first time need help - still (new thread?)

hopefully i made a new thread here- i couldn't find directions and thought i remembered??

New thread works...

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know several that pushed off immediately and now express possible doubt about being sooooo hasty. our society sure "demands" a certain type of action/reaction from us doesn't it?

Yes, it does.

That is the beauty of doing it differently, you learn to listen to yourself and decide what YOU want, not what "they" think you should want.

hey hi-

oddly - i can buck the norm- what i can't seem to do is know what i want anymore from this r or this man. i honestly do not know. i hate ANYONE telling me what to do- but knowledge about what specifically i want from him & future has not come to me. yet - - - i sure hope it does in the end. only my vague, usual "wanna feel happy" . how to achieve that? anyone's guess...

dawnmarie- (or whoever passes thru) just a worthy thought - compliments of (of all people) Mary Pickford.

" You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down"

Hey Nero, your new thread is fine. Now go into the 1st page of your last thread and copy the URL address: example www.divorcebusting.com/forum.............and all the rest it says. Past it to a post here and now people can read some of the older stuff.

sooo- it's such a beautiful beautiful fall morning. just got home to a message on the phone- h - what the??? he's usually really out of touch when he's in fl.
He may be entering a new phase...he is reaching out a little though, think about how your going to handle anything he may say. You still may be his safe place to return to, my H calls it a connection as says it's a good thing.

your h sounds like he is seriously "committed" to you and m and family in his own wierd way.
I know, it's very unsettling because he's not enough for me (as is) but I can't shake him either. I know this will either end by me or I feel it may linger foreverrrrr. He's committed but with half a foot out the door

you think he can even imagine you not "being there" in his life? probably not-
I don't think so but I know he is willing to sacrifice that (at least when he's manic) he is the type that could live life in regret. But, ultimately no he doesn't "want" me out of his life, but he won't do anything to prevent it.

i become all self sufficient($$) and that makes me less conciliatory - OR - the big OR , IF I meet someone and begin to see a different life with dxifferent people. any one would spell THE END in no uncertain terms.
That's it we need a life with different people because this one is so lonely. That's what they don't get it's the loneliness that's going to turn us, going to make us look elsewhere for a smile, a look, a touch, how long do they think we can sit cold and alone.

In your last post you said it was the loneliness was the worst...your right at the end of the day it is us in our rooms, on the couch, in front of the stupid tv, alone. No hugs, no soft touch, no laughter, no gesture of hot tea, no stinking thing at all. I'm sick of myself already.

I can GAL all day....but in the end we still face that were alone without love. That is going to be my downfall. That is why I sometimes cry to him...and he's home...and I'm lonely. But, ultimately that's going to be why I stray...I can see myself longing for conversation (mutual - not me coddling him and his only interests) I long for face to face, for a gesture of sweetness.

Come on were women were not to be put on a shelf. I'm not seeking anything but I wouldn't shy from it anymore. I just wouldn't to cheat - but hey emotions being met, would that make me in an ea sitch. Who knows...I don't really care either. After all it is basic human necessity.

I don't know, I feel it every day, even in the mists of everyone being home. They all have their sweeties and I look at them and can't believe there made of HIM! They have their lives, he has his ea, best friend aka depression, and I have his fallout and their attention when it's convenient.

Can you guess I'm home alone right now!

No, I wouldn't want to sub teach I don't really like kids very much, I like to give them back quick or let them get away with everything. Every year I make a few bucks doing taxes for the teens around here. I should just take the stupid course and do taxes in an office.

You certainly do a lot of projects and are keeping busy. You sound so much more productive than I. I like the idea of your mailbox, sound pretty.

nice quote: I'm stuck in the down right now. But, I'm hopeful

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In your last post you said it was the loneliness was the worst...your right at the end of the day it is us in our rooms, on the couch, in front of the stupid tv, alone. No hugs, no soft touch, no laughter, no gesture of hot tea, no stinking thing at all. I'm sick of myself already.

I can GAL all day....but in the end we still face that were alone without love. That is going to be my downfall. That is why I sometimes cry to him...and he's home...and I'm lonely. But, ultimately that's going to be why I stray...I can see myself longing for conversation (mutual - not me coddling him and his only interests) I long for face to face, for a gesture of sweetness.

You put into words exactly how each and every night has been for the past nine months since H moved out. In fact, I think it was this way for some months before he left too.

I reach out to friends mostly via text to help with the loneliness and I'm trying to have people over more, especially in the evening and on weekends. Seems to help. Right now all men seem like Lucifer in disguise so I'm not looking for any comfort from one--but the need to connect with someone and feel nurtured, loved, understood is still there. Not sure how to duplicate that?

Heather

holy crow heather- you just described my feelings EXACTLY. IT'S PItiful isn't it?

it's the darn memory(ies) of what it feels like to be valued & "special" that make it soooooo unimaginable to spend the rest of eternity feeling sooooooo "NOT", now.

what the heck is a girl to do - feel - think - ??????? it's sad and scary (and weirdly comforting) to hear someone describe 3exactly what is in my heart-gut - dawnmarie too- i push back my chair and don't know whether to laugh or cry-

oh man- do you guys think that in a lifetime every person goes thru something this awful and gut wrenching- of some variety - ???

my girlfriend told me a story yesterday about her neice's boyfriend (a troubled & jealous man) shooting himself in the head six inches from her face after saying "look what you've brought me to do" - bam. i keep thinking about this mentally disturbed man doing it- and my horror and thinking how fortunate for her that he merely wanted to kill himself - and not her. it's soooowierd i can't believe it's something in the life of a person i know - and feels kind of close to home.

got me wondering about the "personal tragedies" of people.

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Right now all men seem like Lucifer in disguise so I'm not looking for any comfort from one--but the need to connect with someone and feel nurtured, loved, understood is still there. Not sure how to duplicate that?

oh man- me too. i flip and flop over just getting a puppy- boy, do i ever have commitment issues of my own or what?

i like your description tho- makes me feel better about my own revulsion and paranoia about men. i've never even thought of stuff like this in 61 years - til now.

wow- the fallout is massive huh?

i know- me too. i am determined not to stay down tho- i may be a slug and very very lazy about jumping into giant life changes and being all "back up and running". - "prudence" would be a perfect middle name for me.

BUT SO, shoot me. you too- no one is going to take away our birthday for not becoming "cured" faster. it's just (i guess) the way it is. grief- loss - we're still probably lot better off than most because at least if nothing else- we've found this place to share the junk & misery and if i'm sure of one thing in life (and it might only be that one thing) i think dark thoughts and feelings are ALWAYS better out than in. the whole keeping stuff like this only in your own mind - i'd say is a good ticket to crazy-ville. (well, or alcohol land or drugs central) - somewhere bad.

will be back later- have alot of comments to your last post- but am a bit buggie and edgie and need to go burn off this caffein before i can sit still and "chat". hope your morning is excelltn.

i wanted to comment one bit about the positive-ness of your c saying that your h could definitely be helped to go back to person was and should be by drugs. can't imagine how to make it happen- but seems hopeful to have someone "offic8ial" opine that he might be in there if you could extricate him. xxo

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You still may be his safe place to return to, my H calls it a connection as says it's a good thing.

i was reading this - and your comments- and the phone rang and it was h. I picked it up thinking maybe you're rite and i should maintain the connection. we had a very pleasant conversation. then when i got off- i realized probably he calle din a.m. to "get me out of the way" because his evening was (perhaps) going to see ow. then of course, me in less than cheery mode. not misery- so that's something huge- i didn't stress or let it ruin my day. BUT- it did intrude into my thoughts and take the fun out of the nice conversation.

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I know, it's very unsettling because he's not enough for me (as is) but I can't shake him either. I know this will either end by me or I feel it may linger foreverrrrr. He's committed but with half a foot out the door crazy

oh man - ditto for me. i am beginning to think i will end up HAVING to be the big ogre too when i finally cut him or myself loose out of sheer self-preservation and need for human interaction with someone that actually wants to be there with me. I'm mighty sick and tired of feeling like i'm some giant burden to be around. i mean- really..... i have friends who are more than happy to interact with me. if he's soooooo lumbered with me- what the heck is stopping him from walking? it's sick isn't it? do you think it's a power thing- they just keep us because they can and it makes them feel all in command and powerful to jack around some poor sap they think looooooveeesss them sooooooo much?

i swear - i don't know most of the time and don't care to fgure anymore the rest of the time. i'm marking time here-

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But, ultimately no he doesn't "want" me out of his life, but he won't do anything to prevent it.

i know- me too. wht the heck is it with these guys that they cannot make the decision- one way or the other and stick to it dammit. much like their original commitment to us- just decide it and do it- that is that. nothing fancy- just do it...

phone call- need to go- will be back later..xxo

My H tonight went to N side early for work and is sitting inside ea/ow house. She called his business phone # earlier which forwards to me when he doesn't answer and it was her. She usually talks to me telling me how he's a pain and won't stop trying to have someone to talk to when he's up N.

In reality she's calling him but covers for the call forwarded to me. He insists there friends as does she who has said I can come over and see she's no prize. I DONT CARE!

So back to him being there now...I called her house (first time in a yr I'v ever done anything) and she answered. Through my silence she realized it was me and said to my H "it's for you" as he got on the phone saying hello I stayed quiet and he said there's nobody there and hung up. (he's dense)

I think he answered as a way of not hiding (since he says he has nothing to hide) from anyone who may have tracked him there. Otherwise, I can't imagine what was going through his head. I WANT TO PUNCH HIM IN HIS F***N FACE!

He'll be home from work in the am and I don't know how to make sure he doesn't feel like he's getting away with anything he wants to do. Wow, Im starting to ramble.

I want to create boundaries so when he comes home he see's that his actions have consequences but not "in your face' kind that would make him angry and then win because now he's loader and meaner.

I wish I could just leave...make him see that he has forced me make the choice for him and be gone! Let him rattle around this house, realizing it's not a home very much anymore if I'm not in here.

You said if you had a bazillion dollars would it make a difference, I think yes, because though we would still be disappointed in the men of our choosing we would have the confidence and security to not stick around. Even if we were just getting away temporarily the opportunity would be very inviting.

I don't have a lot of $$$ but I do have a credit card and I tell you it is burning a hole in my wallet calling out lets go!

Sorry this is more of a rant than anything!

Oh Dawn, I'm sorry that happened. I know the feeling and it [censored]. Its not about you, but, yes, it's really unfair and you deserve to be treated better.

Much love,
Heather

hey hi-

oh crap - poor you. RANT AWAY- it sounds totally warranted i think- and you rarely seem to just let loose.

i will be interested to hear how you make out with boundaries and so on. i am terrible at it i think- in my mind i refuse to be treated so crappily- i don't make a fuss or issue any demands - a feel abused and think i cannot possibly accept it- then i do- i just don't know - as usual- i'll either end up mothr theresa or blow up someday- ka boom - blood & guts allover the room - contents under pressure-

i have never dialed the ow number becasue quite frankly- i don't know what the heck i would say - to either of them. i hate to give her the satisfaction- and acknowledgement. he knows i know- i know he knows - i feel like you, there is nothng about losing me that is stopping him from the self-gratification. what could or would i say- don't? i know? can't imagine- hate it and them for all the things they make me feel & endure.

i'd like to be more mystical about it- all this mlc stuff- it may well be true- BUT - FOR ME - i do not see this man as anything other than a self-centered person who has endeavored to "have it all" - lied to me to keep me around for whatever lame reason-= while allowing me to love him and see a future and WASTE MY LIFE ON HIM. (with malice) he knew it all the time - and he did it anyway. i did not matter if it came to his entertaimnent or my heart. face it- he'd throw me out of the lifeboat to save himself. sorry to know it.

. this ow is someone that has apparently been there FOREVER in our life- flirtation back in early days ( i never ever even suspected- he volunteered that) and they have kept each other around forever - that ole "greener grass" out there. what? they were each other's secret fantasy and met up a time or two a year- in retrospect- any time i've had a giant giant crisis in life - and wasn't around- he used it to - what? to do her? i'm thinking very probably. he was never "there" in those times - emotionally. probably his detachment was his stinking guilt- what a bum.

this morning- i look at your note- i think of my "life" and i'm thinking they are selfish people who probably do not warrant our love. i hate to let go of my "love" (fantasy) - my life (fantasy) - even if it's been my own delusion - . also like you- i agonize over this jerk that doesn't give me a second thought. and I MAKE IT EASY for him to do.

does that make it easier to walk- no , not really. the gazillion dollars- i guess would really make all the difference. i gues syou could subsidize alot of self-respect with a million bucks. i have no idea why i allow people to treat me like junk- some stupid egotistical notion i must have that i am "seeing" something that they do not. they are what they are- mean & abusive (in some sense) and i am sucking it up for some insane and unknown reason & character flaw in me.

i would like - on a minute to minute basis- to punch a little (of his) face- but don't even want to indulge in violence or the actual having to do it. (ick ick ick- ) when i put him in perspective- i do not see someone hurting. i see someone self-indulgent and spoiled. his life may have had it's "downs" - that does not justify what he does to other people. nothing does- there just does not seem to be any justification out there in life. you do the crime- you do the time. it is/was all his own choice - knowing the consequences (possible consequences). just "me first" pure and simple. how i could have not noticed this for my entire life- well, i am disgusted this morning with my own insanity over that. love is nuts - not blind. well, blind & nuts...

today- i'd say i am a giant fool to even be here in his life- it's been a depressing morning (poor little gal next door and her wheelchair- stroke victim-diabetic- mother). now a staph infection in her leg- she's got to go back to pa to her job/husband/life- she needs the break. afraid to go- emotionally unable to stay one more minute - we blubbered together for a couple hours- it's a tragic sitch there- she's had her father and brother die in past four or so years too- i cannot imagine where she gets the inner strength to carry on - it is such a black hole & sooooo hopeless pretty much.

even seeing that doesn't make me feel any better about myself enduring this crap for probably nothing. i mean - really- what can this man feel for me???? if he can be a shallow enough for 30 years to have this ow - in touch- gag me - really..... i think that says it all. at best i was a useful diversion - one who cleaned the house- traveled well and was "there" for him. no "there" for me.

think i'll go take a bike ride- i wanted to mention your comments of other day about you being there for the crumbs of affection and left overs emotionally of everyone when they had the need or time (i'm paraphrasing - but something like that) i feel it too. what the heck ?????

what the heck makes us bottom less pits of understanding and caring in the face of everyone elses preoccupation with their own selves- lives - loves, etc. it's a very shabby thing about life- feeling ALONE and not even crucial to the lives of those you (think you) love and should love you. - today - i feel we are (possibly - giant ) fools. well, me anyway. hate to take you out with me- what the heck man??????.......

i sure am at my worst this morning. sorry about this all-

i hope you are feeling better or doing better. h ow the heck will you set boundaries without "going there"??? i cannot even bear your sitch- i don't know how you do. it's sooooooo cruel- really. i can't believe ow can talk to you- i would hang my head in shame if i were her. it's awful- this stuff is enough to destroy one's faith in human nature or human goodness- where the heck ARE the good people with values? i'm wondering...

dread that thought of my mother - she's been on a tear last couple days- poor old thing is absolutely (and militently) certain she's never ever mentioned to me my sister and the $$ she's borrowed and alllllll her hate and anger. OH MY GOD_ ONLY Several times a day for the last decade - heellllppppppp....

and then- the two other sisters - have decided to take over running the show with my mom's beach house - that my oldest sister (controlling- clueless- spendthrift) has managed to financially decimate- oh my Gosh- the people in my life at this very moment make me nuts- i need to forget them. i was even rather "calm" yesterday- stupid stupid me. never relax -

does this junk ever just go away? i think not

SORRY toyou for my rant- maybe it's the mmoon or something. now- bike ride - i'll put it on low gear and work really hard. maybe i will come home inspired to do chores & some work on computer- need to make a few $$ if nothing else (to motivate me). cripes------- what a day (and it's only 12!)

((((((nero)))))) we both sure sound like we need hugs!

We need to really work on ourselves. I don't think you give yourself enough credit , hey that's what people tell me.

Your pretty active doing things and talking to people. I can go days before having a talk with someone and never about what's going on with me. My friends only want to hear nice things.

I need to work on me, h is in my head way too much! I'll let you know how I do that when I figure it out

hey hi -

((( )))- boy do we ever. here's one back.

i am like you- too much this guy in my head. truly- i do not know how we hurry ourselves to a place where we hate this life with them - more than the one without them. i am not cheery girl this morning- another jacked up sleepless nite- oh boy...

when i am "real" (like now) and consider what i "have" with him- or could have- i am not sure there is something worth allllllllll this. the pain, uncertainty- etc. i would say it is my insecurity and those sad ole (happy) memories of how it felt to be loved - that make me stay.

i'd say this morning that i'm rather pathetic in a not terminal kind of way. it's this "being wounded" thing that is holding me down at the moment. i do have faith we can get up and dust ourselves off and tra la off into the sunset. will I find someone else to share my life with (and i am a person that likes having a shared life) honestly, i don't think i will. i am too distrusting now- maybe a bit damaged here - and statistically i don't see it happening unless i go really beat the bushes - and i'm not that girl either. dreary- but trying to be realistic.

i keep telling myself nothing has changed. no matter if i see some hopeful sign or have a pleasant conversation- nothing has changed. i am still fighting it i guess- now that i say it out loud to you. well, i guess that is what db is about partially- not letting go too easily- but the bit about being detached while you are immersed in this battle is a bit beyond my belief. i am less "bleeding" than a year ago- i am by no means neutral. i can gal til the cows come home. my missing "life" still pains me.

what the hell????? I want definition & certainty - i want "out" with no pain or bother. i am totally unrealistic about this- the no pain thing - but i can say what i want rite?? i resent like mad that it hurts ME (us) so much- i am sick of caring what bad happened to him that made him this way. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HIS JUNK in life - he is a bad person to let it spill onto and hurt me. we all have free will- we all want justice for ourselves- we all deserve it - he deserves the pain he is dealing out- not me. SELF righteous central here - sorry- bad bad dog... i don't like "paying" for his crap life and emotions. still feeling like being in prison for some crime i didn't commit.

oh well- sos w/ me- maybe i'll never get further than this point. maybe i'll just burn out in the end- and fizzle away and be done with it all from sheer exhaustion. probably not a bad thing- maybe it's what finally makes anyone do something they think they "have to" but loath. i hope your mind and day are alot better than this dreary drivel.

i'm going to go get busy and do alot of wildly productive stuff to give myself a bit of self esteem (if i can't admire myself for enduring this crap-fest at the hands of this jerk) i can at least not be a wallowing grub-ball here. ta da

it's sunny and I do love autumn leaves. picked several bouquets last nite on our walk- put them here and there for color. i am going to go (for real) take pix of all the extra lamps, furniture, great junk i have around to send to my neice and see if she needs anything. maybe work on that stupid chair and get it out of my own face- either or-

this is me pulling myself up by my boot straps and getting on with it. had a nice evening last nite with my little neice (14) - she's good company- she's a compassionate kid - she was looking thru my highschool yearbook- i don't remember most of it and what people wrote becasue my dad had died the day before- i went to get the book and people signed it- but i was in a fog. i thnk i've blocked out most of that time and graduation, etc.- tooooooooo wierd and awful at the time. life sure is funny isn't it? the things you do, endure, function thru- etc.

will be interesting to see where i am five years from now. okay- lets make a pact that no matter what- five years from now in october we make sure to check back in here (in case we drift away somewhre) and see what the heck we are both up to. okay? it's a funny notion- maybe we will laugh together over this bad bad bad time in our lives- and compare notes on how we triumphed over evil - ta da.... super-hero-gals - . ya think?????

xx0

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i am not sure there is something worth allllllllll this. the pain, uncertainty

I KNOW - RIGHT! We knew (at least I do) that there was some sucky times that "another" would have been much more fun to be with. Hey, this isn't our first rodeo we know other guys and what they had to offer, good w/the bad. And, we chose these A-holes. My ex-bf is married in the riches suburb - CEO of his firm. Is this Gods way or did I not follow His way -made my on choice to live with now?

I think we miss what was-what we believe could have continued to be. Also, I think it's the whole not coming to grips with the unfathomable sitch to begin with, the why, the WTF! For me it's also the ea/ow the jealousy of his time and attention going to sh!t leaving me as a LBS lonely and pissed.

It's also the effort of now who, what, might I have to go through to not be alone. I read someone here wrote:
"people like to stick with the devil we know, every relationship is going to come with baggage''

I feel like at least this is mine I'm fighting for, not some one yr guy who's gone off. It's the longevity - you understand that better than I do!

I'm not better here this morning - I just woke up and am writing before all my thought muck up my brain

Soo wounded are we all! I'm not that girl either, never had to search.

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I DO NOT CARE ABOUT HIS JUNK in life - he is a bad person to let it spill onto and hurt me

Amen to that - last night my H said I'm the only one hurting from this, you know, BS, his HURT is what started all this in HIS junky life of poverty, LBS of a mother, depression, OCD, ect... I had some junk yea, but I grew up once I had a family!

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lets make a pact that no matter what- five years from now in october we make sure to check back in here

You got it! Honestly I wish I will say I am with a wonderful man who loves holidays, birthdays, rainy days, me unconditionally, my kids, he's loyal, faithful, interesting, smart, loves vacations, and most of all has eyes and heart for only me, because he choose me , and it makes God smile

You make a list - It doesn't have to be with or without him just what "you" want my friend! Hope for a good day for all! It's sunny here as well gonna go blow the yard.

"You got it! Honestly I wish I will say I am with a wonderful man who loves holidays, birthdays, rainy days, me unconditionally, my kids, he's loyal, faithful, interesting, smart, loves vacations, and most of all has eyes and heart for only me, because he choose me , and it makes God smile :)"

Hey, if you find a guy like this, see if he has a brother! Or maybe someone can just buy us a Ken doll for Christmas?

The sad thing is, my H was that guy. I am still holding on to hope deep inside that he'll be that man again someday

Hoping everyone here finds their happiness

[/quote]

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well my dear - i don't think i need to make a list- i'll just borrow yours if it's all the same to you. sounds like what i'd like to have in life also.

just returned from giant giant hate-fest at mom's. poor old thing- she honestly thinks she's has NEVER EVER said all her junk about my sister and her awful festival of gripes. GOD - i hope someone just chops my head off if i ever become like that. this business of life (what is left of it) being alllll about hate instead of remembering the good times- i hope i'm not like that.

now i'm thinking just this morning i said (to you) my h has destroyed all my happy memories. I'M CHANGING THAT to- has ruined them FOR NOW- I'M SURE at some point in time in my life i'll return to my normal self and not feel sorrow or bitter about him and residual fallout.

i need to remember to always always be vigilent and fight the urge to blame and hate. i see how awful it is- i wonder if inside, my mother even has a clue she's residing in the old hate-hotel or thinks she's happy. we can never ever make it thru any conversation lately without her spinning down the hate cindy road. which spins off into how much she thinks i LOOOOOVe her and make her feellike a queen(?) and protect and defend her(???) I never even have to say one word- honestly- she just makes up all this junk and heaps on the accusations til my head explodes and i respond. if she can get me screaming she's satisfied. maybe she just needs a giant reaction from someone and i'm the only one stupid enough to go around her??? GEEEEEZZZZZ- what a way to spend your last years.

anyway- i did some upholstery- it was going okay instead of the problem i had when i lfet it- so a good omen. i'm going to tidy this entire house and quit being down on myself for a messy housekeeper (oops - now whose JUDGEMENT would that be??? he may not be here- but his BLAME BLAME BLAME - is allover the place.

LOSE IT SUE - rite now- ala ka zam- ta da!!!!! i'm okay- you're okay- (rite?)

i'm outta here- act6ually getting stuff done- will return later when i take a break - in my sparkling clean tidy house

today- driving home from mom's for the very first time i considered actually thinking maybe i should just go ahead and sell out of this house and be done with every memory, every nook and cranny of my life that ever contained a momento or memory of h and run (*like the wind). just a thought- but didn't make me sad or shudder- starting to sound like a "maybe" course of action. God- did i just say that???

okay- onwrd & upward here - talked to my neice's baby just now- she wants to "come to my house" - i'd kill for a baby "fix" rite now. nothing but love- the way people should be!

