Hey guys, new to the forum but have been reading threads for the last week. A little background on my situation: Been married to my high school sweet heart for 1 year, together for 7. After high school we broke up for a while and both messed around with other people. Ending up getting back together and have lived together for almost 6 years. We have a 10 month old son.
Lately she has been acting similar to what I would describe as a WW. She handled far more housework and child care than I do which I think really stressed her out, almost as if I was another child. She also is usually far more affectionate and used to love cuddling and hugs. I am the HD in the relationship. And was really neglecting her love language. A few months ago my father passed away. I was pretty devastated and I’m sure my attention to her greatly decreased as well as my helping with the kid and around the house.
So I don’t know if this counts as the BD but this is what happened: A few weeks ago she was leaving for work and I went to give her a kiss which I haven’t been doing much lately. She avoided it which was the first moment I understood something felt really wrong. I texted her about it later and she said something along the lines of: “ I’m just in a weird funk. I feel a big disconnect from you.” When I asked her more about it she said: “ I don’t know what to do about it, we will just have to work through it if we can”.
This was tough for me. I am the one who is always fixing stuff around the house and fixing the cars so I felt like I needed to do something to fix the situation. Maybe 4 days after the text conversation I couldn’t stop thinking about the situation so I brought it up one night in bed.
This is what I consider the BD. We talked for a while about our relationship. She said many things but the main points were: “ you don’t speak my love language. (She has read the book). I am unsure about my future with you. I see you in my long term life but not my short term.” She said she loved me and was still attracted to me. She did not mention divorce or separation and seemed like she was unsure of what to do. She also said she felt like she lost who she was.
After doing some reading I realized what she had said was seemingly like she was thinking about leaving the relationship. That week after the BD she showed the signs of WW. Cold, distant, sleeping basically off the edge of the bed. Squirmed away from my touch. During that week I would kiss her goodbye in the morning and tell her I loved her. She would say it back but some days would tell me to kiss her on he head, not lips.
The week of the BD I made many mistakes before finding DB. I called her one day at lunch and was very upset. Asking do you just want me to move out. She said I don’t know. I asked when she would know and she said she wasn’t sure. A day later I got upset again at home with here. We had another R talk that I initiated. I told her I was really trying to change (I know this is a big no no now) and if she get different. She said she saw that I was trying and that no she didn’t feel different.
The next day (about a week ago) is when I discovered DB. I really started focusing on improving myself and not worrying about changing her. I have put most of the DB rules into practice and have not been pursuing or starting R talks. I have been present but will not start the conversation.
I have been doing many things different such as hair cut, clean shave. Not playing any video games. Getting up early. Being far more involved in child care. Been far more involved in pulling my weight in house work. I bought the 5 live language book and am reading it.
I feel that there have already been some positive changes in the R. For example the week after the BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her she barely spoke to me at all and acted very uncomfortably around me. The past few days I have been DBing she has been far more active in starting conversations and is actually talking to me quite a lot at home. Yesterday I did a lot of DB and even left to run errands without telling her where I was going or when I would be back which I don’t think I have ever done. Last night in bed I said goodnight. She said goodnight I love you. Which she hasn’t said first in maybe a month. Since I have started DBing she has mentioned a few times that I am being weird. She has warmed up to me verbally but is still cold physically.
I don’t believe there is OM. I have gone through her phone in the night time and the hours she is not at home are accounted for.
I’m just confused on what to do. I read in another thread that if I was in affectionate and distant in the R that if I keeping doing that it will be more of the same. I have been trying to compliment her more which is her love language. I have had mixed results. At first she wouldn’t even respond but yesterday I did get a thanks.
Should I keep complimenting her or is that pursuing? How can I detach without it being more of the same that caused the R problems in the first place? Should I ever initiate and I love you? And when will I know that she is ready to reconnect?
Thanks, sorry for the long read.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thanks for all the reascources, I will be sure to check them out.
A current question I have is about touch. A week ago if I tried to touch my W she would recoil or go to the other side of the bed instantly. Last night she was in the middle of the bed instead of the edge. She let me touch/massage her for a few minutes before moving away. Is this an improvement or a sign that I shouldn’t touch at all?
Hey guys, new to the forum but have been reading threads for the last week. A little background on my situation: Been married to my high school sweet heart for 1 year, together for 7. After high school we broke up for a while and both messed around with other people. Ending up getting back together and have lived together for almost 6 years. We have a 10 month old son.
Lately she has been acting similar to what I would describe as a WW. She handled far more housework and child care than I do which I think really stressed her out, almost as if I was another child. She also is usually far more affectionate and used to love cuddling and hugs. I am the HD in the relationship. And was really neglecting her love language. A few months ago my father passed away. I was pretty devastated and I’m sure my attention to her greatly decreased as well as my helping with the kid and around the house.
So I don’t know if this counts as the BD but this is what happened: A few weeks ago she was leaving for work and I went to give her a kiss which I haven’t been doing much lately. She avoided it which was the first moment I understood something felt really wrong. I texted her about it later and she said something along the lines of: “ I’m just in a weird funk. I feel a big disconnect from you.” When I asked her more about it she said: “ I don’t know what to do about it, we will just have to work through it if we can”.
This was tough for me. I am the one who is always fixing stuff around the house and fixing the cars so I felt like I needed to do something to fix the situation. Maybe 4 days after the text conversation I couldn’t stop thinking about the situation so I brought it up one night in bed.
This is what I consider the BD. We talked for a while about our relationship. She said many things but the main points were: “ you don’t speak my love language. (She has read the book). I am unsure about my future with you. I see you in my long term life but not my short term.” She said she loved me and was still attracted to me. She did not mention divorce or separation and seemed like she was unsure of what to do. She also said she felt like she lost who she was.
After doing some reading I realized what she had said was seemingly like she was thinking about leaving the relationship. That week after the BD she showed the signs of WW. Cold, distant, sleeping basically off the edge of the bed. Squirmed away from my touch. During that week I would kiss her goodbye in the morning and tell her I loved her. She would say it back but some days would tell me to kiss her on he head, not lips.
The week of the BD I made many mistakes before finding DB. I called her one day at lunch and was very upset. Asking do you just want me to move out. She said I don’t know. I asked when she would know and she said she wasn’t sure. A day later I got upset again at home with here. We had another R talk that I initiated. I told her I was really trying to change (I know this is a big no no now) and if she get different. She said she saw that I was trying and that no she didn’t feel different.
The next day (about a week ago) is when I discovered DB. I really started focusing on improving myself and not worrying about changing her. I have put most of the DB rules into practice and have not been pursuing or starting R talks. I have been present but will not start the conversation.
I have been doing many things different such as hair cut, clean shave. Not playing any video games. Getting up early. Being far more involved in child care. Been far more involved in pulling my weight in house work. I bought the 5 live language book and am reading it.
I feel that there have already been some positive changes in the R. For example the week after the BD when I was pursuing and pressuring her she barely spoke to me at all and acted very uncomfortably around me. The past few days I have been DBing she has been far more active in starting conversations and is actually talking to me quite a lot at home. Yesterday I did a lot of DB and even left to run errands without telling her where I was going or when I would be back which I don’t think I have ever done. Last night in bed I said goodnight. She said goodnight I love you. Which she hasn’t said first in maybe a month. Since I have started DBing she has mentioned a few times that I am being weird. She has warmed up to me verbally but is still cold physically.
I don’t believe there is OM. I have gone through her phone in the night time and the hours she is not at home are accounted for.
I’m just confused on what to do. I read in another thread that if I was in affectionate and distant in the R that if I keeping doing that it will be more of the same. I have been trying to compliment her more which is her love language. I have had mixed results. At first she wouldn’t even respond but yesterday I did get a thanks.
Should I keep complimenting her or is that pursuing? How can I detach without it being more of the same that caused the R problems in the first place? Should I ever initiate and I love you? And when will I know that she is ready to reconnect?
Thanks, sorry for the long read.
My W's love language is word's of affirmation. When she was wayward, and we were in the throws of our sitch, I would find non-sexual and non-visual compliments to give her. "You always have such keen insight into such things." "I am amazed at how well you handle stressful situations." "Your perspective is always so good when it comes to conflicts between people." I would thank her for some of them. "Thank you for helping me see it with empathy, I wasn't doing that before."
Slow and steady. You can't erase years of not being affectionate and being distant over night. It takes time. Baby steps.
Also, make sure you understand that DBing, and detachment, are not being distant. If you are being distant then you are doing it wrong. Read the detachment thread and understand it.
Sorry you are here, but I am glad you found us in your current sitch. We can help and offer support.
I would start off treating her like a cat. Do not chase cats. Let the cat come to you. Be welcoming. Some place through this process, you might need to treat her like squirrel. Anything "Frighting" will make the squirrel run off. Do not scare the squirrel away. If you do, learn from that and don't do that behavior again.
What women find attractive:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224Change the way she thinks of you:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=46578&Number=1998146#Post1998146Understand her and agree with how she FEELS:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47422&Number=2054770#Post2054770You may have caught this early and get the R back to a point where she wants to invest in it.
We can help guide you through this difficult process.
Thanks for the quick reply’s. Yeah words of affirmation like that seem so foreign to me. Hopefully with practice I can feel more comfortable. I’ve read that a compliment a day is a good rate?
In regards to being distant. I wouldn’t say I have been. I have been present and when she talks to me or asks me something I have been responding in a confident and positive way. We have even had a few good laughs the last couple days. I feel that our verbal communication has really improved since BD but it’s the physical touch that feels off. And I can’t tell if her moving to the center of the bed is her giving consent for me to touch her in a non sexual way?
Thanks!
Thanks for the quick reply’s. Yeah words of affirmation like that seem so foreign to me. Hopefully with practice I can feel more comfortable. I’ve read that a compliment a day is a good rate?
You get 1 point for each genuine compliment. You need lots of points to fill her daily love bucket.
but it’s the physical touch that feels off. And I can’t tell if her moving to the center of the bed is her giving consent for me to touch her in a non sexual way?
No. Let her touch you first. (The cat has to jump on your lap before you can pet it)
day time nonsexual touching should come before touching in bed.
Hey buddy
Sorry you are here, but you are, and lets make sure, you pull through this with dignity, grace and assured, that you, no matter the outcome, can look back at some point in the future with respect for how you chose to conduct yourself in this situation.
So how do you go about doing that? you already have the heavy lifters advising you, and no matter how counterintuitive the advice you get here may sound - I advice you to trust in the proces, because as I usually say: "A lot of people with different backgrounds, from various places around the world come here to find aid, and they all have one thing in common: 95% of the times the narrative of our stories are exactly the same, it is just the people in our stories that are not.
Listen to your wife, validate her and be kind and do not try to fix her - she is not fixable - she is most likely either questioning her life aka "is there more than this - could the grass be greener? - am I missing out?" or she met someone else and you will learn in time, and she just creating a fog to hide her behavior. I can't say wether its A or B, I can just say that let time reveal the truth.
In the meantime, focus on you, because right now she needs her space, and the cat metaphor, Ready2change told you about is great. Let her come, and then listen, but dont try to lure the cat in, thats pursuit behavior and will just push her away.
As hard as it might be, right now she is free renting all your mental space, and you need that space in order to save yourself from an extremely mental taxing situation. So, don't let her - evict her from your head, and use that space to do something good for yourself.
I am rooting for you - I might make all of this sound incredible easy, and I, together with most on this site, lived your situation, so we know its not, and by no means am I trying to come of as arrogant or bashing - I am just trying to keep you from making my mistakes, and the mistakes of so many others that I have talked to on here since I began DB'ing.
(hugs)
So I don’t know if this counts as the BD but this is what happened:
Yes that's consistent with a WAS's behavior.
A few weeks ago she was leaving for work and I went to give her a kiss which I haven’t been doing much lately.
Avoid physical contact. She doesn't want that right now and may even be repulsed by it. It's a very common mistake to try and double down on affection after BD, but that's the worst time to do it. No kissing or physical touch unless she initiates. No "I love you". That's pressure and right now she wants zero pressure.
I am the one who is always fixing stuff around the house and fixing the cars so I felt like I needed to do something to fix the situation.
Yes that's a guy thing, and you've got to let go of that. You fix it by not fixing it. You fix it by giving her time and space and working on yourself.
I told her I was really trying to change (I know this is a big no no now) and if she get different.
Quite right, don't TELL her, SHOW her. And don't expect immediate results. It takes a lot of time.
She said she saw that I was trying and that no she didn’t feel different.
She's being honest. You can't expect her to change her mind in days or even weeks and maybe not even months.
I have been doing many things different such as hair cut, clean shave. Not playing any video games. Getting up early. Being far more involved in child care. Been far more involved in pulling my weight in house work. I bought the 5 live language book and am reading it.
That all sounds great!
I feel that there have already been some positive changes in the R.
Don't misinterpret that though. When you effectively remove all pressure then things do improve, but many LBS's make the mistake of thinking it means everything is better and they initiate a R talk only to get BD'd all over again. HER FEELINGS HAVE NOT CHANGED. They won't for quite some time. It's like turning a cruise ship around, it takes a lot of time and patience.
I have been trying to compliment her more which is her love language. I have had mixed results. At first she wouldn’t even respond but yesterday I did get a thanks.
Like Steve said, try to find non-sexual ways to fill her love languages. If her LL is WoA then when she does mom stuff then compliment her on it, or if she talks about something she did at work then give her praise for it.
And when will I know that she is ready to reconnect?
She'll let you know. But you'll have to let go of her first. That's the hard part.
