Stuck in limbo II

[Doug54]

Link to last thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2936152#Post2936152

[Doug54]

To update-

I was out of town Wednesday to late Saturday night, visiting an old college buddy. The timing seemed fortuitous, with the mood and vibe around the house feeling a little tense and distant following the ill-scheduled MC session and family trip. It was also good to get out and see a place I'd never been to before.

Fun as it was, going away had an unforeseen mental effect - I found myself waxing nostalgic about W half the time. I mean, my friend had to stop me from texting her "I miss you" on a couple instances. I didn't really get why I was brooding over a crappy situation that I should have been breathing a huge sigh of relief to get a respite from.

There was a small, naive hope (for lack of a better word) that the days apart would result in a more congenial W when I arrived home, but of course that hasn't been the case. It hasn't been torture, but she hasn't had any progress on the job front and I'm like "Are we going to be living out a dead marriage for a year?" One day at a time...one day at a time.

Oddly enough, it's helped to read some of the accounts on here, like LH19's foray into online dating (a bit aged at this point since the thread I'm on was pre-Covid) and realize this situation won't be forever. I guess getting back into town and resuming living through the crappiness serves a purpose.

[Doug54]

Gekko- thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions in that in-depth post! A lot to soak up and consider.

[Vapo]

To update-

Fun as it was, going away had an unforeseen mental effect - I found myself waxing nostalgic about W half the time. I mean, my friend had to stop me from texting her "I miss you" on a couple instances. I didn't really get why I was brooding over a crappy situation that I should have been breathing a huge sigh of relief to get a respite from.

It is a pretty common occurence. It is called the rose glasses effect. The LBS (left behind spouse) tends to over idealize the failed marriage and the cheating partner. It takes time to shatter these glasses and it is only then that the LBS becomes aware of the true nature of the spouse.

[LH19]

Oddly enough, it's helped to read some of the accounts on here, like LH19's foray into online dating (a bit aged at this point since the thread I'm on was pre-Covid) and realize this situation won't be forever. I guess getting back into town and resuming living through the crappiness serves a purpose.

Doug I am glad my Misadventures helps lol. Yep it won't last forever and you will be happy again. You will be mad that you tolerated the BS as long as you did. After all how dare you watch TV alone in the other room? Your W is on a journey of her own that is going to take a really long time to play out. So many people suffer for so long on this board because they are in love with a fantasy. You are going to be just fine.

[Doug54]

Would appreciate some advice here if possible. Was sucked into a relationship talk a short while ago. W is really amped up about this next MC appointment that I planned to skip, to focus on IC. I politely explained that this was the path I wished to take, but she cornered me to say that I was being arrogant in not going. She furthered that with a statement about wanting out and this counselor helped with that process.

I was mostly successful with a 180 of not returning fire and validated her feelings, but it kept turning to me "having options" (family nearby to move in with) and that I didn't get to keep her in this marriage. I gestured toward the door and said I wasn't stopping her, but I didn't want the breakup of the family on my conscience.

That was followed with talk of her having to get a lawyer and how this process would be "more expensive than it has to be" - not sure if this meant a separation or officially filing, which is a little purposeless in my state if you're not separated yet. I said I understood that she felt frustrated but that I didn't plan to leave my own house.

She does not have the means to move out and her family is hours away. The kids will be starting school soon, which has always been a two-parent process in our household (mom= morning; dad = afternoon). I'm just not sure how tense it may get around here. I know I shouldn't surmise her thought process or inclinations, but I almost wonder if just going to the MC session would calm the waters for now. Not to act in a co-dependent way, but I'd prefer the kids not be subject to further arguing.

[BL42]

I politely explained that this was the path I wished to take

Good.

but she cornered me to say that I was being arrogant in not going.

She clearly has resentment. Just stay calm and firm.

She furthered that with a statement about wanting out and this counselor helped with that process.

You don't need a counselor to get divorced.

I was mostly successful with a 180 of not returning fire and validated her feelings

Good!

but it kept turning to me "having options" (family nearby to move in with)

That's her problem. Seriously. She wants to divorce you. Just because you have family nearby doesn't mean she gets special treatment. Stand up for yourself and your rights, regardless of whose family lives closer. Do not move out.

and that I didn't get to keep her in this marriage.

She's right. That's her decision.

I gestured toward the door and said I wasn't stopping her, but I didn't want the breakup of the family on my conscience.

So the first part of this is good...if you didn't do it with any attitude. The second part is a little pressure/blaming. Maybe an "That's not what I want, but I won't stop you." But overall much better than most LBSs/newbies.

That was followed with talk of her having to get a lawyer and how this process would be "more expensive than it has to be" - not sure if this meant a separation or officially filing, which is a little purposeless in my state if you're not separated yet.

Most of these stiches end up involving lawyers. Things just escalate. I don't have any official stats, but seems like most aren't just handled easily between the two parties.

I said I understood that she felt frustrated but that I didn't plan to leave my own house.

Perfect!!! Well done.

She does not have the means to move out and her family is hours away. The kids will be starting school soon, which has always been a two-parent process in our household (mom= morning; dad = afternoon).

Again, her problem. She wants to divorce you. Part of that is her moving out, handling the financial impacts, handling the logistics of kids school and activities. All she sees is the happiness of running through the field free and careless to the world. At some point realities are going to kick in for her - don't protect her from those realities. She'll have to deal with them.

I'm just not sure how tense it may get around here.

It might get a lot more tense. Are you strong enough to rise above, keep your head up, and go about enjoying your life?

I know I shouldn't surmise her thought process or inclinations, but I almost wonder if just going to the MC session would calm the waters for now. Not to act in a co-dependent way, but I'd prefer the kids not be subject to further arguing.

Plenty of us have recommended against MC unless she's fully bought into working on the marriage, but ultimately you're going to have to choose what to do.

Doug54 - I think you're doing real relative to most LBSs. Hang in there and stay strong.

[LH19]

This really fuching angers me when someone wants out and is not willing to leave. I like to use the Braveheart analogy here "hold, hold, hold". It's going to get tense here Doug there is no way around it. Are you going to keep the house?

[Vapo]

I agree with BL and LH. DO NOT move out. She will try pleading, threats and extortion on you. Do not budge, do not flinch. It would be perfect if you managed to stay cool and calm and say to her:"You want out? There is the door. This is my house and my home and I am not moving."

Be prepared to possibly be subjected to extortion, she might call the police and say you assaulted her. If you see indications that it might come to that, I would highly suggest to record the communications.

I know you will say I'm crazy and that would never happen and that your W is not like that, but the reality is she really at the moment is not the person you knew for all the years.

Several posters on these boards have had police called on them claiming spausal abuse has taken place. Be very careful you do not end up on the wrong end of a restraining order.

[Mach1]

Would appreciate some advice here if possible. Was sucked into a relationship talk a short while ago. W is really amped up about this next MC appointment that I planned to skip, to focus on IC. I politely explained that this was the path I wished to take, but she cornered me to say that I was being arrogant in not going. She furthered that with a statement about wanting out and this counselor helped with that process.

I was mostly successful with a 180 of not returning fire and validated her feelings, but it kept turning to me "having options" (family nearby to move in with) and that I didn't get to keep her in this marriage. I gestured toward the door and said I wasn't stopping her, but I didn't want the breakup of the family on my conscience.

Maybe ease off of the guilt with her.

It's okay to let her live her decisions by letting her know that you have no plans to move, yet maybe not point out to her about breaking up the family....

It just seems a little vindictive. No matter how true it might be.

IF there is hope of having anything in the future, her feeling judged will NOT point you toward that direction...

Seems pretty simple though....

I would like to pursue IC for now, when that changes, I will let you know...

That was followed with talk of her having to get a lawyer and how this process would be "more expensive than it has to be" - not sure if this meant a separation or officially filing, which is a little purposeless in my state if you're not separated yet. I said I understood that she felt frustrated but that I didn't plan to leave my own house.

For now, don't try and borrow trouble from the future.

You never know how this will play out, just focus on you for now....

Don't get sukced into any conversations that you aren't ready to have...

Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung...

And don't ask any questions that you really don't want answered....

She does not have the means to move out and her family is hours away. The kids will be starting school soon, which has always been a two-parent process in our household (mom= morning; dad = afternoon). I'm just not sure how tense it may get around here. I know I shouldn't surmise her thought process or inclinations, but I almost wonder if just going to the MC session would calm the waters for now. Not to act in a co-dependent way, but I'd prefer the kids not be subject to further arguing.

From what I've seen....things will more than likely get worse before they can get any better...

I've likened it to a Space Shuttle analogy...

When they would launch the Shuttle, they had these booster tanks attached to them because of the amount of fuel they consumed during lift off....

Once they ascended to the desired altitude and the fuel was used, the tanks would fall away....


Think of this right now, as that....

Her anger (the tanks) is her fuel to "push away" from you, the marriage, friends, family, and whoever doesn't support her decisions.

The harder it is to get off of the ground, the more fuel(anger) she will burn trying to lift off...

Things aren't great in her head right now either, and the anger allows her to paint you in an undesirable position.

There will be things that she says that will not be entirely true, yet to her, they are VERY true...

Thing is...

YOU get to choose what is true to you also...

And the difference??

The things that send that little 'sting" up the back of your neck ??

Those are the things that you typically don't like about yourself....

Those are the things that you dig deep inside of yourself to change...

D.....this didn't break in a day, and it won't be fixed in a day....

For now, just try and take care of yourself....

And remember that you will never talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.....

Set some goals for YOU....

Find something new that you have always wanted to do....

Maybe tell us something about you....

likes ?

Hobbies ?

Find a reason to smile....

[Traveler]

Hi Doug,

I only have time for a quick reply--but WONDERFUL JOB DB'ing when your W wanted an R talk. You set and held firm to boundaries controlling you. You validated her feelings. This is TheWay for either R or D'ing on the best terms. Small misstep (guilting/manipulation). I agree with BL42's reply.

[Doug54]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown, BL42! Glad to see I handled a few things correctly, and I appreciate your vote of confidence.

[Doug54]

This really fuching angers me when someone wants out and is not willing to leave. I like to use the Braveheart analogy here "hold, hold, hold". It's going to get tense here Doug there is no way around it. Are you going to keep the house?

That's the million dollar question, LH. If things happened today, I don't know if either of us could buy out the other's equity in the house. I'd be getting bled dry in child support. Funnily enough, back before I had read DR and held too many relationship talks, W said many times that "the kids need a house" and that she'd stay in a marriage she didn't want to if that's what it took. Hyperbole, to be sure, but she's definitely allergic to the thought of the house being sold as part of a divorce. I honestly think she believes I'd rather keep my full pension and just give her the house.
However, I'm sure I'd need my share of the house sale profit for down payment on another home for myself.

[Doug54]

I agree with BL and LH. DO NOT move out. She will try pleading, threats and extortion on you. Do not budge, do not flinch. It would be perfect if you managed to stay cool and calm and say to her:"You want out? There is the door. This is my house and my home and I am not moving."

Be prepared to possibly be subjected to extortion, she might call the police and say you assaulted her. If you see indications that it might come to that, I would highly suggest to record the communications.

I know you will say I'm crazy and that would never happen and that your W is not like that, but the reality is she really at the moment is not the person you knew for all the years.

Several posters on these boards have had police called on them claiming spausal abuse has taken place. Be very careful you do not end up on the wrong end of a restraining order.

That's a terrifying and sobering thought, Vapo. I'm glad you threw it out there, to be honest, and I will try not to let my guard down. You're right - it's something I'd have never thought my W capable of doing, but this current being is not the same person I married years ago.

[Cadet]

Don't be afraid to walk out of the room and not engage with her.

That is always an option.

You don't need to resolve everything and DB'ing is to do what works.

Some times avoiding the confrontation is not a bad idea.

[BL42]

If you see indications that it might come to that, I would highly suggest to record the communications.

Understand the laws in your state, which vary. Some states are "one-party consent" meaning if you're a party to the conversation you can record without the other person's knowledge. Others are "two-party consent" in which both parties need to be aware of the recording.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but knowledge = power.

[Doug54]

Maybe ease off of the guilt with her.

It's okay to let her live her decisions by letting her know that you have no plans to move, yet maybe not point out to her about breaking up the family....

It just seems a little vindictive. No matter how true it might be.

IF there is hope of having anything in the future, her feeling judged will NOT point you toward that direction...

Seems pretty simple though....

I would like to pursue IC for now, when that changes, I will let you know...

That's a good point that others have made as well. I dropped the ball on that phrasing.

For now, don't try and borrow trouble from the future.

You never know how this will play out, just focus on you for now....

Don't get sukced into any conversations that you aren't ready to have...

Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung...

And don't ask any questions that you really don't want answered....

I feel like I've done a better job since reading DR and this site. A 180 for me was validating her feelings and avoiding back-and-forth arguments. Since this strategy has been present in my mind, I've had a reasonable amount of success, and trending up.

From what I've seen....things will more than likely get worse before they can get any better...

I've likened it to a Space Shuttle analogy...

When they would launch the Shuttle, they had these booster tanks attached to them because of the amount of fuel they consumed during lift off....

Once they ascended to the desired altitude and the fuel was used, the tanks would fall away....


Think of this right now, as that....

Her anger (the tanks) is her fuel to "push away" from you, the marriage, friends, family, and whoever doesn't support her decisions.

The harder it is to get off of the ground, the more fuel(anger) she will burn trying to lift off...

Yes, it took me a while to get that logic is out the window. I read up a lot on MLCs but DR and this website have helped the most, probably even more than IC up to this point.

Things aren't great in her head right now either, and the anger allows her to paint you in an undesirable position.

There will be things that she says that will not be entirely true, yet to her, they are VERY true...

Thing is...

YOU get to choose what is true to you also...

And the difference??

The things that send that little 'sting" up the back of your neck ??

