Ok well here is my story. I haven’t read the DB book yet. I ordered it and it will be here this week. Read a few others though. My wife and I are married 12 years been together for 14. We have 2 kids 4.5 and 1.5. Our marriage overall has been good but like any marriage we have had our fair share of ups and downs. My wife had a very rough childhood and relationship with her dad. She got a bunch of counseling and was in a good place for the beginning of our marriage. The first few years where good. Then the economy crashed my wife lost her job and went into a full on tailspin nervous break down. She went down a destructive path. Drinking a bunch and going out with friends a ton eventually leading to a affair. We went to counseling all though it wasn’t a very good experience. It was either me and counselor ganging up on her or the counselor and her ganging up on me. We ended up working through and staying together and things improved. She went through extensive counseling to get back to a good place. This was 2013. We worked it out so she could follow her dreams of her own business and made it happen. There definitely were some struggles after the affair. After the affair our sex drives didn’t exactly jive. It took me a while to get back to that place with her. But we ended up having 2 kids. Things had been good. Not like awesome but not bad. We had good communication with each other or so I thought. More on that in a bit. We were having regular sex, we were living life with small kids.
I had a very physically demanding job up until last year that I hated. So it was hard for me to have much energy when I got home. As a result I didn’t follow through on things I said I would do around the house and didn’t follow through on promises I made. I didn’t prioritize the marriage and my wife as I should of. I’m guilty of putting hobbies before my marriage. Granted I got better with this once the kids were born. None the less I was good at procrastinating on stuff.
This last year we had been doing good. Planning for the future planing a remodel on our house. We even took a vacation the two of us without the kids that was really nice. Over this last year after I switched jobs I really started to take a good look at myself. I didn’t love what I saw. So I started reading some self help books and working on making myself a better person. I started with changing my outlook on life which was kind of negative to positive way of thinking. Started working out regularly. I was always in pretty decent shape. I started to help around the house more. Just keeping the kitchen clean and handling the dishwasher, picking up the kids toys and front room. I also started persuing my wife more. She even asked me about the change. I told her I wanted things to be better and I wanted our marriage to be better. My mistake is we had the conversation over text and I never picked it back up again in person. We had been checking in regularly with each other and just a few weeks prior she said everything was good and that there was nothing to worry about. One of the issues with my job is that sometime is have to work some 80 hour week shifts. While I was working one in July one of my neighbors started persuing my wife and she has since started and been in a relationship with him. Guy is a complete loser. DUI, no license, criminal record, in his 30’s lives with parents. Complete dirt bag. Well my wife has depression, anxiety, self esteem and dad issues especially over her weight after having kids. She is still very pretty just heavier then she was before. I still thought she was beautiful regardless of not loosing the baby weight. She struggled with her body image so when some one gave her a compliment that was the start. So in August I caught her red handed sneaking into the house after being with him. We were regularly having sex at the same time. Infact we had the night before. She admitted everything. Then she said she wasn’t happy and that she loved me but wasn’t in love with me. She followed this a few days later that she wanted a divorce. I told her that I was angry with her over the affair but that I wanted to work on relationship and see if it was salvageable. She said she just wanted out and didn’t want to work on anything. She claims the relationship is over with the other guy but I know it isn’t. All the signs are there hiding the cell phone, lying all the typical stuff. She still won’t admit she is having a hidden a relationship with this guy even though I know she is. She claims there isn’t a relationship At all and that she is seeing no one. The phone rang when I was near it and I wasn’t trying to see it but it was clearly him as a picture of them came up. She also thought she was being clever by using a girls name for him. I told her that I will not be disrespected and that if she continues to carry on she will loose her place in this household. She threatened to take the kids and leave and I told her she can leave no one is stopping her but the kids will stay In their safe home. She then broke down into tears and said please don’t take my kids I have no where to go. So her new thing is she will pretend the relationship doesn’t exist. Thing is in my state I’m kind of stuck and can’t technically throw her out. My lawyer said do not leave at any cost because it will make things bad. So I have to stay and she is still here. It’s been over a month since she said she wanted a divorce. She paid a retainer on a lawyer and tried to convince me to use hers. Not happening. I’ve gotten my own. More so to protect my interests and children. She said she had filed but I have yet to receive paperwork. She had been adamant she wanted out. Periodically she would ask for hug or something since this happened. But that was it. I stayed calm I didn’t beg, plead or cry. I did try to have a rational conversation with her about things. That didn’t go well since there is very little rational thought going on right now. She acts like she is addicted. She has justified and rationalized her ridiculous reasons to no end. Even a few of her friends think she is nuts for wanting to divorce me. I’m not perfect but I’ve always been good to her. Supported her dreams, loving, never raised my voice at her, was faithful, never was abusive. She had started saying things like well our older daughter will go to counseling and be fine. Us splitting up will devastate her. My wife has repeatedly told her mom and dad love each other so much and will always be together to her. Stuff to that nature. She says things like our younger daughter won’t even remember us together. Completely turned her back on her faith which was always strong. Cut out all of our church friends. They are pro marriage and she doesn’t want to hear that. She also has been spending less time with the kids. I feel like a single parent. If you knew her before this other relationship started you wouldn’t even recognize this person. She also makes very little money on her own and says things like once we divorce I’ll have to live in a bad neighborhood. Things to that nature. She isn’t wrong about lack of money in the state we live in a computer dictates how much maintenance would be paid and my lawyer ran the numbers and it’s a few hundred dollars. We had some heated conversations about our relationship because I want to work on things and she refuses. She was always quick to apologize after for hurtful things she has said. One as recent as Friday. I was ready to start doing limited no contact with her starting Monday. We had a busy weekend with the kids and it was going to be tough to do so. Well starting yesterday her behavior took a 180. She has been texting me more, hugging me more, and saying via text she has been thinking about me. I’ve been very consistent and I haven’t really overly responded. She told me she was sobbing about us and our family on Friday. I told her it [censored] and it’s hard but I want to work on it and if she wants to talk I’m here. Left simply at that. She hasn’t talked about the R yet but she has been acting differently towards me. She still seems to be talking to the other guy. I don’t know if the affair fog is starting to lift or what is going on with her. Needless to say it’s been weird the last 2 days.
Things I’ve done to this point.
I’ve been following through on what I said I would do.
I’ve been asking her on regular basis if there is anything I can do to make her day better
I’ve worked on myself a bunch.
Self help books on relationships, love, intimacy, changing outlook on myself. Living in the now.
Exercising(I’ve dropped 20lbs)
Spending more time with the kids.
I’ve been working on the crap I brought to the relationship.
I’ve been talking to a counselor.
Basically I’m checking all the boxes but the intimacy ones since she won’t let me touch her beyond a hug.
Her complaints about our marriage
I didn’t follow through on promises
Didn’t keep my word.
Didn’t have enough sex.
She doesn’t think I can change permanently
Even after the hell she has put me through I want to save this marriage. There is a lot of good about us. The good really does out weigh the bad. Threatening to divorce her at this point is useless because she has convinced herself that is what she wants. I know my place in all of this. I was part of the unhappiness however she is the one who chose to cheat and she can’t put that on me. It’s frustrating when the one you love can’t take the time to see all the good she has right in front of her.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
You're probably right that she's still talking to OM and probably still having an affair. She's trying to pull you back in as Plan B, don't buy into it. She has no intent of working on the M right now. Maybe months down the road she will, but for now she's lost in the fantasy fog of a wayward wife. Don't do anything pursuit-wise. You're kind of sending her mixed signals by being firm with her in some ways but then soft in others (for example- asking her what you can do to make her day better). Don't try to appease her. Read all the links Cadet posted, read the book, and read other threads here. It's a lot of info to absorb but you'll find it very helpful. Good luck and keep posting!
You're probably right that she's still talking to OM and probably still having an affair. She's trying to pull you back in as Plan B, don't buy into it. She has no intent of working on the M right now. Maybe months down the road she will, but for now she's lost in the fantasy fog of a wayward wife. Don't do anything pursuit-wise. You're kind of sending her mixed signals by being firm with her in some ways but then soft in others (for example- asking her what you can do to make her day better). Don't try to appease her. Read all the links Cadet posted, read the book, and read other threads here. It's a lot of info to absorb but you'll find it very helpful. Good luck and keep posting!