Great info thanks. So I have been DBing well the last few days without any slip ups. Last night she slept far closer to me in bed and initiated physical contact. Just her leg over mine. I guess that is progress as opposed to her almost falling off the bed?
Also during the R I was guilty of going to hang out with friends without really checking if she minded or needed help with the kid. I was invited to an event by a buddy tonight but am worried that if I go it will seem like more of the same to her. Just leaving her at home to deal with kid/housework. Any advice?
Yeah words of affirmation like that seem so foreign to me. Hopefully with practice I can feel more comfortable. I’ve read that a compliment a day is a good rate?
Have you googled examples of words of affirmation? There's quite a bit online. I envy people who seem so gifted in verbally expressing encouragement and appreciation. I think some men want to compliment their W, but get stuck after, "You look nice". I call that one, the husband compliment.
I think your W gave you enough of a bomb drop to get your attention, which is good. Hopefully, you can turn things around before a third party gets in the picture. You have already started helping out with the child and around the house. Is your W employed or is she a SAHM? One thing I caution H's when they decide to pitch in to help at home, is not to do all the work while she does nothing. Taking care of the little one is big help. Some women like the feeling of teamwork, and actually doing the chore together.
You have been advised to read "Sandi's Rules", which are intended as a guide. Until we know more about your situation, I caution you not to get extreme with these rules. If you have any questions about one them, please feel free to ask.
It sounds as if your W has felt emotionally disconnected to you for a while. Have you detected feelings of resentment from her? If so, do you know what it was about?
The more you can tell us about your W, and about your marital history, the faster we may be able to help.
Great info thanks. So I have been DBing well the last few days without any slip ups. Last night she slept far closer to me in bed and initiated physical contact. Just her leg over mine. I guess that is progress as opposed to her almost falling off the bed?
She'll go back and forth. Sometimes she'll warm up to you, other times will be cold. Don't read anything into it.
Also during the R I was guilty of going to hang out with friends without really checking if she minded or needed help with the kid. I was invited to an event by a buddy tonight but am worried that if I go it will seem like more of the same to her. Just leaving her at home to deal with kid/housework. Any advice?
Sounds like a 180 on that would be to talk to her about it. We do talk a lot about GAL'ing here, but don't just disappear without telling her and expect her to watch your kid. Too many LBS's do that and it just looks like more dick behavior.
Hi Sandi,
I have been using words of affirmation which got a genuine thanks yesterday. Today I wasn’t fully awake and said “those glasses look great on you” which got the response of “ok”.
She works and usually takes the kid to and from daycare. I have noticed that since I started DBing she has been asking me to do things in a way that seems like she is testing me. For example last night I spent the good part of an hour going into our sons room to get him to sleep (just started getting to sleep in his own room). After I got him to sleep she said “here’s the baby monitor, you can get up with him in the middle of the night.” I responded “I just spent a lot of time getting him to sleep, it’s your turn to get him next”. She did not react angrily to this and accepted by putting the baby monitor on her bedside table.
I have read your rules and found them very helpful. Is complimenting a form of pursuit?
Is complimenting a form of pursuit?
I suppose it could feel like pursuit if you were to overkill. If there has been a ripple in the MR and the H suddenly starts pouring on compliments, yes......it can be felt as pursuit. I've seen some cases where the W was rolling her eyes b/c all he did was compliment her physical appearance. After a while, they can sound a little flat or empty.....maybe even a little fake. You have to realize, she's let you know she is not happy with the MR, and although it's great you are working on 180's, just don't over do it with compliments, b/c she'll probably see an ulterior motive behind it. For now, I suggest you limit it to one per day, and gradually build the number. You want to work on how you say it, and change it up.
Words of affirmation is about uplifting that person's spirit. If you hardly ever gave your W praise for anything, and now compliments are flowing out of your mouth, she probably sees it as your way of getting on the good side of her. The talent lies in how you word things, And also, find ways to uplift her that have nothing to do with her physical appearance. Her response to you saying her glasses looked great on her, sounds as if you may be doing similar compliments to the point of them sounding too much alike. Again, I encourage you to google examples of words of affirmation. Women like to hear they look good or something looks good on them. However, there is more to us than just sitting around looking pretty.
So, express how she does certain things very well, brag on her being a good mother, appreciate the great meal she cooks, etc. I think she sees through what you are doing with this 180, so again, just start out a little and let it build.
Is your W a SAHM?
80% of communication is non-verbal. Body language, tone, eye contact are much more important than the words you say....
Thanks for the reply’s,
Sandi, no she is not a SAHM. I have been working on the words of affirmation. I had one yesterday that was along the lines of “ I’m amazed at how well you interact with our son”. She seemed to genuinely appreciate that. It’s been about a week and a half of DBing and things seem to be going well.
I have really focused on listening to her and asking questions instead of just giving a reply. I am continuing my 180s and she seems to be opening up a lot. She is initiating conversations far more often than the week of BD. I believe she has even started pursuing me. She initiated cuddling in bed a few times last night. She told a joke this morning and was very interested if I found it funny.
I am going to stay the course and will not start any R talks. Continue my words of affirmation. Continue my 180s and stay the course. Things do feel as if they are looking up. Granted it hasn’t been that long. Thanks for the advice!
Hey guys quick update,
Things have been up and down the last few days, I have been doing a good job of GAL. My wife has been questioning me a lot lately. For instance I got off work early today. She had work off today and was home with our son. I stopped by the house to change and casually said I was going to lunch and asked if her and my boy would want to come. She said no. I then said okay see you later. Then she started questioning, “ who are you meeting” “ your just going by yourself?” I gave pretty short answers as I read I should.
When I came home she was questioning me again. “Who did you have lunch with?”
Why is she questioning me so much all of a sudden and how should I be responding to these questions? Detail? No detail?
Thanks
Because she is "temp checking" you as they call it around here. She wants to see if you are seeing anyone else, and is testing you to on how you are going to respond to it. She wants to know if she still has you as plan b. Plus the more you socialize, dress nice, take care of yourself, it raises your social and sexual attraction and value. The fact that she was home with your son, and you were going out and having fun may have something to do with it too.
Don't answer or do not give her details. Do your thing. GAL... You can bring her into the fold if she wants to be with you again. R2C is the king of prompts if you are not sure what to say. Check out some of his advice.
R2C is the king of prompts if you are not sure what to say. Check out some of his advice.
OMG..That is too much pressure...lol
As long as there is not OM in the picture, simple honest answers.
As long as there is not OM in the picture, simple honest answers.
Exactly. The rule of thumb is to be honest, but don't offer info freely. So for example:
"I'm going to be out for a few hours."
"Where are you going?"
"I'm going to have dinner with some friends."
"Which friends?"
"It's no one you know."
"Where do you know them from?"
"It's just some people from work."
That should give you the idea. It'll make her wonder what you are up to.
When I came home she was questioning me again. “Who did you have lunch with?”
"No one, it was just me."
Why is she questioning me so much all of a sudden
Because you're being mysterious. Keep it up!
Hey guys,
Been busy DBing since my last post. Ive been on the site reading when I feel hopeless. Been a real roller coaster of emotions lately but I feel as if I’m starting to accept the situation and realizing that no matter what happens I will be okay.
So after reading a lot I decided to talk with my W about some boundaries. Most were small things about how she talks to me but the big one was, that “Iknow we are having problems and that an affair would be a deal breaker for me”. She denied affair of course and I don’t have any evidence that she is having one. After this boundary talk it seemed as if she respected me for saying it. The week of bomb drop she wouldn’t tell me anything about what she is doing but the day after my boundary talk she was very specific about where she was going and doing.
She has still not mentioned D or separation, and there have been no further R talks. There have been a few instances almost daily where she is very friendly and talkative like she was a few months ago before BD. Then she goes back to coldness. I read this can be a sign of good DBing and that the WAW will “try out being nice”?
The physical touch in bed is hit or miss. Some nights she will lay closer and touch me while going to bed, other nights she won’t. I’m not initiating and trying to mirror. I have been trying to use words of affirmation which was one of her complaints during BD. Per advice of the vets on here I haven’t been always complimenting her on looks. For example this morning I said “you are so creative with your outfits”. This initially got an “Ok” from her and then a few moments later she said “that was weird”. Not sure if I should stop saying things like that or if it’s weird because I never used to say things like that? Any advice on her reactions to my words of advice would be appreciated.
After this boundary talk it seemed as if she respected me for saying it.
Boundaries usually do earn you some respect, but you've got to be careful because she may test your boundaries and if she does then you need to be ready to enforce them or she will lose that respect.
There have been a few instances almost daily where she is very friendly and talkative like she was a few months ago before BD. Then she goes back to coldness. I read this can be a sign of good DBing and that the WAW will “try out being nice”?
It's pretty common for them to cycle through a range of emotions just like the LBS. But if you effectively remove all pressure then there may be a lot more "nice" days because she won't feel the need to "mean" you away from herself.
The physical touch in bed is hit or miss. Some nights she will lay closer and touch me while going to bed, other nights she won’t. I’m not initiating and trying to mirror.
Yes that's good, just let her do what she's going to do.
I have been trying to use words of affirmation which was one of her complaints during BD. Per advice of the vets on here I haven’t been always complimenting her on looks. For example this morning I said “you are so creative with your outfits”. This initially got an “Ok” from her and then a few moments later she said “that was weird”. Not sure if I should stop saying things like that or if it’s weird because I never used to say things like that?
Yes she's going to have a strange reaction to it at first because she's not used to it. Just keep doing it. Try not to make it sexual though, complimenting her outfit like that is good. Also her work abilities, parenting skills, etc. Michele says in one of her books that if the WAS is a pain in the neck 95% of the time and great 5% of the time then celebrate the 5%. So look for the 5%, like maybe your W is rocking your son to sleep and you tell her "he is lucky to have such a loving mom", something like that.
Thanks for the advice AnotherStander I will stay the course.
I’ve got another situation regarding validation for you. So last night I was in the kitchen, my W asked me to heat up some left over pasta for my son. I did so. When I brought it to him in the other room I said “careful it’s a little hot”. My W got upset all of a sudden and said something along the lines of “why did you heat it up for that long it’s too hot for him to eat!” She wasn’t yelling but was definitely upset. I responded in a calm voice: “are you really upset over this? Just wait a minute and it will cool down”. I was of course correct and she and the baby had some bites no longer than a minute later.
Looking back at this I wonder should I have validated and agreed? It just seemed like such a ridiculous thing to be bothered about to me. Should I have responded by validating and going to run cool water over the pasta?
The validation is more for her feelings, especially about the relationship.
W:"I don't want to be married anymore"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way" or "I understand you feel that way"
I said “careful it’s a little hot”. My W got upset all of a sudden and said something along the lines of “why did you heat it up for that long it’s too hot for him to eat!” She wasn’t yelling but was definitely upset.
This is a boundary opportunity:
H:"W, when you constantly criticise the way I do things, I feel disrespected. If you continue, I will.....
I said “careful it’s a little hot”. My W got upset all of a sudden and said something along the lines of “why did you heat it up for that long it’s too hot for him to eat!” She wasn’t yelling but was definitely upset.
This is a boundary opportunity:
H:"W, when you constantly criticise the way I do things, I feel disrespected. If you continue, I will.....
I will do what? Walk away from the conversation? What consequences can you implement to preserve your self respect?
Hey guys,
So pretty big development last night. So after W went to bed, I went through her phone. I know I’m not supposed to but I was looking for proof of A, which is a deal breaker for me. While I didn’t specifically find proof of A, I found a bunch of stuff related to divorce and her looking at apartments. One of her google searches was about pawning her wedding ring, which she debated me into buying for months because it was 8Gs, which I bought using my deceased mothers life insurance. So as you can imagine I was pretty pissed.
I started packing a bag. What was going through my mind was that she was gonna hit me with another BD in a few days about moving out or something. She woke up and asked what I was doing. I said leaving. I told her I knew she was planning on divorcing me and mentioned that I thought she was seeing someone. She said “I’m not gonna divorce you but I think we need to be separated for now”. I validated and apologized for not treating her the way she wanted to be treated.
Anyway I ended up leaving and going to a hotel for the night. She texted me shortly after asking if I had gotten a hotel. I said yes. She then brought up me thinking she was seeing someone and asked why I thought that. I replied that it doesn’t even matter. She then said there was no OM involved. But then she started asking what did you see? And are you just making it up that you saw something?
This to me was a red flag. If there was really nothing to see why would she be asking what I saw and if she knew there was nothing then she would know I was making it up. This to me means she is at least talking to someone even if I don’t have proof. I guess it doesn’t matter.
At this point I’m dropping the rope. I am a good looking confident man and haven’t had any trouble dating. This woman is not the woman I married. Why should I want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me or even mention working on the relationship.
If she were to want to reconcile down the road, I may be open to it for our son. I am both sad but more so angry at this point. I would love some advice on how to act now and how to speak with her now regarding our son.
Thanks guys
IMHO, you handled it correctly. Sometimes a W can get into a very bad habit of fussing at her H for the slightest thing. If he allows it to continue, she usually carries it to the next level. Then you have a W who is verbally disrespecting you. I think it is better to call her out at the moment it happens. Just calmly tell her not to speak in that tone of voice, or whatever.
Been meaning to ask you if she lets you give her open mouth kisses. Maybe not goodbye or hello kisses, but when in the bed. When you were having sex, would she avoid open mouth kissing?
Hi Sandi,
If anything I was the one avoiding open mouths kissing. Before things were bad she would complain that I didn’t make out with her anymore, another of my problems along with not being affectionate enough. We would after nights out having some drinks though.
