What to do 2

[MikeP]

Chapter 2

Previous Thread

[MikeP]

DNJ

Unsure about our future? Sometimes I am because I am doing my best to forgive the betrayal, but I wonder if I'm fooling myself.
My anger towards the OM doesn't help but I'm just not there yet. The piece of sh!t had the nerve to tell her he loved her in front of me, that is going to take a long time to let go of. Something I am still harboring anger about that I haven't mentioned is that she used my daughter as a means to meet him out. My daughter was at a park playing basketball with this guy while I'm home working on our house. Also met him at a basketball game and played it off as a coincidence to my daughter. I still struggle forgiving her for that, maybe more than sleeping with him. I may not have been a perfect husband, never thought I was, but have done my best to be as good a dad as I can be. My d13 and I are super close. I've coached her since she started softball and travel ball at 8. We're always on the road together, taking out of town trips for ball, etc. It felt like a worse betrayal using my girl to help her meet him out than actually meeting him out, if that makes sense.

[DnJ]

Thanks for linking your threads. That makes it easier for those following you and reading along.

By the way, if you want to dress up your linking you can use the URL command. Just press the quote button on the initial post to see its syntax using your actually address.

Basically:

[ url=Web Address]Displayed Text[/url]

Note: I left a space between “[“ and “url” otherwise it would be seen as the command and it won’t display. Need to remove that space when actually using the command.

Web Address - The address of the page or post your are wanting to link to.

Displayed Text - The blue text that will be displayed, which when pressed will take the reader to the aforementioned Web Address.

[DW17]

Jesus. I was reading DW17’s thread and the talk getting lawyers, negotiating caused to start having anxiety/tearing up. God damn I’m a wimp.

You are not a wimp at all. I had these feelings almost daily for awhile as well. There were several days where it was hard being at work and I would have to go for walks until I was ready to come back. It's tough. But it has gotten better as time has progressed. This was the first time in my life I've ever had anxiety. I could never relate to my wife, daughter or anyone else I knew that suffered from anxiety because I didn't understand it. So I'm much more empathetic to it now. But even the anxiety has subsided to the point where it's only an occasional background feeling. As others have mentioned, the single best thing that has worked for me when I start getting strong emotions is to exercise. I hop on the treadmill or go walk the dog for an hour and calm my nerves. I use that time to try and think things through, and find a good approach to whatever I'm dealing with. Yes, I still fail to do this at times, but all you can do is try your best, keep pushing ahead and create more successful days than failures.

I'll keep following along with your thread. I wish you the best.

[DnJ]

Mike, that makes perfect sense.

Acceptance and forgiveness are closely linked. Or can be if one seeks that.

One can find a resigned acceptance to loss and the facts of the situation. Harbouring ill will and grudges to the parties involved.

Betrayal cuts deep and those wounds will heal. How well, and how much of a scar… we do influence that for ourselves.

Compassion, understanding, empathy, forgiveness, and acceptance is freeing. Forgiving is for you, not her.

I’m not suggesting you need to, or even will find forgiveness right away soon. Things take time. Especially to do right. And you want to do this right.

My point is to illustrate, demonstrate, show you that one can forgive. That your current feelings are not forever; even though they feel like that.

In time your anger will/can lessen and dissipate. Thing will look much different down the road than they do right now.

So no, you are not fooling yourself. You are crafting and imagining the possibility of forgiveness. And imagination is the first step in creation. If you cannot imagine forgiving, you’ll never acquire it. If you can imagine the possibility, then you’ve taken the most important step along that path.

It’s a most worthy journey my friend.

Healing from betrayal is hard. One’s default is to harden against the pain and possible future pains. Do not calcify your heart, keep it soft and squishy. My own betrayal wounds were incredibly deep. And healed equally as incredibly.

It is possible. For today it’s enough to just believe that.

D

[MikeP]

Jesus. I was reading DW17’s thread and the talk getting lawyers, negotiating caused to start having anxiety/tearing up. God damn I’m a wimp.

You are not a wimp at all. I had these feelings almost daily for awhile as well. There were several days where it was hard being at work and I would have to go for walks until I was ready to come back. It's tough. But it has gotten better as time has progressed. This was the first time in my life I've ever had anxiety. I could never relate to my wife, daughter or anyone else I knew that suffered from anxiety because I didn't understand it. So I'm much more empathetic to it now. But even the anxiety has subsided to the point where it's only an occasional background feeling. As others have mentioned, the single best thing that has worked for me when I start getting strong emotions is to exercise. I hop on the treadmill or go walk the dog for an hour and calm my nerves. I use that time to try and think things through, and find a good approach to whatever I'm dealing with. Yes, I still fail to do this at times, but all you can do is try your best, keep pushing ahead and create more successful days than failures.

I'll keep following along with your thread. I wish you the best.

I went through the daily anxiety and sadness in the beginning as well. It definitely has made me more empathetic as well, never understood it. For the most part I'm over the anxiety feeling as well but thinking about lawyers and negotiating a divorce was more than I could handle. I also enjoy go for a run or to the gym when things get to me, unfortunately my back issue sidetracked that for the better part of a month. Started back Sunday and it's been great. I'll be following yours as well and thanks for the support.

[MikeP]

Thanks DnJ. This board has been a blessing. Messaging with guys that have gone through it is so helpful. I have two guy friends that know what's going on but it's hard for me to talk about a lot of this in person with them. I guess I'm always wondering what they think, and if I'm being honest it's embarrassing to talk about my wife sleeping with another man with them.

[MikeP]

Question for anyone following along that was able to reconcile after a PA. I guess anyone can answer really if you have some good advice. We are almost 8 months in and I still struggle with images of them having sex. In the beginning my problems were the typical male, ego driven problem-was it better, was he bigger, etc. Now I don't care about that, I just think about her being with him and randomly have images flash in my mind. I can usually shut it down but the damage is done. I guess maybe more time is the answer? I have even had these images pop in my head while we have been having sex, doesn't get much more screwed up than that. Again, maybe there are no answers but it can't hurt to ask.

[Mach40]

Question for anyone following along that was able to reconcile after a PA. I guess anyone can answer really if you have some good advice. We are almost 8 months in and I still struggle with images of them having sex. In the beginning my problems were the typical male, ego driven problem-was it better, was he bigger, etc. Now I don't care about that, I just think about her being with him and randomly have images flash in my mind. I can usually shut it down but the damage is done. I guess maybe more time is the answer? I have even had these images pop in my head while we have been having sex, doesn't get much more screwed up than that. Again, maybe there are no answers but it can't hurt to ask.

I can understand your images etc.
Women think of mental connection more so than the physical we think of.
That being said, it will take a long time to rid yourself of the images of her with another man. Natural.
Only you can truly see past that.
I am sure someone with wiser and more experienced thoughts will come by and talk.

[kml]

Sounds silly, but two things helped me when reconciling after his affair (years later we did divorce, but that’s another story for another day).

1) You wouldn’t keep rewatching a really awful movie, would you? (Think Gigli lol). So why keep rewatching these scenes in your head?

2) When you start to envision those things, picture a big red STOP sign. Sounds silly but it worked.

[DnJ]

Hello Mike

Time.

You are 8 months in and have let go the stereotypical ego driven problems. You have, and are, making good progress.

I can usually shut it down but the damage is done.

And healing is happening.

I do hope you realize that.

kml’s suggested strategies do work. The stop sign is a conscious controlled by you mechanism to halt unwanted runaway or wandering thoughts.

And I can attest to the movie analogy. For me, watching the same imagined movie over and over of W and OM, basically just got boring. It’s a more subconscious influence type resolution.

Of course this all goes hand in hand with detachment, indifference, letting go, and so on. We heal on multiple fronts simultaneously.

D

[MikeP]

Terrible weekend, all my fault. Lots of anger has been building up and unfortunately, I let some of it out Saturday. We were at d13's basketball game and at some point my wife was talking about the game her and d13 watched last winter before d was old enough to play high school ball, she's still in middle school. That was when she took d to the game and met the OM there. I of course was instantly pissed that she would bring that up, and she could tell by the look on my face. She kept asking what was wrong but there were people around so I just said nothing. Finally she asked when we were alone and I let her have it. Basically asking how she could possibly bring that up to me. Telling her it was maybe the most hurtful thing she had done and she did it multiple times, using d13 as a means to meet him. Sitting in a gym full of people I know, we know, with another man. How could you humiliate me like that, etc. We went home and I left for a couple of hours. Went on a long hike. She was understandably still upset when I got back. I apologized for blowing up but asked how she thought it would be ok to bring that up. We talked awhile and smoothed things over as best we could and actually went to lunch together before d's later game that night.
Yesterday morning started out fine until she started getting ready for the gym. I asked which of her friends were working out with her, she said neither of them were going. Btw, it's a crossfit gym but she does bootcamp style work outs instead of crossfit. So I asked who she was going to work out with, one of the guys that are always there? She said maybe, why does it matter? Asked what I was accusing her of? She had also told me Friday she was talking to a truck driver at work about our son. He told her about a place he knew that was hiring. The OM was originally a truck driver at her work when they started the A, he's now in the warehouse where she is. Anyway, I told her I have a problem with her once again have relationships with guys at work that are of a personal nature and I have a problem with her working out with guys I don't know. They almost always partner up to do the work outs, it's not like they are just in the same building working out. The thought of her once again talking about our personal life to another guy at work is unacceptable. It's the exact scenario as before. Her having male friends that I don't know seems unacceptable at this point. These aren't friends she knew before me. I didn't get angry at first, I just tried to explain how I felt and why I thought it was wrong. She became defensive and angry so I responded with anger as well. I left again and went for a short hike with my son and our dog. She ended up not going to the gym but left for a couple of hours after s17 went to work. D13 was gone all day at my sisters house. I cleaned house like a madman trying to burn off my anger and nervous energy. We talked for a bit when she got home. She doesn't know if she wants to keep trying or maybe separate. I'm against separating and told her as much but also acknowledged it's not my decision. I went out for a couple of hours to watch basketball and have some dinner and drinks. Came home and she was very upset, crying saying she doesn't know how to move forward. I once again reiterated that I want to make things work and am not in favor of separating. I told her that I didn't want to talk anymore unless she had something left to say and that in my opinion we can't move forward until she figures out what she wants.
Not done yet unfortunately. I went to bed while she watched tv. Woke up around midnight and she was still in the living room watching tv. I got up to get a drink. Sat down next to her and proceeded to have an emotional melt down. It just came over me like a wave and I couldn't stop. I told her that I was tired of hurting her and tired of seeing her so unhappy all the time. I told her to just go and be happy, find whatever she's looking for. This went on for awhile with her telling me she doesn't want to leave, she just doesn't know what she wants. I cried like a freaking baby and just kept telling her go and get away from me that I deserve to be alone and she deserves to be happy. I don't know where that came from, I've never really felt that way before but I just had this overwhelming feeling of being a pos and hating myself. Not my finest moment. I finally calmed down and she came to bed with me, around 3 am. Had to be up for work at 4:30, so that sucked. I don't know what happens next. I'll get back on track today, I hope I haven't screwed it up even worse.

