Here is a link to take you to my last thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=63096&Number=2907398#Post2907398One day at a time.
I know I shouldn't talk to my mom about this stuff, but she's great. Reminds me of a combination of people here. She says that my spouse needs to grow up (sounds like LH), that he trauma from the past is no excuse and that she has blamed me for all of it though its not my fault, that I need to stop apologizing, and that sometimes people just need to take responsibility for themselves.
I'm heading to see my parents with the kids in two weeks. I can't wait to see my parents, I could use the support and they are great.
Scotty B,
I would be very careful putting the blame 100% on your W. I can promise you that you are not in innocent bystander in your marriage. I truly believe you are remorseful and have done everything in your power to keep your family together. Sometimes too much damage has been done and the only thing left to do is to give them time and space. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the “fading effect bias”? People tend to forget negative things quicker then the positive things. So in time she will more then likely remember more of the good things about your marriage. There is no timeline for when this may happen. Just keep moving forward.
I know I shouldn't talk to my mom about this stuff, but she's great. Reminds me of a combination of people here. She says that my spouse needs to grow up (sounds like LH), that he trauma from the past is no excuse and that she has blamed me for all of it though its not my fault, that I need to stop apologizing, and that sometimes people just need to take responsibility for themselves.
Just ask her not to try and intervene. I don't know how much she talks to your W, but you absolutely do not want her sharing things with W that you've talked to her about. Your W will see it as you "rallying the troops against her" and it will just make her very angry.
AS “ Your very presence irritates me” made me spit coffee on my computer lol. Thx!
Hahaha! It's really perfect though, isn't it? It really sums up how most WAS's feel about the LBS after BD. The harder the LBS tries the more the WAS feels this way.
I would be very careful putting the blame 100% on your W. I can promise you that you are not in innocent bystander in your marriage. I truly believe you are remorseful and have done everything in your power to keep your family together. Sometimes too much damage has been done and the only thing left to do is to give them time and space. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the “fading effect bias”? People tend to forget negative things quicker then the positive things. So in time she will more then likely remember more of the good things about your marriage. There is no timeline for when this may happen. Just keep moving forward.
Exactly. The idea of DB'ing isn't to dazzle her with a huge demonstration of how much you've changed. It's to fade into the background while she goes on her journey. She won't see you as not "THE problem" until you can remove yourself from the equation. When she discovers her life isn't nirvana, and that she can't blame you for it anymore, THEN she might look back and THAT is when your changes and 180's will matter. If she looks back and sees YOU-2.0 looking good and feeling good and enjoying life, then her curiosity will be piqued. She may question her choice to leave you.
Exactly. The idea of DB'ing isn't to dazzle her with a huge demonstration of how much you've changed. It's to fade into the background while she goes on her journey. She won't see you as not "THE problem" until you can remove yourself from the equation. When she discovers her life isn't nirvana, and that she can't blame you for it anymore, THEN she might look back and THAT is when your changes and 180's will matter. If she looks back and sees YOU-2.0 looking good and feeling good and enjoying life, then her curiosity will be piqued. She may question her choice to leave you.
This here is gold. Absolutely huge nugget. This should be engraved in every LBS's forehead (in mirror writing of course). I am 100% certain if every and each one LBS could internalize this paragraph, they would be far better off. Awesome stuff AS.
I had a beer with a friend last night who has gone through similar stuff and is now divorced. He actually hired a PI to follow his spouse when she went out of town for a work trip.
The PI sent pictures of her with a guy, hugging and kissing him. My buddy asked if he was sure that it was an affair and the PI said, dude, are you serious. Reminds me of when my wife had what I’ve called her EA and the dudes wife came to my office to show me a video of the two of them in the backseat of my car. Or the time I caught him running out of my house when I got home. I think I’m just in denial. She always said nothing happened, but she has also shown the ability to lie when it fits her narrative.
Had a great talk with my friend but at the same time it was a bit devastating. He took his wife back, caught her a second time and then it went to divorce.
Also, got home last night - and I low I shouldn’t care but this stuff hurts - my wife bought and wore a push-up bra for the first time in 17 years.
She also went shopping and bought me stuff - really freaking weird. All and all a pretty solid mind job.
Scotty B,
Yep your brain is designed to protect you so it will often go to denial for that protection.
As for your friend who took the w back for her do it again it's very common when there is no remorse and work done in IC to get to the root of the problem. WMBD took his W back to easily and after a brief recon she is back to the same BS.
Best to stay out of her stuff as much as possible. We joke around here that after BD all the granny panties go in the garbage lol. Just remember you should be updating your boxer or briefs. That $hit matters too lol. You've had a long tough long road and you are still just around the first mile of a marathon.
I promise you it gets easier Scotty B.
Finding Sex toys in your house and W getting a boob job are things that might be waiting around the corner.
If you didn't already, go get new underwear and perfume.
I love the advise on the new underwear. That cracked me up. I can actually see the value in that - its subtle.
LH - Her bra was just laying in our walk in closet. It was not a challenge to notice. I also often fold the laundry so at some point that one was going to be seen.
I watched a video on “fading effect bias”. I thought that was interesting. Kind of hard to do when you are living with someone, but I suppose this is why I'm getting advice to try not to be around. Unfortunately she seems to just get angry about that.
Scotty B ,
Yeah I wasn’t implying you’re inspecting her delicates from a snooping nature. Just saying you probably don’t want to go there if at all possible.
So back to the laugh I had at AS quote, I was talking to my friend who is divorcing soon and he said his w is miserable all the time. I said why? He response was “the fact that I’m breathing”. Meaning no matter what you do she’s going to angry.
Scotty B I hope you really understand the timeline you are up against. She’s not going to go through all of this, put her kids and family through all of this and come running back home in 6 months. This is a 2-5 year minimum journey for her.
LH - She'll be lucky if I'm still here. I'm working on my confidence and trying to build my self-respect back up. Dobson's book was really good, though I haven't finished it - I'm about half done. I know I can find someone that would appreciate me as a husband, father, and man. I'm a solid guy. She has beat me up for a long time and has shown a propensity to lie and hide things. I'd work with her and I'd take her back, but once she is gone and as time passes, and I've already taken my kids through hell, I'll be hard pressed (I think).
Finding Sex toys in your house and W getting a boob job are things that might be waiting around the corner.
If you didn't already, go get new underwear and perfume.
So true. The secret sex toys were one of my little discoveries. I got the "I was trying to see if it could help us" line of crap
Finding Sex toys in your house and W getting a boob job are things that might be waiting around the corner.
If you didn't already, go get new underwear and perfume.
So true. The secret sex toys were one of my little discoveries. I got the "I was trying to see if it could help us" line of crap
Steve I thought all your Ws affairs were EAs. I must have misunderstood.
LH - She'll be lucky if I'm still here. I'm working on my confidence and trying to build my self-respect back up. Dobson's book was really good, though I haven't finished it - I'm about half done. I know I can find someone that would appreciate me as a husband, father, and man. I'm a solid guy. She has beat me up for a long time and has shown a propensity to lie and hide things. I'd work with her and I'd take her back, but once she is gone and as time passes, and I've already taken my kids through hell, I'll be hard pressed (I think).
I agree Scotty. I think I subconsciously stood for awhile after my divorce but she crossed a line with me by dating a dude I know so that ship has sailed. Plus you’ll find you may now be interested in a different kind of woman. You’re not the same person you were when you met your wife. No need for you to burn any bridges until you figure what you want out of life moving forward.
I'm Love Must Be Tough and I'm struck by the section where the author has a conversation with 4 people who are divorced who all had spouses that had affairs. Its interesting to me that all the people I can think of first hand who are divorced had to deal with a spouse who had an affair. In the author's conversation he asked about their kids. Its heartbreaking. Almost all the kids had to deal with depression and its effects in different ways. I just can't believe a parent would do this to their kids. It blows my mind.
So my wife sent me a separation agreement today and the key points that relate to our conversation with the kids. She titled that one "Changing / Not Changing". She wanted me to review it and then discuss it later. I made some edits.
I’m confused. She title some items she is not changing?
Its interesting to me that all the people I can think of first hand who are divorced had to deal with a spouse who had an affair. In the author's conversation he asked about their kids. Its heartbreaking. Almost all the kids had to deal with depression and its effects in different ways.
Interesting. I know many single parents--seriously dated three--and affairs rarely come up. I think most parents face "teenage problems", but I only know a few single parents with depressed kids. Doesn't seem the norm. I don't think where you'll be in 5 years is as bleak as it sounds like you're imagining.
Here you go, this is the Changing / Not Changing list:
Not Changing
Mom and Dad are still your mom and dad
Your brother is still your brother. Sister is still your sister.
We are still a family
Both parents will be at your activities
Mom will still take Diana to tutoring
Dad will still take you snowboarding
This is not your fault.
This will be hard. We are going to go through some tough times and so when we are down, let’s just be honest and say “Hey, today I’m struggling. Don’t bug me, leave me alone. Or I really need your support today.” Our doors are alway open and it's okay to be sad, or mad, or to feel any of your feelings.
Changing
Two homes
Thanksgiving this year will be with Dad
Christmas in MN will be with Mom
Hi Scott,
"Both parents will be at your activities." - Interesting idea. I haven't seen that one before. I choose what goes down during my custody period, and my ex chooses what goes down during her custody period.
I see some cans of worms. Consider how you would meet this promise given RustyMom's latest update where her school is only allowing one parent at sporting events, or how you'd explain your absence at Christmas activities in MN, or that you may later prefer to go to half of soccer games instead of seeing her new boyfriend hanging out with the coach and actively rooting for your kid every time you go.
CW - Interesting takes. The more important document is the separation agreement. I hate to do it but your feedback on the other was so good I'm going to post that for feedback. This document is meant to govern the relationship until the divorce is final - It was her idea from her Divorce Coach.
Goal/Purpose of Separation:
To give space to each other to move through this process as peacefully and compassionately as possible.
Duration of this agreement:
1. 6 months with review
2. Check-in at 90 days
Living Arrangements:
Scott will remain in the family home.
WAW will find alternative living arrangements.
Kids:
1. We will put the kids’ best interest first and not our own wants/needs.
2. Neither parent will pit the kids against the other parent. We will always try to be as respectful to the other parent as possible and answer questions honestly and help the kids to feel secure during this time of transition.