(yyes , even when they're older than 3.5yrs!!!) in my land anyway-

get this- my mother called me about four hours after our "visit" from hell (scream fest) and apologized. i was/am speechless. she has never ever in 61 years been a person to acknowledge her part and say "sorry". i apologized too because i was ratty and thanked her for her apology. i have no idea what to think-

i don't even want to say it might be a hopeful sign. i am trying not to think in terms of hope anymore.

people sure can batter you around can't they? i can't believe i'm sayin cheezy stuff like not thinking "hope" anymore. i feel pretty scabbed over and not wanting to get anywhere near anyone anymore. lot of "any"s huh? can you say "raw"???

i'm outta here- hope your day went okay- now, another long lonely nite - oh mannnnnnnn........i know, don't think about it-

Dawnmarie or ANYONE OUT THERE have anything to say to me. i'm a bit freakie this very moment.???

I just got a call from out of state from h. I speculated he'd seen ow this past weekend. (he did) i didn't hear from him fri nite or sat - til sun evening. i didn't pick up phone. just couldn't.

so- phone ringing- i feel ratty & rude to ignore it. I picked up- but honestly, I kind of hate him when i know he's been w/ ow and he is totally indifferent to me. I said hi- couple neutral words about Obama from him - and I asked if he'd been "out of town" (code word for boinking ow) - he said yes sat - and i said sorry but really- I do not want talk to him. I just didn't want to share anything about my life with this man.

I feel so crappy and jittery (like adrenaline rush & nowhere to go) and awful- would love to cry if could get started. WHAT THE??? I very nicely said "sorry, but you know, i just do not want to talk to you when i realize you have been with someone else that you prefer to share your life with - I have nothing to share or say" and he very nicely said, "oh, okay- i'll call later and see if you feel like talking".

WHAT THE heck is this? i feel like throwing up and he's all nice and acting like i just said i was eating a hotdog - could he call back. i am at a loss. it's soo gross - his lack of emotion and acceptance. how little could i mean? am i crazy here? to think this man doesn't even attempt to engage me- convince me- ANYTHING AT ALL - GOD i feel like the biggest jerk in the universe to even still know him if i evoke soooo little emotion .

I know in the big picture he's paying the bills and he is remaining in my life and saying i should remain in his- remain in this house (we own 50-50) but if he is so devoid of passion or interest in me - I see no hope or future. i know he called to "chat" - BUT it makes me feel like a faithful old dog sitting in the kitchen waiting for master to come home - give me a scratch and then ignore me for the rest of the day.

SOOOO- I feel soooo guilty to have picked up the stupid phone- should i be chastising myself for not acting all (db) & cool and "i don't care a bit- i got a fun life without you?) " or is it "okay" - .

i agonize over this dbing and "doing the rite things". it just happened - i thought i was going to be all detached and cool - i wasn't emotional or shrill or an7ything - just soft and neutral and matter of fact. i cannot imagine how it cannot affect him at all- it is soooooo out of character for me. so here am i feeling like the end of the world- and he's not even present.

hellllpppp,.,,,,,, I am in some bad movie here....

anyone have any thoughts - -

Nero,

First of all, you just need to breathe.....................

This is not easy. We can't all do everything "right" all the time. We're human, we have emotions. This is not easy. Don't beat yourself up. It wasn't a great interaction yes, but we move forward.

Phone calls - If you know this is how most phone calls will go, it is in YOUR best interest to not answer. I sense that you feel that answering will somehow help to bring him back. If this is how the calls will go, then NO!!! Do not answer. Detach detach. He can leave a message. If it's important, you can call when YOU'RE ready to talk.

MLC Actions - They are crazy. That's it. Their brains are misfiring and their actions WILL MAKE NO SENSE. You will never understand because they don't either. DO NOT TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT! You will not. The only thing you can understand is that they are crazy. And despite the face of emotionless banter they display, they are often dying inside. We just don't often see that part.

And as for your conversations with him, you need to not talk about the R. Even about the OW. It's out there. It's known. If you don't want to talk to him because of her, then don't talk to him. But there is no need to TELL HIM THAT IS WHY. In doing that, you are only trying to manipulate him into feeling guilt. And when he doesn't it makes you feel worse. This [censored]. Totally. That's why you need to focus on YOU. Work on YOU. Find an outlet, a hobby, work on YOUR shortcomings. You don't need to ACT like you're having a fun life with out him. You have to HAVE a fun life without him. It's hard work. But it is possible. And it's the only way YOU will make it out of this with some sanity and self improvement.

*Hugs*

Nero,

sorry your day has begun so badly. I personally would be more than a "bit" freakie so maybe you're handling this better than you think.

The whole thing is a learning process for all involved. Give yourself time and allow yourself some mistakes. Do learn from your mistakes as best you can because the mistakes are painful and slow your healing.

Can you screen his calls? I know I would wonder if the call was something really important (maybe health related etc) and feel obliged to answer. If he leaves a chatty message, or no message at all, then you would know the call wasn't really important. Then YOU could decide to pick up or return his phone call IF you felt you WANTED TO.

Try to shrug this episode off as best you can. Just say to yourself, "Well, THAT was a mistake but I'll do better next time."

Hope the rest of your day is better.

Hey Nero, I understand the need to answer the phone. I think your still so gut wrench by all this your almost looking for a way out. Answering and saying exactly what's on your mind has been a long time coming for you.

Your frustration sounds like it brought you to the point. I was were you just can't stay bottle up. I think your approach was very honest and adult. What's wrong with coming out and saying exactly that - after all this time.

My coach said to be honest in a nice manor and set your boundary. She told me to say almost exactly what you said. Don't beat yourself up over it, he's not, he took it pretty well!

Now, work on if he calls you back!

We reach a point were we are so bottled up that we start to open our mouths expressing ourselves consequences be dambed. That's what I did a few week ago. Be very careful with this new stage your entering.

I laid it all on the line as was prepared for him to do whatever. I don't recommend that though, not at all for you. You said your peace.

Now, first of don't assume where he's been, why he's calling you, that he does't think anything of your pain. Don't think for him, your probably wrong and just hurting yourself.

Remember they don't show you their pain, but that's how all this got started,i t's about his crappy life. Your great pain is loving someone who's not there anymore, a shell of who he was to you.

I don't have words of wisdom just practice and I stink at all of this myself, but your the one in pain, because of his pain. His pain has nothing to do with you. He is reaching out to you for some reason - were not going to assume, but it's right there, he has been in a very little way reaching out to you recently.

Your not a good dog waiting. But, you have to decide do you want to be his "light house" for him to rely on and feel safe. If you have any hope for this R than you need to decide if your ready to do that for him, your represent home for him. Forget OW she's not the answer for any of this, and she's not home, he's showing you that much!

If not then that's ok too. I have "light house" shining bright but I never say that for the R or M, it's for the man to one day find his way.

He has not "let" you go he took himself out. In a backward crazy world it's a way to not leave the relationship. It's his way to find something out there (nowhere, somewhere) your never going to know.

When he calls back decide if you want to answer, but don't bring up the same conversation if you do. Keep it light, to the point and say I'm off so - good by!

If he ask to do what - vaguely say I'm working on my hobbies!

OR don't answer - but be prepaid, you got this!

hi and thanks for input. you are soooo rite. why in the world would i have thought i could act naturally and just chat? i thought i had more detachment than i did (i usually do). i hear what you are saying- and will do in future. .

it is very rare for a phone call to go that way. once i got there on phone - i paniked - and exchanged a few words & i realized i couldn't do it- i SHOULD HAVE just said the doorbell was ringing. i never thought of it - dopey me- i will put a little note or prompt note by the phones so i either remember don't go there- or possible outs if i do.

i do not think clearly in crunch situation. -

i don't think i will make this mistake again. you know- i didn't see it that way - trying to instill (guilt)

i do not feel confident he gets it that i cannot be just same ole , good ole ME - answer the phone when he feels like a chat (or check in )- just exist in this little box he's put me in and be there for him whenever he wants -

i wonder if he thinks i can and will accept the ow thing. . it changes me- i'm unable to be "normal" me. - it's not okay and never will be - I will not "get used to" - it will kill anything left - death by a thousand cuts. nothing more or less..

i wonder if he thinks because i don't resist- fight, bring it up, etc. (i swore i never would discuss it again - and have not for a long time) that it is somehow okay and he will have a life with her and me in it. honestly- i think he thinks he will always have everything he wants - me included - for as long as he wants. )

it's all pathetic . sometimes i'm pathetic ( in very private) - thanks

oh yeah- thanks for your honest input-

it is crazy- i will not mention it again ever to him - i should have ignored the call til i wanted to talk. (you';re rite) it was bad form - on my part!!

i am not havin any funn and this h and his junk [censored] the pleasure out of my life. i know- you'll say don't let it- i'm working on that- i hear it- you are also rite i need to try to stop "understanding". i was working on final tweak to my resume when he called- i'll get there- tnx for help along way\(( )) back

you are such an understanding and caring person. i hear you about the lighthouse. I decided to be the lighthouse a year ago- - i fall off my "high road" and forget and lose my way. i wish my spouse had your brain & heart. i would be in heaven.

i just felt like honesty was the best policy because i was just there- stuck. - i was calm and pleasant - i don't want to "spew" - i know he's heard everythng i could possibly say - good & bad. i have sworn off any conversations about r m , "it"-ow, you name it.

i feel "abnormal" sometimes and incredulous that he just goes along being the "same" and thinking i am. i feel like a different person - i feel like a fraud - maybe that is what makes me think i need to spell something out. he acts like it is all not there. to me- it is the ONLY thing there- . there is only one thing in life i want to hear from him (probably never will- but you know...) oh well-

this sitch is demanding i be fake - i get the strategy- i've never been good at having strategy and image and being what i'm not. maybe i can tell myself it's a "job" - we all are someone else at work. i'll try it. i'm a very good little doo bee at the office- bosses loved me.

thanks for "letting me off the hook" - i was honest and nice. maybe it could set a boundary - maybe he could know that me talking to him while he's with her or having "that life" is becoming something i cannot do or want to. whichever - does it matter? is that BAD - if he knows i cannot "be" in his life when she is - is that pressure and i'm pushing hinm or pursuing himn???? oh crap- more darn "strategy" intruding & nagging me.

he knows if he calls me on cellphone on a weekend i know it's because he's with her. so he doesn't do it - but then i know because he doesn't call. either way i know. he knows i know.

i didn't want to say "don't talk to me anymore unless you're in my face". but honestly- i have had it to death with phone calls & long distance r, etc. i know it is not the time in life to make any demands, etc. i will not go THERE - . JUST Between us tho- sick - to - death..

Quote:

Now, work on if he calls you back!

i have no idea - still cannot imagine what in the WORLD i have to say to him or could chit chat about. i don't even want to hear his voice- i don't want to know he exists - spontaneous amnesia would be okay.

i will not do or say anything commital or big- YOU ARE correct i am not at that place.

Quote:

Now, first of don't assume where he's been, why he's calling you, that he does't think anything of your pain. Don't think for him, your probably wrong and just hurting yourself.

you are so right- i do and i do. will try harder to remember pma & quit figuring- one of my biggest problem areas . trying to understand the un-understandable. I still try and figure out if my sister was the person i loved and grew up with- the woman she became or the alcoholic she was. i want to think she was the person i loved - bright- funny- smart- . i just don't know & can't figure it out. anyone

Quote:

He is reaching out to you for some reason - were not going to assume, but it's right there, he has been in a very little way reaching out to you recently.

ya really think so? is that what it is ? reaching out? i think it's merely checking to see if i'm still stupidly sitting here waiting for a bone. (how I feel i guess) i will never get this part- the taking a chance on losing me by blatently rubbing my face in ow and ea. his frank admissions & apparent non-concern over possible consequences

i wish i had your faith in the man. i do judge and figure too much. something soooooo AWFUL about knowing he is having fun with her at a very moment i am not having any fun- have nothing in particular to look foward to feel despairing a bit - - - - - - have been thru a year of total HELL. AND NO kidding about that- he seems oblivious.

i will endeavor to recapture my non-hostile detachnment (of a sort) of a day or so ago. weekends do me in. any evidence of ow in my face - sends me into a spin. . i hate this "being human" thing. wish i was a cold and inhuman fish - uh hem - like, you know who seems to be ...

kidding- i see it- me doing exactly wht i just said i would not do-

lots to do- forcing self to keep busy with a vengence. xxo thanks so much for response.

mrsrjd-

hi & thanks for note. you made me feel better- i would love to even think for a minute i was handling this better than anyone in the universe. thanks for sayin it..

i can screen them- and now i know i shouldn't even have picked up. i swear- i don't know what moves me to think more of myself and my control than it warrants. oh well- won't make that mistake for a long long time to come.

i'm going to make the rest of the day better. get busy- get out of the house- drop off this application & resume- finish cleaning upstairs so i'm living in tidy and pleasant place & SPACE. why in the world i only clean for company is beyond me- i need it to be nice for me. NOW - so typical of me- why WOULD i ever do for someone else what i won't take the time to do for me?

this long-term "disconnect" with this man (who was my main connection in life - in the universe- for soooo long) is soooo creepy & wearing. i'm going to go find an ibuprophen for my head- and neck crick- and finish sewing this cover for my stupif foot rest. one thing off the to do pile & better to look at every time i walk thru the living room.

xxo & thanks for sharing

Originally Posted By: nero

i do not feel confident he gets it -

i wonder if he thinks i can and will accept the ow thing.

i wonder if he thinks because i don't resist- fight, bring it up, etc.

i think he thinks he will always have everything he wants - me included - for as long as he wants. )

It's work. You know it's work. But look at what you're expending energy on. Wondering about his thinking. Sadly, it's absolutely pointless. He's on the crazy train and actions will make no sense. You will spin yourself into the ground trying to understand. Use your energy to work on what YOU are going to do. How are YOU going to live on? How are YOU going to change?

When my H was in the midst of crazy town, he'd literally hop off the plane from having seen OW (he didn't know I knew) and rush to meet me and D at our weekly sushi restaurant. I never understood why he did so. And even though I could ask him now, (and I've considered it), I still haven't. I think the reason I haven't is because he'd probably say he never remembered doing it and would have no idea why. Sometimes even being able to get the answers can be very unrewarding. So don't think about logic. There likely is none.

Originally Posted By: nero

it's all pathetic . sometimes i'm pathetic ( in very private) - thanks

We've all been there. We've all felt that way. Doing it in private is the only way. And then once we've had our pity party, we realize we have to dust ourselves off and keep moving forward.

hey-

i know what you are saying is rite- that he probably doesn't give one thought to what he's doing. logic and reason do not apply. i don't ask either- i do fritter away my time and energy trying to understand. i agree i do nothing but frustrate myself with that - i forget. i need to write myself a note saying stop thinking- NOW.

I DID FINally today rewrite the damn resume and fix the language a bit. they're just soooo much goop i think- but realize i need one. this one seems okay finally.

i've been dragging my feet - just can't sit still and make myself do it- but did. woo hoo

visited mom- peaceful - wow!! walked with buddy- chatted with an old friend for quite a bit- she's pretty funny and non-judgemental. has some whopper of stories bout her first husband- so it was good therapy and we laughed. i don't know any funny people these days- where did they all go? i miss laughing ALOT.

i guess an okay day for shakey start. thanks again- note is written - I DO "LLISTEN" WHEN I FIND my own notes - i do tend to screw myself into the ground when i get going down that road.

goodnite

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2277726#Post2277726

i think i am posting my old (2nd) thread here- hopefully i followed directions rite and - ta da...

so, am i the only one who is rather more "delicate" first thing in the morning????? it drives me nuts=- once i get going i'm okay and even evenings are not as "grusome". i can't figure it out- i hate feeling droopy- it's so not me - it's so jerky..... i can't figure what the heck to do exactly to snap myself out of this bad "routine" if that's what it is. i DO need the coffee - badly - to get myself "up". i'm totally in hunker =- down and watch the budget mode- or i'd think i should go to mcdonalds or somewhere for coffee would be good.

so - now that i say it- when my sister isn't working early- i can go there for coffee- get dressed and get out (til i have some kind of work to go to) - well, anyone who has a brilliant idea for making yourself feel chipper the minute you jump out of bed- i'll be glad to hear it. maybe i'll put coffee in a covered cup and walk it off - will try that tomorrow failing anything else.

is fresh air the answer to anything???.

You have you own great idea's don't sell yourself short. Walking first thing in the morning while the weather permits is best. Coffee...heck yea! That's my best friend...I wish I could drink it all day.

You do sound better...baby steps!

you know-

other day when you said watchout- i was in some wierd place and shouldn't make any sudden moves - boy, are you ever right.

i'm sitting here this moment- screaming and yelling out loud to no one - this h makes me soooooo damn offended i could kill him. i mean it- he wrote an e-mail about his plans to return here. he's going to visit an old college buddy- then flying back there for a day or two before he comes here. all cool & matter of fact - yeah, i get it - the ONLY thing in the f/ing universe that matters in life is his damn happiness and his _ _ _ _ and HIM. WHAT A PIG - i could kill him because he is such a smug - self interested giant giant GIANT as_ AND I mean it.

I sit here - life on hold - waiting for what??? his big stupid self to have some kind of awakening (which may never come) and - that big f just rolls along doing whatever the heck he pleases- LIED TO KEEP me in this stinking life and here's me bored to tears & pissed on a daily basis. God only knows what would happen if something interesting did come along in my life - fingers crossed. .

i consider the immense satisfaction if i went mlc and walked out of his life. i have no idea if he'd care or not- my EGO DEMANDS I THINK HE'd cry him a river at some point - some day. he's such a big fat ego hard guy- maybe he'd never ever let himself even miss me. i am telling you and the universe- he will not EVER find another gal like me (even with the flaws) i hope his head falls off and rolls under a car - splat. idiot.....

my finger twitches at the thought of dialing the phone and telling him to drop the hell dead and get out of my life.

sorry- i find him soooo offensive- i could just scream.

what a jerk he is. - after i write this to you- i'm going to go walk over and get a lottery ticket- to make myself laugh at the absurdity- but who knows rite? there is that one in a baziollion jillion million chance i win. now - what would i do besides dis - a - f'ing - pear???? we wonder. i still consider it .

i almost did when we were in new england- if i'd had my purse or credit card- i was thinking of just not returning to hotel from my morning walk- wouldn't he be surprised and amazed if i just went awol??? he could just drive home alone and wonder where the hell i got to? . it didn't occur to me til i was out of room- no purse, etc. it was a good feeling & thought tho. he doesn't realize the breadth & depth of my spontinaity. good i say- maybe i'll be amazing and surprising sometime yet and he's soooooo sure ofme he will never ever see it coming. i know- gross isn't it- this desire for revenge? who me? better than what??? not so much huh/.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Sue, you are such a heartfelt person that's why this is so hard for you. I know we feel way too much for these asses but it is who we are. You are loving someone who can't be who he was right now. Remember your feeling like this because your such a loving person, you deserve better, we all do.

please try to read this link. You are just behind me going through some of your own stages. It is important to start learning about you and what your going though and are about to face down the road. Read up on LBS's, read and write about you now, it's time for you, try to release your grip on him (in your mind) a little bit at a time.

Talking to you like this is helping me try to do the same. Read this below it's good. Then follow the link and read the stories, at best it will calm you down. Take care of you - deary!

Quote: The life's lessons you are to learn out of this are simple ones, but HARD to put into actions

They involve Control Lessons first and foremost.

The rule of thumb to remember is the only person you can control in this life is YOU, not anyone else-and change must begin within before a situation changes without.

That means ALL control you THINK you have must be released: physical, spiritual-everything.

The MLC'er, no matter how erratic he/she is acting, is NOT a child, and does NOT need help-they must be allowed to work this out on their own and make decisions accordingly.

I know you think you are helping if you try to show them what you perceive they are doing wrong, but they will see it as CONTROL, and run further away.

You have to learn to separate the behavior from the person, and set boundaries as to what you will and won't accept, taking care of YOU in the process.

Focusing on what the MLC'er is or is not doing is NOT helping YOU-it is only dragging you down further and further, and you WILL hit rock-bottom and have a nervous breakdown, worrying about things you CANNOT and DO NOT have control over.

You must learn, also to STAY CALM in conflict-the more emotional power you give a situation, the worse it can escalate. Tap into the inner strength you KNOW is there and use it to your advantage.

You must face Childhood Wounds and heal them, whatever those may be, and they will be found on your journey to find YOU. That means exploring your childhood, looking at the patterns YOU are repeating-and change your behavior accordingly-that is part of your growth.

Remember no one does anything to YOU-they do it to THEMSELVES, as this has NOTHING to do with you, and everything to do with THEM.

IF you don't like a situation, CHANGE IT-taking the steps necessary to do so. Each individual is different and it may take a combination of things to achieve this change.

Learn that happiness, self-validation, self-esteem etc comes from WITHIN you, and is NOT found in outside factors-NO ONE can make you "complete". You must learn to find these things WITHIN.

Then, and only then will True Love be born-you will need because you love, not love because you need.

Accepting yourself is extremely important as we must live with ourselves for the rest of our lives, and we know deep within our hearts what we can and cannot live with.

We must "let go" no matter how painful that might be, it is through the giving of this freedom, we may regain our MLC spouse. Because we will NEVER own anyone, but OURSELVES.

That inner peace we are searching for CAN be attained through the "letting go" totally-it is the peace we can have WITHIN the storm.

And until we reach that point, we will always be confused-it is through the clearing of our mind that the answers will come from the place they have always been--within ourselves.

There are NO answers to be found outside of us, otherwise.

We can and must trust ourselves to do the right thing at all times, trusting in the Lord to guide our feet along this journey.

And understand that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, we WILL be all right.

I hope you read this - just checking on you

Hey sweet lady - here is another one that helps me

quote: My thoughts on the LBS stages;

Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?

Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!

Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.

Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.

Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.

Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.

Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.

Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.

Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.

Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.

Hi-

i read the link and above. it's ALOT of stuff to mull over. i can see there are stages- i also see i'm probably at the resentment stage you describe (loosely construed) where it simmers in and out. and i'm okay alot of the time then spin off out of control (emotionally -privately).

I do see - i do (kind of agree) with everyone and their individual input. it's such a personal thing- this voyage. All the elements are there for everyone in different amounts & intensities.

i am ocd about defining things if i can- my comfort zone. naming the enemy- giving it a face. i can then formulate a plan (something like that)

I don't find myself asking "why" anymore- so that must be something. i noticed it when someone in the link was saying the "whys" end. I wonder sometimes if it is because we've gotten into some routine that still has each other in our lives and no one has run out the door. that DOES NOT mean one darn thing tho. does and doesn't give any security as to "future".

my impulse answer is true love- it's boring as hell but deeeeeep. (we have it- whether he knows it - or will ever acknowledge something like that (he's got(and ALWAYS HAD) an enormous case about the word, use, meaning & the existence of love ) i still may end up chucked out the window- i fear i always will believe in love) wah wah i fear he never will- sad for him.

my thoughtful answer may be that (in this crappy sitch) we've got a habit/addiction - either to each other- the old "security" , whatever. something more superficial and maybe more "real". we both may be kidding ourselves - me by thinking he is mlc- him thinking i'll "swallow" it all (forever???) he is nutty enough to think it- we're both incredibly stubborn...

My own addiction to self improvement & knowing (me)& what's going on with me & my life - my lifetime of "working" on me- an obsession really. (i don't know if good to think i'm not perfect or beyond flaws & contribution to problems ) or bad - selfish? ) maybe i'd say if i have a giant neurosis it's this thing of (never having) but WANTING some certainty & security. human condition huh? looking for "ground under our feet" in an uncertain world. I can either crucify myself or be philosophical - like everything else it comes down to this: i've felt it A MILLION TIMES. EVERY SINGLE THING IS EITHER INCREDIBLY SIMPLE OR INCREDIBLY COMPLEX- AND doesn't really MATTER which. "answer" equally hard to come by. i'm probably buddhist btw - i do think we're all one and everyone wants to be happy - and should be. i think sometimes we're all the very same entity - possibly-

I know but do not like knowing that i am the only guy i can be sure of in life. Even my "best" sister became an adult that was changeable- who ever "knows" who is the REAL person inside? the one they were - or became - or immersed in their own addictions? i struggle with that one - would the real _______ please stand up. it seems important to KNOW - it may be unknowable.

i feel compelled to try and help- to fix, make happy- try to understand, bekind, etc.

oh yeah- my other addiction- TOOO F'ING ANALYTICAL in life about people - relationships, etc. I NEED TO SHUT UP THIS BRAIN......

i'd say my dad dying when i was 18 and the reality that someone as big and safe as your dad could die (THE GUY that took care of us all) - well- you can see where that goes. I would not say it ever disabled me- i go around being all tough and "i can either do this or endure it" - i know it's there tho- the knowledge

IN MY R - my take would be we each mean too much to the other to just disappear or want to- HOWEVER - it could be merely habit. i know for me- i cannot say if i'd run rite out if i met someone else satisfactory... who knows til at that point. i cannot imagine it - yet after this dump-on-me-fest - it sounds mighty nice to be liked for yourself instead of reverse - who knows??