Those are the things that you typically don't like about yourself....

Those are the things that you dig deep inside of yourself to change...

D.....this didn't break in a day, and it won't be fixed in a day....

Yes, lots of revisionist history that I instinctively tried to rebut before learning about validating and then trying to break that habit. I was particularly annoyed by claims (via her IC, who's never met me) that I'm a narcissist, "diagnosed" based on what strategic soundbites W fed her. I'm certain she only got her IC sessions up and running as fuel and reassurance that leaving me was warranted and the correct move.

For now, just try and take care of yourself....

And remember that you will never talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.....

Set some goals for YOU....

Find something new that you have always wanted to do....

Maybe tell us something about you....

likes ?

Hobbies ?

Find a reason to smile....

Thanks, Mach. I've been trying to GAL and also do more with the kids this summer, which has been win-win - it gets me out with them and gives W space. I appreciate your psych-based approach and feedback!

[Doug54]

Don't be afraid to walk out of the room and not engage with her.

That is always an option.

You don't need to resolve everything and DB'ing is to do what works.

Some times avoiding the confrontation is not a bad idea.

Thanks, Cadet. I tried that a couple times this morning but she was in a bit of a combative place and followed me around the house a bit. Fortunately, it wasn't *that* bad when all was said and done.

[Mach1]

Maybe ease off of the guilt with her.

It's okay to let her live her decisions by letting her know that you have no plans to move, yet maybe not point out to her about breaking up the family....

It just seems a little vindictive. No matter how true it might be.

IF there is hope of having anything in the future, her feeling judged will NOT point you toward that direction...

Seems pretty simple though....

I would like to pursue IC for now, when that changes, I will let you know...

That's a good point that others have made as well. I dropped the ball on that phrasing.

IF she is MLC.....sigh

IF she is, the one thing that an MLCer fears the most, it is judgement.

She will drop friends if she even thinks that they are judging her for her decisions.

Dropping the ball isn't that big of a deal for now, as long as you try not to make that same mistake again.

For now, don't try and borrow trouble from the future.

You never know how this will play out, just focus on you for now....

Don't get sukced into any conversations that you aren't ready to have...

Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung...

And don't ask any questions that you really don't want answered....

I feel like I've done a better job since reading DR and this site. A 180 for me was validating her feelings and avoiding back-and-forth arguments. Since this strategy has been present in my mind, I've had a reasonable amount of success, and trending up.

What has she shown you when you've been able to sit back and hear her ?

The more that you can just listen, the more they say. And with that, IF she is MLC, you will probably hear a bunch of contradicting and confusing stuff....

Some of it will be true, some will be false....

It should resemble what carried Dorothy to start her trip to Oz....

And this is much the same as that....HER trip...she has to do this....

Just try and not be along the road singing.....If I only had a ____

KWIM ???

From what I've seen....things will more than likely get worse before they can get any better...

I've likened it to a Space Shuttle analogy...

When they would launch the Shuttle, they had these booster tanks attached to them because of the amount of fuel they consumed during lift off....

Once they ascended to the desired altitude and the fuel was used, the tanks would fall away....


Think of this right now, as that....

Her anger (the tanks) is her fuel to "push away" from you, the marriage, friends, family, and whoever doesn't support her decisions.

The harder it is to get off of the ground, the more fuel(anger) she will burn trying to lift off...

Yes, it took me a while to get that logic is out the window. I read up a lot on MLCs but DR and this website have helped the most, probably even more than IC up to this point.

Just be aware of that ^^^^

Not sure if you've yet....

When that b!tch switch gets flipped in the middle of a conversation....

Be aware of what it is....


Don't play different because you've read about it...

Be different because that's who you want to be...

Things aren't great in her head right now either, and the anger allows her to paint you in an undesirable position.

There will be things that she says that will not be entirely true, yet to her, they are VERY true...

Thing is...

YOU get to choose what is true to you also...

And the difference??

The things that send that little 'sting" up the back of your neck ??

Those are the things that you typically don't like about yourself....

Those are the things that you dig deep inside of yourself to change...

D.....this didn't break in a day, and it won't be fixed in a day....

Yes, lots of revisionist history that I instinctively tried to rebut before learning about validating and then trying to break that habit. I was particularly annoyed by claims (via her IC, who's never met me) that I'm a narcissist, "diagnosed" based on what strategic soundbites W fed her. I'm certain she only got her IC sessions up and running as fuel and reassurance that leaving me was warranted and the correct move.

Oh yea, the therapist...making decisions about you based off of another person's description.

Truth is.....

It doesn't matter if it's true or not...

Those are her truths to tell. Same as you have your truth to tell....

Somewhere in the middle is probably more where the actual truth is....

You could probably list 500 things that you would like to go back in time and re-do.

Same as she could and possibly is doing...

The difference is....that an MLCer will throw away people first before they can look inward...

YOU get to do almost the same thing, except that you can toss away the behaviors rather than the people....

And you can do that without the destruction and collateral damage that comes along with it...

Thanks, Mach. I've been trying to GAL and also do more with the kids this summer, which has been win-win - it gets me out with them and gives W space. I appreciate your psych-based approach and feedback!

Psych.......o logical ? or chotic ?


: )



I think that you are key here....

How you are, what you choose, how you choose..

You can be a victim or a survivor....your choice.

Your goal. if she is MLC, is to outlast it, and become better than you were while she is spinning her head around and picking up WMLC in her dental fillings.....



Like most, you weren't as awful as you have been painted out to be. A tweak here or there, some new shiny tools in your relationship tool kit. Buff this out, polish that....

You'll get there.

However this turns out, YOU will become a more complete version of yourself if you choose that.

And perhaps one day you will be grateful for every road you took to get there....

[Doug54]

Hi Doug,

I only have time for a quick reply--but WONDERFUL JOB DB'ing when your W wanted an R talk. You set and held firm to boundaries controlling you. You validated her feelings. This is TheWay for either R or D'ing on the best terms. Small misstep (guilting/manipulation). I agree with BL42's reply.

Thanks for the words of affirmation, Traveler. I will try for a perfect response next time, minus the guilt trip. Hopefully with more practice under my belt I'll be able to nail it...better yet, no attempted R talks to begin with!

[Doug54]

To update-

Fun as it was, going away had an unforeseen mental effect - I found myself waxing nostalgic about W half the time. I mean, my friend had to stop me from texting her "I miss you" on a couple instances. I didn't really get why I was brooding over a crappy situation that I should have been breathing a huge sigh of relief to get a respite from.

It is a pretty common occurence. It is called the rose glasses effect. The LBS (left behind spouse) tends to over idealize the failed marriage and the cheating partner. It takes time to shatter these glasses and it is only then that the LBS becomes aware of the true nature of the spouse.

The bloom is already off the rose since that trip, as I am getting an up-close reminder of just how selfish the MLC spouse is. Nauseating.

[Doug54]

Mach, I appreciate your insight and one-liners on the MLC angle. Truth be told, I'm not sure how I'm going to "outlast" it aside from being dug in and unwilling to vacate my own house. I'm starting to resent the heck out of this person (W). And I just re-read the DR chapter on MLC today, which I've usually found to help center my emotional response in the past.

[Cadet]

I'm starting to resent the heck out of this person (W).

All perfectly natural and their is this thread that might help you.


Stages of the LBS
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

[Mach1]

Mach, I appreciate your insight and one-liners on the MLC angle. Truth be told, I'm not sure how I'm going to "outlast" it aside from being dug in and unwilling to vacate my own house. I'm starting to resent the heck out of this person (W). And I just re-read the DR chapter on MLC today, which I've usually found to help center my emotional response in the past.

So what is it that YOU want ??

What do YOU want to work toward ??


I think that you may be seeing this as she is doing this TO you....

Something deliberate, just to hurt you....

Is she ?

OR could it possible that she is doing this for herself...

To find out who she really is inside...

Good friend of mine always said...


Today is not the day that I quit, maybe tomorrow, but lets see what tomorrow brings...


So, a question.....

You still love her ???

Are you willing to give a couple years of your life to see if there is the possibility of that 50 year anniversary ?


I think that the first question is the most important though....

[Doug54]

So what is it that YOU want ??

If we're talking about pie-in-the-sky hopes, I would want my old wife back and to live the life I thought we were destined for, raising our children together.

What do YOU want to work toward ??

Since I can't control W or her actions, I want to work toward self-betterment, being a good father, being happy, eliminating any co-dependent traits, world peace, ending hunger...

I think that you may be seeing this as she is doing this TO you....

Something deliberate, just to hurt you....

Is she ?

OR could it possible that she is doing this for herself...

To find out who she really is inside...

You know...of course the easy answer is that it's her journey. But I'm definitely getting the brunt of it- the snippy responses, moods, eye rolls. One minute she might be acting p!ssy towards me, the next having a full-hearted chuckle with her daughter (my stepdaughter). My IC said I'm probably being "targeted" as a source of what's wrong in her life, though I don't know how much specific familiarity he has with MLC.

Good friend of mine always said...


Today is not the day that I quit, maybe tomorrow, but lets see what tomorrow brings...

A good line to bear in mind. Keep kicking the can down the road as long as possible.

So, a question.....

You still love her ???

Are you willing to give a couple years of your life to see if there is the possibility of that 50 year anniversary ?


I think that the first question is the most important though....

Yes, I do still love her. Eighteen years together and three children (plus the two stepchildren I raised as my own with W) creates a history that can't just be turned off. Some erosion has definitely occurred, but what's been broken can still be put back together. Will it? I really don't know. If I had to guess today, I would put about an 80 percent chance of divorce on my situation. W is really yearning to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

To answer the second question, today, at this moment - no, I don't think I could do two years of this. Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know. If I had a crystal ball and *knew* W would come out of it- could I deal with a year and half of suckitude? Probably. But as a total maybe that she'd exit the MLC? I just don't know.

[Doug54]

Hey LH19 - I saw in another thread that you mentioned since your D you'd probably read about 40 books on self-improvement and relationships (while your EXW had read maybe one). Can you think of maybe the best book that I should look into for this point in my situation? Or maybe something generically good and helpful? Appreciate it.

[LH19]

If I had to guess today, I would put about an 80 percent chance of divorce on my situation. W is really yearning to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

Yeah once the boulder starts rolling down the hill it's hard to stop the momentum.

To answer the second question, today, at this moment - no, I don't think I could do two years of this. Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know. If I had a crystal ball and *knew* W would come out of it- could I deal with a year and half of suckitude? Probably. But as a total maybe that she'd exit the MLC? I just don't know.

I think what Mach is trying to say is what if you take the next two years and just let W be and become the best Dougie Fresh you can be?

Can you add signature to the bottom with your stats?

[Cadet]

Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know.

Not a good way to do this.

My ex-w BD was in 2009.

Is she done with her MLC?
Maybe.
But then again maybe not.

Time is a finite commodity - don't waste it.

Keep living your life "as if"

[LH19]

Hey LH19 - I saw in another thread that you mentioned since your D you'd probably read about 40 books on self-improvement and relationships (while your EXW had read maybe one). Can you think of maybe the best book that I should look into for this point in my situation? Or maybe something generically good and helpful? Appreciate it.

Doug I think every man should read "How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne. If you are looking for something to get your mind off your sitch I would suggest "Four Agreements". Of course at some point you should read the "Five Love Languages". The girl I am dating just borrowed my copy this morning.

Are you hitting the gym Doug?

[Traveler]

Hi Doug,

Sometimes, misogynistic books get plugged here. Many good ones get plugged, too! I'd do a quick search for <title>/<author> + "misogyny" and see what pops up. Misogyny isn't self-improvement and is more likely to lead to frustration than success with your W and dating.

My fave book is "The Lost Art of Listening". The Active Listening and Validation skills it teaches were huge for me in getting to reconciliation and addresses 2 of the 3 problems MWD cites as responsible for the downfall of most salvageable marriages. Scott has also recommended it. Titles by Brené Brown and Kristin Neff also tend to be excellent. Live well, live bravely!

[LH19]

Hi Doug,

Sometimes, misogynistic books get plugged here. Many good ones get plugged, too! I'd do a quick search for <title>/<author> + "misogyny" and see what pops up. Misogyny isn't self-improvement and is more likely to lead to frustration than success with your W and dating.

My fave book is "The Lost Art of Listening". The Active Listening and Validation skills it teaches were huge for me in getting to reconciliation and addresses 2 of the 3 problems MWD cites as responsible for the downfall of most salvageable marriages. Scott has also recommended it. Titles by Brené Brown and Kristin Neff also tend to be excellent.

LOL. He'll try to get me removed from the board by saying I am "cyberbullying" him but you may want to read Travelers threads before you take advice from him.

[BL42]

Doug54,

If we're talking about pie-in-the-sky hopes, I would want my old wife back and to live the life I thought we were destined for, raising our children together.

You're not alone. Most of us wanted that. However, as you mention it's not up to us.

Since I can't control W or her actions, I want to work toward self-betterment, being a good father, being happy, eliminating any co-dependent traits, world peace, ending hunger...

Good goals. Though you may be biting off a little too much with the last two ;-)

You know...of course the easy answer is that it's her journey. But I'm definitely getting the brunt of it- the snippy responses, moods, eye rolls. One minute she might be acting p!ssy towards me, the next having a full-hearted chuckle with her daughter (my stepdaughter). My IC said I'm probably being "targeted" as a source of what's wrong in her life, though I don't know how much specific familiarity he has with MLC.

It's common for the WAS/WS to give a lot of grief to the LBS, even in cases where the LBS was a pretty decent or even good spouse. They're unhappy, and they often put the blame of their unhappiness onto someone else rather than looking inward. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're IC is right (at least partially). It could also be projecting the hurt/anger/blame she has for her own actions & decisions onto you. She feels bad at first about what she's doing but can't blame herself forever and live with that so she has to put that on someone else (often times the spouse).

