I've always had an internal clock and compass. Don't know how or why. Apparently my subconscious has them too. Even when not consciously thinking about it I become sad near the anniversary of my father's death. I've always been able to point the right general direction to travel.
This Christmas marks the two year anniversary of "the bomb." At first I was depressed but at the same time I know it is time to tie up loose ends so to speak and move on with my life. I confess I have been living a half-life, with one eye forward and one looking back at X, doing things for myself with their affect on possible reconcilliation in mind at the same time.
I plan to bring this D to an end, find a more permanent place for myself and kids, get the rest of my belongings out of that house and get a different vehicle. I plan on being friendly to X (she's more and more friendly to me as time goes by, WTF?) and help her when and if it's convenient and beneficial to me and our children.
I don't really know what's going on with X anymore. At first she seemed to be followiong the mlc schedule pretty well. She seems to have hit bottom a couple of times and bounced right back up. Although she looks and acts OK she often tells me she is exhausted and has difficulty multitasking the simplest things like talking to me about kidswap schedules while she is sweeping the kitchen floor. She is sick (again) and said something about animal hair as OM's cats are staying with her again and she is allergic. I'm not even going to try to figure that one out as she made him take his cats back at one time because of her allergies.
Like I said, I'm not sure if that was a speedbump or a milestone but you'll have to excuse me as I depress the accelerator and get back to driving my life for a change.
You need to put yourself and your kids first now. No matter what happens down the road with your X, you can be proud of yourself for taking the high road these past 2 years.
Merry Christmas.
Went out again last night. Never been out on Christmas night. The bar even had a band.
My date commented, "Everyone here must not have kids or else their X's have them."
Both of our X's had the kids last night.
Last night while picking up kids at X's (we're flipflopping during Xmas break) she requested that I take one of the two dogs she has to my mother's because it's not as well behaved as the other dog. I said no. She then asked if I rent a house with a yard would I take it. OM was in kitchen and I just pointed to the kitchen and asked, "Doesn't his house have a yard? Why can't he take it?" She didn't answer but made a face in response. She keeps his TWO cats in her house even though she is allergic.
X refused to keep kids last night even though htere were mantainence problems at my apt using her "I don't get vactions like you" litany again. She must have felt a little guilty about that as later she said, "I don't mean to be a b#tch" referring to herself. I'm getting tired of that and the next time she complains about no vacations I'll respond that she chose her career and I don't have a big house like her or a new vehicle.
She also mentioned how tired she is and the next time I hear that I'll tell her it's just because she is getting old and she better get used to it as it won't get any better.
Definately milestone.
Rudyard Kipling was wrong.
"If you can keep your head while all about you are losing theirs" you don't grasp the severity of the situation.
Kids are out of school next week (X's week) but she has to work (one of the busiest of the year in her profession). Her usual day care will also be closed next week. Tonight she asked if I could help take care of kids next week. I said I could help the first part of the week but not the rest as I may go out of town.
She grunted in disbelief.
Last year she dumped kids off on me her week to go out of town with OM for a week.
I took them for their sake.
let her stew. if, in the end, she opts to give YOUR kids to someone else, then step in and take them.
You are a good man.
Sleeper
2 years huh? , we are on the same time frame . I can understand what you are going through . It realy is time to let her find her own way now. You and me both know thats not so easy.
Dave
I'm also in a similar timeframe, CK.
Agreed, sleeper. Do not fear her anger.
"Fear is the mind killer"
Well, sleeper, that is good advice, I think.
It is the beginning of the Bene Geserit "Litany of Fear" in Hebert's book, "Dune".
When in a complete state of fear it is impossible to think rationally. Our reptillian (old brain) takes control over our human (new brain) in that state. We must master our emotions and separate our instinct from rational thought in order to allow rational thought to prevail in what otherwise might be overwhelming situations.
"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then you shall be a man (huMAN) my son." Rudyard Kipling
It's reality it's not a new idea.
Mixing it up.
Took kids to X's at lunch. I took her some bacon, hash browns (made from scratch) and eggs because I had some left over from the breakfast I made for the kids. Thought twice about it but went ahead and took the food because I used to make her breakfast every Sat and Sun before breakup (and all the women said OMG!). I wanted to remind her what she has lost.
While there I noticed she had a new chair in the LR. She asked if I wanted an old, ratty one in the LR. I declined. She then asked If I would take the old ratty one to the street for the trash and move the new one where the old one was. I DECLINED AGAIN, AND FELT D@MN GOOD ABOUT IT!
A little while later she called to rail at me about the kids weight. I can't help but wonder if she wasn't angry because I wouldn't move the chair and was finding something to b*tch at me about.
She called about an hour after that and behan to b*tch asking why I was ignoring her texts (I hadn't recieved any). She then remembered she cannot text on her new phone and apologized. She went on to apologize for venting about the kids weight.
Whatever.
I beginning to feel less and less sorry for her and just see her more and more as my crazy X-wife.
Sleeper, I think that you can have compassion without feeling sorry for her.
I hear you Breton, but It's hard to feel compassion for that little stray dog when it's biting you in the @ss.
"To err is human, to forgive, Devine."
Didn't that Devine guy(or gal) die here a while back?
She called again after my last post.
I missed it.
Sleeper, You are not being dark, though, when you bring her things. You need to be consistently less available.
Reread the applicable part of the book if you get the chance.
Sleeper,
Personally I think telling her no is doing both of you a world of good.
Of course the only part I really care about is that I think it's doing YOU a world of good.
She really CAN find a way to take care of basic responsibilities and obligations. The VAST majority of adults do just that very thing every day of their life.
Your ex was used to having YOU to turn to. She was used to having YOU to bail her out of a situation that might have required a tricky, skillful resolution.
Time for her to figure this out on her own.
If she comes back, let's have it be because she has realized once again how much she loves you and wants to share your life - not because she misses her co-baby sitter.
Stay strong. Follow your gut - seems to me you've been pretty spot on lately.
Blessings,
Bill
Oh, and...no offense Breton...
F*&% the book and going dark now.
This is not a DB'ing situation.
Games and strategies are NOT necessary.