THIS^^^^ I scrolled down to post this, but AS beat me to it. Even through affair fog, cheating spouses know what they have to lose. They will try to have their cake and eat it too. You need to be firm that as long as she is engaging with him, then D is the only path forward. If she is willing to end the affair, and agree to full transparency, then maybe the MR can be worked on.
MJ, also wanted to say that you did nothing wrong. Nothing justifies cheating. The list you gave
Her complaints about our marriage
I didn’t follow through on promises
Didn’t keep my word.
Didn’t have enough sex.
She doesn’t think I can change permanently
is ludicrous. They will try to find any excuse to justifiy their actions. Don't fall for it. No one is perfect.
Well currently she wants to get divorced or so she says. She claims she has filed. She knows I don’t want to. So I’m stuck in the middle of her refusal to end it. I’ve ordered the books and I’ll read through the threads above. It is like trying to talk to a crazy person. Her rational is so bad that it makes your head spin. My counselor thinks I should talk to her about the sudden behavior change. Not sure what to do about that. I wish there was a way to get her to end it. But she has to do it on her own.
Affair fog is a powerful force. It develops a fantasy life environment. You can´t reach that place by reasoning.
Give yourself time. Get into all Cadet´s posted. Check forum posts and keep posting.
There´s a long road ahead MJ, start walking.
Welcome to the forum.
The list you gave
Her complaints about our marriage
I didn’t follow through on promises
Didn’t keep my word.
Didn’t have enough sex.
She doesn’t think I can change permanently
is ludicrous. They will try to find any excuse to justifiy their actions.
It really is absurd. This is the best she could come up with? Believe us, she's just trying to justify her behavior. The list could just have easily been "I hate how you always keep your promises, you're never spontaneous. And you want way too much sex, and I'm sick and tired of how you change all the time, I need stability in my life." Once a woman decides to go wayward then she will make the smallest things into seemingly insurmountable obstacles, anything to make you think it's ALL YOUR FAULT. Right now you are in a fog that's causing you to believe all her crapola. Eventually it will clear and you'll realize she was lucky to have you.
Well currently she wants to get divorced or so she says. She claims she has filed. She knows I don’t want to. So I’m stuck in the middle of her refusal to end it.
It's very typical for a WAS to say they want D, but if the LBS can effectively remove pressure they will often just let it sit on the back burner indefinitely. Sometimes they will go ahead and pursuit it, usually because OM is waiting in the wings and they want to pursue their fantasy life (which almost never meets their dreamy expectations). But most of the time they'll just do nothing.
It is like trying to talk to a crazy person. Her rational is so bad that it makes your head spin. My counselor thinks I should talk to her about the sudden behavior change. Not sure what to do about that.
She's not the person you knew. I know it's hard to understand her sudden change, everything she does seems out of character and you are no doubt hoping she'll snap out of it and return to normal. It doesn't happen that way. You've got a long road ahead as does she. You've got to leave her alone, remove all pressure, get out and GAL and let her take whatever journey she's going to take.
Regarding talking to her about it, it will do absolutely no good. Your counselor may not have experience with waywards but a wayward's mindset is that she is right and anyone that tells her otherwise is going to hear about it.
Affair fog is a powerful force. It develops a fantasy life environment. You can´t reach that place by reasoning.
Exactly.
MJ, my W was dead set on Ding. She had her little plan: She was going to get a job, get an apartment and get a D. Of course she wanted the path of least resistance. She wanted to do a quickie, online D. We have a kid so that was completely out of the questions. One of the biggest wake-up calls she got was when I contacted a lawyer. She realized that it wasn't going to be a greased slide she could just ride down.
AS is dead on (listen to him, he is very very wise). Remove all pressure. No pursuit. DO NOT TALK TO HER ABOUT HOW SHE HAS CHANGED. That is fool's gold. If your counselor continues to push that I would serious consider finding another one. People settle for inferior counselors all the time. You don't have to. Shop around until you get a good one. Let them know you want to DB. A good one will research DBing.
Remember, marathon....not a sprint.
Well at this point since she has a retainer for a lawyer I need to do the same. I know we will not be in agreement on anything so I’ll have time on that one.
I do believe that she is starting to be torn about things so she is being nice to keep me around for a back up option. For her it’s been 2 months of affair time. For me it’s been a month since I caught her. Last Thursday I finally cleared and I’m not in that constant pain. As a result I’m thinking pretty clear now. The messed up thing is I’m already the better choice. I have a job, a license, I can support a home, no record. But even so I’ve been bettering myself to the point that I’m the better option. I’ve been addressing her complaints to make sure those are gone as well to. Basically she needs to see that I am the best option for her once the fog lifts. Part of me thinks I’m crazy to be fighting for her like this. I do want to save my marriage.
She refuses to even admit the other relationship is still going on. She tries to say it has ended which it hasn’t. She gets p!ssed when I called her out on it. She was truthful about the timeline when it started. But her thought process is she will continue to deny it’s going on. All the signs are there. She is protective of her phone, she is always texting someone, she takes calls in the other room. I could hear it was a male voice. I’m not stupid. But I don’t have much proof beyond the cell phone bill. I don’t need her to tell me it’s going on to know it's going on. I need her to come around to end it if she wants to save our family.
She has struggled the last few days. She was sobbing about the state our family is in. All I could think about was it’s your doing and you can stop this anytime you want. She is to addicted right now.
The two things that resonate with her is loosing her kids and she is super jealous about me being so it’s anyone else. I have always been faithful. I have had my chances to cheat but that goes against everything I believe. Both those get a reaction out of her. It’s a crazy double standard that she can be with someone else but I can’t be. Not that I want to. She said too that if I ever cheated on her it would be over.
We have 2 kids 4.5 and 1.5.
MJ please make sure your children are taken care of during this whole process. Some WW/WAS can continue to be a parent while in the "Fog" and others completely ignore them for the OM and their own self centered ways. Be a rock for your children and expect to have to take on additional responsibility for them.
You've got a long road ahead as does she.
Read this and accept it. If she was the one who took care of finances make sure it becomes you. Do not try to cheat or hide things but make sure you know about all credit card debt, money being spent, and any investments you may have. My XW went through $25,000 in about a month after first affair and went through the same after her second affair. She also racked up a huge debt on her credit cards. The second time around I immediately went to a lawyer and had all financial stuff taken care of so I wasn't responsible. I am not saying you have to get a divorce but this is a long process and you need to protect yourself and your children.
Basically she needs to see that I am the best option for her once the fog lifts. Part of me thinks I’m crazy to be fighting for her like this. I do want to save my marriage.
As someone that has been through it (though my W wasn't in a PA, she was in a long distance EA complete with nude photo exchanges), as your own post-BD fog lifts, you may decide you don't want to be married to a cheater. After all, she will always be a cheater, even if she never cheats again. You will never be able to look back and say "she never betrayed me, and never stepped out on me". For some, once the fear of being D'd lifts, that is something they can't handle and deal with. So take your time, think clearly about this, and try to get through the initial pain, anguish and sense of loss, before making a final decision. Yes we are all pro-marriage here, but having come through the to the other side I've been able to look back and question if I should have stayed in this MR. That day likely will come for you too.
My wife has been ignoring the kids. She hasn’t been a good parent since this began. I’m basically super dad right now. Birthday parties, meals, putting them to sleep, reading to them. Ive been careful to not talk about this in front of them. It has happened a bit though. I even told my wife we need to continue this later and not with the kids around.
I’m aware of the finances. She isn’t overly spending at this time. If needed I have another checking account she doesn’t know about ready to go. I haven’t used it yet but it’s there in case of emergency. She wanted a quick easy shared lawyer divorce. I have retained my own lawyer and she is very good. My wife found hers online. Or at least that is what she said. Mine was recommended by a friend who is a lawyer who has been practicing for nearly 40 years.
I’m aware it’s a long journey before me. I know have to be strong and not give up. I’m in a much better place now then I was the last few weeks. I’ve accepted the situation and I’ve mourned. I’m still very sad however I’m moving forward with life. I have to for my kids.
