Hi all
Critical things seem to be happening in record speed. I posted my story in newcomers and MLC, got slammed, stepped back, calmed down and now here I am again.
H and I signed our separation agreement last week. It was uncomplicated because there are no kids and the only assets in both our names were a vehicle, a boat and the house. Marital debt was carried equally but independently. He keeps the vehicle, I keep the house and we sell the boat and split the debt. He's been out of the house for almost three months and in his own apartment about two weeks. I spoke briefly with the friend he's been staying with (who accidently called the house when trying to reach H), and he too was shocked by all of this. I am 100% certain this is MLC and now believe it began around the time we moved into our previous house, got married, and dealt with the illness and death of his father. This all happened within about a one year period, around three years ago. I believe now that our move 1.5 years ago (because he was frustrated that the front entrance of the hosue was to small) was a symptom of his increasing MLC agitation.
I have been validating, supportive, as positive as I can be, and GALing. I also know my role in the breakdown and where change is needed (as I see them) and am making those positive changes. We seldom see each other and communicate well via email once or twice a week, with him initiating 80% of the time. Most recently he emailed to tell me the doctor said his headaches aren't a sign of stroke but that he might have skin cancer but probably not. Perhaps i shouldn't read too much into him informing me of such personal things, although I did validate, support and wish him well.
H had been pushing for the separation agreement to be finalized, but left literally all the work to me. I had wanted him to do the work because this was his choice, but he didn't take action and instead was increasingly stressed and agitated about it all. I gave him what he wanted (the separation agreement) because I love him, but now that it's real it freaks me out.
The mortgage holder has issued a letter authorizing a lawyer to register the house title in my name, but it all seems so final. The boat is up for sale, and although he will make the payments for now, because I was a cosigner we will have to split the 10K debt left over. He has said there is absolutely no way he can carry the boat. I did put in the separation agreement that if he chooses to take full financial responsibility for the boat I would not seek compensation. If he weren't so adament about abandoning our marriage I would even help financially through the separation...that's how significant this is. But he must express this and convince me it's sincere before I make such an offer to him.
How do I navigate carrying out the separation agreement? Do I just go ahead with the house transfer and boat sale and keep on keeping on? The financial and life impact on him is major...I'm not sure he'll ever get on his feet now. I feel like I should somehow give him a ripcord, but in the spirit of DBing don't know how. Perhaps the ripcord is in Canadian law, which says that a three montn reconciliation prior to divorce nullifies any separation agreement, and that no matter whose name is on title, equity in the matrimonial home is shared by both parties. The boat is another story....that's the loss of his freedom to do his absolute most favourite thing in the world (fishing), and a nasty pile of debt that he can't afford.
Advice, insight and support from anybody who's been at what feels like the brink is welcome and encouraged.
H had been pushing for the separation agreement to be finalized, but left literally all the work to me. I had wanted him to do the work because this was his choice, but he didn't take action and instead was increasingly stressed and agitated about it all. I gave him what he wanted (the separation agreement) because I love him, but now that it's real it freaks me out.
First of all try to stick to one thread until 100 posts since it is easier to go back and see what has already been told to you.
Link to your first MLC thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...161#Post2197161Why are you doing his work in the divorce?
Giving him what he wants is not going to snap him out of this. It is just going to get you divorced.
If that is not what you want then I suggest you do a 180.
You must LET HIM GO, but that does not mean push him out the door.
Sometimes being STILL is a much better idea.
Most MLC'ers have trouble completing tasks, so the fact that he wants you to do it for him is part of the script. It makes you the guilty party instead of him.
You do need to protect yourself and I am not saying not to do that. But I am wondering if there is not a way to shove the ball back into his court and make him do the work.
Sorry you got slammed, but did you learn anything from that?
FTR divorce does not stop his MLC, and sometimes it is part of the process.
Have you read the resources that were on your last thread?
Did you have any questions?
Thanks, Cadet. I should have stuck to one thread...sorry, wasn't thinking.
I tried to be still, but he'd call me up sounding like he'd been bawling for hours, wanting to get the separation drafted, yet he'd never take any action. He was having headaches that went on for days, so his doc sent him to a stroke clinic. I guess I felt that he'd continue in this horrible pain until the agreement was drafted, and because I hated seeing him that way and he wasn't taking action I figured I had to.
I did learn things from the slamming and am much more calm and less analytical now. I'm just accepting things for what they are rather than asking "why?". And I did read the resources. Very informative and helpful. My friends and colleagues are astounded at how well I'm doing. I'm living and breathing DB as best as I can or know how. There's no anger, no bitterness directed at him even though this isn't what I want. I know divorce won't stop his MLC.
I too am wondering if there's a way to put the ball back in his court, which is the reason for this post. Will the following achieve this?
I absolutely will not file for divorce, and in Canada there must be a 1 year separation before a divorce can be granted so there's still nine months ahead of us.
I will not help him to navigate the process of getting my name of the vehicle registration.
I will not assist in selling or maintaining the boat.
I will not help him move the rest of his things out of the house.
These are things I will not do, but what specifically should I do at this point?
The house title transfer has to be completed (or not) by me. Do I go forward immediately, tell him that it's ready to go, wait and say nothing, something else?
I've read the "what to do during spouse's MLC" post, so I'm not looking for generalities, unless of course the answer is simply to keep doing (and not doing) the things listed.
thanks in advance
Had an email from H this afternoon. "Hi, did you get a chance to sign the separation agreement? Hopefully you're having a great day."
These emails frustrate me because they feel like he's slapping me with one hand and stroking me with the other. Surely he knows my days aren't great - he left me alone in a big house in the country with a basement that had to be insulated just as winter is coming on, but moving on...
How do I respond?
Do I simply say, "My day is going well, thanks for asking, and yes the separation agreement is signed"?
Or do I also take the opportunity to remind once more him that there are tasks he needs to complete (changing his contact info at the marina, sorting out the telephone/cable service)?
Do I tell him that the title transfer with the bank is complete and once I receive the letter I will be seeing a lawyer to finalize the process?
Do I ask him if his headaches are gone, if he's happy now that he's settled into his apartment?
Do I remind him that this is what he and he alone wants?
I came home to a hand writen letter of support from a very gentle aunt of mine and it put me in my sad place yet again.
Advice and guidance desperately wanted.
Thanks in advance
Personally I would not respond.
Or if I did respond it would be a one word answer.
YES - NO
Does it require an answer?
Thanks again, Cadet.
He probably should have a copy of the signed agreement, since it is a legal document. So I think it requires an answer, but maybe that answer can wait until tomorrow....
So seriously a one word answer? Will that not come across as hostile?
Hi GWN! Not sure if I've responded to any of your posts. I wouldn't reply to his email at all, if I were you. He will receive the signed copy which you went through all the trouble to organize (the SA, I mean). MLCers like to do that hard/soft thing. It helps them feel less guilt if they're being nice-ish to their LBSers. See it for what it is, then ignore it ... don't respond. Now is the time, IMHO, to go as dark as possible. It will help you to detach. Don't even take his calls or answer texts/emails. He wanted to be separated ... now, he can see what that feels like. This will also be a chance for you to GAL. Hang out with friends (you be the fun one that gets the friends in the separation) as much as possible. Let them tell him what you're doing. I think this is called the Last Resort Technique (LRT).
Take care.
Thanks, BeingMe. I'm the only one who has the signed agreement, so I'll have to get it to him. I do have it electronically, so maybe I'll just email him that (only the attachment, no text) and then pull the blinds.
I don't think I chimed in very much.
For what it's worth, I don't see why, if this isn't what you wanted, you should do the work of the divorce. I don't see that helping anyone. He chose it. He chooses whether or not it's painful. Those are not your choices and by doing the work for him, you short circuit his process.
If you are doing it for you that's different. But if you are doing it so you don't see him suffer, then I think you should re-evaluate your actions.
My $0.04
GWN,
MLCers become great manipulators and know just what buttons to push to get you to respond. If he wants the divorce, then he will need to do the necessary work to get it. Take care of the home issue, as for the rest, step back and allow him to do the work.
I had to chuckle when I read about his headaches and health issues. The headaches are from the stress and guilt that he's put upon himself. Also, he's using it as a card for sympathy and is hoping that you will feel sorry for him....don't.
Your h is doing all of the typical things that mlcers do...I would take care of "me" and allow him to figure out what he needs to do in order to take care of himself. Don't be in too big of a rush to rescue him. He's a big boy and trust me, he can take care of himself. I would make sure that his name is off of everything that you have in your possession and go from there.
Don't be too hasty in responding to his emails or phone calls. He needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around him and that you have a life to live.
Thanks, AJM. I wish I thought this through or had this advice before drafting the separation agreement. All I can do now is not make the same mistake. He will have to do all the other things.
From what I understand, if he has an accident and my name is on the vehicle my insurance will go up. I am concerned about that.
He has also decided to bundle his new cell phone with the home phone/tv. Either I pay the whole bill or shut off the service and go without because it's a three year contract and where I live there are no other service providers, or contact him every month to tell him what he owes. Major pain in the butt.
I absolutely will not be filing for divorce at any time or participating in the process. It would be a desk divorce (I think that's what they're called, no hearing, just a judge signature) and a non-response from me has the same outcom at joint filing but will send H a message. Still nine months before that possibility at any rate.
He seems to be doing stupid things that keep (or try to) drawing me into the web. There's almost always some kind of impact on me, which makes it harder to just ignore it. I have told him before to knock it off but he persists.
Cadet mentioned that often MLCers can't complete tasks, and I'm sure that has something to do with it. And I took care of all the bills, etc, during our marriage so that probably also contributes. But he's managed to sort out a bunch of other stuff...why not the rest of it? JUST VENTING...I know there's no reason, my questions are more rhetorical. It doesn't matter why, just give it up for crying out loud.
Anyway, I really don't know how to do this. I have never in my life even known anybody who has been divorced. It's a foreign concept and a very long, dark road road.I'm reading lots of books and learning a lot but all these little annoyances trip me up.
Here's a thought I'd love feedback on. H and I don't have any kids so once all ties are cut there will be no need for contact. He abandoned all our friends (including his summer and winter fishing buddy) when he abandoned me, so there is no forseeable way that he would see any of the changes in me.
Is it possible to use communication about these annoyances as opportunities to DB. How would I do that?
GWN,
Have your name removed from the vehicle and off the insurance policy. Notify your insurance policy holder and advise them of your situation and have them set you up with your own policy.
Call your service provider and advise them that he is not living in the home and that you wish to set up your own account. You do not need to pay the whole bill or contact him. This is his way of controlling the situation and keeping you on a string. Cut the string. You are not his mother and are not responsible for contacting him about what he owes.
What about joint accounts and credit cards? Utilities?
