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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2898449&page=allQuick recap-- H had a 2 year long distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us because of the overwhelming stress, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife. We had four months of getting along very well, enjoying family time with the lockdown, planning for the future. We stopped MC during lockdown as no childcare and H wanted to take a break given the potential stress of MC and quarantine together. Then three and a half weeks ago I found out that a couple weeks before that he got back in touch with AP-- she'd texted him to say she was moving on, he reached out to see if she was OK with the protests in her area-- and all of a sudden we have rewound back to January. He's scared he is going to miss out on this one chance to be happy, back to his fantasy D scenario where we remain best friends and we co-own the house and have dinner together every night with the kids, insisting that we make this decision together. (Which I refuse to do.) He's also refused to MO, saying he would want to move to the basement and not out of the house entirely (until, presumably, she moved out here. She lives 5k miles away. Oh, and now says she looooooooves H so much she doesn't need kids anymore.)
Over the past couple of weeks, after the initial shock and whiplash wore off, I've been really focusing on myself and working on detaching. I started seeing an IC, have had a couple of attorney consults, worked out some budget stuff and a child sharing proposal to feel OK about being on my own. I've started to surface my anger instead of burying it deep, which is centering around the lying, the A, the half-@$$ed "trying" from Feb-May (when he WAS really started to disengage from her and refocus on us, though that is buried now in his revisionist history), the potential D derailing a new career I was preparing to embark on this summer with H's full support but can't really do on my own-- but mostly centered around him actually leaving. I am refusing to help him make this decision. I'm also working on delinking my own behaviors from consciously or subconsciously trying to manipulate him, and identifying his manipulative behaviors towards me. Trying to parse through my own anger and fears to get to a place where I can be whole and detached regardless of what is happening with H.
We have/had a month-long trip planned for the end of July into August. Last week I told him I didn't want to go on this vacation and play happy family in the current situation. He sat on that for a couple of days and then proposed two five-day trips and he takes the kids. I initially said no, then some of you wise posters here helped me see that was controlling on my part, and I told him it was fine. He thought on this for a couple more days and then on the weekend told me he doesn't want to get divorced, he is going to break it off with AP (again, this time for good). His reasons did not have anything to do with wanting me, more about the children and all the other things about D he doesn't want (the house, the financials, etc) plus is back to he can't have an R with someone who wants children. He expressed his fears that he'll never get over the SSM that preceded the A and be able to fall back in love with me. I was and am very skeptical. Told him to give it some time, he might change his mind, also asked what would be different this time around (no good answer to this one). We have managed to not talk about it since then and both have our IC appointments tomorrow, after which I imagine it may come up again. He has now thrown himself into planning this full month-long trip, which we both know isn't happening if we are still in the status quo, but I'm sure we could figure something out where he takes the kids on half of it and I take them somewhere fun for the other half. I haven't reminded him of any of this. At some point we'll have to address it, I guess-- I don't want to just slide into this trip unless I see major changes, which I'm not really expecting at this point.
So... that's where we are. Hope, Job, WF, I'll respond separately to you guys.
Darling May. I have been reading your threads religiously but haven't been able to post any of my thoughts. In no particular order:
You are amazing. And so strong and so good. Not a soul could accuse you of not having your heart and mind in the right place. The heart and mind play games with each other, always trying to outcompete. I see that playing out in your posts. So normal. So true. So human. At the end of the day, only YOU get to decide which voice 'wins'. It's up to you.
I have read people suggesting you focus less on H and more on you. But there is a selfish side of me that WANTS to hear H's story, or your view of it. Because years down the road, when your story is one of the DB annals, people want to read your H's side and think 'that's MY H to a T!' And then look to your voice for guidance and think 'I too can do what she did!' So please don't diminish your voice, or your H's voice in your threads. Who cares if you are perfectly DBing or doing exactly what everyone says you should. Your voice is human and real, just like all of ours. Keep posting the truth as you see it, we all (present and future) need it. And at the very least, perhaps this forum is a journal where you get to read your own personal journey and see how far you have come (I see you, I heart you, AlisonUK).
Having said that, the folks suggesting May stays true to May is valid. Keep fighting for the real May. Whomever she may be in the moment. (And it's OK to flip-flop between angry-May and heartfelt-May and trusting-May and hopeful-May and despairing-May all in the same moment, BTW)
My IC has had me focus in on my heart lately. Getting out of my head, the analytical, scientist side of me, and into my heart. The heart speaks the intuitive, real truth, if only the head allows it. I think that perhaps your heart wants to let things play out... is H for real this time? Is this really it? And I think it is OK to let your heart lead for a bit. Your head will always be there; you are no pansy pushover; you too are analytical and probably of a scientific background. Your head will step in and save you when it needs to. This may go against most advice out there. So take it or leave it. And obviously, do what you need to do to save your own soul, whatever path that may be.
Your H is a lying cheater who has rocked your marriage to the core. He is also confused. And human. He is not the worst on these threads, nor the best. Only HE can make the best decision for himself. And YOUR power lays in whether or not his best decision for himself is good enough for you. MAY HAS THE POWER. Remind yourself of this over and over and over again. You don't have to take him back. You can choose to take him back. Or not. MAY HAS THE POWER. (Disregard the kids in this instance... children will always be best when their primary model is at her best)
I keep coming back to the whole 'love is a verb' concept. Maybe H comes back for the kids. For fear of D. Who is to say that over time that he will STAY for love of you? Again, I may be anti-DB in my approach, but if you read all the success stories, I feel the common thread is that the LBS gains the power over the decision (almost always a construct in their head that the WAS responds to) and that is what brings the WAS back again. Can you both stay true to the truest of May's heart wishes AND not give a flying f*** what H decides in the end?
If and when you get there, give me back the same advice. I SEE you, girl.
So much love.
s
Job, Hope— thank you. I know this intellectually but in the thick of it, it gets difficult. I also do sometimes get frustrated with myself. It feels like it would be sooooo much easier just to say F U to my H and walk. Call up all my friends and family and explain what is going on. Wash my hands of him. And then I'm wondering why I'm so resistant to this and can't I just listen to everyone? I guess I’m just not yet at a point where I feel I can do that without regret— and that is really important to me, the no regrets part.
I did stop by to talk a bit about the p!ssed off at the leaving vs the actual affair. I wrote what's below back in January. Maybe it can help you sort out where you're at. I was never as upset as people here or IRL think I should've been about the affair. Abandoning me and our marriage and our kids because he was too stupid or stubborn to face his issues head on that, that upset me.
I was actually re-reading your threads from back then, WF. (And got annoyed at myself for some of my posts to you, sorry!!) And I read this and it stuck with me. For me, it is less about the rewriting of history, because that seems to have gone by the wayside. More recently, since this last BD, he’s actually been romanticizing our early R, said he worshipped me, the silliness I brought into our R that he’d never known, how his brother made so much fun of him for our dumb nicknames. Stuff I’d forgotten. He said, maybe that May grew up. You aren’t silly like that with me anymore. And in M2.0 he doesn’t want to worship anyone. He wants a partner. He doesn’t want someone who can read him like a book. He wants someone to write the book with him. (Not sensing he thinks I’m that person… I’m the one who can read him like a book.)
What frustrates me more is the part about your H calling your home HOME. My H absolutely sees this as his home and me and the kids as his family. He just wants this other thing and maybe wants it so badly that he’s willing to blow this all up and cause all this collateral damage. He has said he thinks the damage he’s done to me and the MR is so great that maybe it can’t be fixed and maybe it is smarter to start over. And that just grinds me— that you can have all that history and all these years and the children and our lives together so entwined and yet not be willing to actually work on what went wrong, be ready to throw it all away and start fresh because trying is too difficult. As I write this, I wonder if this is maybe part of the reason I’m standing— because I do believe so strongly in the foundation of what we have and it is worth fighting for… much like you just wrote on your own thread.
I also wanted to mention that I've dealt with the same thing you've dealt with of how much easier this would be if H was a "duck" (god I love that cardinal..lol) all the time. I see how hostile and combative some of these WS/WAS are and I think well that would've been easy. And maybe it's charm for the sake of charm, and maybe it's them being themselves for just a little peek but I think it makes everything harder when you see who you thought they were.
I love that Cardinal too… “duck” brings a smile to my face every time.
I think the problem is not we see who we thought they were, or (for the most part) that they have textbook NPD and are purposely saying things to keep us off balance and where they want us. I think the problem is that people are complicated, and have both the ability to lie and cheat and also still be in many ways the same person they were before they cheated. I’m sure some people totally break and go completely off. But I don’t think that is my H. I think this is why my H is so glommed onto the SSM as his reason for straying, because that allows him to excuse his own behavior without needing to lean on the “we’ve never been happy” rewriting of history, or being mean to me to provoke me into being a B and prove to himself he was making the right choice. He did that early on, before I even knew about the A. He was a textbook a-hole WAS, hostile, mean, picking fights. If I’d been BD-ed then I never would have even looked for this site because I would have been long gone. Somehow, in our individual journeys through all of this— and I do think DB-ing helped a lot, the 180s and validating and GALing I did all before I even found out he had “feelings” for someone else, just knew ILYB and that something was really wrong— we’ve left much of that behind. Which is frustrating both because mean H is a lot easier to hate than the H I have right now, but also because it shows that we are capable of growth as a couple.
Now I’ve spent all this time talking about H and our R. But, it definitely helps me to parse out how I feel about all of this, why i’m still here, what I’m really angry about. But I promise to keep focusing on me.
Sage… OMG. You do see me. I was overwhelmed reading your post. I am going to think on it and respond later but wanted to just say thank you.
Tonight I felt sad again. No R talks again (pretty good, you guys. Nothing since he said he was going to break it off with AP and I said uh… ok….let’s not rush into anything). he’s researching for the trip, being kind and funny but I sense he’s sad too and I think the trip planning is just his version of GALing. We both have IC appointments tomorrow…. will see what happens after that. At some point I know I’ll have to ask WTF is going on with AP if he doesn’t volunteer it, because of this trip. But I’d really rather not.
Feeling anxious and cr@ppy today. I had a meeting that turned into a potential job offer, and/or if I wasn't interested in a fulltime job, they want to find opportunities for me to consult with them. She's sending me a JD and compensation package on the weekend.
I just feel depressed about it. It would be a high-energy place to work and just knowing how my brain has been the past year, going into a D is not the time to embark on a big new job. My executive coach thinks I should actually take a step down in my current job- go to 32 hours a week- to maintain FT status and benefits but reduce my salary so as to reduce any possibility of paying spousal support to my H. She coaches many executive women and said she didn't want to scare me but she's seen it happen with a dozen of her clients. (She is also Ded and remarried, her first H was a serial cheater and she has said multiple times she knows that experience is coloring her advice, but that doesn't change her advice either.) I suspect that this job may pay substantially more than my current one and so from that aspect alone it might not be a good idea to take it.
I'm just sad and mad that he's put us in this place that I can't even be happy that I have so many job opportunities in front of me right now. I have another meeting on Friday morning about joining a big firm as an adjunct consultant. All of this would have been reason for excitement and gratitude and a little bit of the "pinch me, I *am* good at what I do and it is recognized" feelings. Instead I just feel down. Maybe something to talk about with the IC later today.
Aw, that does stink. I can totally see you being a high achiever in the workplace. The job offer validates your efforts and achievements even if you don't take it. This is such a hard place to be (((May)))
Still reading, still here, glad I could contribute "duck."
That would make me feel anxious an cr@ppy too, may. Congrats! and also I'm sorry this offer can't just be an uncomplicated awesome thing for you. It s*cks the way these situations trickle into pretty much every aspect of our lives, even our careers. It does still mean you are a bad*ss and really good at what you do. Could this be a thing where you could choose to do some consulting with them in the near-future, and maybe another opportunity for FT would arise when the timing is better for you? Would a lawyer probably be in agreement with your coach? I hope your IC session is helpful!
Also, just nodding along with you and WF here:
And that just grinds me— that you can have all that history and all these years and the children and our lives together so entwined and yet not be willing to actually work on what went wrong, be ready to throw it all away and start fresh because trying is too difficult. As I write this, I wonder if this is maybe part of the reason I’m standing— because I do believe so strongly in the foundation of what we have and it is worth fighting for… much like you just wrote on your own thread.
YEP! I know thinking about the decision to just end it, no trying, forget the history, still gets to me, and it's something I'll have to work on letting go of. Another thing not in my control.
At some point I know I’ll have to ask WTF is going on with AP if he doesn’t volunteer it, because of this trip. But I’d really rather not.
Is this something you have to do if you'd rather not? How else could this trip look that maybe feels better to you? Do you want to go on this trip together right now, regardless of how H says he is feeling, or would you rather approach it in another way? Use it as time for yourself or time with H and the kids, and then with just you and the kids?
Sage.
Wow. Your post really hit me in a lot of different ways.
Today was a hard day. Before my IC appointment I asked H if he'd changed his mind. He said "about what?" I said what you said on the weekend, wanting to break it off again with AP. He said, no, I'm still in that same place... but... I said, you haven't done anything concrete towards it? He said I just don't know what to do. I go through the whole thing in my head and I don't know how to actually do it. I'm worried that this deadline of the trip is a false deadline. I said, there needs to be some decision at some point. This can't go on forever. He slouched off looking sorry for himself.
I talked to the IC about it at length, plus more on boundaries, whether or not I'd ever be able to forgive my H anyway, this trip, the SSM... we were all over the place. She is concerned that the affair or things around it are starting to be normalized for me, even things like saying her name (for the longest time I never said her name, just that person or another person. I have said her name in conversation with H and with IC recently).
We talked about space and I said even if he breaks it off with AP I don't think I'll go on this trip for the whole time, I'd stay home at least a week-- I think we both need a break from each other. I haven't told him this, of course. I feel like by setting up this trip and booking all the hotels he's kind of setting up this THING that he'll use to convince himself he's gone too far along in planning and has to break it off with AP, and/or using the fact that he told me he was going to break it off plus all the planning to hook me back in somewhat so that I stop... idk. maybe stop bothering him with a deadline?
IC asked if he doesn't break it off and I'm not satisfied with the plan (I told her I'm NOT going through this $hit again in four more months) what would the consequences be? Would he have to MO? And again, the only time I cry... I broke down saying I can't be the one to do that. That is just such a deeply held line for me, on both sides. She said, OK.
Next week we'll work on how to keep my emotional life from sabotaging my professional life and my homework for this week is to focus on doing things that comfort me and bring me joy and to focus on me, not the kids or H. ME. (Again. I'm really glad I started seeing her because she is terrific and I always feel better after talking with her. But. this board has totally been playing that same role for me and saying the same things. You are all AWESOME.)
there is a selfish side of me that WANTS to hear H's story, or your view of it. Because years down the road, when your story is one of the DB annals, people want to read your H's side and think 'that's MY H to a T!' And then look to your voice for guidance and think 'I too can do what she did!' So please don't diminish your voice, or your H's voice in your threads. Who cares if you are perfectly DBing or doing exactly what everyone says you should. Your voice is human and real, just like all of ours. Keep posting the truth as you see it, we all (present and future) need it.
I remember thinking at some point as I was posting all the craaaaaazy stuff H was telling me that maybe the weirdness of H having no filter with me would help others, whose Hs may be in similar situations but are able to keep their traps shut about it.
I feel like there are some unusual things about my situation, it has gone on so long, but his AP lives so far away, they've only seen each other maybe 12-14 times (I counted it all up at some point but don't remember exactly what it was... something like 64 total possible days over two years that they could have been in the same city at the same time.), he started IC a year into the A. We went through the a-hole alien H and rewriting history phase and are pretty much on the other end of that. I'm confident if she lived here I would have found out about it a lot sooner and if he was sneaking around with her in real time I would have had a lot harder time with that--imagining that in the future is really hard for me-- so somehow the distance made it seem less real to me and kept me from getting as enraged as I might have otherwise. Also, I'm sure if she lived here he'd have a lot more pressure to MO-- the distance has helped him to really compartmentalize a lot. His IC has helped him a lot on some of his own issues outside of his ambivalence about AP and the M, and the MC-- both times around-- actually did help us in our communication skills, so we are talking about things we never would have talked about before, both about our R and ourselves.
All that to say... I feel like for all of these reasons, my sitch isn't playing out in quite the same way as others, and maybe part of all of that is that i get a little deeper peek into the confused head of the LBH than most. (Not that it makes a lot of sense.) I will try to keep posting about him for that reason. Though, I'm really trying not to hear from him directly about a number of things right now that I've heard enough of. He told me today he wants to try staring into each other's eyes for four minutes and then each of us telling the other their 100% truth, where they are, how they feel, what they want, etc without the other person interrupting or reacting at all. I thought about it and said I didn't want to do that right now, unless he could keep AP out of the conversation. but I wasn't interested in hearing anything about her. He didn't say anything in response.
The heart speaks the intuitive, real truth, if only the head allows it. I think that perhaps your heart wants to let things play out... is H for real this time? Is this really it? And I think it is OK to let your heart lead for a bit. Your head will always be there; you are no pansy pushover; you too are analytical and probably of a scientific background. Your head will step in and save you when it needs to. This may go against most advice out there. So take it or leave it. And obviously, do what you need to do to save your own soul, whatever path that may be.
How did you know??? I do a scientific background
(my kids like to say Mommy's a scientist!! and I'm like no, sorry. *was* a long time ago. Now I go to meetings.) I've been thinking on this a lot, the head vs the heart, ever since you posted it. And here is where I'm coming to-- in my head, I absolutely KNOW I'm going to be OK. I will get through this. I'll be the better for it. I can enjoy having my house to myself and decisions on my own and cutting H out of my life as much as possible (with my expensive sunglasses) and meeting someone new. I have zero doubts about that in my mind. I know some things will be absolutely horrible, like not having my kids with me every single night, and seeing H with AP IRL or her having any contact with the girls... that does still fill me with irrational and frightening rage, but I know I'll get over it. I don't feel like there is anything I can't do if I set my mind to it. (Also why I feel convinced we have a good shot at a strong M2.0 as he is the same way.)
And maybe that is why I'm resisting this somewhat, the totally moving on in my head. Because my heart and intuition *is* tugging me back, and saying maybe this was a relapse and not a collapse, this is the next big hurdle, why should I harden my heart now when I'll have plenty of time to do that if we go in that direction. I guess I don't totally see the need to do it protectively ahead of time. Does that make sense? I see how I *should* do it, but I don't really want to. i know if it comes to that I'll have friends and family to support me and I'll get through it. I always do. I'm just not totally ready to give up all hope right now on my H. And the children are still such a big part of it. I'm clinging onto hope that if there is a way to resolve this without them being hurt, that is the path I choose, even if it is longer and more difficult for me.
YOUR power lays in whether or not his best decision for himself is good enough for you. MAY HAS THE POWER. Remind yourself of this over and over and over again. You don't have to take him back. You can choose to take him back. Or not. MAY HAS THE POWER. (Disregard the kids in this instance... children will always be best when their primary model is at her best)
Doesn't quite feel that way yet but I'm working on it.
Can you both stay true to the truest of May's heart wishes AND not give a flying f*** what H decides in the end?
Maybe if I can continue to spin out my two paths in my head without committing to one--letting my heart still hope but releasing all my fears and anxieties about what might or might not happen... I can get to this place. I really want to. I dos still give somewhat of an F though. Baby steps.
Scout, Cardinal... thanks on the job. It's hard. I'll see what it all looks like when she sends me what she's thinking. It is really very flattering-- they're putting this job together for me -- but there also isn't really a rush as it isn't a position right now. I could probably string it out for awhile-- I asked her timing and she said she couldn't wait two years but she could wait. So maybe it could still be a possibility.
Cardinal, continuing to think on the trip. We're supposed to leave in a little over two weeks at this point. I'm thinking if things don't change (which I am desperately working on continuing to believe they won't, that pesky little hope keeps popping up as much as I shove her back down) then I'll look carefully at the itinerary and see what I want to do the most. Maybe he does the first couple weeks by himself and then takes the girls for one of the next two weeks and maybe I'll do the last week trip with the girls by myself. That way we have a month apart, we each have a fun week-long vacation with the girls. He may not be cool about the two weeks by himself, but we could also just cancel it. Too bad, so sad.
xoxo love you guys.
May, you get to make this decision (regarding the trip) and I can't help but feel all this thinking and waiting you and your H are doing - him wanting you to make a decision for him, you not wanting to make a decision for yourself until you know more about him - with the trip, with your work, with your marriage itself, is just another layer of denial.
Your H has done nothing about removing his mistress from his life decisively and strongly and committing to YOU as his wife, not the family package with children or the house or just 'not being the bad guy'. That is really not going to change in two weeks and even if he did it tomorrow, you'd be insane to believe him. So make your decision - whatever it is - on the FACT that your H is a lying cheater and either doesn't know what he wants and hasn't done in years, or isn't willing to tell the truth about what he wants as he thinks you might make life uncomfortable for him if he does.
Make your decisions about your career, your marriage and your holiday based on that.
Your decision might be 'I will wait a bit longer for this lying cheater to choose me' and 'I will move towards financial independence' and 'I will not go on the vacation and we will now be acting like cordial separated co-parents' or it might be something entirely different - you get to decide what that is. But I can't help but feel all the buck-passing and waiting that your H is inflicting on you - well, you are choosing it. There's literally nothing he can say or do or pull out of the bag in the next fortnight that is going to substantially change the truth about where you are in your marriage.
What other information do you need to make your decisions?
Edited to add: I guess what I am saying it, that I kind of agree with your H - the trip is an artificial deadline. Or at least it is if you inflict it on him rather than take it as one for yourself. He's very likely to tell you whatever you want to hear about ending it with his mistress so he can have what he wants - a happy family on the trip. And that means nothing, because as you know he will lie and cheat to get to have all of what he wants. A deadline is not artificial if you set it for yourself and you can make your decision today, tomorrow, in two years time or just the very second you are tired of the status quo.
May, I havent been posting lately but I have been following your thread daily and wanted you to know I've been thinking about you so much.
I hate the fact that H is still in his own perpetual state of limbo and whilst you have that glimmer of hope within you, and will not make his decisions for him, you remain in a perpetual state of limbo as well. I dont have any worldly advice - you've had so much great advice already and your head is fully screwed on. I've been thinking about your a-hole H and see someone very, very lost. I think I actually believe that deep-down he does not want a R with AP, (regardless of whether he's binned her off or not at this stage). I'm wondering if you - like me - have witnessed such deep and significant transformations within ourselves that we find it hard to let go of someone if we believe that they too might experience that inner transformation/lightbulb moment.
Something needs to break the cycle May - I know you know that. What is going to be the catalyst for real change? Do you think you have a really good opportunity here, on a plate? If H takes the kiddos away and you choose not to go, he gets to realise that the fantasy S/D does not and cannot exist. He may also realise that it is not so bad. That may be enough for him to reach a conclusion. I know this sounds like it is all about H, and perhaps it is, because you know that you wont pull that trigger and he has to be the one to make the decision. But if there is no change then the limbo will continue. Perhaps you need to decide that you will not go, no conditions, no boundaries, just "I dont want to go and nothing you can say at this time will change my mind". (Is there actually anything he could say or do right now that would make you feel loved/secure?) You are empowering yourself by simply removing yourself from the trip. Otherwise I see a very painful limbo holiday - you will sleep in the same bed and act like mum and dad for the kids, but it will be fake, and that will hurt you.
Sending hugs May x
p.s I too have never been able to refer to EAP by name, only "your friend" or "that woman"!
p.s I too have never been able to refer to EAP by name, only "your friend" or "that woman"!
Be careful with this thinking. While we like to focus our anger on the OP, your problem isn't with her. It is with him. I found using my W's EAP name was freeing to me. It made me realize that this person didn't care about me and I didn't are about them. Therefore there was nothing personal there. It was them wanting to be with my W. And my W is where the issue was for opening that door even if just a crack.
But I can't help but feel all the buck-passing and waiting that your H is inflicting on you - well, you are choosing it. There's literally nothing he can say or do or pull out of the bag in the next fortnight that is going to substantially change the truth about where you are in your marriage.
I know. I 100% know I am choosing this course right now by not doing anything decisive. I am putting myself through this simply by just still being here.
But. I guess it is because it seems to me the main alternative-- telling him to go and I want a D-- is not something I can do authentically, yet. What is far more important to me right now than the $hitty way I feel today is to be able to look back at this time and know, in my heart of hearts, that I did everything I could to save this M and protect my children. I know that in many cases the children are happier after because of the conflict and stress in the MR, etc. I'm not trying to blow smoke here but I know I am a really good mom and I can separate what is best for me from what is best for the children. I know those two things are connected, too-- there will be a tipping point where my parenting is affected by my own trauma-- but it hasn't happened yet. And the one thing that stops me cold, that breaks my voice when I try to talk about it, is the idea of being the one to inflict the S on the children. I just.... can't. Maybe I'll get to a place where I can. If I start to see myself erode or my ability to be present and a good parent be significantly affected, I'll need to reevaluate. But this-- being the one to pull the trigger-- for me, is simply not something I can do and be able to reconcile my own identity as a mom and my values with my actions. I wish it were different. Maybe something I can work on with IC.
