Hello, all.
My H filed for a divorce 2 months ago. He immediately put it on "hold", and says he wants to recover. Our M problmes started a few years ago, and I beleive he is in full swing MLC, tho he says "no".
About the MLC attributes:
The denial, the immaturity and the mean actions and hate are personally killing me.
He used to be very passive agressive. I wanted that to stop (always think about what you are asking for, because) now it is direct, in your face actions,
He never (rarely) appologies, says mean terrible things -- then says he wants the M. His denial is juvenile.
There have been so many stunts pulled. In my face and behind my back.
Our counselor says she sees so much anger between us that she doubts we can become "one team".
I am a good wife. I have my flaws, and have tried to recover. but the selfish, childish actions are takng their toll.
I don't know how long I can live like this.
I would switch counselors for one. He/She already has a negative view of your marriage and that is not good. Get the DB books and read them or read back over them and work on you. Trust me this does work I have been doing it now for three weeks and it is amazing the change. You want to surround yourself with positive people about your marriage if you really want to save it.
I have a question kickme,
Are you mentally ill?
Here are links to your first few threads. If possible try to stay on one thread until you get to 10 pages or 100 posts. It makes it easier for everyone to follow along and see what advice you have been given.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...531#Post1897531http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...568#Post1904568Have you read the resources. I can put some links on your thread if you need them.
Kick me, so sorry you are here, but you are in a good place for advice! I would suggest you switch therapist's too. When you call to get information on a new one, make it very clear that your H is in MLC and that you are going there to save your marriage and there is to be no discussion of any other options at all, D is not on the table at all!!
Anger is a hard thing! I have had anger issues according to my XH for years! I was not always the perfect, nice all the time wife, but I don't think I was off the hook mean or angry! I tell him now all the time, that "yes, now I am angry, and I am angry about what you have done to our family, me, and our kids, but anger is a human emotion and I am learning how to deal with my anger in a more positive way" He could careless. He is in MLC, was with an OW, but now he just runs around like he is 21 again!
Tell us more of your story! Do you think there is an OW? Mine turned so mean when he was having the affair, it was crazy! Had always treated me nice, spoke to me nice, called me many times a day, told me each day I was the love of his life, etc. Then, almost overnight was the meanest person I had ever known! He would say such awful things! When I did find out about the OW and we started therapy, the therapist said he was mean out of guilt and it was a good thing, cause it meant he had guilt which some don't. Well, in our situation, the guilt didn't matter, the OW was saying and doing everything right while I was home crying and a mess. Long story, could go on and on, but this is about you!
Get the books or re-read them if you already have them, follow it to the letter, if I had found this site and those books when all mine started, we would still be married, I am sure of it! I did everything wrong for so long, it seems to be too late for us. But, it has helped me to DB for me, made me see things I never would have otherwise and changed me forever!
Keep coming here to vent, don't share much with friends or family!
A
It started on my 40th birthday- (he is the same age).
He cam home (lightswitch had been flipped) and said
"I was going to change"
"I was going to change if I liked it or not"
"I was going to change..or else"
He did at this time have a "crush" on coworker, but I do not beleive it was a PA (she played him like a violin and popped an engangement from her longtime b.f. - I think using my H as a jealousy)
We had a huge, huge fight. I got arrested. (I refused to talk/speak on my own behalf-- bad, bad idea.). Ultimately everything legal was erased, but I still have terrible time with PTSD and anxiety from this scenario. Now he says he s sorry, but I do not feel like he really understands.
He has a history of passive agressive "stunts".
He was never allowed to act out as a child, he was punished severely for any wrongdoings-
He used to be so laid back, he liked it when I made descisions. Now, he says I am "too bossy".
Maybe I am. But for 20 years it worked OK.
I have a question kickme,
Are you mentally ill?
Is this a joke or are you trying to make a point?
Our new counselor is very different.
My H is going thru transitions, he does not want to be "laid back", he wants to assert himself. He needs (IMHO) to address this with his mother, but I feel I am the authority around.
He also does not admit many wrong doings. He finger points and blames. He reasons like a 14 year old (as per our counselor)
MLC. and a boat of anger, too.
It is better in my face than behind my back. May be a step in the right direction of solving something.
He can be mean and nasty. But he can also be very nice.
This was not the man he was/I knew for 20 years.
If he wants to divorce, why does he not just "finish the job?"
I do love him, and I am hoping that this is "MLC blaming". I did have huge issues with PTSD and anxiety. I still do not sleep. I caused a lot of the problems in the last 4 years- I still have issues forgiving and forgetting.
We have limped alon through this for 4 years. I was hoping there was a light-
Now I just feel that his anger is just getting more built up.
Kick me,
When I did find out about the OW and we started therapy, the therapist said he was mean out of guilt and it was a good thing, cause it meant he had guilt which some don't. Well, in our situation, the guilt didn't matter, the OW was saying and doing everything right while I was home crying and a mess.
A
Sometimes I think he is mean because he wants to divorce, and he wants to push me to do it. or he is guilty about wanting a divorce.
One thing I know- I doubt I will ever get the truth.
Kickme,
I’ve gone through your other threads and made comments from those as well as from this thread.
He says he loves me and wants the marriage.
And two months after this post he filed for divorce…did he say what changed? Did he say why?
MLCers cycle and change their minds, I’m just curious if he even acknowledged his contradictions.
I beleive he is in full swing MLC, tho he says "no".
Yeah, MLCers deny MLC. Do not discuss it with him.
He is SUPER religious now, and still sanctimoneous (but also an internet porn fan) I DON'T GET IT!
He has a deep sense of shame. He has built a self-righteous wall as his defense and projects all that is bad onto you. To do otherwise would be to acknowledge that his unhappiness and personal problems are within and his shame is too deep to admit that right now.
MLCers are filled with guilt and that is still an issue, but for him shame seems a large factor. Shame is worse thatn guilt. Guilt can be healthy, it is about behaviour, whereas shame is a feeling of inner badness—character rather than behavioural.