The other thought I would like some advice. I basically let her have it when she went and put a retainer on the credit card for a lawyer without telling me. We had some debt from some stuff with her own business. Anyway I’m about to do the same. After reading sandi’s thread. I got the impression I should just go ahead and do it and let her discover it on her own as opposed to doing it and telling I did it.
She is very much in fantasy land right now. So I’m hoping this will be the first of few wake up calls for her. I need to see legally what I’m allowed to do but I’m able i easily move my paycheck into my own account. She still does most of the grocery shopping at this point. But she likes to buy stuff and all the auto deduction is to our joint account. So I need to figure out what to do there. The other wake is I’m not going to refinance our house out of the renovation loan. I’m goi g to go forward. I can afford to keep the house if I choose. She needs to see I’m preparing for life to move on.
Basically she needs to see that I am the best option for her once the fog lifts. Part of me thinks I’m crazy to be fighting for her like this. I do want to save my marriage.
As someone that has been through it (though my W wasn't in a PA, she was in a long distance EA complete with nude photo exchanges), as your own post-BD fog lifts, you may decide you don't want to be married to a cheater. After all, she will always be a cheater, even if she never cheats again. You will never be able to look back and say "she never betrayed me, and never stepped out on me". For some, once the fear of being D'd lifts, that is something they can't handle and deal with. So take your time, think clearly about this, and try to get through the initial pain, anguish and sense of loss, before making a final decision. Yes we are all pro-marriage here, but having come through the to the other side I've been able to look back and question if I should have stayed in this MR. That day likely will come for you too.
^^^^ THIS. I came here just about exactly a year ago after I discovered the 3rd A my EXW had. I was a huge mess and was wanting and willing to do anything and everything to work things out and move forward. I remember Steve among others suggested to me that maybe after 3 times I shouldn't be so quick to want to work things out. At the time, in the back of my mind, I was thinking "how can they say that. I'm here to try to save my M?" Well, I can't tell you how happy I am that it didn't work out the way I initially wanted it to. Maybe you aren't a country music fan, but Garth Brooks' 'Unanswered Prayers' is one I constantly think about.
I'm not saying you should just throw in the towel after 1 A, but I am a true believe that when it happens once, the temptation and the urge for them to do it again will be there. I also wonder if it's easier them, too. It isn't uncharted waters for them anymore.
I live in a small town, so the previous transgressions of my EXW were public knowledge to about everyone in the community. The stress of being out in public and knowing they know was excruciating to say the least. Now, I have none of that. That massive weight has been lifted and it's so refreshing I can't articulate it. I also don't have to look at my W now and have those thoughts and feelings of the betrayal, lies and deceit when I do so. I would like to think I could have forgiven her, as I had the previous 2 times, but even when you forgive, you never forget. I am free of it all now.
Long story short, trust everyone that's been through it on here. The vets always provide you with amazing insight, knowledge and advice. I never thought I would get to this point. In the beginning, I didn't think there was any way I could. But, it happens and it will get so much better no matter the outcome. Trust that and believe that. Hang in there!
So she is still being surprisingly nice. I was much more short answered with her. Basically doing what I need to do. I had a repair I needed to do to the house so I came home and knocked that out. She was very quick to check up on me today as I was late coming home. I had a small car issue. The reason why she was checking up to s she is bit jealous of a comworker or mine who I evidently mentioned more then once. One time a group of us from work went out after work and this comworker was there. I’m guess I mentioned her once in the past. I don’t even remember. Well my wife is incredibly jealous of the thought that another woman may actually talk to me. Yet she has an on going relationship she is hiding poorly I might at. It’s ridiculous.
Also while I was working in the garage next to out kitchen I over heard her talking to him. She told him once she had to go to pay the babysitter. He must not f tried to keep her on the phone because in full on my mom voice she said I have to go pay the babysitter I’ll talk to you later. She has never talked to me like that. Like I was a little kid. I wouldn’t tolerate that. Granted she is treating me like garbage like now she has never talked down to me.
I’ve already put things in motion to move forward and with the renovation plans she opted out of the family at this time and since she can’t afford the house and I can I plan to move forward. I also have my retainer in place for my lawyer. So we shall we if she holds true on serving papers or not. I’ve also been doing limited contact with her only talking about kids and finances.
She has never talked to me like that. Like I was a little kid. I wouldn’t tolerate that. Granted she is treating me like garbage like now she has never talked down to me.
This is a little 2x4 that I wish someone would have shown me during my wife's first affair so take it for what it is.
Are you really trying to say that as she is talking to her bf while married to you that she is somehow disrespecting him in a way you wouldn't tolerate? My goodness man the disrespect she is showing you is millions of times worse than her talking down to OM. She doesn't need to talk down to you because in her eyes you aren't even worth talking down to. It took me a long time to realize how much disrespect I allowed her to show me. I hope you truly realize that she is treating you far worse than garbage and you deserve so much more.
My wife BD'ed me (Aug 21) about a week before I found out about the affair. Before I discovered DB'ing, I did the whole GPS tracking thing, phone records thing and caught her meeting him at his work, and then at a hotel. She claims they are just friends and it's just a total coincidence, has nothing to do with her wanting a divorce. She claims they have done no more than hug. She claims she just laid in the hotel room bed and did nothing. More so got pissed at me that I tracked her.
She kept asking me to move out because she couldn't trust me that I wouldn't track her again, but I told her she needed to move out. She moved to her parents about 2 weeks ago and I've been detaching, GAL'ing, following all of sandi's rules ever since. Should be signing divorce papers sometime in the next few days (that she had prepared and I have reviewed). I'm still hanging onto hope that she will wake up and come around because I have quit smoking weed everyday, quit drinking, gone to counseling every week, taken responsibility for all of the marital issues, have so much more of a positive outlook on life and have 180'ed in so many positive ways. But unfortunately the only time I see her now is Sundays at 1 PM when we exchange our son.
Everyone I talk to tells me to just let go and move on because "she's gone" but I still find myself hanging onto hope. But then again some of the things she said to me after telling me she wanted a divorce still give me nightmares. "I want another baby, but not with you."
I’m saying she has never talked to me like that. It surprised me that early on she sounded frustrated. I know she is disrespecting me on a grand level. But I can’t even get her to admit to me she is having a affair. She just lies and says she isn’t with anyone. I know it’s a complete lie and that she is trying to save face. All she is doing is more damage to our relationship with it.
I frankly have no idea on where to go with that. I feel like I’m a fool sometimes for all the love and support I’ve given her over the years. My hope is some of my actions now will help put a end to the doormat. At the moment I’m stuck because I have to stay in the home and she won’t admit anything. My lawyer was very specific about what I have to do to make sure we are in the best place when it comes to court.
So I read through the detachment thread and a bunch of Sandi’s posts. Tomorrow I start detachment. The not responding to texts will be easier for me. It’s once I’m home that will be tough. My wife still comes up to me and wants to have conversations like things are normal. I have to figure out how to address that. We have 2 kids so I know kid talk is a must. But like for example tonight she asked how bed time went since she wasn’t home. It didn’t go well and I told her about it. She kind of drew the conversation out and was comparing it to last night.
I guess i could use pointers on how to go about doing detachment. One of my wife’s complaints about me was that I neglected her to much. Basically put work and hobbies before especially early in our marriage. So I want to go about this the right way so it is effective. Also she is deep in the A fog right now and is all over the place. While I’m feeling better and not in constant pain anymore. I need to detach for me. I need to be healthy and get my respect and dignity back. So any pointers you guys have I would appreciate!
MJ, is she still sleeping in your bedroom?
She is not, she moved to the other room. The kids have been sleeping with me. She has turned a little cold shoulder to them.
Hi MJ,
It's challenging to detach when living together without seeming cold.
I believe one pillar of detachment is to GAL. While my partner (reconciled) was over this weekend I took time out with my son to read a bedtime story, go out gardening together, and go off on a coffee date to discuss states and capitals. I still struggle with my solo GAL. Our lives should not 100% revolve around our partners.. even if you're on good terms.. but especially if they're behaving badly! Time alone allows us to be more the people they fell in love with and to come back together with interesting stories to share.
Have you read the "Sandi's Rules" thread?