Could you take a look at my above post when you get a chance?
Thanks
Keep all intel to yourself.
Do not reveal how you know. Do not reveal what you know. Just reveal that you do know:
These words may become useful in your future (if you find out about A or OM):
"We both know you are lying. When you are ready to tell me the truth, I will listen."
As far as kid discussions, keep them business like. Treat her like you would a hostess at a restaurant. Friendly, no personal details, just parenting talk. Listen and validate. Set boundaries on how you want to be treated.
Thanks ready,
So this after noon it was my day to pick up our son. I did a 180: I take my son to my W who works in a different classroom (preschool teacher) when I pick him up so she can say hi. Today I just left with my son.
Anyway did a little cleaning at home (another 180). When my W got home I was packing up some clothes in a bag, as I have been staying in a hotel the last few nights. My W initiated a talk, not sure if I would call it an R talk but it went like this:
W: so what is your plan?
Me (positive and cheerful): well I’m just packing some clothes for tonight
W: where are you staying?
Me: I’m not sure yet
W: where did you stay last night
Me: a hotel nearby
W: that sounds like a lot of money, you could just stay on the couch.
Me: well I don’t really feel like sleeping on the couch.
After this I finished packing up and it seemed like she didn’t have anything else to say so I left. I have been thinking though. She said she plans on moving out with her mom next month. I told her I am thinking about staying in our current rented house. These hotels are getting expensive and I am thinking since I may be staying I should just move back into the bed tomorrow night. If she doesn’t like it I can tell her to sleep on the couch. Would this be acceptable?
Thanks again
Yes take the MBR back. She's probably going to be pi$$ed, but who cares. THEY are the ones leaving the M. THEY are the ones who broke you're trust, they are the ones having second thoughts. THEY can sleep on the couch, the guest room, or a hotel, and or move out. They are the ones that want out. So you show them the door. Its not really going to get you anywhere with her, but it will get back your self respect in both of your eyes. Get it? Respect. Why reward bad behavior with them keeping everything and holding all the cards, the control, and the decisions?
W:"Bla bla bla why r u in master bedroom!?!?"
H:"I think it is best I sleep in here"
W"Bla bla bla I don't want you in here with me bla bla bla!!!"
H:"You are free to sleep where you want. I am sleeping here"
W:"Bla bla bla bla!!"
H:"I am sorry you feel that way" or "I understand you feel that way"
Hey,
So yesterday afternoon I received a text from my W asking what my plan was in regards to when her and her mom move out of our rental house. My reply was “might move, might stay.” She then asked if I was going to be sleeping at home that night. I said yes. I imagine she was having a hard time on her own with our son the last few nights. When I can home yesterday the house was a mess.
I then texted her that I was going to pick up our son from school and take him to the park. After I got our son I received a text from her asking if I had picked him up yet. I didn’t reply instantly. 5 minutes later I get a text “ if you have my son you need to respond to me.” I responded a few minutes later “I was driving, yes got him”. I’m trying to keep things somewhat short with her.
Other than that we had basically no communication. It seems she is lately in a mood where she doesn’t want to talk to me at all. Pretty crazy compared to just a month ago. I have tried initiating friendly conversation a few times but it seems like she wants nothing to do with me at the moment.
I did take the MB back without much resistance.
I’m trying to keep PMA and am detaching well. Hard to show it when she won’t talk to me much so I’ve just been GAL when I’m not watching our son. The way things are going this relationship definitely feels over. Any tips on staying the course currently? Thanks
She much more concerned in what her H may have discovered in her text messages, rather than the fact he was leaving to spend the night away from her. Yes, that is a big red flag.
W: so what is your plan?
Me (positive and cheerful): well I’m just packing some clothes for tonight
W: where are you staying?
Me: I’m not sure yet
W: where did you stay last night
Me: a hotel nearby
W: that sounds like a lot of money, you could just stay on the couch.
Me: well I don’t really feel like sleeping on the couch.
This is very typical of the WW. It's about control. She wants to know every move you make. She doesn't want you knowing about her private life, but she wants to know yours. This is when you give vague answers (but don't sound ridiculous).
If an affair is a deal breaker, then don't put up with her sh't. I think LBH's wait too long and put up with too much b.s. before they act on it, thus weakening her view of him as a man. Everything he does should be seen from the point of his self respect.
Hey Sandi,
I don’t have proof. She is planning on moving out in a month. I am not doing her any favors. When I leave to GAL I haven’t even been saying where I am going. What do you recommend me doing to not put up with her sh’t?
Thanks
You have all the proof you needed on how she responded.
Fair enough, so just go dark for now, which I have pretty much been doing, except for child information?
Thanks,
My reply was “might move, might stay.”
"I have not decided." or "I am still making my decision"
Hey guys, just journaling
So. I have been busy GAL. I already was good at GAL but now when im not working or spending time with my son I am almost never at the house. Been playing a ton of hockey and working out 6 days a week. I already did these things before but I am really doubling down to stay out of the house.
Like I said, I took back the MBR. W is still sleeping in the MBR but usually starts out as far on the edge of the bed as she can get. As the night goes on she creeps closer to me and sometimes touches me.
I have been reading a lot of threads and read a lot about As. I believe she is having an EA because of her privacy with her phone and how she reacted when I went through her phone questioning what I had seen. I do not believe she has had a PA. I am sure a PA would be a deal breaker for me. After reading other threads I am not sure if an EA would be a deal breaker.
Looking back at my mistakes I have realized that my main problems were:
Not being affectionate enough
Not speaking her love language
Not listening to her properly
Dismissing her feelings and concerns
Jokingly putting her down (we joked around a lot at each other’s expense and while it doesn’t bother me I am sure she might have taken some of the jokes personally)
Arguing instead of agreeing
I realize now how that all these things can add up and looking back I believe I could have been emotionally neglecting her. For this reason I am thinking that an EA may be justified on her part. It just depends on how deep the EA is, which I do not know. Hopefully I will find out more in the future.
Anyway today she initiated a discussion about how we will split child care when her and her mom move out in a month. It’s the first time in like 3 weeks we had a relaxed conversation. I listened well and validated her thoughts on the matter. We came to an agreement pretty easily. We even joked around a little and had a laugh (also first time in a month).
I have accepted that this M is over and that maybe we will R in the future and maybe not. I think my detaching is going well because I know that either outcome will be okay. I am really trying to focus on bettering myself and fixing those issues I stated above.
I think she has noticed my detachment because she has seemed far calmer and less cold over the past couple days. I guess I will stay the course and hopefully some light will be shed on the possible EA. I am wondering how things will go when she moves out. It really seemed like she had a tough time when I spent a few days away in a hotel. Anyway lots to do today, talk to you later.
Hey guys just journaling again,
Things have been weird the last 2 days. I have been doing an excellent job detaching. I was going out to dinner with some friends the other night and as per GAL I haven’t been informing my W of my plans ahead of time. She blew up at me angrily saying “you just come and go as you please without saying anything to me and it’s pissing me off.” I validated well but as she kept talking to me with anger I told her she can’t talk to me like that and the conversation was over unless she could be calm.
Anyway went out to dinner with the boys and had a good time. As we were about to leave the restaurant a girl came up to me and was like my friend thinks you’re hot, here’s her number. She was good looking and it felt good to get some attention haha. Will hold off on contacting her a while obviously lol.
The W has initiated some talks mainly involving our child care routine once she moves out. It seems like we come to an agreement and then she will text me about it or talk to me about it again. After these talks she keeps asking if there’s anything else I want to talk about which I deny.
She has been way less cold to me the last few days, she has been asking me personal questions and is acting suspicious of who I’m texting. Or going out with. Maybe she finally feels no pressure or something. She asked the other day if I could build a dresser in her new apartment next month. I said no that’s not how separation works. She responded by cuddling me with her leg and saying we are still married though. I didn’t bite, seems to be trying to cake eat.
She initiated R talk last night. She asked me if I was gonna sleep around which I did before we were together. I didn’t confirm or deny but asked her if that was what she would do. She said that she just wanted to go out with friends more. Seems pretty obvious on this talk that she plans on dating others after she moves out so fine, I will do the same? She also said that everyone was recommending counseling to her but that she didn’t want to. I asked why but she responded vaguely “because I don’t want to go to counseling”. So I didn’t push for more.
After the R talk in the middle of the night we had our first sexual interaction in like a month. I think I initiated while half asleep but she went along with it. After, she said “we shouldn’t be doing that” to which I responded “it was just for fun, it didn’t mean anything”.
I’m just really curious about this change in attitude all of a sudden. She was so cold and distant a week ago and now it almost seems like she is pursuing me hard at times?
If she ask about you seeing other people:
"I have not intention of making my life more complicated by getting involved with another woman."
or
"The last thing I need in my life right now is to make it more complicated by getting involved with another woman"
I think you handled things good. If you didn't, might want to use protection going forward. I would also "be different" in bed next time. Surprise her.
Thanks ready,
I will remember that if it comes back up.
Just remembered that when my wife had commented that “we’re still married”,
I responded “it’s pretty much been an in-house separation for the last month”.
She replied, “I’m trying to detach from you”.
Kinda crazy her saying that. Makes me wonder if she is reading something similar to DB.
Hey guys,
So past 4 days or so W has been pretty pleasant. Starting conversations with me and laughing about stuff our Son does. Still DBing well, and feel pretty detached. Feels good. Wondering if she just doesn’t feel pressured anymore.
Around BD whenever I tried to say goodbye as she left for work she wouldn’t acknowledge me. Past few days she has been saying goodbye hope you have a good day, to which I respond with a pleasant you too!
Today the W texted me asking if I had seen a lawyer to which I responded no have you? ( I was actually planning on calling one this afternoon just to protect myself lol). She said no then asked if I had filed for divorce. I replied no have you? To which she replied no.
I know I’m not supposed to try to mind read but what is going through her head. I just wanna say “wtf you are the one leaving me, remember?” I didn’t say that but ended the convo with a gotta go talk to you later. I’m confused as to why she would be thinking I filed for D when we had an R talk two days ago where I made it clear I wasn’t the one leaving the relationship.
Also wondering if she is classified as WW or just WAW. She hasn’t been acting too crazy apart from me suspecting a texting EA of some sort. The extent I have no clue about. Thanks!
Its best to just stop wondering what she is doing and why. You will never figure it out. Cheeseless tunnel. Keep focusing on yourself. Don't fall for those temperature checks.
Usually when they blame you for doing things, its a reflection of their own behavior. If she is supicious of your phone usage, its because she probably hides her phone and is doing something.
WW is if she is cheating. WAW is without the cheating. If you suspect she is cheating, she is probably cheating, EA or PA.
Also, WW/WAW don't want to do the work. She is probably hoping you will file for D so she can blame you for it. I made mine file. She first used D as a threat, then I found out about PA, then she wanted D and I told her that I wouldnt stop her. Took her 8 months to finally go file.
Gotcha thanks,
Just a few questions for today. On the topic of cake eating, where do you draw the line? She has asked me a few things such as building furniture for her in her new apartment which I shut down as it was obvious cake eating. But what about things such as helping her put my son into his car seat in her car? Obviously I want to help with my son but is her asking me to load him in the car cake eating?
Also does anyone have a good thread for temperature check info? I’m a little confused on when she is temp checking me and on how I should reply.
Final thought, she has been getting naked/walking around in underwear in front of me more lately. She did this daily when our R was good. Then stopped around time of BD. And now a month after BD is back to it. Any thoughts?
Cake eating is a lot a gut feeling. Furniture for the new apartment? Yeah, probably cake eating. Helping son into car? No that is being a dad. If you have questions defer your answer or reaction and bring it here for help.
Temp checking is when the walkaway tests whether or not the LBS is still attached. This especially happens when the LBS gets good at detaching. The WAS will start to temp check. "Hey, let's have dinner together tonight." Or walking around in her underwear in front of you to see if has an effect. Temp checking can also be a way to manipulate you. Maybe you not wanting to help with furniture would change if she shakes her butt naked in front of you a little. How do you respond to temp checking? First don't if you don't have to. Ignore the naked and underwear strutting. On the request for dinner "sorry but I have plans tonight."
The problem for the LBS is that because they are looking for any signs of life, they overreact to temp checking as signs the WAS is coming back. Assume all positive signs she shows as temp checking until you are sure otherwise. This all goes into the "Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do."
Well had the longest R talk yet. I have been DBing quite well in my opinion and have removed all pressure and I mean all. Have been getting a life. Haven’t snooped in like 2 weeks (lol I know not that long) and don’t have any urge to snoop because I know it won’t do any good.
Anyway my W came home after work, I was watching my son while cleaning some stuff in the kitchen. (House cleaning a big 180 for me). Wasn’t hoping she would come home to this 180 was just doing it as part of the new me.
W comes into the kitchen and begins small talk about the high temperature today. We talk pleasantly for a few minutes and joke around a little. Next she says that we should talk about our agreement related to child care and child support. We have come to an agreement on who will get our son on what days.
When it came to the child support we had previously decided on $800 a month. $500 for child care and $300 for food, formula, bottles etc. Today I brought up that I am started to pay his health insurance through my work. We discussed this for a few minutes and she agree that I would only pay her $700 because I was paying for his insurance.
I asked her why she was agreeing so easily when she previously wanted $800. She replied that she just wanted us to be able to agree without going to court. She then went on to say that she wants us to get along and do family things in the future? I validated and agreed that I wanted what was best for our son. She then said that she knew she was gonna hate me at some point. I asked her what she meant by this and she said when you get a new girlfriend.