So. For whatever reason, that path is not open to me, today. Maybe it is denial? If I spent enough time thinking about his actions and what a f-up he is, how unhappy I am M to him, maybe it would either start to affect my parenting our the situation here (maybe I could pick a lot of fights?) such that I'd see it would be better for the kids to S? Or seeing the inevitability of it so why prolong the agony? I am kind of already in that latter boat, mostly, but it still isn't enough to allow me to make the call.
What other information do you need to make your decisions?
I don't know. Will think on this one.
I've been thinking about your a-hole H and see someone very, very lost. I think I actually believe that deep-down he does not want a R with AP, (regardless of whether he's binned her off or not at this stage). I'm wondering if you - like me - have witnessed such deep and significant transformations within ourselves that we find it hard to let go of someone if we believe that they too might experience that inner transformation/lightbulb moment.
I think I believe that too. Otherwise he still wouldn't be here. Or he does want one, but only in the imaginary/sisters wives way, because he doesn't want it enough to actually walk. It is pretty pathetic. For her, too. And yes, I definitely feel like I know that it is possible to rediscover your love for your spouse because it happened to me, just like you.
Something needs to break the cycle May - I know you know that. What is going to be the catalyst for real change? Do you think you have a really good opportunity here, on a plate?
Maybe. I did, until he first did the 5-day thing and then decided he wanted to go all in and said he was ending it (again). Now that has managed to throw me for a loop and I'm still collecting myself. I need to think on the various options. I am still not OK with him taking the kids for more than a week away from me. Sorry. I don't think I'll ever be-- I wasn't when we were happily M and I'm definitely not now. F that. Could I say let's cancel the first two weeks (we could still get part-time distance learning those two weeks for the kids), and we each take them for one of the other two weeks? I could do that.
On the S part... I feel like most of my tribe here (excepting WF) has had the experience of S and it wasn't usually by the LBWs own volition. I completely believe that once I get to that place, I'll be so much more equipped to deal with everything in front of me without him in my space all day long. And maybe that is what he needs too, to see what life is like outside of this family and house and without me. I honestly believe I would be scared but embrace it right now if he came and said that is what he wanted. I am just unable to be the one to do it.
He ordered this book and was reading it last night... I asked him what he was reading and he tried to hide it from me and then showed me. Said I was the one always reading things and then sharing it with him so he wanted to do the same (and reiterated that he's still reading the Glass book too). He said he hoped it would help him make a decision-- it purports to clear out all the myths surrounding M and D such that you can make a clear-eyed decision on whether to work on your M or move on. It was called Sacred Cows and is basically a rah-rah book for D, "busting" all the myths of why D is so bad. I read through it this morning and was so annoyed. Written by two people who are both Ded (and happily remarried to each other with four children) and honestly feels the entire time they are trying to justify their decisions. Maybe reading this book will give him what it takes to walk. IDK.
So a few thoughts.
She is concerned that the affair or things around it are starting to be normalized for me, even things like saying her name (for the longest time I never said her name, just that person or another person. I have said her name in conversation with H and with IC recently).
Hey you know that Beyonce song 'Sorry'? How about the line so and so "with the good hair"? Let's just say Beyonce and I have more in common than I thought. And you better believe I'm singing that line every chance I get. May, I want you to look at this from a different perspective than IC says. And maybe you can give a little push back on her if you feel like this makes sense to you. Saying her name isn't normalization. It's like being Harry Potter and being willing to say Voldemort. A name only has power if you give it power. IMHO you saying her name now is taking back some of that power you let her have over you.
I'm confident if she lived here I would have found out about it a lot sooner and if he was sneaking around with her in real time I would have had a lot harder time with that--imagining that in the future is really hard for me-- so somehow the distance made it seem less real to me and kept me from getting as enraged as I might have otherwise.
You're smart. You would've found out much sooner just like I did. I knew what was up in weeks. And yeah you do have to confront your rage head on when it's in your lap. In front of your face. In front of your children. When acquaintances are texting and sending pics to you at 2am asking you who's the wh**e hanging all over your husband at the club, at the bar, at a restaurant you've been dying to try. You have to breath fire. And then decide if you're going to live in that or not. I wasn't ever a beggar or a pleader. That's not really in my wheel house. But I did rage. Full blown had to have bff talk me out of more than one illegal act, rage. You have been kind of bubbling up under the surface for as long as I've been around you on here and I wonder if you've taken and time to truly be enraged about all this with or without AP here. I'm not saying taking a baseball bat to H's car which I came very very close to, full disclosure. More than once if I'm going to be honest here. But taken the time to scream and throw things and cry or punch or break stuff. Have you had any outlet in this time to funnel all that anger bubbling under the surface? Or do you just try to quell the beast?
He told me today he wants to try staring into each other's eyes for four minutes and then each of us telling the other their 100% truth, where they are, how they feel, what they want, etc without the other person interrupting or reacting at all. I thought about it and said I didn't want to do that right now, unless he could keep AP out of the conversation. but I wasn't interested in hearing anything about her. He didn't say anything in response.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, omg I'm so sorry. I laughed for like 2 whole minutes. Is he for real with this? If my H walked up to me and said that the first thing out of my mouth would be GTFOH. I can't with this. Girl, I have crystals, and candles, I was heavily in to Iyengar yoga for years. I was a massage therapist many many moons ago, but seriously? 4 minutes staring at each other. Staring at each other and telling "their truth." I can't, I just can't. This is too much even for me.
Scout, Cardinal... thanks on the job. It's hard. I'll see what it all looks like when she sends me what she's thinking. It is really very flattering-- they're putting this job together for me -- but there also isn't really a rush as it isn't a position right now. I could probably string it out for awhile-- I asked her timing and she said she couldn't wait two years but she could wait. So maybe it could still be a possibility.
I know what your executive coach said. But I'm with Allison's thought process on this. If you're being offered opportunities to become financial independent and afford that house on your own, make those moves, no fear. There is an argument here for your attorney that you now make more because you had to because he's a cheater and couldn't make up his mind. There's not a huge chance even with 50/50 that you're going to have to pay out alimony with an income increase shortly before filing. Just as an FYI.
Thinking of you often xoxoxoxo
What it looks like to me, May, is that he's ignoring you again and manipulating you to get what he wants.
You said you didn't want to go on the trip with him as a family, but after some thought, you decided he'd take the girls alone for some time away, and you might do that yourself too.
Since then, he's decided he doesn't want his mistress any more, but he hasn't taken any actual action to make that happen, and he's going full speed ahead to plan a trip you've already told him you don't want.
He is totally ignoring what you have said, has fed you a line, taken no action to back it up, and is pretending all is well in terms of he having what he immediately wants.
Choosing a D and choosing this trip and choosing to let him ride rough shod over a decision you've already made and communicated to him are totally different things.
Just dropping in to recommend a book called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay' to help you with your ambivalence.
Why the F is he reading and sharing a book about successful D when he has ostensibly recommitted to the marriage?
He wants to go. You want him to go. Neither is willing to rip the bandaid off. So limbo will continue.
He told me today he spoke to her this morning and told her he wants to cut it off and work on the M. That he hasn't decided 100% but is close to 100%. He told her his fear is that we'll try and it won't work, in six months or a year I'll decide I don't want his sad a$$ anymore and then he'll have lost everything. He told her he thinks its a 50-50 chance that that happens. (Funny, because he's told *me* that he thinks the chances of us working out is much smaller than that. But I said nothing.) Apparently she was like why would you take that chance? I was v confused and asked for clarification... because you know that it is 100% likely you'll be happy with her? He said, yes. I said well then WHY AREN'T YOU JUST CHOOSING THAT? He doesn't know. He's a mess. He left it at he doesn't know if he'll ever speak to her again and is all freaked out. I walked away to go get on a zoom call. I'm just rolling my eyeballs at this point.
WF, the rage. I'm scared of the rage inside of me. Truly. So no, I haven't let it out. I might see if we have a rage room in my city or maybe just figure out some $hit to break and break it or get a punching bag as Scout suggested. I have written out some pretty horrible things I'd like to say in my journal which does feel good in the meantime.
Also, glad I could provide some comic relief
The staring into each other's eyes was something our MC made us do a couple of times, which actually made me cry like crazy. And I feel like the truths thing comes from AP maybe. It isn't really him. He's on this "I need to honor my authentic self" "these are my truths" kick that I'm confident comes from AP and their "radical transparency." VOMIT.
Alison, I did say I wanted to go on the trip *if* I felt confident that things were totally over with her forever. I said I didn't want to dictate what that looked like but things would have to be different this time in order for me to feel comfortable, including mechanisms put into place that she couldn't throw bombs at us down the line like she did this last time. Then we didn't really speak of it again until yesterday when I was like... the trip is like two weeks away and I don't see any progress here so.... I do think he is being manipulative in terms of putting the trip back on and getting me back in the place where he's more comfortable (ie not proceeding as though we are Sing). But, I did say I wanted to go on this trip under certain conditions. It will be up to me to pull the plug as it isn't looking like my conditions as I'd set them out have any likelihood of being met, which is what i'm working on right now, what that looks like, etc.
Another question-- I'm thinking of drafting up a written agreement proposing what I would be asking for in terms of financial and child custody stuff and sitting down with him to review it. What do you guys think? If we got a post-nup in place, I'd feel a lot better about pursuing another job right now. Though figuring out how to do well at that job when I'm clearly not working all day but hanging out on these boards instead is going to be an issue
Just dropping in to recommend a book called Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay' to help you with your ambivalence.
Why the F is he reading and sharing a book about successful D when he has ostensibly recommitted to the marriage?
He wants to go. You want him to go. Neither is willing to rip the bandaid off. So limbo will continue.
Hi Scout,
I saw that book on Amazon last night-- will pick it up.
He *isn't* recommitting to the M, really. He's still freaking out. He said that with his mouth but not with his heart. He thinks that book will help him decide. Apparently he has wanted to get it for a long time but just picked it up. Also, it is framed as a book that isn't a celebration of D but as simply clearing out the myths of D, like "it is bad for the children" and "love is a verb not a feeling" and "marriages are hard work" blah blah blah. SO, maybe, ostensibly he saw it as a way to get out of ambivalence and stop being scared of some of the things he's scared of with D.
But when you read it, it is 100% someone trying to justify their own decision. There's this whole section on what well-meaning friends or family might say to you, like "marriage is hard work" and then has what that person is really thinking, which is "my marriage sVcks, why should you get out of it when I can't?" It is really a piece of work. Gross, really. I get that maybe it acts as a balancing act to what CL calls the reconciliation industrial complex. And, truth be told, I am spending a good amount of time with CL so if that is what it takes for me to say buh-bye and he needs someone to tell him it is OK to have fallen out of love with someone and once that happens you have no choice but to follow your own happiness, then OK.
Another question-- I'm thinking of drafting up a written agreement proposing what I would be asking for in terms of financial and child custody stuff and sitting down with him to review it. What do you guys think? If we got a post-nup in place, I'd feel a lot better about pursuing another job right now. Though figuring out how to do well at that job when I'm clearly not working all day but hanging out on these boards instead is going to be an issue
Yes, do this. Show him if you must, but don't ask for his input. "This is what I will be pursuing as a separation agreement." D is not a team sport! You should not ask a man you cannot trust to make promises he might not keep. Figure out what is fair and then pursue it through legal channels because you are entitled to it. He will be most agreeable while he is feeling guilty. As time goes on and the weight of his decisions presses down on him, there's a good chance he will turn angry again to justify what he has done. Ask me how I know
By all means, draft up a separation agreement. Do it with your L and have your L send it to him. You don't collaborate with your partner on a separation or divorce, you act independently and negotiate through third parties. Trying to collaborate with him or showing him something you've worked out on your own is going to come across as contact-seeking - wanting to shock him out of his reality, get him to start acting different, etc etc. It won't work, and even if it does work, you're still stuck in this game you and he are playing out together at the moment. If you're going to do it, do it through a L and refuse to speak to him about it - he can communicate how sad he is about not being able to have sex with one woman and enjoy the domestic labour and approval of his wife while he does it, how endlessly difficult that is for him, via an email to your L.
The conversation he had with his mistress is not him breaking it off. It's an excuse for more contact where he can talk about how impossible all this is for him and how awful it is, having two women hanging on his every move. The fact he even told you about the way the conversation went is proof of his. He could have texted or emailed her and said he was done, no contact. Instead it's just more of the drama he seems to choose to be embroiled in. It's very teenage behaviour on his part and even without how disgusting it is that he is cheating on you, incredibly unattractive to my mind.
Have you worked out what happens when you say a quiet, respectful and consistent no to him yet? No matter what he says or does next?
Thanks Scout, Alison.
I'm not ready to bring Ls into it. In my state, a legal separation is the same amount of work and cost and process as a D decree, and then it only lasts for two years. You either pursue D within those two years (same process and cost again) or if you let the two years lapse, you're still M and the separation agreement is no longer valid. Neither L recommended it-- it seems to be either you go ahead with full on D or not. The S agreement just doubles the work and the cost. A post-nup agreement, though, could just be signed by the two of us and notarized. Both Ls recommended that H have an attorney review the post-nup before he signs it, as if it is perceived to be too much in my favor he could argue that he was duped into signing it without a L, but I'm not sure I'm ready to escalate this all to the point of having his L talk to my L and how much that is all going to cost.
However, I'm glad I've done my research and I know what I'd want to propose. I think there might be value in writing it up in the form of an agreement so that I have gone through that process and have it written up. I have also downloaded all the D forms and filled most of them out, gotten copies of financial docs, etc. so that when it is time I can be as prepared as possible and keep the L fees down. But I'm not there yet. (I mean, I should at least be able to tell him to GTFO of the house before I call in the attorneys, right?!?? And I still can't even do that!!)
So far, I've been pretty noncommittal when he's said things to me about breaking it off or whatever. I did say to him today, so should we cancel our trip? He said NO! I'm not in contact with her. Why would we cancel? I said, haha, that isn't good enough. If we're going to do this, we are going to do it differently this time. He asked me what I suggested. I said I wasn't going to lay it all out for him. But I have in the past so he knows (deleting all contact info, social follows, blocking numbers, etc.). It isn't worth saying again. I agree that it just makes him feel like he has two women fighting over him. it is very teenage romance. He is SO MOPEY and over-the-top, very clearly wanting some attention about how sad and depressed he is. (You are right, Alison. This is not attractive behavior.)
Later, he came to sit in my office to say he's scared of three things. He's scared I only want him to "win" in some fashion. He's scared I'm doing this too much for the kids and not because of us. He's scared that I won't forgive him and/or will realize I can never trust him again and ditch him in a year and he'll be all alone. I said, I've been thinking about all those things too. He said, I think I have never given us a chance and in order to do that I have to give her up forever. I said, yeah. (OMG the other totally annoying thing is that he feels so guilty about her, she is so sad and lost without him. It is all I can do to not make a face. It is soooooo playing to his ego to feel like her heart is broken forever. Meanwhile I'm looking at him as he says this with I KNOW written all over my face REALLY?!??. Give me an f-ing break. He got all defensive, she doesn't know what to do. I said, she's 34. She'll be fine. She never has to see you again. He said, you had a BABY at 34. That isn't so young. I just rolled my eyes. She's a big girl. She chose to get into a two year long distance affair with a married man. Surprise! it didn't work out! I didn't say this out loud though.
I do think I've made some improvements, definitely, in holding to my boundaries. I don't feel sorry for him and I know that comes across clearly. I am continuing to detach. His histrionics aren't affecting me except for me to roll my eyes inwardly.
Why would I want him back? Assuming he makes that choice? I think it is because I do still hold out hope for what we could have, assuming we get past this. He said in the conversation about his fears-- if we D you'll find someone else. You'll probably be happier. I said, I don't doubt that. But here's the thing (though I didn't say this to him)-- no-one else could ever be the full package, because they wouldn't be the father of my children. I'd always have that regret AND plus would have to share them with him forever.
Anyway. I'm not holding my breath on any of this. Continuing to look at puppies, plan for the positives of being on my own, think about what I want to do about the trip. (Alison, I'm just to the part in your thread where you got your puppy. Sounds like so much fun.) He said tonight "let's plan the trip." which I think was supposed to be code for "I've made up my mind." Again. I said nothing. Then he said, I'm really depressed. I said, sorry. Then we ate dinner and had a fun night with the kids without really interacting much between the two of us.
Later, he came to sit in my office to say he's scared of three things.
Noooooooope. Don’t validate the mindf*ck channels. Your H is stuck on self-pity again - time to find the remote!
“H, I’m very busy putting together a post-nup/separation agreement/personal budget. Please give me some space.”
Don’t mention this because you want to scare him, mention it because you do not give a F what he thinks.
It’s honestly obscene that he continues to unload his feelings about his twu wuv onto you. Every time you entertain this nonsense, even just by listening to it, you give credence to his belief that he is the victim in this situation. It’s hard to understand what is motivating you to continue participating in these conversations. He’s not exactly coming up with anything new to say beyond the usual blameshifting and snarky potshots and pathetic whimpering. You are obviously out of his league but he’s still got you convinced somehow that he’s the prize!
Let the two cheaters go live their sexy lifestyle of radical transparency or whatever f*cking dumbsh*t thing they said. Sometimes I really wish we could swear here. If he stays, you’ll be the chief of marriage police for the rest of your life. Constant vigilance. Trust but verify. Random inspections. Are you prepared for that? I suspect some people enjoy having that power over their repentant cheaters, but I don’t think that’s you. Unfortunately, it’s either that or put your faith in a proven lying cheater and try to forget that you can’t trust him.
What ratio of wanting him to stay/go do you feel right now? 80/20, 50/50, 30/70?
Good work being prepared with the paperwork in advance.
I did say I wanted to go on the trip *if* I felt confident that things were totally over with her forever.
Okay. Well, I think realistically there's absolutely nothing he can do in the next two weeks that is going to make that happen for you. I'd be surprised, to be honest, even if he put in 100% of commitment right now if you were able to feel like that after a year or two.
Piecing is long difficult work, involves risk, and your confidence in his honesty is not going to return for years, if ever.
He told me today he spoke to her this morning and told her he wants to cut it off and work on the M.
He's said that to her before, apparently. And he had to have sex with her and lie to you about it in order to do his proper goodbye. I wonder how many of these episodes he's going to need?
Knowing that his words and actions mean pretty much nothing, and knowing that you're not ready to get the lawyers in, knowing that you've already been clear with him about your boundaries, knowing that if there is to be a D you want your H to instigate it so he can be the bad guy, and knowing that when you indulge his need for attention and drama you are rewarding the status quo, what is your plan of action?
I think your H has behaved absolutely atrociously and continues to do so - but I don't think you're his victim anymore, I think you've really elegantly devised a scenario where you will spin around in this game with him for months if not years and be able to hold him responsible for it.
I am so sorry to be hard here: I say it bluntly because I cannot believe this current situation is good for your heart and I want you to see that you could get out of it the second you choose to. You don't have to divorce him. You don't have to leave the house, even. But you could let your no be your no and refuse to give his drama any more oxygen. Why don't you? Do you know?
Hi Scout, I know it maybe doesn't come through here but I am waaaaay better at not engaging in these conversations. What used to be long emotional dumps on me are now more like informational blips of information. Generally tbh I would prefer to know the factual stuff-- he talked to her or not, what he said, etc-- I just don't want to hear about his feelings for her. I don't give a $hit about her being sad and he knows that... he said that about her being sad, I looked at him, he said "I know you don't care" I rolled my eyes. So, although I'm not telling him to f off as soon as he opens his mouth, I definitely feel much stronger and more in control in these conversations as they're happening, and they are very truncated compared to before. So, some progress though I realize I'm not to the point where say Alison is in terms of her H. I have a long ways to go. But I still have also come a long ways from where I was.
Also, I know last time around I was in my heart more excited and hopeful when he said he was breaking it off with her and to trust him to do it his own way, blah blah blah. Even if I was trying to act detached and all that. I am definitely much further along on the detachment path this time around than I was last time. SO, again, I'm not 100% there and telling him I'm too busy to talk because I'm creating my new life without him. But, I'm not gooey inside either.
And.... he's not the prize. I know this. He has a lot of faults, beyond the cheating. Many of the beefs I had with him all these years are much improved, now, though, so I guess that is a good thing no matter what, whether for the girls or for him, for me as a co-parent or for his next partner. He is far more invested in being a good father than he was before the A as well. I think I said during the spring/lockdown when he had broken it off with her the last time and I thought we were working on the MR that if I had never known about the A, I would have been thrilled as here was the H I had been waiting for all those years. Kind, thoughtful, funny, going out of his way to do nice things, taking on far more of the household responsibilities, supportive of my career, not really bothering me for sex. So I'm coming off of that experience too and it is hard for me to erase that and not have a little part of me think "maybe this is a relapse and not a collapse" in my head, the extinction burst before he recommits. IDK. But that is there. And he is the father of my children and will always be that. I guess this is something I need to work on with my IC, why I'm willing to put up with this, why I want to try with him even in the face of all the evidence that shows he's not a committed partner on the other side.
I do think that the winning might be a buried motivator for me, one I'm not really proud of, but is there. I've been very, very fortunate in my life and I can't really point to much, if anything, that I really wanted and didn't get. Rejection is not something that sits well with me. So I am a little worried that I'm willing to mark time here long enough for her to be out of the picture just because I am motivated by not wanting that-- him swanning around with her-- vs motivated by wanting him to stay. All things I need to think through.
Alison, if I have a plan of action it is to give myself some time to figure out what it is that I want, sit with these new feelings and knowledge of my own manipulative behaviors and motivations and listen to them. I know that doesn't sound very actionable. You're probably right that I've created a trap for myself. I'm trying to mentally detach myself from the drama side and focus on me. And I do feel like I've made progress here, even if not a ton.
Scout, where am I in terms of wanting him to stay or go? I'd like to say 50-50-- I'm building paths in both directions that make sense to me. But to be candid with you guys and myself, it is probably more like 60-40 wanting him to stay. Maybe 70-30, even. Again, not sure what all motivates that-- how much of it is what *I* want vs what I think is best for my children or trying to avoid what I *don't* want. I think at least I'm being more honest with myself, right now, and spending time dealing with my anger rather than push it down. I think my anger is driving the I don't want him to ride off into the sunset with her feelings.
Alison, why can't I simply not engage at all? I don't know. I am not programmed that way. I can hold it for a few days, maybe a week, and then I just don't have the motivation any more. That being said, I am giving it way less O2 than I was a couple of weeks ago, definitely waaaay less than I did back in the fall. So, there's that.
The update I have now is that the "we can plan our trip" meant "AP has blocked me on WhatsApp and Instagram" and assuming, but he hasn't tried, text/phone/email. (Apparently when you block someone on WhatsApp their contact disappears.) He's depressed, feels like a friend has died. He wanted to come to talk to me about it. I said I'm not the right person to process this with you-- you should try your IC. So he got an extra session with her and is talking to her right now. I did tell him that her blocking him really isn't enough for me to want to reengage with him. And I know know know he is nowhere close to being in a mental state to actually want to reengage with me, if he ever is. And just because she blocked him yesterday means absolutely nothing about what happens tomorrow or a month from now or a year from now. (Though I do get a petty enjoyable little snicker out of a week ago her telling him "I'll wait for you forever" and then a week later guess that wasn't the case, was it. See, not sure how much of my motivation is here vs. really wanting him. Someone took my toy. It was MINE and I want it back, thank you very much... I know he thinks this about me. I don't think that is a large percentage of my motivation, but I also don't think it is zero percent.)
Anyway. So nothing has really changed. He feels very sorry for himself. He isn't taking responsibility for his actions. He is telling himself he's giving up this big thing and his chance at spending his life with someone who truly loves him and only wants to make him happy for the children because I would selfishly make his life and the children's lives miserable if he left me. All reasons I should kick his cheating, lying, @ss to the curb. And yet. I'm just not there.
Journaling.
Seems like many of us are sad, today. I am too. I feel like I'm the last one left standing in some children's game, holding the bag, and looking inside to see there is nothing there that I want. I don't *want* a half-@ssed H pretending to "try" for the sake of the children. I don't want to be in this same place a few months from now again. I only want to engage if he's going to engage too, wholly. And he simply isn't there and I have no idea if he ever will be. And yet I am still not able to be the one to walk.
