we are done, and if it starts again we are done"...yep, that's right...

we talked about where we went wrong, not keeping a balance between focus on the kids and work and chores and still making time for "us"...and how important that would be in the future.

H is angry that I'm not romantic enough, and weight is an issue. we discussed those issues.

H said how hard it is to cut it off, and he needs some time to do it, he wants to do it "well". I asked how he will do it, he said he guessed by phone...then he talked about wanting to go to say good bye to ow's D before she leaves for the summer. I asked if that means he has to go there, don't know what he said but I'm sure that's what it means.told him I'm sure that will make it harder. I asked what he thinks he needs for time, and he said "1st of June" ....told him that is what I will plan on then, that he will have ended it and have let me know it was ended and how he did it by then. any evidence after that that it's fired back up means I am going to take action to end our M...

H talked about that it was terribly painful to end it, but he cant even conceive of the pain of ending our M or us being apart, that it makes no sense at this point in our lives. he wants his little boy (duh, you dummy) our home, he loves me, blah blah blah.

That this is hell and something to NEVER get involved in, that it is a miracle we are still together. I asked if that is what he would tell some one else comptemplating an A, and he said "YES!" he said it has been hell, and that he has been avoiding making a decision, thinking that if he could just keep everybody happy and "that down there" to minimum that he could manage, but that it was killing him and was not going to work. That he has prayed and prayed to be shown the way and maybe this is is. that it is "almost a relief"...
That really raised a question mark in my mind. For so long I have wondered about him leaving stuff where it's so nearly obvious. I mean, his breifcase where I knew the latest emails would be was on the floor in our bedroom, sitting right in front of MY chest of drawers, leaning against it so I would have to move it to get into the bottom drawer. IF he DIDN'T want me to find it, wouldnt you think he would have kept it with him? I know he has had it set up so he would know when I got in it....he had the zippers arranged just so, and other items inside. guess he doesnt realize that one obsessive-compulsive is as tuned into details as the next.

so, the deal is...he is to end it by June 1, he is to let me know HOW he is going to end it, and WHEN he has done so. ANY contact after that that I verify will mean that I begin proceedings to file for separation. I have concerns that he could just go to a higher level of sneaking, but we shall see.

I've been thinking of what I need to do. Saturday when I got home, I was thinking of money, what could I get my hands on...I packed up some antique glass ware that is pretty valuable, I used to collect it when we seemed to be more financially stable. and the crystal we got for wedding gifts, It was expensive 30 years ago. It would take time to sell, but all of that is worth something to collectors. I loaded it into the back of my minivan, and it's still there. I put cheap glass ware in it's place, H doesnt usually pay attention to such stuff, but I noticed him yesterday evening wiping the dust off the rear window to look in the van. Interesting.

Yesterday evening H was going for a walk when I pulled in the drive from running errands. I commented to him that I'd been thinking about us and our situation, and that I really was not pleased with the prospect of us being apart. He said "I don't intend for us to", and kissed me. so, we shall see. I am hopefull, but very guardedly so.
So, this week, I need to work on what I need to do to get my ducks in order:
-open a checking account (i figured out where to get enough to at least open it);
-set up counseling appt. w/priest
-call several atty's to see about a consult
-make some calls to see what I could do to get rid of my overloaded credit card situation, which adds to the problems.
-start updating my resume
-PRAY
-work out 3X

Don't know what else to do. Havent heard from H this morning by email.

[totallyconfused]

if you were me

Of course I meant .. If I were you ... (sorry! )

[psluke]

Just a thought. What if he does mean to end it and then feels he will end up paying for the A for the rest of his time with Deb?

I think this is a very fine line to walk, stating and keeping boundaries without making him feel he has to do penance for his mistakes.