I didn’t ask anything more as it was her R talk and I wanted to see where this was going. She continued to ask me what I was going to do on my first weekend without our son. She then said “I bet your gonna go out drinking and hookup with a bunch of girls”. Someone gave me a great response to questions like this but in the moment I just said I’m not sure. I kinda like keeping her guessing on where my heads at for some reason.
Next she asked me if I would still wear my ring. I responded by asking if she would wear hers. She said probably not. She then asked again if I had seen a lawyer or filed divorce. I said no. She then said that she hasn’t even thought about divorce yet and is just worried about how we will handle our son. She then said something along the lines of maybe we just need a break.
Not sure if she is having doubts or if she is just trying to temp check me. Either way it seems like I am a backup plan right now and I’m not really down with that. I didn’t really respond to her question and just said maybe without emotion. She then went on to say something along the lines of I’m so pretty dont you think I’m pretty? This felt like another temp check so I didn’t really respond.
So yeah that’s where we are at. I’ve been getting temp checked a ton it feels like. From her playing footsy with me, to her waking around naked, pulling up her dress and showing me her underwear and asking if I think she’s pretty. I have done exceptionally well in my responding and have shown no interest.
I read in another thread that WAW won’t leave until they have another branch to jump to. Sure feels as if she is trying to keep me around as a back up with all these temp checks. I know I don’t deserve to be a back up plan and don’t know if I’m even gonna want to take her back. Guess we will see what happens.
Hallzy,
Great job sorting out financials and schedule regarding co-parenting your son. That is just something that needs to happen ASAP, and that will make it way easier for you down the road.
Regarding the R talk. Heres my personal experience and advice.
My ex disregarded me as dirt the second she jumped ship, because there was another ship to board. I suddenly didn't mean anything, and never had - typical logic and whatever.
Heres the deal, whenever she became insecure about wether the new ship was sinking or not, she would reach out and talk about break, R, and possible future plans together. That was going on, because I let it. Because I was weak, and didn't realize, that she was just treading waters, because the OM didn't know what he wanted. It never was about me, and if it ever becomes about me again, then that will be years down the road.
Your wife is screaming the word insecure, and you are, despite everything, her harbour where she finds shelter for the storms. But that is definitely not alright, because she fired you.
Validate her by all means, but do not get drawn into anything, because this is about her own selfish agenda, and not about you. Sorry to be so straight forward.
Detach, lovingly, but detach - and for gods sake, trust nothing she does. The second a new ship enters the horizon, she will sink you.
Halizy9, are you trying to nice her back? I mean you asked her why she agreed to only$700 easily. My question is why did you? I'm off the opinion that the LBS should subtly make it as hard to D them as possible. W: "Let's discuss support?" You: "I think there's an issue the court should decide.'
Most LBHs are afraid if they because they're afraid they'll get screwed. But by agreeing to it without a court involved you are letting her off the hook. I'm not so sure your WAW is temp checking you as much as she's throwing you bikes so you'll go along with all this easily. Essentially letting her take the easy way out. I mean if you want to D then be accommodating. But she's nicing you into an easy peasy D.
Just my two cents. In my sitch I made it clear to my WAW/WW that I had spoken to a lawyer, and that I would not be doing anything to help the D along. I wouldn't try to stop it but the dirty work was hers. I think it made her realize that maybe staying married want so bad.
How's GAL going?
Someone gave me a great response to questions like this
If you remember what is was, please post. It might help someone else.
Next she asked me if I would still wear my ring. I responded by asking if she would wear hers.
I would not respond to questions with questions. I would have responded:"I have not thought about that"
She then went on to say something along the lines of I’m so pretty dont you think I’m pretty?
"I think you are smoking hot. The guys are going to have fun with you." This will make her feel good, and then confuse her.
Hey thanks for the reply’s,
Hurt, at first around BD she seemed unsure, then she seemed to hate me and wouldn’t touch, talk to me anything. Now she is back to being nice, touching me, initiating conversation with me. In regards to another ship, I am suspecting an EA, but have found nothing and am no longer interested in snooping. In response to her saying things like maybe we just need a break and things that sound as if she is trying to keep me around I respond in a pretty uninterested way. I don’t think I have given her any intention that I plan on waiting around as her back up plan besides me saying that I don’t believe in divorce. Yeah thanks for the advice Hurt, I have accepted she is on her own journey and I am okay with either outcome.
Hey Steve, I am not trying to nice her back. I have shut down her attempts at cake eating. I have not fallen for her temp checks. After doing some research I was comfortable with that much support and I don’t really want to drag this out and go to court. I’m kind of at the point where if she were to file I would see it as, why should I want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me.
Other events. Yes she does seem incredibly insecure the last few days. Constantly asking where I am going who I’m talking to, if I’m going to get a new girlfriend, when my new roommate will move in blah blah. I am responding to all this very shortly because the way I see it, it’s not her business if she’s the one leaving.
Also I got another tattoo yesterday(I have many). I didn’t tell her about it and she finally noticed it as I undressed for bed. She was upset that I didn’t tell her about it, which I normally would have ahead of time. I really think she is started to think that I’m not going to stick around as her backup plan. After that she was very touchy in bed and actually initiated cuddling, which we haven’t done in a month. Cuddling was one of the things she really liked and was one of the complaints of BD that I never cuddled her unless I was trying to have s*x. Just an interesting development.
Thanks guys
If you remember what is was, please post. It might help someone else.
I think it was you ready who told me a good response to: Are you going to date other women? I have no intention of complicating my life more with another woman at the moment.
Good Steve, I already was good at GAL but now I am doubling down. Weight lifting 6 days a week for longer periods of time than before. Hockey 3 or 4 times a week. Going out with friends more. In regards to what I’m doing new for GAL: Joined a second hockey team with a bunch of guys I don’t know in hopes of making another group of friends. Started going fishing once a week. Started reading before bed instead of just surfing the internet. Taking my son to outings just him and I more often. Been going out to lunch often and trying different new beers. And doing a bunch of work/improvements around the house. Been trying to have more small talk with strangers.
Hey guys,
Saw a lawyer finally and found out exactly how much my child support/spousal support will be. Haven’t talked with W about it yet. Lately she has been far more interactive with me. Starting conversations and joking around quite a bit. I’m curious if it’s because she no longer feels pressure or if she is pursuing me in the pursue/chase cycle or a combination of the two?
So my sons 1st birthday is in about two months. A few days ago my W and MIL told me they are planning a trip to Disney land for his bday. They told me they wanted me to go which I responded with “I’ll think about it”. I ended up deciding to go because I want to be there for my son.
I’ve been reading a lot of other sitches and what comes up often is where to draw the line on doing things with the separated or ex W as a family. I feel that his birthday and a trip to Disney land is something I wouldn’t want to miss. But if my W were to ask me to go to a swimming lesson with her and my S I was thinking I would say no? I am normally the one to go into the pool with him. When we separate if it’s not my day with him I shouldn’t be helping her out and co parenting? Is this a correct view or is this considered being a bad father.
Obviously I want to be there for my son, but it would kind of seem like cake eating on the part of my W. Am I over thinking this?
She also mentioned the other day wanting to still do things as a family down the road which I don’t really know about. In my opinion she is breaking the family in half by separating from me and maybe she is in fantasy land not realizing that I’m not going to be around to help her with stuff.
H,
I understand your confusion regarding time with son as family, because that was something I my self struggled with immensely.
My advice is really simple:
It comes down to one thing: You. <-- What do I mean by that. It means that, if you can go be with your ex/wife/stbxw or whatever she is and do things with your son as a "family" without having ANY expectations in regards to your situation. If you can do that because, your sole reason for doing it, is that you have an interest in being there for your son, then by all means, attend EVERY chance you have to be with him.
The fact is, that he loves you, and he loves his mom, and its precious for him, to do things with both parents. That is not possible and applicable to all situations, because the relationship between the ex spouses does not make that possible - however if it is, and you are there only for his sake, then go.
Do NOT miss out on his life, because its not cake eating if you drop the rope - then its co-parenting and parenting at its best. Its not about her, its about you and those very very important moments with your son that matters to you. Who cares what she gets out of coming along, that not for you to read into.
Detach - drop the rope - then go spend every minute you can with that little beautiful human being, because before you know it, he is two.... I would know - my son just turned two in january.
Oh I babelled a lot, when I wanted to write a short reply, hopefully you get my point
Do not enable irresponsible behavior. (IE do not be a built in baby sitter so W can GGW)
Hey so the most intense R talk we have had yet just occurred. Before I get into it I want to say thanks hurt. I realize that being a good father should be my number 1 focus. Right so my W got home from work. I was reading in the bedroom, our S sleeping in his crib. I ask her about her day, really listening and validating, seemed like it was a really good conversation. I tell her a bit about my day and go back to reading.
She then says something along the lines of “I want more child custody because I will miss him too much”. I deny saying we had already come to an agreement a few days ago. Support money comes up and I mention I saw a lawyer and know exactly how much I should be paying which was less that what she suggested.
She seemed pissed I saw a lawyer and this kind of erupted into the R talk. She seemed to think I saw the lawyer with D as my intent. I told her I saw the lawyer to know my rights and to better understand custody and support and that I didn’t ask the lawyer about divorce process.
From here she started talking thinking about hypothetical situations in the future and said “so what you start dating a girl and divorce me when it’s convenient for you?” I reinforced that I did not want to get a divorce (this was said many times this R talk lol).
We then transitioned into talking about what had gone wrong. She was very vocal and sounded pretty angry at times which was different because our previous R talks she seemed pretty calm and almost apathetic. Her complaints were: I barely helped her with our son since he was born. (Although she has been more involved, this isn’t true. I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort with our son. I think she is just trying to see the worst in the MR.) A big complaint was the video games. Although most days I used to only play an hour to chat with my buddies, she made it clear that she felt she was coming second in my life and this was very hard for her. She became very upset when talking about this part. She also brought up that now I’m buying new clothes when she’s been trying to get me to do that for a year or two.
I did a poor job at handling my emotions because I spoke to her with frustration. But I validated well and apologized and said that I was being dumb and just shrugged off her opinions as nagging. I said that if I had known that this is where things would end up I would have never played the video game again.
She was still upset and said the typical WAW stuff: I do t care I wanted that stuff a year ago. At the height of her frustration she said something like “I’m done!” Things cooled off after this a little and we talked about rules of our separation. This is what annoyed me. During this part of the R talk she was talking as if this separation was my idea and almost seemed to be placing it on me, even though it is her who wants to separate.
She said that she is looking forward to going out with her friends more. Which she did extremely rarely during our M. I asked her why she didn’t spend time with her friends during our M and that I never controlled her or turned her away from her friends. She didn’t have an answer for this. It’s strange because I have kept up with my friends but the last few years she hasn’t made an effort to see her friends. I feel as if she blames me for this but I am not controlling at all and have no problem with her hanging out with friends.
We next talked about seeing other people during our separation. Once again she shifted blame to me and said how much I was going to be sleeping around. I replied with Readys quote: I don’t have any intention of complicating my life with another woman. I am still focused on making this marriage work. She then said that we should basically be okay with making out with other people but told me no s*x. I don’t really believe this and if it’s going to be that kind of separation fine, I will see other people.
At this point I clarified that I still wanted to make this work and that our son is better off having parents who are together. She responded “well he is screwed then”. This really set me off and I calmly said: “if that’s how you feel you are already completely checked out and we should just file for D.”
This was the turning point of the R talk. It was like she hit the brakes at the word Divorce. She then started saying things like well maybe I will miss you during this S and we can see if it will work. And then spoke of counseling saying maybe she would want to do it down the road. (This is an improvement over a week ago when she had 0 interest in counseling). She then talk about hanging out with our group of friends together which I replied that I thought would be weird. It was strange that at the thought of divorce she seemed to be second guessing herself. I then said it’s fine we both just need time to be on our own and think.
This R talk gave me hope oddly enough. From her angry reaction as opposed to her normal apathetic reaction to R talks it almost seemed as if she cared. Maybe she is seeing all my detachment and 180s and is skeptical that my changes will last. Or maybe I shouldn’t believe anything she says lol. No matter the outcome I will be a better person.
After this R talk there was no tension and we even joked around before she fell asleep. She said something like “don’t try to have s*x with me tonight. I responded that it wouldn’t mean anything. She replied “it does matter. I’m not done random girl. We are married”. Interesting. Thanks to anyone who made it through that wall of text. Your input is appreciated.
Had the same exact convo with W 2 months ago about seperation rules, sex, other people, the alleged controlling, ect... Just ignore all of it. They are projecting. They are trying to control with their ground rules that they don't have any intent on following themselves. They don't know WTH they want. They want you one week, the next week you are chopped liver, the next week you are to blame for all the issues in their lives, they next week they see some change and temp check you. Stay where you are. Parked in neutral. Keep your feet planted. Keep it light and pleasant. Discuss logistics. If it segways into R talks. Listen and validate belriefly but SHUT THE R TALK DOWN IMMEDIATELY!! Do you really want to drive yourself crazy every time your W changes her mind on a weekly basis. Be polite, neutral, but removed from the MR. It's a "he loves me, he loves me not" mentality with them.
The hopeful long game outcome is you stay detached, emotionally consistent, and neutral every time your W goes either way. Your focus is you, not her.
1.) She has to realize after she leaves or after you let her go, that life is better with you. (This could take years.)
2.) You are the more attractive, consistent, emotionally stable, cool, calm and collected option.
3.) She has to pursue you, has to have total motivation and initiative to want it VERY BADLY, and work for you. She's leaving, she's staying? It shouldn't matter to you either way.