[LH19]

Mikey P I feel like you know where you went wrong so I don't think there is a need to rehash it except to say pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back on the horse.

A long term goal for you to look into is learning to control your emotions. It's a game changer for men.

[MikeP]

Thanks LH.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Mike

Sorry man. At times this is quite a turbulent path. Plenty of emotions will get stirred up.

It just came over me like a wave and I couldn't stop.

Denial Mike. Perfectly normal and healthy.

As we heal, we pull “old” bandages off. This often rips open some unrealized underlying deeper part of the wound. Stuff we denied ourselves.

Denial is a protective mechanism of our psyche. For if everything was thrust upon us all at once we’d just break. So, our minds ignore some things until one is healed enough to start to process it. Then begins anger, bargaining, depression, and eventually acceptance of said “part” of the whole.

Lots of anger has been building up and unfortunately, I let some of it out Saturday.

Anger is normal. Letting it out is normal. The unfortunate part is how you let it out. You now realize and know how your feelings are building. Find safe and controlled mechanisms and time and place to purge the anger from you. It has to come out. That’s healthy and needed. Do it on your terms and time, when and where you can.

I told her that I was tired of hurting her and tired of seeing her so unhappy all the time. I told her to just go and be happy, find whatever she's looking for. This went on for awhile with her telling me she doesn't want to leave, she just doesn't know what she wants.

Tired of “hurting her”. Interesting wording. Do you feel (or think, or believe) you are hurting her. If so, how? What can you do to cease that, or limit that?

My first read of your post, I read “tired of hurting”. As in you are tired of hurting. Interesting that your focus during that conversation was elsewhere.

Mike, when you stop hurting inside, you’ll not “hurt” her. That’s the path. Deal with you and your stuff. That’s within your control. The rest is influenced from that which you shine. Find your light. Let it shine.

I find your emotional meltdown to be one of the finer moment, IMHO. Certainly not to be displayed daily or weekly. However, it’s open vulnerable honest.

The outcome was interestingly positive. W says she isn’t looking to leave. Says she doesn’t know what she wants. But she implies she knows leaving isn’t it. So, no more giving her ideas, or leading her along that path / line of thought.

We were at d13's basketball game and at some point my wife was talking about the game her and d13 watched last winter before d was old enough to play high school ball, she's still in middle school. That was when she took d to the game and met the OM there. I of course was instantly pissed that she would bring that up…

A couple of things.

You got instantly upset. Resolve that. You are captain of your ship. Heart and soul. Steer yourself away from the rocks and find the calmer waters. See IC if that works for you. Be specific with what bothers you regarding OM. Not with W! With yourself, or IC, or here. Not with W! And work through it.

It’s normal to get upset and angry. Life throws stuff at us all the time. You can control / influence your emotions. The control part is forcibly shifting your focus elsewhere and not letting your mind and emotions run off. You can control (mostly) when you let the anger out.

Feelings are fleeting. They are temporary and require reinforcement to remain present and active. Once you resolve your underlying reinforcement regarding OM and all that, the triggered emotions dissolve.

A far less pressing example is the person who cuts you off in traffic. Sure one can get mad, or one can shrug and let it go. Feelings do flit usually within a minute, when one doesn’t flame the flames.

Beliefs are different. Long term reinforcement and thoughts and actions turn temporary feelings into a deep conviction. Ensure your beliefs are ones that serve you.

Last year’s game is in the past. The immutable past. W cannot take it back. I know you wish it didn’t happen, however you and her can only go forward. How? Well that is actually, partly up to you. Lead and shine.

W will also test you. She will test to see if you have forgiven her, how you feel regarding her past behaviour, see if your changes are real or a ploy, and such. Sometimes she will do this knowingly, however most of the time it is a subconscious thing. She won’t know why she brought something up. Part of her processing too.

Telling her it was maybe the most hurtful thing she had done and she did it multiple times, using d13 as a means to meet him. Sitting in a gym full of people I know, we know, with another man. How could you humiliate me like that, etc.

I do understand and empathize. I was once right where you are. Realize she humiliated herself more. Not you. I get that you feel humiliated, yet are you really? Think about that. Stop blaming you for her behaviours. It’s pretty common for the cheated to blame themselves for their spouse to stray. That’s is quite a mess of tangled feelings and triggers and such to work through. Believe me, once you sort that out, you’ll feel better, and be better.

As for the gym full of people you and her know. Don’t sweat it. (Presently, easier said than done.) Folks really don’t watch her or you that much. They got their own life and problems.

Came home and she was very upset, crying saying she doesn't know how to move forward. I once again reiterated that I want to make things work and am not in favor of separating. I told her that I didn't want to talk anymore unless she had something left to say and that in my opinion we can't move forward until she figures out what she wants.

Mike, next time, do not tell her such things. Just validate. She shared her feelings and her fears. Say, “I’m sorry you are upset”. You could add something like, I believe we can move forward. We don’t need to know exactly how right this moment.

Ultimatums will not work. She is looking for her path. Got to give her the time and space to do so. Elsewise, she will just take it.

She is still there. Be supportive (not combative) when she is opening up. She has to lead her path. On her time. Your job is your path.

Anyhow, you’ve said your piece. And cleared the air somewhat. No need to tell her again.

I’m sure you do not feel good about Saturday’s encounter. Letting her have it isn’t going to wake her up any faster. Focus on you. Be better, not bitter. Work towards understanding, compassion, empathy, acceptance, and forgiveness. No need to worry about her path, she is watching. Shine.

D

[MikeP]

Thanks, DnJ again for being so supportive and providing some clarity. A couple of things- what I meant was that by acting the way I did this weekend and in prior convo's I hurt her. She cannot deal with conflict and gets extremely upset when I'm angry or the conversation is difficult. I am tired of hurting too, not enough to through in the towel though. I guess I got so upset because she just so casually brought something she did with him, like it was no big deal. I know that's no excuse and I did apologize for it. I probably didn't get that last part across correctly. I let her finish and we talked a little more at which point I said I didn't want to keep talking unless she had something else to say. It probably sounded like I cut her short and was rude, it wasn't like that. Am I wrong to not want her talking to men I don't know about our personal business, again? I know it's controlling but it's the exact scenario that led to the A. At work, another truck driver, I don't know him, and talking about our personal business. I'm aware she wouldn't tell about it if something was going on. She used to talk about the other guy as well, until the A started and then she didn't. Also, I'll say it for you- shut up and stop talking.

[MikeP]

I did message with a guy from school I haven't seen in 30+ years. We are meeting next Sunday to have dinner and catch up. Looking forward to it.

[LH19]

Am I wrong to not want her talking to men I don't know about our personal business, again? I know it's controlling but it's the exact scenario that led to the A.

You are not wrong Mikey P but right now is not the time to be applying any pressure. If she is going to cheat she is going to cheat. You are going to eventually need to deal with the affair and heal from it down the road if you want a marriage 2.0.

[MikeP]

Am I wrong to not want her talking to men I don't know about our personal business, again? I know it's controlling but it's the exact scenario that led to the A.

You are not wrong Mikey P but right now is not the time to be applying any pressure. If she is going to cheat she is going to cheat. You are going to eventually need to deal with the affair and heal from it down the road if you want a marriage 2.0.

I don't know that she will ever be willing to deal with it. Maybe if she seriously choses to stay together and start 2.0. I know that right now she's dealing with the sh!t in her head and isn't in a place to deal with it. Time will tell.

[LH19]

Don’t borrow tomorrows trouble today. One day at a time.

[DnJ]

Hello Mike

Am I wrong to not want her talking to men I don't know about our personal business, again?

Short answer: Yes

Moderately longer answer: Yes and no.

Let’s explore this:

First off, be accurate with what you are asking yourself. Your mind is listening.

“Am I wrong to not want her talking to men…”. Your wants are not wrong. You are free to want whatever you like. Action and words are what’s truly accountable.

By the way, it’s clearer - Am I wrong to not want her not talking to men…”. That is what you “not” want. I’m not being the grammar police here, it’s just muddying up the waters keeps your mind tangled for longer is all.

Now the real crux of this, remove your wants.

Is it wrong for her to talk to men I don’t know.

No.

She is free to talk whomever she wishes to. You do not get veto power. Nor control over that.

I know it's controlling but it's the exact scenario that led to the A.

Usually everything after “but” is one justifying what they already know is not the right path.

“I know it’s controlling but it's the exact scenario that led to the A.”

At work, another truck driver, I don't know him, and talking about our personal business.

Another truck driver. Similar behaviours. Doesn’t automatically mean similar results. You are being triggered to expect similar results.

She may stray, she may not. Nothing has changed from any other day. Knowing or not knowing she is speaking with men doesn’t really alter anything.

Personal business. It would be nice if she wasn’t blabbing about that. Again, cannot control what she does. If an opportunity arises you could ask her to use more discretion and not discuss your married life. That is much better than asking her to quit her job.

Regaining trust after its broken like in betrayal is a difficult road. So many questions and worries and doubts floating about. Look away from that, and deal with what is before you.

She needs to demonstrate trustworthiness to reestablish trust. That requires giving her the benefit of the doubt, to do that. You, the betrayed, have to extend the olive branch. And keep you heart soft and squishy, and focus on you, and GAL, and so on. I get it. You’re hurt and healing, and it’s unfair to be saddled with the lion’s share of this.

She, on her own accord, needs to walk away from the forbidden fruit. The more she’s told no, the more she’ll desire it.

Also, I'll say it for you- shut up and stop talking.

Lol.

You do not want to add pressure to her already addled mind.

Keep the questions for later. There will be a time for them. Interestingly, the burning questions you presently have, those answers you so are seeking - in time become less important. In fact, lots of this becomes just a blip on one’s radar. Eventually. The review mirror is small and the windshield is big. Where would you like to look most often?

Answers will present themselves when you are calm. And many of those meaningful answers are for questions you don’t even realize you have and are asking. A bit of a spoiler: The answers are more about you than her.

D

[Traveler]

Hi Mike,

Hopefully, in the light of a new day, you can see what happened logically. If you want a divorce on good terms, venting at her isn't the way to do it. If you want to reconcile, venting at her isn't the way to do it. Step off the autopilot path to a bitter divorce. It may have felt good in the moment to "let her have it", but this path will damage you in the long run.

Sitting in a gym full of people I know, we know, with another man. How could you humiliate me like that, etc.

Your wife's goal wasn't to humiliate you, for the little that's worth.