He seems to be ready for relationship again
That was four months ago and clearly he was not and is not ready for a relationship. And yet that is MLC-Normal. MLCers cycle. At times they may seem normal. At times they may think they want a relationship with you again, they may or may not seem normal when feeling this.
What made you think he seemed ready for a relationship again—when most of your posts that day were about his weird MLC behaviour and described Monster behaviour along with confusion?
he acts offended that I don't trust him. I sit, incredulous at this. DO all MLC'rs have such entitlement?
Yes, but it is not entitlement in all cases or at all times. They really are oblivious.
he does not show empathy or humility. (I am not saying he does not have it, but MLC'rs can not express it very well, I think.)
Narcissism is high in MLC and a lack of empathy is a trait of narcissism.
My H filed for a divorce 2 months ago. He immediately put it on "hold", and says he wants to recover. Our M problmes started a few years ago, and I beleive he is in full swing MLC, tho he says "no".
What does he say he wants to recover from?
This is like a slip of the tongue. It may have been subconscious, or not, or a momentary glimpse of understanding, but this indicates a recognition that his problems are internal. These brief moments often slip quickly away, but they are still seeds growing in the darkness.
Now he says he s sorry, but I do not feel like he really understands.
He doesn’t understand. Your counselor also mentioned he did not seem remorseful. Saying
I’m sorry does not mean they are or that they are going to follow through with actions. Some mean it and are still too deep in MLC addictions to follow through with actions. It took my husband a few years before his actions met his words.
He used to be so laid back, he liked it when I made descisions. Now, he says I am "too bossy".
Maybe I am. But for 20 years it worked OK.
OR it seemed to work okay from your perspective. He may not have liked it hen---you said he was passive aggressive. Or he grew tired of something that he used to like, people change.
But…are you using
for 20 years it worked OK as an excuse to justify being bossy and keep doing it? You need to change too.
My H is going thru transitions, he does not want to be "laid back", he wants to assert himself. He needs (IMHO) to address this with his mother, but I feel I am the authority around.
Sure, this may have started with his mother, but you‘ve admitted you are bossy. That would indicate that you both need to address it within your relationship too.
If he wants to divorce, why does he not just "finish the job?"
If he really wanted a divorce, he would finish the job.
Counselor TWO IC counselors think he is a horrible spouse…
They are correct. MLCers are horrible spouses. Separate the MLCer from the man he will become…you need a counselor who will do that with you. Horrible now is about his behaviour, not his character; he is broken.
My IC does not understand why I would put up with this behavior. He believes in MLC, but does not think I should put up with his treatment.
Does your counselor mean that he doesn’t understand why you want to or are remaining married? Or are you being a Doormat by actually
putting up with his abuse?
Your counselor is correct; you (no one) should put up with the abuse. Wanting to reconcile your marriage is another matter entirely. I did not want the MLC Monster…do any of us?
…it is the stupid hateful behaviors that have hurt me the worst.
HOW, exactly, does one "get over" them? My IC told me to "just try to do it!"
You do not get
over, you must go through. Your counselor’s answer is the type of answer given when the person doesn’t know
how and will not admit it. It’s okay to not know how; we don’t know how either, but we may have some ideas. But different people react and respond differently, what works for you will not work for someone else.
Our counselor says she sees so much anger between us that she doubts we can become "one team".
Is this the same counselor?
I agree with the others, find a new counselor. What do you want? Do you want to be married—not to the MLC Monster, but to your husband? Do you want to be married to the man he can become? Are you Standing? If you are Standing, you need a counselor who is more supportive of your Stand. If not, this counselor may work for you—but you don’t sound as though you want out, you sound fed-up, confused and frustrated. You feel hopeless and are wondering what you should do, and if it’s even worth it—is there even hope?
Is the new counselor a different than those referenced above?
Read the resources. His meanness is typical for a Replayer. As Depression approaches some become more overtly angry a an avoidance of the Depression. Near the end of the crisis, as they recognize and process the damage they have done, they may cycle back for awhile. It is common that they seem the most chaotic when closes to the MLC tunnel entrance and exit where the light at the beginning and end shows them what they are leaving and what they have done respectively.
Keep posting here—regularly and keep up with counseling.
Oh and I recommend you change your username. Focus on being strong rather than someone who is kicked around.
HUGS
No it is a serious question.
Are you mentall ill?
Better yet...
How did you feel with me asking you that?
Willing to bet that 'upset' was the nicer way of the terms.
Because suggesting to someone that they are having a Mid Life Crisis...is alot like saying. "I think you're [censored] nuts. How could you not want me?"
And I'm not sure how many people crazy or otherwise would agree that there might be something wrong in their noodle.
Maybe I am. But for 20 years it worked OK.
It probablly won't be ok if you want another 20.
You're an LBS now. Left Behind Spouse, and the successful LBSers are the ones who realize they should change too. What don't you like in yourself...are you too bossy? To controlling? Look deep in the mirror, and be honest with yourself...really honest with yourself, work on killing the things you don't like in that mirror.
Thanks for the info about combining threads, I almost forgot about them. (OP)
I have a new MC now- the last one did not beleive MLC'rs come "out of it", he only wanted to judge current behavior, I wanted to look down the road. He did make good points tho.
Yes, I am a god fearing busy body. I work all the time and have accomplished much. Think Martha S on crack. I like being me, I built a pretty good life for myself (and an Ed.S degree out of thin air,) but you guys are right, I do need to change.
He wanted that kind of person, when we were young. I constantly was trying to figure out how to make him happy. Now, I guess he wants to be more "in control". According to IC, more in control of me. What was attractive at first, can become the worst hated trait of a spouse.
example. He does not like to be called names. I used to do this (out of frustraition).
I have not called him a name in 8 weeks (like stoppin smoking..) I only seem to get more of his anger, instead of praise. (whaaaaa?)