Mlcers will take care of things that interest them at that moment. Separation/divorce papers will tend to take a lot of time because they drag their feet. Separating finances will be the same way. Why? Because they want us to do the work for them so that they can say we did it to them.
I don't have children either, but I can assure you that if you go w/no contact, you will be better off. I wouldn't contact him about anything unless you had an emergency. The less contact you have w/him, the better/stronger you will get. You need this time to focus on you, your health and your finances w/o any distractions that he will create.
Thanks, Snodderly. It's funny...the people around me have said the same as you. I guess I'm getting pretty sage advice, but from a different vantage point. They don't know I'm DBing because they are furious about this and would question my sanity.
I'm going to put all this insight together and take care of the house/financial issues in as positive a manner as possible. I'll call my insurance agent about my name being on his vehicle. It's really the most important piece. The house title transfer is done. I'm now just waiting on a letter from the bank underwriter and then I'll have a lawyer register the change. Good times.
I've decided that I'll only deal with him via email on Mondays, and only if absolutely necessary.
On a happy note, I had my first snow day last week and managed to use the snowblower without incident. Friends have come out to help me winterize the ride on mower, pitch in on the basement framing and insulating, and do other little things. I'll get a bunch more done today with a little help from my friends, followed by a nice lunch I'll make using farm fresh eggs from the chickens I had to give to a neighbour down the road when H left.
The sun is shining through the cracks.
The changes that you make are for YOU.
Not to win him back.
So don't worry about whether he SEE's them or not.
It is not important in the way this works.
Figuring out what to change is a life long event.
Take it slow and as time goes along you will figure out what you need to do.
You are not changing for anyone else but YOU.
SO be happy with your changes, live them and they will be real.
Read what Snodderly said above it is very wise.
Thanks again, Snodderly.
Fortunately the only joint items were boat, house and one vehicle. There's one joint account to pay for these things. I'll move the house payment to my account this week. The boat and insurance will have to stay put until the vehicle is resolved and the boat sold. I just don't trust him to stay on top of it so I need to moniter. That being said, he's made all the payments up to now. No joint credit cards, thanks goodness. I'll call the service provider tomorrow, too, to see what my options are.
Thanks for chiming in.
GWN,
I traveled the road that you are on many years ago...
As Cadet has pointed out, any changes that you make are for YOU. The changes will need to be permanent and ones that you are happy with.
You will be amazed at the number of people who will be there to assist you as you walk this path of mlc. You are not alone and you do not need to justify your actions to anyone but yourself. Trying to explain the db techniques to others will just frustrate them as they have not walked in your shoes. Come here and we'll help you navigate the path and the potholes along the way.
I'm happy to see that you have some things planned for today. Now is the time to pull out that list of items that you've put on the back burner and see if there are any items that you can begin in the next few days.
You've got a good head start on your finances. Please listen to the advice that the posters have and will continue to provide to you. Take what advice you can use and chuck the rest for the time being. Each situation is a little bit different, based on the MLCer's personality and childhood. However, I can assure you that the Mother Ship provides each mlcer a copy of the Hndbook on MLC and they all follow the script that is written in that handbook.
GWN, please take care of yourself. The stress of the situation will take its toll on you. Get plenty of sleep, be sure to eat properly and most of all be kind to yourself.
Had a great day yesterday. Friends helped me with some things, including moving my treadmill up from the construction site that is the basement. Now I'll be able to get back at regular exercise. It was actually a great weekend overall. Now if only the grief hangover that is exhaustion would resolve....
Sent the separation agreemtent to H in an email today...no friendly chit chat, just the attachment. He replied asking when he could come pick up his copy of the agreement, meaning the original I suppose. I personally don't think he needs it, since I was able to get the title on the house changed with an electronic copy.
So, my questions...
Do I ignore his email and let him figure it out?
Do I give him a time to come get his original?
Do I get into a email discussion with him about the electronic copy being good enough for now?
My impulse would be option three, but I really don't want to communicate with him right now. I already told him that when I see him all the pain comes back. It would be great if he respected that.
I don't want to be mean because it's not in my nature, but I'm getting tired of all the "white noise" sort of interaction. Maybe I need to just sit down with him for an hour and hash out the remaining annoyances, but I suspect that his pings will continue regardless.
A 180 for me would be to actually communicate about the way I'm feeling as it was not our strong point (part of the problem and my contribution to it). But my deep seated fear is that he will immediately reject anything I have to say and me in the process. That fear of rejection runs very deep in me and has helped me to go dark and not pursue.... relatively easily from what I've read from other people's stories. AND I wouldn't want to be construed as pushing/pursuing right now.
Advice?
Don't pursue.
Communications = Pursuit.
No texting, talking or anything else.
Let you actions speak louder than your words.
Keep hand over mouth with eyes and ears open.
Gotcha....ignore his request and let him figure it out himself.
I'll chime in again when he calls or emails in an agitated state, at the very least so that you good people can rein me in and tell me I have nothing to feel bad about.
Thanks again, Cadet. Hand is firmly over my mouth. Now where did I put that duck tape????
Just an aside ...
IMHO, once they leave, it's not the time for 180's. It's more LRT time (detach, go dark, GAL, don't always reply to emails, or answer his calls, etc). I cannot imagine that you were that bad a wife for this reaction of his, so the 180's will not be effective. He will, in fact, say it's too late, so why give him the chance. He has no justification, but he will give it a good shot.
Take care.
Thanks, BeingMe.
I don't think I was a bad wife at all. Sure, our marriage wasn't perfect and in hindsight I should have done some things differently, but a bad wife...no, which makes this all the harder. We had a good life and seemed so well suited, but I guess he simply wasn't as committed as me.
I talked to a lawyer today about registering the title change, and sadly H has to sign the paperwork so I had to contact him. Kept the email to business only, which was the best I could do. Maybe I can get all the loose ends dealt with in one fell swoop.
Sigh...the Christmas music in the stores is kind of depressing this year.
Hey there fellow canuck!
Couldn't the lawyer have contacted him or mailed it for signature?
Where do you stand with the vehicle? I used to sell insurance so that one scares me ... you are right, if your name is on the title and he gets in an accident they can come after you.
Does he need a copy of the SA with your signature? If so I wouldn't communicate with him or have him come over, just mail one.
Keep up the good work with your house and friends ... exercise helps a great deal! So does accomplishing things without him
Peace
PEI
Hey PEI!
Yes, the lawyer could have, but I don't want to be paying a lawyer $300 and hour for doing such things. After talking to the insurance folks I've realized I have to navigate things with him anyway...there's no getting out of it.
From what I know he still hasn't moved to get my name of his vehicle. I know what he has to do, but from what I can tell he doesn't...unless he's figured it out by now.
I've always been really independent. Lived alone for five years before meeting H and have always accomplished a lot solo. I'm almost finished framing and insulating the basement, a project that started just before he bolted.
He told me he didn't feel needed. I guess I just needed him in ways that weren't important to him...to be there for me, to love me, to build a life with me, to share our home and all its responsibiities. OW, I guess, pandered to his ego and needed to be rescued, needed him in an overt way. I'm 100% certain it will get old and tired because I know H and his need for space.
I dreamed about him last night. Me, H's mother and his daughter were driving down a highway in a 1980s sedan when the cops pulled us over and arrested him...took him away. The three of us tried to keep going in the car when other cops said no, that's evidence, you can't take the car. Then I woke up. Weird. I'm sure it's symbolic.
Ah, well, it's all in the past. Time to hit the treadmill.
He told me he didn't feel needed. I guess I just needed him in ways that weren't important to him...to be there for me, to love me, to build a life with me, to share our home and all its responsibiities. OW, I guess, pandered to his ego and needed to be rescued, needed him in an overt way. I'm 100% certain it will get old and tired because I know H and his need for space.
OMG! You sound like my twin. Are we married to the same man? So many of us sound as if we are all married to the same guy.
Yep me too. My H married an independent and self-sufficient adult, but now seems fascinated by women who need help plugging in their computers.
Had a reply from H. He wants to come out to get the separation agreement on Friday evening. Said nothing about the house transfer. Not sure if I should ask him about it.
Talked to my insurance provider too. H needs to sign a release from the vehicle and house insurance.
So three documents to sign and one to pick up. I have none of the three for signature yet. I'll probably have to sign something for the vehicle transfer.
It feels like I'm dragging this along, when it's not even what I want. I shouldn't communicate with H, but I can't protect myself without communicating or without doing all the things outlined in the separation agreement.
If I'm doing all these things, am I giving the impression that this is what I want?
I don't know what to do. Or how to do it.
Just that minute got the email from the insurance company. I'll just flip it to H I guess, have the insurance company tell him he needs to act now rather than me.
Right course of action?
Can't you mail him the separation agreement? Yes, I would have the insurance company deal directly with him, but notify you when the signatures have been obtained.
Stop worrying about how he "perceives" your actions. Do what you need to do to protect yourself and then go live your life.
Peace
PEI
Thanks PEI. I could use a bit of salt air right about now. I'm from the east coast too.
It just hurts so much and I know any one action on my part won't chang a thing but I'm scared. I try to be intellectual about it all, the path he's chosen is a result of or part of his crisis. I try to be philosophical, the reason I've been put on this journey will one day be revealed, as my mother in law said "there are good things in yo8ur future". But the emotion just takes over. It's so incredibly sad. Driving 40 minutes everyday to get to an empty house on a dark rural road is hard now...I can't imagine how winter will be. At least the snow will reflect the moonlight.
I spent much of the last 24 hours in tears and want it to stop.
lyrics from a song I love come to mind...
Sorry this is it
It's cold and dark and badly lit
And there's no backing out of it
I wish I could clear my mind and find something positive to focus on.
I wish I could clear my mind and find something positive to focus on.
Do you? I found there were times I wanted to wallow in it. Because it was familiar ... being happy or positive in the midst of the situation wasn't comfortable at first.
IMO, you have the sentiment backwards ... think in terms of solutions ... feelings follow action ...
Try this on "If I focus on something positive, it will help me clear my mind..."
What do you have to be grateful for right now?
Thanks for your frankness, PEI.
I hadn't thought about the familiarity thing, the wallowing, although I have asked myself whether I'm just full of self pity and need to get over it already.
You're right about feelings following actions....a bit of a twist on fake it 'til you make it.
I'm going to leave the separation agreement in the mailbox and have asked H to have all the paperwork for the vehicle transfer done so that we can sign everything at once and be done.
What I have to be grateful for.... my beautiful neice who will, along with her parents, be spending Christmas at my house; my other beautiful neice and nephews and their parents, who will join us; my sister motivating me by saying we MUST have a tree; the trip to Cuba we're planning for Easter; a job that pays me well enough that i don't have financial insecurity; a boss and close friends who care enough to drive up to 30 minutes to console me during the roughest times; my fantastic cat...