Take some perspective. How important are you to those people if nobody told you what was going on, if your wife wasn't too worried about any of them telling you what was going on? Sometimes we focus too much on the approval of random "others". I'm hosting a party on Christmas. It's the first time in my life I will have no family or partner on Christmas and I refuse to mope. Some who hear about it and on this forum will laugh. They are irrelevant. You know who matters? You, and your chosen family and friends. I'm sharing this because my admission might help you with that. (I do dabble in politics, so there are some exceptions in that realm, but it's amazing how quickly a scandal that is everything one season is completely forgotten about the next season.)

I asked which of her friends were working out with her, she said neither of them were going. So I asked who she was going to work out with, one of the guys that are always there? She said maybe, why does it matter? Asked what I was accusing her of? Anyway, I told her I have a problem with her once again have relationships with guys at work that are of a personal nature and I have a problem with her working out with guys I don't know. I didn't get angry at first, I just tried to explain how I felt and why I thought it was wrong. She became defensive and angry so I responded with anger as well.

She doesn't know if she wants to keep trying or maybe separate. I'm against separating and told her as much but also acknowledged it's not my decision. Came home and she was very upset, crying saying she doesn't know how to move forward.

You control whether you create a hostile environment for her with controlling and angry behavior--driving her to want to be anywhere but nearby--or learn to manage your own emotions.

I told her that I didn't want to talk anymore unless she had something left to say

You could stop talking, by stopping talking. This sounds like an attempt to persuade her to stop talking.

I told her to just go and be happy, find whatever she's looking for. This went on for awhile with her telling me she doesn't want to leave, she just doesn't know what she wants.

Mike, this was not the worst possible outcome. If I were to propose your top priorities for today: (1) Get some rest, (2) Don't talk again until you're rested although listening and validating is great, (3) arrange to see a therapist this week to vent and learn emotional management. It sounds like going for exercise is helping but not enough for what you're going through.

[Ready2Change]

Terrible weekend, all my fault. Lots of anger has been building up and unfortunately, I let some of it out Saturday.

You can't keep stuffing it down, but when and how you release it is in your control. It is important that you find a safe place to let out all your emotions. With your W is not safe RIGHT NOW. One of her needs is you being the calm one.

Go to the gym and pump out all your anger. Sit in your car in a parking lot and let out all your tears. Yell and scream in your car if needed. Crank the radio as you drive and feel all the emotions of the songs that come on.

When you are with W, calm and content. Do not think, just be present in the moment. Small talk is OK. No Big Talk. Treat this as a new relationship. You are dealing with a damaged human. We are all damaged humans. She is the same person she always was, you just see her different now. Do not let this cloud how you treat her.

[Traveler]

Short answer: Yes

Moderately longer answer: Yes and no.

Let’s explore this:

First off, be accurate with what you are asking yourself. Your mind is listening.

“Am I wrong to not want her talking to men…”. Your wants are not wrong. You are free to want whatever you like. Action and words are what’s truly accountable.

By the way, it’s clearer - Am I wrong to not want her not talking to men…”. That is what you “not” want. I’m not being the grammar police here, it’s just muddying up the waters keeps your mind tangled for longer is all.

Now the real crux of this, remove your wants.

Is it wrong for her to talk to men I don’t know.

No.

She is free to talk whomever she wishes to. You do not get veto power. Nor control over that.

^^ Study the above.

[Ready2Change]

PS: All your needs from her are to be ON HOLD at this part of the process.

[MikeP]

A lot of good advice, thanks everyone. It absolutely did not feel good to "let her have it". One of those moments where it just comes out, nothing good about it at all. I don't expect her to stop talking to other men, I just don't like the similarities in the men or talking about our personal stuff. I've never been a jealous person before this, I don't particularly care for it. I asked and didn't get the answer I wanted concerning the other men, that's what I like about the forum. Sometimes I need to told I'm wrong and I welcome it. Thanks again.

[Ready2Change]

I have read, currently rereading, divorce remedy and divorce busting.

What are the next books you plan on reading?

[SteveLW]

A lot of good advice, thanks everyone. It absolutely did not feel good to "let her have it". One of those moments where it just comes out, nothing good about it at all. I don't expect her to stop talking to other men, I just don't like the similarities in the men or talking about our personal stuff. I've never been a jealous person before this, I don't particularly care for it. I asked and didn't get the answer I wanted concerning the other men, that's what I like about the forum. Sometimes I need to told I'm wrong and I welcome it. Thanks again.

Mike, DBing is about self control. Letting someone have it and that it just came out means you have a 180 opportunity. A goal should be that you never do anything that you don't make a conscious decision to do. You cannot DB without being in total control. DBing is counter-intuitive, and therefore just letting yourself do something probably will not be something you should do.

Now that's all easier said than done. Which is why you strive to do the best you can, and understand you will slip up.

[BL42]

She is the same person she always was, you just see her different now.

Such a subtle yet profound little nugget of a sentence. Take some time to think about this concept.

[MikeP]

She is the same person she always was, you just see her different now.

Such a subtle yet profound little nugget of a sentence. Take some time to think about this concept.

I have a hard time with this. She seems like a totally different person. Not just towards me, but her outlook on life and how she treats other people now. Probably she is very depressed and that is why. Sometimes I wonder who she is. She even looks different at times, or maybe I'm crazy.

[MikeP]

I have read, currently rereading, divorce remedy and divorce busting.

What are the next books you plan on reading?

Not sure yet. Looking at the list. I've been meaning to stop by the bookstore just to see what they might have. I know, bookstores are so 1990's. I still like going there and just spending time browsing.

[MikeP]

Yesterday was such an improvement over the previous two. I didn't think about her at work with the OM once. I was dead tired but kind of energetic. Came home from work and straightened up, washed a few dishes. Wife got home and we sat on the sofa together about 30 minutes watching tv and then I got up first, even thought I could have sat there all night with her. Told her I was taking the dog out to play in the yard awhile if she wanted to get some rest. She was very visibly tired from our late night. Later I made dinner for her and d13. I actually made her laugh a few times, she doesn't laugh much anymore. Just a very light mood, the way it should be. She went to bed early and I sat up until s17 got home from work. Taking d13 to finish her getting her braces, then going to the gym and for a run. D13 has a bball scrimmage tonight, looking forward to that. She's a tiny little thing but as an 8th grader she is playing freshman and JV ball for the high school team. I used to only care about softball, probably because I coach, but I'm really into basketball now. One day at a time, right?

[SteveLW]

Mike, you know you cannot nice her back, right? Last night may seem like a step forward, but is doing the dishes and cooking her dinner what a man that commands respect does?

Tonight, do not do any housework. When bball scrimmage is over, take your D13 to dinner. Let your walk away wife fend for herself.

Remember, she is firing you as her husband, stop trying to be the perfect husband. Let her see what her like without you will be like.

[MikeP]

Mike, you know you cannot nice her back, right? Last night may seem like a step forward, but is doing the dishes and cooking her dinner what a man that commands respect does?

Tonight, do not do any housework. When bball scrimmage is over, take your D13 to dinner. Let your walk away wife fend for herself.

Remember, she is firing you as her husband, stop trying to be the perfect husband. Let her see what her like without you will be like.

Wasn’t trying to nice her back. I’ve always done the majority of the cooking. Not helping around the house was always a point of contention before so I have tried to do a better job of it since this all started. I think you are confused about our situation. She is living with us, we will all go the scrimmage together. She left and came back, saying she wants to fix things. She hasn’t done much and isn’t sure what she wants. NC with the OM as far as I know. I’m just trying to do the things I should have all along. Thanks

[DnJ]

Good Morning Mike

She is the same person she always was, you just see her different now.

Such a subtle yet profound little nugget of a sentence. Take some time to think about this concept.

I have a hard time with this. She seems like a totally different person. Not just towards me, but her outlook on life and how she treats other people now. Probably she is very depressed and that is why. Sometimes I wonder who she is. She even looks different at times, or maybe I'm crazy.

No, you’re not crazy.

As mentioned a while ago, your W shows signs of an internal struggle. Depression is always present with such internal turmoil.

A mid life transition is a normal stage for everyone. We all reconcile getting old, the things will failed to accomplish, our regrets, and such. We then see our life’s work, the stuff we did accomplish, and all the benefit of a life well lived.

A person enters a crisis during this time if they have significant unresolved issues. They get bogged down and lost in the regret and getting old stage of the transition. Usually some childhood trauma from an authority figure. Something from long ago. Something completely unrealized by them.

This pain and trauma was buried when they were a child due to they did not have the emotional / mental capacity to face or process such an event. Unfortunately, things buried alive will haunt later.

At mid life, these past events come back with a vengeance. They will no longer be denied. Of course, the person experiencing such torment has no idea why. They literally do not know what and why they feel like they do. That is the start of a mid life crisis.

This decent lasts about 18-24 months, as they try to maintain their life. Eventually, things can no longer be bottled up and they explode. Bomb drop. Their spouse usually gets blamed, since this broken person cannot accept or understand what they are feeling. It must be the spouse’s fault. It has to be. (From the hurting crisis person’s perspective.) They truly cannot accept things; their broken psyche cannot take it. They absolutely must blame others, and are driven to some wild behaviour.

My W had a full blown, off the deep end, mid life crisis. She blew up everything. Once they reach bomb drop, they run. Hard and fast. Affairs are staggeringly commonplace for these lost souls. They equate sex with happiness.

They feel unhappy. All the time. Running takes their mind off it. Spending, drinking, illicit drugs, are some other common running behaviours. These are people desperate to find peace. And desperate people do desperate things. There are many accounts of people burning through a lifetime of savings searching for their illusive happiness. My W took up exercising and weight loss. She was by no means over weight, not at all. However, she still peeled off around 40-50 pounds and became crazy thin. Basically a skeleton. She’s 5’10” and 100-ish pounds. And sunshine, she absolutely needs sunshine. Like ten hours a day. A cloudy rain day, in her words feels like death.

They become completely different! Completely! 180 degree from the person you once knew. How they dress, treat others, see the world, their values, their family, they toss life long friends, find new friends (that understand them), and so on. They try anything and everything to dull their ceaseless torment.

My W looked different. Her face was grayish. Her eyes became shark-like, life-less. A crisis person’s mannerisms change. They even sound different. These are people dragged back to their moment(s) of long ago torment. A time and event that stunted their emotional growth, and one from which they now need to grow up from.

My W even displayed, remembered, spoke, like she was that old. They actually become that “age” again. One of her “ages” is from when her and I first started dating. During one of the kids visits, W brought up details of D’s 1977 Ford LTD 2 with zebra stripped seats, like it was yesterday. Because, for her it is/was. The kids saw their pod person Mom, reliving 30 years ago. I was not husband, I was boyfriend. She wasn’t married, she didn’t have kids, and so on. All while living with OM. The fragility of the mind is incredible.