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
I have read sandi’s rules. I usually read them twice a day. They are so great. Everything she has shared has been so helpful and enlightening. I figured detaching under the same roof wasn’t going to be easy. She has a tough day today and I’m sure she is going to come looking for a hug and support. That is going to be rough. I don’t want to come off as cold.
She has a tough day today and I’m sure she is going to come looking for a hug and support. That is going to be rough. I don’t want to come off as cold.
Wow, that's a tricky situation! I've dealt with awkward close limbo but not with cheating.
Some bits would seem obvious. For example, if she talks, you listen and validate at least for a couple minutes--no advice ("you could.."), reassurances ("it'll be okay"), minimizations ("at least"), or invalidation ("try to calm down"). For example, since she fired you as husband and is lying/cheating, you shouldn't be pro-actively trying to comfort her or making grand gestures such as dinner out, cooking a special meal, bear hugging her, rubbing her feet, etc. In-between? Maybe imagine how you'd treat a co-worker you weren't close to who had a tough day? That cuts a balance between being a happy, savvy individual and being a doormat.
I defer to forum members who have experience with cheating.
The last thing you should be doing is consoling her with anything, let alone a hug! If she comes looking for it, turn it down. She might think that's cold but what the hell...she's actively cheating on you right now. Set a boundary. This is a boundary you can enforce.
The last thing you should be doing is consoling her with anything, let alone a hug! If she comes looking for it, turn it down. She might think that's cold but what the hell...she's actively cheating on you right now. Set a boundary. This is a boundary you can enforce.
I agree with this completely. I know its going to be hard. But her behavior and treatment of me these past few weeks has been awful. When she opted out of our family and marriage she basically gave up any of the other things like consoling or anything that a marriage le couple would normally do to comfort and care with each other.
I know she is going to ask why I won’t hug. I want to respond with you opted out of our marriage and are actively in another relationship that’s why.
If she comes looking for it, turn it down... she's actively cheating on you
Would refusing a hug be "passive anger" or "detachment" for you? I'm just curious what stance you're advocating. I recently hugged a semi-stranger who leapt into my arms. Her car had tumbled on a hill and she looked sad. It was more an awkward stiffly standing there hug with a short pat-pat-pat on the back, not a friend's hug, not a family member's bear hug, nor a lover's embrace.
I’m saying she has never talked to me like that. It surprised me that early on she sounded frustrated. I know she is disrespecting me on a grand level. But I can’t even get her to admit to me she is having a affair. She just lies and says she isn’t with anyone. I know it’s a complete lie and that she is trying to save face. All she is doing is more damage to our relationship with it.
MK, if you know she's having an A then why do you need her to admit it so bad? Here's the thing with most WAS's- they think the M is over at BD and that A) they are free to do as they please and B) it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. In her eyes it's not even an affair, it's her moving on. She's done with you and with someone else, a lot of WAS's become so attached to the OP that to them, having sex with their own spouse is the affair! So just let it go, that's part of detachment.
Tomorrow I start detachment.
That gave me a chuckle! Oh man, if only detachment were so easy. It ain't flipping a switch!
The not responding to texts will be easier for me. It’s once I’m home that will be tough.
I really feel that true detachment is not even possible when you're under the same roof. The only example I can think of is TXHubby, but it took him a long period of miserable suffering before he finally got fed up and detached. Most LBS's do everything they can to avoid separation, but detachment doesn't really start until physical separation happens.
My wife still comes up to me and wants to have conversations like things are normal. I have to figure out how to address that. We have 2 kids so I know kid talk is a must. But like for example tonight she asked how bed time went since she wasn’t home. It didn’t go well and I told her about it. She kind of drew the conversation out and was comparing it to last night.
Nothing wrong with coparenting conversations. I've been divorced for years and two of my kids are grown, but XW and I still have plenty of such convos. Michele says in DR that when you have kids together there's no such thing as divorce, her point being that you are forever linked together in some way and will always have some level of interaction.
I guess i could use pointers on how to go about doing detachment. One of my wife’s complaints about me was that I neglected her to much. Basically put work and hobbies before especially early in our marriage. So I want to go about this the right way so it is effective.
A lot of LBS's share that concern, if they were accused of being distant in the M then they are afraid detachment will make things worse. But the thing is, your W doesn't want you to "fix things". She sees it all as "too little too late". So before BD, she wanted more care and attention from you and was starving for it. But now? No, she doesn't want that at all. So don't concern yourself with that.
I need to detach for me. I need to be healthy and get my respect and dignity back.
Exactly right. So let her go. Leave her be. Focus on you and the kids. Get out. GAL. No R talks, no M talk, no pressure, no pursuit. Take a long-term view, if and when she wants to return to the M it's probably 12+ months down the road. So relax and settle in!
I done trying to get her to admit the affair. She has no intention of doing so as of right now. I guess in my previous posts I made it sound like a bigger deal to me then it was.
I figured detachment isn’t like flipping a switch. What I meant by tomorrow I start detachment is that I’m going to start working on doing that. It’s going to be hard as hell. Which is why i’m Asking for any pointers you guys have.
I’m plenty aware of the fact we are always connected because of the kids. I even told so back when she first told me she wanted to divorce.
I haven’t had a relationship or marriage talk with her since last Friday. Since then it has been just about house and kids stuff. She has also asked how my day was a few times this week.
Well the only thing I can’t do is leave the house right now. Lawyer specifically told me if we go to divorce I have to be in the house for the best out comes for custody and separation of assets. Those were the final words before I left the meeting. Do not leave the house and be super dad for the kids. My lawyer is awesome. She has some of the best out comes for husband/father in the area.
If she comes looking for it, turn it down... she's actively cheating on you
Would refusing a hug be "passive anger" or "detachment" for you? I'm just curious what stance you're advocating. I recently hugged a semi-stranger who leapt into my arms. Her car had tumbled on a hill and she looked sad. It was more an awkward stiffly standing there hug with a short pat-pat-pat on the back, not a friend's hug, not a family member's bear hug, nor a lover's embrace.
Refusing it is simply setting a boundary. If the stranger kicked you square in the family jewels would you even think of giving her an awkward, stiff hug? No. That's essentially what MJ's W is doing to him. His W is cake eating. Wanting all the advantages that come with being married (being comforted, etc.) all the while doing as she pleases. Compete and utter disrespect for him shouldn't be rewarded.
I figured detachment isn’t like flipping a switch. What I meant by tomorrow I start detachment is that I’m going to start working on doing that. It’s going to be hard as hell. Which is why i’m Asking for any pointers you guys have.
Yes two pointers. GAL your heart out. Force yourself. Keep doing it. Do it until you actually start enjoying it again. The other pointer is be patient. GAL + time = detachment.
I haven’t had a relationship or marriage talk with her since last Friday.
Since last Friday, so 4 days. Well, that's minuscule but you've got to start somewhere! Strive to do it for 4 weeks, then 4 months. If she initiates an R talk then listen and validate. Don't participate.
Well the only thing I can’t do is leave the house right now. Lawyer specifically told me if we go to divorce I have to be in the house for the best out comes for custody and separation of assets. Those were the final words before I left the meeting. Do not leave the house and be super dad for the kids.
Yes, absolutely! We also advice not to leave the house, not just for legal reasons but also because it's the castle and the LBS should not allow himself to be forced out of the castle or off the throne (sleeping in master bedroom). Sorry if I wasn't clear on that, my point wasn't that the LBS should push for separation. What I meant is that if your W decides to leave or starts talking about S, that is not necessarily a bad thing.
I’m pretty happy with the 4 days for the moment. The hardest thing so far is that she tries to make small talk with me when the kids aren’t around. Like she started to talk to me about how warm the weather is right now. I wasn’t mean and replied yeah it’s pretty hot today and went about the work I was doing. I’m working on kitchen renovation stuff right now. Is that something I should ignore and keep it strictly kids/finances?
I’m in the house. I can afford the house without her. I’m planning to keep the house since she doesn’t want it or so she says. I’m also in the master bedroom.
You don’t want to be rude cold and I think you handled it well in regards to the weather.
So I haven’t said anything to her at all tonight since I got back from my parents. . She smiled at me. I didn’t really gesture back just kind of continued with what I was doing. Let’s see if I can keep this up. Gotta start somewhere.