I could go on. You're right, PEI, to point me in the direction of the good things in my life. I think the sorrow has passed for now. One day at a time, right?
Absolutely. And when necessary ... one hour at a time ...
My 4 yo niece died two and a half years ago, it was the most gut wrenching experience of my life, watching my baby sister bury her baby. I swore to myself then, and had to refind that resolve during my own breakup, that when I get really low I would always turn to gratitude for what I have in my life.
I am damn lucky. And I know it.
Glad it helped.
Peace,
PEI
I hadn't thought about the familiarity thing, the wallowing, although I have asked myself whether I'm just full of self pity and need to get over it already.
Sometimes though, I think it is ok to stop experience what you are feeling. Not dwelling on it, but taking the time to process the emotion of it all. If you are too quick to push aside the pain and hurt and act like all is ok I think you may miss the lessons God wants to teach you through this process. Because as our spouse's travel their journey, we are to travel ours as well.
IMO, not sometimes ... always. You have to feel it, experience it and then when you are ready ... shed it. Most dwell though. At least for a while. I'm not advocating "acting" like all is ok ... I'm talking about realizing though gratitude that maybe it's not as bleak as it first felt.
I'm not a religious person, but I am all about the lessons this journey teaches us. Two of them, IMO, are gratitude and perspective
Peace
PEI
PEI, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your neice. I can't imagine losing any of those kids. I lost my brother due to medical complications at the age of 29 just over six years ago. It was sudden but not unexpected and absolutely tore me apart. The feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop with H (finding out about OW) was the same as the feeling I had for the last ten years of my brother's life, waiting for it to end. Knowing the final blow was coming, but not knowing when or how. I think that's part of the reason I have such low lows. I learned a lot about myself and what I wanted in life after that loss, and changed a great deal. It's part of the reason I chose H, or who he was at that time, or who I thought he was. I knew when I met H that he and my brother would have gotten along incredibly well. They seemed to have a similar disposition and both enjoyed a cigar and a scotch.
My mom and sisters have asked me since the split what they think my brother would have said. I know he'd have been disgusted but implored me to fight for our relationship because that's something he really wanted in life but never got to experience. C'est la vie, I suppose. H has a number of t-shirts that belonged to my brother I want them back because H doesn't deserve to have them now. But then I questions whether that's a loss I should cut. No, I don't think it is. I need them, my brother, with me.
Last night H replied to my email about leaving the separation agreement in the mailbox and getting the vehicle transfer done.
He said "please don't think I'm doing anything on purpose to hurt you. My head is also spinning from this" and "I hope you are OK, it's never good to hear you're not in a good place". I had told him, very directly, that I'm not in a good place right now, and to get these things done ASAP.
Another email this morning telling me he'd be out to get the agreement but wouldn't bother me, would try to have the vehicle transfer done by next friday, and "cancelled the life insurance I had taken out in case I died so the house would be covered." It's the reference to dying that stood out. I'm sitting that alongside the stroke and skin cancer things from before, a la MLC.
I know I shouldn't, but I tend to assess things like his head spinning in ways favourable to how I want things to go. I take it to mean he's confused, questioning his choice. Self destructive/defeating I know. I can't really imagine why his head would be spinning since this is what he says he wants. On the other hand, cancelling his life insurance instead of just changing the beneficiary is another sign he's gone and is not looking back. The disentanglement of separation. Funny, he hasn't used the word divorce.
I actually shouldn't analyze things at all as only he knows what he means and what his motives are, and until/unless he's willing to share that with me I can never know. I give that advice to people all the time. "Do as I say not as I do" rings true. I need to take it for what it is, with a chaser of "believe none of what he says and 1/2 of what he does". Or is it the other way around?
I wanted to get all the paperwork signed at one time, so his dragging his feet on the SUV means I need to wait on the house transfer (because of insurance stuff). Otherwise it'll be one meeting to sign house stuff, another to sign vehicle stuff, etc. I don't want to pay a lawyer to schlep documents around or communicate with him. I guess I'll have to wait until the week after next. Ho Ho Ho. H is giving me a house for Christmas, and I'm giving him an SUV!
Anyway, blah blah blah boring I know. I just feel that dumping all this out there helps me along, but telling my support network doesn't as they have an intense hate on for H. That said, they give me the same advice. Ignore him, A.K.A go dark, detach.
Work Christmas luncheon this afternoon, and a friend coming by tomorrow to do some christmas baking. Sunday will be either some shopping or a visit to my Aunt's. She always makes me feel better.
I need to take it for what it is, with a chaser of "believe none of what he says and 1/2 of what he does".
What you wrote is correct.
Believe Actions not words.
It's so good to have family/friend support. Seems we have a lot of Canadians floating around the forum. The most I've since I first joined, or who are open about where they're from.
GWN, it's a very short time since the discovery of the A and the S. Your H is probably spinning because he's losing what he had, and his life is changing faster then he thought it would happen. Even though he "wants" this, he is now faced with the consequences of his actions, and the grass may not be greener on the other side, as he had hoped it would be. But, that's not your concern. You are moving on, despite how difficult it is.
Take care.
most I've since I first joined
... most I've
seen since I first joined. Why oh why won't they bring back the edit button. This is the sort of thing I used it for, and you only had 2 or 3 tries.
Yes, it's nice to see people being open. I certainly notice Canadians.
What a great day I've had. A friend came by this morning. We went to visit my chickens (I still call them mine even though they live elsewhere. Chicken owners will get this!) in the next town and buy some farm fresh eggs. Just when we got back my mother in law called, just to say hi, see how I'm doing and tell me she's thinking about me. SOOOO happy to get that call! She's heading stateside for winter, as usual, but is going to come visit in the spring. She also said it's OK for H's D and me to visit her when she's back in town.
I'm delighted and so lucky to have her in my life! I was scared I'd lose her too.
Spent the afternoon baking and now am pretty stocked up with shortbreads, nanaimo bars, brownies and candied almonds. Let's hope they can stay in the freezer!
Heard this line on a show last night: "Treasure what you have more than what you lost." Words to live by.
Wow! I wish I could bake, but I'm more of a box baker. It is lucky to be able to keep in-law family. Too often, one loses them too.
Have a great Sunday.
"Treasure what you have more than what you lost." Words to live by.
LOVE IT! An attitude of gratitude
Peace
PEI
Massive GAL project number one finished!! OK...maybe not number one, probably number seven or eight around this place, but it's the most significant.
I have virtually single-handedly framed and insulated the exterior walls of a 1600 sf basement to R24! H left me with this when he decided to choose *another path*, and it had to be done.
It took me close on two months but what a sense of accomplishment! I'm celebrating with a wee snort of Oban scotch whisky and from here on in will do fun, crafty projects that don't result in coughing up pink fiberglass.
YAY!!
Forgot to mention, spoke with a good friend of mine tonight. She was my witness for the wedding. She said I sound like myself again, for the first time since the bomb. She's delighted.
Now if that ain't progress I don't know what is....
Let's make it stick.
Congratulations on completing that project! It doesn't matter how long it takes just as long as you completed it. You should be proud of yourself!
As for your friend...she's noticing that you are getting stronger and more like your old self.
Keep up the good work!
Wow! I am so impressed ... I could never do something like that. You rock! Love that you're being more yourself.
Take care.
H finally got his @#%^ together to figure out how to transfer the SUV, presuming of course that he got it right. He called earlier, left a message saying I have to go into the city to sign off and saying he knows how this all stresses me out, blah blah blah. I emailed back saying I'm not going into the city, that he has to come out here to sign off on the house anyway.
All very innocuous, but it just knocked me right back on my butt again. I just want to phone him or email hm and scream at him how much he's hurt me, how cruel he has been to leave me all the way out here by myself with absolutely no regard for me...but I know he won't care. He's shown a side that I never imagined existed, and I just feel so betrayed. But I also feel like a fool because his inability to emotionally connect was blatently clear from the get go...I just chose to see it as something else because I wanted to badly to have the relationship, the love I thought I had.
I've deleted a bunch of my rant because it smacks of self pity. I want to get to the place where it never, ever hurts again. I thought I was there but I guess not.
I don't even know if I want to DB. I believe he's broken beyond repair and that the good life we had was an illusion.
I'm pretty new to your sitch but you show a couple of tendencies in your post above that I work with myself a lot, and I wanted to point them out to you in case it would help. You have a lot of sort of "all or nothing" statements. I only recognize them because I have a HUGE problem with this myself, and it is something that I think we have to self-talk ourselves out of.
1. You said he was cruel to leave you all the way out here by yourself with no regard for you. I said that one a million times. My XH and I were so into each other that there is a whole world around me that I hadn't ever interacted with, making me feel so isolated, and I still struggle with this. The things is that in time you will lose this feeling of complete and total abandonment when you start to make a new life with new friends and other people and things to do. My family is 2 plus hours away and close friends are 2 hours to 1000 miles away, but I still feel less like I'm stuck "out here" than I used to. So just understand that this feeling of abandonment starts to change with GALing and time.
2. Do not cultivate the "feeling like a fool" for what you didn't know or didn't emphasize in the past. Hindsight is 20/20. If you had been told he would do this back then, you'd have said no way no how. You did the best with what you had at the time. You were not a fool. Don't let yourself talk you into believing that.
3. You want to get to where it never ever hurts again. Guess what? That place doesn't exist. If you tell yourself you need to get there and you don't, you set yourself up to fail and failure makes you feel worse. It's always going to hurt in some corner of your heart. JUST LIKE if a person very close to you dies and you always feel a little sad when you think of it. Just like if you used to work some place that you loved and you ended up losing the job for some reason. There will always be some tiny measure of hurt. Don't even make it a goal that it will hurt less. Make it a goal that you will find more things to be peaceful about or even HAPPY about, whether it's enjoying laughing with a friend or a pretty sky or the taste of a piece of chocolate cake, make it your goal that every day you will be seeking THOSE things and magnifying them. They need to become bigger than your pain. And they will. But they'll never take it all away. Isn't it a relief to know that as opposed to wondering if you can personally "get rid of all that pain?"
I hope this helps. I just notice a lot of very decisive statements about the past and future in what you wrote and I'm the same way, and all the stuff I said above is my own way of working with lowering the definitiveness of emotions, because every moment, these things are in flux. We just have to remember that.
So true, Antonia. Pain is a part of life, and it is the only thing that makes one know when you're happy, and at peace. The contrast, the foil of one against the other.
I understand, too, the feeling of being left stranded, and alone. We came to the island for a new beginning, 6 years ago. He chose the house while I was selling the one in our previous city (I hate his choice). For about 2 years he would come home every day. Not much changed, emotionally speaking, things got worse. Then he started working away from home, first a week at a time, and five weeks at home. Now it's a week occasionally, and 3 -5 weeks away. He travels overseas or across the country. I have two new friends here, my D19 and my S24. My kids have their own lives, and my friends have their own husbands, so we just have coffee every now and then. We have 2 dogs, neither of them mine, but I take care of them. I miss my friends, my family, my home back in our other city. It took me a long time to build those friendships after I immigrated, so I cherish them very much. I felt very abandoned, isolated and betrayed.