Yes, I do still love her. Eighteen years together and three children (plus the two stepchildren I raised as my own with W) creates a history that can't just be turned off.

Understandable. A lot of shared history and memories. It doesn't just go away (on either side).

To answer the second question, today, at this moment - no, I don't think I could do two years of this. Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know. If I had a crystal ball and *knew* W would come out of it- could I deal with a year and half of suckitude? Probably. But as a total maybe that she'd exit the MLC? I just don't know.

I think I told you once you have to steel your resolve if you're going to stick it out. Every timeline is different, but it's most likely to take much longer than you first imagine/hope/realize. If you're already saying you can't stick it out a year or two...

[Mach1]

Yes, I do still love her. Eighteen years together and three children (plus the two stepchildren I raised as my own with W) creates a history that can't just be turned off. Some erosion has definitely occurred, but what's been broken can still be put back together. Will it? I really don't know. If I had to guess today, I would put about an 80 percent chance of divorce on my situation. W is really yearning to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

To answer the second question, today, at this moment - no, I don't think I could do two years of this. Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know. If I had a crystal ball and *knew* W would come out of it- could I deal with a year and half of suckitude? Probably. But as a total maybe that she'd exit the MLC? I just don't know.

I would say that YOU have some decisions to make then.....


You are torn....

That's fairly normal this early on...

What if I would guarantee that she would come back ?

What if I would tell you that she just has some steam to blow off and she will be home by November ???

You would do that....right ?

What if, I told you that you would walk through hell with gasoline shorts on, not knowing if you would ever get another chance at a relationship with her...

Go about YOUR business, do the hard internal work of making yourself a better person, just living your life for you and your kiddos....

That makes the choice harder....yes ?


One of those options is "for better"

One of those options is "for worse"

You did promise both didn't you ?



Standing for your marriage is your choice....

You get to make that choice every freakin morning when you wake up...

But you kinda should choose one or the other...

You can't ride two horses with one a$s....

Halfway doing this isn't either answer...


And not to bash you in the head or anything....

But 18 years, and 5 children....

I would think that she deserves a little more than a few months to figure it out...

Maybe ?



Don't let HER define who YOU wanna be....



Once a person finds them self here, the majority of the time, the Marriage that you once knew is already gone. It will be no more. And anything down the road will have to rebuilt from the ashes of that. Hopefully with a new set of skills, appreciation, and commitment from both of you.

And would you really want the same marriage back ?




Soooo....

What would YOU like to do, and work on ???


Somewhere around here, Cadet has some reading material lists....???



Codependent no more....

Journey from abandonment to healing

No more Mr. nice guy

The 5 love languages...


Those were a few that I read during this.....

[Cadet]

Somewhere around here, Cadet has some reading material lists....???

Pinned to the top of the forum 5th thread down

[Doug54]

Hey LH19 - I saw in another thread that you mentioned since your D you'd probably read about 40 books on self-improvement and relationships (while your EXW had read maybe one). Can you think of maybe the best book that I should look into for this point in my situation? Or maybe something generically good and helpful? Appreciate it.

Doug I think every man should read "How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne. If you are looking for something to get your mind off your sitch I would suggest "Four Agreements". Of course at some point you should read the "Five Love Languages". The girl I am dating just borrowed my copy this morning.

Are you hitting the gym Doug?

Thanks for the suggestions. Want to hear some horrible irony? W gifted me a copy of "The Five Love Languages" many years ago and I never fully read it. I guess I got what I deserve.

And yes, I'm always hitting the gym. If I strike out in post-marriage dating, it won't be due to my body (uh... I hope not).

[Doug54]

Somewhere around here, Cadet has some reading material lists....???

Pinned to the top of the forum 5th thread down

Thanks, Cadet. I'll give it a look.

[Doug54]

Hi Doug,

Sometimes, misogynistic books get plugged here. Many good ones get plugged, too! I'd do a quick search for <title>/<author> + "misogyny" and see what pops up. Misogyny isn't self-improvement and is more likely to lead to frustration than success with your W and dating.

My fave book is "The Lost Art of Listening". The Active Listening and Validation skills it teaches were huge for me in getting to reconciliation and addresses 2 of the 3 problems MWD cites as responsible for the downfall of most salvageable marriages. Scott has also recommended it. Titles by Brené Brown and Kristin Neff also tend to be excellent. Live well, live bravely!

Thanks, Traveler. I definitely need to work on my listening skills, which have gotten better since coming upon this site, for what that's worth. I think I'm getting better at validating, though it's not second nature for me yet.

[BL42]

Want to hear some horrible irony? W gifted me a copy of "The Five Love Languages" many years ago and I never fully read it. I guess I got what I deserve.

Easy not to fully appreciate the significance at the time, so don't beat yourself up over it, but likely a warning sign back then...

[Doug54]

It's common for the WAS/WS to give a lot of grief to the LBS, even in cases where the LBS was a pretty decent or even good spouse. They're unhappy, and they often put the blame of their unhappiness onto someone else rather than looking inward. So I wouldn't be surprised if you're IC is right (at least partially). It could also be projecting the hurt/anger/blame she has for her own actions & decisions onto you. She feels bad at first about what she's doing but can't blame herself forever and live with that so she has to put that on someone else (often times the spouse).

That's spot-on. I'm not saying it makes things easier to deal with, but there are common traits to WAS/WS/MLCers.

To answer the second question, today, at this moment - no, I don't think I could do two years of this. Even if I were to assume we're maybe 6 months in, and that two years is down to 1.5...I just don't know. If I had a crystal ball and *knew* W would come out of it- could I deal with a year and half of suckitude? Probably. But as a total maybe that she'd exit the MLC? I just don't know.

I think I told you once you have to steel your resolve if you're going to stick it out. Every timeline is different, but it's most likely to take much longer than you first imagine/hope/realize. If you're already saying you can't stick it out a year or two...[/quote]
That's a fair point. And like you, I don't want to be the one pulling the plug. But if things deteriorate to the point where I feel treated like a second-class citizen in my own house... who knows.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Doug54]

I would say that YOU have some decisions to make then.....


You are torn....

That's fairly normal this early on...

What if I would guarantee that she would come back ?

What if I would tell you that she just has some steam to blow off and she will be home by November ???

You would do that....right ?

Just to be clear, no one has left the house yet and we're still sleeping in the same bed, looking like a regular all-American family to our neighbors. But the writing is on the wall with W wanting out, dreaming of greener pastures. Will she pull the trigger? We'll see.

What if, I told you that you would walk through hell with gasoline shorts on, not knowing if you would ever get another chance at a relationship with her...

Go about YOUR business, do the hard internal work of making yourself a better person, just living your life for you and your kiddos....

That makes the choice harder....yes ?


One of those options is "for better"

One of those options is "for worse"

You did promise both didn't you ?

That's true, but as I alluded to in my first post, I don't know the depth and scope of this emotional affair that happened and/or continues to happen. The MLC "journey" in and of itself is easier to stomach than your spouse having an inappropriate outlet with someone else that supersedes the marriage. A lot unanswered...I have to make my peace with it or move on.

Standing for your marriage is your choice....

You get to make that choice every freakin morning when you wake up...

But you kinda should choose one or the other...

You can't ride two horses with one a$s....

Halfway doing this isn't either answer...


And not to bash you in the head or anything....

But 18 years, and 5 children....

I would think that she deserves a little more than a few months to figure it out...

Maybe ?

Figure it out? Sure. Fish around for other men? Nah. Which of the two is going on? I feel like I'm eating a shyt sandwich. My default mode is giving her space and getting my @ss outta the house. Every moment isn't bad but it still feels a little like purgatory.

Once a person finds them self here, the majority of the time, the Marriage that you once knew is already gone. It will be no more. And anything down the road will have to rebuilt from the ashes of that. Hopefully with a new set of skills, appreciation, and commitment from both of you.

And would you really want the same marriage back ?

That's fine. Sign me up for it. I could handle Marriage 2.0, featuring the refurbished Doug...validating feelings and sucking the marrow out of life.

Somewhere around here, Cadet has some reading material lists....???



Codependent no more....

Journey from abandonment to healing

No more Mr. nice guy

The 5 love languages...


Those were a few that I read during this.....

Good titles. I will look into the ones I haven't read yet; thanks.

[Ready2Change]

Here is my list of books:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

[LH19]

Hey LH19 - I saw in another thread that you mentioned since your D you'd probably read about 40 books on self-improvement and relationships (while your EXW had read maybe one). Can you think of maybe the best book that I should look into for this point in my situation? Or maybe something generically good and helpful? Appreciate it.

Doug I think every man should read "How to be a 3% Man" by Corey Wayne. If you are looking for something to get your mind off your sitch I would suggest "Four Agreements". Of course at some point you should read the "Five Love Languages". The girl I am dating just borrowed my copy this morning.

Are you hitting the gym Doug?

Thanks for the suggestions. Want to hear some horrible irony? W gifted me a copy of "The Five Love Languages" many years ago and I never fully read it. I guess I got what I deserve.

And yes, I'm always hitting the gym. If I strike out in post-marriage dating, it won't be due to my body (uh... I hope not).

I wouldn’t say it’s horrible irony. If you read it and implemented it perfectly I doubt it would make a difference. You guys were raising 5 kids together and your marriage likely got put on the back burner. Unless she begged you to go to marriage counseling and you refused this isn’t on you. She’s looking for the tingles and you can’t provide it for her RIGHT now. Mr. EA or PA is providing that right now.

[LH19]

D,

It has been brought to my attention that I am doing you a disservice by implying that you did nothing wrong and you are a victim. That is not my intention. I was trying to ease your guilt of not reading the "Love Languages" book. I am sure you know everyone can improve on their relationship skills/self improvement and that is why I have read 40 books and continue to seek more knowledge as read in my threads in Surviving. Typically with men we lack empathy and validation skills which lead to disconnection with our partners. When the disconnection happens then both partners tend to ignore the other persons needs. Resentment starts to build until eventually someone is the first to pull the rip cord leading to the LBS landing here.

Your best path to restoring you marriage is to become the best version of yourself.

Detach, 180, GAL.

[SteveLW]

Doug, quick input on some things I learned about MLCs from research and reading after my BD.

LBSs like to diagnose their WAS as MLC because it gives a reason for what they are doing. The fool's gold in that is that we think if we can diagnose the reason, we can fix it. After all, in auto repair, computer repair, just about any repair, we know that troubleshooting is the first step. The problem is that the LBS thinks they can "fix" their WAS. They cannot.

MLCs are misnamed. I prefer to call them Mid-Life Changes. Because rarely (as Cadet alluded to) does the MLCer revert back. IE, who they become as a result of the MLC is who they are for the rst of their life. In fact, if you say the phrase "Midlife crisis" to someone going through this, they will recoil. To them there is no crisis. To them they have never been thinking more clearly. To them the "crisis" is an epiphany! As (I think it was) Mach said, they will gladly cut anyone out of their life that doesn't support their new "efforts". Whether that is partying, or hanging out with new people, or whatever the activities are that the MLC manifests itself towards.

So the question most of us who have had a spouse go through a Mid-Life Change is am I willing to accept this new person they have become. Even if some of the activities eventually go by the boards, likely the person that emerges out the other side will be new and different than they were before. Most LBSs cannot handle this change. Do you think you will be able to handle your W being someone different? Because, as sandi was so fond of saying, she is NOT the girl you married. And never will be again.

Waiting out an MLC, in my opinion, is a losing strategy. I am fond of having a drop dead date. For me it was 1 year past BD. On that date, if my W, no matter who she had become, was not recommitted back to the marriage I was going to have my lawyer file for D. Life is too short to wait for someone else. People that are worth being in your life will not make you wait on them. And if someone does make you wait, you should limit how long you are willing to wait.

In my opinion you are still too focused on her what she is thinking, wanting, considering, doing, etc. That is why you were mentally struggling on your trip. You need to remove the focus from her and keep it on yourself. Move your own life forward through this gift of time (limbo) and she'll either decide to come along or go her own way. Regardless, Doug will be moving forward!

[Doug54]

Here is my list of books:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Doug54]

D,

It has been brought to my attention that I am doing you a disservice by implying that you did nothing wrong and you are a victim. That is not my intention. I was trying to ease your guilt of not reading the "Love Languages" book. I am sure you know everyone can improve on their relationship skills/self improvement and that is why I have read 40 books and continue to seek more knowledge as read in my threads in Surviving. Typically with men we lack empathy and validation skills which lead to disconnection with our partners. When the disconnection happens then both partners tend to ignore the other persons needs. Resentment starts to build until eventually someone is the first to pull the rip cord leading to the LBS landing here.

Your best path to restoring you marriage is to become the best version of yourself.

Detach, 180, GAL.

Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't misconstrue anything. I definitely had my role in things coming unglued. I never crossed a line with W or did anything inappropriate outside the marriage, but I was emotionally distant and not hands-on enough, and it came back to bite me. That bolded line above was probably a perfect encapsulation of me, at least for a time.

I have told a couple people in my close inner circle that W had (and has) several very key "risk factors" for a MLC, not the least of which are some unresolved hurts from childhood including a lack of involvement from her parents. It doesn't lessen the sting of where we are today, but I do think there's a strong chance I could have knocked it out of the park as a husband in every way and still be in this situation. You know, life's passing her by and I'm the main obstacle in the road. But again, the point remains that I could have been better - something I want to improve upon today, tomorrow, and in whatever future relationships life holds for me.

[Doug54]

Doug, quick input on some things I learned about MLCs from research and reading after my BD.

LBSs like to diagnose their WAS as MLC because it gives a reason for what they are doing. The fool's gold in that is that we think if we can diagnose the reason, we can fix it. After all, in auto repair, computer repair, just about any repair, we know that troubleshooting is the first step. The problem is that the LBS thinks they can "fix" their WAS. They cannot.

