Hi everybody,
My name is Eagle3, will tell my story in the shortest possible version.
HB since mid-2017 in crisis with clearly definable trigger. Noticeable since became distant, selfish, angry for no reasons. (the usual as everybody describes) This period took about 2 years. He also changed jobs in Nov. 2018 where he met OW the first day of his new job. Relationship started a few months later.
BD and famous ILYBNILWY in April 2019. I immediately found out about OW (same month).
Then clinging boomerang from that same month until I kicked him out the beginning of October 2019. He never actually lived permanently with OW (lives in another country where head office of his work was based) although he was there during the week and came home @ weekends. He always told me he had to go to that country for work reasons but I soon found out he stayed there for her. (could work a lot from office where we live as well but he did not do that)
When I finally realised this was the case, I decided to confront him that he couldn’t have both women and that he had to make a choice. I did not ask him to stop the relationship as I did not have control about that (yes, read another website a thousand times as well as the Divorce Busting forums) but I asked him to go to a counsellor as he was not OK or to leave the house.
He of course chose the last option but still very difficult to get him out.
As he did not want to leave I searched an apartment myself, even bought his sheets and pillows and made his bed, and when he knew he didn’t have a choice he finally left.
1st real awakening followed shortly after and break-up with OW as well. Asked to move back in December and agreed, only to find out a week later that he was seeing OW again. Confronted him and said he had to leave after the holidays if he couldn’t make a choice. I did not kick him out as I was seeing he was trying the utmost to break-up with her. Final break was the beginning of February. Since then no contact with her anymore until today. (100% sure, she tried a month later, he blocked her, he tried during OW withdrawal, she blocked him)
All the time during that period depression, monster and withdrawal were clearly seen but since OW was still in the picture I knew it was still replay behaviour. During that time he also already had clear moments where he apologized, cried etc. but next day all gone again. Drinking increased enormously as from January as well.
He finally came home “full time” in February 2020. At work it didn’t go well but since my HB is a very clever person they decided to offer him another job (after a self-assessment which clearly showed his dominant behaviour, more details but too long to tell) in another function in the International mother company (with basis in another continent then where we currently live). He decided to accept the job. (did consult with me, told him he had to take it if that would make him happier.)
He would normally leave in April but had to work from home due to COVID-19. I think this wasn’t a bad thing. (this is also what he told me)
February, March and April were ‘fairly normal’ months (in MLC terms) as he started connecting bit by bit again with our 3 children, the family and me (but friend zone), but clearly saw OW withdrawal (I love her some much, she was the love of my life etc) and heavily drinking with many conversations, but only with me and always when drunk, and this behaviour increased during May, June and July with huge depression coming to the surface. (I have seen panic attacks during the night, crying, apologies, irritation, heavy physical pains, anger, withdrawal etc.)
In August if got so bad that I told him I wanted some time-out with the children and that we would leave for a few months so “he could think over what he wanted in life, on his own) in a very friendly way. He seemed to understand this and didn’t want me to leave the house so suggested to ask his work if he could leave to work in the other country and they agreed with the necessary COVID test etc.. (although the months before he said he made a mistake by accepting this job and leaving everybody behind)
I will not go into detail how our 3 children (16y-13y-13y) are cooping as I think this is very private but I can only say that for me this is the worst part. We are adults and understand the process in a certain way and after a certain amount of time, but for them this will have an impact on their future lives, and they will never look at ‘life’ in an innocent way anymore I guess. I’m very open with them and we talk a lot about it and I can see this is of huge help. They now found a certain peace with it, understanding the process in their own way.
He left the end of August. The idea was to come home every 6 weeks to two months. When he left he told me he had to confront himself with whom he was and what he did. I had the idea it was going better with him since he was alone. We skype 2 times a week with the children on fix days and this is working quite well. But since this week he started drinking again and calling when drunk to me. He suddenly wanted to come home for 2 weeks and actually did. Told me on the phone he is a very cold person, he doesn’t miss anybody, not even his children, he doesn’t want to be like that etc. He hates his whole family as they see him as the mad one in the family (his words), in 5 minutes time a complete other story, everybody is bad and he is the victim…
What is going on? Can’t seem to place this in any of the stages? I was sure he was already as far as depression/withdrawal but now I’m having doubts again.
The only constant thing he says for the last 6 months is that he wants to try to be a family again, but still doesn’t know if he wants to be with me. He says we are best friends now and that living in the other country will provide him the necessary answers.
New one is that he will be coming home every 4 to 6 weeks since this is expected from him, this is what a father and a husband has to do, not really because he misses us, but because this is his duty??
I know you always ask how the LBS is doing 😊. The first 6 months were h@ll for me. I did all the wrong things like begging and crying, lost 10 kgs, couldn’t sleep but went to counselling and bit by bit understood what had to be done and I’m actually doing very well. I learned a lot about myself and I’m not the same person anymore. I also decided to be the stanchion (for now), and live my life the best I can with our children. I’m fully able to let it go, strange but it is like I’m emotionally disconnected from him, although I still love him. Even in bed I don’t even have the feeling anymore to want to hug him, not when he is the person he currently is.
But as you know, it never is out of your head…that is the price you pay when you want to stick by their side. That is the reason why I tell my story now. I’m a bit stuck in the trust of the process and how it is progressing. 😊
Who would be prepared to give me some insight?
The reason why I only subscribed now, even when that far already is because I simply wasn’t ready to talk with anybody except with some very close friends.
Many thanks!!
Welcome! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome Posting. Please read all of the links as they have lots of great info.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D32,S31
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
As you are a new member joining the site, I will caution you that this site does not allow references to other sites and/or links to other sites. I have also put in hard returns in your first posting to make it easier for the readers to read your posting.
Your h sounds like he's still in replay. Try to remember that the stages and timelines are a guideline and each MLCer will experience their crisis differently due to their personalities, childhoods and traumas. Some will have the same traits as others and some will be completely off the chart.
When dealing w/someone that is in crisis, it is a marathon, not a sprint.
Thx Job for your quick reply.
I indeed read all the links in your first reply several times in the past and they were really helpfull!
Can you give me an insight on why you think he is still in replay please?
I know depression is always present and I have seen this throughout the years but as it got so bad the last 6 months I assumed this was the actual stage of depression which is getting better now and withdrawal since in other country on his own.
The reason that I say "replay" is because of his actions. What you posted basically described someone who is confused and in crisis, and yes, depressed,, i.e, the drinking, living far from home and has admitted he is a cold person. He is very much down on himself and doesn't want to be around the people he has known and loved.
The replay, depression/withdrawal go hand in hand. He's living in another country and he is trying to find himself. He is at the moment self medicating w/the alcohol. He may very well be in the deep, dark depression, but still in replay. Try to remember that the stages are linear. They can bounce back and forth many times until they confront their issues and accept the things that they cannot change.
Some of them do make an attempt to come home for a period of time and then run again. Why? Because in their minds they are warming back up to the spouse/companion and don't feel comfortable in their own skin. Of course, guilt and shame also play a factor in how they feel about themselves and what they've done. They also use the time at home to compare the ow/om to the spouse, but in the end, until the crisis is over, they will feel "trapped" or suffocated" living in the home and will have that need to run. Some live in the same city, others a town over and some move across the country or to another land. They will attempt many things and find that nothing will feel right until the crisis ends.
I would continue to listen and do not offer up advice unless he asks for it. Be a friend, don't push for info. Just listen.
BTW, did you read the links in the Resources thread? Lots of valuable info in those threads.
This is a very clear answer, fully understood. Thanks Job!
The OW is gone since 6 months now, he also mentioned several times back then he would not lie anymore and I must admit he hasn't done it since then.
Is this normal behaviour? OW gone and not lying anymore but still in replay?
I must admit the clear boundaries were no contact with me if OW was still in the picture and if lying continued.
Eagle,
He may very well be at the "tail end" of the replay, but what concerns me is the drinking and still talking about being a cold person. He's fighting w/all he's got not to warm up to you and his family and friends, pre-crisis.
Sure, it can be very normal for the OP to be gone and yet be in replay. You have to remember that some people go into crisis and do not have OP to help them exit a relationship. Keep in mind, she may be gone, but he could also be looking around...but you have to understand that is my opinion. Try to focus on his actions, not his words.
Let me ask you this...has he begun to reconnect w/his old friends, family, etc.? Does he show interest in the family and what all of you are doing? Has he begun to talk more about what he's doing and sounds warmer when speaking to you? Or, is he still playing the "Debbie Downer", the feeling sorry for himself talks?
Again, let's not put our entire focus on the stages, but on the man, what he is saying and doing. Remember...actions speak louder than words. Listen very closely to what he's telling you. You may be able to figure out what is going on in his mind if he's chatty.
If you have not read the thread on reconnection, you may want to visit it. I wrote it many years ago and thus far, it has proven to be spot on when they begin to reconnect.
Here's the link:
TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection (new)
You say he’s had depressive episodes before - has he ever been treated for depression? Has his drinking been a problem in the past? Alcoholics often drink to soothe their depression, but alcohol is also a depressant that makes things worse in the long run. Has he ever taken anti-depressants?
This is a good time to assess whether this is out of character for your H, of really just an exaggeration or unveiling of who he really is.
As for the kids - it’s terrible they have to experience this at this age (similar to my three). I though DBing and reconciling with my H at that point that I was also doing the best for my kids. I thought we had several more good years before he relapsed into MLC at age 50. However, I found out later that my kids were always waiting for the other show to drop after that first episode. They lived in a state of anxiety because of it.
The very best thing YOU can do for your kids right now is to model strength (they need to know you won’t collapse on them either) and get your financial ducks in a row. Do what you have to do to make sure you will be financially ok if he leaves and tries to duck his financial responsibilities in another country.
Hi Job,
In my opinion I guess he bounced back in a way but with different dynamics.
When he came home in February full time he actually tried his utmost to reconnect about a month later. (I read your tread already several times)
He was much nicer, gave compliments, played games with the children, went for long walks with me and talked a lot more about work and interest in mine as well. He also said there was growing a connection with the house (new one, just before BD). He started his favorite sport again, which he never did anymore since MLC started.
This lasted about 2 months until he started to fall in a deep depression, drinking increased heavily etc.
I then saw things at night which I never saw before. Huge panic attacks, screaming he left everybody behind, talking about how he is a failure to everybody, speaking about we'd be better of without him, in bed all day etc. But also sometimes the completed opposite. Angry, pat on his own head,...
But he kept doing that sport about 2 times a week.
Contact with family and friends is indeed still very limited. He keeps contact with almost all of them as it is like he doesn't want to loose them, but he keeps it to the limit.
When he left for work to live in the other country he suddenly started doing sports on a daily basis, even a bit in a obsessive way in my opinion. Now he came home and I see a cold man towards family, the children and me, basically also a very selfish man....and yet again also trying to connect, very strange.
Dear KML,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I think I may have not formulated it correctly. No, he never had depressive episodes before MLC, at least not since I met him. He did see a psychiatrist when he was young for a few years as back then he had much difficulties with the divorce of his parents and a close relative who died. (never took medication) He was very rebellious when young and teenager as well. When I met him he was still very rebellious but as years went by he found a sort of piece with me and the children.
When I see him now I always compare to how he was back then. I see the exact same person as when I met him. I saw this behaviour in January and now I see this again. He is like a teenager all over again.
He was never an alcoholic but when he started drinking he couldn't stop until he was quite drunk but at least stopped then. This only happened during weekends, he had a fix rule of not drinking during the week which he introduced again since he came home. (although he doesn’t always stick to it)
The difference is that when he drinks now, it is much more than before so in my opinion it is definitely an exaggeration.
Thank you for sharing the thoughts of your children as well. I’m doubting if what I’m doing, and that is standing for my marriage, is also the best solution for them. They don’t have any doubts about me being there for them, I’m sure, and I know this is indeed what they need and what I say very often to them.
The strange thing is that since BD, I went through a rollercoaster of emotions but since a couple of months now I'm strong enough to handle every situation, it's actually amazing how much strength I feel.
Financially we do not have any issues. We both have good jobs and saved a lot during the years. He also used to love spending money before his MLC, so since his MLC started he became the opposite of himself and actually became stingy (don’t know if that’s the correct word 😊).
I have a question for you if I may. Did you ever realized that your husband was going to have a relapse, if you look back now? This must have been extremely hard…
Some advice needed...
Everybody is speaking about the fact that you need get an own life but I find it very difficult to find a balance. Me and the children have a good life now, definitely when he is not @ home. But whenever he feels like coming home and actually does it he wants to do things together with me and the children like going out to restaurants etc. (never alone with me thought, and I don’t ask it either)
He told me once that he gave up “his happiness” and chose us because these are the values he stands for, and I really have the feeling that this is what he is doing now and believes it. I then told him that the worst thing he could do is to stay in our relation because this is what people expect of him (and that he hurts me more with that then anything else) and that if he felt happiness with her that he has to choose for that but then no contact with me, only for the children. He immediately said that he did not meant it like that…
What I want to say is, I love him more than anything in the world, but we are in the best years of our lives and I want to share good things with our children. The past 2 years have been hard for all of us and I want to make the best out of it now which is starting to work bit by bit, but this is very difficult to maintain when he is constantly interrupting things with his crazy behaviour and attitude.
Some questions as I don’t really know how to handle them:
I would like to plan a trip with the children in the coming months and honestly, the way he is now I’d rather would like to go without him. How do you deal with this?
He asked if we maybe would come over the end of the year for a week to the other country. I know he now asks this because it is ‘his duty’ to ask us since we are his family. Not because he wants us to be there. I thought to let my children go without me but they don’t want to do that. They only want to go if I go with them. I can see they are often afraid of his crazy behaviour and drinking.
Same thing with the skype sessions we do twice a week. He expects to have this with all of us, but since I’m “his friend” now and not his wife, is it a good thing to always be available for him? (the children also want me to be there)
Hi
There are programs to help family and spouses of alcoholics
check online if interested
This is in addition to this program which has much more info on MLC
It has more information on dealing with a problem drinker/spouse
Many MLCer will drink so it is up to us to see if the situation is a safe ones for our kids
and if we need additional help in dealing with the added issue of alcoholism and MLC
He was never an alcoholic but when he started drinking he couldn't stop until he was quite drunk but at least stopped then.
This IS an alcoholic. Sounds like he was always an alcoholic, he's just not as well controlled now. You need to break through your denial about this.
If you have Al-Anon meetings where you are, you should think about attending them. Sounds like midlife crisis/depression has worsened his underlying alcoholism. You can find support with other spouses of alcoholics.
You asked about my ex. His first MLC came after he turned 40, and a couple years later he had a brief affair with a temporary coworker. I found out and began DBing him and our marriage. We reconciled (he never left the house although he was planning to) and we actually had several very good years after that. (Although, like I said, the kids were always waiting for the other shoe to drop). Then as he was approaching 50, and after a few concussions that didn't help, he asked for a divorce. I convinced him to stay through the holidays so the kids wouldn't always associate Xmas with him leaving. I suspect, but don't have proof, that he was cheating on me again at that time.
To me, it felt like "three strikes and you're out". He had cheated on me once in the first year of our marriage, during his first MLC, and now his second. A couple of months after he moved out, when he filed for divorce, I let go completely. I knew that I could never trust him even if he came back so I was done. I had peace in my heart that I had done everything possible to save my marriage and felt released. (In retrospect I also suspect that he cheated more than I knew, or at least flirted with the idea of it more than I knew.)
After my divorce I came to recognize that my ex was also a narcissist. We all were valuable to him only so long as we made him look good. In retrospect, we all went along with the things that HE wanted to do, but he never returned that favor. In the years since our divorce, he has neglected to help our adult children in several situations where they needed financial help (he makes over twice what I do and can easily afford to help).
I'm thankful that the (very) young woman he is remarried to was not one of his affair partners - she came along about a year after we split and I have no animus towards her. In fact I feel kinda sorry for her as she is getting the old, worn out version of the guy I was married to. I wouldn't have him back now if he was handed to me on a silver platter.
I'm glad to hear that you are on financially stable ground. I often note that those women who are not financially dependent on the spouse do often have an easier time of it as their decisions about their marriage are not based on financial need.
Also - my ex wasn't any kind of a drinker, but I do suspect he had a very mild form of bipolar disorder. He had infrequent "blue" periods in his younger days, and lived most of his life in a hypomanic state - very energetic and effective. In his forties the "highs" became a little more irrational, a little more pressured, a little more like a train barrelling down the tracks that can't stop. I think his multiple concussions in his 40's made this worse. But his underlying issue was an essential inability to be satisfied - he had a great career, lovely home, wonderful kids, loving and attentive wife, but nothing was ever enough - it was like he always had to have some challenge or adventure or eventually OW to make him feel better.
I look at my marriage now and can see the good parts - we made a good team in many ways, and our sex life was good always. But I also see how I was probably the ideal spouse for HIM, as I have a strong sense of self and was not phased by his negativity and criticism. It's so nice now though, not walking on eggshells around a difficult person who has trouble being happy. And every man I have dated since my divorce has valued me more than my ex has, and none have tried to change me. It's nice being appreciated for who I am.
If you have the money to do the trip, I would go but make a fun trip out of for yourself, finding a cute place to stay apart from him. You can come and go as you want, and kids can sleep where they feel most comfortable. I tried to do this so my kids could see my MIL, who refused to see me.
Other than that, I would not go to the Skype conferences. I would say hello and then say, "I will let you guys have fun!" and disappear.
I know it hurts to hear that stuff he is saying about choosing, but I think you are interpreting it wrong. Everything he is saying is a lie he is telling himself. He doesn't even know what he feels or thinks. He's just using another way to say the same thing all of our spouses said, to tie you in knots and make you feel horrible about yourself or like it's your fault.
My H was a drinker too. And kept us hanging like yours does. If you have a chance to read my thread, I would suggest that; you can see all the mistakes I made and not make them.
I know how hard it is with the kids. But I protected my kids from the truth about their dad and I think that was a disservice. You can stand for the marriage and pray for your H by yourself and with your kids if you are a faith person, but that doesn't mean you have to participate in this project to hurt you.
I would like to plan a trip with the children in the coming months and honestly, the way he is now I’d rather would like to go without him. How do you deal with this?
Just plan the trip and go without him! I would just be honest and inform him that you are taking the kids to [location] from [this date to this date].
He asked if we maybe would come over the end of the year for a week to the other country. I know he now asks this because it is ‘his duty’ to ask us since we are his family. Not because he wants us to be there. I thought to let my children go without me but they don’t want to do that. They only want to go if I go with them. I can see they are often afraid of his crazy behaviour and drinking. Same thing with the skype sessions we do twice a week. He expects to have this with all of us, but since I’m “his friend” now and not his wife, is it a good thing to always be available for him? (the children also want me to be there)
I would suggest avoiding mind-reading. He invites you, if you want to go, then go. if you don't want to go, then don't go. The children don't want to go without you and you don't want to go anyway, then don't go! Don't do his work for him. If he truly values spending time with children, he will move mountains to do that. Skype calls - you can explain to the children that you will be right there physically but won't engage on the call. If the children don't want to speak with him without you actually on the call, then maybe the call should not be forced upon them. When my H calls to talk to the kids, I put it on speaker and I just do stuff around the house when they talk to each other.
It sounds like you may have difficulties enforcing your boundaries. There are many great threads to read on that topic.
Thank you all for sharing your advice.
It feels good to talk about this with people who are dealing/ have dealt with this MLC madness.
I have read many of your threads now and can only express my huge respect for all of you, Peacetoday, KML, Gerda and Wooba.
I have a specific question in regard to bounderies.
