Re: we own a business - pt 10 ... its about me!

old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...987#Post2351987

while waiting to hear back from you KD... I just want to add, that I believe my h is buring his head into work and is not dealing with things. With that being said, I am sooooo greatful its "work" and not another woman.

H called me this morning, finally at 11... informed me that he was working last night and was on his way for "saturday sale", that depending on what happens at the sale, he will be driving back possibly even the car that H wanted to leave behind (which got me bothered yesterday, thinking it was about a cottage sham/lie).... I may have been wrong! It may very well have been about him wanting me to be "avail" for clients today/multi-tasking.

Finally have a chance to get back at this.

First, I don't think that the saturday shopping time together wasn't working. Just that it may have stopped working for your H. And I don't mean that from a personal perspective, rather from a business perspective.

As you noted in your last post, your H appears to have possibly had plans that were different than what you thought. So it is possible that your H thinks that, at least at times like this (is it overly busy right now? season wise, I mean), that the two of you might best spread yourselves out.

Again, I'm simply looking at that from a business perspective and it completely makes sense, to me. I actually think that opens the door up to better "personal time" with your H, after the doors of the store are closed for the day (or season).

On getting mad at you for not doing things his way, I would have to say that's pretty normal normally, and I think is a normal pattern in your business R.

There's a lot going on in the dynamic, even just the way things were operating for the two of you. Again, as though you were a junior partner. Quite often, regardless of that, people have expectations that in order to do something, it must be done a certain way, which is usually they way THEY would do it. So your H will do that until he finally feels comfortable that you can get the results, even if how you do it is not the same way HE would do it.

This holds the underlying TRUST aspect. There's not much more to say on that, other than his trust is showing up as getting mad at you. It is his problem and while it seems personal, it is just something that he will do until he is comfortable with truly letting things go. That's where his apparent desire to control is coming from. His own lack of trust, which quite likely stems from his lack of trust in himself, which possibly shows up in certain "perfectionist" behaviours, as well. And as you note, also appears to be showing up in his constant desire to "learn from the best" and "know the future". Its subtle, but it certainly appears to be the case.

Which brings us to him suggesting to you that he hopes you will take more "charge" and learn from your mistakes. He's telling you... probably exactly what he believes himself... even though he is currently having trouble letting go the reigns... that will change, in time. I've seen that behaviour very often, both in others, and in myself.

He is doing what he wants because although he doesn't trust himself... he trust others (including you) less. So he's going to do it all, himself. In the personality quadrant, that's called a "controller". He'll get over it. In the mean time, he's going to come across as being overbearing regarding your own business conduct and successes/failures.

KD... ok, so what do I do? What is my plan of action? What part is mine?

What about the personal side of things? For a short while now, I have been letting him do all the contacting (unless quite important for business), but again.. all his contact is 99% about business. In the last week, he texted to tell me that my tv show was on (I didn't reply), and to apologize (I acknowledged).

What else can I be doing? Or do I just keep on, keeping on?

Space/contact only as necessary/drop the rope/end calls first/let him walk over to me(not me to him), all approach comes from him.

Me: GAL, patience patience patience, pray & give my R to God to sort out.

I think that most of that all covers the operations side of thing. Keep working on your business acumen and your role as a true, equal partner in the venture. I think you are moving in a good direction, there.

There's now a couple other things obviously, one is the possible disentanglement of yourself from the business, if that's what you want. Or alternatively, making the financial part more formalized. The other is, of course the reason you are really here, which is the personal side of your R.

So on the first, do you really want to leave the business?

Whether yes or no, it is probably a good idea to disentangle both of your financial ties to the company. As your H indicated that the business is in the black, it might be a good idea for the both of you to take a portion of the profits which can reasonably be removed from the account and split it between the two of you to offset both of your original (and labour) input into the company. I don't know how that might look and would recommend referring to an accountant, unless the two of you can easily work that out. If you can clear both debtors (yours AND H's) from the books, then the company is doing great.

If your H isn't prepared to pull out his capitol investment, then that could be a problem if you plan on remaining a partner in the business.

On the personal side of things, keep working on detaching your personal interests from the business interests.

You noted earlier that you initiated a separation and the business was a means for the two of you to stay together. I'm not sure I get that logic. Can you fill in some blanks, there?

I think that could be helpful to understand what you might want to do, next. ie. Originally, regarding the business arrangement, you were wondering about working on the R and to possibly M.

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

Space/contact only as necessary/drop the rope/end calls first/let him walk over to me(not me to him), all approach comes from him.

Me: GAL, patience patience patience, pray & give my R to God to sort out.

I think the above is a good place to stay, for now. Formalizing the business as business and personal as personal, within your own mind.

If all he is doing is contacting you for business, then all you have right now is a business arrangement. Regardless of whether either of you want to save the R and move forward, together.

So I think also it might be great to understand, what does the "off season" look like, between the two of you? What has your R been like when work wasn't the major focus?

Let me explain...

Firstly, please know that my h is now a work only machine. Especially since BD. He is only thinking and doing things that "make sense" for the business. Im not even sure he takes time out to be with friends anymore. He is doing everything and burning himself out from a business perspective. Although, he does speak of the near future (possibly july) and needing/taking a break... I am not sure what this means for him or me or if even an us?? (fingers crossed there).

IF we are to remain a couple or to vow to work on repair...I am willing to stay in this business.

IF he moves on and can manage to be dating or OW... I cannot! I would not want to be in this business and will have to find a way to dissolve.

As the business is now in the black, it is HIS wish to pay me off first (all monies owed and back salary). He will not take any money, until I have been paid these amounts. There is not enough, just yet to pay both of us in full. But he was adamant since BD for me to have money so that I could buy a house (that he keeps encouraging me to do...guilt? for not providing me with one of our own?...dunno). Same with purchasing a "fun" car through the business, he wants me to have a nice ride....guilt? for me not having nice things?...dunno.

//If your H isn't prepared to pull out his capitol investment, then that could be a problem if you plan on remaining a partner in the business.// ................. explain??

//You noted earlier that you initiated a separation and the business was a means for the two of you to stay together. I'm not sure I get that logic. Can you fill in some blanks, there?// ..... several years ago, I was the WAS because I wanted soooo much more than my rel'p with him was providing. I wanted a marriage, a house, family, joint ventures, etc. It took approx. 4 months of separation (he was extremely lonely, no friends) and he designed this business proposal as a way for us to be "joint". I was desperate and JUMPED at this opportunity, but should have made him "work" more towards relationship issues not just a business venture. Again, I was desperate! and he was lonesome.

As for "off season", it used to be pretty fun, with occasional trips, cottage visits, day trips, beach, seadoo/boating, Saturday dinners, Sunday breakfasts, etc. NONE of this happened last summer.

KD, if all we have is a business arrangement.... what will make us have a personal one? Will it be "after" the "season" as I think he has in his mind?...if so, do I just continue to "business partner back" and focus on selling inventory and bide my time occupying myself, keeping busy/distracted until...? July? and see what happens then?

H texted and called alot today, informing me of his every business move. I kept our convos short & to the point, ended the convo's early. H texted awhile ago to say that he got a problem vehicle running and a smiley face. I did not respond.

When I stop interraction...so does he. I don't want to play the distance/pursuit. Is not responding OK?

He has since then made contact with my D22 and they are going for breakfast in the morning.

~~~~~~~~~~ personal vent on lack of edit feature

First, I have to say I am irked. My use of capitol instead of capital will remain in these archives for a very long time. *sigh*

~~~~~~~~~~~ overview

Yes, it is very clear your H is in work only mode. He has a few motivations. Some are probably unconscious for him. Tucked in there is quite likely to escape.

I do understand that it is confusing for you as the original pretext was for the two of you to use the business as a way to remain together and now he is now using it to escape. For you, the environment and context is familiar, yet (some of) his behaviour has changed. It likely would have been less confusing for you had he simply abandoned the business.

Further, it's confusing because he not only seems to want his space, he also dropped the bomb on you, yet he is working hard to take care of your needs. And it's probably been equally confusing for him as he thinks he wants to end things, yet feels obligated to you and your well being.

I do understand that I'm stating the obvious, I'm just putting it out there again because there's very clear cues, here. I know it's been stated before, so this is a reminder.

+ He wants space - he's burying himself in his work

+ He is confused - he thinks he wants to leave the R (BD) yet he wants to take care of you and your future needs (car, house, clearing debt and wages)

Now I think that confusion is compounded because I get a feeling that he thinks that he's providing you with a car and a house (if you chose to take those offers) when in reality all he's likely doing is paying off debt and wages, I don't think he'd ADD the house and the car if debt and wages were paid off.

~~~~~~~~~~~ business part

Which leads me to what I was saying about the possible problem if he paid off your debt and wages before drawing on the business for himself.

IF he were to do that and you were to accept, then depending on articles of incorporation (or lack thereof) or lack of formal business partnership documentation, he could possibly move forward with the business as sole owner. I am not a L and there's not enough information for me to guess whether he'd have a successful case. I'm just saying that could be a possibility. With your debt paid and his still on the books, you have little leverage to claim business partner rather than short term debtor and employee.

If YOU draw, HE should draw an equal amount. Otherwise, I would suggest that you draw wages and he also gets paid out wages, the loan capitol of both of you stays until it can be paid out equally, in full if need be.

Unless... you are willing to let go the business.