I've been thinking what if I approached him really calmly and simply said, if you want a D, you can have one. I promise to be a good co-parent. Would that be enough? I can't/won't promise to be friends so I won't say that. I don't think I've ever been the one to bring it up-- I've only said you are free to go in the context of a conversation in response to him-- but I also know he doesn't believe I really mean it when I say it, and/or he believes my non-friendship "threat" would be so damaging to the children he won't call my bluff on that one. Anyway. I thought about this a lot in the middle of the night last night when I couldn't sleep. I almost thought I could do it. But in the light of day, not so much. I think I have so much fear and anger centered around him running off into the sunset with AP and the idea of her ever meeting my children, or him having a baby with her. I really, really don't want that to happen. Again, not sure exactly what is driving that, but it is a big blocker for me.
He's back in charm mode. After his call with IC yesterday he sat down and asked if we could just have a nice night together. I didn't really respond as I wasn't feeling it. He clowned around until I laughed. We watched a movie with the kids, ate dinner, a neighbor stopped by and we sat outside and chatted. This morning, he let me sleep in and cooked a beautiful big breakfast. Tonight he is all excited about the trip, came to tell me some things just fell into place with the lodgings (I think I mentioned before, he has booked all these hotels he knows I'll like. Including one I have wanted to stay at for years and years and is usually really expensive and hard to book but now has space and incredibly cheap rates.) I heard him on the phone "me, my wife, and our two children" booking something... and feel just anger and sadness and all the rest at hearing him say those words with such normalcy when he's blown everything up.
And, of course I want to go on this GD trip. It was my idea. Now it has all the places I want to stay. (Yes, I see the manipulation there.) And yet I just made a list of what would need to happen in order for me to want to go-- Alison, accepting that nothing could possibly happen to make me feel secure she is out of our lives forever, but blocking her number and email and deleting the WhatsApp app on his phone would be good starts, at least for the next month. I mean, we're still sleeping in the same bed here at home and playing happy family, so what's the difference in traveling? The main reason I didn't want to go was that I didn't want to be worried he was still in touch with her and felt like that low level anxiety would significantly detract from my enjoyment of the trip. And then yes, I used the excuse of the trip to make an arbitrary deadline. If that worry was removed for me with blocking her contacts and transparency with his phone, I think I would relax and be able to enjoy exploring these fun places with my kids, even if H were there. IDK. Nothing is set in stone at this point and if we waste some money and don't go or we switch off with the kids, that is an OK option as well.
Reposting from Wooba's thread:
may - I thought about you today. Your H also seems to be acting friendly and being a good father and all that - might be a good time to D now while he is confused and feeling extremely guilty, than to wait until he decided to act differently. Not that he will, but there is always a possibility. just my 2 cents.
I've been thinking the same thing about the leverage I have in moving now on D vs later. However, I also think that at least with my H, the likelihood (especially if I was at all contentious, got Ls involved, etc) is that the "deal" we've been talking about where I get the house and primary physical custody, was always too good to be true and it wouldn't end up that way once we got down to brass tacks. That is one of the reasons i've been thinking about a more informal post-nup to get things in writing now. My biggest thing is time with the kids, but I also know that custody arrangements can be altered at any time, so even if he is OK with this arrangement now, it is likely to change in the future. And I honestly can't imagine him being OK with less time with the kids when he comes to his senses. he's just saying this now out of guilt.
I've been thinking about this a lot... am I just setting myself up for a worse outcome a few months or a year down the road? Where this limbo just keeps going until I finally say enough, and H is no longer guilt-ridden and AP has moved on and he's angry and vindictive? I'm worried about this. Is my stubbornness about wanting to know I tried everything setting myself up for a worse outcome, only delaying the inevitable in terms of my R with H but also will he then blame me for losing AP too? (yes. the answer to that is yes.)
So, is there any realistic likelihood of me getting exactly what I would want in a D now? As I said in Wooba's thread, I don't really think so in terms of the children, which is my highest priority. Maybe in terms of the house. I do think I could get the house if we D now and maybe that wouldn't be the case down the line. In terms of the financial arrangement, I really don't know if I could actually get in a D what I would ask for in an S agreement. The second L said she thought a post-nup would be a good idea even if we decided to work on our R... maybe that is something I should pursue regardless.
Anyway, this line of thought has me thinking about what I'm risking in terms of continuing this limbo state. To date, I hadn't thought I was risking much except for time and the ability to move on more quickly if we split. However, I don't think there is any realistic chance I'd get what I'm asking for and what he's saying he'd give me now even if I filed tomorrow, unless I played really sweet and nice and friendly until the ink was dry. And I honestly don't know if I can do that. So, there's that. But I'm continuing to think on this part. It has been bothering me a lot the last couple of days.
I wonder May, if you can make some decisions now that would get you towards a good divorce or a good marriage? I think those decisions are fundamentally the same - respect for yourself, clear communication, respect for the autonomy of others, honest about your needs and desires, etc etc. You don't have to decide what path you are on yet.
And in your situation, I think for either a good marriage or a good divorce, the pair of you need to experience you saying NO to your husband's manipulation, and him accepting that.
May - you are quite brave!!! And you have a logical thought process AND I understand your fears. Your fears of pulling the trigger yourself and then not being able to take it back.
So - ask yourself? What snapped his head BACK to the AP? Fear of loss.
He may have some fears in losing you but he has a of lot more ropes attached to you than AP - kids, shared life, history, financials, etc. In his head these "ropes" will keep you bound no matter what he decides to do with AP. That's his safety net.
I'm just like you. Do I pull the trigger and live with the regret if I had just held out a little longer he would have come around? In pulling the trigger does he suddenly have a WTH moment that I called his bluff and moved on?
I think we both need to drop the rope... let them go to get them back...
And, yes above all else you should adopt the mindset of being the best co-parent ever!!! This doesn't mean you have to be bff's... it does mean you have to be friendly. But you can find kindness and joy in sharing your kids and their accomplishments. It doesn't mean you are allowing the door to be open for him to ask how you are doing... and vice versa. You can maintain an air of mystery and keep all contact related to business items only. Heck, you can even sit next to each other at events if you choose... even an occasion of going out to pizza afterwards, but that doesn't mean you have to let him in to your world outside your kids.
As much as you love your kids don't be afraid to pull back while in the same house. Let him have movie night with them and you go for a walk, go visit a friend, go take a bubble bath... then vice versa - you take the kids to the park without him, etc. You can still do things together but it might help him to see the path that lies ahead should he leave.
May I want you to challenge yourself to do 3 things for yourself each day --- they can be simple!!! Like write in your gratitude journal, take a walk, sleep in, DON'T do the dishes, etc. Make a mental note of 3 things May did for simple joy for May.
Peace and Love.
Thanks Alison, KC!
KC-- nice to see you here!
I agree with you that he is motivated by fear of loss. That is definitely a dynamic between him and AP and also between the two of us, when I start to move away. And you're totally right about him having ropes to me that can act as a safety net, though I'd always thought about it in the other direction-- I will never get to have a clean break from him. However,
Your fears of pulling the trigger yourself and then not being able to take it back.
This isn't where I am. My fear of walking today would be that five years from now, my younger daughter would be acting out and I would be filled with regret that if only I had tried harder with her dad we would still be M and she would be better off. (I'm more worried about D8 than D10, not sure why.) When I walk, it won't be trying to call his bluff. It will be for good. Right now, I can't imagine wanting him back if he leaves-- to me, for whatever reason, that is the bright line.
On the co-parenting thing... what you describe is like my worst nightmare. I don't want to have pizza with him or share in the kids accomplishments. I want to have as little to do with him as humanly possible. I know that is probably not possible but especially if AP is in the picture, I want to see him from the car at kid exchanges and that is about it. I want to be on the other side of the room at events buffered by all my friends who are glaring daggers at him and he ends up leaving early because no-one will talk to him. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. (And there is the not-so-nice May coming out.) But I simply don't want to have anything to do with him in that situation. And maybe that will change with time-- it probably will-- but that is how I feel, very very very strongly.
We have been doing things apart with the kids, as well as together, though being together 24-7 with Covid is pretty nuts. We had a good day today and I do think I did three things for myself, thank you for suggesting it! I slept in, took the girls to the craft store and shopped a little bit, read a novel, and cooked an amazing dinner I'd been planning for a couple of days (sous vide short ribs). Let H put the girls to bed and enjoying a nice beer. (so five!) no R talks, no trip talks, just regular exchanges all day.
I wonder May, if you can make some decisions now that would get you towards a good divorce or a good marriage? I think those decisions are fundamentally the same - respect for yourself, clear communication, respect for the autonomy of others, honest about your needs and desires, etc etc. You don't have to decide what path you are on yet.
And in your situation, I think for either a good marriage or a good divorce, the pair of you need to experience you saying NO to your husband's manipulation, and him accepting that.
Alison, I think I can do this, at least partially. I've been thinking on this all day. My H used to have a rage channel. it was his primary one he'd default to when he got frustrated or angry, and would always blow the blame off on someone else (usually me). It would make me crazy and I'd go nuts back and tell him I refused to be treated like this and then we'd end up screaming at each other and I'd nurse a grudge for days. (This was part of what fed into the SSM.)
About a year ago, after reading DB, I simply stopped responding to this when it would happen. I wouldn't yell or get angry. I might say calmly "don't speak to me like that" and would remove myself from the situation. And... it hardly ever, ever happens now. When it does, he catches himself right away and apologizes. I also am OK with say a vocal frustration (like GD it!! if he drops something) whereas before even that would trigger me.
So, I feel like I need to do the same thing with the self-pity channel. The charm channel... that's kind of his default and I can't say I hate it. But the self-pity and self-absorbed channels, whining about AP, blaming me and the SSM, refusing to take responsibility-- that I can turn off. I feel I've been much less responsive in the last couple of weeks than ever before. I just need to turn it up a notch and be more consistent. (I used to be an animal trainer so I actually should be better at this than I am.)
The other thing I think I need to do more of (though this is probably not DB-ing, but if it gets me where I need to be authentically, so be it) is to be more honest about my needs and desires rather than shoving them down for the sake of not acting like I'm pursuing him or controlling him or whatever. I know this is a fine line, especially since he is quite alert to anything that smacks of May control. And, also, I do think our R post children and prior to the A was one big power struggle between the two of us. I think now he feels like he's in the drivers seat and by returning to the M he's handing back over the keys to me... which isn't what I want (and definitely not what he wants). But at the same time I do think it isn't healthy for me to just go along with my mouth shut.
The other dynamic that is at play here, though, is that I gave up a lot of self-care and doing things for myself after I had kids. I felt guilty about it and stopped, and thought my H should stop too. Also, while I love to travel and plan trips, on a day-to-day basis I can easily get stuck at home rather than get out the door to do something-- while H loves to be exploring, getting out of the house, etc. When we were in our power struggle phase, I think I started to lean on staying at home more and more partially to assert my own independence, but to my detriment because then I sat at home fuming with the kids while he went out and did fun things, or we'd both sit home with low-level resentment towards the other.
So a side effect of me trying to 180 on this behavior is that I've totally rediscovered things that I love to do. Hiking is a great example-- we used to hike together a ton before kids. Then I basically stopped and he'd go on his own, occasionally. Now we've been going as a family and I'd forgotten how much I love it, how good it is to be outside, how amazingly gorgeous this place we live is. I feel stronger and better about myself. Camping was the same thing-- the last time we went camping pre-A i complained the entire time because I didn't really want to do it. We've been twice now in the last six months and both times I loved it, had forgotten how amazing it is to get out of the city and see the stars. As soon as I let go of all the power struggle resentment, the enjoyment came rushing back and I am really grateful for that.
H has always pushed me like this and while it does get him what he wants-- the family out the door and outside-- it also is healing and expanding for me. This is part of the reason I want to go on this trip, regardless of him-- because I like this side of myself that I'm rediscovering and I don't want to let it go. I know I can still do all this stuff without him. But we have fun, as a family. I'm just not sure we can be H and W again.
Meant to edit the "regular exchanges all day" part but missed the window-- upon reflection, he seems down. Quiet, sleeping a lot, a little crabby. He hasn't said anything about feeling sad though and I haven't worried about it-- just did my thing and had a good day.
So, I feel like I need to do the same thing with the self-pity channel. The charm channel... that's kind of his default and I can't say I hate it. But the self-pity and self-absorbed channels, whining about AP, blaming me and the SSM, refusing to take responsibility-- that I can turn off. I feel I've been much less responsive in the last couple of weeks than ever before. I just need to turn it up a notch and be more consistent. (I used to be an animal trainer so I actually should be better at this than I am.)
This is easier for me than it is for you, in that H doesn't have much of a charm channel... (lol) and I think if he did, I'd be ensnared so much more as of course it is natural to want affection, attention, praise, care and validation from your spouse - these are not pathological needs, they are good ones, and it is very hard to have them met intermittently (you will know if you know about animal training that intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful way to inspire addiction and also to shape behaviour... these days, if my H is in a kind mood or nice to me, I enjoy it, accept with gratitude, and don't let it change decisions I've made calmly and for my own good.
I think you're still controlled by what you imagine his response is going to be - you don't want to express your needs in case he feels controlled. You shouldn't control him, but expressing your needs without making a demand is not controlling. Personally I don't think there's any point expressing your needs to a partner you are not in a committed relationship with though.
I think you're still controlled by what you imagine his response is going to be - you don't want to express your needs in case he feels controlled. You shouldn't control him, but expressing your needs without making a demand is not controlling. Personally I don't think there's any point expressing your needs to a partner you are not in a committed relationship with though.
I think you’re right. Even with MC when I had the transparency questions, H literally didn’t even want to hear them or have me write them down for him to read. Now that seems pretty bizarre. He didn’t want to even formally know what they were, yet. (And of course the temporal alignment between the transparency conversation, FINALLY, and reengagement with AP a few days later is hard for me to ignore or assume is a total coincidence).
I guess what I’ve been thinking about is whether or not to say my piece about him needing to delete WhatsApp and block her number and email before the trip. It seems juvenile not to just tell him what I am asking for and then see if he does it, or not.
It's been a while ... but I have been reading along.
... gave up a lot of self-care and doing things for myself after I had kids.
Said EVERY WOMAN who has EVER had a child.
FlySolo..... yes. LOL. Guess the silver lining of all of this is that self-care is once again a part of my life. (And why is it not the same for dads???)
I just told him that in order for me to be comfortable going on this trip, I had to feel comfortable that he was not going to be in contact with her at all, and the current situation wasn't going to do it. I needed him to delete WhatsApp, block her phone number and email, probably in front of me. He said he couldn't delete WhatsApp because he has a colleague in another country with whom it is their primary means of communication, and so I said then you need to send an email asking her to respect your decision and maybe I need to see that email.
He said, okay. He also feels he needs to be completely out of contact for this trip with her too. Then, though, he said he can't feel like I'm laying down the law and he's submitting. That it makes him feel that this will be the rest of our lives. I said, I'm not telling you to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to go. I don't want to live like this forever. But we're in a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me situation right now.
He wrote me a note and gave it to me. It reiterates what he said above. The only way to do this trip and be fair to me and to himself is to have her completely out of the picture for the trip (but I don't think this means he's committing to the MR or to her being completely out of the picture forever). That he knows I have trust issues with him and he has trust issues with our future. But he doesn't like being treated like a child and I can either trust him now, or not. But he still really wants to make this trip happen. Please don't make this trip a forcing issue for us to stay together or not. Can't it just be a trip, and a pause, for the girls, and we can come back to the hard stuff after, as necessary?
I don't think I should budge on the transparency. I also feel like I'm at a place right now where we could split and I could deal with it. I don't know that I'll feel like that after a fun family vacation-- my guess is that I'll feel more like I did in June and this will all just be extra hard and damaging again. He needs to be able to understand my side of this and at least respect my feelings and needs. Right?
Is this a boundary, condition, or reaction?
"I don't feel comfortable going on this trip."
"I won't go on the trip UNLESS you cut contact with OW."
"I won't go on the trip BECAUSE you won't cut contact with OW."
Listen to your gut. You either feel comfortable or you don't. He's right - you either trust him or you don't. If you know you can't trust him, then you know you won't be comfortable. That's your boundary. The other stuff is control. He's done nothing to earn your trust, and if he capitulates because of your conditions or reactions, it will not be genuine. You might get what you want by controlling him, but you won't feel safe in your gut. The gut always knows!
Look at his weasel words. "I need to be completely out of contact FOR THIS TRIP with her." His weakness is both pathetic and staggering. There's only one answer that will satisfy you, I think, and he's not giving it. "I have permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW." He's just flattering you to buy himself more time while he gets the prize of the family vacation. "It's for the children!" Using your children to guilt you is awful and manipulative.
You will not enjoy being the marriage police and he will resent you for it.
I said, I'm not telling you to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to go.
Well said.
That he knows I have trust issues with him and he has trust issues with our future. But he doesn't like being treated like a child and I can either trust him now, or not.
It's like, "Trust is earned. I don't trust you that far, based on some of your recent choices, but I'm open to rebuilding trust. You'd have to be transparent for awhile. Show me. Don't tell me."
It's silly comparing verification to childishness. Loan officers verify when extending credit. The last time I hired a housecleaner I verified her references, and she verified my payment info.
Edit -- Ooh! +1 Scout's wise words.
Scout, CW, thank you.
Look at his weasel words. "I need to be completely out of contact FOR THIS TRIP with her." His weakness is both pathetic and staggering. There's only one answer that will satisfy you, I think, and he's not giving it. "I have permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW." He's just flattering you to buy himself more time while he gets the prize of the family vacation. "It's for the children!" Using your children to guilt you is awful and manipulative.
Yes. I see this, absolutely. I still think I could be comfortable if he did the above-- permanently deleted and blocked all possible forms of contact with OW-- just because that is how I am. I don't think I'd do a lot of checking or anything. But that isn't what he is offering at this moment, and temporary halting isn't enough.
It's silly comparing verification to childishness. Loan officers verify when extending credit. The last time I hired a housecleaner I verified her references, and she verified my payment info.
Ha! Yes.
I wrote him a note back. I said, I get that you feel like you're being treated like a child. But... you aren't being treated like a child. You're being treated like a liar. Which, unfortunately, you have proven to be time and time again. So that is where we are and your word simply isn't enough any more.
I also said, I don't want to go on this trip if I'm worried you're still in touch with her. I also don't want to go on this trip and not be worried because you are out of contact with her for that month only, have a great time as a family, and then get hit with another bomb when we get home because you decide to get back in touch with her. I think I'm setting myself up for an even worse trauma than what happened in June and my mental health can't sustain that again.
I don't trust that you're not in contact with her right now. I don't trust that you aren't telling her "give me this month and this vacation and then we'll be together." Sorry. I simply don't have that trust. And in order for me to participate on this trip, I need to have that security-- cutting off all contact and means of contact with her permanently. If you aren't comfortable doing that for whatever reason, maybe this trip wasn't meant to be. If you want to work on our marriage in any capacity, that has to happen first. And if you can't do it... then why bother trying?
Small update-- we talked a little about what I'd written back. He said he feels like I'm giving him an ultimatum, he doesn't understand what changed today (tbh I started to get nervous about the timeline ticking and me not having said what I needed to say about the trip), he feels this is a microcosm of our whole M, me telling him what has to happen and him doing it, if I take this trip away from him he'll never forgive me. (drama.) He is not in contact with her and doesn't plan to be. (ok, buddy.)
I said, I can't blindly trust you. I need something more concrete. And repeated some of what I had written. I don't want to go being worried that you're talking to her. I don't want to go and be worried that you're going to BD on me as soon as we get back. I feel like you're manipulating me to get what you want-- this trip-- and I can't continue to put myself through this. There is simply no point if you can't commit to excising her from our lives completely and permanently.
He said, I can't block her, because she told me in the recent midst of all this that she's been having suicidal thoughts and that she can always reach out to me. (Drama) I said, no. She has other people to rely on for that. It can't be you. If you can't block her, then we shouldn't bother trying. I'm not going into a situation that is set up to fail.
He said, what does blocking her matter? If I want to get back in touch with her, I will be able to. I said, because the last time you "tried" it was all going well until she threw this bomb of moving on. If that hadn't happened, we might be in a really different situation right now. And so the thing I've learned from that experience is it makes no sense to do it if she can still contact you (OMG especially to tell him she is SUICIDAL! WTF! So literally the only reason he's leaving on the table for her to contact him is that she literally can't live without him! And I'm supposed to be okay with that!). So, that is a non-starter for me. And, yes. I get that it doesn't mean that you won't contact her anyway. I don't know why I'm doing this anyway, honestly. It all seems pointless.
He said, I'm choosing to stay in this M because you've illustrated a D scenario that is so awful that I can't put the children through that. (I do't think this is true. Yes, early on I did tell him I would take him to the f-ing cleaners. More recently all I've said is that we will not be friends.) So that is why I'm staying. I said, I don't think that is the case. if we split, you'll be happy again, I will be too. He said you've never said anything to indicate you think that. I said, don't worry about me. I'll be fine. And maybe we should talk more about what D will look like, then. He said, maybe we should.
He said, I love you. There are lots of good things about us. Maybe this trip will be the X location (trip we went on where I had the big breakthrough) for me. (Charm and total BS manipulation up the wazoo.) I said I don't believe that.
He said, I just am not confident that we can work this all out, that we are going to be fine at the other end of this even with her out of the picture. I'm sad about the past. You stole a decade of my sex life from me. I'm not sure I can forgive that. (Yes, he really said that. Drama.)
This is partially out of order, so one thing didn't necessarily lead to another. I felt anger and used it. I was not conciliatory or nice, really. I stood my ground. I feel things may be actually moving, though I'm not sure in which direction and I'm not sure I really care.
All the hotels have 24 hour cancellation and the next two weeks aren't yet booked. So, no huge rush. I said my piece, he has his IC appt tomorrow and I have mine on Wed. We agreed to talk again after those.
Hi May
stand your ground - you really really really have to. If you let him weasel you around on this one, you're just demonstrating to him that it works, that you're willing to be manipulated, and that your own boundaries don't matter.
Don't be afraid of him calling you controlling. I sense you have a lot of fear around that. If I can smell it, he can, and he will use it.
You are not trying to control him. He is free to do precisely what he wants. You are telling him you won't go on the trip under certain circumstances.
He has no right at all to pout, to write little moany notes, to try to put this on you. You were very clear you didn't want to go on the trip unless you felt you could trust him. He's not willing to take the transparency actions that would help you trust him. He is choosing this, not you.
He WANTS her to be able to get in touch with him. He wants to leave that door open. He wants to have his cake and eat it, even as he has been ignoring your boundaries and planning a trip you've said you don't want.
During the SSM, he could have left you. He chose not to. He has a contribution to that situation and the SSM doesn't mean you owe him an open relationship and mindless obedience now.
I think for the your own self respect and the health of any future relationship you have with him, you have to stick to your guns. Say as little as possible now. You've been very clear and the ball is in his court so leave it there. Every single time you have a conversation about this, he is trying to give you back the ball and you have to make all this effort to leave it with him. Just refuse the conversations. 'You know what my decision is on this. You are free to do whatever you want. Because you are a liar and because you don't want to be transparent about blocking her, I have decided not to go on the trip.' That's it. Over and over again like a broken record. Nothing else.
He will try ALL the channels, May. Fasten your seatbelt.
Oh yes, we are on. We did talk some tonight (you know I'm absymal at not talking) but I did stick to my guns.
Don't be afraid of him calling you controlling. I sense you have a lot of fear around that. If I can smell it, he can, and he will use it.
LOTS around this. I'm controlling, his entire family always has told him I'm controlling, he told his mom recently that I used to be controlling and she agreed, IC thinks I'm controlling, I was trying to tell him something about an incident from many years ago and I had felt like I needed to assert my independence and he interrupted to say "that is like we're sitting at the beach, and I'm buried to my neck in sand, and I'm trying to dig myself out and a few grains get on your leg and you're like, oh no! I'm covered in sand!" (This, I walked away from.)
Later, I got some anger "Why are you doing this? I've been trying to convince myself that this is what I want, and then you go and remind me of all the reasons why I don't want to be in an R with you." And then he went on a litany of all the things I didn't allow him to do over the years and how many ways he tried to convince himself that was OK. Oh, and I also got more of the "you were older than me, and smarter than me, and I modeled myself after you... my entire adult life has been controlled by you."
I mostly just listened to this and disagreed when it was my turn to talk. No validating, no DBing. I can also see how DBing works in the moment, though-- I *easily* could have defused everything with some validation and changing of the subject. Instead, I got him super riled up to the "why are you doing this" point, and then he huffed into bed (next to me).
But, I did stick to my guns. He brought up the "I need to get over AP and I will want you to help me with that-- appropriately (his IC told him it wasn't OK to process his feelings about AP with me, and apparently THAT is what it took for him to stop, not me telling him over and over to please not do it), but I can't get over AP by following the instructions you have laid out for me. That isn't going to work for me. It needs to be something I come up with." I said (again) we tried it your way last time and it didn't work, did it?