When he was with OW and the time after, when he was living at home and crazy behavior (OW withdrawal etc.) I was able to put clear bounderies on him and these actually worked very well.
We knew he had to leave to the other country for work and he always had an excuse to postpone the move until I friendly forced him to do so since I also needed some time on my own and together with the children since living with someone in MLC is not easy.
The purpose was that he would be 4 to 6 weeks abroad and then come back for about a week. He is here now and I must say that things are going quite well. He is calm, normal drinking behavior, gets groceries, makes dinner some times, works in the garden, talks about work, normal interaction with the children etc.
The only thing I noticed very well is how introverted he is on certain moments during the day.
He also still does his sports on a daily basis like he started doing the last month abroad.
I just live my life like I do when he is not here but we also do all sorts of stuff together, on his request.
Just like what a married couple with children would do but no affection.
I know in my heart that this isn't quite right altough I currently don't want anything more with him either.
All we had together as a couple is dead now, even in my head.
But there is still love from my side of course, otherwise I wouldn't be standing.
My question to you: Do I have to put a boundary on this kind of behavior?
Do I need to say. We can't be just friends and do all this stuff together and still be married?
Basically, is it necessary to put certain bounderies since we are not a couple, but still married and acting as friends?
Also, is the above behavior Limbo, or am I using the wrong word?
(English is not my native language and I think sometimes I misinterpretate words)
Eagle -- Don't label anything. Try not to notice what he is doing one way or the other. I know it's next to impossible, but try. You may have seen in my thread I thought I was "stirring the pot" and his MLC is now seven years and counting. And I have realized he may always have been mentally ill on top of that. Labeling will hobble you because it will give you expectations.
Don't make a boundary in order to affect his behavior or tell him what's what. It won't work.
Make a boundary because you need something. Do you need to not be around him when he is with the kids or are you willing to suffer a little because you think the kids like it? I am not saying it's good for the kids. Looking back, I think I should have kicked my H out long before I did. But if it is actually nice to be all together and he is not damaging them with his behavior and weirdness, then decide if you feel like being there or not and do what you want. Maybe some days you'll have plans. Maybe some days you'll feel like reading a book in the hammock while they are doing stuff in the garden. Maybe some days you'll leave for the weekend when he comes home. It's up to you, what you need to have peace. And you don't have to have a hard and fast rule if you don't need one yet.
I know a couple who has a relationship like brother and sister for many years. It's very sad on some levels but they are Catholic and very devoted to their kids and have made peace with chastity. I'm not saying that's a good solution, but just that you don't need a rule based on what the world expects for your sex life.
As far as doing things together at his request
It is up to you
In my situation, I wanted to keep things calm
When XH visited, I was kind and cordial as best as possible
he rarely wanted to go anywhere with me...just the kids
but he wanted to talk and hang out- I let him
Just to see...what would happen-
I wanted the M, I played it out till the end when he Married OW- then that was it
It gave me time
much needed time
To do therapy
to heal
to get a handle on my pain and the new situation
single mother
working mom
To work on Gal and letting go
So if it buys you time to figure it out
If it gives the kids a chance to bond with him...
There will come a time...
when we know
Trust that
We watch the MLC behavior to see if he turns back-
it takes time, usually a few years at least and sometimes more depending on each individual situation
You sound strong
You have limits
You are standing for you are also creating a new life with your kids
You are healing'
Therapy is important now
grieve the M
it is over
If you are friendly, and it works as a friendship
a new R can develop
even if its just for co-parenting
The other thing is to consider is is he cake eating
enjoying family time...best of both worlds
while he goes and plays in his new MLC life- without family ties
It is a delicate line we walk as LBS
No decisions need to be made today
I trust you will find your best path
hold on to that for now and let him do
If you dont want to spend time as a family...You can say No...maybe another day
You may be busy
Thank you Gerda and PeaceToday.
With your strong words you actually make it easier to deal with it.
Exactly what I needed over the past week!
Thanks for that.
I was wondering, most of the time there is a trigger why they slide into the MLC tunnel.
Is there also a trigger to come out of the tunnel or is this simply a gradual process?
Can I read some threads about this somewhere?
Hello Eagle
Welcome.
Yes, there is usually a trigger that pushes the MLCer into crisis - a death, a marriage, the pressures of life, mortality, kids, finances, lost time, lost youth, etc... Long ago trauma(s) during their youth from a person in a position of authority come back to the surface. This emotional torment is ceaseless and unrelenting, a constant pain. The MLCer does not know what is happening to their life, to them, and they become desperate for some relief.
They lash out, they project their pain, they blame - onto you. Their loving spouse. We, LBS, become the target, the source of all their ills. In the MLCer’s desperate confused mind we must be at fault, for their fragile emotional self cannot face their pain. They live in denial, projecting, blaming, and expending enormous energies to maintain their fantasy reality.
Of course this trigger happens quietly and unseen by both the soon to be MLCer and LBS, usually 18-24 months before bomb drop. During this time the crisis is already started and the MLCer is so confused and trying to hold their life together. Eventually their emotional pain exploded and much damage is done.
Most MLCers have affairs, drink, spend, and so on. These running behaviours are common, like they follow a script. They become the opposite of the person you once knew. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they cannot handle it. So they run, desperate to escape. However, one cannot escape oneself.
The LBS needs to give time and space to the MLCer, for they will take it regardless. Hopefully, with no pressure from the LBS, and plenty of time, the MLCer will see that their LBS has not been “bothering” them for some time. Then, with luck, they will consider that perhaps it is themselves, their life, that is the source of their pain and torment. They look inward and begin to walk the path towards healing.
This exit, this ending of running, this awaking, sometimes has a trigger, sometimes is just gradual (like glacier slow, seriously very slow), and sometimes they never exit, never stop running.
What would it take for a seriously mixed up and confused emotional mind to be pushed towards awaking? It is impossible to tell, for we are not them, we are not experiencing whatever they are feeling. Even the MLCer couldn’t tell you what it would take. MLC is a terrible horrible thing. Their reality is smash and skewed, twisted into a bizarre form in which they are driven to sometimes very extreme ends. My XW threw away her four children like they were old clothes; giving me sole custody without so much as a care, never mind a fight. Although my MLCer is pretty far on the extreme spectrum.
Whether a trigger or gradual really depends upon one’s perception of the time involved. Awaking is usually “caused” by some fateful intervention or karmic happenstance. The relationship with the OP blowing up is a usual occurrence. Such an illicit affair is born from deceit, their relationship built upon sand, and that is a very poor foundation to stand against the storms of life.
As their infatuation dies out, and the shininess of their relationship wears off, life asserts itself. A person in crisis cannot handle life’s pressures or anyone else’s needs or emotions. The affair partner usually becomes too demanding and the R explodes. The MLCer may move on to another person or they might look inward.
Bills pile up, a car accident, a death of a family member or close friend, or other fateful event will take place eventually. Most crisis individual do not handle these at all well. Karma might reach out as well. Illicit and illegal behaviours have consequences, penalties from back taxes, tickets, repossessions, jail, job loss, and so on.
Whatever might happen, it is best to stay clear. Give no reason to have the MLCer’s problems incorrectly projected onto you. Unfortunately, their addled mind can make some incredible irrational leaps and still blame the LBS.
I just live my life like I do when he is not here but we also do all sorts of stuff together, on his request.
Just like what a married couple with children would do but no affection.
I know in my heart that this isn't quite right altough I currently don't want anything more with him either.
All we had together as a couple is dead now, even in my head.
But there is still love from my side of course, otherwise I wouldn't be standing.
My question to you: Do I have to put a boundary on this kind of behavior?
Do I need to say. We can't be just friends and do all this stuff together and still be married?
Basically, is it necessary to put certain bounderies since we are not a couple, but still married and acting as friends?
Also, is the above behavior Limbo, or am I using the wrong word?
The road back from MLC is difficult and slow.
It is hard to know if they have stopped running. Any OP still around is definitely an indicator of still running.
If they are stopping, starting to reach back, it is a timid and slow process - like a scared squirrel reaching towards your hand. It takes patience and more patience from the LBS to remain calm and still enough for them to feel safe.
Your questions and those necessary discussions will need to be put on hold for a while. This is not sweeping things under the rug, it is deferring them to a better time.
A boundary, as stated from other posters, is for you. It is not to alter or manipulate H’s path.
From the sounds of things a boundary is not required. H comes to you when he feels comfortable enough and you, he, and the kids do family stuff. This is good. Continue to do this.
Does he attempt to go further? To join you in bed? That would be a no. Unless you are sure there is no OW. Even still, I believe more time needs to elapse for him to show his true colours. Believe none of what they say, and only half of what they do.
Your signature line states OW ended Feb 2020. If he has been OP free since, for 9 months, that is encouraging.
Once you are sure of his intentions and the absence of any OW, and there is no cake eating, ensure he is STD free, a non-negotiable stipulation in my opinion. After that, you can consider your sex life.
I would not place your situation within limbo. To me limbo is complete alienation from your spouse, and standing with no sign or reason to. H is spending time with you and the kids, that is not limbo.
You are somewhat indifferent to H, and don’t feel very affectionate. This is ok, and perfectly normal. Your current situation from what I’ve read, looks to be in an equilibrium, a static state of sorts. Perhaps you would like to alter that a bit.
You could suggest doing something together. A sort of date. This may not work, that’s ok. Pressure might still be too much for him. If you try something and it doesn’t work, don’t fret, it may work later. Give plenty of time before trying again.
To me, you are feeling a void from your indifference towards H. Those protective walls we build around ourselves during our spouse’s crazy behaviour are pretty strong. I believe you need to start lowering those walls a bit. Allow yourself to feel a bit again. In this context, yes you are in limbo, IMHO.
We can't be just friends and do all this stuff together and still be married?
Why not?
This is just a step upon the path.
Be patient and keep moving forward.
D
I heard that sometimes there may be a trigger out of MLC, But I have not seen that too much here
Some MLCers seem to start coming back around and connecting again,
some do reconcile
But I would not count on a quick reversal
Once in the tunnel it can last 2-7 years or more depending on the person
I also think when they get deep into alcohol, destructive relationships, debt it may be harder for them to find a way out
Many a MLCer will create debt and drug abuse
this needs to be watched
I think the one thing that may help the MLCer is if they realize they need help and can get to a qualified therapist or 12 step program and work through issues
But Usually they don't realize they have a problem and intsead they project it on to us
Keep working on you
watch him- his actions
watch the finances
Dear DnJ,
Nice to meet you and thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I have waited a very long time to subscribe myself on the forum as I wasn’t ready for it and honestly a bit afraid for the unknown but I must say it really helps me to receive advice from all of you.
As I understand it correctly you don’t have any contact anymore with your XW, nor the children?
I can’t imagine what this must do to you, and to them…
My H has always been a clinging boomerang. As you might have read the trigger was indeed a few years ago.
His first real awakening was because I didn’t want to live anymore in the same house with him as long as he was with OW, I also knew the R already had many up & downs so I decided to kick him out.
From what I understood he lied as much to her as he did to me and “this broke her into pieces”! (his words) That is why he often said in the months after the break-up he felt so guilty because of what he did to here since he loved her so deeply…(the guilt towards me was not really present then)
There were a few break-ups before 02/2020 but it ended finally then. This is something I know 100% for sure. There is no OW in the picture anymore for now, that is why it is so difficult to know if he is still running or not.
Dynamics changed a lot since then.
More open depression for 4 months which is much better now, but I guess that was the OW withdrawal.
The drinking behaviour is still much more than before MLC, but I assume they still do this during depression/withdrawal as well, or should I say, when still in the tunnel.
Huge change is his sporting behaviour. He always used to love athletics, completely stopped for 2 years and chose a completely different sport but since OW break-up he slowly picked up the athletics again which became more frequent and now in a very fanatic way. He states it helps him thinking.
When he talks openly, which sometimes happens, he still says many things that don't make sense and are very incoherent. Also very contradictory sometimes. That is why I sometimes say things that make little sense in response. (I guess I do this in defense as I don’t want to feel the pain anymore, I’m past that stage…)
Frequent statements are:
- I’m very unhappy, I know it’s me and I know what my issues are but I don’t know how to solve it yet. I only know I
have to do it alone, nobody can help me with that.
- It doesn’t work anymore, nothing works
- I can let go of my friends and family too easily, I didn’t know I was like that (this scares him)
- I would better not be here anymore, the world is better off without me because I feel so guilty towards you and
the children
- I love you but it won’t work anymore between us, because too much happened and I don’t know if that feeling of
real love will come back.
- I don’t need a sexual relationship, don’t want affection, I’m not interested in all of that (can’t give it either), I just
want us to be friends and do things together with the kids.
Latest statement:
- It’s like I’m stuck in a tunnel and slowly it’s getting better but I’m definitely not there yet
That is the time when I also say contradictory things. 😊
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that my emotions are not under control at that time, I’m fully detached and I always stay very calm but I sometimes, unwillingly, want to influence the process, although I know I can’t…
If he says things like I just want to be friends I say this is not enough for me, that I want more in a relationship and I will take some distance. (then I don’t…)
He sent a message when he left yesterday to thank me for always being there for him, that he knows it is not easy for me and therefore he wants to express his respect and admiration.
I answered that I’m very thankful for those nice words, that it is indeed not always easy but that I’m there for him since he needs somebody who shows understanding and is there for him in difficult times.
Can I be more contradictory…😊
Hi Peacetoday,
My H definitely know that the problems lies within him since his first awakening although he bounced back several times until he finally broke with OW.
Since that time he stopped projecting the problem on me.
The biggest issue is that he doesn't want to go to a qualified therapist since he had a really bad experience with one when he was a teenager. Due to several trauma's he has been to a therapist from the age of 8 until he was 12 and then another therapist when he was 18 but that was not good at all and he swore he would never go again.
That is why he says he has to do it on his own, although he also opens up to his stepfather lately. I don't push anymore. Did this in the past and didn't work at all.
Small update of the last 2 weeks.
So he is abroad again and the 1st week he was back there was a very strange week.
His grandmother and mother both fell ill and were diagnosed with COVID. Since his mother is single and was not allowed outside, I made the necessary arrangements to provide her with food and drink.
He really appreciated this. He also felt very guilty that he wasn't here to help.
Suddenly I got a message in the evening, for the first time in 20 months, that he misses us all very much (normally he says this sometimes about the children, now it was the first time that he included me as well) I answered very briefly that we missed him too.
That same evening, he also called his father (biological) asking for forgiveness for all the lies he told him the past years.
He also said that one day he hopes they can be best friends again, as they have always been in the past.
After a few days the atmosphere turned again and slid completely back into the ME mode. This took about 4 days.
From then on a very normal man who is concerned, sends a few messages every day, asks if I have everything I need, etc.
I have the impression that the pendulum moments are still present but that he starts to act more and more in a normal way. He also starts skype sessions with other relatives.
The moments when I see "a normal man" last longer and longer.
Maybe I see it too positively, but I am simply set up that way :), and unfortunately I cannot and do not want to change myself in that area.
Next week it's Holiday and me and the kids are going on a hiking trip with our best friends. Looking forward to that. The children don't talk about anything else anymore.
Take care!
Crazy week again…H came home all week.
It was the most intense and emotional week I have seen with him so far. One day incredibly friendly and the man I used to know, the next cold and absent, then depressed and crying again, the next day happy and smiling, few hours later suddenly his 16-year-old self comes at the surface (and over and over again). How can a person have so much emotions in 1 week? It really is a mystery to me and I assume for all of us...
The weird thing is that I was very emotional myself for 1 year, and now it seems like the tables have turned. I can keep very calm about the whole fact, although I am glad that this is only for 1 week because this would not be maintainable for the children. It even went to the point where we were watching a movie about schizophrenia one night and 2 of the kids came to me afterwards and told me it was exactly their dad but to a lesser extent?
There have been very open conversations again, but as I mentioned in the past, it is only possible if he has had a drink. I have now also asked him how it possible that he only talks openly when the brakes are loose after a drink and he told me that it just doesn't work, that there is a barrier and that the debt is too great to talk about it when he's completely sober. I have clearly asked him to work on this and to try to drink less and he validated my concerns (let's see the actions in the near future...) I also try to get into the conversations more and more and feel strong enough to ask things that I would never have dared before, even when they are things I would rather not hear. He also no longer shies away from questions.
He was affectionate again for the first time in a long time, is this a certain fear he has of losing me? I don't know.
He was very physical at times, and we have ML a few times again. Is this good? Probably not, but I didn't feel like I wanted to stop this as it felt really good to me. I am 100% sure that there has not been OW in the picture for 10 months now. As I have already said, I have really reached the point where I have completely disconnected from him emotionally. The strange thing is that I can maintain this even after physical contact and know that there is absolutely no certainty that we will get out of this together.
I already live a long way in the moment itself, do not look ahead and maybe that's why I can have peace with this?
He also did take the initiative himself and asked if we would come over to the country where he currently works to spend the holidays with him. I have told him that this is OK and the children are very enthusiastic but I have told them that their father is not there yet, this to save them from disappointment if he does not put the word into action.
I let him arrange everything, do not think it is up to me as I don't want to push.
There is one detail I would really like to share with you that he specifically said as I would like to ask if this can mean anything. I do know that in principle I can only believe half of what they say, so can you please share your thoughts?
He told me that for a long time he thought he wanted a divorce (never before has he used this word during the entire crisis but apparently was in his head for a long time?) and that he has therefore accepted the job abroad to make a lot of money as he knows he has to pay a lot to me. Then he said his feelings are shifting slowly the last 2 months and that he no longer wants this. He wants to feel again and love me like he used to, he really wants to work on this. I then asked him if this meant that he might want to gradually rebuild thr relationship, his anwser was that he didn't know but wanted to try. I have not gone into it further.
I know one thing for sure, he is far from being out of the crisis but maybe all of the above means something...
@Job, one of the stories I have read about reconnection and touch and gos states it would be good to read the stories of NGU, DebM and JeanS but I can't find these.
Is it possible to post the links. I would really love to read this.
Thanks in advance.
Good Morning Eagle
Oh my, I totally missed your post. Sorry.
As I understand it correctly you don’t have any contact anymore with your XW, nor the children?
I can’t imagine what this must do to you, and to them…
XW severed ties with me; pretty harshly and firmly. As if a MLCer would do different.
A person in an emotional crisis is struggling deeply with all kinds of demons. One particular is depression. Deep and dark. They usually speak in negatives and absolutes.
XW’s running included running from her children as well. He big surprise speech at Thanksgiving supper included “I’m leaving. DnJ, you get the house, the contents, and the children. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.” My memories of the next few hours and days is a bit hazy and mixed up. I, and everyone seated around the table, were in a state of shock. From eye witness accounts, and there were seven (nine total including me and XW), I immediately turned white as a sheet. My blood pressure probably dropped like a stone, which starved my brain for oxygen. I have recollection of XW and I talking in the living room, but with background and items that don’t exist in my house. Some cannot exist in my house they’re too big.
My mind was flaying away, trying to rationalize what just happened. I mean the “impossible” just occurred. I consider very few things impossible, I see the possibilities everywhere. Always have. I believed it was impossible for XW to do what she did. I had absolute faith in her. So this was a fundamental break for me.
I’ve got these weird little memories tied to those strange conversations with a woman who, to my at the time viewpoint, suddenly changed and became a completely different person. One such memory, while I am sitting on the couch with XW sitting four feet away from me on the foot stool, listening to her willingness to throw her kids away for a chance to finally be happy, there is beside me, in front of the TV, a huge green intake duct with a fan spinning within it. There are wear marks where the fan blade has rubbed against the shroud, scrapping the green paint down to the shinny silver metal.