Anyway, I just want you to see that it's not always that bad. I have come to the conclusion that I am where I'm supposed to be ... for now. Someone on my thread pointed out that, at least, I have a chance to go to uni, have a car, a house, and not in Africa. I guess, the point was, that there's always someone worse off. I knew that, but it's hard when you had better, but I starting to live with what I have, and GAL with things that always wanted to do.
Yes, your H was cruel to leave you alone, but you can change that eventually. Sell the house, move back into the city, or you might find you like living there, after all. Time. Patience. Let go of the anger. It won't happen all at once, but you will get there. I still rant about my sitch, but deep down I am working with myself to move forward. Slow process, but it is forward movement.
Great food for thought. I also tend to be a very all-or-nothing thinker, overlooking all the shades that come between.
Thanks Antonia and BeingMe. I have sprung back from my dip, though not quite to the place I was at before. Just one of those things, I guess.
I absolutely do have it better than so many people...folks here who are dealing with long histories and complicated or hostile realities, a colleague at work whose XW is now trying to drag him into a custody battle because she left him but can't let go, a friend of my MIL who was left by her H after 42 years of marriage. I cannot even begin to imagine....
My H has largely respected my wishes since the split and has taken responsibility for the mess we find ourselves now. He says he's sorry he hurt me and that "I truly hope you find someone who won't hide from you", which says to me he's really gone...he's not able to come out into the open. Since we signed the agreement he doesn't call pressuring me anymore. There's none of the *drama* we see so often here. That said, I've gone dark, have always been independent, and we don't have kids to fight over. It's been a clean split, but he still needs to own his behaviour. He minimizes what he's done. For example, he didn't lie, he "manipulated the truth". Seeing or speaking with him doesn't remind me of the pain he inflicted, it "causes you stress". It's probably a coping mechanism for him, but alas...
Then there's the BDSM issue (he was the *master* to several *slaves* in online relationships), a secret to me until we split. And his refusal to talk about his past.
We split up once, before we were living together. He just one day went cold. We went a week without speaking. Finally he called me, wanting to talk. We went for a walk and he told me he didn't want to do this anymore, he didn't have any passion for me(the master/slave business, as it turns out, was going on then but I didn't know). I told him fine, if he felt his life without me was going to be better than his life with me, then good luck with it. He asked for a second chance and I gave it to him. Any time I tried to talk about this with him he made jokes, said I begged him to come back. I never found out the real reason but my sense is that the broken women he had online filled a need that should have been mine to fill and as a result we had no intimacy. That said, I have too much self respect to do what these women did. I've seen photos. Light porn viewing is one thing, this was something completely different.
H never talked to me about his childhood or past relationships, which I found somewhat disconcerting but didn't push...just accepted him for who he is. Same for the way he kept me separate from his group of work friends, never, ever invited them over for a bbq or a swim, even though I suggested it often. I had accepted all of this and loved him unconditionally, but now I wonder if he's simply broken beyond repair.
Antonia, you're right in pointing out the "all or nothing" statements. I've been like it my whole life and as someone who's been there you understand, I'm sure, that it's really hard to see when you're in it. Not that I'm making excuses...really :-) One of the things I've been trying to manage is being reactive....throughout negotiations with H I chose to reflect rather than react. It helped in not responding immediately to his emails and calls. Last night was a relapse that fortunately didn't make it to H's ears. I don't think I really feel like a fool, but I do during those times that I plummet. And I know I'll be OK.
I'm trying different things to meet people in the community. The "women over 40" meetup group was not my speed. I signed up to volunteer for a Big Brothers/Sisters event next summer, and last night was the first meeting. It will be something to do, but no social connections were made. It's an adjustment, but I have good friends in the city that I see when I can. I want to start up a stitch-and-b^*#h group at a local coffee shop in the new year.
H's D (20 yrs old) contacted me today inviting me to take a beach trip with her in February. She said she'd thought a lot about it and thinks we'd have a lot of fun. I think I'm going to go. I think that maintaining a relationship with me helps her to recognize that her father isn't a complete a$$. She's his only child and they've had communication challenges throughout her life. I learned recently that H lied to me about the nature of his split from her mother and about leaving their hometown. She carries a lot of pain from this. They went more than a year recently without speaking, and D credits me with their reconciliation. I've never badmouthed him to her, and always encourage her to have a relationship with him when she's ready. I know he loves her very much.
Yes, BeingMe, I can change what I want or need to eventually. I don't hold a lot of anger most of the time, but I have my moments. I think that's OK since it's only been three months.
Time and patience and ditching the all or nothing thinking are my greatest challenges. I miss him dearly. We had a good life and were mostly good together...really....unless of course I never knew H, which is well likely. The path he's chosen makes no sense to me, but I guess it doesn't have to and never will.
Hope all is well with everyone, and that you have a great weekend.
Antonia, you're right in pointing out the "all or nothing" statements. I've been like it my whole life and as someone who's been there you understand, I'm sure, that it's really hard to see when you're in it. Not that I'm making excuses...really :-) One of the things I've been trying to manage is being reactive....throughout negotiations with H I chose to reflect rather than react. It helped in not responding immediately to his emails and calls.
This has been key for me also, getting control of the all-or-nothing. I've always felt that another's anger was a total rejection of me and tried very hard to keep others happy so as not to anger them. Ask me how that worked out
I am working on using the sacred pause, allowing me to reflect and respond rather than react from my emotions.
About the secrets GWN, that's tough to be in a marriage with someone who has a whole other life. I would feel so betrayed. Virtual {{{GWN}}}
Great post, Antonia. Lots to think about.
Hi labug
I feel bewildered more than betrayed. I just accepted him unconditionally, and that he didn't want to talk about his childhood or his past...never figured there were actions and decisions he was ashamed of or that he was hiding from me. It was all just another shock. I'm still trying to figure out what exactly hiding from me means.
Lately H's tone has changed. He's become very short and to the point since he moved into his own apartment, whereas before he seemed more apologetic in how he interactd with me. He would say he was confused, etc, but doesn't anymore...not that we communicate on a regular basis. He doesn't use a greeting or a signature in his emails now either. I think it's that he was manipulating me before and no longer needs to. He has his separation agreement, things from the house that helped him set up in his apartment, the king bed and in all but legal terms, the SUV. The boat is listed for sale at a local marina. It's supposed to be back here by now, but he's done nothing about that. I don't even know if he's paid his bill for winterizing. They called twice, I didn't forward the message. My insurance company told me that once the house is in my name we cannot insure with it the boat that is in both our names. He's going to have to come up with a year's worth of insurance for that and new insurance for the SUV. I wish the boat wasn't also my problem.
I have a meeting with my lawyer on Thursday to sign the house transfer. He also needs to sign off (and I have to sign the vehicle transfer) but of course he's dragged his feet in getting back to me and can't even manage to look up the lawyer's address....he's asking me to send it to him. I don't actually know the address...just the building. AND I don't want to do the work for him AGAIN. I think I'll just ignore. But then I think I don't want to help him hate me more, because he kind of seems to.
His D invited me to go on a beach vacation with her in Feb. She told him about this and by her account he was not happy about it. He told her to "do what you need to do" but implied that he wasn't OK with it. All this to say that it seems to me now that his D is maybe using me to try and hurt her father. I don't know if she's doing it intentionally, but either way I'm not sure how to handle it.
A friend says she's treating me as if I'm still her father's wife. That said, we didn't have this sort of relationship when her father and I were together because he worked at keeping us apart....all part of his compartmentalization tendencies. I think I'm going to say no on the trip and find a way to step back a little bit. She'll probably fade into her own life in January anyway once university starts up again.
It's all the creaks and moans of adjustment, I suppose.
I joined a divorced/separated meetup group and will try to take in some of their activities. It's unfortunate that things are in the city since I have to either hang around after work or go back. The latter isn't really an option as 100+ km of driving per day is quite enough. I try to understand how H could convince me to move out here because "the porch was just a foot too narrow" in our previous house, and then leave me to move into a one bedroom apartment on a busy city road. I guess I shouldn't try to understand.
Anyway...looking forward to my sister and her family's arrival next thursday...can't come soon enough!
GWN,
As your h moves along the path of mlc, you will find that his memory will go to mush. They can't remember anything, so I'm not surprised that he continues to ask where your lawyer's office is located. He's not asking to annoy you, but he just can't seem to remember...depression does this. I would send him one more reminder about the meeting and the address on Wednesday.
As for his tone of voice, yes, it has changed. He's gotten what he wants thus far and now he wants to be on his own and not have "mom" calling or emailing him. His rebelling child is coming out. You will also notice that he will become nicer when he wants something. Many of them do this....
His childhood may have had so issues w/his parents or just one of them or it could have been another authority figure. The issue could have been validation. There are any number of issues that mlcers tend to stuff down during the time of development that will raise their ugly heads at midlife. I don't consider it as "hiding" anything from you, but it's more of "stuffing it down" until the pot boils over for him. So, please do not spend a lot of time dwelling on trying to figure out what happened to him. Only he knows and maybe some day he will talk to you about it. However, before he can talk to you or anyone about it, he must face that childhood issue first, learn from it and accept that there was nothing he could do to change it.
February is a ways off and anything can happen between now and then. She may not be doing this to hurt him, but may be wanting to show some support to you since she is a child from another marriage. Things are not always as they appear to the naked eye. Sit quietly and allow this one to play out for a while...don't be too hasty in saying no right now. You've got plenty of time to decline in January.
Glad to see that you joined a support group. This will help you a good bit. Just keep in mind that many do not know what mlc is and may not always agree w/you on this subject.
If you have not completed your decorating for the holidays, you better get moving since your sister and her family are coming in for a visit...you will enjoy having the family there with you, especially this year.
Good luck on Thursday!
I agree with Snodderly ... who knows what your H is hiding from his childhood. My H hides as well, or doesn't choose to share anything with me. He doesn't even tell the kids about his childhood ... or, very little. We have all mentioned this to him and to each other. Oh well! Some people are just like that. My kids are "sick" of all the stories from my childhood. I have not hidden very much from them, the funny, the sad, painful (childbirth pain, and emotional pain LOL), happy, you name it, they've heard it. It's an extension from my past to them, and onwards. In my mind, anyway.
So, stop trying to "read" you H's motives for anything. It is odd, but there ya go. Have a happy Christmas.
There is a very good book called 'Silent Sons' My xh maintains, typically that his childhood 'was no better and no worse than anyone else's' Although his youngest sister told my son it was a horror show.
