WW Help (3)

[FwdMvmnt]

Previous Thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2941239&#Post2941239

[Kind18]

“I know that your relationship with OM is more than friends. This is disrespectful to me, the kids and yourself. For me It is unacceptable behavior that a married woman acts in these ways. I will not allow my children to be part of this situation either. I know I cannot stop or control your behaviors, nor do I want to, but This relationship is not working for me and I am moving forward without you. If you decide that you want to work on this marriage and this family you can let me know and we will see if that option is still available. I will also have zero tolerance for this guy or any guy to be in or around our marital home and to have any contact with our minor children. I pray that you find what you are looking for.”
Then just walk away.

This is the second time you have proposed an ultimatum message. I’ll say it again, it’s not going to work. Every time you send an emotional or blackmailing type message (if you do X then I’ll do Y) your marriage is less likely to be saved.

I really think you need to go back to DB basic principles..

Rather than write some long winded, manipulative message, and given you are telling her above that this relationship is not working for you, perhaps try sending her this instead:

“I don’t want to be in this relationship any more and will be ending this marriage.”

[FwdMvmnt]

I appreciate the feedback Kind. I understand and will continue to DB hard core and if it comes if/when I need to get out it Will be direct or will just act not talk.

I still question my 180s sometimes. During the marriage she complained about being controlling and hard headed. I was definitely a nice guy and codependent. The actions of dropping the rope, NC and GAL to not be around seem like they could come off the wrong way. After BD it was definitely trying to talk my way back and looking weak. I think this is why I struggle. I do realize that it is counterintuitive and will continue the process. I’m glad I found these boards to bounce thoughts off of everybody before acting. I’ve always been reactive.

Tonight will be tough, it’s first night here where all kids will be with her. I will praying and utilizing my program, using my resources and reading Hold On To Your Nuts. I have The Four Agreements, Art Of Seduction, Rules of the Game, and Fathered by God all on deck. I think I’ve read more books the last two months than in the last 30 years.

Thank you all again.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks Trav

Thanks for the reply!

I am willing to follow rules to a T. I’m ready to create the Me I am meant to be.

This reply interests me and would love to hear more about your sitch. Do you have a link to your story?

“I fire an employee when their behavior is unacceptable. You propose words without apparent action. While it irks some people when I say so, I revived a relationship here for a couple of years, and I have an XW who wants me back. See Sand's Rules, which are pinned and take a more positive and less wordy approach to salvaging relationships--“

[LH19]

F,

If you were a control freak then you’re struggling because you are feeling the loss of control. Your brain doesn’t like that so it’s trying to get you to pursue your W and get her to apologize and to recommit to the marriage so you feel in control again. That’s why you are thinking up these false ultimatums. That’s what this is all about. It has nothing to do with your W. She’s just a lever to get you what you want which is to feel in control again. With time and distance you will see this clearly.

If you take the focus off your w that will give her time to think. Until you do this you will certainly continue to suffer.

[Ready2Change]

.. and reading Hold On To Your Nuts. I have The Four Agreements, Art Of Seduction, Rules of the Game, and Fathered by God all on deck. I think I’ve read more books the last two months than in the last 30 years.

The four agreements is a quick read. Read it every few weeks for a while. Every time I read it, I get something new.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks R2C

Quick help with a response on this. W flight canceled. Now she is wanting to buy an outrageously priced ticket or ride home with us. So she can be home by Wed. She started by asking if I could leave tomorrow. I said No, then she sent these. Haven’t responded yet. This was the flight she had to have for her sobriety. Not sure what the hurry is to be home on Wed. But whatever. I don’t really want her to ride with us home, but also don’t want to pay an absurd amount of that she will throw on the card. Suggestions?

W- You can’t leave tomorrow? (10:08p)
H- No (10:29p)
W- Why? (10:29p)
W- then I want to drive straight through Weds (10:29p)
W- I’ll drive half the trip (10:31p)
W- You’re gonna have to rent a u haul or something (10:54p)
W- Did you send Jammie’s or clothes? (For s6) (10:55p)
H- Should have some in the bag i packed the other night (11:16)
Just received…. W- Did you see my text about me driving part of the way and a u haul? There will be another person and more luggage (11:24p)

Thanks for any feedback, not in a hurry to answer

[bttrfly]

FM,
If I had to make this decision I would think long and hard about what it would be like for not only me but more importantly my kids to be stuck with this raving lunatic on a long car ride.

To me, it would be worth any amount of $$$ to send her crazy self-absorbed @$$ packing on an airplane so I could have a peaceful drive home and quality time with my children.

But, you know your finances better than I do.

Remember, the non-monetary price of her presence might be higher than the cost of the ticket, to all of you.

[bttrfly]

^^^ also, you would be sending a strong message that you'd rather not drive with her ...

[BL42]

I will praying and utilizing my program, using my resources and reading Hold On To Your Nuts. I have The Four Agreements, Art Of Seduction, Rules of the Game, and Fathered by God all on deck. I think I’ve read more books the last two months than in the last 30 years.

Great job reading those resources. Sounds like you're doing the work. Keep it up!

This was the flight she had to have for her sobriety. Not sure what the hurry is to be home on Wed. But whatever.

Is it possible there's an OM factor in being home by Wednesday?

I don’t really want her to ride with us home, but also don’t want to pay an absurd amount of that she will throw on the card. Suggestions?

I'd stick to the timeline which works best for you and the kids, regardless of her interests. Do you own a second car? If so, tell her she can drive that if riding along with you on your timeline doesn't work for her.

[Traveler]

FwdMvmt, my situations were: #1 - A few years ago, I arrived home to discover my life partner and her kids were gone. I DB'd and we resumed for 2 years. #2 - Before this site, I was a WAS to an XW who hurt my son. So I've worn both hats--LBS and WAS--but never been in an OM/OW situation afaik. I encourage reading Steve's and May's threads as they were LBS who dealt with OM/OW and saved their marriages. Not every situation can be saved, but right action maximizes your chances. It's great you are doing so much reading to maximize your chances, and can slow down your responses to messaging.

[bttrfly]

FM, I realize I may have sounded harsh in my previous post - my concern is that she's raged and lit things on fire when she hasn't gotten her way, and seemingly whipped herself into a frenzy at the drop of a hat. Being trapped in a car with her and the kids for hours on end raises serious concerns since she's so unstable. I am sincerely concerned about what she may do if she perceives that she's thwarted in any way, shape or form - like, you're not driving fast enough, you're making too many rest stops, etc.

I apologize for the name calling. I get very protective of the kids, but that's no excuse.

[Kind18]

F,

If you were a control freak then you’re struggling because you are feeling the loss of control. Your brain doesn’t like that so it’s trying to get you to pursue your W and get her to apologize and to recommit to the marriage so you feel in control again. That’s why you are thinking up these false ultimatums. That’s what this is all about. It has nothing to do with your W. She’s just a lever to get you what you want which is to feel in control again. With time and distance you will see this clearly.

This is exactly what I was thinking, but I was a bit more reserved in pointing it out than you LH19 🤣.

These two ultimatum messages in short order concern me because they potentially flag an issue with control. It suggests to me that FM is really struggling with the loss of control which can be very hard, especially for men, with a sudden bomb drop.

That often leads to desperate attempts to put everything back to normal quickly, such as threats, emotive messages, “if you don’t do x then I’ll do y”, or things to create jealousy.

I think FM that you should explore these issues in IC.

She has decided to leave already… so threatening her is only going to reinforce that she has made the right decision.

Agreeing with her excitedly, being confident, happy and indifferent to her is much more likely to make her slow down and think about it.

In my experience, women often want what they don’t have. If they know they have something (you desperately pining for them to stay) it’s a massive turn off.

[bttrfly]

(men seem to also want what they don't or can't have ... maybe it's a human thing rather than gender-specific?)

and yes, a desperate man (or woman) is a massive turn off ...

please do consider though not having her drive with you. I'm worried about her potentially taking off with the car while you're in the rest room. I know that sounds far fetched, but given what she's recently done, is it really all that out of the realm of possibility? better not to find out, I'd say.

