Hello Everyone, Time for a new thread.
Again, if anyone can help with a link to my previous thread, I would really appreciate it.
Ok, oddness abounds around here lately!
My D14 went back to her moms Friday but because she was dropped off at her mom's by a friends mother, my D left her dog with me. I texted her and she asked if I would bring the dog to her yesterday and that her mom offered to meet so I wouldn't need to drive as far. I, of course, said I would do that as my D really loves her dog and misses her when she isn't there. I get a text back from D14 later saying her mother was just way too busy to meet me today (she added a sad face) and that she said that she could do it tomorrow (today). I get a text this morning from D14 asking me to add a few things to the list of stuff she needs and that she would text when it was time to meet her mom. I get a call from W (She NEVER calls unless she is angry). She says she is far away (buying furniture for her new place...again) and wanted to ask if I would do her a favor. Should have known she had some motive. Seems that her father had to leave (he was in town it seems) and he was going to take D14 to school orientation tomorrow and now she needs help. She asked me if I would take D14 in the AM and she would pick her up at 11:00 when it was done. This way she would only need to leave work once. I could also bring the dog. OK, what to do here, folks. The whole reason wifey wanted to leave so badly was because she wanted to be "totally on her own". She wanted to be her own woman, etc. So, here is the first day of school and already she is asking for a favor! But, it was for my D, not my W. So, I tell my w that I would do it. W is all nice and telling me about her dad (I really don't care but validated) and thanking me. Fine, I'm doing this more for my D than her so that's OK.
An hour later I get a text. W telling me that she needs a phillips head screw driver and can I bring one with me! Now, when she left I was trying to be "nice" and put a bunch of tools she might need together for her and I know there were a few in there but no matter. I wait a couple hours and text back that I would do that. She texts that she will leave "my" stool (she took stepping stool from home when she left but was supposed to bring it back) by the front door so I could take it back and thanked me for letting her use it and added a smiley face again!
My W only seems to be nice when she needs a favor. Here she has gone back on everything we spoke about in her D decree, has been nothing but "rotten" about things since she left. Comes into my house when I'm not there and helps herself to things, doesn't bother to even talk to me about changing custody arrangements or even tell me until D just shows up at my door and she asks for favors? She really bugs me. I knew she would have trouble with taking care of things with D14 alone and the first day she is already needing my help. I really don't think she should expect my help like this whenever she needs it. Part of being M is that you are there for each other, she loses this when she leaves, sorry. But I don't want my D to suffer because of her mom either.
Did I do the right thing here? Should I have just let her handle this on her own (this is what she SAID she wanted, to be on her own)? Why the heck is it so easy for her to ask for favors after all she has done? Any thoughts?
Matt,
Your wife doesn't appear to have a grasp on what D is. She is (in my very humble opinion) taking advantage of you. I feel you can be cordial AND firm on things that matter to you. How your w reacts is really on her. You aren't her Handy Manny their to help her with every little hiccup in life.
She wants to be single and find happiness. Let her do it.
Matt,
There is a fine line being kind to another person and being pushed all over the place.
I am thinking that things and issues related to your daughters...sure you can help out for you'll co-parent together. Like it or not...that is the reality at the moment.
As for things like asking for Philips screwdrivers, etc...just say, "It would be best to get your own toolbox for stuff like this as you set up your own home. I am sure you can figure this out."
If she gets nasty, just reminder her that she's made the choice to move out. Sometimes it is okay to throw out truth darts once in a while. Sure, she'll get mad! She cannot just walk all over you any more.
Any progress on the lawyer front? What's up with him?
When it comes to things involving D, you two have to be team mates. It's hard and really tough but it makes sense for you to help out with orientation.
Home Depot or Target are rarely far away from anyone so a phillips head screw driver is something she can handle on her own. That's a favor you don't need to fulfill.
Coparenting isn't a favor for your wife. It's being present for you daughter.
Yup yup agree. With the kids the ultimate goal should be to remain a parenting team. My h says he coparents with xw1 UT that is not true. It is more, like parallel parentibg. He did his thing and she did hers. The result was a lack of consistency and stability for the kids.
Now all the other stuff- she is on her own.
Thank goodness the boards are back!
Well, D14 started school and, as I predicted, it didn't go well. Turns out that since D14 lives within 2 miles of the school, she has to WALK to school and home every day. She has to cross I-35, one of the busiest and most dangerous roads in the country to do so! Let's not forget about bad weather, cold, rain, etc. It's a little over a mile! Now, isn't this something that my wife should have looked into? She told me that D14 would be taking a bus, I guess she just assumed that part. Next up, after getting a list of classes that said she was going to be in geometry, she is now in Algebra I, which she already took and passed at her old school (and she worked really hard to get through it and hated it. It took her sister 3 trys to pass it!). My W texts me and asks me to call her old school and see if it's "accredited" and find out about getting her out of Algebra. I thought she wanted to be a big girl, all on her own!
Now back on the first day of school, D14 texted her sister at lunch time how she HATES it there, she knows no one and everyone is ignoring her. She is coming from a school that goes thru K-8th and has a total of 103 kids and there are 400 in just the sr. class at her new school! Then I get a text from D19, she needs to go to the dr. My W has a HSA account through her work to pay for visits and I'm broke so she asked her mom to help her out. Her mom made D19's boyfriend drive her down and meet her at dr. office today (W was also taking D14 to dr. for school mandatory check up that she waited until after school started to make the appt.). So, later D19 texts back that her mom was giving her grief about not "living at home" and how she won't be able to save money, etc. Well, the only reason D19 moved is because her mother moved 30 miles farther away from where she goes to college and she has no way to get there as she doesn't have a car (something W and I planned on getting for her but that went out the window when W "had" to move out). She also doesn't want to live with her mom because, in her own words "Mom is so undependable" (W would leave my D19 at school for hours and hours when I couldn't pick her up because she was "too busy" and "forgot" to get her time and time again).
Well, the consequences of my W's "need" to be "on her own" are coming home now just like I knew they would. To top it off, I got a call from my lawyers asst. today about how W's lawyer is wanting to "move things along" and she wanted to ask me about what parts of the agreement I didn't like and got it all wrong. The main parts are my having to sell the house after youngest D turns 18 instead of my getting the house in return for not getting any of W's retirements, not disputing 50/50 custody, because I cashed in my retirement a year and half ago to live off of because I wasn't making much at my new job (much more than 1/2 value of home) not to mention my paying off a law suit against my W for student loans that she had before we were married (that happened 4 years ago, before she went back to work) and I wasn't at all libel for since it was from before we were M. I did it because we were going to be together forever, yeah, right.
Just like every MLCer, she was all fine with agreeing to all this before she moved out. I was going to get the house, she was going to keep retirements, all the antiques, the best furniture, I would agree to D14 going to school near her, etc. That all changed when her father started to get involved. She even left me with no money in our joint account (negative bal. actually) because she didn't want to pay all the bills (my lawyer later told me that was not legal but it was too late to do anything about it). She has totally turned on D19, doesn't seem to think that D14 having to lose all her friends, go through her parents getting D'd, going to a school where she knows no one and is 200 times larger than the school she went to all her life, losing the only home home she has ever known at least for half the time (and if W doesn't change her mind, totally lose it because it will have to be sold) will have any adverse effect on her life. Heck, my W couldn't even tell D14 herself that she filed for D! All she told her was she was moving because it wasn't "happy here". I had to tell her her mom filed and she was shocked and hurt by it!
The absurdity of the "reasons" my W has for "needing' to get a D is back in the forefront of my thoughts. I know from what I've learned about MLC, she didn't "choose" to become like this. That's fine intellectually, but in the real world all I see is this person whom I trusted and loved doing things that all her life she swore she would never do. She would say how she knew how bad D was on kids because she went through it and she wouldn't do it to her kids for ANY reason. Now I get such ridiculous (at least to most sane people) reasons why all that pain and hurt are just the price for what she MUST do.
I really thought I was past this but I'm not. I just got a text from D14 saying how she hates it there, she is sitting alone "like some loner" (which she definitely is not!)and how she wishes she could have gone to the school she was supposed to go! It's just so frustrating not being able to do anything about it! I feel like I let D14 down so badly. Her sister got a text as well and she is so upset. She said she wishes she could be there with her to help her. I know that I have to step up and do everything in my power to help get my D through this. She will make it. She will get past this and will be better for it. I have to find ways to give her some more stability in her life outside of school. It just feels like I'm fighting against her own mother and that her mother doesn't care if it gets in the way of whatever it is SHE wants.
Matt,
There's a lot of white noise in the post. I get that you are very upset with the way this turned out. Focus on what you can control.
1) Respond to the L
2) Try to put in writing that W will pay for D14's private school until graduation
3) Put in writing that STBXW will contribute to the house's mortgage and half of bills until D14 graduates
4) Put in writing that proceeds of the house sale will be split between you and STBXW
5) Premarital debt is for STBXW to pay off as it occurred prior to marriage
What else are your non-negotiables?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In an earlier post, you said that your STBXW stayed home before while you had a good paying job that paid all the bills and more.
Can you go back to that old job? It seems to me that you are just treading water in this 'new' sales job.
Help out with only stuff that pertains to your D's.
IF you do the extra things, then make sure they will not get you upset later on.
Let W see how it is without you.
Do you want your W back?
Hi Wonka,
You're right, lots of white noise. Ok, I'll respond to each thing.
1. Responded to the L. Told his asst. that the house was the big sticking point. It's not worth much as homes go. The amounts that I cashed in from my retirement from a job I had BEFORE I was M was more than 1/2 the value of the house.
2. That's something that will be hard to pin down as she is in public school now and W wants to keep it that way. Maybe after seeing how much D14 wants to go back to private she will change her mind but I definitely can't count on that. I will put together an estimate though, which is a good idea.
3.The house is PAID off, no mortgage. It was paid off before my W went back to work from money I earned (but I live in community property state).
4. I would like to show that if my W keeps her retirements, etc. and I get no credit for cashing in mine so soon before W bombed me (less than 3 months) that I get the house. It is need of repairs before it could be sold and much of anything we got for it would be eaten up in those costs. If I live there for the next 4 years, it will need some major repair which, in her decree, I would be libel to pay for because I am living there until D14 is "18 years old + one day".
5. The debt that I paid was from a law suit brought against my W for not paying a student loan. I wasn't M to her when it occurred and there was no way for me to lose any of my assets. My W had just gone back to work and they were threatening all kinds of bad things that would happen and she couldn't even talk to the lawyer about it she was so "freaked out" by it. I handled it and paid it off with money that I had made and banked over the years.
If you added just 1/2 of my retirement and 1/2 the cost of paying off that lawsuit it adds up to much more than 1/2 the value of the house. I should get some credit for cashing my only retirement since I only did so thinking we were going to stay married and it was so soon before bomb day.
The job I had before is gone. The company closed with zero notice. One of the reasons I wanted to be part of managing a company in the same field so that wouldn't ever happen again. This place has great potential and given another year or so I probably could be making more than I had before. It just takes time and a few projects under our belts. I probably could find another job but I would be working for others once again and in sales (at least in the field I'm in, oil and gas, it will take some time to get up to speed).
I know I'm spinning a bit. It just seems like when it rains, it pours, if you know what I mean. My W wanted to be the one to get all D14's school stuff done and never bothered to even tell me about registration, parent meetings, etc. until AFTER they happened or at best the day before. When I would ask her she always had answers but those are turning out to just be "made up" (like she was going to take a bus, that she had all her records from other school approved, etc.). Then there was the fact that she knew a month ago that D would need another eye test and didn't tell me until 2 days before school was starting and expected me to take care of it. Not to mention her changing custody arrangements and not even telling me until D14 showed up at my door (even then she never said a word, her mother told me that I was going to have her another week and then she would spend the next 2 with her mom). It just seems like my W is just willy nilly making decisions about our D and acts like she can just do whatever. The fact that my D14's 19 year old sister can see that my D isn't handling all the change very well while W thinks all is just fine doesn't help me feel good about the future.
Also the fact that until I got the last paperwork from her lawyer, I thought we had made agreements and acted accordingly is also upsetting me as I should have known better. I blame myself for that.
I guess the thing that bothers me most is how out of control I feel. With D14 going to school near my W I'm out of the loop, I don't trust W to do the right things (for good reason) and I'm not there for my D. Something I always swore I would be! And there's nothing I can do about it as I'm at the whim of a person who is acting like a teenager and trying to relive her childhood with her father there this time! There are steps I can take, like going to the school and letting them know I need to be kept informed of things with my D. The stuff relating to the D is also so up in the air as I was so trusting and did so much that I would have never done if I thought D was at all a possibility. Lack of control, feeling betrayed, worrying about my D's because I can no longer count on my W to do anything, these are the things that are wearing on me right now.
Thanks Wonka. I know I wasn't clear and am rambling a bit (a lot!)sorry.
Hi 2B,
Good question! Up until recently I would have said yes without another thought. But as the "stuff" she has been doing keeps piling up and the way she doesn't seem to think that anything she has done is at all hurting ANYONE, how she can't see that D14 is hurting badly, I'm not at all sure if I could ever trust her again. She would have to accept responsibility for her actions and at least acknowledge that she was wrong to do many of them. I don't mean that she would have to say so right away or come to me contrite or anything like that. I understand it would happen over time but she hasn't slowed down at all and seems to be getting worse. So, the answer is maybe. If she could at least begin to understand that the answers to her "happiness" problems lie not outside but within HER, then I would be willing to try.
Ok I totally get your point.
Go Dark/Dim on your W, I would only respond to things that involved your D's or business type things. I think this will be better for you and maybe your M to let your W work out things on her own.
Matt,
But as the "stuff" she has been doing keeps piling up and the way she doesn't seem to think that anything she has done is at all hurting ANYONE, how she can't see that D14 is hurting badly, I'm not at all sure if I could ever trust her again. She would have to accept responsibility for her actions and at least acknowledge that she was wrong to do many of them. I don't mean that she would have to say so right away or come to me contrite or anything like that. I understand it would happen over time but she hasn't slowed down at all and seems to be getting worse. So, the answer is maybe. If she could at least begin to understand that the answers to her "happiness" problems lie not outside but within HER, then I would be willing to try.
It may NEVER happen. What do you think of this possibility?
I guess the thing that bothers me most is how out of control I feel
While you're thinking about Wonka's question, let me ask you another - what are YOU going to do about that feeling?
While you mull those over, think about this - your W left. You didn't get a choice in that. She left but isn't "leaving" per se. You're trying to rationally deal with an irrational person. You feel out of control. Hmmmm...
As for your daughters. It's not uncommon for somebody like your W to favor one of the daughters. Usually the one that doesn't give her as much grief about her choices. Unless they both do, she'll favor one of them. It is what it is, Matt.
Rationally dealing with an irrational person. That should be interesting, no?
AJ
Matt,
I'm sorry you are in a difficult spot. Things WILL get better. That must be difficult for D14. Many changes for her. It is a transition so just support her and remind her that you and her mom love her very much.
Rational.... I know I've written this on these boards several times. However, just for reference I will repeat again. Post BD, my h was sobbing uncontrollably and said he " had no idea how I could function being so rational." Like that was a bad thing. Statement says a great deal. Your w is the same. Don't engage. Take care of yourself and don't worry about whether your W will resent you for taking care of yourself in the D. That's her deal.
Hang in there. Work through those feelings. You can get to a really good place:-)
AJ,
Mr. Bowtie...I'd like to add to your comments here.