When a person in crisis drops the bomb, those around them are usually quite unaware. Me and the kids spent weeks searching the internet looking to understand what the heck just happened to Mom. Brain tumour, stroke, infection, etc. To us she flipped a switch and became possessed by an alien. A loving wonderful mother of four, threw her kids away, burnt down her thriving childcare business, and ran off with the egg man.

A person in crisis, they are not the same person you always knew. Yet, the LBS sees them the same.

A crisis is rare. Unfortunately not that rare. Diagnosis really doesn’t change much for your path. The time lines become exceeding longer. And a crisis’ prognosis is much hazier.

One the hallmarks of a crisis is confusion. The MLCer will exhibit confusion. They have the memory of gnat at most times, and usually become terrible parents.

Like I said, your W is going through something. I hope and pray it’s a transition and she finds her way. A crisis is a horrible fate. A fate for which the seeds were planted long ago.

Either path requires time and space for her to process. Time and space she will take if not given.

From you initial post:

We have been married 25 years, together 33. We have 3 kids- D23, S17, & D13. They don't know about the other man. I feel as if I'm doing all the work, letting her off the hook for everything, and she won't help me get over it. She says she loves me and wants it to work. She hates conflict, hates talking about anything involving her emotions, and seems like a stranger at times.

Mike, I suspect her emotions are cranked to eleven, and she absolutely cannot handle anyone else’s feelings right now. It’s pretty common for one to hate talking about their feelings while being dragged about, for they really do not understand what’s happening.

Do not offer any diagnosis to her. She will rebel against it, and hate you for it. Keep pressure to zero. Your goal is to outlast this.

Nothing you do will matter, and everything you do will.

Be a man only a fool would leave.

D

[SteveLW]

Mike, we see a lot of these situations. Likely she is back because OM ended, not her. In other words you are plan B. She is not doing much to work on things because she is looking for her next plan A. It is all part of the WW playbook. You said she is depressed. She's likely going through withdrawals from OM. I know that stings to hear but it happened in my situation too.

If you're marriage was on solid ground and you started helping around the house then that would likely score points. Now it just makes you look desperate. Some would even say weak. For me, at a minimum, it isn't worthy of respect. And when it comes to WAWs/WWs commanding respect is the only way to become attractive to her again. And if you don't believe me then ask yourself how much OM was helping around the house during her PA? The answer is zero. You cannot do the dishes to a reconciliation.

Do what you want. But doing what comes natural and intuitively likely will get you back into another situation like before. Trying to fix every one of her "points of contention" will not work. Many LBSs have tried that approach only to end up D'd.

I'll shut up now. Others have your back here and I seemed to have upset you with my previous response. Everything I said there still applies. I did read your OP and many of the ones in between. I would just hate to see you become a Stepford husband when that has little chance of working.

[Ready2Change]

I know, bookstores are so 1990's. I still like going there and just spending time browsing.

I would spend at least an hour a week browsing. One or two books would stand out.

[Ready2Change]

If you're marriage was on solid ground and you started helping around the house then that would likely score points. Now it just makes you look desperate. Some would even say weak. ....And if you don't believe me then ask yourself how much OM was helping around the house during her PA? The answer is zero.

This is a very insightful statement. Really contemplate this.

Accentuate the differences between the sexes. Do the manly things around the house and leave the womanly things for her.

[LH19]

Do the manly things around the house and leave the womanly things for her.

What exactly would be the womanly things R2C?

[MikeP]

Mike, we see a lot of these situations. Likely she is back because OM ended, not her. In other words you are plan B. She is not doing much to work on things because she is looking for her next plan A. It is all part of the WW playbook. You said she is depressed. She's likely going through withdrawals from OM. I know that stings to hear but it happened in my situation too.

If you're marriage was on solid ground and you started helping around the house then that would likely score points. Now it just makes you look desperate. Some would even say weak. For me, at a minimum, it isn't worthy of respect. And when it comes to WAWs/WWs commanding respect is the only way to become attractive to her again. And if you don't believe me then ask yourself how much OM was helping around the house during her PA? The answer is zero. You cannot do the dishes to a reconciliation.

Do what you want. But doing what comes natural and intuitively likely will get you back into another situation like before. Trying to fix every one of her "points of contention" will not work. Many LBSs have tried that approach only to end up D'd.

I'll shut up now. Others have your back here and I seemed to have upset you with my previous response. Everything I said there still applies. I did read your OP and many of the ones in between. I would just hate to see you become a Stepford husband when that has little chance of working.

Steve, you did not upset me in the least. I appreciate your advice. I just disagree with some things you said. She came when I gave her an ultimatum-end it with him or I’ll start divorce proceedings, and I meant it. She came home the next day. She wasn’t happy about it, cried like she lost a family member. Seeing that effing hurt, I wanted to tell her to leave again. Honestly, I’m just doing what seems right. At first I absolutely was trying to nice her back, but it became apparent pretty quickly she didn’t care. I get what you’re saying, I do. I’m trying yo GAL as much as possible and stop worrying what she thinks about me. If she doesn’t want me, I’m trying to be the man someone else will want. Funny thing, the OM is a scrawny little dork with no style. She should be embarrassed.

[DnJ]

…the OM is a scrawny little dork with no style.

Oh my goodness! I almost shot iced tea out my nose. Lol.

Affairing down is a real thing.

[MikeP]

Do the manly things around the house and leave the womanly things for her.

What exactly would be the womanly things R2C?

I had that thought also. The one thing I defended myself on when she BD’d, was how much I contribute. I cook 95% of the time, help with dishes, all the yard work( we have a lot if yard😁), house maint., etc. I’ve always taken the kids everywhere they needed-dr, dentist, sports, etc. My job makes it easier for me to take off than her. I still change the oil in our cars at home, I don’t trust Jiffy Lube. So, maybe I should slack off some 🤷🏼‍♂️. I do get lazy in the winter, I admit that, I’m not that dang bad even then.

[MikeP]

Good Morning Mike

She is the same person she always was, you just see her different now.

Such a subtle yet profound little nugget of a sentence. Take some time to think about this concept.

I have a hard time with this. She seems like a totally different person. Not just towards me, but her outlook on life and how she treats other people now. Probably she is very depressed and that is why. Sometimes I wonder who she is. She even looks different at times, or maybe I'm crazy.

No, you’re not crazy.

As mentioned a while ago, your W shows signs of an internal struggle. Depression is always present with such internal turmoil.

A mid life transition is a normal stage for everyone. We all reconcile getting old, the things will failed to accomplish, our regrets, and such. We then see our life’s work, the stuff we did accomplish, and all the benefit of a life well lived.

A person enters a crisis during this time if they have significant unresolved issues. They get bogged down and lost in the regret and getting old stage of the transition. Usually some childhood trauma from an authority figure. Something from long ago. Something completely unrealized by them.

This pain and trauma was buried when they were a child due to they did not have the emotional / mental capacity to face or process such an event. Unfortunately, things buried alive will haunt later.

At mid life, these past events come back with a vengeance. They will no longer be denied. Of course, the person experiencing such torment has no idea why. They literally do not know what and why they feel like they do. That is the start of a mid life crisis.

This decent lasts about 18-24 months, as they try to maintain their life. Eventually, things can no longer be bottled up and they explode. Bomb drop. Their spouse usually gets blamed, since this broken person cannot accept or understand what they are feeling. It must be the spouse’s fault. It has to be. (From the hurting crisis person’s perspective.) They truly cannot accept things; their broken psyche cannot take it. They absolutely must blame others, and are driven to some wild behaviour.

My W had a full blown, off the deep end, mid life crisis. She blew up everything. Once they reach bomb drop, they run. Hard and fast. Affairs are staggeringly commonplace for these lost souls. They equate sex with happiness.

They feel unhappy. All the time. Running takes their mind off it. Spending, drinking, illicit drugs, are some other common running behaviours. These are people desperate to find peace. And desperate people do desperate things. There are many accounts of people burning through a lifetime of savings searching for their illusive happiness. My W took up exercising and weight loss. She was by no means over weight, not at all. However, she still peeled off around 40-50 pounds and became crazy thin. Basically a skeleton. She’s 5’10” and 100-ish pounds. And sunshine, she absolutely needs sunshine. Like ten hours a day. A cloudy rain day, in her words feels like death.

They become completely different! Completely! 180 degree from the person you once knew. How they dress, treat others, see the world, their values, their family, they toss life long friends, find new friends (that understand them), and so on. They try anything and everything to dull their ceaseless torment.

My W looked different. Her face was grayish. Her eyes became shark-like, life-less. A crisis person’s mannerisms change. They even sound different. These are people dragged back to their moment(s) of long ago torment. A time and event that stunted their emotional growth, and one from which they now need to grow up from.

My W even displayed, remembered, spoke, like she was that old. They actually become that “age” again. One of her “ages” is from when her and I first started dating. During one of the kids visits, W brought up details of D’s 1977 Ford LTD 2 with zebra stripped seats, like it was yesterday. Because, for her it is/was. The kids saw their pod person Mom, reliving 30 years ago. I was not husband, I was boyfriend. She wasn’t married, she didn’t have kids, and so on. All while living with OM. The fragility of the mind is incredible.

When a person in crisis drops the bomb, those around them are usually quite unaware. Me and the kids spent weeks searching the internet looking to understand what the heck just happened to Mom. Brain tumour, stroke, infection, etc. To us she flipped a switch and became possessed by an alien. A loving wonderful mother of four, threw her kids away, burnt down her thriving childcare business, and ran off with the egg man.

A person in crisis, they are not the same person you always knew. Yet, the LBS sees them the same.

A crisis is rare. Unfortunately not that rare. Diagnosis really doesn’t change much for your path. The time lines become exceeding longer. And a crisis’ prognosis is much hazier.

One the hallmarks of a crisis is confusion. The MLCer will exhibit confusion. They have the memory of gnat at most times, and usually become terrible parents.

Like I said, your W is going through something. I hope and pray it’s a transition and she finds her way. A crisis is a horrible fate. A fate for which the seeds were planted long ago.

Either path requires time and space for her to process. Time and space she will take if not given.

From you initial post:

We have been married 25 years, together 33. We have 3 kids- D23, S17, & D13. They don't know about the other man. I feel as if I'm doing all the work, letting her off the hook for everything, and she won't help me get over it. She says she loves me and wants it to work. She hates conflict, hates talking about anything involving her emotions, and seems like a stranger at times.

Mike, I suspect her emotions are cranked to eleven, and she absolutely cannot handle anyone else’s feelings right now. It’s pretty common for one to hate talking about their feelings while being dragged about, for they really do not understand what’s happening.

Do not offer any diagnosis to her. She will rebel against it, and hate you for it. Keep pressure to zero. Your goal is to outlast this.

Nothing you do will matter, and everything you do will.

Be a man only a fool would leave.