I think your best bet to bust this divorce, FM, is to put the focus squarely on yourself and your children, leaving her to her own devices. If you then work to solidify a functional relationship with her as a co-parent rather than a spouse she'll hopefully start to see the changes in you and realize what she's throwing away.

She has so much work to do on herself before she's going to be a healthy partner for anyone.

[Kind18]

I think your best bet to bust this divorce, FM, is to put the focus squarely on yourself and your children, leaving her to her own devices. If you then work to solidify a functional relationship with her as a co-parent rather than a spouse she'll hopefully start to see the changes in you and realize what she's throwing away.

Ie follow basic DB principles.

Completely agree 👍

[BL42]

She has so much work to do on herself before she's going to be a healthy partner for anyone.

^Right. This isn't a typical generally good partner who got caught up in a rush, it's years of affairs and substance abuse and an OM who's an only recently recovering H addict.

FwdMvmnt - I'm going to give you a quote from my MC when I called her after the 3rd session when then W admitted the affair and that she wanted a divorce. MC told me "You should think about why you want to be with someone who betrayed you.". FwdMvmnt...your W is a bad case. She needs a significant amount of work on herself before she can be a healthy partner for you (or anyone). Do you think she's willing to put in that work? How long do you think it'll take? Like I said before I am very pro-marriage and think for the most part couples should work through things, but when there's serial infidelity and substance abuse and other major issues you really need to dig down here and think about what the healthiest path is for you and your kids.

Like others said, put 100% of focus on yourself and your children. W is going to take her own path, which you can't control.

[Kind18]

BL is asking the exact right questions FM, despite them being hard and confronting, you need to really dig deep and get some counselling to help answer them.

Your heart and mind are attached to this person because you’ve spent years imagining a life with them.

If you completely disconnect your heart strings, do you see a good partner? A good parent to kids? Someone you can trust?

Imagine your best friend was in your position. His wife has addiction issues she seems uninterested in fixing, a history of multiple affairs, gaslighting and very erratic behaviour.

What advice would you give?

Because from the cheap seats, this looks like a case of ignoring your heart and doing what your brain probably knows is best for you in the long term.

Time to get some IC, start looking at your control issues, and asking if you really should be walking away from this train wreck.

[Ready2Change]

Now she is wanting to buy an outrageously priced ticket

Get legal advise and get your finances split asap. Your job is to protect your assets. If she gets a CC in her name only then she will financially be responsible.

You really can't control what she does. But you can do what you can to limit damage.

[bttrfly]

I think your best bet to bust this divorce, FM, is to put the focus squarely on yourself and your children, leaving her to her own devices. If you then work to solidify a functional relationship with her as a co-parent rather than a spouse she'll hopefully start to see the changes in you and realize what she's throwing away.

Ie follow basic DB principles.

Completely agree 👍

trying to give him a specific blueprint and a vision of what could be if he does follow basic DB principles .... because they work

[Kind18]

trying to give him a specific blueprint and a vision of what could be if he does follow basic DB principles .... because they work

Absolutely! I always found reading your posts really helpful bttrfly.

DB works whether your marriage is saved or isn’t!

For me, DB gave me structure in a time of chaos, helped me build back my self respect, allows me to look my kids in the eye and tell them I did everything possible to keep my family together, and most importantly made me realise my ex wife was a very sick, troubled and toxic individual and that my and my kids’ life moving forward was all the richer without her in it.

DB will save you, no matter if your marriage is saved!

[bttrfly]

Absolutely! I always found reading your posts really helpful bttrfly.

thank you for saying that, Kind. I appreciate it. Yes, DB works even if it doesn't save your marriage, because it will save you.

DB allowed me to step out of the chaos my exh created during his MLC so that I could focus on what was most important to me, truthfully for the first time in a very long time. The time and space created by going inward and really thinking about what meant the most to me allowed me to re-define my core values. Obviously I cared about saving our marriage and my son meant everything to me, but the point is to put aside the marriage and the kids and delve deep inside yourself to think about what makes YOU tick. I'm so glad I took the time to do that, because everything flowed from that discovery. The most eye-opening thing I learned was that I really don't have much in common with people who aren't grateful for the many blessings life bestows, and unfortunately that included my husband.

I still stood for my marriage, hoping the angry, ungrateful MLC pod person who was in possession of my husband's body would leave and let the loving, kind and generous man I'd known for so long return to us. As time wore on, it became apparent that pod guy was here for the long haul.

I needed to live my life in alignment with the values I'd taken the time to uncover: honesty, loyalty, humor, fierce compassion, love and gratitude. I needed to be the lighthouse for my son, a safe and stable parent who was never going to leave for something more interesting on the horizon. I needed to embody my values so my son could learn what I felt was most important. I certainly didn't want him taking his father's example! And, I'll be honest, my hope and prayer was that my husband would realize what he was throwing away and come back.

Well, he didn't come back. I see today something I couldn't see in the middle of the mess: our values are really widely divergent. They weren't always so, but they are today. I love him but I have no respect for his choices or behavior. I may understand the drivers which brought him to crisis. I certainly feel fierce compassion towards him, but what he's done, said, how's he has behaved is not ok. There's a line. The line was about his treatment of our son, and his lack of ability or inclination to co-parent.

One of us crossed the Rubicon - I'm not sure which, nor does it much matter. There's only one direction to go in, and that's Forward. At least I'm doing so with a full understanding of my own core values.

Maybe that will resonate with someone.

[Rockon]

Resonates it’s me with depth clarity and conviction

[BL42]

How's it going, FwdMvmnt? What ended up happening with your Holiday trip?

[FwdMvmnt]

Hey all,
Long time since last post. Ended up doing the ride home together which was ok. She stayed on her headphones and we didn’t talk much. We picked up the car from the airport the next day and this is when I picked the rope back up. Shows my weakness. I have to stay stronger, she started talking and I talked back. We ended up kissing at the airport. She told me how much she enjoyed it and it fired those engines back up. Such a mistake. She texts me she blocked the guy she was talking to and started trying to show affection. My daughters and sim were around this entire week and GAL has been hard. She started texting the OM last night again and ended up admitting it. I have to start this all over again due to my weakness. Might be too late at this point. I have felt so weak this last week and needed to put it out there, I’ve been dreading the post. Need to hold myself to account.

I have my rescheduled L appointment on the 11th with a call into another one to see if can get sooner. I have been working my program, starting Step 8, I also have had 2 coaching sessions with my life coach. This has been good his opinion is to get out of the marriage. I also start Krav Maga classes this week which will give me something to do in the evenings. My biggest struggle is finding evening activities and being too accessible to her.

I hope everyone had a great holiday and happy new year!

[FwdMvmnt]

I wrote my coach’s opinion is to get out of the marriage, I should not have used the word opinion. He ask questions around the purpose of staying, etc.

[Ready2Change]

I’ve been dreading the post.

Nothing to dread here. We all make mistakes. Learning from them is the key.

We ended up kissing at the airport.

Passionately or like you would kiss your mom?

She texts me she blocked the guy she was talking to

She started texting the OM last night again and ended up admitting it.

I don't think her behavior should be your focus.

When I was dating, I was looking for a woman that was open and honest. Pretty easy to sift through women. Those were the top traits. Anything dishonest and I would move on.


You are in a different sitch and should be aware of times when W is being open or honest. If she is being open and honest, I would give her some attention, even if it is things you do not want to hear. When she is dishonest or being deceptive, let her know that you will not accept that type of behavior by pulling away. No need to verbalize, but let you actions clearly communicate.

[DnJ]

Hello F

I’m glad you dropped in. I was starting to wonder what may have happened.

I have felt so weak this last week and needed to put it out there, I’ve been dreading the post.

Please do not dread posting. We have all been there.

I get the feeling of weakness. Posting, getting it out in the open, does help. And, like any feeling, it will pass.

I have to start this all over again due to my weakness. Might be too late at this point.

It’s not too late. Heck, things are barely started. Cut yourself some slack.

I know it feels like having to start all over. However, it really isn’t. We all experience setbacks. Funny thing, these setbacks turn out to be steps forward. One learns much and applies this knowledge going forward. That’s basically life, an unending series of lessons. Always something new to learn. And when learning, one is not proficient at it. Embrace the lesson, get up, dust off, and move forward.