I emailed out my calender (he wants to be in the loop more). He crucified me for not gathering his info first and putting it on my calender before sending it to kids. (that is why I sent it out in the first place!)
He litteraly said I was belittling his role by not writing in his info! -- he can write in his own info-- fercrying outloud.
I try to do well, seem to be getting my buns kicked for my effort. (changeback behavior?)
what is that jumpy thing with the text box???
As far as MLC goes, without this sites information I would have checked myself into the hospital, because I was sure I was going crazy. Thinking back it all makes better sense.
I do not understand why he is mad that I AM DOING WHAT HE IS ASKING. It is had to shoot when the target moves. (NPI)
thanks for reading. I.am.about.to.flip.out.
I have a new MC now- the last one did not beleive MLC'rs come "out of it", he only wanted to judge current behavior, I wanted to look down the road. He did make good points tho.
Regardless of whether or not he believed in it, I feel he had the right idea.
You should be living in the here and now instead of trying to look down the road.
I only seem to get more of his anger, instead of praise. (whaaaaa?)
Ever stop and think that he might be frustrated because you ARE changing the game a bit? Just because you're met with anger dosen't mean the changes aren't good ones. Follow me?
I try to do well, seem to be getting my buns kicked for my effort. (changeback behavior?)
We can't answer that.
All I can say is this.....
You should be changing for you and only you. Be better for YOU!
All this back and forth stuff tends to lead me to believe that you are trying to change him with your changes. (figure that one out
)
Be better for you. That way it lasts and you come out ahead no matter what happens.
I am trying to change. I do not understand the anger and resentment at my accomplishmetns.
I know he is really really angry. (altho he says he is not)
I know I am really angry, too.
I thought the new items (cleaning up my side of the street) would be seen better. I did not expect all this criticism.
My question is, Is this unusual? (When you first realy change I mean.)
It seems that I have held the high road most of the time, I have been putting things into the "recovery". But I am seeing agression back.
Confused.
I know he is really really angry. (altho he says he is not)
There is nothing you can do about this.
I know I am really angry, too.
You can control YOU. This is where the detachment comes in.
Do you need the detachment link?
Have you read the resources? Do you need the links?
Take the focus off of your H and put it on you.
You are going to keep hearing this until it sinks in.
Kick
Here is the detachment link:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/I will add only this to what OP said:
Take the focus off of your H and put it on you.
You are going to keep hearing this until it sinks in.
Read the link. Very scary stuff.
Thanks.
Will take time.
I am going to assume from your last post that you do not have the links for the resources and I will give them to you.
This is a BIG homework assignment.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1539436Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Why they run:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=67406&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...6668#Post526668Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Remember that in the stages of MLC it does NOT go 1,2,3,4,5,6
but can get all mixed up and repeat itself and have more than one stage at once.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Kickme,
I do not understand the anger and resentment at my accomplishmetns.
It may not be something understandable, but let’s look at a few possibilities.
A common one is the
too little too late scenario—the perception that you are changing only now as a last resort. He may believe the changes are thus manipulative and not authentic or he is hurt and frustrated because it took this situation to get you to change.
Misery loves company. There is a developmental gap between LBSs and MLCers. MLCers regress and LBSs progress. There is often a conscious or more likely unconscious desire to close this gap. MLCers are in a sort of arrested development and thus rather than attempting to rise to your development they try to regress your development.
They feel life is hopeless and thus they cannot continue with you—since in their minds you are the reason life is hopeless. But they love you and thus need anger to fuel their escape and create justifications. It is not about you.
Is this unusual? (When you first really change I mean.)
Um, no. this is MLC-normal. Some may cycle backwards to you in their confusion, but if your changes brought about immediate/quick progress and lasting positive changes in him, I would say that it was likely not a midlife crisis. Understand that immediate/quick is relative—a year is quick.
MLC gets worse before it gets better—much worse.
If this is MLC and you think—or worse, expect—that your changes will yield positive results in the short-term, you are setting yourself up for a let-down. There are often threads with titles about how DB is not working because the MLCer is still seeking a divorce or leaving. MLCers seek divorce or leave—not all file; it’s not called a crisis because the rollercoaster ride is fun.
Focus on yourself and accept the process of the crisis.
HUGS
OK I have not done all that reading. I am trying hard to digest the fist pages.
It is unbelieveable. I live with my H. I sometimes wish I did not.
Tonight, he told me that he has been "keeping notes" on me for over 4 years! he has also secretly voice recorded me in the past- trust is not important to him at all I think.
In the last few weeks I have been called a liar, dishonest, evil and he insinuated that I had an "inappropriate relationship" in the past. (HE had the EA, not me)
He also tells me frequently to "pull my head out of my ass."
I do not know how long I can put up with this. I understand detachment. I get it. But every time it happens It tears me down just a little bit more.
He says he loves me and wants the marriage, but I think he has already decided to go, and these behavioral attacks are just trying to run me off.
He does not act like someone who wants a marriage, I am confused and saddened. Tonight he also rationalized his past antics AGAIN. He apologises but says "but" and gives 500 reasons why heacted the way he did.
Makes the apology useless, IMHO.
I have been polite and resisting angry outbursts at all costs.
Really I wish he would go away sometimes, I think at least I would have peace.
Wow. I thought I had it bad because my h says hateful things to me via text message. I never thought how it would be if he was still here. While I want him back here, I don't think I could take the hatred face to face. It was hard enough when he was just being distant towards me.
I think you have stumbled upon the realization that it's horrible
either way! If they move out, we're miserable, missing them and wanting to work on the marriage. If they're still in the home but hateful, we can't stand it and just want them to get away from us and be quiet.
So, I think it's best either way to not react the way they want us to. (which IMO would be very hard for me to do face to face) When I do that, h gets even angrier and more hateful. So, I've learned now to make whatever communication we have as brief as possible. I also say "I'm sorry you feel that way." My h hates that since he wants to argue and I have learned not to give in to that.