F*&% them all.
Just live a good Sleeper life.
Bill
This may be a milestone (for her):
Today at kidswap X mentioned she owes her L $2,000 and recently got a nasty letter from him.
For the first time she didn't blame me or become angry about the money she owes her L.
To date her legal fees have been almost 5 times that of mine.
sounds like a problem....
Yes, one of many she has created for herself in the past two years, none of which has changed her course.
The X came by my place with DS last night.
She and DS were out on a "dinner date" and DS wanted to bring their leftovers to me. When she called to ask if they could come by she quickly said, "If you don't have company."
I let them come by. DS requested to stay with me (DD was on a sleepover somewhere) but I declined. He cried for a while but got over it with my help and a surprise I had for him. They borrowed a couple of movies to watch together and left.
As I was walking them to the car, X thanked me for letting them come by saying he just needed to get a little crying out of his system.
It was a very positive contact and we interracted like a family.
Such things don't mean as much to me now. I'm waiting for confirmation of a date this evening.
Milestone.
Well here we go again
X has kids for remainder of the week. Just called and asked if I would watch the kids tomorrow morn so she could work. I declined because he request was such short notice, she needed me early and I told her I have "plans tonight." All hell has broken loose.
She is raging, threatening me every way she can, financial and child custody, care, support.
Financials are not complete.
Don't fear her anger, Sleeper. I mean, if a friend asked that favor and you declined, it would be perfectly reasonable, right? Why does she have the right to rant and rave and threaten you?
You have been the nice guy for a long, long time--and I'm glad it got you to be friendly, but if it is to progress to romance, she needs to respect you more, don't you think? She needs to be less entitled.
She has not really experienced what divorce really means and has been cake-eating, in my opinion. It may make her angry. But if you kowtowed to her anger before, you need to let it go now.
You still have a LOT of contact with her. DB C had suggested to me "firm but friendly" boundaries and to truly avoid all contact except that which is necessary pertaining to the kids.
Not that I feel it has done a ton of good, but one thing about minimal contact is that it does force you to GAL. And if the WAS doesn't come back, you have a life to continue.
I came to the realization that I need big changes.
"Don't fear her anger, Sleeper." (That's easy for you to say)
She called a few times and texted me twice last night. I had turned my phone off as I didn't want to participate in it any longer. Her last text was, "Your kids have been trying to call you." Funny, she said in rage last night that she would not let me see them anymore and would be taking full custody.
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like.........victory." Apocalypse Now
sleeper,
Your wife acted like a very spoiled little brat about the child care. It was short notice and you know what? She's going to have to learn just what giving a notice is all about if and when the divorce takes place. You've been a very good person throughout all of this and yet, she's still spewing when she doesn't get her way. I think she was hoping to spoil your day so that if you had plans, you would have had to change them to accommodate her needs.
Sleeper, she'll get over it. Do what you have to do to set up some firm boundaries w/her. She's taking advantage of the situation and you certainly wouldn't just "drop" an announcement on you about the children. Time for her to think about getting some back up child care when you aren't available.
Keep your distance when she's ranting and raving and let her fire fizzle out. You don't need to be treated that way. She needs to learn to respect you and that's not going to happen if you are giving in to her temper tantrums all of the time.
Good luck!
Snodderly, it's better than that.
Just got off the phone with X (by the way we are legally divorced but financials are a separate matter in "The Great State of Confusion" where we reside).
She began with her usual, "You're being passive-aggressive" went on with how selfish I am to not watch kids when she is working, etc. She then asked, "Who were you hanging out with last night?" That totally caught me off guard and I responded, "Is that what this is about? You're upset I'm getting a life?" The phone went dead as she immediately hung up on me. How interesting that TWO YEARS post separation and six months post divorce she is terribly upset that I am going out.
More good news; OM IS WHO SHE GOT TO WATCH THE KIDS FOR HER TODAY! So much for her "It's gonna cost me money to have someone watch the kids and you'll have to pay more child support if you don't watch them" argument.
Sometimes that crashing sound you hear may not be things falling apart but things falling into place.
Sleeper,
Yeah, I've noticed too how they think we should stay in one place, not have a life, date or even remarry. However, it's okay for them to do all of that. My xh pretty much got pissy when he thought I was seeing someone, but I pointed out that he moved on, married his ow and his life is from all appearances grand. He did the exact same thing, cut communication! They don't want you, but they don't want anyone else to have you either. Quite irrational.
I wondered why she didn't ask the OM to babysit the children. After all, it's no costs associated with him doing it. They want to play house, they should play it to the maximum.
I'm glad you got out of the situation and the OM had to step up. Reality really does have a way of appearing in their lives when they least expect it. I would say that things are falling into place very nicely.
Now, you know what was driving her motives...keeping you at home where she knows you won't be seeing and/or dating anyone. She wants to ensure that you are still there for her. Time for your X to have a full reality check on that one. You are a single man and should go out and have some fun.
Enjoy your weekend!
This is classic.
Sleeper....The dark side is calling. Go have some fun.
She called a few more times.
She began by trying to guess who I was out with. I finally told her it is no one she knows (the truth).
She went on to berrate me for other reasons. Searching for ammunition she began to tell me how much I've hurt her, rubbed her face in it (one date?). Next I was a sorry father because I didn't take the children at any opportunity, a liar, etc. She then she reached back to the marriage to repeat the now very well known litany of my failures. She also mentioned all the ways she has been kind to me throughout our separation and D (I guess she has some internal set of rules and outcomes and I have violated that).
Sleeper,
She's really doing some projecting today. She's trying to push your buttons and make you feel guilty for not taking the kids when she asked you to. Well...she needs to grow up and accept responsibility for them when she has them over at her house. You are not the on call babysitter for her.
Please do not buy into her BS, for that's what it is....BS. If she allows you to get a word in edgewise, say "X, I'm very sorry you feel that way. I have to go now." Gently hang up the phone and don't pick up for a while. She's really got to stop this BS.
The next time she tries to guess who the lady is, ask her why she's interested in knowing who it is. That just might stop her in her tracks for a bit. I guess she's not realized what a divorce means, but she's learning the hard way and the longer she spews the BS, the more you will need to distance yourself from her.