Another is while discussing and pleading for marriage counselling, I looked at the wall behind me to the left. On this wall were three pictures, silhouettes of the kids in pairs, the two oldest and the two youngest, and W and I. (I’ve since removed the picture of her and I). Anyhow, that night there is, was, an award, a plaque hanging on the wall instead of the pictures. Lol
I know these memory, and I would say, are not real. But that’s the funny thing, they are real. They are real memories. So that begs what is reality? Of course, I realize this. And for me reality has always been something affirmed with feedback. I could imagine and pretend I am a millionaire, even believe it. But feedback from the bank and the bills would snap me back to “reality” pretty quick. Haha. And for these memories, the memory is valid, it’s even true, and real; just cannot be affirmed and therefore an illusion from a stunned shocked oxygen starved mind struggling to grasp what the h3ll just happened.
With this in mind it is easy to see how someone in a crisis could fall down the rabbit hole and believe their new “reality”. And with running from such pain, they would ignore and fight against non-affirming feedback. MLCer’s will expend tremendous energies maintaining their fantasy realities. They must. They absolutely have too. For they are so consumed and in crisis that rational feedback cannot register. They are emotional and driving by their irrational internal forces. Coping skills are not well developed in these troubled emotional immature souls.
Kind of got off topic didn’t I?
My kids and I are very close. We visit and talk quite a bit.
XW and the kids seldom see each other or converse. And XW doesn’t speak to me. I was thrown away, and divorced in two months after BD. Her and I have spoken at the graduation of my youngest son and the graduation of my daughter. There hasn’t been a text or call from her for almost three years now.
My kids are doing great. XW/Mom is a stranger to them. That is completely accurate. Mom turned into XW; the opposite of who she was. She is a stranger to all of us. She doesn’t share much about her life. Shows little interest or understanding in the kids’ lives. They are all university students and she is stuck in a few personalities.
Her usual personality is from around when she was 18. I recognize and remember her mannerisms and behaviours from back then. They are just more brash and bold. Rub it in your face kind of thing.
When XW gets agitated, pushed, or otherwise held emotionally accountable she regressed to a girl of about 13. And with further pressure she becomes a young girl of seven. OMG. It is incredible to witness such a thing. To be speaking to someone and they “shift” mid-sentence.
These shifts have been witnessed by my best friend and my children. One such time, within weeks of her BD, her and I were negotiating at the kitchen table. The 18 year old brash bold brat was smugly exercising her (believed) superior status and position in life. I challenged her on her view of never loving me. And she started to deny and mid-sentence became herself. The women, W. Her eyes sparkled, her face immediately became flush with colour, and her tone of speech changed. Me and BF were stunned at such a thing. She spoke about how we do love each other. Started another sentence, and morphed back to that brat. Her eyes turned gray, skin darkened, and she picked up right where she left off on that same sentence 30 seconds before. Very spooky, at the time, not so much now.
I and S22 have spoken to the 7 year old. Oh my, that is a weird thing. She looks like my wife, sounds like her (more or less), but she is seven! This girl can’t do math. Converses like a seven year old. Uses language like a small child. It was so sad to see such a broken mind. This particular personality only has been seen a few times, and not in years now. Maybe that’s a good thing, maybe it’s not. I don’t know.
In ways I have been extremely lucky, and not just financially. My parents and my children all were witness to her surprise BD and her moving in with OM three hours later. Man, what a night that was! If they hadn’t seen this, they would never have believed it. This is so out there.
My kids have seen their Mom’s troubled soul. The woman before them is not their Mom. It’s her body, but an alien lives inside, with Mom possible trapped.
We all have compassion for her. And indifference. We have forgiven her. My children following my lead and example. Asking questions and getting clear honest answers from me.
It was incredible painful and difficult. I hurt terribly. So much was compressed into such a short timeframe. I would not wish this upon anyone. However, I have been extremely lucky and blessed. It has been an incredible opportunity, one few people (thankfully) ever experience. One plays the hand they’re dealt.
Your H, from your accounts, is exiting the tunnel. He pendulums back and forth, as one would suspect he would. He has plenty to face, and not just his recent behaviours of the past few years, the original pain and torment of his youth must also be faced, reconciled, and accepted within.
You see this happening. You see H, the man, and then you see him disappear again. Perfectly fine. Don’t fret and don’t push. H needs to feel safe. He is very much still in crisis and rather frail emotionally. He is at times outside his tunnel. A tunnel which hid him, confused him, kept him in the dark from his own past and the consequences of his actions, and really importantly protected him from admonishment and retribution. Tunnel walls protect as well as trap.
H needs to have a safe place to land. Let him lead the pace. His eye are adjusting to the bright light outside the tunnel. Let that light be you.
Don’t worry when he scamper back in. Such a light is hard to look at when you’ve been in the dark for so long. Have faith and continue moving forward. Peaceful, gentle, compassionate, and forgiving. The scared squirrel is looking about; no sudden movements my friend.
I think you know this already. I’m just encouraging and reinforcing your example. Things will move slow and you may wonder and want to push it along. Dig deep for patience. Really be patient. H’s path is about him, and must happen at his pace.
The last week’s many flips between H and 16 year old H are a good sign. When they start going into the tunnel, way before BD, they are being driven by forces they cannot understand. Torments from their past, buried a long time ago, are surfacing and demand recognition. This internal pressure drags them back to that time, and then lets go. Back and forth this tug of war happens. The person doesn’t understand and compartmentalizes it. Remember they have poor coping skills and are emotional stunted and will not seek help. For if they could, they would not be in a crisis.
Bomb drop happens well after this has started. Many many months of compartmental living has occurred by that point. They have suffered silently and hidden from the world. They blame us for not recognizing what they are going through. And blame us as the cause of what they are going through.
Bomb drop, is when everything reached such a level that it explodes within them. They destroy their life trying to run from all the wrong and pain they feel. We seldom see the preceding events to BD as they happen. Looking back we usually can see some signs.
Exiting the tunnel is the opposite of those events that lead to BD. The MLCer is experiencing two (or more) lives again. They are timid, ashamed, scared, fearful, guilty, feel regret and remorse, confused, and so on. One can see how any extra pressure will put them over edge and thrown them back into the darkness of their tunnel.
Keep conversations non-judgemental and non-threatening. The MLCer hates themselves. As they peek out they are seeing the damage they caused, and the hurt and suffering from their hand. They do not need further punishment, for they are punishing themselves enough. They will feel like a monster. They need compassion, forgiveness, and a beacon back to reality.
That is not to say they get away scott-free. No, there is penance and things to atone for. Question to be answered, and discussions to be had. However those must be put on hold until the MLCer is well beyond the tunnel’s exit.
Yes, like everything else along the LBS’ path, this is unfair. We need to be the bigger person and do more of the heavy lifting - still. In time H will be more and more comfortable and able to discuss with you. Dig for patience.
Let H lead the conversations. For the most part talk about topics he brings up and when he brings them up. Of course you can further a discussion and ask direct questions as well. Remember your goal in all this, and that the time line is beyond your control. If H pulls back, that’s fine, drop the subject. It is him following you, not you pushing him.
He was affectionate again for the first time in a long time, is this a certain fear he has of losing me? I don't know.
He was very physical at times, and we have ML a few times again. Is this good? Probably not, but I didn't feel like I wanted to stop this as it felt really good to me. I am 100% sure that there has not been OW in the picture for 10 months now.
It is quite possible and probably that H has felt and feels like what it is to lose you. That is a very good thing.
You being sure OW is out of the picture is also a very good thing.
ML, is also a good thing. Really, it is. However, do not assign more emotional meaning to it for H than it is. What I mean is keep your expectations really low. I’m sure H enjoyed it as well. That is a good thing. It a binding thing. A healing thing. Safe, comfortable.
H will have emotions well up inside. All kinds of feelings; those previously mentioned bad ones and some good one as well. It is going to take time for him to sort through them and to acknowledge and show them. He will, and does, feel towards you. It comes out in fits and spurts right now; it takes months for the MLCer to settle and feel comfortable within their own skin.
During this time, yes ML. There is no OW. Date, conserve, frolic, cry, hug, and so on. It is a strange path, much like the one you’ve been walking already. It will have twists and turns, backslides, and emotions. You are standing and know your headings, follow them, believe them.
There is one detail I would really like to share with you that he specifically said as I would like to ask if this can mean anything. I do know that in principle I can only believe half of what they say, so can you please share your thoughts?
He told me that for a long time he thought he wanted a divorce (never before has he used this word during the entire crisis but apparently was in his head for a long time?) and that he has therefore accepted the job abroad to make a lot of money as he knows he has to pay a lot to me. Then he said his feelings are shifting slowly the last 2 months and that he no longer wants this. He wants to feel again and love me like he used to, he really wants to work on this. I then asked him if this meant that he might want to gradually rebuild thr relationship, his anwser was that he didn't know but wanted to try. I have not gone into it further.
My thoughts:
Acknowledge and validate H’s feeling and the change over the last two months. Tell him you appreciate him sharing his feelings with you. Accept his feelings as his actions do seem to match up.
However, accuracy. H’s feelings are not slowly shifting, IMHO. It is better than that. H’s beliefs are shifting. Feeling change quickly. Beliefs are slowly to change - like over two months. That is very encouraging.
Reinforce his good beliefs, feelings, and behaviours. Ignore the poor ones, for he will test you as well to ensure you are authentic. He will do this mostly unintentionally and unrecognized by himself. He needs you to be stable through this; which you are.
Do not attempt to explain that his beliefs are what are changing, you definitely do not want an argument. It is fine to say feelings. You know different and deeper than he does at the moment. This realization is for you. His realization will come differently.
To further encourage, H no longer wants a divorce. He doesn’t know for sure but he wants to try to rebuild. That would be the expected way back from someone who has done what he has done. Scared squirrel. Scared and opening up. Very nice to see.
I do agree H is outwardly showing movement. For a long time all movement of the MLCer is internal and hidden from the LBS. This gives the impression that they are stuck. Now, some do get stuck, and some are moving unseen. It looks like H was one of the latter.
My suggestion, beyond all that I posted
, keep doing what you’re doing. ML, go on that vacation, have family time, rebuilt and reinforce good times, lead by example. Have healthy boundaries when needed and forgive. Don’t sweat the small stuff, in five years, things that are huge right now will not even matter, keep it in perspective.
You are doing really well. Remain patient.
D
Unfortunately I'm back with much less positive news...
I urgently need your advice.
We went, together with the children, to the country where he currently works and lives during the Christmas Holidays.
It was horrible. I will not go into detail as my message will be way too long. I sincerly thought he was slowly on his way back but he went deeply back into the tunnel.
Reason...99% sure OW2 has come up, I guess since about 1 month.
On the 26th he adviced me we should have a divorce, on the 31th of December I saw conversations on his phone with a new women, somebody who also lives in that country...I was pretty devasted. Asked him to be honest with me but he fully denies he has a relationship with her. It is just somebody who listens to him and understands him. Nothing more...but he did mention it could be more in the future.
I immediately took my distance and said that we would go forward with the divorce now if that is what he wanted. That is has been two years now and if OW2 was involved we could not proceed like that anymore.
Blaming, spewing, etc, all was back. It was like we went back in time to about 1 year ago...
On the 2nd of January we flew back and he said he would leave me alone for a bit now to progress everything and to give me some time to start arranging the divorce.
Today I received a nice message if he could call me. I told him, yes, no problem and so he did.
From the first tone the blaming started again. Why I didn't inform him about how our return flight went, how the children were doing , if I had contact with his family and my family and if I told them about the divorce etc. I stayed calm and told him that we had an agreement to leave each other alone for while to process everything and that if he wanted to know how the children were and the family, that he needed to get in touch with them directly and not through me.
He hung up the phone and send me several messages now that this is not the normal way of doing, that we need to talk about everything together, that he will contact a lawyer now and this lawyer will contact me about expenses of joint accounts, mutual consent before certain expenses may be made, custody arrangement, alimony,...
He completely lost it. I have not answered to these messages and immediately changed all my passwords, took statements of our bank accounts. What else do I need to do?
I'm devasted, what is going on? Is this because he feels he is losing control over me?
Thank you for your advice
Hello Eagle
I’m sorry for the turn your situation has taken. (((Hugs)))
I'm devasted, what is going on? Is this because he feels he is losing control over me?
Nope. It’s going on because he feels he is losing control over himself.
His behaviour has nothing to do with you. As you stated - He completely lost it.
I immediately took my distance and said that we would go forward with the divorce now if that is what he wanted. That is has been two years now and if OW2 was involved we could not proceed like that anymore.
Good for you distancing yourself from him. Keep that up.
... he said he would leave me alone for a bit now to progress everything and to give me some time to start arranging the divorce.
Of course he did.
He wants you to do the divorce. For you to be the bad guy.
Nope. Let him do the heavy lifting. Let him own his divorce.
He hung up the phone and send me several messages now that this is not the normal way of doing, that we need to talk about everything together, that he will contact a lawyer now and this lawyer will contact me about expenses of joint accounts, mutual consent before certain expenses may be made, custody arrangement, alimony,...
When they are riding their high from running and dropping the bomb, they do feel rather in control and powerful. His assertion that “this is not the normal way of doing things” is rather telling.
He has obviously looked somewhat into divorce, and only in the basic concepts and how it positively affects himself. You know, his fantasy good ideas that he thinks will come from it.
The smugness of a MLCer is interesting as well. Suddenly they are wise and experts in divorce and relationships and such. Lol
And, as predictable as ever, as soon as things don’t go his way - threaten. MLCer’s will use, and misuse, the legal system to their own full advantage.
I have not answered to these messages and immediately changed all my passwords, took statements of our bank accounts. What else do I need to do?
First, breathe.
No one ever got divorced in a day. It takes time. You got some breathing room.
Next. Good on you for changing the passwords and getting your bank statements. There is also no need to answer H’s messages. He didn’t really ask anything. He is only looking for a fight to further his justifications. He stated that he going to speak through his lawyer. Ok, let him.
Where to go from here:
Ensure you financial security and protection.
Speak to a lawyer and find out what your rights are. Learn what can be negotiated and what cannot. Ask any questions you have. You are just gathering information and planning a strategy at this point. Treat this as a business deal gone bad.
Do not tell H anything of what you learn from your lawyer. You do not share your playbook with the other side.
Remove half of the funds from all joint accounts and deposit into your own account. Speak with L about this first. And keep good clear records of everything.
That can be its own statement - keep good records.
Ensure all the household bills are in your’s or both names.
Get your own credit card. Remove yourself from the joint one. That probably cannot happen, since it is joint. Pay off the joint card and then cancel it. H can get his own credit card(s) in his own name. (However, in some locales the individual’s debts are still considered martial. Find out from the L what you are responsible for and what you aren’t.)
Keep breathing. Stay calm. (Post - it helps. Lots of good caring people with much hard earned wisdom around here.)
With the business side being looked into, do your work on the emotional side.
I am figuring you are not wanting a divorce. Not pushing for a divorce. That’s good. Keep standing. Stand for you.
Go dark or dim with H.
GAL. Live. Enjoy.
No more cake eating for H! (There is OW2 in the picture.)
Give H plenty of space and time.
Focus on you and your kids.
The path of the LBS is two parts - business and emotions/beliefs. Do not make decisions on either one based upon emotions; use reason, logic, and your values.
Realize you are the most important person in this equation. All the advice is for you, and your health and well-being.
You are doing fine. Keep moving forward.
D
((Eagle)))
You are in a terrified panic that I know very well, having been in the same panic many times -- and still getting it every time I see a message from H or his lawyer or the court. I know how to wrestle with it now but it's not easy.
Just remember, H already did all the things you are scared of. Now you are just walking through the ashes of a fire he already set. You lived through the fire, and you got out of the burning house safely. H is still in there, fiddling as Rome burns.
He can threaten many things, but he can't do many of them. He has to get a judge to agree with the things he wants to make happen. And you'll never be able to figure out why he does/says what he does/says so don't even try!
And you don't have to do anything that he asks if you think it's wrong.
And you sure as heck don't have to figure out anything about a divorce! It's his divorce! But you do have to protect yourself and your kids and your share of the moolah. You do have to be true to the good values that you had and have. You do have to fight the temptation to be confused when he tries to confuse you and you do have to fight against despair or bitterness.
Separate all finances and protect your share. No emotion, no worrying about what he will think of you, just take your half wherever you can and protect whatever you can. There is a reason everyone here says that over and over. I am living proof. I didn't want to do anything that seemed divorce-ish so I left everything joint. And now everything is on my shoulders, everything is a court battle, an IRS battle, a bank battle, a child support battle. Because I thought I was respecting the marriage by not protecting me and my kids financially. You respect the marriage precisely by protecting all that you built as part of that marriage.
I know what DnJ is saying, and I agree with it all but I do also believe that your H does want to keep controlling you. He will keep looking for ways to do it, and if he perceives he is not controlling you, it will make him crazy. But it will also make him crazy when he does feel that he is controlling you, so just put it all out of your mind and try to focus on controlling yourself! : ) Also doing everything you can with all your best gifts/powers and then letting God control the rest.
Women who survive abuse are scared all the time and half the time we don't know why. We frantically call our friends, our lawyers, we frantically post here. And everyone tells us to detach or move on or whatever, and no one seems to understand that we are so scared we can't think straight.
A long time back I finally called the domestic violence center in my city. At that meeting, I couldn't stop crying and I kept saying, "I don't know why I am so scared. He never hit me." They gave me this chart about abuse to help me understand why I was so scared. I wrote down each thing he had done that was on that list. I'll paste it here. It doesn't even address the adultery we all experienced. Maybe you'll recognize something from my list in your own sitch and it will help you understand why your response gets visceral.
1. Threatening to leave her
2. Making her afraid
3. Putting her down
4. Taking her money
5. Making her feel bad about herself
6. Calling her names
7. Making her think she’s crazy
8. Playing mind games
9. Humiliating her
10. Making her feel guilty
11. Treating her like a servant
12. Making her feel guilty about the children
13. Using the children to relay messages
14. Threatening to take the children away
15. Making light of the abuse and not taking her concerns about it seriously
16. Saying the abuse didn’t happen
17. Shifting responsibility for abusive behavior
18. Saying she caused abusive behavior
DnJ: many thanks for your advice. Below I have answered some of your advices.
Gerda: thank you so much for answering my thread. This means a lot to me. In regards to the chart you noted…at least 15 of the 18 points on the list I unfortunately can highlight as well.
The thing is…I also took an important decision myself. I stood by his side for 2 years and I always told myself I would stand if I saw improvement and if the lying would stop, which he did for about 10 months. But since I know OW2 is involved and the lying and spewing started all over again something knacked inside of me.
I too want a divorce now. I want to pick up live again, and be happy with my children. I don’t want him to drag us anymore into his miserable life.
As I read many times, it is not because you are divorced, you quite standing in a certain way. I do want to stand, and when he ever comes to his senses, I want to be there for him, depending off course how long the process takes and how I moved on. But at least I will be free from the blaming, spewing, controlling because once divorced he cannot control me anymore. Everything will be split.
Is this a bad thing, that I want to do the arrangements for the divorce, this way I have the feeling to have more control?
I have a lot of luck to live in a country where the rights of couples who want to divorce are very straightforward for people who don’t have a marital contract which we don’t. All the belongings we have is joint so everything has to be split in half, no question about that. This is the law. So he can’t take huge amounts of money from the joint accounts without my agreement. This counts of course from both sides. Since months he is not taking any money anymore since he has his salary which is paid in the other country. (which is also half mine once we divorce)
Also, since I arranged al the financials in the past all the household bills are in my name.