3. Kids will live between 2 homes.
4. WAW will handle all of the kids’ activities, homework, and care during weekdays. WAW will take child to tutoring on Mondays. - On Scott’s days he will pick the kids up after school and be home for them.
5. Parent A will have the kids Monday and Tuesday and every other weekend. Parent B will have the children Wednesday and Thursday and every other weekend. - Transitions will occur at school. The parent that has the kids on Tuesday night will be expected to get the kids to school on Wednesday. The parent that has the kids on Thursday will be expected to get the kids to school Friday. The parent that has the children on Sunday will be expected to get the kids to school on Monday. If kids stuff needs to move from one house to the other, the parent will drop the child’s stuff off in a designated location at the other parents home - potentially a garage or on the porch.
6. Either parent may communicate with kids via phone, email, or text, even when away, so as to stay in touch with the kids and reassure them that they are there for them.
7. We will be honest with our children, but they do not have to know the intimate details of what happened inside of our marriage.
8. If school closes due to COVID, WAW will handle the remote learning. If WAW has a job at that time, this plan will be reevaluated. - Scott will take his days in this case. This plan can be re-evaluated and discussed.
9. Both parents will attend kid activities.
10. The other parent will have the first option to watch the kids if they will be left alone for longer than 1 hour. - 2 hours, this gives flexibility for workouts.
11. Scott and the kids will travel for Thanksgiving 2020.
12. WAW and the kids will travel for a time period over Christmas yet to be determined and communicated with Scott. The kids will be home for Christmas Eve and Christmas morning.
13. We will tell the kids about our separation plan on 11/6/2020.
14. For the first six month of the year (based on the County Holiday Schedule) Scott will get New Year’s, President’s Day, Memorial Day. WAW will get MLK day, Easter, Fourth of July. The County schedule provides transition times for Holidays. This helps resolve potential conflicts. WAW gets kids Birthdays in Odd Years. Scott will get even years. WAW gets Mother’s Day, Scott gets father’s day.
Communication with each other:
1. We will only speak with each other as needed, so that we each have space during this time.
2. If there is a family emergency (kid in hospital, etc.), we will let each other know immediately with a text or a call.
3. We will communicate several days prior to the change of shift for the weekends, to inform each other of kids’ activities, etc. WAW will write up kids’ activity schedules for the weekend and we will talk on the phone or in person to discuss.
4. At the end of the weekends, we will discuss what happened with the kids, etc., that weekend and take care of any necessary communications re: kids, pets, house, etc.
House:
1. Kids’ chores — We will remind kids of issues regarding their homework and chores depending upon what’s due and what day of week is affected.
2. Maintenance issues — If a maintenance issue arises on the couple’s primary home, we will discuss and come to agreement on how to best handle it, such as whether to fix it ourselves or call someone to fix it.
3. Pets — child will decide which house her fish is at.
Work:
1. Scott will continue to work, as normal. No significant job changes will occur. Commuting will continue as needed in order to perform his/her job, except for times scheduled to be at home with the kids.
2. WAW will actively be looking for a job.
Finances:
1. There will be no changes to finances. <Insert Name> will still pay <Insert name of bill> bill.
Joint bills will continue to be paid out of the joint account.
2. Neither of us will run up unexpected debt or spend more than usual, unless there’s a medical emergency situation.
3. The additional living expenses of the spouse who moves out of the primary home will be paid from the joint account.
4. Both spouses will have full access to all jointly held bank accounts and credit cards (including passwords) during the separation.
5. We will work with our mediator to determine a long-term financial plan.
Conflict Resolution:
1. If conflict does arise during the separation, and a mutual agreement cannot be solved over email or text message, a short face-to-face meeting between us will be held at a public place (library or hotel lobby).
2. If mutual agreements cannot be reached on any subject, we can hire a mutually agreed upon family mediator before either of us engages with a lawyer.
Spouse Signature/Date
____________________________________________
Scotty B,
I’m confused as to is this a separation agreement or talking points for telling the kids?
Hi Scott,
I guess I'm missing the big picture. I don't know why you would you sign a document stating your goal is divorce (when you've said it's not) and limiting your options. Context helps--did she offer you something big, or your attorney reviewed it and deemed it in your best interest, or.. Nice Guy Syndrome?
Hi Scott,
My quick 2 cents:
1/2/3/6/7 all typical statements.
4/8- do you think you should be more active in the homework?
5 -The important part of the agreement is the parenting time. It looks to be 50/50. Do you think this split is fair?
9 replace "will" with "may" This is how my agreement was stated. During my parenting time, I brought the kids to activities. Mother could show up if she wanted. Reverse during her parenting time.
10. I love this line.
11/12/14- get an odd/even year agreement. This year the way written. Next year the opposite. Clarifying the start and end times (or length) would help.
I would get more opinions on the financial bullet points.
Remember that this is laying the foundation toward a D. The more fair and equal things you can agree on, the less is will cost in legal if paying lawyers.
Amor Fati
stockdale paradox
The first document was telling the kids. The second document was for us to decide on how we would manage things during the separation and before the divorce.
CW - This is something she came up with so that we had clarity. I believe her move out date is 12/1. This is basically a document that sets the stage for our relationship from that point forward. The fact she put in writing that she will be getting a job was pretty big for me.
I don't like the overall direction, but my feet are kind of being held to the fire, I need to do the best I can do.
Here we go Scotty B:
Kids 1 made me laugh out loud. If this was the case you wouldn't be getting divorced.
Kids 4 seems ridiculous. Like you can't handle it.
Kids 7 of course she doesn't want the kids to know about the A
Kids 9 does that even have to be in there? Last I checked it's a free country
Communication 1 seems odd to me
Communication 3 seems like too much to me covered in 1
Communication 4 same thing as 3
Finances 3 I would want more detail. Are you paying her mortgage and expenses?
Conflict Resolution 1 this made me lol. We can't come to an agreement so let's go shout at each other at a library lol or get a hotel room and have some hate sex lol.
What also [censored] is since she doesn't work you are paying for her divorce coach. Most of this seems nonsensical to me. I definitely would not sign without having a lawyer look at it.
Not to be a neggy nelly but work 2 means nothing. Just ask Unchen.
I really don’t understand this stuff. It’s 9:50p; she was obviously irritated with me tonight, but never said anything. When the kids went to bed, I said I was going to bed too and I could tell she was just pissed. I don’t know what to do with that. I guess i just ignore it? Normally i would feed into it and try to figure out what was bothering her.
It was either something with my replies to her separation agreement or a joke i made to my son about how he cleans the dishes like his grandpa gordy (her dad) who always did it fast and always had to rewatch them. When I said that to him I noticed her tense up. Anyhow, i just decided to go to bed as opposed to digging into it.
Water off the duck's back. Just let it slide, like the water from the duck's back. No point in engaging her in conversation that will most likely end up in a feud. HeII, even in the best of marriages the W gets pissed from time to time, and poking her is never a good idea.
LH made some excellent points. At any case, do not sign anything without your L taking a look first.
I am not comfortable with your W getting her place and it being paid from a joint account with no cap on it. She just might rent a Beverl hills mansion.
And I say heII no to the passwords and the joint accounts. I have heard too many horror stories about depleted joint accounts. And rest assured your W will be wanting to furnish her new love nest, and it sure as heII won't be second hand furniture. Talk to your L about possible temporary division of funds in the joint accounts. Also the wording "Neither of us will run up unexpected debt or spend more than usual, unless there’s a medical emergency situation." seems too vague for my comfort. REst assured she will interpret it her way. I would move my half of funds to a new account that she would have no access to. Again, NEVER do it without consulting a lawyer first.
I really don’t understand this stuff. It’s 9:50p; she was obviously irritated with me tonight, but never said anything. When the kids went to bed, I said I was going to bed too and I could tell she was just pissed. I don’t know what to do with that. I guess i just ignore it? Normally i would feed into it and try to figure out what was bothering her.
It was either something with my replies to her separation agreement or a joke i made to my son about how he cleans the dishes like his grandpa gordy (her dad) who always did it fast and always had to rewatch them. When I said that to him I noticed her tense up. Anyhow, i just decided to go to bed as opposed to digging into it.
Sounds like you are still trying to figure it out.......
She can have a mood. Who cares? It’s her problem. And hey, might have nothing to do with you. Might have everything to do with you. But either way, it’s not for you to figure out or fix and who really cares?
I really don’t understand this stuff. It’s 9:50p; she was obviously irritated with me tonight, but never said anything. When the kids went to bed, I said I was going to bed too and I could tell she was just pissed. I don’t know what to do with that. I guess i just ignore it? Normally i would feed into it and try to figure out what was bothering her.
It was either something with my replies to her separation agreement or a joke i made to my son about how he cleans the dishes like his grandpa gordy (her dad) who always did it fast and always had to rewatch them. When I said that to him I noticed her tense up. Anyhow, i just decided to go to bed as opposed to digging into it.
Sounds like you are still trying to figure it out.......
She can have a mood. Who cares? It’s her problem. And hey, might have nothing to do with you. Might have everything to do with you. But either way, it’s not for you to figure out or fix and who really cares?
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I really don’t understand this stuff. It’s 9:50p; she was obviously irritated with me tonight, but never said anything. When the kids went to bed, I said I was going to bed too and I could tell she was just pissed. I don’t know what to do with that. I guess i just ignore it? Normally i would feed into it and try to figure out what was bothering her.
It was either something with my replies to her separation agreement or a joke i made to my son about how he cleans the dishes like his grandpa gordy (her dad) who always did it fast and always had to rewatch them. When I said that to him I noticed her tense up. Anyhow, i just decided to go to bed as opposed to digging into it.
Not your chickens, not your farm.
"Normally i would feed into it and try to figure out what was bothering her." Great, 180 on this! Stop trying to fix her/it.
Here we go Scotty B:
Kids 1 made me laugh out loud. If this was the case you wouldn't be getting divorced.
Kids 4 seems ridiculous. Like you can't handle it.
Kids 7 of course she doesn't want the kids to know about the A
Kids 9 does that even have to be in there? Last I checked it's a free country
Communication 1 seems odd to me
Communication 3 seems like too much to me covered in 1
Communication 4 same thing as 3
Finances 3 I would want more detail. Are you paying her mortgage and expenses?