~~~~~~~~~~~~ personal part

Right now, there is nothing. If you two did not work together or own the business together, it is possible that he would bury himself in his work and you would not see or hear from him until slow down.

In that case, all you could do as far as DBing is work on yourself and wait for as long as you could and hopefully become an even more amazing woman that only a fool would leave. And also hope that he "woke up" if this is MLC.

~~~~~~~~ ugly messy business/personal entanglement

So all you have right now is a promise from ~7 years ago, to enter into a business partnership with an estranged partner, in the hopes that business partnership would help solidify a more committed personal relationship and potentially M.

You are still working under that premise... him... not so much...

So here is where it really ends, ball in your court, your choices:

+ stay in the business under the same context as you entered into it, remaining frustrated because what was working before BD is no longer working now, because he changed the game, for some unknown reason, which could potentially be MLC.

+ leave the business. Take your spoils and move on from the business and start a new career and wait things out. Work on yourself and hope that he will eventually notice the positive changes in you, his MLC begins to fade, or business slows down and he has had time to re-think what he wants and decides that he wants you

+ leave the business and give up all hope, move on with your life and work on yourself and create a new future for yourself, what ever may come

+ stay in the business, focus 100% on the business and let go of the R. Work on yourself, become an even more amazing woman that only a fool would leave, and maybe once things slow down at work, he might decide to re-engage in the R.

IDK... what do you think you would choose? At least for now. You can always change your mind at a later date.

Again, PLEASE consult with an attorney to find out your financial rights in this matter. Knowledge is power.

things to think about, thanks KD.

Not sure which of the options I am capable of. For now, I guess the last option is my direction as I do not know any other lifestyle.

As an outsider, which would you choose?

What steps does one take to really let go of the R? Am I not doing it yet?

Journalling:

Again, another Sunday. (Thank God for friends, who keep me busy). Not sure how to fill my time on these kinds of days. I no longer have the routine of my former life to direct me. My Friend dragged me to church this morning, the message was about forgiveness. I cried. We prayed. Then we went for breakfast & a hike around the lake. Came back, joined other friends on the street & was able to guide a friend through her problems. Went for a walk with her. Now, here with DD & Mom. Sundays (like most other days are sad & lonely). I am trying so hard.

I would choose option 4, wfm. I've done it before and I'd do it again. Put my head down, "get the job done" and see what comes later.

It svcks to not know if it is all worth it and that things aren't quite the way they'd be if one had that option to do it themselves.

I do believe that any results worth it are worth doing the work, even if the results are not quite what we think they'll be.

I am not giving you legal advice as I am not a L and this is not the place for that, you should (as we've said many time before) seek or at least research that for yourself. That said, there are two side to that as well. In Canada you may or may not have claim on the business, dependent on certain things and those things are grey. On the personal side, you possibly have claim as common law to the business, regardless of your business ownership or partnership or if it's incorporated under his name only, you would possibly have claim on his share.

DO NOT take what I said above in any way factually. Do find out for sure. Two different acts of law. Much information is available online, even if just to refer and even if you hope to never go that road.

I think you are on your way to doing what you need to, to weather this storm. Keep doing what you are doing and keep reminding yourself that... RIGHT NOW... every conversation you have with your H is likely BUSINESS ONLY.

To touch on the earlier comment of when the personal might come. That will be entirely up to your H. IF he contacts you and it is personal, you will know, and you can act accordingly.

We never no what the future will bring, but the success of the business may... just may... have him feeling good and your professionalism and DB efforts are likely to be noticed... and he might come calling for personal time... for R...

KD.. (HUGE HUGS) and Thank you. I have alot to say, but am tired. I do believe, time to time, he does touch on a few "personal" things. For example, reminding me that my TV show is on, or the occasional smiley, or apology. (all from this past week).

I would not even begin to know where to search online for L info about my unique sitch. One thing that I do know in my heart is that my h, is not at ALL like my ex-h (without morals). H has morals and values, and would not be able to look himself in the mirror, or to face his own mother, or my D if he ever screwed me out of what was fair/ours to divide. This H, is a very fair guy. The business is incorporated.... not sure how that affects me, now.

Quote:

I would not even begin to know where to search online for L info about my unique sitch.

We didn't tell you to look it up online - we told you to CONSULT AN ATTORNEY. This is the time to talk to a professional who knows what they are talking about.

Quote:

This H, is a very fair guy

He may be/ may have been, but it is usually a BAD idea to count on this with a WAS. Many times I've seen a guy who said all the right things initially, but once he realized how much the divorce was going to actually cost him, all that generous talk went out the window. If you can get stuff out of him now while he's still in generous mode, great. But do not rely on this - he could stop at any moment.

Quote:

The business is incorporated.... not sure how that affects me, now.

Incorporated but your name is not on any of the paperwork, is that correct? I'm not sure how that affects you either - that's why you need to consult with an attorney. Just find out some information about your position - seeing the attorney doesn't mean you need to DO anything, but you should find out where you stand.

but, do I see a corporate lawyer or family?... KD, mentioned there was information online.

As always, only a L can advise you on how you might best deal with the business situation in regards to the law.

A business consultant or accountant will often advise a prospective business owner to incorporate if there is a specific need, often revolving around taxes or liability concerns. In regards to liabilities, the reason to incorporate is that while in Canada, the stakeholders have some liability, depending on the concern, generally speaking, a stakeholder is only liable for their portion of the business (generally as a percentage). And further, a business consultant is likely to advise that the business nor other stakeholders are likely to be liable for the debt or liabilities of other stakeholders. So in the event that another stakeholder were to be sued for what ever reason, say it was a divorce, that the business itself would likely be clear of any claim by the stakeholders estranged spouse and that only things like dividend payouts, wages or similar such payments to that stakeholder would likely be able to be claimed against. Operational dollars and corporate assets would likely be free and clear, even if that stakeholder being sued were using it for the purposes of business.

Only a L could advise you specifically about how the courts and legal system would deal with such a situation.

Personally, I would still choose number 4, wfm. Because I would feel comfortable knowing that both my loan and wages would likely be taken care of in the event that a decision to disband or dissolve the business were made. Although I would would personally keep an eye on the business, and might decide at some future date to make a request to have the loan and wages paid out, so I might use that money elsewhere.

Of course, all of the above is simply my own opinion and any choices you make are entirely yours and any legal advice SHOULD be sought by a L as only they can properly advise you in that regard.

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

but, do I see a corporate lawyer or family?... KD, mentioned there was information online.

I think you would know if you signed the letters of incorporation and would likely have a copy if you did so. If you were not on on the letters of incorporation as a stakeholder, then a D L would be the first L I would seek.

OK, but as I have been mentioning, the business is now financially doing well, and H has no problem with me taking out my $$ at this very time. One of the reasons my name is not on the business, is that it was originally his business for more than 20 years. He incorporated it ages ago. Approx. 7 years ago, I joined in. It is possible now that I could ask to have my name placed on the business. Would this help?

On the R side of things, when h does reach out (very little) how should I be responding. I know that it has to be his decision to come back. Is going dim and distancing further working? Not responding to his every text? is all this good?

KD??

Snodderly... in another post you mentioned to read the book "The Solo Partner" and also, as per the link below... that this could be applied in the work place as well... can you expand?

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209&page=1

Anything to do with the business should remain a business ONLY decision. If you want to stay with the business, you could discuss being added to the business with your H. If you are unsure, for example you would not stay with the business if the two of you separated or he got a new woman in his life, then think long and hard about it. It's not something that you change on a whim and once you're committed, you're committed fully to the extent of the law.

Taking out the money, except for wage amount, would probably be the same decision and conversation as above. Again, business only.

On the R side, dim is probably a good place to be. Continue to work on detaching, the two will become easier as time goes on.

Right now, it remains clear that your H is focused almost solely on the business. It's possible that only something extreme would get his attention, either direction. Going dim as a DB technique is for you, regardless. It can help with detaching. Just don't have any expectations. Any results may not show up until business slows down and your H's head peeks to the sun, again.

Keep detaching, keep GALing. How are the 180s coming?

TX again KD....

As for 180's... I still don't know them. I even asked my D22 earlier today, what some of the things H complained about. She didn't recall either, but insisted that I stop taking his crap. Learn to stand up for myself.

Went to a co-d/addicttion meeting tonite and ran into a friend. He was completely shocked to see me there. He even suggested that I be the girl I used to be that he found very attractive over all the years he has known me. Be the confident person that I used to be, and stand up to H.