Rationally dealing with an irrational person exhibiting irrational thought patterns and behaviors for irrational reasons.
How's that working out for ya?
Thanks everyone,
To answer your question, Wonka about her never being able to start to act in a rational way, to understand the consequences of her actions, I know that is probably more apt to happen than for her to suddenly start to question her actions. I have come to realize that the greatest probable outcome to my sitch is that my W will never be able to deal. I have seen her not able to deal with her emotions since she became depressed years ago. She has no coping skills and stopped being a caring mother long ago. So, I doubt that reconciliation with my W, even just as friends, will ever happen. If what she is doing to her own kids has no effect on her, nothing she has done in regards to me and our M will for sure. She made her choice, to leave her family and M (even as far as changing her last name back to her maiden name after 21 years) and that is that. She questioned her decision until her father came into the picture and told her that she was doing the "right" thing and that gave her the backing she needed from someone else to just go ahead and damn the consequences.
I just got off the phone with my D14. She was crying and telling me how much she hates the school, how she wishes she had gone to the public school here since she would know at least a few people (W refused to even talk about her going here. She insisted that D14 go to the school there near where she lives now). She is angry at her mom for telling her that the kids in this school are "so friendly" (what a friend of her's from work told her who's D goes to school there) how she knows no one and everyone else knows other kids already and won't even talk to her. I did my best to calm her down, tell her that things will get better. I told her about how hard it was when I went to HS and how at first, all the kids are nervous as they are going from middle school to HS and at first they will "cling" to people they know but as things get "normal" they will be more willing to make new friends also. I think it helped somewhat. Now, what she asked me next I can't believe....my W knows that D14 is really upset, that she doesn't like walking alone to school and needs as much support as possible. My D told me that her mother "can't" take her to school in the morning because she has to go to work early (she lives 5 min. from the school by car and D needs to be dropped off at 8:00 AM, how early does she "need" to be at work and why would she not make sure for at least the first week that she could take D to school?) so my D14 asked if I would come and pick her up! 3 days of school so far and now I'm going to be taking my D 2 out of those days when she is supposed to be the one with custody of her this week! Now that there is no bus, I am so sure that this is going to keep happening! My W just can't think of anyone else's pain. While D14 was on the phone with me crying I heard my W in the background yelling at her that she was being "ridiculous" and very non-supportive. How can she not see that all the bad things that our D has had happen (including her parents getting a D!), how she has lost her sister, her friends, the only home she has ever known. That she now has to bounce back and forth between us and live in two places. These things would be hard on an adult! Why can't my W just understand that our D is hurting and needs as much support as possible? Instead she tells her she's "wrong" to feel the way she does. That she is being ridiculous because her whole world has been turned upside down and all because of W's choices!
The fears that I have had about how my W would treat my D14, how she wouldn't put her ahead of her work and the things SHE wants are already starting to happen! This is why I wanted to wait until D14 was in school for a while before deciding on custody. I had a feeling that she was going to act this way. Now you know why I am so worried about my D being in my W's custody! This is just the first few days and her answer to her 14 year old being upset is "just shut up and handle it"! This from the woman who was suicidal just 9 months ago. What do you think she would have thought if I had just said to her that she was being ridiculous and "get over it"? MLC makes these WAS's such narcissists! She wants everyone to care about her "bad feelings" and unhappiness but when her D, with good reason, is upset, the answer is to tell her she's "wrong" to feel that way? Who is that person in my W's body? Whoever it is, I sure don't like her and I doubt most sane people would either!
I'm sorry your D is hurting...I'm sorry you are hurting.
I don't see anything wrong with reminding your D that she has choices. You don't need to belabor it or put down her mom...but, maybe just remind her that she can choose the school that fits best for her. Part of becoming a grown up is learning how to make decisions that work for YOU.
When things feel bleak, it always helps me to know that I have choices. The choices don't have to be huge...but, just to realize that I do have some control and I can take some sort of action to improve my situation.
Maybe, ask her, "So, you don't like this school. What do you want to do about this situation? Do you want to give this another month? Switch over to the other school? Join some group or something to make friends?"
You may be surprised at the great ideas she has herself. As long as you focus on the fact she CAN handle this...as opposed to her being a victim in all of this...she will feel empowered to improve her circumstances. And, that is a HUGE lesson to learn in life.
If this girl is living with a woman who was suicidal 9 months ago, she will NEED to learn some good coping skills...she needs to understand she is NOT responsible for her mom's happiness. IF D would be happier in another school, empower her to make some decisions for herself. Sounds like she feels really torn about hurting your wife...and, if she was suicidal...that makes a lot of sense...what kid wants to feel like she may be responsible for sending her mom into a vortex of despair? Sounds like she could use another set of objective ears...a counselor?
Thanks Heather,
I think my D has been going along with what her mom has been telling her, hoping that she would "wake up" and start acting like her mom again. She was shocked when she found out her mom filed as my W only told her she was needing to leave because "this place is unhappy". She didn't understand that her mom was not just wanting to get away but end the family as well. When she has talked to her friends whose parents were D'd, they tell her how their parents fought all the time or that mom or dad met someone else and my D hasn't seen any of that. It was just that her mom just decided she wanted to end things just because she wasn't "happy". She doesn't understand why her mom is doing what she is. She knows how hard I tried to keep our M, how I was willing to try and can't understand why her mom would just walk away.
I think telling her she has choices may be a very good thing. I do know that her mother will fight me if she were to decide she wanted to go to another school. Her mother wants what she wants and really doesn't seem to care about what's best for our D. My W acts out if she doesn't get her way completely anymore and it will be ugly for sure if my D were to tell her she wants to go to a different school. My W has convinced herself that this school is better than the others because she has a friend whose D goes there and does well. That's all the "proof" she needs because it matches what she wants (to live where her friends do). I really can't see my W being able to accept anything but what SHE wants. (He//, look how she acted about a clock!).
I'm going to talk to my D tomorrow and let her know she does have choices. I just hope that things don't get uglier.
Hi Matt,
You have to stop worrying about if things will get uglier, you know they will. You have to stop letting it control and consume you.
Has there been and legal order on where your daughter will live? If not then I suggest your daughter at 14 tears old will have some input into the decision. I agree that you should tell her she has the right to be part of the decision on where she wants to go to school. Things will get ugly if she chooses you and the local public school over mom and her school. Don't let that fear control you or your support of your daughter. I would talk to your lawyer right away and see what you need to do to support your daughter if she makes this decision to move back with you. Be prepared and informed.
My wife moved a mile down the road into an apartment complex in the same town. My youngest daughter could live with her and still go to the same school. She gave it a try up to the point my wife tried to commit suicide. She has been back in her home since. She has the option of moving back in with her mom. I have encouraged her to spend more time with her mother this summer. She finally told me that she did not want to stay more than two nights a week in the apartment. She said there are to many people there and she does not like it. I can tell my wife is getting angry about it and what she is missing. Yesterday she missed the first day of school send off for our daughter. First time in 20 years. I know she is blaming me for this. She has made her choices and has to deal with them.
I know you, like me, hope your wife will wake up one day. You, I, and the rest on this board need to make that a hope that is tempered by the reality that it has a slim chance of happening. We all need to treat it like winning the lottery, not likely but fun to think about. Our DBing is like playing the lottery in that you can't win if you don't play.
You have to stop worrying about if things will get uglier, you know they will. You have to stop letting it control and consume you.
Has there been and legal order on where your daughter will live? If not then I suggest your daughter at 14 tears old will have some input into the decision. I agree that you should tell her she has the right to be part of the decision on where she wants to go to school. Things will get ugly if she chooses you and the local public school over mom and her school. Don't let that fear control you or your support of your daughter. I would talk to your lawyer right away and see what you need to do to support your daughter if she makes this decision to move back with you. Be prepared and informed.
Matt,
I really like what Life says here ^^^^^^^^
I know you come here to vent...we all do. It's a safe place to unload.
At the same time, when I read your posts, I envision this little bird being blown away in a storm. It's like you are a feather and your W is this hurricane blowing you all willy-nilly.
What's upsetting to me is that your D really needs you right now to be the foundation in the storm...the unmoving, deeply rooted foundation that she can count on when the winds blow. Maybe you aren't presenting the full picture here because of the vent. IDK. But, I've been that kid blowing in the wind. It's a scary place to be.
W is insane. She just is. In almost every post, you spend the majority of your energy describing her insanity, how she is insane, how she will likely continue to be insane, etc...It's serving no purpose in solving the issues that come up.
In every post, we could sum up by saying..."W is crazy right now. She might always be crazy. She is a terrible parent and sorta terrible person. She may always be this way."
Knowing this ^^^^^^ Accepting this as truth ^^^^^^^ Finish the statement with a set of potential actions. What can you DO to protect yourself, stand up for yourself, stand up for D14???
What ACTIONS can you TAKE???
W is crazy right now. She might always be crazy. She is a terrible parent and sorta terrible person. She may always be this way. This truth is challenging, scary and overwhelming....BUT, I have power. I can protect D14 and myself by _____________________________________________
-Calling my attorney and meeting to explore options
-Inviting D14 out to dinner so we can quietly talk and I can get a better picture of her emotional state
-Insist that D14 gets counseling
-Consult with attorney about what COULD happen if I insist D14 moves back in with me
-See a counselor myself to work through the anger and feelings of powerlessness
-Read a book on parenting kids through divorce
-Join a divorce group....The point is...There are endless actions you can take to empower yourself. I'm sure you have taken some already and haven't posted them.
But, let me reiterate...IT IS VITAL THAT YOU GET YOUR OWN SHID TOGETHER AND BECOME THE FIRM FOUNDATION D14 NEEDS RIGHT NOW. LET
HER VENT. ALLOW HER TO COME TO HER OWN CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HER MOM. LEAD THE WAY MATT.
Sorry to be so harsh...but, I'm sure you will return the favor at some point :-)
It's OK Heather, I don't mind "harsh".
I've done some of those things. My lawyer told me that unless my D14 tells the court that she wants to live with me, there is nothing I can do about keeping her with me. Unless I can prove my W is crack head AND smoking it with my D, the court will give HER custody or at best 50/50 split. Just how it works in my state. I have spoken to her about it and she insisted that she wanted to try 50/50 and this school. I know it was because of what my W was telling her. She has been manipulating D14 from the moment she moved. I have read numerous articles on the web about parenting through D. The thin is, because my W insists that D has no negative effect on kids, she refuses to listen and tries to constantly say that i'm over reacting! I'm trying my best to keep things even, the one time I just asked my W about a clock in front of my kids and she made a scene that really upset both my kids (and my W's best friend for that matter). If you could have seen the look on her face...it was why I stopped and told my W to just leave!
I live in a smallish town a very "country" area. I have tried to find a D group and there just aren't any! Not even any Meetup groups with D themes. I know it sounds like I'm not doing anything but I'm doing what I can. If I try and get custody without my D14 saying that she wants to live with me, my W could try and limit my time with my D14 if I fail and the way the courts work around here, she may just win.
I have to get ready for picking my D up and work, so I have to go for now. Thanks Heather. Don't worry about being too harsh. I'm sure I need that at times!
No! I don't get the impression at all that you are doing nothing! Really. I get impression that you expending a lot of energy looking at the insanity of the situation as opposed to making yourself sane.
Keep up the Good Fight Matt. YOU can do this!!
There's a gospel song I love, love, love..."I'm not Tired Yet." It's on Youtube with the Mississippi Mass Choir.
Keep going, keep running, keep being there for your D, keep believing that tomorrow is better than today, trust this is for a reason, keep encouraging your D and telling her she can handle it!!! She can. Trust she has what it takes to figure things out, let her know that you have her back...Remind her that anytime she needs to move home, switch to the other school, do WHATEVER it is she needs...YOU WILL HAVE HER BACK.
Trouble is an incubator for greatness. Don't pray the storm away.
Hi Matt,
Sometimes it is hard to see the forest through the trees. You wrote," I have spoken to her about it and she insisted that she wanted to try 50/50 and this school." She will have a full week of school. You can ask her how she feels now. You can offer her the option of still doing the 50/50 split but with her trying the local public school in your town. Tell her what ever decision she makes, you will always be there for her.
If your daughter says she wants to go back with you and go to the local public school I would talk to your lawyer about getting some temporary orders in place till the divorce is finalized. Get this started before you move your daughter to the local school. this way you will show you are trying to support your daughter while also doing it legally in a way that you wife can't snatch your daughter back to her place.
You need to start pushing what you feel is right and not get blown around by your wife. You need to steer your ship and not let her do it. You need to let go of your marriage without anger. The anger is what will keep pulling you back into her storm. Blame the depression for her actions and get angry at it. At least you know it is a disease that is out of control within your wife right now. Focus on that and not the person.
Thanks Heather and LT,
Picked up D14 today and took her to school. She was still upset and I told her that she doesn't HAVE to keep going to this school. I told her that I will do whatever I can to help her whether she stays at this school or wants to move to another school. She said that it was "too late" (I'm sure that is what her mother is telling her). I explained that people move all the time and it's still really early. I am starting to get an idea of what her mother is telling her from her responses! She said "Well it will just be the same at any school" I told her that if she went To X or Y schools, she would at least know some people there and have friends that go there. She said that's true. She also seems to think that if she were to go to a different school she couldn't stay with her mother. Again, I'm sure what her mom has told her is that the other schools are "too far away" and that she wouldn't be "able" to take her which is ridiculous since I will be having to drive her 30 miles when she stays with me! I explained this to her saying that all the other schools are in the same direction as her mothers work and she would just as easily be able to take her as I am able to take her when she's with me. I'm not sure about this yet but from the way my D is acting, my W may be telling her that if she doesn't go to this school she won't be able to stay with her during the week at all. (Not sure of this just yet, it is just something I'm getting from her expressions and responses)
While at the house I noticed a bunch of forms from all my D's teachers about how to contact them and about the class, etc. They were addressed to "parent or guardian". I am her parent! I should be getting all those forms as well! My W should be making sure I get copies and if she won't I will need to contact the school to make sure my D gets two of everything so I can get copies! I took pictures of them while I was there so I can get the info at least.
I noticed that my W had a bunch of photos put up around her house. All of them were her father and his wife or the kids. She had just one picture of her mother, the woman who raised her without her father. Here is the man until very recently didn't give a rat's butt about her and now she is totally obsessed with both him and his wife...the woman who broke up her family! Who was having sex with her father while pretending to be friends with her mother AND her! While I was looking at them I asked my d if there were any pictures of my MIL or her side of family. My D rolled her eyes and said her mom has been going around calling her dad's wife "mom" and telling people that her "mother told her", when D14 asked if she meant my MIL she said "no, not Ne-Ne, "____"(name of dad's wife). My d said "If Ne-Ne knew that she was doing that she would be so upset!".
More indication that my w is trying to "replay" her late teen years, this time with her dad in her life and "caring" about her! Well, that's her chit. Just something that I now understand is the driving force behind her MLC journey. I really believe that very little of what drove my W into her MLC had anything to do with me or her M. She has always felt she missed out on having a father in her life and when her father was diagnosed with cancer and told her that he wanted to "make up" for all the bad he had done her, she felt she had another chance. She wanted it enough to allow him to set the terms (just her, no husband). I think what drove her into her depression was when he first said this it was no husband, no kids. He was smart enough to drop the kids out of the equation when she started her MLC and to her, if she could have her father in her life it was worth losing her M. Not that any of this matters. Knowing why doesn't help, especially when the why is something I have zero control over. It's such a shame that a person as selfish and evil as my FIL is able to get what he wants from his biggest victim...very sad.