D

A lot of what you say about your wife sounds too familiar. Memory of a gnat for sure. Her face looks different at times and her eyes look like she’s lost or nobody’s home. She tossed her two best friends and became close with a recently divorced friend from her gym. Won’t talk to her mom at all. She us easily confused now as well. Some if these things have started to fade, so I guess that’s positive. I never talk about depression to her. I learned that the hard way. Thanks again for your advice and relating your story. As bad as I thought I had it, sounds like you went through way worse.

[LH19]

I’m trying yo GAL as much as possible and stop worrying what she thinks about me. If she doesn’t want me, I’m trying to be the man someone else will want.

Be the man Mikey P wants to be and the rest will work itself out.

[DW17]

A lot of what you say about your wife sounds too familiar. Memory of a gnat for sure. Her face looks different at times and her eyes look like she’s lost or nobody’s home. She tossed her two best friends and became close with a recently divorced friend from her gym. Won’t talk to her mom at all. She us easily confused now as well. Some if these things have started to fade, so I guess that’s positive. I never talk about depression to her. I learned that the hard way. Thanks again for your advice and relating your story. As bad as I thought I had it, sounds like you went through way worse.

Sounds a lot like my wife as well. And probably thousands of others. The faces are the weirdest part for me. She gets this angry devilish face when she's really upset or she has a blank stare similar to what you described that looks like the wheels just aren't spinning. Then she just goes downstairs for the night.

My wife also had a recently D'd friend that I think gave her the confidence to push for D. Her friend
was living it up on dating apps, different guy each night, basically making up for what she thought was the mistake of marrying her high school sweetheart. I'm not sure if she's any happier now, but I doubt her 3 kids are. Oh well. Hopefully it's comforting knowing you aren't the only one dealing with this type of thing. I was shocked at how many people are in the same boat. It's an epidemic!

the life

[MikeP]

I’m trying yo GAL as much as possible and stop worrying what she thinks about me. If she doesn’t want me, I’m trying to be the man someone else will want.

Be the man Mikey P wants to be and the rest will work itself out.

I like the sound of that! Thanks.

[Ready2Change]

What exactly would be the womanly things R2C?

This sounds like a baited question...lol

Lets say it snowed and the driveway needs to be shoveled. Either I can do all the shoveling and my lady can stay inside and makes some warm food or vacuum. Or we both can go out and shovel and we both can do indoor chores. I expect all the chores to get done and we should both be putting effort in to get them done.

For these guys, they have more important things to do than clean up the house.

[BL42]

…the OM is a scrawny little dork with no style.

Oh my goodness! I almost shot iced tea out my nose. Lol.

Affairing down is a real thing.

It really is. My family and I have been told by multiple people that my ExW's OM1 is a ugly, scumbag loser. In fact, one our long time mutual friends who works for the same employer told me right after BD that she would be shocked if that were the guy because she couldn't see it with him at all. Remember MikeP...it's not always about you or who's better (you vs. OM). Often times it's about the WS running away from what they know because they're not happy (whether you're the cause or not, probably not). Also...there's an aspect of when they're with a person who is not as good they get more praise and validation from that person and feel better about themselves by comparison.

The one thing I defended myself on when she BD’d, was how much I contribute. I cook 95% of the time, help with dishes, all the yard work( we have a lot if yard😁), house maint., etc. I’ve always taken the kids everywhere they needed-dr, dentist, sports, etc. My job makes it easier for me to take off than her. I still change the oil in our cars at home, I don’t trust Jiffy Lube. So, maybe I should slack off some 🤷🏼‍♂️. I do get lazy in the winter, I admit that, I’m not that dang bad even then.

Your W didn't have an affair because you didn't help out enough around the house. I get the sense you're doing plenty. Absolutely do your fair share, but don't be a doormat either. Wait till she gets a taste of things without you around helping out...she might not like it too much.

My wife also had a recently D'd friend that I think gave her the confidence to push for D. Her friend was living it up on dating apps, different guy each night, basically making up for what she thought was the mistake of marrying her high school sweetheart. I'm not sure if she's any happier now, but I doubt her 3 kids are. Oh well. Hopefully it's comforting knowing you aren't the only one dealing with this type of thing. I was shocked at how many people are in the same boat. It's an epidemic!

She's probably enjoying the freedom...for now. Things may very well play out differently over time. And who cares about the kids, right? "Just be happy!" Sigh

Be the man Mikey P wants to be and the rest will work itself out.

^Indeed!

[Ready2Change]

Be the man Mikey P wants to be and the rest will work itself out.

So NOW you have a chance to do some self reflection.

Lets take the hair cut (Just for example). Do you have it cut the way she likes, or the way you like? Have you even thought about it? Maybe there is a different style that you would like. Maybe in the past, you ran the ideas past her. Now, you just make a decision based on what you want, and do it. No running it past her or thinking what she would think. Same with new clothing style, shoes, hobbies, the way your bedroom is decorated.

Too many guys let fear control them during this stage. Don't be like them.

[Kind18]

Too many guys let fear control them during this stage. Don't be like them.

Preach! Never has a truer word been spoken on this website!!!!!

That fear is driven by ingrained behaviours, reinforced over time.

Because conflict and fear with wife make you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, you avoid it at all costs. You have learned the quickest solution to relieve that fear - and inevitably that’s placating her, doing more dishes, telling her she looks amazing, cooking dinner, and being Mr super happy nice guy husband slave.

Ironically, being a doormat breaks your marriage and destroys your hopes of reconciliation - because while you see hope and happiness and return to normal in being Mr nice guy, she sees a weak, controllable, beta man who she is trying to get away from and who keeps hanging on and holding her back from her happiness with OM.

You need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Tell her one time to do her own dishes… she might not like it, she may shout/cry/argue/go berserk, and you will feel uncomfortable because there’s no peace.

But deep down, she’d actually respect you.

Women won’t stay with men long term that they don’t respect.

Anyway, enough about a cheat…. Well done on the GAL. How’s your exercise program going?

Have you set some personal goals?

How about gain 10 pounds muscle, or lose 10 pounds of fat, or learn to sing, join your local library… what about joining a hiking group, learn a new language….

The world’s your oyster Mike! Grab life by the horns. She can come along for the ride or not, but no point waiting to see what she decides.

[MikeP]

Too many guys let fear control them during this stage. Don't be like them.

Preach! Never has a truer word been spoken on this website!!!!!

That fear is driven by ingrained behaviours, reinforced over time.

Because conflict and fear with wife make you feel uncomfortable and vulnerable, you avoid it at all costs. You have learned the quickest solution to relieve that fear - and inevitably that’s placating her, doing more dishes, telling her she looks amazing, cooking dinner, and being Mr super happy nice guy husband slave.

Ironically, being a doormat breaks your marriage and destroys your hopes of reconciliation - because while you see hope and happiness and return to normal in being Mr nice guy, she sees a weak, controllable, beta man who she is trying to get away from and who keeps hanging on and holding her back from her happiness with OM.

You need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Tell her one time to do her own dishes… she might not like it, she may shout/cry/argue/go berserk, and you will feel uncomfortable because there’s no peace.

But deep down, she’d actually respect you.

Women won’t stay with men long term that they don’t respect.

Anyway, enough about a cheat…. Well done on the GAL. How’s your exercise program going?

Have you set some personal goals?

How about gain 10 pounds muscle, or lose 10 pounds of fat, or learn to sing, join your local library… what about joining a hiking group, learn a new language….

The world’s your oyster Mike! Grab life by the horns. She can come along for the ride or not, but no point waiting to see what she decides.

Running is going well. Was feeling a bit run down so I took a couple days off. Had a hard run today, a lot of hills. Wanting to drop about 20lbs and keep it off this time. I lost roughly 35 over the winter and spring, gained 20 back. Lifting to just maintain muscle for now. I’ve always had the haircut I like and bought the clothes I like. I’ve recently been buying some new clothes and shoes. I definitely wouldn’t say I’ve never been a beta male, until recently I suppose. I’m going to hang my heavy bag and speed bag up and start doing some boxing work outs again. Seems like a good time to punch things and get rid of some some anger.

[BL42]

I’m going to hang my heavy bag and speed bag up and start doing some boxing work outs again. Seems like a good time to punch things and get rid of some some anger.

Indeed!

[MikeP]

Something I haven't really posted about is the fact that I will be retiring soon. My original plan was 6/1, now it might be 1/1. This has been the milestone I've been trying to reach for 27 years at this job and now it doesn't really excite me like it did. The plan was to immediately go to work somewhere else for 5-10 years and really enjoy life, finally. I can just about double my current income and afford to do the things we never could. Now there might not be a "we". Yes, I know I can still do the things I planned. It just [censored]. I want to travel, get a boat, and generally live it up. It's hard to imagine not having her by my side after all these years to share this stage of life with. It's easy to think that I can move on without her since she will be the one choosing to leave, but it doesn't matter. It will suck and there's no two ways about it. I also know that I could eventually find someone else to share this time with. That's not really something I care to think about right now. Would probably rather be alone at this stage in life. Not really looking for any answers, just feeling really down about it and needed to whine a little. It's nice to have a place to vent.

[LH19]

Something I haven't really posted about is the fact that I will be retiring soon.

Congratulations!

My original plan was 6/1, now it might be 1/1.

What's changed?

This has been the milestone I've been trying to reach for 27 years at this job and now it doesn't really excite me like it did.

I understand. It will excite you again. As our good friend DNJ likes to say "feeling are fleeting".

The plan was to immediately go to work somewhere else for 5-10 years and really enjoy life, finally.

Is this still the plan?

It's hard to imagine not having her by my side after all these years to share this stage of life with.

Yep. I felt the same way. No way could I possibly move on without her. never more WRONG!

It's easy to think that I can move on without her since she will be the one choosing to leave, but it doesn't matter.

Still [censored].

It will suck and there's no two ways about it.

Yep for awhile it will.

I also know that I could eventually find someone else to share this time with.

Absolutely! Someone who adores and appreciates you and wants to have sex all the time.

That's not really something I care to think about right now.

Understandably. Remember feelings are fleeting.

Would probably rather be alone at this stage in life.

Bet you 100 bucks that changes in time.

Not really looking for any answers, just feeling really down about it and needed to whine a little. It's nice to have a place to vent.

It's okay Mikey P. Just don't wallow for too long.

[MikeP]

Something I haven't really posted about is the fact that I will be retiring soon.

Congratulations!

My original plan was 6/1, now it might be 1/1.

What's changed?

This has been the milestone I've been trying to reach for 27 years at this job and now it doesn't really excite me like it did.

I understand. It will excite you again. As our good friend DNJ likes to say "feeling are fleeting".

The plan was to immediately go to work somewhere else for 5-10 years and really enjoy life, finally.

Is this still the plan?