I have sent him an e-mail this morning, this for the last time. I have clearly mentioned I too want this and I want this to happen in a clean way, without fights, blaming etc. That he must do this for the children and for the past 17 years of good marriage (minus 2 which I didn’t mention…). I also mentioned that as of now for the day to day things he needs to contact our children himself, not through me anymore. He immediately made a WhatsApp group with him and our 3 boys which is a good thing and apparently understood the message…question is….for how long.
I will now dim as per your advice DnJ. As long as I don’t have a lot of contact with him I’m doing just fine. Luckily he lives far away which is in my opinion a good thing now.
I also would like to share something else with all of you.
MLC also happened to my H's uncle many years ago. He had OW1, then OW2 which he married.
He let his his ex. wife and his two children go through hell. Didn't want to pay anything for them (but had to following court law), He dropped his whole family, including parents, children, brothers, sisters etc.
Last Sunday, after 18 years, he stood in front of an empty appartment, his mothers', not knowing she just moved into a retirement home, so he called his brother to know where she was and he visited her. He also got in touch with his 2 daughters yesterday and stated he will divorce OW2. So after 18 years he finally woke up...
My H knows about this since his mother shared all of this in the family WhatsApp. I wonder if that would do something to him since he always mentioned in good days he would never act like his uncle did and in the bad days he threatened to act the same...
Good Morning Eagle
Is this a bad thing, that I want to do the arrangements for the divorce, this way I have the feeling to have more control?
There is nothing wrong or bad about controlling what you can control.
One knows when they are ready for divorce. It is only a piece of paper, a split of assets, the business side of the equation. It’s good to take control of your side to ensure your financial security and mental/emotional health.
That paper, that agreement, does not control your heart. You can stand while divorced. And you’re right, one quits standing in a certain way, and stands more for their own values and self.
I also live in a place where the divorce laws are straightforward. That is the default, the law stated 50/50 split, the alimony based upon salaries, the custody of children. However, most rights and assets can be negotiated and waived if the parties agree. My XW for example demanded that I have sole custody of the children, keep the house, cars, and assets, and my full pension; she took a lump sum payment. I was actually against all of that, like Gerda said, trying to do right by my marriage vows and beliefs.
However, I did listen to those here, and my lawyer, and my good friends and family. I agreed to her separation agreement. I knew it was a really good deal, but I didn’t want it. Keep your emotions out of the business at hand.
You can and will grieve later.
A tip on negotiating, listen to what H is proposing. Let H feel like it is his idea. MLCers are mixed up and confused. They will flip flop on arrangements all the time. If the arrangement comes from them, or they feel like it has come from them, it has a better chance of sticking than if it comes from you. Consider whatever H may propose; you’d be surprised at what some people are willing to throw away as they run off to their fantasy. And as odd as those proposals seem to you and us rational folks, agreeing to their demands grease the wheels. My separation was complete in 60 days after BD. Of course I had a high energy vanishing runner on my hands. I wonder when she will tire.
Your uncle’s story is interesting and sad. It seems he may have finally tired himself out and is winding down from running. It’s very sad, one cannot run from themselves. Wow, 18 years.
Stay strong girl.
D
A tip on negotiating, listen to what H is proposing. Let H feel like it is his idea. MLCers are mixed up and confused. They will flip flop on arrangements all the time. If the arrangement comes from them, or they feel like it has come from them, it has a better chance of sticking than if it comes from you. Consider whatever H may propose; you’d be surprised at what some people are willing to throw away as they run off to their fantasy. And as odd as those proposals seem to you and us rational folks, agreeing to their demands grease the wheels. My separation was complete in 60 days after BD. Of course I had a high energy vanishing runner on my hands. I wonder when she will tire.
Thank you for this advice. I haven't looked yet in that perspective and you are so right.
Whenever I'm friendly and detached his guilt comes to surface and then he says I can have all of it,
if I confront him with any of the mistakes he made he gets angry and threatens to take everything from me.
(which of course he can't)
Good Morning Eagle
Stay friendly and detached. Monetary advantages aside; the rewards/blessings for doing so are invaluable.
His guilt is consuming him. Typically a better deal can be struck when their guilt is pressuring them.
Letting them do the heavy lifting can come in many forms. My then W told me what she wanted. I let her decide and craft her deal. She started with me having everything - kids, house, money, cars, etc... With a bit of back and forth between me and my L, and me and W, the first draft included a lump sum payment to her and the waiving of her rights to things. Her lawyer, of course, advised her against such a thing.
Then time set in, as her lawyer made her see two separate financial planners/counsellors. She got more and more frustrated, wanting that quick divorce. I stayed friendly - in truth I was heartbroken and completely un-detached. But, she had moved out and moved on the night of BD. The second draft was more money, an amount she again proposed (its pretty telling if you turn down your own proposal so let them do the heavy lifting). My L drafted it and sent it to her L. She mulled it over a few days and signed, against her L’s advice. He even made her sign a waiver that she was going against his advice. She also had OM with her during these meetings with her L. I’m pretty sure OM’s advice/counsel was not that valuable.
The only item that I snuck in (well snuck out really) - I removed W’s stipulation that I would formally charge her with adultery. She actually had that stated in her counter proposal. She wanted to plead guilt to adultery, in court, charged under the law. Strange. And she wasn’t pleased after she found out, and all was signed.
The heavy lifting, the separation, was her’s. I just didn’t stand in her way. It’s business. It was a good deal. So I signed the dotted line.
D
DnJ, this must have been such a hard time. I don't think I will find so much strength to not show my feelings to him.
Since the e-mail I didn't hear from him for a few days.
Until last Friday night. He called his family to tell them he wants a divorce.
That I still mean the world to him, "she is my God" and he still loves me but he can't find it in his heart anymore to give me what I want. (a proper marriage)
He wants me to move on with my life since he doesn't love me anymore the way he did.
He started drinking the moment he started calling everybody. As I mentioned he can only talk when he drinks since the start of his MLC. First he called his Mother (relationship has never been good with her), then his Stepfather, Father, Brother and last but not least my Parents.
He all told them the same story, although to my parents he mentioned he doesn't want a divorce, he wants to be my friend and continu to be married as friends but he sees this is hurting me too much (and this is not what I want) so that is why he asked for a divorce so I can move on with my live. He even mentioned (only to my parents) he can't have S with me anymore...
He also want this to happen in a proper way...his will not act difficult...(will see)
As from the moment it was his fathers turn he started to get drunk, with his brother he was crying and with my parents he told a different story. Seems the booze still controls his feelings heavily.
He then called me, completely wasted, don't even want to mention what he said since nothing of sense came out of him. He even fell asleep whilst on the phone.
I really want to go dark on him so I called him the next morning to tell him the following:
Yesterday evening you called me again in a drunken state. I understand that what you did (calling everybody) was very hard for you but you need to understand that since you've told me you want a divorce something changed inside of me and I now want proceed as well. I need to rebuild a full, happy life again with the children. Since I still love you I need time for my own now to process everything, I can not be your friend anymore. I can't be the shoulder to cry on. So if you call, I won't pick up the phone anymore. If there is an emergency let me know in a different way.
In regards to the divorce, once I have the home evaluation report, I will send it to you and you can make a proposition for the financial arrangements. He didn't say much, only yes and I understand in a very submissive way??
I have never had this with him.
Yesterday evening he called one of the kids, drunk again. Seems he will not call me anymore now, but them. He asked what they were doing. S13 was not happy about this.
On Sunday we always skype together normally. I told him I will not participate anymore, so for the first time it will be only him and the children, I will go for a walk I think. They are all nervous as they think he will be drunk again. I sincerely hope for them he is not, but not my responsibility anymore to control this. I will be there for them afterwards if something hasn't gone in the right way.
Have a nice Sunday.
Good Morning Eagle
H has certainly let the cat out of the bag. His telling everyone that you are still a great woman, mean the world to him, and that he cannot find it in his heart to be the proper husband and live the proper marriage - is most likely pretty close to the actual truth.
H’s confusion is right there, out in the open. He is an emotional wreck. He has shown everyone. It is also a justification for his actions.
H’s inability to love you, as he feels and knows you deserve, stems from his long ago trauma(s). He feels himself unlovable and therefore cannot love anyone else
and knows it should be different. Deep down inside himself he has no answers; just pain, torment, and misery. And so he runs from himself.
You, the kids, family, and friends, all get hurt. A MLCer needs to, and has to, run. They are driven to it. They must escape. And those in the way do get mowed down.
H’s path is not about you, or the boys. It is about him. Do not forget that. Even though at times it feels like it is about us, the LBS. His path was started long ago, and he needs to complete it.
To that end, H needs to hit rock bottom before he can realize the complete mess he is in. Before he will commit to actual change, commit to actual growth and helpful action. Until then it is running. Interestingly, rock bottom is where and when one decides it is.
It’s similar for the LBS, we descend for a while, spiralling, dizzy with pain and sorrow and hurt. Eventually we level out, find our bearings, choose headings/beliefs, and move forward with health and happiness.
I agree with your going dark with H.
You stated your intentions very clearly. And they meshed well with his current feelings of his inability to be a proper husband. In others words, you validated his feelings and emotionally state, and got your view cross as well. Good job.
I don't think I will find so much strength to not show my feelings to him.
You just did!
Your mind is always listening. When you use language like “I don’t think I’ll ever..., I don’t believe I can...”, your mind will make that the reality.
You just demonstrated your strength and compassion - do not sell yourself short. Especially to yourself. You can, and will, do great things. Believe that!
I can not be your friend anymore. I can't be the shoulder to cry on. So if you call, I won't pick up the phone anymore. If there is an emergency let me know in a different way.
Accuracy is very important. One requires to accurately see what they are doing, what they are feeling/believing/ thinking so they can make proper decisions, choices, and changes. If one is basing decisions upon inaccurate data, then the likelihood of positive wanted outcomes decreases significantly.
You are making a choice. You are choosing a strong emotionally healthy path. Be accurate in that.
I can will not be your friend anymore. I can't won’t be the shoulder to cry on.
This is a choice, which means you control it. Which means you will be able to achieve it.
“Can’t” places this out of your control. “Will/won’t” is conviction, is formidable choice.
The wording you used to H isn’t as important as the wording you use in your head.
Do decide how H should contact you in case of an emergency. A “different way” is rather vague. And in truth, a phone call is the method to be used in an emergency. You might consider walking that back a bit.
In regards to the divorce, once I have the home evaluation report, I will send it to you and you can make a proposition for the financial arrangements. He didn't say much, only yes and I understand in a very submissive way??
Good for you. Direct and letting him do the heavy lifting with crafting his proposal. Do be open to consider what he comes back with, and go from there.
As for submissive. Yep. H is a mess. Guilty, hurt, unable to love, lost, sad, and depressed.
H’s drinking is obvious in its tie to his feelings. He drinks to escape, and to feel something. He is dead inside, a hollow man, a shell. MLC is a terrible thing.
Treated lightly when negotiating with him.
I do empathize with your reasons for deciding to no longer participate in the Sunday family Skype call. Give your boys some guidance on what to do, when Dad is drunk or things do not go well.
S13 is understandably not happy about the state of things with Dad. He will need to express his feelings, which unfortunately are most likely going to come out aimed at you - the strong stable parent. Have faith, it doesn’t last forever, and the kids do grow out of it. Be their beacon.
And I will answer your direct question on my thread.
Have a great Sunday.
D
Oh Eagle, I'm so sorry you are going through this. You have had some amazing advice so far and from here it sounds like you are choosing what is best for you and your kids.
My XH is currently in replay (I think). It's just bizarre to watch. One thing I had to do that wasn't great at the time, but I'm glad I did - was to talk to my older son (17) at the time, and let him know that he had agency. He could choose boundaries with his dad and myself in what he was comfortable with. His dad was drink driving. I let S17 know that it was up to him to get another ride, or drive,
You might consider al-anon if it's available in your area (or zoom etc). Your kids would benefit from knowing that they don't have to be available for their dad when he is drunk. That's so hard for them to navigate, that's why I suggest a support group for kids with alcoholic parents.
Sometimes the kids don't know what they are free to not put up with.
Eagle, this is amazing amazing! You handled it so well and I am very excited for the peace you are going to start feeling. Give it time, you will see how detached going dark can help you to be. I am happy for you!
(I know it seems like a dark time to say I am happy for you. But in the crazy world of MLC, I am happy for you because you are starting to see clearly and be able to act on it.)
You are now doing this --
Those who hope... will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.
I don't know if that's why you picked the name Eagle or if you are a faith person, but that's what I thought of right away when I read this post.
DnJ, thanks for you insights on my recent actions toward my H.
97Hope, thank you for your message. For a long time I thought my husband had left the replay stage (he stopped lying to me, got rid of OW1, really depressed etc.) but apparently he'd got back in and now he's deep in it again.
I have always told myself that once this happened again this would be the time to free myself and our children from his crisis as the pain is too huge. That is what I'm doing now.
I have been talking to the children several times. I let them validate their feelings towards him and I always state that they have a choice in how far they are willing to put with his insanity and drinking behavior. They now sometimes tell him to drink less, when they are around. Luckily they are not confronted often, only when he is in the country or on the phone.
Gerda, thanks for your kind words and many thanks for the poetry. I have chosen the name Eagle since from I was a littIe girl I always said that if I had a choice I would become an Eagle in my next life. LOL
So H called children yesterday. He luckily wasn't drunk so I left the house, went to my FIL who lives nearby so they all could have some privacy.
Afterwards all 3 S's gave me the full story.
He said that this would be a very difficult conversation for him since he can't talk about his feelings with them, that this is a very hard thing to do. He explained his decision to go forward with the D to them (same explaination he gave to all the people in the last days).
He started crying and said it is very difficult for him now since it is official and he feels like he is letting us all down.
If you read the above, I can't stop thinking...even towards his children it's all about him, how he feels, how difficult it is for him etc. He only asked in the beginning, "what do you think about the situation...it really s*cks hey"
The children all replied that it is time now, that the situation has taken a very long time and that it is for the best. I have such a wise children!!
Because he couldn't stop crying they asked him to leave it for now and to call back next Sunday and talk further.
I only wonder why he now called everybody with the full explanation. He called all close relatives and even our best friends with whom he hasn't been in touch for a very long time. Is this a seeking for validation, that once he explained why he wants a divorce he can go ahead again with OW2 and everything around that? He cleaned/cleared his mind in a certain way and now he can live his live like he wants to?
Your children are amazing!!!!! And wise.
Of course he called everyone with the full explanation for validation - and also image management.
He will play the "sad sausage" for any and everyone who will listen.
I found it incredible that you wrote "even towards his children it's all about him, how he feels, how difficult it is for him". This whole thing has been all about him. I'm so glad you see that.
Going forward, you can know that you were there for your kids and you are a rock for them.
Kids eventually gravitate toward the sane, healthy parent.
You are amazing!
Eagle, I just want to say I am happy for the newfound resolve and peace you have gained. Bravo. And your being a great mom is the loveliest gift for your very fortunate children. Keeping your family in my thoughts. May your H eventually find his way out of the intergenerational(? given his uncle) pain.
Hi Apsara,
I just read your story and I'm sorry you are here as well. I too was active on the forum from a distance for almost 18 months before I actually wrote done my story. I'm so happy I did.
2 weeks post BD2 whereby H stated he wanted a divorce and again the ILYBNILWY story. (+ informed family & friends via phone a week later)
...and I'm actually doing just fine, the burden disappeared. Is it because BD1 was almost 2 years ago, because I finally found peace as I don't have to deal with the MLC madness anymore, because I actually can make plans to move forward in my life (and not stand still or go backwards anymore), don't know what is it but I'm not feeling bad, angry or sad.
Big help as well is that I didn't hear from him anymore and I hope this will be the case in the future as well.
I can fully let him go now.
I can imagine I'm not there yet and I most likely will have a relapse, but for now I wanted to share with you that I'm just fine
...and I'm actually doing just fine, the burden disappeared...I'm not feeling bad, angry or sad.
Keep this close to you to remind you if you feel a bit wobbly on some days.
Remember your strength. Remember you have good days and bad and reach deep down to where you are in this moment.
I, too, felt that. The burden was lifted from me.
I didn't realize how tightly I was holding on. When I let go - I had peace.
Doesn't mean it's always easy (had a setback this week) but it's good to know that I have a strength within that I can draw from.
I read the lighthouse a lot (newcomers post). It helps center me and who I want to be.
Stay strong, Eagle!!
Hi Eagle3, just catching up on a bit of your sitch. Glad to hear you're doing fine.
MLC & a pandemic. Exciting right? Let's through in a divorce too. Oh 2020, what a year. I am jokingly thankful to XH ending our marriage in 2020. There are thousands of relationships that went sour, and we are part of that history! There will be a T-shirt for it I'm sure.
Keep on keeping on. Be the best you and all that jazz you've already read. There will be ups and HIGHS and there will be lows.. and not wanting to get up. Dust yourself off, cry if you need to, eat crappy for one day if it makes you feel better and talk to your friends.
Best to you, from one bird to another
T-shirts. We certainly need t-shirts!
Several of us decided we needed #CAGD (crap at going dark) shirts in 2019.
maybe #MLC19D (MLC/covid19/divorce)
Here's to an amazing 2021! lol
I got a message from H today.
"FYI, OW1 passed away, I think suicide."
First I didn't know how to react...but then I asked him if he would like to call about it.
He said no, currently in meetings.
I aswered how he knew, he replied "colleague from former job (they both used worked at the same place) and "then verified on the internet". (they broke up between 8 to 10 months ago so this will be correct)
I answered that he could call me if he wanted to and that he didn't had to put the blame on himself.
Don't know if I handled right, simply followed my heart.
Now I'm terrified what this will do to him. Has anybody any thoughts of what this potentially can do?
I checked as well and he speaks the truth, she did pass away.
Oh my gosh, Eagle. What a thing for you to face.
I think you handled it really nicely and consistently with your heart -- which is good when you have such a good heart. I wouldn't follow up though, unless he reaches out to you and you are still feeling open to it.
Read what DnJ said on my post about fear. There are many outcomes of what this will do to H, but none of them are in your control. This event can be triggering for him or it can feed his false narrative, you have no way of knowing. You did the one thing you can do -- you were kind to him.
In a certain way, if you think about it, were he in a normal state of mind, he would probably not even need to tell you about that. It's part of his very sad drama but in a certain way not necessary for you to know unless it was part of a reconciliation process.
From the outside it is clear that OW1 had some very serious issues that had nothing to do with H and that he was drawn to someone who was not well because that is what MLCers do. Self destructive behavior was the name of the game the whole time -- and it destroyed your family along the way -- her suicide is just a very hyperbolic and sad example of how self destructive she was. People don't do that over a breakup who are otherwise mentally healthy.
All we can do as LBSers in the face of all this destruction is to walk in the light and protect our kids as much as we can - and pray for all these lost souls, even when their lostness impacts us with such devastation.
Hello Eagle
You handled that text perfectly.
H contacted you and shared the information. Offering to speak with him is very good. Cordial, kind, compassionate. H obviously informed you for a reason. He may not know the reason, other than a feeling, however a reason nonetheless.
You followed his lead. Well done. Offering to talk lets him set the pace and time until when/if he is ready.
Such a sudden message is difficult to quickly respond to. I think you did fine. I would suggest not bring up blame or his lack of blame. The act of bringing it up, even under the don’t blame yourself, places the focus upon it, and he will think blame. It’s like don’t think about purple elephants, and now your thinking about purple elephants.