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times.
She smiled at me. I didn’t really gesture back
Not smiling sounds more cold/upset than cheerful/detached.
Like she started to talk to me about how warm the weather is right now. I wasn’t mean and replied yeah it’s pretty hot today and went about the work I was doing.
This sounds detached.
If the stranger kicked you square in the family jewels would you even think of giving her an awkward, stiff hug? Compete and utter disrespect for him shouldn't be rewarded.
Treating her worse than a stranger sounds like a form of attachment.
His W is cake eating. Wanting all the advantages that come with being married (being comforted, etc.) all the while doing as she pleases.
I guess what's cake eating for each of us depends, then, on what we'd do for a stranger vs. a partner? For a stranger I would return a smile, and if they had a tough day and requested one offer an awkward pat-pat-pat hug. For a partner I'd offer a back rub, make a dinner she enjoys, and take over one of her chores.
Again, I don't have experience with cheating, so please take all this with a grain of salt.
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times.
She smiled at me. I didn’t really gesture back
Not smiling sounds more cold/upset than cheerful/detached.
Like she started to talk to me about how warm the weather is right now. I wasn’t mean and replied yeah it’s pretty hot today and went about the work I was doing.
This sounds detached.
Ok thanks for the pointer little bit of a learning curve. This is new territory for me. I did end up talking to her a little for finding a book for the kids and figuring out kids bed time.
Well that was quick. So I started yesterday really working on disconnecting. I did some things well some things that I need to work on with it. So this morning I put on cologne when I left for work went and gave my wife the kid update and she touched my my hand while I did so. Then about 5 minutes ago I got a I’m thinking of you text. I have not responded. She is testing to see where her control is.
Repeatedly remind me don’t give in.
She is testing to see where her control is.
It's probably not that, when a LBS can effectively DB and remove all pressure then the WAS feels like they don't need to be cold/ rude/ indifferent and often they will warm up a bit. It doesn't mean anything has changed in her mind though.
I’ve been getting a lot of thinking about you texts from her the last few days. Both Saturday and Sunday she sent thinking of you texts.
So she sent me another text a little while ago saying that kids are being fun and silly. So do I respond to that or continue to be silent in response?
The other question if she presses me to know why I am not responding to her texts what should I say?
The rule we normally suggest when it comes to texts is sometimes reply right away, sometimes wait an hour or two, and sometimes don't reply (if it's nothing urgent). The idea you want to portray is you are super busy and don't particularly care to watch your phone like a hawk waiting for her messages. Ultimately you want to GAL and actually be too busy to respond. If she says "why aren't you replying" and an hour later you say "oh I was skydiving" well that sends a message, doesn't it
I'm not saying to lie to her, I'm saying to get busy doing fun stuff.
Unless it is an absolute emergency, you do not "have" to respond to her texts. Take your time in doing so. If you respond back right away, she will know that you are there waiting on her to communicate with you. If she should ask why you haven't responded...just say I've been busy. In one sense, you are...posting here.
She just texted me again saying she is at the library with the girls and asked how I was today. This the most she has texted me in a while asking. I haven’t responded to any of them as of yet.
Hi MJ,
You’re trying to say “I’m focused on me! Oh, did you text?” If you reply instantly to all her texts, you may look like a pursuer. If you never reply, you may look cold and upset. Thread that needle! Good advice to sometimes not reply, sometimes reply quickly, sometimes reply slowly. At some point this will hopefully be a natural consequence of living a full life not centered on her.
So I replied to her about the girls and what they where up to. I didn’t answer the part about how my day was. Is that coming off as cold or detached?
She just sent me another text asking how I’m doing today. I don’t know how exactly to respond to that. I’m feeling pretty ok at the moment. Am I happy with the situation no. But I’m not having a bad day. I feel like with all the garbage she is putting me through that she doesn’t really get to know how I’m doing. I guess I’m looking for a good way to respond while remaining in a detached state.
Ignore it? Vague, general questions ask the listener to use more brainpower than the speaker is willing to. I’d probably offer a stranger “Fine, thanks” in person or a thumbs-up emoji via text. On second thought, I like the thumbs-up emoji!
I agree she no longer has a right to deep, introspective answers.
She followed it up with a what time can we expect you home. I responded with I’m good and the time I’ll be home. She responded really fast too. So I’m just going to stay the course at this point. Detach and GAL.
So I replied to her about the girls and what they where up to. I didn’t answer the part about how my day was. Is that coming off as cold or detached?
A lot of new LBS's are worried about saying or doing the "wrong" thing, and ask questions like this. But don't worry about the small things, it wasn't any one single thing that landed you here and no one thing is going to fix things or crush things.
My XW started out being very cold and indifferent to me and I kept being my normal kind self to her. She finally told me she was doing it because she thought it would make it easier for me to accept things if she was mean to me (gee thanks!) But she said she felt so guilty about it because I was not responding in kind that she wasn't going to do it anymore. And for the most part she didn't, she was quite kind after that and in fact still is to this day.
But don't confuse that for a change of heart, your W is just enjoying a little of the old family life while still planning her escape. Nothing you say or do right now is really going to impact her path that much. So reply, don't reply, that's up to you. But it's not going to matter much for now. Down the road somewhere is possible recon, but it's on the horizon line right now. Work on detaching as much as you can while under the same roof. Get out and GAL.
That’s sound advice. It’s a marathon at this point. Just taking a day at a time. I’m working on GAL now.
So I just got home from work and my wife was being relatively nice and talking about some of the remodeling stuff I was working on yesterday. Then she slipped in do you want to have your mom watch the kids so we can go and talk some place uninterrupted. I responded with we can do that you let me know when you want to.
I’m trying to detach and I really don’t want a to have relationship talk but if she has stuff she wants to tell me I feel like i should hear her out. I’m not to sure what her angle is here with everything. I assume she is still in the fog and with the other guy. If it is a relationship talk how do I handle it. As far I’m concerned as long as the other guy is involved there isn’t a relationship between us.
Could use some advice.
By the way you guys are seriously awesome. I thank you for all the advice and help. I’m so glad to have found this place.
She may want to discuss divorce proceedings. If she wants to talk about your relationship just tell her there is nothing to talk about as long as OM is involved. I would then walk away.
She may want to discuss divorce proceedings. If she wants to talk about your relationship just tell her there is nothing to talk about as long as OM is involved. I would then walk away.
That did cross my mind. I have retained a lawyer since she did the same thing. She may have seen the charge for the retainer on the bank statement. We hadn’t talked about it. It should not be a surprise since I told her I was getting my own lawyer. She tried to play the let’s use one lawyer and make it easy and cheap. I wasn’t about to do that since I have way more to loose from financially and with kids. Now I’m not currently proceeding with filing first. I just need to be prepared if she files. She claimed she is but she hasn’t mentioned it in a while and I haven’t been served with papers. Frankly if she wants to file I’m not going to stop her at this point. But I’m also not going to just roll over bad give her the world either.
As for relationship wise. I don’t know if the other guy is still involved. I stopped trying to follow up. If I’m worried about what she is doing and who she is doing it with then how can I detach. She admitted she had a affair but claims it is over. Which when she made that claim it was 100% not over. I haven’t asked her since I’m not doing anymore R talks if there is OM. I have not talked to her about any R stuff since last week.
You should have your own lawyer but you should try to settle everything in advance and just give to the lawyers to review. Not sure what you mean by more to lose financially because it’s typically a calculation. As far as the kids do not settle for less the 50/50.
50/50 is what we are going for. I make a lot more money then my wife does. That’s what I meant. My lawyer already ran the numbers so I no where i stand for the most part. She hasn’t wanted to talk about splitting things up at all.
Yeah I was just making the point that if it comes to a D to try to agree to everything in advance.