The other thing that has helped me is to think of my h as being handicapped or having some kind of mental breakdown. That's easier for me to understand than the thought of him instantly hating me after all these years. That and when I've been face to face with him, I watch his eyes. I've seen the dead look, but I've also seen the look of love even though the words he says are full of hate. What's going on inside his head must be exhausting and confusing to him. I pray every day for a complete but faster end to his crisis because I can't stand the thought of him being in this much pain.
By the way, I don't know that I would totally believe it when he tells you he has been keeping notes on you and recording you. They say all kinds of weird things and I've found out most of the time they're lying! Just trying to stick that knife in deeper. They're in pain so they want to cause us pain. And I think in a demented way they want to push us away from them because they feel so bad about themselves, they want us to be with someone who will treat us better. Let's face it, we're having a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
So don't take too much, if any of it to heart. It will drive you crazy if you don't.
Kickme, There is so much wisdom in 1000ships post. Working on and achieving detachment is so important, but I think it is even more important if the spouse still lives at home. Detachment is a protection for the LBS if it can be used as a shield. The faster the LBS gets it into their head that this crisis wasn't caused by something they did, said, didn't do, didn't say, etc. the easier it is to stop reacting to and start protecting themselves from the spew the MLCer throws out there.
Pain is the driving force that makes the MLCer lash out. It is emotional pain so intense that it can manifest into physical pain as well. As hurtful as it is for us LBSers to hear and witness what the MLCer dishes out it doesn't compare to what the MLCer is feeling. The saving component for us LBSers is that we, if we choose, can learn and understand what is happening to our S where they do not have the mental capacity at this time to realize why they are doing what they do. Until the MLCer looks inside themselves and resolves those internal issues they will not realize it is not the external things that are causing their misery, such as the spouse, children, responsibility or whatever they're blaming it on. Therefore, plain and simple, knowledge is indeed, power.
The bottom line in all this is that even if you were the perfect husband/wife, if your spouse is geared for a MLC there would be nothing you could have done to stop or prevent it. Delaying it maybe, but it will eventually catch up to them and they will enter into it with a vengeance.
Detachment is hard to achieve, but once you do it is a relief. It allows you to step back from the drama of the MLCer and begin the vital work on yourself. The most important thing is that you come out on the other side of your journey and know that you will be better than OK and able to handle whatever way your sitch turns out.
(((Hugs)))
1000S and CK thank you. There is a lot of food for thought in these posts.
My issue is that I know what I contributed to this mess. HE is not totally to blame..
But from now on... I am taking charge of my anxiety/panic.
I really have been improving over years (old complaints) But I have been "DEAD SEXY spot on" (no AO's) for about 9 weeks.
And I get a tsunami of hate in reply. He is being impossible. I shoot ofr the target (what he says he wants) and the BLEEPING target moves! (now my "sins" are other things)
I guess I just can't "pull my head out of my ass" fast enough.
venting...venting...venting.
He seriously was not this way for 20 years. HE is BIG in the church group-- thinks he is just a "great guy".
I think he had a Freaudian slip yesterday. WHen I asked him about the "notes" he has been keeping, I said "They are not really going to heop you get anything. All they are is your opinions of how you think I have been acting.. no one really cares. The only purpose I see in you bringing this up/keeping them is to belittle me".
His reply?... along the lines of; "That's quite O.K. if it is degrading/humiliating to you.".... (wha? why is it "OK" to humiliate me?)
I am going back to re read. The LBS thread was interesting.
I really think he wants to go. But does not have the Kahones to do it. HE can threaten with papers, and mean things, but he is What comes out of his mouth, and his actions do not add up. I have told him that I am watching his actions.
(But of course, my interpretations of his actions are always "misguided and wrong")
so very, very sad.
I think he thinks he is "detaching" from me everytime he walks out. If we have a conversation, if it gets uncomfortabel for him, he storms out. I really see this as an excuse to go.
I do not have AO's, call names or anything. I just sit there with my heart on my sleave and he denies me.
I don't know how long I can take this. I live with the divorce filing over my head. Recovery seems impossible.(waiting for other shoe to fall)
MC pointed that out, too.
He will not listen. MC says the balance of power is akilter .sp? and for trust and recconection to grow- balance needs to be established.
He has promised to stop lying to me. (Big trust issue). Last night I found out he DID tell his mother about divorce filings. (he knows I want privacy around --not entertainment for his family-- with M)
Small lie (i thought he told her-- he denied it)
BUT IT IS STILL ANOTHER LIE. I went all panicky-
He just says his way or tough [censored].
He refuses. Tells me to go "pick up my paperwork" if I don't like it. I feel like a dog.
If he has decided to go- why the h$ll does not he GO? This is torture.
Kick
Have you done your reading assignment? I can only tell you that it will continue to be torture until you decide it won't be any longer.
Easy to say hard to do. I am going to heap a bunch of
Focus on YOU
Focus on YOU
Focus on YOU
Focus on YOU
Focus on YOU
On YOU. And
DETACH
DETACH
DETACH
DETACH
DETACH
You won't really hear me until you are ready but I will keep trying. You WILL be ready when you've had enough of:
Your goal should not be balancing to the power or fighting his actions to take more power from you.
DBing 101: act AS IF and do a 180. But really all that means is detach and focus on yourself.
Don't ARGUE. Listen and VALIDATE. It doesn't mean you agree. Why would you agree with a crazy person? Why would fight with a crazy person?
Kickme,
I live with the divorce filing over my head. Recovery seems impossible.
Recovery is not within grasp at this point. I was going to tell you that it is not an appropriate goal, but that would be hypocritical of me as well as inaccurate. But it can be your Big Goal. If you were in Med School the Big Goal would be to become an MD, or a specialty beyond that. But what must you do to achieve that goal?