KD or anyone... based on your reading about me & my sitch. (as I scratch my head).. Does ANYONE know of a 180 that stands out, that you have noticed I should have? that I could be working on?

Found this list of 180's from a previous thread from March:

My Goals/180's:

1) find myself ~ still searching for her!
2) do not be a doormat/available ~ not nearly as avail. as I used to be. At times still a doormat.
3) continue to detach ~ have been doing this too! Dim helps.
4) to be happy... I am a happy person ~ have had several happy moments, looking for more.
5) to be less "needy"/lost ~ not needy, just lost still.
6) to be more involved with my daughter ~ we have dinners, want more time with her
7) to be confident ~ work in progress!!
8) make friends ~ have made a few, making more (joined church)

9) let h pursue me ... I DESERVE this much!
10) let h contact me
11) let h prove his love for us
12) have h fall in love with me again & maintain that love/admiration

~ 9 thru 12 ~ backed wayyyy off. I'm just maintaining space and letting him close the distance instead of me running towards him which just makes him run the other way

13) sell lots of product/downsize the business ~ accomplishing!!
14) find Positive Attitude & maintain ~ daily struggle
15) marriage/reunion ~~~ fingers crossed (gotta have hope)

See a family law attorney to find out where you stand. Sounds to me like this is H's business, which you infused with cash and have been working for free in.

You may not want to put your name on the business unless you know for sure what the debts of the business are. Do you do all the accounting?

kml... there are no debts. Yes, I do the books.

on the personal side of things:

h just admitted to me that he didn't return my text yesterday because of *excuse ~ busy, cutting grass, miserable* and that sometimes I don't return his messages.

..... wth? Is going dim not working for him? He has mentioned here and there and noticed that I don't return calls, that I turn out of the driveway in the opposite direction, wondered what I am doing (personal and work), etc... Is my distancing, making him mad?

Today I can tell he is a little bit short wicked. Guess I need to be happy & stay out of his way.

"when h does reach out (very little) how should I be responding."

Positively but not go overboard.

"I know that it has to be his decision to come back. Is going dim and distancing further working?"

Only you will be able to answer this.

"Not responding to his every text? is all this good?"

Again, only you will be able to see what kind of response you're going to get. The problem with you is that you'll try something for a very short time (sometimes not even a day) and then say that it doesn't work or get paranoid and try something else that goes counter to what you were just doing.

You have to give any action some time. When you do change your actions, he will initially react with anger or confusion because you're changing the plan. You're not acting the way he's used to you behaving. Any change is bad for him. But you need to show him that you're your own person and will not be controlled by him.

Thank you Bond.... I will stay dim, as planned. I think for the most part he is basically not liking my dim, and stomping his feet. But, that doesn't change anything. He is playing it back on me to hurt or get back at me. I think this is where I am not supposed to take the bait.

I have been such a "business" person with him more and more each day. I do not even ask personal stuff at all. I try to be perky, upbeat & sounding busy, getting off phone, helpful, etc.

I have been monitoring how my going dim has been affecting him. He has noticed and mentioned it a few times. I can tell he isn't liking it, but any other way I dont think he will respect me or see what he is losing. He is a very stubborn person. But, if I want him to pursue me, isn't this the ONLY way?

Bond, I went to my first co-d meeting last night. 1st night was just understanding the program, next week hopefully I will learn more about me. My friend was there, he was shocked to see an unhappy, lack of confidence, broken wfm. This is not at all who I AM! I don't let h see THAT anymore. I hope he can't see any of that, because I know it makes him want to run away from me.

"I think for the most part he is basically not liking my dim, and stomping his feet. But, that doesn't change anything. He is playing it back on me to hurt or get back at me. I think this is where I am not supposed to take the bait."

I don't understand why you just can't stop the mindreading.

that wasn't mindreading Bond. He said that yesterday he was miserable and then stated that he didn't text back because I sometimes don't. That's payback! But, why?

There's no point in asking 'why'.

There must have been a reason why the issue about the 'texts' came up. Did you bring it up?

If it's not about business, just leave it. You can respond every now and then to be friendly, but don't read anything into them.

yep... i asked him why he didnt return my business related text...he replied busy, cutting grass, miserable, and that I don't return his texts always.

Then those are his reasons. You don't need to question them. Just tell him that those were important texts to the business and that you needed a response and in the future if you do not hear from him within (time limit), you will make your own decision and he will have to live with it.

ok sure.. but the point im trying to make is that he is punishing me for not returning his texts always. Like its a game. I'm doing it for my sanity and to be dim. He is doing it on purpose!

We all get the "point". The thing is...AGAIN...that it doesn't matter how HE acts. What matters is how YOU act.

ok... i get it!

Adjust and follow your prior list of goals and 180s, wfm.

And as bond mentions, do your best to STICK HARD on them for at least two weeks. That will be your next "check" on your H's response, not before then.

stick hard? you mean stick to the dim plan? OK...

H tried to get me to do a vehicle switch with him. I wasn't feeling like seeing him so made arrangements for DD to help me out. Then, go figure... vehicle breaks down side of road. So, long story short had to call him to rescue. Figures, no makeup, hair and clothes a mess!

H came, to rescue but we ended up calling a tow truck... I insisted 3 times for him to go, as he sat there talking discussing other business stuff. I was trying to let him feel I could handle it. So, he left. The tow truck came more than an hour later, just as its gettting dark and foggy.

I ususally would call H to say, that I made it back... so should I? (or STICK HARD) or wait to see if he checks on me? what if he doesn't?

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

Found this list of 180's from a previous thread from March:

My Goals/180's:

1) find myself ~ still searching for her!
2) do not be a doormat/available ~ not nearly as avail. as I used to be. At times still a doormat.
3) continue to detach ~ have been doing this too! Dim helps.
4) to be happy... I am a happy person ~ have had several happy moments, looking for more.
5) to be less "needy"/lost ~ not needy, just lost still.
6) to be more involved with my daughter ~ we have dinners, want more time with her
7) to be confident ~ work in progress!!
8) make friends ~ have made a few, making more (joined church)

9) let h pursue me ... I DESERVE this much!
10) let h contact me
11) let h prove his love for us
12) have h fall in love with me again & maintain that love/admiration

can't control 9 through 12. the first set MIGHT help your H become more interested in you and perhaps he might start to re-engage you on a personal level.

13) sell lots of product/downsize the business ~ accomplishing!!
14) find Positive Attitude & maintain ~ daily struggle
15) marriage/reunion ~~~ fingers crossed (gotta have hope)

It is OK to hope for 15, just put that goal in a box for right now and put it up on the shelf. You can bring it down sometime later IF things go that way.

Why did you keep insisting him to leave? Is it because you couldn't handle him being there? You need to try to be stronger than that.

no.. I was wanting him to feel I could handle it on my own (it wasn't dark yet). And that he could go forward to finshing up other business. I just really wish he would have checked back on us. Then again, i would have normally sent him a message saying we were fine.... but didn't... is this part of dim? sticking hard?

KD.... I see the new 180's... nice !! TX!

"no.. I was wanting him to feel I could handle it on my own (it wasn't dark yet)."

Saying it once would have been sufficient. Saying it 3 times until he left makes a guy feel unwanted.

"I just really wish he would have checked back on us."

Why? You told him THREE times to leave and that you can take care of things. Why would he call after all that insistence from you?

"is this part of dim? sticking hard?"

I don't think there's a word for it.

The point is that you have to know when to push and when to pull back. AGAIN, with you it seems like there's never any gray area. Either you're all in or all out. YOu have to find that gray area.

Example: If he says he will stay, tell him you can handle it ONCE. Then if he insists, tell him thank you and then leave it at that.

darn... so can I fix with a text... saying we are ok?

"so can I fix with a text... saying we are ok?"

STOP! That opportunity (just like the other times you kept asking if you should send a text to clarify) is over. Just learn from it and move on.

WFM,
I can tell you that my situation drastically improved when i stopped mindreading and stopped reacting to every little thing that W says or does. Do I have little things pop up here or there? Of course i do. But you keep the course.
Once I finally realized l, not just said it, but actually realized that this is about me and that she has her own journey then I was able to just be myself and stop walking eggshells. Y'all work together so it's really tough, but you have to keep it light and just be yourself.
I look back now I realize that I wasn't giving my W nearly the space I thought I was until I actually started doing it. A month ago I would be posting on here about every time we talked or texted or what not.
Now we literally text all day long just about. When we see each other we talk like crazy and I don't have to avoid her. I'm ok with what she decides to do in her life because i know I will be ok.
Focus on you!!!

WFM. Try doing what I am doing. I don't initiate conversation. I stopped mindreading and self sabotaging myself with my own destructive behavior and anxiety. Once you stop taking he issues personal you will live a healthier life. Would you care what your co worker thought. No. Hop on my post and read about letting go versus giving up

TX PON... I will do that.

Journalling:

Due to having leave the house when BD, I left without alot of stuff, including toothpaste. So yesterday, I mentioned to h that I needed to go out to get some or to take some from the house. I began my stmt with "when you asked me to leave, I left with just my overnight bag"... he got offended and said "whoa, you aren't telling people that I asked you to leave, because you left because you couldn't handle it, all the fighting"... At this point I was shocked and left it alone. This is not true! When I came back, I said "not trying to start anything but I never left, you asked me to leave, I would NEVER have left"... we calmly debated this for a bit until he stated that he can't recall and alot during that time and its fuzzy for him.