My wife has a rehearsal tonight. As she left I remembered I hadn’t told her my schedule was changing and that I would be on second shift. My shifts change on the frequent side. Anyway I noticed her car hadn’t left. So I went to poke my head out the door to get her attention to tell her the changes. Quick side note complaints my wife had about me were I would forget to tell her important things right away. The other was I never would never move work stuff around. I always just sucked it up worked the shift they needed regardless if I missed something. I never ask for coverage. I noticed she was walking from the neighbors house the one she had/has been having a affair with. I don’t know if it has ended. I’ve stopped trying to figure that out because of where we are at. So I told her the news and didn’t say anything about the neighbors. She texted me like 1 minute later to say she was dropping a letter in the mailbox that was delivered to us. Who knows if it is true. She told me she didn’t tell me right away because she thought I would be upset. I said the only reason I looked out the door was because I didn’t want to forget to tell you about the schedule, Halloween, and conferences. She said she was excited that I could come and was able to get coverage.
I felt like I made a positive 180 here because I made sure to prioritize that stuff and rearrange my work schedule to put the family first.
Why would you be upset about putting a letter in the mailbox?
I think maybe she thought I would think she went over there to have some sort of interaction with him. I don’t know this is how she is some times. Making a big deal about something that has a perfectly good explanation. Thing is I’ve never over reacted to things through the course of our marriage. If anything I’ve under reacted. So I’m not sure where this came from.
Yeah, from my experience WWs will use every excuse UNDER THE SUN for why they do what they do. My W came up with some DOOZIES. She would drop my daughter off at school when I would be home from work or work from home, and then sit in the school parking lot for minutes or hours. SOmetimes she was singing on the online app. Many other times she was interacting with OM on her phone. She always had an excuse. "I was waiting for the drug store to open to pick up my prescription." "I ran to the store to get groceries." Blah blah blah. She never even stopped to consider that I could verify all of that with the GPS app we use as a family. Or that I was accessing her google activity on her PC.
Do I believe that there was a letter? No way.She got caught and came up with an excuse. Remember, BELIEVE nothing they say.
One other thing MJ, as you cement your changes expect her to test them. I remember I 180'd on being controlling with the spending and told her she was in charge of grocery shopping again. She went to buy grocery and dropped almost $400. This was a test to see how I would react. When I didn't even care about how much she spent it went a long way towards proving to her that I was changing.
Look out for tests. Maybe that's what this incident was. Who knows. The WW mind is an illogical thing.
One other thing MJ, as you cement your changes expect her to test them. I remember I 180'd on being controlling with the spending and told her she was in charge of grocery shopping again. She went to buy grocery and dropped almost $400. This was a test to see how I would react. When I didn't even care about how much she spent it went a long way towards proving to her that I was changing.
Look out for tests. Maybe that's what this incident was. Who knows. The WW mind is an illogical thing.
I didn’t even think it could be a test. Before I would of probably accused her of seeing him and gotten upset. But as I’ve been working on letting go I was just like whatever. I’m not able to control what she does. So if that’s what she was doing then that is what she is doing. Yesterday was first real hard core day of ignoring her texts and stuff she was blowing up my phone all morning with thinking of you and how are your day texts. Today she hasn’t texted me once and totally pulled back. Once again that’s fine. I can’t control it plus I have a pretty entertaining job that keeps me busy. I essentially build race cars and make horsepower all day. So it’s very easy to get busy and have some fun. The only down fall are the hours can be crappy at times.
I have zero intentions of text her at all today. I’m going to blind side her today and do some GAL. She is never around it seems to watch the kids in the evening lately. Well I’m going to tell her I need her to watch the kids because I am going out. I have errands to run. But she doesn’t need to know that. Gotta start somewhere. Plus my older daughter has been struggling with how much my wife has been ignoring her since she started the A with the OM.
I have zero intentions of text her at all today. I’m going to blind side her today and do some GAL.
This is a fantastic idea. Look forward to hearing about it tonight!
I’m trying to detach and I really don’t want a to have relationship talk but if she has stuff she wants to tell me I feel like i should hear her out. I’m not to sure what her angle is here with everything. I assume she is still in the fog and with the other guy. If it is a relationship talk how do I handle it. As far I’m concerned as long as the other guy is involved there isn’t a relationship between us.
Could use some advice.
If she wants to pull you aside for an R talk then have it. The rule is to not "initiate" any R talks, but if she initiates then it's OK to listen. As for what you do, it's simple- LISTEN and VALIDATE. Don't agree, disagree, argue, negotiate, anything. She says "it's over and I'm going to file" then you say "well that's not what I want but I will abide by your decision." She says "I am miserable and I can't take this horrible marriage anymore" you say "I can tell you've been struggling, I'm sorry you're going through so much right now." She says "I'm confused and don't know what I want" you say "you sound very frustrated, is that how you feel?" What do all those responses have in common? You're focusing on what she's saying and what her feelings are without injecting your own opinion into it. And you are not blaming her or yourself. You're taking a neutral stance.
If she presses you for some kind of decision such as "I think we need to discuss splitting assets" or whatever, then just tell her "well you've given me a lot to think about, I need to weigh my options and we'll discuss this later."
Remember to be the lighthouse. Be receptive and understanding, but don't be emotional, at least not on the outside. No outbursts such as "how could you let this happen???" or "what about the kids??" Too many LBS's fall into that trap when pulled into an R talk.
I’m trying to detach and I really don’t want a to have relationship talk but if she has stuff she wants to tell me I feel like i should hear her out. I’m not to sure what her angle is here with everything. I assume she is still in the fog and with the other guy. If it is a relationship talk how do I handle it. As far I’m concerned as long as the other guy is involved there isn’t a relationship between us.
Could use some advice.
If she wants to pull you aside for an R talk then have it. The rule is to not "initiate" any R talks, but if she initiates then it's OK to listen. As for what you do, it's simple- LISTEN and VALIDATE. Don't agree, disagree, argue, negotiate, anything. She says "it's over and I'm going to file" then you say "well that's not what I want but I will abide by your decision." She says "I am miserable and I can't take this horrible marriage anymore" you say "I can tell you've been struggling, I'm sorry you're going through so much right now." She says "I'm confused and don't know what I want" you say "you sound very frustrated, is that how you feel?" What do all those responses have in common? You're focusing on what she's saying and what her feelings are without injecting your own opinion into it. And you are not blaming her or yourself. You're taking a neutral stance.
If she presses you for some kind of decision such as "I think we need to discuss splitting assets" or whatever, then just tell her "well you've given me a lot to think about, I need to weigh my options and we'll discuss this later."
Remember to be the lighthouse. Be receptive and understanding, but don't be emotional, at least not on the outside. No outbursts such as "how could you let this happen???" or "what about the kids??" Too many LBS's fall into that trap when pulled into an R talk.
That is great advice and I appreciate all the example responses. That helps understand how to respond. She hasn’t given me a time or day when she wants to talk just that she did. I left the ball in her court on that one. I read the light house yesterday it truly is amazing how it applies and makes complete sense.
She hasn’t given me a time or day when she wants to talk just that she did. I left the ball in her court on that one.
Yes, good idea. Don't be surprised if she never brings it up again, you'd be surprised how often that happens. "We really need to have a talk ASAP", you agree, then crickets. If she doesn't bring it up then don't ask her about it!
I just got this text from my wife a few minutes ago.
If the girls go to bed easily tonight can you and I chat about talking to a counselor together?
So I’m not sure how to go about this. Thoughts?
“Okay” is a fine reply? Maybe wait a couple hours before replying.
I guess you mean how should the conversation about counselors go? Well, you could listen carefully to what she’s proposing (e.g., no counseling, counseling to mediate a divorce, for co-parenting, for the kids, for reconciliation, to decide what she wants, etc.) and how she feels about it. Then, tell her you’ll think about it.
When you have the talk make it clear that if she is suggesting MC that you will not attend as long as she is still in contact with OM. It would be a waste of time and money.
What CW said. Usually when a WAS suggests MC it's because they are hoping to have a "professional" help them to ditch their husband. Because inevitably at some point every MC suggests a "trial separation". Most MC's are not interested in facilitating reconciliation, they are divorce facilitators.
EDIT- agree with LH's comment too. I would also refuse any suggestion of coparenting counseling or whatever, because no matter what she calls it, it's all about trying to paint your M as unsustainable.
Ok, so what kind of counselor should I be looking for if it gets to that point? I assuming someone pro marriage.
I would suggest for now you listen validate and no matter what she says you say “I need to think about it”. Then come here to discuss.