MLCs are misnamed. I prefer to call them Mid-Life Changes. Because rarely (as Cadet alluded to) does the MLCer revert back. IE, who they become as a result of the MLC is who they are for the rst of their life. In fact, if you say the phrase "Midlife crisis" to someone going through this, they will recoil. To them there is no crisis. To them they have never been thinking more clearly. To them the "crisis" is an epiphany! As (I think it was) Mach said, they will gladly cut anyone out of their life that doesn't support their new "efforts". Whether that is partying, or hanging out with new people, or whatever the activities are that the MLC manifests itself towards.

Thank you, Steve. Likewise, I too read up a ton on the MLC - articles, board posts, full books, you name it. And you're right, of course - it's not like a medical diagnosis that can be followed up with treatment. But I feel it did help to have something like clarification, to see how much W's behavior and actions mimicked the description of a MLC. It also helped me in my response to it.

So the question most of us who have had a spouse go through a Mid-Life Change is am I willing to accept this new person they have become. Even if some of the activities eventually go by the boards, likely the person that emerges out the other side will be new and different than they were before. Most LBSs cannot handle this change. Do you think you will be able to handle your W being someone different? Because, as sandi was so fond of saying, she is NOT the girl you married. And never will be again.

It's a good question - the billion dollar question. As I told Mach1, nothing has been irretrievably broken today, nor has W crossed the rubicon and emerged as something that is fully incompatible for me. But time will tell.

Waiting out an MLC, in my opinion, is a losing strategy. I am fond of having a drop dead date. For me it was 1 year past BD. On that date, if my W, no matter who she had become, was not recommitted back to the marriage I was going to have my lawyer file for D. Life is too short to wait for someone else. People that are worth being in your life will not make you wait on them. And if someone does make you wait, you should limit how long you are willing to wait.

In my opinion you are still too focused on her what she is thinking, wanting, considering, doing, etc. That is why you were mentally struggling on your trip. You need to remove the focus from her and keep it on yourself. Move your own life forward through this gift of time (limbo) and she'll either decide to come along or go her own way. Regardless, Doug will be moving forward!

I get it, I really do. If you've read my thread up to this point, I had exchanges with Mach1 and BL42 where I mentioned sort of a timetable, unsure if I could put up with what I might deem resentful behavior indefinitely. I do agree with you that we only live once, and treading water on behalf of someone who wants to move on from you is not a long-term strategy.

The nature of summer schedules for me, W, and the kids has somewhat limited the amount of hardcore GALing I've been able to implement, but the spirit of doing it hasn't been lost on me. I'm grateful for all the voices on this board who have expressed encouragement.

[Doug54]

So, folks...yesterday I caved and attended MC with the wife. My calculus was that for me to be rigidly inflexible on something W was asking of me would be more of the same - not a 180. Truth be told, I didn't care that much - there was nothing the counselor could say that would make me respond, "Gee, I really see your point there. Guess I'll head home and pack up to move out."

The session went ok, at least much better than the first time. I did acknowledge to the counselor that I didn't want a divorce, to which she asked W if there was anything that could be worked on to change her mind. W responded that her IC had "helped" her see that there were signs of emotional abuse in the relationship and that she felt she'd moved on from the marriage. I had to bite my tongue there. I don't know - as Mach1 said, those are her truths and I have my own truths about the relationship.

The topic turned to what form separation might take. I reiterated in a matter-of-fact, grounded way that I was opposed to moving out of my own house for something I didn't want. W acknowledged that she didn't have the money to get her own place right now and that she was adamantly against uprooting the kids. She's still in love with the nesting, rotating apartment idea if and when funds permit it, no doubt influenced by hearing of it from her old friends. The counselor did say that she didn't blame me for not wanting to move out.

The session ended unceremoniously. No angry feelings or contempt. To be honest, I actually felt ok about it and didn't regret going. W said to me in the car on the way home, "I think we're just going to have to stay put for a while." That statement went pretty counter to most of her remarks to the counselor, like she wanted out of the marriage and living arrangement *yesterday*.

Her mood at home the rest of the night was pretty good. I was in a nice, carefree mood myself. We shared a moment of flirtatious talk before I had to leave for something and she said, "I'm conflicted and you're basically like 'Peace out!'" Nothing out of her mouth in the counseling session suggested she was "conflicted" about leaving, but whatever.

There's a very fair chance we co-habitate through this upcoming school year due to limited options. Not to get ahead of things, though. The counselor did bring up in-home separation and suggest some people simply lie about adhering to it in order to start the separation clock leading up to a divorce filing, but that might take cooperation from both spouses. Not sure if W will try to float that by me.

So, that's the state of play. I'm sorry to say that detachment has kind of stagnated for the time being, so that's something I need to work on. I don't know- I feel good. The sun is shining, I'm healthy, my kids are healthy, I'm going to hit the gym today and try to get some reading in this evening, it's still summer... carpe diem, right (Latin for "seize the day" - any Dead Poet's Society fans?).

[LH19]

Thanks for the clarification, but I didn't misconstrue anything.

No a poster who I know who is more pro WW than me texted me saying I wasn't doing you any favors by telling you that if you read LLs it wouldn't have made a difference. I know it was probably making you feel guilty so I was trying to ease the guilt. As you state clearly below you know you have changes to make moving forward.

I definitely had my role in things coming unglued.

Yep. Most of us here who aren't narcissistic know what we contributed to the downfall.

I never crossed a line with W or did anything inappropriate outside the marriage, but I was emotionally distant and not hands-on enough, and it came back to bite me.

Yep. You were doing the best you could with the knowledge you had at the time.

That bolded line above was probably a perfect encapsulation of me, at least for a time.

Yep. Most men here would probably agree.

It doesn't lessen the sting of where we are today, but I do think there's a strong chance I could have knocked it out of the park as a husband in every way and still be in this situation.

100% She's a butterfly chaser looking for the tingles.

You know, life's passing her by and I'm the main obstacle in the road.

Yep. She needs a major change because no way is she spending the rest of her life in a tingless marriage.

But again, the point remains that I could have been better - something I want to improve upon today, tomorrow, and in whatever future relationships life holds for me.

You have the right attitude Doug. You are going to be better than fine!

[LH19]

I was in a nice, carefree mood myself. We shared a moment of flirtatious talk before I had to leave for something and she said, "I'm conflicted and you're basically like 'Peace out!'"

WW BS. Hope you didn't respond.

Nothing out of her mouth in the counseling session suggested she was "conflicted" about leaving, but whatever.

Because she's not.

There's a very fair chance we co-habitate through this upcoming school year due to limited options.

Good times. Nothing like living with a caged animal for the entire school year.

[Traveler]

I caved.. My calculus was that for me to be rigidly inflexible on something W was asking of me would be more of the same - not a 180.

"Caving" is not attractive. Hopefully, you were able to listen, validate, and be firm without arguing or guilting. Not many LBS are able to do that when pressed in an MC session.

I had to bite my tongue there. I don't know - as Mach1 said, those are her truths and I have my own truths about the relationship.

Impressive control.

The topic turned to what form separation might take. I reiterated in a matter-of-fact, grounded way that I was opposed to moving out of my own house for something I didn't want. W acknowledged that she didn't have the money to get her own place right now and that she was adamantly against uprooting the kids.

Great job!

W said to me in the car on the way home, "I think we're just going to have to stay put for a while." That statement went pretty counter to most of her remarks to the counselor, like she wanted out of the marriage and living arrangement *yesterday*.

Yes! The arguments and manipulation typically come when they believe it's something you'll cave on--like attending the MC session. When you're firm there's no point.

"I'm conflicted and you're basically like 'Peace out!'" Nothing out of her mouth in the counseling session suggested she was "conflicted" about leaving, but whatever.

Yes! Good job not reading too much into this. You showed strength which is attractive and shot down her fantasy plans of moving out or nesting. WAS are not robots, and she probably is slightly more conflicted now. How did you reply? Hopefully, you didn't reassure her.

So, that's the state of play. I'm sorry to say that detachment has kind of stagnated for the time being, so that's something I need to work on. I don't know- I feel good. The sun is shining, I'm healthy, my kids are healthy, I'm going to hit the gym today and try to get some reading in this evening, it's still summer... carpe diem, right (Latin for "seize the day" - any Dead Poet's Society fans?).

Robin Williams, R.I.P. That's a wonderful attitude and plan--the gym and reading.

Again, Doug54, you're ahead of the typical LBS curve.

[Mach1]

Her mood at home the rest of the night was pretty good. I was in a nice, carefree mood myself. We shared a moment of flirtatious talk before I had to leave for something and she said, "I'm conflicted and you're basically like 'Peace out!'" Nothing out of her mouth in the counseling session suggested she was "conflicted" about leaving, but whatever.

Most in crisis will try and talk them self into their arrangement. They will try to convince them self that "their" truth is THE truth....

Kinda like......we tend to work toward our goals.....


I'd prolly just say....'Those aren't my words' and leave it at that......

Let your actions speak for now....



Go back to the space shuttle analogy....

She is gonna find fuel my friend.....

[SteveLW]

Traveler nailed it. Caving is not a strong move. Therefore not attractive. Weak moves do not command respect. Always pick commanding respect over being nice.

Also do not use DBing as an excuse to break DBing. DBing says that MC is not something you should do. Even IF that is a 180 for you. 180s do not override other DBing principles.

As far as the rest of the exchange that resulted, obviously my stance is that they should never have happened. She is using MC to try to get you to cave (and this is why caving is a bad idea because if you cave on MC then just maybe you'll cave on nesting or some other thing). So it is hard to for me to give props.

What I will say is that she is trying to manipulate you. "Go to MC!" So she can try to get you to cave on her other plans. "I am conflicted." If you continue to play ball with what I want it might save the marriage. (HINT: It won't.) "It looks like we have to stay put for now." If I act like I am resigned to the way things are then maybe Doug will give me more of what I want.

Believe NOTHING she says. That literally means NOTHING.

[SteveLW]

I'd prolly just say....'Those aren't my words' and leave it at that......

Let your actions speak for now....

FTW!!!

[Doug54]

I was in a nice, carefree mood myself. We shared a moment of flirtatious talk before I had to leave for something and she said, "I'm conflicted and you're basically like 'Peace out!'"

WW BS. Hope you didn't respond.

Yes! Good job not reading too much into this. You showed strength which is attractive and shot down her fantasy plans of moving out or nesting. WAS are not robots, and she probably is slightly more conflicted now. How did you reply? Hopefully, you didn't reassure her.

Most in crisis will try and talk them self into their arrangement. They will try to convince them self that "their" truth is THE truth....

Kinda like......we tend to work toward our goals.....


I'd prolly just say....'Those aren't my words' and leave it at that......

Let your actions speak for now....


Go back to the space shuttle analogy....

She is gonna find fuel my friend.....

Ok, so it's funny everyone seized upon this exchange. As much as I post for affirmation or condemnation or advice as a newbie on this forum, I don't need much help on this one (for once). Here's the deal: W absolutely is conflicted...but not about whether she wants to bask in the glory of Doug in the marriage. Her internal conflict is about breaking up the family and the collateral damage that divorce would bring in all its elements - financial, emotional, physical. I saw countless texts to friends where W expressed worry about regretting splitting up or doubting that she had the courage to go through with a D (back when I did snoop around, which I've since stopped for my own sanity).

Now, does that mean it won't happen? Of course not. If you asked me today, I'd probably predict an LH19-style year of treading water in a dead marriage, with a possible filing next summer. That would be contingent on an in-home separation. Absent that, maybe separation would happen next summer in the form of someone getting an apartment. Or, something falls into her lap and she leaves next week. Or, maybe the house will catch fire and I'll rescue her, and she'll realize she still loves me.

Aside from the last scenario, the outlook is basically blah. I feel like Leo in Titanic when they're climbing up the bow of the ship to what would be the last place above water. The only silver lining is that W pretty much knows by now that I. Am. Not. Moving. Out. I mean, that's been hammered home. And she's not acting miffed towards me today at all, even after yesterday's counseling session. Just now she sought me out to ask if I liked her nails. She could easily make life in the house shytty for me and close up the nookie shop as well, but there's no indication that's imminent. I know there are mixed thoughts on that but I'm content to ride it out (also in LH19-style...I guess I am learning at the heels of a great master).

As to my response to W saying she's conflicted and I'm like Peace out...I simply said "Right. Well, I gotta go pick up (S14)." And with that, I walked out of the house to my car. Flawless victory.

[LH19]

D,

Yeah you have young kids and at 43 you have lots of time to think about your future. Ride this puppy out and boink her if she wants to keep doing it. Just shows you are not a monster. Only a psycho would boink a monster right? Make the changes you need to make and enjoy the remaining 100% of the time you have with the kids. IHS gets easier once you officially wave the white flag and surrender to the unknown. You won’t feel like this forever and you will be happier in the long run.

[IronWill]

Hi Doug -

You seem to be doing well as an LBS. I would recommend you keep on your path of improvement and growth. That will never fail you.

No more MC.

Maybe much much later, but not now. There is no logic in attending MC when only one party wants to reconcile. It takes two to tango. Right now you are one.

Focus on yourself and your kids. Get out of her head and what she is thinking. You don't want to know nor do you need to know what she's thinking.

She's already said she wants distance. So give it to her.

You got this.

Take care

IW

[Doug54]

Traveler nailed it. Caving is not a strong move. Therefore not attractive. Weak moves do not command respect. Always pick commanding respect over being nice.

My problem during parts of the relationship was that I tried to command too much respect to the point I came off as an a-hole. Furthermore, perhaps "caving" was not the word I should have used there. On my own, I agreed to go...knowing it wasn't going to be a big deal other than a wasted co-pay.