I know that as long as my W knows that, when it comes to my D's, I will do whatever I can for them. That she knows she can blow off her responsibilities towards our d's and that I will come to the rescue, she will just keep doing what she has. That is she wants custody but doesn't want the fact that she has her D to stop her from doing what she wants or have any impact on her work. She doesn't want to have to do the work that comes along with having a teenager, to deal with the school when things come up, to take her places, schedule around the things that she needs to do for her (like when she goes into work), to deal with the fact that our D is in pain because of her choices. No, she just thinks D14 should get over it. I feel like I'm allowing her to still have the benefits of having a H to "help" her when she needs it but none of the responsibilities of actually being married! I need to find a way to be there for my D but not enable my W to just not take care of her share of the responsibilities of raising her. This is my dilemma. I do know that if my W's attitude of telling my d14 to just "buck up" and get over it, or minimizing the pain she is in because she doesn't want to deal with the guilt that comes with knowing that she caused much of that pain continues, it is not going to help my D deal with things and could cause her to act out or become depressed or any number of things! I am starting to think that my D may be helped by some IC. This morning as I was taking her to school she complained about feeling "sick" and not wanting to go. Of course she feels sick, she hates going there and knows she is in for another day of feeling lonely and left out and over-whelmed. Whether she needs IC or not I'm not sure but I am sure the way to handle it isn't telling her to just get over it like my W is doing!
All I can do at this point is be there for my D14 (and my D19 for that matter). To make sure they both know I am here for them and won't just blow off or minimize their feelings. To make sure I stay sane through all the chit I'm going trough from the D to the IRS to my job worries to GALing (which I haven't been doing a good enough job with the last couple weeks!). The reality is that my W has become a teenager with the power to really mess with my D's lives and while that stinks and all, it's what is and I must find a way to deal with it.
Matt,
My W should be making sure I get copies and if she won't I will need to contact the school to make sure my D gets two of everything so I can get copies!
No. She is not responsible for documents getting to you. You are responsible in reaching out to the school and inform them to include you in their mailings. It is up to you to determine how involved you want to be with D14's school, teachers and administrators.
Have you thought about calling the private school and explore options for D14? I know that private schools set aside scholarship/funds for students with low income to attend the school.
Have you thought about calling the private school and explore options for D14? I know that private schools set aside scholarship/funds for students with low income to attend the school.
When our neighbor lost his job, the private school the kids attended allowed them to continue on at a reduced rate...$6,000 per child marked down to $350 for both children...for the year.
It's worth asking.
Hi Wonka,
These aren't mailed things that I'm talking about. These are things that are handed out in class. And when I said "..so "she" could get them to me..." I meant my D14 when she comes to stay with me, sorry I wasn't more clear.
I'm spending the day today trying to figure out why they put my D into Algebra I again and not geometry like she originally had until some whiz at the school asked if she had taken a TAKS test (state tests here in TX taken in certain grades). She didn't but took the private school equivalent (CTEP) and was in 80% in math compared to public school kids (did better than more than 80% of public school kids) so she is qualified to take geometry! At the same time I'm going to try and find out how I can be kept in the loop with everything that goes on as well as her mother. I planned on making copies of everything she brings home when she stays with me to give to her mother. When I asked my W to do the same she refused.
As for the private school, I still need to pay off part of my oldest D's tuition from last year! When my W left I could no longer use all the funds from my job (if she hadn't left it would be paid off). I had planned to use our tax refund but that is being held by IRS because of audit and it's looking less and less like I'll be getting anything back at all and will most likely owe a bunch! So, until I can get that paid off my hands are tied with that school. Reality is that if my W hadn't left it would be done. So sad but of course nothing that I can change and now that my W's attitude is that even if we could afford it, she doesn't WANT to pay for her school anymore (she said she wants to save for her "retirement", she's only 47 and has a 401K but not enough I suppose) I would need to force her through the court to pay her part or find a way to pay the total cost myself. Like I said, she has totally stopped thinking of what's best for D14 if it in any way "puts her out".
Since this is first week, I'm only now starting to find out just what I need to do to stay involved more. I'm learning just what my W is willing to do (not much) and what I will need to do. I just have to keep up as I find things out.
Since this is first week, I'm only now starting to find out just what I need to do to stay involved more. I'm learning just what my W is willing to do (not much) and what I will need to do. I just have to keep up as I find things out.
Yep, that's part of it, Matt.
Schools are well versed in broken families. They see a lot of this type of stuff and have allocations made for it. I went through the same stuff.
Part of this, and only part of it, is that your family is learning what the actions are associated with breaking up. They take time to learn and adjust. There will be more, but you will handle them appropriately. It's in your nature.
That said, just be on the lookout for your W crossing the line, like she did with the screwdriver. Develop a rule for dealing with things as they arise, such as if it helps D, then let it be. Evaluate that carefully and dispassionately.
It'll help you to not go crazy with anger toward your W. She's not the person you knew and has no way nor intention of doing things that you think are appropriate. That's a given. The question that will come up is how you are going to handle things and how they will affect your daughters in the long-term. Everything else is just noise, Matt. Stop being surprised by your W's actions and expect them to be like this. Expect them to be self-centered. Expect her to try and get the kids on her "side" and to be harsh with you if they won't go along with it. You can handle that. Don't try to shield the kids from your W's actions - rather help them process it and get through it.
I can tell you that even all these years later, my ex and now her H are still trying to pick fights, favor one child over the other, etc. Some will "wake up" but many don't. So the question becomes how YOU are going to handle things.
Let the small stuff get to you and you will get worn down. You will cause more damage than not. You'll bring unnecessary pressure on yourself.
Keep doing what your doing, but stop letting it get to you. That's a conscious effort you need to make. It doesn't just happen unless you're nuts-o.
AJ
yay for movement on the geometry front! That's great news!
I just wanted to make an observation about your W... one perhaps you've already made.
I think a lot of women struggle with knowing the difference between self-care and what your wife is doing which is not giving to anyone so she can care for herself. These are two VERY different concepts but fed up people sometimes get them confused. Self-care is our responsibility so we can take responsibility and fill our own wells so we can continue to give. The other is selfish and devastating to children (and spouses, clearly) and gives the impression that the only person who matters is the one who doesnt' care anymore. I think your W *thinks* she's taking care of herself in a healthy self-care kind of way but she's missed the point entirely. She's emotionally abandoning her children and a part of me feels like she's not seeing that like she should. That's frustrating for sure.
Keep being the involved and in-the-know dad. Keep communicating well with your kids and being grounded. Your kids need that a lot.
Thanks AJ and Ss,
I think you may be right Ss. I also think that her father is one of those people who have always been very selfish (his history shows it in spades) and he encourages her to be much more selfish and even tells her that it gives her "power", something that he has been doing all his life. He enjoys controlling people (a C that he and my MIL saw when they D'd said that he was the best example of a sociopath that he had seen in his 30 years in the field) and has total control over my W right now. Even my kids have noticed this and are upset by it. When my W went too far in her "self-care" in the past her mother or friends would help her see what she was doing. With her father, he does the opposite, giving her permission to go too far with others but at the same time keeping control over her. It's a dance I have seen between them in the past but now that she spends more time with him than anyone else, it's out of control. When my W first started to reconnect with her father, she went out of state with the girls to help with her grandfathers memorial service. She had been there for almost a month when I flew in for the service and visit. When I got there I found my W acting awful. She was ignoring her kids 11 years and 7 years old at the time, leaving them alone all day to do things with her father acting like a little girl visiting her dad. She was mean to them and insulting to me. It got to the point when her father excluded her daughters and me from a dinner party he had for my W (there was room for over a dozen people, just not me and his grandkids! He asked us to just stay away and we all could eat when "they" were finished!) and my W just let it happen, the next day I told my W I had had enough and was going to leave with the kids and she could stay as long as she wanted, I had enough. Of course she talked me out of it. It was a few months after that trip that my W became depressed.
My girls have said many times over the years and even more so lately that they hate the way their mother acts when she is around her father. She gets mean and uncaring. She is selfish as well. I think my W is in pain and wants it to stop badly. She feels like this is more important than taking care of her kids but also knows when she goes too far. When her father is around, he gives her "permission" to be as selfish as she wants by telling her that it's OK to act that way. It's a very sad situation but in the state my W is in, one that no one, not even even those closest to my W like her mom and relatives can get her to see. The fact that her father is very sick and she is worried that he will die soon isn't helping either. It gives him even more control over her and boy, he does use it! When my D19 saw him for the first time in a while, the first thing he said to her was "This is how death looks" (referring to the fact that he is very thin and pale from chemo).
I know that until he is out of the picture, either going back to the state he lives in or he actually does die, he will continue to influence my W to continue to go too far. Until one of these things happen ( i have a feeling he is setting her up to go back to where he lives when his treatments here in TX are over which is why he has been encouraging her to D, that way there won't be anything in the way stopping her) I really don't think she will stop acting the way she has.
Of course all this is meaningless as there is nothing I can do. At this point all I can do is try my best to deal with the consequences of my W's action, try and keep my D's from as much harm as I can and hope that someday my w will be able to stop and realize that she took it all too far.
Matt,
IF...that's a big IF...your W decides to move to Florida with her father any time soon/down the road, you're gonna need to step up for D14 to fight for her right to stay with you in Texas.
Oh, yes, I've already thought about that one Wonka. One of the reasons that I've been hesitant to take action unless I'm sure that my D14 will agree to wanting to live with me before pushing. Right now, my W will agree to at the very least 50/50 split meaning she won't be able to take her out of state. (not Fla, that was just where FIL had his boat, it's even farther away than Fla!). If I push and lose, she may just go for full custody and would be able to take her out of state. Good thought and one that has my somewhat worried. I do know my D14 would not want to go out of state as she really doesn't like her grandfather but her mother could easily manipulate her.
Hugs!!!
Matt, I feel like you are like me. For whatever reason, we just cannot detach from all of our WAS drama going on in their lives. We can't control all the stupid decisions they keep making and we get so frustrated because we see these as stupid decisions where they can't.
I don't have advice...you see where I'm at. I am here for support and listening.
What are you doing for YOU this weekend? I'm learning to ride a dirt bike
Matt & Atsbaby: I agree, detaching is so damn hard.
There is a post mentioned on this board by Zebra, but the link is dead. It's supposed to be a really good discussion on detachment and I've been searching for a summary of it that somebody might have posted, but no luck so far.
Thanks for stopping by Ats and Nitty,
Well, seems like I'm back to taking care of things that my W just doesn't want to or thinks is "important". My D14 called again last night and asked me to take her to school...again! 5 days of school so far and that makes 3 where I have to take her so she doesn't have to have a 20 min. walk! What is wrong with my W that she can't even for the first week, take her D who is so very upset, to school in the morning? How did someone who spent 15 years as a stay at home mother become so uncaring about her D?
I really want to be there for my D but my W is taking advantage of me! I've decided to record every time this kind of thing comes up. It may be useful in court some day!
You don't need to wait for Court, Matt. Have you gotten around to having the separation agreement settled? This way, it can be enforced by the Courts if W deviates from it.
Hi Wonka,
In my state there is no such thing as separation, much less a separation agreement. You are either M or not. One of the things that my FIL told my W was as long as she didn't D me, she would still be libel for my debts, taxes on the house, etc. TX is a very odd state when it comes to D, I'm finding out. It's fairly easy to get a D and all it really takes is 60 day waiting period if the parties agree to everything. With kids involved it does take some extra paperwork but there are zero buffers or rules about cool down periods or counselling for kids, etc. Of course, since my W filed BEFORE she left, she had her lawyer LIE on her initial decree and say we had been separated for more than a month before she filed. When she actually didn't leave until 6 weeks AFTER she filed. It very rare for someone to file before they bother even leaving the family home.
So, basically, until the D is final, how we split custody is up to us. Since I am fighting to keep my home my lawyer has had to try and contact her lawyer to try and see if he is willing. So, until our M is officially over and done, there aren't any "enforceable" custody agreements.
Well Folks,
I am just not dealing well lately. I have zero drive, can't sleep at night (when I do fall asleep I have very vivid, not so good, dreams) and feel like sleeping during the day. I have no GAL activities planned and as it's a holiday weekend and I have no family of my own but my kids (other than my W of course but that doesn't count) not much for me to do as most people are out doing things with their family. My funds are low (not dangerously so but getting there, I really need to get some sales at work!) so I can't do anything that costs too much. The few friends I have are either fairly far or couples and I feel odd with them now. I just can't seem to get a break from the stress. Every time something good happens, my W ruins it by pulling some new, stupid stunt. I find out some new thing about the school my D14 is going to that isn't at all what my W said it would be that I can't do anything about it. Then I blame myself for believing anything she said in the first place.
I know I need to get myself in gear and together. To work on all the things that I need to work on. To stop letting myself get caught up in the craziness that my W is causing, the damage she is leaving in her wake. It's been too long that I've let myself wallow and be a victim. I need to be like Heather and keep moving while at the same time allow myself to feel the emotions, just not let them slow me down. I think it would be easier if I had my D's around more.
I just need to get my head back in the game. I need to just get myself in gear and realize I am on my own and nothing will change unless I do something to make that change happen! I feel like my responsibilities have increased as I can't count on my W to do anything she should for the girls. At least when she was still here I had some control over my D14 and knew she had at least myself around if she needed anything. None of this is new, it's just that sometimes it all just seems to bother me more, like now.
Oh, well. Just venting a bit. I'm going to try and get some sleep tonight and see if I can't get some GAL plans in place at least.
Matt,
Have you tried Melatonin for sleeping? 25 Years or Ellie told me to take more than the 5mg or 10mg dosage usually on the bottles. You can take 30mg or even more if it's not working.
I've been thinking about you. Maybe, tackle one thing at a time? You have so many things going on. Start with the sleep. Just an idea.
Aaaahhhhh....Matt- If we could all be like Heather!
I'm sorry you are so bummed. I get it. I feel that way too sometimes. It breaks my heart to hear you are feeling this. I have a hard time sleeping as well, and I also have very vivid dreams. A couple months ago, when I was in the "fog" I felt like my life was a dream. My dreams seemed like reality, because I would dream about my "old" life. It was so weird; several times I would wake up and it would take a few seconds to figure out which was real and which was a dream.
I get in these funks where I just don't feel like doing anything, but then I hate doing nothing. I felt that today. I thought, "I hate my life." And it's not that I hate it, and I know I have so much to be grateful for, I just don't like this situation all too often. I don't like feeling overburdened by everything and being alone. The things I would do, I don't want to do alone. It is hard to describe, but I just don't know where to go. Which step do I take? What do I want to do? It is definitely baby steps. The new things I do, I usually do enjoy very much. It is just a matter of doing them.
I have become very close with a friend of mine. She has been great. We weren't really close before this, but she really pulled through for me. She was persistent with me and continued to try to get me to do things, even though I said no most of the time. It was just too hard to be around people sometimes. I still find that I don't always say yes, but it's ok. It was hard for me to really let someone "new" in, but it has been a blessing.
Try to find someone to really relate with. It can be difficult, but it is OK to let your guard down.
Tomorrow I am going to be with family for a little bit, but I feel really guilty saying that it is hard for me. I love them and they are wonderful. We do have lots of fun and not a lot of drama, but honestly, I'd probably rather do nothing. How terrible is that? I know that once I go, I will feel better, and be glad I did.