I was the idiot a year ago that didn't take LH's or any of the other vets' advice and thought that "my situation was different" and counseling could help. I did 2 joint sessions with myself, ExW, ExW's IC and my IC. I thought that since my IC was involved and she obviously knew that my wishes at that time were to try to save the M that that made it different and would help. Well, it didn't. At all. And my ExW was still in contact with the OM the entire time. Nothing will get them to see the light or make them come to their senses. As has been advised on here in just about every thread, MC ONLY works if both parties want to save the M. If OM is still in the picture, that makes it crystal clear that she isn't at that stage.
Have the talk tonight and see where she's at. If you even sniff the possibility that she has one foot out the door, then all it will be is a waste of time, effort and money. I promise you.
That makes sense. I was planning to go the listening route and end on I need to think about it and go from there.
I literally have zero expectations but I’m willing to listen.
She isn't home yet. She stopped at the store to get groceries sent me a screen shot showing she was talking to her mom for 38 minutes. Anyway my lawyer called me today to let me know some stuff basically my wife’s lawyer made some mistakes with filing. Turns out my wife lied to her lawyer about me and how much child custody I wanted and left out her Ongoing A. My lawyer filled her in on all the details. My lawyer says we have a very strong case if we decide to go forward. I mentioned to my lawyer that my wife wanted to talk to me about counseling today. My lawyer replied with I think I know why.
MJ,
Just so your aware divorce is not like a criminal case. Assuming you live in a no fault state affairs do not effect the outcome. If she’s already filed I doubt she wants MC. Do not settle for less then 50/50 child custody.
I’m aware that it’s not a criminal case. My lawyer was saying we have a strong case moving forward. I will not settle for less then 50/50. I have been exploring being the primary as well. My lawyer thinks we can get it too. She has done so many times before. As I mentioned before I have no expectations for what she has to say tonight. I’m just going to listen and then tell her you’ve given me a lot to think about response and go from there.
M,
I just want to warn you that lawyers will tell you many things you can get so you fight it out in court and he can take all your money. Figure everything out in advance.
The only thing an A can affect is alimony. Unfortunately. If that wasn’t the case, I’d be primary custodian and receiving child support rather than paying it.
The kids didn’t go to sleep easily last night and we ended up not talking about counseling. I’m not going to ask about it I’ll wait until she brings it up again.
Good plan. I would try to make plans for tonight and make yourself scarce this weekend.
Not a good plan.....it should be THE plan.
MJ, when you aren't with your kids.....you should be out GAL. Join a gym. Take a class. Get involved with a men's group. Volunteer at church. Volunteer for charity. The busier you are the more attractive you will be.
I am joining a gym and I’m looking for a good men’s group now. The problem is she is always finding ways to not be around for the kids. So that has been frustrating.
She just texted me a little while ago wanting to know about talking again today. I haven’t responded yet. It’s probably going to be tough to dodge this conversation this weekend.
Get out and GAL. Be out.
Out!
Get out and GAL. Be out.
Out!
I have plans for both Saturday and Sunday this weekend. Not much going on tonight though. She definitely wants to have this talk about counseling though.
She definitely wants to have this talk about counseling though.
Well, you said "Okay" both Wednesday and Thursday, and she neither made time to tell you her message nor simply texted your her message. You're not the one dodging her message.
She just texted me a little while ago wanting to know about talking again today. I haven’t responded yet. It’s probably going to be tough to dodge this conversation this weekend.
Go ahead and let her talk. As discussed before, listen and validate. If she makes any requests or demands then tell her you need time to think about it and consider your options. DO NOT COMMIT TO ANYTHING. Even if she says "I really want to give things a chance, let's go to MC" then your response should be that you want to think about it. Then come here and let us know and we'll give you advice on the next steps.
You need to be the cool, calm, collected guy. Mr DBer!
She hit me with the conversation the moment I walked in the door. Wasn’t able to avoid it. I’m going to do my best to try and remember everything.
She first asked me if I wanted to go to counseling with her. I responded with well I would like to think about it at this point and weigh my options.
She asked me if I wanted to stay married or get divorced. I told her I was still thinking about that. I wasn’t sure where is I stood on it.
I asked her what she wanted to get out of counseling? She said she wanted to try and figure out where we went wrong and if we could have a loving relationship in the future. She also pressed me as why I need to think about it since this is what I wanted to fix our marriage. I said after having some time I have more clairity on things and I wanted to think everything through to make sure I’m making the best decisions about moving forward.
She did not offer any apologies for the the garbage she put me through with the OM and all the lying and sneaking around. She also did not say if it was over or not with him. I didn’t ask that at this time if it had ended. I also didn’t throw out any ultimatums or anything at this time.
The next part she was p!ssed about. She was p!ssed I retained my own lawyer and put it on the credit card. She threw it in my face that I got upset about how she did the same thing to me and I pointed out that we talk about big purchases. Why I didn’t do that. I had the money to just do the retainer but the lawyer said to put it on the credit card. Because she wouldn’t be able to get it back otherwise.
She was asking how I was going to pay for the lawyer retainer. I said i had it covered and that I can handle paying it. My parents said they would cover the retainer which was nice of them. They didn’t have too do any of that. My lawyer told me to put the retainer on the card. She told me not telling her I did so was passive aggressive.
She was p!ssed about my lawyer calling out her lawyer for filing for D in the wrong county. She said since our marriage license was in the other county we could file in either county. My lawyer specifically said we have to file in the county we live because of things with the kids.
She accused me of changing counties because it will take longer.
She said that it sounded like I was calling her an absentee parent and that she left the children. I never said that, I did say she had not been home a lot lately and that I was here for the kids.
She made some comment about the kids needing a lawyer and that I shouldn’t have 50/50 because of my work schedule. My work schedule is pretty flexible but I have to go there. She said I’m a stay at home parent wouldn’t you rather see your kids everyday if possible. I tired to inform her there are all sorts variations of 50/50 as opposed just 1 week on 1 week off.
She said she will fight for her kids not matter the cost. She also asked who is going to watch the kids while I’m at work. I said if it came down to it my parents said they would help. She said why wouldn’t you want them to be with me. I responded with I never said they wouldn’t. She said your parents would watch them a whole week. I said if it came down to that but that I want her to have time with the kids.
She was manipulating the lawyer thing like crazy. Problem is I don’t have a chance when she gets into that mode. I’m just not built like that and able to twist a conversation. She played me out like the bad guy with everything about the lawyer and the way I handled it.
I wanted to yell your the one who is having an affair you won’t end and refuse to work on the marriage. Your the one who retained a lawyer and filed for D like a week after the BD. Your the one who pushed this whole situation to where it is because you pretended things where fine when they weren’t even when I checked in and asked how things are doing. Your the one walking away from the marriage. I didn’t but it was going through my head.
She said she noticed a bunch of positive changes in me that makes her hopeful. But that I do passive aggressive behavior things like the lawyer and she doesn’t which me is the true one she is getting.
At that I point I was saved by the school bus.
She said she noticed a bunch of positive changes in me that makes her hopeful. But that I do passive aggressive behavior things like the lawyer and she doesn’t which me is the true one she is getting.
At that I point I was saved by the school bus.
Don't buy this last part - you can do nothing right in her eyes.
It´s hard to face MR talks when you need to detach and stay dim. Try to evade future MR instances. Try to read again the Validation post. You need to validate things that should be validated. Nothing more than that.
Keep your pace. Keep DB
Stay strong MJ
MJ,
First off great job on not committing to anything telling her you need to think about it. I’m not buying what she’s selling, it just doesn’t make any sense. She files for D and then wants to go to counseling WTF? I believe she’s trying to manipulate you to get what she wants.
If you decide to go to counseling you should insist on the following:
No contact with OM
A no contact letter sent to OM from her with you Copied on
Full transparency plan with you having access to her cellphone, email etc.
Without these conditions it will be a waste of time and money.
Her manipulation is level insanity. I can barely get through these conversations in one piece.
Hi MJ,
Deep breaths. Strong start, you held firm for awhile not committing to any particular plan of action, then you fell off the bus and began speaking instead of listening / validating.
She hit me with the conversation the moment I walked in the door. Wasn’t able to avoid it.
No reason to avoid hearing her out.