As far as the rest of the exchange that resulted, obviously my stance is that they should never have happened. She is using MC to try to get you to cave (and this is why caving is a bad idea because if you cave on MC then just maybe you'll cave on nesting or some other thing). So it is hard to for me to give props.

That's very fair, and I can already tell I'm going to have a tough time on the nesting BS if and when it comes around because I'll be thinking of the kids getting to see both parents in the house. Don't get me wrong, I've read all the reasons not to nest from this board...and I would *not* be a happy camper if I found a used rubber in the trash of the co-apartment.

What I will say is that she is trying to manipulate you. "Go to MC!" So she can try to get you to cave on her other plans. "I am conflicted." If you continue to play ball with what I want it might save the marriage. (HINT: It won't.) "It looks like we have to stay put for now." If I act like I am resigned to the way things are then maybe Doug will give me more of what I want.

Believe NOTHING she says. That literally means NOTHING.

I've mostly been ok on refusing to believe anything she says, mainly because everything gets cancelled out at one point or another. There's no consistency. If you read my latest post, I'm mostly resigned to having to settle in for a bit of a ride. I have offered W the door and meant it, but she won't leave the kids (which, honestly, would be quite painful to see her make that choice).

[Doug54]

Hi Doug -

You seem to be doing well as an LBS. I would recommend you keep on your path of improvement and growth. That will never fail you.

No more MC.

Maybe much much later, but not now. There is no logic in attending MC when only one party wants to reconcile. It takes two to tango. Right now you are one.

Focus on yourself and your kids. Get out of her head and what she is thinking. You don't want to know nor do you need to know what she's thinking.

She's already said she wants distance. So give it to her.

You got this.

Take care

IW

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Will. That's a good observation - I most definitely would not want to know what she's thinking in her head. I have been playing the distance card and it usually results in her seeking me out. I mean, it's a nothing-burger but at least I'm not pursuing.

[Doug54]

D,

Yeah you have young kids and at 43 you have lots of time to think about your future. Ride this puppy out and boink her if she wants to keep doing it. Just shows you are not a monster. Only a psycho would boink a monster right? Make the changes you need to make and enjoy the remaining 100% of the time you have with the kids. IHS gets easier once you officially wave the white flag and surrender to the unknown. You won’t feel like this forever and you will be happier in the long run.

That's logic worthy of Aristotle right there. So...you did in-home separation. I was going to ask because I believe you said W still lived with you for a year after filing, which doesn't make sense any other way. I'm guessing you didn't really "maintain separation" but still acknowledged it in writing? I guess that's how these things may play out.

How did you know when it was time to wave the white flag? Did you shed any tears at that point? I feel like I'm desensitized since this has been going on for months, but it would still be a gut punch if W up and left tomorrow.

I know you've said that your EXW has settled for a bit of a schlub (are they now married?) and that she misses the kids when they're not with her. Do you think she regrets splitting up?

Thanks, LH.

[Vapo]

As far as the rest of the exchange that resulted, obviously my stance is that they should never have happened. She is using MC to try to get you to cave (and this is why caving is a bad idea because if you cave on MC then just maybe you'll cave on nesting or some other thing). So it is hard to for me to give props.

What I will say is that she is trying to manipulate you. "Go to MC!" So she can try to get you to cave on her other plans. "I am conflicted." If you continue to play ball with what I want it might save the marriage. (HINT: It won't.) "It looks like we have to stay put for now." If I act like I am resigned to the way things are then maybe Doug will give me more of what I want.

Believe NOTHING she says. That literally means NOTHING.

What Steve said. She is trying to manipulate you. Also her saying she is conflicted. She is not. She know exactly what she wants and that is you out of the picture. Period. Again what Steve said, believe NOTHING she says, NOTHING! Spouses in these situation will lie, steal, manipulate like there is no tomorrow. Again I caution you to remain vigilant to not find yourself on the wrong end of a restraining order.

[SteveLW]

Traveler nailed it. Caving is not a strong move. Therefore not attractive. Weak moves do not command respect. Always pick commanding respect over being nice.

My problem during parts of the relationship was that I tried to command too much respect to the point I came off as an a-hole. Furthermore, perhaps "caving" was not the word I should have used there. On my own, I agreed to go...knowing it wasn't going to be a big deal other than a wasted co-pay.

As far as the rest of the exchange that resulted, obviously my stance is that they should never have happened. She is using MC to try to get you to cave (and this is why caving is a bad idea because if you cave on MC then just maybe you'll cave on nesting or some other thing). So it is hard to for me to give props.

That's very fair, and I can already tell I'm going to have a tough time on the nesting BS if and when it comes around because I'll be thinking of the kids getting to see both parents in the house. Don't get me wrong, I've read all the reasons not to nest from this board...and I would *not* be a happy camper if I found a used rubber in the trash of the co-apartment.

What I will say is that she is trying to manipulate you. "Go to MC!" So she can try to get you to cave on her other plans. "I am conflicted." If you continue to play ball with what I want it might save the marriage. (HINT: It won't.) "It looks like we have to stay put for now." If I act like I am resigned to the way things are then maybe Doug will give me more of what I want.

Believe NOTHING she says. That literally means NOTHING.

I've mostly been ok on refusing to believe anything she says, mainly because everything gets cancelled out at one point or another. There's no consistency. If you read my latest post, I'm mostly resigned to having to settle in for a bit of a ride. I have offered W the door and meant it, but she won't leave the kids (which, honestly, would be quite painful to see her make that choice).

Being a jerk, butthole, etc is NOT commanding respect. Commanding respect is confidence, not arrogance. It is standing up for yourself, not stepping on others. It is knowing what you will tolerate and what you won't, and enforcing those boundaries though calm, cool action on YOUR part. Lots of people confuse commanding respect with demanding respect. It sounds like in your pre-BD self you were doing the latter, not the former.

Please do not gloss over my point about not using 180s as an excuse to break good DBing principles. Lots of LBSs struggle with that.

I think caving is the perfect word. You were insistent that you were done with MC......then you went.

I do like what you said about your W being conflicted. She is conflicted about what she wants vs. the cost. But that she doesn't want to be with you is in cement. Very good self-awareness and awareness of reality there, so kudos.

My biggest concern I am seeing (180 opportunity) is that you want to be patted on the back for doing everything right, even when you do something that is against advice. THis is your situation, not ours. So do what you want, what you feel is right, and if we don't like it we will let you know, but that is what we are here from. But do not take it personally. All of the feedback and advice is from a place of wanting to help. I can't speak for everyone that posts on this forum, but I certainly take no personal joy out of 2x4ing someone. But I know in my own situation that the 2x4s, in hindsight, were more helpful than the attaboys.

[IronWill]

Doug -

Steve is very wise. It would do you good to listen to him. He has helped me very much over the years.

I have been IHS for almost 4 years. This can give you some idea of how long a time-line we are talk9ng about. Where S and I are now is much better than before but it is nowhere near what would be considered an R. We are cordial and friendly. That's the extent of it.

I'm open to any possibility at this point. How I got here is by distancing myself without being rude or unkind or unfriendly. Not asking questions. Talking less. Meditating. Realizing I can only control my own actions. Going to IC. Reading etc. It's a tricky balance but it is possible, and these are all things you could try as well.

The question is this: what do you want to do?

Best

IW

[Mach1]

Traveler nailed it. Caving is not a strong move. Therefore not attractive. Weak moves do not command respect. Always pick commanding respect over being nice.

My problem during parts of the relationship was that I tried to command too much respect to the point I came off as an a-hole. Furthermore, perhaps "caving" was not the word I should have used there. On my own, I agreed to go...knowing it wasn't going to be a big deal other than a wasted co-pay.

As far as the rest of the exchange that resulted, obviously my stance is that they should never have happened. She is using MC to try to get you to cave (and this is why caving is a bad idea because if you cave on MC then just maybe you'll cave on nesting or some other thing). So it is hard to for me to give props.

That's very fair, and I can already tell I'm going to have a tough time on the nesting BS if and when it comes around because I'll be thinking of the kids getting to see both parents in the house. Don't get me wrong, I've read all the reasons not to nest from this board...and I would *not* be a happy camper if I found a used rubber in the trash of the co-apartment.

What I will say is that she is trying to manipulate you. "Go to MC!" So she can try to get you to cave on her other plans. "I am conflicted." If you continue to play ball with what I want it might save the marriage. (HINT: It won't.) "It looks like we have to stay put for now." If I act like I am resigned to the way things are then maybe Doug will give me more of what I want.

Believe NOTHING she says. That literally means NOTHING.

I've mostly been ok on refusing to believe anything she says, mainly because everything gets cancelled out at one point or another. There's no consistency. If you read my latest post, I'm mostly resigned to having to settle in for a bit of a ride. I have offered W the door and meant it, but she won't leave the kids (which, honestly, would be quite painful to see her make that choice).

Being a jerk, butthole, etc is NOT commanding respect. Commanding respect is confidence, not arrogance. It is standing up for yourself, not stepping on others. It is knowing what you will tolerate and what you won't, and enforcing those boundaries though calm, cool action on YOUR part. Lots of people confuse commanding respect with demanding respect. It sounds like in your pre-BD self you were doing the latter, not the former.

Please do not gloss over my point about not using 180s as an excuse to break good DBing principles. Lots of LBSs struggle with that.

I think caving is the perfect word. You were insistent that you were done with MC......then you went.

I do like what you said about your W being conflicted. She is conflicted about what she wants vs. the cost. But that she doesn't want to be with you is in cement. Very good self-awareness and awareness of reality there, so kudos.

My biggest concern I am seeing (180 opportunity) is that you want to be patted on the back for doing everything right, even when you do something that is against advice. THis is your situation, not ours. So do what you want, what you feel is right, and if we don't like it we will let you know, but that is what we are here from. But do not take it personally. All of the feedback and advice is from a place of wanting to help. I can't speak for everyone that posts on this forum, but I certainly take no personal joy out of 2x4ing someone. But I know in my own situation that the 2x4s, in hindsight, were more helpful than the attaboys.

In less words (although they work too)...





Don't let HER define who YOU want to be ....

[Mach1]

Doug -

Steve is very wise. It would do you good to listen to him. He has helped me very much over the years.

I have been IHS for almost 4 years. This can give you some idea of how long a time-line we are talk9ng about. Where S and I are now is much better than before but it is nowhere near what would be considered an R. We are cordial and friendly. That's the extent of it.

I'm open to any possibility at this point. How I got here is by distancing myself without being rude or unkind or unfriendly. Not asking questions. Talking less. Meditating. Realizing I can only control my own actions. Going to IC. Reading etc. It's a tricky balance but it is possible, and these are all things you could try as well.

The question is this: what do you want to do?

Best

IW

IW.....I have asked that same question a couple times myself....

To summerize....

My wife did this so I did this...

My wife did this so I did that....

It's early still though....

Hopefully he can see how much focus is on her instead of himself....



I also did an in-home thing, for two and a half years....


Aloof, yet available, was my way....

[LH19]

That's logic worthy of Aristotle right there. So...you did in-home separation. I was going to ask because I believe you said W still lived with you for a year after filing, which doesn't make sense any other way. I'm guessing you didn't really "maintain separation" but still acknowledged it in writing? I guess that's how these things may play out.

I am not sure what you mean here? If you mean did we have a separation agreement the answer is no. She wanted to nest and legally separate but I opted for divorce. I wanted a clean break.

How did you know when it was time to wave the white flag?

When she told her parents I knew there was no going back. Her dad really laid into her and she almost wavered. I am glad she didn't because I would be in a dead end miserable marriage right now.

Did you shed any tears at that point?

Oh yeah! The first trip they took without me I was fine for the first 4-5 days. Then on the sixth day out of nowhere I went to the floor and cried uncontrollably for a half hour. I literally couldn't move.

I feel like I'm desensitized since this has been going on for months, but it would still be a gut punch if W up and left tomorrow.

No way around it buddy you are going to have to go through the stages of grief. Google it if you are not familiar with it.

I know you've said that your EXW has settled for a bit of a schlub (are they now married?)

Nah. I had to swipe left on her on Bumble a couple of months ago. It's either done or she is back to monkey branching. About a month ago I had to go to a party and my son was nervous about seeing him there.

and that she misses the kids when they're not with her.

I think she does. I don't give them up often on my time but when I do she takes them every time.

Do you think she regrets splitting up?

Pure speculation here Doug. I think she may regret not trying harder. Our marriage was definitely broken but we had a lot in common and had fun together. It definitely needed a major overhaul. If she came back today and wanted another chance I would say no. I have zero faith she is capable of remorse and doing the work necessary to start over. Would I 100% write her off forever? Nah. We had some really good years together and were able to produce 2 AMAZING kids that will keep us bonded forever.

[Doug54]

What Steve said. She is trying to manipulate you. Also her saying she is conflicted. She is not. She know exactly what she wants and that is you out of the picture. Period. Again what Steve said, believe NOTHING she says, NOTHING! Spouses in these situation will lie, steal, manipulate like there is no tomorrow. Again I caution you to remain vigilant to not find yourself on the wrong end of a restraining order.

Thanks for the reminder, Vapo. No, it's not a fun situation to be in. As I said before, all outward appearances would indicate a regular functioning family, but inside there's an absence of trust and a hollow marriage. This board and posts like your definitely help me keep things in perspective.

[BL42]

As I said before, all outward appearances would indicate a regular functioning family, but inside there's an absence of trust and a hollow marriage.

Makes you wonder how many other couples you think are happy and functioning are actually in the same situation behind the scenes. Not something to take pleasure in, but you're not alone.

[Doug54]

I think caving is the perfect word. You were insistent that you were done with MC......then you went.

I do like what you said about your W being conflicted. She is conflicted about what she wants vs. the cost. But that she doesn't want to be with you is in cement. Very good self-awareness and awareness of reality there, so kudos.