Conflict Resolution 1 this made me lol. We can't come to an agreement so let's go shout at each other at a library lol or get a hotel room and have some hate sex lol.
What also [censored] is since she doesn't work you are paying for her divorce coach. Most of this seems nonsensical to me. I definitely would not sign without having a lawyer look at it.
Not to be a neggy nelly but work 2 means nothing. Just ask Unchen.
LH - These comments cracked me up - No joke on number 1. Do I comment on that? Because I would to say exactly what you said and add that to the document.
No don’t mention it she knows. I have issues on the topic of telling the kids too. Your W is out there right now. WTF is a divorce coach anyway and how do I become one because I’m guessing they get paid a lot of money to make $hit up?
I have to admit not real comfortable with these types of agreements except to protect you for custody and finances should things get nasty. It is hard to separate finances and custody on paper without getting in the weeds. Finance and kids are what has to be nailed down. The rest probably holds no legal significance. I would talk to a lawyer because not putting enough detail in here could possibly hurt you later on and lead to disputes. Consider adding you are both fully mentally/physically fit to raise the children should any false accusations be possible later. Funding their education...etc. Don't sign and notarize this without legal review in your state.
I am not planning to sign it based on the input I've gotten. I think I'll say that we will plan to use it as a framework for our arrangement and that we can have our mediator review it if it is really important to my wife to have it signed. More or this document will set the basis for our first meeting with the mediator and ideally move us through that meeting effectively and quickly.
I have some concerns on the financial side, but at the same time I own a business that is equal to the entirety of the rest of my balance sheet. So everything is hers, all the money, all the assets, and I will probably have to take out a loan to buy the rest of the business from her after I give her everything.
I just hope I don't owe alimony on top and that I can manage the child support payments to a reasonable number. If hurting the kids weren't enough, the work I've done over the past five years, while under the constant pressure of her trying to divorce me and her having an affair, losing everything that I have accumulated in life and then owing her more because I've been successful in business, in spite of her -- lets just say that stings more than a little.
Removed link to another site that is not related to DB
Removed link/article not related to DB
Scott, I think you have this backwards. Most WAS are already convinced that D is the answer. They then go out and find things that agree with that assessment. Likely she didn't from her opinion after finding the article. She went out and found the article after she formed her opinion. It is called confirmation bias.
I can tell you that in my sitch, when my W was dead set on D, she avoided anything that said she shouldn't go for D, and was drawn to anything that said she should.
LH - Removed link to another site not related to DB
This is the kind of stuff you have to come up with to be a successful divorce coach. I feel ill sharing it it’s so self centered but wrapped up so nicely.
Yep. Is tough. If you listen to the podcast she talks about how women don’t understand their hormones, the female middle age brain and the Happiness U Curve and they seek these sources out for validation of their feelings. Your W needs a midlife transition coach and not a divorce coach.
LH - Removed link to another site not related to DB
This is the kind of stuff you have to come up with to be a successful divorce coach. I feel ill sharing it it’s so self centered but wrapped up so nicely.
Just read that article. Wow, I garuntee if my W read it she would 100% agree with it. A divorce coach wow.. I feel like some people will take advantage of anything for an easy buck.
Scott, I can't remember if you answered this before, but is there a legal separation agreement in your state? There isn't in Texas, so my XW and I wrote up an agreement and both signed it but it was not formally filed anywhere. HOWEVER, it DID end up being the basis of the divorce agreement, because it set the precedence on child visitation and such.
In my opinion, this needs to be a black and white no frills document outlining the visitation schedule, the division of assets, etc. Your document is kind of a strange mix of legal statements and emotional expectations that don't really belong together. Perhaps make it two separate documents, one outlining the legal aspects and the other outlining expectations (which are not legally binding). I've copied it below and struck out the items that look to me like expectations, and that I think should go in a separate document that doesn't get formally signed.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do suggest you absolutely review this with one before presenting it to your wife and solicit feedback and advice.
Goal/Purpose of Separation:
To give space to each other to move through this process as peacefully and compassionately as possible.
Duration of this agreement:
1. 6 months with review
2. Check-in at 90 days
Living Arrangements:
Scott will remain in the family home.
WAW will find alternative living arrangements.
Kids:
1. We will put the kids’ best interest first and not our own wants/needs.
2. Neither parent will pit the kids against the other parent. We will always try to be as respectful to the other parent as possible and answer questions honestly and help the kids to feel secure during this time of transition.
3. Kids will live between 2 homes.
4. WAW will handle all of the kids’ activities, homework, and care during weekdays. WAW will take child to tutoring on Mondays. - On Scott’s days he will pick the kids up after school and be home for them.
5. Parent A will have the kids Monday and Tuesday and every other weekend. Parent B will have the children Wednesday and Thursday and every other weekend. - Transitions will occur at school. The parent that has the kids on Tuesday night will be expected to get the kids to school on Wednesday. The parent that has the kids on Thursday will be expected to get the kids to school Friday. The parent that has the children on Sunday will be expected to get the kids to school on Monday. If kids stuff needs to move from one house to the other, the parent will drop the child’s stuff off in a designated location at the other parents home - potentially a garage or on the porch.
6. Either parent may communicate with kids via phone, email, or text, even when away, so as to stay in touch with the kids and reassure them that they are there for them.
7. We will be honest with our children, but they do not have to know the intimate details of what happened inside of our marriage.
8. If school closes due to COVID, WAW will handle the remote learning. If WAW has a job at that time, this plan will be reevaluated. - Scott will take his days in this case. This plan can be re-evaluated and discussed. (negotiate a plan and stick to it)
9. Both parents will attend kid activities.
10. The other parent will have the first option to watch the kids if they will be left alone for longer than 1 hour. - 2 hours, this gives flexibility for workouts.
11. Scott and the kids will travel for Thanksgiving 2020.
12. WAW and the kids will travel for a time period over Christmas yet to be determined and communicated with Scott. The kids will be home for Christmas Eve and Christmas morning.
13. We will tell the kids about our separation plan on 11/6/2020.
14. For the first six month of the year (based on the County Holiday Schedule) Scott will get New Year’s, President’s Day, Memorial Day. WAW will get MLK day, Easter, Fourth of July. The County schedule provides transition times for Holidays. This helps resolve potential conflicts. WAW gets kids Birthdays in Odd Years. Scott will get even years. WAW gets Mother’s Day, Scott gets father’s day.
Communication with each other:
1. We will only speak with each other as needed, so that we each have space during this time.
2. If there is a family emergency (kid in hospital, etc.), we will let each other know immediately with a text or a call.
3. We will communicate several days prior to the change of shift for the weekends, to inform each other of kids’ activities, etc. WAW will write up kids’ activity schedules for the weekend and we will talk on the phone or in person to discuss.
4. At the end of the weekends, we will discuss what happened with the kids, etc., that weekend and take care of any necessary communications re: kids, pets, house, etc.
House:
1. Kids’ chores — We will remind kids of issues regarding their homework and chores depending upon what’s due and what day of week is affected.
2. Maintenance issues — If a maintenance issue arises on the couple’s primary home, we will discuss and come to agreement on how to best handle it, such as whether to fix it ourselves or call someone to fix it.
3. Pets — child will decide which house her fish is at.
Work:
1. Scott will continue to work, as normal. No significant job changes will occur. Commuting will continue as needed in order to perform his/her job, except for times scheduled to be at home with the kids.
2. WAW will actively be looking for a job.
Finances:
1. There will be no changes to finances. <Insert Name> will still pay <Insert name of bill> bill.
Joint bills will continue to be paid out of the joint account.
2. Neither of us will run up unexpected debt or spend more than usual, unless there’s a medical emergency situation.
3. The additional living expenses of the spouse who moves out of the primary home will be paid from the joint account.
4. Both spouses will have full access to all jointly held bank accounts and credit cards (including passwords) during the separation.
5. We will work with our mediator to determine a long-term financial plan.
Conflict Resolution:
1. If conflict does arise during the separation, and a mutual agreement cannot be solved over email or text message, a short face-to-face meeting between us will be held at a public place (library or hotel lobby).
2. If mutual agreements cannot be reached on any subject, we can hire a mutually agreed upon family mediator before either of us engages with a lawyer.
Again, I'm not saying the struck comments are bad and should be deleted, I'm just suggesting they be part of a separate unsigned document of informal expectations.
Also I highly recommend you split all finances ASAP. No joint credit cards, no joint bank account. Come to an agreement on a dollar amount that you will transfer to her biweekly or monthly or whatever. She pays all her bills and credit card debt out of that. You pay your bills and such separately. This is important for a number of reasons, the biggest being that she will feel that you are controlling and manipulating her through money if you don't separate everything. There will be constant arguments over CC purchases and such, I've seen it happen so many times before. If separation is what she wants then separate the finances too.
Scott, I think you have this backwards. Most WAS are already convinced that D is the answer. They then go out and find things that agree with that assessment. Likely she didn't from her opinion after finding the article. She went out and found the article after she formed her opinion. It is called confirmation bias.
^^^YES this, absolutely. They also surround themselves with enablers. They may ditch long-time friends and even family members because they encourage them to reconcile, and take on all new "party" friends, many of whom are often also going through separations and divorces.
LH - here is the article that my wife read that convinced her the divorce was the answer
Scott, I think you have this backwards. Most WAS are already convinced that D is the answer. They then go out and find things that agree with that assessment. Likely she didn't from her opinion after finding the article. She went out and found the article after she formed her opinion. It is called confirmation bias.
I can tell you that in my sitch, when my W was dead set on D, she avoided anything that said she shouldn't go for D, and was drawn to anything that said she should.
Steve, you are absolutely right. I'm familiar with the concept of confirmation bias and that is exactly what this is.
LH - Removed link to another site not related to DB
This is the kind of stuff you have to come up with to be a successful divorce coach. I feel ill sharing it it’s so self centered but wrapped up so nicely.
Yep. Is tough. If you listen to the podcast she talks about how women don’t understand their hormones, the female middle age brain and the Happiness U Curve and they seek these sources out for validation of their feelings. Your W needs a midlife transition coach and not a divorce coach.