Take care.
Sleeper, All of us on here are familiar with the ranting and raving, so do realize that I've been there.
You're going to have to put up with some of it for a while as you are taking a . Setting the boundaries is fair and realistic and, as snodderly pointed out, she needs to respect you and your time and your life. It's scary, but a good thing in the long run AND in the short run. If you wouldn't put up with it from a friend, you should not have to from her.
She may not let on, but she will respect you for it. Although I can't claim any kind of stunning success in other areas, respect DID increase when I set boundaries.
You have done a good job of being kind; you can continue to do that while you GAL. You don't have to rub things in her face, but you can be mysterious
And continue to be dark as much as you can.
What if, when she asks if you are mad, you tell her the truth? That you are not angry but that you didn't deserve this kind of outrage?
Sleeper you know what to do. Set up that boundary and maintain it. It will be good for you, for the kids, and for her too. she won't like it, it will feel unnatural to all of you, but it's the right thing. Live well, and independently.
So she called about midday. She said she was sorry we fought but then the discussion began to degrade into another fight. Before the convo was over she said it might be beneficial for us to get together and talk over our differences and different viewpoints. I was tempted to request that occur with a counselor present but I didn't. Her attitude was one of me being the bad guy, of course. She mentioned again she believes I'm being passive-agressive, the children should come first (barf) yadda yadda.
Thanks all for the comments.
Snodderly I did ask, "So that's what this is all about?" when she asked who I was with. She immediately hung up as the phone went dead.
Andabelle you're wrong for that (and I love it).
Breton, If I say anything along the line of not deserving her spew she immediately launches into a vitrolic littany of my failings in the M and what she has suffered (read I'm ultimately entitled between those lines). I've tried; that was years ago, I can't change the past, etc. to no avail. When this began the counselor even told her we can choose to live in the past, the present or the future. I once told her to, "Pull your head out of your past!" but it obviously did no good.
"Hold still laddy!" Unknown teacher, Pink Floyd's "The Wall"
We don't need no mid life crisis.
We don't need no thought control,
no dark sarcasm in the bedroom.
Hey, crisers leave you X alone!
All in all it's just a,
another brick in The Wall.
Go on,
do it again.
Go on,
do it again.
If you don't let go,
how can you find your footing?
Stand still laddy!
(Sung to the tune of Pink Floyd's, "The Wall")
God, she's like a broken record! You? Passive-agressive? It sounds to me like she is. How does she think the two of you can actually sit down, talk about your differences and view points calmly? I can just see that now....you open your mouth and the spewing begins again. She's got to release the past and live in the present and look to the future. You can't go back and repair the past, only learn from those mistakes during that time. She needs to be in an anger management class to help her deal w/the anger she's got festering.
As for your children....from what you've posted, you adore your children and would do anything for them, except babysit them the other day. She definitely wants you at her beck and call. She definitely doesn't want you seeing someone and definitely doesn't want you to move on w/your life and hopefully have a relationship w/someone new.
Please try to distance yourself from her, set your boundaries and adhere to them. I'm very sorry you are having to deal w/her anger these days. I had hoped she would have grown up a bit, but she's still an angry woman.
What would the point be - sitting down and airing your differences? isn't that what people do when they are MARRIED ?
Sheesh.
Sleeper, I guess I am the one hanging on to the past in the marriage. When H claims he has changed, I want to say that he has proved unreliable too frequently. With that said, you've had time to build up some new history, so to speak, and prove you have been reliable.
I would suggest that you DO suggest having a counselor present. This could be opportunity to have a real conversation.
Maybe this would be a good step.
I wouldn't do it. She's just gonna yell at you.
Why don't the kids always come first with HER?!
Thanks All,
I had many of the same thoughts. I will not sit down with her unless there is a counselor or mediator present. I also believe it would turn into a b*tchfest with me on the recieving end.
Our last "marriage" counseling (really an exit counseling) was a little over two years ago. She was stonyfaced, resolute, and even snapped at the C (that was confirmation according to him that she was in "crisis").
A little voice in me asks, could this be an opening to restoration of our M? But with her track record it's more likely motivated by her looking for a way to maintain the cake eating she has enjoyed for two years by having someone else explain to me how unreasonable and passive-agressive I'm being and that I should do as she wishes.
She must notice a change in me as I have declined to do little things she has asked of late, albeit doing some, have begun dating readilly admitting it to her and not watched the kids for the first time when I easily could have.
Her and her sibling (both terribly abused as children) have this weird behavior of projecting onto another exactly the unacceptable behavior they are displaying. She once beat on me til I was literally black and blue but she says I am physically abusive. I've never really learned how to respond to that except to ignore it.
She was always a little crazy but it got much worse when mlc hit.
Irrational behavior defies rational explanation.
Just when you think you've seen it all.
I picked up kids to begin my week tonight. I had detected tension in X's voice when we talked on the phone and the reason came to light at swap. After a few moments of pleasantries she asked who I went on a date with. I declined to tell her saying that was private. She then demanded to know claiming what affected her kids was her business. I declined again. She became more and more demanding threatening me with not letting me have the kids tonight. She used several arguments such as she is the mother of my children (the queen mum?) and deserves to know. I used the excuse it was someone I worked with and could not say due to potential policy violations if it became known. Of course she promised not to tell anyone. She wanted to know how old the person is and do they have children. I informed her that she hasn't met my children and our kids haven't met her or hers. As she became angry she made a snotty comment that it is probably some fat girl. Then she began the litany of my failings in our marriage as reasons she should be told what she wanted. I interrupted her and reminded her I formally asked her to forgive me for those failings Sat (I know I've asked before but asked again for good measure). She responded, "I have forgiven you." I then told her she shouldn't be bringing it up and stood my ground and wouldn't tell her anymore.
She did let me have kids tonight but as we were leaving she told me she hated me, and that I have ruined her life. She was very upset when we parted ways and didn't drive towards her house. She has a habit of driving around when she is upset. I hope she went to OM's house to cry on his shoulder that I wouldn't tell her who I went on a date with.