She first asked me if I wanted to go to counseling with her. I responded with well I would like to think about it at this point and weigh my options.
Good reply. Even better, "It sounds like you have feelings about that." She's asked you to have this conversation 2-3x, so it is a safe bet she has feelings on the subject, and it may draw her out.
She asked me if I wanted to stay married or get divorced. I told her I was still thinking about that. I wasn’t sure where is I stood on it.
Okay.
I asked her what she wanted to get out of counseling? She said she wanted to try and figure out where we went wrong and if we could have a loving relationship in the future.
Great question! This is FERTILE ground for repeating back your understanding. E.g., "You want to go to therapy together to help you decide whether or not to recommit to this marriage." Right or wrong, these clarifications put the onus on her to refine what she's saying, providing you valuable information.
She also pressed me as why I need to think about it since this is what I wanted to fix our marriage. I said after having some time I have more clairity on things and I wanted to think everything through to make sure I’m making the best decisions about moving forward.
Great! She's pressuring you, and you're holding strong.
She did not offer any apologies for the the garbage she put me through with the OM and all the lying and sneaking around. She also did not say if it was over or not with him. I didn’t ask that at this time if it had ended. I also didn’t throw out any ultimatums or anything at this time.
Good, neither of you brought up negative topics.
The next part she was p!ssed about. She was p!ssed I retained my own lawyer and put it on the credit card. She threw it in my face that I got upset about how she did the same thing to me
and I pointed out
Oh no! Instead of listening and validating, you got defensive..
She told me not telling her I did so was passive aggressive.
"Wow, I didn't know you felt that way."
She was p!ssed about my lawyer calling out her lawyer for filing for D in the wrong county.
"That really bothered you that our lawyers disagreed."
She said since our marriage license was in the other county we could file in either county.
"I see, you believe we can file in either county."
She accused me of changing counties because it will take longer.
"You think I changed counties to slow down our divorce."
She said that it sounded like I was calling her an absentee parent and that she left the children.
"Wow, you thought I was accusing you of being an absentee parent."
I shouldn’t have 50/50 because of my work schedule. I tired to inform her.. I said if it came down to it my parents said they would help.
I'll stop commenting. It should be obvious you fell off the listen and validate train. You're not even sure you want divorce, and you're not going to "win" reconciliation or a court custody case by arguing / fighting with your wife. If you can't handle a conversation, it's okay to take a ten minute walk to clear your head.
Problem is I don’t have a chance when she gets into that mode.
Nobody wins fights like these, except maybe OM. Listening and validating helps to avoid them.
You didn't yell. You tried to listen and validate. It takes practice to learn all these new skills! Don't be too hard on yourself. Do something relaxing for now, and commit to trying again next time.
MJ,
First off great job on not committing to anything telling her you need to think about it. I’m not buying what she’s selling, it just doesn’t make any sense. She files for D and then wants to go to counseling WTF? I believe she’s trying to manipulate you to get what she wants.
If you decide to go to counseling you should insist on the following:
No contact with OM
A no contact letter sent to OM from her with you Copied on
Full transparency plan with you having access to her cellphone, email etc.
Without these conditions it will be a waste of time and money.
This i agree with completely. She was pushing for a time table on a response I said I would like to think about it this weekend. Do I bring this up to her or do I wait for her to bring it up. She gets p!ssy having to bring things up if I go beyond the time table. What if she says there isn’t a OM? Do I come back with something along the lines or ok i understand it’s over but to move forward I need to be i copied on the message telling him it is over and there will be no communication.
I had hoped to by myself some more time to prep for the conversation to stay on the validation pathway. She really got defensive about anything with the lawyer. It’s really hard when she is coming at me full tilt.
I do want to go to counseling. I’ve found a good pro marriage counselor I want to use. She makes it sound like she is willing to go. A few weeks ago this was a firm no way in hell.
DB is hard. I’ve been reviewing the validation thread. I copied so I can review it regularly so I can learn from it.
If you decide to go to MC just make sure your conditions are met as LH said...otherwise it will be a waste of time.
MJ,
I can’t stress enough that if you do not require the conditions I laid out then this is just a waste of time and may actually work against you.
MJ,
I can’t stress enough that if you do not require the conditions I laid out then this is just a waste of time and may actually work against you.
So how should I go about laying them out?
She denies there even is a relationship. Or do I play it as I know that you said the other relationship is over but I need to be included in some sort of group message where you specifically say do not ever contact me again our relationship is over kind of thing. Just flat out ask for the passwords. How much do I actually check them.
I want to word this correctly so isn’t taken as controlling.
On Sunday.
W I have thought about it and for me to attend counseling I need to know that you are no longer in contact with OM. This would include a no contact letter sent to him with me being copied on it. I will also require you to give me your iPhone and email passwords that I am able to check at anytime to protect myself.
It’s up to you on how often or even if you want to check.
My guess she will balk at this request stating you’re trying to control her. Part of the script.
So what is my response to the hour trying to control me statement.
Those are my boundaries to protect me. Whether you choose to accept them is entirely your choice. I control me. You control you. It has always been that way and it always will.
So what is my response to the hour trying to control me statement.
I found "I control me. You control you." immensely useful when setting my first boundaries. It's especially useful if confronted with comments like, "You're controlling US" or "You're controlling what WE do."
You can always fall back on listening/validation if you're at a loss for words.
Make sure you are 100% behind any boundaries. Boundaries you announce but don't stick too are a mistake.
So what is my response to the hour trying to control me statement.
I found "I control me. You control you." immensely useful when setting my first boundaries. It's especially useful if confronted with comments like, "You're controlling US" or "You're controlling what WE do."
You can always fall back on listening/validation if you're at a loss for words.
Make sure you are 100% behind any boundaries. Boundaries you announce but don't stick too are a mistake.
I think those boundaries are very reasonable for going to counseling.
For the no contact letter. Would that be her text him with me right there or like a group message. Is this something I need a record of?
After sleeping on things and processing. I can look back and realize she was trying to use scare tactics in regards to the kids. She doesn’t want 50/50. She wants primary with a support so she can live her life with out actually having to have a job and do what she wants making me her anytime baby sitter.
Next conversation I’m going to keep my validation concepts going and try to not let her push the conversation. Another one of her favorites is that if she asks me a question and doesn’t like the answer she we keep asking it over and over more angrily trying to get the answer she wants. I’ve always struggled in these conversations.
MB,
You definitely would want a copy of it for your records. If it's in text then take a screenshot.
The best way to treat a bully is to stand up to the bully. You should work on your boundary on the way she talks to you. If she raises her voice and speaks in anger, calmly let her know that she needs to lower her tone and speak to you like an adult or the conversation is over.
Yep. If that´s the case, those are not conversations. Those are impositions. Then set some boundaries and just walk away if she keeps on disrespecting you.
The first thing you must regain is respect.
If she raises her voice and speaks in anger, calmly let her know that she needs to lower her tone and speak to you like an adult or the conversation is over.
Yes, it's okay to walk away, or say "I'm going to step away if you keep yelling at me.". Careful not to fall into the trap of controlling her ("You need to lower your voice.") or invalidating her feelings ("Calm down"). Boundaries are about setting limits on yourself rather than the other person.
Another one of her favorites is that if she asks me a question and doesn’t like the answer she we keep asking it over and over more angrily trying to get the answer she wants.
I wonder what this looks like? If she's repeating her question--did she feel heard and answered? After confirming that, I'd treat future asks as more an expression of her feelings to validate.
Her: Can you watch the kids at 6pm?
You: No. I could watch them from 8pm.
Her: I said, can you watch the kids at 6pm?!
You: You want to know if I can watch both kids at 6pm this afternoon, right?
Her: Yes
You: No. I could watch them from 8pm.
Her: But I asked you, can you watch them at 6pm?!?!
You: You sound upset I can't watch the kids at 6pm.
Her: Yes! I'm mad that--
Since learning to listen and validate, I spend far less time on the defense. E.g., if my daughter were to say "My screentime ended just as my friend came online to play a game." Me(new) would say "It [censored] that your screentime ended just as your friend came online." Me(old) would launch into a defense of limits or better planning. Neither would change the rule. One conversation goes much better.