? . He has this ow thing going on- which he's prepared to throw over his whole life with me for- what does that mean? YET - he has not walked out - he certainly could have at any point in last ten or whatever years he's been "unhappy". HE HOLDS ALLLL THE CARDS - well, legally & financially. of course emotionally i can take myself out of the picture at time too- now that i know "what it really is" - but what the heck is it - really???

i even wonder - at the end of the day- if the mlc thing is real or a convenient fabrication (lable) for us all. when i read the description- a litebulb went on over my head. i could be wrong tho and it could merely be cheating for fun and because i've made it sooooo very easy for him to do.

i can't even analyze our r any more. i can see things about both of us good and bad- i can't care about it anymore and can also see that i'm working on me more . LETTING GO of a heck of alot of crappola there.

PARTIAL problem with progress is that i decided much like Mach1 that i would "shut up and give this a try" for an undertermined but limited time" and see what was what. loosely- "til i had something better going on" to be "going to". whatever that might be.

at the very beginning a friend who went thru something similar but stayed with h - said her 3-times divorced lawyer (woman) said to her "don't be too anxious to rush out the door. look at the familiarity & "security?" (even with problems) of life you're in and what is "out there". You may be rushing right out to nothing at all . "THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY YOU ARE RUSHING TO - BEFORE YOU DO IT" it stuck in my head big time.

so me huh? hopelessly prudent - whether i should be or not - who knows???

i'm getting "lost" here.

grief & disbelief were my overriding
initial responses (phases). honestly- i am amazed i survived the sheeer pain & mental "fog". yay me...

some months later i made the decision to give db "a try" - because quite frankly the why why why, how could he , how could he- should i leave, should i stay- was all driving me nuts.

i had not yet accepted - but i was willing to set aside a bit of the judging the insanity & injustice a bit to just stop that constant internal dialog. it's better- not all gone. made a sign this morning saying "stop thinking" to remind myself sometimes to just quit it if i get going there.

sometimes i blame us both-

i have an addiction i need to conquer. as i see it. everything in the universe aside- i turned a blind eye to this guy's quirkie selfishness becasue it wasn't directed at me. i misread & reconfigured to suit myself & my little world. i see the "sham" - . i was very happy to be the object of his ocd. now i'm not- i'm not too happy about it. it felt very nice- do i accept a bit of it only? am i thinking i'm holding out for something that will never come again??? is this in fact mlc? or am i still deluding myself and it's OVER totally. anyone's call.

since he is still here (despite how much I'VE made him "unhappy"(????)and how unfettered he's always kept himself legally ) and i'm still here in spite of how much i wonder if he's worth it or not- mlc or not- just a stupid cheating jerk or a nice guy going thru "something" - - i assume we have some unfathomable "something" linking us -

SOOOO- REAL ISSUE IS - AM I CRAZY OR NOT??? who knows? all the people i know that are truly certifiable - as in, by the mental health authorities - don't know it. ta da.....

i can forgive myself for being all of the above- i think we're all just human and want the same things. none of us perfect. I did try my best (even if i see my limits and shortcomings - my heart loved unstintingly). i still believe in love and that counts for something (alot? - all?)

if he cannot give me the benefit of the doubt in judging me- then we are doomed and it's his problem if he cannot value (if it's the only thing here in question) a essentially good person who might have loved him soo unqualifiedly. to me- it seems like a very good thing. to him perhaps it is soul-sucking (my words) undesireable. difference in people.. - he's entitled to his feelings too.

immersed in simultaneous phone w/sister over my mom's misplaced trust ($$$) in my older sister- need to blow- sorry for dis-jointed & long "rant"??
xxo

don't be too anxious to rush out the door. look at the familiarity & "security?" (even with problems) of life you're in and what is "out there". You may be rushing right out to nothing at all .

I agree, my mom divorced my dad the next day after she thought of it. Divorced, they worked out their issues, remarried. Years later she was done again, divorced, 3yrs later, together again.

It's so stupid to discard people you love so fast. Some sitch really warrant a separation...but if it was ever good (great) in the first place it deserves the respect of time. That's my justification - time to work, grow, maybe even heal.

It's the not knowing when to stop beating a dead horse. But, I am a true believer that when it's dead, we will know it, it's just making sure we can except it. Until then we are ridding the coaster!

i turned a blind eye to this guy's quirkie selfishness becasue it wasn't directed at me. i misread & reconfigured to suit myself & my little world.

Me too! A real nerd my guy, kinda a geek, smart, quirky, unconventional, a little dungens and dragons fan in there. But, it was enduring, love shot my way, accommodating, fitting for me as I am a little eclectic myself.

There was selfishness also but I'm kinda a cool girl who pulls her hair up and either hangs with the guy stuff or goes off on my own. He was always right were I left him when I got back. Reliable, constant, loyal!

It's that stuff he took away from me (Reliable, constant, loyal) that is so gut wrenchingly painful. He was better than my parents growing up, all I thought a family should be.

Do we think that stuff we miss in still in there? It is what we want-right? Do we think it's there for ow-it's not! That is a whole other sitch of pain and hurt their going throw. She doesn't have your H as you know him, not at all.

i have to reread this post- you made some great declarations here. good rant-thanks!

Quote:

It's so stupid to discard people you love so fast. Some sitch really warrant a separation...but if it was ever good (great) in the first place it deserves the respect of time. That's my justification - time to work, grow, maybe even heal.

wow- it is a big insight to your own perseverence and patience. i'm learning a lesson from you (have alot really) - you have lived it- i've just been looking around. i feel like you in this respect- i know i rant allover town- then i feel like you do. i hope i can hang in there and hold it together. i always thought i had some fortitude & control- this is definitely testing me to the max.

Quote:

It's the not knowing when to stop beating a dead horse.

you cracked me up with this- i'm thinking we'll notice by the smell and it will be unbearable . like anything well & truly dead, dead , dead. (fingers crossed)

you know- me too - with the quirky guy that seemed to be such a good fit for me. i guess if we felt it- it was there. where the heck that guy got to - who knows??? is he still in there - you know, who knows??? is he worth looking/waiting for? i guess you and i think so or we wouldn't be here.

you are too kind to just NOT say - whew - get a stinking grip woman. i wondered after i posted - my sister was making my head explode with her long story . i should not have picked up the phone. when will i learn? we wonder.

anyway- thank you and i'm going to go apply for these stupid finger prints, etc. or die. have a wonderful day.

i think we will know!!?? my brain says don't get your hopes up- my heart says who knows? anything is possible (and i always secretly think if one loved enough things would come rite.) now you know what a secret nutball i am. i could be crazy- very probably am- who knows??? and i forgot the darn lottery ticket last nite!!!oiy.

someone told me winners are usually purchased on thursdays! can you imagine... now i've made myself laugh- well, that and my possible stinking dead horse.... get up you varmit- get up , get up and run...pooooor old dobbin

FWIW...
-One vet wrote here that when you don't ask yourself if you are done, then you are.

-Since there is a horse theme here today...after my W (yes, mlc is not just for men anymore...lol) started opening up about what she is feeling/thinking/processing/etc as she is peeking out of the tunnel, I ask..."they shoot horses, don't they?"

The mlc'er looks like they are living large, but underneath the facade is a giant ball of pain and fear...I would NOT trade places with W for a winning lottery ticket....I try to remind myself of that when I get down and impatient...helps the compassion and all.

T^2

TSquared2- thank you for this post. I finally laughed at something during all this. Still LMAO

I like the vet quote-will add it to all my "all new things learned".

I understand that it is all H's pain - but I can "feel" my pain.

I am keeping the compassion alive through it all though!

Stay tuned...

i don't know guys - my compassion for this man is on "hold". i am not so sure in my case he is feeling anything other than _"woo hoo- i'm "having it all" and that jerk is still hanging on" "whatta fun-boy am i?""" this man- that has said I "think there is more to him than i see- but really there's less" - may have been telling the truth. i heard that- i didn't know he wsa actually commenting on his mental and emotional capabilities- but you know- i think about it now and i'm thinking he was just being honest. too much of a stinkin "chicken" to say- listen up- this is serious and i need to talk to you (which would have meant ttreating me like an (God forbid) equal or something-

BUT- i'm thinking tonite (without anger- rancour or anything else) that maybe he was being honest. maybe there isn't much there - underneath - and perhaps he is perfectly happy. i hear you gys all so sure that your spouse is feeling "pain". i'm not ratty- i'm just not convinced.

i think he actually thinks he is a young man again- doing whatever he feels like doing- having it all - me, the rock (if you will) and everything and everyone else. just my gut.

i do not ever see any pain or remorse or quandry. oblivion is more like it. sorry to report- i am a compassionate guy- i am a guy that can hear if someone is telling me something heartfelt- i'm not feeling it. i'm looking and would LOVE to believe there's more to this than just be being a giant pos and expendible - but maybe not.

sorry to be discouraging here- i just don't know. you know?

someone needs to shoot this horse -

you guys know the pitiful part of this all? i keep thinking that deep inside the only reason someone would db is their conviction that the other person is worthwhile and worthy of the pain they're being dealt. SO the KEY THING IS to detach- but if you did (totally) you'd walk and not be here participating. know what i mean? doing it at all - does not indicate total detachment. if you were- you wouldn't be.

oh well- just saw a tv news item about a guy that was a disabled veteran. i feel ashamed to let my little troubles get me so down sometimes- i'm good comparitively speaking. me- bucking up.

i think he actually thinks he is a young man again- doing whatever he feels like doing- having it all.

Yes, he does, exactly. that's the Mid-Life-Crisis they can't handle being middle age and facing the later part of life. So they fool themselves, flip!

today my h said his muscles are weaker, what can he do - then he said I'll just pretend to be young in my head. Stupid answer but he will convince himself - lie to himself - whatever it takes.

Stay focused your not in a MLC- your the rational one. Stop analyzing him -he's crazy, lost, gone, and not your H. Sorry, but I'm telling myself this as well. NONE of this is about you/me or against us as well. He/they are not happy.

He calls you, hes says don't leave his life, take it for what it's worth and read nothing else into it. He is not happy - he is lost, mixed up - and you are his casualty because you love him.

sorry but here we all stand going through this - some of us will heal others will move on- regardless you have to come out of this smarter, stronger and happy to face your next r with h, or new things ahead.

your are stubborn girly please stop beating yourself up - there's lots of care and attention here - just keep reading and writing - you/I will get through this!!!!!

oooxxx DM

you are soo nice and encouraging.

i can be such a giant whining jerk-

Quote:

regardless you have to come out of this smarter, stronger and happy to face your next r with h, or new things ahead.

i sure hope you're rite that we alllll survive this with all our marbles. I really do not like this me , who can't see anything in the future - and can't be fond of the past and is just putzing along in the present with nothin . i hate being lonely - even as i'm saying it i have to admit i've been awfully lucky in life so far- but boy - oh - boy- has my luck run out lately with this junk. i resent feeling sucked down by this all. i resent letting myself- i do not listen to me very well. this is not who i am-

yeah- i know, how the hell many times can i say the same darn thing- i am one giant broken record here.

let me think-

Quote:

Stay focused your not in a MLC- your the rational one. Stop analyzing him -he's crazy, lost, gone, and not your H. Sorry, but I'm telling myself this as well. NONE of this is about you/me or against us as well. He/they are not happy.

i hope you are rite and i am rational. i don't feel like it alot of the time. i feel really unusual and at a loss. so- you really feel it's true that it's not about us? and not against us?

i have to say- i still get flashbacks to all the criticism , and unfair picking and fights due to his unhappiness and the fact that he was blaming me TOTALLY for EVERYTHING - oh yeah- i guess he did throw in he was unhappy for a long time. (after bomb only tho- like, why wait til then??? why not get it out along the way- men- i'm glad i'm a woman I may talk too much- but i'd rather say it and TRY to help myself - instead of the alternative. i guess i let my opinion of him get in the way of my compassion- sorry ...

i did laugh like mad today becasue an old highschool aquaintence called - we got talking about our mothers. she was killing me- and i realized since linda died i've been really sucking air for people who like to laugh and have a good sense of humour. there aren't too many around- i miss it alot. anyway- we got trading mom stories- made me laugh for about a half hour straight. i felt alot better after that. it's magical- isn't it? laughter. i have a "caregiver" book- it tells you to even make yourself laugh- even faking a laugh will give you a boost- wierd thought- but i'm trying. i need more laughter in my life - really.

plodded thru the stupid old state of nj education dept. form for getting fingerprinted on line- what a nightmare - oh man- about two hours - then i forgot to print a copy anyway. i am such a computer-dork when it comes to forms & searching. i just don't have that much patience. finished in the end (geeeez) - i hope this is funny (at the very least) the kids and substituting. i'm figuring kids have to be alot more entertaining that adults.

the adults in my life are sooooo ponderous all of a sudden- i'm croaking for some laughs. this gal is coming over tomorrow- maybe we can laugh it up some more. therapy for me please.

fri have another friend to visit- she's okay- not too funny- but nice and she's got some other friend that's looking for victorian christmas ornaments- she thinks perhaps i can create some for her. she is ALWAYS trying to get people together who want something- got something. she's a manager-type. her mission in life is to find people who suck me into makng things for them. sometimes it's interesting or fun- sometimes not. i have trouble saying no- did you ever notice that about me???

okay- you can be off this hook- thanks for insights & support- i read other people's stuff - or articles, etc. but sometimes it's hard to hear or read - or the truth hurts and i dont want to- it makes me feel really sad and hopeless - so i run away. maybe i'll be ready to read more later - don't know why- just what it is.

seeya tomorrow-(( ))

Nero,

I totally get what you're saying. We all reach these points. MLC is painful, frustrating, confusing and devastating.

Originally Posted By: nero

BUT- i'm thinking tonite (without anger- rancour or anything else) that maybe he was being honest. maybe there isn't much there - underneath - and perhaps he is perfectly happy. i hear you gys all so sure that your spouse is feeling "pain". i'm not ratty- i'm just not convinced.

Nero, believe none of what they say and 50% of what they do. Repeat this. Repeat this. Repeat this. And when you're done. Repeat it again. And again....

When my H was in crazy town, he would tell me about his freedom. How he could (as a contract programmer), work at beachside restaurants. How he had friends who would let him use a beachside condo, etc etc. I'd see him go on trips with OW while I stayed at home mowing the lawn, watching D, paying bills, taking out the trash, etc. But every so often, I'd catch glimpses of the sick H. He seemed unwell. He talked the talk, but he was losing weight, dressing badly etc. Only now do I know that he would spend entire days in bed curled up in the fetal position. Only now do I know that he'd have panic attacks anytime he'd try to make a decision regarding our R.

Originally Posted By: nero

i do not ever see any pain or remorse or quandry. oblivion is more like it. sorry to report- i am a compassionate guy- i am a guy that can hear if someone is telling me something heartfelt- i'm not feeling it. i'm looking and would LOVE to believe there's more to this than just be being a giant pos and expendible - but maybe not.

You're not seeing it because it is not there. When they are in crazy town, they are in crazy town. They don't really know WHAT they hell they're doing. They don't feel remorse. They also don't feel content. They don't feel secure. They don't feel happy. They don't feel calm etc. BUT. They ACT like they know what they are doing. This is the point where I ask you to go back to the beginning of this comment and repeat my first point again and again.

Bottom line is, you need to turn the focus on you. Let's make YOU better. You're right. Sometimes, once the LBS detaches long enough and grows and learns, they end up not wanting to salvage the relationship in the end. One word of reminder though. Detach does NOT mean stop caring. It means being able to deal with the wacky emotional barrage that can come from the MLCer without it affecting YOUR emotions. It's tough. There are no guarantees. But as long as you are better and wiser in the end, it will be OK. *hugs*

Really great points made for all of us!

thank you!

Quote:

This is the point where I ask you to go back to the beginning of this comment and repeat my first point again and again.

oh okay- i'm reading along- and i did in fact go back and repeat it to myself. it's like miracle on 34th street with old natalie wood sitting there saying "I believe" - "I believe. "

even made myself laugh and i can use it this morning. I WROTE IT DOWN on a stickie on my desktop here - so i see it frequently all day and will repeat after you.....

I can only pray & hope i am better in the end. i hope you are rite we all make it thru and are improved for it. i know that is the conventional wisdom. i don't mean to be dreary- i merely find myself confronting things i never really thought i'd find in my life (uh hem- that i'm an episode of jerry springer.... yikes!!) and it does make me wonder. i do think the best of people and myself usually- but i've ended up in what feels like hot water here- so MAYBE i've been on some wrong trail. usualy i pooh pooh this and stick with - " hey, i am who i am and i'm okay". just sometimes tho... now or then, i wonder if it's me - not "them". know what i mean? nothing terminal- just seeds of doubt creep in. i am only human anyway. (unfortunately)

i have no idea how this all plays out and what it does to a person. so far - i feel both bad and glad to notice that i care still- it makes it hurt- it lets me know maybe i should still be trying to do this.

. if i don't initiate a conversation about all this crap and hear his point of view (bad stuff about myself) it doesn't get said. for better or worse- i've decided and hope to stick with the plan to not go there. like snooping and finding out more stuff that rips my heart out- i'm trying to not confront that information. what i know now is enough to have me where i am - conflicted and (half the time only now) miserable.

I have some truly huge and drastic family stuff going on at the moment - of course rite??? we are trying to (but failing) put the fun back in dysfunction. it's sad - and ridiculous all at the same time.

anyway- thanks for contact from "the world" out there- this darn forum is really a link to like minded people and that is invaluable in this kind of a thing.

now, to go buy that darn lottery ticket- just typing it makes me laugh - so that's worth someting rite?

so- short version. is it just okay to "not go there" as far as talking about r, talking about his feelings or mine-

i'm assuming that's the db spiel - rite? leave it lay, act like it's not there- get on with my (acting like) usual life, etc.

i get off on too many tangents in these posts i know- when i'm alone- things take on a different slant than when he's here. i can see i'm "worse" -

sadly- i still apparently see him as a vital part of my life/happiness - oh cripes....... oh yeah- repeat after me..

nero-once you start the "acting as if" you would be surprised how much you yourself start to feel it.

My h said there's a lot of jealousy in him (people like him) because they don't have it together. So they go seek it else where only to be disappointed.

when he comes home have things to do, people to visit. He will be curious it will get his attention. the more you show him your "ok" the more he will see. Be secure, make your home cozy, safe, and inviting.

Cook, let him know your about to sit and he's welcome to join "you". If he doesn't he still gets the point your making. Understand, he's not having a great time, he very well may miss his life with you.

Yes, he is having another life, but I read so many times not to assume it's the one he sought, there may be a point were he comes home (many times) to you to confirm "this" is his life right under his nose the whole time.

Be the one he want's to come home to, the one he thinks about when he's not there, one day you may over shadow his thoughts of ow and the balance begins.

It sounds like it's all on us, and it is - for now, but were the ones who know better and still want it to work out. at the very least if it's all over for you guys you want to be on friendly terms as you do share a house and he doesn't have to be a good guy about it.

back to the positive - he said don't leave - be the safe house - the light house! be the women he would be crazy to get out of his life - and it's good for you too to be that great!

ps. my h didn't eat with me for months but somehow the food was always gone!

i believe & "feel" what you say.

i am on that page too- but frequently second-guess myself. years of trying hard to see both sides - and not just sit back and assume i'm mrs right alllll the time (like him, like my mom, like everyone almost i know it seems- very smug and very self-involved and self righteous and "deserving") ??? what the???.

i often wonder how these people (just average people - i don't even think sometimes as , well, "lucid" as me) get to be soooo sure they are the bottom line authority on everything in the world.

we're all humans - we're all the same at the end of the day. take away our air for 5 minutes and we're all dead. how the heck they get to be all "entitled" i do not understand. (sometimes i'm jealous that i can't feel that- absolute righteousness and certainty that i'm right and should "have it all") (stinking h by the way- he thinks he can hve itall) couldja die???.....

i'm pretty much "grateful" in life - when somethings come my way. my life has been good and "lucky" despite the bad bad times. i forget i've had them on a daily bsis , they go and i don't see them as the defining things in my life. everyone i know wears their "bad times" like this giant golden badge of honor and hammer away adn away about how bad they had it- AND WHO THEY BLAME. (I Love this part). that they feel they get to just dump it on someone else???

it doesn't matter does it? it just doesn't matter how we all got here- we're here- suck it up0- try something to fix it now-

THIS TREE OUTSIDE MY WINDOW - A CRAPE MYRTLE OF ALL THINGS_ IS SOOOOOOO GOLDEN AND WONDERFUL- I CAN'T TAKE MY EYES OFF THE WINDOW.

I'M GOING OUT TO PICK LEAVES AND IRON THEM IN WAX TO PRESERVE. THEY'RE TOO BEAUTIFUL TO IGNOR- SUCKNG ME OUT THE DOOR TODAY TO THAT WONDERFUL GOLDEN WORLD OUT THERE NAD THE HELL WITH THIS ALL- THEM ALL - EVERYTHING.....

TA DA- ME BUSTING LOOSE - WHO KNWOS, MAYBE I'LL ROLL IN THE DARN THINGS!! like when we were kids- i do feel myself having the urge to lay in them - they're so colorful and wondrful -

i'm soooooooo EASY TO PLEASE - I'D SAY one of my BEST qualities in life- give me some pretty buttons or leaves -

heaven.

(( )) xxoo

I'm glad your busting lose. I'm in my car right now after having just flirted in home Depot it was so much fun. See I have some Caulk stuck on my hands, but I froze when the man said, yea you wouldn't want your h to feel your rough hands. Ah, that's right, I'm married! Hell, it's been so long since I have been treated like a wife!

Hey hi-

flirting is good - good on ya mate (me being australian).

had busy day here- five different activities and about 8 phone messages- got popular all of a sudden.

AM wondering if i should go to flea mkt to sell stuff (it's fun and of course, get rid of more stuff please)pr not now - in light of fact that the news and township is telling us we're going to get our butts blown off mon & tues by these three storms that are supposed to meet up over my head here in nj.

no kidding- got home and town had left a message saying , among other things, expect no power for two to three weeks!!! what the??

i sure hope they are wrong-

i was talking to h - he's telling me not to worry- what is there to say other than i'll do what i have to - and be fine. i'm sure it's waaaaaaay more important for him to be down there in case his father wants a foot rub - - than here with me getting ready to get blown to kingdom come by a hurricane, nor'easter & some giant cold storm from the west.

why honey chile - don't worry bout little ole me . i mean really- just as long as he's "havin more fun" down there - than being with me during armageddon. whattagoober

what the heck? does he think i don't notice he's never around when stuff is goin on?

i'm not afraid- i only worry about my shingles on roof (couple slates are cracked i thnk and roof guy has not come yet - and sometimes the basement wall leaks if downspouts get wonky. been there before by my self - men- we don't need no stinkin men... aint i a tough guy?

anyway- very drqmatic stuff here- they are nuts to make people sooooo afraid. i'm just makin ice and charging the phone and have some cash around somewhere and i guess that's it. will eat cans of greenbeans off pantry shelf- like, rally- you'd think we were on some remote third world island or something. .

tho- mind you- the hurricane that didn't hit us in fla one time and we were without power two weeks- it sucked. the sound of generators was enough to deafen ya- and my plan here is if it gets bad in any way- go glom onto a friend and be done with it. ta da.

BUT- i will have plenty of ice!!! now, shall i freeze my milk? or what???

oh yeah- candles. that's about it for me- i think a glass of wine - and maybe no body will want to shop tomorrow if everyone is scared and "battoning down their hatches".

have a nice nite- i think mine won't be bad. mood okay and holding today for some wierd reason. fingers crossed- maybe i've crossed some kind of line and am magically cured- ya think? (kidding) i'll take one good day and evening- tomorrow's another one SCARLETT.