WOW! How can he forget??? He asked me to leave!!! and we were NOT fighting at the time either... we were spending lots of time watching really good movies, take-out meals, etc. I would like to remind him of this too... I forgot.

He mentioned again yesterday, that he still has intentions of renovating his area of the house... which is totally stupid, unless he plans on living with his mom forever! HE is the one who insists he wants to move out of there! Why renovate? Hard wood floors, fire place... for who? no one goes there!! And any future woman would judge him "living with mommy"...right?

UGHHHH!

Going to read PON's thread...letting go!

Couple things, wfm.

First, there is the possibility that your H is MLC. That said, he will NOT remember some of the things that happened, which lead to your current sitch.

That said, even if he is NOT MLC, people have their own specific understanding of things that happen. He may truly believe he never asked you to leave.

In my mind, I seem to remember that my stbx DID NOT ask me to leave. I chose to leave and she alluded that I did not have to. I'd put bets now, that she would tell people she DID ask me to leave. Although that's a bet I could just as easily lose.

The point is, it really doesn't change the sitch as it currently IS. All it does is harp on an unhelpful dialogue of who is "right" and who is "wrong".

For you, the question is: Why did you have a conversation about toothpaste when you simply could have gone out and got some?

This isn't about "how" you asked him.

You could have been all pleasant and said, "hey, hon... I realize I am running out of toothpaste and will have to go to the store to get some, unless you have some extra at the house that I could have."

This is about an item that might cost $6 if you bought the value pack at Costco of four tubes, plus a toothbrush.

I have a feeling, under all the pleasantness of your "ask", you were letting your H know how much this separation has inconvenienced you to have to grab a tube while you are at the store getting other necessities and that your world would be so much different if you were still living at the house.

I do say that with tongue in cheek. And I DO understand that you are still frustrated and angry with him. If that were not the case, then you would not need to keep proving that he's an idiot.

Hi KD.. I def, believe it is MLC (BD after a death, confusion, concerned about life, aging, grass is greener, etc).

I was at the house, which is why I asked about the toothpaste, because earlier he kind of got annoyed when I wanted to make a special trip into town over toothpaste. Thinks I should be "working" !!

In my effort to ask for the toothpaste, it came out that he feels I left (which is a shock)... and then to see his confusion too. I now want to point out to him that no, we were actually getting along during that time, so that he doesn't have it in his head that we were fighting... is that OK to do?

I know ultimately it doesn't matter... but, I want him to understand that his head has it mixed up... maybe it isn't as bad as he "thought" and needs to remember how it actually went. IT might make him not think so poorly of us!

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

Hi KD.. I def, believe it is MLC (BD after a death, confusion, concerned about life, aging, grass is greener, etc).

Then you really need to be operating on that model. He WILL NOT "remember" things the way you (or possibly anyone else, for that matter) do.

If you are operating on the MLC model, he WILL NOT "understand that his head has it mixed up".

Logic and reasoning are not going to work right now.

ok... so does it hurt/help to remind them? non-confrontational, of course. More matter of factly.

wfm, often we will say it may not help OR hurt. Although it CAN chase them further away.

The truth is, it DOES hurt. Not him and not the sitch, BUT YOU.

Because you keep hoping / expecting for a different result. Right now, that's not going to happen. And it hurts you also, by NOT saying anything, because you get frustrated holding it all in.

Everything around the R and him is still hurting you.

More detachment work required.

Tx KD... Im not a fan of detaching, although I know it has helped me ALOT!

I do not want to do anything that risks him being chased further away.

I am trying soooo hard to keep all communication about business only. Not initiating convo's (not even work ones, unless super important). Trying to be upbeat, happy & attractive when I see him or take his calls.

I would love to just chit chat about friendly stuff, days events or even a joke.... but am dim in these areas too, hoping he will lean closer towards me and want to pursue me in that way. Even when we have client meetings, I distance myself from him, walking in opposite direction, and he will come towards me.... all of this, but still friendly.

OH... it is finally "shorts" weather...but I looke like a 12 year old boy with all the weight I lost

Interesting ~

A few times now, and even to my DD my h has mentioned how he finds it strange how some people can move on so quickly into another relationship. He just doesn't understand how they can carry on so quick.

He even asked if I was 'mad' that my friend was able to come out of her 5 year rel'p and after 4 months of deep heartache is now in a full relationship talking marriage. He asked if I was mad?? I said no, that I was not looking yet.

With that being said, it comforts me to know that he is not ready for a relationship. BUT, scares me to think when he is ready... he will be ready. I am sure he considers the grass is greener theory, at times.

Aren't most MLC'ers involved in A?... I haven't read any stories of MLC'ers who aren't.

COMMENTS WELCOME PLEASE.

detach more. It is brutal I know. I am stuggling myself. But honestly just not initiating conversation with her, taking a day off for myself and not telling her, going to open mic, it is all so nice. I don't have worry all day long. I also visual my life without her, it is not that bad besides the kid thing

It might be safe to say that a lot of MLCers have some form of A. Although very certainly, not all are.

My comment would be, MLCers can have some very interesting thoughts. Be thankful that sometimes he will share those thoughts with you. It is impossible to know where that thought is leading him. He could be trying to figure out if the two of you haven't put enough effort into saving the R.

MLC thoughts can drive us crazy. If they share their thoughts, note them and move forward. To do otherwise has an LBS spinning in their tracks.

What KD said ^^^^^ x100, wfm!!

"Aren't most MLC'ers involved in A?... I haven't read any stories of MLC'ers who aren't."

No not all of them are involved. An A partner (like everything else in MLC - new business, new car, new home, etc.) are just parts of their "change" Many look for external things to make them happy when they don't understand that they will only be happy when they are happy INSIDE.

In your case, I wouldn't even think about an A on his part. It's going to be another thing that's going to drive you crazy.

Wfm sorry for highjack. Bond maybe you can answer this question on my thread. Do you think my W is going through some sort of MLC ? She is 41 and last time she came back to me she would often say I think I was going through something etc. she even stated that she was going through MLC to a friend.

today:

h called to swap vehicles, he brought his t-top camaro which he rarely lets me drive. He was smiley/shy when he was dropping it off. I asked him if it was aobut letting me have a nice ride, he said it was about convenience.

Then later, back at our house he offered to make me a coffee, came out with a light snack (crackers & cheese), and then cookies too. We briefly sat with his parents (divorced but friends).

It sure was nice to have a nice "moment"... as opposed to all the "work, work, work" and irritability that I usually get from him.

Baby steps?

Yes these are good steps.

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

today:

h called to swap vehicles, he brought his t-top camaro which he rarely lets me drive. He was smiley/shy when he was dropping it off. I asked him if it was aobut letting me have a nice ride, he said it was about convenience.

Then later, back at our house he offered to make me a coffee, came out with a light snack (crackers & cheese), and then cookies too. We briefly sat with his parents (divorced but friends).

It sure was nice to have a nice "moment"... as opposed to all the "work, work, work" and irritability that I usually get from him.

Baby steps?

Did you thank him for these nice moments and actions? If yes, then how? If not, you should have! Reward positive behavior.

yes, of course... but casually, so as to not feel pressured to do it or not again or that I was focusing/hyper about the "niceness".

I also left in a timely fashion, as to not linger (as much as I wanted too).

I guess on other noteable mention was that he also brought up a casual convo about his friends kid...it was nice to talk about something other than work.

so today... much different. Worked ALL day with h.

Was req'd to work from our old home with h for about an hour. H didn't even offer coffee.

Then, we had clients back to back. Sold 2 units, one being our most expensive. You think he would be happy! But no, he got very quiet. I tried not to ask. Eventually I did, he said he was tired. I know we have another appt. at 6pm, to which I offered to help, he said he could do it. Due to his tiredness, I aslo offered to help relocate vehicles, whatever, etc. He just told me to do whatever I need to do. So... I stayed upbeat & left. Ending with "great job today" and a smile. He said he will call me later.

So... is this detaching? I stayed upbeat, happy to have sold more product, and inspite of his mood, stayed positive.

I think because it was compressed in one post, it looked like you were pushing to help. I suspect the offer to help with the appointment and the offer to help do anything else was spread out over the day.

Any offer to help IS ok, just make one offer and leave it. I think he spoke to that quite well. Do what ever you need to do. ie. If it's something that you know is common in the business for you or him to do, just do it. Such as if at the end of the day the stock gets moved to specific locations and you CAN and he's busy...

idk. i hope that makes sense. That you don't have to ASK him for permission to do the work that needs to get done on a daily basis. The "routine" stuff. Then again, don't go out doing "his" tasks. just like he probably shouldn't be doing the books if that is specifically YOUR tasks.

Make sense?

sure... it was not a push to help, more along the lines of "your tired, I'm still on the go"... I offered only once. My offers were to assist him, as these are outside duties, and he is so tired. Most of my duties are inside, and its soo nice out. We also have a 6pm appt (now), to which he said he will do it himself.... (notice how he dismisses me, and takes appt's on his schedule (confusing to me as MOST times, I am expected to be available for client appt's), so I never know if I am coming or going...,grrrr.

I just feel so bad. I know how "tired" he is... and he is doing it to himself! He is buried deep in his work and his world of work and work only. WHEN? When will he burn OUT and snap out of this???