H will bring up that which he needs to discuss. I’ve little doubt he will feel some blame and guilt; see if he calls and what he brings up.
As to the potential of what this may do. That’s hard to predict. H is emotional and this will be some pressure.
I understand you are terrified of what this will do to H. The negative possibilities do tend to jump out first. The purple elephant in the room being suicide. H believes OW1 killed herself, and he brought that up. Leave that trail there, no need to follow it further. People always extrapolate given data, even when it isn’t actually of the same dataset. If something indicates your needed direct involvement or taking charge do so then, otherwise be patient and let God.
Look to hope. The positive possibilities. H may look at his life, the fragility of it. He may realize some things. These are the events that affect people. Significantly altering their lives. That change may go unseen for sometime as it grows within them, eventually emerging. In which way, and in which direction H will be affected is to early to tell. One can hope though.
You followed you heart and did well.
OW1 was a person. Most likely a hurting person. Affairs and everything else aside, it is sad (if true) she took her own life. So telling of a person lost in too much pain.
D
Your response was excellent. He needed to tell someone and hope that you would listen. Very sad if she actually committed suicide.
Thank you for your responses, DnJ, Gerda and Job. Really appreciated.
From the information I found I’m pretty sure it is indeed suicide.
(Thoughts I read on the tributes page they made for her)
She must have been a broken person indeed.
I can’t stop thinking about it.
This is about a women I’ve never met,
yet really feeling sorry for her and her family now.
And only 1,5 year ago I had sleepless nights thinking about my H and her together
and my thoughts weren’t all that pretty back then of course.
Such a mixed feelings...
He replied back a few hours later:
“Thank you for your kind reply. I informed you because I thought it was important for you to know
since what happened between us in the past.”
Told him: Thank you for informing me and if you want to talk, I’m here.
This week I’m having a surgery planned (nothing serious, but under full anesthesia)
He never bothered asking how I would arrange with kids, work, if I needed help etc.
and now suddenly:
“I know your surgery is planned for this week? Please let me know if
I can do anything and inform me how it went?” (Can’t do much since he is 7.000 miles away...??)
I replied all is planned well and that MIL and sister
are ready to help me out the first week with kids, groceries, meals, laundry.
There goes my boundary of going dark on him. Worked for 2 weeks though.
But simply can’t find it in my heart to ignore him now. This just wouldn’t be right
and I would hate myself for it.
You are handling everything just fine. When they have a death that hits close to home, sometimes, it wakes them up briefly or even permanently. I think he realizes that life is short and he could very well lose even more loved ones along the way.
Continue as you have been.
You did fine. Now dial back the communication. He'll contact you if he wants to talk more about OW1 - which frankly isn't really appropriate for him to be confiding in your about, but that's how crazy alcoholic MLCers do. Be kind but don't give him more than you would give to a friend in that position. If he whines about it being his fault, you can let him know depression is a disease that can't always be treated.
Hello Eagle
It’s understandable to have stirred up emotions over OW1’s death, and to be thinking about things. Events like these affect people - always. You have the benefit and blessing to realize this. What effect will you foster within you?
Boundaries are implemented to protect one’s self. They are rock solid when warranted; as in H when you do ____, I’ll leave the room. H’s current behaviour and communication does not warrant a communication black out. And you are well healed to not need it. Therefore as long as H doesn’t behave like an @ss, no need to treat him like one - regarding this issue.
Don’t jump ahead, continue as you have been. H may or may not waken how ever briefly or long that may be. Be patient and keep moving forward, time will reveal all things.
D
Thank you so much!
The support I get from all of you means the world to me.
Eagle
Eagle3,
I've just been reading up on your thread. I'm so sorry for what you have been going through. This must be very difficult to bear with the constant drama and concerns you must have regarding the alcohol abuse and concerns for your children. I know for me, many years out, with limited contact with mine, it is still very difficult sometimes to get through it. I hope the situation stabilizes soon.
Hello Eagle3,
I just read your story and thank you so much for sharing it. There are some parallels to my sitch, so it is very helpful to see your strength and resolve. I admire your actions and I hope I can follow your example as I travel along my journey with an MLC H. I too am, for the moment, standing. H also drinks too much and is running. It is sad that OW1 committed suicide. Does go to show that OP are usually just as confused or in MLC just like our H. I know my H’s OW must be in MLC, and if not, I know she has past traumas (my H almost married her in his youth and told me about her in depth prior). I pray that your H comes through and doesn’t turn to suicide as well. I have concerns my H is at risk of that as he did attempt it once before he met me in response to his GF having a PA... Go figure, he’s now the one having a EA/PA.
Anyway, I wanted to drop you a note and say I admire your strength during your journey so far. I can see you will be fine and will be ready to start the new phase of your life knowing you stood as long as you could. Bravo!
Dear DB friends,
Many thanks for the strength you all give me along the way.
Last days were more difficult. Strange but since I heard of OW's death, she did creep in again and sleeping was very hard.
I had my surgery on Thursday, all went well there.
MIL came to help out in the house during the weekend, as well as my fantastic sister. I adore her!!
When MIL arrived she had H on the phone, luckily she waited in the car, until the conversation was over. He called to say OW1 died. He apparently called his Father and Stepfather as well to inform them. That their break-up must have been the biggest reason why she did this, (would never dare telling this if that was me...) that he feels guilty etc. If you feel actual guilt, in my opinion you don't call around to people telling she died, you sit in a corner and are devastated, and don't dare talking to anybody about this.
In the same conversation he also told he was going for dinner the next day with a "colleague". The guilt seemed suddenly far away...
Next couple of days were hard again. All is fine if I don't hear from him, even through other people, but when I do I'm feeling sad again. I think I'm finally grieving for my broken marriage.
On Sunday he always calls with kids. Now he wanted to watch a football game together with them, PC in front of our television and through skype he can see the screen. I normally always leave the house now but since I have the surgery I did not.
Hearing his voice wasn't good for me. I was forced to leave the house for a walk as I simply started crying. Didn't want the children to see.
Today I have also sent the first e-mail in regards to the D. I sent him the house estimation report as well as a guideline of what needs to be agreed upon before we can actually proceed. I also asked him to come with a first proposition.
He answered very briefly that he received everything and if I wanted a reply via e-mail or through phone. I told him I preferred through e-mail since the children are at home a lot. (in real is because I will have a hard time hearing him)
He then replied that he assumed I didn't expect an answer today and I mentioned of course not, take your time, don't need all the details yet, only a general overview of how you sees things.
He did not reply anymore.
IOW's, I stayed friendly and detached. (but it is so hard)
Damn, I expected to be further already, but unfortunately this is not the case...
I hope the days to come will be better.
A nice day to all of you. Hopefully something nice comes on your path today.
Eagle, thinking of you. You are carrying a huge wait on your shoulders. Please do not berate yourself for struggling. If you didn't struggle, your heart would be made of stone. Your struggle is indicative of your open loving self that has been smacked and whacked and pummeled in the heart. And on top of that you have health issues to deal with.
You are right to avoid hearing his voice. That's what going dark means! It's to protect you! When my D talks on the phone to H, I put on headphones and blast my favorites on spotify. You've figured out that you do better when you don't have to hear or see him. Do more of not hearing and seeing him. Tell yourself, "Eagle, I am going to protect you from that, we are going dark on that!" You need to heal so you can get stronger. And guess what -- when you are strong, it doesn't just help you deal with this struggle and the battles, etc. It will open you up to more joys in the life you have without him. I'm not saying restoration is impossible but either way you want to get Eagle back, get strong and have a soul free to experience joy in life again.
XO
Eagle, thinking of you. You are carrying a huge wait on your shoulders. Please do not berate yourself for struggling. If you didn't struggle, your heart would be made of stone. Your struggle is indicative of your open loving self that has been smacked and whacked and pummeled in the heart. And on top of that you have health issues to deal with.
You are right to avoid hearing his voice. That's what going dark means! It's to protect you! When my D talks on the phone to H, I put on headphones and blast my favorites on spotify. You've figured out that you do better when you don't have to hear or see him. Do more of not hearing and seeing him. Tell yourself, "Eagle, I am going to protect you from that, we are going dark on that!" You need to heal so you can get stronger. And guess what -- when you are strong, it doesn't just help you deal with this struggle and the battles, etc. It will open you up to more joys in the life you have without him. I'm not saying restoration is impossible but either way you want to get Eagle back, get strong and have a soul free to experience joy in life again.
Gerda is so right. ^^
((((Eagle3))))
You are right to avoid hearing his voice. That's what going dark means! It's to protect you! When my D talks on the phone to H, I put on headphones and blast my favorites on spotify. You've figured out that you do better when you don't have to hear or see him. Do more of not hearing and seeing him. Tell yourself, "Eagle, I am going to protect you from that, we are going dark on that!" You need to heal so you can get stronger. And guess what -- when you are strong, it doesn't just help you deal with this struggle and the battles, etc. It will open you up to more joys in the life you have without him. I'm not saying restoration is impossible but either way you want to get Eagle back, get strong and have a soul free to experience joy in life again.
Hi Gerda,
Thanks you for these words. You are absolutely right in what you write.
Since my journey started, 2 years ago, we as LBS start looking madly for an explanation that can explain why our H/W can become the opposite of who they used to be. I have read an awful lot, but many of the things I read I did not understand, let alone that I could place them or apply them effectively.
The longer your ride takes, the more everything becomes clear.
I also had this with the principle 'going dark'. I did not understand what this meant. Only now do I really understand that this is to protect yourself, and I can say with certainty now that this was really necessary for me, and will certainly be necessary in the near future, if only for the divorce in a businesslike way to be able to approach. I am a way too emotional person, I don't think I will succeed otherwise.
As you have read in my story, my H was a real clinging boomerang the past 2 years. However, it has been since my visit to the other country during the holidays that I had the impression that he really wanted a divorce this time, or maybe it was just me that was now ready to go forward with it.
He no longer calls me, but now mainly calls his mother. The weird thing is that he can't understand at all why I don't want to hear him anymore, why I don't want contact now. He also mentioned this to my sister a few weeks ago. I was convinced that he was now going to become more of a vanisher, but I have my doubts again. In any case, he sticks to what I asked from him and no longer calls me.
For now,I have not yet received a reply to the email I sent him. However, I do know that he would like to buy-in the house where I live with the children (I cannot buy it because it is too expensive). He wants me to stay here with them. I've been thinking about this but this is not something I want.
In this way he keeps full control of me and the children and if he suddenly returns I run the risk of having to leave the house in a rush. That's why I've already decided for myself that I want a fresh start, not one where he can exert any control over me.
After all, he wanted all this, this was not my choice, but I will protect myself from what comes. I do have control over that.
What do you think about this?
For now,I have not yet received a reply to the email I sent him. However, I do know that he would like to buy-in the house where I live with the children (I cannot buy it because it is too expensive). He wants me to stay here with them. I've been thinking about this but this is not something I want.
In this way he keeps full control of me and the children and if he suddenly returns I run the risk of having to leave the house in a rush. That's why I've already decided for myself that I want a fresh start, not one where he can exert any control over me.
After all, he wanted all this, this was not my choice, but I will protect myself from what comes. I do have control over that.
What do you think about this?
I agree its safer to be free and clear of a tie to him if you are divorcing. Unless of course you could own the home and the loans, but otherwise, why be put in a position of vulnerability? He may be offering it out of guilt or genuine concern for the kids or something else "positive" (ugh, yeah, I wanted all this but I want to be the nice guy), but if you are getting a D and you want less contact, then I think your decision makes total sense. You do have control over that and you should take control over your future and protect yourself. Hugs to you...I know it has to be so hard.
Good Morning Eagle
H was a real clinging boomerang the past 2 years.
I was convinced that he was now going to become more of a vanisher, but I have my doubts again.
Oftentimes the MLCer remains whatever “type” they are for the duration of the crisis. It’s in their core make up of themselves. H is going without talking/clinging to you, but he is reaching out to father, mom, and so on. It’s part of his path and his hidden internal needs. Just because he doesn’t contact you, or more follows your wishes that he doesn’t, does not denote he is, or is becoming, a vanisher.
The “type” is a MLCer’s “majority of the time” default outward expression of how they handle/ignore/run-from their feelings. Clinging and emotionally all over the place. Boomeranging back and forth between both lives and both ideals. Vanishing, poof, never look back, emotionally ignore, and run toward that new wonderful life. These paths are all built upon deceit and lies, to and of themselves. The path is of their own making and therefore is usually not undone until the crisis is undone.
Since my journey started, 2 years ago, we as LBS start looking madly for an explanation that can explain why our H/W can become the opposite of who they used to be. I have read an awful lot, but many of the things I read I did not understand, let alone that I could place them or apply them effectively.
The longer your ride takes, the more everything becomes clear.
I also had this with the principle 'going dark'. I did not understand what this meant. Only now do I really understand that this is to protect yourself, and I can say with certainty now that this was really necessary for me, and will certainly be necessary in the near future, if only for the divorce in a businesslike way to be able to approach. I am a way too emotional person, I don't think I will succeed otherwise.
Time is certainly a gift.
Things do get clearer as one progresses.
Going dark is very useful for protecting one’s self.
For now,I have not yet received a reply to the email I sent him. However, I do know that he would like to buy-in the house where I live with the children (I cannot buy it because it is too expensive). He wants me to stay here with them. I've been thinking about this but this is not something I want.
In this way he keeps full control of me and the children and if he suddenly returns I run the risk of having to leave the house in a rush. That's why I've already decided for myself that I want a fresh start, not one where he can exert any control over me.
After all, he wanted all this, this was not my choice, but I will protect myself from what comes. I do have control over that.
What do you think about this?
In November H stated he didn’t want a divorce. The Christmas holiday visit was reported disastrous, especially with the discovery of OW2.
Two years is lots of time, and not much time - at the same time.
Going dark does protect one’s heart and mind. That protection come as a wall and hardening of the heart. It takes specific energy and direction to keep your heart soft and squishy.
This wall is normal and comes as a feeling of indifference. Well, actually less feelings, like numb or muted. Your feelings, responses, reactions, and care about H, his words, his actions, his behaviours all become attenuated, become less. These are not gone, just currently less amplitude.
Indifference will not last forever, it does roll back later on. During this period of noise-free regarding a wayward spouse, is excellent time for the LBS to discover their values and beliefs; who they are deep down, without their spouse in their mind and heart.
Going dark can have a dark side, when one doesn’t realize what is happening. Being feeling free, and feeling better, when H is not around and when not talking to him, might cause you to incorrectly decide certain things. Make decisions based upon beliefs and values. Then consider those and challenge them against the bright light of logic and reason. Do they stand the test under that cold non-feeling scrutiny?
Do not make decisions based solely upon feelings. Feeling change and those decisions usually are less than ideal. The same goes for decisions bases upon the lack of feelings.
That probably appears paradoxical given the above reasoning about indifference and cold logical scrutiny.
This is a counterintuitive time for an LBS. One’s beliefs are being discovered and hopefully strengthening those that serve, and altering or discarding those that don’t. This takes time, during which we still decide certain things.
So, your current path and place. Being dark with H is providing relief for you. I think this relief is propelling you to seek a divorce quicker than you would otherwise. That is not necessarily wrong, just something to be aware of. Remember, your feelings do and will return. Ensure your decisions are ones you can live with and
will feel good about later. That only comes from following your deep beliefs, which may at the moment be getting somewhat altered.
You are looking at things business-like. Very good! The house sounds like a buy out is too expensive for you. Ensure you run the numbers, you only owe half of the debt, get alimony, and child support. You need a place to live, and this is for the moment still your home. If it is beyond what you can afford, even with support payments, then it is unlikely you can remain.
However, the not wanting to remain in the house looks a little like a reaction to H, the events of Christmas, and your new found going-dark indifferent feelings. It feels good to finally be out from under that yoke of attachment, right? The control of our life becomes our’s again. All good stuff! And quite intoxicating at first. Be patient and let
those emotions subside somewhat before making decisions. Look deep, look to your beliefs and logic.
The suspected events of a sudden return of H - you having to leave in a rush - are unlikely post divorce. As is any control H would have over you or your life. The truth is, for the future and the present, H only has the control you are giving him. Your fresh start has little to do with a house - it has much to do with you.
I live in the same house, same yard, same furniture, same dishes, bed (new sheets after a couple of years
), TV, decorations, and so on. Yet, I have a “new” life. A fresh start as it were. I cannot escape myself anymore than XW can outrun her past or self. One’s fresh start is in their heart and mind - make it based upon compassion and forgiveness. Find those values and beliefs and decide things with those tenets of life.
I care about you Eagle. I respect you and your stand. Standing becomes more about us than the marriage, relationship, our spouse, or MLC. Stand for you.
Divorce is a piece of paper. True, it does change our lives, especially the business side of it. Marriage is a formal arrangement and relationship, and divorce is just the dissolving of that. And through all of that - marriage, kids, life, divorce - there is always you. You remain. You are most important. Make decisions which you can live with, for you are the one that does.
I unabashedly share my views and encouragement with you. I was quite touched that you thought highly of my path and are wanting to walk a similar one, and will provide what I can.
Do me a favour and list, privately or share if you like, the reasons to move and sell your home; without H being one of the factors, for post-divorce he won’t be.
D
I think her point is that if H retains part ownership of the home after divorce, he still WOULD be a factor in her life.
However - given that your children are teens, and staying in the home until they have finished high school would minimize the disruptions in their lives, is there some way to make this work for you? You might want to speak to an attorney about ways to structure this do you are best protected. Is there a way that H gives up any rights of occupancy? Do you pay market rent and remaining house expenses are split according to income, or do you simply both split the mortgage, and maintenance costs? Is the house profit split 50:50 on its sale once your youngest have graduated?
H called me this evening. Unfortunately, the conversation was absolutely not good, but now I know which direction he wants to go. And this further reinforces my feeling that I must effectively become financially independent from him.
At first he absolutely does not understand why I currently do not want regular contact with him for now. He would like to come and stay in the house with the children soon ... and he also wants me to be there. I told him that this was not going to work for me, that when he comes to visit now, that I was going to stay somewhere else so he could spend a few days with the kids. He absolutely did not understand this.
He also talked about the divorce, first in a friendly manner.
That he would like to buy the house, that I would get half immediately (by the way I am fully entitled, but in his eyes he gives me a gift) so that in the meantime I can already buy something else and for example rent it out for the time being, and that I could live in the house with the children for free, until he decided to return, and made it clear that this would not happen in the first years.
Then I honestly asked him how this could last if he suddenly had to return for his job, or if he wanted to visit our children, he wouldn't be able to stay here overnight, or if someone else came into my life. Then suddenly it was a lot less friendly.
No one comes into his house without his permission, he is not a toy. Literally his words. From then on rent will be paid or I will have to leave the house. He also started talking about the fact that several people (mainly his family which is the truth) had been in the house in recent weeks and probably already had a good time on his wine ... and this without him!
Basically, these are just a few examples of what I mean by the control he wants to keep, and I don't want that anymore. Not for myself, but certainly not for the children.
We talked about alimony at the time and things went completely wrong there too.
The bottom line was that everything I said he was constantly going against it and wanted to provoke a discussion.
@DnJ, I continue to sincerely believe I should follow your path and I will.
Please always give me your honest opinion, as you did again today. I really appreciate that because it makes me look at things in a different way and I really need that. One thing is certain, we are dealing with a different kind of MLC’er, you with a vanisher, me with a clinging boomerang and therefore the approach may be different.