He said, I get that you don't trust me. I get that I need to earn that back. I get that you can say you need me to delete all her stuff for you to trust me. But you also have another motive alongside trust, and that is that you win when she's gone. I said, no. That isn't winning. That is NOT WINNING. AP being out of the picture is one small but necessary step in the path towards us working out, if we do. He said, but you're not giving me a choice. You won't even talk about us, or the SSM. The only thing you'll talk about is me cutting off all contact with her. I said, I'm not in a contest. I'm not the consolation prize. And I totally felt his manipulation there.
OK. So, this is the thing. I'm not saying I don't go on this trip... I'm saying the kids don't go either. He could take them for a week of it, I'm fine with that. But it isn't that he's going to take the kids for four weeks and I'm just saying no thanks, have fun, I'll be at home. That is not okay with me. So by me saying I'm not going, it means the trip isn't happening as he has envisioned it, four full weeks. He'd have to cut it down significantly, or go alone for most of it. (I'd be OK with him taking the kids for a week of it.) And since he is saying his primary driver to do this trip is for the children, my refusal to go means the trip doesn't happen, or at least not in its current form or length. Does that change anything? *AM* I being controlling? I thought by giving into the five day trip I was being cool... but I would never even when we were happily M ok with him taking the kids away from me for more than a week.
So by me saying I'm not going, it means the trip isn't happening as he has envisioned it, four full weeks.
Of course it isn't. He doesn't get to lie and cheat and hold the door open for his mistress AND get the sorts of things that happen in committed marriages. He wants a committed marriage and everything that goes with it, then he actually commits to the marriage.
Otherwise, you proceed as a separated couple who have to cohabit. Which means separate vacations with the children.
Haven’t you talked the marriage and SSM to death already? What he really means is “You’re not letting me blame you anymore for my affair”. Your H’s emotional abuse is really insidious and difficult to separate from actual facts and that makes it quite scary. He knows your sore spots and has no compulsion pushing them over and over and then saying you made him do it. There’s little difference between “I wouldn’t hit you if you didn’t make me so angry” and “I wouldn’t cheat on you if you weren’t so controlling.”
Please, please, please protect your sore spot. Your H will accuse you of being controlling no matter how reasonable your request. When I asked X to provide his new home address so I knew where my non-verbal baby was spending time with him, he accused me of being controlling. I actually questioned myself! You need a voice of reason and sanity, preferably a lawyer and a psychologist, giving you advice until you are confident enough to trust your motivations. It’s so difficult when you’re in an abusive relationship to do this because they know exactly how to make you doubt your reality.
It’s calculated and it’s abusive. It’s control. To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression. He is losing control and he knows it and will fight harder to maintain it. Let him have his flying monkeys - his family and his IC - they are only hearing his story and they are invested in helping him. Be true to your boundaries. If you are not comfortable with him taking the kids away for four weeks, then that’s your position and it’s not up for negotiation. Maybe you need outside permission to implement this boundary? Here, I give you permission
No fear, May! Do no harm, but take no sh!t.
To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression.
This is GOLD.
My H feels controlled when I don't allow him to have tantrums in the same room as me. Now, the man is totally free to have a tantrum in whichever room in the house he chooses. He can rant and swear and foam and scream and blame and use all the curse words his hearts desire. He can do it as often as he likes for as long as he likes. And when he starts, I leave the room so he can fully enjoy his tantrum in peace and privacy.
He finds this a controlling move on my part, limiting him in what he is allowed to say and how he can express himself in our marriage. It's very horrible for him. He told me the other day that he felt 'cancelled'.
The only thing he isn't able to control in that situation is my response to his tantrums. And THAT is the bit he doesn't like.
I think this applies very clearly to your situation May. VERY clearly.
The thing is, May, that the reasons your H doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you have nothing to do with you. It’s about his unwillingness to compromise or reciprocate or meet expectations or have responsibilities or deal with conflict or share his needs WITHOUT keeping score or silently resenting and blaming his partner. Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise. Your H won’t have a successful relationship with you, or OW, or anyone else for that matter, until and unless he addresses this problem within himself. Let go of the fear that he will be different or better for her, and that might help with your fear of ‘losing’ to the OW if he does ever leave you.
To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression.
This is GOLD.
To the controlling *spouse*....
Otherwise, I completely agree. Boundaries are necessary, and the response to them is not your responsibility to manage or bear.
May, you are doing great (even though you probably feel terrible at all the conflict right now).
Sometimes I think my H is so similar to your H, but he has decided to hold everything in and not talk—if he did, I imagine it would be much of the same stuff your H resorts to. It’s exasperating from here, but you are in the middle of the storm and you are getting stronger. Sending more strength, may, in case you need it. (((may)))
The thing is, May, that the reasons your H doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you have nothing to do with you. It’s about his unwillingness to compromise or reciprocate or meet expectations or have responsibilities or deal with conflict or share his needs WITHOUT keeping score or silently resenting and blaming his partner. Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise. Your H won’t have a successful relationship with you, or OW, or anyone else for that matter, until and unless he addresses this problem within himself. Let go of the fear that he will be different or better for her, and that might help with your fear of ‘losing’ to the OW if he does ever leave you.
THIS. THIS. THIS. I felt this viscerally. This describes my H so very well, and probably yours too May.
And the piece about fear of him being better or different for “her” stings, so I know it rings true.
This is so so so hard.
May I think you know what you should do in regards to this trip, and I can feel how scary it feels to hold that line. If there’s anything I’ve learned through this is that when things like that feel scary in these situations, that probably means it’s the right thing to do. That’s where the space is created for change and momentum and growth. It’s how you get unstuck.
I really think you are doing amazingly.
He doesn't get to lie and cheat and hold the door open for his mistress AND get the sorts of things that happen in committed marriages. He wants a committed marriage and everything that goes with it, then he actually commits to the marriage.
Otherwise, you proceed as a separated couple who have to cohabit. Which means separate vacations with the children.
Alison, this is PERFECT. it is exactly what I need to hold the line. In fact, this is part of what I've said from the very beginning to him (when I was arguing for the M)-- these are the kind of things we both love to do and the exact kind of things you can never do if you D. You don't get to go on month long trips by yourself with the kids. At least not with me as your ex. I've never been okay with that and things aren't going to magically change when we D. His argument, all along, has been why not? We can do whatever we want! We can be that couple that still vacations together. But that isn't happening from my end, and I don't have any guilt around that. The vacation is just a really clear example of continued cake-eating, and one that I'm not willing to participate in.
To the controlling man, boundaries feel like oppression.
I see this in him (and tbh, I also see it in myself, looking backwards). We've both been so terrible at boundaries that I think untangling this, what is a controlling behavior, what does it mean to respect someone else's boundaries, how to disengage when we've been together all these years and so used to planning everything around each other and the children *without* any strong boundaries between us-- I get that it feels controlling that I'm saying no to him and something he really wants that he can't have without my participation. But I also feel strong in my reasons for not wanting to participate under the current circumstances. Him being angry about it doesn't change the facts of what is happening, what I'm comfortable with FOR MY OWN PROTECTION and what I'm not. I'm not saying no to this trip to be a b*tch or punish him. I'm saying it because I am not interested in getting hurt further/again.
The control thing-- is a bit of a sore spot, and I'm coming to recognize that even though I thought I wasn't being controlling any more I was still trying to influence him with little things over the last few weeks. So there is some truth there, as much as I want to deny it. So it is something I'm thinking about a lot, control vs. boundaries, and working this out with the IC has been especially helpful. I see it is frustrating for him. (Alison, I looooove your example about your husband's rages... and yet I can also totally understand why he feels cancelled when ranting to you is no longer available. Obviously he needs to find healthier ways to communicate and the only way this can happen is when his unhealthy way no longer works-- because you aren't participating-- so I think that is a good thing. But I also understand how he feels and how hard it must be for him to take that anger and now have to deal with it himself... or not... that isn't easy for anyone.)
Scout, you are totally right, I think we HAVE talked out the SSM. I just no longer want to talk about it as the conditions set for his affair. It happened. I bear much of the responsibility for that. It doesn't mean I'm responsible for his cheating. He did that on his own. And until he can separate the two-- yes, he felt betrayed/unloved because of the SSM-- and also yes, he did still choose to cheat, it wasn't an accident, or my fault for the SSM, or anyone's fault but his own-- until he can own his choices and actions, I don't see a point in continuing to talk about the SSM. My IC (who also happens to be his IC-- which I know you guys might not think is a great idea but I was desperate, tried 10 different ICs including others in her practice, none of which had the magic combination of taking my insurance and taking new patients, and truth is I think she is great) is really focused on me holding this boundary and that he really needs to take responsibility for his own behavior and stop blaming it all on me.
Your H’s problem is his sense of entitlement and his inability to empathise.
YES. YES. YES. You are exactly right. And these are issues he has had all along, every since I've known him.
Scout, Hope, I'm not sure how much of my reluctance is fear that he'll be "better" with the OW. I think this is part of my non-detachment showing, or my possessiveness talking, but I don't actually care if their R is total $hit on the inside or not. I just don't want it to BE. Is that weird?
Kind, Cardinal, Hope, thank you. I *do* need the supportive words right now. Cardinal, hoping maybe my H's verbal diarrhea can help explain your H a bit... and Hope, that is really helpful to think that this scariness can help get me unstuck. I need that.
I have my next IC appointment tomorrow and they always help me feel so much better and stronger around my boundaries and that I'm not being controlling by enforcing my boundaries. I think I'll need this as we move forward.
Thanks you guys... I really appreciate all of this support. I need it.
Scout, Hope, I'm not sure how much of my reluctance is fear that he'll be "better" with the OW. I think this is part of my non-detachment showing, or my possessiveness talking, but I don't actually care if their R is total $hit on the inside or not. I just don't want it to BE. Is that weird?
NO. The fact that you don’t want your husband to be in any kind of relationship of any kind or of any quality with another woman is SO NOT WEIRD. Not to me anyway. I feel the exact same way, even now. I am trying SO HARD not to feel that way, but I do.
And these are issues he has had all along, every since I've known him.
You didn't break him, and you can't fix him. If his family think you are controlling, it's probably because they - in small or large ways - taught him that hearing 'no' means the person saying no is in the wrong. He sounds like a spoilt baby in some of these interactions, who cannot believe that another human being gets preferences and gets to say no and gets to determine how she thinks and feels about something, even if he doesn't agree with it or like it. And I suspect he got that from his family of origin. Was he the golden boy?
My H is suffering - he really really is lost without his punch bag. And his choices are to change, to find another punch bag, or to carry on suffering. I hope he finds a way through this and I am sorry for the suffering he is going through, but I am not caring for him by damaging myself any more. It might mean we're just not compatible: maybe my H is only capable of feeling loved if he gets to rage and sulk and have that tended to. Perhaps your H is only capable of a marriage where he is hero-worshipped and gets to do whatever he likes and never has to experience the discomfort of responsibility and self knowledge. I think a lot of this is to do with maturity. I have had to grow up a LOT in this situation. So have you, May. Pain is what moved us towards self-growth. Our H's are experiencing that now too, and it isn't a loving act to rob them of the discomfort that causes positive change. Let your H sit with your 'no' for a while and deal with it in whatever way he sees fit. Don't be afraid.
Ailson,
Yes, he is the golden boy. The oldest, the achieve, absolutely the golden boy in every sense. (And I know I'm the golden girl too, so that probably plays into my inability to believe what is happening right now.)
I know that both his parents and his brother are telling him to ditch the OW and recommit to the M. His mom and dad are both having a really hard time with the fact that he has done this.
He's had really difficult things happen in his life and he's been really amazing in how he has handled it. it is one of the things I fell in love with about him, and has strengthened me throughout our R. He's been able to turn terrible injury into something positive. I guess the difference is a human being (me) saying no to him vs. fate/god/life/whatever.... but he can totally handle life saying no to him. Just not me.
You know, that sounds familiar to me. In that I am a very strong person, and never played the wailing doormat with anyone except for my H. The outside world would have said I was resourceful, resilient, not prone to self pity or depression or anxiety, could get a grip on things and take action, and had dealt amazingly well with some really, objectively traumatic things in my childhood and early adult life. I think I only really trusted H to show that vulnerable side to - which is no bad thing - but it went beyond that, and I actually expected the love of a partner and a marriage to heal the parts of me that needed healing. I know I was very depressed after my youngest was born, and I did nearly nothing to help myself, but expected H to comfort me out of it. And he tried - but of course severe PND did not work like that and it was still my responsibility to seek medical care. The same thing happened in the aftermath of his EA - before I came to these boards. The injury I suffered there was not my fault, but it was my responsibility to heal - and I didn't take that responsibility, I dumped it on H and a lot of damage was done. I see your H doing some of the same things - dumping the damage he has experienced from the SSM onto you (and I can empathise with that - I have been on the receiving end of similar and the damage is real) and the grief and upset he feels over his actions with the OW, and the difficulty he is having in making a decision, and his fear for the future - all dumped on you to make better. The only thing that stopped me dumping my %^&* on my H and expecting him to fix it was him being totally unavailable for it. He just wasn't in the house, and still I chased him and got my fingers burned every time. It was wrong of him to treat me the way he did and when he does it now it is still wrong, but my feelings were always my own responsibility and I didn't get chance to learn that until he totally dumped them back on me and vanished from our marriage.
Hi Alison,
Thank you for sharing that... I'm going to guess that there are some parallels, for sure, with my H. He presents a very capable, strong, and put together facade to the world. (So do I, I guess.) He comes off as arrogant. I think this hides some deep insecurities. He really, really cares what other people think of him... probably not in an extreme way, but just a lot more than I care about what other people think of me.
I do think he's dumped a lot of those feelings you describe (damage from the SSM, feelings about the affair, inability to make a decision, fear of the future) onto me to process. I also think I've dumped things onto him throughout our M. I know I've treated him terribly in the past. Said really awful things in anger. For years, we would fight and I would say things like "I can't be married to someone like you" because I felt like I was being treated badly. It would hurt him deeply that I would ever say that in anger, and he used to call me out on it. I'd apologize or get defensive but didn't really think about it in any real way that would motivate me to change the next time I got mad. I guess in some ways I can identify a little with your H, as I don't get angry very often but the only person in the world who can push my buttons is my H (my mom to a lesser extent) and in the past when I did get pushed to the breaking point, I have really, really unloaded terrible things on him in anger. And I also suspect that the SSM was partially my drip-feeding some of the resentment and anger I felt back to him.
I don't do this anymore. I guess that is one part of me growing. I've let so much go. When I had that total cathartic experience with H on our trip in Feb. 2019, I felt washed clean. I let it all go, the resentment, the anger, the reasons for the SSM. I saw him as a person again. H still is holding onto all that baggage, though, and I know he needs to process it himself if there is any hope for our M. I can't do it for him, and you're right, it wouldn't be the kind or right thing to do.
Perhaps your H is only capable of a marriage where he is hero-worshipped and gets to do whatever he likes and never has to experience the discomfort of responsibility and self knowledge. I think a lot of this is to do with maturity. I have had to grow up a LOT in this situation. So have you, May. Pain is what moved us towards self-growth. Our H's are experiencing that now too, and it isn't a loving act to rob them of the discomfort that causes positive change. Let your H sit with your 'no' for a while and deal with it in whatever way he sees fit. Don't be afraid.
It is interesting-- I actually think in our M he sees it the other way-- that he worshipped me-- and now he's experiencing a relationship with AP where he's the hero. Which has got to be very seductive. Either way he has still offloaded responsibility for his own feelings and happiness to me and/or AP. I think this is why he thinks he can't be happy without AP in his life, because of how she makes him feel. (He's said this a number of times-- it isn't her as a person, but the way she is towards him makes him feel loved and wanted and needed, and if that was gone-- she no longer felt that way about him-- the drug would be gone and he could move on.) Mind reading again, but I partially wonder if this trip is/was his way of pushing her to cut him off and move on since he can't seem to do that himself.
Mostly quiet yesterday. In the afternoon I took my kids to the beach to meet with my friend, her H, and their kids. Everyone had a ball and just being outdoors, by the ocean, talking with good good friends felt like a balm. H grilled prime ribeye for dinner and I topped mine with truffle butter and had a Manhattan. Watched a comedy special and folded two giant loads of kid laundry which is my very very least favorite chore but they've been sitting, clean and wrinkled, in laundry baskets in my way for days-- so getting that done felt good. (OMG. Those of you who gladly fold other people's laundry are saints. I'm going to start making my kids do their own.)
H gave me a little flare of anger as we were getting ready for bed-- said the only way we stay M is to go on this trip. I said, OK. You know how to make it happen. He said how can he block her when he's told her he'll be there for her if she's suicidal-- how horrible would I feel if she tried to call and he had blocked her and then she did something? I said, I would think you'd tell her you can't be that person for her after all and would be blocking her. If you want to be my H you can't be that person for her. She has other people that can help her. He said, you don't know anything about her life. I said nothing.
He also sparked more anger around control-- I'm just telling him what to do, he can't do this like this because it makes him feel that his whole life will be just me telling him what to do. I'm a bad mom (yes, he said this) and too selfish to do this trip for the children. I didn't say anything to that. I'm trying to imagine myself as a rock, just letting this garbage wash over and around me but not moving me.
IC appointment this afternoon. Will try to figure out two more things (thanks KC) to do for me... maybe yoga and some time relaxing outside with a novel.
Always here and following along just so you know. FYI I've realized the reason we don't know each other IRL is because I'd eff his car up. Bad. And I'd probably catfish AP. I heart you. That is all. xoxoxxoxo
May, just wanted to post something funny. I've been using a new streaming service to watch trashy reality TV like the Real Housewives (no shame, please). The software obviously has a few bugs and keeps throwing up error messages. I keep getting the following notification: Entitlement Validation Error. It makes me think of your H every time. LOL.
You are NOT a bad mum. I know you know that, though.
That's hilarious Scout. I made so many mistakes and validating emotional abuse and entitlement and bad behaviour was a massive one. Wish you'd have been around to give me my 2x4s then.
Thanks, WF. I heart you too. It means a lot when you say hi
Scout-- I love that. Entitlement validation error. I need to just have my computer voice go BLEERP, ERROR when he starts in on whatever he's going on about in the moment.
In speaking with the IC today I think I'll add one more to the list of his major flaws: entitlement, lack of empathy, and inability to take responsibility for his own actions. I was talking about this with my good friend today, who knows H well, and telling her these have always been personality traits of his I don't love. in fact, I feel I can trace most of my beefs with him to these three things. She asked-- has there ever been a time where you saw H really take responsibility for something major, something he did wrong, and admit it and work to rectify the situation? This stopped me cold. I couldn't think of a single time. Now I'm still thinking and I'm sure I have some level of confirmation bias going on here, but MAN. It really made me think that I'm barking up the wrong tree to think this man will suddenly sprout wings and come out of this chrysalis a butterfly.
I mean, is it possible? Crisis/trauma can spur major growth, like Alison said earlier-- but will that happen for *him*? I feel like signs are not pointing in that direction. One of the reasons I'd been confident this would work is that he has always tended to justify his decisions after the fact, such that everything that has happened to him turned out to be the best possible thing in the world. (FlySolo, like your H, right?) So I felt like if he made the choice to stay, once he got through the hardest part, he'd be motivated to do all he could to be sure this decision, like every other thing that has happened to him, was the right one and we'd be well on our way to M2.0.
Now... I'm not so sure that will be the case from where we are right now. One, he is doing his best to avoid making the decision himself, so it won’t have been his own decision but something that was thrust upon him. (The more I think about it, and I talked about this with the IC today, I think he purposely put this whole month-long trip together in order to force AP to be the one to make the decision.) Two, justifying his decision and actually doing the hard work are two very different things. I need to think on this some more.
He has made small and positive changes, I’ll give him that, like around the anger management and saying mean things area— which has been again one of the reasons i’d been hopeful for positive change, because I’d seen it in those areas and we’d been getting along so well this whole spring/summer. But now I’m wondering if those are just improvements in our communications channels and not really demonstrating that he can do the hard work… just that he can learn to stop being an @sshole, especially when being an @sshole doesn’t get him anywhere. And that is very different from taking responsibility, admitting you were wrong, purposefully putting himself in my shoes and understanding the hurt and damage he’s done, and digging deep to make these changes in himself and repair our R.
Had a great session with the IC today, and got more time with her tomorrow as we never got to the part about my job opportunities. I feel stronger than ever in sticking to my guns on the trip and what I need in order to go. Spent some time around why I am unable to be the one to make the choice to walk and I think it gets down to one of my core values, being a mom and having a family, and I can’t be the one to pull the trigger on ending that. She says I do need to protect my core values but it puts me in a position of disempowerment and wants to spend some time working on how I can take some of that power back without violating my core values. I’m wondering if it is about how I’m framing it.
No R talks today, except I told him after my session that it was great and I’m really centered in what I’ve said to him about what I need in order to go on the trip. He didn’t respond at all.
I mean, is it possible? Crisis/trauma can spur major growth, like Alison said earlier-- but will that happen for *him*?
The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.
The consequences must be severe. He completely loses any access to you. He loses 50% access to the kids. He is exposed as an adulterer to family and friends. He gives you and the kids long-term financial support. This is not done out of anger or to punish your H. In fact, it's the opposite. I think you are doing an unkindness to him by refusing to leave. I think you are standing in the way of his personal growth by refusing to impose consequences. Change is hard and people like to be comfortable. He is too weak to do it himself. Leaving him could be the impetus for him to finally change. Leaving him could be your greatest act of love.
Sidenote to Alison - DB has its uses, but it lacks a lot of nuance when it comes to abusive relationships. I believe infidelity is inherently abusive and therefore feel like I'm the black sheep of DB with my 2x4s coming from that angle. I followed some absolutely terrible advice in the five months between BD and filing for separation - I'm still shaking my fist at Laura Doyle. But it was all honest and earnest and part of the journey. I do believe everyone gets where they need to be eventually, with or without the 2x4s. You are in a fantastic place now
ETA: May, you are also doing great! I know you will get there on your terms and how important it is for you to own that.
I have more thoughts about you leaving him. Let me paint you a picture.
As soon as you leave, he will go to be with the OW. It seems counter-intuitive, but you actually want this to happen.
The sooner they get together, particularly the sooner they move in together, the sooner the honeymoon stage of their relationship will be over. They will settle into the banality of a normal relationship which is subject to its usual stressors. Arguments about chores and bills. Sex becomes routine. She wants a kid and he doesn't. He can't afford to take her on a holiday due to his spousal and child support bills. She wants to move states but he can't leave the kids. They both get diarrhoea and sh!t themselves in front of each other. The fantasy crumbles.
Your H, having not done the work, brings his lack of accountability and poor coping skills and massive entitlement into this new relationship. I'm going to wager that OW is similarly lacking. They spackle over their shallow relationship built on lies and lust with filtered Instagram posts about #truelove and #blendedfamilies and #bonusmom. This part stinks, but you are too busy building your fabulous new life to check their social media. The kids have two birthdays and two Christmases every year and they're cool with it.
A year or two passes. You have reached the glorious state of meh and no longer have any feelings about H except indifference. Your kids will talk about him and OW and you'll say "cool", "bummer" or "wow" without feeling even a little sting. Then! You hear word from the kids that H and OW have broken up in dramatic fashion - probably more infidelity on either part, throw in a suicide threat, definitely some sad sausage Instagram posts. Your H realises what a colossal, gigantic c0ck-up he has made. He comes crawling back with promises and regrets. What happens next is up to you...
The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.
I 100% agree with this.
And none of it is done in the spirit of punishing your H - to give out 'consequences' like you do to a misbehaving child. It isn't you he's really fighting with, it's the fact of life, and one of these facts of life is that you can't have all the benefits of a committed marriage in which to raise children and enjoy the intimate and caring benefits of a wife if you are a liar and a cheat. You didn't make that rule.
Thanks, Scout, Alison. I'm feeling down this morning, still strong in my conviction around what I need in order to go on this trip, but kind of hopeless. Like even if he does cut off all contact with AP all that means is that I get to be the one to continue to deal with his $hit as my H. And if he doesn't I get to be the one to continue to deal with his $hit as my ex and the father of my kids. There is no winning path for me, no light at the end of the tunnel. I spent some time on the MLC boards this morning and am feeling like I made a bad call all those years ago to M this guy and even worse to bring children into the world with him. (Although of course I love them more than anything in the world and I can't imagine life without them so that also makes it messed up since they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. So if I go down that path I start to tiptoe into some self-blamey areas, I should have secured my M earlier for the children, I f-ed up and now we're here.)