1.) She has to realize after she leaves or after you let her go, that life is better with you. (This could take years.)
2.) You are the more attractive, consistent, emotionally stable, cool, calm and collected option.
3.) She has to pursue you, has to have total motivation and initiative to want it VERY BADLY, and work for you. She's leaving, she's staying? It shouldn't matter to you either way.
Thanks IHCLACS, you are right. The last week she has transitioned from logistics to R talks multiple times. Every time it gets my thoughts going. How do you recommend shutting these R talks down?
I will continue DBing. It seems as if she if very uncertain and insecure about her goals at the moment. I will continue to be detached and emotionally consistent. Thanks for the info
This really set me off and I calmly said: “if that’s how you feel you are already completely checked out and we should just file for D.”
This was the turning point of the R talk. It was like she hit the brakes at the word Divorce.
Anyone who reads this, Please see what happened. This is how you DB.
CALMLY stated
Validated how the spouse is feeling.
Agreeing with their POV.
Then you let them know you are OK with D. You are not afraid of it any more. You let them know this is their choice.
Things cooled off after this a little and we talked about rules of our separation.
Like what? No dating; no bringing OP around your child; no adult spend the night with son there; not leaving your child with someone else to keep? You can try to have agreements, but when you are already separated, whatcha gonna do? Unless you have the law to back you up, don't expect her to follow a list of rules. That's the whole idea behind her getting out, so she can do whatever she wants. Have a schedule for who keeps the child when, and have personal boundaries. You can't control her, just as she can't control you. She is going to date, so buy that business of her just wanting to get out with her friends more.
She then started saying things like well maybe I will miss you during this S and we can see if it will work. And then spoke of counseling saying maybe she would want to do it down the road. (This is an improvement over a week ago when she had 0 interest in counseling). She then talk about hanging out with our group of friends together which I replied that I thought would be weird.
She's just throwing you a bone.
I replied with Readys quote: I don’t have any intention of complicating my life with another woman. I am still focused on making this marriage work. She then said that we should basically be okay with making out with other people but told me no s*x.
You are both
full of it. I don't suggest using a quote you don't mean. Can you remain celibate while your W is going out with other men? Do you seriously think you'll stay away from the ladies when some are already giving you their phone number?
How old are you and your W?
Hey Sandi,
Yes we came up with a schedule of who will have our son on what days. And we did discuss the boundary of no random OM or OW around our son but yeah I guess you are right. I can’t control anything she does and I’m not trying to.
Maybe she is Just throwing me a bone but if her goal is to get away from me and D then I don’t understand her change of attitude when I suggested D.
My hopes are that we can work things out for my son. I am hoping for R but expecting D. No I will be involved with other woman because I believe my W will be doing it too. I am not just going to sit around and wait for her to figure things out.
You may be right about using that quote but I wanted her to know that I would prefer to work things out with her rather than date other girls.
We are both 26. Together for 6 married 1. We dated for a year after high school and broke up for 6 months. During that time we both saw other people and partied a lot. She eventually tried to get back with me saying she had made a mistake and wanted to talk. I put this off and ignored her for a month. Eventually we started hanging out again and slowly got back to dating and then moving in together.
I know that things are very different now but the situation almost seems the same as the last time we broke up. I am open to R down the road knowing that during this separation we will see other people. I could not R if I stayed celibate while she was out with other people. I feel pretty detached at this point and while I would love to R someday I feel that I will be fine if we don’t. Thanks for the input Sandi
Maybe she is Just throwing me a bone but if her goal is to get away from me and D then I don’t understand her change of attitude when I suggested D.
The WW does not see her H dumping
her. She is arrogant. She is a controller. She wants her fun, sleeping with other guys, but she wants her H to stay home alone, grieving over the loss of his W. This is what was behind all her questions. And it is why I hammer on the LBH's that they can't go around reassuring her that he will wait until she makes up mind! A
[/quote]WW is not going to be attracted to that type of man? Nobody knows better than a wayward W that she deserves to be kicked to the curb. She has more respect for the man who will dump her, than one who waits in limbo for her return. It is difficult for a man to see his W in this framework, b/c it is so opposite of what he wants to believe about her.
[quote]We are both 26.
(((hugs)))
We dated for a year after high school and broke up for 6 months. During that time we both saw other people and partied a lot. She eventually tried to get back with me saying she had made a mistake and wanted to talk. I put this off and ignored her for a month. Eventually we started hanging out again and slowly got back to dating and then moving in together.
Okay, so what does that tell you about her? What do you think would have happened if you were there telling her any time she was ready to get back together just let you know? She had to see that you weren't so easy to get back the second time around. That is human nature, but it especially true with a wayward W. She needs to work to get the H back. Make sense?
I know things are more serious now, b/c you are M and have a child together. I just want you to consider the human nature side of it.
Thanks Sandi that all makes a lot of sense. I think that I have made it clear to myself that I will not wait around for her but I don’t think I’ve made it clear to her. I should be more direct about that. Although I would consider R in the future, telling her this while she is WW will do no good.
Thanks for clarifying!
Just a little journaling,
Everything going okay, feeling pretty detached and have accepted this current MR is over. Been emotionally stable for the past few weeks. Had to reinforce boundary of W talking to me in angry tone once about a week ago, hasn’t happened since. Feeling respected, strong and confident.
Yesterday when my son would nap, I would leave the house/room and work on projects. After son went to bed I left W in living room and read in my MBR. She came in a bit later and had a few beers with me. She initiated quite a bit of conversation which I replied pretty shortly but pleasantly to.
She said she was going to sleep and started putting her leg over me. I kept moving her leg off me and eventually moved further from her in the bed. She then started cuddling me. One thing led to another and we did some s*xual stuff. Not s*x though.
Some may say she was temp checking or whatever but I was in the mood for it so I don’t care, the way I see it I got something I wanted. After s*xual stuff she said “we shouldn’t be doing this anymore”.
I replied “it’s just for fun, no strings attached. Don’t over think it”.
She replied that “we are married it does mean something.” (She has said this a few times lately not sure why lol).
I replied “yeah but only for a few more weeks”.
Not as direct of a message as I wanted but I think I got the idea across that as far as I’m concerned, once she leaves this MR is over.
Been noticing a lot of pursuit from her lately. Think I’m doing well not reacting. Then again I’m not doing things to see how she reacts so it doesn’t even matter. After the first few weeks of BD I was an emotional mess. Feeing really good now that I have detached a bit. Feels like a huge weight has been lifted off my chest. More later, thanks.
1.) She has to realize after she leaves or after you let her go, that life is better with you. (This could take years.)
2.) You are the more attractive, consistent, emotionally stable, cool, calm and collected option.
3.) She has to pursue you, has to have total motivation and initiative to want it VERY BADLY, and work for you. She's leaving, she's staying? It shouldn't matter to you either way.
Thanks IHCLACS, you are right. The last week she has transitioned from logistics to R talks multiple times. Every time it gets my thoughts going. How do you recommend shutting these R talks down?
I will continue DBing. It seems as if she if very uncertain and insecure about her goals at the moment.
They are mostly insecure about their goals because they follow their feelings and intuition torwards change, but fear the logistics, steps, commitment and hard work to maintain true freedom and independence. They want it, but they fear the struggle. Im willing to bet if you have a convo with them about it just for the hell of it. Not to obtain brownie points or anything, cause she's done with you. But pay attention how much they want to talk with you when they are having a hard time figure their life out. Pay attention to how much it's all about them. Im willing to bet even the best of well intention WAS won't even ask you about how you are doing, what you are planning, what your goals are, etc.or take an interest in you.
Maybe others could advise here a better way to shut R talks down. Me? I just plainly tell the W I'm not having that discusion anymore if it comes up again. I don't think it will though. But if you want to handle it with a little more confidence and finess? As soon as she brings it up, let her say her piece, then you reply "I appreciate you telling me the way you feel, but I would have to think about that." No timeline, no reassurances, no direct answers. They have you and the marriage in limbo, its their decision to stay or go which they can't make up their minds on..so...keep it there, leave it there, and walk away.
Think about it from a woman's perspective. What do they value the most? Time, value, and the quality of it.. Why? Because of their biology. They test unconsciously for their protector, their lover, their provider. They speak in subtleties. Guys have to read between the lines. They make decisions on emotions. Some call it intuition. Although it can guide people in the right direction in life. I noticed something the other day in convo with W. All the changes she has intuition and feelings to make, she's insecure if she will succeed. What does that tell you? All dreams, all motivational pep talk, no action, no plans, no logistics. They don't trust their own intuition.
So its like this. At one point in time you attracted W because of the way you made her feel about you, and about herself, at some point that changed, yoh no longer fit into her expectations, future, or picture. So? She thinks she can find it somewhere else or with someone else. Her feelings changed. They can be changed again. That's what makes feelings fickle. Listen to your feelings. But don't ever put them above your principles, values, morals and honor. Feelings are good, but are fleeting and subject to change. There is so much more to choosing love, marriage, shared life, etc. Finances, sex, affection, love language, trust, honor, personality fit, value, teamwork, treatment, reciprocity, goals, direction, communications, future, etc. Make it a good choice for you. Let feelings guide you, But don't let it be your guide in life.
.
Thanks IHCLACS,
That makes a lot of sense trying to understand the process. I think to shut down the R talk next time I will say something like, “ we have already discussed this and if you have nothing new to say I don’t want to talk about it.”
Just gonna do a little journaling with a question at the end:
Not much going on since my last post. Last few nights W has been initiating cuddling. She has been friendly. She has asked “what’s wrong” multiple times. Probably because of DB behavior.
I came across some old pictures of us at a country concert having a great time. I know I’m doing well at detaching but I had a moment of sadness. It’s just crazy to me that after going through so much with a person good and bad, that they can just be done with you like the flick of a switch. I know I messed up on a lot of things through out the MR, but damn I think I did a lot of things right too. Anyone moving on from the pity party.
So a few days after BD was our 1 year marriage anniversary (7 years) together. I had not found DB at that time so I wrote a really thoughtful card to her. That card ended up untouched for a week and then on the floor behind a table. I left it there.
I came home yesterday and the wife had cleaned up my MBR. She had put the card in the bed with what looked like other bits of garbage. I ended up tearing it up and putting it in the garbage. This morning she saw it. After I loaded my son in her car I was walking back to the house. She rolled down her window and asked for a hug. Which she hasn’t done since before BD. As I approached she said “it made me really sad that you threw away the card. I was going to keep it. I replied “well you left it untouched on the floor for a month so I figured it was trash.” I hugged her and she said something about me touching her fat to which I complimented her that she wasn’t fat at all.
Other than that she has been showering with the door open again. As of BD she began showering with the door closed.I had suspected EA through the phone but had no hard evidence. I kinda wonder if she told the possible OM to stop contact until she moves out in 3 weeks. Or maybe there is no OM who knows.
I know Sandi suspected she was a WW but I feel that she’s a more typical WAW. She hasn’t been going out partying and drinking. She continues to be a great mother to our son and spends a lot of time with him. She has even really opened up to me since BD. Her mom said to me the other day that before my W decided to move out she told her mom that she wanted to make sure I had a plan before they moved out. From what I’ve heard most WW don’t give a damn about the LBS so this was interesting.
Things seem to be improving but in the end she is still planning on moving out. We’ll see what happened down the road.
Was it wrong of me to tear up the card? I spoke very calmly about it and didn’t show any anger over the situation. Just figures the wife who was leaving me had no interested in the love card.
Thanks everyone
Hey guys, I just wanted to do a little documentation on what has changed since I started DBing.
BD: 3/26/19
W decided to separate: 4/4/19
Started DBing: roughly 4/6/19
How my W acted around BD:
Cold and distant, barely saying 4 sentences to me per day.
Started showering/bathing with door closed. (Always open before)
No affection.
Said I love you only if I said first.
Avoided kissing on lips.
Slept basically falling off the edge of bed.
If I touched her, she would recoil and move away.
If I touched her in bed she would recoil almost off the edge of bed.
Said wasn’t interested in doing s*xual stuff.
Acted very differently to the person she was before.
Did not initiate R talks.
Expressed 0 interest in counseling
After almost a month of DBing well. In the past week my W has:
Acted very friendly. Initiated conversation many times per day.
Has joked around with me.
Has been flirtatious.
Finds reasons to talk to me (usually about our son)
Been incredibly insecure about where I am going, who I have been texting.
Has found reasons to touch me non s*xually.
Initiated s*xual interactions twice. (Still no s*x though)
Has showered/bathed with door open again the last 5 nights.
Has initiated touching/cudding in bed last 5 nights.
No longer sleeps practically off edge of bed.
Has initiated massaging each other twice.
Has expressed sadness with my detachment twice.
Has initiated 3 R talks.
Has expressed possible interest in counseling.
Has talked about future plans together
Has been walking around naked/in underwear in front of me. (Wasn’t around BD.)
I’m not trying to read into her actions. I know a lot of this could be temp checks. I just wanted to show how my 180s, detachment and GAL have affected her behavior towards me. I find it very interesting.
Side note. During week after BD I wasn’t eating and couldn’t sleep. After detaching I am eating well and sleeping well, have even gained some pounds of muscle after a long plateau. My W has had trouble eating and sleeping since BD. She has been having stomach problems since BD and even went to the Dr. yesterday. Shows how detachment can be so helpful and positive because I have been feeling great lately. Seems like her insecurities and uncertainties about the future are really stressing her out. Without DBing I would probably be doing just as bad. So thankful I found this forum and thankful for all the advice.