Anyone ever seen or heard of such?
well she simply is NOT OVER you....that is obvious! This is just unbelievable....you know they say the opposite of love is not hate....its indifference and she is anything but indifferent....will she ever look in the mirror
I hope she didn't tell you she hated you in front of the kids.
WOW-- just Wow.
This morning I had to see her because she had things kids needed for school. She started again on the phone and I hung up. She called 7 times but I didn't answer. She was driving to me when I left and she followed me. We stopped in a parking lot.
I got the stuff from her and she started again. DS is now very sad and told her he is going to divorce us both. She wants to re-open all the things we agreed to in the D, basically wants to use that to punish me. She railed again about my failures and I reminded her she said she would forgive me.
I told her point blank she is still in love with me. She didn't deny it but said she is moving on with her life. I responded, "How can you move on with your life and leave your heart behind?" She said nothing. I pointed out it was true because she didn't deny it.
Bottom line is she is very conflicted. She is still in love with me but doesn't want me because she is so angry and I failed her. She doesn't want anyone else to have me. She wants to control me and punish me when I don't behave as she wants.
I don't know what to do but ride it out.
Deep down I knew this would happen when I started dating and considered waiting til all the legals were wrapped up but that would have been letting her control my life. She could probably re-open them and cause trouble anyway.
Is there anyway I can get through to her?
I'm considering taking her up on her suggestion of counseling she made Saturday.
Is there anyway I can get through to her?
Maybe.
I'm considering taking her up on her suggestion of counseling she made Saturday.
The decision to try again when you have already started to move in another direction is perhaps one of the hardest choices you will make.
When you find yourself on the wrong path, most people are too stubborn to turn around to get back on the right path. How do you know if you're on the wrong path? If your heart and mind conflict about the destination.
Why not just ask her if she's hell-bent on moving on with her life, then why can't you move on with yours? I'm curious what her answer would be.
You dating might be the shock to her system she needs to wake up. Maybe she'll finally realize she can't keep you on the hook indefinitely, and will have to do something if she doesn't want to lose you.
Sleeper,
I'd just say that whatever you do right now, do not begin backing down on living your own life according to what YOU want to do.
I'm not saying date. Not at all.
I'm saying that you cannot give your wife the impression that she is controlling your actions with her outbursts. This is the pattern that she wants and is used to.
You need to break that pattern to get her to look at this relationship honestly.
If she wants you to attone for past mistakes, that's an issue. And it should be coming up in marital counseling, not by attempting to control you into the behavior she wants.
You have to break the cycle here. I like that you spoke honestly to her about her still being in love with you. I find it amazing that she is at the place where she can hear that and not react negatively to it.
Stay the course. Make the decisions you feel are right, reasonable, and proper. But handle supporting your position like a man, not like a fighter.
Blessings,
Bill
Tried not to but had cotact again lst night. There were some more things kids needed at X's. She did a very poor job of transferring what they needed to me at swap this week. Could have been the holiday effect or that she's a little more rattled than usual.
OM was there (of course, it's his second home). X snapped at me when she came out in very poor timing as one of the kids was having a meltdown when she did. I snapped right back. Interestingly, she stopped.
I didn't like what I saw in her. Cold, stoney-faced, different not the person I married or even separated from 2 yrs ago. I felt no desire to be around her, not even sure if I like her anymore.
Funny how you can not plan it, hasten it or even see it coming.
The worm turns in it's own time.
Sleeper,
I bet you didn't think about this one...she may have deliberately forgot to give you everything for the kid swap just so that you would have to communicate w/her about the missing items? It's never easy to figure out how their minds work, but something tells me she's trying to suck you back into the game.
The worm turns every time!
Sleeper,
I guess I'd have to say that you need that counseling now. You need to go for the sake of the kids. You can't have her snapping and biting at you.
Don't bring up that she is still in love, blah blah. Go to the counseling. I think it would be good for you at this time.
She is absolutely NOT over you.
She likes her cake.
As from the beginning she wants me not too close (divorced), not too far (not dating anyone), just right. Maybe I'll start calling her Goldilocks.
But seriously, she has some MAJOR control issues. Always has but it has gotten much worse since mlc hit. When things aren't going as she expects she flys off the handle and begins yelling at whomever she holds responsible. Recently she once told me, " _____ did _____ and I really yelled at them." I asked, "Did that help?" No response.
I'm not going to initiate anything like counseling, "Because we have to communicate." She only wanted that because I was being "passive-agressive" and not responding to her calls (I was on a date and she knew it, doh!). I'm going to continue to be less available and do as little as possible for her. I will continue to let her have unlimited access to her kids but will no longer go out of my way to do so. I let her pick them up from school today and take them with her to dinner. She could have had them all night but she dropped them off and commented she was tired and going home to bed.
Some dept stores have "bed in a bag" in the linen dept. I guess "family in a bag" is what she's looking for.
I don't think she forgot kid's stuff on purpose. She is scatter-brained and has done that many times before. She still hasn't gotten everything to me for the week.
Screw it. I'm not going to ask for or go over there to get anything.
Sleeper, Prior to you being more dark, you seemed to have good progress. As you know, I think dark can be good. I think you need to give it some more time before you can decide if it is working.
SHE suggested the counseling--that is a major move IMO, even if it's cloaked in a "we need to work on your problems" way. This could be a good thing for your marriage as well. It could be a reality checkup for her and could help her soften towards you. Give it a shot. You do not have anyhting to lose.
Technically I believe she said, "we should sit down and talk." It was I who decided it wouldn't happen without a counselor present.
IF (and that's a BIG "if" at this point) I wanted her back a lot a lot of things would have to change as far as the way we relate to one another.
For now I plan on having less and less contact with X. She's made this decision very easy with her recent spew. In fact, I'm having a little difficulty balancing lack of contact with downright rudeness on my part while having no difficulty with either one occuring.
I'm now dating a 36 year old, very attractive and talented lady who enjoys my company and doesn't bite chunks out of my @ss.
At this point the ONLY reason I would consider reconcilliation is for the sake of the children.
But as I recall, at bomb X said, "Having children is no reason to stay in a bad marriage."