After I got nuked, I went to the dr for ADs. I never in a million years thought I would be on them. EVER! It is sooo not my personality, but I just did not know how I was going to get through that nuclear bomb. I had been through the initial bd, and I was sent backwards and then some with the nuke. I need it to.... geez.... it almost seems like the word here is... survive! Pretty dramatic, huh?
I'm just sharing my feelings and experiences, Matt. Even though we are different, I can relate to some of your feelings.
I guess if I were to help you, I'd say you still need to detach more. Speaking, of course from my bd experience, I can see how you feel. I did not have to do AD with that bomb, and the biggest thing that helped me was realizing that I couldn't control anything/anyone but myself. I even had to let go of my kids a little. My kids are teens, like your d. I had to face the fact that they were old enough to form their opinions and feelings. Although I wanted to control some of it, I simply couldn't. I talked with them and when necessary, told them what I thought from my perspective, but I honored their own feelings about things.
My s did a lot of things I didn't understand or agree with. We recreated our r as a result of the past year. Although I had to draw the line many times, I also had to let him go more. I had to let him learn the school of hard knocks a little more and support him. I had to be there to pick up the pieces. I had to stay calm and look for solutions to problems/issues he had. In doing this, it helped me move on a little more. It relieved some of the stress and anxiety because I realized there was a lot beyond my control.
As far a your w- you just need to check the "out-of-touch" box next to her name. There is nothing you can do to change her or control her. I think you are still holding on too tightly. Even if it is not to the r, it is to your expectations of what kind of mother/wife/person/friend you think she should be. I understand you've seen a different side to her and what she USED to be. Well, say good-bye to her! Maybe that "her" will come back, but maybe not. That, my friend, is out of your control.
To really save yourself from this low point, you need to release her. Release ANY expectations you have of her. Find a way to find humor in it. I know it sounds twisted, and often impossible. But you do have a great sense of humor. Do her actions really surprise you anymore? Don't let her continue to get ahold of your emotions, Matt. I know it is hard because your d is involved. Don't lose your beliefs for what you feel is right for your d. Take actions you feel are right for your d. But some things you may just have to let go and let your d know you are supporting her. I think you may have to follow db with her. I am thinking back to MWD rules for db. The different ways of communicating and being supportive.
Some of it, Matt, you simply have to just let go. I know, easier said than done. I hope I am not coming across preachy. I just really want you to feel better. But trust me, I so get it. I get the same way. I'm just sharing some things that have helped me. I've been there. Heck, I am there. I still get that way sometimes. We will get through this, Matt.
(((((Matt)))))
I agree that you should focus on getting you some sleep. I struggle with the dreaming also, no suggestions there! One of my good friends is a pharmacist and she told me to take Benadryl to help with sleep. She doesn't care for the melatonin, but to each their own!
Tomorrow, go for a walk or go to the park. It's free and it will get you out of the house!
I remember feeling like I didn't want to do anything, especially if it meant being around other people. It wasn't fun. The thing is, you have to FORCE yourself to do stuff. Like Mighty noted above, once you get out you will feel better and be glad you did.
Look for meetup groups in your area. They are a good way to enjoy some new activities with new people. We have over a hundred groups nearby me. Some of the groups I've joined are meditation, divorce support, bike riding, and kickball. But there are so many more to pick from. They usually cost nothing.
What does your exercise program consist of, Matt? If you want to sleep and feel better, you need to exert your body. Find some activities that you enjoy and it will be easy to stick with them. I ride my bike to work, do weight training, martial arts, yoga...
Tell me about your diet. Now's not a good time to eat poorly.
Sleep is very important. I do better with Melatonin and Tryptophan supplements.
But Matt! I hope you are keeping a dream journal. Vivid dreams? Write them down. I get so many insights out of my craziest dreams.
Pay attention to numbers, to people who show up, to how you react. It's your subconscious trying to talk to your conscious self. It's another source of information and it's free!
Thanks Heather, Nitty, Ats, FY, nice to know you all are out there!
Don't worry about sounding "preachy", I needed it! Lots of good suggestions in there from everyone. I can really relate to the dreams of the "old" life. There have been so many times I woke up and it took a few seconds to realize that things really hadn't gone back to the way they were. Talk about a let down! Friday night we lost power here just at dusk. I went out to make sure it wasn't just me and there was a huge rainbow over the house. I remember I always liked seeing rainbows, I saw them as good omens. This time there was no one to share it with or tell to come see. I remember looking at it and thinking it's just the sun through the rain, sad really. Life has seemed to have lost some of it's "magic". Knowing that even the person I have loved and cared for for 26 years could do what my W has done, for no real reason (at least that seems real to me) then the world is much colder than I ever thought. It's darker and colder and less "magical". If my W can become so horrible, change so completely so quickly, even as I did everything I could to be supportive, to do the "right" things what else could happen? Even if I do everything "right" it seems like the wolf is always at the door.
I think this is something all of us here must go through to some extent. The fact that the person we trusted and counted on most could do this, what's that say about the rest of the world? Bad thinking all around, I know. I'm sure in time I will re-find much of my sense of wonder, it's just in short supply as of late.
I think I need some small wins right about now. To do that I have to make it happen. First, more sleep. Next get myself moving (I was working out a lot more than I have been recently. My free pass to the local gym expired a few weeks ago so I haven't been keeping up as well. Time to be make sure I keep up. Thanks for listening and the good advice, everyone. It really does help!
Matt,
There is someone to share it with - yourself. why - because you can appreciate it.
WE as human beings tend to think we need someone there for it to be important.
This road is a hard one, but in traveling the hard road you become stronger, wiser, a more complete you.
There will come a time that life will have that brightness, you will see with new eyes.
Hang in there
Mirage
Matt,
I hope you can try to accept yourself where you are. Everything you are feeling is perfectly normal and a part of this process. You had this person in the backdrop of your life for 30 years? Even if she was unavailable and depressed for much of it...she was there. And, now, she isn't. It takes some getting used to.
You have choices.
You can fill up the empty space with someone else.
Or...
You can fill up the empty space with YOU. Take a deep breath and fill your insides with your own name. Celebrate you. You are one tough cookie and you WILL laugh again and you WILL feel joy again and you WILL feel settled again.
Right now, you are in the pruning stages. Think about an overgrown, neglected fruit tree. Left as it is, it will survive...but, the fruit may not be the best and it may look and appear terrible. Prune it...get rid of the branches that are weighing it down...it may hurt...be uncomfortable and the tree may not rally right away...with some care, though, the tree could be even better than before.
You are pruning your old life...you are shaping the branches and putting the stuff that weighed you down aside...burn it, let it go...little-by-little...you are handling things as they come...the IRS, your daughters, the dissolution/divorce, the job situation...just keep putting one foot in front of the other. At some point, you will turn around and realize, "Hey!! I handled this!! I can do this! I'm going to be ok."
When a single soldier is in the foxhole and surrounded by enemy fire...which it sounds like you are...it's a good idea to call for help/reinforcements, along with building some thick walls/boundaries and/or making a strategy for a retreat to a safer spot.
Question: Is the IRS deal only yours to deal with?? How does W fit into the picture?
It's darker and colder and less "magical". If my W can become so horrible, change so completely so quickly, even as I did everything I could to be supportive, to do the "right" things what else could happen? Even if I do everything "right" it seems like the wolf is always at the door.
The world is as it was before, Matt. The world hasn't changed. You have, or rather your view of it.
It's all about perspective really. While you readjust your perspective and find that the world is a great place, realize that you're going to grieve the loss. You'll have periods like this (withdrawl of sorts). With work, they will get further apart.
Great advice I got during the time I went through the same: even if you don't feel like it, get out of the house. Do something. Exercise. Live.
The time will pass and your perspective will change Matt. You have to work at it, but it will. The back and forth will stop (when you stop it), your expectations will become zero, and you will enjoy your life.
Take the actions now and they will pay off. The mountain you see will become the mole hill it needs to be and you'll look back and wonder why it took so long.
AJ
One other thing...:-)
When I was in the thick of it...the pain, rejection, desolation, despair, etc...
Sometimes, I imagined myself a year or so ahead...imagined my life back to OK and back to settled and full of joy. I imagined myself triumphant over the situation.
Then, I imagined myself talking to a woman who was in the trenches...dealing with a life freshly in shatters...I imagined what I would tell her and how I would explain my path out.
There's a guy out there, right now, living his life...not even dreaming that the bottom is going to fall out. But, it will. Maybe, he will be faced with IRS problems, a apeshid crazy W and two teenage daughters. YOU WILL BE HIS SALVATION...Why? Because you've been there and done that...against impossible odds.
Asking directions from someone who has never been to the area is fruitless...You could be the inspiration that will help one other family survive this tragedy.
Matt, everybody has said everything so much better than I could. I too am struggling with the enormity of this life change.
We must keep remembering that all suffering is temporary. It will move on, like the weather. We are going to ride it out. More will come and go and we will ride that out, too. I am not good at remembering this but I am working on it.
Thank you all so much. You all have such great ideas and it really helps to know that someone out there cares enough to take the time to help.
I woke this morning to my W texting me about money! She makes $8,000 a month and I'm avg. about $2,000 right now and she is all upset because she thinks that using the health savings account (that was full when she left) is still her using "her" money. You know this is a community property state and half that money belongs to me up until she and I are D. I course, she wouldn't see it that way since it's through her work. She starts out asking me to pay for D19's prescription and telling me that she just bought our D14 contacts and put $30.00 into her school lunch card and took both D's to the Dr. and how it isn't "fair". I text her back that I just bought D19 contacts (her mother refused to do it) and that is a lot for me right now. I point out that she has access to the HSA to pay for both girls scripts. I tell her that I need to find out how to add to D14's school lunch card as the web site isn't very good. I said as long as D19's script isn't one of the really expensive ones (she has had $300 ones in the past) that I would pay. I ended saying that when D14 lives with me I'll try and see if she would take her lunch. Nothing bad there. Nothing that she should get angry about. But this is a MLCer so I get back a spew about how SHE had to pay for D14 school supplies, and SHE took her to the Dr. and SHE had to buy her school clothes and that something has to change. Of course, I bought my D14 school clothes as well, my W just doesn't think about what other people have done or are doing. My D14 had all the clothes she needed for school when my W ran away. If she wants to buy her more stuff that she doesn't "need" why should I pay for it? As for my D19, I have done more for her than my W has since she left the house. I have bought her things for her apartment, food, taken her out to eat, bought her contacts while her mother has ignored her or lectured her.
So, I put on my DB cap and texted back this "I understand and I'm not saying I'm not going to pay for her contacts, lunches and stuff. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Just let me know where (D19's) script is and I'll find out how much it is." OK, I was calm, validated her (when I really wanted to take her head off!) and let her know that I was willing to pay for the thing she started out asking for in the first place. So, W texts back "I just think we need to talk and come up with a plan". I haven't responded to that one yet.
I have a feeling that she isn't liking this being on her own stuff. Why does she want to talk anyway? Every time we talked and came up with a plan, she went and did exactly the opposite of what she said she was going to do! She said she wasn't going to a lawyer, a week later she went to see a lawyer. She said she wasn't going to file, that we would just separate and a week later she filed. We came up with a list of things that she would get from the house and then caused a scene because she tried to take something not on that list and I asked to keep it. I told her and she agreed not to just come to MY home and take things and she still came when I wasn't home and took things! When we "talk" she can't seem to keep her word on anything that we agree to so why even bother?
I haven't responded to her last text yet. The one about talking and coming up with a plan. This is what I mean about her always causing more and more stress. I can bet that she was talking to her father and he is telling her that I need to pay more and I haven't done enough. He like to stir things up as a way to control, the a$$hat. I really don't need this right now. I'm just trying to hang on here and the last thing I need is my W starting this chit up today!
Any ideas on how I should respond to her wanting to talk text? At this point I didn't respond as what I wanted to say (about how talking to her is useless as she just does whatever SHE feels like no matter what we agree to) wouldn't really help the sitch!
Don't respond. Or tell her you'll talk with your lawyer about splitting things.
Let it go for today. Get away from the sitch. She knows she's pushing your buttons, don't let her know by reacting. I always tell my kids to step away and come back to it later.
Matt, step away and come back to it later. Go do something outside of the house and don't look at your W's texts or answer her phone calls.
I agree with Ats. You really having nothing else to say today. Step away and take care of yourself.
Her father doesn't make her choices. She does. But if it helps, it is normal to see that dynamic like this in these situations. For me, it was her mother and her "new" friends. It's common to see it like that, Matt.
From experience, I can say you should not respond and that you responded too much already. For your own sake.
Two divorcing parents arguing over the expenses of an adult child? I'm in that situation to a degree, Matt. I get it. I also know that the more silence you create the more you can focus on other things. The faster you can begin to heal. If you create that space and silence.
If you're like me, you may have noticed how she gets more like this when she feels less in control. You may also have noticed the accusatory tone.
Why does she want to talk anyway? Every time we talked and came up with a plan, she went and did exactly the opposite of what she said she was going to do!
Do you know what emotional abuse is, and how it works Matt? Do you know why you're susceptible to it, Matt? What draws you to it?
Your W is all about control and nothing else when it comes to family and friends. You are still in denial about some of that, my friend. But you are waking up to it more and more...
AJ
Matt,
Since a lot of MLCers have short term memories, I'd suggest that you ask W to email you "her plan" so that way she cannot claim that you "agreed" to it if she switches it at the last minute.
No more planning via texts. Do it through email.
You are right Ats and AJ,
I didn't respond to her last text about needing to make a "plan". I haven't heard anything since. I think the fact that she is manipulating things so she can be in "control" is so hard for me to see because it is so not like the "old" W. She has always been "shy" in the past, especially around people she didn't know very well like the other parents at our kids school. She always would say how she felt "left out" with the other mothers when it really was just they didn't know her very well. It is just so hard to see her as the manipulative, selfish person she has become. I think she has always WANTED to be like that but was held back. I and even her kids have seen how she acts so different when she is around her father. She has a total personality change when with him. She has been like that for a long time and the longer she is with him, the worse she becomes. The girls have always hated when he was around not just because of how he acted but how their MOTHER acted when with him. Like the time he excluded me and her 7 year old daughter from a party he was having for "her". There were at least a dozen people but he told me that there wasn't enough "room" for the two of us. (we were visiting him at his home out of state). I thought for sure my W would notice that we weren't there but she just let it happen. It was like she enjoyed that he only wanted HER around after all the years of not caring about her. I understand that her choices are HERS, that she chooses to do the things that her father tells her to. But I also know that all the years of abuse he doled out to her hurt her deeply and having him finally seem to want her to be a part of his life, something she has always wanted since she was 10 years old, is a strong attraction to her. Add that she's in crisis and he's using that fact to control her and she is so suppressible to his crap.