Really glad the car ride went smoothly.

How was New Years?

D

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks R2C and DnJ
I love the advice, and will definitely learn from this. I could feel myself in some of these moments knowing I just messed up lol. I need to find some more GAL. Will keep updating.

[bttrfly]

the guys are right - no worries here. this is your place. we're here to help, not judge. not one of us came here and DB'd perfectly every minute of every day.

Krav Maga is AWESOME! I think you will really enjoy it.

It's very hard to detach in close quarters.

I found it nearly impossible not to react to my exh's moods, not to be immediately available and responsive to texts or phone calls, as I'd been for more than half my life. I had to re-train my brain.

R2C is spot on about her behavior not being your focus. That's the road to perdition.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks bttrfly,
It’s difficult for sure. Just have to adjust minder and be stronger.

[Rockon]

FM, Keep moving forward like you’ve belong.

[Kind18]

I wrote my coach’s opinion is to get out of the marriage, I should not have used the word opinion. He ask questions around the purpose of staying, etc.

I ask that question of newbies from time to time. Not to encourage them to walk away from their marriage, but because it’s an important question to ask. It sorts the wheat from the chaff. Are they:
- people who haven’t been the best partners and need to DB, improve themselves and get their marriage back, or
- people who are emotionally trapped and tied to a crap relationship and who can’t see any way forward other than saving their marriage.

Most of the time I ask that question on this forum ie “Why do you want to be with this person?” it gets ignored. For broken LBS who land here, it’s too hard for them to face the reality that their spouse is not really a great person, or because they just want to avoid hard questions. LBS who arrive here generally want the path of least resistance and for everything to quietly go back to how it was.

Fwdmvmnt, I really think you should listen to your coach and spend a significant amount of time thinking about that question. Why do you want to save this marriage, is this a person deserving of your love and life, and if you were outside looking in, would you tell your best friend to stay with this person?

It’s all hard, confronting stuff - but necessary.

Good luck!

[Kind18]

Oh BTW, if my partner who had left came for a ride in my car, kissed me, told me she blocked OM and stopped texting him… And then two days later admitted she had unblocked him and been texting him, I’d pick up her possessions and place them on the side walk and change the locks.

[FwdMvmnt]

Kind and group,
Thank you for your reply and insight. I have been struggling with where I stand on these questions. I view the issues she is having as an addiction, like alcohol or drugs. I am to a point where I do think her being out of the house may be the best scenario for whatever is going to happen down the road. For now I am committed to my situation especially for our family. I know the beliefs around Christian beliefs and the how some believe it keeps dead marriages together too long. I believe that God is truly vested in all marriage, more so than those of us in the marriage. I feel that giving the marriage over to him and allowing it to play out to his will is the best option.
This is where I struggle, the IHS makes it hard for me to fully disconnect and I get put into a conversation, which I validate and will use it to practice my communication skills when possible, but these make it harder to drop the rope. Last night W told me she took a start over token in her SA program. She said she felt she was going down a path she didn’t want to go down and that she wants to be a good role model for her kids. This came out of the blue after she got home from her SA meeting (1st one in awhile). She also told me that she had been talking to 2 people not just 1. She says no physical, but I know how that works. I felt indifferent as she was talking. Time will tell if she is going to actually work a program or not. For now the situation I’m in, is what it is. unless I want to file an at fault divorce, which I’m not there yet. She also just got a job that she is starting this week. If anyone has good recommended threads on IHS I would love to read through them. I’ve re read all Sandis posts, as well as Those posting now Doug59 and Rock, so getting great information from them.

Back to me. I am committed to getting myself better and have been as busy as can be with this goal. I continuing to have my weekly coaching sessions, and have developed a plan for the year to grow in Mind, Body and Spirit. My task for this week is to write out what that looks like 1 year from now to cover with him next week. I’ll list out some of it below. I also have started Krav Maga, which is great, and took my Harley in to get ready for some rides. I also use my nights out to hang with friends. This is all new GAL for me. As for my year plan it is below:

Spiritual:
Continue morning prayer/ meditation routine
Weekly mass
Continue Spiritual Direction with priest (biweekly currently)
Al Anon program (On Step 8) / Weekly meetings with sponsor
Hopefully start to sponsor before end of year
Books (Fathered by God is first on list, more to come on books)

Emotional:
Coaching program
Integrated Man University (NMMNG type work) no time line on this, part of the coaching.
Bucket list for the year
52 books this year
- Already read 5 Love Languages
- Reading 4 agreements and The lost art of Communication
- listening to Codependent No more while in car
Rest on deck are (Fathered by God, Atomic Attraction, Tactical guide to Women, Atomic Habits)
**always up for more recommendations

Physical
Daily Home routine (Push-ups, PullUps)
Krav Maga
More routine gym and conditioning
Quit Nicotine products at some point this year
Get back on High Protein/Fat diet with low carbs.
One good thing about this is my body looks great from the weight loss lol

Anyways I appreciate you all, I will try to post more often, it’s a pain to have to do this from my phone. My work laptop is connected to the vpn so cannot use it. I can’t use the home of due to family always around.

[Rockon]

Way to go FM

[FwdMvmnt]

Wow,
R2C thank you for the recommendation of the 4 agreements. I can see why it needs to be read multiple times. What an amazing book! Time to be a warrior!

[BL42]

FwdMvmnt,

Your list of Spiritual, Emotional, and Physical goals is fantastic. If you stick to those throughout the year you'll be feeling incredible about yourself come 2024. Make it happen! You go this.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks BL,

I appreciate the time everyone takes to be on here. I will meet these goals 100%. I have to for myself and for my children. I need to be the best father possible for them all right now, especially S6.

[bttrfly]

I think you may want to do more than one Alanon meeting weekly ... check out the online meetings and zoom/telephone meetings.

Remember, you can't control this, didn't cause it and can't change it.

BUT you can do a lot to make it worse.

So don't. Focus on you. Drop the rope. When you don't think you can, Drop it anyway. Focus on yourself and the kids.

You didn't feel anything when she talked about two OM because your mind and heart are trying to protect you from more hurt. It's a natural response.

If anyone moves out, make it be her. Keep the kids in their routine if at all possible.

She has to truly hit a bottom before there's any hope. You know this.

Hope this helps.

xoxo

[FwdMvmnt]

Always appreciate your posts B,
I attempt to do at least 2 per week, sometimes schedule does not permit, I sometimes make upto 3 a week. I tend to forgot about the online options you mentioned, this could be a great way to get into an SA co depend meeting as well, which I think would be great. Not many resources for that addiction. My sponsor and another man I trust with great Christian fundamentals helps me with that. I am good at dropping that rope in the morning. Today has been good, getting a bit anxious as it gets later in the day, but will reach out to help.
Thanks again!

[bttrfly]

sometimes it's a minute at a time.

[Rockon]

Were you at today, FM? How are you doing?

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks for the check in Rock!
I’ve been doing pretty good. I get sucked back in here or there, being in the same house makes full detachment extremely hard especially with S6 here. When I am around her I am practicing 180s, validation and working on zero advice. I have maintained focus on myself and had a great weekend. Still doing Krav classes, reading a ton, got my Harley up and running again. Been trying to stay as busy as possible. Went to the Driving Range and Gun range with my buddy on Saturday and then watched football yesterday while she was out.

How about you?

[Rockon]

That sounds like you are doing a great job staying focused and GAL. You taking some time to evaluate what’s working for you?

[FwdMvmnt]

I know what works which is DB and detachment. I find myself getting lured back in when it feels like she is working her program or being honest. I need some 2x4s, I let myself slip into an R talk earlier today. She has been saying that she is not talking to anyone outside the marriage and does not want to be with anyone while we are in the same house. I totally dropped the ball and asked her about our situation. She came back with I know you don’t want to be friends and I don’t live you that way, she also pulled the card of I envision a husband that is my friend. She mentioned we could have an open marriage and do our own thing to keep things normal for S6. I said absolutely not. I have zero interest in that. Then of course I said so basically you don’t want to work on the marriage because you want to have sex with others. She said no that’s not the reason. This tells me there is still some sort of contact with at least one of the OM.