A lot of MLC is about suppressing unpleasant memories [as well as pleasant ones] and acting out the hurt and pain.
if they were able to deal with the hurt of pain of their childhood effectively, which includes revisiting their real memories of it, they might be on a path towards reality instead of fantasy land,
GWN,
My H, like yours and many others would not talk about his childhood either. I have very little information about it.
I believe Snodderly is so right when she says they stuff those things down so they don't have to deal with them. At midlife when so many things get questioned, those issues have a tendency to bubble up to the surface. Since the MLCer has not faced those issues head on before they start to churn with the natural life transition and things become a jumbled mess and the train derails. Confusion, uncertainty, depression, and a need to run to try and avoid it all ensues.
My H and I hardly talk at all anymore, and when he does contact me it's through email. As with your H, there is no greeting or signature. He is to the point, no social graces.
Snodderly is right again though that when he wants something he is nicer.
Enjoy your family's visit and make the most of it. We have choices in how we handle this. We can let it make us bitter angry people or we can choose to find joy in our lives regardless of the S out there blowing in the wind.
Thanks all for your input.
I told stepD that I can't go south in February. Truth is I just don't have enough vacation time or cash. She was OK with it and hopes we can go another time. I said of course, and that I'd treat her to a spa day in Feb instead.
I also sent H an email with the address of my lawyer (hadn't seen the advice to wait until tomorrow at that time) and reminded him about the insurance situation with the boat, asking him that he get it sorted out. He replied late this afternoon with "so I have to pay for that too". I'm not going to bite. The marina called again today, this time to say the boat has to be picked up by Friday at noon or a winter storage fee will be due because the gate is being locked. I'll call them back tomorrow and give them his number because clearly he hasn't.
I feel bad on some level about his financial issues, but truth is I'm in no better position than he is. He wanted to walk away from our marriage with no responsibility and minimal impact, but fact is it's impossible. I'm certain he's blaming me right now, and saying how unfair it all is.
StepD called this evening while I was out Christmas shopping. She said H sent her an email asking her to go out for dinner so he could explain to her why he doesn't want us to go on a trip together. He's dyslexic so she misread it initially, thought he said he was OK with it. I suggested that she go see him and hear what he has to say, that maybe he was opening the door to communicating better with her, and told her that his feelings are his feelings and that she doesn't have to agree with them. She worried that he'd say something to anger her and she'd lose her temper, so I told her just to let him talk and not take the bait. She can let him know she hears what he's saying but that she disagrees and feels it is unfortunate that he isn't supportive of her decision. She said that if I had done to him what he did to me it would be different, but that all things considered he has no right to tell her she can't see me.
So I'm concerned aobut what he might say to her. I've never bad-mouthed him to her, and have encouraged her to try and have a relationship with him. I always remind her when she brings up the past that we can learn from it or repeat it, and that it's important to put incidents from a long time ago in their proper place and move on. I truly hope he doesn't go in with both guns blazing to assasinate my character.
Oh, and apparently he's not seeing OW anymore. He told her he did it because stepD asked him to. She had suggested to him that it will be difficult for him to sort things out while he's seeing her, and I guess on some level he agreed but I'm not sure I buy it. At any rate, none of it has anything to do with me or our marriage. And who knows if he's telling her the truth.
I'm quite certain he's making me out to be the devil for all of this and I hate it but I'm going to sit quietly. I have a sinking suspicion that something's going to blow, that things are about to get nasty. I hope I'm wrong.
Just came from the lawyer's office. I am now officially up one house and down one vehicle. And exhausted. Can't forget that one.
H's manner, his attitude, was awful...very negative. He sat in a chair accross from me, chomping on gum, looking around, arms crossed, asking me questions without looking at me.
I had brought a release of interest form for the insurance, including the vehicle. He said "I'm not signing that" because he didn't want to be left without vehicle insurance, and rightly so. The transfer has to be registered first. But then he got nasty, basically blaming me because I wouldn't go into the city to do this for him. When he said "the office is right next to where you pick up the bus to work" it felt good to reply with "I don't get the bus to work." Shows change in me. However, it didn't improve his attitude. His hands were shaking when he was signing the documents, just like when he signed the separation agreemnt.
He at one point was giving me grief about something, and I replied with "I understand that you're stressed out right now, but you have no right to throw stones at me after your choices." Shut him right up.
I also told him that stepD invited me on a trip, not the other way around, and that I have never once bad-mouthed him to her and expect the same in return. He said he hasn't done that to me either but that he's tired of his daughter yelling at him about what he's done, both now and in the past. He's blaming me for a lot. It's amlost like he doesn't really care if we're friends, he just doesn't want to deal with anything she throws at him.
Next time I talk to stepD I am going to ask her if she will agree to not discuss me with H. I will discuss her feelings and try to help her through things, but if she's just going to use our conversations to try and hurt him then I have to re-evaluate.
I was astonished at how much I feel I didn't know the person I interacted with today. He was a 100% completely different person. I am fully of the opinion that there is no turning back, and in all honestly seeing this side of him convinces me that I wouldn't want him back. The whole experience leaves me feeling icky, like I want to shudder. He was not somebody I would like ever. I'm shaking my head, actually, at the impact this has had on me. The person I was with today would be perfectly capable of the things he did to me.
So when I got home there was a message he'd left earlier in the day, saying the boat is in the shelter next to the house and that he's sure he'd told me in an email that he was going to do that. He hadn't sent me an email about it. His tone was nice. Completely different from whatever it is I met just two hours later.
Bizarroville.
I'm glad this is done and I don't have to deal with him again for a long time. I have fully and completely detached.
Well you could have knocked me over with a feather.
Just logged on to get the details of a thing I want to go to tomorrow evening and what do I see? An email from H that he must have sent as soon as he got home:
"I need to apologize to you for my behavior today and attitude. I am very sorry to have hurt you today with my stone throwing.
I never knew about D asking you to go on a trip with her. It does bother me alot, that is something D and i need to talk about. sorry
[I had asked him to return four t-shirts he wore that had belonged to my deceased brother, whom I love dearly. H had even worn one of them under his suit at our wedding. Today he returned three, I asked about the fourth.]
your brother's fox blue shirt, i dont seem to have it. could it be in your house some where? I will check with [friend I stayed with initially] if i may have left it there. I dont remember seeing that shirt since i moved out. i will re look again for you"
This is truly bizarre. It also jumped out at me that he said "your house" instead of "the house".
I don't plan to respond.
I know money's tight for him, and I had initially planned to point out to him that he had put an extra boat payment into the joint account. I was going to suggest that he take it out, but I didn't because he was hostile.
Now I feel I should do this, but at the same time I don't want to get sucked in. I truly have detached, but this has thrown me for a loop.
Yuk, I hope you can put on some calming music, have a glass of wine and relax. What a terrible day but you handled it beautifully.
Does he do drugs?
If it were me, I wouldn't respond, go very, very dark.
wine - check
music - check
relaxing - check, surprisingly
Thanks for your support, labug. His email to me suggests what you said, that I (somehow?) handled it right. It also makes me believe the man I married (and then some, actually) really is still in there somewhere. I ran this by one of my sisters (I'm lucky to have three) and a friend and they were both bewildered and surprised. It's funny, my sister described what she thought was going on with him and it was MLC to a T, although she's never read about it.
I was dreading this day and it's over so I feel like a weight has lifted.
Oh, and no, he doesn't do drugs.
But there was a time early in our relationship when I feared he was an alcoholic. By the time we separated we'd probably have a bottle of wine with dinner most nights. I stopped drinking anything when we first split, and now I might have a glass of wine two or three times a week.
I've said before that looking back I think he's been in MLC for quite a while. I think the drinking might have been one of the signs, but of course I didn't recognize it as such at that time. At the very least I believe it was some sort of self-medicating.
But alas, what I think isn't important. What I see is. Knowing this has helped me to stop analyzing the crap out of everything he says and does, and ultimately to detach.
GWN,
The description of your h in the lawyer's office reminded me of my xh, i.e., the gum chewing, arms crossed, attitude, hands shaking when signing documents. It's all the emotional stuff that has been stuffed and they do know what they are doing and really and truly don't want to be forced to do anything that they don't want to do.
You handled the meeting extremely well. Now, here's something I'm going to point out and I know you already are on it....do not tell him how to do his finances. He's a grown man and he can figure out whether or not he has an extra boat payment coming out each month. Allow him to "learn" how to manage his finances. This is all about what he needs to learn while on his mlc journey.
I laughed at the "your house" and not "the or our" house. They all detach from what use to be "ours or theirs". It's a defense mechanism for them to protect their feelings. He's aleady, in his mind, cut the ties w/you....so chalk the phrase up to mlc.
As for the drinking, it sounds like mlc had already gotten to him for a while. My xh did the same thing.
You are now ready to focus your company, holidays and yourself. Keep up the good work!
Good morning all
So with shaking hands, on Thursday H signed over the house to me, was hostile and unrecognizable, ranted about it being my fault that his D is mad at him, and later emailed to apologize for his attitude and behavior.
Saturday he calls and email to ask me to take the fire extinguisher off the boat because it might explode and it's right next to my propane tanks.
Sunday he emails to tell me that he's looked into the phone/tv account and what needs to be done with it (I'd asked him to do this several times and then did it myself two weeks ago).
Today I come into work to find an email he'd sent on Friday afternoon telling me he's transferred the SUV...information I didn't need to know since I signed off on Thursday.
This is all annoyingly infuriating because I KNOW none of this contact has anything to do with the issues mentioned. He's either alleviating his guilt or trying to be in touch. But whatever. I emailed him back this morning and said "Hi H. Unless it is an emergency or something important or you wish to discuss our marriage, please do not contact me. That includes responding to this email. Thanks, W."
While going through some boxes yesterday on the hunt for Christmas decorations I came across his Book of Mormon. I was kind of astonished to find this as I know his mother belongs to some off-shoot of that church but H has never been a religious man. Tucked inside was a hand written note from his mother to him from a long time ago (faded paper and ink, no date though) telling him that no matter what, his parents will always love him and that he will figure things out. There was also mention of a rift between H and his now deceased father.
Clearly H had some kind of crisis in the past. When I think about him criticizing me for not being religious enough, his interest in BDSM, his unwillingness to even mention his past, the depth and breadth of whatever it his he is struggling with within himself starts to come clear. Being married, living in your "forever home" and having an adult life means all that buried stuff has to somehow come together, that he becomes a complete person, and he couldn't do it. I believe he hates himself and feels like a failure.
I kind of imagine it to be like sparks going off in random corners of his mind that shine a little light on his path up to this point. They all need to come together in one light but it scares the crap out of him so he just tries to stop the sparks. Meanwhile, the light would be more peaceful in the long run. Don't know if that makes any sense?