I'm questioning my judgment and my choices and angry at him and myself. it doesn't help that our entire country is a $hitshow. I read an article the other day entitled "America literally drank away our children's future" because we couldn't bear to go any longer without bars and restaurants and FUN so now our kids don't get to go to school in the fall. Anyway. I'm feeling a bit contrary today.
The ONLY way your H will do the kind of internal work you're talking about is if CONSEQUENCES are imposed for his bad behaviour. That's why I keep harping on about the importance of YOU being the one to leave if you want any chance of reconciliation. He won't change unless he feels enough pain and shame to do so, and even then he might turn and run for the rest of his life - that's the risk you have to be willing to take. You have to leave him and be willing to lose him forever as a result. On his part - he will never value something he has never had to earn. On your part - unconditional love does not mean being an enabler.
The consequences must be severe. He completely loses any access to you. He loses 50% access to the kids. He is exposed as an adulterer to family and friends. He gives you and the kids long-term financial support. This is not done out of anger or to punish your H. In fact, it's the opposite. I think you are doing an unkindness to him by refusing to leave. I think you are standing in the way of his personal growth by refusing to impose consequences. Change is hard and people like to be comfortable. He is too weak to do it himself. Leaving him could be the impetus for him to finally change. Leaving him could be your greatest act of love.
I agree with all of this. And/but... I'm absolutely enraged that the children have to pay the price, or part of the price, for the consequences of his behavior. That through no fault of their own, their family is broken up, they see love fail, they see their selfish dad choosing a new life and a new W and possibly new children over our family and them. I CANNOT FORGIVE THIS. Here's my difference... when I make the choice to walk, it will be forever. I won't want him back. I don't want to let him go to get him back. When that line is crossed, I can't see any part of me wanting anything to do with him that I'm not legally obliged to do, ever again.
Could I maybe change my mind? I guess so... I know there are plenty of friends on this board who have experienced S and are still willing to R. And yes, I also am beginning to be convinced it is a necessary part of the process if there is any future for us. But I just can't make it work in my head. Bringing the children into this by S-ing, for me, is violating a core value. If he does it, I'll never, ever forgive him. If I do it-- at least where I am today-- I'll never, ever forgive myself. That is where I am stuck.
Scout, the situation you illustrate... I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts around it. I doubt she'll move out here right away. She hasn't even told her sister, the closest person in her life, about H. And, knowing my H, if he makes this move he'll most likely stick it out and tell himself it was the best decision he ever made, following his heart, blah blah blah and they'll get M and have more kids and even if their R is total $hit on the inside, he'll never, ever admit it to himself because it needs to have been worth the sacrifices he made and the pain he put other people through.
Or, yes, he could totally crash and burn. I think of that situation and I only feel disgust and pity. I can't imagine getting myself to the glorious state of meh and ever wanting anything to do with that sad sack turning up on my doorstep. I'm scared that I would entertain it for the sake of the children, given what I'm willing to go through right now. And that.... f-ing TERRIFIES me. That I would extract myself from this d-bag and watch his selfishness and entitlement torpedo yet another relationship, and then ever willingly reengage.
But I could see it happening because he's the GD father of my children and as you know can be very, very charming when he feels like it. I'm so jealous of the LBSs without children who can just cut ties and walk. I'm so confused why AP is holding on so tight. She has no strings to H. They live thousands of miles away from each other. She never has to see him again. If I never had to see him again, if there wasn't all the complications of the children and how this would affect them and knowing he is going to be a part of my life forever no matter what... the thought of walking away and never seeing him again (even though it is impossible) is so freeing. There would be pain but it would be like the Queen of Dragons walking through fire and emerging unscathed and stronger than ever on the other side. Maybe I can imagine my girls like tiny dragons who will get stronger through the fire.
And none of it is done in the spirit of punishing your H - to give out 'consequences' like you do to a misbehaving child. It isn't you he's really fighting with, it's the fact of life, and one of these facts of life is that you can't have all the benefits of a committed marriage in which to raise children and enjoy the intimate and caring benefits of a wife if you are a liar and a cheat. You didn't make that rule.
I agree with you. H would not. "we get to make the rules." we don't have to live by society's standards. we can make this next evolution of our relationship whatever we want. Blah blah f-ing blah. It is so tiring to talk to him sometimes. But he is so entitled that he can't even accept that this is a fact of life. It is a punishment I'm exacting from him because he isn't doing what I want.
May, go easy on yourself. You are allowed to be as angry as you like for as long as you like, but blame never ever helps. For a marriage to work you need to take 100% responsibility for your part in things and no more, and so does your H. He isn't able to do this. You are doing this as best as you can and you did it as soon as you knew how to. Your husband is failing as a husband and as an adult. You can be furious about that, but it isn't your fault and there isn't a great deal you can do about it right now.
Your core values are keeping you stuck in a situation that is no good for you. I think your core value is to give your girls the very best upbringing that is within your capacity to provide. A happy home in a stable marriage is not on the menu of things you can give them right now and that 100% STINKS. It really does. I can't offer it to my children either, and it does, in my quiet moments, break my heart. I hear where you are coming from. None of that changes the fact that the family that your children are existing in now is fake. I don't doubt you love them and I believe your H does too, but this illusion of a happy family isn't real.
I bet you know children who are growing up between two houses with blended families who are just fine. Yes, it is painful, and no, it isn't what you wanted for them, but I sense a bit of judgement here that kids being brought up by separated or divorced parents are getting second best, and I don't think that is true. I am sure if I end up bringing my kids up alone, with H visiting them in the week or taking them at weekends and holidays, you would not judge me, would not think I was a bad mother, and would not assume I was not offering anything other than a great upbringing to my kids. If there was ever a kind step father in their lives, I am sure you would not judge me as giving them second best. There are infinite ways to make a family. And infinite ways for kids to navigate the normal bumps and lumps and transitions of life.
You have the opportunity now to show them what self respect, honesty, boldness and boundaries look like. If they are girls, this is especially important. You can show them that within a good marriage, or you can show them that in a collaborative divorce. I am not sure you can show them that in your current situation. They might not be aware of what is happening now, but I can see unless you act to change it decisively, this limbo situation will spinning on for years, your anger corroding into bitterness, and your children, as they mature into young women, learning that Mom needs to go along with what Dad wants to keep him happy, no matter what it costs her. They'll see Mom's light slowly but surely going out, and think marriage is about Mom being angry and resentful and unhappy and Dad being an entitled teenager. The more angry and resentful you are, the more distance there will be between you and your H and he will end up in another affair, or just continuing with his current mistress for as long as it is convenient to them. I don't know of that many more damaging lessons to teach young women about heterosexual marriage: I am sure many of us women are here on these boards because, in some way, we learned that lesson from our own mothers.
And when your H says 'we can make this marriage whatever we want' what he means is 'what I want'. He really doesn't care at all about what you want and he hasn't done in years - if he was so interested in having an evolved marriage, he would have involved you in his decision to have another sexual and intimate partner. He kept that secret from you and took away your consent to the relationship you were in. He's still doing it now, only he's doing it to your face.
May can I tell you a little story about my exH. My exH went into a downward spiral after I left and as I built my self up and reclaimed my life, started dating, and then fell in love, my ex went into a deeper depresssion. Then one day decided he didn't want to be like that any more. Worked on himself a little. Started to date. Met a great girl. She was an absolute angel to D17. She came to every sporting event, every concert, every big moment. No hesitation. She made sure exH was there, was sober, was happy and attentive to his D. We loved her. She made my ex a better man. A better man than I ever could. And I did beat myself up about that for a while. I had so convinced myself that he was the toxic one I hadn't taken the time to realize we simply were toxic for each other. As their relationship progressed I accepted more and more that he and I simply weren't meant for each other. We weren't meant to be together forever. He was put in my life to give me my beautiful baby, who is no longer a baby. And that was his purpose. She is all the wonderful things about him. And she does carry a few of the not so wonderful things about him. Stinky feet, a need to sleep 10 hours or be a monster to deal with, etc. He got to be there for all her baby firsts. And some of her formative years. But at 9 her and I were on our own and she said she wished I had done it sooner. Because him and I together was terrible for her. In the years since ExH blew up that amazing relationship that made him a better man. He has a new trashy gf who has 4 kids from 4 baby daddies. She was married when they started sleeping together. ExH is drinking heavily again, and not caring for his mental health. And no matter what happened in this house D17 was helped by her parents splitting up.
All kids fair better in 2 households than then do in 1 toxic one. If your H won't put in the work your home will become so toxic it won't just be confined to the two of you any more. Toxicity like that seeps out, oozing all over everything. You can't control it either. It will effect your kids. And you have no idea in what way until it's too late.
You know how I feel about standing. If you can't, won't, or other wise are unable to be the one to pull the plug so be it. You stay. You figure this out. You do what you need to do. I am 100% on board with once you're done you're done, but you're not giving up with out a fight. I am that exact same person. If you aren't in a place to throw in the towel so be it. But don't stick this out for the kids. And sorry but a little 2x4 here don't say it's for the kids when it's not. Since this newest little revelation of H being a waste of oxygen you bring up the girls a lot but it's nearly always about how you think they are going to feel, and all of that is based on how you're feeling. Not the reality of how they will deal with things, because the truth is you don't know. Some kids take all of this stuff very personally, but most kids won't give a d@mn that they have a separated mommy and daddy once they start getting 2 christmases and birthdays. The wonderful thing about children is they are incredibly self involved by design. And also resilient. If you love them and support them to the best of your ability none of this has to affect them deeply or in the long term. If you always choose to put your daughters' feeling above your own regardless of the hate fire you have for H or AP or who ever may come in the future, you will always have well adjusted, happy girls. You're an amazing mother. And he's a great dad. The only thing imposing on them not having a rough go of it isn't you two separating and ending the marriage, it's you two in a constant power struggle for the rest of their lives. You don't have to be the bigger person now or ever. But as I've told wooba, I will tell you. Meet him where he's at. You can't expect rational behavior or logical, mindful choices from your H. The sooner you can start making the best decisions for you and the girls devoid of emotion the better. Because for the rest of the girls life you will have to be the bigger person. The more detached person. The water off a duck's back person. Because H isn't capable. You have to choose your battles. You have to choose your words. You have to make the hard decisions and swallow your ego more often than you should. But it's what we do as mothers.
Stay if you need more time to figure this out. Leave if you can't take this any more. But please don't do either based almost entirely on what you think the girls want or need. They need two parents who love them. That doesn't mean they need you together.
Thanks, Alison. I have another session with IC this afternoon specifically to try to tease out this core value thing (plus me figuring out how to not let my emotional life bleed into my professional life). I do suspect it is less around being a family of four and more about being the best parent I can be.
I don't judge people who are divorced, I really don't. I also spent some time with the IC yesterday on why I'm so against it. I do think it is sad when there are children involved but I think the only time IRL where I've gotten judge-y is when I feel like one or both of the parents didn't really try, or just walked away. Our neighbors have two children, S3 and D8. The 8 year old is terrific friends with mine and they used to just run back and forth between the two houses. One day a couple of years ago, the W came home from a business trip and said she wanted a D, she wasn't happy. The H said, OK. And that was that. She MO, hooked up with a work colleague (they had clearly been having an A but the H wasn't aware and she's never admitted to it... but within days of her announcement, when she made her H sleep in the basement before she actually MO, she was going out at night and coming home at 2 or 3 in the morning every night).
This happened a couple of years ago, their D was finalized about 18 months ago, and she's now living with her OM and 6 months pregnant. He's in a serious relationship too. The kids are shuffled back and forth. The kids don't seem to care but neither do they seem happy or well-adjusted. The daughter said to me a couple of months ago that maybe her parents would get back together. My girls are heartbroken that their time with their good friend is cut in half-- there have been a lot of tears at my house about it. Both parents seem relatively disengaged. The dad only has them half the time and I think they just watch a lot of TV. He works in his shop on woodworking stuff while they're with him. The mom seems like she can't wait to drop them off-- I don't think she's ever really loved being a mom (from conversations before she MO). I just feel so bad for the kids.
However, from the surface-- if I didn't live right next door and hear what is happening all day long, know when one parent comes and goes (with Covid, we all get excited any time a car goes up the drive, LOL)-- they would look like they have a perfect D. They're friendly, when school was still in session the mom would bring the kids home to the dad's house and make them dinner every day before he came home, he co-signed her loan for her new house. They *look* like a textbook conscious uncoupling. And yet, I'm close enough to know that it is not. And I feel some anger on behalf of the kids that both parents just walked away from their M and their family without a backwards glance. They weren't a high conflict couple but they've both brought their R issues into their new relationships... I'm much closer to the dad and we talk a lot about his new R, and I'm not optimistic for him. This is by far the closest I've ever been to witnessing a D unfold (H as well) and it looks simply awful.
And this is the closest my children are to D. My older daughter has a couple of good friends whose parents are D-- one is a super high conflict, ugly ugly situation; one looks very perfect co-parenting on the surface but the dad is a real jerk and I think it is just optics of what the mom wants to present. I really don't have good examples of Ded couples whose kids are well-adjusted and doing great.
I hear what you're saying, Alison. And of course I would never ever judge you if you D or remarry or whatever... I know you are doing what is best for you and your children. I believe that when the time comes that I am no longer able to be a good parent to my girls, that the trauma and stress of what is happening bleeds into my parenting, that will be my cue to walk. I think I could do it then. 100%. And I also think I could have done it in the first year of his A, if I had found out, because we were high conflict at home and I (not knowing about the A, but only considering how he was behaving towards me) felt strongly that this behavior could not continue as it was not OK for the children to witness. It was why *I* wanted to go into MC, because I felt like we were setting a bad example for the kids.
Maybe I'm good at compartmentalizing too... but the honest truth is, right now, I don't feel like we're a fake family. We are a family. The kids have a great mom and a great dad who love them very, very much. We don't argue in front of them and we spend QT together. We are kind to each other. And. My H is acting like a selfish jack@ss and putting this all at risk and I'm furious with him about it. But even if he is not being authentic and truthful, I believe that I am and I'm living my core values and being the best mom and May I can be.
Maybe my H will find some slippery way to get out of this deadline with the trip, but I do feel movement, that something is happening, that either he'll do what i'm asking or he won't and then we'll need to tell the children we aren't going on this trip, and he's saying he'll never forgive me for taking that away and we can't be married if we don't take this trip... okay. sounds like a decision to me.
And when your H says 'we can make this marriage whatever we want' what he means is 'what I want'. He really doesn't care at all about what you want and he hasn't done in years - if he was so interested in having an evolved marriage, he would have involved you in his decision to have another sexual and intimate partner. He kept that secret from you and took away your consent to the relationship you were in. He's still doing it now, only he's doing it to your face.
Yep. He's a selfish duck. (CARDINAL this really still makes me smile. thank you.)
You are doing so well May. You really are. I wish I'd had taken things as slowly and carefully as you are doing right now. There will be grief, no matter what path forward you choose and no matter if your H chooses to take it with you or not. And I think grieving is another way of facing reality, and it's only when we do that, that we can make good choices. And you are on your way, even if the destination doesn't look that great or isn't clear at all yet.
As their relationship progressed I accepted more and more that he and I simply weren't meant for each other. We weren't meant to be together forever. He was put in my life to give me my beautiful baby, who is no longer a baby. And that was his purpose. She is all the wonderful things about him. And she does carry a few of the not so wonderful things about him....And no matter what happened in this house D17 was helped by her parents splitting up.
Honestly, WF, I think you're just a better person than me. I can't see myself ever getting there.
All kids fair better in 2 households than then do in 1 toxic one. If your H won't put in the work your home will become so toxic it won't just be confined to the two of you any more. Toxicity like that seeps out, oozing all over everything. You can't control it either. It will effect your kids. And you have no idea in what way until it's too late.
Agreed. But our house is not toxic right now. I know it to my bones. I see it could get toxic because I think it has been in the past, and the girls are older now too and will pick up on a lot more of that than they did before. But today, I stand by the environment I'm giving them, today, as a mom is a good one.
You know how I feel about standing. If you can't, won't, or other wise are unable to be the one to pull the plug so be it. You stay. You figure this out. You do what you need to do. I am 100% on board with once you're done you're done, but you're not giving up with out a fight. I am that exact same person. If you aren't in a place to throw in the towel so be it. But don't stick this out for the kids. And sorry but a little 2x4 here don't say it's for the kids when it's not. Since this newest little revelation of H being a waste of oxygen you bring up the girls a lot but it's nearly always about how you think they are going to feel, and all of that is based on how you're feeling. Not the reality of how they will deal with things, because the truth is you don't know. Some kids take all of this stuff very personally, but most kids won't give a d@mn that they have a separated mommy and daddy once they start getting 2 christmases and birthdays. The wonderful thing about children is they are incredibly self involved by design. And also resilient. If you love them and support them to the best of your ability none of this has to affect them deeply or in the long term.
Knowing my girls, I think they are going to take this very, very badly. In different ways. I think my older daughter will be very angry, probably at both of us. I see her angry at her dad for leaving and angry at her mom for "making" him leave (even if I don't, but because I was mean to him or whatever she'll come up with as to why he had to choose to go.) The younger internalizes things and is incredibly sensitive emotionally. If one of us yells at her about something I'll often find her later, sobbing as if her heart is broken, saying she's a bad girl, this is all her fault, daddy or mommy (whoever yelled) doesn't love her. I know I need to get over this and I can get them therapists and all the rest. I just don't *see* that yet, that they will be fine. And so since I'm their mom and I can't see that yet, I don't see how I can authentically parent them through this and lie to them and myself about what I see in front of us. I will keep working at getting to a place where I see them better off with us apart, and then I think I can go full bore. But I can't do that until I get to that place (or until the decision is taken out of my hands, I guess-- in which case I can take the hand I'm dealt and do the very best I can).
If you always choose to put your daughters' feeling above your own regardless of the hate fire you have for H or AP or who ever may come in the future, you will always have well adjusted, happy girls. You're an amazing mother. And he's a great dad. The only thing imposing on them not having a rough go of it isn't you two separating and ending the marriage, it's you two in a constant power struggle for the rest of their lives. You don't have to be the bigger person now or ever. But as I've told wooba, I will tell you. Meet him where he's at. You can't expect rational behavior or logical, mindful choices from your H. The sooner you can start making the best decisions for you and the girls devoid of emotion the better. Because for the rest of the girls life you will have to be the bigger person. The more detached person. The water off a duck's back person. Because H isn't capable. You have to choose your battles. You have to choose your words. You have to make the hard decisions and swallow your ego more often than you should. But it's what we do as mothers.
I feel like maybe I'm not that great of a mom when I read this, and I think about H telling me I'm the one being selfish if I can't put them above my own feelings if we split. Maybe he's right. I can't. I can't see being the bigger person right now. I am angry and spiteful and want to use every weapon in my arsenal (besides them) to hurt him, if we go down that path. Maybe I'm afraid more of myself and who I am afraid I'll become than anything else.
Stay if you need more time to figure this out. Leave if you can't take this any more. But please don't do either based almost entirely on what you think the girls want or need. They need two parents who love them. That doesn't mean they need you together.
I'm at a place right now where I feel I know I'll be OK if we split. Maybe better off. I'm not yet to the place where I think they'll be better off.
And I did not sign up to parent them half time. I want them full time. They are my kids and I want them with me. So if he was willing to run off into the sunset and do as he's saying he'll do right now (but which I don't actually believe), that they could stay here six of seven nights a week... then OK. But if he gets to go be an entitled @ss AND take away my children from me half of the nights a week? F HIM AND THE HORSE HE CAME IN ON. I am very angry about this idea and I don't don't don't want it. So that is a big thing for me too.
I think awhile back Sage asked me if I could get to a place where I DGAF which path my H chose... I think I'm close to there. Scout asked what percentage of me wanted him to stay vs. go. I'm at say 55-45 right now. I want to get to 50-50.
Ah, may, I identify with your anger and spitefulness right now! Ducks. I am over on MLC always trying to be the bigger, more evolved person I want to be, but right at this moment I just want to give in to anger, as you know. I have followed along as you and Wayfarer and others have been able to separate themselves from AP, and I feel like I have many good models in all of you. I understand it all intellectually, but as I read through your story about your neighbors' D, and the wife announcing and then immediately heading out nights, I got angry again. That is my H. It is also the not trying I haven't come to terms with.
If I never had to see him again, if there wasn't all the complications of the children and how this would affect them and knowing he is going to be a part of my life forever no matter what... the thought of walking away and never seeing him again (even though it is impossible) is so freeing. There would be pain but it would be like the Queen of Dragons walking through fire and emerging unscathed and stronger than ever on the other side. Maybe I can imagine my girls like tiny dragons who will get stronger through the fire.
What a gorgeous, fierce image! I can tell you, though I don't know how I would honestly feel if I did have kids (though I imagine it would be pretty much as you do, with this whole other white hot dimension of anger), I don't feel this sense of freedom without them either. If I was younger, like 30, I think I might. Instead, I tend to feel in my worst moments like the past seventeen years were kind of a waste. I'm sure I should be looking at it like, at least I didn't make a kid with this person, but instead I think at least then something beautiful would have come out of the M. Something beautiful impossible to doubt or deny or rewrite. I wasn't sure I wanted kids, though in later years I think I started to but on some half-aware level doubted H would be able to compromise and do things adults need to do to parent a child, or I'd think about the way he'd get so angry when we argued, how I was glad we didn't have kids who were exposed to that. Now I really can't see how I will ever be able to have a child, and that is a loss I haven't even begun to process, because I have more immediate ones to deal with. I realize I'm looking at this in a somewhat simplistic kind of way, without fully considering the anguish I would feel going through this with children, or then having to co-parent and see AP or whoever else was in the picture on a regular basis. I mean, that all sounds awful, for sure. And I know it's not fair exactly to be like, if only I had a kid, this would be worth it! That's a lot of pressure to put on an imaginary child. I guess I'm just thinking about this other side of being childless too. I wish I felt like the Queen of Dragons! Maybe I will someday.
I think no matter what happens, you can still be the Queen walking through the fire stronger, and you can fiercely protect your girls with the strength you've gained. I hope in saying this, it doesn't sound like I'm minimizing your experience as a mother, which I can't know, or taking away from how you feel right now. You
are an amazing mom, may; don't let anything your H says make you doubt that. I think everything you're feeling is 100% justified. I hope your IC appointment is just what you need today.
Oh, Cardinal, I almost didn't write that because I didn't want you to read it and think I didn't empathize with where you are and how you're feeling right now. I totally get that there is so much wrapped up in our marriages and our partners and our dreams and futures and all the rest. I actually think at first for me, those were the things that were harder-- the financial insecurity especially in the long term because much of "our" retirement cushion and health insurance stuff all comes through him; the loss of identity as his wife; the loss of your H as the person you knew in all ways-- lover, friend, partner; the loss of what you imagined would be in the future. All that is enormous and I am not for one second minimizing it. I guess for me I feel I've processed a lot of that and am ready and OK to face that fire for me. I'm just not ready to have them follow me through it.
(((cardinal))) I know you'll walk through that white-hot fire and come out fierce and lovely and glowing golden with zen peace shining in your eyes... that is how I imagine you.
Oh, no worries, may! I didn’t think you were minimizing anything either. I’m glad you wrote it because it made me think about why I don’t feel that sense of freedom, and helped me think about children a bit more. I do feel a little glimmer of I dgaf how he reacts when I stand firm for what the law entitles me to. I think anger will help me get through any more displays of anger from him, but I don’t want to turn bitter in the process. I’m sure everyone here will help me stay on the right track. I don’t want to miss out on that zen peace.
Much love to you!
You’re at 55-45! I think you’ve made huge progress
I understand your worries about your girls. I think the children might be angry, they will probably have big feelings, but they will be okay in time. In my opinion, you have to put yourself first, even before your girls in your decision making. It is your life. You are not living your life for your children. Another thing is you are leading by example. However, if I were in your shoes, I can see another possibility of waiting it out until the girls are older then file for D. But then I would think I would be doing myself a disservice by caving into staying in a M that I no longer believe in, and the pretense of a M for the sake of my kids would kill my soul.
50/50 with the children is obviously not ideal. Few days ago I was calculating the number of hours per week outside of school time they have. Minus sleep time, there really aren’t that many hours left. And to divide that in half of course it’s worse. I can only see it as if it happens, we will be forced to really cherish those hours we have with them. Make those hours count. And I believe that to be the case for the children too. I know when I leave them for a few hours, they appreciate me more when I come back. Lol. I see it as a practice to let go, because they will grow up one day and have their own identities other than “wooba’s children.”
Well, clearly I’m advocating for you to fire your H...but like wayfarer said, you do you. You get to wherever you want in your own timeline. Whatever it is, I am here to cheer you on virtually.
Honestly, WF, I think you're just a better person than me. I can't see myself ever getting there.