I listened to the podcast and I actually sent it to my wife after you mentioned it. That was several weeks ago and was a part of my last stand. On the same day I sent her an article about the stages of marriage and pointed out where we were. She had all the information but there is no getting through to her. I'd love to be able to continue the conversation with her or find a way to get through to her but for now space and time are it, she's a lost cause. And even if she changed her mind she would have to work to change so much that I don't think she could do it. She has to separate either way to figure this out. I just wish she was surrounded with people who would hold her accountable. She has gotten rid of all those people from her life. She still hasn't told her sister about this. As someone said, you don't hide things when you are doing the right thing.
AS - I agree with everything you said. I won't sign anything without my attorney reviewing it, but if she does move out that document will begin to govern some of the separation. We are meeting with our mediator two days after she moves out so I will plan on running that by her (she is an attorney).
^^^YES this, absolutely. They also surround themselves with enablers. They may ditch long-time friends and even family members because they encourage them to reconcile, and take on all new "party" friends, many of whom are often also going through separations and divorces.
^^^Yep. All the people who would call her on this are out of her life. Its incredible. They left when she had the affair. And the ones that called her on it, she ostracized them. Again, she won't tell her sister - I'm wondering when that shoe drops.
So Saturday is going to be interesting. I'm supposed to have a work dinner at 8pm. At 3pm my daughter has a family girl scout outing where our family is going a scavenger hunt that will last an hour. So either my wife is planning to tell my kids before or after -- or she is going to push it to the following weekend.
I will make sure to get a family picture at the scavenger hunt. It will be the last photo family photo before they know 100%.
Anyhow, kind of an interesting thing.
Yeah I can see you saw it as a last hail Mary attempt in the game but her mind is made up. Also wouldn’t doubt she has her sights set on someone. Your ex and mine are very similar. Unhappy with no real purpose in life. Kids are older and don’t need as much attention. No desire to figure out what’s really going on with her feelings. The good news Scotty is that there are many available amazing women out there and living alone is 1,000 times better then someone unhappy and miserable.
I hear you LH. Trust me I do. I still don't like it, but I know that in six months to a year I'll be in a better place all around.
So tonight I went to bed to read after I put my daughter to bed at 9:45p. My wife was putting my son to bed and at 10p came down and came into the room and said “When are we going to discuss telling the kids? Are you avoiding me? Should we just do this over email?” I said that I was trying to give her space and that we could talk about it tomorrow night. She also said we were telling them on Friday because that’s what I wanted. I said i thought we were telling them Saturday. And she chirped well you wanted Friday and left. So I’ve got that going on tomorrow night, thoughts or advice?
I also know she had an hour and a half conversation with her sister and still hasn’t mentioned that her mom bought her a house, that she is separating and getting divorced. I continue to find that to be incredibly bizarre.
I’m two chapters into the lost art of listening. Hoping to read a chapter each night.
She had all the information but there is no getting through to her.
Yep. You can’t negotiate with a terrorist.
Scotty B,
Just stick to the points that you love them both very much and this has absolutely nothing to with them. Then answer their questions the best that you can and validate their feelings. I found that this was a another part of the process that I imagined being way worse then it turned to be. I would try to stay away from the jibber jabber your w mapped out. Remember in general less is more.
Stay strong man!
In the Love is Tough book, Dobson discusses some of the issues the victim of an affair deals with: Anxiety, fear, insomnia. It felt validating to read but that doesn't solve the problem. I'm barely getting enough sleep. A night like last night when she comes in and stirs the pot right before I go to bed definitely hurts in the sleep department and I've been waking up every day between 4a-5a and not able to get back to sleep.
The good news is that around 5:30am (since I'm up anyways) I've been heading to the gym, but I look forward to this phase passing. I've got a call with my Divorce Busters coach in 15 minutes so that should be interesting to get some advice as we go into tonight.
I'm not feeling tip top today, so that call should go a long ways towards orienting my thinking and mindset.
Okay. So, first, my divorce busters coach said I did nothing wrong (which I knew, but its good to be reinforced) by talking with my son about his grandfathers (her dad) dementia. He's my son, it was a good moment. I NEED TO STOP APOLOGIZING for things like this, and stop using the word "sorry" period. That should be reserved for immoral, sinful, wrong actions. This is a challenge for me. I remember when I was young believing the two most powerful phrases in the english language were "I Love You" and "I'm Sorry." I need to strip the later from my language and reserve it. That will take some work, but its good work.
My coach said that I have done great work. Since he started working with me, I've changed dramatically. He said that she has acknowledged that I've changed and deep down, the reality is, whether she expresses it or not, she knows she is making a mistake.
He gave me some thoughts on the conversation for tonight and without going into to much detail he said to focus on gratitude (for how she has motivated me to grow) and work to validate and understand as we go through the documents.
Some other things we discussed were that I have got to stop accepting blame.
A great line he dropped was "Change is inevitable, but growth is optional and intentional."
Another point he made was that I need to understand that I am leaving her behind. For her to stay in the relationship, she would need to grow and catch up. She may be making the decision, but I'm growing and improving. I've become more feeling, more vulnerable, and more authentic. I still have work to do, but my next relationship is going to be so much better because of all the work she has motivated me to do.
Anyhow, thought I would share. I continue to appreciate the advice of the DB coaches. I think they really do a good job of doing good work.
Sounds like you got a good DB coach!
I love what he said about saying "I am sorry". That is why I try to get LBSs to not say it when the WAS is upset that you didn't respond to them immediately. A lot of people want to respond with "Sorry, was busy." NO, just say "I was busy." No need to apologize for being busy!
Good update Scott. Remember what you've learned from your DB coach. Apply it.
Good stuff Scotty B. Your coach is a smart man and you need to trust the process. Add David Coggins to your future readings. He talks how you have to be dragged through $hit to grow.
A couple years from now.
Exwife: Scotty B I am sorry I think I made a mistake
Scotty B: I am sorry. It's not that easy anymore.
Then she has catch up to EARN another chance with you.
AS - I agree with everything you said. I won't sign anything without my attorney reviewing it, but if she does move out that document will begin to govern some of the separation. We are meeting with our mediator two days after she moves out so I will plan on running that by her (she is an attorney).
Perfect. Sounds like you are keeping a cool head and doing all the right things. Keep it up.
All the people who would call her on this are out of her life. Its incredible. They left when she had the affair. And the ones that called her on it, she ostracized them. Again, she won't tell her sister - I'm wondering when that shoe drops.
The old saying "blood is thicker than water" definitely applies when it comes to waywards and their families. A lot of LBS's are shocked to see their cheating spouse still warmly embraced and supported by their family when they expected the family to revolt against the cheater and call them out for it. Never underestimate the wayward's power to spin scenarios to make everything sound like the LBS's fault though. "I've been suffering in silence for years, his neglect and psychological abuse became too much for me to bear, it forced me into the arms of a loving, caring, respectful gentleman!" Blah blah blah the lies pour forth so easily, and as they find a receptive audience it feeds the "lie machine" even more. Our advice on this is always the same- be the better person. Don't fight/ argue/ reason/ plead with the WW or her family. Simply conduct yourself with dignity at all times and let the lies run off of you like the proverbial water off a duck's back. ACTIONS not words. Her words (lies) will never, ever trump your integrity and dignity. People will see that, even her closest family.
“When are we going to discuss telling the kids? Are you avoiding me? Should we just do this over email?” I said that I was trying to give her space and that we could talk about it tomorrow night.
Great response! You didn't let her bait you into a fight. You explained your actions and responded with a suggested date.
She also said we were telling them on Friday because that’s what I wanted. I said i thought we were telling them Saturday. And she chirped well you wanted Friday and left. So I’ve got that going on tomorrow night, thoughts or advice?
Yeah she's full steam ahead on the WW train. This is such typical behavior. It may change in the future, but for now this is what you're dealing with.
As far as thoughts on the discussion, I agree with LH about focusing on the kids and letting them know this is not their fault. Can't remember if I suggested this already in your thread, but do tell them you both love them and will remain their parents no matter what and will always be there to support them. No need to get into a lot of detail about the separation other than explaining that you are separating and that they will be going back and forth. Ask them if they have any questions. When XW and I had this discussion with our kids most of their questions were about logistics. Whether they would have their own rooms at her new place, what days they would be switching back and forth, etc. Surprisingly they didn't ask anything about why we were separating or what the recon possibilities were. XW and I had discussed that first and if they asked we planned on telling them that we were going to counseling (true) and trying to work things out (not really true, just one of us was!)
In the Love is Tough book, Dobson discusses some of the issues the victim of an affair deals with: Anxiety, fear, insomnia. It felt validating to read but that doesn't solve the problem. I'm barely getting enough sleep.
Yeah it's pretty typical. In my opinion it's worse while remaining under the same roof. Once she moves out you'll be lonely but you'll actually find it easier to manage. I am the last person to recommend meds for anything, but if you're going through anxiety and/ or depression then do consider discussing it with your PCP. I thought I was doing OK and then about a month after S I suddenly fell into deep depression, which I had never experienced before. It's not just a matter of "snapping out of it", it's very much an illness that has to be addressed. I was evaluated by my PCP and he put me on A/D's and an anti-anxiety med. The anti-anxiety med helped me sleep better almost right away. The A/D's took a couple of weeks to reach full efficacy but once they did I went from having dark thoughts of suicide and thinking life was over to being almost my normal pre-BD self. They really saved my life. I took them a few months and then (while consulting my PCP) weaned off of them slowly. I've never had depression since, even going through D and all.
Good stuff Scotty B. Your coach is a smart man and you need to trust the process. Add David Coggins to your future readings. He talks how you have to be dragged through $hit to grow..
I think you meant David Goggins, but maybe not. I loved Living With SEAL, that book was hysterical and full of good stuff. Goggins is one crazy dude who overcame a lot. He's pretty raw and I don't agree with everything he says but he's got some good perspectives.
She wants to leave, I would insist she tells them the details.
Answer their questions the best that you can and validate their feelings.
Agree. Validating their feelings is important. Most people dismiss other peoples feelings.
You use TRUTH STATMENTS:
"I love you. Mom loves you."
"Mom and dad are dealing with some adult issues."