I realized my mistake while I was doing it, and always remember after these conversations are why we don’t have R conversations. I make progress and then take 2 steps back. This IHS is hard, I made some changes to where I work in the house to ensure less interaction through the day. She works from 1-6:30 now and then one of us leaves for the evening. I have to drop this damn rope totally. I am happy with the work I am doing on myself and will continue to do so.

[BL42]

FwdMvmnt,

Good job standing up for yourself and firmly saying no to an open marriage.

IHS is indeed incredibly difficult, especially when your W is so openly cheating and disrespecting you. At least mine attempted (poorly) to hide it?

Drop the rope for sure. Easier said than done. You made a mistake now try to be better going forward.

Keep working at it and your incredible list of Spiritual, Emotional, and Physical goals...you'll get there.

[DnJ]

Hello F

Be gentle on yourself. It is perfectly normal to have setbacks. Get up, dust off, lesson learnt, and keep moving forward.

Takes a while to drop that rope. Even with all the rope burn we endure. “Let go or be dragged” took me a while to finally get to. You’ll make it.

D

[bttrfly]

read Caliguy

[bttrfly]

start here: https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=55989&Number=2474148#Post2474148


also read HaWho:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=57886&Number=2582197#Post2582197

[DW17]

Don't beat yourself up too much over taking steps backward. I was beating myself up each time too, but I realized that it was affecting me way more than my W. Also, I learn something each time that helps me avoid doing it again. Try to view it as a learning opportunity rather than a mistake.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks BL, DnJ, bttrfly and DW,
I’m out of town on work last two days. Always find it easier to disconnect when away. I am continuing to read and listen to audible non stop. Just finished CoDependent No More, was awesome. Will definitely listen again while out traveling my markets. Just started listening to Love must be Tough. Have finished a couple books as well. I definitely have a good start on my plan for the year to continue to better myself. Like I mentioned I have been struggling a little more with detaching from W, she has been coming downstairs at night to watch TV, hugging and kissing as well as dropping a few ILY. I do not take them as anything just causes confusion in me. I know she is starting to work steps in both of her programs, which gives me hope for her. She has also gotten a little more engaged with S6. I do want the best for her. As for our marriage I am standing for it, but not holding onto Hope. I think God is really trying to show me that I need to learn patience. I give it to him each day and pray for a path to be shown. This weekend we are taking S6 to a show (we bought the tickets before BD) doing an overnight with him. I am torn for him because I know this marriage will most likely not end well and worry about him through all of this. Our 23rd anniversary is coming up at the end of the month as well, so curious as to how I’m going to feel around that time. Anyway, I just needed to get a few things out and appreciate everyone on here.

Bttrfly I read Callis threads, thank you for the recommendations. He demonstrated some great characteristics and I took a lot away from it. Also made me think about my own Sitch and timelines around how ling I want to stand. I see a lot of myself in him. I want to stand for this marriage, this situation is not a good example for my children. I want to stand for this marriage and would like to see what happens after she gets through some of the steps in her programs. I also know that I am going to be fine whether she leaves, or not. Either way I’m going to be a better man and always there for my kids. I’ll know I have all I had on my side by finding, growing and strengthening myself.

Sorry for the ramblings lol, I hate using phone for this

[Rockon]

No need to apologize and I don’t find it to be rambling but really coherent, meaningful processing FM. So impressed with your focus and integrity!

[BL42]

FwdMvmnt,

Just started listening to Love must be Tough.

This is a fantastic book for you considering your situation IMO.

Like I mentioned I have been struggling a little more with detaching from W, she has been coming downstairs at night to watch TV, hugging and kissing as well as dropping a few ILY. I do not take them as anything just causes confusion in me.

She's still engaging with OM(s), correct? If so you might not want to accept that behavior.

I know she is starting to work steps in both of her programs, which gives me hope for her.

Good.

She has also gotten a little more engaged with S6.

Good.

As for our marriage I am standing for it, but not holding onto Hope. I think God is really trying to show me that I need to learn patience. I give it to him each day and pray for a path to be shown.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

I am torn for him because I know this marriage will most likely not end well and worry about him through all of this.

See above.

[bttrfly]

You cannot do anything about his relationship with his mother, and maybe you can't stop the marriage from ending.

What you can do is be the lighthouse for your son. Be his foundation. Be his safe place, no matter what.

Is it better for him to grow up in a family with a mother who regularly loses her $h!t and tosses things into a fire as she rages around?

Be the best father you can be. Pray about it. Give it to God. Trust and wait for his answers.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thank your for your posts Rock, BL and Btt!

Rock,
Integrity is all we have, the basis of a new me as I grow forward. I slip up here and there looking at her location or texts strands, which I think is weak behavior, and only cause me anxiety, but getting better.

BL,
I do believe she has been talking with them, but not sure as to the extent. I know she is working her steps in the SA program, but with not engaging in that process with her I have no clue on her sobriety dates or anything else. I have been saying serenity pray and the 3rd and 7th step prayers non stop. I also do a guidance meditation each morning and started a nighttime Lexio Divina with the Hallow app at night.

Btt,
Love the lighthouse line. This is my goal to be there for S6 and all my kids, as well as her if she gets her sh!t together. I will not fail myself or my kids.

I’ll post an update in another thread.

[FwdMvmnt]

Hey all!
It's been awhile since my last post, and I wanted to post some updates and thoughts. We took S6 on a trip over the weekend to one of his favorite YouTube shows and he had an absolute blast. The trip was a success overall and glad that S6 enjoyed it. He loved the show, the Hotel Suite and the Room Service
While in the car there was some relationship talk, things between W and I have been pretty amicable of late, but of course it was the same talk. She wants a divorce and will be moving out when she gets enough money to do so. Her mood has been pretty good lately and she does seem to be working her programs more, which is a great thing if she sticks to it. On Sunday night I get a text from her that says

"I've been thinking during this meeting that I want to get further along in my steps before I pull the trigger on this thing."
I ask her what she means and she says "The Divorce" I replied that I didn't know how to answer that and need to think about it, would get back to her.

The next day I asked her to clarify what she meant before I could respond to her. She said I still think we need to live separate, but not sure on a divorce. I said that really doesn't change anything for me. I think it's due to the fact when we were talking in the car she mentioned we had to be separate for a year due to us having minor children. I corrected her and said we live in an at Fault state and that could most likely get that period waived if filed. Either way going to keep moving forward.

I continue to read as often as possible. 6 books down so far this year, working on one called Fathered by God and also The Lost Art of Listening. I am continuing to work my program in Al anon, almost completed with 8th step list. I also have continued to do Krav Maga, daily exercises, and getting out on my Harley as often as possible. I am determined to continue to better myself. I am standing for the marriage, but will be great either way.

[bttrfly]

My response would have been that this is something she needs to talk to her sponsor about, not me.

Is she really trying to use you as a sounding board for whether or not or when to divorce you, because that's how I read what you posted.

[DnJ]

Good Morning F

Glad son had a great weekend. A nice hotel suite and room service is pretty special to a six year old. (I still find that stuff pretty special too, at 55. Lol.)

While in the car there was some relationship talk, things between W and I have been pretty amicable of late, but of course it was the same talk. She wants a divorce and will be moving out when she gets enough money to do so.

How long was the car ride? I’m inferring significant time, since weekend trip and hotel and such. So yes, it is likely this topic would’ve come up. Did she wait until son was sleeping or occupied in a movie or something?

Her mood has been pretty good lately and she does seem to be working her programs more, which is a great thing if she sticks to it. On Sunday night I get a text from her that says

"I've been thinking during this meeting that I want to get further along in my steps before I pull the trigger on this thing."

Such meetings are to elicit self reflection and accountability. Nice to see her delaying and maybe having some second thoughts. Or third, or forth, or fiftieth thoughts. She’s flip flopping about.

I ask her what she means and she says "The Divorce" I replied that I didn't know how to answer that and need to think about it, would get back to her.

Good asking her to clarify “this thing”. Having her say aloud divorce, injects reality into her fantasy. Let her own her divorce. Which she is not as sure about, by the looks of things.

The next day I asked her to clarify what she meant before I could respond to her. She said I still think we need to live separate, but not sure on a divorce.