Hallzy,
Just fyi the typical WAW is a WW. 99% of the situations here involve infidelity. I've not read your whole sitch yet either but there are positives. Just dont get expectations that those will mean something.
Quick update (i say quick but we’ll see how she goes lol)
Yesterday when W got home from work I told her, “after I give our S a bath and get him to bed I’m going out”. She asked a few questions about it to which I responded truthfully but brief. “Going out with some new guys on my team” “you don’t know them”.
Anyway had a great night out with the boys, did some drinking and sports watching at this awesome local sports bar. Wasn’t concerned with thoughts about my sitch. When I got home I was hit with more questioning from the W. “What did you drink” “were there girls with you” blah blah blah. Again I answered shortly.
W tried to touch me with her leg in bed to which I recoiled from. Usually I’m receptive to when she initiates cuddling or touch but I kinda wanted to be less open to her pursuit. Not sure if that is an advisable thing to do? Or should I be reciprocating her same level?
This morning W snapped at me twice. Once was about how I didn’t listen. Earlier she mentioned that she might be getting a cold. I replied “that’s not good”.
A few minutes later the convo went:
W: what are the symptoms of allergies?
Me: Answered her question then said why are you asking?
W: I already told you I think I’m getting a cold. GOD you never listen to me.
Me: I did hear you say that you were getting a cold earlier but you were asking about allergies.
Tried to defend my self while validating. She just seemed to be looking for a reason to be upset. She did something similar a few minutes later. Also, she changed from her night wear to her work clothes out in the hallway where the washer/dryer is. She stood in her revealing underwear for a minute before walking away from me toward our room. I was checking her out lol. As she turned the corner to our room she looked back directly at me in the living room.
I’m pretty sure she was checking to see if I was looking at her butt, which I was. But damn I wish I hadn’t been haha. Felt like a total temp check or her wanting attention. Oh well I guess it’s not a big deal. I guess still in this damn limbo lol, some days I have trouble gauging how responsive I should be to her. I know I’m supposed to treat her like the grocery store clerk. Should I cuddle the clerk if she initiates? Hahaha advice is appreciated.
She's testing you for self respect. Sexually and picking fights testing for you're emotional stability. IMO. You ate Definately doing something right. Keep doing what you are doing. Do not stop until full Reconciliation is back on the table. You know she is manipulating you by giving you a sneakie preview out of the shower, I'm glad for your post cuz it reminded me of what mine is doing as well, here and there on occaision. Keep it steady. Make her work even harder for you. You are not overly interested, but you are not distant either. Which is good
Not sure if that is an advisable thing to do? Or should I be reciprocating her same level?
Just do what you feel like. If you don't want to be touched then don't allow it.
I was checking her out lol. As she turned the corner to our room she looked back directly at me in the living room.
Don't get sucked in. Find important stuff to do. Give it a glance and move on.
Hey guys,
Not much new. I have been doing a ton of work around the house: cleaning up the backyard, wall mounted a new tv in the MBR, started hanging up decorations that my W told me I couldn’t when we moved in here. I got a hat rack yesterday and hung it up.
Last night W came into MBR and saw the hat rack. She got annoyed/upset and said “oh so now you are organized”. She has said similar things lately after a lot of my 180s. Like she is getting annoyed that now I am changing and doing things that she may have wanted a year ago. I didn’t respond because I thought it may start an argument and I was reading. Is it typical for WAWs to be annoyed with 180s? Maybe she thought I bought that just to impress her? Or she is annoyed that I’m changing now when in her mind the R is over?
A minute or two after that comment. She got into bed next to me and was complaining about how she cut her toe open earlier. She was being friendly and we talked about it for a minute. Was strange that she went from annoyed to starting a friendly chat a minute later.
I know she is noticing my changes. When I picked up our son yesterday I was dressed pretty nicely, wearing cologne and my hair looked good. She made a comment about how nice my shirt was and where it was from. Some of the changes and 180s she reacts to with anger/annoyance. Can anyone explain this? It seems like she is mad that I’m changing when she has already decided to get out of the R. Is that pretty typical?
Also what are some signs of respect? I feel like she still has respect for me. I believe she is deep undercover if she is indeed having an EA. I think she is deep undercover because she knew if I found out she would be kicked to the curb and I wouldn’t deal with her sh*t. That kind of feels like respect in a way? Also the amount of attitude and back talking she has done to me has greatly decreased. Pre BD she constantly had attitude and in the month of DBing I can count on 1 hand the amount of times she has talked to me in a way I find unacceptable.
Thanks
she constantly had attitude and in the month
OMG...at first I thought that said "Attitude in the mouth"...LOL
Is it typical for WAWs to be annoyed with 180s?
yes. It is a good sign that she expresses her emotions.
she reacts to with anger/annoyance. Can anyone explain this?
Yes. She is a woman. Let her express her emotions without judgement. Just understand her.
It seems like she is mad that I’m changing when she has already decided to get out of the R. Is that pretty typical?
Typical
Hey guys, just doing a little thinking out loud:
I was reading another thread. The idea on the thread were that if the WaW is leaving an LBS who truly wasn’t bad to her and she has no interest in making things work, she must be WW and probably involved with OM. Unless she has a strong reason to leave such as abuse or real mistreatment, not the typical WaW complaints (not enough time together, not enough affection, busy with work) then she should have some urge to not break up the family.
This is just an idea that supports my W is wayward. I remember talking to her just 6 months ago about a couple we know getting divorced. Her moral opinion on that was “people should work on the problems in their marriage. I could never just give up like that”. And here we are 6 months later with her preparing to move out in a few weeks.
It just shows that this isn’t the W I knew previously who had strong morals of family and lasting marriage. I have suspected an EA and while she has done well to cover it up, I feel there must be things going on behind the scene that I know nothing about.
I told my best friend who is moving in with me after my W and MIL move out, about the situation. His response was “it almost seems like something is missing.” Like the story and path of events just don’t add up. The W I used to know was very faithful and loyal to me. There was an occasion when we had just started hanging out after our first breakup, where some guy was trying to get with her. We weren’t officially dating at the time so my opinion of it was, you can talk to whoever you want since we aren’t dating. She took the initiative to stop talking to this guy and even told him, “I can’t be talking to you anymore because it may hurt my chances having an R with Hallzy.
So if she is involved in an EA at the moment it is far from her normal moral compass and she must be wayward. My guess is she wants to move out to be able to see how things go with the mystery OM. I’m hoping some light will be shed on this in the future but it is out of my hands. I’m just gonna focus on myself and my son and see where things go.
Another quick update,
Got home early and noticed W left her diaper bag on our front entrance key table where I put my keys/wallet everyday without fail. She has NEVER put it there and usually always has it in her car. It’s a small table so it’s kinda ridiculous to put a large bag onto of it.
She left the side pocket open and I snooped a little (shame on me I know but it was right there). In the open pocket I found a divorce attorneys card. She seemed like she had t seen one a week ago so maybe she saw one after I told her I had seen a lawyer. Wondering what the lawyer said but I know divorce attorneys love to push divorce to make their money.
Anyway, she must have left the bag on the table on purpose hoping I would find the card. Am I sounding crazy? Haha oh wel, I’m not going to mention it to her and I’m gonna try not to think about it. Just wanted to journal about the situation. More later,
Thanks
Someone said here that 99% of WAW'S are WW's. I know it is advisable that we are looking for behavioral changes rather than red flag signs that can possibly misconstrued. But who can compile a really good conclusive list based on their experiences? There are a lot of subtle behavioral changes that I've noticed over time, but still hard to confirm. I know every sich and person is different. Im looking for common patterns, scripted b.s. etc. Not that Im focused on the WAW. I just want to learn what else to look for in case I ever encounter it in future again. I've had plenty of experience sniffing them out before, but want to get better at learning the behaviors. Im convinced that these "justification" lists for leaving, the turning cold, and all of the "too little too late" stuff maybe legit, but all that resentment it almost seems intentional for not only justifying their behavior, but to intentionally push the LBS away out of guilt. I sometimes wonder, how much is good enough for someone?
Im convinced that these "justification" lists for leaving, the turning cold, and all of the "too little too late" stuff maybe legit, but all that resentment it almost seems intentional for not only justifying their behavior, but to intentionally push the LBS away out of guilt. I sometimes wonder, how much is good enough for someone?
Interesting point IHCLACS, my W had sooo much resentment the few weeks around BD she wouldn’t even talk to me.
So I need some help, some drastic changes but I’ll get into that after my question. The W asked me to go shopping with her later to get stuff for our S. I am inclined to say yes as my Son is my top priority. She also asked me to go to lunch with her and our son at one of our favorite restaurants. I told her I would think about it. Do you guys think I should be doing stuff like this once in a while or no?
Okay so journaling last night which was very interesting. Incoming huge wall of text. If you have been keeping up with my sitch I have spoken about how I have been DBing quite well: no R talks, GAL, PMA, 180s, the works. I believe I have done great at DBing the past few weeks. I haven’t been starting conversations but when W starts one I really give her my attention and validate when I can. She has gone from not saying 4 sentences to me a day around BD to constantly talking to me about everything.
I have been doing a ton of work on the house as part of GAL. This is also a 180 as I was somewhat lazy before and would leave something broken or needing to be done for weeks. Yesterday I spent a ton of time working in the backyard. A couple days ago a tile in our bathroom broke, my W cut her toe on it and was bleeding a lot. I removed, replaced and put new grout around it within the next day. We also had some support planks break on one side of the bed. I replaced those as well.
So yesterday my W got home from work. I was in my MBR with my S. It was almost his bed time so we were just hanging out. She came in an initiated conversation about her day. We joked around a bit and it was a pleasant chat. As I sat on the edge of the bed where the planks had been previously broken W told me not to sit there because the bed was “broken” on that side. I responded that I had fixed it already. This is a big 180 too because usually I wouldn’t take initiative and do stuff without being asked first so I think she was really surprised.
She then said, “Who are you? You are like a whole new man.” I couldn’t help smiling at this with how much effort I have been putting into bettering myself. It felt good hearing that. I followed up with, “I’m not sure what you mean?”
She continued saying how I do all this stuff now and everything I do now differently. I played it off cool and said, “speaking of doing stuff, don’t step on that tile, I put the grout around and it’s drying”.
I told her I had a hockey game in a day and if she could watch our S. She responded that she would take our S to my game. (She hates hockey and has been to like 1 of my games in the past year so this was strange.). She asked if I wanted them to go. I didn’t seem overly interested and said, “sure you can go if you want”.
We then talked about how I signed up for swim class with our S (180). She said that she wanted to go with us. She then went on to say that she still wants to do things as a family. She worded it “if we don’t get back together I still want to do stuff with S as a family.” She seemed certain that we wouldn’t have a chance at R a few weeks ago. This seems like an improvement that she could be considering R. I responded that “it would be weird for us to do family stuff if we weren’t together”. She then told a story of a friends parents who even though were divorced they spent time as a family. I sort of ended the talk there because I already made it clear I wasn’t really into that.
Once I put my son to bed, W and I drank some beers and watch some stuff on Netflix. We had a ton of conversation and laughing. It really felt like how things were years ago. She seemed super into me. She was being very flirtatious (kept grabbing my arms feeling my muscles, trying to tickle me, play fighting/hitting. At one point she straddled me on the bed. She then said “you wish”. I responded, “what do you mean you wish, you are the one on top of me”. I reciprocated the flirting but did not initiate or elevate.
Usually I would try to escalate this to s*x but as a 180 I just went to bed. Super weird having her be all over me and so interested when just over a month ago she seemed to hate my guts. This morning she was super pleasant, talking a lot to me and kept interrupting me getting ready for work to talk. This was when she asked me to go shopping with her this afternoon and if I wanted to get lunch with her after I get off work.
I feel like things are going well, but I’m not going to get my hopes up. I’m gonna keep doing my thing until she puts R on the table or we get a D. Any input is appreciated and thanks for reading my sitch. More later
Keep doing what you are doing. Although some might advise you differently on here, it's ultimately up to you. As far as still doing things as a family "seperated" still on IHS. I've attempted to try the "lets do things together as a family still" on W's birthday previously. It was met with great receptivity and she did enjoy the thoughtfulness I put into it. But there's something that I noticed from the pictures. I was so in my head, and not present. Even after doing a few family dinners, and activities out here and there, I am still "friend zoned" (Not a place a man should ever be with his W out of self respect IMO.) This is an area I've really been struggling with internally, not because of her, (well actually yeah because of her.) But because of S1. I have no problem hanging around with my in-laws and her family individually, and I've made myself clear on that to them, but I choose not to get involved with family functions that I am still invited to by W. I choose that for several reasons. I know this sounds punitive of me and I'm the one that's losing out on spending time with my son, and it breaks my heart.
I have decided that I'm not ready to "play family" just because they are at that point ahead of us, and they are past the point of not loving you anymore, but want to keep up the social appearances, still having you as plan b, and for the sake of the children. What she is trying to say is, ( I like you as a friend, I would think you would make a good co-parent, a good father, everyone misses you, and other people can make it work so I can make it work, so why can't we?) So again this all comes down to a matter of personal preference, what you can handle emotionally and what your principles are. For now, where I am at, I say let them feel the loss of you before the S becomes real, even if it is at the expense of spending time with your children. Be there for your children on your own time and in your own capacity 100% though.
Perhaps in time as I detach a little further, I will pick and choose which special occasions to attend, and put differences aside. I'm still debating what to do about Mother's Day coming up.
My W is out for the weekend this weekend at BIL and her nieces Bday party. I miss my S1 terribly and again its breaking my heart.