Today I still don't feel any hatred towards him, not a shred. It is and remains very clear that he is in deep crisis, hence the understanding and acceptance. But I know I will have to take the distance and push it through to be independently, because he will continue to do what he does today if I accept his proposal.
The house where you live today and have also lived with XW is yours, if I were in that situation I would certainly not leave our house.
But unfortunately it is not possible in my case. And I can live with that perfectly. They are only bricks after all, and I will be able to buy another very nice house with the money I get from the current one, but that will be mine, and mine only.
I will definitely make up the list and share it with you. But I think I have already mentioned a few things here why I should not continue to live in the house when he buys it.
@Kml I hope you have enough information to understand what the situation is today. I have already talked about this with the children themselves and they find it absolutely no problem to have a new beginning, in a new home of our own. Thank you for giving me good advice.
I sometimes feel that this forum and therefore all of you are the only ones who really understand what we are dealing with.
And DnJ, thank you for giving me an insight of the type of the MLC’er and the reasons why they mostly remain the same type. This was completely new to me.
He sounds like he wants to keep you as his “Plan B”. Funny how they don’t want us but get so upset at the idea that we might move on and find somebody new.
I’m glad that you will be in a financial position to buy a home of your own. If the kids are ok with moving, then I would take that approach. H can buy you out of your share if he doesn’t want to sell the house - HE could rent HIS house out while he’s working away.
You confronting him with the reality of what divorce means is interfering with his fantasy world where he gets to have his cake and eat it too.
Hello Eagle
I agree with kml, looks like H was trying to keep you as plan B. As soon as you showed signs of not, he gets mad. And yes, threatening that you will have to pay rent and such is pretty illuminating of where he is.
Be business minded and continue moving forward.
It is really great your kids are understanding in all of this. Of course, they are following their Mom’s lead.
You so got this.
D
This morning I had H on the phone again. He wants to come for a few days and is angry that I will not be in the house when he will be here. He thinks many people who divorce still live together under one roof. There was enormous anger again. Is this the right decision to do this and not be here while he's here? The kids don't like this either just because they fear how he will react to them all week. But then I think it is better to do this now, there will come times when they have to go to the other country alone to visit him and then if there is something wrong I cannot immediately do something which is not the case now. I won’t be far away from them.
Can I send him something so that I can explain to him why I cannot or should I leave it this way?
There is the fear again unfortunately.
Good Morning Eagle
I wouldn’t leave XH alone in the house. It sounds like the kids don’t want to be alone with him either.
When my XW was coming over during the first week or so after BD and moving in with her OM, I didn’t let her wander around the house - she left. And I was ensuring things didn’t go missing, and then we start splitting assets with some things already gone. She didn’t like it. Too bad! She left. (I didn’t like either but I followed the advice I was given.)
This is business. His visit is not reconciling, he still has an OW, and is still wanting a divorce. You know you can tell him, he is not welcome at the house and to stay somewhere else. You and the kids are willing and looking to a new start, and new house. (Making the best of a horrible situation I realize btw).
Divorce is messy. H is thinking and wanting some Hollywood fantasy life, divorce, movie, blah, blah, type thing. A wee bit of the reality of his situation is smacking him across the face at the moment. Good. Now, don’t you go walking around on eggshells. Stand your ground and utilize boundaries.
... there will come times when they have to go to the other country alone to visit him...
No, they are over the age of 12 (unless your locale is different) and they get to choose who they live with and how they visit them. With one at 16 and two at 13, H has little say and control over them.
As my lawyer pointed out to me, strictly speaking kids over 12 do choose where they live, and visitation can be forced by the courts. But, a kid will make that visit horrible if they don’t want to be there. So, visitation may be forced but doesn’t endure, the wayward parent will give up long before the child will wear down.
There is no need to explain your actions to H. He isn’t going to listen and will use anything and everything against you. He is actively working to divorce you. Stay business-like, do not welcome him to “your” home. If he insists, fine, then he can sleep on the couch in the basement, and look after himself. You and the kids have lives to live and things to do.
Suggest he stay somewhere else and visit the kids away from the house. You can use the reason, we are divorcing.
Depending on his reaction, there are legal avenues you can take. Speak to a lawyer and learn your rights. You may not need to enact them. Knowledge is power, and to know before you need to know is most helpful. Forewarned is forearmed. This is a business deal gone bad. It gets messy. (((Hugs)))
D
The thing is that I suggested already when I was in the other country when he stated he would come over that he could stay over in the house for a short time with the children but that I was not going to be there.
If I say now he can't stay over then I'm not firm in my decision taking towards him.
This was a firm boundary I made and don't want to change this now.
I actually do want him to be with the children for a whole week.
This way he will know what it is to take care of 3 teenagers.
I won't be far away. And the children know they can always contact me.
Maybe this wasn't the best decision I took here, had to ask before speaking to H...
I need to refrain my wording as above it is not clearly explained.
1st difficulty: H always wants to stay in the house when he comes over. His view is that it is also his house and I can't refuse him to sleep here, in the spare bedroom of course.
2nd difficulty: I made a clear boundary that if he was coming over to the house, I would not be here. Since he wanted a divorce, we will not be living under one roof anymore.
And to be honest, I don't want to be in the house with him. He kicks on drama and I'm the target (that's why he always wants to stay in the house) so it will actually be worse for the children. I don't want to put them through that again...
Stick with your boundary then. You stay somewhere else, he has the kids for a few days in the house You're right, having to feed and take care of his kids for a few days might be good for him. He's mad because you will be out of his reach - he can't push your buttons, he gets to worry about you possibly being out on a date with another man (I know you aren't, but the cheater begins to worry that WE could do the same thing to THEM). He also can't get you to agree to an "arrangement" where he gets to have his OW and still have you too.
Stick to it. If he were to suddenly come to his senses and realize what he's losing, it's much more likely to happen if he has to face the reality of what post-divorce life will be like.
Plus you deserve a break from raising the kids!
Eagle, you do not have to hold yourself to boundaries that no longer make sense. And I would not give a fig what H thinks. Do what is best for your kids. If I were your kids, I would feel unprotected and maybe even betrayed if Mom left me alone with angry crazy mean dad who I am mad at for a week.
Also you are not going to teach him what it's like to raise teenagers. First, it's only a week. Second, he is in MLC. He will leave saying it's so easy and you are a wimp who spends too much money on the kids, etc.
Tell him to rent an AirB nearby and the kids can visit him.
He says -- But you told me blah blah blah
You say -- That is no longer the case, sorry.
You don't have to explain or engage. But if you really want to answer, say -- That is not healthy for the kids. They can visit you at your place, even if your place is temporary.
I am forgetting your sitch at the moment but this is why you need to have a clear parenting plan, and it needs to establish that you have sole use of the marital home at least until trial. Don't believe me? Just read my story and see what can happen if you don't.
Gerda- I don’t think he’s been a mean dad? I definitely don’t think she should stay there with him, she just becomes the maid for his visit. And truthfully, the teens will probably prefer to stay in their home. I think it’s ok to follow through with the original plan.
Hello Eagle
A few thoughts occur:
This way he will know what it is to take care of 3 teenagers. - Probably not. He will be with them for a week, the level of care is questionable.
I actually do want him to be with the children for a whole week. - Noble sentiment. But asking why? Dad isn’t Dad right now. Are you wanting it for the kids sake, your sake, to show him a lesson, or to promote a relationship with his children? He should want to be with the kids - and more than for a week. It is not your job to facilitate the relationship between H and the children. It is just your job not to destroy it.
If I say now he can't stay over then I'm not firm in my decision taking towards him. - Boundaries can and need to change as situations change and evolve. Boundaries are for you. They protect you. They demonstrate how people are to treat you. Boundaries are a clear premeditated action towards a disrespectful behaviour from someone. They are not a reaction.
This was a firm boundary I made and don't want to change this now. - That’s ok. Asking yourself why every now and then ensures the situation still warrants a boundary or action and allows you to alter your action to suit the evolving situation. Things have evolved since your trip, ensure your actions is still warranted and suitable.
1st difficulty: H always wants to stay in the house when he comes over. His view is that it is also his house and I can't refuse him to sleep here, in the spare bedroom of course. - This is somewhat true. At the moment, yes it is his house as well. Unless you have a restraining order or such, refusing him access is not legally enforceable. It is good that he knows that he is to sleep in the spare room. If you were there and basically going to a different room every time he spoke meanly or disrespectfully, I suspect his “wants to stay in the house” would lessen. What would things be like if he didn’t want to stay there? If he wanted to stay somewhere else?
2nd difficulty: I made a clear boundary that if he was coming over to the house, I would not be here. Since he wanted a divorce, we will not be living under one roof anymore. - This particular action to H’s behaviour troubles me. Boundaries are for you to take control during a disrespectful situation against you. Boundaries are your actions when <blank> happens. They shouldn’t greatly affect your life and what you are doing. For example, H when you come in the living room and start swearing at me it’s demeaning and hurtful, and I will leave the room. So, you go to another room and continue to do the reading your book or whatever you were doing (more or less).
However, you leaving the house is a pretty big change. Basically H controls you by him coming over. Now, if you were like, Hey, a week visit with the kids. Great! I’m going on a vacation, see you next Friday. That would be something wouldn’t it?
I’d consider staying in the house. Why should you change just because H “wants” to come over? You look to be reacting to future confrontations from H, over the drama he will most likely bring up. That is understandable. You aren’t looking for a fight. However, boundaries are enacted when the event occurs not because it might occur.
The boundary upon living under the same roof when he wants a divorce, I do see it. If you need to leave, by all means do so. It is usually not a good nor recommended idea to leave or live elsewhere during separation. In a trail where one can state that they never, at any time, lived anywhere else but in their house carries some weight. Of course, this is just a week away, you didn’t move out like H. It’s more like a vacation. I would treat it more like a vacation than a boundary.
Maybe you just need a vacation. Of course, your kids might want come along then.
With OW1 you had him leave the house, even bought sheets and pillow cases, and he finally did get the hint and left. Then a while later without OW1 in the picture he returned. Things got troubled and he left again and now has been visiting every 4-6 weeks. This current agreement is what he is working upon. This agreement was made when you didn’t know about OW2, or she wasn’t involved yet. The situation has changed. Therefore the agreement probably should change.
I do see and understand your thoughts regarding being under the same roof. What I am looking out for is you and your kids. You guys are the important folks in all of this. I’ve asked several questions and suspect you will either strengthen your resolve or to relax it a bit. There is no right answer in all of this by the way. You know best the situation you are living. And I support you!
D
First and foremost, thank you for your honest opinion.
As DnJ suggested, I took some time to think about what to do best in this situation.
First of all, I think about my children. Do they like being alone with him for a whole week? No, they don't like this.
Do they like to spend a whole week with me in the house, including him. No, been there, done that numerous times, they don't like that.
Secondly, I think about myself. Am I happy to leave my house because he comes to visit and absolutely wants to stay in the same house? No, I don't like that.
Am I happy to stay in the house with him for a whole week? No, I don't like that.
So what's the best decision to make here? Simple, there is no right decision. There is no decision we can all relate to simply because you are with someone in your life who thinks only about himself and there is no way you can change or alter his mind.
I decided to look at it differently. He left the house 6 months ago and he comes and goes as he pleases. He does this because he has to come to maintain a relationship with his children. Is this sincere, no, he does this in order not to be portrayed as the bad one by the family, the friends. In his mind, leaving your wife, OK, that's between 2 people, leaving your kids, that's a whole different story, and he knows it all too well as his uncle did the same and the whole family hated him for that.
As always said on this forum: If something doesn't work, stop from doing this and try something else. Well, I'm going to do this. Whenever he came home for several days in the last 6 months, I was always there for him. As kml says, "she just becomes the maid for his visit." That's exactly how I see it as well. He always counts on me to arrange everything. This was already quite the case before MLC, it is now 1000x stronger.
So now I don't want to give in to what he wants. The evidence is there, it turned him back into a monster. He just needs to feel that I can't be there for him anymore. Will this change the situation? Most likely not. But for me it will be the 2nd time (1st time when I put him in an apartment last year) that I once did not give in to his manipulative and controlling behavior.
That is why I have decided not to stay in the house. It will be a very difficult time but I think it will be the best decision to take in a very bad situation.
I think that's well thought out.
A good level headed rational approach.
Definitely agree with getting out from under his controlling behaviour. And you are not his maid. Good job!
Back with my kids today, back to my own home, after a nerve-racking week.
However, I am convinced that I made the best decision.
The children are genuinely happy that I am back and that they can leave that week behind. It was not always easy for them. The first night I already got messages from my kids stating he had drunk enough and started crying with them, constantly saying that he felt like he was abandoning them, which they actually confirmed. S16 has also been pretty honest with him. About the fact that he is not the same daddy anymore, that he is never around, that he hurt us a lot, he even talked about OW1 and how he felt about it. STBXH reacted defensive a few times if the wording did not suit him.
The weekend was quiet. He kept himself well with them for 2 to 3 days. From day 3 the anger / laziness reappeared. S16 got up to 5 last-minute messages to get the groceries, just as he was almost home when he left school. Then also easily angry if they were a bit too active. Drinking every night, luckily not until he was completely drunk.
One evening, however, it did escalate, in which case he called me and I got the blame again, now it was about my mother, that she never liked him (totally not true) and that for this reason he would not show goodwill as a result if we got divorced. I then immediately jumped to that topic and asked what he had already arranged for the divorce this week (was the reason he was here he had told me before), and he said he was not here for that reason but for the kids . But if I wanted to arrange that I had to come over. I guess he didn’t expect me to say, ok, I will be there first thing tomorrow morning.
And I did. The conversation was hallucinatory. Cold, without emotion, just prentending he was working on his PC. I stayed as businesslike as possible and also behaved as good as possible (friendly and calm) and went through the checklist I had through the notary to tick off all the points. Everything was arranged within 1.5 hours, subject to many reproaches that I was a lucky person to receive all of that (simply the things I have the right to have??)
The most important points are that I have full custody, he has not been difficult at all about this and that he will start paying alimony from 01/03. The house will be sold and will be divided 50/50.
Furthermore, he would come every 6 weeks for 1 week, no longer in the current home (definitely because he cannot cope with the care of the 3 children).
So the draft has been made. I will now do the necessary to arrange everything with the notary. He will come back to sign in 6 weeks. I hope we can handle this then because I have reached the point where this is really necessary now.
After this conversation, he immediately jumped into his car, he still had to go somewhere...(running behavior?)
At the beginning of the week I received messages up to 4 times where he asked if I did not want to come over for dinner. (This was before the making of the draft) I went once, purely because I wanted to see the children. I didn't stay long either. The other times I declined and said I had other plans.
From what I understand he is incredibly fanatic about sports. He is training for a triathlon. The depression seems much less present now. So again back to heavy replay behavior. I find it so incredibly strange he had made progress a few months ago and that he is now back in full replay phase.
He has again seen all the people he has had some contact with. All very short, max. 1 to 2 hours. And then he apparently keeps up appearances. His mother is the only one he has invited over for dinner. He did not contact his father at all. Actually a copy paste of the first year after BD.
The wardrobes are a bit emptier again. He has taken more clothes and sports equipment which he has not used for years.
As for my feeling, I am proud of myself that I managed to take the lead to get the business side done. I am fully convinced that we need to finalize the divorce in order to have control of my own life again (definitely financially). I also do this because from what I read in several threads, that the sooner you arrange this, the better you get it finalized in a proper way since they still feel guilt in a certain way.
However, every time I see him I yet again have that double feeling. This is not the man I fell in love with so it could not be so difficult to let him go, but at the same time I still have that urge to be there for him, because you can see that he is in internal pain. Why always that double, gnawing feeling that I just can't get rid of.
I also have another question in regards to my S16.
I had a very open conversation this morning with him and it seems this all has a significant impact on him, much more then I expected. He even told me his feelings are becoming numb towards his father but also to other people which is not good. He also realizes this himself. Therefore I suggested to arrange a meeting with a psychologist and he agreed.
Is this something I need to inform STBXH about or not?
The problem is STBXH currently thinks he is a great father (most of the time, when he's not drunk), from the messages he's been sending them he really doesn't have any clue how the kids are feeling towards him.
Good Morning Eagle
S16 seeing a psychologist is not something you must tell H. He has made it clear that you are to have sole custody. You are obligated to share matters of life and limb, the rest is up to you.
In this situation, I would specifically ask S16 if he wants Dad to know he is seeing and talking to someone. I suspect S16 will want his privacy. Assure him that you will honour his request, and if you ever have to explain S16’s sessions to Dad ensure you tell S16 of it and why it was needed.
This will help with S16’s rising feelings of indifference. That numb feeling is a healthy step along the path of healing. It is great to see you and son talking openly about it and other things. Assure him this numbness is temporary, as feelings are, and that it is completely normal and actually a good sign.
I am sure the other two boys are similarly feeling numb and somewhat lost. That is pretty normal since this is a never been lived through situation for them and you.
Dad will have little clue as to how the children are feeling towards him. A person in crisis is living a fantasy narrative and people are seldom the villain in their own stories. Let them tell you anything they want too. You need not have all the answers as oftentimes it is just they need someone to hear them.
Your double feeling. That wanting to let go and wanting to be there for H. I hear you.
There is a peace within the storm. Those two views are not as exclusive as one first sees them to be. You can do both. Consider what you can control. H is making his decisions and is running pretty hard and fast. You can care for him and let go.
Do not demonize him to the kids. Do not gloss over things either. Be open and honest (age appropriate of course). He is their Dad, and he is hurting. It is completely fine for you and them to let go, and in truth is needed. It is needed for you guys and for H.
H is driven to get space and distance from those that care, for he cannot handle that right now. MLC is such a messy emotional torment. The best way for you to be there for him is to not block his path. Let him go to make his decisions and gain the experience and consequences of those. Hopefully he will grow up, learn, and heal.
Letting go will allow you and the boys to heal as well. H’s path and pain is not, and has never been, about you nor the boys. You didn’t break him, therefore you cannot fix him. That lesson is age appropriate for all your sons. It helps with their indifference and to find acceptance of their feelings.
You are doing really well my friend.
D
Thanks again for the wise words DnJ, it helps me to follow the path of enlightenment every day.
STBXH has been very friendly for the last 2 weeks.
After his monster behavior during the divorce settlement of 2 weeks ago, he sent a message a few days later to say that he was sorry about his reaction and that he only wants what is best for everyone, but that not everyone has this with him…?
Since then he has been in touch almost every day, through messages or phone calls, usually concerning the divorce or the children, but he is very friendly towards me.
I am detached enough to handle it properly.
He did change his mind about selling the house. He now wants to buy it and is doing to utmost to get his loan. (don't understand why since he is living abroad, but I don't mind since the price he is paying me is very good and then I'm not in a hurry to have to leave the house)
Suddenly he also informed me about the fact he was seeing a therapist since this week.
I replied, good for you, I thought you were going to figure everything out yourself, he replied that he sees now that it is better to seek help and that he has now done this.
Hopefully for him he is telling the truth. This obviously doesn't affect me, but it would be a step forward for him.
I have a weird question. I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I do want to keep it going, though, because I am convinced he has a very, very long way to go.
How should I respond to that? I know this may not happen but I want to be prepared to be on the safe side.
I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))
Any feedback is welcome.
I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))
Eagle3, I haven't read your whole situation, so please take this with that grain of salt. Are you saying if he expresses doubts and works on himself you're willing to wait for him, or you're willing to be there as a friend? If the former, have you considered a post-nuptial agreement? I have no experience, but some others here have done that. It spells out what happens if you get divorced, so you lock in that safety net, without stepping fully away.
Hello Eagle
STBXH emotions and mood will cycle. Pleasant to monster and back and forth.