Set recovery aside and work on the present. Do what you can and change what you can.
He’s in MLC; he’s not going to listen. This is one of those things that you can’t change; learn to Accept. Your MLCer can change it, but he will only do that when he chooses.
for trust and reconnection to grow- balance needs to be established.
True, but that is not going to happen now. If you work on that as your goal, you will burn out quickly.
He just says his way or tough [censored].
Straight from the MLC script. I know it sucks, but fighting it will only make things worse. Accept.
You get a choice too, but you cannot control him.
If he has decided to go- why the h$ll does not he GO? This is torture.
He will. You can either speed that up and kick him out, or let him make the decision. There is no right or wrong here. I don’t advocate either because it depends on what the LBS can handle. If the LBS can withstand an at-home MLCer, then do it—you can withstand the torture, but how much? But most MLCer will leave eventually. That doesn’t mean they will not return, but most MLC marriages experience a separation.
While he is at home you are learning valuable communication and coping skills for dealing with an MLCer. As you detach and treat you MLCer with respect, dignity while also treating yourself well by setting respect-boundaries, your MLCer will file your behaviour away for later processing. They remember how we treat them. In the moments they are hateful and spew because they think we are standing in their way. It is only later that they are grateful. Years later.
MLC averages 2-7 years and I am of the opinion that 2 years is on the short side. Expect 3-4+. You need to consider whether you are willing and able to handle that and if it is worth it. There are no guarantees for marital reconciliation after that.
Can you Stand?
Will you Stand?
Is it worth Standing if there is no reconciliation?
Answer those for yourself. But knowing a little about MLC may help you in answering. That hateful spewing is the MLC Monster. And recover may not seem possible for a very long time. If you are like most, you will at some point believe it is hopeless, but reconciled couples felt that way too.
HUGS
They will lie.
Telling them not to lie, and expecting them not to lie...
Is like telling your dog not to eat the steak that is on floor while you go get the broom and dustpan. AND expecting him not to eat it.
Getting mad about it?
Similar in its pointlessness. There are SOOOOO many ways to get dispiritied the idea is to learn which ones you don't set yourself up for.
You want to conserve your hope and energy for thsi fight, not waste it it on pointless areas. They will lie, they will be rude, they will not care about you...you want to make him? Go pound sand for an hour instead at least after that you'll have some excercise.
Kickme,
Hey there.
I hope you are feeling better. I just read a few of the last postings on this thread and it sounds like you are going through the hard struggle as most of us are or did.
I would suggest that you maybe take a short vacation. Or just go to a friends house and say your gonna take a mini vacation and just spend some time away.
I can feel your frustrations coming through in your words - I can remember being there and feeling like the whole thing would never end. I feel much better now. there is hope.
My friends would force me to still go on our vacations that MY H and I had planned on doing together and with those groups of friends. These big combined trips happened twice while he was away for the year. I would go with our group of friends and he would not be invited along.
It was hard to go away. But I really needed it. I forced myself to try and look like I was having fun when I really was dying inside. My friends were supportive.
ANYWAY, the point is that both times I went on little breaks or vacations - my H would get really curious and jealous, and when I would get home he would want to actually spend time with me to make sure he didnt miss out on too much. It scared him to see that my life was not standing still. He hated to see me look like I was moving on too fast and far with out him.
The best thing to do in this MLC situation is to Focus on making YOU happy and healthy too.
The MLC hate is so hard to deal with, it was actually making me feel hatred towards my H. So I also decided to start myself a journal in which every day I would write down the negatives (thoughts and things that happened) and the positives from each day. As the year went on, I could definetly see a difference in the size of the negatives getting smaller than the size of the positives column. Meaning, I was getting stronger and dealing with MLC crap better as the year went on and it showed me there can be a brighter tommorow.
I want you to know that my H and I are back together and very happy. We struggeled a lot to get where we are, but we are both proud of the work we put forth to make the reconciliation possible. The MLC crap slowly wears off as they wake up. It does not happen over night. Hang in there.
TIPPER
Kick,
You have gotten a lot of good responses. Your h is not going to change over night. He is angry and no matter what you do it will make him angrier. He does not hate you he hates himself. He needs to make you out to be the bad guy to justify his behaviour. Like you have been told by others on this board, take the focus off of your h and put it onto yourself. You cannot do anything about your h's mlc. You need to let him go. He has a long journey ahead of him and you are not invited. You are on your own journey so focus on making the changes for yourself. This is not about your h or even saving your m. Right now it has to be about you or you will go crazy.
Please listen to all of these people on here. Angry mlcers are among the most difficult to live with. If you do not detach you will go crazy. Do not take anything he says personally.
J3B, Tip and MM:
Thank you. I can't beleive this is the same man. He says he loves me, but the TANGLE of "conditions" are terrible.
He would rather divorce that give an inch. I don't know how small I can make myself.
I don't know weather to shoot, sit or S$#@!
I have calmed down. Last night I left the house (anxiety and do not want to fight) and I drove for hours. I can't sit still.
I parked my car to snooze, a cop pulled up (guess they have been having break ins around there). HOW embarrassing. I had to tell him all my biz- he left.
I must have looked really upset, because he asked me if was OK- if I had "taken anything" (I guess pills?) I was just trying to get some rest. An officer who works at my school is his boss. I told him to check with Keith if he didn't believe me.
But now I have to talk to Keith.
Kick,
This is going to be one of the hardest things you EVER do, no matter what course you take and it is because it is actually all your choice.
If you fight the D or go along with it, it is your choice.
Alot of the other bad hard things you experience...you do just that experience them...like a leaf in the wind. Loosing someone...not your choice.
However this fight is.
And you want to plan your battle accordingly.
This is not a game, but it plays like one. And this is not a dance, but there are steps you both shall dance to. This is not something you can plan..but you better have some plans for it.
This is the most contrary thing you will do.
And...hopefully soon, you will be thankful for it.