"I want everyone to be happy"
Personally, I would not plant any seeds. From my research, using statements like "It's not your fault" still plants a seed that it is their fault.
Here is an adult example:
W:"Where are you going?"
H:"Don't worry about it."
Do you think she will worry?
Also, my PCP prescribed me some amazing sleeping pills. Took them for about a month. I would take a pill, 30 minutes later fall asleep. 8 hours wake up. They were so hepful. A/D meds for a short period. Took the edge off. I was able to be more logical rather than emotional. Melatonin also helps with sleep. Telling yourself "I will worry about that tomorrow". A notbook next to the bed to write down things to worry about later also helps. There is also the "Stop sign" technique to calm your thoughts. Slowly count from 100 to zer0 by 3s and repeat also helps.Sometimes I don't get to 80. With every breath out, relax part of your body, start at the top and work to your toes.(Scalp,forehead,eyelids,jaw,shoulders, arms,hands,fingers,belly, legs, feet, toes:Add in other areas if needed).
Just wondering...........did she make the choice to move out of the marital home?
If the kids are being told tomorrow, and she doesn't move out until Dec. 2nd..............will the two of you be sleeping in the same bed?
She wants to leave, I would insist she tells them the details.
Answer their questions the best that you can and validate their feelings.
Agree. Validating their feelings is important. Most people dismiss other peoples feelings.
You use TRUTH STATMENTS:
"I love you. Mom loves you."
"Mom and dad are dealing with some adult issues."
"I want everyone to be happy"
Personally, I would not plant any seeds. From my research, using statements like "It's not your fault" still plants a seed that it is their fault.
Here is an adult example:
W:"Where are you going?"
H:"Don't worry about it."
Do you think she will worry?
Also, my PCP prescribed me some amazing sleeping pills. Took them for about a month. I would take a pill, 30 minutes later fall asleep. 8 hours wake up. They were so hepful. A/D meds for a short period. Took the edge off. I was able to be more logical rather than emotional. Melatonin also helps with sleep. Telling yourself "I will worry about that tomorrow". A notbook next to the bed to write down things to worry about later also helps. There is also the "Stop sign" technique to calm your thoughts. Slowly count from 100 to zer0 by 3s and repeat also helps.Sometimes I don't get to 80. With every breath out, relax part of your body, start at the top and work to your toes.(Scalp,forehead,eyelids,jaw,shoulders, arms,hands,fingers,belly, legs, feet, toes:Add in other areas if needed).
When I can't sleep I chalk it up to allergies and take some benadryl!
Sandi2 - Yes, she made the choice. Yes, as far as I know we will be sleeping in the same bed until she moves out.
R2C - I normally pray. I'm catholic, and sometimes I'll say the rosary until I fall asleep. Last night I sent a message to this message board to help get things off my mind. Sometimes I'll make notes in my phone. I look the notebook idea and a couple of the other's. Thanks.
Today has been a remarkably hard day. I'm looking forward to getting home to have a drink - just enough to take the edge off. I had my coaching call and then took a 45 minute walk with a friend who has been through this. In talking with him I could sense how far behind I am in terms of acceptance and that I'm still in denial. I guess I'll vacillate in and out of the various stages of grief. He said it will be easier when she finally moves out.
I hate days like this where I dwell on all of it and can't get my mind right. Normally either the coaching call or the walk would have been enough. Just a tough day.
You are doing well buddy. This stuff is hard. We all experienced the hadship. The lack of sleep, anxiery, insomnia, the works. But it does get better, it really does. It is a slow process though.
You must not beat yourself up about it. The kids will be OK. You will be OK. You will thrive.
Separation Agreement
————
Once the kids went to bed we sat down to discuss moving forward in the separation phase of the divorce. When we sat down She was already agitated because of the edits I had made to the document. She thought that she was going to send me the document for review and that I would make some comments, we would review it together and then edit it together. The only information I had were her texts which said “FYI, I sent you two google docs for temporary separation agreement and change/not change. Feel free to add comments or add to the list. Maybe we can discuss one night this week.”
I had gone through the document and spelled out most of what we had discussed as it related to custody and I took out the language that had given her extra time with the kids on my days. She felt that I was trying to put myself ahead of the kids because by taking them after school on my days that was creating a lot more change for them than if she got them and did their homework with them. She was upset that I had assigned who got the kids on which days when she had left that in the document as parent A / parent B. I said we could change it, but she was just mad I had made that change, she really didn’t care who had which days.
I pointed out that she should be happy that I want to be with the kids as much as possible. That was a good thing, that their dad is wanting to spend so much time with them. She made the point again that this is just the temporary agreement. I wasn’t sure how that changed anything.
She was so agitated that she said we were not going to be able to go through mediation and that we would just have to let our attorneys figure everything out. She said that I always get what I want and that I was not willing to compromise on anything. I remained calm as she raised her voice.
I explained that this was her divorce and that she wanted all of this, and that I wanted none of it. With the changes I said that it would lay the basis for our custody document. She was trying to say that wasn’t true and that this was just a temporary agreement until we worked through the divorce with the mediator. I unfortunately lied and said that my attorney had told me that it would be the basis for the custody agreement. That really pissed her off and sent her to the moon as she said “I didn’t think we were getting attorneys involved in this.” I tried to explain that the document was written in a way that included custody and financial arrangements that I could not sign and agree to. She said that we didn’t have to sign it.
One item that she really was angry about was that She wanted to have a Sunday night transition at 7pm and i said i didn’t want that. I mentioned that I had seen A friends agreement that was written for a transition on Monday morning. That pissed her off because I was talking about this with my friends and she says she hasn’t talked about this with anyone. She’s very angry that i would discuss this with other people and she feels that it should be kept between us. I told her that she could feel that way.
I think if we were able to get our ego’s out of the way we could find middle ground. She scared me by sending me a formal looking document with financial obligations and custody obligations with a sign here and date line that felt like I was locking myself into something that would and could be used against me. Multiple people said that i needed to have my attorney review the document. She felt that she had just created a document that would help us iron out some of the details of the situation so that we could have a smoother transition. I can see her side, but I feel like she never tried to understand my point of view at all.
As we tried to review the document she sat in her chair with arms crossed and left the computer on the ottoman as though it was up to me to complete the document. She was basically pulling away showing that she was done with the conversation. She had felt like I was avoiding her all week and was mad that it was Thursday by the time we were discussing this and that we were going to tell the kids on Saturday.
On several occasions she brought up past conversations. She would say you told me not to schedule our son with the child psychologist. I told her that i said i didn’t think they would be a good fit when she asked for my opinion. She was in shock and said she was going to start taping our conversations. I said that would be fine, because from my perspective she makes things up and i pointed out how she had made up that her sister and mom didn’t believe gordy had dementia and then she reversed course in the same exact thing. She explained that away by saying it was confusing and that they just weren’t sure.
One interesting thing about how she communicates is that if she asks for an opinion and I react with negative tone she takes it all the way to the bank. For example on a spectrum if she asks me, do you like that price of art and I say not really, I communicated my dislike at a two but she hears me say I hate that - like it’s an 8. And the same goes the other way. If she expresses that she likes something at a 2; it’s really an 8 and she gets outraged that i react as though it’s a two.
I kept trying to focus on moving through the agreement she had sent me and after we got through the custody stuff she began to settle down. As we went through the finances she was upset that I expected her to furnish her own house with her money. I explained that in the divorce she was going to get all the money and I would be left with my business. It finally seemed like she gave on that point and she said that wasn’t fair to me. She felt as though i should get to keep some of the money but at the same time she said she should get her fair half. I went through some of my thoughts in regards to the financial settlement and she mentioned that she didn’t want me paying for all the kids schooling, though that was generous, because she wanted to have a say in it.
At least with the finances she was less irate once i explained it to her though she then reversed course and said we would need to go through the house to divide up furniture. She mentioned that she had begun to make a spreadsheet of items in the house.
We went round and round on the day we would tell the kids. She was noncommittal in the timing and she did not want to set the time and date. She was trying to blame my work dinner as being a reason we could do it, since i said if we told the kids i wouldn’t go - or arguably trying to be nice so that I could go to my work dinner.
She made it clear that she was upset that she was disinvited from Thanksgiving, though she didn’t want to go anyways. But she expressed she was upset about that. I believe the same goes for my work dinner Saturday based in her tone.
In discussing how we were going to tell the kids i let her know what I could agree to and what I could not agree to. I agreed with her that we needed space. I said I could agree to the separation. But that under no circumstances did I agree to the divorce and I tried to make that very clear.
We said with the kids we would try not to use triggering words like divorce or separation but I am worried that they will feel like we’re hiding something and not being honest as I reflected on it afterwards.
I asked when we would tell the school so that they could be aware of the sensitivity of the kids. She wants to tell the school after we tell the kids. She is very worried that the kids will over year someone else talking about this and she wants to make sure they find out from us.
I stayed calm through the conversation. I thanked her over and over again for the work she had done in the agreement trying to show gratitude. It felt like it fell on deaf ears, but somewhere I’m sure it sunk in. I really tried to compliment her in points in the document that were well done but she was so triggered and angry that she didn’t seem to hear that either.
Her theme was simple: He controls everything, he won’t compromise, he always gets what he wants, this is BS, he can talk to my lawyer. She was triggered from the beginning because of the edits I made to the document, she felt like I was controlling the situation. She was triggered because she felt like I had avoided her all week. She was angry.
I tried to listen and validate as best I could. I tried to show gratitude and be calm and gentle as I could. I tried to be strong and not cave. I did say I’m sorry about five times in different spots. It’s so hard to stop when I’m so used to it.
I did bring that up with her, as my coach recommended it. I told her that I was sorry (ha) for saying I was sorry all the time and that I was going to try to stop. (She never says she is sorry, ever btw)
I said that I was going to reserve that word for when I had done something wrong and that i thought in the past i had used it in arguments to get her to stop talking as opposed to trying to understand her perspective.
One comment my coach made that really struck me through this was when he said “you’re leaving her behind, she’s not leaving you.” I really felt that in this conversation. I felt like I had really grown a ton and that she had gone backwards. She felt like a teenager to me with her moods, accusations, anger, etc.