Hahahaha, I doubt that highly. You just aren't there with H yet. And my exH didn't try to leave me for another woman. He was far too busy with booze and pills. It's easier to forgive an addiction that isn't a person. AODA issues don't feel personal when you've had enough Al-anon or therapy. It takes years and years to accept that an addiction to another person isn't personal. And in your case a younger version of you...my god. (Oh hey btw Becky with the good hair, looks exactly like me but browner, dresses the same, same glasses. So clearly these guys have types.) You have a lot of justified rage. But I promise there will come a day when you are grateful that he was the one to give you those beautiful babies if absolutely nothing else.
Agreed. But our house is not toxic right now. I know it to my bones. I see it could get toxic because I think it has been in the past, and the girls are older now too and will pick up on a lot more of that than they did before. But today, I stand by the environment I'm giving them, today, as a mom is a good one.
You are a good one. And you'll see it happening. You're self aware. I have no doubt about that. I just worry how long you'll hold the line for out of spite or sheer determination. I know you are just as stubborn as I am, and I just wanted to make sure you can see how quickly your unaddressed rage and resentment and H's just all out delusions of grandeur and fence sitting can turn your quiet home into a uncomfortably silent home.
Knowing my girls, I think they are going to take this very, very badly. In different ways. I think my older daughter will be very angry, probably at both of us. I see her angry at her dad for leaving and angry at her mom for "making" him leave (even if I don't, but because I was mean to him or whatever she'll come up with as to why he had to choose to go.) The younger internalizes things and is incredibly sensitive emotionally. If one of us yells at her about something I'll often find her later, sobbing as if her heart is broken, saying she's a bad girl, this is all her fault, daddy or mommy (whoever yelled) doesn't love her. I know I need to get over this and I can get them therapists and all the rest. I just don't *see* that yet, that they will be fine. And so since I'm their mom and I can't see that yet, I don't see how I can authentically parent them through this and lie to them and myself about what I see in front of us. I will keep working at getting to a place where I see them better off with us apart, and then I think I can go full bore. But I can't do that until I get to that place (or until the decision is taken out of my hands, I guess-- in which case I can take the hand I'm dealt and do the very best I can).
You can't see it because you keep hearing from those of us who've seen people on the other side way on the other side. But like wooba said, they will have very big feelings over all of this. D17 did. She was very mad we couldn't work it out. She was pissed when I started dating. She was more pissed when we started doing things as a family with D16 and H. She was really, really pissed when exH started dating the lovely girl because he met her on Tinder and D17 found that disgusting and unsafe, and I just laughed at her and called her judgey. Then he blew up that relationship and tried to force the new winner of a gf on D17 and she was pissed yet again. This isn't smooth sailing. None of this stuff is. And even in the someday version of "everything will be ok" that is only a half truth. Things are ok eventually but not perpetually so. Life isn't static. Whether you and H work this out or not things are going to be hard on the girls. They are getting older. They are going to pick up when things are tense, and let say you work it out and go through years of therapy and marriage retreats and the whole 9 they are old enough to remember this and will look back on this time at some point and go "well sh!t so their marriage was falling apart." If you can't work it out and you separate and D it's the same things. They have to process those feelings multiple times. It's a life event. The way D17 sees our split now isn't the way she saw it at 9/10. It's an ongoing process. As much as you like to my dear, you can't stop your children from experiencing pain or blaming you for it. The only thing you can do is support them the best you can on sad days. And on the angry, love them enough for the both of you. That's it. And honestly you do know your girls better than anyone, but you can't, can't, can't know how they will handle S/D. Mother's are gifted with a lot of things, but predicting a reaction to a crisis isn't one of them.
I feel like maybe I'm not that great of a mom when I read this, and I think about H telling me I'm the one being selfish if I can't put them above my own feelings if we split. Maybe he's right. I can't. I can't see being the bigger person right now. I am angry and spiteful and want to use every weapon in my arsenal (besides them) to hurt him, if we go down that path. Maybe I'm afraid more of myself and who I am afraid I'll become than anything else.
I know if and when the time comes you'll do the right thing. That being said, if you don't adequately address that rage I've been telling you about you will not put their feelings above you're own. You won't be the bigger person. You will help to drag out the S/D for years to "win." You are a great mom. And you would never intentionally use your children as pawns but if you don't get the spiteful side in check before you move forward in one direction or another it may happen inadvertently. You need to find an outlet for this anger and you need to dump. The anger your feeling can not be meditated away. It needs to be confronted head on. And whether you scream into a canyon alone or buy a punching bag or find a rage room it needs to be dealt with. You need "You Oughta Know" on loud as h3ll and you need to work this out, because you deserve it. Because H deserves all this rage. AP deserves all this rage. But you're never going to get clear headed enough to detach appropriately if you don't confront that Hulk version of May you've been pushing down for IMO way too long.
I'm at a place right now where I feel I know I'll be OK if we split. Maybe better off. I'm not yet to the place where I think they'll be better off.
And I did not sign up to parent them half time. I want them full time. They are my kids and I want them with me. So if he was willing to run off into the sunset and do as he's saying he'll do right now (but which I don't actually believe), that they could stay here six of seven nights a week... then OK. But if he gets to go be an entitled @ss AND take away my children from me half of the nights a week? F HIM AND THE HORSE HE CAME IN ON. I am very angry about this idea and I don't don't don't want it. So that is a big thing for me too.
No one wants this. But statistics have show time and time again that 50/50 is what's best. You have to stop seeing it as H taking your kids away from you and looking at it as what is judiciously and statistically appropriate. 50/50 isn't about H and you. 50/50 is about the girls. It's that simple. And it is hard. And scary at first God it's so, so hard. And they are still young and so enjoyable. But in the year or two it would take to sort the whole S/D out they will be less young and I can tell you from experience less enjoyable. No matter what you miss them when they are gone. I cry every time D17 leaves. H worries immensely when D16 is by her bio mom. Constantly checking in. It isn't easy and I won't paint it as such. But that time, as long as there aren't any emergencies, becomes your time. And that is one of the great advantages to being in two households vs one. You have built in time that is just yours that you can do with as you please. You can sleep, you can read, you can watch movies they'd hate or aren't appropriate. When you're ready you can use that time to date. You can work extra hours on your off weeks so you can work a little less on the weeks you do have them so can make the most of your time with them. You can do extra work outs. Extra therapy. Extra meditating. Extra anything that's you time. You're children are not ripped away from you with split placement and custody. You are given time to GAL so when you do have them you can just focus on them. For a lot of us who carried the burden with household workload and parenting joint placement and custody was a god send. It honestly was the first time in years, I was able to do things for myself. Or get a drink after work. Sleep in undisturbed. As she's gotten older her leaving to go by exH and now just out since exH and her don't really do visits any more it's nice for her to just not be here or in my space. I love her. But my god. There's only so much teenage girl one person can take before they just resort to day drinking on a Tuesday. So much of this ugly stuff is how you frame it. Some times when you're swirling in the negative aspects of things you need to take a step back and look at what positives things can be brought with the same change.
I think awhile back Sage asked me if I could get to a place where I DGAF which path my H chose... I think I'm close to there. Scout asked what percentage of me wanted him to stay vs. go. I'm at say 55-45 right now. I want to get to 50-50.
Honey I honestly think you're already there.
Cardinal, I love you getting a glimmer of IDGAF. Fan those flames, girl. I think you are a looooooong ways away from turning bitter, if it is ever even possible for you. People here coached me on digging into my anger a little and I do think it has really helped me, even as it is disconcerting and destabilizing to be in that space.
Wooba, thanks for the good words on progress
I've been thinking about you a lot. I know you're so right about cherishing every hour you do have, and one day we will need to let them go completely. I have friends with college aged or slightly older children who are now living at home, and they are in seventh heaven to get all this extra amazing time with them because of the pandemic. My one friend whose kids are home told me she has laughed more in the last few months than she ever has, joking around with her kids, they started some sort of exercise competition that apparently is hilarious. I'm so happy for her and then think of how hard that transition must be. A colleague I work with, older, very stoic man, had his daughter go off to college last year. I asked him how he was doing about it the week after she left and he looked at me and said it was very, very hard. He had been sleeping in her bed since she left and the pillow smelt like her. I was like DANG MAN I can't believe you just told me that in my head-- and also how very, very difficult it had to have been for him to not only do that but to tell ME about it. Obviously he got over it but it was really staggering to think of what that must be like-- and his kid was 18. I was reading FS's thread about remembering the children going off on a vacation with their dad without her and how horrible that was and it made me want to throw up just thinking about it. I remember reading that part in her thread months ago and wanting to throw up then too.
Wayfinder, I know you’re right. I think I’ll be able to $uck it all up when the time comes and do what is right for the kids because I have to. I’ll find an outlet for my anger. I want it to power me through the next phases but I can’t let it affect the girls. I appreciate you being honest, though, that this all does just $uck. It isn’t okay. It is sad and awful and will be something that affects them for the rest of their lives. I feel like I can manage all of that and do it OK if it wasn’t my choice, though, you know what I mean? If it is something that happens TO me, I can deal with it and do my best and use whatever tools I have at my disposal to heal and be the best mom I can be. If I am responsible for the final decision, I am not yet to a place that I can do all of that.
Anyway. The kid part is hard. I told the IC yesterday that I can see two paths for me right now, equally difficult, equally OK, to stay in and work on the M and to go. That I've been focusing on the many positive things about not being M to him anymore and they feel good. In fact, when I think about staying, losing those things starts to feel like a shame (like my puppy) and are starting to loom larger and larger for me. But I also told her-- I purposely don't think about the kids when I'm doing this exercise. It is me and me only. If I let them creep into the picture it all comes crashing down.
The IC and I talked more about my anger about a bunch of things, not all having to do with the children-- the financial piece and loss of financial security is a big one. I feel like I’m keeping my anger where it is. Alison, mine isn’t a big beautiful bear. I imagine mine like a tornado (but round somehow) that hasn’t touched down yet but is spinning and hot and full of unbridled power. And when I need it, when that step of S is taken, it will touch down and power me down the path I need to take, clearing out everything in my way. I don’t know that that is a healthy thing (I didn’t talk about it in this way to the IC) but that is what I’m picturing, at least now. Still kind of untamable but somehow not as scary as the rabid bear I had earlier (or Wayfinder, the May Hulk).
We talked about grieving, too. She wants to start there next time. Even starting the conversation about my grief really opened something up in me. I went back through my journal and read about how I was feeling from earlier BDs and it rocked me again. I am feeling sad and low-level anxious again now, a little resigned.
We spent some time on H, can he change, why do I think he could, why do I think I could trust him again. And for me, again, it is this enduring belief that what we have between us is strong enough to weather this storm, that there is a possibility- however small it is starting to seem— that he *can* do the hard work, that I can too, that we end up on the other side of this stronger and better because of it. And I know I only control half of what it takes to get there. But I guess I’m still standing, I’m still here, because of this coupled with my inability to take a step that I think-- at least today-- will be detrimental to the children.
I also spent more time processing with her the real possibilities of the split time situation. Wayfarer, god, I hear you and I know you’re right. The kids absolutely deserve 50/50 time with them. What I’ve written out in a proposal (but haven’t shared with him yet formally, though we’ve talked about it a little) is that we’d stop after school care, he’d take them from 2:30 - 5:30 every day, I’d take them from 5:30 until bedtime (8:30) so that would be an even split of awake time. (Mornings are a $hitshow and don’t count.) I worked out a schedule where they spent the night with him Friday nights and he dropped them off with me at like 5:30 or something (I can’t remember exactly without looking it up) on Saturday and then we had exactly even awake time with them, but their home base was with me and they slept here every night. So they’d get 50-50 time with us, but because of the sleeping situation I’d have what is considered full custody and get child support.
I think it is fair and in alignment with what he’s said he wants. But, I also know that he’s an @sshole and will want to be an @ss when I’m no longer kissing his, and I can 100% believe that a few months down the line, especially with AP whispering in his ear, he’ll start to look at that child support payment and say why can’t they sleep here with me half the time? If he goes down the path of selfishness and entitlement, I have no reason to believe he’ll make any decisions that are in my best interest, allowing me to afford the mortgage payments on the house etc, no matter what he is saying now. So that is a part of it too.
And if I walk it will be the excuse he’ll sit in until we are 100 years old, that I was the one to make the decision. I know it in my heart. And I’m not yet detached enough to make that not matter. He’ll take my kicking him out and run with it. He’ll tell the children, he'll wallow in it, he'll throw it in my face at my granddaughter's wedding. And I’m not yet at a place where I’m okay with any of that.
The IC said she felt I was stronger and that the boundaries were really helping, encouraged me to stick with them. She pushed me a LOT on what happens if we don't go on this trip and when will I be ready to say enough? I said, IDK and she wouldn’t let that be the end. We talked about my core value of the family and what was best for the children, and I told her what I’d written above, about being able to walk when I can see that my parenting is being affected negatively, when I can see that the MR has deteriorated to the point where it is negatively affecting the children— then I can go. She was supportive of this, said that watching everyone’s emotional health will be important.
H and I talked more this morning. He tried a variety of different ways to get me to agree to just go on this trip without making it an ultimatum and referendum on everything. He said he’d been thinking what happens if I don’t go, does he go by himself, is there any way I would let him go with the girls for the whole time, but that he doesn’t want that. He wants me there. I feel like he’s setting this trip up as some kind of test, which is really stupid and I refuse to participate in some kind of beauty pageant to prove anything to my H.
I held my line. I said I can’t do it. I can’t do what you’re asking.
More of the same. He ended up saying he was mad at me. He feels like I don’t understand him and don’t try to. I’m not sure I see the point right now.
If I had to guess I think he’s going to do what I’m asking. I’m honestly not sure how I feel about that. I guess I'm pretty close to that 50-50 mark, Wayfinder-- you might be right. I really don't think I GAF anymore what he chooses. I just want him to put on his big boy pants, take responsibility for what he's created here, and make a decision, one way or another, to move forward.
You can make the final decision and it would still not be your choice. Your decision was based upon a very poor choice your husband made and carried on for some time. And what happened will probably come to light when your daughters are older and I’m pretty sure they would never ever blame you.
May, the custody arrangement you mentioned sounds... stressful. If you believe it will be a scorched earth kinda divorce, consider how seeing (X)H on a daily basis might make you feel. If your interactions with him are strained, as you suggest they will be, the kids could end up living in a constant state of tension around these frequent handovers. Being unable to have their evening routine at dad’s place might also interfere with their ability to feel comfortable in what will be their other home. I have to ask, would this be an attempt to keep OW from being involved in your kids’ lives? Trust me, I COMPLETELY understand wanting to have your little chicks safe in the nest every night. I also completely understand the feeling that H doesn’t deserve to recreate the lovely family life he chose to leave. I’m just wondering what the downside would be for the kids to spend three or so nights a week with their dad if he is the fantastic father you say he is? For instance, what are your objections to a 4-4-3-3 arrangement, or some other form of 50-50 custody? Curious what H’s thoughts are about not having any weekday evenings if you’ve already discussed this with him. This is by far the worst part of S/D and I just encourage you make sure your motivations align with your principles. I’m sure you are doing that already, but I’m interested in how you came up with this unusual arrangement.
I am also going to chime in on the 50/5@ custody schedule you have outlines.
I don’t have 50/50. More like 70/30. But my daughter has been at this for 13 years. (She’s 13) and she’s been vocal about what works for her. Splitting nights is very stressful on the kids. Having to shift gears so much, not being able to settle in for the night, knowing they go from school, to one home to any other is just too much. My daughter greatly expresses the less movement, the better.
The hardest part is deciding what’s best for us, vs. what’s best for them. And making so many transitions in one day is just too much. I know of course you want as much time as you’d an have with them, and will miss them when they are at the other parents house...... but I can tell you, it won’t work for them. What’s worked for a lot that I know have 50/50 is every other weekend, one mare to gets Monday Tuesday, the other gets Wednesday Thursday .
I’m not telling you what to do, but I thought I might be able to help given I’ve been doing this for so long. The split week nights are just to much for them
Hi Scout and Ginger,
This is so helpful to be able to walk through this with other people. Here's where I'm coming from:
H has said for months now that if we S/D, what he wants is for me to stay in the house with the girls. This is their home and he doesn't want that to change. He thinks the stress of going back and forth would be too much. His original idea was that he'd pay half the mortgage and half the bills, would get to keep all his cr@p in the basement (tools, surfboards, etc), have a key, stay half owner of the house, girls would live with me here full time, he'd pick them up from school (he can be done working much earlier than me), take them to soccer or whatever, and we'd have dinner together most nights as a family then he'd go home to OW. He'd still mow the lawn, take care of the house and take care of me.
I have consistently said no, this would never ever work.
He maintains he needs to see the children every day. Being a father is a major part of his identity and he doesn't want to go a day without seeing them. Also, his ideal would be that he and AP would live next door. he has said that even a 20 minute drive is too far away from them. He wants to be around the corner.
On my end, having the children sleep here and waking up with them is really important to me. We have a ritual where every weekend morning (and right now every single morning because of COVID) the girls come snuggle with me in bed and we chat and cuddle for awhile. H sometimes joins in, but he's a morning person and is usually already off working or surfing. It is our thing and I love love love it. I had told H early on, before I even knew about AP but knew he was unhappy, ILYB etc., that one of my biggest fears in being Ded was waking up to an empty house.
Also, in my state, child support depends on how many nights they sleep at your house-- so a 50/50 arrangement where they sleep half the nights at mom's and half the nights at dad's means there is no child support, unless one party makes more money than the other, in which case there is some amount based on the discrepancy that goes to the lower earning party (the idea being that they don't want the kids to live in a mansion with one parent and a $hithole with the other). I was worried, for awhile, that I might have to pay HIM because of this but this year we're actually making about the same amount of money. I looked into child support because I don't want him on the deed or the mortgage and I don't trust that he'd just "give" me half the mortgage plus bills... also, the calculated child support amount is significantly more than half the mortgage. I also don't think he has looked at any of this at all. I can't afford this mortgage without child support or I suppose major lifestyle changes.
Of the Ded families I know well enough to know their schedule-- my neighbor does 4/3/3/4, the friend with the super high conflict D splits the week and does every other weekend, the friend with the surface idyllic co-parenting has the daughter sleep with her every night, but she works really long hours and so drops the daughter off at the dad's (he lives down the hill from her) on her way into work, he walks her to school and picks her up after, and the mom grabs her from his house after work. They switch off weekends. And my final friends who used to have dinners and vacation together for the past five years-- until he met someone else, promptly got her pregnant, and she hates the exW (loooong story)-- the dad has primary custody and the mom has the kid one night during the week and every other weekend, though the mom might have more time now that the dad has a new baby and the new GF doesn't really like the older son or want him around much.
Yes, Scout, I absolutely want to keep them away from OW. I have written into the agreement (not that he has seen it yet LOL but I did it for me to be prepared) that either of us would need to see someone for a year post-separation to introduce them to the children and two years before sleeping over at the house in front of them. I don't know if he'd go for that. I've told him that I don't want her part of their lives and I don't want them ever to meet her. Obviously that would be ridiculous but I figured I'd put something out there to start negotiating from. And, I really think it isn't good for the children to have a parade of "friends" going through their lives.
Anyway, that is pretty much where this all came from-- started with him, I decided I'd be fine with the after school pick up till 5:30 since I'd usually be working then anyway so it would be extra time, basically, that we used to not have them, and it wouldn't cut into my regular time with them every day. He wants to take them on hikes and adventures anyway so he could have that time to do that kind of thing-- that is his heaven. I could pick them up (with my sunglasses on :)) or he could drop them off, I'm not imagining the need for face to face contact on a daily basis. I had originally proposed to him verbally with this that he could take them for one full weekend day and he'd said he imagined they'd stay Friday nights with him, so I penciled that all out and I think if he drops them back with me on Saturday at 5:30 pm we each get 17 waking hours over the weekend.
May what can you control?
Trying to control your H on who he dates or when he introduces them to the kids. You could have an agreement but it would never be legally binding. You could potentially rant and rave and get yourself all upset when it does happen... what do you gain? You are potentially creating a bigger world of hurt for yourself.
You have to picture a life of D that you have no say in Hs life or what he does with the kids when he is with them... that rule goes both ways.
I feel you are just spinning your wheels trying to place rules on your H of what life will be if you D. Just as you find it ridiculous that he is going to continue to live at your home like a happy family until night time... that's how he is going to ser your rules.
If you are looking at S or D you need to limit thoughts to what you can do legally and what you truly have control of which is just yourself.
Maybe putting that focus 100% back on yourself is what you need to strive for. If you are thinking about D you are going to have to come to terms that your children will not be with you every morning. It's a terrible thought... it nearly broke me when my son was just 2... but you find a new normal. And, it does get to the point that you are ready for those breaks when they are away because you make the most if when you have them.
I'm sorry your H is so wishy washy and living in fantasy world. The back and forth of it all has to be exhausting.
Now find your 3 things for you today!!!!
May, your strength is really shining right now. I’m so pleased to read that you are standing firm with H and his behaviours, and ensuring you do what’s right for you over this trip.
I know you had a boundary around him blocking AP and deleting WhatsApp ahead of the trip, but is there anything else you want or need in order to go? (I have been trying to catch up daily but might have missed some posts). Are you wanting him to commit to the M before you agree to go? I’m just wondering what long term assurances you need before you can go - if any. Or is it simply a case of a month-long trip without her in the picture...but then what? In what capacity would you go on this trip? Mother? Wife? Friend/Co-parent?
Re the custody arrangement, I know how awful it is for your children to go and spend time in another home, leaving you alone. It’s not what you signed up to, and I totally felt resentful that H had taken away my M, my H, potentially my home and also my children. Why should HE get to live the life he wants whilst mine is in tatters? It certainly was a bitter pill to swallow, and it was painful. But I came to realise that those nights without the children were time for me. Where is May’s time in this arrangement? Hiking with friends one weekend, dinner or night out with bestie, maybe one day a date, or perhaps simply watching a film that’s not age-appropriate for your kiddos, or an indulgent bath and early night in an empty house? I’m not suggesting that this is how you are, but I found looking beyond the pain of my H taking my children from me, there were ways I could make the time alone to be a gift. You need time to GAL, right? To get out there and meet potential partners. This might be so far off your radar right now , but whilst you’re at home with the children every night, you aren’t out meeting OM. I’m not suggesting this as a manipulation technique but equally it doesn’t harm for H to know you want time to get out make new friends.
I will also admit, perhaps ashamedly, perhaps unashamedly, that I often thought about how I could make life difficult for H and I figured that any controlling on my part would make me look bitter. I’m a little worried about you exerting any 1-year/2year rule re other partners. It is an important discussion to have but perhaps it needs to be a discussion and not a condition that you set out? If H is the great father that you really see, then he will fully subscribe to the sensitivity of introducing a new woman into his children’s lives. If he does this prematurely, chances are they will gravitate towards you and may manifest behaviours about not wanting to see him in her presence. Perhaps I am projecting my own experience but my Ds were fiercely loyal and said the would not be ready for a long time to accept a new woman in their dad’s life. (It’s probably wholly irrelevant but I have been trying to figure out how your H and AP are going to build this dream life together, on his reduced spending capacity, and her needing to move interstate but not move in with him until such a time that he can introduce her to the children. I suppose that rational thinking goes out of the window in the name of true love.... ugh)
May, you are doing brilliantly and whatever the outcome you will will have been true to yourself and your children. You deserve so much happiness. I hope a-hole can pull something out of the bag before the trip, but if he can’t , one day you will know that you acted on what you deserve, which wasn’t second best. I am so rooting for you honey, tonight’s G&T will be for you and your happy life xx
Regarding custody arrangements: it doesn't really matter what is best for you, or for your H and his OW, or what is more convenient, or fits in better with yours and his work schedules. It only matters what is better for your kids, and that might be an arrangement that evolves. It isn't something you can work out on the back of an envelope now.
Hi May,
These terms are very favorable towards you in terms of him paying 100% support and the kids staying with you every night. Once he finally detaches from you there's a good chance OW will convince him to re-negotiate. My GF also have VERY favorable child support terms. She built into the agreement that they get a little less favorable every 4 years. That reduces the urge of the ex-H to fight to improve them, which obvious he can, since he's facing four more years of pain instead of twenty.
Prepare for a highly favorable planned schedule being temporary. He may want to change the terms to 50% custody and 0% support or every other weekend custody and 75% support, he may ignore the terms on when and how to introduce the OW, and that daily hand-offs might become anxious events for your kids.
Regarding custody arrangements: it doesn't really matter what is best for you, or for your H and his OW, or what is more convenient, or fits in better with yours and his work schedules. It only matters what is better for your kids, and that might be an arrangement that evolves. It isn't something you can work out on the back of an envelope now.