My biggest concern I am seeing (180 opportunity) is that you want to be patted on the back for doing everything right, even when you do something that is against advice. THis is your situation, not ours. So do what you want, what you feel is right, and if we don't like it we will let you know, but that is what we are here from. But do not take it personally. All of the feedback and advice is from a place of wanting to help. I can't speak for everyone that posts on this forum, but I certainly take no personal joy out of 2x4ing someone. But I know in my own situation that the 2x4s, in hindsight, were more helpful than the attaboys.

I don't think I'm looking for a pat on the back so much as seeking feedback from the board members on the update I posted. Perhaps the "flawless victory" attempt to add levity rather came off as too much mustard instead. But to your point, 2x4's are perfectly valid when warranted. That's probably the whole point of the board - to be a place where neophytes to these circumstances can see the advice and input of veterans who have been there before.

I appreciate your comments, of course, and particularly the addendum that only I can be the one to address my particular situation. DR talks about trying different responses and actions to see what works, and discard or continue correspondingly. Honestly, I don't know if there's a perfect strategy out there for me at this point, other than "doing me," improving myself, and detaching as much as possible...to the extent possible short of separate living arrangements.

[Doug54]

As I said before, all outward appearances would indicate a regular functioning family, but inside there's an absence of trust and a hollow marriage.

Makes you wonder how many other couples you think are happy and functioning are actually in the same situation behind the scenes. Not something to take pleasure in, but you're not alone.

I literally had that same thought as I typed. Or, the number of unhappy married couples that aren't actually planning to divorce, but just playing out the string for the sake of the kids, fear of the unknown, etc. And living in just as much misery (or almost) as a WAW/LBS circumstance.

[Doug54]

Doug -

Steve is very wise. It would do you good to listen to him. He has helped me very much over the years.

I have been IHS for almost 4 years. This can give you some idea of how long a time-line we are talk9ng about. Where S and I are now is much better than before but it is nowhere near what would be considered an R. We are cordial and friendly. That's the extent of it.

I'm open to any possibility at this point. How I got here is by distancing myself without being rude or unkind or unfriendly. Not asking questions. Talking less. Meditating. Realizing I can only control my own actions. Going to IC. Reading etc. It's a tricky balance but it is possible, and these are all things you could try as well.

The question is this: what do you want to do?

Best

IW

That is insane, dude. I cannot imagine. Would you mind sharing any details about how that came to be? I mean, I'm glad you stated things are cordial and friendly, but...ugh. That sounds like hell on earth, especially given LH19's assurances that we will all feel better once limbo is over (meaning divorce a lot of the time, but yeah...). I also miss the companionship aspect of being married and doing things together, which has fallen by the wayside for me.

To your question - what do I want to do? I stated earlier in the thread that I hoped to better myself, be a good and present father, and make changes that would benefit me in my next relationship. I just don't see W emerging from this MLC any time soon, or ever settling for not seeing if the grass is greener on the other side. Right now I'm resigned to the status quo for a while, unless W suddenly rents an apartment. Stated today, I don't plan to be the one to file or break anything that can't be put back together again (figuratively).

That's more or less where I am. I welcome your thoughts.

[Doug54]

IW.....I have asked that same question a couple times myself....

To summerize....

My wife did this so I did this...

My wife did this so I did that....

It's early still though....

Hopefully he can see how much focus is on her instead of himself....


I also did an in-home thing, for two and a half years....


Aloof, yet available, was my way....

Yeah, my attempts at detachment have left a lot to be desired. I don't know if I'll ever be in the clear while we're living in the same house.

Were those two-and-a-half years rough for you? Or were you sufficiently aloof and detached to the point where you cruised by? Did you and your W interact at all then?

[BL42]

Yeah you have young kids and at 43 you have lots of time to think about your future. Ride this puppy out and boink her if she wants to keep doing it. Just shows you are not a monster. Only a psycho would boink a monster right? Make the changes you need to make and enjoy the remaining 100% of the time you have with the kids. IHS gets easier once you officially wave the white flag and surrender to the unknown. You won’t feel like this forever and you will be happier in the long run.

Wanted to follow up on this one...

Definitely agree with LH on not rushing into anything due to the young kids and a lot of time, but in terms of continuing to have sex with her you better be really careful there. First, be safe from an STD perspective because I hate to say this but you can't be certain what she's done. Second, you better be absolutely sure you're 100% detached and have fully accepted the marriage might be over (I.e., "waved the white flag). Easier said than done when you're still having sex with the mother of your children. A lot of LBSs think they're detached and accepting, but then something that smacks them in the face and they realize they weren't. The sex can hurt your detachment and can be used as a way for her to manipulate you to keep you as a backup and to soften you up to get you to do what she wants in the separation/divorce.

If you can keep having sex and simply enjoy the physical act and know you're 100% detached and accepting, great...you do you. But easier said than done.

Just my $0.02.

[Doug54]

I am not sure what you mean here? If you mean did we have a separation agreement the answer is no. She wanted to nest and legally separate but I opted for divorce. I wanted a clean break.

What I meant was, did you embody the true spirit of IHS in that you and EXW were on different floors and didn't see each other (or whatever). From what I've heard, it's possible to basically fudge this as long as both parties sign on to it at the end. I honestly don't know what the norm is.

When she told her parents I knew there was no going back. Her dad really laid into her and she almost wavered. I am glad she didn't because I would be in a dead end miserable marriage right now.

So, you mentioned in a previous reply that it "wasn't that bad" once you accepted that things were over. How much did you and W do together / interact in the house / etc after that point? Did you guys do anything at all that normal couples do out - tennis, go to a restaurant just the two of you, etc.? Or was that part of of your marriage dead and buried?

Pure speculation here Doug. I think she may regret not trying harder. Our marriage was definitely broken but we had a lot in common and had fun together. It definitely needed a major overhaul. If she came back today and wanted another chance I would say no. I have zero faith she is capable of remorse and doing the work necessary to start over. Would I 100% write her off forever? Nah. We had some really good years together and were able to produce 2 AMAZING kids that will keep us bonded forever.

I have read a lot of your posts throughout the board, and it really feels like in your heart of hearts, you want the fairy tale ending with W. You should've swiped right on Bumble Either way, I am rooting for you, bud.

Thanks as always for the input.

[BL42]

Nah. I had to swipe left on her on Bumble a couple of months ago.

You should've swiped right on Bumble

LOL! I don't know about that! If she wants him back bad enough she knows where to find him.

[Doug54]

Well, tomorrow is my anniversary - 16 years. Yeah, I already put 16 in my signature, but tomorrow is the day. What's the proper protocol here given the circumstances? I'm assuming nothing. I could see W maybe mentioning it, but there won't be any cards or gifts. Actually, when things were fine, she wasn't that big on an anniversary gift from W to husband. Which was fine.

Any thoughts are welcomed.

[LH19]

First, be safe from an STD perspective because I hate to say this but you can't be certain what she's done.

Well when you get out in the dating world you can't be sure what the other person has done. Double bag it.

Second, you better be absolutely sure you're 100% detached and have fully accepted the marriage might be over (I.e., "waved the white flag). Easier said than done when you're still having sex with the mother of your children.

In IHS you are never going to be 100% detached. Mine as well get a little.

A lot of LBSs think they're detached and accepting, but then something that smacks them in the face and they realize they weren't.

This happens regardless of sex or no sex.

The sex can hurt your detachment and can be used as a way for her to manipulate you to keep you as a backup and to soften you up to get you to do what she wants in the separation/divorce.

Only if you let it. Remember a great 180 is learning to control your emotions.

If you can keep having sex and simply enjoy the physical act and know you're 100% detached and accepting, great...you do you. But easier said than done.

Doug you will know better than anyone what you can handle.

[BL42]

Well, tomorrow is my anniversary - 16 years. Yeah, I already put 16 in my signature, but tomorrow is the day. What's the proper protocol here given the circumstances? I'm assuming nothing. I could see W maybe mentioning it, but there won't be any cards or gifts. Actually, when things were fine, she wasn't that big on an anniversary gift from W to husband. Which was fine.

Any thoughts are welcomed.

No gifts, no cards, no flowers. Avoid the temptation of a grand gesture to "show her you care" and "win her back". If she mentions it smile and say "same to you" and then go out and hit the gym or go out to lunch with a friend.

Also, be prepared for a "no win" situation. I.e., if you do something nice for the anniversary she'll use that as an opportunity to remind you she's done and you're simply not listening to her which is "proof" she's right to leave, and if you don't do something for it she'll use that as "proof" you don't care and validation she is right to leave you.

[LH19]

So, you mentioned in a previous reply that it "wasn't that bad" once you accepted that things were over. How much did you and W do together / interact in the house / etc after that point? What I meant was, did you embody the true spirit of IHS in that you and EXW were on different floors and didn't see each other (or whatever). Did you guys do anything at all that normal couples do out - tennis, go to a restaurant just the two of you, etc.? Or was that part of of your marriage dead and buried?

Nah. Slept in same bed until she left hence the sex lol. Had dinners as a family for the kids. Everything else was completely separate. Though if she was out and was like getting a coffee she would text me to see if I wanted one.

I have read a lot of your posts throughout the board, and it really feels like in your heart of hearts, you want the fairy tale ending with W. You should've swiped right on Bumble Either way, I am rooting for you, bud.

As I have said now is not the time. I am enjoying other female companion ship right now. As BL put it, passing me a note in class saying "I like you" isn't going to cut it. They don't realize it but thy fuch over a lot of people (my family) in the process. If it ever did happen it would be many many years from now.

[IronWill]

IW.....I have asked that same question a couple times myself....

To summerize....

My wife did this so I did this...

My wife did this so I did that....

It's early still though....

Hopefully he can see how much focus is on her instead of himself....

I also did an in-home thing, for two and a half years....

Aloof, yet available, was my way....

Yes, very much the same here. I forget the poster here who gave me this advice

"The reason you are so tired is because you are fighting everything that is happening. It's happening anyway - stop fighting it."

It changed my whole outlook on everything. So I let it all go. Hardest thing to do, but you not if you take it one day at a time.

That is insane, dude. I cannot imagine. Would you mind sharing any details about how that came to be? I mean, I'm glad you stated things are cordial and friendly, but...ugh. That sounds like hell on earth, especially given LH19's assurances that we will all feel better once limbo is over (meaning divorce a lot of the time, but yeah...). I also miss the companionship aspect of being married and doing things together, which has fallen by the wayside for me.

To your question - what do I want to do? I stated earlier in the thread that I hoped to better myself, be a good and present father, and make changes that would benefit me in my next relationship. I just don't see W emerging from this MLC any time soon, or ever settling for not seeing if the grass is greener on the other side. Right now I'm resigned to the status quo for a while, unless W suddenly rents an apartment. Stated today, I don't plan to be the one to file or break anything that can't be put back together again (figuratively).

That's more or less where I am. I welcome your thoughts.

Doug -

First figure out what you want to do. Stand or no?

Then you make that decision again tomorrow.

Then the next day.

And the next. And the next. Etc.

And that's how you get to 4 years.

I'm not saying that will be what happens with you. Every person is different every relationship has different dynamics. You have kids, I don't Etc etc.

If I was you i would stop thinking about years from now and start re-reading the golden advice these vets are giving you. Take a breath. S isn't leaving soon, you said yourself. I would slow down and use the time to work on yourself. You can't use logic / your brain to solve your MR if your S wants out. So use it for something else.

And listen to LH he's also helped me tons.

As far as limbo being over, well life is limbo. Unless you get a memory wipe I don't see you ever not feeling something for an ex at some point down the road.

Best

IW

[Mach1]

IW.....I have asked that same question a couple times myself....

To summerize....

My wife did this so I did this...

My wife did this so I did that....

It's early still though....

Hopefully he can see how much focus is on her instead of himself....


I also did an in-home thing, for two and a half years....


Aloof, yet available, was my way....

Yeah, my attempts at detachment have left a lot to be desired. I don't know if I'll ever be in the clear while we're living in the same house.

Were those two-and-a-half years rough for you? Or were you sufficiently aloof and detached to the point where you cruised by? Did you and your W interact at all then?

Detachment isn't a place that you can walk to or anything....

Detaching is a state of mind...

It's a peaceful room in the middle of a Tornado...

A place for you to escape the howling winds surrounding you on a stormy night.

I would classify it as doing what is right, not to induce a reaction, rather regardless the reaction...

Where you can deal with your pretty little woman with the same emotion that you walk to the mailbox with.

She's spinning right now, no need for you both to spin....

Just try to dig into yourself, and deal with finding and being yourself.


Again.....Don't allow HER to define who YOU wanna be .....


The first 6 months or so, I was so over-ANAL-izing every little freakin thing my Ex did , that I forgot that I had a say in who I was too....



Once I figured that out....the rest was easy........er...


We essentially gave a great facade that nothing was wrong. She pretended to not have the first 2 affairs, once I knew for sure about them (they were over by the time I knew for sure), I gave her some space to work through it, by the time I found out about #3, I was done....



I didn't want to place a timeline on anything, however, I decided early on, that I would give myself two years BEFORE I made any decisions about my life with or without her.

Ironically, #3 corresponded with being at the end of my self imposed 2 year Mach project.

I spent those 2 years working on myself, how I communicated, how I listened, how I wanted to be and present myself to the world.

I learned what love was, what obligation was, dealt with my guilt, owned my half of the marital breakdown, and worked my ass off working toward forgiveness.

D, I spent so much time inside of my own head that I didn't have time to wonder WTF she was doing.....

Looking forward, it was painstaking....

Looking back ?

The best 2 years I ever had.... I won't do it again, however, I am thankful that I was able to find out who I am....


So I guess it's about perspective, and time spent, and what YOU decide to do with your time....


We did interact when we had to ..