Even though things have deteriorated to the point where we're both at 95%.where we want the D. W is forcing me to sell the house to move on with her life, and IMO, things have gotten so petty with the division of things, that I actually want to keep things seperate now. I can't nice her back, mean her back, etc. Other than a hug or two here and there, I haven't touched my w in 5 months. I really don't know if by doing this it is helping me or hurting me, but I need to stand on that principle that, if she's going to take things that far, then im going to act as if separated, and not give her the best of both worlds.
I want you to keep in mind that as they go down the process of moving away from you, even though they say they don't, they will be influenced by outside influences on what post S or D looks like, or what they want it to look like. ( friends, family, articles on internet, etc.) She went cold because she doesn't see a future with you, for whatever reason weather it be emotional, physical, behavioral, habitual, etc. So they are gauging things based on their current feelings, and can't make up their minds, but have acted enough to move things forward and BD us. Hence limbo land.
You seem like you have a pretty good handle on things. If she's going to have that attitude towards sex though, and flirting, to me it seems nothing more than an ego validation, that she still "has it" and is manipulating to gauge if you are plan b. Don't give into her BS temp checks or manipulation. But if you do decide to escalate, make sure you make it clear that it didn't mean anything. Hold your position until full R is on the table. When women are emotionally and physically attracted to you, sex is on the table. If they are not fully, they will use it to get what they want or manipulate you, to soften you up for another occasion for something they want, or just for their own validation.
Coming back around to behaviors and justifications. I wish "reading the signs" were as black and white for the reasons WAW'S or WAW'S leave MR. I'm sure most wives look at the marriage, not only for just love, but a total package. They test for things like, is he secure, does he provide, is he a good father, is he responsible, is he social, does he spend enough time with me, and family, are we still compatible? How does he make me feel?etc, etc... I can't help but identify with, that most of these women that are WAW kind of resonate to the Janet Jackson song "What Have You Done For Me Lately". Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm wrong in my assessment and attitude. Some people here will 2x4 me and say I don't have enough empathy for women, their position situation and feelings, and how they got here in the first place. Quite the contrary. I do understand how they got here, and I do empathize with it. It's called having unresolved problems, and I get it. Every day more and more I start to experience what they experience before me, and I can understand their position and mindset. But me? Personally?... It still doesn't justify breaking up a M and family. But if they want to move on because their own independent future looks brighter to them than the M. Then I say have at it. I don't want someone that doesn't want me for life, attributes, faults and all. They want to validate all the feelings and reasons through IC, then I say let them, you can't control how they feel and why. So why worry about it? Just be aware of it. You do you, and make improvements for you. As far as the WW. Well y'all know it's limmerace and they are in Rebellion
There is one thing I am noticing though. With myself and in other people's situations. They will either take the initiative to make changes for themselves, and fail on the commitment end of those changes, or, they expect us to do all the changes while they remain the same, as if they are a God's gift to us. The latter scenario I find to be very selfish and arrogant, whether they want to admit it to themselves, or us, or not. I don't think that they realize, just as much as we don't realize, just how much sacrifice us men make for them, and for some, how much sacrifice they make as women. Just something to be aware of.
Keep doing what you are doing. Although some might advise you differently on here, it's ultimately up to you. As far as still doing things as a family "seperated" still on IHS.
Hey IHCLACS thanks for all the info. I am not all the way caught up with you sitch but am getting there. Yeah I agree with you, when she actually moves out in 2 weeks I do not plan on spending “family time” with her. I see that as cake eating. It was her idea to break up our family and a repercussion of this is no more family time. Obviously I want to do things for my son, but I am not going to be a happy family with a W who doesn’t want to be with me.
I am still "friend zoned" (Not a place a man should ever be with his W out of self respect IMO.)
Yeah that feeling [censored]. In my sitch currently I wouldn’t say I’m exactly friend zoned but it is a weird limbo of some sort. She has expressed she wants me around co parenting. We are having friendly conversations. But there has been a lot of flirting and even some sexual interactions lately. This was all non existent before I started DBing. If things continue toward friend zone, I think I would pull way back as I am not interested in being a friend.
You seem like you have a pretty good handle on things. If she's going to have that attitude towards sex though, and flirting, to me it seems nothing more than an ego validation, that she still "has it" and is manipulating to gauge if you are plan b. Don't give into her BS temp checks or manipulation. But if you do decide to escalate, make sure you make it clear that it didn't mean anything.
Interesting points. Yeah I assumed most of this was a temp check. I think she may be considering me as a back up plan because her actions toward me have changed alot since I started DBing. Around BD I think I’m her mind, she viewed us as never going to work out, or that we would never have R again. Now that I have implemented all these 180s and PMA she has been making comments such as, “you are like a whole new man now”. I think she is coming around to the idea that I could be her plan B. Although I see it as progress, I definitely do not want to be anyone’s plan B.
Coming back around to behaviors and justifications. I wish "reading the signs" were as black and white for the reasons WAW'S or WAW'S leave MR. I'm sure most wives look at the marriage, not only for just love, but a total package. They test for things like, is he secure, does he provide, is he a good father, is he responsible, is he social, does he spend enough time with me, and family, are we still compatible?
Yeah you are absolutely right. I think over our M I went from checking off all of her boxes to slowly losing check marks one by one. Eventually she realized how I was not checking these wants and needs of hers off and decided life would be better without me. 180s are great in this regard because it shows through actions that I can meet her expectations. Even if we do not R, I am already feeling like such a better version of myself and I feel this will really help me in the future.
There is one thing I am noticing though. With myself and in other people's situations. They will either take the initiative to make changes for themselves, and fail on the commitment end of those changes, or, they expect us to do all the changes while they remain the same, as if they are a God's gift to us. The latter scenario I find to be very selfish and arrogant, whether they want to admit it to themselves, or us, or not. I don't think that they realize, just as much as we don't realize, just how much sacrifice us men make for them, and for some, how much sacrifice they make as women. Just something to be aware of.
I think about this a lot. Although I mainly blame myself for the deterioration of our M, I know she absolutely has things she needs to work on and change too. There was a situation the other night that really shed the light on this for me: W and I were in bed drinking some beers. She had set her beer on the bed. I was actually laying the opposite direction from her and as I moved to lay the same direction as her, the bed was shaken and her beer spilled.
She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this.
Haley quote : She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this. End quote
Halzy good for you in enforcing that boundary. Its situations like these I am learning to handle differently as of last week. Here is a actual text from last week. W unintentionally misued her words in a text about a scheduling issue with S1 and her Dr's appointment last week. Granted i could have handled the situation a little bit better, but think I did pretty good.
She said "I watched you put it in your phone unless you were lying." She didn't mean it to sound accusatory, but she was also under the impresion I was screwing with her for not remembering. She didn't clearly give me an exact date, just mention, and she updated the whiteboard one day prior. I agreed on one thing she said about the trade/swap of days.
My response was:
"Either way more importantly I don't like the words lying or being accused of lying."
"What if I said to you? "Well unless you were lying?" How would you feel? How would you receive that?"
W:You're right, I would be offended
W:I'm sorry for wording it that way, I can see how you could be offended.
I could put the whole text conversatation here but it would just take too long.
That was probably the first time in a very long time I have gotten an apology from her. Otherwise its been about her, her, her, her unhappiness, her goals, and objectives, her reasons of all the things im to blame for.
The purpose of this dynamic again is two fold. It creates a boundary, nips a reaction in the bud, and it puts the mirror back on them in realizing their treatment torwards you, without you becoming reactive.
Pay attn to it and use it.
I think about this a lot. Although I mainly blame myself for the deterioration of our M, I know she absolutely has things she needs to work on and change too. There was a situation the other night that really shed the light on this for me: W and I were in bed drinking some beers. She had set her beer on the bed. I was actually laying the opposite direction from her and as I moved to lay the same direction as her, the bed was shaken and her beer spilled.
She was furious that I had moved and in doing so her beer spilled on the bed. She crossed a boundary I have made clear and was talking to me angrily and with disrespect. About how it was all my fault. I told her not to talk to me like that and that she shouldn’t have put the beer on the bed in the first place.
This got me thinking, if the roles of this situation were reversed, how would I have reacted? I am positive that I would take the blame for putting an open can on the bed and would have apologized and cleaned it. Her behavior in this situation was unacceptable to me. I haven’t really seen any changes for the better in her yet. I really hope she is able to look inward and improve herself because after this situation I was really thinking that I deserve better than this.
Your situation is still very young. One of the key principles of Divorce Remedy is that if you focus on changing yourself, you can change your relationship, and you've already seen evidence that your interactions are changing as your behavior changes.
Personally, I feel that marriage is rarely 50-50. Sometimes one spouse is pouring more into the relationship than the other, and then in another season of life, it will be the other spouse giving more. It's expected that if a spouse is not sure they want to be in the marriage, they might not be interested in improving as a spouse. Again, it goes back to DR. One spouse can make a difference, even if the other isn't interested in working on things.
For me, there are two questions spouses should ask:
1. Am I committed to this marriage and to my vows?
2. Do have the emotional strength to stay in this marriage without damaging the core of who I am? (Living with a spouse who has a mental illness, or is highly critical, or struggles with addition can sometimes exceed the capacity that the other spouse has to deal with trouble and start to take down the other spouse. Leaving might be necessary in those cases.)
If the answers to those two questions are Yes, then stop worrying about whether your spouse is changing. Focus on improving yourself and your own relationship skills and being the best spouse you can be.
That doesn't mean pursuing when pursuit isn't welcome, or becoming a doormat, or being a Mr. Nice Guy. It means healthy emotional detachment, GAL, 180s, validation, just without an expectation that just because you are ready to work on the marriage now, that your spouse has to have the same timing. Maybe there has been (or will be) a time when she is working on it and you aren't.
Even now, years past our crisis, I find that if I start focusing on this thing my husband said or that thing he did, our marriage gets bumpy, whereas if I turn that energy to working on improving my own behaviors as a spouse, things get better. Stay on your side of the street.
(As for sex, in the absence of an affair, and as long as she is living in the house with you, I wouldn't avoid sex if she seems receptive. Sex and touch (if welcomed!) release hormones that encourage bonding.)
I was reading another thread. The idea on the thread were that if the WaW is leaving an LBS who truly wasn’t bad to her and she has no interest in making things work, she must be WW and probably involved with OM. Unless she has a strong reason to leave such as abuse or real mistreatment, not the typical WaW complaints (not enough time together, not enough affection, busy with work) then she should have some urge to not break up the family.
This is just an idea that supports my W is wayward. I remember talking to her just 6 months ago about a couple we know getting divorced. Her moral opinion on that was “people should work on the problems in their marriage. I could never just give up like that”. And here we are 6 months later with her preparing to move out in a few weeks.
It just shows that this isn’t the W I knew previously who had strong morals of family and lasting marriage. I have suspected an EA and while she has done well to cover it up, I feel there must be things going on behind the scene that I know nothing about.
Hallzy, reading up on your sitch, my WW was the same way. Throughout our MR she said D was never an option, it went against everything she believed in. Last year when her recently divorced BFF was going through the process, she would send her texts saying you need to do everything you can to work it out, you owe it to yourselves to reconcile after 20 years together, etc. Perhaps this was the mindset in good times, but when bad times hit, that all goes out the window and they can become hypocrites.
In my sitch the EA with her co-worker started last August followed by BD in early November followed by multiple PAs with OM continuing today. I would assume an affair for a person’s morals to change so rapidly. The WW becomes addicted to the fantasy and exciting feelings shared with the AP and moves swiftly to end the MR due to lust and selfish desires.
Hang in there and keep DBing, hopefully your 180s are noticed and she makes the right choice, but keep your expectations low.
Your situation is still very young. One of the key principles of Divorce Remedy is that if you focus on changing yourself, you can change your relationship, and you've already seen evidence that your interactions are changing as your behavior changes.
Personally, I feel that marriage is rarely 50-50. Sometimes one spouse is pouring more into the relationship than the other, and then in another season of life, it will be the other spouse giving more. It's expected that if a spouse is not sure they want to be in the marriage, they might not be interested in improving as a spouse. Again, it goes back to DR. One spouse can make a difference, even if the other isn't interested in working on things.
Thanks for the input Rose,
Yes you are right, I feel that I have already seen some really positive changes after I have been working on myself. I wish I had more time before we separate. W and MIL will be moving out in 2 weeks now. During most of our M, my W was the one who put the most work into the M. Now it is me who is trying to make a difference as you said.
Even now, years past our crisis, I find that if I start focusing on this thing my husband said or that thing he did, our marriage gets bumpy, whereas if I turn that energy to working on improving my own behaviors as a spouse, things get better. Stay on your side of the street.
(As for sex, in the absence of an affair, and as long as she is living in the house with you, I wouldn't avoid sex if she seems receptive. Sex and touch (if welcomed!) release hormones that encourage bonding.)
You are right Rose. I should just be focusing on improving myself at this point and not worrying about if she will change. Things have already gotten somewhat better since I started working on myself. In regards to the touch, we have been cuddling in bed most nights. Great improvement compared to BD when she would recoil from any touch.
On another note: I’m having some trouble. During our M, my W would always be asking me for favors, “can you grab that for me, can you do this”. Very frequently. I would do some things for her but I didn’t want to feel whipped or appear weak so many times I would tell her to get it herself or do it herself.
Looking back I feel she really didn’t like this. When I would respond do it herself she probably thought, wow he doesn’t care about me enough to even get me a cup if water. The other day she was complaining about how dirty her car was.
My MIL said, “we can send hallsy to the car wash”. (MIL is always around and always getting involved in our personal conversations which is a whole other issue in itself). My W responded “he would never do something like that for me”.