Maybe one day he'll want to talk to me about our marriage, which would mean talking about his deepest feelings and his past, but maybe not. It seems as time goes by I'm finding things out on my own and I realize he's probably in a bad and painful place. But until he wants to have those conversations with me he has to stay away. My boundary has been clearly set and now that the house and vehicle are done with, there's no need to skirt it.
Have a great day everybody.
Today is a tough day and I don't really know why. Maybe because all the Christmas prep is done and I don't have that to occupy my mind. Maybe because work is slow so there's plenty of time for other things to creep in. Maybe because every day in the mail I get a Christmas card addressed to H and me so there's a constant reminder. Maybe because I firmly set my boundary yesterday so I know that this is the end game.
Whatever the reason, I was angry, so angry, earlier today. I know I have it a lot easier than other people here who have longer marriages, children and trouble making ends meet, and I have a lot of things to be grateful for, and I am. I'm just so angry with him today. I would never have moved way out here by myself, yet here I am. I did this for him and he left. I want to call him and yell at him that what he did was not OK, that he's hurt me in ways I never imagined he would, that when I made my vows I meant it, that he is a terrible person, that when D yells at him she's speaking the truth, that he needs to just stop giving her things to yell at him about instead of trying to keep us apart.
But I won't.
I came home today to a card from my parents with a generous Christmas gift tucked inside. It made me cry, and I haven't cried in two weeks. I know they sent it because money's tight right now, but I'm 44 years old and shouldn't be in this place. I blame myself for bad judgement, for trusting him, for loving him unconditionally when there were so many red flags. But every body else loved him too because what we all saw was the good person. One of the first things my mother said to me was that my deceased brother would have really liked H. What I always heard was how suited we seemed to be, how we seemed to have a nice relationship.
I know I'll get over this within a short time, like I get over all my feeling sorry for myself moments, but I needed to get it out there. Even the strongest can't be strong all the time. I guess it's all about what you do with yourself in the weak moments.
I'm going to get on the treadmill now and look out at my frozen pool and hope the snow stays away this winter. I hope the exercise helps, and can't wait until Thursday when my sister, her parterner and their daughter finally arrive.
Each time since H and I split up that there's been a gathering here I have missed his presence deeply. So hard.
So christmas went off without a hitch. I had family here for breakfast and then the kids opened gifts. We had a bonfire out back in the afternoon (a new ritual, I hope), and then more friends, including sD20, joined us for dinner. I've done turkey before, but never a 22 pounder! It was fantastic! I have turkey pies and turkey soup in the freezer and an entire breast to make something else with. My favourite way to show love to people is to cook for them. I cooked for H and me most nights. He always said it didn't count as a sign of love because I enjoy it....he'd have preferred that I do something I hated. Bizarre.
His daughter seemed sad when she visited, and later confirmed my suspicions saying that it was hard to see everybody and how much her dad threw away. Poor thing. He's let her down so much in her life. I'm glad she has sound role models in her mother and step dad. With every stupid decision H makes, though, she slips further away.
And now it's New Years! Tonight I go for dinner and live music with friends at a local restaurant. It's going to be a great time! I'm hoping to maybe meet some local folks there. I did connect via email today with someone on a local divorce meetup group. We're going to get together in the new year, so maybe the isolation of living out here will start to fade.
Happy New Year everybody! 2012's gonna be great! I can feel it!
I'd love to hear from or of folks with no children whose marriages were restored.
Because there's no kids, there's little or no contact, so there must be differences in how things unfold or resolve. I communicate with H's daughter from time to time but not with him. She knows I'm doing well.
Thanks in advance!
I was doing so well, but just now got an email from H asking for the document that says his name is off the mortgage. It brought back all the pain, the anger, the sadness. I just want to give him a blast of s**t, tell him how much he's hurt and betrayed me.
I fear that he wants this document so that he can apply for another mortgage with the homewrecker. I just don't understand how someone can walk away from their marriage so easily, without ever trying to work things out with their spouse, without ever telling them they were at the point of leaving.
I was a fool to think he ever loved me or ever wanted to be with me. I want him to disappear, to never have to see or hear from him ever again, for him to be swallowed up by a deep hole in the earth. It all just hurts so much all over again.
I decided to block H's email because contact rocks my foundation.
I'd really appreciate some encouragement or feedback or something.
My MLCer was very abusive and crushed my self-esteem and self-worth right out the window. I HAD (in my mind) to cut all ties with him in order to get some strenght back. I would reopen, NOT INITIATE but allow him to talk or see me once i was stronger.
He kept checking in. We have 4 kids so it is easy for him to have contact.
DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU! You can always unblock him if you change your mind. You and YOUR emotional healing are the most important things right now. They are your priorities.
GAL and have fun! Surround yourself with people who have good values and enjoy their life. They will be an inspiration to you.
You might not know it but you are an inspiration of strenght and courage for other womans, neighbours and accointance.
You will be approached unexpectedly sooner or later and you will be surprised but proud of yourself. Life is amazing sometimes.
GWN....
All I can say is I can identify! What you're feeling is exactly what I've been going through time and time again since my separating with STBX.
We do have children, but the contact has been very minimal for he refuses to speak to me when angry. He recently established contact, and it's renewing so much anger, resentment, frustration and sadness for me. Everything you want to say to your H I want to say to mine.
I couldn't agree with you more. How can these people just walk away, after dropping a bomb on us, and not even give a valiant effort to work things out and leave no stone unturned?
I wish I never had to see him ever again. I feel that's the only true way I could ever heal, or at least heal faster. I feel like I start to make progress, and then then spewing comes on from him, and it's like opening old wounds. I too feel like fool thinking that he still loved me after running and coming back 2 times.
Now he's happy in his new life with the OW, but still sure likes to chew me out when the mood strikes him.
I may not be of much encouragment or feedback, but I just wanted to let you know I do know how you're feeling, because Im feeling it too.
GWN,
You sound as if you are a very together and confident person, although I know this can be a front to our truer, deeper feelings. I believe you did the right thing in blocking contact. It can be a very belittling, unsettling thing. As much as you might deeply crave any sort of contact, you know that in the final analysis, it will only depress you. Detaching is the most healthy way for you to cope, both emotionally and physically. Another is GAL'ng of which they have no part. That doesn't mean you need to get all new friends, but perhaps opening yourself up to new acquaintences.
Don't mistake lack of response as lack of interest of others on this Board. You are being read, just perhaps not by someone who feels they have any special wisdom to impart at that particular moment.
Hang in there, friend.
GWN, I think you should do what you need to do to protect yourself emotionally.
Just a thought, this OW is involved with a man who is now known to buy a "dream" house, only to abandon it and the woman he is involved with, rather soon (2.5 years married?). Just think, she has found a real dud, and she probably thinks she is so smart to get a man away from his wife.
GWN,
Yes, it appears that our xh is getting ready to purchase a new home. He can get a copy of the document which indicates that his name is off your current home from the mortgage company. By him requesting that info from you, he was letting you know what he is planning to do.
How can they just walk away? They are conflict avoiders and w/that type of personality, they can shut down and just leave, no emotion, no empathy, etc., and start over. Oh, trust me, there are times when they think about us, but they try so hard to stuff those memories down.
GWN, he loved you the best he could, but his love was not as "invested" as yours was. I bet you were a fixer and did everything to make him happy...am I right? You actually put more into the marriage, the whole nine yards and then some. Conflict avoiders give, but it's not what I call a 100% investment, they always keep a little part of them hidden away and you never know about it.
GWN, block his emails, don't take his calls. He is on a mission to building his mansion of happiness and doesn't care how you feel about it. His empathy chip is missing and he's no good for you the way he is and what he is doing right now.
I do understand how you feel...I had the exact same thing happen to me after my divorce.
How can they just walk away? They are conflict avoiders and w/that type of personality, they can shut down and just leave, no emotion, no empathy, etc., and start over. Oh, trust me, there are times when they think about us, but they try so hard to stuff those memories down.
Yes Snodderly this is important to remember! I am remembering this right now in my dealings!
Ladies,
what is it about MLCer and castle?
Are they looking for the fairytail ending?
I had told XH: " Go ahead and buy your castle but it will not solve your problem!
My explanation ( in my situation ) was xh felt uncapable of fixing our house. Scared to fell i guess. He felt inferior to other man and hid himself behind his anger wall. He would tell me things he wanted to fix but would never act so I WOULD! Then, i would hear: " I told you i would do it. (YAH! 6 months ago)
I don't think they even trust themselves anymore. They act on impulse witch often creates an even bigger mess for them to deal with. How ovewhelming their life must be!
Thank you SO MUCH everybody for being there when I needed you, for answering my call. I do really well for the most part, but the whenever he rears his head the despair comes again. Fortunately I bounce back pretty good these days, but I have to say I'm still unsettled today. It motivated me to get together with a friend after work rather than making the long, dark drive home to an empty house though, so YAY!
Tomorrow I have brunch with a couple of people in the area who are also separated. Hopefully it will go well and we will have ourselves a little support group in my community.
Kimmerz - Thank you. It helps a great deal to know others are going through a similar thing...not that I wish this on anybody. I wish H would stay away, or that his reasons for contact were important, but they're mundane and completely unnecessary. Maybe he wants to know if I'm still here. He seems to think my life hasn't changed, but it has.
Punkin - It was kind of you to say I seem together and confident. I've been conscious of trying to do the right thing through all this, and have always been independent...breeds confidence in most things, but I still hold fear of not being good enough and of abandonment. He knew this about me and chose to do it anyway. In a way it's a good lesson because I know it's not about me and that I am surviving.
Being Me - You're right...the homewrecker, if they're still together (last my step daughter said, they weren't, but he lied to me about that before so who knows....and at this moment, who cares?), has found a great big dud. He's a mess and he knows it. The person she got involved with was him married to me. It'll be a whole new facade in no time and he will shut down.
Snodderly - You are always so on the mark! H is absolutely a conflict avoider, and has admitted to stuffing things down and hiding from me, the latter in a HUGE way. He said soon after we split that "I truly hope you find someone who doesn't hide from you." In my mind I wasn't a fixer, but I certainly didn't "need" him except to love me, respect me, share my life and protect my heart. But I didn't then and do not now feel responsible for his happiness (Learned this perspective during my brother's illness and subsequent death). In hindsight, we certainly weren't side by side moving in the same direction, although superficially we appeared to be.
Exquisitetobe - I chuckled at "I told you I could do it". My husband was the same...he'd get annoyed with house repairs (big jobs, but with an end in sight) and if I said "I can do it" or "you don't have to do it now" he'd say the same sort of thing with frustration.