I am just so not prepared for this, yet. I know you're right. I'm not ready.
These terms are very favorable towards you in terms of him paying 100% support and the kids staying with you every night. Once he finally detaches from you there's a good chance OW will convince him to re-negotiate. My GF also have VERY favorable child support terms. She built into the agreement that they get a little less favorable every 4 years. That reduces the urge of the ex-H to fight to improve them, which obvious he can, since he's facing four more years of pain instead of twenty.
Prepare for a highly favorable planned schedule being temporary. He may want to change the terms to 50% custody and 0% support or every other weekend custody and 75% support, he may ignore the terms on when and how to introduce the OW, and that daily hand-offs might become anxious events for your kids.
Yes. You're right. This is why, while I briefly flirted with the idea of moving towards D myself in order to secure more favorable terms for myself (seeing what was going on with Wooba, also), after much thought and knowing H as well as I do, I decided it was just a mirage and would never stick. He'll absolutely want to move to 50-50 even if the first round gets me what I want. The only thing that is potentially at risk is the house-- if we D a couple years down the line and he's bitter, he really loves this house. But I wouldn't cry about selling it if we had to. So preemptive filing no longer makes sense, for me, from this perspective.
KC, I hear you. I don't actually care if he thinks I'm a control freak once we split. Zero percent of what I do will be in any attempt to make him think one thing or another about me, unless I think it is important for the kids. I think this has all been a good exercise for me but I feel myself retreating back into the not wanting to D place because of it. I'm just not ready to embrace this future. If it comes, fine. I'll deal with it. I can't willingly go there right now given what it means-- and not just what is best for the children, but what it means in terms of the time I get with them and the control I have as a parent.
I have an acquaintance who Ded from her H maybe 5-6 years ago. I had drinks with her one night and she was talking about how her H was doing dumb, potentially dangerous things with their child-- not illegal, just stupid. I can't remember exactly what it was. She said if she had known how divorcing would have removed her voice in how her ex parented, she would not have done it. That she had totally underestimated how much they collaborated in parenting before and not having any say in what he did with their child when the kid was with the dad was excruciating and she felt dangerous. A year or so later, we were out for drinks with some other people and they showed up together and left together-- apparently they have gotten back together. That conversation always stuck with me and I've wondered how much that parenting factor led to their R.
Pommy... Pommy!! it is so good to hear from you. How are YOU?? We need an update, please!
I know you had a boundary around him blocking AP and deleting WhatsApp ahead of the trip, but is there anything else you want or need in order to go? (I have been trying to catch up daily but might have missed some posts). Are you wanting him to commit to the M before you agree to go? I’m just wondering what long term assurances you need before you can go - if any. Or is it simply a case of a month-long trip without her in the picture...but then what? In what capacity would you go on this trip? Mother? Wife? Friend/Co-parent?
I'm asking that he make a commitment to remove her from his life for good, or at least go into it with that intention. So not that he won't be in contact with her for this trip, but that his intention is to not be in contact with her for good. I'd prefer that he commits to the M before the trip but I don't think that is possible right now. I don't want to vacation together worrying that AP will reach out today or tomorrow or next month and throw another bomb. I think *he* wants to have a nice family vacation as a little test run, honestly, and I just think that is stupid and impossible while you keep one foot in the door for AP. I want that door shut firmly. He says he wants me to understand him and to be open and vulnerable with him, to not shut down and put up my boundaries or default to anger when we start talking about difficult things, but I told him that is simply not possible for me to do with AP waiting in the wings. It just won't happen. If he wants to really try to see if our R could be fixed, letting her go completely is a necessary step. if he can't do that, then we shouldn't bother.
I don't think it is realistic at this point for either of us to expect that just because she's gone that our R will work out. But there is just no point to pretending to even try to work on our M while she's hovering around in the background. I think if we go it will be more as friends/co-parents.
I came to realise that those nights without the children were time for me. Where is May’s time in this arrangement? Hiking with friends one weekend, dinner or night out with bestie, maybe one day a date, or perhaps simply watching a film that’s not age-appropriate for your kiddos, or an indulgent bath and early night in an empty house? I’m not suggesting that this is how you are, but I found looking beyond the pain of my H taking my children from me, there were ways I could make the time alone to be a gift. You need time to GAL, right? To get out there and meet potential partners. This might be so far off your radar right now , but whilst you’re at home with the children every night, you aren’t out meeting OM. I’m not suggesting this as a manipulation technique but equally it doesn’t harm for H to know you want time to get out make new friends.
Yes, I've thought of this, and I do love me some me time. That is part of why my proposal had him taking the kids Friday nights, so that I could do my own thing. And, writing in first right of refusal for watching the children, because I have work events other nights sometimes and would probably want to do other things other nights, and I know I could ask him to take the kids (either at my house or his) for those times. In my head, if AP was here and living with him, he'd either not take them to the house when he had them-- spend the time outside which is what he loves anyway-- or she would have to vamoose. And they couldn't spend the night there until enough time had gone by. I know this is all unrealistic but since I truly can't even tiptoe into picturing her with my children without wanting to rip heads off of chickens, I need to stay away from that place right now, and proposing these terms was where I wanted to start. And yes, I was not thinking of it like my conditions, more like the starting point for negotiations/discussions.
I have a new gin to try and will raise a G&T to you tonight, Pommy! Much love.
May, I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but there was zero mention of the kids’ needs in that explanation. Just a) H getting what he wants, b) May getting what she wants, c) May punishing H for leaving. In that order.
I think this is still the fantasy D; not just for your H, but for you as well. You’re enabling his entitlement, selfishness, and refusal to take responsibility with this arrangement, and allowing this because it suits you and you’re afraid of the alternatives. But this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best arrangement for the kids. His parenting time consists of daily hikes and outings, a fun sleepover once a week, and a weekend day for adventures? What about homework, meals, chores, bedtime, and the morning sh!tshow? He gets out of all that quite nicely. Your kids will very quickly understand that H is the fun parent and that Mum’s house means rules and drudgery, and they might resent you and disrespect him.
If they are out gallivanting with H on his time, they will likely just want to crash when they’re with you. They’ll be grumpy and tired and you won’t get the quality time that you deserve. But more importantly, the kids will get jack of being treated like shared toys between the two of you. You both want to play with them, but when would they get any downtime to just chill out at home, whichever home that might be? How will they feel about three hours here, three hours there once they get into high school and want to hang out with their friends or do extracurricular activities? How will they feel being shuttled between homes every day of the week? How would you feel if it were you?
Just gently pointing out that not allowing them at H’s place when OW is there could make them feel unsafe around this person who will be a large part of their lives.
I totally get wanting to maintain stability for the kids. I just don’t think this is where your H is coming from with this plan, and I think you’re going with it because you’re afraid to lose control. Feel free to tell me I’m wrong though - this is just my opinion. This is all hypothetical and and it’s meant with love
PS. As someone whose OW appears to be deeply involved in my kid’s life, let me tell you that you won’t want to rip heads off chickens forever. It’ll hurt the first time it happens. It will get easier. Then one day you’ll realise you’ve reached acceptance and you truly don’t care any more. And let me tell you, it’s a wonderful place to be.
Scout....
You're right. This plan may not be the best for the children. It does allow me to afford to keep the house, which we both think is important for them to have a home rather than shuttle back and forth. I hadn't thought about them being tired and cranky and me being homework mom and him being fun dad. Honestly? This all just $UCKS.
I'm just not ready to take this step on my own. I'll figure it out if I need to, and like Alison says, it will change and the kids have to be at the center and it isn't something I can do on the back of the envelope right now. Maybe we'll get them into therapy and get assistance in figuring out what is best.
The thing is... I simply don't want this. Not for them, not for me. And the other truth is, I don't think my H does either. He talks a big game when it comes to twu wuv (I loved that BTW) and he deserves happiness and all the rest. But when his fantasy is starting to fade, between me not buying into his dream D and AP wanting more children... I really don't think he wants to go and experience all the $hitty reality of what that entails. He doesn't want to sleep in a different house from the children either. He kisses them before he goes to sleep every single night. One night a couple of weeks ago he came to bed crying after he did it at the thought that he might not get to do that every night. I really don't think he wants this any more than I do.
I'm just sticking to the course right now. He'll do whatever he does and we'll go forward from there. I think I'm done worrying about it for right now. It takes too much energy. He'll do whatever he does and I'll deal with it. He says we're going on this trip. He had an extra IC appointment this morning, came upstairs afterwards and hugged me and said this is all hard. Just gotta do the next right thing (we just watched Frozen 2 again). So. We'll see. I think I've reached the IDGAF stage.
He says we're going on this trip.
Is this what you're looking for? It still reeks of arrogance and entitlement to me.
He tells you, and proves it, that he has cut all contact with her, blocked her from all devises, and that he plans to keep it that way. He apologises for taking so long to do it and accusing you of being controlling when you asked him for it. Then he ASKS you if you would consider going on the trip.
THAT, you deserve.
A liar and a cheat telling you where you will go and what you will do? You deserve so much better, May. And no matter how hard shared custody is and how difficult it is to adjust to, it WILL be better than you continuing to allow yourself to be treated this way.
I'd be very hesitant to make big concessions on what you need to feel happy/comfortable on this trip. He'd be learning he can indeed wear down your boundaries to get things his way.
Hi Alison, CW,
When he said we're going on this trip, he had also said he was going to do what I had asked, but I was pretty much discounting that since there didn't seem to be a real plan or whatever, and I was waiting for that.
Yesterday morning, I asked what his plans were. It started off as a fight (on his end at least)-- I was telling him what to do yet again, he can't feel controlled and "submit" to my requirements, I was forcing an ultimatum and threatening him, etc. He said the request felt reasonable but it wasn't being put to him in a reasonable way. I didn't really argue back but stuck to my position.
We ended up talking a lot, all day. I told him I was open to discussing and coming up with a solution together, but I didn't envision changing my mind around what I needed in order to move forward. I explained where I was coming from-- I didn't think I could enjoy the trip worrying they might be in touch, I couldn't enjoy it worrying they'd be back in touch when we returned, I didn't *want* to relax and enjoy it only to have another BD in a month or two-- my mental health simply couldn't take it. And he said he wanted this trip in order to be a family and be together, to rebuild and re-knit the fabric of our relationship-- and I said I couldn't give him that without knowing she was out of the picture, there were technological assists to help make sure that happened, and that he had the intention of keeping it that way. Also, that HE couldn't honestly focus on our R if he still has the possibility of her in the back of his mind (as apparently was the case in the spring).
Anyway, talking it through really helped, I think it helped him to feel like it was something we were coming to together as partners, instead of it being something I was telling him to do. He acknowledged he couldn't really try with us if she was still potentially in the picture. For the first time, he talked about really letting her go and what M2.0 between us could look like, rebuilding intimacy, falling back in love with each other. (Always before the best he could do was we'd be good friends.)
I told him what I needed in order to be able to go on this trip as a family and do as he wants (truly re-engage with him... he felt even in the spring I never really opened up to him, I go from sad to angry so quickly, and am not open or vulnerable with him). I said that was absolutely impossible for me to be vulnerable to him or to let go of the anger with her in the picture in any way. I'm not trying to punish him. It is just not possible. And I said over and over-- if he can't do this, if he can't let her go, if he can't give our R 100%-- then there is simply no point. Then the best thing to do is to D. I'm willing to give this a shot but only if he'll do it too, 100 percent, no foot holding the door open for AP just in case.
He's in a session with his IC now working out next steps, exactly what he will say to AP and how he can do it in a way that will be satisfactory to me, the blocking, etc. We will see.
Hi May,
I'll cross my fingers for you and his current IC session.
Saw this quote today and thought of you:
"Every day,
I give up for 20 minutes,
but decide to push through on the 21st.
Survival is a ritual, a ceremony, and a practice."
Take care of yourself.
May - for what its worth, we all went on a RV trip together down the Oregon coast. My H was in contact with her, I knew that, but I didn't say a word. Yeah, that part sucked, but I focused on the trip, getting out, being with the kids and really enjoyed myself.
I mostly kept my mouth shut around him. If he wanted to converse, then we did. When he seemed cranky, I just gave him lots of space. He never seemed happy and would never say he enjoyed himself. But later, much later, he told me how much fun he did have - and how he enjoyed being with the family- and how all he was doing was heavy on his mind. They KNOW they are doing terrible things. But it makes them feel better when WE are acting "badly" because it just confirms that we are bad spouses and its really our fault.
I know your H is way different than mine, so shut him out when he gets chatty - focus on bonding with the girls. Let him see what he would be losing if he did pursue the ow. Don't get baited. Smile, be friendly or at least cordial, make the coffee (if your making your own) and swallow your pride - be agreeable. You can cry in your bunk at night. He KNOWS your hurting, he is not blind. Figure out what is your goal? Do you want to be together? if so, work towards that don't get tripped up in all these R talks, at least put that away on the trip so you can enjoy it and make some great memories with the kids.
Hi May
I have to be honest, I don't know what, if anything, your H could say or do which will give you the comfort that you need that he will NEVER contact her. I don't think he could confidently tell you he will NEVER contact her again. It is like an addict saying there will never be a time when they want to take a hit again. What you have to ask yourself, is right, now are you willing to take it one day at a time.
He has to have the will power to say "No - today my actions will not be driven by my desires". And that is something only he can control. If he contacts her, you will never know. So you have to make a conscious decision to trust him (or not). If you do not trust him, then all his words and all his actions will make no difference. He sits on the toilet too long and in your mind he is texting, he goes for a walk, and in your mind he is texting, his phone beeps and in your mind it is her.
I am a smoker. Each time I quit, I count the days, then the weeks, then the months since my last cigarette. Then one day something will happen which makes me pick up a cigarette (it's mainly H related, but sometimes it's as simple as being out with friends), and then I start counting days again. Even after months and months of not smoking, I will always say I am a smoker who has not had a cigarette today. The desire will always be there. But, I can choose not to act on them. In the first month I see smokers everywhere. In the second month, I might only see them on those times I would normally have a cigarette, in the third month, I barely notice at all unless something reminds me (e.g. someone offers me a cigarette at the pub or my H and I have had a particularly difficult interaction).
He sounds like he wants to try.
Trying is half the battle.
Scout... I love that. Copying to my phone.
CW... thank you. It sounds like it went well. He hasn't shared details of exactly what he is going to say to her but I don't really need to know, I think, except for the broad strokes. He knows what I have asked for in order to go on this trip and try to work on our relationship. He'll do it or he won't. He said last night he plans on doing it today. We haven't really talked much so I don't know what the deal is. Trying to continue to not GAF either way.
BlueSea, thank you for that story... I was thinking about your RV trip in all of this. I don't want to go if she's still in the picture. But I think you're right in that I want to be able to focus on the children and having fun and not feel worried about what he's thinking or doing or whatever. We have been talking about doing an MC session before we leave to talk about communication. I feel like I gave him a lot of space in the spring when he broke it off with her last time, and now he's saying he never felt we really reconnected during that time. I think we weren't really communicating about real stuff or feelings during that time.
I guess I'm wondering if we do go on this trip if I treat it like piecing or just keep DBing a la Wayfinder (Wayfinder, any thoughts?). I think the key was that last time I never felt like we were piecing because he never looked me in the eyes and said he wanted to work on our M, that he could envision M2.0. He mostly moped around feeling sorry for himself and I gave him space and then started to get all freaked out that he was going to want to sweep this all under the rug and never address the A.
This time there are some key differences-- he's talked about M2.0, falling back in love with me, feeling like this time he's saying goodbye to her for good, not with this half-hearted thought in the back of his head that he'd "try" with me for a year and it wouldn't work and maybe she'd still be waiting around... he feels like this is it, now. So, assuming he does do what I'm asking, and he continues to talk about working on our MR in a real way and not half-@ssing it like last time, I feel like we're in a different place, somewhat. We will see. He has a loooooong way to go for me to trust him again and a lot of stuff he needs to work on for himself, why he did this, etc etc. And I have things to work on too. And we would have to build our MR up from the ground all over again. But this time he's the one talking about that, not me.
I have to be honest, I don't know what, if anything, your H could say or do which will give you the comfort that you need that he will NEVER contact her. I don't think he could confidently tell you he will NEVER contact her again. It is like an addict saying there will never be a time when they want to take a hit again. What you have to ask yourself, is right, now are you willing to take it one day at a time.
He has to have the will power to say "No - today my actions will not be driven by my desires". And that is something only he can control. If he contacts her, you will never know. So you have to make a conscious decision to trust him (or not). If you do not trust him, then all his words and all his actions will make no difference. He sits on the toilet too long and in your mind he is texting, he goes for a walk, and in your mind he is texting, his phone beeps and in your mind it is her.
FS, you are totally right. In fact, this was the prime "concession" I made in our conversation over the weekend-- he said all those same things, he can't predict the future, he can't say he'll never ever speak to her again. All he can say is that he does not intend to reconnect with her and that is something he will need to do every day.
Last time, he wanted to have access to her contact information so that he felt he was making a conscious choice in not reaching out to her rather than leaning on technology. In fact, if it were up to him, he would like to do the same this time. I am holding to (a) we tried that before and it didn't work (b) you should set yourself up for success and there is a reason we tossed all the sugary snacks in the house before we did the Whole 30, and by the end we weren't craving sugar any more; and (c) *I* need more than your word this time, so that isn't going to be enough for me. Plus, the biggest part for me is the bomb she threw in May, she's moving on, which I believe started all of this. It wormed into his mind and he ended up reaching back out to her with a stupid excuse and it just cascaded from there.
I spent a lot of time angry with him for not really trying in the spring, and he has said over and over he DID try. And I have come to the conclusion that I believe he did, in fact, really try. But by not cutting off all communication channels with her, and leaving that key difference open in his mind-- he was not recommitting to the M but simply ending his A, and wasn't truly letting go of any possibility of being with her again-- he set us up to fail. So I do trust his intention and words when he tells me he has the intention of never speaking to her again. I just need some technological support around it and to remove the ability for her to throw any more bombs in our lives. But fundamentally, I do trust him if he does this. Maybe if he was more agreeable to doing it in the beginning I'd trust it less. But he is DEFINITELY not telling me what I want to hear in any of this, which gives me more faith that when he says something, it is true. And I'm kind of a trusting fool. I talked about this with my IC. It has bit me at work in the past. But I'm also okay with that. That is who I am and I don't want to change it, and I'll take the hits that inevitably come with that. So, yes, I do feel like I'll have enough trust to enjoy this trip if he does as I've requested.
But anyway, I acknowledged that what I need is his intention to end contact with her and his intention to work on the MR with me, which necessitates him doing all he can to remove her from his head. I am no longer asking him to tell me he'll never speak to her again. Saying that his intention is to never speak with her again, today, is all he can do and all I am asking. This change was helpful for him. (Though maybe more about me admitting I was wrong to ask something he can't give than the actual change-- I think it felt less like me dictating what he should do because I was willing to listen to him and adjust.)
We also talked about him holding onto the vigilance for me-- instead of me needing to ask "who are you texting with" him knowing that at least for awhile it will be on my mind and doing me the favor of saying "oh I just got this text from so-and-so" so that I don't have to worry. He actually started doing this already the last couple of days, which is kind of nice. I'm waiting to see if he'll do this with the blocking etc., or if I need to ask. I really really really don't want to be the one to ask.
Anyway... FS I was also thinking again how similar our situations are. I am also half-Asian (Japanese) and of course you know my H used to be a pilot. I was thinking how much that job must reinforce the ego-- being the captain, everything you say goes, everyone is deferential to you. I know for myself in my job, I need to be careful what I say in meetings because if I am too decisive in what I say everyone else will just shut up and the decision was made without getting input from others. I need to purposely hold my thoughts and encourage others to share. But I also recognize how heady and attractive that feeling can be for some people-- what you say goes, everyone listens. My H's job is absolutely that-- he is a consultant and his entire job is telling people what to do and they eat it up all day long-- and then you come home to a W who feels like it is her job to sometimes take you down a notch. I think it is hard for him to code switch at home to being a partner instead. And TBH it is probably hard for me to do the same, sometimes.
May, thank you for the great advice on my thread. I’m going to answer there later, but just wanted to say how proud of you I am in your situation. I think you are doing amazing in your boundaries and resolve and I can SO relate to the hopeful, ‘trusting fool’ that you are. That’s me to a T, and regardless of where things go in my R, I am proud to be an optimistic, ‘trusting of humankind’ member of society. You should be too.
I also just need to take an (un-evolved) moment to say how much I hate WhatsApp. OW is the only American H speaks with on that app and although it is a mainstay communication app for the rest of the world, it seems to be only used in our country for hidden communication. Deleting it isn’t possible for us, due to family and friends that only use it to communicate with us, but FFS. I HATE IT.
Rant over.
Reading your update, from the hopeful eyes of another ‘trusting fool’, I think that you and H are on the right path. It seems you are navigating his view of your ‘control’ issues with your reasonable expectations of his actions with grace. And it reads as though your H is slowly starting to understand where both he and you are at. Having said that, I am sure there will be some unexpected twists. Such as his depression at the end of their affair (which may not hit until you are on your camper-van way). What can you do now to steel yourself against that sort of emotional onslaught? Especially considering that your H ‘needs’ to process those types of emotions with you? In addition to being a sister in ‘trusting fools’ I am also your sister in needing to plan. Are your boundaries firm enough to deal with that right now? If not, how can you make them stronger?
You are doing amazing all considering and I am so hopeful for the directions things are going with your situation.
May - I have to say that even if he deletes all her contact information, if someone wants to find someone, they will. FB, Instigram, Twitter. As long as he has her name, he will find her. I'm not saying he will. I'm just saying this type of thing takes self motivation. And there's a reason it's called 'self' motivation. He controls it. Not you. Trust him or don't trust him. But you have to commit to the trust. You have to not assume the worst every time he looks at his phone or is gone a little too long.
I have read a lot of stuff about divorce and pilots - the fact that when they are away they are kings of their little kingdom. A continuing stream of people who look up to and respect them and follow their every word. They are in charge. And whilst they are away, we establish routines, bedtimes, school runs, taking the rubbish out, getting the groceries, calling in repair men. So use to being in charge, they come back and feel lost, no-one is deferring to them, or even worse, they come back and get hit with four days worth of problems at once "the dishwasher's broken" or "X did this in school".
I understand know how hard that must have been. Throw in unconscious resentment on my part - he gets to go away for four days and leave me at home with two young kids, his job is viewed by everyone as more amazing (god I hated how everyone fawned on him when he told them he was a pilot) even though its my job that pays most of the bills and what you get is him feeling emasculated when he gets in.
I wish I could talk to him about this now. But it is too late. It is not too late for you.
Thank you, Sage! I heart you.
On the WhatsApp... I KNOW! Only I wish I knew that earlier as I totally snooped on his phone multiple times back in the fall (bad I know but oh well) but in my head, WhatsApp was *only* for communicating with people outside of the US so I didn't even look at it on his phone. I researched communication apps to see if I could find some sneaky app on his phone and no luck. Oh well. He told me the other day that WhatsApp is encrypted and messages only exist on the two devices that are used for the communication, and when you delete a message it is gone forever. Maybe part of the reason WASs like it. Anyway. I know my H was kind of embarrassed once he told me they primarily communicated via WhatsApp rather than phone/texting like non-cheating people. It made it feel a little dirtier, I think. Good.
I actually proposed to him the other day that I not go on the first week of the trip. (Assuming that he does what I'm asking.) That he take the girls and I work and we have a week on our own and then I'll meet up with them, which I actually think would be good for both of us. If we did that, though, I'd want to change the itinerary as the hotel I really want to stay at the most is at the beginning. I told him he'd probably be mourning to a certain extent and maybe that would be good to have a little space.
He said, he didn't want that. That if we were trying to work on our R he wanted to be together. That he'd been mourning for (one or two weeks? IDK... time is not moving as it should.... but whenever they stopped communicating) and he didn't think more time would be helpful for that. He said that every time we've been on a family vacation it has been a lot of fun and he's really enjoyed it, but always felt a little guilty knowing that AP was so angry/upset about it. (He said she HATED when we went on family vacations). And that one of the things that was really positive about the spring was that he didn't feel guilty any more for having fun at home with me, and so that is something he is really looking forward to on this trip. So, we will see. But I think you're right that I need to have some plans in place for when he does inevitably go downhill.
I am studiously avoiding bringing up the situation. I don't think he did it today or he would have told me. I really want to ask but I haven't. We're sitting across from each other now, he asked if I wanted to share a nice beer, we have been chatting and working on and off. We were talking about chatting apps, the value of Slack etc., and I asked him who else he talked with on WhatsApp. It is really not anyone he couldn't move to text or email. I said nothing about that but said I think it is possible, by the way, to block someone who has already blocked you-- you just need to type in their phone number... and he said OK and then got all quiet. So I guess I didn't not talk about it... oh well.