So my dilemma: I don’t want to be a doormat for her. But during the M I was refusing to do things for her that I think she really wanted from me. Previously if she asked me to do something, even if I did it I would complain or give her attitude. I have really done a 180 on this and am helping within reason (said no to helping her move out and build furniture in her new apartment). But where do I draw the line in doing favors to avoid being a doormat?
Small update: Wife has gotten upset with me over trivial stuff a few times the last few days. Shut her down for crossing a boundary once and the other times just acted like it didn’t bother me at all. She has made a comment about how I am “a whole new man” a few times this week. She has also complained about changes I have made since BD a few times saying things like “it’s frustrating that now you care about new clothes” among other things.
She ended up canceling the shopping trip she had planned stating “I can’t make it, go without me”. Which I did but as I was finishing she called me asking if I had gone yet and if I could get her something. She also never brought up going to our favorite restaurant after initially saying that we should go. She canceled going to my hockey game yesterday because she “didn’t want to take the time to get ready to go” but she promised she would go next week. I have been playing it off like I could care less that she canceled on me although when she asked if I wanted her and my S to go to my hockey game, I said yes.
That’s it for now, thanks.
Hallzy, reading up on your sitch, my WW was the same way. Throughout our MR she said D was never an option, it went against everything she believed in. Last year when her recently divorced BFF was going through the process, she would send her texts saying you need to do everything you can to work it out, you owe it to yourselves to reconcile after 20 years together, etc. Perhaps this was the mindset in good times, but when bad times hit, that all goes out the window and they can become hypocrites.
Hey Curtis, sorry didn’t see you post until now. I haven’t fully caught up with your sitch but I have read a great deal of it. Seems so absurd to me that these WWs get such crazy fantasies in their head that they up and leave a family and a great husband. From what I’ve read of your sitch you are a great guy and are seriously vested in making the M work and are very dedicated to being a good father. It goes to show that when they become WW all logic and reasoning goes out the window.
I keep finding myself wanting to deny all the red flags I’ve seen that point toward my WW having an EA because she was so loyal and morally right before our sitch started. And while I don’t have evidence and have since stopped looking for evidence due to DBing, I feel that all the signs are there. When I get that denial in my mind I have to remind myself that the old W I knew is gone, replaced by a selfish being who is chasing fantasies and new feelings.
Time for another update/some questions
So a few small events over the past day or so,
W seemed very interested in me/very pursuing. I got home from work yesterday, my S was sleeping so I got busy with some projects in the yard I’m working on. Came back inside and W was eating dinner with my S in the kitchen. I bbqed my meal and went to eat in the living room.
W said “come here, don’t you want to eat as a family.”
Me: We aren’t going to be a family in 2 weeks (when she moves out).
W: yes we will still be a family!
Me: No we will be 2 separate house holds, that isn’t a family.
I started to walk away after giving my S some attention.
W: come sit down and eat with us!
Me: would you like that?
W: yes I would
I sat, she talked about her day. I did some good active listening and some validation. I then talked about my day and she was surprisingly interested. I’m not reading into it. We all went to the living room after dinner. W began trying to touch me. I would pull away as I felt as she wasn’t being genuine or was just temp checking. This caused her to go into hardcore pursuit where she kept following me trying to touch me.
I gave her a look like what are you doing. W: “I’m just trying to bother you”. She then asked for me to massage her legs to which I replied “my lower back is pretty sore from house work, I’ll massage you if you massage me.” She said maybe later, obvious temp check.
I received a dresser in the mail as I need more space for all my new clothes. W said “you got yourself a new dresser to build but won’t build me one?” I replied that no I wouldn’t help my W move out and build furniture for her separation apartment. She made a comment something like “you are still going to be my partner”. Didn’t really react to this.
We went to bed and, before our sitch she could only fall asleep if she touches me with part of her body (she has a lot of anxiety problems and I have been her rock and security for many years.). Since BD she would fall asleep on edge of bed but last few nights she has fallen asleep while touching me, like before our Sitch. We also cuddle in the middle of the night.
My question is in regards to respect. I feel as if she has respect for me. Early after BD she went out drinking till 2am. Upon her coming home I made it clear this was unacceptable to me and that I would leave the MR if she did it again. I am not controlling at all and think she needs to get out of the house more and spend more time with friends as I do, but binge drinking till 2am when we have a baby at home is absolutely unacceptable to me. After I had a stern boundary talk with her about it, she hasn’t done it since.
Early after BD I informed her that if I found out she was having an affair, EA or PA that I would leave the MR. I also have no trouble enforcing boundaries on if she talks to me disrespectfully which has only happened a handful of times since BD.
I was reading another thread that said that the LBS should be very strict and not put up with any BS of the WW if she is disrespectful. Stuff like kicking her out of MBR. I feel that my W has gained some respect back for me and hasn’t been acting very disrespectful at all. This builds up leads to my question: Should I prematurely pack all of the pictures of us that are on the wall? I will not keep them up after she moves out. I know I shouldn’t be doing things to get a reaction but I feel like if I pack them up, she will get the message that I don’t need her and am okay with a life without her?
This builds up leads to my question: Should I prematurely pack all of the pictures of us that are on the wall? I will not keep them up after she moves out. I know I shouldn’t be doing things to get a reaction but I feel like if I pack them up, she will get the message that I don’t need her and am okay with a life without her?
I wouldn't, it is likely to look to her like you are trying to punish her. After she moves out it's your choice whether to do it or not. I took them down after S just because I couldn't handle the constant reminders of the happy M that didn't exist anymore.
I wouldn't, it is likely to look to her like you are trying to punish her. After she moves out it's your choice whether to do it or not. I took them down after S just because I couldn't handle the constant reminders of the happy M that didn't exist anymore.
Fair enough, I will just ignore them until she moves out before taking them down, thanks.
It seems like my sitch went from my W thinking she would never have an R with me again, to her now considering me a back up plan or something along that line. I guess this is progress but I don’t like being considered a plan B. Is the best course of plan to continue to detatch? I’ve read that when the WW finally starts losing the LBS is when they can snap out of their fog? I understand this doesn’t happen in every sitch, thanks.
It seems like my sitch went from my W thinking she would never have an R with me again, to her now considering me a back up plan or something along that line. I guess this is progress but I don’t like being considered a plan B. Is the best course of plan to continue to detatch?
Definitely. Don't be cold and indifferent, the key is to lovingly detach. Sandi's rules are a great template on how to behave. You give her time and space but remain cordial and polite. You listen and validate when she wants to talk. But you don't pursue or look for reasons to be in her face all the time. And yes it is normal for a WAS to start to reach out when the LBS starts to detach.
I’ve read that when the WW finally starts losing the LBS is when they can snap out of their fog? I understand this doesn’t happen in every sitch, thanks.
It's really unusual for a WAS to just snap out of it, and even when they do it's after some time has passed. Steve's is about the fastest turnaround I've seen, usually it takes at least a year. So yes what you say is true, but it takes a long time for them to feel like they are losing the LBS. Not weeks or months, much longer. And the LBS can't fake it, they have to really, genuinely be uninterested before it starts to affect the WAS.
Hey daily update and another question:
Today I did another house project and planted some new plants and finished building my new dresser after work. W came home as I was working outside and we had some playful making fun of each other banter. She made a comment about how what I was doing was “very interesting. This is all just very interesting”. She has said this often lately and I believe it is in regards to all my 180s. Seems she is still skeptical at times or something.
We had swim class with our S. I don’t think I got into this but a few days ago I told my W that I had bought swim lessons on a separate account than hers and intended to take him without her. She felt very strongly that she wanted to be involved in this as a family. So anyway we signed up for one today and she went with me.
Swim class went well and a few times our son waved to her. (I go in the pool with him, W refuses) A lot of the time she was glued to her phone. Side note: she definitely has some sort of smart phone addiction. This is nothing new so I’m not insinuating she was texting OM or anything. It normally doesn’t bother me, but as I have really stepped up the amount of parenting I do, I am starting to realize how much she focuses on her phone over our son. Like come on it’s a 15 minute class, can’t you just enjoy your kid for a few minutes. I didn’t verbalize this to her it was just a thought.
After class I went to the front desk and solved some problem regarding our account. A 180 as previously I let my W handle most of the child related stuff. We were in the car heading home and W suggested we go shopping because S needed diapers. I agreed. We had a good conversation in the car.
At the store I employed 2 pretty big 180s for me. Previously I would rush through shopping. Whenever W wanted to stop and look at clothes or something I would become annoyed and say something like we don’t have time for this, let’s go. Today I was very patient and happily let her browse through a few sections. She asked my opinion on some clothes and I reacted positively.
The other big 180 was about footing the bill. I previously would be very shallow about funds. After a shopping trip like this I would expect my W to give me some money if I paid for the shopping bill. This I have come to realize is pretty ridiculous as I make far more money than she does and should be providing for my family without complaints. Especially when the majority of it was for my son. I did let my wife get a few small things and she seemed genuinely grateful.
As we got back into the car my W suggested that we go out to eat. Something that she brought up last week but didn’t follow through on. We haven’t had dinner out together since pre BD. I agreed that the food she suggested sounded good. She suggested we eat there but I told her I would prefer if we got it to go as I still needed to do a GAL workout. Also I know Michelle said to not seem overly available and accept every invitation so after shopping together I felt this was okay. We got food (I paid again without a complaint) and we had a nice conversation while waiting for our order.
So yeah seemed like a good night and actually the most normal I have felt with her since BD. It seems that things have improved quite a lot since BD. I just wish I had more time. I think my W jumped the gun with this S. If she didn’t have her mom living with us I don’t think her S plan would have worked out so smoothly because there is no way she could afford to move out without her mom. Oh well that’s how it is and I have to deal with it.
So my question is in regards to LRT. I am almost done with DR book. Michele discusses using LRT when physically separated from W. But she also describes that after performing LRT you may get to a point where things are improving and things are going better with the spouse.
I kind of feel that I am already at a better place with my W after 180s, validation, GAL and am wondering if I go LRT all of a sudden the day she moves out this could be a negative to the progress I have already seen. Things are night and day from BD to now. We are having good conversations, joking around, doing things together we did before BD, interacting with physical touch. A lot of things still need to be improved but I am concerned that if I go LRT after the S it could be a setback.
Does anyone know the part of DR I am referring to where Michelle discusses things getting better and refers to it as the “second possible response” to LRT. Granted I haven’t done LRT yet but what she describes seems similar to my current sitch. Any advice would be appreciated.
I don't believe you should go LRT. It is the last thing to try if all else fails. Sounds like things are moving int the right direction.
I am following loosely. Sounds like no OM. Correct? Keep focused on being "attractive". Lead your W through this.
I don't believe you should go LRT. It is the last thing to try if all else fails. Sounds like things are moving int the right direction.
I am following loosely. Sounds like no OM. Correct? Keep focused on being "attractive". Lead your W through this.
Thanks for the replies ready. Not the time for LRT got it. In regards to OM I’m not really sure. I’m leaning towards no. She would have to be insanely undercover about it at this point. I think I would have found something the few times I’ve checked her phone. I am no longer snooping at this point though.
I will continue on the course I am taking. I need to hurry up and finish DR but I feel like I’ve read the parts that apply to me the most at the moment. Things do seem to be improving between us. But I am wary about being friend zoned. Should I assume because we are cuddling and have had a few sexual encounters that I am not friend zoned? Also is there even any action the LBS can do to get out of the friend zone? Just curious.
Michele stated that you use the LRT when the WAS says they want a divorce and you think they mean it. The LRT is pretty simple IMO so what part of it do you think you should hold off on? I think you'll be LRT'ing by default.
LRT means:
- stop pursuing
-GAL
-wait and see
So you'll be LRT when she moves out unless you plan on pursuing, not GAL, or not waiting/filing. It will be good for you in many ways. What pursuit has worked so far? It seems like you have had some positives so far so I'm not saying you need to do LRT either.
Should I assume because we are cuddling and have had a few sexual encounters that I am not friend zoned? Also is there even any action the LBS can do to get out of the friend zone? Just curious.
Do some research and learn some new "skills" to surprise her the next time you are intimate.
I am always trying to "surprise" my lady. Example: If you were always the one to cross the finish line first, then make sure she crosses first. Or maybe two times before you do.
Hi ovrrnbw,
So from what I read Michelle says to use LRT if:
1:spouse says they want divorce
2:you and spouse are physically separated
I forgot the third honestly.
So yes if my W and I separate, which is the plan in a week, then per Michelle I should LRT.
She then goes onto talk about the 3 reactions you may get from doing LRT. The second outcome she talks about progress that includes an improvement in your sitch such as: improved communication, your spouse showing interest, your spouse talking about a future together, and a few other things.
From what I understand LRT is a technique that involves basically no contact with your spouse. That is not where I am now as we still live together and by using other DB techniques my sitch has already improved a bit. Some of the things Michelle mentions could happen In the second outcome of LRT are already happening in my sitch before I have started LRT. So I am just concerned about reducing my contact once we separate if I am seeing positive changes from some interactions.
I have not been pursuing, and do not plan on it. From my understanding LRT seems far less involved and much harsher than the DBing I have done already?
Oh and those things you listed as LRT: Don’t pursue, GAL and detach I have already been doing. I was under the impression that LRT was a step beyond typical DBing?
Therefore I was confused as to if I should go LRT if I am already seeing positive changes before going LRT. Or is it because we are separating that I should go LRT despite the positive changes I have seen already?
Thank you
New Thread:
Soon to separate, Possible WAW