On the positive side.... the business bank account is looking pretty darn awesome! He seems to be driven by this and using Kevin O'Leary's theory that its about the money!! (not for me)

"(notice how he dismisses me,"

This is YOUR POV. He could have said that because he didn't want you to bother you at night.

" and takes appt's on his schedule (confusing to me as MOST times, I am expected to be available for client appt's), so I never know if I am coming or going"

No. YOU made yourself available. Going back through your messages, you kept saying that because it's your business also, that you needed to be available. If you don't want to go or prefer to have set hours when you work, then just tell him.

Bond... coming or going is a regular occurence. He "says" he wants me to be there for "all" appts. Then at the last minute, he will casually say... "he" is will handle it. But then another time, when I feel he can "handle it" on his own, he will get pissed off at me as I am "expected" to be there, and I should "know better" and not even question it. He dismisses me... I don't like how it feels.

Did you notice my "detachment" Bond? how he was feeling "tired & down" and I didn't get drawn in? (although I am compassionate, I didn't dwell on it). I came back to my parents house & picked up DD to get Sushi take-out to celebrate the sales of today!

Yes your detachment is good. But you still are blaming him for things that are within your control.

"when I feel he can "handle it" on his own, he will get pissed off at me as I am "expected" to be there, and I should "know better" and not even question it. He dismisses me... I don't like how it feels."

That's alot of mindreading. Rather than complaining about it, just say that you are only going to work between the hours of X and Y and leave it at that if you don't want to work beyond what you think you would like.

how bond? how is it within my control? Our hours are roughly 9am-9pm (flex as we have cell phones and are on call 7 days), as required by client appointments. Most times he "expects" me to be at ALL appt's.... then other times, last second he will say he will go do it, without me. Meanwhile, I may have re-arranged my family dinner or a fun event to accomodate.

Any suggestions?

I'm guarantee its NOT mindreading... when the words have come out of his mouth exactly as said. He has used "handle it" and "expected" and "Know better"...

also.. what are your thoughts on his "work only" mode? his lack of sleep, then tired all day, upset stomach issues, exhausted, taking minimal "breaks in the hammock" while slaving himself to yard work as his break between regular job/clients...living only to work with the forcasted image of one day getting to relax?

>>>this is the worst that I have ever seen him get. He is so deep in this mode.

"how bond? how is it within my control? Our hours are roughly 9am-9pm (flex as we have cell phones and are on call 7 days), as required by client appointments."

Are these STATED hours or things you just made up? You're a partner right? Well set your hours if you don't like being on call.

"Most times he "expects" me to be at ALL appt's.... then other times, last second he will say he will go do it, without me."

I don't know how many times I can tell you this. You still say that he "expects" you. Forget about that. What do YOU want? When do YOU want to work? Besides I haven't seen any real indication that he "expects" you to work the same time he does. You keep saying based on what you think he implies. The bottom line is that you just need to do and work when you want to. NO EXCUSES.

I'm guarantee its NOT mindreading... when the words have come out of his mouth exactly as said. He has used "handle it" and "expected" and "Know better"..."

More excuses from you. He's not your father. You don't have to listen to him, yet you constantly do.

"also.. what are your thoughts on his "work only" mode? his lack of sleep, then tired all day, upset stomach issues, exhausted, taking minimal "breaks in the hammock" while slaving himself to yard work as his break between regular job/clients...living only to work with the forcasted image of one day getting to relax? "

My thoughts are that it doesn't fr*cken matter what my thoughts are. AND it doesn't matter what YOUR thoughts are either. He CHOOSES to work and live like this. It's HIS business NOT YOURS. And any way, everytime you intervene he pushes you away. So you stay out of his sights.

ok... today was not much better. H is very irritable (lack of sleep, etc), but to keep taking it out on me??? UGH.... He never says Hello when we see eachother, or Goodbye either. Today, I got a "dismissed" back hand wave after I said my happy bye.

So... the only way I see to be is happy and disregard his mood (as he can OWN it, indepedently of me). He needs to know, I don't take his crap anymore & therefore won't be around for it,...correct?

I did not ask why he was irritable, or ask what the "business action plan" was for today... I just left, pleasant.

H was so nice the other day, then yesterday & today so miserable & Yesterday was a FANTASTIC day financially for us... what makes him think he can be rude & irritable at me? What did I do wrong that he feels he can do this?

Is this part of MLC script or something?

Sheesh!

keep doing what you are doing.

yes, it is normal script / patterns

TX KD... remind me again WHAT AM I DOING? I'm not sure what is working and what is not. Should I continue to be dim? any other suggestions on how to be dim, while "working" together? (I get lost on my goal and when he invited me for coffee/snack the other day... I accepted. Was that right or wrong?)

The other day he even mentioned about the upcoming (if you recall) "saturday shopping" adventures so that we could pick up our vehicle (recall, he left it there... i thoughthe was lying so he could go to a cottage). He was referring to us both going up together this weekend... (recall him saying that I needed to stay behind for potential Saturday sales??)... this is what confuses the heck out of me!! come here, go there, expectations to understand his regimented/confused mind! UGGHHH !!

"ok... today was not much better. H is very irritable (lack of sleep, etc), but to keep taking it out on me??? UGH.... He never says Hello when we see eachother, or Goodbye either. Today, I got a "dismissed" back hand wave after I said my happy bye."

Just because he doesn't say 'hello' or 'goodbye' doesn't mean that he's "taking it out on you". He just doesn't feel like saying it. Stop taking it so personally. I don't know how many times we can tell you that it's NOT you, but him.

"So... the only way I see to be is happy and disregard his mood (as he can OWN it, indepedently of me). He needs to know, I don't take his crap anymore & therefore won't be around for it,...correct?"

Yes, BUT only during those times that he outright disrespects you. Not saying hi or goodbye aren't those times.

I did not ask why he was irritable, or ask what the "business action plan" was for today... I just left, pleasant.

H was so nice the other day, then yesterday & today so miserable & Yesterday was a FANTASTIC day financially for us... what makes him think he can be rude & irritable at me? What did I do wrong that he feels he can do this?

Is this part of MLC script or something?"

What you would be doing right now, is personally dim and business wise setting boundaries.

You are a work in progress, and I do think you are making progress as I believe your detaching is getting slightly better.

How's your GAL, BTW?

Was the coffee/snack business or pleasure? Either way it is OK to accept now and then if for pleasure. If for business, well... it's business... watch your boundaries but it's OK to be friendly with co-workers.

Saturday shopping is business. If you want to set boundaries as weekends off or office only, then no saturday shopping. Otherwise, feel free to go but keep it business, although be sure to look your best and be pleasant and cheerful... in a business kind of way.

You'll get your sea legs, yet.

Bond.. he is this way ONLY to me, anyone else he is "acting pleasant" too. If a friend, or our daughter enters his "space" he puts on a smile & says "hello". So, I do take it somewhat personally. He needs to welcome me with a smile too!

KD... GAL is pretty good, I go to church, I pray (BIG 180's), visit neighbours often, and other friends too, I go to co-d meetings (although I am not sure I will continue as it is a share group, not lessons to be learned), may try a divorce recovery group too, try to spend time with DD, etc.

The coffee/snack was pleasured business. We were killing time between clients back at our home, he offered coffee and came out with coffee/ crackers & cheese/ then cookies. How do you want me to watch my boundaries? After our light snack while working and short social time with his parents, I went back to work, and then left shortly thereafter. Thanking him for the light lunch.

Yes, Saturday will be business. We will not have weekends off as a regular rule as it is typically an expected business day in our industry. If he suggests we need to go again, I will go and look awesome and pleasant too. Yes, in a business kind of way.

TX!!

"Bond.. he is this way ONLY to me, anyone else he is "acting pleasant" too. If a friend, or our daughter enters his "space" he puts on a smile & says "hello"."

He acts this way to you because you are the closest one to him. AGAIN.. this isn't about YOU, it's about HIM.

"So, I do take it somewhat personally. He needs to welcome me with a smile too!"

No he doesn't. It's YOUR choice to feel insulted. You can just as easily choose to brush it off.

funny ~ how I just wish I could pick up the phone and chit chat with h, to see how he is, etc. Unlike MOST on this forum and Due to us working together, these types of calls don't ever get to happen. Would it be so wrong? Is it too soon? Will I ever get to do this? I just miss him so much.

I guess if he wanted to chit chat with me, he'd get over himself and make the effort to call me, right? Guess he needs more space then. (talking myself out of calling). Looking for support.

Originally Posted By: MrBond

Originally Posted By: wfm

"Bond.. he is this way ONLY to me, anyone else he is "acting pleasant" too. If a friend, or our daughter enters his "space" he puts on a smile & says "hello"."

He acts this way to you because you are the closest one to him. AGAIN.. this isn't about YOU, it's about HIM.

Exactly my thoughts. He puts on his "game face" for everyone else. With you, he's relaxed (no matter if you think so or not) and knows he doesn't have to pretty himself up for you and more than that, he (subconsciously) likely thinks that you'll love him anyhow.

Yes, it's tedious and tiresome, but right now you are still the safe person for him. That is actually a good thing.

Please try to wait at least until the weekend. You can chit chat with him on a personal level if you decide to go to Saturday Shopping... IF he brings up idle chit chat...

OK... Tx KD.

Been thinking (just popped into my head), recalling how h is annoyed that others can jump into a new R so quickly and he asked if I was mad because a friend was able to do so within a short period of time. And how our neighbour has moved on quickly to someone else after her 5 year marriage & child with her ex. I'm thinking its possible that he is questioning this because he possibly thought that by now he would be able to jump into something else, or that the grass is greener... and hasn't quite been for him, yet. If this is his thought, what does it suggest?