Seriously. I know it seems like I'm talking out my ass with that...I am not. Ask around.
I know it seems like I'm talking out my ass with that...I am not. Ask around.
He's not ^^^^^^^
The way I see it, I have 3 choices..
#1. the MB way, kinda like swallow it all and be sweet as pie for 6 weeks, persue him (sweetly) and bite the tounge off.
#2. Attempt to tread water without making a splash. (but waiting for what?) Disengage and bend like the reed in the wind.
#3. Take a stand. and probably lose.
........yup. that's about it.
Tip...how long?
Sounds like jail. (Pssssst. How long you in for?)
I have been at this about 4 years, but did not click until 2 years ago.
Is there such a thing as a half ass MLCr? in and out?
If there is, I got one.
I don't think any MLC so far is "typical" and I've been reading this stuff for just about a month... may not seem like a lot, but it's been every day all day.
Kickme,
You have NO control over anything in his MLC, you only have control over YOU.
You are so far within his drama, that you don't know which end is up...and I feel for you, because at one time, I was just like you.
It took me three months post-bomb to get what I had to do, and that was focus on ME...I could NOT do ANYTHING for him.
I had to learn to detach from his drama, the more I argued with him, the worse it all got, and I nearly lost him over it.
He had to be let go to go through, and HOPEFULLY come back to me.
They not only leave in a physical way, but in a emotional way as well.
There is NO guarantees in this, only what you can do for YOU during this time.
This is an emotional battle within your husband, and you CANNOT do anything to fix it..you didn't break it...it is all about him.
You've got to detach before you go absolutely crazy trying to figure this out, and there's NO figuring to it...nothing you can do.
I KNOW how you feel; I KNOW the sleepless nights, I KNOW the feeling that the rug's been yanked from under you.
But until I "got it"...I suffered, just as you're suffering now.
There are NO time limits on this, no guarantees that when/if he comes out that he will be the same person you knew.
Life as you knew it, is finished, with, hopefully a better one waiting for later on, when this madness is done; regardless of how it all goes.
Whether your marriage makes it or not, you've got to do what's best for YOU, learn to look within, and prepare to grow through this trial.
You can't deal with him in a rational way, it's NOT possible; this IS MLC.
So, you detach, owning your part of what went wrong in your marriage/life, again, growing through this trial.
When he put you on a path of your own making, he made it about YOU.
There are NO typical MLCs, each one is different, and each one has its quirks, bumps in the road, and obstacles.
Read the resources, ask questions, hopefully, it will click for you. The longer you're stuck within his drama, the less time you have for YOU.
It all takes TIME to complete; if it ever does.
It's hard, I know, I've been there.
You know, kicked, it took me a lot of time and a lot of reading and a lot of worrying and thinking "maybe he is, maybe he isn't" thoughts over and over until people just didn't want to hear it any more. You've been at this for four years, two of which you "get it."
I kept looking at the stages and signs of MLC and trying to fit my H into them... and the truth is, he was good at hiding it. It took my stepdaughter telling me "daddy is so depressed and angry" after I just walked out of the room because I was upset that he was so HAPPY and seemed to be MOVING ON so nicely... but she was seeing it with different eyes. Then I started trying to see if he was happy or depressed, and finally, I stepped back and said "oh, the heck with it." NOW I see. Walking backward has allowed me to be able to SEE what's going on. It's like being farsighted (did I get that right?) - when you're too close, you can't see, it's all blurry. Back away and things will begin to show themselves. For instance, H was bouncy, talking in a high pitched voice to my dogs, but after he thought I was asleep, I was allowed to hear him swearing at them and it was clear to me that he's angry still. But when I'm around, he's happy, happy - which tells me that he's trying really hard to convince me that he's happy but he isn't. Also, DSD got roses from a friend for her bday - and they were delivered to the house. H was breaking up the cardboard and saw the roses, and said, oh, you got flowers, and usually I would have ignored him, but this time, I watched casually and saw him look at the label to see who sent them. Which tells me he's still curious what is going on with my life.
Throughout this all it's been a lesson in patience and letting go of control for me. I told God I would let go and let Him handle it, and that has been hard.
Four years is a long time. You must have a boat load of patience.
M&H;
For 4 years it has been up and down. Not all bad.
I would not live through it again, but on the other side of it (losing my mother, brother, personal illness and beating death of a friend- on TOP of my H's demands) I am still standing.
Yes, he is depressed. BOC it is my fault, doncha know.
He started IC yesterday, I don't know who with- I have a hope that it is to address why he does some of the things he does. Not just to beotch about his "abusive wife".
Last time he had a "Dr. Feelgood" who validated EVERY behavior he exhibited (believe you me, he does not need anyone else giving him excuses) or so he said - <that she validated his reasons.>
I can only hope this time it goes better.
Know what I just figured out? I had a melt down yesterday, and I did not pitch back one bad name. Not one at all. It didn't even cross my mind.
Ok someone offer help. VENT alert Vent Alert!
We are supposed to go out tonight. I am an artist and I have paintings in a gallery and tonight is the opening.
We are trying MC, trying to be nice to each other and put all the "angry stuff" on the side, but I am so angry now that I am shaking...
I am so sick of being humiliated. I am so sick of having my life/marriage issues drug out in front of people, I am sick of it! I deserve some privacy and dignity.
I have read the disengage stuff, it makes sense. but I am also walking the fine line of living with him and attempting recovery...
He wrote an email telling me, amongst other things, how he had the COURAGE to file divorce papers. (Did I add that he did this behind my back? filed Thursday and Friday went to Germany for a week- and would not talk?) He threatened this in the past, (tell everone he is going to divorce me, except me or the kids) and he said that he would never, never do that again. He promised me to stop the P.A. backstabbing...
How the hell is this courageous? I am so mad I can not sit here. This is going to be hard to swallow. I don't even want to see his face. This is the piss off button of the YEAR for me.
Should I go by myself?