From stories I’ve heard she was a lot like this with her mom during those years. I was reading about transference in a book and i wonder if somehow her relationship with her mom from her teenage years has been transferred to me and I wonder if the hormonal changes at that point and now in her 40’s could lead to this behavior. Just a crazy thought.
It was a wild, exhausting night.
Scott, so you didn't DB at all last night.
Your coach told you to apologize for apologizing?!? That doesn't seem right. Stop saying sorry doesn't mean to say sorry for saying sorry. Are you really sure that is what your coach said.
Sorry Scott, but this was not good at all. You sound needy. You reiterated again things she already knows (I don't want this, you want the D, etc).
Until you can approach the agreements you need to come to in an business like manner, dropping the outward emotions and using it as an excuse to break one of the tenets of DBing (NO R TALKS!!), then you are doomed to continue making mistakes like this.
Sorry Scott, this is a huge setback. And you are too far along to allow this to happen. However, it is water under the bridge. Time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and resolve to do better moving forward.
Steve - Thanks for the feedback, can you provide additional clarity - I'll try to do the same.
Your coach told you to apologize for apologizing?!? That doesn't seem right. Stop saying sorry doesn't mean to say sorry for saying sorry. Are you really sure that is what your coach said.
I was making a joke that I'm so used to saying sorry, that when I stated I was going to stop saying it, I apologized for saying it. I agree saying I'm sorry is not DB-ing. Its a crazy bad habit I have and even when I was extremely aware that I was saying I'm sorry, it would come out before I could stop it. From my coaching session, this was something that I became aware of and I'm working on. My coach thought there was a 180 opportunity here to let her know that I have used "I'm Sorry" to shut down conversation in the past and that my new goal was to stop saying it and to try to do a better job of listening to understand. He said that if anyone can hold me accountable to this, being vulnerable with her at this point as she is now basically an adversary, she would and I could grow from it.
In the conversation, I do not think that I cam across as needy, but maybe I did. I felt strong, I held my positions, outside of my colloquialism of saying "I'm sorry" I thought i did pretty good. She was being extremely emotional and irrational. I was staying calm and trying to focus on the document we were reviewing. I was definitely approaching this like a business meeting, I was thinking that in my mind.
In terms of a setback, I think I disagree. I was able to hold my opinions and not cave. Her irrational, angry, and confrontational behavior did not tilt me or trigger me. I went to bed and counted backwards from 100 by 3's and was asleep in an instant.
The setback is this -- she is coming completely unhinged. Guilt, anger, frustration, suffocation, all of it - I don't know, but she is a mess. You wouldn't know it if you were anyone else, but in she comes apart in these conversations - And she scheduled it.
-------------------------------
Now this morning, you can bring the pain on me. As I was leaving the house, she walked by me and I gave her a kiss on the cheek. She did lean in for it. Why did I do it? I don't know, it was premeditated. With the huge craziness the night before I felt the need to let her know I still cared.
And then I got a dose of more crazy. Yesterday her and my son had asked me to take him to get new ski boots after school today. She normally pick him up. As I was walking out the door she said "And I just want you to be aware that you are taking my time with him after school today!" She said it with tears in her eye and angry as heck, the kids were waiting in the car for me to take them to school. I should have just said "I can understand how you would feel that way" but it was such a crazy comment because I have to leave work early to do it and she asked me to.
Anyhow, last night I felt good about, this morning I major league broke a rule. A good piece of me doesn't care, because I felt so good about last night. I really stayed within myself and didn't let her bait. I stood up for myself across the board and I didn't take on her emotions. I really worked to listen and validate - I could do more there. The Art of Listening helped, but I got a ton more to learn.
LH's comments on changing hormones really came home last night especially as my reading in the Art of Listenning discussed transference. When she was a teenager her and her mom had crazy battles that I've heard all about. My wife actually sees those times in her life as when she was strong and stood up for herself. I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me.
We'll see how the days ahead go, but I feel stronger today.
Scott, as I just told curtis in his thread (another poster that did very little DBing), this is your sitch. You can do whatever you want, DB, don't DB. However, you cannot come here and claim you DB'd when you clearly did not. The posters here will call you out for that.
Great you stayed calm. That was about the only thing you did right. And then this:
"The setback is this -- she is coming completely unhinged. Guilt, anger, frustration, suffocation, all of it - I don't know, but she is a mess. You wouldn't know it if you were anyone else, but in she comes apart in these conversations - And she scheduled it." This proves to me that you still do not get DBing. DBing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER!! This is the biggest mistake LBSs make. "I got a life, 180'd and detached. She is angry and bitter, it isn't working!" WRONG! If you are GAL, working on yourself, and detaching, you will be successful...............in moving on a better person setup for success in future Rs, whether with your STBXW or someone new!!! DBing always makes you successful even if you do not save your marriage.
And then this:
"From stories I’ve heard she was a lot like this with her mom during those years. I was reading about transference in a book and i wonder if somehow her relationship with her mom from her teenage years has been transferred to me and I wonder if the hormonal changes at that point and now in her 40’s could lead to this behavior. Just a crazy thought.""
"LH's comments on changing hormones really came home last night especially as my reading in the Art of Listenning discussed transference. When she was a teenager her and her mom had crazy battles that I've heard all about. My wife actually sees those times in her life as when she was strong and stood up for herself. I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me."
WHO CARES?!?! SO much focus on her. Scott, you are trying to find the REASON in the false hope that means it can be FIXED! Here is the truth you have to come to: You may never know the reason. And even if you do you cannot fix it!!
I just went back to your post I originally responded to. I am just curious. Where in that post do you think you DB'd?
Scotty B,
I think you did ok. Right now you stand up for what’s right and fair. Do not give up any of your time with the children. Absolutely nothing you do good or bad will change where you’re at right now. Hormones and past traumas and hurts are definitely playing a factor in it. The problem is you have no idea how long it will last.
She is 100% done right now and will be for a while. Just know that sooner or later their will be doubts or regrets and that is when she will be able to see the new and improved Scotty B.
Scotty B Steve is right about you trying to diagnose it and fix it. I’m guessing that’s what makes you successful in business. That doesn’t work in this arena. So handle your business like a negotiation you would with your clients/customers and keep the emotions out of it.
LH - The business analogy is good. I'm always trying to find the objection. If you clear the way of objections then there is only one logical choice, do business with us. If there are no objections and they don't do business then something else is up. You try to dig to the root so that you can address the problem. Sometimes they just don't like you, sometimes they have stuff going on they just don't tell you, and sometimes they decide to go with someone else, but you try to figure it out.
I'm confused by Steve's response. Steve, how would you define Divorce Busting?
Hi Scott,
Whenever I see a post as long as yours, I think "Oh no". Here are my thoughts:
"she was agitated"
"she was upset"
"she was so agitated"
"she really was angry"
"That pissed her off "
"I tried to listen and validate as best I could. I tried to show gratitude and be calm and gentle as I could. I tried to be strong and not cave. I did say I’m sorry about five times in different spots. It’s so hard to stop when I’m so used to it."
"I stayed calm as she raised her voice"
"I stayed calm through the conversation."
Right now you are the trigger. Your job as the man is to listen and validate her feelings. Do not feed them. Do not fear them. Do not try to control them. They are her emotions. Let her own them. Read that Validation thread daily. Burn it into your communication style.
"I kept trying to focus on moving through the agreement '
That is her job. Your job is to validate. She wants this separation/divorce. Not you. Let her do the work. You just evaluate what she proposes. You can always postpone your decision. "I need time to think about that" or "I will let you know when I decide" etc.
"I pointed out that she should be happy"
Never do this again.
But that under no circumstances did I agree to the divorce and I tried to make that very clear.
What you resists, persists.
These are words PuppyDogTails used:
"I do not believe divorce is the solutions to our problems, but if divorce is the only way for you to be happy, I will not stand in your way"
It was a wild, exhausting night.
I bet. You tried to bite off to much. Keep things to one topic at a time.
If I were in your shoes, I text her:
H:"W, I believe it would be best from now on if we address one topic at a time. If you agree, what topic should we address first?"
Notice how I did not say go have a conversation with her.
Scotty B,
The WW business is a customer you want know part of and will never understand them because I don’t think they understand themselves. They just know they are not happy. Just like with a customer you can force them to buy from you. You can supply the best product possible but the customer has free will.
You ever have a customer who leaves you and ends up with a cheaper and lower value customer only to return to you in the future because you supply a superior product? Bet it happens a lot right? Same thing for the WWs.
I'm confused by Steve's response. Steve, how would you define Divorce Busting?
Avoiding R talks like the plague. Remember you are supposed to be GAL. So when she sat down to "discuss" the plan you should have stuck to discussing the plan.
Once you she said her peace on the plan, and you listen and validated, you simply said "Ok, well I need some more time to digest all of this. But I have some things I need to do." Then got up and walked away.
Listen.
Validate.
Avoid subjects not related to the issue at hand (the plan).
GAL by getting up and walking away.
That was what you should have done. Your repeating that she wants this, you reacting to her emotions (see R2C's resposne), you getting into a tit-for-tat with her was all NOT DBing.
Like I said, from my perspective the only thing you did well was to stay calm.
In the future, you should avoid these discussions. Simply have her send it to her. YOu review, have your lawyer review it, and then give her written feedback.
Do not use things like this as an excuse to violate the "no R talks" rule.
I’m exhausted. Told the kids today. They did better than I thought. Had a big family cry. I’ll type more tomorrow or Monday.
Hang in there, Scott. Wishing you and your family well.
So sorry your going through this man. hang in there
I’m exhausted. Told the kids today. They did better than I thought. Had a big family cry. I’ll type more tomorrow or Monday.
First off Scotty you have the worst of it behind you and as I said earlier in this entire process it's never as bad as you think it will be. Her moving out is the last step. Your W is really selfish that she couldn't wait until after the holidays.
It's been a long exhausting journey for you but I promise you it will get better.
Last night was easier than this morning. I’m sure I’ll get it together and stop crying soon. Every time there is a conversation or event I journal about it and then sometimes I’ll share my journal here. So this is how it happened:
11/7 The Kids
——————
One of the hardest days of my life. I got up and worked out hoping that would help but the burden of the day was heavy.
We had D’s family scavenger hunt with which I knew would be the last family activity we would have before we told them. It was fun doing the different activities but their was an obvious tension between W and I. Still, some of the pictures we took will be memories for a lifetime - at least for me. And go figure, we ended up winning too.