I know this is purely mindreading, but wondering what it could suggest?

KD, you suggest "game face" and I understand that. Being relaxed and himself around me. Assuming that I will love him regardless of how he treats me. And yet you suggest this is a good thing?...is it really? Can you expand?

"I know this is purely mindreading, but wondering what it could suggest?"

In your case, "wondering" is a bad thing. I don't see why you can't just concentrate on yourself rather than constantly wondering what your H is thinking.

well... because he has made comments about it so much to me and I have suddenly came to this conclusion. I didn't know how to reply each time he did... any suggestion for the next time he does? He even made the same comment to our D22!

"well... because he has made comments about it so much to me"

You mentioned a couple of times. Doesn't seem like alot to me. And again it's him thinking out loud. Why do you have to reply?

"and I have suddenly came to this conclusion."

Your conclusion.

"I didn't know how to reply each time he did... any suggestion for the next time he does?"

Why do you always think you have to have a reply? Just let it go.

"He even made the same comment to our D22!"

So what?

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

KD, you suggest "game face" and I understand that. Being relaxed and himself around me. Assuming that I will love him regardless of how he treats me. And yet you suggest this is a good thing?...is it really? Can you expand?

I don't really know how to put it in a way that might make sense for you.

If you understand "game face" than you should also understand that people with a "game face" are not being authentic.

You have the authentic person. That is a good thing.

Hope that helps.

It's not that he assumes you will love him regardless or anything like that. It means that he is not being fake around you. He may not feel like saying bye or hi to anyone, but feels he needs to put on that fake face to others. Not to you. So you can take it as he doesn't care enough about you to "lie" to you about what he is feeling or wants to do or you can take it as you are the only person he is being real around.

Don't take it personal. Because as much as you think you are hiding it, you're likely not. So you have to genuinely focus on knowing this is not about you and not analyze what he is doing. He is going to do crappy things because he feels crappy. So when he does, think "he must feel pretty low right now to react that way, and that's okay. I'm going to act positive because I feel positive. I'm positive because I like me and has nothing to do with the people or situations around me."

You can do it!

Good stuff Raine ^^^^^^^ !!! I like, a lot!. We'll just scrape and paste that into our online journal...

TX Guys !!! I've been refuelled to go another round!! Thanks for your support.

Friday & Saturday were decent with h... moments spent with coffees/snacks/extra time, etc. Sunday, he celebrated last minute with his mom for her bday, he textd DD to invite her, not me.

He told me this morning that he invited her, I asked why he didn't invite me. I got excuses.

Today, he offered to take me to Costco (as I had mentioned I wanted to go last week) as part of our travels today. I'm going to decline. Maybe, I've been to convenient lately. No more "anxious" coffees, either.

I think you got this one backwards. Don't ask to go to things with him or force him into situations where he needs to lie or make excuses to you. If he reaches out to you and offers something, it's okay to do it.

Yes - remember the dog training rules - reinforce the good behaviors, ignore the bad ones.

I think I should let him know it hurt me to be excluded. We are able to work together, coffee, eat & hang out together... this wouldn't have been such a hard thing to do....for his MOM!

Quick... waiting for your comment on this! Leaving soon!

oh... and as part of sandi's 37 rules..... are we not to accept EVERY invite out? be more casual, not so eager.

You're right. You don't have to. It should be what you want to do, not what you think it's going to do for the situation. I don't think now is the time for you to show emotions to him or let him know you're hurt. It will make you look weak and needy.

Of course I want to spend as much time as possible with him. But, that comes across as needy, so I declined today saying I had errands and other work to finish.

During our ride together today, h opened up about his "feelings". He said alot of the same stuff, he feels he needs to stay at the house with his mom for a while still, and therefore is still debating on putting down hardwood and knocking down some walls, to make it more liveable/fun when home. He also said he hates living with his mom and feels like the stereo type. Hates that he is "mommied". He says he wants to runawaya. Says he wants to enjoy July and August and go seadooing as often as he can. He had pizza again all weekend, and is getting tired of the pizza, chips and beer nights. Spent the weekend working, as late as 10:30 on Saturday night. His buddy is all in love in his new relationship and is travelling in Europe (soon or now?? dont recall). He keeps saying things like "I dunno" and that he wants to runaway. He is feeling old and that he needs to start enjoying the money. Which is why the floors/walls comment. He also enjoys the knick knacks being gone for dusting purposes, although he enjoys the homey stuff. He says he will be a minimalist when his reno's are done.

I tried to validate along the way and did not interrupt. I nodded alot (even tho I don't agree). I validated by saying "I understand how you must be feeling" He seemed to pay attention. I also said "I trust that you will do the right thing" and that I think he should go seadooing this summer. He also asked about my plans, if I was getting enjoyment out of spending time living at my parents. I said no, and that I was working on some things for myself. I didn't expand.

I can tell he is lonely.

I didn't reach out my hand to comfort (like I do) or turn it into a R convo..... as much as I wanted too.

I know he is looking for some huge uplifting thrill. He just can't seem to find it... although, he is working way too much to have the opportunity.

I feel that when I pull back, so does he. I am really surprized that given the amount of space and time I have given, that he has not come towards me. I am discouraged. He seems so sad.

Hi WFM,

Quote:

I feel that when I pull back, so does he. I am really surprized that given the amount of space and time I have given, that he has not come towards me.

Read the sitches and MLC info homework here again...this MLC/WAS stuff isn't usually/ever a couple/few months sort of thing....

I guess I should add, he also mentioned that someone he knows died, and another is wearing 2 bags, and then the accidents he sees/hears. He is greatful for his sitch. He also mentioned that he is greatful to me for our business success, as he doesn't think it comes across.

T^2 - I know its not alot compared to others, but based on HIM, and all the comments along the way. In the beginning he was so greatful that I was giving him time, he used to hug me... now, it feels like he is pulling away further. I would have bet my life on the fact he was coming back, if I could back off. I dont get it.

They will come forward, back away, come forward, go left, go right, back away, go center, come forward...

This mlc thing isn't a "one and done" thing...

Last summer my W started to warm up, this last fall, back to depression and backed away and wanting out of the M, now she "appears" to be warming up...rH's H would do the same, warm, cold, close, distant, etc...

Ever tame a feral cat?

Im just so worried, that what "IF" his exciting thrill that he seems to be looking for, turns out to be another woman?

I know not yet... AT ALL! But, in the near or future theres a possibility right? And that wouldn't be part of a MLC, as it didn't take place in the beginning.

Im discouraged, he was so loving and affectionate and greatful for the gift I was giving him of time. I thought for sure he loved me and would want me back, If i could give him time.... I have. What happened? He seems to go the other way now?

I don't recall rH's hubby ever really leaving her? He was always intimate with her.

T^2 where is your signature?

Magic,
While in MLC, they can pursue, pick up or drop the other person. There is nothing that states they only look for a partner at the beginning. Open your eyes and read the other postings...many may have 1, 2, or more partners before it's over and done with.

You do realize that no matter how much you worry, it's not going to fix his issues? You didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him. He is the only one that can do it.

If you are discouraged now, what are you going to be in a year or so? Your journey technically is just beginning. Yes, he's grateful for the time and believe me, he's been working in overdrive on his business and thinking of renovating the home he shares w/his mother. Some of the mlcers will become workaholics or take on projects to help ease the inner turmoil so that they don't have to think about those issues that are so painful.

What happened? Nothing has happened. He's on his own journey and right now, that doesn't include you in the equation except for work. There is no magic pill that is going to cure him over night. He's not going to snap out of it just because you've been nice or given him space. It takes time and more time for his to heal his inner soul. I suggest that you read up on MLC because it sounds to me, from your postings, you don't have a true clue as to what it is.

rH's husband did move out and they've had their ups and downs. But you know what? She listened to the advice she was provided and read the postings and gave him plenty of space, time and understanding. She learned to work on herself and be there for him when and if he should need her for a sounding board. She became a very independent lady who showed him that she could make it on her own, if need be.

If you want to really get through this and have a viable chance of reconcilation, you will need to LISTEN to what the posters have been telling you. Everything he does is not about YOU. Learn to live your life as if he is never coming back.

Wonka posted on LindaM's thread that it took Wonka 5.5 years to work through the MLC crisis. Your h's could be shorter or it could be longer, it depends up him, not you. So, sit down and start printing off your threads and really read what others have posted to you. You continue to ask the same thing over and over again and you are going to get the same answers over and over again...it takes as long as it takes for him to work through his crisis. There is nothing you can do to speed it up, but you can slow it down by being needy. He needs to keep his focus on him and work through is issues.

As for co-dependency meetings and alanon meetings, until you are willing to listen and do the work, they aren't going to help you. No one else can fix you...only you can decide when you want to be more independent and be a new and improved self. I know you can do whatever you set your mind to do...So get to work.

Start working on Magic. You can do this because I know you can be a spitfire when you want to be. Now, take the anger you are going to have against me after reading this and get to work on YOU!