I guess my question to you is this:
Should you only try to be nice when everything is easy or you're feeling good?
Oh they will say the stupidest [censored].
For me? "My intentions were good!" she whined about having an affair with my friend.
Your intentions might have been good but your follow through sucked asss. : )
Kick,
Actually willing to bet that filing for a divorce did take some courage...change is never easy. Telling YOU that isn't the smartest thing in the world...and proves he isn't thinking clearly..or that he is just as dumb as a box of rocks and always has been.
Well do not sit there, go for a long walk and lift some weights...
as for tonight?
If you are still upset then yes, go alone, until you can control your anger....and not let it run you oOR your emotions with a drivers hand on your mouth...alone or away from him is better.
Let him know that it is easier for you to go alone tonight.
I (we) went to the opening. OH my goodness! CCS (in Detroit) opened a new Fine Art based High School, and improved their other offerings.
They took an old building in Downtown Detroit and made it...well quite beautiful.
I was at Wayne show- my are was very prominent, a lot of compliments. Nice.
Then over to CCS student show. Very impressed as a teacher.
We got along OK until about 9 pm.
I can not swallow the courageous stuff (yes, J3B- it probably did take some guts to file, but what an a$$ to put this out to me.)
When I get tired I get cranky. We had a small argumet (over the beautiful student art) and he just kept dodging my hurt and questions.
I left angry - I was getting way too upset with his demeanor and sanctimoneous attitude - I drove home (I had my own car)
Grrrrrrrrrr. I did at one point say he "did not get off his lazy a$$ to find a counselor or try to FIX the M problems-- he just did as he pleased"
Damn it! I called him lazy! I have been so good at not calling names!!!! Well, in the past it would have been much worse. OH well, back to the old drawing board.
It seems he wants this marriage conditionally. Not a very solid feeling for me. It has been 24 years of us together -
I don't have any parents, I have lost my brother and I do not have tons of friends.
He is about all I had.
grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Kick
I am sure some vets will follow me here on this but you seem way too focused on what H is doing and doing to YOU.
When you detach (and this won't happen overnight but HAS to happen) you gain control of your emotions and reactions to H. It is hard when you live together but it can be done.
I use this anology and I'll apologize for the profane upfront but it seems to fit:
Do you feel like sh!t?
Well guess what. YOU are the operator of the sh!tmaking machine. YOU control it. YOU decide what it produces. Only YOU can turn it on and off.
Think H controls you? Only if you give him that power.And...
...we already know you can't control H so....
What is your machine going to make today?
Kick
Also
I don't have any parents, I have lost my brother and I do not have tons of friends.
He is about all I had
Why is this the case? How do you think H feels about this? Does this make YOU happy? DO you wish it were different?
Part of this process is looking in the mirror and understanding while what the MLCer is doing is grossly inapproriate and damaging...
...we ARE part of the problem.
It is an opportunity to look at ourselves and become better people through understanding our own pain, and our contribution to it. This can be lost in the bullsh!t your H is pulling but don't let it pass you by.
What is also most important is what WE do with OUR time while the MLCer is the tunnel.
Well, I am just trying to be truthful. I have lots of people to talk to, but close relationships I have always found hard to come by. Just have. He is the same way too. for most of the marriage we were each others best frined.
Lost a lot of people, too. It makes you hold onto things that you have (or percieve you have). I finished Grad School, and between working and night school I spend all my other moments with my kids (teens).
Yes, I do focus on him.
Well, I have been trying to keep the "detach" webpage in mind.
Right now it seems a LOT like withdrawl. Maybe that is just how it starts.
My H came home from counseling with a book "Getting the love you want". I am guessing that his IC reccomended it (he is not really a "book browser.")
At first I thought "great! a selfish titled book! To bad they don't sell one that says "get everything you want from your spouse in 3 minutes!"
On Amazon, it said the book is about IMAGO relationship therapy.
((Sounds a little new age to me.))
But the core to this DOES deal with childhood issues, and looking at patterns and concious selection of partners.
This is something I think a MLC refuses to face.
It also talks about conciously picking out a partner the has traits that you lack or are attracted to because that is how you were raised. My engineer H would be attracted to this type of thinking- I beleive.
I am trying to work on my own issues/happiness and life. It is so very hard to detach when you live with them.
Has anyone tried this? Imago, I mean
The really cool thing about Imago is that it points out that 99% of your feelings are yours and based on your own psychology and only 1% is the trigger from your partner.
It is beautiful in that it illustrates how the person you've chosen likely holds the key to helping you heal in that they push many of your childhood buttons and you've chosen them for that reason, therefore, if you can heal with them, you can heal those childhood wounds.
That's my best summary on it.
I found, even after an amazing 8 hour session with an Imago therapist, my H was 1) stuck on another woman 2) completely committed to his belief that we wrong for each other. Everything was laid out for him and made perfect sense and the willingness just was not there to do the work.
But, it is fantastic stuff and if he reads the book, he will have to absorb some of it and really understand that his sh*t is his and has little to do with you. What he does with that information is up to him of course.
Kick
I've read thru your post and I walked away with (okay I did not actually walk away
) is this...
I sense that you still feel like you can somehow change your H. Maybre you think you can pick up a book or go to a class or that your H's IC will smack him upside the head and he will change.
HB, Jack and 1000 have all said what I am about to say...YOU CANNOT FIX HIM.
Right now is a time for you to think about what kick wants. Time for you to take that long, hard, sh*t, painful, fustrating (sorry if I am being melodramatic) look in the mirror. Why I am sure ask?
Because the one person you can change in this is YOU. That's right...all the love in the world that you have for you H, all the nice things that you do, all the name calling that you stop, everything that you do to try and hope that it will change him - will not WORK.
What may work...is you becoming a whole person. A healed person. Someone who had addressed her issues and no longer feels the need to try an control someone else.