Then we came home and W and I talked about how we were going to tell them. I remember just staring at the clock as the minutes went by it was 3:15p.
We went downstairs and gathered the kids and I did all the talking. I sat on the floor with the three of them on the couch. Watching the tears in all of their eyes was the most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever done and there was know way around it. I tried to be gentle but clear. We all cried and we all held one another. D was wimpering like she did when she was a baby she was crying so hard. I scooped her up in my arms and just rocked her back and force as she nestled into me. Son was stone faced with tears streaming down his cheeks. Neither of them asked any questions.
After some time and telling them the details holly asked if they wanted to see the house. D was excited about it. She hates feeling sad so this gave her something fun to focus on and get away from her feelings. Son seemed to almost know which house it was - it made me wonder if he had found and read through all of Ws notes or something but that’s unlikely.
W asked the kids if they wanted to see the house and D said yes, Son said no. She then invited me and he said he would go. We drove by the new house to show them where it was. There were tears with the weight of the moment but also maybe a peace in knowing where they would be.
We got home and W, myself, and D sat on the porch. Son sat in front of the tv to watch a movie. I think he was just looking to escape. We had dinner as a family and we didn’t talk any more about it. Then son and I watched a football game and went to bed.
D and W talked and D had all kinds of questions. She wanted to know if we would continue to wear our wedding rings, why dad stayed in the house, and she was worried about money.
Eventually W and I went to bed. She thanked me for the talk. We talked about some other things, it was obvious she was really torn up. She said it was the worst day of her life.
It did feel like having the conversation tore some of the wall between us down, not that it matters, but maybe it will make living here over the next two weeks better.
One thing my coach said at the very beginning was that I needed to make it as easy as possible for her to walk away logistically because that would make it harder emotionally. I had forgotten that peace of advice. He said it would tear down her walls when she wasn’t fighting me and then she would be able to see me again. The walls keep out the good he said, but let in the bad.
That’s an area I’ve been doing a poor job in but today I did feel like she really opened up in a different way, not that it matters. The winter will be cold - thank god for my kids, family, and friends.
Scotty B,
I’m not going to lie your post brought tears to my eyes. I hate this fuching stuff and it’s so preventable if people were more educated and men and woman actually understood each other better.
My ex actually had the keys to her house so we all went over as a family and that seemed to help.
If it’s any consolation to you my kids are doing great so this is survivable for everyone.
Just keeping moving forward.
ScottB,
That must have been so difficult. I'm sorry your W's actions are causing you and your kids such pain. Since I got through most of my personal feelings of betrayal and sadness, the worst part has definitely been seeing and dealing with my son's emotions - as a parent you never want to see your children hurt and crying. Be there for your kids first and foremost, but don't forget yourself either.
Hang it there.
My son is reeling. I spoke with him, he’s 12. He had no idea. He thought we were all happy. Caught completely off guard. He said he’s sad; i asked where he felt it and he pointed and said just under my heart.
So heartbreaking.
Remember to validate his feelings and let him no it’s ok to be sad.
Also, things are getting real and you are coming out of denial and likely into anger. Try to channel the anger into positive things.
Jees scot that sound soooo tough!
Now is the time for you to be a rock for you children.
It’s ok to tell them you don’t know and that you are also sad.
But be there for them, REALLY listen and validate.
Then be there for them again and again.
Hang in there Scott. The night is always darkest before the dawn. Better days are ahead.
You will thrive once again... The kids will be OK. It might seem it is the end of the world, but it is not. You will emerge stronger on the other side. Trust the process, trust yourself. Take precautions. Sign nothing unless your lawyer has taken a look. Protect yourself financially. Divvy up accounts. Store your half in a safe place. Cancel all joint credit cards.
And this one is done. The days are becoming long as I want her to stay if she would stay but since she’s not I want her gone, but not really. The days are long. We mostly stayed around the house today as a family. We went and played pickle ball, had a family dinner like we always do, played outside in the trampoline, and then we’re silly as we played family board games. The kids seem to have settled down, the next two weeks before she moves out are going to be hard.
She was thankful yesterday for how I handled “the talk” but tonight she was angry again and I was the target. I tried to work on listening and validating as I’m reading my book, the art of listening - I figure this is good practice. Anyhow, thanks everyone for your words and support. It does really help. These days are long and the winter is just around the corner.
From here on I believe this is really about my development as a person. With that in mind, last night after I really tried to listen and validate, as we went to bed she said “thanks for trying to understand.” So if nothing more, that’s good feedback that I’m getting better at that. It’s not easy to do and The Art of Listening is really helpful in teaching me what real listening is. Peace folks. Hope today is a great day for everyone.
Who is the author of the art of listening Scott?
Who is the author of the art of listening Scott?
Michael P Nichols.
I’m 85 pages in and it’s good. Gives lots of examples. To internalize it I imagine you have to read it 2-3 times and take good notes, and practice. A WAW is a good practice partner imo because they can be hard to listen to when they are ripping you apart and passively aggressively attacking you. If they compliment you, you know you’re on the right path.
ScottyB,
Try to remember her mindset right now. She's fearful of her future and angry at you because in her mind you forced her to hurt you and the children.
Once she is out she will start to burn through the resentment and her anger and unhappiness can not be directed at you.
LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
Remember, her version of reality is HER version of reality. Don't try to change her mind, reason with her, correct it. Understand what her perception and then do you!
Speaking of doing you, I am still seeing you struggle with GAL. What are your plans for staying busy this week?
LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
Like Steve said that is her reality and to an extent she’s right. But that’s what she wanted to do when her body was producing lots of estrogen which is a nurturing hormone. Now with her body producing less she doesn’t want to do that anymore which makes her want to do things for herself. She feels a new life with a new man will bring her happiness. My bet is that it will not. Only time will tell.
LH - You seem to be all over this. Do you want to call her?
Steve - Me and the kids head to florida on 11/22 for a week, and then the new custody arrangement begins after that and she will no longer be in the house. So GAL is happening fast and soon, I'm not going to push it these next two weeks.
I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
LH - You seem to be all over this. Do you want to call her?
Steve - Me and the kids head to florida on 11/22 for a week, and then the new custody arrangement begins after that and she will no longer be in the house. So GAL is happening fast and soon, I'm not going to push it these next two weeks.
I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
Wait, not going to push GAL: these next 2 weeks? When that is the time you SHOULD be GAL. Scott, you have struggled mightily, and I believe that is a big reason why....you've been terrible at GAL.
Scotty B,
I would love to talk some sense into your W but she’s past the point of no return. Unfortunately her journey is scripted and the outcome is very predictable. I’ve studied this stuff immensely because I had to understand why my family was be broken apart and I had zero control of it. What really helps if you understand that your on a journey that may take you places you have never dreamed you could go. This is not a death sentence by any means. Just not the life you planned.
Scott this was a few pages ago but I'm just now catching up.
She was so agitated that she said we were not going to be able to go through mediation and that we would just have to let our attorneys figure everything out. She said that I always get what I want and that I was not willing to compromise on anything. I remained calm as she raised her voice.
This is very, very typical. WAS's have this fantasy in their head about how perfect and smooth everything will go. She fully expected you to agree with everything and rubber stamp it. Anything else is unacceptable to her WAS-polluted mind. Argue even the tiniest point and it sends her ranting and raving. Unfortunately this is life with a WAS. Expect more of this type of behavior. When we talk about "getting off the roller coaster" what we mean is while she rides the ups and downs, you stay off to the side on terra firma. She's all over the place, you are solid and stable. DO NOT let her browbeat you into accepting anything less than a fair settlement. Do your homework. Know what you want. If she screams and gets agitated and waves her arms around then listen and validate, but STAND YOUR GROUND. A lot of people think "validate" means "give her what she wants", no that is not it at all. Validating simply means reaffirming her FEELINGS, not her demands. "You seem upset, I am sure this all must be very upsetting for you, I am sorry you feel that way." "So you'll sign my version then?" "No, I've made changes that I think are reasonable and fair." "YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE WHAT YOU WANT BLAH BLAH BLAH" Always remember that she should not be allowed to tread on your boundaries. If she yells, then warn her once and then walk away. "I am sorry you are upset but I will not tolerate being yelled at, if you can discuss this calmly then I am willing, but if you yell at me again then we will take a break and discuss this another time."
With the changes I said that it would lay the basis for our custody document. She was trying to say that wasn’t true and that this was just a temporary agreement until we worked through the divorce with the mediator.
Here's what my lawyer told me when I was in the stage you're in, whatever precedences are set in the separation will be HEAVILY considered by the court for the final divorce agreement. And not only that, but I've seen it play out that way too. What you agree to informally CAN AND WILL be used against you later. I've seen men here that wanted 50-50 custody but let their WW coerce them into less, telling them the kids need their mom during this transition or whatever, and that it's just temporary and they will work out the permanent arrangement later. Guess what happens? Months go by and they go to court and the judge says "You've only been seeing the kids every other weekend, why do you think you deserve 50-50 now? You've shown that you are willing to accept the custody arrangement the way it is now, and the court doesn't believe it's in the best interest of the children to upset their schedule." Believe me, the judge won't care one hoot about what promises she made to you before, that falls under the category of "he said she said". The court will consider actions and history, not words and promises.
I unfortunately lied and said that my attorney had told me that it would be the basis for the custody agreement. That really pissed her off and sent her to the moon as she said “I didn’t think we were getting attorneys involved in this.” I tried to explain that the document was written in a way that included custody and financial arrangements that I could not sign and agree to. She said that we didn’t have to sign it.
You're not in the business of placating her. You need to make sure you're protected and the kids are protected. I'm not saying to go for more than you think it fair, but I am saying you need to understand your rights and a lawyer will help you navigate that. Also the divorce process itself is pretty cumbersome and it's not as simple as walking in the court and high fiving the judge and walking out. The paperwork has to be done just so, the process has to be followed, things have to be filed a certain way with certain people, etc. Even if the two of you agree on everything, you still need a lawyer to help you with that.
She’s very angry that i would discuss this with other people and she feels that it should be kept between us.