It's hard to imagine not having her by my side after all these years to share this stage of life with.

Yep. I felt the same way. No way could I possibly move on without her. never more WRONG!

It's easy to think that I can move on without her since she will be the one choosing to leave, but it doesn't matter.

Still [censored].

It will suck and there's no two ways about it.

Yep for awhile it will.

I also know that I could eventually find someone else to share this time with.

Absolutely! Someone who adores and appreciates you and wants to have sex all the time.

That's not really something I care to think about right now.

Understandably. Remember feelings are fleeting.

Would probably rather be alone at this stage in life.

Bet you 100 bucks that changes in time.

Not really looking for any answers, just feeling really down about it and needed to whine a little. It's nice to have a place to vent.

It's okay Mikey P. Just don't wallow for too long.

What changed is the difference in my retirement check is negligible and I am ready to move on.
The plan is still the same, already have a line on a good job.
I'm sure if we don't work it out, I will want to meet someone new. Hard to imagine right now.
Thanks LH, I won't wallow for long. Needed to get it out. I'm trying to stay positive and hope for the best. Also trying to mentally prepare for the worst.

[bttrfly]

It's really difficult to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be when someone's just blown it to smithereens.

However, there's another way to look at this: you now have what Jack3Beans used to call the gift of time. I say if you can, retire on 1/1 ... and take this precious gift (that we all know you never asked for) and use it to figure out who you are now. You know who you were before your marriage and during your marriage. Give yourself the opportunity to discover who you are now. This process will change you. Take time to process those changes. Really think about what your core values are now, and what is most important to you. Taking the time to do this will help you figure out what you really want in your life as you move forward either with or without your wife.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[MikeP]

It's really difficult to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be when someone's just blown it to smithereens.

However, there's another way to look at this: you now have what Jack3Beans used to call the gift of time. I say if you can, retire on 1/1 ... and take this precious gift (that we all know you never asked for) and use it to figure out who you are now. You know who you were before your marriage and during your marriage. Give yourself the opportunity to discover who you are now. This process will change you. Take time to process those changes. Really think about what your core values are now, and what is most important to you. Taking the time to do this will help you figure out what you really want in your life as you move forward either with or without your wife.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

[SteveLW]

Something I haven't really posted about is the fact that I will be retiring soon. My original plan was 6/1, now it might be 1/1. This has been the milestone I've been trying to reach for 27 years at this job and now it doesn't really excite me like it did. The plan was to immediately go to work somewhere else for 5-10 years and really enjoy life, finally. I can just about double my current income and afford to do the things we never could. Now there might not be a "we". Yes, I know I can still do the things I planned. It just [censored]. I want to travel, get a boat, and generally live it up. It's hard to imagine not having her by my side after all these years to share this stage of life with. It's easy to think that I can move on without her since she will be the one choosing to leave, but it doesn't matter. It will suck and there's no two ways about it. I also know that I could eventually find someone else to share this time with. That's not really something I care to think about right now. Would probably rather be alone at this stage in life. Not really looking for any answers, just feeling really down about it and needed to whine a little. It's nice to have a place to vent.

Mike the problem with this thinking is that we live in an imperfect world. Disease. Accidents. Acts of violence. Even natural disasters are all out of our control. So anyone in our lives could be taken from us at any moment. There is a big difference between missing someone and not being able to go on without them. Over attachment in an imperfect world is a not a good thing.

Are you in independent counseling? If not I would highly encourage it. The forum is nice, but a good counselor can really help you work through issues like this.

[MikeP]

Something I haven't really posted about is the fact that I will be retiring soon. My original plan was 6/1, now it might be 1/1. This has been the milestone I've been trying to reach for 27 years at this job and now it doesn't really excite me like it did. The plan was to immediately go to work somewhere else for 5-10 years and really enjoy life, finally. I can just about double my current income and afford to do the things we never could. Now there might not be a "we". Yes, I know I can still do the things I planned. It just [censored]. I want to travel, get a boat, and generally live it up. It's hard to imagine not having her by my side after all these years to share this stage of life with. It's easy to think that I can move on without her since she will be the one choosing to leave, but it doesn't matter. It will suck and there's no two ways about it. I also know that I could eventually find someone else to share this time with. That's not really something I care to think about right now. Would probably rather be alone at this stage in life. Not really looking for any answers, just feeling really down about it and needed to whine a little. It's nice to have a place to vent.

Mike the problem with this thinking is that we live in an imperfect world. Disease. Accidents. Acts of violence. Even natural disasters are all out of our control. So anyone in our lives could be taken from us at any moment. There is a big difference between missing someone and not being able to go on without them. Over attachment in an imperfect world is a not a good thing.

Are you in independent counseling? If not I would highly encourage it. The forum is nice, but a good counselor can really help you work through issues like this.

Yes, I have been seeing an IC. Infrequently. I definitely have an over attachment with my W. I won’t get into why I believe it happened, but I am aware. Of course being aware doesn’t mean squat without addressing it. Thanks for the input.

[MikeP]

Steve, I read your thread “How do you DB when you love your WAS”. Others have said some version of it, but it really hit home. I looked inside myself and admitted that I am absolutely still operating out of fear. I’m still in love with her, but I am more in love with the romanticized story of us. 33 years of life. We were kids when we met, it’s hard for me understand her feelings, only mine. I am not giving up on us but I realize that what you posted makes sense. She wants to be happy. It hurts so much to think someone else can make her happy. I will try to keep these things in mind moving forward. It hurts, but I won’t die. I will definitely stop with the nice guy stuff. I’m trying. That’s the best I can do.

[BL42]

MikeP,

I'd get some feedback from a L on the financial implications (support...etc.) of retiring and taking on a new job in light of a potential divorce situation before you make any decisions.

Yes, it's not the life you were planning but as the saying goes you have to play the best hand of the cards you were dealt. It doesn't have to suck. You can make an incredible life going forward with or without her.

I get the reflection on the potential loss. Trust me. But like LH says it's OK to be sad for a while but don't let it linger forever - the sooner you get strong and get out there and start enjoying life the better.

[MikeP]

MikeP,

I'd get some feedback from a L on the financial implications (support...etc.) of retiring and taking on a new job in light of a potential divorce situation before you make any decisions.

Yes, it's not the life you were planning but as the saying goes you have to play the best hand of the cards you were dealt. It doesn't have to suck. You can make an incredible life going forward with or without her.

I get the reflection on the potential loss. Trust me. But like LH says it's OK to be sad for a while but don't let it linger forever - the sooner you get strong and get out there and start enjoying life the

better.

Thanks BL. I’ve been concerned about the things you mention. I naively feel she won’t but vindictive, hut I also never imagined her cheating. What helps, I hope, is that she has a pension and 401k of her own. These concerns are making me rethink retiring now. How long do I wait is the problem. It’s not like there’s a timeline for our eventual outcome. Definitely need to contact an L though. Thanks for the reminder.

[Kind18]

Definitely consult a lawyer.

If it looks like she is imminently going to file, I’d retire. Go through the divorce and financial split while you are retired. She gets her money at that point based on you not earning any more. Perhaps won’t get alimony if you’ve retired.

Get the $$s split done so you lose as little as possible. Once it’s all squared away, then you can look at deciding to get a new job.

If you start a new job, well paid, and then she files - it could put you in a much worse financial position.

[bttrfly]

Mike, it's not about making her happy - that's never been your job; it's her job to make herself happy. For your own sake and sanity, don't own what isn't yours to own. You're in a tough enough place as it is without adding that.

[Ready2Change]

She wants to be happy. It hurts so much to think someone else can make her happy.

Someone else can't make her happy. Only she can make herself happy. Same with you. It is your job to find happy. Get yourself happy without "needing" her in your life. Do not put your happiness in someone else's hands.

Right now she is blaming her unhappiness on the one constant thing (besides herself) that has been in her life, YOU. That is why you do not want to increase any resentment, yours or hers.

This is why you let go of control. Project that you are happy (Calm and content) until you make it. Focus on every little thing that is good about your life. Wake up and take a deep breath and feel how good that feels. Get in the shower and feel how good the hot water feels. Enjoy the smell of your shampoo. All day long do this. Do not think during these experiences, just be.

[SteveLW]

Mike

Steve, I read your thread “How do you DB when you love your WAS”. Others have said some version of it, but it really hit home. I looked inside myself and admitted that I am absolutely still operating out of fear. I’m still in love with her, but I am more in love with the romanticized story of us. 33 years of life. We were kids when we met, it’s hard for me understand her feelings, only mine. I am not giving up on us but I realize that what you posted makes sense. She wants to be happy. It hurts so much to think someone else can make her happy. I will try to keep these things in mind moving forward. It hurts, but I won’t die. I will definitely stop with the nice guy stuff. I’m trying. That’s the best I can do.

Mike, please do not think my trying to put things into simple terms means I think this stuff is easy. I wish it were. All of us here have been through it to some level, and we all made lots of mistakes. And we've all come through it, no matter the outcome, for better or for worse. So we try to help newcomers to look at things differently so that they can start to maybe see the wisdom in DBing. When I first started DBingI was awful at it. Over days and weeks I got better. I think I still was only at 80-90% proficient in my best days!

So just keep working at it. The beauty of it is that it will help you get over your over attachment and your desire to please her at the expense of your own wants and desires. One day you will wake up and your mind and emotions won't be racing with thoughts of devastation if she decides to split. Its hard to think you will get there but keep working at GAL, 180ing and self improvements, and detachment, and you will get there!

You've got this Mike!

[MikeP]

Mike

Steve, I read your thread “How do you DB when you love your WAS”. Others have said some version of it, but it really hit home. I looked inside myself and admitted that I am absolutely still operating out of fear. I’m still in love with her, but I am more in love with the romanticized story of us. 33 years of life. We were kids when we met, it’s hard for me understand her feelings, only mine. I am not giving up on us but I realize that what you posted makes sense. She wants to be happy. It hurts so much to think someone else can make her happy. I will try to keep these things in mind moving forward. It hurts, but I won’t die. I will definitely stop with the nice guy stuff. I’m trying. That’s the best I can do.

Mike, please do not think my trying to put things into simple terms means I think this stuff is easy. I wish it were. All of us here have been through it to some level, and we all made lots of mistakes. And we've all come through it, no matter the outcome, for better or for worse. So we try to help newcomers to look at things differently so that they can start to maybe see the wisdom in DBing. When I first started DBingI was awful at it. Over days and weeks I got better. I think I still was only at 80-90% proficient in my best days!

So just keep working at it. The beauty of it is that it will help you get over your over attachment and your desire to please her at the expense of your own wants and desires. One day you will wake up and your mind and emotions won't be racing with thoughts of devastation if she decides to split. Its hard to think you will get there but keep working at GAL, 180ing and self improvements, and detachment, and you will get there!

You've got this Mike!