I don't include the typical signature for privacy reasons, just in case W happens upon here...whether it would work or not is debatable.

But, in short:
-W's father dies summer 2008
-W has EA with old HS BF summer 2009, starts distancing, depressed. EA is cheating on his wife with my W and at least one other M woman.
-IC and I, thionking it was garden variety affair, work to stop it spring 2010.
-Things good until spring 2011, depression, questioning, distancing, etc...
-Summer 2011 phase 2 starts with BD, replay, online cyber-sex chat and vidchat, multiple EA's and at least 1 PA 2012 that ended Jan 2013.
-April 2013 BD #3. D discussed, etc.
-Now "MAYBE" thinking of POSSIBLY working on M. I just don't know because she hasn't told me either way, but actions seem to imply she wants to try, even if just for the kids sake...again, I just don't know.

Maybe re-read rH's threads from the beginning, or anyone's really.

You need to give this a lot more time, imo.

I suggest you read this thread called MLC Signs. Please read it, not just skim or scan over it.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...nt=2&page=1

I just thought that because he isnt having an A now, and hasn't from the beginning...that by the time one happens, it might be the THRILL he is seeking and the beginning of a REAL relationship. One that has nothing to do with MLC anymore.

My friend invited me to go to her house in Florida for a week, to spend with her husband, neices, and another friend of ours and her son,. I am struggling how to go. I want to and I dont.

I will read rH's sitch again, and I have done ALOT of work for myself. The co-d meetings however dont seem to apply. I get ALOT more out of reading the book.

Just today, I didn't reach out and "fix" my h... I sat and listened. (180)

H and I just discussed excluding me from his Moms bday. It wasnt necessarily intentional, just last minute and not a big deal. However he did say that it wouldnt have been awkward if I was there. He proceeded to say how he wants to be comfy around everyone, if he ever ran into my parents. He would sit or say hi with them. But, feels they are avoiding him.

Magic,
Right now his drug of choice is his work and renovating thoughts. Nothing says that he may be one of those that will have an affair, but it's always possible. Your h strikes me as he may be somewhere in replay and as you know, in replay anything can happen. I would suggest that you table thoughts of an affair and leave that one alone unless you see or hear something otherwise.

Why are you struggling w/a decision about Florida? Go and have fun. You need a break and hopefully you'll think of something other than your h. Nothing drastic is going to happen in a week. It's just what the doctor would order up. It will do you good.

I just posted some info on PON's thread about support programs and I did address your comments about your co-dependency support group. Magic, I think you may have the wrong impression about them. They aren't there to offer you suggestions or fix your problems. They are there to give you an outlet to talk about you and your problems. By being in the room and listening to others, you are not only lending support, but you are also going to gain some knowledge from listening that may help you along the way. The same would apply as to when you visit a shrink, they listen and ask questions, but they do not always offer advice. They want you to do the work on yourself.

Unless there is an issue w/the business or some other situation that requires your attention, I would plan to go to Florida for the week. This would be a 180 for you because you would be making a decision to do something on your own w/o your h.

Still mindreading alot of things. Just let it go. Go out with your friends and have a great time.

Snodderly, I replied to you regarding support programs in PONs thread. I think the questions need to apply more specifically. I am ready to do the work !! I want to work on myself!!!

As for the MLC link, I did read it... not alot of that applies to h. Although, alot of "other" MLC script is pretty similar.

I understand he is on his OWN journey and right now, that doesn't include me in the equation except for work. I understand that there is no magic pill that is going to cure him over night. AS MUCH AS I WANT THERE TO BE!!

He's not going to snap out of it just because I've been nice or given him space (however, I thought that this helps the process for the MLC/WAS).

I suggest that you read up on MLC because it sounds to me, from your postings, you don't have a true clue as to what it is.... oh I have read ALOT and have alot of compassion for him and others. I used to be disgusted when I would see an older man in his flashy red convertible, dressed to the nines. I used to think they were pathetic. Now, luckily my h isn't THAT guy. But, his MLC is real. Feels life is short and that there has got to be more out there for him. He is seeking happiness. He thought/thinks that money was going to provide happiness. Just today he realized he may need to spend some of it (as just having it in an account, wasn't making him happy).

As the LBS, I fail to understand and get confused in the goal and what my part is in this. I am trying to focus on me (hard to do, when I am so used to focusing on him). I understand this is his journey to take and he will figure out HIS part. But, I don't understand what else I can be doing to help (from the distance). I need to put the mentality in my head and stick to it. What person do I need to be to make this better for him? Am I supposed to be his friend? Do I stay dim. How can I be friendly and dim? As a friend to my friends, I am involved. Does keeping the lighthouse on/pathway smooth work? Is the goal to let him feel like I am the only one who fully understands him and is still by his side? or am I to have disappeared far enough to let him figure it all out. Please help me understand how to be for him, for my head. (does this make sense?).

.....Please don't just say, NVM about him....work on me! I get that part. I need to put a mantra in my head that when I am around him, I can understand how I need to be.

Working with him seems to ease his desire of time spent with me... just like I worried about. I am really trying to be pretty strict with my business mode and not discuss "personal"...however, he does bring up personal convo during "work" time... trying to be social.

You're still trying to make sense of things that you have no control over and it's killing you. Unless you're the person actually in MLC or whatever, you're not going to get any answers that are going to satisfy you. That's why you need to concentrate on yourself.

MLC IS NOT a disease. There are no concrete behaviors that everyone going through it suffers. Some get an A, some buy a sports car, some totally change their profession and not all of them leave their spouses.

There is no magic bullet. You really need to stop asking "why" because you're never going to get a perfect answer. Many people going through MLC (especially those who don't get C), NEVER understand why. They think (for some reason) that life is beyond their control and that THEY were controlled by everything around them. It comes down to personal responsibility and having strength in yourself.

I really wish there was a MLC understanding group. Maybe that would be better than the co-d group I am attending!!

Is there such a thing?

Bond, I am trying... trying hard to concentrate on myself (its just not like me to focus on me)... I am trying.

AS a LBS of a MLC/WAS, I just want to understand how not to enable this further. Or not to drag it out further. Ways not to make it worse. Just like if I was married to an alcholic, I would want to know how to detach and how not to enable the alcoholic. This kind of information, I feel would benefit and make the journey possibly shorter, but definately more bearable.

It does not matter WHY this is happening, just that it IS. I know this is HIS problem. I do. I empathize for him. It must be hard/confusing... and he is losing his family over it. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

OH... and if I were in his shoes, I would want him to "stand" for our relationship. I would want him to be informed how to stand and how to treat me during this time.

Thats all I want to know.

Thanks,wfm

just my opinion, wfm. You say not a lot of the MLC depression signs apply to your H. Based on your descriptions of his behaviour since being here, I've counted at least 15 or 50% of the signs.

Is he MLC? I think so. But that's my opinion. What I can say is, when you focus on yourself, what you do is working. When you focus on him, it's not working. Whether he's MLC or not, if you feel he might not fit well into the MLC depression signs list (which isn't a definitive list, of course), the work is the same...

When you work and focus on yourself, it works for you. And he shows signs of responding. When you focus on him, it doesn't work for you, and his response is withdrawal. These patterns are very apparent.

Or let me be more clear... he certainly is in a transition, IMHO, and it could border on or be MLC.

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

Working with him seems to ease his desire of time spent with me... just like I worried about. I am really trying to be pretty strict with my business mode and not discuss "personal"...however, he does bring up personal convo during "work" time... trying to be social.

You seem to think the above is a bad thing.

It isn't and it's quite normal for the MLCer to try to remain connected and use what ever means they can to get what they need.

You can certainly go ahead and refuse his need.

You worry that he's going to go have an A. He is less likely to seek it if he's getting what he needs in that respect, from you. No matter how much you don't like that you aren't getting your needs met, right now, you are setting the ground work for possibly saving your R and having your needs met in the future.

"I REALLY WISH" there was a MLC understanding group. Maybe that would be better than the co-d group I am attending!!

"I JUST WANT" to understand how not to enable this further."
"I WOULD WANT" to know how to detach and how not to enable the alcoholic. This kind of information, "I FEEL" would benefit and make the journey possibly shorter, but definately more bearable.

"OH... and if I were in his shoes, "I WOULD WANT" him to "stand" for our relationship. "I WOULD WANT" him to be informed how to stand and how to treat me during this time."

Do you see how you made the whole thing about what YOU want? You're not him. Period. You can study all you want about MLC. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what you do. When are you going to start understanding that? You have a problem with control.

Thats all I want to know."

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

You worry that he's going to go have an A. He is less likely to seek it if he's getting what he needs in that respect, from you. No matter how much you don't like that you aren't getting your needs met, right now, you are setting the ground work for possibly saving your R and having your needs met in the future.

This is my plan. I work on maintaining our connection and building on it. I don't want OM filling W's emotional needs.

When she is receptive, I engage. If she is cool, I give her space.

Oh, and welcome to the (best) MLC support group!