Look your H filed and put it on hold. I call that a blessing. I call that an opportunity for you to really make the lasting changes that you need to make. I cal the "D hold" - TIME, which believe it or not is on your side.
Let me tell you a quick story about a guy (he is the one typing this to you
) who pushed, who did not detach, who did not work on himself, whose W said I will not file until X period of time, who was on these boards and did not LISTEN, who never REALLY work on himself FOR HIMSELF - this guy was served a few weeks ago.
So here is my advice....
1) Detach - it is the ony way that you can remain sane.
2) Take a long hard look in that mirror and change the things about your character, your personality, etc. that you want to change. I am not talking about things like "i call him names" - yes this is good but it seems like a chnnge that expects a response from your H. THe things I am talking about are changes along the line of...you know who the hell am I outside of my M. Do my insecurity limit me - these are changes that you would make for you.
3) Take a break - go enjoy your self. Step back from this for a bit and just enjoy life.
Kick - you can do this. It will take work and committment. A committment not to your H or to your M but a comittment to YOU.
God Bless,
Eric
Listen to this^^^^
Kick.
We have all been where you and are trying to save you the pain.
In the end you have to experience it and move through it.
Hang in there...
EMS:
Thank you for your post. Again I find my best efforts get turned into the wrong direction. I know I do this to myself. I THINK I am detaching, and I still make it all about him.
I like the person I see in the mirror. I know it shows grace and humility to state "I am changing", but basically I have worked
very hard and done a pretty darn good job becoming who I am.
I am not afraid to have my own opinion, my own standards and I am proud of my career, children and talents.
My biggest "sin" is trying to do too much and getting frustraited/angry with myself and others when things don't happen how i want them to. Yeah, I like to control things.
My life got kicked in the a$$ when my brother and mother died and friend was murdered. It was grief overload. I believe my H's MLC was a "perfect storm" that collided and about destroyed me. Hell yeah I am mad! Hell yeah I am sad.
....so now I just heard you all say;
"..so what are you going to do about it?"
detach, "fix" myself ...
Kickme
I know I do this to myself.
Then maybe you should stop.
I THINK I am detaching, and I still make it all about him
Detaching takes time. The GAL'ing will help but also you will need patiences. It took me a long time to get to the detaching phase. For me personally, it took the realization that my marriage was DEAD. That the person that I fell in love is no longer the same. The key is to also realize and accept that BOTH of you must change in order for the possiblity of reconciliation.
I like the person I see in the mirror.
This is good...do you also like....
Controling behavior is a symtom of some deeper issues. Trust me I am a former control freak. In my case, the controlling behavoir was a ploy to hide my own insecurities. To hide my fears. Fear of being hurt, fear of change. When we talk about working on YOU and becoming the best that YOU can be one of the things we hope is that you realize that the controlling behavior should change.
We all get a false sense of control. The reality, if we choose to accept it is that we cannot control another. I struggled with this, which is why I too would be frustrated.
Very normal as a matter of fact you should be piss*ed the F*ck off. The key is what you do with the anger - this YOU CONTROL.
BTW have you consider that your H is anger and that he is directing his anger at himself at YOU. Notice how he is dealing with his anger. So how will you deal with yours.
God Bless,
Eric
I like the person I see in the mirror. I know it shows grace and humility to state "I am changing", but basically I have worked very hard and done a pretty darn good job becoming who I am.
I have been self appointed as the new deputy in charge of BUTs violations.
BUTs make you special and the exception to something.
BUTs are excuses not to do better.
I am changing BUT I can't.
I want to be happy BUT I can't
I want to have courage BUT I don't
I like the person i see in the mirror BUT I don't
What comes after the BUT is what you need to focus on.
Do you see?
Detaching takes time. The GAL'ing will help but also you will need patiences. It took me a long time to get to the detaching phase. For me personally, it took the realization that my marriage was DEAD. That the person that I fell in love is no longer the same. The key is to also realize and accept that BOTH of you must change in order for the possiblity of reconciliation.
This is so true. Someone once told me (or told someone else & I just took it to heart), that the REAL changes start when you can make a decision and NOT wonder/worry/contemplate how it might or might not affect the WAS.
You can stop with the name calling, but instead of wondering if he'll notice--because honestly, he might not EVER notice--find out how it makes you feel about yourself to not be spewing that ugliness. And I can say that word "ugliness", I was guilty of the same thing. Oh, Lordy, did I say some horrid things to H. I have figured out why, and now I'm not just trying to not say them anymore, I'm trying to change what it is about me, what it is about my personality, that makes me even want to go there.
The problem wasn't with my words. My problem was in my heart. That's the part I need to change.
And if my H never comes around long enough to see the real change, then I have to know it's okay. I am going to come out of this a better person. Not only will I NOT be the kind of person who calls the people she loves names, I'll be the woman with a healed heart.
That's all you can work on. Fixing, changing and healing yourself.
It's not easy. We're all smack dab in the middle. Read some other threads & see how some of the sitches are similar to yours. Sometimes it's easier to see your mistakes when they are committed by others. Just as long as we're learning from them, then we're doing well.
Big hugs.
And hang on.
BUTs make you special and the exception to something.
BUTs are excuses not to do better.
I am changing BUT I can't.
I want to be happy BUT I can't
I want to have courage BUT I don't
I like the person i see in the mirror BUT I don't
What comes after the BUT is what you need to focus on.
Do you see?
Yep, yep, & yep.
I also learned (the hard way) that if something someone writes to you stings a little, then it's probably true. That's the stuff you have to work on.
The crap that hurts & the stuff after the *buts*. Even if you don't like it.
Especially if you don't like it.
And if you think I'm kidding--go read the first few pages of my thread. My welcome party was...ummm...interesting. But enlightening.
<sniff>
I am so PROUD of you both...
I'm going to go cry a little now.
I'm going to go cry a little now.
Jack REALLY?
cry?
No NOT really.
Proud?
Yes, Yes really.