Heck, we're not even married anymore.
Sleeper,
Uh oh, are you still considering yourself "standing?"
Consider suggesting the counseling for your own sanity, and for the kids.
No, I guess not.
It was something about that second Christmas apart and her traveling to meet OM's parents at Thanksgiving. OM's parents traveled here and stayed with her and OM at her place ("our" house which is in MY name) over Christmas. Yes, they say the holidays are hard.
The funny thing is that me dating has resulted in the first rise out of her as far as I'm concerned in a long time. Almost exactly one year ago she was trying to fix me up with one of her friends for a date. What's up with that?
I saw her today about finalizing financials. She didn't seem well. She is stressed about finances and physically not feeling well. Her body has changed and she is thicker around the middle.
I believe they must crash, and sometimes crash spectacularly, before they ever fully open their eyes to the falseness of the decisions they have made.
I believe that they eventually do crash hard. I believe that they suffer tremendously as they begin to absorb just what they've done, what kinds of things they have brought in to the lives of those they once pledged their love to.
And I know now, over two years removed from my divorce, that there is no way in hell that I would ever want to be too close when that crash occurs.
Your wife is just now beginning to grasp the implications of the life she has chosen.
Will it lead her to truly examine her heart and realize the falseness of her choices? Who knows. Seems like some do and some don't.
I know it must take incredible honesty with yourself to accept that you could have screwed something up so terribly. And I can see how some would avoid that forever.
But if they won't do the work, they also won't be back.
I do believe that your wife is not done with you Sleeper. At the very least, she is not prepared to be without you. I'm not sure she ever really considered what divorce would mean.
Is that enough to bring her back? I don't know.
I do know that you can't sit around waiting for her to decide.
Peaceful co-parenting is the goal. DB'ing, in terms of trying to restore the marriage, should be taking a back seat. DB'ing, in terms of continuing to sharpen YOUR game and reclaim your life, well that's always a go.
Blessings,
Bill
Absolutely agree with Bworl.
Sigh. Sleeper, I can understand your frustration; we're on the same timeline. I have started to surf dating websites, too.
Unlike your ex, H just never seemed that interested.
I may be ready to have some fun now.
I went out last night. Had difficulty finding a babysitter but found one. I didn't tell the kids I was going on a "date" but I guess that's what it was.
When I picked up kids from sitter's DD told me X called her while I was gone (DD got a cell for Christmas). X asked her where I went and X commented to DD, "I think he's on a date with someone."
I don't find these kinds of comments by X to kids or her screaming obscenities at me on the phone while they are in the car with her appropriate. I'm taking the position that this too shall pass.
I find it interesting that X called DD on a Friday night and asked where I was. I also find it interesting that I'm no longer concerned or thinking about the last time I spoke with X; how long it's been or whether the contact was positive or negative.
Next weekend when I don't have kids I'm going on a little getaway with friends out of town.
Life is good.
Getting a life is even better.
Sleeper, It sounds as if you have found a good place in life right now. I am happy for you! I'm so glad that you are moving forward in such a positive way and not focusing so much on your ex-wife.
No one knows what the future holds. But, life is short...enjoy it and make the best of it. You deserve some happiness for a change!
deb
Thanks deb, so do you!
So do all dbers!
My wish for 2009 is that we all turn from the pain behind us and grasp the life that is before us.
Carpe vita!
I've just read your thread for the first time. That's maybe why my response is a bit different from others.
You are starting to sound like a WAS. Are you o.k. with that? Really? Truly?
You've gone through so much and worked so hard for so long ... maybe you really are done. But are you really? Do you feel it and know it?
If you think or feel maybe not, then perhaps you may want to tell X that you'll go to counselling if she still wishes to set it up. You don't do anything but show up and listen (at least initially). It's her ballgame from there. Worst case scenario may be a better co-parenting relationship. That's a pretty good one.
Sounds like maybe there's still some room for you to make an active choice as to whether this is a speedbump or milestone.
She walked away but certainly isn't done with you. You may want to be sure that you don't end up in that position as well. But maybe you are sure now, I can't tell.
Tonight was interesting........
I called X this afternoon to ask if she would take the kids a little early. She quickly told me, "No, I'm too upset." I asked, "Why?" and after pressing she confided in me that she and OM had a fight. I simply responded, "I'm sorry." She then demanded to know the name of the person I'm dating, etc., etc. I held my ground and told her nothing.
When I took kids to her a couple of hours later (close to our regular time) she requested that I stay for a few minutes so she could talk to me. She made several interesting comments:
1. It is my fault her and OM are fighting because I dropped by unannounced (DD desparately wanted something of hers from the house) and I used my key to enter the house a week ago while they were there.
2. I have done "damage" (irreparable?) to their R.
3. It is my fault she is broke as I refused to comply with her attempted orchestration of the D by not agreeing to use one L (hers) and not agreeing to her every demand.
4. She vented frustration that I didn't make self improvements (dbing) until she dropped the bomb.
I don't know if he's using me as an excuse to break up with her or she is just blaming me for the failure of their R.
She has never (and didn't tonight) asked me to give her my key to the house or the business for that matter.
At one point as I stood in her bedroom, during the above discussion, I couldn't help but notice pics of her and OM on the shelves. She asked, "What?" As I turned to leave she said, "That's right, ____, just walk away." I showed no emotion to any of her comments, gave no defense in response to any of her accusations, did a few things for the kids and left.
Hello whateverittakes,
I'm a LBS who is coming to grips with standing for something that no longer exists practically, figuratively, or legally.
I guess it's the reason we never see people protesting to preserve the habitats of extinct species. What's the point?
Am I "OK" with it? Not sure. I do know it makes no sense to wait any longer. Is anyone still waiting for the Titanic to dock? How about the Lusitania?
Yes I went through a lot, worked hard. Is she not done with me? Don't know. Maybe we'll see, maybe not.
It's TOTALLY up to her now.
It's TOTALLY up to her now.
No.
It is totally up to you now.
The LBSer is the one who actually determines this and always has. If she comes around it is up to you if she can. If she wants to talk it is up to you if you listen, if she does X, it is up to you if you are going to do Y...