Interesting. She will drop plenty of clues of where she is and what she’s feeling, when you just listen.

I said that really doesn't change anything for me.

True. Separating for a year doesn’t change anything for you. But why did you tell her?

She will drop plenty of clues of where she is and what she’s feeling, when you just listen.

I think it's due to the fact when we were talking in the car she mentioned we had to be separate for a year due to us having minor children. I corrected her and said we live in an at Fault state and that could most likely get that period waived if filed. Either way going to keep moving forward.

Again, true. You are correct. You’ve done your homework regarding divorce and your potential risks and splitting of marital assets and custody. But why did you tell her?

She will drop plenty of clues of where she is and what she’s feeling, when you just listen.

Each time you told her of what you were thinking. Or corrected her. That stops her dead in her tracks, and likely reinforces her feelings of not being heard. Just listen and agree with / validate what she is saying. It’s not lying or going along with. Just listening is all. Letting her spill.

Her misunderstanding of your at fault state and no mandatory one year cool down had her pausing. Her easy-peasy divorce had come off the tracks a bit, and you put it back on. Let her fail, let her derail. A big part of her path, is her growth. And that’s without your involvement.

Remember her path/pain has very little to do with you. When she is telling you things, she doesn’t really want to hear about your stuff or views. She is trying to work her own stuff out. She doesn’t have the bandwidth for you (or anyone else) at the moment.

A truth dart here and there can be useful. However, as best you can, remain silent. Do not place her back on the rails. Do not correct her on misunderstood legal processes. And definitely, do not correct her regarding her feelings. Listen and - if/when you can - respond with prompting or follow up questions/conversation.

It’s a thin line sometimes - no R talks. Letting her talk is different. Usually LBS are too hurt and attached to just listen and gather information. And their ego get involved and the conversation gets confrontational. If she wants to talk, especially with IHS and actually questioning divorce (not attacking you), let her. It likely won’t happen that often. And don’t tip your hand about what you know.

I am determined to continue to better myself. I am standing for the marriage, but will be great either way.

Good. It’s a path you were thrust upon, and yet, a golden opportunity. Continue to make the most of it.

D

[FwdMvmnt]

Btt,
Im really not sure what she is attempting through this. As far as I know she doesn’t want the marriage, is not in Love with me. I’m curious to see how it plays out. She is working now PT and is enjoying it. She seems to be working on her programs which is great and going to both AA and SA meeting, which is also a plus. She quit going to SA for a couple months. She is also still doing IC 2x a week. The next month will be curious. My plan is no matter what to keep on moving forward, GAL, and detaching as much as possible. I’ll keep up with updates.

[FwdMvmnt]

D,
He was stoked, I travel for work, but still love suites and room service too lol. I was really excited he enjoyed himself. The car ride was 5 hours each way. Yes S was on iPad with headphones on. We have been really good to not talk around him the last few weeks. I can totally see where I could have responded differently or not at all. So true to just listen and gather. I will continue to practice my listening skills. It’s been really easy to just listen during her nightly recaps of her day. Something seems different this week, but not putting to much into it, knowing can change at anytime. Will just keep doing what I’m doing. Thanks for the response!

[bttrfly]

Btt,
Im really not sure what she is attempting through this. As far as I know she doesn’t want the marriage, is not in Love with me. I’m curious to see how it plays out. She is working now PT and is enjoying it. She seems to be working on her programs which is great and going to both AA and SA meeting, which is also a plus. She quit going to SA for a couple months. She is also still doing IC 2x a week. The next month will be curious. My plan is no matter what to keep on moving forward, GAL, and detaching as much as possible. I’ll keep up with updates.

Enough about her.

What are you doing in your program?

How goes the detachment?

How are the kids doing?

[bttrfly]

FM you really need to embrace the concept of the STFU smoothie.

You also need to wrap your mind around the fact that a divorce is like a business partnership breaking up. The partners do not coach each other on how the process works. Each side does their own due diligence.

When she starts talking about how she thinks the divorce is going to go, STFU and listen. A response isn't required. If she asks for one say something like the non-committal "Hmm."

I don't advocate prompting follow up conversations. I don't advocate prompting or follow up questions at all. That's not what a STFU smoothie is all about. If you must talk, change the conversation to something neutral.

You're forgetting something that's crucial here: she's not on team FM.

Remember that. It's easy to forget this during IHS, or when she confides in you as she always has. Remember, right now she's not your friend. She's not your partner. She's also not the enemy, but she's certainly not on team FM or team FM Family.

Don't get sucked in.

I'm sorry, I can't punch a star on your STFU smoothie card in this encounter.

Take this encounter as a lesson learned and do better next time.

[Rockon]

FM and BF,

This is so relevant for me. It is really hard but has been getting better. I am drawing on all kinds of resources (this board, prayer. Exercise, therapy and skills, friends) to stay in track with this and I am getting it more. FM you can do this.

[FwdMvmnt]

Bt,
Your post makes total sense to me. I have to start drinking more stfu smoothies. When we talk I am making a conscious effort to not provide advise and just listen. When I do this she tends to just stay on track and talk about herself and emotions. I have found it hard this week to stay totally detached. She has been starting conversations and going deeper than usual. Today she came home from IC and opened up about a ton of issues and her feelings. I will work on getting my STFU card filled up with stamps, I do forget sometime that she is not on my team. The IHS makes it so difficult to fully detach, and easy sometimes to get drawn back in, but emotionally I feel better giving what I can’t control to God. I really do appreciate your advice. I Will continue to update the post.

As for me. I am constantly working on my spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth. I am doing well in my program, hitting meetings and meeting with my sponsor on the weeks I’m in town. I am still doing weekly coaching sessions and a self paced integrated man program. Spiritually I am continue to grow my relationship and connection with God, my prayers and meditations are very healing. I love riding the Harley when weather permits and doing as much Krav as schedule allows. I am still the rock for my children which will never change and know that whatever happens here I’ll be ok.

[BL42]

The IHS makes it so difficult to fully detach, and easy sometimes to get drawn back in

For sure. IHS is incredibly difficult.

As for me. I am constantly working on my spiritual, emotional and intellectual growth. I am doing well in my program, hitting meetings and meeting with my sponsor on the weeks I’m in town. I am still doing weekly coaching sessions and a self paced integrated man program. Spiritually I am continue to grow my relationship and connection with God, my prayers and meditations are very healing. I love riding the Harley when weather permits and doing as much Krav as schedule allows. I am still the rock for my children which will never change and know that whatever happens here I’ll be ok.

Good stuff, FwdMvmnt. Keep it up. Not for your W but for yourself and you kids.

Hang in there FwdMvmnt. It's gonna get better.

[FwdMvmnt]

Hey all,
I am curious about the DB coaches. I continue to fall back into old patterns with her and nice guy ways. I am getting close to just paying for her to leave. I do not want to do this and need some additional help on this IHS situation. I am doing great with GAL and keeping up on my self help, but have trouble when we are together, which is often. I almost feel like I am going backwards in the relationship. I have all the knowledge that I am reading and learning, but struggling to put into play. I appreciate any feedback.

[Kind18]

When she starts talking about how she thinks the divorce is going to go, STFU and listen. A response isn't required.

bttrfly is 100% right.

As generally softer/more compassionate human beings, LBS are often people who are uncomfortable with silence. We feel like we have to do or say something or interact somehow to overcome the weirdness of awkward silence.

You don’t! It’s entirely reasonable to say nothing. Don’t interact, don’t validate, don’t attempt to fix, don’t agree, don’t empathise … you just sit there in silence or say “I’m listening”.

My brother is an ED social worker who works with mainly mental health and substance abuse issues. He said silence is better than ANYTHING to make the other person think carefully about their actions and what they’re saying.

He said to embrace the awkward silence. It’s a very powerful tool.

[Ready2Change]

I am curious about the DB coaches. ..I appreciate any feedback.

You could test it out. It has been a long time since I spoke with one of the DB coaches, but I believe they gave sound advise, and it was good to have the live immediate conversation vs all this typing and reading.

[bttrfly]

you know how when you're in an alanon meeting and there's dead silence for several minutes?

that's practice for your sitch at home.