XXO

OMG! Your right I just looked up your weather. They are going to evacuate Southern State Prison, wow it's looking scary. What about your mom? You need to make sure you have more than green bean, lol!

Make sure you have bottle water, lots of it, and it's a great time to stock up on cookies, you gotta have some fun! I hope your prepared and it's not nearly as bad as they say. I will keep watch of the news if you don't post.

Well, funny I was guessing you were either English or Irish, Australian very cool. And, yes flirting was fun. Came home to h saw him depressed and thought hum, there are more were you come from. I don't know what I want anymore, I will fight the good fight, but something new is very attractive to me.

I'm bored by this, him, his blah blah. This could go on record as one of those wives that was bored to the point of leaving.

I am able to not care right now about what he's doing which is opening up my mind to other things. SO happy about that, hope it last forever. I never want to give him as much thought as I was ever again on such a neg. level.

I'm loosing that zombie state...please don't come back! I may actually be able to do some things for myself now.

I hope your on your way to lighter thoughts, you will feel so relieved, but I know I could backside, no no no!

Stay safe....hope you don't loose you electric at least. Keep in touch!

hey hi-

yeah- the electricity- that's my only thing i'd prefer - some electricity. i don't mind getting blown around- florida is like that allllllllllllllllll summer and fall every year- constant warnings.

MOM will just have to eat beans - wait, she's got tons of cans on her shelfs - waaaay more than me. my kitchen up here is just a re-do of the old pantry(the whole thing) so my entire pantry is one wire rack kind of thing on the wall behind the door- it's weenie- but okay. who cares - i just don't stockpile alot of canned stuff anyway.

YOUR ZOMBIE STATE- i hope mine is gone too. i notice i've got more enthusiasm- even sewing the stupid chair cushion and some things around here- i may be beginning to care what the heck is going on around me again- in a lmited way(isn't it awful that these jerks can be so stupidly blind and cause such havoc in another human being's life and not even care. it's pitiful-

LUCKY YOU - i just cut out my rant - said it all before so here's me -[ NOT SAYING IT - WOO HOO

so, can't decide whether to go to the flea and chat w/people and sell junk and have an acticvity (useful as well) OR - do everything i have around here that requires electricity- laundry- bake cookies- find candles, put away yard stuff and "get ready" for this stupid storm that may or may not come.

decisions - decisions. i guess i'd better go find the weather channel or something. i'm not a tv watcher really (except at bedtime) i guess there will be something on tv or radio.

i agree about the cookies - but i cannot face the foodstore. people go absolutely bonkers - i mean, really , none of us are going to starve for pete's sake. i won't die if i don't have exactly what i want to eat for two weeks. mcdonalds will still exist down the road. like - REALLY!!!!!!1

DOYOU ever just make scones? they're really pretty bad (except hot out of the oven) (no wonder in england they load them absolutely up with cream and jam and butter - it's like eating a gob of wallpaper paste - but the "decorations" make them great.)

anyway- in the traditional method it's like flour and water practically (euuuuuuwwww) - i've modified a recipe one tiny bit so they're palatable (bit of canola oil - bit of sugar) (but still have to eat them hot). - ANYWAY- you can make them in ten min., blob jam and some butter on them (yeah- i know- the fat huh?) and have a "comfort food)" anytime.

don't know why i'm thinking of them- just something easy and quick to eat with junk around always.

i guess i'm edgy cause of this storm- don't know why i'm up at 4 and 5 a.m.- geeez.

funny you saying you're less zombie yesterday- me too. think it's the moon? think we just hit some "point" - i sure wish i was your age. i was trying to think back to 45 . i was always pretty happy & fortunate feeling. i think it may be why i have so many people telling me their troubles all the time- i always thought i was so lucky myself i could spare the ear or time.

oh well- i don't necessarily want to be a differen tperson- i'm just tired of alot of it. some people truly suck me down the old black hole. i don't want to ditch them- i still can feel comassion- i'm just not sure how to "stop" them a bit - you know, after a certain amount of time- i have trouble hearing it and listening - it's alllll lsooooo bad - allll the time. what is the response or thing to say - I WONDER - THAT WILL make them Just lighten up a bit.

i'm thinking i must "allow it" somehow- rite?? i've got to ponder that and work on that thing about me. noticed yesterday because i visited a friend- then realized i like her- BUT - 1) she "grills" me- and i don't always want to talk about all the personal junk she asks. i don't know if she's trying to be caring - or more likely- just wants to check it out and see that her marriage is "better" or her life is "bettr". she's nice- don't get me wrong- she's very very very name-dropper(ie) and i always thought she must feel awfully inadequate to feel she has to say lables and names and so on to try and improve her image - CONSTANTLY.

anyway- left her house tired and thinking how i change my conversation methods to suit new me- need to figure and work on that one. maybe i need to begin asking questions and deflecting hers - 'm not much of a question asker.

h & another friend or two have told me over the years that they like being friends with people like me because they can ask and listen and they don't have to do the work of a conversation (!!)(??) i'm thinking i don't want to be the entertainment committee anymore-

okay- i'm not going to allow myself to think about h today and be hurt becasue it's a weekend and i am (always) suspicious in my mind aobut what he's doing and with who. not that i don't care- just that it makes me too tired to contemplate. is that detachment- a bit anyway?

like you- i think it's the tiredness that's going to get us in the end. i also think that's what makes me not get really rally serious and find a fulltime job. it's me kind of saying okay- i give up- this is the (possibly) end. don't know- maybe i'm too dramatic and black & white about that. somehow this business of being free to go to fl (my life there) - seems to be a sticking point. don't know if i'm wrong or not- oh well- tra la.

gonna see the weather- pack up car if it's even possible we're not getting blown away- or maybeeven if- and

get going. have a great day- go flirt again.

what project are you doing with caulk? i should be winterizing here and mother's a bit- probably should be doing that today too- find her storm windows- cripes. i don't even want to take care of myself- much less her. icky how this turns out in life huh?

what the??? lazy-girl me. i want to cook and sew and fluff and make things- and be someone's excellent companion and sidekick- is that too much to ask??? i'm fun and i travel well.

hope your day is dandy- flirt alot before you get to be my age and your neck looks old-ish. i think my body is great for my age- it's just if i'm tired my neck looks old to me- if i'm well-rested i look fine = funny thing - perception & mental attitude - isn't it?

i'm okay lookin today- ta da..... -

you just made me think of something i notice.

when h is around and here - i am better able mentally to visualize him not being around and me not folding.

when he's gone i'm more "sentimental" about my life with him (i think). that's sad isn't it?

i don't know if i realize how much i'll miss it when he's gone (so have that realization driven home)

- or when he's around i realize if he's not connected here and if he's going to be involved with ow and disjointed from me- well, it stinks and i think i can't do "this" forever.

who the heck knows that one....

Hey Nero, just wanted to say I just came across a post you had written me at the end of August, I had talked about being with my H for 35+ years and was terrified of what was happening to us. You mentioned you had been with H for 34+ years. You had read some of my posts and were looking to read up on my sitch.

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your words, I wish I had seen them earlier and as able to respond to you. I have managed to move forward in my sitch and am working on R with H. He has not made a commitment to M and we have not even talked about our problems or the things he has said or done to me. I slept in the spare bedroom for just on 5 months. One day I told him I didn't want to sleep there any more. I fully expected him to reject me...or move out of the MB, I jumped into bed and there I stayed.

I am taking things day by day, watching him progress through his MLC and often wondering why I am still here. Don't get me wrong I know I am better off than most (as far as I know no PA, however I now believe there may have been an EA, short-lived). I just feel like i'm in limboland without a commitment to work on the M. I guess none of us know what the future holds, its not promised to anyone.

I keep working on myself and creating a life for me that I am proud of. I am keeping my positive changes going and my PMA. He will do what he will do. At times he acts like a total jerk, but I am not buying into any of it. I'm not letting his alien spew affect me any more. Funny, now I notice his body language telling me HE feels embarassed about his lack of control. So he should be ashamed of himself. But main thing is I am happy with me.

I have read up a little on your sitch, I hope you continue to find the strength to fight your fight. You had been together a long time, I feel your hurt. You are an Aussie? Is your H one as well? That is one added hurdle there. LOL.

Wishing you well Nero. Hearing about the storm over here. Keep safe.

hey hi-

i just mean i was being "aussie" - love the idea & accent. NO, WE'RE Americans thru & trhu- me a mutt of eastern european & english, irish, dutch, german, you name it - h arabic & german. (i should have known the minute i found that out huh???

anyway- yeah, it's a heck of along time- feel like my whole life. i'm at a real place of not being able to think about it currently. just exhaustion. hate the ow idea- hate him sometimes- can't imagine life without simetimes- i'd say i'm on "float" with a vengence.

don't know what to do- sympathize with the bed thing- i have been whole time- even when i first found out and wanted to really kill him. can a person REALLY sleep with one eye open? anyway- no other bed in house and i figured why the heck hsould i get a crap nite sleep or run away somewhere- tough nuggies. wierd as hell last year- glad it's over.

we are supposed to get blown away- i need to go put away soem yard junk and find my mom's storm windows. will write later or again-

i sure feelyour response - i think that's what made me write in first place - similarity and being there iwth you and your thoughts/ feelings. it [censored]- one day at a time and one nite more is about as much as i can muster. i don't know either- it's the most unfocused and unhappy i've ever been. BUT - better now than a year ago- so what the???

I cannot imagine how this plays out- thanks for your good wishes- i hope i don't fold & run either. i wonder too what i'm doing here and why i'm bothering. like ajm says- so we don't ever wonder if we didn't give it as much as we could i guess- so we are SURE we are doing the "rite" thing for us-

i'm going out to enjoy the leaves & color before storms blow them away- hopefully no leaks anywhere. i've got word & brain exhaustion (awoke at 4 a.ml and couldn't get back to sleep- edgie over these stupid and exotic weather reports- geeeeez xxo

Quote:

I have managed to move forward in my sitch and am working on R with H. He has not made a commitment to M and we have not even talked about our problems or the things he has said or done to me.

boy- does that sound similar to us. he's being all nice- waaay less critical and just awful than past year or so - BUT no talking about it at all- =(i've sworn off trying that since last big dust-up) - no committment by h- i don't know if he ever will/would. that's a tough one for me. we're not married- i know it's not a guarantee- but it's sure an expression of commitment. it never seemed to matter- now with all this junk going on- i'm not sure i can "do" this free&easy stuff. i don't like feeling like the other woman- and i don't like an open marriage- i'm trying to keep my lid on til i can figure out me or him or both or r. (if there is one still)

he acts like it's all normal as pie- some days i feel nuts .

i'm in your boat exactly- except he comes and goes to house in fla - it's hard & i can't tell if i'm more stressed when he's gone or here- it's soooo wierd on soo many levels - but like you, i just do one day at a time.

i think i like me too- i don't want to be someone new and different (and not me) - i don't honestly know what goes on in his head. when he gets mad he is sooo goofy and it's sooo childish and something i've never ever seen in 30 years- i want to make fun of him. he grits his teeth and talks thru them- GOD - how can this man i knew so well be this guy - wth the stupid clenched teeth- boy it's soooo uncomplimentary.

usually i don't ever get angry any more- i just say he is, not me - we've switched that role. i used to get steamed and explain allover town & try and talk- now i just can't.

do you think sometimes you don't even know what you want from him or with him anymore? i don't exactly want him gone from my life- i wouldn't be here doing this if i did i'm sure- but i just don't know what else there might be. i'm willing to see- i wonder tho.

oh well- hatches half battoned down-t omorrow morning for sure - scarlett. thanks for note- good luck i'll be interested to know how things are going. i'd say success of a sort- hopefully a great "ending" somewhere in the future. fingers crossed for all of us huh? oh man!!!! didja ever forsee this one in your future?????

if it wasn't so tragic i'd laugh (well, sometimes i have to- pressure release) it's so dumb sometimes with us- just plain ole childish and dopey. oh well....

Quote:

My h left our home for the better part of 2 YEARS. Turns out, he was very lonely and I didn't know that for a long time. I will probably never know how lonely he was. Nor did he know how rejected I and our children felt. If he did, he'd probably have talked himself out of trying to return b/c he'd have seen the mountain as too high to climb. As my DB coach said, If you want to have a chance to reconcile (& for now let's say you do), then..you have to Keep the Road Home Paved & Smooth

.

Boy this is hard but so true! I feel like I need to make a hammer out of this and hit myself with it daily. Today's not good...gonna look for that hammer!

Hope your staying on track, you do sound a little better. Stay dry and in place!
_________________________

hey hi-

Quote:

If he did, he'd probably have talked himself out of trying to return b/c he'd have seen the mountain as too high to climb. As my DB coach said, If you want to have a chance to reconcile (& for now let's say you do), then..you have to Keep the Road Home Paved & Smooth

wow- you know, that is a very very worthy perspective. i hadn't quite ever looked at it like that. when you say be a lighthouse i like the mental picture- and i love the idea of "sav\fe haven" and "home". it's something i always felt about my home and mom & family & life in general. (it's sooooo WHO I AM) - still do (even tho i'm ancient). i can see in my life & my entire mentality the NEED to have a homebase and a "gang" to be part of.

that being said- h never ever has. never felt it- never had it (i guess) his mom left with the baby brother- he stayed with nazi father- he has no notion (other than me maybe) of home and stability & "there forever".

i wonder sometimes- he elected to be with a person "like me" for quite a long long time.

your advice is sound i think.

i personally, some days, find the "mountain too big". it makes me stay back and not move forward or toward him. i know according to db and giving them space that's what i should do, stay back .

HOWEVER mentally- i find myself thinking sometimes it's too far to go "back" and i "CAN'T". I KNOW, it's not a very positive attitude- but i don't act on it- i merely float forward i think. but i do GET the MOUNTAIN idea. some days it seems so to me too....

the wind is picking up- i'm watching a tree next door - it's old old old, and probably 80 or 100 ft. hi - sway - and i'm hoping if it (or any of the five or six others in neighbor's yards - so big they can reach my house) won't blow over. it's scary watching them. (all the media hype).

i've turned off tv and am not watching- makes me crazy. going to go have a hot bath & read. hope we keep electricity - ta da...

thanks for that thought/realization. i will bang myself on the head with it also- it's true i'd think. so , like, what? thank goodness they're dense and can't know the havoc they've wrought in others' lives? and can't see how high the mountain is that they've built between them and those that love them? this girl doesn't know

i'm going to take today off from thinking & chores, to do-s, projects - anything in life "I should be doing" and just chill if possible. i'm sooooo tired of trying - today. sounds dramatic- this h & r, my mom (planted a friend with her so don't even have to know she's alone) - this stinking storm and 2 days of rushing around like mad - my sisters & the drama - you name it. FREE - FREE - FREE (IF I don't get blown away- i'm home free). yay.....

i hope your mood/day improve. try and not think at all about anything in the universe. get your hammer out- picture me blowing away in my black, white & pink baggy fleece pj bottoms and a red cashmere sweater- flying away amidst leaves & debris holding my giant green umbrella and banging my own self over the head. i look like hell- maybe i'll wash my hair incase elctricty goes out and i can't dry it= it's sticking out allover theplace because i keep running out in the yard to ppick more flowers that are getting beat up by the wind - but are too glorious to go without being appreciated.

wweeoooooooo hoooooo- i'm flyiiiinnnnnngggg........

xxoo

I pray your safe! I'm glad your home free - maybe the wind will be just strong enough to blow all your crap surrounding you into a whirl wind.

Keep all your batteries strong - and maybe wash your hair cause you don't want to think about not having hot water.

I agree with everything you say about how you feel - dito for me. Bored, tired, and even angry about the whole thing, new life please, she'll have the same!

I hope you do have a pleasant ride with this storm, I'm keeping watch on tv, it's good you stay away from media hype, there more gloom and doom than we are.

Prayers - (((((((nero)))))))))))

I guess I'm journalling

so as a way (I think) to get out from the feelings of failure h faces regarding our "small" house H want's to quick claim deed it to me, get his name off this reminder of what he didn't accomplish.

he'll live in "my" house, pay for "my" house but want's no ownership of his failure.

THis is really alot for a person to take in - what a mind F*** spew I am facing.

We don't have community property laws here - so then I can Will it straight to the kids and then H can pay them rent! That's if crazy people really out live us all on sheer the will to die, they never get there wish!

Sorry this was meant for my thread... But feel free im ranting!

Nero, miss you girl! Hope you'll be back on line soon and your home withstood. Let me know asap, I will keep check in.

peace

hey hi-

just got electricity about 15 min ago. here's me sitting in the totally darkk house- with a little headlight thing on my head- in a jakcet with hood up- gloves - in front living room where i can see the cars & headlites - in the street out front (county rd) with lines of cars waiting to get gas. this road has been bumper to bumper for the entire time of storm - i canot figure out why and where they are/were going. now of course- lined up to get gas - it's been like this for three days. a total snarl-up-

but it was nice to see lights out there- in my jacket and qu8lt and headlite. then, i hear this little "voice" from the kitchen- and turn and see- ta da - a little light from the open refrig door- yayayayyyyyyy.

i am so happy to have electricity after five days of none- you have no idea. it's so exciting to think of heat in this hhouse. it could have been waaay worse- but it's been about 45 in the house at nite and morning- kind of chillie. and i'm the world's worse girlscout. my p8iddlie fire in the morning in fireplace- takes me the whole local newspaper to make one pot of water hot enough for my craapyy coffee- man, it's been sooooo lousey!!!

anyway- sure makes me happy for electricity. i've had hot water- so usually in evening i can warm up laying in a deep tub of hot hot water with my hat on and headlight- i'm sure it would win some stupid prize for world's dopiest picture- pitiful- but was mighty glad for th hot water too.

anyway- no real damage- thank goodness. lots of trees down and power lines- my property and house okay tho. thank God.

so i also had phone- and h has been calling alot every day (?) - he cancelled his travel plans to go visit a friend and immeidatley got first flight he could (tomorrow morning) here to "rescue" me and drive back to fla- rather than sit here iwth no electricity.

soo- he arrives tomorrow mornig- andhere it is tonite just got electric. wierd -0 huh/ i was surprised he'd offer and bother (to be honest). he kept sayign it was an emergency and an extreme situation. it's a bummer- but i mean, you do what you have to rite? it didn't occur to me- i was surprised.

i'm not getting my hopes up for some miracle cure- it's just interesting to note.

i'm really tired and kind of drained from the stress & so on- don't know- just freaky here. gal next door with the invalid motehr- freekie for a few days trying to find oxygen & elec. to recharge battery for lifting device to move mother into bed, etc. she's been a real basket case- poor thing. doing my best to hand-hold. she's a nice girl- i feel so badly and keep thinking how freaked out i'd be in same sitch. took her to fire station on next street over- i love firemen- they are so nice, helped out, made us both cry with their generosity and anxiousness to help- i mean, who does anymore??? fixed her up with a loaner generator & gas & so on. i swear- i've always seen their lights at night and felt glad to know they were there- now even more so. just comforting. no wonder everyone loves firemen. me too ---

that's my story- i'm out of here- just going to enjoy not sitting in the dark freezing (or going to a friends to get warm or have company). haven't seen a tv in five days- yikes!!!

hope all is well with you- i'm in a funny kind of mood here - do not know which way i'm going in life-

will report (* of course) hope you're good- xxoo now, everyone is yakking about a nor'easter coming next week- G0d! people need to shut up and chill for one minute before anticipating anotehr emergency.

(( )) me

I'm soo happy your ok, and your house withstood. Glad to have you back on line as well.

You enjoy you electric and hot coffee in the morning! Did you tell h the electric is on - or do you wanna drive back to fl? Be careful...tread lightly...he's the big storm in your life.

Hope your mom is good!

I'm glad to come here and read that you are okay.

Good to see you are OK Nero. I know it's hard to live without power, the longest I've been without power was between 2 to 3 days. In our electricty contract there was a clause in it which I think said this "If you are left without any power for more than 72 Hours then we will pay you �30 per day compensation. Low and behold 2 hours short of this time, the lights came back on!
On another note a class from my old high school have been and still are stuck in the Big Apple. They've been told they should be on a flight back home this thursday.

And my heart goes out to all you people suffering from this terrible storm.

Best Regards

Love

Delboy

hi and thanks for caring-

what a "blow" here- lots of trees down, etc. people are acting bizerk- it's such a shame.

only have a min. h in shower and i prefer privacy (naturally)anyway- back to fl any day- mom, sister, etc. all spinning out of control - one sister wanted to plunk some woman (we don't know well enough) in with mom to live- woman needs a place to live Free- there ar ethings about her and her "story " that don't quite match up.

it's a totaly freak show- this morning spent 2 hrs with baby sister telling me i'm a controlling b_tch- wow.

she's got some anger issues- it's toooo long a story. i would have said i'm a doormat- who the heck???\\
\anmyway-\\

hang ing in there- thins peaceful(if strange) back to fla any day- was supposed to be tomorrow- mom still wacked out- need to stabilize that plce- man- it stinks to get old and have your memory be junky.

anywa- will chat some time when have time- xxoo to you all and thanks for asking- i am treading lightly aorund my storm by the way- well put.

today i agreed and agreed and agreed til my head fell off. he's pitching in wit this mom sitch- so i'm thankful for that. oh well- life is wierd- then gets even wierder will reply to anyone later. i'm outta here xxoo

Hi, I was glad to see your wrote. I can only imagine by what's on tv what you must be facing.

Be careful with H I'm sure he's in his superman mode, just protect yourself from reading more into it than what is really is, who really knows!

Hope to have you write more when you settle in Fl. You should consider not hiding your time you take to write here, it is your reality and escape your facing here. If he asks just say you are journaling, but be yourself!

Be safe!!!

Boy I sure could use some of you witty personality right now! I am literately going batty! Batty I say with this crazy life I've been dumped into. I hate it so much that I am prepared to chuck it all, through it all in and through him out and hate him forever! To bad my gun is only on air soft, LOL!

Anyway, I hope you well tucked in at you home in FL away from the NJ crazy weather. Be good!

oooooxxxxxxx

My spelling is horrible when I'm upset (threw him) anyway I really am not doing well. I look forward to your colorful words.

Fl better hold some great changes for you, you deserve it!

hey hi-

sorry i was incommunicato. you sound like you've HAD it - i sure know how you feel . sometimes i literally go around yelling at the phone (represents stinking h when he's gone) when i walk by. mostly totally profane and rude stuff like - you know, uh hem (f u u b_stard, etc). childish , but nothing quite defuses one (a bit) to be yelling out loud- hear yourself, realize it- and usually have to laugh (even if it a wry & bitter laugh- it's a laugh nevertheless).

so- seriously- do you yell and scream and curse - out loud & to someone up there???? if you don't have one friend who will listen to you rant- i'm thinking seriously why don't you try and find a support group and maybe will find someone to be buddies with that has got some similar stuff gong on that will be a good venting buddy? just a thought. i failed totally in my one little attempt to find that support group0- bad karma. i do have a bunch of "friends" (some real- some just people) roaming in and around my life in nj- so i'm not quite so isolated.