Always has been. It takes awhile, a very long while for some to realize this because at first we all feel like someone is pulling our strings, but that is because we allow it.
Sleeper , wow are we both on the same page again. check out my last post in my thread and you can see the similarity . The worse thing is as dear W starts her slippery slide , the Kids are wanting less to do with her despite my encouragement. I hope that changes .
I can emphasise with were you are at , I to struggle with the thought that there could ever be a reconciliation with my W.
All I can say is just take things slow , dont be in a hurry to enter a new R .
The question is if she was to figure it out and realy start making changes she needs to make and there was a chance of reuniting your family what would you do?
I dont have the answer , just giving you stuff to think over .
Dave
Ah, Sleeper, I feel in a similar boat, although I think your W has gradually come to have a better view of you than H has had of me, and you have seen more signs of hope and progress than I have.
You do need to start acting as if you are divorced. But you can make it friendly if possible.
Would you just walk in to a friend's house? Do not just go into her place again. If I were you, I'd turn the key over and simply say "I don't want to invade your privacy and I don't want to get between you and OM."
That should be a 180.
I also think about dating. I am realizing I have a very shaky sense of self now, and I want to come out of it.
"If you think or feel maybe not, then perhaps you may want to tell X that you'll go to counselling if she still wishes to set it up. You don't do anything but show up and listen (at least initially). It's her ballgame from there. Worst case scenario may be a better co-parenting relationship. That's a pretty good one."
Sleeper, This is good advice.
And S, one other point:
If you read Another Web Site with Marriage advice, the fact that you are re-entering into conflict with her could be a good thing. You would have to get those issues back out to get back to an intimate relationship.
You have made progress.
It's when you are shut down and withdrawn from one another (as unfortunately I am w/H) that things are most problematic.
When I was dropping kids off last night X came out (OM was in house) and said there was one thing she wanted to change on the financial agreement. The root of the issue was one of her not trusting me completely. I told her I just want it over so I can do some financial things I am unable to as long as financials are in limbo.
When I got home I dwelled on what she had said and got a little irritated. Over the last two years I have done NOTHING to cause her to distrust me. In fact I have gone around the world out of my way to do things for her financially and otherwise. I haven't just gone "above and beyond." I've gone above, beyond and into another dimension in the things I have done for her. I texted her to that effect.
This AM I read my test and although not an angry one I decided she might misinterpret it so I texted her a short explanation. She then texted me about 6 times, and went on and on about how she wants to help me achieve my goals and won't stand in my way, asking if there is anything she can do to help. I had turned my phone off as I was at work and didn't respond to them.
She called me after work but I missed the call as my phone was still off. Later I called her to request if I could bring by something DD had left at my place, trying to respect her and OM's privacy. She was totally OK with me comming by but got off the phone quickly. Funny how she took time to text me multiple times earlier in the day but didn't want to talk on the phone more than a moment. I think she didn't want OM to know she was talking to me. She told me I could call DD and DD would come out to get it. When I arrived DD came out as she had requested but OM came out a couple of moments later and went back in the house.
It's obvious she doesn't want to totally lose me. At the same time she doesn't want to damage her and OM's R by contact with me. Maybe she just doesn't want to lose her cake eating ticket or she wants to maintain contact with me as a plan "B" if the unstable R she and OM has falls apart.
It's all so very odd to me but really doesn't matter.
For the first time I really do feel like the OM in this sitch.
Sleeper
Of course she dosnt want to loose you totaly , You have been an anchor for her even if she doesnt realise it.
The abrubtness on the phone was possibly in response to you not replying to texts.
You can bet that OM has a tough time with you being involved but thats how it goes when you have kids. He can probably see the connection thats still there and thats got to bother him.
Dave
Sleeper, I think it's good that you have boundaries better established. It will be better for the kids, too.
I do think the advice about treating them like business associate is appropriate. I also think it is healthiest for the kids--if you are too good of friends they want to see you back together.
She called just as I was geting off work today.
She has decided not to make the change to the FS she had mentioned to me earlier in the week. She is now p*ssed at her L because he hasn't filed papers I have already signed (ones she has previously accused me of not signing). She now believes he is dragging things out to make more money. I agreed and told her I had come to that conclusion a while back but didn't want to say anything.
She still wants to use one L but now she wants to use mine (to save money).
I previously told her I am going out of town this weekend and that must be on her mind as she asked, "When will you be..." but stopped herself before completing the question.
She did the yo-yo the remainder of the week.
She spewed following the above discussion, then moderated a couple of days following that and ended the week on a calm note.
She is still very curious about my trip. When I picked up kids tonight they mentioned, "Mommy says you have a new girlfriend." I find this inappropriate but probably won't confront her about it. Funny how if I go out on one date I have a "girlfriend", but she has never refered to OM as her "boyfriend." She also sent the kids with a birthday card from them to me (5 months late). She forgot the previous 2 birthdays of mine completely.
She sent TONS of food with the kids tonight. She hasn't done that in a while and it kinda irriates me.
sleeper,
Yes, it irritated you about the food....but it's the dance. She thinks you are dating and she's trying to find out what she can about the lady and yes, your dating or going away for the weekend has her in a tail spin! Look what she's done...a birthday card 5 months late, sending tons of food with you and the children and telling the children you have a girlfriend. It's evident she's feeling like she's on ground that is starting to shake. In her mind, she always thought you would be right where she left you at home, single and there at her beck and call.
I had to chuckle over your posting because this is par for the course w/the mlc crisis folks. You distance yourself, move on a bit, go out and have fun....they then try to reel you back in by doing things such as this. Of course she's not going to call the OM her boyfriend...because there is no deep love commitment w/him. He's her boy toy and nothing more.
Enjoy your week.
Yes, she has commented on more then one occasion, "It's not like that" when the topic of marriage with OM was broached.
She has told me the reason she sends food is guilt. She is fully aware her standard of living is higher than mine and therefore her children experience a lower standard of living when they are with me (50% of the time). I know she is also aware that she is now a part-time mommy.