[FwdMvmnt]

Kind, R2C and Btt,

Thank you for your responses. I really do need to utilize the board more often to put thoughts down. I have a lot of support that I utilize to work through my thoughts, but this place can be a great outlet for me if I’d utilize it more. I am continuing to work on myself, GAL as much as possible and be the best father I can be. I appreciate everyone on here.

[bttrfly]

FM what's going on? How are you doing ?

[Rockon]

What BF said, thinking of you FM.

[FwdMvmnt]

Hey all,
Been awhile since I have posted on here. It’s been a rollercoaster some ups and some downs. On a personal level I am still working on myself, mainly growing my relationship with God, still reading a ton, doing my coaching and Al- Anon, Krav Maga and riding my motorcycle a lot. As for my marriage it has been all over the place. I haven’t been great at DBing and get pulled back by W frequently. I felt things were getting better she mentioned wanting to start dating again, we talked about building a foundation on honesty and trust. We Had a few good weeks. She even opened up about the guys she talked to in AA, there were 2 that she stated. The last one is 22 years old, crazy. She was even opening up about her counseling and how they have been talking about how to slowly bring back physical and making sure both of us are have clear boundaries in place, etc. I didn’t take this as her wanting to come back to the marriage, but a start in the right direction. This weekend everything has gone backwards. She told me the last couple weeks were pretend and that she isn’t sure she wants to start dating,and thinks she just wants to be friends. Tonight she told me that her feelings haven’t changed and that she wants to be on her own, raise the kids on her own, not be married, doesn’t want any relationship, hates our house, etc. I totally fell backwards I’m all of my DBing. I think I just got excited that the interest was peaked and started to see a little bit of my old wife back. This time it didn’t hurt as much when she said these things, I think I expected it. It’s posted all over these boards. I know I need to get back to DBing, I hope it’s not too late. I do feel like I have been standing for my values and principles, working on being the lighthouse. I am trying to live with integrity I’m everything I do and just do the next right thing. Here is to getting back on the horse.

[Rockon]

Great to hear from you FM. Great work all of the ways you are keeping in track and moving forward in who you are and want to be. It is really difficult and exhausting I imagine getting wrapped up in W’s chaos and flakiness. How are your friendships and family going ?

[Ready2Change]

We had a few good weeks.

What do your definition of good?

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks for the reply R2C,
Good weeks to me are peace in the household and meaningful conversation. I do not have high expectations, but any growth toward the relationship I have looked as progress. I let myself get too hopeful, this is the first time it has happened where she was talking about working on the relationship and potentially dating, etc. I realize that this could happen again and today is today. In answer to your question on friendships, I have been busy with kids and haven't been out with friends the last two weeks. My family has been good, S6 is extremely stable right now, worried about him with what could be coming. D16 had prom this weekend which was awesome for her.

[FwdMvmnt]

Today I am going back to DBing by the book and started reading DR again. The conversation last night included her giving me her reasons for not wanting the marriage, which to sum it up was, she wants to do everything herself, ie take care of the kids, make her own money, do her own laundry, etc. She also said that she tried the last 2 weeks to love me, but can't make herself. I thanked her for honesty and left it at that.
This morning I spoke with an L and she recommended offering her to pay a deposit and two months rent to see if she would move out. This is the second time I have heard this from two different L. When she came downstairs I told her that I thought about what she said and that everything she described she wanted was possible in the marriage. The only thing that couldn't be done inside the marriage is other people, so my assumption is this is part of the reason she wants to leave. I told her that just because she hasn't been physical with these people, that I could not be a part of talking and texting others inappropriately. I proposed what the L stated and asked her if I did this would she go? Her answer was I don’t know, I don’t have a full time job yet. I want to talk to my counselor. Now as I think on it this could come off as controlling and I still don’t want to pay for anything for her to leave, but I put it out there. Part of me is hoping she accepts and part of me is not. I also reset up our weekly calendar for days with kids.

[Ready2Change]

She also said that she tried the last 2 weeks to love me, but can't make herself. I thanked her for honesty and left it at that.

That type of answer gets you into friend zone...and that is not where you want to be.


First, she has to miss you. Second, the resentment has to fade away. Third, she needs to respect you. At some point after that, the attraction may return, then the love. Admiration is in there someplace as well.


I find that "misinterpreting" and using humor and keeping it extremely light and fun with sexual undertones is a much better way to attract than to be serious.

[MikeP]

Hey Fwd, sounds like are wives are in similar places. I made it clear to mine that I wasn’t interested in the friend zone. If we were to D then I would want some level of friendship eventually because of the kids and our long history together. As a couple though it’s not something I want. At least they are “trying”, that’s better than some folks get. Hang in there, I know it’s tough.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks Mike, I agree it is tough.

[FwdMvmnt]

Letter I wrote to W, probably won’t send it, but figured I’d come here to post it. Hope everyone is well!


The last few days I have been processing this whole separation, the adultery, the emotional affairs and inappropriate conversations with those outside our marriage, which is adultery to me. I also processing the lack of remorse about what you your sins have done to God, Me and our family. I am accepting the how big of deal this really is and that you do not have the desire to make it right. You can make all the excuses you want on how it is right or why you have committed these sins, but the bottom line that is what they are Sins. I am angry.

I have asked you to build a foundation of trust and honesty with me within the confines of marriage. You do not want to. I have given you space to work things out, you haven’t. I have been a faithful husband through this all no matter what is happening, you keep taking. You are only worried about yourself through this and are not taking into consideration how it affects this family. Your actions of adultery and continued communication with others, your decisions that you make without regard for me and the children are too much for me. I have asked you to read about the spiritual effects of these actions have on God, Me and the children, and how divorce affects the family, especially the kids. Instead you get a job that puts more strain on everyone else to save money so you can leave. Your sins have cost this family much. I cannot allow it any longer. You have lost me.

If you want to be in this relationship at all with me, I will want a full disclosure on any actions that have happened outside this marriage up-to this point. I will want all communication and in person interactions to stop with these paramour [censored] heads. I will want ongoing honesty and transparency from you. This will be the start. I have zero intentions of being a part of this relationship until you are willing to put in the work. You say you want to be friends? Friends do not do what you have done to our family. Friends do not bail on those they care about. Friends do not bring filth into their relationship and expect the other to eat it. I am moving forward with God and our family. If you want to come along this is what I will need. I’ll give you until Sunday night to make a decision.

[Rockon]

Whew, that is sobering and direct.

[bttrfly]

Exactly what are you hoping to gain if you send this letter?

[FwdMvmnt]

Hi Bf,

I’m writing thoughts out that I’ve wanted to say for awhile and haven’t. I’ve done mediocre DB while working on myself. I’m to a point where I know that I’m good without her, and I don’t think anyone is telling her what the consequences for her family is by her actions. I have remained silent and understanding through most of this with her. I can’t do it anymore, I have to drop the rope for further personal growth. She told me the other night that she slipped and texted this 22 year old she’s been talking to and also took on different hours at work. The assumptions of me being here for her to make money to leave me is absurd. She knows that I will take care of the kids and the house. This would put out there that exactly what I expect from her if she wanted to have any relationship with me. I know she will be asking why my change of attitude and this explains it without a conversation. I have no idea if I will send, leaning towards not, but I’ve never been this black and white with her. Im not giving up on the marriage, but as a Christian I think she needs to be confronted and I don’t think anyone else is doing that. I hope that makes sense.

[Boat14]

I think the question you should ask yourself before sending the letter. What is your move if she reads the letter and then she laughs in your face? This imo is the most likely outcome.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks Boat,
I agree, probably some anger too. At least I said my piece and can move forward, I have yet to be this blunt. Like I said leaning toward not sending, wanted to get thoughts out and going to try to utilize this board more. I find the format hard on my phone, wish there was a live coaching program still.

[bttrfly]

Hi Bf,

I’m writing thoughts out that I’ve wanted to say for awhile and haven’t.

So, this is for you, not her. A venting of your spleen? Which, btw, is perfectly understandable and ok to get out, but not necessarily getting you closer to your goal of staying married to her.

I don’t think anyone is telling her what the consequences for her family is by her actions.

Why do you think this is your job? She's fired you as her husband. Do not forget that.