IT'S just so ALONE & (sometimes) hopeless feeling isn't it? i've noticed in life when things are their most awful- it's the feeling of just being alone and going thru "it" alone that is so stinko. i always wonder if someone was truly "there" for you, with you - if you'd still feel the same because of the nature of "tragedy". know what i mean? can you tell i overthink this junk & cut everyone in the universe a heck of alot of slack?

write to me and vent your little head off. it is sickining some days that guys like me and you even do this- even try- even give these jerks sooooo much slack because of what they were to us. because of what our lives were- because we're so nice & loving (and sickening- and dopey maybe - and care too much for s_itheads that don't even have the brains to appreciate us).

my new overriding theory is that (my h at least) they are typical american men- want everything- the grass is always greener and he is greedy and selfish. cannot even stop and appreciate what he has- for fear he's missing out on something out there that is wonderful. his stupidity is changing my heart- it will be a sad day when i leave him- for him mostly. i am so sick of him thinking i'm so this(bad) and that(bad of course).

i wonder if he3 would ever realize that the reason everything about me seems so awful (or seemed? - who knows) is that the jerk is cheating and in order to not feel like a peice of dirt - which he is by the way- he HAS to view me and everything about me as less satisfactory than his stupid cow of a ow. duhhhhhh- it aint brian surgery buddy. OF COURSE - i'm less wonderful- or you wouldn't be boinking her -

what he's missing is that he is not a nice person- he is not a caring person- he is not a person wi th integrity & honesty (ha- honesty- what a laugh) or loyalty. he is a selfish little animal- gimme gimme gimme. MY PROBLEM is that appaently he ALWAYS has been- i cannot find a place in my mind for this information to go and be processed. i short circuit out when i realize it's always been there forever- in some place in his life- my life- and i didn't know. such is my blind love.

i am curiously detached a bit lately- honestly- i don't know if it's a wonderful overall cure type detachment- or that when he is in my face- i realize i don't want to look at his face and i don't want to really touch him- and he isn't "cute" when he's being cute. it's such a shame- i am not kidding you when i say i am the most flexible and amenible of women- if this dope cannot look at me and think about life with me and realize it probably would not be better with ANYONE- WHAT THE heck??? we had such a nice life together- he has sooooo ruined my heart- and has soooo changed the person i am i think- in that respect. it's such a shame to realize i will probably never be able to go back to feeling for him what i felt.

and it was BIG - AND GOOD. HE'S SOOooooooo afraid i will cling to him- again, sorry to be repetitive, but what a dope! what he doesn't see is that he is changing me and i will never feel the same (maybe) about him- and he has really blown something truly worth having. sooooo immersed in self-land. oiy!!! the insanity of it makes me sorry for him sometimes - he is clueless.

and i don't know why it doesn't work like it does with a baby. they lash out and you would never ever think of holding a grudge- somehow he figures it applies to him. that totally ungrudging love that can withstand everything in the universe. duhhhhhh- how can he not GET that when an adult man makes a decision to trash your heart and feelings and risk everything he has with you- he MADE THAT DECISION with knowledge and experience and you will always kn ow that and consider that. it's not just niave animal instinct like a kid or baby- it's his damn decision-

yeah, yeah, yeah, i know the bit about he is nuts and doesn't know what he is doing- it's true. the shame is tho, we look at them as adults and our mate & friend. there is something soooooooooo particularly rotten about a friend stabbing you in the back- it will be interesting to notice if this treason ever goes away.

OH GOD - TALKING about treason. the girl next door- with the invalid mother and our big hurricane adventures of trying to drive around and find a power source to charge huge batteries for the hydralic lift & oxygen supply (geeeez- we were two hair-raised girls). she was freakign out- i'm so glad i was there to hold her hand- it's soooo nice to have a neighbor- i can even walk over in my housecoat and co ffee cup & chat in the drive (just like a cheesy sitcom) - anyway-

we were chatting- she got telling me about her husband's father living with them while getting progressively worse with alsheimers - and that he just could not get that he couldn't go to the bathroom anywhere he wanted- and she'd have to rush home from work to take over caring for him and her husband was cheating - and she began to cry- i felt so awful for her. she is back together with him- says she trusts him and loves him and it's behind them- but then she talks about it and cries and i realize it's always there as in ALWAYS THERE AND HOW THE HECK does one ever ever ever recover from that??? i felt so sorry- and he's an alcoholic and has psorossis (how the heck does one spell sirossis of the liver anyway? ) soooo- hyikes!!!!! that's sad too- and he requires "handling" - i hope to ?God whichever way i come out of this- that I am done pussy footing around and feeling like a second class citizen.

i was a jerk myself alot of the time- i'm always thinking that h's happiness seems more important- he's the one with the hangups, and rules , and it's a thing i realize about myself- i do make myself a doormat alot - so have no real grounds to gripe about it- i need to man up here in life.

i'm not kidding. i hate fighting - that beingt said, i am surrounded withpeople who want to really get in my face. my baby sister (51) not such a baby huh? is quite an uptight person- but now that she's got some letters after her name- she's got some kind of complex going on about being the "baby" of family and thinking my older sister and i "push her around". if you knew her- you would laugh. she's sooooo adament and mad all the time- i walk round stroking her ego and honestly- we had a conversation about my mom (i'm not even going into it) and i was working sooooo hard picking my words and trying not to be inflammatory- i nearly gave myself a hernia!!!

the upshot was that she let loose - screamed and yelled and acused and judged and told me what a pushy b_tch i was and am and i've been pushign her around for years (???) oh yeah- she's a sensitive and quiet little thing that needs to be protected(not). it was quite a huge display- and me, with my usual diplomacy and cool head ended up half yelling - just do what you want- do it, do it, do it.....

poor ole mom- that woman lives two hours away- sees her for an hour or so every few weeks - and she's judging her mental capacity and ability to live alone successfully and wanting to take charge of her. her overriding message was that she (sister) knows what is good for mom more than mom does. that may be true in a few ways- overall- she's not ready to be locked up. she's enjoying her last years of freedome and independence quite alot (along with alot5 of confusion).

it's sad. i know tensions were high with the stress of preparation and aftermath of a hurricane- BUT. i haven't spoken to her again- i don't even want to hear her voice at this time( sorry but) - she is such a hothead no one can even speak but her. i was apologizing left & rite for nothing at all- and she's yelling "sttttooooop- i don't want to hear this" - oh man. i am surrounded by insanity here no kidding.

i'm in fla - and it's quiet - but i do worry a bit about my mother. she's not a danger to herself or others tho, so for pete's sake- let the woman have her small amount of times left where she lives her own life , in her own place , by her own self with her cats and enjoys feeling in charge of her life. it's merciful i think.

i'm so sorry to rant- i miss ya too- it's lonely when i can't find time to get on line. there seems to be soooo much going on- and of course- no stinking elec GOTTA GOXXO

sorry- boy am i parahoid. here's the thing about doing this while h is around. he is taking apart and building his own computers- if he knows i goes somewhere to talk- what is to stop him from finding it. he is capable.

it is my belief that once we put things on the computer and "out there" someone like him can find them. he can break codes and find things and traces, etc. even if i'm totally clearing my history for the day every time i come here- he doesn't have a clue so he won't go looking,. if he did go looking- he really could find anything - ta da!!!

i'd rather not have it even be a possiblity. i said once i go to a forum i enjoy0- and i'm sorry for that even. now that i don't see him as a wonderful person full of good intention and goodness - i see him as an awful person full of totally bad - selfish instinct and i don't trust one darn thing.

i feel sorry to write that- AND YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT about not getting my hopes up. maybe they don't go up anymore- and that's sad to realize too. when he does or says something nice (not very often- talk) my impulse is "lies" - and what is he trying to pull. i'm beginning to not like this man- and i'm sorry to say that too. he is stupid and not seeing the pain he's caused- but it is sooooo much and sooooo all-encompassing, maybe there is no "back".

i'm remaingin calm- and now need to get out of here - everyone probably looks at my long posts (chats) to you and thinks i'm a n utball- oh well- judge judge judge - everyone in the universe (and expecially my sister) sure are out there to slam down the gavel on some other poor boob huh??? can you spell "paranoia"... i flatter myself to think anyone notice3s i'm sure- so tra la and glad to be in touch with you- it's a Godsend. are you doing any better today? are you really "ready" to go bonkers and chuck him??? are you managing to maintain your calm and control and NOT?

let me know how you're making out this minute- good luck- hugs to you and once again( for the fifty millionth time) i sure wish i was your neighbor- what a support & misery fest we'd have in our kitchens with mugs of coffee. make some scones for the kdis - and eat them hot slathered with butter & raspberry jam - i'm going to make them for my baby here- she loves it when i allow her to use a knife and handle the jam jar herself (wants to eat it straight of course) but hey- it's fruit (rite???) no- i don't let her eat alot of spoons of straight sugar- she's sooooo cute- can't wait to see her-

xxo hang on - (or let go if that's your overriding final decision) we're here for you- as much as we can be - ((((___))))

I often worry about someone i know reading here. Really it shouldn't matter. I sure would not want H reading it though.

It's okay, i think my posts are probably insane too. I think not getting your hopes up is a good thing. Maybe,..

I'm so glad to hear from you! Good that you ok and back in your element.

Your words sound like mine a few months back about H. Your reaching an acceptance point were you see that this is him now, and you may not/need him anymore.

It was a good feeling when I got to that point. But, be careful of those back slides they really hurt and that's when you go a little batty depending you how you handle it!

It's funny you say your h is not ''cute'' any more even when he's trying. I see that too, when I look at h with these new eyes he fashioned for me, he is not cute and even down right ugly at times!

They really put a neon sign on their heads saying look at me while I show you all my faults so you can see that I am an ugly man.

I don't have friends to confide in, your right. At this point I would settle for someone to have lunch with and not even discuss H. I really miss all my guy friends, they were the absolute best friends I ever had. My best guy friend (old boy friend) from my teens died 3yrs ago, I miss him like hell.

He loved my h and pushed me to marry him trusting he was a great guy (which he was, then) as did my cousins and closest friends.

Today he would have opened his home to me asking me to stay, relax, retreat and have a beer while watching football. He would have said "i love you" hugged me, held me tight and make me feel like that 17yr old who left home and found that sometimes a stranger can treat you better than your own family!

I have always loved guys as friends...they don't hold sh!t it just rolls of their backs. Not mine though he has to embrace every neg. thing that comes his way these days.

Someone wrote on my thread that she (and I can see ME) spends to much time looking for h's love, needing his love and attention. It's funny how much I do need his expectancy, love, understanding, and kindness. From HIM? I am an educated, youngish, not bad looking, sweet person, why do I need his attention, approve, to feel good?

I think it's because I put so many yrs (suppose to be for life) into our r that its the rejection that drives me crazy, because when he's not being all rejecty I have a better day, stronger minded, like I could move on.

I would love a scone & raspberry jam is my favorite. At night we could make strawberry frozen drinks (im learning to drink) and watch movies that show hansom guys being sweet.

I hate that he ''can't move out'' I think I could easier than him. Take my car, my daughter, get a small apt. work and be free. He stays here pays the same bills nothing would change for him. If he leaves he would have to pay everything here plus his new life.

Plus, I have been wanting to move for 6yrs now. I hate staying in one place! I don't even want to be in Il. any more. I hate the weather and Chicago is soo over priced just go get dinner and park.

My mom was born in NY, and I have family in Allen town PA. I tried it 27yrs ago but I think the SW,W is where my heart belongs.

How do we cut the rope, drop the rope, get away from them already. She also asked me if I would want him back, my life back and the answer is truly no. Not at all like he is, or even was, now I see it would never be good enough now. So what am I holding on too, crying about, sad for.......!

I can't figure it out! It must be so much easier to have a million dollars and just buy yourself freedom, an escape, and some damb sunshine on a beach!

Hey do you live by the beach? We had a house in Avon park Fl. yrs ago, it had a lake w/ducks! My friend is in ClearWater, we visited her in Jan and the weather was great. Try to live every moment happy!!!!!!

hey hi-

i sure don't want h knowing alllllll this goop. way i figure is this- if mwd is saying DON'T have r talks - this would be the kiss of death. if these people are supposed to be ALLOWED to do what they do (to us) and be what they are (awful) and not know it- that knowing it would create an obstacle soooooo huge they would never ever even have the gumption or shame to try to "come back" to the decent side -

then- reading our total honest assessment of them sure wouldn't help - maybe it would- but honestly- my gut says he doens't need to know this personal side of my misery- i just hate the thought. it's so much pain- it's sooooo personal (funny huh that i can spill my guts to a bunch of strangers - i don't miss the irony of whati'm saying) it's MY PLACE to go- my buds, MY lifeline - etc.

as for friends - I think also that everyone here is feeling something similar - and it's mighty bad. people not in our shoes this very moment- bleeding probably to one extent or another- are not going to have the same level of understanding of what we're saying and feeling.

it's not just "pity" here- it's understanding really and trying to put your own spin on stuff and help someone out - while they're hellping you out- it's not just wah wah- it's possibly an idea exchange that is constructive too -

i chat with some mighty kind friends- i can see in their eyes and in their "response" to my sitch that they keep mum about their opinion as to what i should really do with(to) h- it's kind of them and i appreciate it because i don't need more judgement or plea for action than i heap on myself. everyone knows that it floating around out there and what our society expects someone wronged to do- soooo- i'm thinking they are well meaning and want me to be happy- but they're not able to really really "get it" like the folks here. )

i'm being unfair to a couple people - they seem to understnd what we're tryign to do- but still want to scream "dump him" at the top of their lungs - but don't. good friends aren't they? to try tohelp and to rise above that urge ??? i do appreciate them all - honestly.

i have a friend who is a real paranoid & super snooper kind of gal. she was tryign to get me to say what the forum was i go to- not on your life. she'd be in here reading it all- kind of like (sorry) a vampire feasting on some poor jerk's blood- i can picture it- some people just can't help themselves from "enjoying" (for want of a bettter word) others's pain and misery because it reinforces that their life-husband- whatever isn't so bad. i do not need to be providing that to anyone.

i like her- i think she's a good person- it's just a side of her that is there- ta da. good luck with your own journey and thanks for comment- i thhink we all sound "insane" sometimes- that's what i mean- feeling this much grief and pain kind of makes younutty and you need other people who know - telling you it's okay- get it out- and we understand and it's not nutty under such a big stress as this all - i know my posts sound crazy sometimes and i chase my tail- i don't mind here - it helps me to know others feel same way too - thank God for dawnmarieQQQ!!!!!

Quote:

Your words sound like mine a few months back about H. Your reaching an acceptance point were you see that this is him now, and you may not/need him anymore.

I do NEED him and what he used to be. i may not get it - but whatever all that ws i sure need it to feel happy. i still feel like that - even tho i look at him and mull over what i now know about him - and the overriding picture is of a selfish man who felt & feels free to be and do whatever it is he wants and lie and drag me along in his life - and still consider me (obviously) of less worth & consideration than him and his whims & fancies.

i'd like to feel equal- i do not. i see now that my "love" and placing his happiness first - has only reinforced his conviction in life that i am - SECOND and should be (i guess). knowing he had & has had some kind of r with this ow for the last 30 years makes me physically ill to think- and talk about a mountain one cannot get over- that is probably it. that he has been a selfish pos FOREVER - and lied & allowed me to think he is a good person.

he has used me - & by my standards it's allllll been a sham & a game. my life - i don't think he is a decent person. i know i am too judgemental of him- i don't know if that will EVER change- it is very very bad seeing him without love glazing over his "downside" -

I would never have even given this guy the time of day if i knew he was a liar when we met - or even sniffed it. - i hate it. you'd think i'd be less "gullible???" since i'm so avers to lying - wouldn't you.??? i would.

Quote:

Someone wrote on my thread that she (and I can see ME) spends to much time looking for h's love, needing his love and attention. It's funny how much I do need his expectancy, love, understanding, and kindness. From HIM? I am an educated, youngish, not bad looking, sweet person, why do I need his attention, approve, to feel good?

you told me once in the beginning - why not? it's what we all want- it's what i want too . personally- i think we are love junkies. it's great and it's a wonderful feeling in life to feel loved and special. IT'S OUR DRUG OF CHOICE - i hate him most for taking that away. even if it was an illusion- i felt it and it made me happy- he has shattered that (the most important thing in my life - and maybe i'll never ever be able to see him without seeing the him that ruthlessly created it- then shattered it.

I'VE THOUGHT of going to aa only because it sure sounds the same to me- we DIE for a sip - we can hardly go thru a day (at the bad times) without a sip- we are literally love alcoholics and our lives revolve(d) around our habit. for better or worse- i don't feel badly about it. itis the best feeling in the world- to be loved & return it. for these jerks to have ruined THAT and tainted that - is so sacreligious almost. i do sound nuts don't i - but it's like that with me. it was (mayube)unrealistic- but i know what was there and what i felt- to make it a sham is like abusing a child - to kill that "trust" - of someone that loves you & trusts you. WELL- abusing a child is waaaay worse- they are so pure & loving- people who abuse kids need to be (gulp) executed probably. . sorry- my take on it

if i "run away" at any moment- it's just that he is coming home from tennis. the sad thing is that i don't trust one word or action or anything aboutt his dope- when i consider the magnitude of what he has lost & done (and probably is oblivious) oh brother!!!

Quote:

I think it's because I put so many yrs (suppose to be for life) into our r that its the rejection that drives me crazy, because when he's not being all rejecty I have a better day, stronger minded, like I could move on.

iknow- me too. i rely on him and him being in my life- i don't think now that he will be forever - i'll man up one of these years - but i can see i still feel that too. sleep helps too tho- i'm a stronger person when i've had some.

Quote:

I hate that he ''can't move out'' I think I could easier than him. Take my car, my daughter, get a small apt. work and be free. He stays here pays the same bills nothing would change for him. If he leaves he would have to pay everything here plus his new life.

i'd say this is a huge consideration/problem.

Love junkie, love junkie, hey hey! THat's me! WHat a great tune that would make.

I think the one thing we can agree on is we want/need the person they were, we still love the person they were, and we struggle with knowing their not there now/anymore.

So how to fix it/me - time - dbing - all the other magical words of wisdom combined. Yes, no, probably hopefully! But, there is always going to be a tidbit, morsale of pain, regret, sadness, not sure which one yet, that will always remain inside of my heart that hurts my sole just a pinch.

So how do I move on is still the big question of my life. I really think it's harder with him here, but there's nothing to do about that. So I have to figure a way for me to get out from under my own weight.

I need something new! Your lucky to have some babies around you. I haven't held a baby in yrs and now she wouldn't even know me. I am going to try my hardest again to not be down, or angry, and really try to get out more.

Winter is not my friend, but I guess we don't have a shortage of coffee shops here. I am thinking of a vacation, alone, maybe just a few days, it would be good for me to step back.

Enjoy your good weather, I envy people who can move house to house. I think it's important in life to move your a$$ and see new surroundings. I'm so sick of giving my H soo much attention, yet I can't stop, i'm a junkie, hoping for that one time it will work and he will magically be right!

NO not really - I know better - he's so ugly to me - I think I am an answer junkie - why did you do this to us!

Today's a beautiful fall day in the tree lined suburb I live in with 50+yr old trees swaying in the warm wind. SO I need to get one some old jeans, a hoodie, grab the dog, and get outside. I love Sunday's - wish we could freeze time!

heyhi- sorry to hear you're so blue. i wish i did have a magic wand. it is hard to get "un stuck" with all this. when i am arund h - it's easier to envision leaving. when i'm not- all the old nostalgia floods in a bit (a bit!) and that makes it harder. so, maybe that's something?]\\\\

what i was going to say before - is that the whole thing of splitting physically - as in two households - i think a couple things. i think it makes it easier for them to (if they're going to) forget us. my gut says it- if we're not in their face- who is to say they don 't find it a hell of alot easier to screw aorund, etc. look at me and my sitch!Q

i read a statistic somewhere that said when you guys split up- a woman's lifestyle/income decreases by 74% and a man's increases by 45% - something like that. i believe it.

AND THEN - wonder/worry- if he's shocked by the reality of paying for two households- guess whose household is going to lose if h decides he doesn't want the burden of two. yours. mine - he wants to date- it takes $$ - would he rather spend it on his own amusement or yours? i hate to make them sound shabby- but i think they are a self-serving - self-preservation lot of guys. if it's you or him- i'm afraid it's you - that suffere. me too - i don'tw'ant to have any optimism. '

i just think this kind of stuff. tho, my overall plan if i've got to get the heck out of his life is to have a job in place (if possible) so taht i can afford myself and buying him out without too awful of a struggle - and i'm pretty used to being poor - or feeling poor- but it was always nice to have someone there to share life with- and who wasn't poor - also paying the bills.

gotta blow

thanks for writing on my thread - I responded! I feel stronger today, your posts and everything/everyone here helps reel me in from the edge!

I'm still looking for that beach! Today it's cold in the MWest

I've been struggling to keep positive too. At some point, I think I have to just allow myself to feel it--as sucky as it is. Spent yesterday watching Upstairs Downstairs from the 1970's and laying in bed. Not what I want for every day, but it's what I needed for yesterday. This all takes its toll.

Bubble Bath helped yesterday. Glad you are feeling a little better.

Much Love,
Heather

i know, it is a problem pulling yourself back (in) from the brink. i think i have several "brinks" going- i find myself more and more contemplating the sort of person this h is- and i wonder if he is just a bad person - to be able to be so un-compassionate and able to deal out such bad treatment and hurt - for so long- i'm thinking that not only is he possibly not the man i thought he was- maybe he is not even a person i want to know, much less be involved with.

my heart is somehow still "engaged" - i am not "free" of him yet0- but i keep thinking if i knew back when i met him what i know about him now- lying- cheating- i don't think i would ever have allowed myself to become involved - much less in love. it's a wierd/sad thing- this "love" bit. i cannot see if it will persist and prevail- or if it's sooooo damaged that he has killed my heart (for him anyway).

bubble bath a good idea- i need some tho. playing with my neice's baby (3.5 yrs ) is my particular "cure" when in fl. she's soooo funny & full of love & life- i cannot resist and just let myself go and float off into baby-land. keeps me sane when i'm able-

thanks for response- good luck and hang in there (i gfuess) i'm wondering sometimes WHY exactly i do hang in there- is it habit or do i still feel "it" is worth something? no answer to taht either- but i do notice that when i lay awake worrying about this junk- it seems less long and my actual PAIN is not there like before- i'm becoming dulled to it - death of something here- question is - WHAT EXACTLY?????

I am so floating down the river - with nothing on either side to grab onto - I ALMOST feel like i'm watching now- as it all unfolds - and my sheer powerlessness is not so dramatic & painful like before. (at least this moment- no promise of being cured here)

i'm just this person- watching this crappyy little life/drama unfold- and wondering where it goes. i kind of have a sad feeling it all ends with never seeing his face again- at some point - maybe waaay down theline- maybe not. how else could it? really?

he doesn't get it that every single day he has ow and i know it- he may as well wake me up with a slap on the head and a sign saying "you are crap to me". unfortunately- i'm not to me or the rest of the world (one hopes) . he thinks if i am alive in his space and he doesn't say it- and i don't say it- it's not there. foolish man - he only sees what he wants & needs - it will be his huge-est mistake. oh well- i guess he's floating along in his own torrent and there we have it!!!!

No snare like folly
no torrent like greed
no shark like hatred
no flame like lust

is that the proverb i'm thinking of?

God, i hate it when i'm philosophical & think we're all alike- and possibly all ONE. IT'S EASier by far to just judge & be mad. wah wah-

xxo

hey hiya-

you know- i can't figure out why i have somuch trouble finding you. i thought i made you a "favorite" or watched person - but i did something wrong- areyou able to tell me how i go about making a list of watched people so you appear easily somewhere?

duhhh-hate to be such a dope - can't seem to work this thing.

anyway- i couldn't find you today- so i'm just writing here.

hope your day is going well- and glad you're feeling stronger. boy are you correct - about this place reeling one in from the edge. today i'm wondering what would be so bad about going over the edge??? iknow i'd be poor and lonely- but i'm thinking this is a crummie half-life - sad & creepy kind of life- and i'm selilng myself short. i don't have anything better to be doing- or anyone to be doing it with- but it seems pretty pitiful and icky to spend this much time in the life of someone who can say he wants less of me in his life.

why exactly would this guy fly up to nj to fetch me down here- ?/??? anyway. so wierd i can't even make up theories any more. now, is that an improvement or not??? one wonders- forever i've only seen the best in him- now i see lies or nothing. that is really sad- seeing nothing.

i was thinking it this a.m. on my walk- can't even imagine the "good" motivation anymroe. oh well

gong to do something creative- that will make me feel lots better. painted my sunhat becaue it was getting grubby (lt pink) and need a hat alllll the ti me down here. me- white, white, white & freakles & red hair - blue eyes. can you tell i do not tan???

had tons of fun with baby yesterday- we walked for a couple hours- she ran around a hell of alot- i was surprised she could go for so long and wanted to. she remembered all teh highlights of the neighborhood (giant lawn/drainige place outside L>A> fitness - which we call the valley7 & the mountains. it's deep - she loves running down in the bottom- down sharply sloping grassy "hills" for about 50' or so- man, are kids ever funny & easy to please. ; the pools & waterfalls outside the mai kai restaurant; a block long stretch of "forest" (grass with a few tall pines here and there ABOUT 25 ft. wide and a block long between neighborhoods- the canal & ducks, etc. il aughed like mad. no one can figure out what she's talking about with mountains and valleys & forest.

it made me tired and kept me totally distracted in a pleasant way7. yay- one more day thru without folding, jumping, or anything dr4amatic.

i'm feeling wierdly resigned today- if this man is who he seems to be (now) - he is not a man i admire or (maybe) can love. don't know which way this all is going- will continue to float if i can - or he tips me over - or i fall off the "falls". I may not have a raft right near by- or a life preserver on- but i think i can float long enough to get to a shore.

story of my life huh??? oh well- i'm off to chop up an old cashmere sweater and make a teddy bear from it. totall no-plan, enjoyment activity. ta da.....

hang in there- one of these (years) we'll chat about this all and laugh (ya think???) - fingers crossed and do not jump today. that is all we've got to do- stay in place one more day- xxoo (((( ))))

i can't find your tread to look- i'll go try again tho.