To give you an idea of how awful he STILL is, he has told my D19's cousins that she isn't worth his time, trouble or wasting his money on because she had a rebellious period. She didn't do anything really bad but HE decided she wasn't "worthy". His son has 3 D's. We have 2. Just a couple days ago he told one of his other grand kids that he has 4 grand kids to help pay for college. That means that he is excluding my oldest D19. He has offered to help all his other grand kids BUT my D19. Funny how at the same time, her mother has started to do the same thing! She keeps telling D19 how she is making wrong choices, refuses to help her even though she is able, just like her father. He has total control over my W. She has started calling his wife (the OW that broke up her parents M) her "mother". My D14 is so freaked out by it. If her REAL mother knew about this it would break her heart. Since leaving, she has had little to do with her real mother and my D14 tells me she says "mean things" about her and see's her as a "pain". Of course it doesn't help that her father is blaming her mother now for causing him to not be a part of her life when she was younger (a total lie by the way). Her father doesn't like me (probably because I always call him on his crap and never allowed him to get away with saying the awful things he always did when I was around) and my W knows I don't like him. Anyone who stands in the way of him and her being together, even if only because her father doesn't like them, must be pushed out of the way. It's a sad, ugly dynamic that is really a form of abuse from a man who a IC called "the best example of a sociopath he has ever seen in 30 years of being a IC"!
I have watched her father try (and succeed mostly) to control everyone around him. When his son wouldn't be controlled, he forced him out of his life. He has tried many times to "make up" with his father and he refuses to allow him to be at all a part of his life. He even went to court when his son was trying to regain custody of his D's after a D from a drug using awful woman and testified AGAINST his own son. He could control his son's ex, so he turned on his own son. That's the kind of "man" he is! This is the person my W is taking her cues from. He is teaching her just how to control and at the same time telling her that she is right to act that way! When she is around him, she becomes a 10 year old little girl who doesn't understand why her daddy left her, why he doesn't love her any more and wants that love so very badly. Hence the tantrums, the acting out, the selfishness. MLC's always reach out to others, OM/W, new, different, friends, any family that backs their choices. In my W's case, it's her father and his wife. Both manipulative control freaks who live self centered lives.
None of this matters when it comes to what I need to do. I have to just understand that my loving, caring, W has become a sociopath just like dear old dad. Maybe she was all along but was fighting what she knew was "wrong", that could be why she became depressed in the first place, who knows. Or it could be that who she WAS is who she really is but the wanting her fathers love and acceptance combined with her MLC has caused her to become this way and if she is ever able to "reintegrate", she will see it for what it is. Either way, I have to understand that I can't trust her, that I can't expect her to do anything other than what SHE feels is in HER interest. It's why she doesn't even seem to care what is best for her D's if it puts her out in any way. If I don't step up and protect my D's, no one will. I have to be strong for myself and them. It will be a fight. A fight against the very person I have spent my life loving and caring for. The LAST person I ever saw as a threat.
None of this matters when it comes to what I need to do.
I know you're venting. I can feel the anger in your post. You are stuck on W taking the advice/being controlled by your FIL.
Look at your statement^^^^
Do what YOU need to do. None of us ever thought our S would be the threat or walk away from their families. What are you doing for yourself, Matt? Role model this for your D's. Do what you need to to help support them. Your W is not there for them, she's not there for you. It's not fair, I get it., but teach your girls how to get through this!
Hey Ats,
Yup, that was a vent. Big time!
My D19 stopped by on her way to visit her sister and mother yesterday. She was just going to stop and pick up some things with her BF and their new puppy. Well, they ended up staying a long time and it was nice. Seems my D19 is feeling much more anger towards her mother than I had thought. We spoke about it only because my D19 brought it up. She is very concerned about her little sister and that's the reason she was going to her mom's. At one point I said I may have to sell the house (I live in the only home my D's had ever known until their mother left) because of the fact that my W moved so far and I really need to be closer to D14. That and because my W has made it so I MUST sell it when her sister turns 18 anyway so I may just do it now. My D19 was VERY freaked out about that! She said (in typical teenage way) "I'll kill myself if you do that"! I think she likes the feeling of security she has knowing that she can come and live here with me anytime and doesn't want to be around her mother and won't live with her. We had fun together as we always do and it was great. I needed that time with her.
While she was there my MIL called and told me she made some food for me and that I can pick it up on tomorrow. We had a nice talk and she also spoke with my D as well. It's nice that she is still friendly with me and still considers me part of the family (even while my W says I'm no longer part of her family while at the same time all her mothers relatives keep telling me I am). All in all a better day than I've had in quite a while. It also helps that my D19 and I spoke about my paying for some things like her mother was texting me about and she understands that I'm doing all I can and much more than her mother is. Funny that I knew she would feel this way but with my W getting on me about it, I started to let her chit get to me!
Have a good "Monday" (always nice to have Monday holidays!) everyone!
Matt, your vents are becoming more organized if no repetitive. They tend to do that over time, until eventually you get tired of saying what others won't want to hear. I'm not tired of it, Matt. I'm pointing out what will happen in your face to face relationships, including your MIL, etc.
For what it's worth, I think you are spot on with your assessments if not a little emotionally biased (who wouldn't be, right?)
If you stop expecting her to be different, I think your life will dramatically improve. If you start thinking that she will bad-mouth you, your daughter (the one that doesn't go along anyway), your MIL, your favorite childhood pet, etc as a way to control you (even if she means it at the time) you'll see things differently and it will dramatically improve your outlook and ability to deal with all that is going on. Don't get stuck just venting, is all I'm saying. You in no way should want to become a victim.
In fact, you could have left years ago. You lived with a depressed person for many years. A spouse that wants daddy's approval (he is a piece of work; he should meet my former MIL - they'd hit it off famously I'm sure) and love so much so that she's calling his new wife "mom". What a slap in the face to her own mom.
That's a sign of where she is at in her own life's journey. She's got choices to make and that's that.
What is more concerning, since you're here, is why you aren't jumping up and down for joy at the demise of your marriage? Why your W did you a favor and you're not happy about it. Or why you expect what isn't going to happen?
I think the answers to those questions will help you more than anything at this point. Keep venting by all means, but keep an eye on the next step too.
AJ
Thanks AJ,
Funny thing about why I'm not 'happy" about W leaving..SHE actually said pretty much the same thing during one of her more "lucid" times post B-day. She said that I will probably find out that I'll be much happier without her. I guess it's just that I saw (see?) her depression as something that she has no control over and that, if she could just find a way to get her head right, whether it be the right AD's or IC or whatever, she could go back to being the loving, kind, caring person she was before the depression set in. Before she became depressed, while she was a stay at home mother, she was really a great partner and W. She really seemed to enjoy the time she spent with me and the kids. She didn't let her father interfere in our lives. I remember those years and thinking how lucky I was to be married to my best friend. It all started when her grand father died (the only steady male figure in her life after her father left when she was 10) and her father asked her to come and help with his memorial service. She was there for a month and was a changed person when I went up to join her. That was when her father told her that he wanted to make up for all the bad things he had done. Unfortunately, he also would only do so on HIS terms, those being that she stop "wasting" her life as a stay at home mother, he also wanted her to leave me and the kids for MONTHS to take her on a trip to Europe. It was also the summer before our youngest started 2nd grade and my W was feeling like she was isolated as a stay at home mom and she was home alone as both kids were now in school.
It was a "transition" period for her and we all know how MLC's don't handle transitions in life well at all. A little more than a month after returning from that trip and my W was diagnosed with her depression. She has never been able to recover from this. For 3 years she was unable to do much and when her IC told her she should go back to work that's what she did. Of course she threw herself into work completely and totally stopped being a wife and a mother and instead making her work the important thing in her life. This was also what her father wanted and he would tell her that it was fine for her to not vacation with her family, to let me take care of the kids and everything as what was important was her "career" and "happiness". The harder I tried to get her to be a part of the family again, the harder she pushed back.
When I would talk to her she would say that the depression was like a cloud that followed her around always ready to grab her and bring her down again. She had to keep running, keep throwing herself into her work to keep it at bay. When her father got cancer and she thought he was going to die (he had 1/2 his liver taken out) it made her feel like she was out of time to "make up" with her father and the MLC started in full.
For the longest time I felt that my W was just "sick". That her depression was no different than if she had cancer or something and I should be a good H and help her all I could. There is still part of me that feels that way still, like her MLC is more a product of her depression (and her fathers chit) than anything else. I will say as she has gone farther and farther and pushed things so far past the point of no return, I'm believing this less and less.
We were together for 26 years, all this started 7 years ago. So, the good years still out number the bad 2 to 1. But I now am getting to the point where I can see that the old her is so much less a part of who she is now. I'm also very tired after so many years of trying to be there for someone who just can't be happy in life. She won't get help for her depression other than AD's and has told me that all she needs is to get out of her M and she will be "happy" again (going so far as to say she will be able to stop taking AD's once she leaves...her Dr. said so!). That she wasn't depressed until after she got M so figures that the answer is to end her M, be on her own and doesn't care how she hurts me, her kids, her family, etc.
You make a really good point AJ. I do need to start seeing her leaving as a blessing as I will be able to stop being the care giver, stop having to put up with her chit. But at the same time she is the mother of my kids. One that will be with her 1/2 the time for the next 4 years. At least while she was still at home I could be there and know that my D's were taken care of, had someone there when they needed someone. But I also have to just let that go as well and know that my D will need to learn to take care of herself and make sure she knows I am always there for her, even if I'm 30 miles away.
Hi Matt,
Everything you said is an echo of my own thoughts. I think everyone will agree that it is very hard to stop taking care of and having concerns for someone after you have done it for so many years. I recently found a statistic that about 90% of all marriages where one partner is clinically depressed end in divorce.
My wife has also told me I will be happier without her. I think the biggest stumbling block for us to move in that direction is our concern for our children and the effect that their parents depression has on them. I think if we both can get that house in order our lives can move in a better direction. I am hoping for me that it starts on Monday when I go to court for the filing of a court order where I will have the final say in things concerning our children. My wife signed off on the agreement and it will go into effect at the court. I hope you can get some support in the court system to help protect you children and have some peace.
LT and Matt - I had the same speech from my ex. Later it was anger and all kinds of things. I chalked that up to her dealing with her pain of the divorce. Never mind that she married the OM etc. I don't honestly think she really even likes him to be honest and forthcoming. I think he was a way for her to make the leaving "final" if you will.
But I can tell you that I am much happier without her and her drama in my life. I won't go into detail, but it's been a wild ride. My kids are mostly grown now - one in college and one a senior in HS. Like you, I was the one left behind to pick up the mess with the kids. My daughter is VERY angry and takes it out on me. She has since her mom came back to her and wanted to be friends. Like many MLCr's, that's the opposite of who she was and to the detriment of my son. It's sad to watch knowing that I can't do much for him to change that. I can only help him deal with it. At some point, I'll have to do the same for my daughter.
And I'm tired of it all. Even though she "left" I was the one that had to end the relationship. She's been abusive, angry, making up all kinds of things, etc. Typical, but no fun if you ask me
I've learned that she has nothing to say worth listening to. It's all about her and her feelings. She'll end a conversation telling me how happy she is etc. I just wish her well and move along because I've learned there is no talking to her. Or her H. Together they are really a piece of work to say the least.
I knew I had to be the one to leave the relationship after she moved out. I didn't want to per se. But if I didn't, it would go on indefinitely and the woman she is now is NOT anyone I knew.
I mourned the past. I grieved. I made mistakes in how I handled things. But now, all these years later..? I can look back and see that the hard decisions I made then were good decisions and the right ones. Life is what it is and it's good. For my ex? I hope so, but outward indications would say otherwise.
I'll be honest, I hate that for her. I really do. But it's way beyond my control and influence. I've learned that although I know when to walk away, I don't go willingly. I'm optimistic and loyal. But I've also learned to be realistic and to make the hard decisions and live with them. I have a lot of peace with the way I handled things.
It is my hope that you will as well when you look back on these years. I think you will even if some parts you don't like. You'll come to grips with the guilt of being happy she's gone even though your kids are not happy with it. You'll realize you can't help your W. Sad as it is, she has to want to be helped. Really want help, vs. living off the Taco Bell diet of help that somebody who wants something from her will give.
She'll either come to terms with herself, her choices and her life or she'll become a very bitter person you won't want to be around. You've seen some of that already.
She's dealing with deep-seated issues. Wish her well, protect yourself and your daughters, and detach from the outcome. It'll be best for all concerned if you can do those things. It won't be pretty as she processes things in "her" way, but it will be better in the long run.
It wasn't what you wanted for your life, your daughter's lives, nor your W's life, but it is what this life is. Now you need to deal with it as it is. I think you are well equipped to do so even while you grieve the past you had.
Smile because it happened, right?
Peace,
AJ
AJ,
Thanks for a bit of your timeline and what reactions your wife had along the way. I have had to learn a lot along the way about making the hard decisions and I am still learning. This is her second attempt at divorcing me. Based on what I learned during the first attempt I had my lawyer file a counter claim immediately after I was served so I have some control and can decide to keep it going even if she drops it again. The parenting agreement that is about to be filed in the court has a lot of hard decisions that I am sure make her very angry with me. I have to live with these as it is best for my daughters. I think both Matt and I appreciate your guidance based on your experiences.
Hi Matt, Just dropping in as I have been so busy.
Funny ...
A few months ago my h also mentioned that we would be better off without him. What is this? An admission of guilt/ inadequacy? Self consciuosness re their shortcomings ?
I noted that more than one MlCer said it ... they seem to be aware of 'something' deep down inside.
Matt, I'm just going to say it. Let the father thing go. It is eating you up...making you go round and round.
He is who he is. Your w is who she is right now. No amount of analyzing is going to change it.
You dont have to like it, but, you do have to accept that is what it is at this moment.
It is weighing you down. It is sapping your energy. Energy better spent on you and your kids.
Let it go. Leave them to their stuff. Your job is to get out of the way of it.
Trust me I know that you want to get your mind around it. We tend to want to understand as a way of accepting things.
But you know how it isnt logical for a child to get cancer? Its hard to accept.
You cant get her and her dad because it isnt logical. Life is like that sometimes. When it is, you just have to let go of the need to understand.
Let it go, Matt.
Thanks everyone,
You had some really important things to say AJ, thank you. Good to see you pbetra! Who knows what is going on in their heads? I am starting to think MLC is a disease and the "script" is just the common symptoms! It affects the same area of the brain of the "victims" and causes them to say and do and think the same things! Ur, you are right. I just hate to see such an evil person get what HE wants, whatever that may be. I also know that as long as he is so much in my W's life, he will also be around my kids and he says the most awful things to them about them! They are still teenagers and having an adult who tears you down as horribly as I have seen that man do to them, my W and others (including his only son and name sake) it can't be good for their self esteem, especially when their own mother won't do a thing about it and usually ends up backing him!
It happened again this morning. My D14 called me late last night (almost Midnight) and asked if I could take her to school as her mother, once again, was "too busy" to take her! Of course I said I would as it's for HER, NOT W. Of course I also know that my W knows I won't say no and uses that fact to not have to put herself out! I hate that. I also saw her walking home from school yesterday carrying a huge backpack (they don't have lockers in her HS! Can you believe that?). She had left school 20 min.'s earlier, and she was still a good 10 min.'s from her mom's! I was on the highway and past the exit so by the time I could have gotten to her, she would be almost, if not at, her mom's so I didn't stop. Today I left work early enough so I could pick her up as it was 100+ degrees out today! I can tell she is grateful but at the same time isn't going to say anything "bad" about her mom. It really bugs me that my W is still using me like that. She seems to want to put everything ahead of our D14's well being and justify it by knowing that she can count on me taking up the slack like I'm still her husband AND still complain about me not paying for enough of her "needs" (which isn't true). I pay my share and I also give my D's my time and attention. Something she hardly ever seems to do.