I have a feeling that he may have doubts about whether he wants to go ahead with the divorce. I do want to keep it going, though, because I am convinced he has a very, very long way to go.
Feelings are interesting. You are most likely picking up his small behaviours from his confused doubts and his new actions (counselling, buying house, and such). These queues mingle with your hopes and craft a feeling. You are probably right. STBXH has doubts about his plan and actions. However, do you about your’s?
How should I respond to that? I know this may not happen but I want to be prepared to be on the safe side.
I want to continue with the divorce (as said, financial security + peace of mind for children), but at the same time I also want to make it clear to him that I want to be there if he is working on himself. (but you cannot say that explicitly ... or they run again ... ;))
Keep the divorce businesslike. To be rather plain and straightforward, do not divorce because H has a very very long road ahead of him - none of us know how long his path is. Do not divorce for peace of mind for your children - they can achieve peace regardless of your martial status. Do divorce if it is needed for your financial security. Elsewise leave the heavy lifting to H.
You’ve stated you need the financial security and are proceeding with D. Feelings do muddy things a bit. Ensure your actions are logical and sound and not based upon emotions. For now and for the previous decision to divorce.
How to respond? This is twofold (at least). Would you consider delaying divorce proceedings? If so, why? Just a feeling or an actual recognized behavioural change that indicates possible betterment of H’s self outlook? Tough question, even tougher answer.
Do you want to be there for him if he is making progress? If so, in what capacity? Wife, friend, ex wife and kids’ Mom, or gal which may consider investigating the possibly of a future R? Or any mixture thereof I suppose.
So, how to respond is a difficult question with so many variables. Let’s simplify it a bit.
You only control you.
Do not attempt to manipulate H’s path. If his current wanting to purchase the house, and his present IC visits, actually continue and show long term demonstrated behaviours which lead to healing and better times for him, great. Encourage him, and remain backed off. It is his path.
If you desire or are willing to explore a possible reconciliation, H needs to walk his path all the way to the end. To when and where he consistently demonstrates good behaviours. An awakening is more than a single event or few moments. Many months of a calmer and healthier H will take place wth fewer and fewer relapses; you will know when he is ready. During that time you walk your path.
If you do not desire that, H still needs to walk his path. And you still walk your’s.
Which leads to - you control you.
What do you wants and need? Do you need financial security? Or is the D more from frustration? Or are you through? By the way, I do not believe you are through with him, otherwise you’d not be willing to be there if he works on himself. So...
If H comes out and states his doubts about D, tell him precisely why you are divorcing him and when and how you’d encourage him while he is working on himself. (This would include the D delay if you so choose that path) Without communication, accurate clear communication, nothing will be dealt with as well as it could be. For the most part, the MLCer or WAS is not going to be open and honest or listen to open and honest feedback. However, H might; and that is worth a shot. If he runs, then he wasn’t ready. If he doesn’t run...hmmm.
I suggest this because of H’s recent actions not his words. Give it some time to see how consistent he is.
You only can control you. Divorce is just a piece of paper. Keep it businesslike (mostly) and stand for you.
D
Both of your posts made me think again, so very good advice CWarrior and DnJ. Thanks!
Didn't know about a post-nuptial agreement, never heard of this. Will definitely take this into account if needed.
The last few weeks have been going really well for the children and me.
We all accept the situation and handle it well, each in our own way.
S16 is still having the hardest time but he talks about it which is good. In the meantime it has become very clear to me which difficulties he is having a hard time with and I am helping him with that. It was also good for him to go and talk to an IC, which has helped him opening up even more.
The BIG question: Then why do I still want to be there for him?
Simple, because he is the father of our children and because I have always respected him for who he was and what he stood for.
Is he still this person? No.
Did he choose this himself? No.
Do I want to be with the person he is right now? No.
So, I decided to be there for him, as a friend I wouldn't immediately say, but as the father of our children. This is the only qualification I can live with right now.
I was partly right. The feeling occurred to me he had doubts again.
Well, a few days ago I got a call from him.
When I picked up I had a very confused STBXH on the line.
He told me that he is really not well, that he wants to know what he has, that he wants to give up everything over there and come back and whether there is still room for him in our house.
He also asked if I had somebody new.
Furthermore he also said that him returning would be seen as a failure to everybody, because he would have to give up his work etc. (therefore I think he has difficulties in taking the step)
I've been honest to him all the way.
I have made it clear that there is a place for him in this house but in the guest room, and that the first condition is that he seeks help here as well.
I made it very clear that I want to help him because he is the father of our children, not in any other qualification.
I also told him that there is nobody new in my life. That this is not what I'm seeking, but that I have a good life again, together with my family and friends and that this is something I will not give up anymore.
I assured him that this would not be seen as a failure, but just as a success, as he finally wants to work on himself, because the fleeing and the unhappiness will last, that there is no way out but to face it.
He listened very carefully and agreed on everything.
He told me he would call me back the next day.
Surprise, surprise, of course I didn't hear anything.
I hope I have handled it well?
Yesterday he did call the children, I was friendly and said hello, nothing more. He was very calm as well.
I guess he just need to process again? Anyway, this will not affect the path I'm walking, although I'm anxious and afraid at the same time. I'm happy now, what if he returns and it is false again?
Don't want to go to the same rollercoaster as the past 2 years...
But, as said, we are not there yet. Curious what will happen in the coming weeks...
Eagle3, I don't have enough experience with MLCs to say whether your answer was ideal strategically, but I love the strength and compassion in your response. You are clear you have a good life you're not willing to give up, that you're not willing to jump at a chance at R, but aren't taken or about to be taken and are willing to offer him the guest room and positive support. You've given him a likely path back without making it too easy or too hard. I also love that you had no expectations and took his flip-flopping in stride.
Hello Eagle
I am glad the children are opening up more and more. This is difficult and it is very good they are comfortable speaking to you about their feelings.
Your conversation with H, as CW said, you have clear, well organized, and thought out plans. These will make good basis for boundaries going forward.
Did you handle it well? A difficult question. No one can see all ends. No one can accurately predict what will work or won’t work. Besides, the LBS cannot really affect path of the MLCer. We cannot speed it up and usually at worse just slow their progress. The LBS just needs to do what works for them, so no matter what happens they can live with what they’ve done.
That, of course, is a bit of an unknown while mired in the thick of things. And so we turn to ideas and strategies that work in most situations;. To be clear, strategies that work for you and H.
Being honest. Good.
Being kind and compassionate. Good.
However, I do not believe H was ready or looking to hear all that just yet. Remember, no pressure.
Well, a few days ago I got a call from him.
When I picked up I had a very confused STBXH on the line.
He told me that he is really not well, that he wants to know what he has, that he wants to give up everything over there and come back and whether there is still room for him in our house.
He also asked if I had somebody new.
Furthermore he also said that him returning would be seen as a failure to everybody, because he would have to give up his work etc. (therefore I think he has difficulties in taking the step)
Validate and acknowledge his feelings, not promote your own. I know how difficult that is, by the way.
What you stated in parentheses is probably true. That is an excellent follow up query after validation to illicit further information and promote him to dig within. A few suggestions:
I am sorry you feel like you wanting to return is a failure.
I am sorry you are not feeling well.
Speak to his feelings. Not to his actions. For example:
If you stated, I am sorry you feel coming home is a failure. This creates “coming home” to equate to failure, it reinforces his irrational feelings and fears. Acknowledge “wanting” to come home and the feelings that whelm up from that thought not the act.
A person in turmoil, in crisis, when they reach out, especially at first, they are looking to be heard. H is testing the waters, to see how you will react to his feelings. He is not looking for solutions, not yet. He is not looking for understanding or empathy. His path is still very much emotionally driven and about himself. Let him lead the way.
H doesn’t know what he is after or why he feels like he does. He is, as he said, confused. Validating and acknowledging his feelings gives him permission to let him process them. That will probably happen without you, as it should. Perhaps, that idea or view will help you with where he is currently is.
I agree with you answering his question of if there is anyone else. Some advice is to be more mysterious, to let them think/feel like perhaps there is another. It depends upon the situation. The big item is that you are not sitting around pinning for their return; and you got that across. Also, the being mysterious is more when not being directly asked. In your case, being evasive would cause more problems than would potentially solve. Honest = good. If you do not want tell him something, that is the correct response.
H: Are you seeing anyone?
E: I’d rather not discuss my love life right now.
That is probably a better strategic answer. However, not a better one for you. You stated your position and got certain things off your chest and out in the open. Next time, and I am certain there will be a next time, being evasive and stating as above will be a better answer (for you too).
As I said, you were clear and well thought out, which will make good clear boundaries easier to state and enforce.
I guess he just need to process again? Anyway, this will not affect the path I'm walking, although I'm anxious and afraid at the same time. I'm happy now, what if he returns and it is false again?
Don't want to go to the same rollercoaster as the past 2 years...
Yes, anxious and afraid, seems reasonable. You don’t want to repeat the rollercoaster again.
What if he returns again, and it is false? You cannot control his outcome. You can control your’s and your actions.
Why does H need to return directly into the guest room? Suggest, and if that is not picked up on since these MLCer’s have the mental sharpness of a gnat, tell H that he can return and he should use a rental for the first while to see how things go. You and he can visit him living under your roof at a later date.
You need not place boulders upon his path, yet his path need not be a direct line from there to guest bedroom. Might be best if it isn’t.
Nicely done Eagle.
D
Hi Eagle,
I agree with what the others have posted. I also think your response showed you hear him and validated his feelings while showing you are living your life and standing for you. I can only imagine how many emotions his wanting to come home must bring up in you. My advice is to try to not focus on the little details and try to step back and view things from a broader perspective. For example, over analyzing his comments or actions from one episode might have you feeling that they mean more than they do. Stepping back a bit and weighing actions that occur over a longer period of time might offer more clarity (or even lack of actions count towards knowledge). He might just be testing the waters or he might be just pulse checking you. What he does in the next few weeks will help to make things more clear...well, at least as clear as they can be with someone in crisis. MLC is crazy town after all. Hugs to you. (((Eagle3)))
, I do not believe H was ready or looking to hear all that just yet. Remember, no pressure.
H: Are you seeing anyone?
E: I’d rather not discuss my love life right now.
I think you are right here. He was just testing the waters if I had anyone else. Since that phone call he is acting happy again, sends me messages concerning the follow-up of the separation of our common properties in regards of the D etc.
I think the right answer is to use your quote next time.
I also love that you had no expectations and took his flip-flopping in stride.
I can only imagine how many emotions his wanting to come home must bring up in you.
During the call and before that I indeed didn't have any expectations and all was going really well.
The moment he called I couldn't help it but as Elbereth stated, the mixed emotions are creeping in and I have been thinking much more about him the last two weeks again. It is very difficult to step back and watch the bigger picture. The hope for him to come through returns quickly in such cases unfortunately.
I would like to ask you something about the possible OW2 relationship. I'm not sure if he has a relationship currently but as you know I saw some messages end of December which confirmed him communicating again with a new OW.
He apparently confirmed to his mother (only know this since last week) early january that he wanted a divorce because he met somebody new and that his relationship with OW1 was based on lies and deceit and that he therefore did not want the same start in a new relationship.
I do read a lot of stories about an OW1, but almost never about an OW2. Do you know stories that I can read whereby an OW2 is/was involved in MLC?
Since OW1 "was the love of his life", do they have the same feeling about OW2? I almost can't believe this is possible?
Anyway, in 2 weeks he is coming over again. I left the house last time. Will not do it this time and have confirmed this to him as well. He says he doesn't have any problems to stay with me in one house...he really acts like I'm his friend at the moment. I can handle it but assume this is kind of strange?
Good Morning Eagle
I understand the mixed emotions rising up after the call.
With each call and as time goes by, we keep getting better and better at letting go our expectations and letting our temporary feelings flit. It is perfectly normal for one feel and expect after interactions. Our control is in us letting go of those and returning to our core self again. It gets easier to to step back and view the big picture. Don’t worry, you are doing fine - experience makes masters of us all.
I am glad to see you are planning on remaining in the house during H’s upcoming visit. Be kind and cordial. Friendly not friends. His visiting is no stranger than anything else on these weird paths. I suspect you may learn some things depending on how loquacious H feels like being; the less you say the more he will. Most just can’t help themselves, and they blurt out. Keep boundaries when necessary and filter out any projections and blame-ridden justifications - do not take the bait.
Since OW1 "was the love of his life", do they have the same feeling about OW2? I almost can't believe this is possible?
An OW2 is possible. The answer you don’t want to the unasked question - an OW2 is actually quite probable as well.
The other woman is just a band-aid. She is just a shinny object which the crisis person runs to, in their ineffective attempts to escape their pain and torment.
A MLCer’s feelings are a mess. Emotions cranked up to bizarre levels. As such, irrational behaviours and decisions abound. Their feelings are real and like all feelings - temporary. And as their own feelings flit and start and stop and shift and so on, they keep feeding their narrative. They have too.
“The love of their life”. That is equally comical as it is sad. My XW stated she was 100% completely faithful to OM. Think about that statement, and the head space one has to be within for that to make sense. A faithful loving relationship of 30 years, a family, four children - all thrown away. Her months new boyfriend, the now love of her life and she is faithful to him. Funny and sad.
These tormented people are very lost. They desperately grasp at whatever and whoever they can to make themselves feel better. To feel anything. They are not faithful. They do not love themselves. They, therefore, cannot love anyone else.
It is not uncommon to have subsequent affairs. Their first affair is really illicit and based upon lies and deceit, for it breaks up the marriage. It becomes easier to pretend further affairs are “better” as they are not based upon such impure acts. Lol. Such funny sad desperation. Wholesome marriages have a high enough failure rate, imagine the failure rate of affairs. Some stick to just one, and others go through many. It matters not. For all of those are built upon sand and exist in the shadowy world. All are illicit and carry a heavy high price on an already tormented soul.
And therein lies another big problem. The guilt. The affair and running furthers their pain. These crisis people are emotional driven with no empathy nor regard for anyone else. They will quite literally; and this is actually literal not just figurative; step over their own children to run to their new partner, and selfish chance at happiness. And the guilt compounds.
Each partner is “the love of their life”. They have to be. They need to be. Therefore, the MLCer makes it so. The MLCer has destroyed so much in their path and they have to double down and keep plunging deeper. Remember just how terrible and consuming a crisis is and how desperate a MLCer is to escape. And desperate people to desperate things. Affairs, drugs, spending, illegal behaviours, and such - all running. All an attempt at finding that high; finding some feeling in their blank tormented lives; finding some purpose; finding some relief. Of course, one cannot outrun themselves. And their attempts are fruitless, and the pressures and trauma(s) of their past will not be silenced that easily. And until they tire enough, they will not look within, and they run.
OW1, OW2, the made up feelings towards that person - all a temporary fantasy reality created by a tormented mind and soul. Some find their way back. Some do not. And no one knows the future or anyone’s outcome.
We, LBS, live our best path, for ourselves, and let go. We become.
Experience makes masters of us all.
D
With each call and as time goes by, we keep getting better and better at letting go our expectations and letting our temporary feelings flit. It is perfectly normal for one feel and expect after interactions. Our control is in us letting go of those and returning to our core self again. It gets easier to to step back and view the big picture. Don’t worry, you are doing fine - experience makes masters of us all.D
And for sure we gain experience. You are right about the getting easier part. A few months ago it would have taken weeks before I could give this a place, now it only takes a few days and I realize I don't need him to be happy. Yes, I sympathize with him but it no longer dominates my life. More than ever I realize that he will have to do what is necessary to get his life back on track, that no one can do this for him.
I am glad to see you are planning on remaining in the house during H’s upcoming visit. Be kind and cordial. Friendly not friends. His visiting is no stranger than anything else on these weird paths. I suspect you may learn some things depending on how loquacious H feels like being; the less you say the more he will. Most just can’t help themselves, and they blurt out. Keep boundaries when necessary and filter out any projections and blame-ridden justifications - do not take the bait.D
Will definitely do so. I have also planned some activities with friends and family on my own, this way he will have some time alone to spent with the kids.
I also want to share a bit of the actions I see the last weeks. His behavior has changed since his last visit. I have not heard or seen the anger, the monster behavior so far anymore.
There is even a serious change in behavior towards our children. In recent years, H has been very focused on their school performances and it was never good in his eyes. He was always very strict when their results were a little less and also the school reviews were hell for both myself and the teachers as he was always very informative, used difficult words to express his own cleverness and regularly thwarted the teachers.
In fact, when they received their last performance in December, it was so bad that he bullied all 3 kids over the phone to the point that all 3 cried. It was then that my eldest was so angry with him that I told him to call back to his father to express his feelings which he did.
Last week there was another performance review.
What a change ... for the first time in 4 years, we had a pleasant review. It was online, he also called in and openly congratulated each of his sons and even thanked the teachers.
He also calls the children twice a week now. Sometimes even separately to each of them, which he never did before. I am pleased to see this, hopefully he continues to build on this positive behavior.
Things are also friendly between us. When he calls them and I am nearby, I always say hello briefly and we do some small talk.
I also know that last week he called his father with whom he has not had any contact for more than 6 months now. He has asked him to be more frequently in touch with each other again, also confirmed to him that he is seeing an IC and that the process is not easy but realizes that this is what he needs.
I was surprised to see the thread of Grace21 today. I was attracted to it and took the time to read the whole story.
It felt good to read this.
I was also very moved how the same people that I now meet here regularly have assisted her so well all the way through.
DnJ, Job, Gerda, Dejavu6, OwnIt, Kml and so many others. I want to reiterate how deeply grateful I am that this forum exists and the lessons we are learning here on how to deal with this exceptional situation.
Only the fact that you can express your feelings is very important in itself, but also the fact that you are assisted with advice and action is more than I could ever expect.
Anyway, I wish all of you a nice Easter week. If I need some help when he is here next week, which will most probably be the case, I will not hesitate to reach out to you.
Hello Eagle
You sound great my dear. Strong and grounded.
The difference in H’s behaviour is pretty interesting. How he approached and conferred during the performance reviews is quite a change. And it is good to see him calling and talking to the kids.
It is also interesting to see H reaching out to his father. Most folks have unfinished business with their parent(s). We all must rebel a certain amount as we stand on our own feet, leaving adolescence and entering adulthood. One usually at some point makes peace and seeks to repair from their rebelling.
A crisis person has their past trauma(s), present rebelling, and so many other transgressions to make peace with. They have to start somewhere which is from the least to most significant person and the hurt they inflicted. From pets, friends, parents, kids, to spouse. (More or less the order). H is talking to his kids and to his Dad. He is even behaving nicely during school conferences.
You wisely know H’s path is his to travel, and are letting him. Keep it up. He will most likely turn more to you in the next while - if he has it in himself. Dig for patience my girl. Pressure-free and let him lead his path. All while you live/love your life.
I’m glad you found and read Grace’s thread. She’s a great gal and one heck of an inspiring person.
By the way, do not sell yourself short in that department. You are doing really well and quite the inspiration also. Exceptional situations birth exceptional people.
D
You sound great my dear. Strong and grounded.D
Thanks DnJ. I feel very strong indeed. H arrived last Saturday. When he arrived he gave me a firm hug and a kiss on my forehead and also brought a small present. Nothing special, something I normally ask regularly if he comes over but since some time now not anymore seen the current situation but he brought it anyway, without me asking.
Strange how detached I feel now. Even the hug didn’t give mixed emotions, it actually didn’t do anything. The only emotion I had was compassion, definitely because of the way he looked. Old, skinny, tired.