I have remained silent and understanding through most of this with her. I can’t do it anymore, I have to drop the rope for further personal growth.

I understand dropping the rope. Do you honestly think this letter is dropping the rope? Seems more like planting a bomb.

She told me the other night that she slipped and texted this 22 year old she’s been talking to and also took on different hours at work.

That must have been very hard to hear.

The assumptions of me being here for her to make money to leave me is absurd. She knows that I will take care of the kids and the house.

Yes, you are the responsible one. The Father figure. How's her relationship with her own father, btw? Just curious.

This would put out there that exactly what I expect from her if she wanted to have any relationship with me.

But FM, she's told you that she doesn't want to be married to you any more. She wants to move out. She wants to be friends.

Your letter, and forgive me for the harshness here - all it says is that you're stuck. You still believe you're in a marriage. Your marriage, AS IT WAS, is OVER.

I'll go further (because you knew there was more, right?)

You're coming off as judgmental, condescending, demanding, controlling, far more an authoritarian parent than a wronged partner. Did you behave this way during your marriage? Did any of that behaviour maybe play into your being here in the first place?

You are not responsible for her addictions. Plural.
You are not responsible for her recovery, should she choose to be in recovery.
You did not create the $h!tstorm inside of her brain, BUT you can certainly make things a h3ll of a lot worse.

Sending this letter? That will only make things worse.

You remember the setting fire to things incidents? Plural. Do you or your kids really need a replay of that?

Ultimatums don't work, ever, with anyone.

I know she will be asking why my change of attitude and this explains it without a conversation.

That letter is a cop-out. You're here to learn how to communicate. Communication is a two way street. Use your words wisely. Listen deeply. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. How's the STFU smoothie card? Gotten any more smoothies punched out? This letter will just get you punched out.

And anything you put in writing can and will probably be used against you in a divorce.

I have no idea if I will send, leaning towards not, but I’ve never been this black and white with her. Im not giving up on the marriage, but as a Christian I think she needs to be confronted and I don’t think anyone else is doing that. I hope that makes sense.

You're not God, the priest or her minister. It isn't your job to point out any of that to her. It comes off as really offensive and self-righteous. Why don't you hand it to her with divorce papers, because giving her this letter is going to blow up in your face big time.


I'm not saying be a Persian carpet for her to walk all over. There are better ways to make your points. First, what's your ultimate goal - Yours, not hers. What is your ultimate goal for this marriage?

[Ready2Change]

STFU and take action. That is what woman find attractive in men. Be attractive.

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks Bt,
Always appreciate your responses.

Yes I do feel it is for me and why I posted here. Came really close to sending, but decided to go this route instead. I realize she fired me as her husband, although she seems to like the benefits of being married I don’t feel like she’s ever felt the consequences of her actions, which I have played a large part in. This message would lay it clear that I don’t intend to do it any longer. I think part of it is me wanting to give her a reason for the DBing that is taking place and ramping up. She makes decisions knowing that I will pick up the slack with our kids.

“ understand dropping the rope. Do you honestly think this letter is dropping the rope? Seems more like planting a bomb.”

- I see you point here for sure. Is there ever a time to drop a bomb? In my state my only course of action is to divorce to have her leave the house. I do not want to be the one to leave at all and not ready for Divorce. I will stay the course for now with some big time DB.

“Yes, you are the responsible one. The Father figure. How's her relationship with her own father, btw? Just curious.“

- They are not very close emotionally. My In Laws are still married but more like long time friends. They don’t sleep in same room and my FIL is not very engaged with what goes on around him. He is a good man, but seems to stay disengaged.


“You're coming off as judgmental, condescending, demanding, controlling, far more an authoritarian parent than a wronged partner. Did you behave this way during your marriage? Did any of that behaviour maybe play into your being here in the first place?”

- I believe that my codependency has enabled and been controlling and manipulative in the past yes. I also am working through all of that I’m Al-Anon and with Christ. I can see how this comes off as that.

“You are not responsible for her addictions. Plural.
You are not responsible for her recovery, should she choose to be in recovery.
You did not create the $h!tstorm inside of her brain, BUT you can certainly make things a h3ll of a lot worse.”

- Didn’t Cause it, Can’t Control it, Can’t cure it

“You remember the setting fire to things incidents? Plural. Do you or your kids really need a replay of that?”

- oh yes, those were good times.

“Ultimatums don't work, ever, with anyone.”

- Makes sense based on what I’ve read. I will continue with plan to hardcore DB and see what it brings.

“That letter is a cop-out. You're here to learn how to communicate. Communication is a two way street. Use your words wisely. Listen deeply. Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em. How's the STFU smoothie card? Gotten any more smoothies punched out? This letter will just get you punched out.”

- I 100% agree on communication. My smoothie card has quite a few spaces to go still, but it will be filled soon enough. I have to utilize the board more, wish it was a better format for phones. I do bounce a lot off of my program support people for myself, but marriage advice is all over the place. Need to stay here with what works.

“ You're not God, the priest or her minister. It isn't your job to point out any of that to her. It comes off as really offensive and self-righteous. Why don't you hand it to her with divorce papers, because giving her this letter is going to blow up in your face big time.”

- Agreed I am not any of those. I am her husband, it is hard to watch the degradation of one you love. Another reason I didn’t hit send. I do try to put it in Gods hands each day.

“I’m not saying be a Persian carpet for her to walk all over. There are better ways to make your points. First, what's your ultimate goal - Yours, not hers. What is your ultimate goal for this marriage?”

- My ultimate goal for me is to be the Man I was created to be. To be a man that has peace and health in all aspects of my life. I want to live with integrity and by my values. I have been blessed with what I have been given and have to be the best me to be able to hold onto anything. I am a work in progress, but have grown immensely in so many areas.
- For my marriage my goal is to keep my marriage and family together. Not I’m the way it was but a new healthy marriage and family with God as the foundation.

Thanks again B!

[FwdMvmnt]

Thanks R2C,
Thats the plan, long overdue

[FwdMvmnt]

New day today!
Heading to D16 softball game!
Nothing too eventful yesterday. W did tell me she got her 90 day coin in AA.
Personally I’ve struggled a bit with the DB and no kissing, hugging, etc. We had been kissing, hugging, even unprompted ILY up until 2 days ago when I started renewing my DBing efforts. I know I’ll get over it, but sometimes feel like not doing these things puts me deeper into the friend zone. I also feel like this could reflect to her how I used to be when I didn’t get my way, kind of shunning her, which was manipulation or covert contracts at that time. I’ll continue to be chipper and GAL. Hope everyone is well!

[Boat14]

If you stay on your path you will understand that when you love and value yourself you will have no desire to hug a kiss a person who has been unfaithful. You will also never allow yourself to be put in the friend zone. It takes time and is all part of the process.

[DnJ]

Good Morning F

I’m glad you wrote the letter and did not send it.

It is good to see a current overview of one’s situation. However, realize this is the snapshot of today. It will change. A sent letter will not.

I’m writing thoughts out that I’ve wanted to say for awhile and haven’t.

Lots of feelings in those words as well.

Feelings and thoughts do fade. Things that are white hot right now become less important somewhat. It’s part of the journey towards acceptance.

I have asked you to build a foundation of trust and honesty with me within the confines of marriage.

I have asked you to read about the spiritual effects of these actions have on God, Me and the children, and how divorce affects the family, especially the kids.

You’ve already told her. No need to again.

Is there ever a time to drop a bomb?

There is never a good time to drop a bomb. Consider the aftermaths of our spouses bomb dropping. Bombs are good for destruction. And cause plenty of collateral damage.

The chances of something like this letter waking her up is very remote. And some of the damages would be much more acrimonious relations and/or negotiations in the future.

I don’t think anyone is telling her what the consequences for her family is by her actions.

I have given you space to work things out, you haven’t.

F, W is on her timeline, not your’s. Her working out of things will be almost all internal and hidden from your view. And her processing will be slow, much slower than your’s. Do not conclude or place expectations of where or when she is, or what she is not doing, along her journey.

As to consequences: You do not want any hand in those. Leave her to God.

None of us are wise enough to know all ends. Any pushing or manipulating of our spouse’s path could yield some manner of result. A result which one cannot predict. You do not want the responsibility of her life’s direction upon your head. Leave that to her.