Thanks man, I appreciate your words of wisdom.

[MikeP]

bttrfly & Ready- I was referencing Steve’s thread where he mentions that she is just trying to be happy. I’m trying to sort out my thoughts about the A by realizing she didn’t set out to hurt me, she was looking for happiness. I’m not in anyway letting her off the hook, just trying to help myself. Thanks.

[BL42]

MikeP,

I naively feel she won’t but vindictive, hut I also never imagined her cheating.

Whether she's vindictive or not...the law is the law.

I remember telling my L that my now ExW said she wouldn't come after me financially (I had significant pre-marital assets) and he strongly responded: "Well she's not entitled to it anyway." And it struck me why was I all worried about how she would treat me? I should be empowered. But he was detached from the situation logical and whereas we LBSs are emotional and fearful.

Maybe you get lucky and she's eager to get out as quickly as possible and feels some guilt and you get a great "business deal" (it happens, ask DnJ). More likely you get something close to what the law lays out. Do not accept anything less than what the law calls for; jump quick at any deal favorable to you under the law. That's where the L comes in...best person to advise you what you're entitled to in your jurisdiction. Don't remember if you said where you're located, but there are main areas of consideration:

*Custody - N/A for D23 & S17. A few years for D13. Don't accept anything less than 50/50.
*Child Support - N/A for D23. Maybe S17, but some states are until 21. A few more years for D13. Often an online calculator for your state to run your income and your wife's income and estimate the obligation.
*Assets - Guessing based on married 25 years neither of you have significant pre-martial assets, but if you do some states are either Equitable or Equal Distribution of Assets. The former meaning generally you take premarital assets off the top before dividing in two, the latter just straight up divide in half.
*Spousal Support - Typically based on the length of marriage and disparity in income. You know both of those factors. Often times there's a straight up online calculator for length and amount of support. You should be able to find something by googling your state name and spousal support calculator.

What helps, I hope, is that she has a pension and 401k of her own.

Start gathering bank statements on EVERYTHING you can (credit cards, checking/savings accounts, retirement accounts...etc.). You should know how much you have in your 401k and how much she has in hers. Assuming neither had a significant amount 25 years ago before marriage it's a straightforward add up and divide by two. Unless she's willing to sign the farm away, which is possible, but probably unlikely...especially the longer it plays out.

Definitely need to contact an L though.

Definitely consult a lawyer.

Consulting one or more Ls is a no-brainer. Do at least one this week. The more of the above you have prepped the better - don't pay them $300/hr to do the prep work you can do.

These concerns are making me rethink retiring now.

If it looks like she is imminently going to file, I’d retire. Go through the divorce and financial split while you are retired. She gets her money at that point based on you not earning any more. Perhaps won’t get alimony if you’ve retired.

Get the $$s split done so you lose as little as possible. Once it’s all squared away, then you can look at deciding to get a new job.

If you start a new job, well paid, and then she files - it could put you in a much worse financial position.

Kind18's advice seems VERY wise. Way better to base support off a retirement / little income than a nice new flashy job. Be smart. And don't feel bad about getting the best deal. SHE is the one who wants a divorce.

[MikeP]

Yesterday was great. I planned on running a 5k race for charity. Unfortunately I missed the registration deadline. W and kids knew I was planning on running the race. So I set my alarm for 6, went to the park and ran 5k. No big deal except it was 26 degrees and the old me would have stayed in the warm bed and justified it somehow. I have no doubt W thought there was no chance of me following through with my plan. I’ve been spending more time doing my own thing the last few days and it’s obvious she seems happier. I don’t mean that like I’m studying her every move, she’s just noticeably happier. I’m sure it’s the lack of pressure from me. Not making a big deal about it or reading anything into it, just noticed the change. After Thanksgiving dinner at my sisters house we came home and I told her I had plans with some friends. Told her and the kids goodbye, and went to a friends house to have a couple beers with some guys I haven’t seen in awhile. She is taking d13&d23 shopping today. She hinted around that I could go if I wanted. I said no thanks, I think I’ll go fishing and possibly shooting, have fun. S17 has to work, I wish he could go with me. Nothing earth shattering but I’m starting to get on track. I’m feeling better than I have in a long time, mentally and physically. I think stopping with the “nice guy” routine is helping me a lot, I feel more in control, if that makes sense. Wish I had done it sooner. Of course we all know I could be on here tomorrow posting all the things I did wrong today 😑 Let’s hope not. One day at a time!

[br4nd0n]

MikeP:

I haven't had much time to read anyone else's story/thread since I got here this week but you commented a few times in mine and said you were still in a limbo state so I was curious.

I just read both threads.

We are different age groups and much different scenarios with our W's but when you described your wife as someone who avoids any conflict no matter how small resonated with my wife.

I think back and there was probably so many times in our relationship where she might have been frustrated with something I did but didn't want to create any conflict or make a big deal about it. Then the of suppressing just led to more and more resentment.

The other thing that absolutely amazed me is how much great advice you have received on this forum. It is truly amazing.

[MikeP]

MikeP:

I haven't had much time to read anyone else's story/thread since I got here this week but you commented a few times in mine and said you were still in a limbo state so I was curious.

I just read both threads.

We are different age groups and much different scenarios with our W's but when you described your wife as someone who avoids any conflict no matter how small resonated with my wife.

I think back and there was probably so many times in our relationship where she might have been frustrated with something I did but didn't want to create any conflict or make a big deal about it. Then the of suppressing just led to more and more resentment.

The other thing that absolutely amazed me is how much great advice you have received on this forum. It is truly amazing.

Yeah, the conflict thing is tough. She will always back down if she thinks I’m angry or upset. She thinks I’m mad if I get even a little animated. I’m always aware of how I speak or approach her about anything. I grew getting yelled at and my butt kicked when I screwed up. She has probably never had a hand laid on her or really even yelled at. Her parents aren’t like that. Sometimes I think we wouldn’t be here if she would have just yelled at me occasionally 🤷🏼‍♂️.
I have definitely received lots great advice and support. I truly appreciate it.

[LH19]

Mikey P if you are going to play fantasy land that how about if you wouldn’t have done so many things for her to yell and scream at you then you wouldn’t be here?

How can you change that moving forward?

[MikeP]

Mikey P if you are going to play fantasy land that how about if you wouldn’t have done so many things for her to yell and scream at you then you wouldn’t be here?

How can you change that moving forward?

I’m not sure how that’s playing “fantasy land”? Maybe I should have said if she would have spoken up more. Better? Actually this entire phase of my life is fantasy land isn’t it? I believe I’ve been working on changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

[Ready2Change]

changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

You behave based on what is the right thing to do, not how will she react to my behavior.

[Ready2Change]

And there may be a better choice of words for the phrase "right thing to do" in different circumstances.

[DnJ]

Hello Mike

Don’t fret, you’re doing fine. It’s perfectly normal to consider and explore the what ifs of a relationship’s past. You are not living in fantasy land, you are considering and altering direction.

Lots of folks avoid conflict. It appears your W learnt to stuff down and ignore conflict; to back down. And given your upbringing I’d suspect you have a similar distaste for facing conflicts.

More open respectful communication is always a good thing. Communication is usually the biggest cause/problem in any relationship. Learning how to lead and facilitate difficult conversations is a most valuable life skill to acquire. Life has difficulties and conflicts will arise. Discussing those is needed.

Resolution of conflict comes not from sorting out who is right and who is wrong, it comes from seeing and hearing the other’s side. That takes empathy and leaving one’s ego out of things. When both participate towards that end, the solution is win/win. Not a compromise, that’s lose/lose. A win/win, a decision where both parties achieve their true desired outcome. And often, it’s rather surprising what solutions folks can come up with.

That outcome, the possibility that both can achieve their goal, usually eludes folks due to our us against them societal defaults. Folks are programmed - media, politics, and so on - that to win the other must lose. Such constant reinforcement is a yoke that drags the unaware, and conflicts brew and stagnate.

Conflict, difficult conversations, just some things to consider and perhaps look into during your journey forward.

D

[BL42]

So I set my alarm for 6, went to the park and ran 5k. No big deal except it was 26 degrees and the old me would have stayed in the warm bed and justified it somehow.

Told her and the kids goodbye, and went to a friends house to have a couple beers with some guys I haven’t seen in awhile.

She is taking d13&d23 shopping today. She hinted around that I could go if I wanted. I said no thanks, I think I’ll go fishing and possibly shooting, have fun.

Good stuff MikeP! A 5k, beer w/old friends, and some fishing & shooting. All great GAL...and space for W! Keep it up.

[LH19]

Mikey P if you are going to play fantasy land that how about if you wouldn’t have done so many things for her to yell and scream at you then you wouldn’t be here?

How can you change that moving forward?

I’m not sure how that’s playing “fantasy land”? Maybe I should have said if she would have spoken up more. Better? Actually this entire phase of my life is fantasy land isn’t it? I believe I’ve been working on changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

Mikey P my point was wishing she spoke up is a fantasy because it didn’t happen. Wanting her to commit to the marriage now is a fantasy. Control what you can control like working out, setting goals, starting new hobbies and reading books on attraction.

[Ready2Change]

Mikey P my point was wishing she spoke up is a fantasy because it didn’t happen.

We all have all kinds of wishes of how we wish other people behave. I am sure your W has just as many wishes. That is why you reflect on her list and make choices if they are something that you would like to do long term (Forever). You have control of your behavior, not hers.

[SteveLW]

changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

You behave based on what is the right thing to do, not how will she react to my behavior.

THIS!!!!

And "right thing to do" is perfect wording.

[MikeP]

changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

You behave based on what is the right thing to do, not how will she react to my behavior.

THIS!!!!

And "right thing to do" is perfect wording.

Until recently I was absolutely trying to nice her back. I understand what I was doing. I am working on doing what is the right thing to do now. I do my fair share now, in my opinion, and I don't worry what she thinks about it. Prime example. I made a dish for Thanksgiving to take to my sisters house. Made a mess, cleaned up. W and d13 made cookies and a dish. Made a mess and left it. Ordinarily I would have eventually gotten tired of looking at the mess and cleaned up. Nope, left it. W finally cleaned up. I know that's minor but I would have normally caved. Doing better at GAL also. Went to lunch yesterday with a guy I haven't seen in 30 plus years. Had a nice time.

[SteveLW]

changing that going forward but then I’m told to stop trying to nice her back. Which is it?

You behave based on what is the right thing to do, not how will she react to my behavior.

THIS!!!!

And "right thing to do" is perfect wording.