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2295078&page=5

You have to go to new comers and sometimes go several pages over like 3 or more until you see my name. I'm on my phone, using my computer right now to convert some movie files so I can watch them off of my itunes from all my device's. I'm an electronic junkie, hey better than an h junkie. Husband, not the drug h!

Today will be about me or bust! Be back again later! Tell me more about that sweeter to teddy bear trick.

hey hi- so, how did your me-day go? didja succeed?

i didn't make bear- did begin chopping but gotr side tracked in this workroom-from-hell- i swear- i get soooo much great stuff and ingredients for projects piled here and there. it's truly depressing to see- made a dent in tidying- \
\
n this one thing- i can see where looking (even) at this jumble of a room can depress h. it's not his business really- i totally don't judge his messes- but - HE sure does mine. i agree really tho- it's a deterrent tome to get things done because too much "stuff" hanging on and over me. it's better today- need to keep going and load out some stuff that is donatable or garage saleable.

walkign this mornnig- got thinking how big a bummer it is to see H acting and interacting normally with a variety of people- but unable to just lighten up and loosen up and be his old pleasant self to me. maybe it's something that is etched in stone now and unchangeable. he's nicer than has been in years- but i'd think he also thinks how he is free to just do whateverthehell he wants.

i hear him approaching- byyyye

okay- i'm nuts and paranoid. anyway- was thinking maybe this is "it" forever- i don't like this "it". do you think we either have to get lost or resign ourselves to forever being in the position of being a fond old dog- and tahtis that? or what?

I get it that things will never be the way they were. i just don't know what they could be instead - now. or if they must alwasy be something bad now.?/ this ow stuff is the real soul-sucker. i want out - i feel trapped - but i don't just take the extra step of gnawing my leg off to get out of the trap.

what the???? oh well- now that i say that out loud- i make myself tired and depressed- so i'm shoving it to the back of my reality to be dealt with tomorrow - scarlett. so- how long do we do this before we do that? (or something different?) do you reckon-

i can't believe you know what you know adn have done "this" for (is it?) six years??/ i wonder if I could last that long- you have guts dearie. and stamina.

i'm outta here- that bear for sure - did work a bit on some wallpaper in a dollhouse i began about five years ago- oiy

fhave several here and there- one of these years alllll the projects will be done=- *('ll probably drop dead from lack of purpos.

xxoo

daWNMARIE-

what if you and I are merely having trouble breaking a bad habit (well a good habit that went bad)?????

WHAT IF it's not a darn thing in the world more than that?????

what if we're just like people quitting smoking who fall off the wagon- climb on - fall off - climb on- etc.

WHAT IFFFFF????? THEN WHAT?

''he's nicer than has been in years- but i'd think he also thinks how he is free to just do whateverthehell he wants''.

My H started the nice, no yelling thing a few months back. It does throw you, but don't read anything into it, it's just a new phases he's going through. It really means nothing, just take it - be nice back, not expectations.

''was thinking maybe this is "it" forever- i don't like this "it".

That's was my worry to like ok now he's nice, but I don't like him, he's still and a$$, but everything I read points to a new phase. I know they will finally settle on one character and I did fear this was it, but I think he has to finish coming out of all the phases, before he settles in.

Read - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=109240&page=1
It's about the 6 stages - It helped me understand soo much. I hope it helps you, it is great read!

''what if you and I are merely having trouble breaking a bad habit (well a good habit that went bad)?????''

Oh, yea there's some of that in there as well. We want our lives we made and don't like change! But, here it is and we're fighting mad

, and mad

I don't like some of the things about myself during this sitch. I can only pray I come out a better, more secure person for someone else to appreciate and love.

Your perfect mate is based on how the person makes you feel about yourself, well he makes me feel awful, just plain awful! So I am becoming more comfortable with the idea that I need a new mate, or even one at all since I seem to have nobody now!

He no longer gets that power over me, even during our marriage he wasn't everything I wanted, but you make excuses, or weight it out with the good they do provide. He doesn't deserve that understanding from me anymore, that sacrifice I made when he was quirky and antisocial.

I will play out the stages, see who he will be in the end, but I will not cheat myself out of a better future if he doesn't meet my needs as a partner.

It's been 3yrs since he flipped and 1 & 1/2 yrs ago he had an A, no A for a yr now, but continue's an emotional affair so he can have someone junkie with junkie friends to smoke, drink, and hang with. He hates himself so has to express that with these junkies then come home to be human again.

I don't want to be "one" phase of his new life anymore, his fall back, his security, it's getting old fast, and what's in it for me.

Your right we're stuck! What to do - not much, let it play out all the way through so we know where we land is not forced, but hopefully a happy secure "this is were I belong, finally"!

Quote:

Your perfect mate is based on how the personmakes you feel about yourself,

Nobody "makes" you feel anything about yourself, unless they have some kind of double secret mind-control device or something. It's not your mate's responsibility, it's yours. Unfortunately, this fact was left out of the "life manual and guide book".

T^2

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Quote:

Your perfect mate is based on how the personmakes you feel about yourself,

I am discovering this is TRUE -- if our MLCer's would realize this they be blaming us -- and we wouldn't be blaming them - excellent point T2 !!

Your ideal mate is based on how that person makes you feel about yourself!

He/she makes you feel valued and significant, despite the faults and failings that you know you have. He/she wants to make you feel wanted, dedicated to and captivated at the same time. He/she doesn't want to make you feel less than, or inadequate or lacking in any way.

That's not magic it's love, it's you smiling when you think of them, that loving feeling that was placed in your heart by how they make you feel!

H says I make him feel loved, he makes me feel sad!

Nero - what is your take on this?

Quote:

He/she makes you feel valued and significant, despite the faults and failings that you know you have. He/she wants to make you feel wanted, dedicated to and captivated at the same time. He/she doesn't want to make you feel less than, or inadequate or lacking in any way.

My W "made" me feel that way for many, many years before her mlc. Then she withdrew that in mlc. I have since learned to provide that for myself. So, where does that (those feelings of worth, forgiveness, not lacking, etc) come from originally, her or other people, or me??

And if/when W comes out of MLC, or if I move on to someone else, the mate can only ADD to those feelings I already have/self-generate, but never, ever, again, take them away. They are mine.

Originally Posted By: dawnmarie

Your ideal mate is based on how that person makes you feel about yourself! He/she makes you feel valued and significant, despite the faults and failings that you know you have. He/she wants to make you feel wanted, dedicated to and captivated at the same time. He/she doesn't want to make you feel less than, or inadequate or lacking in any way.
That's not magic it's love, it's you smiling when you think of them, that loving feeling that was placed in your heart by how they make you feel! H says I make him feel loved, he makes me feel sad!

You are saying that when your spouse values you - you feel valued - when they want you they feel wanted - T2 is saying that unfortunately now we have to find out how to do that on our own - OR - leave our spouses and find someone else who wants to fullfill these needs for you.

BUT if you learn to do these things for yourself - think about the person you would be - completely depending on YOU for all your needs and happiness - seems like it's the way we should have been all along - a very painful way to learn it - but it's the way it should be anyway.

I don't know how long you been with your hubby but my wife was the best mate in the world for 13 years, a depressed but still mostly wonderful one for 1 year and a pretty nasty evil one since April - I love her - she can't see that she loves me - yet she does show slight glimpses of it - very little ones - she is angry, afraid, unclear and really very lonely. They are MANIC - they have no control of there emotions and are in a very reactive state of mind - they are looking for things to fill them, affairs to give them passion and excitement - they are in a nutshell the OPPOSITE of what they used to be.

I am not telling you to stay or go - God knows I want to leave all the time - and MOST people WILL tell you to LEAVE

Here is what keeps me there at least for now - MY WIFE IS THE BEST - I LOVE HER - SHE IS NOT HERSELF - SHE IS ILL - I think if the roles were reversed and I was acting like this - she would pray for me and BE MY LIGHTHOUSE - maybe I am wrong - but that's the kind of person she was.

I don't think we deserve the indifference and pain that we go through - it's unbearable - my wife is so callous and cold - if we happen to barely touch when we walk by each other she recoils like a cobra - she is absolutely physically repulsed by me now - she is looking to date other men - I know it's nuts - but like I said - I feel like I have to do whats right and not what I feel like doing.

I hope you have the strength to stand as long as it takes but you are always free to go - don't forget that - you only have to stay as long as you want to !!

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers !!

Sunny

Quote:

T2 is saying that unfortunately now we have to find out how to do that on our own - OR - leave our spouses and find someone else who wants to fullfill these needs for you.

Close...

No one will ever be responsible for fulfilling those needs in me again...they can certainly add to them, enhance them, challenge them, etc.

But at the end of the day, whether with my W or if I leave and find someone else, only I am responsible for fulfilling MY needs, feelings, self-esteem, self-love and so forth. There is a difference between final responsibility and having someone add or enhance them. Make sense?

SunnyBurst- I have been with my H since I was 21yrs old (that's 24yrs) and probably only secure in the knowledge that I loved him and felt at home with him.

Over the yrs, with babies and mortgages love grows up, becomes more mature in it's needs, and expectations, but hopefully you never loose that initial raw simple feeling that started the seed to grow.

I understand that we all should probably be a little more secure for ourselves but even those of us who are strong in character need that seed planted in us that the love of another offers. I'm not saying I'm a mess, but I do miss how H made me feel that for "him", I was a light in his heart.

Every way you describe your W is how my H is acting and I myself have had to recoil from his manic way. "OPPOSITE of what they used to be." Yes, that's the rub!

I do not have intensions of going anywhere, but I am going to read up on someone's suggestion that I may becoming a WAS. Tired of being a LBS I may be moving forward. I take it a WAS can be figurative for me as well as H, as he hasn't left home.

I have been nothing but kind, understanding and validating toward my H, to help facilitate a positive outcome from all of this for everyone, whatever that may be, because ILH.

I have to learn to be many things for myself now, it's been a flood of emotions for me over the last 1 1/2 yrs. I welcome your thoughts and prays for the strength to continue forward!

Hey, Nero darling! I hope your enjoying these posts. I know your learning everyday as well as I am to be happy without the H's we had, and how to be with the H's left behind. Hope and prayer!

Or put a different, reverse way:

"I love you, therefore you are obligated to provide, and responsible for, my happiness, my self-esteem, my needs, my sense of value, etc"

Is this love? Placing the above stone around their neck?

Originally Posted By: dawnmarie

SunnyBurst- I have been with my H since I was 21yrs old (that's 24yrs) and probably only secure in the knowledge that I loved him and felt at home with him.
Over the yrs, with babies and mortgages love grows up, becomes more mature in it's needs, and expectations, but hopefully you never loose that initial raw simple feeling that started the seed to grow.
I understand that we all should probably be a little more secure for ourselves but even those of us who are strong in character need that seed planted in us that the love of another offers. I'm not saying I'm a mess, but I do miss how H made me feel that for "him", I was a light in his heart.

Every way you describe your W is how my H is acting and I myself have had to recoil from his manic way. "OPPOSITE of what they used to be." Yes, that's the rub!

I do not have intensions of going anywhere, but I am going to read up on someone's suggestion that I may becoming a WAS. Tired of being a LBS I may be moving forward. I take it a WAS can be figurative for me as well as H, as he hasn't left home.

I have been nothing but kind, understanding and validating toward my H, to help facilitate a positive outcome from all of this for everyone, whatever that may be, because ILH.

I have to learn to be many things for myself now, it's been a flood of emotions for me over the last 1 1/2 yrs. I welcome your thoughts and prays for the strength to continue forward!

Hey, Nero darling! I hope your enjoying these posts. I know your learning everyday as well as I am to be happy without the H's we had, and how to be with the H's left behind. Hope and prayer!

That sounds awesome - we gotta be WARRIORS like T2 says !!

Quote:

No one will ever be responsible for fulfilling those needs in me again...they can certainly add to them, enhance them, challenge them, etc.

Great look on life ahead, we all need to learn this!

We are all a little older and a little wiser, so yes the way we approach love, commitment again, w/spouse or someone new will be a more mature, careful, (for lack of better word) adult (at least for me) way of making new choices. Plus, I believe we do carry that "I've been hurt factor" again, IMHO!

But, I wonder, at least for myself, if this sitch never happened would I be learning how to become so emotionally independent or content being in the security of a good marriage.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

Yep I hear ya - sounds pretty pathetic !!

These are questions, concepts, challenges I have been putting to myself and ruminating on for the last year or so...

If I'm going to go through hell, might as well get the T-shirt and souvenir key chain...lol.

Quote:

But, I wonder, at least for myself, if this sitch never happened would I be learning how to become so emotionally independent or content being in the security of a good marriage.

Originally Posted By: TSquared2

From the T2 - LBS store LOL

thanks for the link for the stages. i've heard people refer a millions times to the 'stage" - but didn't know where they'rew getting their info.

i doneed some objective view- iusually try and avoid rules & lables. (ironic huh? since i am the "lable queen" and feel alot happier whn i can put labls on things i can understnd.

oh well- i never prom9ised perfection.

Nero - I hate perfection, I muck up my own hair just to look a little disheveled

hey hi=

what a giant flurry of input about this "making self happy" thing.

i totally "get" that we are responsible to some extent for our own feelings- & happiness, sense of well-being, etc. I've used that technique a million times on myself- if i'm part of the problem- i can be part of the cure. BUTTT.....

i do not think we can discount the ability a loved one, or someone has to cause feelings in us. it's just a giant power people have over each other (and misuse) alot in life. all kinds of people - it's there- we feel it- it "makes" us feel the desired emotion. someone insults you - you feel embarassed- on and on...

UNFORTUNATALY- IF SOMEONE sticks you with a pin - you bleed. it's nothing to do with your feelings about it- your responsibility, your own part in it- it's just a physical reaction & fact. the blood pops out- it's how we're made.

also- unfortunately- if you love someone- they have the enhanced ability to hurt you- period. It may be our responsibility to pick ourselves up and carry on- protect our heart with this wisdom and never allow it to happen again(?) - have seen it coming - etc. - but it exists. ("the enemy?") in life??

we are absolutely affected by those we love- they can wreak havoc with our emotions and heart - as in "HEART". NOt- our actual physical heart- and no it's not their actual ability to physically "make" us (force us) feel something - or do something. NEVERTHELESS - you see where i'm going. they can and do influence us emotionally with a kind or ratty word or action.

i'm not sayin BLAME - it's probably counterproductive. (even when you've got a good case for it - say, someone shoots you) emotionally tho - -how very easy life would be for everyone if we were all off the hook for the pain our actions cause. tra la - NO RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL FOR WHAT WE DO TO OTHERS. easy street. it's not like that with people- we're human- i'm thinking we owe it to everyone to treat them as we'd like to be treated.

i don't think most people think like that- they bash thru life leaving a wake of bodies- they can do harm & inflict pain & do (alot) - they should realize it and act accordingly- it's soooo much easier to just worry about number 1. (i've got some attitude here- didja notice - about people TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for what they do to others???).

i'm not sayin my H was RESPONSIBLE for my happiness- he surely contributed by producing feelings in me i loved to feel. he did it on purpose - he chose to please me- woo me - i loved him for that - maybe he bestowed that... (his intention- make me feellove for him)

he likewise made choices and did things that produced the opposite. I don 't like him too darn much at all for that. he chose to lie & lie - . the truth would have produced pain - he knew it, maybe - BUT he chose to lie (for whatever reason). if i had the courage to ask for the truth - he didn't have the courage to give it. He could tell himself he's absolved of aLLLLL RESPNOSIBILITY because we make our own happiness. it's just a bunch of hoohey - he did something to create the pain - knowingly - & i felt it. i can't think how to dress it up as something else.-

i'd say being human makes us able to be "touched" by people - the good news & the bad news.

so- it's my responsibility now to "save" myself from it and him- to yank myself up by my bootstraps and not let the pain take me under- BUT, honestly, I've alwasy been a happy girl- yet knowledge of his treachery plunged me immediately into such a stinking funk it's been 1.5 yr coming out of it (somewhat) - if that's not cause & effect- i don't know what is. he dealt it- i felt it- i canlet that crap go as human nature- but it is what it is

i hope that made sense- i'm losing my way here- it's magical the power we have over those we love- and who love us. we need to all use it wisely- (for good.) - God i sound like ajerk - oh well huh?

all of us every day can give happiness or give pain- & make someone else feel it - it's daunting & scary... how tough or vulnerable we all can be & are. (take away air for five minutes or so and we're all dead- if that's not fragile, (yeah- even men) i don't know.

we can conquer it- & use it wisely- but we can't deny it (i don't think)

Quote:

Here is what keeps me there at least for now - MY WIFE IS THE BEST - I LOVE HER - SHE IS NOT HERSELF - SHE IS ILL - I think if the roles were reversed and I was acting like this - she would pray for me and BE MY LIGHTHOUSE - maybe I am wrong - but that's the kind of person she was.

i want to feel this again- with as much certainty as i did. today i wonder if i've been wrong about everything -

thanks for thoughtful reply- i think we can be one kind of happy within ourselves- but it takes anotehr person to take us to that other kind of happiness place. i just would like that back please- i'm a togetherness kind of gal -

oh well huh???...

hiya-

it's not a "stone" like you describe. this think we feel - it's more like an incredible power that person has allowed you and should realize it's just that another human being has "let you in" to their life & heart - totally. nothing held back and loves you unqualifiedly for what and who you are.

yeah- nmaybe that creates an "obligation" of sorts to treat them with compassion- that's about it. just respect their heart - do your best to be kind. real scary! what is so scary? .

what the heck is such a burden about feeling like someone is open to you to such an extent that your happiness increases theirs? and your sorrow makes them weep for you?

i'd think your millstone sounds like something my h would say- i'm just weighing in from the other side .

i'd say (cheesily so) that it's selfless maybe

Yes, they ARE responsible for THEIR words or actions (good or bad) towards us, I didn't say they weren't.

Responsibility is a two way street.

I am saying that WE are responsible for OUR reactions to their actions or words, both good and bad.

Yes, they can certainly add to our happiness, enhance it, but they can also challenge or take away that enhancement. But the core of our own personal happiness remains within OUR control, thus OUR responsibility...it is NOT their responsibility.

We can and should empathize with our mates, but empathy doesn't mean their problems, etc. take over our lives completely, that we take on the full responsibility for fixing their issues. That is called co-dependance.

Part of my W's mlc issues is that I placed too much of a burden on HER for MY happiness...ie, if she was unhappy, so was I. If she was unavailable for whatever reason, I "suffered". When she was depressed and not available, I was hurt and such, and she felt horrible that I was, adding to her depression, and starting a vicious circle. Her mlc has taught me the consequences of placing this burden on your loved one. This is the "stone" I was referring to.

She is responsible for the things she has said and done to me, the family, herself. As I am for mine.

She is responsible for making any amends, if she CHOOSES to. As I am for mine.

If she doesn't choose to repair the damage, that choice is her responsibility, BUT, I am responsible for how that affects me.

If I stay in poor me victim mode, it's not her problem or responsibility, it's mine.

If I learn, grow, recover and end up better than before, yup, it's mine, not hers.

I love my W dearly, therefore, I am not going to burden her with "making" me happy anymore. I will take care of that myself, giving her more space and energy to enhance, add to it, if she chooses.

If she doesn't choose, I will miss (and have missed) the enhancements, of course...but, I will use that space to meet my own needs.

Well, guess that's enough philosophizing today, lol.

Quote:

I placed too much of a burden on HER for MY happiness...ie, if she was unhappy, so was I. If she was unavailable for whatever reason, I "suffered". When she was depressed and not available, I was hurt and such, and she felt horrible that I was, adding to her depression

I too was guilty of this personality, probably still am just not as strong, I'm learning everyday.

But, I had to learn that this was even a problem, because in our happy R this was a non-excitant issue. It was brought to surface once I felt the pull of separation, once I felt threatened and went into crazy, he has to love me, what's wrong with me mode!

Thank goodness for time, time to learn, heal, and grow!

sorry man- i had a bit of an insight yesterday about possibly having "not got" what you were getting at. i was totally off on a wrong tangent.

when i read what you said about your reaction to her feelings, etc.- i see myself too. mind you- part of me wants to say tho- that she chose you. that is what she wanted (at some point) - then it becomes a burden somehow. bad form.

he knew what I wanted from life/r & plunged in anyway- just because he gets to delude himself now and rewrite history- doesn't make it fact.

part of me feels that too. I do understand what you said and agree i can see it that way. I get accepting things for what they are- i think. i still get stuck with the bit of - if you are the person SHE CHOSE, knowing how you felt and how you "were" - what the heck? do they get to have the right to expect you to be someone-something different? is loving the way you did something you now have to change to please them? I'VE GOT THAT WRONG again, don't I??? i know i'm looking at this all from some unproductive angle-

How does one choose a human being to be with -knowing what and who they are- loving that about them - then get tired of it and burdened by the thing they sought and get to say, oh well, i'm done here - this is a bore now?.???

i thought (get the past tense) that love was taking what comes and making yourself adjust - no matter what. thick & thin? just my slant and my m.o. i've gotten used to things i never thought i could - i'm stuck here with the cheating & lying tho- don't think i want to get used to that. time to change the habit of a lifetime and trouble implementing it.

you know: good ole shakespeare - "love is not love which alters when alteration finds". i think i've been living in a stinking cheesy novel or something for the past 61 years. I do agree it's My outlook & me allowing it to do this to me.

i swear - i am trying to fight it best i can. i am not a victim- I am not quite as pholosophically "mature" about it as you. i think i've got some acceptance now- i am not railing with he why & how could he? junk. philosophically i am searching for some answer - i'm not even sure of the question.

maybe something like - do we all deserve to be loved for what and who we are- without having to primp up and try to be something we're not for someone else. (something "better")??? i've always just been me- i've always allowed h to be what he is- (i probably have not fully understood what he is - mores the pity)

I know i must be fighting the death of alot of fond notions i had about love, commitment, people - you name it. this thing is dragging down (trying to) & away allllll my beliefs I held dear- and i don't actually have stuff to replace them with.

you express it well- i can see my changed reactions. i can see i don't get so "wounded" and surprised. nothing seems to surprise me now- i feel a wave of sadness or "defeat" now & then- i feel insulted & want out- i don't do it tho. i am lousy at strategy- i can only manage to think i will endure til i can't any longer & i'll just go away. .

this morning i think maybe i've got the entire "thing" wrong- maybe he's just a man that cheats & lies and I never saw that side of him - (maybe what i loved was my own mental fabrication?) i am rooting around trying to figure out why he is in my life still and why i'm here. intellectually i think it's got to just end and disappear. apparently he's going to make that my job...

i know I am becoming more fortified (daily) emotionally & awaiting the day i wake up and feel no tie to hold me here at all -

thanks for the philosophising- it does help me form new philosophy & of course, i need to - work in progress

I know, right??? it's me too - thing is tho, for me anyway- this began to be "a problem" in our r when he quit smoking & began computer obsession & ow obsession - what the heck do i have here??? i don't know really -

maybe it's not mlc at all (when i read the blurb in book it seemed to fit to a T) - but i never did go inspect the cheating spouse part. maybe i've got it all wrong- have done everything wrong- and his lessening of hostility is just a guy doing exactly what the heck he wants.