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

As the LBS, I fail to understand and get confused in the goal and what my part is in this. I am trying to focus on me (hard to do, when I am so used to focusing on him). I understand this is his journey to take and he will figure out HIS part. But, I don't understand what else I can be doing to help (from the distance). I need to put the mentality in my head and stick to it. What person do I need to be to make this better for him? Am I supposed to be his friend? Do I stay dim. How can I be friendly and dim? As a friend to my friends, I am involved. Does keeping the lighthouse on/pathway smooth work? Is the goal to let him feel like I am the only one who fully understands him and is still by his side? or am I to have disappeared far enough to let him figure it all out. Please help me understand how to be for him, for my head. (does this make sense?).

As the LBS, I fail to understand and get confused in the goal and what my part is in this.
As I understand the DB approach, you DON'T have a part to play. Having a "part" would mean you could share the MLC.
HE HAS TO DO THIS ALL BY HIMSELF.
I am trying to focus on me (hard to do, when I am so used to focusing on him).

Originally Posted By: Cadet

The fault that most of us here have is that for years we enabled their PAIN and tried to help them.
After a while the enabling still did not take away their PAIN.
That is one of the reasons they are in crisis.
Nothing that we or anyone else did could take that PAIN away.

I understand this is his journey to take and he will figure out HIS part.
But, I don't understand what else I can be doing to help (from the distance).
If you fully understand the first of these two sentences, then you wouldn't ask the second. HE HAS TO DO THIS ALL BY HIMSELF.
What person do I need to be to make this better for him?
WFM, read the above question. Is that a question that an independent, strong person would ask? No, I'm sorry, but its not. MLC IS HIS JOURNEY, HE HAS TO DO THIS ALL BY HIMSELF. And if he doesn't, if you manage to pretzel yourself, or somehow prematurely snap your H out of it, then the MLC will come back with a vengeance. You have to let the MLC run its course without trying to speed it up. Yes, this svcks, and hurts, and is incredibly hard.
Am I supposed to be his friend? Do I stay dim. How can I be friendly and dim?
Dim would be not initiating things. Being his friend would be being friendly and cheerful when HE initiates contact. Being appreciative of his efforts. You CAN be a dim friend.
As a friend to my friends, I am involved.
Your H is a special category of "friend".
Does keeping the lighthouse on/pathway smooth work? It might. There is no guarantee. But it might take YEARS. But, if you are looking for a "role" THIS IS IT - PERIOD. No, make that EXCLAMATION POINT!
Is the goal to let him feel like I am the only one who fully understands him and is still by his side?
WHAT??? If you could even do this, what would the result be? That your H would be totally dependent on you? Would that be healthy for him? The goal is for him to understand himself. And to do that, HE HAS TO DO THIS ALL BY HIMSELF.
or am I to have disappeared far enough to let him figure it all out.
Yes! WFM you got it! And while he's figuring it all out, you are becoming the most fantastic delightful wonderful WFM the world has ever seen! You will be so brilliant that you could be mistaken for a lighthouse - by which he will find his way "home".
Please help me understand how to be for him, for my head. (does this make sense?).
Please help me understand how to be for him, No no no. Nothing "for him", everything "for wfm". Be the best you - but WFM, you don't know who that is, do you? You have given everything away over the years... Now is the time to get it back. To figure out WHO YOU ARE. You must become an individual.

Originally Posted By: waitingformagic

I want to work on myself!!!

Great! But why? For your H? Or for yourself? Your mindset needs to be to "work on yourself" for your own benefit. Not to make H notice. If he does, great. But if he doesn't, oh well. T(That's part of the zero expectations idea.)

You can do this wfm. But you must let go of your H first.

Magic,
I have spent 13 years studying MLC and to be honest w/you, you will never get all of the answers to the "whys, what if's, how can they do this or that" questions. Mlc is not recognized as a disease in today's society. It is an emotional journey for those who travel it. We all go through transitions, but some do not have the proper coping skills, which, in turn, trigger the full blown crisis. Mlc is not just about the little red sports car, younger women/men, gold chains and muscle shirts. Yes, we all grew up thinking those things because no one really talked about it many years ago. The first time I heard about it was when Bill Clinton did his dirty little deed w/Monica.

In the real world, I've not seen support groups for MLC. There are a number of MLC forums on the web and I can honestly tell you that this forum is the most compassionate one. I am a member of 5 different forums and I will be perfectly honest w/you, they would not tolerate the constant questions that you ask 10 different ways and they would shut you down very quickly and tell you to get a life and let the man go. This forum is one of the best ones out there because the posters come here for advice and take what advice that applies to their situation. The posters actually care about the people posting, not just here but in the real world. Bottom line, support groups are available to help anyone w/their problems, but most importantly, they are there to help you get back on your feet and to find solutions on your own that would fit your particular need. They will not have a magic potion to help you get your SO back. They focus only on the person attending the group.

You have been given a lot of "free" advice/suggestions that would have most likely have costed you thousands of dollars by now had you been visiting a counselor or a therapist. One of the things that I have noticed is that you are still looking for a magical potion to fix the problem. You are expecting people to tell you what to do or how to fix the situation. There is no magic pill when dealing w/mlc. You can't fix the problem. It's his problem to fix. The only person that you need to worry about right now is yourself. You are the one that is technically out on the street. What are you going to do to make your life better? How are you going to survive if your SO decides he doesn't want you back under the same roof w/him? You need to be planning how you are going to make your life better in the short duration because from what you have posted, it doesn't look like he is ready to have you come home.

Magic, I am very much aware that you are frustrated because you can't get the answers you want, but I can honestly tell you this...until you drop the rope and leave the situation alone, nothing will change. You need to take your entire focus off your personal relationship w/your SO and turn the focus back on to you. Changes take time and it could take a long time for those changes to become permanent and for him to see that changes are taking place. As pointed out over on PON's thread, there are no guarantees in life and no one can guarantee that you and your SO will reconcile. But, I can assure you, that if you listen and apply some of the advice/suggestions that have been provided to you, your chances are far greater in having a civil relationship w/your SO than if you continue to remain stuck in the muck, stomping your feet, always wanting answers to questions that none of us can answer, not even your SO can answer them at this time because he may not even know why he's doing what he's doing.

Life is far too short and you have spent entirely too much time focusing on him and trying to be a mindreader. Magic, it's time that you live your life for you.

It's been quite awhile since I've been on this site. I remember hearing advice that told me to move on with my life, don't let my WAH take my life with him.

It's been almost a year since my husband lived in our house with me and and our Ds. It's been six months since the separation and divorce has been filed. I have gone thru really hard times and honestly believed I would never make it without him. I was wrong. It took every ounce of strength and determination to pick myself up and move on.

My husband had the "perfect storm" brewing when he walked out on me. He was the MLC king. He changed everything about himself...they way he looked, dressed, his interest, got involved with a woman 10 years younger than himself, he gave up everything he owned and gave up his relationship with his own daughters. He was and still is a man in crisis.

I have gathered myself together, even fired one lawyer that wasn't helping my cause. I now have a lawyer that will do what I need to secure my future and who is looking out for my and my daughters' best interest. I would never believed anyone if they said a year ago, I would be where I am today.

I was told many times in this forum that I would change. I didn't believe it would happen, but I have changed. I lost a man that I loved for nearly 30 years. But, that man doesn't exist anymore. A man I only know as a stranger has taken his place. I do mourn the marriage I had. But, I have gained so much since this time last year. I have met people that have added so much good to my life. My relationships with my daughters, family and friends have grown into unbreakable bonds and over flowing love. I may have lost my husband, but I have gained so much more in my life.

So, a year later, I am still going thru a divorce. I am on my second lawyer. I have friendships that have grown stronger. My daughters and I are closer and have a bond that can never be broken. My heart is full of love and I am loved by so many. I have had some hard lessons and have been thru hell and back. I have stayed true to myself and friends and family. I have a wonderful man I am now spending time with. He treats me the way I deserve to be treated. I never knew this kind of man existed, but he does and he's in my life.

As for my STBX, he lives alone, doesn't have any belongings to speak of, has a GF that he can't introduce to anyone because of the shame and embarrassment the relationship started from. He doesn't have a relationship with our daughters because of all the lying he had done. He has become a lonely man with not much in his life. Maybe this is what he wants. All I know is, there is that light at the end of the tunnel. It's a very scary journey to get to that light, but I have become a stronger person by making my way through.

Those of you trying to hold onto a relationship that isn't "there" anymore, ask yourself if fighting for something only you want is worth losing who you are. I'll say the thing I didn't believe when I first read it here myself.....find your own life. Take care of the relationship you have with your children. Lean on the people who love you, you can't do this alone. You WILL be ok. You will probably find that your life can be better than you ever imagined. I did.

Good luck to everyone. Don't rely on someone else to make you happy. Find your happiness within yourself :o)

Magic,
You may want to think about starting a new thread. You now have 113 postings. Your thread fills up quickly. Try to make the new thread about you and what you want to do w/your life, i.e., focusing on you.