I'm a slow learner!
may, I am glad to see your H seems to be moving toward really trying on his own terms. I am always rooting for you. I wonder if it puts too much unnecessary pressure on yourself to try to decide whether trip is more DBing or piecing? Is this the point where you would sort of throw that distinction out the window for a bit and just focus on what feels right to you, for you moment by moment? Or would it maybe put too much pressure on the both of you if you had it in your head you were, like, officially in the piecing stage as soon as the car let the driveway? Maybe in choosing to accept or agree with your H's perspective that if you're working on your R, you're on the trip together--maybe that tells you enough? Obviously, my role here is to just ask a bunch more questions I don't have the answers to.
May - I have to say that even if he deletes all her contact information, if someone wants to find someone, they will. FB, Instigram, Twitter. As long as he has her name, he will find her. I'm not saying he will. I'm just saying this type of thing takes self motivation. And there's a reason it's called 'self' motivation. He controls it. Not you. Trust him or don't trust him. But you have to commit to the trust. You have to not assume the worst every time he looks at his phone or is gone a little too long.
I missed this post yesterday... yes, you're absolutely right. The six weeks of limbo in Jan-Feb when he was "deciding" last time was total h3ll on me for that reason, worse than in the fall because by then I *knew* they were in touch and it really bothered me. I felt a low-level anxiety all the time. I assumed the worst every time his phone buzzed. Once they got back in touch and I found out in June, it was the same, and one of the reasons I needed more solidity before agreeing to the trip. I just hate not knowing and wondering all the time.
That being said... I do think I'll trust if he says he isn't in contact with her. I already feel better this week than I did before as he is telling me they aren't in contact any more and he doesn't intend to be in contact with her again... I'm just waiting on him telling her he is blocking her and then actually doing it.
I think the telling her is important, because right now she was the one to block him on WhatsApp and I think it is important that this is his choice too. Also, even if she is a total head case, he can't have told her he'll be there for her if she has suicidal thoughts and then just not respond if she does reach out-- I don't think that is right. I feel like she really, really needs to have someone other than my H to help her if she is truly in a bad place. Relying on him to help her through any of what she is going through is not healthy for any of us involved.
And as I said.. i'm a trusting fool. I trusted last time and I think I'll trust again this time. I do believe we got through all the rest of the lies that one night he decided to unload everything else on me (UGH BECAUSE HE READ HE SHOULD IN SHIRLEY GLASS'S BOOK... IDK why that bothers me so much, that I said over and over I need total transparency and yet he only decides to do it when he reads it for himself) and it feels like the slate is finally clear between us. So with my optimistic mind I am thinking these are the steps we need to make it work this time, alllll the lies are out in the open, nothing still festering, no lingering questions on my part. I think, assuming he blocks her etc as I've asked, that I just need to let go and trust at that point. Otherwise, why bother doing any of this?
So used to being in charge, they come back and feel lost, no-one is deferring to them, or even worse, they come back and get hit with four days worth of problems at once "the dishwasher's broken" or "X did this in school".I understand know how hard that must have been. Throw in unconscious resentment on my part - he gets to go away for four days and leave me at home with two young kids, his job is viewed by everyone as more amazing (god I hated how everyone fawned on him when he told them he was a pilot) even though its my job that pays most of the bills and what you get is him feeling emasculated when he gets in.
I wish I could talk to him about this now. But it is too late. It is not too late for you.
I do think about all of this, sometimes, and how it must have been hard for him. And I know I'll have to revisit this time if we move forward together as in his mind the damage is all still there and not healed over. I feel I didn't see him anymore as a human being but as a container for what I needed from him and focused more on what I wasn't getting than how he was feeling or needed from me as his W. But that all being said... I mean, so the F what that he didn't get fawned over at home? You have a right to some resentment when your partner isn't pulling his weight and you have to keep up everything, work plus family plus house while he's off getting his ego burnished. Not every person takes that set of circumstances and decides to give up on their M and go find someone who kisses their @ss a little more. Your H (and mine) are flawed and stunted people in that they made that choice. It is totally the easy route. And it is not your fault, nor mine, that they didn't have the emotional capacity or fortitude or whatever to deal with what was happening and get over themselves rather than run away.
Cardinal... wow, yes, I think you're so right. And it is what he is actually asking for, a month to relax and have fun together with the kids and travel around exploring our state. I guess that I have been worrying about what went wrong last time and what needs to be different this time. *I* need to have a fun and relaxing time, for me, and maybe that is all I should focus on for now.
Assuming we go. To my knowledge he has not yet done what I've asked. Trying to detach and not worry about it. It happens-- great. We go on this trip and have a long road ahead of us. He doesn't-- less great, tbh (that 50/50 feeling sure is slippery!!! all the child custody talk and my inability to really go there, yet, has scared me away) -- but still, a long road ahead.
Hi may !
Long time and long road I see for you . Go on the trip for you and for the kids . It’s amazing how are husbands are alike . Egos need brushing . Going through some of the same at home here. I actually live on the opposite coast as my name . I am a nurse and in the center of covid everyday since March . Been a ghost to everyone I know outside of work . I have seen things I don’t wish for anyone to see yet my other half has been working from home with little worry . Tells me I don’t show enough appreciation. Just holding my footing here . Not jumping on his roller coaster . Marathon girl .You hang in there . The real May is deep down in there . Strong and confident!
In speaking with the IC today I think I'll add one more to the list of his major flaws: entitlement, lack of empathy, and inability to take responsibility for his own actions. I was talking about this with my good friend today, who knows H well, and telling her these have always been personality traits of his I don't love. in fact, I feel I can trace most of my beefs with him to these three things. She asked-- has there ever been a time where you saw H really take responsibility for something major, something he did wrong, and admit it and work to rectify the situation? This stopped me cold. I couldn't think of a single time. Now I'm still thinking and I'm sure I have some level of confirmation bias going on here, but MAN. It really made me think that I'm barking up the wrong tree to think this man will suddenly sprout wings and come out of this chrysalis a butterfly.
May, this isn't sitting well with me. I don't think of these as simple flaws as much as I do a possible personality disorder. When I read this, my first thought was that he sounds like the most corrupt leader our country has yet to see. #45. And he happens to be an egocentric sociopath. Of course I do not know your H, and I hope he is not Trumpy, but this is concerning to me. In fact I would go as far as to say that the only reason I have been able to reconcile my own M and forgive my H, is because he has been able to take responsibility for his actions, demonstrate empathy and remorse, and because he humbled himself before coming back. Even with his commitment, it has still been the hardest thing I have ever done. There are so many built up triggers and emotions that didn't surface until after I had the safety of believing he was really back in it. It is years of work/processing/understanding/forgiving/changing on both ends. If you truly believe that your H has those character flaws, then I can't understand how you can want him back. He cannot do the work without them. It will not work. .... Maybe it's time to really look at the kind of person he is and is showing you and not the M or family you imagine it could be. It is easier to focus on the details -- did he cut off contact, will it stick this time, should you go on this vacay, etc, etc -- but those are just the little trees in a vast forest! I think it's time to cut your loss and plan a beautiful life without him. You deserve a man that cherishes you for you and all your greatness. In the mean time, you can start to rebuild your own self worth and confidence and nurture your more healthy relationships. I know this isn't what you want to read, but you have spent a very lone time analyzing him and what he will do next, but that is not moving you forward.
Blu
Caligirl!!! So great to hear from you. I have been thinking about you recently and wondering how you are doing. I'm glad you're well. You have been such an inspiration to me in the whole detaching thing, staying off his roller coaster and putting one foot in front of the other. xoxoxo. I was just telling Wayfinder about you, she's in that same place you were where your H wanted back and you weren't sure how to trust it... if you have a sec to check in on her thread you might.
And both you and Blu nurses... I have so much respect for you both and what you're doing while I just sit around and feel sorry for myself because my H is an @ss. There are so many tragedies happening out there and maybe I just need to get some perspective. I am so fortunate in so many ways. I will get through this, regardless of what happens, anyway. I know that to my bones. I just don't WANT certain things to happen.
Blu... so good to hear from you too!! I'm in this weird place where half of me wants to magnify his flaws, focus on the worst of him, and use that as fodder to get me to the next phase of my life without him. The other half wants to see him as a flawed human being who has made mistakes but is capable of change. I have probably been leaning more on the bad parts of him here than the good parts.
He is absolutely nothing like 45 and if the words I'm using here makes it seem that way, then I'm really remiss. I know I do focus there in these pages, because it has been a helpful tool for me in detaching. But if I was to plot out those character flaws on a scale of 0-10, 10 being the worst possible (45), he is probably, honestly, like a five on the entitlement, four on the empathy (he is good at it when it doesn't involve making him feel like he was doing something wrong-- then it is harder for him), seven or eight on the not being able to take responsibility for stuff. This last one is the biggest. He has a really hard time with this-- even little things, like breaking a glass, his first instinct is to yell "MAY!" like I did something wrong. (In the old days, he would have found some reason to blame me or whoever was closest-- glass was put away in the wrong place, etc. Now, actually, he can control that and doesn't do it anymore.)
I talked to the IC about that conversation I had with my friend and my concerns around it. I'm not trying to minimize it-- in fact, I do think that if we split I will lean heavily on these character flaws-- but I also think I was being a bit dramatic when I posted this. I did spend some time and thought of a bunch of situations where he did, in fact, take responsibility and apologize for his behavior and make a concerted effort to change. Not just with me, but with others too-- his family, friends, friends-of-friends, etc. The kids, even. I guess the enormity of this current betrayal is just so great that it made it hard for me to compare to anything else. In the end, I do believe he is a good person and worthy of forgiveness, if we should go that route.
The other thing I have seen change in his words, starting back in May but with a lot more fleshing out and detail now-- is how hard he thinks the work will be in forgiving himself, reconciling his own behavior with his values, forgiving himself for the damage done to me and the potential damage to the children. This sits very heavy with him, as I think it should. I believe he had set up a perfect narrative that worked well for leaving (and would also work well if I boot him to the curb), where our R was unfixable, I didn't really love him anyway, and so he had no choice/ was fortunate enough to find love the second time around.
Whereas-- at least in his head--staying and working on the R means he needs to face all of this. (I believe he should face it regardless of where we end up, but that is what is in his mind.) I think it is a positive sign for his own growth and understanding that he at least realizes the work in front of him and how difficult it will be. I know he's worried he can't do it. Scout said at one point I was stopping him from growth by staying with him. After a lot of thought, I actually believe that by leaving him I'd be enabling his continued fantasy and stopping his potential growth (unless he hit absolute rock bottom). I think the only way he actually does learn and grow from this experience is by making a decision, sticking with it, and doing the hard work that it will entail.
I have to say that the fears I have around D, particularly 50-50 with the children, have magnified dramatically over the past couple of weeks. I talked yesterday with the IC about putting my own fantasy D to bed this past week. I think even while I was pooh-poohing his polygamous fantasy world, I was believing the parts I wanted to believe-- that he'd be OK with the girls sleeping here six out of seven nights a week, supporting me financially, etc etc. As I have been reading through a bunch of other threads where S has already happened and the tide is moving inexorably towards D, I realize that once we move into the "non-team sport" D arena, there is absolutely no way he would give me everything I'm asking for. And it probably also wouldn't be best for the kids either. So I'm back to the "it is worth the shot" to try to work it out with him, assuming he wants that too, because even if the chances are slim the reward is so great compared to the alternatives. And, what's the worst I lose? Time? So what?
I know I deserve the best. And I'm not getting it right now. But I still think that the possibility of M2.0 with my H, who is the only human being who can both be my partner and the father of my children, is worth the shot.
Took a bath and went to bed last night without really talking much to H. Haven't talked much today. Still don't know if he has done what I've asked, assuming no because I feel he would have told me. He's been tactile, hugs and leg touches and hand holding. I am trying soooooo hard not to ask. If we go, we're pushing back the date a couple of days (originally thought Saturday now probably won't be till Monday or Tuesday) so there is that too. I could use moral support in not GAF and not asking what is going on if anyone is around (and thinks that is the right path... I know many of you think I shouldn't even be contemplating this step at all, but that is where I am).
HI May - until he moves past the OW he is not thinking clearly, don't expect him too - he knows what he is doing is wrong and is justifying this within himself. You described him with "entitlement, lack of empathy, and inability to take responsibility for his own actions" that is probably EVERY H that is in the midst of having an affair (and I also would say pre and post). You have alot to lose by giving up on him though...you still love him, otherwise you would not still be involved here, he is the father of your girls, you have history, etc - maybe its because you still see a marriage with him as a possibility and really ... because you still love him.
You know the saying, behind every great man is a great woman, I would dare say this as well... behind every broken woman is a broken man. That is going to be my new tag line, because its so true, especially here on these boards. Do not expect alot from him while with an OW, actually expect nothing - because he will lie, drop breadcrumbs, whatever it takes to keep you on the line, sadly. But I have the belief that you can win him back with a word.
Do the DB, be kind, don't engage in R and absolutely go on this trip with the mentality that you will enjoy it, you will bond with your girls, and ...he will be in contact with OW. Did I tell you that on my trip the OW was trailing us with a girlfriend, same places down the coast? (all later found on her social media - though I didnt know at the time). Just decide now that you will not bring it up or spend any effort/time on arguments (especially about the ow).
I will always encourage you to hold out, and when you feel like you can't - hold out another 2 weeks. Here is the 2x4 I guess: we did not get to this spot because we were awesome wives, so in some way you need to make your changes, and show him in actionable ways so that he can see that you did make changes for the better, that being married to you is a possibility. Engaging in cr@ppy behavior is only going to make the ow look that much better.
I am rooting for you and your marriage! Not to say that it won't take work. I still cry when "new" things come up with him (check my thread, I wont hijack) but be positive - IF you still love him, this is hope. I truly believe that.
Growth is one of those things that just takes time . Unfortunately it’s not overnight and sometimes one grows away from the other . Or you grow together . I do not regret stepping off his crazy roller coaster because honestly sometimes they do need to learn on their own . He looked back often . I think I learned more about myself in the end . I have almost too much patience now . Where he says I’m oblivious to a lot . It’s not I’m oblivious I just don’t invest time into non sense .
The reward can be great. My children are way happier not watching us go to war and having both parents in the home . Overall I’m happier . I just have learned to not sweat the small stuff . The big stuff is what needs more attention . The continuation of your husband and this leech is a big thing . Sweat how you feel about that not a vacation with the kids .
Hi BlueSea,
I hear what you're saying... but... I've been doing this for so long now. He told me about the EA last August, 11 months ago. I had read DB and started implementing some of the strategies (180s, GAL, etc) about 15 months ago, after I got the ILYB. I have changed and he has had plenty of time to see and experience that (and he knows it is true, even as he says he's scared it won't last.)
In the last almost year I've been through all of this, pretend family fun time knowing he might be in contact with her on the DL. We did a staycation actually the weekend before he cut things off with her back in Feb. and it was all I could do to have fun and focus on the children while dealing with my anxiety about whether or not he was actually going to cut it off, etc. Honestly? I'm just really done with that. I don't want to go and keep extending this limbo. He is not going to make this decision on his own without some sort of push. And if this trip is the push he needs... in either direction... so be it. He can rail against me for pushing an ultimatum or being selfish. I don't care. I'm totally at ease with my decision and now it is up to him.
I think it was Alison who said (and I've really held onto it) that you don't get to do the things that happen in a committed M if you aren't, and a family vacation is one of those things. It is continued cake eating, enabling his waffling to the detriment of my own mental health. I'm tired of this. It isn't ok with me. Either he blocks her completely and tells me his intention is to be done for good-- which I think I will be able to trust-- or we don't go. Maybe I'll take them for a week on my own and have a blast just the three of us. We will see.
Thank you, though... I'm rooting for you too... and I am honestly rooting for my own MR as well. I do still love him and I believe him when he says he loves me too. I want to look back at this time as a horrible rough spot that launched us into M2.0. But I can't do that alone. He needs to want it too... and I don't know that he does, at least not enough to make the changes I'm asking. Or, whether he wants to or not, if he is capable of doing it. We will see. Trying to just keep steady.
Hi May!
I love love love the spectrum of advice you receive here and each person has so much great, true and RIGHT advice. But only you know your H and your situation and only you can trust yourself to make the right decision for YOU.
Because I love looking at things from all angles (which can get me in trouble in my own situation, so there’s the warning), I have been thinking about your H and wanted to share this thought, take it or leave it:
What I believe you are wanting H to do (correct me if I’m wrong) is to communicate with OW and break things off for good, tell her he is blocking her/deleting her number and never wants to hear from her again (she’ll have to reach out to someone else when she is feeling depressed/suicidal). But what if he can’t do that? Not from a standpoint of living up to your expectations, but from the standpoint that his last communication with her was 1 or 2 weeks ago and he has a certain level of detachment that further communication will just open up his head/heart to more attachment? What if he is not able to deal with her feelings right now? He may just need to be focusing on his feelings and your feelings and reaching out to her would just be too much?
If he were to delete WhatsApp, would that be enough for you? I know at one point you were concerned about her and her suicidal thoughts, but really?!? I highly doubt that she has NO ONE else in her life she could reach out to if she was truly in crisis. I mean, this woman was planning a trip with her exBF, FFS. She’s not alone in this world.
The tough thing in your sitch is that H didn’t fly off to fairyland and explore the potential of their R, fail and then come home remorseful and begging you back. Which is fortunate on one hand, but unfortunate in that you are not going to get the fairytale return of your H. You’re going to get WF’s return, best case scenario. Where you have to suffer his indecision, witness his mental anguish IRL and wait for his slow slow slow return to your M. Are you OK with that? If so, go on this trip and trust the process (add in your boundaries as needed). If not, boot him to the curb and move on with your mighty life. The choice is yours.
Growth is one of those things that just takes time . Unfortunately it’s not overnight and sometimes one grows away from the other . Or you grow together . I do not regret stepping off his crazy roller coaster because honestly sometimes they do need to learn on their own . He looked back often . I think I learned more about myself in the end . I have almost too much patience now . Where he says I’m oblivious to a lot . It’s not I’m oblivious I just don’t invest time into non sense .
The reward can be great. My children are way happier not watching us go to war and having both parents in the home . Overall I’m happier . I just have learned to not sweat the small stuff . The big stuff is what needs more attention . The continuation of your husband and this leech is a big thing . Sweat how you feel about that not a vacation with the kids
CG-- I'm really glad to hear you're doing well. Patience... always in short supply with me and it is one thing I've been learning through all of this. (And... I keep hearing your voice remembering when he was in this big drama over needing to break it off with her in person back in Feb... you were like that is NONSENSE.)
In terms of sweating the big stuff.. I'm really done with dealing with him and the AP. It's been actually a couple of weeks now that he's said they're out of contact. I'm just waiting for him to commit to being done for good, not just for now; tell her that; and block her/ delete her contact info so that she can't throw bombs anymore. That's what I'm asking for in order to go on this trip with him. If he can't do that... we aren't going. And I think we're done. (Though I'm not quite ready yet to be the one to pull the trigger... I have said and maintain I'm not making that decision for him. I realize that puts me in a weaker position than if I could just say F you, see you in court... but that is a line I can't yet see myself crossing.)
Anyway. Hugs to you, Caligirl... hang in there with the COVID stuff and we are all behind you. xoxo
What I believe you are wanting H to do (correct me if I’m wrong) is to communicate with OW and break things off for good, tell her he is blocking her/deleting her number and never wants to hear from her again (she’ll have to reach out to someone else when she is feeling depressed/suicidal). But what if he can’t do that? Not from a standpoint of living up to your expectations, but from the standpoint that his last communication with her was 1 or 2 weeks ago and he has a certain level of detachment that further communication will just open up his head/heart to more attachment? What if he is not able to deal with her feelings right now? He may just need to be focusing on his feelings and your feelings and reaching out to her would just be too much?
Hi Sage
Yes, this is what I'm asking. And I hear you. I would actually prefer he send an email just informing her what is up. I actually don't care if he just blocked her and didn't say anything... but I know that he won't block her without saying something because of the suicide threat. So, I feel like it is not possible for him to block her without saying something to her, so therefore he needs to say something to her. And in his head, at least the last time we talked about it (Sunday) he didn't think it was right to do this on text or email. I don't know if that is still where he is. Seems to me email would be peachy. But I'm trying trying trying not to dictate this. IC told me yesterday I can't coach H through this. It has to come from him. It will or it won't. Out of my hands.
If he were to delete WhatsApp, would that be enough for you? I know at one point you were concerned about her and her suicidal thoughts, but really?!? I highly doubt that she has NO ONE else in her life she could reach out to if she was truly in crisis. I mean, this woman was planning a trip with her exBF, FFS. She’s not alone in this world.
Agreed. I think she is kind of a headcase and am doubtful that she is really suicidal. IC (who is also H's IC) called her manipulative and attention seeking, and I don't think that came just from what I have told her even though she is technically supposed to be treating us like separate people. This is also a woman who HAD to contact H in May to say she was "moving on forever" which ended up meaning she was going to sleep with someone else (hahahahaha via ZOOM or whatever, this is all so sad and lame) and she felt she was betraying H in her heart to not tell him that first (even though it had been three months since he broke it off with her at that point and he'd been living with and sleeping with his wife that whole time).
And when he did reach out to her via text to check on her because of the protests near her house, her text response was that she had been experiencing a lot of trauma. It is her MO to get him back and it works every time. (The first time he broke it off with her, way before he ever told me of her existence, she reached out after a month or two because she had a tragedy in her life and no-one else to talk to, and they sparked it back up. He has said if that hadn't happened, he thinks it would have been over.)
I basically trust her zero, think she is a nut, am fairly certain he'll get some communication in a month or three that says she's suicidal and has no-one else to talk to. Honestly, writing all this out, it would be better if he didn't tell her he was blocking her so that she would just think he was ignoring her. But I really really don't think he'll do that. And I equally am thinking as I type all this out that I'm signing myself up for more whiplash since she will find a way, I'm sure, to get through to him if she really really wants to.
I mean, what I'm asking of him is tell me your intention is to never be in contact with her again, that you want to work on the MR, and put some technological support in place to ensure as best we can that she can't throw bombs anymore. I'm trying not to be prescriptive in how that happens, but I don't want it to just be "I won't contact her and if she contacts me I'll tell you first" because we tried that before and failed. I want more this time. And I really don't think I'm asking anything extraordinary. He's the one that keeps saying he wants this family trip to be a family and have fun and work on knitting back the fabric of our R, starting with the bonds of the family. OK. I'm willing to do that... but I simply cannot without her out of the picture and some security around that. Not because I want to be a b**ch or punish him. Because I simply can't.
The tough thing in your sitch is that H didn’t fly off to fairyland and explore the potential of their R, fail and then come home remorseful and begging you back. Which is fortunate on one hand, but unfortunate in that you are not going to get the fairytale return of your H. You’re going to get WF’s return, best case scenario. Where you have to suffer his indecision, witness his mental anguish IRL and wait for his slow slow slow return to your M. Are you OK with that? If so, go on this trip and trust the process (add in your boundaries as needed). If not, boot him to the curb and move on with your mighty life. The choice is yours.
Yes... I think I'm stuck here, because i am unwilling to be the one to do the final booting and have committed to doing this the harder way if it makes it easier on the children. And, TBH, reading through threads when the H does actually leave and dealing with the trauma of that... it really does seem traumatic and at a whole new level than the betrayal of the A. If it happens, then it happens and I can deal with that. I just am not able to be the one to do it on my own. So I will have a whole lot of $hit to slog through if we go in this direction. I feel like every choice $ucks. Just one-- working on the MR-- has a possible outcome of M2.0 with the father of my children, so it is worth it to give that choice my all, for now, even if that road is rocky and muddy and really, really rough.
He has a slot reserved with the IC tomorrow, and we'd talked about having it as a joint session to talk about communication. She told me yesterday that if we go on this trip, she's recommending at least two weeks, ideally four weeks, of no IC for both of us during this trip. That we need time to reconnect without the third party IC in the picture either. I think tonight i need to ask him what he wants to do and make sure she told him this too so we are all on the same page.
He was sitting next to me on the couch and what I think was a WhatsApp message was open on his phone. He closed it out and I didn't stare too much but I think it was WhatsApp. It occurred to me that maybe he's doing this via message, or setting up a call, or something. We will see. One of our hotels called today to cancel-- they're closing down, not enough traffic due to COVID. I heard him on the phone and a big part of me thought... this is a sign. A sign to cancel the trip. I didn't say anything, though. An hour later he'd researched and found another hotel and brought it to me to consider. I said OK and bit my lip on the BUT HAVE YOU DONE WHAT I HAVE ASKED??? I think trusting that he will (though I do need proof before we start packing!) is where I need to be right now. I did tell work I was taking some time.