I know now the meaning of full detachment. For about a year I thought on regular basis, now I’m there, I’ve reached that level, but I was not. It is difficult to explain but you will know once you’ve reached that stage. That’s for sure.
You wisely know H’s path is his to travel, and are letting him. Keep it up. He will most likely turn more to you in the next while - if he has it in himself. Dig for patience my girl. Pressure-free and let him lead his path. All while you live/love your life. D
H did not share anything yet and I’m not sure he will this week. I see a lot of depression in him, (sleeps a lot, not active at all, signs and complaints of illness) but also still a bit of running behavior. But most important, he is friendly for now. Hope he stays that way the whole week.
Some questions for which I seek advice:
1/ I have a very close connection with his family and they know the situation very well since they have experienced his behavior several times over the past year. I also still see all of them on a weekly basis and they have been a huge support. My BIL and SIL now asked me to come over and have lunch this week with H and kids and they would prefer to have me there as well. I would like to go. Would send a text message to H (then I don’t confront him with the message f2f and he can think about it): Hey ... and ... asked us all to come for lunch next Saturday with kids. Would you like to go? If you prefer to go alone with kids, not a problem. Just let me know.
2/ Divorce: he hasn’t mentioned anything as yet since 2 weeks. Most important decision to make. Him buying me out ref. the house. He requested for a loan in our home country but the banks denied it since he doesn’t live here anymore.
He then told me he would try to get a loan in the country he currently lives but I did not yet receive an answer. Should I ask for it? I would like to know since we need to sell it then and now it is the excellent timing for it to put on it on the market.
I simply want to keep things going. I have reached the level of being OK with or without him.
You are doing really well and quite the inspiration also. Exceptional situations birth exceptional people.D
This sentence made me feel so happy, you can’t imagine how much!
Hello Eagle
Glad to see H’s visit started out nicely. How long is he planning on staying?
Indifference, that feeling of nothing, is a weird place. Detachment uncoupled your emotional responses from H’s emotions and actions. Indifference attenuates your emotions regarding H; attenuates, lessens, not erased. In that void of the somewhat numbness toward H, other feelings will look larger than they really are. Something to consider while walking your path. This flows directly into finding, fixing, and following our beliefs and values.
Next Saturday’s lunch invitation. You got an invitation, did H as well? Either way, gently, maybe during lunch, tell him you are going. You are living/visiting under the same roof. Approach it like he is going to say yes. As if that is how it will be. Most times we can lead - gently - by just approaching things clearly without the vagueness. Don’t worry, if H says he is not going, change gears and continue going forward.
Indifference. There is no need to walk on eggshells. He is there, talk to him face to face. A text message - which has valid uses especially when not immediately in person - while in the same household presents one of two different views. First is that you are timid and do not want to upset him or rock the boat. The second view, has such a message looking passive aggressive, like something a teenager would do; text from the living room so they don’t have to talk to you.
Neither of those is what you want to portrait. And neither is the actual case. So talk to him. If he doesn’t like it, fine go on the visit without knowing what he is doing. Remember, H wanted to stay at the house during his visit. And he is currently being pleasant. No need to borrow trouble.
The divorce discussion is along the same lines. H chose to visit under the same roof; the ideal place and time to discuss certain items. You want to proceed with obtaining financial security and protection, from last we discussed. Unless your view has changed, proceed.
Of course, not at the same time as the visiting discussion; H and pressure do not mix. Lol. These two items are needed discussions and not relationship talks. Keep emotions out of it. Find your indifference and be mostly business-like. And one can be compassionate and kind, while getting business done.
I’m sure you will do fine.
And glad to see you so happy!
D
Glad to see H’s visit started out nicely. How long is he planning on staying?D
Haha, sometimes a person should better not speak too soon...the first signs resurfited yesterday (very, very quickly irritated by children's behaviour, can't handle much), but overall still OK.
He is staying until next Monday, so 10 days in total.
In that void of the somewhat numbness toward H, other feelings will look larger than they really are. Something to consider while walking your path. This flows directly into finding, fixing, and following our beliefs and values.D
Thanks for that. I will definitely take this into account
I asked this morning in regards to the invitation at his Brother's house and he simply said OK. Nothing more, nothing less. So he is coming. I'm actually not surprised because very few times he went to family (even his) with kids alone since BD. He always prefers I'm there as well. (I guess he needs the strenght?)
The divorce discussion is along the same lines. H chose to visit under the same roof; the ideal place and time to discuss certain items.D
I guess I will need to ask for a timing to discuss these things since kids are there most of the time.
Will wait some days and ask towards the weekend. Not because I have fear, simply because I don't want a stressfull situation around the kids since you never know how he will deal with it.
Have a lovely day!
Strange how detached I feel now. Even the hug didn’t give mixed emotions, it actually didn’t do anything. The only emotion I had was compassion, definitely because of the way he looked. Old, skinny, tired.
You sound in a zen place. You say you're okay with or without him--I suspect he's already lost his chance. Sympathy isn't exactly what he'd want you to feel, if he were hoping to pitch, "Hey! Let's get back together."
It is time for an update since we have a lot to share again. It seems like I'm keeping a diary here and also get some top advice which is so much needed.
His mother came to visit him on Wednesday. Of course I was there too. The relationship between him and his mother has always been a love-hate relationship. This is the same with his brothers and sister, but they have distanced themselves from her for some time and openly speak how she really is like. He has also recognized this for a long time, but partly due to his crisis, he has enormous difficulties facing this. He does talk to other people about knowing who she is, but there is no mentioning of her and his feelings towards her directly.
She talks towards her son in the following terms: how good you look today my dear, what a wonderful sweet boy you are, you are the best at everything you do, etc. In short, no normal behavior to act towards an adult son. However, she only does this with him, not with her other children, only with the yongest sometimes. (very strange situation actually and very difficult for outsiders to act upon)
His sister recently told me that he has become the person he never wanted to be - his own mother. That they are very much alike now...
The trauma he has to deal with can clearly be found there, that's one certainty.
That same evening, when she was there, he again lashed out at our eldest son. I've always taught them (after reading here so many times) that when H says hurtful words to them, they should just get up, say they're going to another room and not argue with him. My son was wise enough to do this, my H told him to stay seated, my son said firmly but politely that he was not going to do this because of the way he was addressed and still left. What a strength. I was so proud of him and told him afterwards.
MIL sat there and looked at it, a situation I know she always looks forward to very hard, to be able to tell later to anyone who wants to hear about it. I told him briefly that I do not tolerate such behavior towards the children and that we would still talk about it, but not while MIL was there.
On Thursday I did recall this behaviour (maybe I shouldn't but I still did) and meanwhile raised some issues about the divorce (especially with regards to the financial aspect). Also about the house, that I would like an update about whether he would purchase or not, that otherwise we will have to proceed with the sale of the house.
Result: spewing, angry H. Made statements like "force me to sell it, you can do that you know", then about the fact that he is under the assumption that I am far from over him, that I still want him but he does not need me anymore, that he would never want me back, etc.
I stayed very calm and polite and said that I no longer want R talk because there is no R anymore and that I just want to handle everything financially. That I am a happy person and that I want nothing more then to settle everything in an adult and polite way, a must in the interest of the children as well.
Next day received several very friendly messages etc. So clearly knew that he had crossed the line again. Just politely answered back.
Saturday visit at BIL (is his brother) and SIL. 2 fantastic people. H was very happy to be there and showed himself (up to a certain point) from his best side. However, the booze flowed freely and he was completely wasted by the end of the evening. Just before that talked about MIL openly, all 4 parties together and we were all on the same track. H also confirmed her manipulative behavior.
Especially SIL has a very difficult relationship with MIL. I can put everything in persective and leave it more behind a little faster but SIL has openly said to her own husband and to us that MIL is a very very bad person because of what she says and does, that she understands that it is their mother but that she had reached some limits. MIL always talks badly about other people to come out well herself, she even goes so far as to do this continuously about her own children, children-in-law and grand children, but she forgets that these people also speak to each other...
SIL can no longer deal with it, but she doesn't want to start a fight, so she remains silent.
Then later, on the way back in the car, at one point he took my hand and started rubbing it (of course he was drunk). He did this for a while put at a certain point I gently pulled my hand back as it felt a bit uncomfortable.
Sunday last day. During the day he went away with the children so that I could have a day to myself. (surprisingly he had suggested himself)
In the evening he wanted to talk. I had already seen it coming as it was the last day before he left.
(He emptied 1 bottle of wine in ½ hour to be able to talk)
Talked about his visits to the psychiatrist, that he knows himself better than I could ever imagine, that he knows he is a manipulative control freak and a sociopath (his own words) and that he would like his records from the past when he was little to see if this had been diagnosed at the time but that his mother may have kept this from him. (again given the tip where he can request his records, to him to take the action).
That he is unhappy there, drinks way too much etc. just listened and validated.
Left on Monday with very mixed feelings, that much was clear.
As far as I am concerned, being able to keep my distance. Emotional too. Furthermore, took the necessary financial steps that were necessary to be able to continue the divorce based on the little information I got from him the days before. The biggest obstacle is the house. Let's hope this gets settled very soon as well.
In the meanwhile I got a invitation from very good friends to go on a vacation with them to their top luxury appartment in Summer with the children. I kindly accepted it. LOL
Live is good, never thought I would say this again a few months ago.
I was just reading the story of HaWho and was amazed to read that the children had to hide the marriage from her all this time. This must be really incredibly difficult for kids of this age. Respect!
I also read the reactions and could understand from this that an MLC’er constantly rewrites his history in the running phase, clearly lives in a fantasy world and does not admit that he has serious problems he has to deal with, but does it also happen that they show both signals?
That they openly say that they have a problem but that they still function quite well on the outside? (of course do not know to what level as he hides his live very well but sometimes tells something, like ‘just did a diving course during a weekend with X and Y’, his new MLC friends)
The reason why I am asking this is because we called this week for some financial matters, his next visit + holiday arrangements for the children.
He sounded normal for the first time in a long time, was completely sober (otherwise always drunk when he has to arrange stuff with me, or sober but then very cold person) and was very accommodating on all of the above.
His next visit is just before the children's exams and he asked if it might not be better to postpone it for a few weeks because his visit could have too much of an impact on their preparation (which is very much the case), crazy to hear now he finally realizes he has a huge impact on their emotions because of his behavior. Also financially very helpful, do what is good for you, I have so much on my mind at the moment, so much to deal with, I know you will handle everything with respect.
I did not give a lot of reaction, simply validated, but thought this was all a bit bizarre...
Good Morning Eagle
The update regarding H’s visit and his behaviour is very interesting. And yes, the relationship between him and his Mom is pretty telling of where H’s trauma originates. Like most, childhood experiences, one’s where the child was too young to understand or accept what happened and internalizes it. Makes the event about themselves, and therefore blames themselves. This incorrect adoption of blame and guilt is buried deep within the young and emotionally immature person. Many years later, a trigger - an event, a death, a marriage, life, old age, etc... - uncovers these trauma(s) and the associated assumed guilt and such. And thus starts their mad driven running. The tormented individual needed to grow up from when they were emotionally traumatized and stunted; a task not easily accomplished.
H’s path shows many signs of a person in pain, conflict, and confusion at crisis levels. Everyone experiences mid life changes and transitions from one stage to the next. The mid life transition is a difficult one. One has worked their life, raise their kids, loved their family and friends - as they have. Their past is their past. One looks upon their life’s work to this point, with the realization that the sun will set upon them someday, and reflects. If one has lived well, respectfully, honourably, with minimal regrets, and so on, their path is one of ascension and progression towards those golden years (the next transition). One with a less honourable path and more regret-causing history will struggle more. A person with unrealized buried trauma(s) and unreconciled emotions enters into an emotional crisis, their transition being so difficult it becomes a mid life crisis.
The MLCer is completely unable to ascend. They cannot yet face their past, nor even realize the trauma(s). In time, hopefully, they grow enough to see their way forward. See the true cause of those long ago pains. And forgive themselves. For that is really the key and something which no one else can do for them.
That same evening, when she was there, he again lashed out at our eldest son. I've always taught them (after reading here so many times) that when H says hurtful words to them, they should just get up, say they're going to another room and not argue with him. My son was wise enough to do this, my H told him to stay seated, my son said firmly but politely that he was not going to do this because of the way he was addressed and still left. What a strength. I was so proud of him and told him afterwards.
I am proud of you Eagle and your son. Well done my girl. What an excellent lesson and strength to pass on to your boys.
Your eldest, being 16 or 17, is an appropriate age to respond to Dad as well as leave the room. Son telling Dad he is leaving because of the way he is being addressed is good. It define son’s boundary, and enforces same.
I also read the reactions and could understand from this that an MLC’er constantly rewrites his history in the running phase, clearly lives in a fantasy world and does not admit that he has serious problems he has to deal with, but does it also happen that they show both signals?
That they openly say that they have a problem but that they still function quite well on the outside?
The answer is like most things in life - it depends. There are so many factors and variables in a situation, in a person’s life, that it depends upon many many things. Generalizations are possible and even “mostly” accurate, for that is why they are generalizations. However, nothing is guaranteed nor completely predictable.
Your inquiry is at the heart of the crisis. What is the person experiencing inside? We can guess, even have experienced educated guesses, yet no one really knows. Not even the crisis person. That is the level of an emotional crisis. One’s emotions are so out of control that running, that destroying their life, is their only way they feel they can maybe find happiness. They are so desperate, and desperate people do desperate things.
A person in crisis runs - from their past, from their present, from their future. The truth that they cannot see, they run from themselves - a futile effort, for no matter how far or fast you run, there you are.
In the running phase their history is rewritten. They dive into new behaviours, most of which push the boundaries, being immoral, illegal, dangerous, and so on. They are driven to feel something, anything to run from the pain, and to relieve that numb feeling. They cannot love, not even themselves. They lose the capacity for empathy and turn completely towards themselves, not in reflection just selfish fulfilment of desires. Spending, drinking, drugs, affairs and sex, etc. They now place their wants and wishes first and foremost, feeling somehow cheated over the years, and having missed out on their youth. Remember, these lost souls are tormented from long ago pains and are reliving that time over and over and over. It’s no wonder they run from such a hellish torment.
Thing about a crisis and running, it’s not an all or nothing affair. Yes, these people are much more driven emotionally than stable individuals. However, they are not insane. They are irrational. They behave irrationally. They make decisions irrationally. Mostly.
A MLCer can and usually does show both sides. Clear and almost reasonable thinking at times and complete disorder at other times. No one has experience dealing with such duality in their spouse or anyone until they do. An oddly self evident statement, and one that is easily missed. We all didn’t know about “real” MLC until we saw it for ourselves being expressed within our once loving spouse. We all needed to find understanding of such confusing and quite abnormal interaction.
We all have our four “cars” or lanes on our path of life - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. When focused upon one of these, we exist in only that car. Consider intellectual, when one is really thinking logically about something their emotions are not pushing and pressing upon them. When one digs a hole or works out, they are engrossed in that. No problems or pressures, only physical, and afterwards there is usually a clarity from such a break. We only drive one car at a time. (I do have a chapter on the subconscious autopilot of our lives, which I’d like to get written down sometime. Anyhow, consciously we only drive one car.
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This is the same for a person in crisis. They drive only one car at a time. For the most part MLCers are dragged back into their emotional car (much like we are right after bomb drop, before we find detachment) and spend quite a bit of time behind that particular wheel. And that is not a good place from which to make life altering decisions.
The MLCer still has their intellect. Their skill set. Their abilities. They can still work, play a piano, perform surgery, and such. Their life long training is not absent. Most MLCers hide in plain sight among the world’s population, only those closest to them knowing the terrible reality. Lawyers, doctors, clergy, clerks, managers, stay at home parents, whoever - MLC is nondiscriminatory. Gender, race, occupation, married, single, region, and such matters not - MLC can and does strike anyone.
The majority of MLCers can somewhat maintain their professional life, however there is a subset that completely burns down their life. They throw everything aside - kids, work, religion, faith, and so on. My XW is such an individual. Having worked from home, she would have too much pressure on her to remain in that employment having such a tangle of family/work/past all within her crisis.
Regardless, their outer appearance, their mask, is one of a good life. This is directly driven from their need to appear right. They must maintain their fantasy, for they cannot face being wrong. However, us, those that know them best, a MLCer know that we know them. At times that mask slips around us. It takes enormous energies to run and they do tire.
Realize a MLCer is confused. They do see their life and history; as much as they attempt to believe otherwise. They do see their choices; regardless how driven their were to making them. There is an incredible amount of pressure inside them. With time and space, perhaps they awaken to the truth of their reality.
And therein lay the crux of your inquiry. What is the person experiencing inside? All we have is their outer self, which unfortunately is mostly a facade.
H saying he has a problem is a good sign. It is one data point among many. Do not read too much into it. Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.
Is H seeking help? Looking for a IC? Aside from his words, what actions is he implementing?
Running has times of fast and hard running, and times of regret and sorrow, and times of even a more normal behaviour. All are within the running phase of a crisis. Until the crisis individual grows and faces their pain, they will remain.
Consistent, demonstrated, positive behaviour. Not words. That is a good indicator of an awaken. H’s current behaviour shows traits of empathy and caring. And I do understand how confusing that appears to you. How does someone do this? How can someone be like this? They are very confused.
Everything is about the MLCer. H’s actions are due to his driven emotional state or because of how his actions are making him feel. Everything. Is.
That is not some shot at H, it is a compassionate view. H is a sad lost soul and must traverse his path, for any hope of finding his way through his darkness.
His next visit is just before the children's exams and he asked if it might not be better to postpone it for a few weeks because his visit could have too much of an impact on their preparation (which is very much the case), crazy to hear now he finally realizes he has a huge impact on their emotions because of his behavior. Also financially very helpful, do what is good for you, I have so much on my mind at the moment, so much to deal with, I know you will handle everything with respect.
Not visiting because of the impact from his actions, is avoidance. H is running. I do not think H believes or realizes the impact his behaviour has upon the kids. He isn’t visiting because he doesn’t feel like it. Follow his actions not his words. Did he change his behaviour? If it is affecting the kids so much wouldn’t he change?
Leaving you to deal with the finances is him avoiding responsibility. Yes, he will follow whatever deal is made, and wants to remain an arms length away from it. To isolate himself from the actualities of what he has done.
Guilt is funny stuff and gets expressed is all sorts of ways. H is currently very helpful and most likely feeling very guilty. Not unexpected after a visit at the old home with family, friends, and the happiness of his old life pressing upon him.
Your forwarding the divorce proceedings - now is a good time. H is helpful, and that comes and goes, and usually doesn’t last too long.
You are doing very well and asking good questions. This is a bizarre situation to explore and I hope I shed some light for you.
D
Fascinating that he called himself a sociopath. Most do not come to that level of self-understanding. I wouldn't gloss over that statement - I suggest you read up a bit on sociopathy. The Sociopath Next Door is a quick read that is a good starting point. The Psychopath Inside is a fascinating book by a neuroscientist who was studying the brains of psychopaths and accidentally discovered his brain had the same telltale signs. At first he was in denial but after speaking with friends and family and carefully examining his life, he realized that this was correct - his tendencies had just been held slightly in check by a good upbringing and a supportive wife. (One example - he had cajoled his brother into going with him to visit a cave in Africa- without telling him that the cave had been the site of an outbreak of a very deadly Ebola-like viral infection. )
Thank you kml and DnJ for your support. Will make a new thread soon since I’ve reached the 100 replies.
Will give some feedback over there.
Eagle,
Please start a new thread. I am leaving this one open so that you can link up your threads and post your new thread link on this one before I lock it down.