Part of me feels like I'm "enabling" my W to get away with not doing what she should be for our D14. That by always being there when she is unwilling to put herself out, I'm making her life easier and mine harder. But at the same time, I don't want my D14 to suffer because her mother is too selfish to do what she should be either. It's a hard place for me to be but for now, especially with my d being so upset about the new school and feeling very lonely, I'm going to do whatever I can FOR HER!
Matt,
You're not enabling W by picking up your D14 or whatever else that needed to be done for her.
You're doing it FOR D14 as the only reliable and dependable parent that she can count on to support her as she makes new transitions.
And she'll remember this for a long, long time. At some point, D14 and W's relationship will deteriorate and it will be squarely on W's shoulders for being emotionally unavailable to her own daughter(s).
So sad.
Your MOST important job right now and going forward is being the best father to your DDs.
I agree with Wonka.
Your responsibility to D14 FAR exceeds any other responsibility you have right now.
As my H would say, "your efforts will keep her off the pole" which is a VERY rude way of saying you're giving her stability and teaching her she can rely and trust you to be there ALWAYS. This is SO important and it is ONLY for her.
She's 14, she knows you're stepping in where your WAW SHOULD be. She's bright and she knows.
Keep it up. She needs a hero right now and you're doing it.
Matt
What Wonka and SS are saying is correct. Last year when my wife left she had my girls so confused they refused to even talk to me or be with me. I have seen that shift almost 180 degrees because I was the reliable one, I was the stable on, I was the one there for them, I did not give up. Don't look at it as enabling your wife. If you do you are giving her too much credit. Look at it as enabling your daughter to have as stable and normal a childhood she can given the circumstances. Doing that will be the best gift you can give her and she will remember it in the future.
Thank you so much Wonka, Ss and LT!
These were my thoughts (doing this for D, not W) exactly. Sometimes it's hard not to get caught up in the MLC craziness. It's almost like being sucked into their selfish world where everything starts to be about THEM. I see her not being the parent she ought to be and think that it's because she knows I will step up and be there for our D's when the truth is she would be doing the exact same thing whether I was able to do so or not! It's so very sad and so hard to comprehend that she has become so unbelievably selfish even when it comes to her own D!
I know it makes a difference because of how my D19 feels about things now. She recognizes that I have always been the one parent she could always count on. The one who made sure that she got picked up on time, got to go to her friends, took her to get her prom dresses, took her to her school dances and was waiting to take her home after. Just last week after her mother told her that she should come and live with her, my D19 said that she knows that her mom is too "undependable" and she just couldn't trust her to do the most basic things. So very sad that a 47 year old mother can be seen by her 19 year old D as "undependable". One of the reasons that I want the business that I'm at now to work is because it allows me the flexibility to do the things like take my D14 to school in the morning if I have to, pick her up after etc. I will say this, I know that all that my W has put me and our family through has really hurt my ability to make it work. All the drama, all the worrying about what she is doing, what is coming next, will she file or not, are my D's going to be alright, her just not telling me that she stopped putting money in the joint accounts and all the extra work it took to fix the problems that caused, on top of all the other things like the IRS audit, her just showing up at my home and taking things, heck just the normal day to day things that come up, has really taken much of my attention off of getting my business to where it should be!
I'm seeing more and more how my W's MLC that started a few years ago, has really made all of our lives (my D's and I) so much harder, so much more full of drama and strife than it ever should have been. How does she (and all of the MLCers for that matter) not see the damage they have and are causing is such a mystery to me. She was at one time a really good wife and mother. She took the girls to field trips, helped them with homework, was just THERE for them. How can she not see how she has just turned her back on them (and me) and caused them so much pain and hurt? Are her unresolved issues so painful to her that she just doesn't care or is it that she just doesn't see? No matter. It is what it is and I had better just get myself to another level of being able to do more than I ever thought I would have to. Because if I don't do the things that my D's need from their parents, they won't get it at all!
OK Everyone, I have a question!
I texted my W today to tell her that I was going to pick up D14 after school and take her home since D14 stayed an extra 2 days at her mom's (and that was 2 weeks ago! I miss having her with me!). First she texted "Why?" like she didn't remember that D14 stayed an extra 2 days. Then she texts back that she wanted to come over on Saturday to "Go thru (her) books". I am certain that there's more to it and I really don't want her here so she can cause trouble trying to take things that don't belong to her or that are still in "dispute"! So I text back to her that I have already packed a large amount of them and that I would be glad to take them to her place when I get D14. So, after about an hour I get back "No, I'd rather do it so I can divide up the ones to go to library and ones to keep". Umm... I suspect she wants to come here for more than books, I don't want her here, I don't trust her. So, I text back "Well,if you have them all there, can't you do that when you unpack them?".
I get back "No would rather go thru them and drop off at library on way home. Much less work and a lot less carrying". There is not either less work OR less carrying! That's stupid! Now, I know there is more to this. I didn't respond for about 40 min. and before I could the phone rings. It's my D14. She says that her mom said that I wanted to pick her up and take her home Friday after school and she doesn't want to have to take all her stuff to school with her that she wants to bring, won't have her dog, etc. I tell my D14 that of course I was planning to take her to hers mothers house to pick up her stuff first. Don't worry about that. She gets quiet and hems and haws and says "Well, mom wants to come to get her books Saturday and I figure I can just go with her".
So, seems that her mother put her up to calling me! So, I decide to just be honest with D14. I say "I just don't want mom wanting to take more than just her books. I have a feeling that she wants to take more than just her books". My D14 says "Yeah, she did say she wanted to get something else. I don't remember what it was....". Aha! I knew it. Why doesn't my W just stop this crap? She seems to have a need to cause trouble. She is so much concerned about "stuff", not so much about her D's! But since my D14 said she'd rather come Saturday I said that my W can come.
I plan on having all her books packed and ready to go when she gets here so she doesn't have a reason to stay. I also plan on being busy as well. I DO NOT want to "talk" to her about money issues like she wanted. I don't want to talk about her father or the D or anything else really. I know that she will want to take things that I don't want her to and that she put on the Final Decree that my lawyer is fighting. If she takes those things then what do I have to bargain with? The court will say I "gave" them to her so she should just keep them. To be honest I don't even want her in my home! (She still says she considers it HER home still as the D isn't final and she has a "right" to come here which isn't true!).
So, any thoughts on how i should handle her when she tries to take more than "her books"? How to just keep things from exploding which she seems to not be able to stop from doing if she hears one thing from me that she doesn't like. I hate this! I wish she would just stay in her sand box!
Hmmm, I think this is an opportunity to "act as if".
You speculate (and perhaps had it confirmed by D14) that your W wants something else from the house. So, when she comes over and there are boxes of her books and she wants to get into the house to get the "other thing" say, "oh, was there something else you wanted, too?" with ZERO sarcasm. You're asking because you're genuinely asking not because you're being punitive and want to point out she's being rude.
So, acting as if, you expect your wife to be friendly, honest, respectful... so how would you treat someone whom you expect to act that way? You'd meet them in kind, right? So try that!
You might be surprised by the results. And if your W "just wants to go get something" perhaps you can say, "oh what is it? I've moved so much stuff around, maybe I can help you locate it".
WDYT?
Hey Matt,
Sorry the W is trying to play games again. My L told me if there was anything that was in disput that I didn't want Clark to take, to remove it from the house, but disclose to the courts where it is. I keep it safe and still in my possession, but I'm aware that it may be turned over to him anyways.
I feel like the KY and TX laws are very similar, so maybe you can do the same. Take some stuff to a friend or relatives house that W doesn't go to. MAKE SURE TO TELL YOUR L YOU HAVE DONE THIS! No getting in trouble on her account.
And I like the approach Ss suggests. If you have the stuff out, it won't bother you as much, but I totally get the not wanting her in your home. I'm starting to feel the same way with Clark.
Hi Matt,
on a similar suggestion to AT I would actually suggest if you have a spare room to put a key lock on its door that only you have a key to and put disputed things in it. This way you keep them in the house and you don't involve a friend in the dispute. You can keep the key off property. This way you can tell the court the property in dispute never left the house. If your wife breaks down the door to the room you can then probably get a restraining order to keep her out.
Thanks Ss, I like that.
That's exactly how I acted when she came with her friend in her friends truck to get some furniture. We had agreed the night before to exactly what she was going to take as I told her that I hadn't had time to do much unloading of and going through the furniture she wanted to take. Of course, she decided once she was there that she was going to take more than what we agreed to and when she started to take something I wanted to keep (the first time I had tried to stop her from taking something SHE wanted other than saying "Oh, are you taking that? OK.", she blew up and went to her lawyer the next day to finalize the D! (I'm still fighting what she put in that "Final Decree" so it's not yet final).
It was like the longer she was there, the more upset and anxious she became. It didn't matter that I was being really nice to her and pretty much letting her be. She knew what we agreed to. It was like she wanted to act like everything was done and we had agreed to everything she was going to take and she felt "entitled" to take anything, like our home was a thrift shop and was looking for the "best" stuff!
Also the fact that last weekend she texted me about how she doesn't think I'm paying "my share" of D's expenses because she took both the girls to the Dr.'s, put $30.00 in her school lunch card and bought some school supplies, tells me that she wants to "talk" about that kind of thing. Knowing how she has been over the last several years, her "talks" consist of her demanding what she wants and getting upset if I don't agree to everything SHE says. Like has been pointed out here and has become crystal clear to me....my W has zero "coping" skills, just like most MLCers. She can't seem to just talk and come to agreements as she will either become very upset if I don't just give in or feels it's OK to just "change her mind" and not stick to anything she says.
I know that she is wanting more than just her books and also that she is feeling over-whelmed, that she is paying more than her share (which isn't true but it's how she "feels. We all know how MLC's and reality go together...like oil and water!) and that means I can expect some unpleasant things come tomorrow!
OK, so I made the mistake of talking to my boss and someone from work about my sitch. This is what I got....
When my D14 calls to ask to pick her up to take her to school, instead of doing it, I should tell her I'm sorry but I just can't. This way she gets to really see how living with my W feels. See that her mother wants her there but isn't willing to do the same things I am (like make sure she has a ride to school in the AM and in PM). Right now because I am willing to do these kind of things for her even when she's with her mom, she will think that as long as she stays with her mom, she will have the best of both worlds..her dad when she needs me and her mom when she's "willing". When she stays with me her mom won't EVER come and pick her up from school or really have anything to do at all with her. D14 might just think that by staying with her mom, she will be better off. This is starting to make sense to me.
Of course with the last 2 weeks being the start of school for her I feel I was more than right since my D14 was so upset and feeling so lonely and having to walk to the place she really hated going, that was just too much more pressure put on her! But now I will have her for the first time since she is at this new school. She will be able to see how living with me feels as she will have a ride to and from school every day, I will be there to help with homework, hang out with her, spend time with her, etc. Things she doesn't get from her mother.
At the same time what these people are saying makes sense as well. I really wish I hadn't let my W put her into this school. I should have fought harder to put her into a school closer to me and where she would need to step up for her D14. As it stands right now, my W knows that D will call me and I will come to her aid. Of course I didn't know D14 would be walking to school as my W said there was a bus!
Now these guys are telling me that I shouldn't even let my W in the house, that I need to get a "war" state of mind, stop letting her get away with the stuff she is doing. That if I don't "fight" for what I deserve I won't get it, etc. They have no idea about the DB principals or the fact that as we all know, all that attitude will get me is more crazy from my W! They also are saying that my W is probably telling my D14 that if she ever decides to say to the court that she wants to live with me more than her mother that W will just push her out of her life, that she will be so very hurt, etc. At this point I know that my W is taking her cues from her a$$hat father who is an a#1 manipulator and sociopath, so I now wouldn't put ANYTHING past her. Instead of her getting more agreeable since she left, she has become more and more selfish and uncaring about anything at all that I'm going through. She hasn't a single care about what I'm going through, that I know.
What do some of you vets out there think about me needing to show my D14 what being with her mom is really going to be like? If I ever do get a different job I may not have the flexibility to do these things and D14 needs to understand that she can't always count on my being able to take up the slack for her mom when she stays with her. At only 14 can she really see that her mom is being uncaring and selfish towards her? I know how hurt D14 has been over the last few years because her mother wouldn't do anything with her or as a family and I know how badly she has wanted her mothers attention and approval. All she has to do is give her SOME attention and tie that to D14 doing what W wants her too and I can see my D eating it up and doing whatever she needs to keep getting that attention and approval. I had hoped my W wouldn't stoop that low but at this point I can't trust that she hasn't already started doing just this!
A war state of mind? I don't think that's very productive, do you? Your whole family (including her) have enough going on and it's not like anything she is doing is hurting you. You're doing that by not being detached from the outcome or the immediate situation.
What they describe is pure ego. And has nothing to gain for you unless you are that damaged.
I do however agree that you shouldn't let her come and go as she pleases. It's easy enough to say "no. I'll bring the books over and you can do what you want with them." and leave it at that. Unless and until you can do things without worrying about her reaction or whether or not it's the "right" thing to do, you'll be stuck and a prisoner of this situation.
Like many prisons, you have the key to this one.
It's your life too, Matt. You can put your foot down without being mean, angry, "war-like" or any bravado. You're an experienced man. You can be you without fear of reprisal from your W.
What's she going to do? Divorce you? Leave? Say mean things about you?
That's not a free pass to become angry and nasty. You're the type that would not like yourself for doing that and I see no reason to let the choices of your W dictate your future self.
My $0.02 worth.
Oh, and try not to talk it over with friends too much. They want to see you stop hurting and will do anything to reach that goal. Including give you advice you won't like having taken later.
AJ
Matt,
I am dealing with a lot on my plate at the moment that is very messy like a bad spaghetti with splashed sauce all over it.
However reading your recent post really knocked the wind out of me because I thought to myself...
Really??!! Is Matt that dense and/or stupid? When my D14 calls to ask to pick her up to take her to school, instead of doing it, I should tell her I'm sorry but I just can't. This way she gets to really see how living with my W feels. See that her mother wants her there but isn't willing to do the same things I am (like make sure she has a ride to school in the AM and in PM). Right now because I am willing to do these kind of things for her even when she's with her mom, she will think that as long as she stays with her mom, she will have the best of both worlds..her dad when she needs me and her mom when she's "willing". When she stays with me her mom won't EVER come and pick her up from school or really have anything to do at all with her. D14 might just think that by staying with her mom, she will be better off. This is starting to make sense to me.
What do some of you vets out there think about me needing to show my D14 what being with her mom is really going to be like? If I ever do get a different job I may not have the flexibility to do these things and D14 needs to understand that she can't always count on my being able to take up the slack for her mom when she stays with her. At only 14 can she really see that her mom is being uncaring and selfish towards her?
Matt, Matt....you are not DBing D14!! Your job is to be there to support D14 through this new transition.
Why on Earth would you hurt D14 in this manner by tightening screws on her just show her that Mom is the unreliable parent??!!! What's your point here, really?? Some victory for you---at whose expense??!! D14 already knows this and doesn't need you to put screws into her just because you are very frustrated with your W.
This is strictly between you and W. Don't you ever even entertain notions about just leaving D14 high and try just to teach her a lesson about her Mom. How wacky is that thinking process?
More importantly....why on Earth would your so-called "clear-headed" work colleagues even suggest that ^^?? Stupid, stupid.
At only 14 can she really see that her mom is being uncaring and selfish towards her?
Haven't you been listening to D14 and D19 at all??? They've already told you several times how crazy Mom has been and how unreliable she's been. Good Lord...D14 is already living through this so she doesn't need to "know how's that gonna look like." Jeepers!