Parenting, bills, schedule and such. She would talk when she felt the need, I would listen and validate. It didn't go much deeper than that, by her choice. She had a lot of anger that she hadn't worked through, or even realized that she had. Everything was normal in her world, and by her own standards...

Yet, the "shark eyes" gave her away every time....


Sooooo

You do have choices....you just gotta make them......

[Doug54]

Well, tomorrow is my anniversary - 16 years. Yeah, I already put 16 in my signature, but tomorrow is the day. What's the proper protocol here given the circumstances? I'm assuming nothing. I could see W maybe mentioning it, but there won't be any cards or gifts. Actually, when things were fine, she wasn't that big on an anniversary gift from W to husband. Which was fine.

Any thoughts are welcomed.

No gifts, no cards, no flowers. Avoid the temptation of a grand gesture to "show her you care" and "win her back". If she mentions it smile and say "same to you" and then go out and hit the gym or go out to lunch with a friend.

Also, be prepared for a "no win" situation. I.e., if you do something nice for the anniversary she'll use that as an opportunity to remind you she's done and you're simply not listening to her which is "proof" she's right to leave, and if you don't do something for it she'll use that as "proof" you don't care and validation she is right to leave you.

Thanks, B. I have nothing planned on the anniversary front. Funnily enough, the thought that keeps popping into my head is that since we're not separated, Anniversary #17 is going to happen as well since D can't go through until a year's separation w/children. Well, aside from death that is.

[Doug54]

Doug -

First figure out what you want to do. Stand or no?

Then you make that decision again tomorrow.

Then the next day.

And the next. And the next. Etc.

And that's how you get to 4 years.

I'm not saying that will be what happens with you. Every person is different every relationship has different dynamics. You have kids, I don't Etc etc.

If I was you i would stop thinking about years from now and start re-reading the golden advice these vets are giving you. Take a breath. S isn't leaving soon, you said yourself. I would slow down and use the time to work on yourself. You can't use logic / your brain to solve your MR if your S wants out. So use it for something else.

And listen to LH he's also helped me tons.

As far as limbo being over, well life is limbo. Unless you get a memory wipe I don't see you ever not feeling something for an ex at some point down the road.

Best

IW

Thanks for the feedback on your situation. As for me - I am standing by default. I have let go of the illusion (delusion?) that W will want to stay in the marriage. For now, the day-by-day approach certainly works. I doubt our younger two kids suspect anything. The older ones kind of know but aren't affected. W and I aren't discourteous around the house, though we're not falling over each other in conversation. From the standpoint of the kids having both mom and dad in the house, it's working for now.

I have some good book recommendations (reading Codependent No More right now), hit the gym with regularity, am reconnecting with some old friends, take the kids out often, and keep up with sports. Life isn't h3llish, though no one wants to live through the end of a marriage.

[Doug54]

The first 6 months or so, I was so over-ANAL-izing every little freakin thing my Ex did , that I forgot that I had a say in who I was too....


Once I figured that out....the rest was easy........er...


We essentially gave a great facade that nothing was wrong. She pretended to not have the first 2 affairs, once I knew for sure about them (they were over by the time I knew for sure), I gave her some space to work through it, by the time I found out about #3, I was done....


I didn't want to place a timeline on anything, however, I decided early on, that I would give myself two years BEFORE I made any decisions about my life with or without her.

Ironically, #3 corresponded with being at the end of my self imposed 2 year Mach project.

I spent those 2 years working on myself, how I communicated, how I listened, how I wanted to be and present myself to the world.

I learned what love was, what obligation was, dealt with my guilt, owned my half of the marital breakdown, and worked my ass off working toward forgiveness.

D, I spent so much time inside of my own head that I didn't have time to wonder WTF she was doing.....

Looking forward, it was painstaking....

Looking back ?

The best 2 years I ever had.... I won't do it again, however, I am thankful that I was able to find out who I am....


So I guess it's about perspective, and time spent, and what YOU decide to do with your time....


We did interact when we had to ..

Parenting, bills, schedule and such. She would talk when she felt the need, I would listen and validate. It didn't go much deeper than that, by her choice. She had a lot of anger that she hadn't worked through, or even realized that she had. Everything was normal in her world, and by her own standards...

Yet, the "shark eyes" gave her away every time....


Sooooo

You do have choices....you just gotta make them......

Dude, I thought you were like a simulation or a bot or something. Everything you posted in my thread sounded like a fortune cookie. Now I can see there's a real, breathing Mach1 walking around somewhere! Amazing.

I'm sorry you had to live through all that. Your EXW sounds like William H. Macy's wife in Boogie Nights (no offense - just the thought of 3 affairs...cripes). I can relate to the overanalyzing, though I've mostly conditioned myself to stop here in month #4. Like you mentioned, I want to improve my communication and response skills. I played a role in the marriage being where it is today, whether or not I want to insist that W was and is prime MLC material.

I can't imagine two years of this on my end. I know you posed the question to me if W was worth the wait, but I feel like things are trending downward. Not to say I'm living my life hinging on every word and action from W...just that the quality quotient of the marriage [censored] balls. Kind of like where you describe your wife talking if she felt the need, but not much deeper than that. We're not quite there yet, but hovering above such communication.

The choice I'm making, as I told Iron Will, is to stand for now and just try to take things day by day. The tenable nature of things for the kids also makes leaving difficult. I guess it's not torture in the house while I'm also trying to reinvent Doug...

[Ready2Change]

I have some good book recommendations (reading Codependent No More right now), hit the gym with regularity, am reconnecting with some old friends, take the kids out often, and keep up with sports. Life isn't h3llish, though no one wants to live through the end of a marriage.

How many women do you interact with each day? Do they find you attractive? Exciting? Do you make them laugh? Smile?

I am not looking for answers to the questions above. Just things for you to think about and decide to behave different. Just remember that the rules have changed.

As far as books, I have read the 4 agreements countless times. Each time I get something new from it. I am at a different point in my life and am a different person than I was in the past every time I read it. It is a quick read.


One of my Mantras- "Don't be boring"

Get a hair cut, get a massage, go buy some new clothes, get dressed up, go watch live music and have a great dinner and meet some interesting people. Be so busy you don't even have time to think about the lady that fired you as her husband. If that is not enough, add more things to the todo list.

[SteveLW]

Yeah you have young kids and at 43 you have lots of time to think about your future. Ride this puppy out and boink her if she wants to keep doing it. Just shows you are not a monster. Only a psycho would boink a monster right? Make the changes you need to make and enjoy the remaining 100% of the time you have with the kids. IHS gets easier once you officially wave the white flag and surrender to the unknown. You won’t feel like this forever and you will be happier in the long run.

Wanted to follow up on this one...

Definitely agree with LH on not rushing into anything due to the young kids and a lot of time, but in terms of continuing to have sex with her you better be really careful there. First, be safe from an STD perspective because I hate to say this but you can't be certain what she's done. Second, you better be absolutely sure you're 100% detached and have fully accepted the marriage might be over (I.e., "waved the white flag). Easier said than done when you're still having sex with the mother of your children. A lot of LBSs think they're detached and accepting, but then something that smacks them in the face and they realize they weren't. The sex can hurt your detachment and can be used as a way for her to manipulate you to keep you as a backup and to soften you up to get you to do what she wants in the separation/divorce.

If you can keep having sex and simply enjoy the physical act and know you're 100% detached and accepting, great...you do you. But easier said than done.

Just my $0.02.

As someone that ended up having a lot of sex in his situation, this advice is spot on. As we always say, being 100% sure she is not physical with anyone else is paramount! And then as BL said, if you cannot do AND still continue to work on detachment, then you need to be careful.

For me the sweet spot was to realize that she could walk at any minute, including 1 second after we had sex. That sex had no meaning related to her wanting a D. That it was just purely the physical act with little to no emotion behind it. In my case, it was really about her having a lot of pent up sexual energy due to her EAs with guys that were hundreds, or 1000s of miles away. AnotherStander and sandi (I believe) pointed out to me that likely she was fantasizing about her EAP while making love to me. That was a very sobering thought. One that did give me pause a few times.

But as BL said, the sex can, and for most LBS will, hurt your detachment. We've seen a lot of LBSs that have had sex throughout their situation with the WAS, some even while the WAS was sexually active with other people (SMH), and it is a very rare LBS that can do that and NOT attach significance to it.

BL is spot on with this post.

[Mach1]

Dude, I thought you were like a simulation or a bot or something. Everything you posted in my thread sounded like a fortune cookie. Now I can see there's a real, breathing Mach1 walking around somewhere! Amazing.

I'm sorry you had to live through all that. Your EXW sounds like William H. Macy's wife in Boogie Nights (no offense - just the thought of 3 affairs...cripes). I can relate to the overanalyzing, though I've mostly conditioned myself to stop here in month #4. Like you mentioned, I want to improve my communication and response skills. I played a role in the marriage being where it is today, whether or not I want to insist that W was and is prime MLC material.

I can't imagine two years of this on my end. I know you posed the question to me if W was worth the wait, but I feel like things are trending downward. Not to say I'm living my life hinging on every word and action from W...just that the quality quotient of the marriage [censored] balls. Kind of like where you describe your wife talking if she felt the need, but not much deeper than that. We're not quite there yet, but hovering above such communication.

The choice I'm making, as I told Iron Will, is to stand for now and just try to take things day by day. The tenable nature of things for the kids also makes leaving difficult. I guess it's not torture in the house while I'm also trying to reinvent Doug...

Yea....

I came to the boards in a different way....

Bomb was in '07...

I spent the first 8 months of my sitch just reading because I couldn't log in due to firewall schidt at work, and of course nothing at home with a live in....

I came home one night and my ex had taken the kiddos and went to visit family 6 hours away, so everything was pretty quiet for the first time in over 15 years...

I remember the feeling of " F this....if this is truly the plan for me"....

I remember going outside and screaming at God to give me every Fing thing he had, because I wanted to know my breaking point....

the next morning, I was reading through some threads and right in front of me was an email addy for JackThreeBeans, that if anyone needed to talk 'off boards' to please contact him....

That changed my life....

By the time I was able to post, there wasn't much going on in my life except the work on me....

Sooooo....

My first 4400 or so posts have been about helping others here....

And the reason I never had any threads here (until recently)...

Hopefully that has worked a little....

In my 14 years here, I've had the pleasure of helping a dozen or so marriages reconcile, yet better than that, I've helped many people reconcile with themselves...


I have found that with newcomers....Shorter bulleted responses go over better....

Typically there is an information overload, and their eyes gloss over with the longer more explanatory posts...

So short and to the point until the brain stops shakin around a bit....

Plus...you don't really need me to tell you how to live your everyday life.

Next thing you know, you will be posting here asking if you should buy Charmin or Angel Soft...F that...

I tend to post more philosophical stuff, and allow you to THINK, and come to your own conclusions about your life....

MLC theory...

WAS theory...

LBS theory....



What's the line Cadet ???


I couldn't imagine two years either....at that time....

Looking at two years when you are in it, isn't a pleasant thought....

IF you look at it as a whole, you will fail....

Just never eat an elephant whole...you eat it bite by bite...

However that was MY thing...doesn't have to be yours...

Yet you DO have to make a choice......

And stop allowing her to tell you who the F you are.....

[IronWill]

This ^^^

[Drew]

I have found that with newcomers....Shorter bulleted responses go over better....

Yeah, I tried that -- got told I was cruel.

Had to call in J3B for the gentler, more cuddling approach.

[Doug54]

As someone that ended up having a lot of sex in his situation, this advice is spot on. As we always say, being 100% sure she is not physical with anyone else is paramount! And then as BL said, if you cannot do AND still continue to work on detachment, then you need to be careful.

For me the sweet spot was to realize that she could walk at any minute, including 1 second after we had sex. That sex had no meaning related to her wanting a D. That it was just purely the physical act with little to no emotion behind it. In my case, it was really about her having a lot of pent up sexual energy due to her EAs with guys that were hundreds, or 1000s of miles away. AnotherStander and sandi (I believe) pointed out to me that likely she was fantasizing about her EAP while making love to me. That was a very sobering thought. One that did give me pause a few times.

But as BL said, the sex can, and for most LBS will, hurt your detachment. We've seen a lot of LBSs that have had sex throughout their situation with the WAS, some even while the WAS was sexually active with other people (SMH), and it is a very rare LBS that can do that and NOT attach significance to it.

BL is spot on with this post.

I remember reading one of your early threads and encountering the bolded part (above), and thinking about that in regards to my own situation. Yeah, it's not a pleasant thought, but whatever...what can you do?

Another thing I recall from probably the same thread, Steve, was when you got to a point where you weren't sure if you wanted the MR anymore yourself. I have had a surfeit of such thoughts myself recently - not actually putting real consideration towards being the one to leave, but an internal temperature check of marital satisfaction. And there's not much there. Like LH19 said, he was glad his EXW didn't actually waver in the face of her father's wrath, because that would mean he'd be stuck in a dead marriage today. I've been trying to gauge my detachment efforts from W by comparing interacting with her to a trip down to the mailbox (analogy courtesy of Mach1). I guess all this is to say that sex is losing any emotional significance...the last dying embers of the marriage are barely glowing.

[Doug54]

I came home one night and my ex had taken the kiddos and went to visit family 6 hours away, so everything was pretty quiet for the first time in over 15 years...

I remember the feeling of " F this....if this is truly the plan for me"....

I remember going outside and screaming at God to give me every Fing thing he had, because I wanted to know my breaking point....

the next morning, I was reading through some threads and right in front of me was an email addy for JackThreeBeans, that if anyone needed to talk 'off boards' to please contact him....

That changed my life....

Funny how things work out sometimes. Randomly grabbing DR off the shelf of my local library and then finding this board has done wonders for me in my situation. Not sure what state of mind I'd be in right now otherwise...still trying to cling to the MR? Having frequent relationship talks? Reading about the situations of others that have fully played out and getting direct advice addressed to me has been invaluable.