Until recently I was absolutely trying to nice her back. I understand what I was doing. I am working on doing what is the right thing to do now. I do my fair share now, in my opinion, and I don't worry what she thinks about it. Prime example. I made a dish for Thanksgiving to take to my sisters house. Made a mess, cleaned up. W and d13 made cookies and a dish. Made a mess and left it. Ordinarily I would have eventually gotten tired of looking at the mess and cleaned up. Nope, left it. W finally cleaned up. I know that's minor but I would have normally caved. Doing better at GAL also. Went to lunch yesterday with a guy I haven't seen in 30 plus years. Had a nice time.

Perfect!

I am a neat freak. So I struggle with this too. However, if it bugs me bad enough I will go ahead and clean up after her. Not because I am trying to be nice or because I am trying to score points with her, but simply because I am tired of looking at it!

[MikeP]

I've started watching a guy named Rich Cooper on Youtube. A lot of good stuff about not being a beta. I'm going to check out his book.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MikeP

I know that's minor…

Don’t discount minor; for the grandest journeys all started with a small/minor step. In fact, a journey is just a string of minor steps one after another.

One achieves their major outcomes by laying down a foundation one minor piece at a time, taking one small step at a time. The big moments, those paradigm shifts, the blessings; with each step one forges their willingness to see and accept them.

It’s finding one’s heading/direction that is crucial. And walking their path. No point scrambling off in some unknown direction. Walk towards something, rather than run from something. The journey is more important than the destination.

Life has headings/destinations/goals. Living is about the journey. One minor step at a time.

Have a great day.

D

[SteveLW]

Good Morning MikeP

I know that's minor…

Don’t discount minor; for the grandest journeys all started with a small/minor step. In fact, a journey is just a string of minor steps one after another.

One achieves their major outcomes by laying down a foundation one minor piece at a time, taking one small step at a time. The big moments, those paradigm shifts, the blessings; with each step one forges their willingness to see and accept them.

It’s finding one’s heading/direction that is crucial. And walking their path. No point scrambling off in some unknown direction. Walk towards something, rather than run from something. The journey is more important than the destination.

Life has headings/destinations/goals. Living is about the journey. One minor step at a time.

Have a great day.

D

Great post!

[Ready2Change]

I've started watching a guy named Rich Cooper ..

He is a good watch.. check out LFA as well...you should also get a good grasp of the differences between the Red/Blue/Black pill/ MGTOW/PUA and other manosphere ideas. Cherry pick out the good traits that you would like to incorporate into your new way of behaving. Be aware that there are a lot of bad traits that these "experts" have. Be very discerning.


You had a double posting. I have deleted the duplicate.

[Traveler]

Some sources recommended here have been misognystic. I have no knowledge of the above person yay or no, but I'd do a quick Google of <source> + misogyny and consider what men and women think. Misogyny is obviously repellent to women and many men, and its absence imho one of the reasons some of us have an easier time attracting the opposite sex. Choose your gurus wisely.

[LH19]

I've started watching a guy named Rich Cooper on Youtube. A lot of good stuff about not being a beta. I'm going to check out his book.

Mikey P I would be careful with his stuff. That would not go over well with your W right now.

[LH19]

Misogyny is obviously repellent to women and many men, and its absence imho one of the reasons some of us have an easier time attracting the opposite sex. Choose your gurus wisely.

Traveler it's been like 10 years since you walked out on your ex-wife and you had one girlfriend outside your girls group so yeah choosing your gurus is wise.

[Traveler]

You don’t “have to” follow me and make judgy comments or act like an arse to use your own words—you do you. Your antics have silenced and driven away quite a few posters.

For any newbies without my backstory, before I was left behind in the relationship that brought me to this site, I took my kids and left an XW who physically abused my son. I remained a primary custody dad for over a decade. I’m not just unapologetic, I’m proud I endured the hardships to do what was right by them and proud of who they are becoming as they enter adulthood.

Action towards LH: Report [X] Ignore []

[LH19]

Mikey P not confuse you he’s saying he reported to the board moderators. He doesn’t go by the creed “snitches get stitches”. Just think you should read people’s threads before you take advice from them.

I always recommend “how to be a 3% man by Corey Wayne. Teaches how to be attractive by taking the lead and being direct and decisive.

[DonH]

Traveler it's been like 10 years since you walked out on your ex-wife and you had one girlfriend outside your girls group so yeah choosing your gurus is wise.

Um, this ^^^^^^^^^^^^ this is worthy of a call to the mods? Seems akin to calling 911 to get those darn kids off your lawn. What at all is possibly wrong with giving this advice to ANYONE here about ANY of the posters? Scheese. I guess it goes with the rest of the left world where rather than debate the merits, they try to silence the poster. I vote we run this board like the new Twitter where everyone gets to speak their mind. As long as there is not name calling (there wasn’t) as long as there is no overt bullying (there wasn’t) as long as race, religion, sex, etc is not criticized (it was not), we should be able to express our viewpoints and offer our thoughts. Anyone is free to disagree by stating their case. The cops have better things to do.

As for the whole alpha thing, why is it usually the beta boys who take issue with being alpha? I don’t get it.

[Ready2Change]

Seems akin to calling 911 to get those darn kids off your lawn.

My dogs got off my property a few weeks back. The kid (20ish) that found them called 911 to find out what to do. Both dogs had my phone number and one had my address on their collars.

[MikeP]

I've started watching a guy named Rich Cooper on Youtube. A lot of good stuff about not being a beta. I'm going to check out his book.

Mikey P I would be careful with his stuff. That would not go over well with your W right now.

Yeah, the more I have watched I see what you’re saying. I also am following Christopher Canwell. He has a book out, Atomic Attraction. A lot of the same principles that are taught on here.

[LH19]

I've started watching a guy named Rich Cooper on Youtube. A lot of good stuff about not being a beta. I'm going to check out his book.

Mikey P I would be careful with his stuff. That would not go over well with your W right now.

Yeah, the more I have watched I see what you’re saying. I also am following Christopher Canwell. He has a book out, Atomic Attraction. A lot of the same principles that are taught on here.

His philosophy while accurate to a degree he does come off as an ahole sometimes. Your W would not be open to that right now.

[job]

Listen up!

Everyone has an opinion and as long as the opinion is not disrespectful, you are welcome to post. We have newbies, walkaways, MLCers and divorced posters posting on all of the forums at one time or another. There is nothing in the policies that state that they can't post. Each poster has the capability of taking from the postings what they can use and what they can't. We advised each of you of this when you first began your journey. No two pieces of advice will be the same and you have to figure out what works for each of you.

However, when the bullying and snarking start, then it's time to take a good, long, hard look at what you are posting to each other. One of the bullets in the Board policies states that we must be respectful of one another here. If you can't be respectful, then you have several choices 1) ignore the posting and move on to the next one; 2) take a chance on being put back on moderation and/or 3) being banned. I don't like to go straight to banning, but if the need arises, I will put in the request.

People, we are all adults here...act like it! If you don't like someone or don't have respect for the poster, then do not address the posting and in fact, don't read their thread. Your personal feelings about someone need to remain with you and not on this public forum. In other words, if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything.

Now, let's all get back to the business of helping each other and let's all be mindful that people from all over the world are reading your postings. Yes, that's right, people do not need to be members to read the postings. From this day forward, I want to see posters being mindful of what they are postings. Read your postings prior to hitting the submit button and ask yourself "is this the type of response that I would want to receive from someone".

I am more than happy to delete and/or clean up the postings of yesterday if you want me to.

[MikeP]

Over the last 6 days (roughly) I have been doing a much better job following the advice I've been given, especially GAL and giving her space. I can tell when she is around me that it's confusing to her. Best way I can explain it. She seems much more interested in me and what I'm doing or going to do. Last night I went to bed early, she even seemed confused about that. I'm usually kind of a night owl but I had a good work out and ran some intervals, so I was beat. At some point during the night we both woke up and she asked if something was wrong. Nope, everything is great. This morning she asked if I needed to tell her something. Nope, everything is great. She has initiated sex twice in this time frame, not like her at all. This change in dynamic is nice and now I really want to double down. I think detachment is slowly creeping in. I don't worry at all about what she's up to like I was, especially while she is at work with the Troll. My name for him, first time I've used it here. One morning last week I woke up and was lying in bed and it just hit me- she hasn't treated my right for 8 mos after admitting to an affair. She probably wants him still. I'm not going to waste any more time worrying wether she will choose me over him, she either will or won't and I will get on with my life. Don't get me wrong if she chooses to leave me, I will of course be sad. Probably more than I can imagine right now. I guess I'm accepting it and moving forward. Deep down I had already accepted that she would leave again, and it was hard to cope with. I still want to reconcile if we can, but I think I'm to the point of understanding I won't die if we don't. As always, thanks for all the advice and keeping me on track.

[bttrfly]

Mike, read Gordie's threads in MLC... if you haven't already ...
If you've found something that's working, keep doing that!

[MikeP]

Mike, read Gordie's threads in MLC... if you haven't already ...
If you've found something that's working, keep doing that!

On the surface at least, it appears so. I'm not reading too much into it, observing and moving forward.

[Ready2Change]

I can tell when she is around me that it's confusing to her. Best way I can explain it. She seems much more interested in me and what I'm doing or going to do.

You have taken your balls out of her purse and put them back where they belong. Keep them there.

Great response to her questions.

Keep your focus off of her as you do you. Just know she is watching.

[job]

Please start a new thread. Thanks!

[BL42]

MikeP,

Over the last 6 days (roughly) I have been doing a much better job following the advice I've been given, especially GAL and giving her space. I can tell when she is around me that it's confusing to her. Best way I can explain it. She seems much more interested in me and what I'm doing or going to do. Last night I went to bed early, she even seemed confused about that. I'm usually kind of a night owl but I had a good work out and ran some intervals, so I was beat. At some point during the night we both woke up and she asked if something was wrong. Nope, everything is great. This morning she asked if I needed to tell her something. Nope, everything is great. She has initiated sex twice in this time frame, not like her at all. This change in dynamic is nice and now I really want to double down. I think detachment is slowly creeping in. I don't worry at all about what she's up to like I was, especially while she is at work with the Troll. My name for him, first time I've used it here. One morning last week I woke up and was lying in bed and it just hit me- she hasn't treated my right for 8 mos after admitting to an affair. She probably wants him still. I'm not going to waste any more time worrying wether she will choose me over him, she either will or won't and I will get on with my life. Don't get me wrong if she chooses to leave me, I will of course be sad. Probably more than I can imagine right now. I guess I'm accepting it and moving forward. Deep down I had already accepted that she would leave again, and it was hard to cope with. I still want to reconcile if we can, but I think I'm to the point of understanding I won't die if we don't. As always, thanks for all the advice and keeping me on track.

Great post. Sounds like it's starting to click with you. I completely agree with doubling down. 6 days isn't much in the scheme of things. There will be ups and downs...make sure you commit for the long haul.

Great response to her questions.

Keep your focus off of her as you do you. Just know she is watching.

^Yep.

[MikeP]

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2939955&#Post2939955

New thread.