Why would you even bring up that question any way, Matt? Was that idea planted by your stupid, stupid work colleagues? What were they thinking??! Must have smoked something at the office.
Come on, Matt. I think you can do better than this. Really.
Unfortunately Wonka I think Matt has progressed from a 2x4 to a 4x8 on the side of the head.
Matt, you never put the kids in the middle of it. Leave that to your wife. Listening to family, co workers, or friends is a short trip to disaster.
Your daughters are putting 2+2 together. They will figure your wife out. That does not mean they will stop loving her. They will just pick and choose when to involve her in their lives. Take this from someone who was in your place a year ago in regards to daughters and wife. keep being the stable person in their lives who is there for them. You will be rewarded for your efforts soon. Have some patience.
AJ is correct, what your boss and coworker advised is pure ego driven. Any satisfaction gained would be short lived. You are better than that. I also know you would never knowingly do anything to hurt your girls.
So now that you've spilled the beans with them, here's what you need to do. When they ask you questions about your sitch, you put your best possible spin on it. Leave out or down play any negative stuff.
It goes without saying that you do not initiate any more relationship talks with them.
Keep working on your PMA. If they see you doing well they'll not worry about you... and will not push you to do something stupid.
I hope you have at least one trusted person to confide in.
Matt,
Your girls are watching. Don't worry about what they see with stbxw-that's their relationship and they will figure that out. It is extremely painful to watch your kids struggle and suffer. However , you need to be their example. Dignity, humility, grace, compassion... You must be the rock for your girls.
Please don't try to *show* them what living with their mother is like. They will see it all for themselves.
Right the ship!!! You ARE so much better than this.
OK, I get it.
I actually am glad for the 4x8. Like I said in my first post about this "I made the mistake of talking to....". I understand that those guys just don't know what they are talking about, have no idea about what is really happening or what is the right thing to do. BUT...sometimes when you have people who actually seem to care pushing you, while at the same time things just aren't getting ANY better (worse in some ways) no matter what I seem to do, you start to question whether you're doing the right thing. And they were very insistent, played on my already hurt ego (just like you said). This is why I HAD to run it by everyone here. When what they were saying started to make sense to me the better part of me didn't agree!
Well, I guess that is what this board is for. It's just that sometimes, when things just don't change, only seem to get worse, even things that you never would thought you would do or think start to make sense. That's when you start to question yourself. I've tried so hard to be decent, understanding of why my W is doing the things she is, to keep the damage to my girls to a min. while my W just mows anyone down that stands in her way. It's just that she NEVER seems to give me a break, a chance to make some forward progress. Every time that I start to think that maybe things will get better, she does something new to knock me back again. Maybe I got a little punch drunk!
Thanks everyone. You are right I am better than this. Hey, it could have been worse, I could have just taken their "advice" and ran with it. Of course if I had done that, I would have felt like I had stooped to my W's level of selfishness. Impossible unless you are in "crisis" because unless you are, the guilt will eat you up alive! Funny how badly I feel for just thinking about doing something like this, can you imagine how an MLCer must feel once they leave the tunnel and actually see the damage they have caused? Kind of gives one a taste of why it is hard for them to deal with the guilt. The amount of shame that they feel must be incredible!
Thanks again everyone! I'm so glad you all were there to bring me back down to earth BEFORE I did something I REALLY would have regretted. You are all the best!
It's just that sometimes, when things just don't change, only seem to get worse, even things that you never would thought you would do or think start to make sense.
And that, Matt, is why I strongly suggest you make up your mind about your actions and what you are going to look back and see. That, and this
can you imagine how an MLCer must feel once they leave the tunnel and actually see the damage they have caused? Kind of gives one a taste of why it is hard for them to deal with the guilt. The amount of shame that they feel must be incredible!
If you were nuts, you wouldn't care. If you were so scared or otherwise impaired, you wouldn't care. But you are not. You have the honor of being sane and taking care of your children. Of showing them how to live a life worth living. How to forgive. How to be a decent human being.
There are times when that is thankless. That doesn't make it any less important. It makes it a point in time and nothing more.
Want to help yourself? Think beyond yourself. Think about how this all affects your children. Think how you can help them.
You? You'll be more than fine. Your children? They need help to be fine.
Do whatever you have to do to keep the kids out of it. I've made the mistake of allowing my ex to drag me into conversations that the kids heard. Years later that still comes up with the kids. My action since? My ex's H drags my daughter into email conversations she shouldn't be part of. I don't participate in the conversations. Period. I don't participate in conversations with my ex. Period. I don't try to "get back" at her or him. I don't try to defend anything.
It's one way I can help my kids deal with all of this. There were times I'd like to do more and be offensive. But I know that would not be helpful to them. I don't need to respond to anger or crazy. My ex has that market cornered enough for all concerned
It can make you crazy, Matt if you forget what you're about. But if you make up your mind what you're going to do, things will be a LOT better for you and the kids.
Later, your kids may thank you. And your boss and co-worker? They may ask for advice. For now, it's your road to walk and you need to decide how you'll walk it and what you want to see when you look back so you're not tempted to take others' advice. Even mine
Peace brother,
AJ
To add to AJ's wisdom ^^^^...
Matt, remember that Mach guy? Those questions he, AJ, myself and others were asking you...those "wtf?", brain hurting, unfair and annoying questions, back when you first started posting?
Those questions were designed to get you to where AJ said you need to be ^^^^.
You are at a pivotal moment in your life right freaking NOW...how you handle this will either haunt you with regret the rest of your life, or be one of the most positive, pivotal changes in your life, that you can look back on with peace, and maybe some pride.
NOW you need to figure out what kind of man, father, human being you are, want to be and are going to be.
And those questions we threw at you in the beginning?
They are your path to discovering that.
I am asking you to go back to your first threads, find those questions, print them up if you have to, one post per page, and REALLY look into that dude in the mirror.
Your stbxw has no say in who that dude in the mirror becomes any more.
It's ALL on YOU now.I'm going to re-post from my thread my response to you and Mighty:
Matt and Mighty, some realizations came to me since June, granted I've had 3 years (BD #1 anniversary this month) to come to terms with the possible loss of my M, these still came fast and hard, because though I don't easily quit, once I do get to the point of futility, I drop the rope fast and hard. Here is what came to me:
She's gone.
I need to heal, I have kids full time, work 40-60 hours a week, I am taxi and school bus service, and I have a disaster of a house to remedy, etc... Like the Van Halen line from the song "Ain't Talking About Love" goes... "I got no time to mess around..."
I had to see my life without her, hard as that was.
My healing has nothing to do with her anymore.
Nothing she can do or say is going to change how I feel. It's about me.
It's up to ME.
So I re-framed this into "as if" she died.
Absolutely no chance of reconciliation, her changing her mind, etc.
How does that change how I feel?
How does that change MY ACTIONS in recovering, healing myself and my kids, getting to the needful?
Life is for the living, and my kids and I are far too blessed to be waiting around for a ghost to maybe re-appear and be re-incorporate, meanwhile life passes by.
That mindset change gave me strength and determination to do the right things for my sons and myself. To tackle the hoarders hoard, organize, super-clean, create the NEW normal in a positive, healthy way. My kids deserved it, and it was completely up to ME to make it happen.
You can do this.
Thanks AJ and T2,
Well, W came over at about 2:00 PM. She just left 20 min.'s ago.(that means that she was here over 7 hours!) I had ALL her books out in the living room and ready for her to "go thru". She starts doing that as I settle in with my D14. I was very nice, upbeat, friendly. W takes A LOT of time doing the books, seems to be feeling me out. Then comes what I expected...she just drops that she is coming by tomorrow with her BFF and BFF's boyfriend (who have a truck). Well, what does she need a truck for?, I ask. She says that she wanted to take the kitchen table (which I expected. Her grand father made it and we have an old one that we bought when we first got married that I can use). OK, so now I KNOW that she is wanting something else! So, a little later she says "I would like to take the book shelf, too". OK, this bothers me. With that, she has now taken EVERY good piece of furniture we owned! All the antiques and all the best and newest pieces! And the D isn't even final! I let her know that I don't like it, that it's something I really wanted myself but she keeps calm and actually speaks to me without losing her cool and running around screaming. She calmly made a case for why she WANTS it (didn't say how she's "entitled" to it), how I have a couple other, nice book shelves, etc. I actually would have liked to keep it but, as I've said before, I'm not really concerned about the "stuff". I decided that since she ASKED and didn't DEMAND, I told her that she could have it.
She also went through and took some of her clothes that I have wanted her to take since it takes up most of my bedroom closet! Went through her kitchen stuff and actually was decent about what she took (more than she should have but nothing I really cared much about). She than said that we need to make plans to take a day and go through all the remaining things we have from 26 years together and decide what we want and what we will give to Good Will, who gets what, etc. All this time we were talking and she was being a lot like the old her (although a bit tense and talking mostly about herself and her "new" home). As it got later I asked if she wanted a burger as I was going to grill some for D14 and myself. She accepted and we ate together.
I helped her pack her car and when it started to rain, she came back in and killed time going through a bunch of socks that came out of the wash without a mate and gloves that did the same and paired a bunch all while sitting on the floor while my D14 and I watched some TV and talked to each other and my W. This was the most decent time we have spent together since she left. Of course, if I had tried to tell her not to take the book shelf or any of the things that she did, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have gone so well. I really don't like that she TOLD me she was coming again tomorrow, didn't ask if it was a good time for me (it really isn't what I had planned on doing). She didn't just come to go through her books like she said she was AND some things have come up with my D14 that I will talk about in another post that I really don't like but my W is putting her up to doing. But, all in all, it wasn't that bad. I was relaxed, I didn't let her get to me (there were a few times that she did bait me but I didn't bite) and she was nicer than she has been in a long time (although like I said, she did get her way so who knows what would have happened if I had said no to her taking something she wants). I just hope that things go as well tomorrow. I tried to make sure it will (as much as that is possible with MLCer) by asking more than once EXACTLY what she planned on taking. As long as that stays the case It shouldn't be too bad.
Now if only things with my D14 were going near as well. That's for another post!
hi Matt,
just as I thought, you've had quite a bit of 'action' going on.
Glad to read of the good advice re: your girls. Children 'make children of us' - I saw it w/my sibling's divorce.
The insecurity of the two due to the lack of trust. We love our children. We want them to want us ... if we were sure we wouldn't lose them ('guaranteed'), we might feel differently. It isn't like that - it a 'war'. There is no trust, there is manipulation, so of course we feel desperate! We love our children, we WANT them to be with us and to 'want us back' in return. They 'have' us ... ! We may be adult re: other sitch. but with the love we have for our children, it is emotional. Human nature I guess.
pb
ps just hinted at mine (I got a shy gesture."wants the family")
Take care Matt
Thanks for stopping by pbetra!
Well, W came again today. With her BFF and BFF's boyfriend. She knows that it was important that I watch the game and told me that she would be here and gone before 12:00 noon. Well, she didn't show until 1/2 way through half time! I missed all of the 3rd qrt. because she couldn't do what she said. Entitlement at it's best! To my surprise, D14 didn't even bother to come out of her bedroom to see her mother. In fact she waited until it was quiet and asked if they had left before coming out! Umm...that was odd. More than that, W again, after I tried to make sure she wouldn't, took a lot more than she said she was going to! Again! I swear she won't be satisfied until she has everything SHE wants and doesn't care a bit what is best for me. Of course to hear her, I'm just so much better off without "stuff" (take your own dam advice, woman!). She even took the flower pots from the deck! She is just ridiculous!
Of course, I was nice, kept my cool about the game and the extra stuff. I will say this, my W stayed as far away from me as possible. It was weird, it was almost like she was afraid I might actually touch her or something. She stayed at arms length. Yesterday she didn't have the deer in the headlights look in eyes that she has had almost every time I've seen her since she left, today she did. Her BFF commented to me about my making burgers yesterday while looking at my W and smiling. Umm, I wonder if W saw that as "pursuing"? It wasn't, it was just what I would do if I had a guest over. Who knows what's going on in my W's head, I sure don't and I really don't care. I think she thinks that I care much more about her or what she's doing than I really do. I will say this, she looks awful. She is STILL losing weight, she looks tired and haggard with big circles under her eyes. She hasn't seen her father in more than a week and I have noticed that the longer she is away from him, the nicer she is. Thankfully, she didn't stay any where near as long as yesterday and we got through it without her getting upset and screaming once again. (When my W started to get more things to take than we agreed to, her BFF actually called her on it! She used humor, but she gave me a look like she understood that W was pushing before she said it. Maybe W is starting to listen a little bit to people who tell her she is going too far? Naw, that can't be right!)
Well, a problem has come up with my D14. She is wanting to go back to her mom's house each day after school, to "relax and do her homework". When I told her that I was planning on picking her up from school each day and she can do her homework here, she got upset, saying she didn't want to do that. I told her that by the time she gets to her mom's (she will have to walk) I will be there to pick her up even if I left work my normal time! She said that since her school doesn't have lockers (stupid!) she has 2 sets of books...one for school, one she keeps at home for homework. That makes no sense to me. Where does she leave her "school" books if she doesn't have a locker? Why not just bring her home set of books with her for the week? When I was talking, her mother chimed in saying that she thought my D14 was fine doing this, it gives me more time if I want to stay late at work (that's HER thing, not mine. I want to be with my D, want to help her with her homework, etc.). It's like she's encouraging my D14 to see HER home as MORE of her home than mine! In fact I'm fairly sure this is what she is doing from what she is saying. I know D14 hasn't been feeling like her mothers house is "home" and I think my W doesn't like this and is telling her all the things about going to her home every day.
I don't like it. I want my D to be with ME, not at her mom's. To feel like my home (her home all of her life!) is as much her REAL home as her mothers. What she is asking just doesn't make sense except to my W and a 14 year old! I want to just tell my D that she needs to bring her books with her when she comes here and I will pick her up. It just doesn't make sense and by the time she gets to her mothers, I will be there and I'm not wanting to wait around while she does her homework. I don't want to upset her and I know her mother won't back me but I feel it's something I need to do. What do you guys think? I don't think I am overreacting or am being a pain. D14 needs to see my home as as much a home as her mothers. I think this has more to do with the fact that D14 spent the first 2 weeks of school at her mothers. I think she was so scared and she made certain habits to have stability and she wants to keep those routines. I wouldn't be surprised if soon my W will start trying to get D14 to say it's easier if she just stays there during the week during the school year! I really think this is what my W is working for. Not because my W wants her there of course. She just wants D14 to not be angry for ending the M and family and is jealous when she thinks my D is happier with me more than her. I really need to get this under control right away before it gets out of hand.
I would really like to know what you all think. If you have had to deal with this kind of thing and what you did. Thanks!
Yes, what is with the "deer in the headlights" look??? I noticed that too this second time around again with my H so its not a coincidence.
OK, I really need some help here people. It's like all my worst fears are coming true and I'm losing my D14.
So, today is day one of my taking her to school. Because her mother moved 30 miles away and put D14 into school that is close to her, D14 (who is a definitely NOT a morning person!) can take her time and sleep later in the AM when with her mother. Of course this wouldn't be the case if she had to walk to school which she would have had to more than 1/2 the time except that I came and picked her up and took her when she was staying with her mother. So, she doesn't understand that she would be having to get up at the same time as when she has to when with me if I wasn't there to "help' her mom by putting myself out and getting her to school when her mother "can't". As far as D14 knows, when at her mom's she can always sleep later.