Hire a lawyer. Inform her that you hired one not to fight her, but just to help with this process. Whether she likes it or not is immaterial. If you decide to build a house you consult a contractor. If you decide to get surgery you consult a doctor. This is no different, you're just consulting a professional on matters you don't have expertise in.
As we tried to review the document she sat in her chair with arms crossed and left the computer on the ottoman as though it was up to me to complete the document. She was basically pulling away showing that she was done with the conversation.
"You look agitated, would you like to continue or would you rather take a break and discuss this another time?"
On several occasions she brought up past conversations.
"We're trying to resolve this separation agreement, we can discuss that if you wish but I would suggest we save that for another time so we can focus on this."
She mentioned that she had begun to make a spreadsheet of items in the house.
Good, that is exactly what the two of you should do. I asked my XW to make a list of the things she wanted to take so we could discuss it. She did exactly that. We agreed on most of it, there were a few things I wanted to keep so I asked her if she was willing for me to buy her replacement items instead since I would have to buy replacements anyway. She agreed to that and we spent a day shopping for furniture which I paid for (we had separate bank accounts our entire marriage).
She made it clear that she was upset that she was disinvited from Thanksgiving, though she didn’t want to go anyways. But she expressed she was upset about that. I believe the same goes for my work dinner Saturday based in her tone.
Just validate, don't argue about it or tell her she can goes if she wants to. "I am sorry you are upset, I can understand why you feel that way."
I stayed calm through the conversation. I thanked her over and over again for the work she had done in the agreement trying to show gratitude.
It's great that you stayed calm, but this isn't the place to show gratitude. If you're trying to appeal to her "words of affirmation" love language then do it about the kids, tell her what a great mom she is and how much the kids enjoy her cooking or help with homework or whatever. Don't thank her for the separation/ divorce.
I tried to listen and validate as best I could. I tried to show gratitude and be calm and gentle as I could. I tried to be strong and not cave. I did say I’m sorry about five times in different spots. It’s so hard to stop when I’m so used to it.
And don't apologize either. Validation isn't apologizing. I mean you can tell her you're sorry she's feeling XYZ, that is different. That's validation, not an apology. You're sorry for how she is FEELING, not for whatever she thinks you did wrong.
I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
I understand, I felt the same way. But I am very thankful I went to the doc and got those prescriptions, it helped me cope at a time I could not. And it helped me get back to my old self much more quickly.
AS - so my doc recommended Prozac. Don’t know anything about it. Maybe a sleep led, but as he described it I wasn’t sure. There were some other medicines he talked about but he said I wouldn’t be able to drink - so I said forget that. Not sure what I’m going to do.
Today was the toughest day I’ve had in months. I didn’t want to go into work so I talked to a friend or three for the first two hours of my day and then I got a call from a customer who told me HE was getting divorced and his story was exactly the same as mine. Wife met a dude at the gym...found her phone log, she was calling him everyday for extended periods of time... found that the local Hilton had been visited. It was like PTSD for me and sent me off the reservation.
I went and talked to a friend who gave me a beer and then we went for a two hour walk. I want this over.
Also, found a recipe tin my safe for her attorney from 3/2018. She had acted like she had never met the woman but she won’t $900 on a consult with her, which is a two hour consult. The lying is incredible.
We obviously need this to end, but my heart is t letting go.
Hang in there buddy. We hear you. We were all there. We have all faced the same demons. We all survived and came out stronger on the other end.
Your heart not letting go is just rose colored glasses and denial going on. There is no getting around it, the only way is through.
You finding a lawyer bill from 2018 is sadly very typical and falls in line with the general WAS behavior. They are off the reservation at least 2 years before the BD.
Physical activity is key for getting out of the funk, as is GAL. Take up a hobby, go hiking, dust off that camera and go in the nature.
Learn about the 6 stages of grief, it will help you understand your body reactions.
The Six Stages of Grieving
NUMBNESS AND DENIAL. To initially cope with loss it common to go in a state of shock and denial. ...
ANXIETY AND PANIC * When you feel anxiety, deeper feelings about your loss will be piercing through your denial. ...
BARGAINING AND CONTROL. ...
FRUSTRATION AND ANGER. ...
DEPRESSION AND DESPAIR. ...
ACCEPTANCE AND PEACE.
It is not a clear cut journey and one can regress for a while to a previous stage, but a general direction is there.
Do not be ashamed to take the meds. It will help take the edge off. Just be aware that there might be side effects. Some people do not like the side effects. Also be aware that you cannot go cold turkey on the meds. And the third thing is it might take some time to adjust the dosage and/or type of meds that work for you.
That being said, one cannot overestimate the importance of physical activity and GAL.
You got this buddy.
I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me.
Does it change how you interact with her? Does it change how you go forward with your life?
I’m 85 pages in and it’s good. Gives lots of examples. To internalize it I imagine you have to read it 2-3 times and take good notes, and practice. A WAW is a good practice partner imo because they can be hard to listen to when they are ripping you apart and passively aggressively attacking you. If they compliment you, you know you’re on the right path.
What does the book suggest you do when she's ripping you apart and attacking? Can you tell the difference in how your W reacts when you've hurt her, and how she reacts when she is angry at you? Do you recognize disrespect in these times where she's ripping you apart? What has been your usual reaction?
I disagree that her complimenting you being a sign you're on the right path. It's no problem for a WW to use compliments as a means of temperature testing. If she's wayward, she'll twist you so many ways until you'll feel like a one man circus act. Why? B/c your focus is all about getting her back. You're trying to win the prize.
I don't have a problem with the LBH reading self help books to improve his life. I don't have an issue with LBH's reading about relationships in order to have a better marriage. My concern is when I see a LBH with NGS, reading material that reinforces his passivity. Nice guys like reading material that tells them to do things like giving complements, listening, validating, engaging in family activities, being her BFF, communicate in her LL, etc. This appeals to the LBH with NGS. However, he doesn't want to touch any material that suggests applying tough love.
The problem is that WW's are not sexually attracted to the LBH who is tripping over himself trying to win her back. Before these types of material can be significantly beneficial in a case of a WW, the H must first approach everything from a point of self respect and protecting his boundaries. Your W is not attracted to you b/c she has a fantasy in her head about another man and a different life. She's not happy in her MR, b/c she's fantasizing about some other guy. Real or imaginary, it has the same results in her feelings. It affects her desire and attraction for her H. A wife cannot have another man living in her head, and feel desire for her H.
You've been in MC for three yrs, and she still doesn't want you sexually. You can blame it on her FOO, hormones, depression, personality disorder, or whatever. I'm not saying those things don't play a part in how she feels and views life. But a lot of what we see here on the board, is the W who sees her H as the source for all her unhappiness. She blames him for not making her happy. She's on a search for happiness, but she's expecting someone else to make her happy, instead of realizing she's responsible for her own lack of happiness. Unfortunately, she sees leaving the MR and finding someone else as being necessary for her to obtain the happiness she dreams about. Her LBH could jump through hoops of fire to win her back, but it won't work.
^^^ Really great, on-point info from Vapo and Sandi. ^^^
Hang in there buddy. We hear you. We were all there. We have all faced the same demons. We all survived and came out stronger on the other end.
I remember when I was going through the worst of this and people would tell me the above, it just didn't ring true. It felt like everything was hopeless, my life was over, I was just going to go through the motions for however long I had left in life. It seemed impossible that I would ever feel better. But what Vapo is saying is 100% true, and believe me, if I made it through then you will too. Because I was in the absolute deepest pit of despair imaginable. And I did not reconcile, and my life did not go "back to normal". But I found a "new normal", and new happiness, and new joy in new things.
I've said this many times before but you may not have seen it since you haven't been here long, but I thought the novel that is my life was ending, but in fact it was only a chapter that was ending and when I turned the page, I started writing an entirely new and different and mysterious and amazing chapter. I have different interests now, different pursuits, different loves. I'm not saying my life is better now because I did love my old life. But it's very different, there's really no comparing the "before" and "after" versions of me or my life. A lot of this positive attitude came from embracing the differences rather than being scared of them. When my XW left then I made changes to the house that she would not have approved of. At first the bed felt empty, but then I learned to stretch out and enjoy the extra space. At first not having the kids every other week was heart-breaking, but then I realized that time was now mine to do whatever I wanted. I'd go to the gym at midnight, go motorcycle riding whenever, watch a movie with the surround sound cranked up (my XW really hated that) while eating dinner off the footstool of my recliner, make clay sculptures on the dining table. I eventually started dating, and found a lot of fulfillment in that as well. And later yet I settled into a new long term relationship with a beautiful, sweet, kind young lady.
Would I have chosen this path? No, I was committed to the marriage. But it wasn't my choice to make, so why not blaze a new trail? And you will too, you just don't know you have the power to do that yet. But it will come with time.
PS- You're on page 11, time for a new thread!
I felt like I hijacked Steve_’s thread a little. Mummin left this there: YouTube datingguy no contact
It was a great video. The concept of understanding we’re not going back, there is only forwards was strong. I’m thinking I talk to her about taking our wedding rings off. We said we would do it together. That would help me move on. Wearing this thing and pretending this isn’t happening isn’t helping me.
It’s probably bad to start flirting with women and getting noticed again, but I know it sure would help me say goodbye.
It was a great video. The concept of understanding we’re not going back, there is only forwards was strong. I’m thinking I talk to her about taking our wedding rings off. We said we would do it together. That would help me move on. Wearing this thing and pretending this isn’t happening isn’t helping me.
Scotty B that sounds a little dramatic but to each his own. Just take yours off when you feel comfortable taking off. No discussion, no tactics when you’re ready.
It’s ok flirt with women. You honestly have no idea what’s in store for you. You will most likely have one night stands. Married women will come on to you. You’ll be texting different women all day. Married men will envy you. You’ll watch football all day if you feel like it. Go to bed at 7 if you feel like it. Things will be so less stressful when hanging out with you kids.
Like AS said I wouldn’t have done it but like in poker you have to play the hand you were dealt.
I’m thinking I talk to her about taking our wedding rings off. We said we would do it together.
Was that part of your wedding vows?
What part about avoid R talk like the plague does this fall under?
All the rules of the old relationship are now out the window. There is a whole new set of rules.
I could have written exactly what AS and LH19 last posts say. They just posted first.
Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870386That is my foundation.