By the time I was able to post, there wasn't much going on in my life except the work on me....

Sooooo....

My first 4400 or so posts have been about helping others here....

And the reason I never had any threads here (until recently)...

Hopefully that has worked a little....

In my 14 years here, I've had the pleasure of helping a dozen or so marriages reconcile, yet better than that, I've helped many people reconcile with themselves...

Yes, you've been a lifesaver. I also like some of the ambiguous notes because they could be read either way - if I was desperate for "good news" to build upon, it could be construed that way as food for thought, or conversely, a gentle 2x4 for a reality check.

I have found that with newcomers....Shorter bulleted responses go over better....

Typically there is an information overload, and their eyes gloss over with the longer more explanatory posts...

So short and to the point until the brain stops shakin around a bit....

Plus...you don't really need me to tell you how to live your everyday life.

Next thing you know, you will be posting here asking if you should buy Charmin or Angel Soft...F that...

I tend to post more philosophical stuff, and allow you to THINK, and come to your own conclusions about your life....

MLC theory...

WAS theory...

LBS theory....

I don't discriminate between the helpfulness of bullets or long-winded life stories. As far as I'm concerned, anyone taking time out of their day to shoot me a thought in my thread is doing me a favor. The philosophical bites are certainly deeper and actionable in an abstract way. Kudos.

I couldn't imagine two years either....at that time....

Looking at two years when you are in it, isn't a pleasant thought....

IF you look at it as a whole, you will fail....

Just never eat an elephant whole...you eat it bite by bite...

However that was MY thing...doesn't have to be yours...

Yet you DO have to make a choice......

And stop allowing her to tell you who the F you are.....

Yes, day by day. But what choice are you referring to? Like an existential, "Get busy living or get busy dying"? Or more like choosing to stand or leave? Or live my life vs being stagnant?

[SteveLW]

As someone that ended up having a lot of sex in his situation, this advice is spot on. As we always say, being 100% sure she is not physical with anyone else is paramount! And then as BL said, if you cannot do AND still continue to work on detachment, then you need to be careful.

For me the sweet spot was to realize that she could walk at any minute, including 1 second after we had sex. That sex had no meaning related to her wanting a D. That it was just purely the physical act with little to no emotion behind it. In my case, it was really about her having a lot of pent up sexual energy due to her EAs with guys that were hundreds, or 1000s of miles away. AnotherStander and sandi (I believe) pointed out to me that likely she was fantasizing about her EAP while making love to me. That was a very sobering thought. One that did give me pause a few times.

But as BL said, the sex can, and for most LBS will, hurt your detachment. We've seen a lot of LBSs that have had sex throughout their situation with the WAS, some even while the WAS was sexually active with other people (SMH), and it is a very rare LBS that can do that and NOT attach significance to it.

BL is spot on with this post.

I remember reading one of your early threads and encountering the bolded part (above), and thinking about that in regards to my own situation. Yeah, it's not a pleasant thought, but whatever...what can you do?

Another thing I recall from probably the same thread, Steve, was when you got to a point where you weren't sure if you wanted the MR anymore yourself. I have had a surfeit of such thoughts myself recently - not actually putting real consideration towards being the one to leave, but an internal temperature check of marital satisfaction. And there's not much there. Like LH19 said, he was glad his EXW didn't actually waver in the face of her father's wrath, because that would mean he'd be stuck in a dead marriage today. I've been trying to gauge my detachment efforts from W by comparing interacting with her to a trip down to the mailbox (analogy courtesy of Mach1). I guess all this is to say that sex is losing any emotional significance...the last dying embers of the marriage are barely glowing.

Yeah I didn't bring that up for you to do anything, but so that you could see that sex for her is likely not the same as it is for you. At least if you are like most LBSs. Most LBSs see sex as a sign things are better or improving. The WAS sees it as a scratch to that itch. I had a counseling session with an anti-DB writer (not MWD), and I was telling her the situation where my W, in the middle of a late night R talk, had mentioned she wasn't attracted to me anymore. In fact, she even said she saw me in the same way as another guy we knew, that was not attractive to her at all. It stung. But then within 15 minutes I mentioned something about sex, and she actually said she wanted to! When I pushed her on it "Really??" (remember she had just compared me to this other guy that she found completely unattractive) she said "never mind!". This anti-D writer said "She is probably horny as ----!" So even though she found me unattractive, she was still wanting to have sex because whatever she was going through or doing had her horny.

As far as the instance where I was questioning wanting to stay in the marriage myself, that was nearly a year past BD, and 8 months into piecing and Ring. Things were actually going very well in the marriage, but I started to wonder if I had made a mistake in working to hard to save the marriage, rather than letting her pull the ripcord and ending it. I was a lot closer to walking away myself during that time.

[Traveler]

Hey Doug! How's your weekend coming along?

[Doug54]

Hey Doug! How's your weekend coming along?

Hey Traveler,

By the way, was that a reference to you in Ghostbusters before the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man appeared and they were like "The choice has been made; the Traveler has come"? That just popped into my head.

Not much to report. Had a pretty good weekend on the GAL front including several fun activities with the younger two kids. Wife has been running hot and cold. I think she's been stressed out about multiple things. She unloaded on me earlier and tried to slip a line in about me "never wanting the kids." I couldn't meekly validate that and had to say "That's not true." Interestingly, after that conversation (more like tirade) I had left with the kids (as planned) and she texted me "I'm sorry I was rude" which is definitely out of character during this MLC...her typical mode is selfish AF these days.

Trying to just take one day at a time. How was your weekend?

[Valeska19]

Not much to report. Had a pretty good weekend on the GAL front including several fun activities with the younger two kids. Wife has been running hot and cold. I think she's been stressed out about multiple things. She unloaded on me earlier and tried to slip a line in about me "never wanting the kids." I couldn't meekly validate that and had to say "That's not true." Interestingly, after that conversation (more like tirade) I had left with the kids (as planned) and she texted me "I'm sorry I was rude" which is definitely out of character during this MLC...her typical mode is selfish AF these days.

Did you validate anything she said?

What did you say when she apologized?

[Doug54]

Did you validate anything she said?

What did you say when she apologized?

I did not engage at all like old Doug would have. I quietly allowed her to let off steam and nodded a few times. It was more of an overall, emotional rip job in which her mood and state of mind (overwhelmed?) definitely factored in. So, was it textbook verbal validation from me? Not quite. But it was certainly a 180 from how I would respond to that sort of thing in the past.

She apologized by text about 5 minutes after I left with the kids. That outing had already been planned, so it wasn't like I stormed out or anything. I simply wrote back "It's ok" and left it at that.

I think she was able to get several things done yesterday (in which I was out having fun with the younger kids for probably 5 hours total) and seems in a better mood today. However, I still don't really think my overall situation can be resolved without W getting a taste of life without me. Just gonna have to tread water since I don't plan to leave the home.

[LH19]

However, I still don't really think my overall situation can be resolved without W getting a taste of life without me.

Do you know when you are 100% most likely to reconcile effectively?

When you no longer care if you do or not.

That's the honest and sad truth. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.

Just gonna have to tread water since I don't plan to leave the home.

Yeah there is a famous saying around here. "Things need to get worse before they get better".

[Mach1]

Did you validate anything she said?

What did you say when she apologized?

I did not engage at all like old Doug would have. I quietly allowed her to let off steam and nodded a few times. It was more of an overall, emotional rip job in which her mood and state of mind (overwhelmed?) definitely factored in. So, was it textbook verbal validation from me? Not quite. But it was certainly a 180 from how I would respond to that sort of thing in the past.

She apologized by text about 5 minutes after I left with the kids. That outing had already been planned, so it wasn't like I stormed out or anything. I simply wrote back "It's ok" and left it at that.

I think she was able to get several things done yesterday (in which I was out having fun with the younger kids for probably 5 hours total) and seems in a better mood today. However, I still don't really think my overall situation can be resolved without W getting a taste of life without me. Just gonna have to tread water since I don't plan to leave the home.

Actually ??

It's good that you have made yourself "safe" enough for her to vent...

Possibly work on the "it's ok" and replace it with "Thank you for sharing your thoughts..."

The better mood....???

Part of the bitchc switch thing....

They vent / spew / rant....

And within a few hours, it's like nothing happened and more than likely don't/won't remember...

It tends to be 150% pure raw emotion that is coming out....years of pent up anger without resolution and feelings that haven't been worked through or processed.

Keep being a safe place, as long as it isn't venomous...

Have you read the 5 LL's yet ?

Don't remember if you have or not...

[Doug54]

Do you know when you are 100% most likely to reconcile effectively?

When you no longer care if you do or not.

That's the honest and sad truth. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.

Just gonna have to tread water since I don't plan to leave the home.

Yeah there is a famous saying around here. "Things need to get worse before they get better".

LH,

I re-read your initial situation thread and am convinced I see many similarities between your W and mine, from the cake-eating to the lack of being grounded in reality to the distance and doing most things separate. It's not a reassuring outlook but I'm glad to have a dose of reality on how these things often play out, rather than meandering around cluelessly.

As far as things getting worse before they get better...yeah, probably. I wonder what form that will take. I know for you, you said it was undoubtedly over when she told her parents. I know in my situation right now, W knows I won't "walk" because I've stated I'm not leaving the house.

[Doug54]

Actually ??

It's good that you have made yourself "safe" enough for her to vent...

Possibly work on the "it's ok" and replace it with "Thank you for sharing your thoughts..."

The better mood....???

Part of the bitchc switch thing....

They vent / spew / rant....

And within a few hours, it's like nothing happened and more than likely don't/won't remember...

It tends to be 150% pure raw emotion that is coming out....years of pent up anger without resolution and feelings that haven't been worked through or processed.

Keep being a safe place, as long as it isn't venomous...

Have you read the 5 LL's yet ?

Don't remember if you have or not...

Appreciate the feedback, Mach. I've seen a correlation between how W seems to feel overall / how much she has on her plate, and how she acts towards me. Good mood / low stress = more outgoing & more interactions with Doug. She tends to curb the attitude with others even if she's not feeling it, i.e. she'll bite her tongue towards the older kids rather than let her mood dictate the interaction.

The part I bolded above is spot-on. I mean, there's no question. However, I feel like it's too little, too late for the MR. I don't plan to slam shut any doors with words or actions, but it really feels like W has moved on. But, I feel like I've gotten a lot better in dealing with things since I read DR and found this board, and I have IC today for the first time in three weeks (therapist was out of town). So there's that.

[Traveler]

I did not engage at all like old Doug would have. I quietly allowed her to let off steam and nodded a few times. It was more of an overall, emotional rip job in which her mood and state of mind (overwhelmed?) definitely factored in. So, was it textbook verbal validation from me? Not quite. But it was certainly a 180 from how I would respond to that sort of thing in the past.

Keep working at it! I agree it's great she could feel safe sharing with you.

it really feels like W has moved on

Consider if she still has feelings to vent at you, she hasn't completely moved on from you.

[Traveler]

PS - Doug, time for you to begin a new thread and link it to this one!

[LH19]

I re-read your initial situation thread and am convinced I see many similarities between your W and mine, from the cake-eating to the lack of being grounded in reality to the distance and doing most things separate. It's not a reassuring outlook but I'm glad to have a dose of reality on how these things often play out, rather than meandering around cluelessly.

I would rather be divorced 1,000 times over than living how you are living right now. Being reminded constantly how you are not good enough is soul sucking. Just know your feelings right now are temporary.

As far as things getting worse before they get better...yeah, probably. I wonder what form that will take. I know for you, you said it was undoubtedly over when she told her parents. I know in my situation right now, W knows I won't "walk" because I've stated I'm not leaving the house.

I have friends who have been living this way for years.

[Doug54]

New thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2936955&#Post2936955

[Mach1]

Appreciate the feedback, Mach. I've seen a correlation between how W seems to feel overall / how much she has on her plate, and how she acts towards me. Good mood / low stress = more outgoing & more interactions with Doug. She tends to curb the attitude with others even if she's not feeling it, i.e. she'll bite her tongue towards the older kids rather than let her mood dictate the interaction.

The part I bolded above is spot-on. I mean, there's no question. However, I feel like it's too little, too late for the MR. I don't plan to slam shut any doors with words or actions, but it really feels like W has moved on. But, I feel like I've gotten a lot better in dealing with things since I read DR and found this board, and I have IC today for the first time in three weeks (therapist was out of town). So there's that.

The mood is dictated also by who is around at that time...

The person that she is angriest at....is Doug....or so she thinks...

She will walk away from these conversations wondering who the heck you are, and why did she just tell you that ?

For now, she may curb the conversations with the kids , however.....

Without you, she would have never had kids.....

Without you, she would be happier...

Without you, the world is flat...

Without you, the tire wouldn't have went flat on the Pope mobile...

blah, blah, blah.....BS....

Try to listen when she comes to you, try to validate, and thank her for her thoughts.

When she spews, walk away and let her know that when she calms, you will once again listen...

She is still there, and she will say that she is trying, and because that doesn't look like what YOU think it should be, doesn't mean it's not happening....

Remember her truth and your truth ? Same thing....

All of that anger and frustration HAS to come out before anything can be any different for the future...






The decision that I spoke of, is the one you are dancing around....

The decision to choose you...


And you can say that you already have, although there is still a LOT of you, basing your decisions on what you think that she may or may not do......

And that Doug, is allowing her to define you....

Don't tell me when you do, I will be able to tell by where your thoughts are...




So third grade dating game here....

Check yes or no....


Is it too late ?

___yes ___no

Has she moved on ?

___yes ___no

Is she in control of your thoughts, feelings, and actions ??

___yes ___no


Does she get to write the ending of YOUR book ?

___yes ___no



What are you gonna discuss with your IC ???


Because we as humans, really do work toward our goals.....



Oh, and 5LL ??