To all of you - Knowing that I am not alone means the world to me as the end of a marriage can be a lonely place. I have truly never known anybody who has divorced (except one friend who is the leaver after six years of trying desperately to save her marriage...different perspective) so I have nothing to draw from. I really appreciate being able to come here and get support when I most need it from wise and experienced people. I hope I can pay it back sometime.
I just realized something ... my H is a conflict avoider too. Who are these people that we marry?
AAARRRRGH! I am so annoyed and frustrated. H has contacted me AGAIN, this time to ask when he can come and pack up the rest of his things. I had ignored his previous request for the document that says his name is off the mortgage, and now this. What is his freakin' problem????? Seriously? I'd really like to know why he won't back off and give me the space and time I need.
I told him before that I don't want to see him and that I need a long stretch of space but he can't even give me two weeks. Every time he contacts me it sets me back, reminds me of what he did, how he treated me. What he doesn't seem to realize is that it also ends up delaying how soon he can get his things. I need distance of a couple of months before I'll be steady enough to have him in my house.
I have drafted an email to him, reminding him of what he did to me and people close to me and telling him to back the he%% off. I'm really close to sending it but there's a little piece of me saying not to.
Help Please!! What do I do to get him to back off?? Ignoring doesn't seem to help.
Give him his stuff. Or at the very least, leave them outside of the home for him to pick-up. Despite what he did to you, they are his things. It would be faster for you to give him his stuff and then he wouldn't have any other reason to contact you.
I'm with MrBond here ... they are his things, and despite what he did (to you, for you, in spite of you, etc) he has a right to them.
Detachment and darkness are two completely different things GWN. Darkness is an action, a conscious choice to avoid someone. Detachment is an emotional state. It does not require them to do anything. It's up to you.
Why do you let his actions determine your state of mind? Why give him that power?
PEI
GWN,
I agree w/the others, give him his belongings. What I would suuggest is that if you don't want to be around him, have him make a list of what he wants and then pack it up, send him an email when he can come pick it up and advise him that you will either leave it on the front or back porch or somewhere where the weather will not ruin it or you can be there to ensure he picks it up.
If you don't do this, he will go through his attorney and then you will be forced to do so.
From my own experience, by xh went through his attorney who contact mine to set up a date and time for him to come pick up some stuff. My xh had already gotten all of his personal belongings from my residence. His excuse to come into my residence was to get a plastic Easter Egg, his childhood photos as well as my set of keys to his vehicle. I agreed to the date/time and he showed up w/two police officers who soon learned that something was off w/xh. What did my xh want? My needlepoint pictures, etc., things that were not considered personal belongings (therefore, he didn't get them). He was asked by me, twice, was there anything else he wanted. His comment, I will make a list and provide it to my attorney. I advised him no, you've had your opportunity to get what you want today. This nut job left all of his tools, ladders, equipment behind. It is now all mine and I use them all of the time. Ten years later, he sends me an email every so often wanting things and I tell him no...read your divorce decree.
Long story short, he may say he wants his belongings, but unless you are overseeing the packing up when he's there, he may just very well sneak items out of the house that are not considered "his". Just my two cents.
This picking up the belonging phase in the MLC is a stange thing. My ex fought and fought over items in the house. When it came down to him picking the things up he never followed through with it THREE times. The last time I left everything out on the driveway and he came and parked his Uhaul in the driveway and just looked at the stuff. After about an hour he just left it all. He has never asked for anything since. I have all of his mother's things (she is now deceased), her documents, etc..... These things I would rather not have but he does not want to pick them up. She is part of the reason though why I think he had the crisis. She abandoned him at the age of 12 and took off to another state.
Trusting,
They all tend to leave things behind. My mother and I packed up all of his clothes, shoes and belongings and put them in my detached garage. He was advised that all of it was there. It took me threatening to call Good Will to get him to finally come and he only took 1/3 of the stuff and left me a note in a joking manner that he guess he would get the rest next time. I emailed him when I got home and advised him that he either came and got the stuff by Friday or it would be gone. It didn't take him 24 hours before he came and got the rest. He really had absolutely no excuse to come to my residence after that, but my lawyer advised me to give him one "free" home visit and after that...no more. Guess what, even after telling him it was either take stuff today or forget it, he had his lawyer contact mine (again) about coming back to my residence again because he didn't get everything...guess what...I said absolutely not and pulled out the police report indicating he had been given not once, but several chances to go back in and select other things. To this day, I get periodic emails wanting vacation photos (I'm in all of them) and things from the house. Talk about crazy...he is definitely out that ship of fools.
What are you going to do with all of his stuff?
Thanks everybody.
H was by once in November to take everything he needed to set up his apartment, and a second time to pick up a bed. He has the things most important to him - his bike, crossbow, father's ashes (in a clay urn shaped like the Stanley Cup that my sister made for him and gave him a very short time before he left), etc. I moved everything into the garage that day and made sure the towels, sheets, clothes, etc, were clean. I told him then that I needed a "big chunk of time" without contact before he could come back, because contact opens up all the wounds. He said OK, but hasn't been able to go even two weeks without contacting me about something. I'm sure he can live a few more weeks without his grandmother's tea cups, cappucino maker, tools and sports equipment and rifles he hasn't used since we met. I don't believe this desire to get his stuff has anything to do with his stuff.
I seriously pondered letting him come by but decided that my wellbeing will come first this time and he can wait. He's spun himself into a whirling dervish over things before and I buckled, but this time I will keep Chicken Little in mind...the sky isn't falling. I told him in an email today that he needs to respect my wishes, that his things are safe, and that he'll get them sooner if he just leaves me alone for a while. I also told him that his emails are blocked and to please not call me, and that he needs to move on with his life as I am. The tone of this email was polite. I highly doubt that he will use a lawyer because we haven't used them yet, excpet to register title transfer of the house (has to be done by a lawyer to prevent fraud). He doesn't want to pay the money...and doesn't have it anyway.
I am apprehensive about him being in my house when I'm not there, and he will need to come in to get the gun cabinet out of the basement as it's really heavy. The rest I will eventually move to the garage. He only has things in the basement and garage right now, so it's not like I see it every day. Putting things outside is not an option where I live right now. THAT would be vindictive, and I am not that way.
Thanks again everybody for chiming in. I do respect your opinions on letting him come get his things and gave it due consideration, but given the situation have chosen a different option. This respite from him will put me right where I need to be so that he can come take his things.
GWN,
Enjoy your respite, but something tells me he will be coming whether you like it or not and he just may have the law backing him on this. I would strongly urge you to set up a time for him to come get the rest of his stuff. If you don't want to be around him, stay upstairs, but have a family member or a friend be there. Mlcers can truly become very nasty when they don't get what they want and when they want it.
Snodd,
I gave a lot to purple heart and then this summer I had a huge rummage sale. The sentimental stuff I just store in a box in the basement.
Hi all
So after about a month of pretty much complete blackness I emailed H on Monday past to tell him thanks for giving me the space I needed and sorting out the phone bill, and to let him know that he can come get the rest of his things on Saturday (tomorrow) if that works for him. He replied asking if he can come pack things up tomorrow and then move them the following weekend because he doesn't know how much stuff there is. I waited a day and said that's fine, and let him know he had to be gone by 2:30 (I have to prepare for dinner guests, but I didn't tell him that). I also mentioned that I'm not available any other weekend in February (which was true at the time but the plans since changed) so we'd have to find another date for the move.
Not a peep from him, which is odd. I even went so far as to re-read the email to make sure I wasn't rude or the tone negative. Nope...just a straight up email. I guess he's coming tomorrow, but I don't know whether he plans to move everything, come back later, something else, if he'll be by himself or be dragging his entourage along, nothing. Since he didn't reply I haven't told him about the change of plans in feb for his moving day. Figure I'll do that tomorrow if he shows, assuming he's sticking with his original plan.
I had dinner with his D yesterday. First thing she said was how good I looked and asked what I'd done differently, to which I replied "nothing. I'm just happy. Happier than I've been in years." Which is true. I've come to realize that I was lonely and depressed in my marriage. Who wouldn't be with a PA spouse who says "i love you" every day but witholds sex and emotional intimacy? Words is just that...words.
Sounds like he's spent a lot of time spewing to other people about me, which I don't like at all. It's probably to give the impression his actions were somehow justified. I just hope other people understand that and don't think I'm the horrible person he's made me out to be. Assuming of course that what stepD said wasn't exaggerated. All they'd need to do is look at his life to know the difference. He had it all...a really, really good life.
We talked a lot about H for the first time, about his family of origin. She revealed to me that his father was an alcoholic many years ago, and his mother ruled the roost. Their family never talked about anything...pushed everything out of the way, so clearly he never learned...hence the conflict avoidance.
She also talked about H's past. Most of his previous girlfriends were "blond bimbos with lots of cleavage", and that he'd been engaged previously to a woman he lived with and who had two kids. All of this was news to me since his past was an absolute black box. He apparently said to her that he thought I was jealous of her mother, and that I was afraid they'd get back together, which is absolutely absurd. His mother had told me in the past that she thought his ex (who's been happily married for 20 years) would take him back if he asked. They're both off their rockers.
He told stepD that he can't talk to me, I'm too confrontational, which is absurd. I think he's projecting his anger towards his mother onto me. I was always rational with him, except the time I discovered he was lying to me about ending the affair and gave me false hope that he was coming home. I think I'm allowed that one. Not even since the separation have I been confrontational. I let it all go. But apparently he does talk to his ex-wife. StepD feels, and I would agree, that he talks to her because he has nothing to hide from her. She's known him since they were teenagers, and because they had a child together she's seen his life pass by and the choices he's made within it. I, on the other hand, know nothing. Perhaps he fears I'd judge him, which is unfounded.
He's apparently meeting with stepD's mother today. No one really knows why he asked for this. StepD thinks it has to do with the end date for child support payments, which is silly because he knows they'll continue until she finishes her degree. Part of me wonders now if he's still in love with her...because it's safe - she knows his entire history...nothing to hide, nothing to reveal, nothing to deal with. Another part of me wonders if he's starting to come out of the tunnel by revisiting his past mistakes. Who knows.
I do now fully doubt he ever truly loved me because *he* was never with me, although stepD said he was the most happy and the most confident he'd ever been in his life when he was with me. She and her mom have always theorized that H can't deal with strong women (his mother..), and interestingly enough he's conceded that this might be the case. To me, it's just that he never learned (illiterate and seriously unhealthy father figure who was completely dependent and weak as a result) how to stand up to his mother (this would explain the BDSM and the pics I saw on his account, one of which showed a woman bound and gagged with "I am a f!!!ing pig !hor!" written on her body. And a similar one with "H's !itch" written on her. He was their master...they did this at his instruction. Sad, sad, sad.). His dyslexia probably didn't help in his inability to stand up to her either.