REAL ISSUE THO- if he's cheated & lied forever (it would seem so- to one extent or another) what did i have that i even want back? i can't find it- more lies? a man who was soemthing i never knew & never saw & find unacceptible? how to winkle out the (what?) tie (caring? love? not sure) that still binds me- and just get the hell free of it and him

he was cranked out yesterday- snapped about something - and i realize how close to the very edge i am with patience with his bad treatment. i can endure it for my own agenda- but really- my heart turns off immediately. i don't want to hear it- i don't want to feel it - i do not feel hurt by it- i just turn off. i hate to see myself being soooo separate- i am becoming it tho.

i think he's mistaken in his course in life- i can't save him or change it- and i may not want to know about it at some point. much as i hate the thought of aloneness- i hate this separateness in my face-

oh well- it made me blue-ish last nite- but HUGE step forward here-h ave slept for last week at least without tv on all night to dull me into sleep- and have gotten enough sleep on my own- not even sleeping pill. thisi s huge- am hoping i've turned some corner - short of blasting out of here-

part of me hates to see me getting all barnacled up and scabbed over and not feeling it all for him. sorry to see him push me this damn far so that i probably can't get back - i have felt it with my mother. at some point the critical and hurtful crap they say gets you to a point where nothing surprises you- their delusional rants & fancies are just their own insanity (of a sort) and i don't feel the judgtement. it's sad and sad. either my life is full of people getting wacky all of a sudden - or what if it's me? i don't want to be the wacky one.

when i listen to myself say that out loud- that both significant relationships in my life are with tough & emotionally cold & unavailable (in any conventional way) people- i wonder if it's me? (certanly my choice of mate) or them. why does it seem important to know? i'd say so i don't think i'm crazy.

will continue later-

What I discovered, looking back, is that I did not always do this:

Quote:

I did not do this for many, many years of our R. I think it started around 2006 or so. I think it started when I was going through my own mid-life transition (I job I hated with Fortune 50 company, money issues, W's ongoing depression, etc). I believe that is when my "state" became enmeshed with hers, looking to her for validation that I was successful (if she was happy), thus, if she was unhappy, I was NOT successful. Through this site and the challenging questions and concepts put forth by the posters, especially the vets, this "attachment" was shown to be false.

You know the old slogan "Question Authority"? Well, I got on the "Question Everything, especially about myself" kick, like when I was young and in college...had a great professor (who was an excellent teacher as well) who would drop statements and let us digest, question, get emotional over, and slowly dissect whether the were rooted in reality, or pre-programming or just an assumption or, whatever. I found it freeing, and fun, though sometimes painful, examining everything about me and my life, W and hers, and so forth.

So in that spirit, take what works for you...

T^2

Nero- so I take it you had a B-day yesterday - I'll say this (because of your post on my thread) "here's to your first B-day on the way to becoming independent, and happily living your life, your way, for you and maybe that someone who deserves you''!

Your right, a lot of the suburban mom's here (my age) are short and tubby, with their mini vans, and kids in grammer school still. But, your right they look happy and talking about the holiday's.

Here I drive up to in my (gotta say hot car) to watch the TGing pageant my D18 helps out in, I step out with my new "life stinks" swagger so I'm gonna at least look good, wearing leggings w/boots, contacts, and make up. Nice change from frumpy married me, and I was hated.

It's like married mom's can see that I'm not in the ''happily married club'' anymore, so back the F up and do not talk to my H.

So do I hang out with my single friend who goes down town and hangs out at coffee bars talking to everyone she comes across because she's social butterfly? That's not me either!

I can't go back, not sure were I'm at, gonna look ahead I guess to what I want.

Hi Nero - You sound so lost, I love the limbo reference...that's exactly were I was a few weeks back, and I totally backslid right into H's traps of spew and confirmation that he's gonna stay an a$$.

I posted like crazy just to keep my crying jag, and mouth in some of control. I gave him an open to spew and feel in control over the sitch and me.

Please, don't loose your cool. Don't talk to him...it's too easy to be lured.

From my experience, limited as it is, when this passes (about a week or 2) you will come out of this feeling really empowered and ready to not care what the jerk is off to. It's like you butterfly into the new lighter you that doesn't even want to care.

That's where I'm at and it feels great to realize after some time in the day, I haven't even thought of him or his sh!t! Thoughts of moving on, looking forward to that one day when I will love again are getting stronger within me.

Now don't gather from this that I'm all together, far from it, I'm just a little lighter and it makes all the difference. I don't know where, what, when about anything, I just know I'm not in a fog today and I love it!

I'm reading some awesome archives here about women who went on with their lives, not even wanting their H's and that's when HE realizes what's really happening and begins to pursue them. ONe women was adamant that she doesn't love her H anymore but the advise given her was to let him try to heal the R. She was really against him, her thread ended without a conclusion. I could never see mine doing that, I see mine as taking the blow and feeling he deserved it!

I am reaching a point where I wouldn't want him back, not like this, not like he was, so what, dipped in chocolate maybe, lol! I have higher goals for myself, and deserver to be loved, and treated with kindness, as do you! I pray not to backslide again, I never want to cry for him again, we are better than this!

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Now don't gather from this that I'm all together, far from it, I'm just a little lighter and it makes all the difference. I don't know where, what, when about anything, I just know I'm not in a fog today and I love it!

hiya- hey, "a little lighter" sure describes me today also. i swear- it's uncanny sometimes i come here and you echo what i'm feeling. i don't know a darn thing either- except my "fog" seems gone - mostly. my backsliding mainly consists of me agonizing in my brain or thinking in bed and it keeps me awake.

i am reminding myself continually to stfu (per t sq) and keep quiet. it's not as hard as it used to be - but alot of the time i find my brain's reaction is - "you're too tired to go there- you don't even care and there's nothing left to explain. it won't make a dent" - and it's what i honestly feel i guess- so I am finding it easier and easier to just not talk.

sometimes if i try to even think of a future- i get a bit panicked- thinking of it alone - ALLLLL ALONE - BUT THEN i try and remind myself how emotionally NOT there he's been for awhile- i guess i'll survive. (no real choice is there?) no one who will panic and jump out of bed if they get a call that i've been in an accident. that's kind of icky- but i try not to think of it.

took little sleeping pill last nite- so relatively normal (feeling) today.

today- i actually had a non-whining observation to make about me and my progress - i'm guessing it's alot of progress - since i don't feel awful all the time - and even feel a bit perky this a.m.

cool front came thru- so it's soo nice to not be sweating - yay.... i'm amazed to think how long i have felt awful from this sitch - years - how his actions, or non-actions have caused such pain. how oblivious to anyone's but his discomfort he is- etc...

when i consider how very very long-- he's allowed me to go around being such a fool - while he just lied & lied and said he was fine - i feel sorry to think of the waste (of both our time- life- love). i think i've maybe been having my own little mlc in response to the upheaval of my life. inever was one to sit around thinking what i wanted and needed to make me happy. i was alwasy happy feeling- and glad of it- but now, i find myself asking me do i want "this" forever- and so on.

like the lady you described- i don't think i love him in the same way as i did. i don't know if that's love dying altogether- i never ever thought it could - not true love. now i see it can be beaten to death (probably).

if you can't talk and be honest with each other tho- what the heck do you have"?? nothing and recipe for another disaster like this one. i am not running out the door- but i don't have hope about my sitch.

I've been doing my own thing and activities. - the other day he was commenting about my preferring a 3 year old to his company- something he's said fifty million times over our life. (tho, when asked seriously he's always said do what i want about having the kids around our house. ) so i've had them - babysat and enjoyed having them in my life in a signigficant way.

they all grew up hanging around here- cooking, arts & crafts, etc. I think my gal was (& is) just giving him more fuel for his fire - rather than adding to his interest. i cannot make the call- i am just about thru trying to figure and analyze his reactions & my actions. If i had an exciting expedition to the moon or a new business venture of my own - maybe that would peak his interest- being myself i don't think will.

It is sooooo easy to inspect myself and find bunches of things i could have done better or more righter. who is to say if it would have made any difference at all? i'm thinking maybe not. Like "saving" my sister from her alcoholism/self. could have done a million things different & better. in this sitch too - i have regret for every time i was unable to decipher the signs and info (scant & coded tho it was) and come up with the right thing. but i also don't think it was doable. if a worry wort - sensitive gal like me couldn't decipher it and get it rite- what hope would i have now? it would be forever more of the same- me trying and tryng and caring and for nothing.

HOWEVER - i'm getting better at shoving it out of my mind and not "making a decision" - or getting freaked out & pressured.

what will happen will happen i guess - there's kind of a release here in powerlessness and realizing it. maybe this is what it feels like when people can put it in the hands of God and feel okay with that. Maybe it's "giving up" - on the things you can't control or change. i don't know- I feel less embarassed by my failure than just "defeated " but okay with it.

i hopt i'm not just laying blame on other guy- BUT if someone doesn't love you enough to look inside you and them and find the ability to love or overlook or whatever - understand- then what the heck does anything matter??? if you are who you are - and they choose to see bad & put bad spin on - then it's just a black hole sucking you in, this business of thinking ANYTHING could have made a difference in the way they were going or heading.

REALLY- even if we work on our bad aspects- will perfection have anything at all (really) to do with whether they become un-blind to what they have? i think not-

don't know where that leaves us- i guess in the place everyone says of work on things about yourself you'd like to cahnge- not change FOR SOMEONE ELSE.

cripes - sorry - i'm rambling like mad - i'd better go sew soemthing . i didn't have a birthday by the way (i'm an aquarius) - the cake was just a generic one for someone's birthday in the bakery at our Publix - glommie big roses in icing- love that icing. disgust myself

anyway- you sound good too. we can do this- keep our traps shut- keep getting more emotionally scabbed over and hardened up a bit with regard to these guys.

today i'm only wondering about the future- not worrying- big diff. i'm going to try and hold that thought - everybody fingers crossed for a happy life huh?

i'm soooo used to being the guy making the feast for thanksgiving- i feel like it's a day off not having to think about it all. no silver to polish- yay- no cranberry sauce dish to find- yay- etc. only making stuffing. (tho will make a small feast for us here so we have leftovers foreer) - yay. I sure love to eat - gobble gobble (wel, oink really)

i'm outta here- hope your day is a good one-

xxo

one thing tho- when im in fl - and i look around this house at 35 years of "stuff" and of course, all the memories, and the friends & family down here- .

it is like looking up the side of a giant giant mountain- how to even begin "getting over" it. how to move this junk if i want to- how to forget my whole life, etc. how to determine if the entire thing needs to be flattened and eradicated, what to keep - what to toss - who to keep - who to toss? etc... wtf...

Glad to hear your feeling a little better. They really have pushed us to that I don't care phase, that IDLY phase or even like you. I feel like I have been riding this coaster with you down the exact same course.

How is it that every spouse here says the same scripted words and does the same actions. They are all teenagers again wanting their lives back, answer to know one, but yet don't really want to let us go 100 persent.

you sound like you have a good grip on doing this for yourself, better than I do. I'm going make a good TG with my kids and any drop bys that come over. My H can drop dead if he want to spend it on the street.

Really I don't know how I would react or at all. But, you know being a widow sounds easier than this, at least there's closer,

Oh God- you sure are rite. the closure is the killer. i just got a text - he's "running late" with his dad. what a load of lies this man is. i had some feeling of something- i was surprised to hear his dad other nite referring to their meeting - i'd assumed it WAS ALLLLL LIES.

honestly- i think ow is in town seeing her parents and is either meeting up with him- or somethign. that is my personal thought. i'm not allowing myself to envision it - yuchkkkkkkkkkk........ i know i'm not supposed to think about what he's doing- yeah rite. oh well- am endeavoring to not obsess- best of luck in the future .

AT THIS MOMENT- i cannot imagine how the heck i "don't speak" when he shows up- i'm going to try and just be somewhere else- maybe i'll take baby to park & library- and just not be there. how in the world he can look at himself in the mirror or even stand himself ( in general) - i do not know -

i'm thinking happy thanksgiving- i hate you- thank you & drive thru please.

will be a miracle if i keep my trap shut and don't tell him what a total pos he is. repeat after me- stfu - stfu -

like i need lies via text now- the wonders of technology.

OKAY- END OF RANT. I KNOW- IT'S pitiful sn't it???

I just - spent morning cooking with my sister & neice. it was pleasant - had some wine- laughed a bit. my sister was trying a new recipe and being sooooo careful over such goofy stuff- i finally couln't watch any more. for God's sake- it's an apple pie- it's not brain sur4gery???!!! it was more funny than anything else- but sooooo slow going and sooooo painful - - - just difficult to imagine cooking like that - or doing anything in the world soooooo carefully & painstakingly. yikes- can you tell i'm kind of person that adds stuff to recipes- tries it this way or that way and has tyrouble sticking to any recipe (exactly_)! .

oh well- poor woman- thank Goodness i don't live in that "land" - i'd explode

i don't know- i sure hope tomorrow i am calmed down and have a nice day- i'm going to if it kills me.

speaking of killing.... naw, just kidding. this jerk is definitely NOT worth going to jail for.

i haven't "got it together" at all unfortunately. don't we ALLLL WANT to have our youth & lives back??/ and who among us enjoys "answering" ao anyone !!!

i liked your comment about some woman who was letting her h try and fix the r , she'd given up and didn't want him.

hoping to reach that point (some day soon - some hyear soon ) (in the end!!!) - i'd love nothign more than to know someday he actually regrets it all - most of it- all of it, whatever.

i've thought about how easier it would be if he died too- the thing is - he wouldn't have chosen it. (unless suicide- but never ever would be - loves himself too much) - this business of him choosing to inflict this sort of pain upon me- rat that he is- is the problem. HE CHOoSEs IT - HE IS DEALING IT OUT- since i'm incredibly petty in this circumstance- i sure hope he pays like hell someday for it all.

oh yeah- not very good Christian attitude is it? oh well- i'm reserving the ritte to be an unreasonable b_tch here in rant-land - so i'm leaving it stand.

HOPE YOUR HOLIDAY is really nice and if you experience any unpleasantness - that it's small and "doable".

we can do this - rite??? . we can enjoy our holiday on some level- and not let these jerks bring us down (to their level) or in general. right???

now- i'm going to go play with this baby and not (i hope) think of this idiot - (oh no- i'm not doing very well with not calling names am i? oh well- not like you don't know me at my most petty and ratty) .

i'll do better after the holidays i'm sure (?).

keep the faith- and have a good thanksgiving. maybe later i'll have something intelligent to say and not so rantie.

i like your drop-dead-buddy outlook you have.

i'm going to keep that thought and work on it- wish me luck with the not talkign thing. i think i can, i think i can...chug chug . if i survive this nite without calling him a giant lying sack of (you know) it will be a miracle. (his favorite phrase by the way- sack of ...) how very appropriate. probably invented it with himself in mind.

oh man.....

Nero: thanks for writing on my thread.
Mom's are funny people and it seems from birth you are set with the relationship your going to have forever. She emailed me this morning after I sent a heart felt poured out email about loss love, hurt feelings, healing, and all she replied back was about money.

Growing up I likened her to Alexis. You ever watch Dallas, well she was a high powered money grubbing, make up wearing, high hair, suited women. She was all that and a horrible mother. That was how I saw my mom, no heart, cold, easy to discard people like paper cups. I always thought I was adopted cause I'm warm, eclectic, natural, and a gentle mom.

Oh well, she's not a source to turn to. So I wasn't blessed with great parents, my first love was broken by a tragedy, and my husband turned away. Thank God my kids have been my constant. I never really saw adults as the gateway through life, it was always kids, any kids, I'm known as momma D around here by such loving friends of my kids.

You say you love being with the babies, I can see why, they don't care about anything but kindness, and cookies help too. Next time your H says you spend more time with them then him, ask him just what does he think your relationship is. You would be happy to spend more time with him if he's recommitting and going to create an environment of healing.

Sorry, that just pissed me off that he said that, selfish narcissistic men who can do what they please and still expect to cake eat. I don't even know you and but I know that your time with a baby is precious enough to make a man love you, not get his underwear in a bundle over.

They write here to be the person he fell in love with, be someone he would be crazy to leave. I'm doing all that, and finding it good practice for a new, cause though he notices, it doesn't change squat! Nothing changes these men! YEa, there are good endings here, I don't see it for me though, you?

Ranting...I don't even know why...i'm not upset...I think I'm just not in the mood to sugar coat anything. I want to hang out with a man, I want to be in love, I want to hold hands, Christmas miracle anyone?

hey hi- happy post-tg-w-no-gunplay!

Hey Nero- I loved your post, I replyed. Hope your ride back to NJ is safe.

Omg, nero my mom is soo horrible she canceled Christmas because I don't live up to her need for attention. We were never close, we went 10yrs without talking. Through my marriage, kids births, and I still tried after 3 attempts over another 10yrs span.

That's why I was so close to h, he was my family of choice, and we made our own family never intruding on anyone, wholesome and true.

I have to db my mom just to keep from detaching from her also, hey I may become a pro at this!

I actually have more patients for h than mom because he has done more and loved me more than she ever did. My dad needs to remove her hand from up his butt so he can finally speak out with a real opinion.

Geeze, you said life is hard, amen.

Glad your home safe, your h is acting different from your first posts. He is phasing that's good, I think, at least maybe there's hope he's not just being a big jerk.

heyhi-

i thought i replied - but don't see it, so guess i didn't. i hear him on the steps (and the approach is from my back- so i paniked and got out quickly. i just don't even want him knowing about this place. if he did- he could find me- he is that "into" computers & all this covert spy junk. who needs that aggro?

anyway- i know, moms! i too had a very nice "family" going with h . i thought he'd always be there. he was such a total (kind of) recluse- as far as social life or friends outside of me.

stupid me- he had the office all day- no wonder he didn't wan anything more in evenings. tho, i worked too most of the time- so same here.

now that i'm here- i don't have much to say. got a tree- put it up but not decorated.

had a giant screamer w/ mom this morning. she came over early- totally looking for "action" - and any year now i'm going to remember this and "get it" and just not respond.

you're rite that i need to be dbing with her also. just stfu- and let her rip.

she was pulling out all the stops tho- after bashing me- telling me how wonderful my oder sister is - she even dragged my ex husband into it and how stupid i was to ever mrry him- oh man- is it any wonder i forget all my good intentions and start defending myself. then, of course- ka bammm-0 kaboom - etc.

cripes - you'd think i'd learn?!!! What, just because i stop what i'm doing to fix her tea- and sit and "entertain" her- can i be so nuts to think she'll quit complaining about everything in the world- complete with she came over for dinner last nite- but was complaining that we're not as pleasant and chatty in evewning as in the morning??? sooo- what? had a lousy time? company not as good as she'd like? i'm telling y0u- i wonder honestly if she has any idea what she says and how she says it?

oh well- took a sleepnig pill and feeling rested - so yay.

need to dig this owrkroom otu of junk so can make some christmas gifts- have the urge to make them this year.

have a couple things to mail from ebay- and some stuff to put away that brought from fla- so plenty to do.

ill get busy- just wanted to say hi.

AND NO, if i'm gonig to be honest (and i don't like it believe me) - i'd say we're gonna end up in the trash can. i don't think i'll be able to "do" this w/ ow around- i don't think h will realize how important i am to his life and his happiness til i'm long gone and probably close to hating the sight of him. he'l l push it and push it til i've had enough- and it'll be too darn late for me to ever feel anything for him again.

i'm hoping i'm wrong- i don't thijnk i am. like you, i want that Christmas miracle- i'm still working on "geting out there" more- have no interest in men thanks alot- but hopefully some day my revulsion will pass -

trust - for hm or anyone? it's anyone's call.

okay- now even tho i feel like it's going to be a dreary christmas- i'm thinking i'll get together some friends to make some ornaments of some kind- drink some wine- laugh- don't know what, who or anything. just an idea -

keeping a good thought and a good attitude today.

we have the rest of our lives to be wise and "together" - only hneed to float thru this day and be glad we're not in middle of a fight with our mothers ! oiy...

i guess that's the good news - it's over and not likely to occur again today - fingers crossed.

it's sunny and i'm going to rake- tidy front curb and check out the lights and see if any light out there-

xxoo ((( ))) we can do this together- it's true.

have a good day.

Nero- this is what I wrote my mom:
People are who they are and you except them because their family, good friends, good people, because despite their short comings, there is an overall reason to have them in your life.

Sorry, but I don't have room for her judgement when she offers nothing to lift a finger and was the result of some of the things she complains about. Oh, and she still to this day, hates that I was a stay home mom!

I would rather deal w/h I can tell him to go to hell and he would ask, when!

I know you can't trust your h, he may never earn that again. But, one day you will find that others don't have to pay for his mistakes.

Every pot has a lid, I think mine flew out the kitchen window, but I'm going to get one that fits eventually, and so will you.

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People are who they are and you except them because their family, good friends, good people, because despite their short comings, there is an overall reason to have them in your life.

i feel like that too. my mother doesn't get it. she's unable or unwilling to grasp the concept. if i had to guess- she's soooo used to venting and using her kids as listening devices (i'm not saying people for a reason) - the she's unable to treat us like normal people deserving of courtesy or even just neutral interaction. it's all about "getting a rise" out of some poor sap and then blaming them. i think it's amazingly satisfactory for her as a mother because she of all people can really hurt someone (of us) - and does.

i get it she might need to feel some "power" now that she's ancient and invisible in the eyes of society. not my problem tho- she's managing to aleinate the very only few people who give a darn and stop by. i'm the only one really that she EVER sees. if i didn't call in a day- she wouldn't use her voice- how sad and icky is that????? YET - she feuds with my younger sister here in town. she's nuts to be going down this road- one of these days i'll throw in the towel too- it's too hard to have to fight fight fight and defend oneself.

i've been trying db with her also- as you said- but it's slow going and i need to get out some book and remind myself every single morning where i'm heading with it all. she just knows the buttons to push- and doesn't hesitate. she had a resounding success day before yesterday- actually made me cry and hasn't done that in several years. i was so surprised ( i always am- am i nuts or what???) at her stinking attack- she even threw in (like your mom or what?) that i was like the hated grandmother & sat on my butt forever being a bum because i haven't worked for past 10 or so years- and that i never worked as hard as everyone else (duhhh- what about those 25 years as a legal secretary?) gone apparently in her old head- then she got going about my ex husband and what a jerk i was to marry him- oh man- she pulled out all the stops. I swear - she resents me and hates me probably because I "haven't had it as hard as her" - i mean, how wierd, i'm her kid and i always thought mothers are supposed to want their kids to have it easier than them??? not her maybe- she wants every one to suffer badly and know how bad she feels, etc.

it doesn't sound so bad when i'm saying it to you - i don't know how the heck i could be surprised when she rips my head off for no reason- one would htink i'd be on my guard at all times. i guess i didn't serve her her tea quick enough or something- or use the right china. i am such a sap and a stinking doormat to her- it's quite icky . i feel icky and feel bad about myself and what the heck makes me not stay on my guard more - I just forget and don't think about it- and then there she is , and i'm making tea and finding something to eat- and she's sharpening her claws!!! i need to really really get tough here and MAKE BOUNDARIES. SOMEHOW.

what is it with these women????

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Oh, and she still to this day, hates that I was a stay home mom!

i know- jealous of one's daughter- how sad isn't it? what does she care by the way?

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I know you can't trust your h, he may never earn that again. But, one day you will find that others don't have to pay for his mistakes.

I hope you are right - and i don't "go there". found myself in the post office speculating about a ebay buyer- and being kind of negative - and had to stop and un-say it. i do not want to be like that(this) - suspicious and so forth. it's awful and i have a notion that if you let it go- it could swallow you whole. helllllppppp..... how the heck to safeguard one's "spirit" from misfortune that makes it feel the need to cover up and keep safe inside. don't know. am trying to watch what i say and feel and think. need to nip this all in the bud.

true about H tho, it all boils down to - lying - instead of just communicating or being honest. how to trust or believe in the intrinsic "goodness" of a person once you've found out they are a bit fat liar? or even that they are soooo self-serving that nobody comes first - not me - not no one- just him on his throne up there on mount olympus. a sad and sorry thought.