Your observations in reference to my dating are probably true. She didn't have all of the kids things ready yesterday when I got the kids so I told her I could come by today and pick them up. She was very OK with that. Also for the first time in a long while OM was not with her when I picked up kids last night. They are usually together every Sunday evening whether I pick them up or she brings them to me.
On a side note, in true mlc form, she informed me during spew last week that she has gone through her inheritance. This is in part (or all) my fault of course as I did not agree to use one lawyer (hers) in settling D issues. I refrained from suggesting she sell the airplane she bought. Her L turned out to be very expensive and she has paid three times the legal fees I have spent. On some level she realizes it is not all my fault as she has made dispariaging remarks about her L.
"Are we having fun yet?"
Sleeper,
I can definitely understand why she's gone through her inheritance! The pot of gold doesn't continue to multiply if you are spending it hand over fist. As I recall, you've not asked her to assist you monetarily in your lifestyle these days. It's not a wise choice to have the same lawyer working for both of you on this. It's always better to have two so that you both have legal representation to the fullest. Her lawyer sounds like he's got her figured out and who better to suck her dry, but her lawyer.
That's a very low blow to you to indicate that your children live a "sub" standard existence w/you. It sounds like she's projecting what her boy toy existence is. Let it roll off your back. She's just trying to make you feel bad about your life style.
When the money is entirely gone, who will be standing there crying with her eyes in a tissue? Certainly won't be you.
Oh, yeah, are we having fun yet?
Sleeper, Yeah, you have a model MLCer...
The plane puts her in a realm of exotic on this board.
As I've said several times before...
"It's a fine madness."
How are you doing, Sleeper?
I'm doing good Breton. Thanks. In fact just a moment ago I was thinking about how I feel no sadness or pain over the end of the M any longer.
The week was a bit of a roller coaster. X went off on me out of the blue early in the week. I triggered it (in truth her own fears did) when I told her the facts of her sitch with the house after she asked me to se if i could refinance the house at a lower interest rate. She wants (and is getting) the house but the mortgage is in my name only. She railed at me that her L told her she could just keep making the payments and she cannot qualify for a loan, etc. She went on to opine how she believes I will find some way to "screw her" (read; if anything doesn't turn out exactly as I fantasize it will it's YOUR fault and you did it on purpose) as we try to finalize financials.
I made one visit to my L to sign papers and we both learned that we will be required to appear in court, much to our chagrin, as the judge requires it. More money for our L's.
today she was texting me that she is being honest and has never lied about her intentions during our entire relationship including the separation and D proceedings. She went far out of her way as she texted me multiple times and later called. She has a letter from her L she wants me to read that "proves" she has been honest. I told her it's unnecessary as I believe her.
I guess she's far from out of the tunnel as she is going to a concert tonight and didn't have time to speak to DS who sprained his ankle (DD called her) tonight because she was in a hurry to get ready for the concert.
That pissed me off.
A couple of weeks ago she told me she hated me for ruining her life. I'm very tempted to tell her I don't hate her for ruining my life but I do hate her for ruining our children's lives.
Sleeper, Don't say anything to her, I guess. I wish I were at your point (not feeling pain and sadness at end of marriage).
Your W has a lot of growing up to do and only life and time will really get her where she needs to be.
Hey Sleeper , Just looking in on you.
I did get a chuckle from
a letter from her L she wants me to read that "proves" she has been honest.
Imagine being in front of a judge and proclaiming " I am inocent your honour " " I have a letter from my Lawyer that says I am "
Dave
I've about decided my x is just crazy. As she is a product of a severely dysfunctional childhood and terrible abused I accepted her quirks as quirks. Something snapped at bomb and her damaged personality bloomed.
She railed at me today because she found out from DD that I am dating someone. She is terribly angry about that and came up with all sorts of reasons why I had hurt her and the children in the way I went about it (I waited until 2 years post-separation and 7 months post-divorce to date). I won't go into all that transpired but I have also gathered she is feeling some guilt for the D's affect on the children and projecting it all on me.
She basically wants to scream at me about stuff that happened years ago. She expects me to take it. Any apologies on my part are met with her rebuttals that I am not truly sorry. Anything and I mean anything and everything is my fault. Anything she has done which may have upset or damaged the children she twists into being my fault.
I engaged her a little bit today when I thought it might help but don't think it did at all. At one point after she hung up on me for the third time and called back I asked calmly, "Why do you keep hanging up if you're just going to call back?" I asked for the second time that we attend C together only to settle past hurts so we can stop fighting. She refused.
Oh yeah, she told me today I "deserved" the physical abuse she dealt to me. No remorse on her part at all.
I think she was mentally worse off today than at any time in this entire hell.
On a positive note I have never felt more in tune with the following quote......
"Frankly my dear I don't give a damn." Rhett Butler
"rock bottom" when you least expect it and sledom what you think it will be.
Sorry Sleeper, and yet a certain ammount of freedom to let her know exactly how you feel...about everything.
I bet she's been a barrel of laughs with OM lately.
So weird.
It is amazing they can't look at one iota of pain they have caused us.....
Who really wants to look at the pain they inflict on others.
Easier to delude oneself, that no one really got hurt.
Sleeper, Maybe I am slow or dumb or both, but I still think you have had a good amount of progress w/your W. You had positive exchanges there for a while. The fact that she is jealous is actually a positive.
Your wife is not indifferent to you, and that means she is not over you. I would simply ignore any and everything that she says that is blaming because it sounds to me as though what she is actually saying is "I really screwed up but I am insanely jealous that you're dating so I will yell at you because I don't know what else to do." And even if that's not it, the fact that she is opening a R talk is also not a bad thing--so it's kind of up to you where to take it, if you can. Can you calm it down a few notches and say something like "What is REALLY bothering you?"
As far as your quotation...I understand where you are; as we are in a similar timeframe I too am fed up, impatient, and tired of "standing." And I too feel increasingly detached and disinterested in H. The obstacles to reconnecting are huge and a spouse who is angry and (for me more so) disitnerested makes it seem impossible. I try not to get discouraged, but I do understand now how easy it is to become interested in someone else, because quite frankly when you have been so deeply rejected, someone else looks terribly appealing.