StepD also said he's been saying that I'm "a good person" but that "things just didn't work out". No responsibility...the cookie just crumbled. She's told him repeatedly that I never say anything bad about him, which is true. I speak kindly of him and neutrally of his behavior. He somehow knows how I've been GALing...perhaps she told him but forgets doing so as I have no idea how else he'd have this information. We talked a bit about them going to counselling together (she brought it up), but she's afraid it will turn into a screaming match (apparently he can lose it pretty bad, which I've never seen...always repressed emotions with me). But I told her that the therapist would ensure this didn't happen and that it might be the best thing for him. Who knows if they'll pursue this, but I really think it would unlock things for him.
Last thing she said to me what that it's so sad to see him screw up so badly when he has so much potential, to which I said that he's been going through something pretty deep for a long time and is probably in a lot of pain, and that being compassionate is the best thing for him right now. She seemed to get it.
Anyway, hopefully tomorrow goes well. I'd like to have a better idea of what to expect, but what will be will be.
GWN,
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to come back here and read that he didn't show up or contact you. Many times, they think they have one little thing to hold over your head and once you agree to doing what they have been so determined about, they back off.
GWN, keep your expectations at zero and whatever you do, do not allow him to bait you. Please be sure you make a list of what he removes so that the household/personal inventory is as complete as possible.
Good luck!
Ditto to Snodderly. Have no expectations.
Phew, that's over. It went well and was a lot quicker then I'd expected. I stuck with the no expectations advice, went to yoga before he came, and busied myself while he was here.
When he first arrived it was awkward as expected, but cordial, with the usual "how are you" etc. I broke the ice by asking him if he wanted a coffee.
When he came in the second or third time he stopped in the kitchen, said my name and asked me to come here, so I did, and he asked for a hug, which I gave him. He had tears in his eyes so I asked him if he wanted to talk and he said he just wanted to be forgiven.
I pointed to the chalkboard in my kitchen (that I'd made out of an old oak cupboard door - very nice if I do say so myself!) that had "forgive" written on it. It has helped me to stay focused on doing just that. So I told him I do forgive him and that I can see he's in a lot of pain but I don't know what it's about and he's the only one who can fix it. He said he thinks it's all about confidence related to his dyslexia. I said I think it's deeper, but he said no so I said OK. No pushing. He said he's working on his issues, but I think he might be scratching the surface of the surface. I told him I love him with all my heart (I had tears running down my cheeks at that point) and that's why I'm letting him go. He looked right into my eyes and stroked my cheek. We held each other for another couple of minutes and then went on with it. I focused on my bread baking and he on his packing.
He's gained at least 20 lbs in the 5.5 months since we split. He says 15, but he's a big guy and I can really see it on him. I figure he's wearing a great big pile of drinking and self destruction that went on through fall and winter. He says he's going to the gym now, so maybe he's past the blow out. Strangely enough, he didn't take his ice fishing gear. Almost every weekend when he was with me he was on the ice with his fishing buddy.
I asked him to help me with the charcoal filter for the water system, which he was happy to do. He asked me about other things - the heat bill since I insulated the basement, using the snow blower and changing the oil, you know...the romantic stuff ;-)
A couple of times our history came up. He said he thought my people hate him because my sister held a very long grudge towards an exbf who did her wrong. I said "H, here's the difference. We were married, they weren't. They knew you and loved you. You don't throw love away like that. My family and friends were upset about what happened but they didn't understand it. It's not in your character. You're the only one who understands your choices. So no, they don't hate you." He didn't say anything.
As he was finishing up he asked for another hug and gave me a kiss on the forehead. He told me I'd have been really proud of the meal he cooked recently. He said whatever I was cooking smelled really good, so as he was leaving he and I sampled the bread, and he said it would be really good with oil and vinegar. We were actually laughing together and really relaxed by the time he left. But I read nothing into anything. It is what it is. Nothing more.
So next time he wants to bring two of his friends with him to clear out the rest of his things. I had a funny feeling when we talked about this...can't really explain it. It's like he HAS to do this for the sake of doing it...keep following the ball sort of thing. He doesn't seem to be in any rush, just wants a week's notice. I think I'm going to wait until March. As well as this went I'm not sure I want to do it again in two weeks. He's OK with it being March.
His last words were "I'm glad you're doing really well". I said thanks and closed the garage door. OW didn't come up, as she never does. I will ask that question only if he wants to reconcile. Until then, don't know, don't care.
I honestly feel OK. I guess I've completely detached....what will be will be, and I'm no longer driven to try and control the outcome, although I do want it to go a certain way.
So...is this simply the interaction of two people who have moved on? Or is there hope?
GWN,
Well, I'm surprised he showed up after all of the huffing and puffing he's done about coming there. You did a great job in keeping yourself together. Nice work!
I don't blame you, I'd wait a bit too. Did he say who the guys would be? You don't want a bunch of strangers in your home, not even for a short period of time. Have you done a walk thru to ensure that he took only what he was suppose to take? If not, I would suggest you do it. Sometimes, they tend to take things that they shouldn't and you won't notice those items missing for a long time.
Once the mlc ball starts rolling, it's difficult for them to turn back. It's harder to do the work, so the ball will roll down hill faster now for him. The weight gain is exactly what you thought it might be, i.e., drinking, fast food, etc. As for the ow, I would bide my time on that one. That issue may not come up w/him for a very long time.
Do something nice for yourself this evening...you deserve it!
I'm glad it went well, GWN. Pointing to your sign, was brilliant.
Thanks Snodderly and BeingMe.
H only took things that were his. He asked about things he was unsure of. He was only in the garage and the basement, so there's nothing really of concern to me there. He wasn't in the house apart from that. I'm fine with the friends he plans to bring here. I've spoken to both of them since the split.
I talked to a friend a bit about yesterday's happenings. People knew he was coming and wanted to know how it went. She got the details.
I think she believes I was a bit hasty in the forgiveness thing, that he basically was forgiven without having to earn it in any way. While she understands that I need to forgive him for my own well being and to move forward, she thinks it sends him a lesson that forgiveness comes easy, without any reflection or effort on his part.
The other thing she brought up was that he probably doesn't know what specifically I'm forgiving him for. He probably thinks it's the cheating alone, but in reality it's much more. So we're not on the same page. She suggested that if I address this, I should start by simply asking him what he thinks he needs to be forgiven for. I believe he still doesn't recognize the magnitude of his behavior and its impact throughout our entire marriage.
I'm not sure where I stand on this. Do I ask him what he thinks he needs to be forgiven for? Do I point out the things I'm forgiving him for, so that he has something to think about (which dangerously verges on R talk)? Do I just leave it and if an opportunity comes up, address it then?
The biggest part of me says to go very dark again.
What are your thoughts?
GWN,
I would leave the "foregiveness" conversation alone for now. He's not far enough along to even understand why you would foregive him. There will come a time when he's more settled and will have a better understanding of why and what you are foregiving him for. Now is not the time to go into this "deep" conversation.
As for your friend, until she's walked in your shoes, her comments are about her own feelings and how she would react. Keep in mind, she is on the outside looking in and her opinions could very well change if this happened to her. Listen to your heart...if you foregave him because you wanted to do it, then so be it. Don't second guess yourself.
I would now go dark and allow God to work on him.
So I spent last weekend with my sister and her husband about a six hour drive from here. It was a nice weekend, skating on their friend's pond (they build the coolest straw bale house and live completely off the grid...it's awesome!), party one afternoon with lots of couples and kids, too much red wine. When I left yesterday morning I cried for about 90 minutes. Then I cried for about an hour as I approached my city. Then I cried this morning driving into work, and again on my way home. Driving of course.
I don't know where this is coming from all of a sudden. I just feel so sad. Maybe it's seeing all those people on the weekend who love each other. All I ever wanted was to build a life with someone I love and who loves me. I thought I had that but then he decided I didn't. Or maybe it's the changing seasons. This is around the time where we'd start thinking about putting the boat in the water and making summer plans, and planning our Cuba getaway (which I'm doing with some friends anyway). Or maybe, as a friend says, I'm strong enough now to process the emotions properly. I just hope it goes away soon.
But the real reason for this post is the email from H. When we parted ways last weekend on a good note, I said that if he didn't hear from me by yesterday it's because I'm not around for him to come get the rest of his things but not to worry they're safe. He was OK with that. Plans came up so I didn't call.
Today I get an email. Subject: "sorry to bother you". Message: "Hi W. I am guessing I am unable to pick my stuff up on Saturday which is fine. I know it's safe. Also when do you want the cable and phone cut off at the house?" Closing: "Have a great day. H"
I don't want to fall into analysis paralysis, but....huh? Does he want to help me (we talked about cancelling cable and phone to reduce my bills)? Does he want to just hurry up and get it done? Does he want to know that I'm here? It just seems so...hot and cold? Wishy washy? I guess nobody can be inside his head except for him (and a bunch of pecking chickens), but that's just a weird email. We agreed I'd contact him.
He can't get his things this weekend, or next for that matter because I'm GALing.
Should I reply, and how??
GWN,
I would simply reply that you are not going to be around for him to pick up his stuff this weekend. You do not need to elaborate on why, what or where of your business to him.
His memory is extremely short and this is very normal for them. If you want him to cancel the phone and cable, advise his of this, but keep a copy of the email or text. You just might have to remind him later on that you've already discussed this with him previously.
I might be giving him more credit than I should, but he just very well may be wanting to see if you will text him back right away and also to see what you are up to. Can you wait until tomorrow to text him back? I honestly don't think he's trying to hurt you, but they do tend to plan PA games w/us.
Thanks, Snodderly. I'll email him back tomorrow to tell him that he's right, I'm not around this weekend, and that I need to check out a couple of things before making a decision on the phone and cable.
I need to remember to not talk to a friend about any of this. She's very motherbearish and has a bit of a hate-on for H. When I told her about the email she said he just hasn't got the cojones to tell me he wants his stuff back and is too lazy to get rid of the phone and cable.
Maybe she's right and I'm being foolishly optimistic that he has anything left in his heart for me. But it's hard because sometimes I need someone to talk to and she's the only one there.
Must not cry tomorrow. I have my jewellery making class in the evening so hopefully I'll be suitably distracted by that.
I believe they have a lot in their heart for us, but can't deal with it, and usually don't, for a long time.
'Lost to their true selves' is how a therapist I know puts it.
Sadness and grief is very very normal. It is MLC behaviour that is not.
GWN,
I know what you mean by wanting someone to talk to.
I have stopped talking to my BFF about MLC because her reaction to what H is doing was visceral. I know it's because she cares about me and believes MLC is an excuse for H. I found myself telling her multiple times that it was not an excuse, but an explanation.
I finally gave up because unless you experience MLC first hand, there is no real way to explain it to someone to make them understand.
I come to this board because it's where people understand what I'm going through and their reactions are cerebral. So much wisdom to tap into here.