From your snapshot letter, consider what you can control and influence.

I am angry.

I am moving forward with God and our family.

Continue processing your emotions and grief.

Continue moving forward.

You’ve laid out, for yourself, a pretty good picture and understanding of where W currently is. Use that. Give it to God. Seek to find forgiveness.

You have well defined the sins. Now separate person from the sin; a good person behaving badly. We are not judge of the soul. Do not define her from her behaviour.

Love the sinner. Forgive the sin.

Important, you do not forgive the person. Trying to do that places one on a moral judgemental high ground. And who are we to decide upon who to bestow forgiveness? Love the person. Be kind and compassionate. Be understanding. Have empathy.

We forgive the deeds.

This process does not preclude holding one accountable and responsible for their actions. Forgiveness is not a free pass. It releases you. You write paid in full upon the invoice you are holding. It frees you from vengeance, and holding a grudge.

I was blessed to have found forgiveness rather quickly. A few months post BD I had a hellish nightmare of W’s eternal torment. Right then and there, I got up, knelt beside the bed, and in the dark of the night I begged God to forgive her. Ha, me a mere mortal trying to tell God that W did not deserve such a fate.

I realized I wanted no hand in her fate for this life or the after. I cannot judge her, the person. I also cannot judge her deeds, for I do not know all the mitigating circumstances that lead to her life choices.

I can hold her accountable sans judgement.

I can love her, and forgive her sins/deeds.

That was likely one of the most pivotal moments of my life. Absolutely life altering!

That night was the last night of a bad restless sleep. From the next day onward, I slept soundly and fully. My anger evaporated. I still worked through withdrawal, depression, and so on. Letting go, finding acceptance and peace.

Forgiving myself took a while longer. And was also a pivotal moment along my life’s journey. It was likewise freeing.

D

[bttrfly]

FM at the root of your situation is your wife's active addiction, which is playing out in many forms (Sex, booze, self will run riot). Active addicts will not stop regardless of begging, pleading, anger, ultimatums, or the damage they cause to themselves and those around them. She has a disease, plain and simple, and that is running her. While she's active anything coming out of her mouth is the disease talking. When you engage you aren't talking to your wife, you are talking to her disease. When you engage, you lose. I know you know this, but it bears repeating.

This post is full of 2x4s for both you, and frankly other posters who do not understand active addiction or what Alanon is about and are trying to help you, but may inadvertently be making more problems for you in the short and long term. That being said, read on:

You want to give her a victim impact statement. It's way too early for that, friend. If she goes to a treatment facility, that may be part of the program, midway through. Right now, she's rubber and you're glue ...

You want to give her a LRT letter. There's no fertile ground for any of that to take root. Way too soon for that, also.

What makes an addict seek recovery?

THEY decide they've had enough.

THEY hit bottom.

THEY have a spiritual awakening.

Do you notice what word is missing from those sentences?

YOU.

Listen, I get it. I really do. With all due respect to anyone else's advice - this isn't about a WW or MLC. This is pure and simple addiction running rampant and no amount of 'manning up' is going to stop or change this in any way, shape or form.

Writing a letter in which you get to tell her everything she's doing wrong, what a spiritually and morally bankrupt person she is, and how victimized you all are by her is actually the very antithesis of dropping the rope. What you are really doing is holding tightly to that rope and virtually whipping her with it. Is that really the man you want to be, for yourself, your children, your wife?

How are you going to save your marriage and have hope for the kind of relationship with your wife that you outlined in your response to me?

Well, first of all, doesn't SHE need to be the person who is capable of being that kind of a partner to you? That would require sobriety and recovery, would it not? Something SHE has to want for herself.

How does she get to a point where she wants recovery? You letting her go is the first step.

I want you to think long and hard about your attitude and tone towards her. IF she hits bottom, IF she decides she wants to turn her life around, WHY would she come to you if you lead with self-righteousness, anger, ultimatums, moral superiority, control? She'll have enough guilt, shame and remorse without you adding to it. In fact, guilt, shame and remorse often keeps someone in active addiction long past the time when they actually do want to seek recovery. Don't add to that stumbling block. At the very least, it's not kind, nor is it compassionate.

I want to remind you that alcoholism and addiction is a disease, just like cancer, heart disease, diabetes. I'm pretty sure you'd treat her with compassion if she had any other disease, so what makes this different? The damage an active addict causes to themselves and those around them is astounding, but while you're protecting yourself and your children do not lose sight of the fact that she has a disease and needs help and compassion. Sometimes the only help we can give is to step back and out of the way and let them face the consequences of their actions without interference or judgment.

Man up. Give me a freaking break. This isn't something you can man up. This is so far beyond that. You know how you man up?

Your focus needs to shift OFF of her, her actions, what she's doing, and all the other stuff you wrote in that letter.

Your focus needs to be on YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. That shift in focus is what is meant by dropping the rope. You need to detach.

BTW, there is an AA book called Drop the Rock. All about Step 6. You may want to give it a read.


I'm going to talk to you as I would a Sponsee:

1.) Get a dictionary and a journal/notebook. Start looking up words and writing out definitions:

* Compassion

* Fierce Compassion

* Detachment

* Boundaries

* Co-dependency

* Equanimity

* Self righteousness

* Ultimatum

* Control


2.) Once you have the definitions WRITTEN OUT, I want you to pray and meditate on each one. I want you to think about all the ways you've practiced each word, your successes and more importantly, your failures. Then I want you to journal how you can turn those failures around. And do this while praying for guidance.

3.) Double down on your Alanon meetings. Actively listen without sharing yourself at one meeting per week.

4.) Go back over what you've written in your step work. You may find that you have things you want to add, especially in steps 1-3.

5.) Look at your relationship to the drama her addiction creates. Think about your relationship to it, what it costs you, what participating in it brings you. Journal about it. One of your goals is to make sure you do not create or add more drama.

I'm just going to lay this out here, because sadly, I think you need to think seriously about this: if she decides to file for D, you need to decide how you want the business end of your marriage to play out.

If/When she moves out of the marital home, will the kids - most especially your 6 year old - be safe in her company, unsupervised? He has already said he doesn't feel safe during her rages. Will your 16 year old daughter be safe, especially if there are men coming into the home?

Be honest. Assess this situation. Have you documented her episodes of lighting things on fire and other behaviors, the texting with other men, the incidents ? If not, why not? Get a notebook or put it in your phone, go back through your posts here and document what's happened, dates, times if you have them. She's already got texts to family members saying you make her feel threatened, cut off her access to credit cards and made her feel unsafe. Don't think for a second that won't be used against you. Document that your son said he didn't feel safe. Financially and physically protecting yourself and your kids needs to be your priority here.

Each human being is given freedom of choice. We may not respect the choices other people make, but we have zero right to deny them their choice. Don't deny her freedom of choice, but don't forget you also have freedom of choice - to act, or react. Be proactive in your choices for yourself and your family. There are ways to be firm in boundaries with fierce compassion. Lead with that, as often as you can, to the very best of your ability. That, my friend, is truly manning up.

[FwdMvmnt]

D,
Thank you for your response. The way you bring things to clarity is amazing. I always appreciate your insight. I do forget at times that the sins do not define the person. I know this and allow my personal hurt and feelings to cloud this. I always look forward to your posts on my sitch and everyone else’s. Thank you!

[FwdMvmnt]

Bttrfly,
Wow, that post really hit home for me. I hear about how I am talking to the disease from my sponsor all the time, I realize it and then get sucked back into my own head. This post means the world to me as does your 2x4s please keep them coming. I will get working on the exercise you provided me, and post my results. I do not have everything written down, but do have all text messages from her and my ring footage downloaded. I do hope it doesn’t come to that and she gets better with or without being in our marriage. I will also be purchasing the book you recommended. I know that i allow the disease to cloud my judgement and then focus on how to save a marriage instead or how to grow myself. I’ve come so far and want to keep moving forward. The good news is a healthy me, can help create a new relationship either with her or someone else down the road. I have to maintain my focus on God and my growth. Thank you again for your post. More to come.

[FwdMvmnt]

New thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2944403&#Post2944403