This morning I tried to get her moving and ready on time. She got up in time (I thought) but there is just so much she seems to need to do to get ready! Make-up, clothes, hair, who knows what, that she wasn't ready when it was time to leave. She get's crabby in the morning and there is no rushing her without a fight. By the time she got ready it was 20 min.'s past when I wanted to leave! Of course once we get in the car and are going she says "Is there any way that you can get there any faster?". So, I tell her calmly that we just need to leave 15 min's earlier and we would be fine. Just like I thought she would, she got angry (something she has learned from her mother) and said "I got up before 7:00 AM! How early do I need to get up?". I say calmly again "Well, it's 30 miles away and we need time to get there". I got back from her.. "Mom lives 4 min's from school....". Look kid, it's not MY fault your mother moved away, put you in a school you didn't want to go to, put you in a school so far from me and still wants you to live 7 days with me, 7 days with her! What I SAID was "D14, it wasn't my choice for your mom to move so far away. She didn't think about me or you and what it would mean when you stayed with me. She moved there because it's where all her friends live, not because she wanted you to be closer to school so you could sleep later". It was the closest thing to me saying something "bad" about her mother and her choices since this all started!
So, we got there 2 min's late so she will be in trouble. It will mean a tardy and who knows what they do if you get too many of those at public school? Add to this the fact that her and her mother are saying that she should go home after school when she's staying with me to do homework before I pick her up and it just adds to what I KNOW is coming....D14 saying she should just stay with her mother during the week when school is in session! I can see it coming. My W is manipulating her to see HER house as D14's "real" home and mine as not. She doesn't even need to put herself out as I have been coming and getting her in the morning when W doesn't "feel" like it so D14 doesn't see what relying on her mother (who doesn't really care to put herself out) is really like.
I know what's happening, I can see it coming. I just don't know what to do about it! I don't want to do what the people I work with suggested and just not take her in the AM when she is with her mother or not take her places when she's with her mom if her mom can't (or won't) do it. But I just don't know how else to block her mothers effort to make D14 see HER place as her "real" home while pushing me more and more out of D14's life. I already am at a disadvantage because W isn't helping keep me in the loop with school things. I was hoping that once I started picking her up from school, I would start getting all the info and hand outs from teacher at least on my weeks but now D14 wants to go to her mom's before I get her and she will just leave that stuff there. Other than putting my foot down and telling D14 I am getting her from school and that's that how to put a stop to this. Any thoughts?
Matt,
I went through similar situation last year. First off your daughters behavior is normal for her age. Some kids are better some are worse. It will get betting in time and you have to wait it it.
You need to step back and detach a bit. You need to stop saying negative things to your daughter regarding her mom. She may choose to live with her mom more of the time right now. Keep calm. Don't threaten or coerce. Be the stable one who is the best dad he can be and is always there for her. In time she will see that there is something wrong her mother. Friends may even point it out to her. When it happens you will see a shift back in your direction. She will never say anything bad about her mother so don't look for it. Her actions will speak louder than her words. This will hurt really bad at first. But keep in mind she will come back to you if you do the right things. Don't panic. I can say this with the utmost confidence because this is the advice I received and it has come to pass.
Ugh. First, I'm sorry, and 14 year old teen girls are insane no matter what the parental situation.
This is one area I'm experienced in.... Not an expert, but I've been exactly where you are.
Just like I thought she would, she got angry <<<< perhaps some acting "as if" here?
(something she has learned from her mother)<<<<<< right or wrong, got to stop the blaming.
and said "I got up before 7:00 AM! How early do I need to get up?". I say calmly again "Well, it's 30 miles away and we need time to get there". I got back from her.. "Mom lives 4 min's from school....". <<<< typical pitting against each other. You'll see this for as long as it works for D14 .
Here's the thing, Matt, you are not losing your D14. But with the ever-building anger and resentment, you could.
It was good that you didn't actually say out loud what you were thinking. But sometimes, just thinking it can exude the same energy, even with different words....still:
"D14, it wasn't my choice for your mom to move so far away. She didn't think about me or you and what it would mean when you stayed with me. She moved there because it's where all her friends live, not because she wanted you to be closer to school so you could sleep later". It was the closest thing to me saying something "bad" about her mother and her choices since this all started!
I'm sorry for being bold here, but I have to be straight up with you. ^^^^ That is exactly the stuff that will drive your D14 right toward her mother. You are a better man than that. Dig deep for restraint.
Just don't talk about W AT ALL. ZERO. Don't assign motives. Don't mind-read. And DON'T talk at all about your opinions about W. Wear the white hat. It stinks what is happening, but your reactions can make it either positive or negative for you in the long run.
I went through a TERRIBLE custody battle, thought I was losing my 4 kids to a man I thought had everyone bamboozled by his lies and manipulation. He didn't. And I have them 100% of the time now. But I thought he was "winning" at the time. I had to let go of that, and it was nearly impossible as their solid parent. But I trusted my L. He said be consistent. Be calm. Be solid. He was right.
You will lose many battles. But if you wear the white hat, you WILL win the war. So let go of the battles, right?
What are the knowns? The school is far. The drive is inconvenient. There is a time to leave, or she will be late. Talk to D14 about the problem with both facts, and respect. Isolate the problem, and direct both your energies together, to come up with a solution.
D14 might come out and say she wants to live with her mother, whether out of anger or just to get a rise from you (and that is common, so don't be surprised if she does....may not even be personal. She's 14 and hormonal). That is what they do. Your job is to not react. Stick to facts. Talk about how that would play out. Talk about the whole picture, write it out. Weigh the negatives and positives. Calmly. She can't complex problem-solve like that yet. D14 lives mostly in impulse and emotion. That's normal.
I had to let my kids go with xh many times before the courts were willing to rule even temporary custody. He made grandiose plans. I looked like a failure. He snatched them for Christmas one year and I crumbled. I cried all day. My kids called me in the afternoon, crying because dad was sleeping and their Christmas was ruined, and they missed me. Your W will fail on her own, over time. Don't get caught up in every battle.
Be consistent. Be the strong, dependable, non-reactive one. White hat, Matt. You can do this.
Thanks LT and Shining,
It is just so hard sometimes when you know you are trying your best and you also know that D14 is being manipulated (W did it in front of me when at my place over the weekend). As far as saying anything bad about her mother, like I said this was absolutely the "worst" thing I have said. When my W left and didn't bother telling her that she not just left but also filed for D, I explained to my D that I did try the best I could to stop this from happening but nothing I did seemed to make a difference. I was so careful to not say anything negative about her mother even though at that time I was in bad shape and really hurting. It was just the way she said that her mom lives so close like she did it FOR D14, it hit a button and I was rushed and tired.
You know as well as I do, sitting down and having a logical discussion with a 14 year old girl is almost impossible. It would be easier if my W wouldn't intervene but I can't do anything about that. I know you are right. I just get worried when I see my d14 being manipulated when I have tried so hard NOT to do just that. Of course I want her to have her mother in her life AND healthy. Right now my W is not healthy. It's been such a long time that I have been the involved parent while W wasn't at all concerned about much more than herself. I am so used to being there for D14, to make sure she gets to do the things she should be doing and when she is so far away it's hard.
When the subject of her mother comes up I am always respectful and try and keep a good attitude. When talking about things that happened in the past and her mother was part of them I always try to put her in a good light. Like when talking about a trip to the coast I would say "Yeah, and remember how mom did ____, that was so funny". The same as if she had never left. I doubt that my W does the same (that is mind reading a bit but it comes from experience).
This whole custody sitch is just such an awful thing to have to go through. It seems at times by just being the "good guy" (like when my W changed our arrangement without even bothering to ask or even tell me) that I'm GIVING my W more power than she should have. I don't want to be a doormat and allow my w to just get her way but at the same time I don't want to cause tension for my D either. It's like when my W threw a fit over a clock in front of both the kids and her friend. The thing that made me just stop and say "It's time for you to go" to my W was when I saw the looks on the faces of my kids. They were so shocked and uncomfortable. Fighting over some "thing" wasn't worth putting them through that. So my W throws a fit, makes everyone feel awful AND gets her way in the end (I let her just take it). Just doesn't seem like the right thing to do, the right message to send to my D14, that if you throw a fit and make everyone upset you'll get your way. But at the same time there is no reason to put her through that and "things" aren't worth her having to see an adult (her own mother) act like a child.
Thanks for the sanity check Shining. My W has taken so much from all of us. She seems to have gotten her way at every turn and it's hard to see something happening and just stay calm and consistent although I do understand that is the right thing to do. Time to just let things be and handle the things that I can.
Matt,
Why would you say,"Yeah, and remember how mom did ____, that was so funny"? Why bring your wife into any conversation you have with your daughter unless she prompts it? This is a lesson I had to learn and you need to do the same. Only on rare occasion do I ask my kids how their mother is doing. Other than that I try to pry as little as possible. You need to do this for yourself and your daughter. Showing interest will not help the situation. Detach.
On the other topic, there is no talking logically with a 14 year old. That is about as fruitless as hoping for a dramatic change in your wife. Stop pinning hopes on the fruitless and get your self grounded for both you and your daughter.
I think you have the wrong idea LT.
I'm talking about when we are talking about things that happened in the past, that would be impossible to NOT mention that when these things were happening their mother was there, was part of the whole point of the conversation. In fact acting like it was only me and them would be odd and seem like a deliberate try to erase the fact that they ever had a mother. There is no reason to act like she never existed or that mentioning her will cause problems. They don't need to think that the mere mention of her will cause me pain (it doesn"t). She is their mother and they do things with her that they want to talk about, why make them feel like they can't talk about their lives if their mother was there? I NEVER ask my D's about what my W is or isn't doing and never bring her up unless by them or because it would be impossible not to. As for "prying", no way! I show no interest in what my W is doing at all. The last thing they need is to feel like I'm interrogating them for information. The fact is I really DON'T care what she is doing when she isn't causing me headaches! She could be studying to become a circus performer and I really don't care.
I also tried to make it clear that I know I can't expect to have a logical conversation with a 14 year old. That was the actual point I was trying to make, that trying to do THAT would be impossible. There are ways to go about trying to get her to understand what the situation calls for (like her HAVING to get up earlier when she is with me) that don't involve "logic". That was the point I was trying to make.
I have not and will not act as if the past never happened, that we never were a family whether that is no longer the case now or not. Just because one of the people that were there, that was an important part of their lives at the time no longer is there or will be in the future doesn't mean that it never happened. I think it would be way worse to not remember that whatever is happening now, we did have some good times as a family. Whether their mother wants to pretend that it never happened or to change history suddenly and make it seem like it was always "horrible" or "unhappy" they have every right to remember that there WERE fun times, good times over the years..that included their mother. I not going to just bring it up out of the blue but when we are talking about things that we did as a family I'm not going to pretend that she was never there, that wouldn't be fair to them (or their mother for that matter).
I have been very careful about NOT doing the kind of things that many seem to do...always avoiding any mention of the other s like it's some sort of taboo subject, deliberately saying nasty or hurtful things (like I said, what I said to my D today was the closest thing to "bad" that I have said since all this started, and it was a statement of fact, really). The problem I'm having right now is that I DON'T want to do any of that while at the same time deal with the fact that I know that my W is manipulating my D in ways that I never would (she did it in front of me when I was trying to deal with my d14 about going to her mom's everyday. She should have just stayed out of the conversation). The easy thing to do would be to meet her in kind. Start manipulating her on my end. I won't do that, no matter how tempting but at the same time I don't want to just let it happen either.
I really couldn't act any more "detached" from what my W is doing NOW with my D14 than I have been. I actually am detached from what she is doing in her personal life, like I said I don't care unless she's bringing strange men home when my D is there but I don't think that is a problem at this time. The thing I'm having a hard time detaching from is how she is trying to get more in the D than she should. That she is trying to manipulate my D14. That she isn't holding up her end of the "co-parenting" thing and not sharing info that I should have regarding D's school, etc. That unless she gets her way she throws fits. That she thinks she has a right to just come to my home and take what she wants without giving me notice or even asking if it's a good time for me. These things are the things that I just can't seem to not react to when they happen. I do need to find a way to deal with them better, that's for sure.
Matt,
I don't try to pretend that my wife does not exist. When we talk about past trips, vacations and such I just try and talk in the we/family mode rather than bringing my wife up specifically. If the kids bring her specifically into the conversation I contribute. I just steer clear of bringing her up myself. What I am saying is let the kids bring her up, they will if they want to in regards to good memories. If they don't then don't force it.
Ok, I got it. Thanks LT. I can see what you are saying there. No need to bring up things that aren't already on the table! Thanks!
Hey Matt- catching up on your thread and it sounds like things are still tough.
One thing I can say from my own experience growing up- my parents separated multiple times and stayed that way throughout my teen years.
My mom would talk about my dad frequently,
She would get upset that I wanted a relationship with him, would share details with me about their relationship that were not appropriate for me to know. Even after I got married I had to hide from her that I visited him and his girlfriend with my newborn son. She found out and treated me horribly.
While I know my dad was frustrated with her, he never spoke poorly of her. Even when I was frustrated and complained about her to him, he would say things like " I know you need to help your mom and take care of her". ( of course that wasn't good to say either but at least it wasn't him trying to make me choose sides).
My point in saying all of this is that despite the fact there were issues with both my parents, the fact that my dad stayed so neutral had a profoundly positive impact on me. To this day I have issues with my mother and how she tried to manipulate me and play the victim and use me in the way she did.
It will pay off immensely as she grows and moves out of adolescence if you can keep the focus on you and D14s relationship and nothing to do with your W.
I know it's hard and I have to catch myself sometimes but I've been that kid and I'm so thankful for how my dad handled it.
Just my 2 cents worth...
Thanks Daring, it does make a difference!
I know from my W's relationship with her mother that it hurt my W when her mom would say bad things about her father (even though, if you knew all the horrible things he did, he deserved almost anything she could have said!) and it really hurt my W. Fact is, my W is using this fact to justify her actions today. It's a big reason why she is so ready to "forgive" her father and she now blames her mothers actions for making the D "worse". She has told me that D "doesn't hurt the kids, it's all in how the parents behave after", which isn't true but because she saw her mother tear down her father she blames her bad relationship with him on HER MOTHER. That's how much one parent talking down the other can cause lifelong problems. In fact her relationship with her dad is the biggest thing she wants to "replay" now that she is in MLC!
It's not always easy when my W is doing awful things and manipulating my D14 but I know that I just can't do it, even if it means my D may actually listen and allow her mothers actions to affect her decisions right now. When we are hurting, it's easy to let ourselves act out. Act like children and use anything that we can find to "hurt" the other person back. But my D means too much to me to use her like that. Her future relationships will already be affected by what is happening now. As her father I have to make sure that I don't make things worse. In fact it's up to me to do all I can to help her through this with the least amt. of pain and hurt. Keeping that in my mind at all times helps make sure I don't do anything that will make things worse!
Well, it's that time again! Time to start a new topic thread!
I'll see you all in Wife Still in MLC but has now left #4!
Any of you Vets out there, please if you can help me out with a link to this thread on the next, it would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Matt,
You should be able to go to the first page of this topic and the highlite the
www.divor... up in the address bar do a right click and scroll to copy. Then go to new topic and right click paste
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482273#Post2482273
Thanks LT! I got your post after I started the new thread but I'll try it! Thank you!