HEYYYY- I WANT A LID TOO! LOVE that mental picture. my "lid" blowing up and off and away!!! i hope you're rite and we all have a lid out there. what if he was my only "lid" and even tho he turned out to be a total rat- that was my only chance? i know it's negative and dopey- but realistically- there are so many people alone and searching- who is to even say we get second and third chances??? my mother - is very big on saying "3 strikes you're out" - about us all. isn't that crappy? i can remember her saying it to my younger sister- GOD - this woman never ever got the notion that you stand behind your kids and lend support.

she's more like you try and cointinually trip them to see if you can- then have a laugh at their stupidity when they don't see it coming next time. i can't believe im saying that - it's so ratty- but i think it's something like true. she's just got problems of her own i guess. i'm glad i never ever saw how petty & ratty she was- and i guess h too. maybe i've lived in my own dreamland for the past 60 years. a shame to find out now- i could have happily gone on thinking everyone was nice and i was happy for another bunch of years til i kick the bucket.

oh well- reality huh? gets you in the end.

okay = back to the ya4rd and some lights 'i'm putting up since it's nice and mild- they're fighting me every inch of the way- but will be perky in the dark. i like houses that are decorated. even if'i' m not feeling too darn perky- i can spruce up around here- maybe it will rub off.

i hope you're having a nice day- try and not let you momma get you down- some mothers are just unable to be what we think mothers are- oh well huh?

i'm soooo like you that my h was my family (& life. still don't know if that was good or bad- maybe it just has no classification- just who i am. was - oh well.

xxoo ((( ))) deck the halls with boughs of holly, fa la la la la, .....

nero - I so look forward to your colorful way of thinking. If I were a color I would be white, no real pizzaz but pure at heart.

My mom hasn't responded to my email (3 days) she and my dad promised they would learn to communicate instead of run away and not talk for another 3 or more yrs. They are 64yrs old, if they do that to me again, they will be facing their 80's without a child to care for them, then their goes my inheritance!

I love the house decorated too, and the outside my H said what if he doesn't want any sign of Christmas. I said too bad, scrooge!

H has 12 days off for the holidays, I am not looking forward to these days. I used to love this time for us to sleep in, stay up late, and be a family over board games.

I still can't believe some times that we are at this point in our R, I have to remind myself that were not in L anymore. But, when I look at him I see clearly that I wound't want him like this.

Hope your having a great day, and I bet your decorations look great!

Nero-So it happened my mom has stopped talking to me forever, again! Her reasoning was, get a job, divorce your H, and get him out of the house. When I responded with what does anything have to do with you, she said I was twisting everything to be her fault. Oh, well I can't miss what I really never had!

Hope your good with your H there, it make you quiet with him around. Can't wait to here how it's going for you!

hey hi-

oiyyyyyy!!!!! what a joke this is here. so much for me being "quiet". this a.m. we had a "go round" for awhile. i swear- it makes me exhausted. i'm lousy at it - i should shut up and stay that way- it just [censored] me in sometimes and then alllll my hard work (i thnk) is down the toilet.

not that i beg him to stay or anything like that- it's this damn no response to everything or anything i say (usually something small- computer problem related - ) and finally i ask if he's either hearing, has heard - has a comment- etc . his response was that it's soooooo obvious what i mean and am saying- there is no response from him required !!!???

what the hell do you do with someone like that???? cold &* hard in an argument. (maybe just across the board forever - who the heck can make this call???)

anyway- we've been going along rather peacefully- i find christmas season emotional since my dad died. don't kow why- wound isn't new- just notice that i'm too darn nostalgic about everything- and that is tht. i remain calm and am not wailing- but it's there. sappy commercials and shows make me cry- death counts on the news, etc.

oh well - shoot me huh?

ANYWAY- SO WE MANAGED to wrangle around- end without gunplay- but of course- his take is that I'm unreasonable and i can't let go in an artument and he is wonderful and i suck. pretty much- i'm distilling it.

every gripe he has about me- i can see and i say i do see it- and it's a valid gripe and i'll tryu. any comment i have about him- he lectures and agrues a bit about how it's not accurate - but we won't even go there. i just feel pretty like it's useless anymore. that being said- on way to airport he said two positive things- on purpose because one of the things i said to him is that not one thing out of his mouth EVER is positive. he feels compelled to share every singlt thing he finds wrong (and it's alot man) yet he cannot even bring himself to utter a neutral or positive word. (or so it feels). he even acknowledged that on a daily basis he knows there's alot of hard feelings bubbling below the surface.

well- thank you sooooo much. how sad that i even felt kind of grateful to just even know that one tiny bit he is AWARE of what the heck i'm "going thru" - here. that's me giving him a hell of alot of credit here also tho- im'not sure. BUT - it was a revelation that he is even aware i am a human being with feelings. (whether or not i'm entitled to be who i am and feel what i feeel- another matter. but hey, i'm not asking for the moon & stars here.

i'll write later- i've got to g0 see about my mother's car at repair place- mine is fixed, but it's darn cold out and her window won't go all the way u-p - always something isn't it??

anyway- for beter or worse- alone for next two weeks. woo hoo- what a festive season - alone- oh well. i'll just keep reminding myself at least no one is watching every move i make with an eye toward what's WRONG about it and me and so on. i'll be back later.

hope your day is okay- wow - 12 days and i sure feel your pain when you say it used to be such a happy time. i can still remember it too- even tho it was probably all my own delusion- oh well-

later scarlet.

xxoo ((( ))) keep decorating and trying to find the happiness in the teeny things- i'm working on that too. determined to make some wonderful and beautiful ornaments if it kills me. look t pinterest- wow- wonderful christmas ideas to die for... i'm soooo addicted to it-

hi lois-

i was just poking around in posts in my place here- and saw your note back awhile ago - not sure when - you said:

Quote:

I reach out to friends mostly via text to help with the loneliness and I'm trying to have people over more, especially in the evening and on weekends. Seems to help. Right now all men seem like Lucifer in disguise so I'm not looking for any comfort from one--but the need to connect with someone and feel nurtured, loved, understood is still there. Not sure how to duplicate that?

It got me wondering how you're doing now and what? is it any better? i findmyself on the very brink of wondring if I should be just taking the final step and getting right the heck out of my sitch. i've always til now thought it was letting go of the best part of my life- now i wonder if it was even real. i'm more detached- i'm lonely too - he goes away for 2-3 wks at a time to fl house- then comes up here but i feel he is unable to be his normal self with me now- he does not see it i think- but i do. he is less constrained & stiff with everyone else in the universe but me. undoubt4edly his guilt over ow - or his current "dislike" ofme? i don't know really- since we are not supposed to ask or talk bout r, or "go there"- and this man has never been forthcoming with info about what's going on inside him-

it seems hopeless and maybe impossible to make an INFORMED decision- i get thinking perhaps i should just do anything to do something- move some way- do SOMETHING rather than just sit around thinking how pointless it all feels.

anyway- have you achieved any "good place" in your midn or emotions? would be interested to hear how you're doing. well i hope-

tsq

i was rereading some old posts- your comments about putting a "stone around someone's neck- making them responsible for our happiness, etc.)

I am still wondering about this and trying to "see" myself and this R with complete neutrality. i've come to the unhappy conclusion that it is entirely likely this man has lied and "cheated" one way or another - forever. In retrospect- it would explain many tiny oddities that i blew by. i cannot "judge" my complete trust that enabled him.

so- i'm curious about your "take" - if i swallowed hook, line & sinker his "story" about himself & who he is for 35 yrs. and, find out now it wasn't true - wouldn't this mean there is not, nor ever has been, really, a r at all?

I can have happy memories til the cows come home- BUT if they were alllllll based on un-true-ness - then, really what do we have here? nothing- rite???

i'm more detached than 3ver- but contemplating exactly what it is i could find here - or with h - if it all was lies anyway. seems mighty like "nothing"...

since db spiel about mlc is don't ask - don't tell- and this gyy has NEVER been talkative about feelings - i have no new info - merely re-inspecting past thru new eyes (would that we could un-know what we discover huh?)

don't know if that made sense - any input welcome -

hey dawn-

whattya know? is h home for the 12 days yet-? is it going okay.

have you decorated? tree up? spirit okay?

i don't have much today- in a giant quandry about what the heck i am even doing here and still knowing this man.

when he's not here- i get lonely but i hate him too for making me so unhappy and turning out to be such a scam-artist for (well,??) forever??? - it's been a long long time and if it's all been a sham waaaay since before i even knew anything - what the heck am i doing not running right away??? . - nice huh?

this business of detaching- but then trying to figure out why you're not detaching to the point of totally throwing him out of my life - is a wierd one.

if i can detach and make myself not care (not completely there- still plugging away ) (tho, i do not see his face and feel the "pull" - sometimes i don't even want to look at his face when i know he's lied like forever) i feel less and less like i even know this man- and more and more like i imagined the entire nice guy.

he just used me to fill in a portion of his life while he worked. he fabricated that guy i loved - i guess- latched on to someone like me (homey - steady- loyal, etc.) to have a home til he retired and "got young" again.

if we can "detach" - then what is there to make us continue dbing and not just walk? i wonder. if i get to totally not care one darn bit what he's doing - if he's happy- etc., what exactly is it that i'm staying in his life for?

doi!!1

Hi Nero,

Quote:

so- i'm curious about your "take" - if i swallowed hook, line & sinker his "story" about himself & who he is for 35 yrs. and, find out now it wasn't true - wouldn't this mean there is not, nor ever has been, really, a r at all?

I can have happy memories til the cows come home- BUT if they were alllllll based on un-true-ness - then, really what do we have here? nothing- rite???

Well, always remember that the mlc'er re-writes everything about the R, themselves, who they were, who they are, who YOU were, who you are is changed to "fit in" with their current version of reality. In my case, I have 3 kids who are the truth reminders for Mom (she wouldn't accept it (or anything for that matter) from me for quite a while...lol). My W believed her re-writing, completely...she forgot the past, as it really was. She is beginning to remember the reality (both good and bad). So, time will tell.

Did you have a good marriage, good times? - Yes, from what you have written.

Are your memories valid? - Yes

Is it all meaningless? - NO

Let me use a example from my own life outside of this whole mlc/marriage/relationship thingy...

Growing up, I spent summers at my grandparents cabin in the woods, on a lake...a perfect way and place for a boy to grow up. When I think of my childhood, THAT is what I immediately think of. All my growing was there, all my strongest, most cherished memories are there.

As time rolled on and my grandparents died, my Mom and her sister couldn't agree on things and the cabin property was sold. Gone. When I look now via satellite images from the google, there is a mc-mansion "cabin" there now, instead of the quaint, simple cabin built in the 60's...so it is REALLY gone...but because it is gone, does that invalidate what was? The memories, what I learned, the physical cabin, everything, was it meaningless? Or does the meaning remain as long as I keep it alive in my heart and mind, while accepting that it has passed? Is it nothing then? WAS IT nothing THEN because it isn't NOW?

I think it was something then, and still is now, though it isn't accessible to me anymore. Make sense?

T^2

Nero,
I agree w/T that mlcers do rewrite history in a way that is "helpful" to them to validate how they feel about the lbs. The question becomes is what what we are remembering live or memorex. I suspect for all of us it was "live" and we all had good marriages. Sure, we all had ups and downs and made mistakes, but life is about learning and learning from those mistakes. There's not one marriage out there that is perfect the first day right down to the last day of our lives. So, take what they say w/a grain of salt and reach back into our memory and know that you lived the same exact life and you know exactly what transpired. Had your marriage been horrible, I can bet he wouldn't have stayed as long as he has.

His feelings and good memories are stuffed down for now, but there will come a time when they will resurface, one at a time. Right now, he's in crisis and depression and that combination of emotions will rule his head, heart and soul for a while.

Turn you focus on to you and your family. Allow God to work on him for a while.

I'll check back in to see how you are doing a bit later.

Before Cadet or someone else pops over here, you need to start a new thread...you've exceeded the 100 postings.

Quote:

whattya know? is h home for the 12 days yet-? is it going okay.

have you decorated? tree up? spirit okay?

i don't have much today- in a giant quandry about what the heck i am even doing here and still knowing this man

Nero - First, I'm so sorry I haven't written and just fell short of writing on my own thread.

No, my H hasn't started his 12 days home night and day yet, but the work is very slow keeping him home a lot more. It is going okay, he still leaves for night work, but I count on nothing!

My spirit for the holiday's is kinda shot, I don't have room for all that thinking about dinners and cookies, presents and lighting in my brain filled with the reality that I'm not were I want to be.

I will try today, D18 says no way are we not getting a tree, and I know I will feel bad if I don't make some of the treats they count on every year.

The best advise I have gotten repeatedly is to do nothing. There are no quick, or guaranteed answers to any of this. I have found that doing nothing somehow moves me forward into a natural direction at a speed I can mentally handle.

You are like me, "no sudden moves please" it rocks us to our core! So try to take this time he's gone, don't think about what he's doing, try to have a trigger thought that you can replace "h" thoughts with, something pleasant.

It gets easier as you practice...don't assume, don't think about his return, enjoy his absence. I know your alone, but at least you won't be going bonkers, and still be alone.

Your going to get past this, you know what to do for yourself, these days your smarter than when you first started. Your H [censored], yes were going to blame everything on him, he deserves it, but don't rethink your own history.

He [censored] now, when you were happy, you were happy and don't tarnish those memories or try to second guess what "he was really thinking''. You don't deserve to do that to yourself. Your not the one in MLC!

I will be back later, h is home, S24 needs heat in the back porch he decided to make a b-rm, and my D18 has a friends from Vegas over to go iceskating at lake Michigan winter festival. Nothing for me, but to organize their fun. YEa!

You got some good things to read here, should keep you busy!

((((((((nero)))))))))))

You are near Lake MI? The MI sides(LP/UP) or ?. The cabin I wrote of is near there....just curious as you might know the life of which I spoke, DM....

T^2

TSquareed2 - No, not MI side, suburbs of Il. drive down to Chicago for the holiday's makes it worth all the effort and cost to hang out there for a day.

Though I do love MI and have been often both up/lp, you can't go wrong!

Quote:

i findmyself on the very brink of wondring if I should be just taking the final step and getting right the heck out of my sitch

i think you should be doing everything possible for yourself, getting everything in order, and being prepared for life without H.

But, having said that I think it should be done for you, as a precaution, and also as moving on with your life "as if". Don't stay stagnant but don't do anything in the name of "backing away".

You sound like this is emotional instead of secure in your forward action. Lets face it you don't want H (as he is) maybe there's too much hurt to ever get past this anyway. We don't know...but we do know that YOU don't want to finalize your relationship, especially not in one fell swoop.

So, as much as you don't want him, is equally as much as you may. I still stick with do nothing about your R, let him go through his stages, as you are also going through your own phases. WE are not reactors, we are reliable, loving, steady girls, who don't really want everything to blow up in our face. DOn't pull a trigger your not prepared for.

I know were your at I told my H Sat. that I was moving out! Am I? I don't know! But, sorry to say, I am in a little more position to push h around, you have to be protective of what your H (BF) can do against you, especially since he is a L.

IN the end you want to be happy missy and your not getting it from him, but he's not uprooting you life so take advantage of this peaceful lull, this time you have to take care of the most important person around.

I can feel your pain in your writing, you will never be alone, we are here and you have friends, and crazy momma, a sister, and babies around you. DOn't ignore all that because of one persons absence. DOn't let him blind you to all you have!

oooxxx DM

Quote:

I can feel your pain in your writing, you will never be alone, we are here and you have friends, and crazy momma, a sister, and babies around you. DOn't ignore all that because of one persons absence. DOn't let him blind you to all you have!

hiya - as usual, you are rite i know- voice of reason. I am alot more fortunate than most in this sitch maybe - ( also- the "crazy momma" bit- it's true. she's totally on some wierd voyage of her own - ("yikes captain - the world is flat - we're going over the side" ) - kind of voyage. but i guess i haven't had her life & i'm not 88 and falling allover every other day, etc. - good news is she falls, but doesn't remember!!! don't even know what to think about that!

God knows i managed to select a mate alot like her. holy cow batman- i don't even have a thought about that either.

I got busy with christmas stuff- mailing a couple ebay things- etc and yesterday was okay. last nite i made several (get this) construction paper big santa with jointed A & L - tree w/ glitter & manger scene for my playmate greatneice in fla to hang on the wall. we've been doing a 5' peice of cord between two nails on the wall with whatever is the season's decorations hanging from it. it's funny- i even glued on cotton for fur- haven't done that since kindergarden probably. nothing like hairy fingertips with gluey-cotton- fuzz-residue allover them to cheer you up. i need to mail it today with some stickers & buttons or something she can further embellish with. she's a killer ... miss her alot.

mornings are my low point. nothin to do about that but just dive in and do it.

i have to read again and mull over responses from yesterday- it's such good stuff and i'm flattered to think you & tsq & snodderly came to the "rescue" also. I am thankful for some little guardian angels out there who swoop in to chuck some wisdom down on me - just when you take a bad turn and think it's dark and you're really lost - there's that little light up ahead to go towards.

Quote:

You sound like this is emotional instead of secure in your forward action. Lets face it you don't want H (as he is) maybe there's too much hurt to ever get past this anyway.

you're right- I told myself alllll day - don't talk - don't 'SAY" ANYTHING if he calls, etc. I didn't either - yay - one small step for mankind.

it's his darn admission that he and ow had a "thing" back 50 million years ago. he said not sex- but it casts an entirely new light on my entire life with him. i can think of times i was out of town- mom in hospital for 7 wks one time, etc. and he was "kind of strange" on phone - (i THOUGHT THEN: "he's a non-emotional sort of man & didn't feel comfortable or know what to say to make me feel bettr" ) (ME & MY "SPIN") - i would now bet you $$ that everytime i was EVER gone- he just availed himself of whatever Loooooove opportunities were around.

i know it's crazy to revisit that kind of past junk - BUT - what does it say about the man i thought i knew & the life & r i thought i/we had?????. that's the rub- what sort of person is this to lie forever and lie to me specifically to keep me dangling along in it all.

i'm over the amazement- shock & horror of knowing this has happened and i'm a lbs -

BUT - if his r with her has gone on 20 or 25 years? what have i EVER had - really. one has to wonder ....

i'm not big on "sharing" men- that's my huge stumbling block. I am a totally monogamous gal

i have residual feelings for him & a life together and he's my "rock" in life - well, was. now that i find my rock is below sea level alot of the time- what do i do with this information?

??????????????????????/ anybody ?????

I'm having a pretty busy social life up here - w/family & friends- but this one "concept" is throwing a monkey wrench into my gears with the dbing. WHAT THE HECK IS IT's implications? AND DOES IT MATTER - AND IS IT FATAL? On this I've got no perspective.

i'll throw in one kind of positive thing (i think) - he called to test a new cellphone he was jerking around with- then again. in 2nd call i asked a computer casual ? & in explaining he began to get himself all worked up and icky. and accurately- he was doing it to himself.

somehow i accidentally submitted the above post.

the end is that a little while later - he called back- apologized for being icky- asked if the computer "thing" was okay and we had a pleasant call.

it was nice because i got off the cranky call feeling like "go straight to H_ll buddy" - i'm not doing "that" anymore in life- at least my gut says it. that's my biggest change of heart/personality. no explanations, apologies or hurt feelings when he's curt & crappy - just total turn-off & dismissal & dislike. that's something - rite?

anyway- hope your morning is good - i'm back on my "no sudden moves" m.o. and thank you. i do want to be happy girl again.

xxoo ((( )))

hi tsq and tnx-

I really liked your "story". you made me think both of my own summers at mom's beach house - and my sister ( 1 yr younger) (irish-twin & excellent sidekick - that died 4 yrs ago.

the little charming cottage shorehouse is now surrounded w/ mcmansions- embroiled in a lawsuit to force sale - & TON of family crappola & discord. My sister's gone- she became an alcoholic & drank her self to death...

thing is- YOU ARE correct that my happy happy youthful memories of her and the shore are both little happy beacons in my past. I "GO THERE" first when i think back and it makes me laugh to remember the great times & escapades. so i hope i can keep my memories of happy times w/h in some pain-free place in my heart. (in the "end")

i can't still figure out who was "the real" her- my constant companion/friend or the broody, unhappy, reclusive woman??? i don't think i'll ever know- guess they both were. i have no place to go with that info - i cannot figure it out- or "lable it".

i'm happiest with things sorted- labled and filed away in their proper place. (yeah- i've learned last couple yrs that there are no "right" lables - in the filing cabinet of life. wah wah.. (too many years in law offices?)

(btw - she ALWAYS picked troubled men & stray dogs - she needed to save people & animals. if my h had just dumped my sorry booty 10 or 15 years ago (if that was his desire?!) she very probably would have "saved" me in this awful sitch- and that might have "saved her". i know- it's unproductive to think- but...)) timing - huh?

your story is making me think the shorehouse troubles & sister's death & story are 2 things mired in GOOD AND bad. never to be un-en-twangled. my brain usually does go to the good. so thanks for the jolt of realization there.

this h thing tho - if i can come to grips with the past- if people (I) honestly CAN learn to live with anything? do i WANT to live with a cheating man? i know it's not the time to make that ultimate choice. i don't know if we have "something" to hang onto or not- i can forget & forgive (i'm pretty sure) BUT - - - -. SO - do i consider this junk- or just STOP-IT and concentrate on not thinkng about anything at all til i even see where chips fall w/this guy?

whattya think?

can i - or do i want to "learn to live with" him screwing around allover the place - i'm not sure that's my cup of tea. if this is a HUGE part of his character,?.. and has been forever - now wtf???

your post & perspective helped immensely - i'm at some "gone" point-in-life where sister is GONE, (her & my best guy/brother friend died in car crash rite before she started to drink for real), SHORE house is on it's way out- mom is on her way out- H is on his way OUT??? - too many things in life that were MY LIFE are gone & going. i know, it's nothing i can control - things,people - GO... I'M TRYIN to be "a man" here and butch up- it's slow goin - this gettin TOUGH stuff. guess we all have to ride thru our PAIN and get used to it. crap!!!. i hate this real life junk.

sure wish i could cure all my own problems with some stupid affair that made ME feel all young & special and powerful again... if only it were THAT EASY -

thanks alot- could you live with a cheating spouse - knowing? and forever? i'm curious what people do endure & why & how

I do like (and need) love, affection & ta da - sex...
(real sex - even if boring - more than woo hoo- fakie new exciting sex)

i'm outt ahere- thanks for listening & commenting- i'm feelin a bit more "peaceful" rite now about the memories.

BUT- IF we can value the memories? - still don't "get" what we do about the things we've learned about our mate's character & the "real them"??? would we have fallen in love in the beginning if we'd known? probably not?...

now what.

xxo

hi and thanks.

i do sometimes remember to stop and ask myself WHY he's still here if not because he too has happy memories & "knows something" deep in his heart. I think that- then i'm not sure because he never can talk about his feelings and he apparently spouts the L word to anyone he's having sex with.

he's said he's not been "havin fun" for 10 yrs!!! if that is true- wtf??? what was he waiting for? was he ever going to speak up?

i'm hung up at moment about the sex (and time frames maybe) - i hate the idea of infidelity. i know sex loses it's "shine" a bit with long-time mate. i believe it's a mental thing- more than physical (almost). (tho certainly physical) - i waiver - - he's "thinking" she's his "solution" - i'm his "problem" .

now or then i think he could possibly regain his rite perspective on me and our r- - - - ( honestly the best thing ever in either of our lives) (if it even was what i thought it was...) stopping- yeah, i know..

then i realize maybe he never will - he's AFRAID (i think) of his past performance inabilities and will never have the courage to even try. (my big fear - is his big fear) i shove that thought away because - I believe it's mostly mental. for me, him or other people - then, i'm not sure. i need to stop thinking everyone n world is like me inside. obviously THEY ARE NOT.

i don't want to EVER be blind & unprepared again.

thanks for your insights - i keep thinking there's a "timeframe" and if i've only KNOWN for 1.5 yr - that's one thing. If he's been unhappy for TEN (for cripes sake!!!) - that's something else (we hope just spew?) - then i think about FOREVER cheating (even if only mental & not physical) - then i think my head will explode-

then i run away to here- then, then, then,....

KA POW- HEAD EXPLOSION...

Originally Posted By: snodderly

Before Cadet or someone else pops over here, you need to start a new thread...you've exceeded the 100 postings.

Do you know how to start a new thread and link them up?

I can help you do that if you are unsure.

First just pick a new title and start a new thread and I will add the links.

hi and sorry-

it all "gets away" from me- i'll go do it - i think i remember - and thanks for hooking it all up to old stuff.

Please start a new thread.
This one is being locked due to length.

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2306302#Post2306302