I'm not exactly looking to meet someone but at the same time, if someone did ask me out I think I woudl go. And maybe in our WASs lost little minds, the OP had appeal because they were lonely and as sad as we are.
It's been a long time.
BTW, my book about forgiveness made the point that it is much harder to forgive when the other person is openly UNremorseful. It's also a better, truly amazing form of forgiveness.
Your wife is still stuck on top dead center.
I don't know if she will ever move back in your direction or not, no psychic abilities here.
But I'd make a pretty wager that it will never happen until the day that you truly no longer care.
You know? That day when you actually HAVE moved on?
I see her as one of those that comes running when she finally thinks that you don't give a rip what she does with her life anymore.
The more you shut her off, the less a part of your life she becomes, the more likely that things start to be seen clearly by her.
Reality can be a real bitch.
Blessings,
Bill
I helped rebuild a 360 ci chrysler engine once with my dad. I know what "top dead center" is.
Fasten your seatbelts, everyone (I didn't have that luxury).
After yesterday's marathon spew triggered by DD informing X that kids and I spent afternoon at another lady's house X texted this to me this AM:
"I talked with kids for a long time (they were verbally upset by our fighting) and I understand their hurt and pain and I WILL DO WHATEVER I CAN TO CHANGE MY ATTITUDE."
She called in the PM and we talked for about 45 minutes. She explained why some of the things I have done have hurt her. My 180's were apparently too good as they have only made her more angry because I didn't do them earlier. I guess I should read, "Damn you've improved and I've noticed." She once commented about 3 months post-bomb that she was angry that another woman would get the "good" me. Until lately there was no other "woman" to get me.
We had the longest, most productive, fantastic talk since we have separated. A lot of it focused upon the long term effects of our D (and posible future relationships with others) upon our children.
The kids orchestrated 6 family "group hugs" tonight when I took them back to X.
OM is sick. She has two children and a sick boyfriend to care for as she is beginning treatment for a std which she admitted (for the first time) OM gave her during our convo today.
She very nervous about her finances and she lost her health insurance when she divorced me, now having to pay for everything out of pocket.
I'm not happy she is going through this but it is obvious all that glitters is not gold.
Sleeper,
That is great. She has made some steps in your direction. I sure wish that I could say the same.
How do you feel about this?
You won't believe what she said today...
She called after I got off work and berrated me for not wrapping up some financial stuff I've been working on. These are things I want to do before our financials are completed. I was a little miffed as I don't feel I am remiss at all in the matter but I held my emotions in check. I told her I would take care of the issue today.
I went by to see her about an hour after our convo as she was on my way home and I needed to ask her conformation on what I had arrranged. She was so pleased she said, "That deserves a blow job" (I hope we're all adults here). I was a little surprised but just smiled. We discussed the action for a while longer. I made the comment that it wasn't the time or place for a BJ as I said my goodbys and she smiled.
I kid you not.
WOW!
Man, I'm speechless....
Hmm. Very interesting. But how do you feel about it? Not the BJ, but the, uh, flirting?
And how are you feeling about the person you saw? If you arent' feeling involved yet and you are still interested in W, you may need to put the kibosh on it, just to avoid hurting anyone.
I think you need to haul out the DB book and read the parts on what to do when they start to act interested....
I just shot coke out my nose.
So last night she came by and got kids. I sorta had to hurry her out of here. I carried DD out and discovered OM was waiting in the car outside.
After leaving she texted me several times thanking me for wonderful children, and thanking me for doing things with them, etc. She also mentioned something she plans to do with DD this summer.
Could she be reconnecting with children?
Again?
This Am I was curious for a moment whether OM had spent the night at X's with the kids as I recently discovered by accident he sometimes does . I wasn't curious enough to drive by and find out.
I think that was a good thing.
Something I learned from Sunday's spewfest.
X returned again and again to the theme of how deeply she was hurt by my dysfunction. She kept saying it was 5 years (at seperation she said 4 but it has grown in her eyes to 5) but I didn't argue the point. She said she was both very deeply hurt and very angry.
This clicked in my mind as I read that anger is a response to fear, pain or disappointment. In her case she may have experienced all three.
This explains why she became angry at my 180's (too little, too late) and any attempt on my part to distance myself or allow her to experience the brunt of natural consquences for her action. In her mind I owe her for about 5 years of pain.
This knowledge has helped me to understand some of the negative dynamics over the past two years.
Sooo...you're sounding as if you aren't sure about where you are or not....
As it's been throughout this entire hell, where I am in all of this doesn't make a bit of difference.
They've had their share of rough spots but X and OM seem to be growing closer and closer regardless of the developing friendship between X and myself. I recently noticed family pics with me in them have been removed from X"s living room. X and OM are attending a church sponsored conference on relationships today.
On a different note, I and ladyfriend attended the opening night of an art exhibition last night. We ran into several mutual friends of X and myself. There were also two of X's employees there. I didn't realize it was going to be such a big event.
This should be interesting.
Careful Sleeper, Don't get your friend hurt.
This relationship class may work in your favor.
I mean, you don't flirt with your ex if you're so very in love w/your new relationship.
I understand where you are, though. I am in much the same place.
She's attending a relationship conference with OM?
Am I mistaken or was it not just a couple days ago you were offered a bj for being such a great guy?
Uhm, yeah...that should be a REAL interesting relationship conference.
Bill
Hey, what's a BJ between Xes, friends or employer and employee for that matter? After all, it's not sex......
"I never had sex with that woman, Miss Lewinski." President Bill Clinton
My news travels fast.
I picked up kids this AM and X asked me if I went to the art exhibit opening last night. She obviously knows I did and probably who I was with and what she was wearing as I had said nothing to her about going.
I countered with, "OM picking you up to go to the conference today?"
"I don't know if he is or not," she responded.
Kids later told me OM may have gone out of town.
Hmmmmmmmm
Sleeper, the only thing that concerns me here is that I hope you are not in a situation where you'll hurt someone b/c you're not ready to be involved.
If you still have feelings re. W, you should let her know, you know?
I wish H would show jealousy; only tiny little bits.
As far as OM, none of this hsould be surprising.